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McCain Campaign Uses Spider/Diff Against Obama

Vote McCain in 2008! writes "McCain's campaign is doing everything it can to erase Obama's online advantage, this time they ambushed Obama by detecting edits to his website when he updated some of his policy positions. This isn't the first time the Republicans have shown up the Democrats with their web savvy — you may remember the previous reports about the Republican Web 2.0 Consultants and their online campaigning game. This just proves that old Republicans can learn new tricks." Assuming the spider adheres to robots.txt, this is clever and well done.

191 of 1,171 comments (clear)

  1. New Meme by clang_jangle · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Okay, you can mod me OT if you want, but as the submitter chose to call himself Vote McCain in 2008! I'm taking license here. Apologies to those who still find it OT...
    I hear one definition of insanity is repeating the same action while expecting a different result each time. How many times have we thrown our votes away on the major party candidates only to get the same old status quo, regardless of the promises made? It's high time we the people just say no to the corrupt two party system. It's time we got off our lazy asses and learn about the alternatives available outside the corporate-approved "choice" spoon-fed to us by Big Media. Oh sure, probably we'll get either McCain or Obama this time, but if enough people vote outside the box it will encourage others to do the same. Maybe we can even take back our government at some point. But it'll never happen by voting for one of the two "approved" candidates. We need a new meme -- don't throw your vote away. Don't waste your vote on the Republicrats!
    /soapbox rant

    --
    Caveat Utilitor
    1. Re:New Meme by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I hear one definition of insanity is repeating the same action while expecting a different result each time.

      Wait, so if I roll a bunch of dice, I should actually expect them to come up the same every time? Maybe those superstitions about lucky dice or lucky numbers are actually on to something...

    2. Re:New Meme by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I agree with you! I'm typically Republican, but not a fan of McCain. I'm big enough to think if the Democrats brought someone to the table that I could believe in, I would vote for him. There's just to many unknowns with Obama, to many red flags.

      Why not pencil in Powell as a candidate on the ballet?!

    3. Re:New Meme by neomunk · · Score: 5, Funny

      I mean, you're trying to be cute, but if you roll the die a thousand times hoping that NEXT TIME it'll wash your dishes instead of providing the information on one of the die's faces, you've touched upon what the GP is talking about.

    4. Re:New Meme by Ihlosi · · Score: 5, Funny
      I hear one definition of insanity is repeating the same action while expecting a different result each time.

      I knew it: Quantum physics and statistics are insanity.

    5. Re:New Meme by Strangely+Familiar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unfortunately, while you're busy forming a great new party, the party most sympathetic to your new party's ideals is getting drained and beaten. You cut off your nose despite your face. No, the time for reform is in the primary election season. If you want to make a difference, get active during the primaries. Because of relatively low voter participation, your vote will count 10x. Your efforts (contributions, editorials, canvassing) count even more. Pick a Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich then, and support him early. That will make a real difference. Otherwise, make sure you're enjoying yourself chasing the windmills, because otherwise the exercise will be pointless.

      --
      Join the IParty!
    6. Re:New Meme by TriezGamer · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wrong interpretation of the word different. In this case, different referrs to 'different from previous results'. This requires some established results before hand -- that is, the dice would come up anything from 1 to 6. The crazy would be rolling them expecting that you will eventually get a 7. (assuming 6-sided die)

    7. Re:New Meme by Hatta · · Score: 5, Informative

      Why not pencil in Powell as a candidate on the ballet?!

      Because he was complicit in misleading the public into the Iraq war.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    8. Re:New Meme by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I hear one definition of insanity is repeating the same action while expecting a different result each time.

      So, how many times have you backed a third-party candidate? Has the result changed yet?

    9. Re:New Meme by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Informative

      You cut off your nose despite your face.

      No, you cut off your nose to spite your face.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    10. Re:New Meme by mpweasel · · Score: 3, Funny

      Why not pencil in Powell as a candidate on the ballet?!

      Because Powell can't dance as well as the other two?

    11. Re:New Meme by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      cut off your nose despite your face

      It's "cut off your nose to spite your face". At least you didn't use "you're".
      :)

    12. Re:New Meme by MyLongNickName · · Score: 5, Informative

      Am I the only person who clicked on the link (hyperlink behind "Vote McCain in 2008". It takes you to McCain food services. It was a joke, folks.

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    13. Re:New Meme by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Alright, so now we have the definition of 'different' down. But, I'm still having problems with the definition of 'is'

      Care to help me in this quest of pedantry?

    14. Re:New Meme by Tacvek · · Score: 3, Funny

      Brings back memories of the "Dole for Bananas" bumper stickers.

      --
      Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
    15. Re:New Meme by mrogers · · Score: 2, Funny

      I knew it: Quantum physics and statistics are insanity.

      Hey, that's not fair. Statistics is sane on average, it's just insane in every single instance.

    16. Re:New Meme by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Until we change our voting system to something like Instant Runoff voting, the large parties will never be beaten because voting for a 3rd party really is throwing away your vote.

      No, it really isn't. This is an infuriating bit of misinformation that needs to stop. The only thing that is throwing away your vote is not voting. Any vote, any vote at all, is not throwing your vote away. Period. More importantly, the only thing that keeps third parties from gaining power in this country is thinking like yours. We should get a different voting system, but barring that, people need to wake the fuck up and realize they're only shooting themselves in the foot by voting for "not that guy". Obama and McCain have clearly shown us that you're just voting for the same guy, with a different name.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    17. Re:New Meme by omnicron13 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Until we change our voting system to something like Instant Runoff voting, the large parties will never be beaten because voting for a 3rd party really is throwing away your vote.

      Another big impediment to changing the voting system is getting people to understand it. They are used to simple voting procedures. Now, say American Idol switched to Instant Runoff or some other voting system (implemented backwards, I suppose, for choosing losers instead of winners). People would immediately see the benefits and grow to trust it. In time, with much luck, the people will demand a change in voting procedures.

    18. Re:New Meme by The+Warlock · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Obama and McCain have clearly shown us that you're just voting for the same guy, with a different name.

      Really? Really? I've been listening to this tired meme for the past three elections. "Oh, Bush and Gore are just the same guy with a different name. Vote Nader." "Oh, Bush and Kerry are the same guy with a different name. Vote Badnarik." It wasn't true then and it isn't now. Really, if you can't see that there actually are substantative differences between the two front-runners, you're not paying any attention.

      --
      I've upped my standards, so up yours.
    19. Re:New Meme by aussie_a · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How many times have you not voted? Has the result changed yet?

    20. Re:New Meme by nomadic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I hear one definition of insanity is repeating the same action while expecting a different result each time. How many times have we thrown our votes away on the major party candidates only to get the same old status quo, regardless of the promises made?

      I voted for people I wanted in office. And you know what, just because they were members of a major political party, I really don't think I was throwing my vote away. And I've never voted for an independent candidate because I've never encountered one who I thought would do a good job.

      At a certain point in your life you have to start looking at things with a little more nuance. If you actually inform yourself about history you'll find that different presidents have taken drastically different actions in office. If either Gore or Kerry had won, we wouldn't be in Iraq. We just wouldn't. Now whether you support the war or are against it, I think you can agree that it's a pretty major event that has wide-ranging consequences both domestically and internationally.

      I'm not elderly but I'm not a kid anymore. I've voted in the past three presidential elections, and I've tried to educate myself about the candidates each time. I've also tried to educate myself about history and learn how different ideologies produced different leadership styles and choices, and how these choices affected our country. And I kind of resent having wild-eyes 19 year olds, who until a few months ago were spending all their mental energy hanging out in the mall, suddenly lecturing me on politics. If you don't understand the difference between politicians, teach yourself--don't just assume there is no difference.

    21. Re:New Meme by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, you're the one not paying attention if you don't see the striking similarities, which erase any differences that there might be. Let's recap: Obama voted for the FISA bill. In doing so, he showed that, as far as he's concerned, the rule of law applies in this country only when it's convenient. So, on one hand, we have McCain, who supports immunity (i.e., does not respect the rule of law we strive for). On the other hand, we have Obama, who claims to not support immunity, but really does support it as evidenced by his actions. So he, too, does not respect the rule of law. Not to mention the fact that both of them think that it's a good idea to wiretap people just on suspicions they might be a terrorists, and all the horrible precedent that sets.

      Both the candidates this year are completely worthless. If you can't see that, you're blind.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    22. Re:New Meme by The+Warlock · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm glad to see that two candidates eventually agreeing on a single bill makes them practically the same person.

      Man, I agree that the FISA thing was a bad decision, but don't turn into a one-issue voter.

      --
      I've upped my standards, so up yours.
    23. Re:New Meme by squiggleslash · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A great many people believe that it's important to use the power you have to influence events even if people will make the worst assumptions about you. If Powell was doing all he could behind the scenes to prevent a needless war, and did so knowing full well that everyone on the outside would assume he was part of the conspiracy to wage the needless war, then he has integrity, and he has my respect.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    24. Re:New Meme by Hatta · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is nothing that can excuse this. I don't care if Cheney took his family hostage, he had a duty to be honest to the American people and he failed.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    25. Re:New Meme by JoshJ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Furthermore, the article is ridiculously biased.
      At the end, the author closes with the line "If anything, the changes simply reflect that Obama is just another politician"- one of the most popular right-wing attacks on Obama.
      Take a look at the picture, again: http://blog.wired.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/07/15/mccain_obama_versionaista.jpg
      That's not some sort of scrub or replacing a sentence that made him look bad or backing down from a strong position. It's an outright replacement of an older quote with a newer one. If anything, it makes Obama's Iraq policy even clearer.
      At the bottom, it also shows there are two links that have been added as well.
      If there is some sort of "just another politician" type of coverup of an older policy going on at Obama's site, it's certainly not in the picture given in the article; and this makes me think that this is just whining: "He updated his page instead of leaving it static from January to November? HOW DARE HE?!"

    26. Re:New Meme by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      See, the problem with primaries (and with the whole US system) is that even at the primary stage, everyone votes strategically for the candidate they think can realistically move to the center and win the general election rather than the candidate they actually agree with. The whole US system has a fucking cancer of strategic voting -- vote Libertarian to Nader the Republicans, endorse Clinton to drag the party rightward, vote for the new FISA bill because it's just slightly better than total fascism even if it remains mostly fascism. YICH!

    27. Re:New Meme by squiggleslash · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm furious at Obama for his capitulation over FISA.

      However, to argue that FISA is the only issue and that the massive policy differences between Obama and McCain elsewhere somehow pale into insignificance because of that one issue is ridiculous.

      While our trust in Obama may be weakened by what's happened, we can at least expect him not to involve the US in needless wars, to make a good-faith attempt to extricate us from Iraq, to not appoint right-wing zealots to SCOTUS, to manage the economy in a way that doesn't involve populist tax cuts without reductions in spending, and to know enough about Foreign policy to understand that Czechoslovakia is not a country and therefore Russia does not export oil to it, and what the difference is between the various Muslim factions in the Middle East.

      Our trust in McCain should be at rock-bottom considering the massive number of flip-flops he's engaged in over the last few years, but we can trust him to continue - as he's promised - the occupation of Iraq. We can expect him to at least turn up the temperature in Iran, and quite possibly invade it needlessly rather than attempt to rebuild the pro-Democracy forces that were taking over Iran until the US invaded Iraq and started talking smack about Iran. We can expect him to continue Bush's deficit-growing policies. We can continue to expect him to muse about countries he wants to invade in public, mix up political groups, and work from an Atlas that apparently hasn't been updated since the end of the Cold War, if not earlier (I'm half expecting him to protest about the atrocities occurring in Rhodesia...) And we can expect him to appoint SCOTUS judges who care more about right-wing ideology, trying to undermine Congressional oversight, undermining the separation of Church and State inherent in the 1st Amendment, and attacking privacy and the right to control one's own body.

      And you'll know it if you allow McCain to win, just as you did with Kerry, and just as you did with Gore.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    28. Re:New Meme by Deanalator · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's been said a million times before, but Powell was not an intelligence officer. His job was to take the intelligence he was given, and hand it off to the UN. When he found out that the people who had given him the intelligence had lied to him, he quit.

    29. Re:New Meme by ptbarnett · · Score: 2, Informative

      So, how many times have you backed a third-party candidate? Has the result changed yet?

      In 1992, Ross Perot got 19% of the popular vote: not enough to win the election, but well within the margin of victory for either candidate. He finished second in two states.

      It was a wake-up call for both parties. Deficit spending (one of Perot's pet issues) was reigned in. The Republicans crafted a "Contract for America" for the 1994 mid-term elections, some of which looked like it was copied almost verbatim from Perot's campaign platform. Subsequently, the Republicans took control of both Houses of Congress.

      Historically, third parties in the US have succeeded by threatening the hegemony of the two major political parties and instead affect the behavior of BOTH parties. A notable exception: when the Republicans displaced the Whigs, ironically over the issue of slavery.

    30. Re:New Meme by Rolgar · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That doesn't give us more choice, because the choices are filtered for us by the media and the parties before most of us get a say.

      We need a final election system that is made to work with multiple candidates so that there should be no reason for somebody to vote against their preferred candidate out of fear that there second (or third) preferred candidate will fail to eliminate defeat their least preferred candidate. If we have this electoral system, we could have 5 or six candidates from each party and another dozen from other parties or as independents.

      After that, if we still decide we want a primary system, it needs to be a party-less primary, so that nobody is eliminated from contention without the say-so of the entire electorate. The only purpose of the primary should weed out individuals that the majority of the electorate consider clearly out of the running.

      This would eliminate the current one side against the other conflict that we have. All candidates would struggle to appeal to the broad middle, by trying to piece together policies that appeal to all people instead of one half of the country or the other, who may only be interested in a couple of issues of one party or the other.

      If done for the members of Congress, you could also end up with 3-5 parties who each have different focuses on different issues. The members of each party would then examine the issues out of their focus, and side with or against a party that had a focus on that issue, and make for a much more fluid Congress. For instance, there might be a party that focuses just on adhering the Constitution and strict adherence to it, which might side with the Republicans on certain issues and with the Democrats on others. You might have a party that only focuses on issues concerning parents (education, crime) and another that focuses on elderly issues (medical expenses, Social Security, etc.).

      This would reduce the venom in our public discourse, because some popular policies that are currently blocked by our current 50-50 split would probably find more support if there were more than just two parties, who sometimes take a bad policy stance just to keep a minority happy.

      Unfortunately, we'll probably never get it approved, because the electorate doesn't understand the need, and the parties in power won't want it.

    31. Re:New Meme by rnswebx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I wish I had mod points. People are taking this one FISA vote, and going completely off the deep end. Yeah, it's not a popular vote, and yes I disagree with some of the language within the amendments (telecom immunity) but I don't think that single vote is worthy of disqualifying a great candidate.

      If everyone who was pro-Obama before the FISA vote and is pro- after the FISA vote actually end up voting for a third party candidate, they're essentially helping to bring McCain in as our next president. I'll probably get flamed for this, but the bottom line is a 3rd party isn't going to win this election.

      Perhaps 20 years from now, depending on how these next couple of terms turn out, we can expect serious change to our two party system. For now, in my opinion, it's imperative that we keep McCain out of office. Our country is in dire need of a new direction, and as much as the FISA bill ticks some of us off, Obama is the candidate who can get us started. I implore all of you who have flopped away from Obama because of the FISA vote, to think about the rest of what Obama brings to the table. Also, if you can find the time, think about what our country will be like if we endure another 4 (8?) years of GWB's near twin in McCain. Our country needs this vote, probably more than any other vote in my lifetime (born in '78), and we need it now.

    32. Re:New Meme by Jeremi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The whole US system has a fucking cancer of strategic voting

      Agreed... that is the inevitable result of using plurality voting, which demands exactly that sort of behavior if you ever want to win. The best way to solve the problem would be to switch to another system (e.g. range or condorcet) that allows people to vote sincerely without penalizing them for doing so. Of course, the problem is that the people in power were all elected using the current system, so the current system (by definition) works for them... which makes them reluctant to change it. Only a real tidal wave of popular support will bring in the necessary electoral reforms, but too many people's eyes glaze over when you start discussing game theory...

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    33. Re:New Meme by susano_otter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ah, the typical whining of someone who thinks their extremist minority opinion should have the same chance at ruling his fellow citizens as the more centrist, moderate majority opinion... which chance it would have, if he actually went to the trouble of convincing a majority of his fellow citizens to support it, instead of demanding that they accept it even though they don't support it.

      Take the Greens, for example: If the Greens were able to convince a majority of the electorates in even as few as six or seven states, they'd be well on their way to achieving the Presidency.

      As it is, the Greens have yet to convince the majority of the electorate in even one state. So why should they get any play at all on the national stage? Wake me up when one of your other parties has a strong faction in their state legislature, a Congressman or two, and maybe a Senator. Then we'll talk.

      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

    34. Re:New Meme by dontmakemethink · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Rolling dice is a mechanical random number generator, so you're not "repeating the same action" when you roll dice repeatedly.

      That definition of insanity is a quote from Einstein. He's probably thought it through a little more than we would.

      You might wanna listen to one of the other voices in your head. ;)

      --

      War as we knew it was obsolete
      Nothing could beat complete denial
      - Emily Haines
    35. Re:New Meme by billy8988 · · Score: 5, Informative

      In India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_India/, we have a multi-party system where there are literally 10s of parties that have representation in the parliament. But people are sick and tired of these small parties being corrupt and opportunistic in their voting and destabilizing elected governments. I think that is the case in Israel and to some extent in Italy. Grass is always greener on the other side...I guess.

    36. Re:New Meme by zx-15 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The only problem is that what he did behind the scenes could never be proven. I might say that he ate newborn babies behind the scene and my statement would be just as credible as yours.

    37. Re:New Meme by fredrated · · Score: 2, Informative

      "You cut off your nose despite your face"

      I think you mean "You cut off your nose to spite your face."

    38. Re:New Meme by ScentCone · · Score: 2, Insightful

      dire need of a new direction

      Out of curiosity, what do you specifically mean when you say that? Like Obama, you are uttering the word "change" or "new direction," but going to great lengths to avoid actual specifics. It's fine to say how much you won't be like the person you so personally hate, but you're not saying in what way. With Obama, I think it's because he's smart enough to know that if he actually did specific, he knows he'd alienate an enormous portion of the voting public. In cases where he's got no choice, and has been shamed into being specific (say, on dropping what we're doing, and pulling out of Iraq). When his feet are actually held to the fire, the first thing he does is show how very specifically he wouldn't really do anything differently at all. Now that he has to be specific, he's feeling more deferential to the actual commanders on the ground there who know what's going on (just like McCain, just like Bush). Confronted with the reality of networks of violent people making phone calls to and from the US and communicating through system that transit the equipment run by private companies in the US that interface with international systems, he's suddenly (a la his FISA vote) realized that the ability to tackle that call between a Hezbollah franchise office and a financier in the U.S. is actually necessary... just like McCain, just like Bush.

      What is your specific "new direction?" Specifically? The president doesn't run the economy. Congress (currently run by Democrats) has FAR more to do with taxes, trade, etc., than the president. Congress can simply deny a president the Supreme Court nominee if they don't like him/her. Congress votes on budget matters. Why aren't you talking about getting a new direction there, where it will actually make more of a difference? Or is an inexperienced commander in chief - someone with zero executive experience who makes pronouncements about places like Iraq without even meeting with the people who would report to him on the subject and without simply going there as so many other policy-minded people have (and from which they return, with very different priorities once they've been there) - your idea of "different" in a good way? Or do you simply mean "different" as in, "different skin color?" Be specific - because otherwise, like him, you're just blowing smoke.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    39. Re:New Meme by squiggleslash · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You know, this whole "Obama just talks about change, he doesn't have any real policies" meme is getting tired. It was tired when Clinton first started spouting it, at a time when Obama would uses his speeches as an opportunity to inspire, while referring people to his record and policies on his website, and it's tired now. It's especially ridiculous to promote the meme in an article which is about John McCain's attempts to record changes of Obama's position by monitoring his website.

      If you want to know what Obama stands for, you have numerous sources who will tell you, from general principles to policy specifics. And believe me, the vast majority of us who support - strongly or otherwise - Obama do so knowing what he stands for.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    40. Re:New Meme by Danse · · Score: 2, Informative

      Until we change our voting system to something like Instant Runoff voting, the large parties will never be beaten because voting for a 3rd party really is throwing away your vote.

      No, it really isn't. This is an infuriating bit of misinformation that needs to stop. The only thing that is throwing away your vote is not voting. Any vote, any vote at all, is not throwing your vote away. Period. More importantly, the only thing that keeps third parties from gaining power in this country is thinking like yours. We should get a different voting system, but barring that, people need to wake the fuck up and realize they're only shooting themselves in the foot by voting for "not that guy". Obama and McCain have clearly shown us that you're just voting for the same guy, with a different name.

      There is a logical reason why people vote the way they do in our system. That's why we need a new system so badly. The problem is that those in power will do everything possible to discredit any system but ours and fight incredibly hard to prevent any change to the system that got them where they are. They know how to game the current system. Why would they want to change the rules?

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
  2. The Goods by slifox · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here are the goods from TFA:

    The Friday, July 11 version of the page says:
    "at great cost our troops have helped reduce violence in some areas of Iraq, but even those reductions do not get us below the unsustainable levels of violence of mid-2006."

    The Monday, July 14 version spidered by Versionista says:
    "Our troops have heroically helped reduce civilian casualties in Iraq to early 2006 levels. This is a testament to our military's hard work, improved counterinsurgency tactics, and enormous sacrifice by our troops and military families."

    1. Re:The Goods by mweather · · Score: 2, Informative

      So he updated his policy position when the facts changed? No wonder the Republicans see this as a bad thing!

    2. Re:The Goods by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      yeah it only took him months to realize what everyone else knew back in May. Now that all the surge troops are out of Iraq he has no choice but to change his position.

      Also it's not just that he's changing position, it's that he's rewriting history to sound like he never argued the surge would have the opposite effect it actually has. His entire campaign is one of emphasizing judgment to compensate for his lack of experience, but this and other examples (wright, rezko, ayers, ethanol, chicago housing projects) seriously bring his judgment into question.

    3. Re:The Goods by SuperKendall · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So he updated his policy position when the facts changed?

      Republicans are just recording that it changed. Why are people so upset they are recording the differences between what Obama used to say and what he says now?

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    4. Re:The Goods by Snocone · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So, you can't refute it, just call me a hippie?

      Hmmm, well, I'm on lunch break, let's take a minute and do some quick googling, shall we?

      Iraq NEVER had WMD

      "In March 1986 UN Secretary General Javier Perez de Cuellar formally accused Iraq of using chemical weapons against Iran. Citing the report of four chemical warfare experts whom the UN had sent to Iran in February and March 1986, the secretary general called on Baghdad to end its violation of the 1925 Geneva Protocol on the use of chemical weapons. The UN report concluded that "Iraqi forces have used chemical warfare against Iranian forces"; the weapons used included both mustard gas and nerve gas..."

      http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/cw/program.htm

      NEVER had any link to terrorists.

      "Turkish intelligence agents told the agency that Baghdad's support of the PKK intensified especially during the last three months when Saddam's arms and equipment were supplied to PKK bases in Iraq by the Iraqi command.."

      http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb6465/is_199912/ai_n25746892

      "Saddam has supplied the PLO] with rocket-propelled grenades, anti-tank missile launchers and Russian-made anti-aircraft guns..."."

      http://www.acpr.org.il/cloakrm/clk100.html

      "For instance, how about their support for The Army of Muhammad, a known al-Qaeda subsidiary operating in Bahrain?"

      "Nor was that Saddam's only support for an AQ subsidiary. Saddam put money into Egypt's Islamic Jihad."

      http://hotair.com/archives/2008/03/14/saddam-supported-at-least-two-al-qaeda-groups-pentagon/comment-page-1/

      "Beyond cash and diplomatic help, Saddam Hussein was the Conrad Hilton of the terrorist world. He provided a place for terrorists to kick back, relax, and reflect after killing people for a living. ..."

      "Saddam Hussein's general store for terrorists included medical care, too..."

      "According to dissidents, journalists who have visited, and even United Nations weapons inspectors, Saddam Hussein appears to have offered training to terrorists, in addition to funding, diplomatic help, safe haven and medical care. The Associated Press reports that Coalition forces shut down at least three terrorist training camps in Iraq. The most notorious of these was the base at Salman Pak, about 15 miles southeast of Baghdad. Before the war, numerous Iraqi defectors said the camp featured a passenger jet on which terrorists sharpened their air piracy skills...."

      http://www.husseinandterror.com/

      Apparently your definition of "NEVER" is not one used by the rest of the world!

    5. Re:The Goods by Snocone · · Score: 2, Insightful

      OK ... just one more post, since you're so insistent.

      Now look here, son, to some of us what you casually stick your blinders on your idiot little head and refer to as "ancient history", we find a personally significant and extremely disturbing memory that there were places in the world where nerve gas and mustard gas were being used in a World War II style war of pure land grab naked aggression against a country's neighbours, while we were trying to sleep.

      Add another 15-odd years to that of internal genocide against Kurds and Marsh Arabs, a second war started against a tiny neighbour out of sheer naked aggression, and the continual flouting of UN resolutions the ceasefire was contingent on ... ... and well, son, there ain't just no way you're going to convince that some of us with a memory that works over the 25 year span in consideration that killing Saddam Hussein's evil ass is anything but a service to international order. No matter how loudly and repeatedly you bleat and whine your hippie talking points.

      Now, if you want to make the case that the way it was gone about was insanely expensive and extremely ill prepared indeed and a much better way to go about things do would have been to send a nice big cheque to Israel with a note "Nice work on Gerard Bull! Pity his boss is still around..." sure I can get on side with you on that.

  3. http://www.barackobama.com/robots.txt by Jizzbug · · Score: 2, Insightful

    is totally empty... how adhering to robots.txt is clever is beyond me...

    --

    -=/\- Jizzbug -/\=-
    1. Re:http://www.barackobama.com/robots.txt by thrillseeker · · Score: 4, Funny

      what'd be nice is if politicians adhered to theconstitution.txt

    2. Re:http://www.barackobama.com/robots.txt by rhoder · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back. "It's just a goddamned piece of paper!"

      --
      This signature is typed manually.
    3. Re:http://www.barackobama.com/robots.txt by wile_e_wonka · · Score: 3, Informative

      Robots.txt only exists if you want to direct the search engine spider/robot in some regard. If you just want the search engine spider/robot to do what it does naturally (crawl and file information away), then you don't need to have a robots.txt at all. I think the editor was concerned that it would be unethical for the McCain campaign to create a crawler that ignores robots.txt. So McCain's campaign's savvy was only "clever" if it wasn't cheating (by ignoring robots.txt). In this case, as you mention, there was no robots.txt, which means McCain had no need to cheat. And of course that is the case--certainly Obama wants his campaign website to be searchable by Google.

    4. Re:http://www.barackobama.com/robots.txt by phlinn · · Score: 2, Informative

      No proof that this was actually said. The only source for this supposed statement was Doug Thompson of Capital Hill Blue.

      --
      "Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny! Free men pull in all sorts of directions" -- Havelock Vetinari
    5. Re:http://www.barackobama.com/robots.txt by b0bby · · Score: 3, Informative

      So McCain's campaign's savvy was only "clever" if it wasn't cheating (by ignoring robots.txt).

      Actually , his campaign was just using versionista.com; they're the clever ones, and McCain's campaign is just using their service like anyone else could.

  4. Oblig. Futurama Ref. by slifox · · Score: 4, Funny

    I personally favor the Fingerlicans...
     
    ...although, the Tastycrats do make a good point about that titanium tax...

    1. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by gilroy · · Score: 5, Funny

      Sadly, everyone's gonna end up voting for the Brain Slug Party... again.

    2. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by ari_j · · Score: 2, Funny

      The problem is that the Fingerlicans' ten-cent titanium tax doesn't go too far enough.

      The sad part is that the Libertarian Party really has built a reputation as being the Dudes For The Legalation Of Hemp party. If not for that, people wouldn't be afraid to be libertarian because they wouldn't have to always be saying "I'm libertarian with a lowercase ell" to people.

    3. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Don't vote for the apathy part!

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by Hotawa+Hawk-eye · · Score: 5, Funny

      ALL HAIL PRESIDENT HYPNOTOAD.

    5. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by MBGMorden · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't underestimate the ineptness of the average voter. When I told one guy the other day that I was a member of the Libertarian party he thought that was some terrorist or Nazi thing. They like their simple cut choices. Good/Bad (they'll assign one of those to Republican or Democrat, and the other to the left over party), and everything else is not just bad but evil and "un-American".

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    6. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by MBGMorden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not really. It's moreso simply a party centered on freedom. Put in enough basic laws to keep society running at a reasonable level (ie, theft, rape, murder are illegal) and besides that have the government butt the hell out of our lives.

      Both the Republicans and the Democrats want to enforce their morals on us. Changing the party just changes the moral code.

      For the Republicans, it's "immoral" to do drugs, engage in prostitution, generally speak against the Bible or do anything non-Christian, etc.

      For the Democrats, it's "immoral" to own a gun, or to not open your wallet and support every other person in the country financially.

      It's actually kinda ironic that you'd call me a "selfish republican", because the Democrat idea of social services IS one of the mroe tolerable ideas I have - the Republicans are far more annoying with their holier than thou attitude. That said, the Democrats still are generally anti-gun, and still tend to rear their ugly heads when it comes to things like banning video games and such (that spans both parties, but that just means both are guilty rather than canceling anything out).

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    7. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If not for that, people wouldn't be afraid to be libertarian because they wouldn't have to always be saying "I'm libertarian with a lowercase ell" to people.

      I couldn't care less about that. I specify the lower case 'l' to distiguish myself from the party that denies the existence of market failures and coercive business deals.

    8. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not really. It's moreso simply a party centered on freedom.

      ...for certain definitions of "freedom", perhaps.

      The original libertarians were based around freedom. But a party that upholds an economic system based on government policies that concentrate wealth and power into the hands of a minority, backs a funny sort of "freedom".

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    9. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by ultranova · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't underestimate the ineptness of the average voter. When I told one guy the other day that I was a member of the Libertarian party he thought that was some terrorist or Nazi thing.

      To be fair, the libertarian rants on Slashdot typically center around how the weak should be left to die as they are nothing but parasites on the strong, which is not all that dissimilar from the justification Nazis gave for the Holocaust and their other atrocities, so I can see why people might confuse these two.

      "I'd rather see you all dead from hunger or disease than pay taxes" might be a honest political view, but it isn't going to win you any votes :).

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    10. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by Culture20 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hypnotoad can only control the meatspace. Once the robot vote goes through, Nixon will win again.

    11. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by Jeremi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      hey like their simple cut choices. Good/Bad (they'll assign one of those to Republican or Democrat, and the other to the left over party), and everything else is not just bad but evil and "un-American".

      Maybe I'm just one of those simplistic morons... but what if one of the parties actually is evil? I mean, there is room for argument and moral ambiguity and gray areas on a lot of issues, but when it comes to things like torture, indefinite detention without trial, deliberate subversion of the Constitution, or killing tens of thousands of human lives in unnecessary wars based on lies, sometimes you've just got to put your foot down and call a spade a spade. Evil is as evil does, and the last eight years have seen a lot of evil perpetrated by the party in power.

      And yes, I'm aware of the irony that the moral absolutism in my preceding paragraph sounds suspiciously like W's rhetoric in the running to the Iraq War. One of the most pernicious strategies of miscreants is to cloak their crimes in the rhetoric of the Good and Just, to confuse well-meaning people into supporting their criminal behavior.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    12. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by syphax · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As evidenced in, say, Somalia. I know Somalia's not a great model (it's missing the "enough basic laws" part), but it's not irrelevant.

      I'm a big-government libertarian, which I know is inherently contradictory. I like the ideals of freedom, but in practice you always end up with so much market failure due to externalities, information asymmetries, etc., that a nice layer of medium cost bureaucratic inefficiency is actually a desirable thing.

      --
      Simple Unexpected Concrete Credible Emotional Stories
    13. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If there is anything un-american in the political landscape of the USA, it's the fake two party democracy that is essentially a single party dictatorship in disguise.

      I don't live in the US. I live in Europe. From our point of view, you have two parties that are so similar we can't even really tell the difference. Our position is usually closer to the democrats, since we tend to be quite a bit more "left" on the political spectrum than the average US person, and the dems aren't "so far right" in most of their positions. Oh, don't get me wrong, from our point of view, one is a moderate right wing party, the other is a harcore right wing party. But then, we're not really into the "strong leader" idea. We had some bad encounters with that.

      Many people here seriously don't see the point in voting. Maybe because we're also not really used to the idea of parties having corporate sponsors. To us, it seems you're voting on what cartel is to rule the US. Political viewpoints come secondary. So if you want the media industry and computer industry to rule, go Dem, if you want military and oil to call the shots, vote Rep.

      That's basically how it looks from beyond the pond.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    14. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by aliquis · · Score: 3, Funny

      You want to join our wanking group yourself as well? Please do, everyone is welcome .. Just ask for it and someone will give you a helping hand.

    15. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by AshtangiMan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think it was Jesse Helms who said something like "These people who talk about freedom of religion really mean freedom from religion." That might be the only thing he ever said that I agree with, in the deepest part of my soul . . . freedom from religion is what this country is all about. And that is the only way anyone will ever have freedom of religion.

      It annoys me that Democrat == anti gun, etc. exists because it detracts from any kind of real debate. I think purposefully, and this is why things like abortion, family values, etc. are talked about as "the issues", when without the media playing them up they would not be "the issues".

      So the thing that happens with the libertarians is they come off as crackpots in the media. People who think every town should be run by a militia and such. There was a rundown of candidates in the free paper here (alibi) a while ago and the libertarians all came across this way . . . I think of libertarians as a more pragmatic version of the old school republicans, before religion became the rallying cry. Small government, be stewards to the environment, dont regulate the market and don't let the market regulate government (the latter part seems to be largely ignored, but a free market needs both). I guess my offtopic rant is done . . .

    16. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Libertarians are a lot more honest about being selfish wankers.

      Not all libertarians are Randroids, and we're not all interested in hoarding our wealth. What most libertarians I know have been most concerned about is having choice when it comes to how their money is spent. Why should my money go to farm subsidies, corporate welfare, or the War in Iraq when I'd prefer to give it to cancer research, the children's hospital, or invest it in a space exploration firm? That might be selfish, but greed is worse. Greedy people want to take other people's money and spend it on their own goals rather than the goals of the people they took it from.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    17. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by pluther · · Score: 5, Funny

      To be fair, the libertarian rants on Slashdot typically center around how the weak should be left to die

      And the Democrats want to eat babies and the Republicans want to drink blood.

      Yeah, but at least they lie about it.

      --
      If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
    18. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by ari_j · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And this is exactly the point I was making in my original comment regarding libertarian vs. Libertarian. I believe in liberty. For lack of a better term, I'm a libertarian. I am not a Libertarian. And having to make that separation pisses me off. Just like Democrats aren't into democracy and Republicans aren't into a republic. Of course, the Constitution Party hasn't read the Constitution, and I could go on. Capitalize a word and add "Party" at the end and it suddenly means the opposite.

    19. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by Jtheletter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The original libertarians were based around freedom. But a party that upholds an economic system based on government policies that concentrate wealth and power into the hands of a minority, backs a funny sort of "freedom".

      So wait, that would be different from the current state of things how exactly?

      I'm quite serious. Please, enlighten us as to why the current system isn't screwing over anyone who isn't already rich? Do you get a 7%-10% raise every year? No? Then you're not even keeping up with true inflation. And don't throw CPI at me, that doesn't include food and fuel costs and is not representative of actual inflation.

      Anyone seen the M3 money report that gives the total increase of dollars in circulation? No? Oh that's right, that's because it was so horrifying that they (the Federal Reserve) stopped releasing that information.

      At least the Libertarian party supports the Constitution. Show me a D or R who actually does.

      The voting system needs to change before there will be real political change, until then people will still just vote for the lesser evil to keep the greater evil out of office, when really we should be voting all the evils off the ballot.

      --
      -- I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. It's not my fault that life sucks so much. --
    20. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by Gulthek · · Score: 2, Funny

      Nixon lost the robot vote when he flipped his position on having a huge robot body.

    21. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by a_real_bast... · · Score: 3, Funny

      This is why I prefer 'value'-neutral statements in politics. For instance: Bush is an irresponsible, know-little bastard who has never learned there are such things are consequences. Most, if not all, of his cabinet are (and were) bastards looking to skew the entire country to their own advantage and/or advance their own strange ideology, even when it takes ignoring reality (an honourable exception is Ms. Rice: she's a bitch who [insert previous rant here]). And his party are spineless twats who would not challenge a president from their side, no matter how stupid, arrogant, and unconstitutional the action. Even when he declared he could ignore Congress if he wanted to, the people whose power he'd just land-grabbed continued to support him! Even the most uninterested know-nothing is generally self-interested enough to start making noise then, but no...

      Isn't that much better than just calling them 'evil'? Cathartic, even. (",)

      --
      You're making me think. You won't like me when I'm thinking.
    22. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by ninjagin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      To temper this a little bit, let me try to inform on the assumption that dems see gun ownership as "immoral". We do not find gun ownership immoral (while unaffiliated, I almost always vote democrat). I'm also an NRA member, and I have enough guns to arm my entire neighborhood, twice over.

      For most of us left-leaners, guns are seen as tools of war or tools of crime or tools of getting something to eat. Most left-leaners have no problem with gun ownership, but also believe that there's a certain level of responsiblity (and regulation) that makes them safer to have around if one -=must=- have one around. Interestingly, in conversations with my right-leaning friends who keep and shoot guns, they also point out that a concealed carrry license doesn't require any safety training or demonstration of competence, whereas we require that for cars and motorcycles. The colorful part is that people die from poor operation of cars and motorbikes all the time, so there's a seperate argument as to whether training and testing have much effect, ... but I digress.

      Left-leaners basically don't want to see guns used in crimes, and the thought is that if you make guns hard to get, or restrict which guns can be acquired based on meaningful background checks or licensing/registration schemes, the likelihood of having these guns being used in crimes is diminished. Our friends on the right love to point out that criminals don't follow the rules, and therefore the restrictions only fall on the law-abiding. True enough. Yet, if a bank robber gets one sentence if he robs a bank with a fist and an angry look, most lefties believe that he should be charged with two crimes if he robs a bank with a gun, and three crimes if it's a gun that has not been legally acquired.

      I concede that most of these controversies tend to flow to envisioning "what if" scenarios, but I believe it is unfair to state that democrats think owning guns are immoral. Democrats want to see criminals who use guns punished to the fullest extent, and to reduce the numbers of guns used in crimes. That last sentence is not forcing morality on anyone. Everyone can agree on those two things, even the gun-nuts. Where people differ is on how you accomplish those two things, and that's a very good dialogue to have.

      Lots of democrats own guns, but most of them choose to not associate themselves with the NRA, and choose to not justify their ownership by way of the 2nd amendment. They're pretty much silent on the topic, unless you get them talking about hunting. For my part, I am an NRA member because we stand for the training, gun education (operations, safety) and gun rights education. In general, I do not support the candidates that the NRA suggests I support,... unless they're democrats, that is.

      --
      .. pa-ra-bo-la, pa-ra-bo-la, 2 pi R, 2 pi R, where's your latus rectum, where's your latus rectum, 2 pi R
    23. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by lupis42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not to put too fine a point on it, but don't the Democrats currently hold both houses? And haven't they been compliant, not to say willing participants throughout much of this? I don't disagree that the people currently in power are evil, but I don't think that Dems get to disassociate themselves from their cowardly compliance and active participation in the perpetration of the worst evils of their nominal opponent. Where was the fighting? Where was the resistance? We've had two years where the Dems have controlled both houses, and nobody has been impeached, nothing has been repealed, they might as well be Republicans. They came into office riding a demand for change, with a mandate to do something different. Instead, they've done nothing at best.

    24. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by nasor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      While I tend to agree with you, you should remember that the majority of BOTH parties voted for the PATRIOT act and BOTH voted to go to war in Iraq. If you think that the Democrats are a bastion of respect for the Constitution, you should recall that it was the Democrats who brought us such gems as the Clipper Chip, the DMCA, and the Civil Asset Forfeiture Act. They were also the first to set up a "free speech zone" at their convention in 1988, long before it was trendy with Republicans. The Republicans only seem evil because they are the ones who have been in power lately.

    25. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by lgw · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The Libertainian party is mostly a bunch of extremists that don't well represent ordinary libertaitians precisely because they're a third party - those politicians willing to compromise join the two large parties, leaving only those unwilling to compromise.

      This is just how politics works in the US - there are only two parties, but each is a coalition of many diverse interests. Power shifts regularly withing those coalitions. The parties may be *named* Republican and Democrat each year, but that doesn't mean they stand for the same things.

      The problems everyone like to complain about aren't problems with the parties IMO, but with the system as a whole - to much money is required to campaign, and politicians have to much ability to funnel money to campaign contributers in payback. Having 5 parties instead of 2 won't fix this.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    26. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by lgw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh, we're totally screwed over the constitution for one simple reason: the constitution really says nothing anywhere that protects a woman's right to have an abortion. As a country, we seem to have decided that that right is more important than preventing "constitution creep" and thereby losing all of our other rights.

      Something has gone *structurally* wrong here. If people feel pasionately that we need a new right protected by the government, the mechanism should *not* be "cleverly reinterpret the constitution to protect that right". As soon as the SCOTUS began seriously talking about "emanations" and "penumbras" of the constitution instead of the actual text, we were screwed.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    27. Re:Oblig. Futurama Ref. by Oktober+Sunset · · Score: 3, Funny

      An exclamation mark? That's it, you're kicked out of the party.

  5. Who are you trying to fool? by ErikZ · · Score: 4, Informative

    This just proves that old Republicans can learn new tricks.

    Are you kidding? The Republicans have been embarrassingly behind the times when it comes to IT stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole spider/diff issue came from some college Intern with initiative, working on his own.

    Normally I'd say something positive to balance my post out, but this election is look god-awful for both parties. I just don't give a damn.

    --
    Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
    1. Re:Who are you trying to fool? by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Republicans definitely are not behind in IT, We've been doing IT since, well the first computer.

    2. Re:Who are you trying to fool? by slifox · · Score: 4, Informative

      "The Republicans" didn't do a damn thing that I'd call special or a new trick--they simply used an existing tool (and no, its not diff or any other command-line tool):

      Versionista monitors Web sites that you specify for edits. Our Web-based service records every change, clearly highlighting added or deleted words and sentences.

    3. Re:Who are you trying to fool? by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because for the first time in 40 years there is a contender who isn't a rich old white guy. For the first time EVER there is a real contender who isn't white.

      If you can't see that this is an astonishing departure from the status quo, then you really are blind. I'm not sure what kind of candidate it would take to impress people like you, short of a 35-year old gay atheist inuit liberatarian

      If you think superficial factors make him a better candidate for president, then you're every bit as damned stupid as the racists who think that they automatically make him worse. Most of us recognize that the color of his skin is irrelevant. We judge him by his merits as a candidate. Or, as Martin Luther King, Jr., would have said, we judge him not by the color of his skin, but by the content of his character. And I, personally, have judged him by his worth as a candidate, and found him no different than any other politician. A lot of talk, nothing to back it up. Just look at the damn FISA bill if you want evidence. If that doesn't convince you that Obama is the same breed, just with a different skin tone, nothing will.

      There's this idiotic attitude that is starting to pervade our society, where people figure that because a group of people was oppressed in the past, now they should get special regard. That's every bit as immoral and insulting as oppressing them in the first place! Judge them as the person they are, not as the color of their skin, whether positively or negatively.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    4. Re:Who are you trying to fool? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So essentially your argument is "vote obama, he's black". He's still no different than any other politician in every other aspect.

    5. Re:Who are you trying to fool? by readin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Really? Obama is 'just another democrat'? Is that what people smart enough to post in html on slashdot really think? I'm surprised it isn't obvious to more people how significant Obama is as a fundamentally new kind of candidate. More so even than JFK, Obama has inspired a whole new generation of voters to get involved in politics because they can actually relate to someone running for office.

      Dang! Here I sit without any mod points to give this guy a +1 funny.

      Why? Because for the first time in 40 years there is a contender who isn't a rich old white guy. For the first time EVER there is a real contender who isn't white.

      If you believe his race is the most important thing about him, you do belong in his party. The rest of the slashdot crowd is probably a tad more sophisticated than that.

      After this election, there is a very good chance that we'll have a president who does NOT hail from a family of either wealth or privilege or both; he'll be a Harvard-educated, self-made minority millionaire.

      Do you remember Ronald Reagan or Bill Clinton?

      If you can't see that this is an astonishing departure from the status quo, then you really are blind. I'm not sure what kind of candidate it would take to impress people like you, short of a 35-year old gay atheist inuit liberatarian.

      Ok, being libertarian would be impressive, buy why should we be especially impressed by a 35-year old gay atheist inuit?

      Fortunately, the difference - if it is lost of slashdotters - is NOT lost on the rest of the world. 5 billion brown people in foreign countries know that Obama represents a tectonic shift in American politics, in American foreign-relations, and in American global leadership - economic, political, cultural, environmental, and more.

      The U.S. needs a president for the U.S.. The rest of the world can get their own presidents so long as they don't threaten us with weapons of mass destruction (whether they are honest about actually having the weapons or not) or otherwise bother us or our allies.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    6. Re:Who are you trying to fool? by mdmkolbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We should judge a candidate by their positions not their race. As far as I can tell in this regard Obama is 'just another democrat'. After listening to one of his speaches I discovered that (1) he is a very good rhetorician (that can be a good or bad thing), (2) he talks a lot about 'change' but never says from what to what, and (3) the few positions that he actually stated where just standard democratic positions.

      I would be willing to stand corrected, but on the issues Obama looks like any other democrat. He talks slick, but that is about it.

    7. Re:Who are you trying to fool? by SuperKendall · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wow, you are one arrogant piece of shit aren't you?

      Definitely a Republican.

      Ahh, making elitist judgement calls as to the character of another without examining someone in depth. Definitely a Democrat.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    8. Re:Who are you trying to fool? by dwpro · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You present at least 3 argumentative fallacies:

      ad hominem -everyone who doesn't see this astonishing departure is blind
      straw man -noone said that it would take a "35-year old gay atheist inuit liberatarian" to impress them
      bandwagon -5 billion brown people can't be wrong

      Racial, cultural, and class issues don't really bring much to the table. Obama has already gone back on a campaign promise before even being elected (voting for FISA, not supporting a filibuster). His voting record is far from a giant divergence from the status quo. I think slashdotters are being realistic.

      --
      Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. -- Susan Ertz
    9. Re:Who are you trying to fool? by DavidTC · · Score: 2

      Obama is the same breed as Clinton.

      Which makes him infinitely better than someone who's the same breed as Bush.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    10. Re:Who are you trying to fool? by Protoslo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Right, FISA as a whole...he considered it absolutely vital to grant Bush...expanded wiretapping powers...at the cost of a chance to discover the extent of his lawbreaking through civil discovery. Claiming that the FISA amendments are necessary to clarify the scope of the law is bullshit. Check out Al-Haramain v. Bush: the lawsuit with clear standing. If they manage to get around the stifling state secrets privilege, it seems likely that they will have Bush's actions declared illegal under pre-amended FISA. So basically, you're left with Obama buying Bush's argument that 72 hours is just way too burdensome a time limit to apply for a warrant in the FISA court, which does nothing but grant these warrants; he needs an easier process drawn out over weeks including appeals, with looser burdens for application. Obama thinks that giving Bush more of what he wants is so absolutely vital that we might as well de-facto pardon him while they're at it, for what should have been the biggest scandal since COINTELPRO.

      Even without the immunity, I would have been troubled (read: appalled and outraged) by his vote. What kind of message does it send to make FISA even easier to comply with after Bush blatantly ignores it? You do know this this bill...actually legalizes warrantless wiretapping, I'm sure. As long as "the target" is an overseas foreigner (excuse me, as long as they reasonably believe this to be the case), they can listen to the overseas calls of American citizens without a warrant...using a broad and automated system. Take a gander at the pertinent section of the bill. You still need a FISA warrant to wiretap a U.S. citizen as the target for evidentiary purposes...well, you need one in a week anyway.

      So, can you still sit there are justify this vote? Exactly what part of this bill is strengthening the rule of law and executive accountability? You know the lawsuit I linked earlier in the post...the plaintiff can still be wiretapped warrantlessly, only with the full protection of law this time! Not for evidentiary purposes, but if I recall a certain executive order correctly, all it takes to freeze someone's assets for supporting terrorism is for the AG to say "he's a bad bad man." A great day for Obama and America, to be sure.

    11. Re:Who are you trying to fool? by Bombula · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I don't have time to reply to each poster, but the general comments boil down to this:

      1. Race shouldn't be an issue so it is unreasonable to argue that Obama represents something new.

      2. He's all talk and no walk.

      For the first point, it is painfully obvious that every single person who says, "I don't see color - you're a reverse-racist for saying it is relevant" is white. Maybe the fact that Obama hails from minority heritage is irrelevant to you, but it is positively moronic to think it doesn't matter to tens of millions of minority voters or to billions around the world. When a brown-skinned man at last becomes President of the United States, it will fundamentally alter how minorities - particularly African Americans - view themselves. It will prove once and for all the anything is possible for anyone; that the American Dream is available to all of us. If you don't realize or understand that black people living in the projects DO think the American Dream excludes them, you are a fucking idiot. You're also obviously too young to remember a time just forty years ago when brown people couldn't use the same fucking drinking fountain as white people in some parts of the country. As for the billions across the rest of the world, much the same applies. If you don't understand the significance of America electing a minority president, you simply don't understand the views and positions of the majority of the people on our planet. Here's a hint: that is not something to be proud of.

      Obama's ethnicity may not mean anything to you, but it means a lot to most of the world's people. But please, don't let that stop you from breaking your arm patting yourself on the back for "not seeing color."

      As for the second point, Obama's record is a strong as anyone in congress. The FISA bill is the first bit of ammunition anyone has against him, and was a compromise vote - not an outright flipflop as some would brand it. If you read his published statements (it's obvious who among you hasn't) then you'll see his reasoning for voting for the bill. No-one can get elected by acting like Kucinich. Obama must play the political game if he wants to get elected. And he plays it brilliantly. But as another poster mentioned, he is the only candidate whose pounding rhetoric is supported by a firm call to rationality and reason for dealing with complex issues instead of a standard platform-based response.

      --
      A-Bomb
  6. New Tricks? by stewbacca · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Perhaps old Republicans should learn that Czechoslovakia hasn't existed since the early 1990s before we deem them worthy of learning new tricks?

    1. Re:New Tricks? by thrillseeker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      all 55 states of it are gone?

  7. muahaha, gotcha... by ckuttruff · · Score: 5, Funny

    McCain Camp:
    So through the course of our research we've found that you've modified some of the sections on your policy positions...

    *coughs (and that you have twenty times the traffic we do)

    1. Re:muahaha, gotcha... by paeanblack · · Score: 5, Funny

      So through the course of our research we've found that you've modified some of the sections on your policy positions...

      *coughs (and that you have twenty times the traffic we do)

      How else do you expect people to keep up with all of those policy position changes?

  8. robots.txt? Goldmine! by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 5, Informative

    robots.txt is idiotic in this context, except to steer spiders away from forms that shouldn't be submitted or triggering infinite loops. Suppose you find something like:

    User-agent: *
    Disallow: /campaignfinancesecrets/

    Don't you think that's going to be the first place to look? Again, robots.txt is to avoiding causing site meltdowns or stupid behavior. It's not to hide information.

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  9. So what? by Manchot · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Am I the only one who doesn't see a big difference between the two passages? The second one is pretty much just a rewritten, more detailed version of the first one.

    1. Re:So what? by Ihlosi · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Am I the only one who doesn't see a big difference between the two passages? The second one is pretty much just a rewritten, more detailed version of the first one.

      The first one could be read as bashing the military (bad bad bad), the second one can't.

    2. Re:So what? by Eddi3 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not only that, but this is also Obama admitting that the surge worked, which McCain always pushed for...

  10. Mmmhmm by PhoenixFlare · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No doubt Mr. "Vote McCain in 2008!" is looking to score some points with this one.

    I'm not saying everything posted here has to be neutral by any means, but geez, this is pretty transparent.

    1. Re:Mmmhmm by cswiii · · Score: 3, Funny

      I hear that if you accumulate ten McCain Points, you can trade them in for a liver spot.

  11. Why is updating your policy positions bad again? by Reality+Master+201 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why is changing what you have to say a bad thing? If you have a different set of facts or a change in thought, why is it bad to change your opinions?

    And are the edits that the Obama campaign making really significant? I had a look at the differences highlighted in the linked Wired article, and they didn't really look like a significant change in substance.

    So fucking what? Are we really this stupid in our politics that it's now a game of crying "flip-flopper" when you just say more or less the same thing, maybe with a different emphasis?

  12. the third parties are running idiots too..... by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's high time we the people just say no to the corrupt two party system. It's time we got off our lazy asses and learn about the alternatives available outside the corporate-approved "choice" spoon-fed to us by Big Media. Oh sure, probably we'll get either McCain or Obama this time, but if enough people vote outside the box it will encourage others to do the same.

    Just three weeks ago I would have argued with you about this. Then Obama flip-flopped on FISA and voted for a bill containing telecom immunity. In so doing he lost my vote and my support. The only thing I would dispute is that the third parties really offer a better alternative. Consider:

    Bob Barr: Witch-burning religious lunatic that led the impeachment of Bill Clinton and somehow gets to masquerade as a libertarian. Could they really do no better than this guy?
    Ralph Nader: Left-wing crazy that thinks we should nationalize the energy industries (even I don't lean this far to the left) and expand the nanny state.
    McKinney: Don't know a lot about her yet but the initial reading is not very promising. Seems to have a huge chip on her shoulder and is probably at least as far to the left as Nader is.

    I won't be voting for Obama or McCain but I don't see how I can support any of these crazies either. I'll sign their petitions for ballot access if asked but I fear that my vote for POTUS may wind up being blank this year :( I'd love the chance to meet Bob Barr and ask him directly if he's changed his tune on wiccans/neo-pagans -- a satisfactory answer might get him my vote. The others don't stand a chance though.

    --
    I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
    We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    1. Re:the third parties are running idiots too..... by kalirion · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Then Obama flip-flopped on FISA and voted for a bill containing telecom immunity.

      You know, I still don't get the huge deal with the telecom immunity. Yes the telecoms should be punished, at least as a preventative measure so that in the future companies think twice before following illegal government orders. And yet, the truly guilty party are the government officials who made those orders. Why are we so intend to lynch their stooges when the masterminds are getting away scot-free? Are we just settling because we know they're above the law? Isn't there a bit of a double standard here?

      Just try thinking of it from the company's point of view. The government orders them to hand over records. The government obviously shows a disdain for the constitution and considers anyone who stands in their way to be terrorist accomplices. What's going to happen to you when you say 'No'?

    2. Re:the third parties are running idiots too..... by kalirion · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ^ it should be obvious that "hand over records" should be replace with "wiretap people".

    3. Re:the third parties are running idiots too..... by Tom · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just try thinking of it from the company's point of view. The government orders them to hand over records. The government obviously shows a disdain for the constitution and considers anyone who stands in their way to be terrorist accomplices. What's going to happen to you when you say 'No'?

      Congratulations, you have just outlined very concisely why fascism worked. Because everyone made that calculations for themselves, came up with the answer that compliance is the only rational choice, and complied with a system they knew to be evil.

      Well, almost everyone. The rest got killed or exiled by people who were "just following orders".

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    4. Re:the third parties are running idiots too..... by rho · · Score: 5, Informative

      What's going to happen to you when you say 'No'?

      Qwest said "no".

      Qwest actually said, "This is not what a warrant looks like; come back when you have a real warrant."

      It was pretty much the most impressive piece of corporate ballsiness I can recall in recent history.

      --
      Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
    5. Re:the third parties are running idiots too..... by The+Warlock · · Score: 4, Informative

      In Qwest's case, they said "no" and got fucked out of government contracts worth millions. Classified government contracts, too, so they couldn't directly tell their stockholders where all the fucking money went.

      No wonder the other three went along.

      --
      I've upped my standards, so up yours.
    6. Re:the third parties are running idiots too..... by tzhuge · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm not American, so I don't know all that much about the whole thing. However, isn't part of the complaint against telecom immunity due to the fact that it may sabotage any effort to investigate and prosecute government officials?

      You don't want the stooges to have immunity because you want to be able to apply pressure so they incriminate their masters.

    7. Re:the third parties are running idiots too..... by mrogers · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What's going to happen to you when you say 'No'?

      You lose out on lucrative government contracts?

    8. Re:the third parties are running idiots too..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      We can allow telco immunity, but *should* let the market speak for us and move to telco's that didn't comply (Qwest? Maybe others?).

      Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. But strangely enough, where I live, Qwest is not allowed to provide telephone service.

      Really. They have lines that run through here and everything, but they're legally not allowed to provide telephone service.

      So if the telecoms didn't go along with the warrantless wiretaps, apparently the penalty was laws that refused to allow them to provide service.

      And this is in a Democrat-dominated state. Don't think this is just Republicans. Democrats want warrantless wiretaps too, and are willing to punish those who don't give them.

      Wouldn't it be nice if the US actually was a free market and we were allowed to vote with our dollars? Sadly...

    9. Re:the third parties are running idiots too..... by mrchaotica · · Score: 3, Funny

      WTF? Cynthia McKinney is running for President too? Damn, between her and Bob Barr us Georgians sure blew our "nutjob running for President" quota out of the water!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    10. Re:the third parties are running idiots too..... by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Unfortunately, the question is: what happened to them.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    11. Re:the third parties are running idiots too..... by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 2, Funny

      Why don't we start a new party? Left on economic matters, libertarian against the nanny state?

      We can call it... the Forwards Party. Actually, no, that name's cursed. AH! How about the Optimism Party? Ain't nobody can argue with that!

    12. Re:the third parties are running idiots too..... by slashdotlurker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You know, I still don't get the huge deal with the telecom immunity.

      Not trying to channel William Shatner on one of his priceline ads here, but we just lost the only way to find out how, when, why, where our executive branch decided to violate one of the two most important rights in the Bill of Rights, and all you say is this ???

      Just try thinking of it from the company's point of view. The government orders them to hand over records.

      I think that "we were just following orders" has pretty much been blown apart as a valid criminal defense, starting with the Nuremberg trials about 60 years ago. Again, not trying to add to the successes of Godwin's law, but there you have it.

    13. Re:the third parties are running idiots too..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Congratulations, you have just outlined very concisely why fascism worked.

      Why the past tense?

  13. Re:Why is updating your policy positions bad again by Ihlosi · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Why is changing what you have to say a bad thing? If you have a different set of facts or a change in thought, why is it bad to change your opinions?

    Hello, where have you been the last 7 years ? Changing what you say makes you a flip-flopper. Real men stay the course.

  14. Dissonance by maxume · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So let me get this straight, the two biggest issues people have with a candidate are:

    A. He doesn't have enough experience.
    B. He might change his mind.

    (C. is of course, being a secret Muslim)

    If he gets some experience and changes his mind, criticize him for B. If he doesn't get any experience, criticize him for A. Genius.

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    1. Re:Dissonance by Reality+Master+201 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You don't have to apologize for saying something bad about Obama. I hated that decision and I thought it was typical weak Democratic waffling.

      I'm still going to vote for him in November, because basically it's him or McCain. And McCain would be at best an extension of the Bush years, and we frankly just don't need that.

    2. Re:Dissonance by Hatta · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, the biggest issues people have with Obama is that he participated in the whitewashing of the crimes of the Bush administration. That he somehow thinks National Security trumps the Rule of Law. That he even thinks we can have National Security without the Rule of Law. That right there shows that he is totally unfit to govern.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:Dissonance by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And, after FISA, you think Obama is going to be so different? Obama showed us, very clearly, that he believes in the law applying when the government thinks it should apply (by voting for the FISA bill even with the immunity provision). He's the same guy with a different face, you would do just as well voting for either.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    4. Re:Dissonance by Reality+Master+201 · · Score: 2, Informative

      And, after FISA, you think Obama is going to be so different?

      Yes, absolutely he's going to be a better choice - your cynicism aside, McCain is a demonstrably worse candidate than Obama on a variety of issues.

  15. We have unequivocal proof... by languagehacker · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...that someone spending almost all their time going across the country talking to people about different issues actually changed his mind about where he stands on certain topics. As Republicans, this is foreign to us, and upsetting to think about.

    --
    "The enemy knows the system" --Claude Shannon
  16. Silly article writer by wytcld · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The article concludes:

    If anything, the changes simply reflect that Obama is just another politician.

    This is like comparing two drafts of James Joyce's Ulysses, noting that changes were made, and concluding, "If anything, the changes simply reflect that Joyce is just another writer." Keeping in mind that as it happens Obama is also a talented, best-selling author, we should be surprised that he prepares more than on draft, or releases more than one edition of his work?

    In other news, the detection of edits in the latest kernel release prompted a clever Wired hack to print, "If nothing, the changes simply reflect that Torvalds is just another coder."

    --
    "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
  17. Re:Why is updating your policy positions bad again by Spad · · Score: 4, Funny

    Or to put it another way:

    "I may be a fucking moron, but at least I'm consistantly a fucking moron".

  18. it could be worse.... by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... I could have been one of the idiots that voted for the guy I wanted to have a beer with. Twice. How'd that work out again?

    --
    I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
    We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    1. Re:it could be worse.... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I voted for Bush. Twice. The first time because I actually liked him better than Gore, and the second time because I cannot stand John Kerry or John Edwards and thought (and still think) that they would've been even worse. I've been a lifelong Republican because they used to be a conservative party, but this year I'm completely undecided.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    2. Re:it could be worse.... by cptnapalm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Depressing situation isn't it? Conservatism made the Republican Party an actual party rather than the me-tooism of the 40s and 50s. They win the House and Senate for the first time in forty years while running on an unapologetically conservative platform. Bush wins while running as some weird bleeding heart conservative.

      So what do we get?

      Vast increase in federal spending!
      Vast increase in federal power!

      They morphed into a me-too-but-more party.

    3. Re:it could be worse.... by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Vast increase in federal spending!

      That's bad enough but you forgot "while reducing Federal income by slashing taxes" at the end.

      They morphed into a me-too-but-more party.

      Indeed. To quote a friend of mine: I'd rather be a tax and spend Liberal than a borrow and spend Republican. At least the Dems are pretending to have a way to pay for their proposals -- the Republicans just want to put it on the national credit card.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    4. Re:it could be worse.... by Vexar · · Score: 5, Insightful
      So how many times are Republicans forced to vote for a lesser candidate, simply because the desire for at least competent leadership outweighs wanton vote-flushing and "giving it to the other side?" In clear conscience, I should be writing in someone who lost in the primaries. McCain has me on one topic alone: he's pro-nuclear power. This is the 1980 election all over again: energy crisis, problems with Iran (no hostages, at least), the economy is in the tank because of housing (failed mortgages this time, instead of 20% interest rates), the Republican candidate is over 70, the Democrats control Congress, and the Democrat policy positions are vast and above being viewed as not a solution. It reminds me of Jimmy Carter's speech telling America to get used to living with less. The only thing missing is long lines at the gas pump.

      Now all we need is a cable channel called MTV to start playing music videos for the first time, and we will be all set.

    5. Re:it could be worse.... by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 2

      Because Obama is Yet Another Politician who wants to pick your pocket and demand that you like it? His "change" rhetoric is empty (and empty-headed).

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    6. Re:it could be worse.... by SwordsmanLuke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      all we need is a cable channel called MTV to start playing music videos for the first time

      How about YouTube?

      --
      Any plan which depends on a fundamental change in human behavior is doomed from the start.
    7. Re:it could be worse.... by Copid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The other $252 billion of the actual increase in revenues represents growth in excess of GDP growth.

      So the tax cuts stimulated enough increase in federal revenues to outstrip the growth of the GDP by 40%. Lower taxes increased growth in revenue.

      I'm really not sure how to follow this:

      1: Lower taxes raise GDP and increase revenues as a result.
      2: Revenues increased faster than GDP.
      3: Lower taxes increased GDP due to (1).

      From your document:

      As a result, receipts as a share of GDP rose from 16.5 percent in 2003 to 18.4 percent in 2006, an increase of 1.9 percentage points (see Table 1, attached).

      How does taking 18.4% of GDP out in taxes instead of 16.5% qualify as "lowering taxes"? It's an interesting report, but the best conclusion one can draw (and this is tenuous, since we're talking about a lot of things happening over those 3 years) is that "changing who bears the burden of taxation while raising taxes overall can increase tax revenues as a share of GDP." I can buy that.

      --
      An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
  19. McCain trying to hide his flip-flopping by speedtux · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes, Obama is editing his web site and fine-tuning his message. BFD. That's what web sites are for. I don't see anything greatly inconsistent in what Obama is doing.

    What is really going on is that McCain has a lousy record: he has been flip-flopping on positions and has a lot of history that he needs to hide from. This is a huge problem for the Republican party establishment, who probably would have preferred any candidate other than McCain.

    So, what does McCain do? He tries to go on the offensive so that he can say "well, it's OK if I flip-flop because the other guy edits his web site, too".

    Don't let McCain get away with this bullshit. McCain is trying to pull the wool over the eyes of both conservative Republicans and moderates in terms of his actual positions and record.

  20. Re:worked ? by Eddi3 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Such is the nature of this war. What I was referring to was this quote from the article:

    "But military statistics released last week show that violence in the form of attacks, and the number of US casualties in Iraq, are now at a four year low. The attacks and casualties have plummeted from a peak in June 2007, according to those statistics."

    And when did the surge start? From Wikipedia:

    'June 15, 2007: The troop surge operations begin. The U.S. military reports that 28,000 troops required for the surge have arrived in Iraq and that the surge operations can now commence. "All the forces initially identified as part of the surge have completed their strategic movements into theatre in Iraq,"'

    That's the date when the deaths started plummeting.

  21. Re:How can you say Republicans are "old dogs" by Ihlosi · · Score: 4, Insightful
    No plan ever made by Democrats has lifted nearly all of Europe and then Asia out of poverty and into the modern world,

    Who came up with the Marshall Plan again ?

  22. Re:Why is updating your policy positions bad again by Manchot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So fucking what? Are we really this stupid in our politics that it's now a game of crying "flip-flopper" when you just say more or less the same thing, maybe with a different emphasis?

    New words scare people. Just a couple weeks ago, Obama said in a press conference that he'd be willing to "refine" his Iraq policy during his visit there, and a combination of the media and the McCain campaign jumped all over him for "flip-flopping" on Iraq. They were pretending that he had said that he was going to change his stance on the war, and so he had to give a second press conference later that day to emphasize that he had said nothing of the sort.

    The media is trying to have a repeat of 2004 by painting the Democrat as a flip-flopper, when he has only waffled, as all politicians do. Even Obama's worst flip-flop, on the FISA legislation, wasn't a complete reversal: though he voted the final bill, he still voted to strip the immunity provision. He said that he thought the bill had more good than bad in it, and while we might disagree, that's just a matter of priority, not of position.

    Meanwhile, McCain directly contradicts himself time and time again, and he has so far gotten off scot-free. We don't have a liberal media or a conservative media, we have a sensationalist media that caters to the lowest common denominator by trying to place the candidates into a pre-defined mold that has existed for the better part of three decades.

  23. Jesse Ventura only serious contender I can support by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The most tragic thing I've seen in a long time was when Jesse Ventura announced the other night that he wouldn't be running for the Senate. He's truly the only third party candidate with reasonable positions that I can support that has ANY serious chance of ever winning the Presidency. Every day that he stays out of politics is another day being ruled by the 2-party system in this country.

    Every other potential third-party candidate is either some cause-oriented nutjob (a wacko wanting to abolish taxes, a wacko environmentalist, or just a straight-up wacko) and/or someone who has shown no capacity to actually win a serious public office. Ventura isn't a nutball and has actually won serious public offices (leaving office with the highest approval rating of any governor in Minnesota history).

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  24. Re:worked ? by bugg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Everybody knows that if you're fighting an asymmetric war, you make your moves at the time when you can strike and minimize your losses, and you wait patiently at all other times. Anyone who thinks the violence against US targets isn't going to go back up as soon as the surge ends OR it becomes clear by observing US political and military statements and operations that the "surge" is permanent, is kidding themselves.

    I'd also like to point out that it is very unfair and biased to measure violence "in the form of attacks, and the number of US casualties in Iraq" - what about Iraqi causalities? Civilian casualties? Shouldn't those be at least as important, if not more important, now that it's clear the war isn't being fought for WMDs?

    --
    -bugg
  25. Re:Why is updating your policy positions bad again by darkmeridian · · Score: 4, Informative

    John McCain has had his share of flip flops, as document in this Keith Olbermann clip. It's pretty hilarious because the clip ends by reading a statement from McCain that his viewpoints are evolving, and then noting that McCain was for evolution, and now against evolution. It is pretty well done.

    --
    A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
  26. A vote for POTUS is for far more than a POTUS by Ritorix · · Score: 4, Informative

    When you vote for president, you get far more than a president.

    Behind the POTUS candidate comes a legion of people who will set the policy and tone of the nation for years to come. Supreme Court justices, Cabinet members, hundreds of others at every level of government.

    Dont forget what happened at NASA, the EPA, the Justice Department, DHS, etc. All hit the headlines the last few years with major scandals brought on by POTUS-appointed bureaucrats.

    Point being, presidential elections arent about single issues or a single candidate, but a change in national leadership for all issues at all levels. Sometimes you have to hold your nose and vote for the party most closely aligned with the future you desire. Any party will bring in some crazies, its unavoidable.

    1. Re:A vote for POTUS is for far more than a POTUS by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree with all of what you are saying and I've railed against single-issue voters in the past. I can't bring myself to get over this FISA vote though. Beyond telecom immunity this bill guts the FISA court and gives the Executive carte blanche to wiretap without warrants or judicial oversight. Do you talk to anyone overseas on the telephone? Your calls could be monitored at any time without a warrant thanks to this bill. You as an American citizen have effectively had your right against unreasonable search and seizure taken away from you just because you want to communicate with someone outside of our borders.

      Obama swore an oath to defend the Constitution when elected to the Senate. He has now violated that oath. Why should I believe he will take the Presidential Oath seriously? Call me a sentimentalist but I believe that such oaths should be taken seriously. They remind all of us (from the person serving on a jury or testifying as a witness all the way up to the POTUS) that we are a nation of laws and that no one person is above those laws.

      Ironically enough Obama's own statement on this issue explains my concerns far more eloquently then I can: "It grants retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies that may have violated the law by cooperating with the Bush Administration's program of warrantless wiretapping. This potentially weakens the deterrent effect of the law and removes an important tool for the American people to demand accountability for past abuses."

      Indeed. Who knew that giving retroactive immunity for past violations of the law would weaken the deterrent effect of the law? His own statement provides ample justification for opposing this law -- yet he supported it anyway? WTF?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
  27. robots.txt by sunking2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm sorry, but if politicians can call me when I'm on the do not call list, then why should spiders adhere to the robots.txt file.

  28. Numbers? by XanC · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm pretty sure that federal revenue goes up when taxes are cut.

    1. Re:Numbers? by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That must explain why the national deficit has skyrocketed under GWB.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    2. Re:Numbers? by DavidTC · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And everyone else is pretty sure you're stupid.

      Funny how that works when you believe something there's no evidence for, and has never been any evidence of.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    3. Re:Numbers? by XanC · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's a spending problem (and a big one), not a revenue problem.

    4. Re:Numbers? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That must explain why the national deficit has skyrocketed under GWB.

      It's my understanding that tax cuts really do increase revenue, but I'm not insistent on either position. The big problem with GWB is that he never met a government program he didn't like. Say the tax cuts raised revenue 5% for sake of illustration. You can't then increase spending by 25% and then wonder why you're losing ground.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    5. Re:Numbers? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 5, Informative

      The theory is based on the Laffer curve. At a 0% tax rate, revenue will obviously be zero. At some arbitrarily high tax rate (100%? 1000%? 100,000%?), there's such a strong disincentive to earn money that revenue will also be zero. Given two zero crossings, you have an optimizable function of tax rate vs. revenue.

      In short, some groups of intelligent people think that the tax rate is higher than the optimal value, and other intelligent people think it's lower than it should be. It's not inherently idiotic to imagine how tax cuts could in fact increase revenue.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    6. Re:Numbers? by EastCoastSurfer · · Score: 4, Informative

      Then let's cut taxes to zero and have INFINITE MONEY.

      Damn, I hate this idiotic meme. Tax revenue goes up over time due to inflation. Stop trying to give credit to tax cuts. Try taking that logic with your own finances before you try shoving it on the rest of the country. "Hey honey, I'm going to ask my boss to give me a pay cut so we have more money!"

      You're being the idiot. Taxes are a balancing act. Move them too high and you stop consumption which then lowers overall revenue. People like to feel like they are getting value when they buy something. If you tax it so much that value is no longer noticed people quit buying things. If you lower them, then people can (and will) buy more stuff which increases revenue. It's not a hard concept to understand, and there are numbers to prove it.

      Your analogy doesn't work. A better one is a company that sells some cool widget for $100. At $100 only 10 people buy it and make the company $1000. The widget is really cool and people want it, but they don't see the value at $100. So the company lowers the price to $10 and now sells 1,000 of the widgets and make the company $10,000. OMG, how did they make more money selling the widget for less??? Maybe they should give it away make infinite amounts of money. I know this is tough logic to follow, but sheesh...

    7. Re:Numbers? by Machtyn · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is a nice little curve that demonstrates his point. Let's take your example the other way, let's raise taxes 100% and have INFINITE MONEY. Where that optimum point on that curve is debated.

      The point is, by letting the people have more money to do with what they want, they build commerce and increase federal coffers because people are spending more (which items purchased are taxed) and making more (expanding commerce), thus the increase of making more = more taxes.

      Your point is noted in that lowering taxes too much will be of no use. However, the more you raise taxes, especially if the money is going into social programs, will only create a lazy, dependent society and commerce, and taxes, dies.

      I wish I had mod points for XanC

    8. Re:Numbers? by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not inherently idiotic to imagine how tax cuts could in fact increase revenue

      It's not "idiotic" but some of the more rapid free-market types repeat it as though it is a physical law of the universe. In the case of the last eight years we've tried to combine spending increases and the need to fund two wars with massive tax cuts on the rich. How well has that worked out for us?

      How can we send our sons and daughters off to war while asking for no sacrifices from the civilian population? Well, other than the "sacrifice" of asking people to continue to spend and consume to pump up the economy that is. Can you imagine FDR responding to Pearl Harbor by asking people to go to the shopping mall and refusing to increase taxes to help pay for the war?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    9. Re:Numbers? by EastCoastSurfer · · Score: 5, Informative

      In the case of the last eight years we've tried to combine spending increases and the need to fund two wars with massive tax cuts on the rich.

      I don't argue that spending is out of control and something that should be slowed down a lot, but I have an issue with the tax cuts on the 'rich'*. The only places that taxes can be cut is on the rich* b/c they are the only ones paying taxes! From here:

      In 2005, the top 5 percent of taxpayers paid more than one half (59.7 percent) of all individual income taxes, and the top 1 percent paid 39.4 percent; and
      Taxpayers who rank in the top 50 percent of taxpayers by income pay virtually all individual income taxes. In 2005, they paid 96.9 percent of all individual income taxes.

      So when we cut taxes who else do you want to cut them on? Or are you talking more about income redistribution. The whole take money from those who have it and hand it out to those who don't?

      * what defines 'rich'?

    10. Re:Numbers? by spiffyman · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Heritage Foundation? You're joking, right?

      Not that the linked graph isn't a brilliant piece of research, but let's be honest about the climate we're in. If I told you that the Center for American Progress disagrees, would you care? Would you even take it seriously?

      To be fair, your graph is based on data from the CBO, which was already Democrat-controlled when the report was released. On the other hand, it's without context. That is, how have domestic income tax receipts decreased in the same period?

      Moreover, if you'll recall, we've experienced a general economic recovery since that time -- until relatively recently -- which may or may not be due to the tax cuts. (I think we can guess where each other's intuitions lie here.) There's no obvious reason to take the correlation between tax cuts and corporate income tax receipts as a causal indicator. Plenty of other options abound.

      --
      So you can laugh all you want to...
    11. Re:Numbers? by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I won't get into a debate with you about 'income redistribution'. I think it's a loaded phrase used by certain members of the right in a thinly veiled attempt to use communism/socialism to discredit those that disagree with the GOP's ideas for taxation. All I'll say is that I don't see how spending money on roads, education, the military, etc, etc qualifies as "income redistribution". Personally I haven't seen a dime of money "re-distributed" into my pocket.

      Besides which the main theme of my post was bemoaning the fact that we've asked for zero sacrifice from the American people even as we are involved in a two front war with no clear path to victory. During WW2 the highest tax rate reached 94%. Ninety-four percent. And yet Bush refuses to even consider reversing his tax cuts to pay for the war? WTF?

      We are mortgaging our future to China and Japan because nobody in Washington had the political backbone to ask the American people to step up and do their part. Do you really think that the American people wouldn't have accepted a call for sacrifice in the months after 9/11? WTF was GWB thinking?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    12. Re:Numbers? by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's my understanding that tax cuts really do increase revenue,

      The late, great Steve Kangas takes that myth on with statistics.

      --
      No, she's fine. My associate is vomiting for a totally unrelated reason.
    13. Re:Numbers? by dkleinsc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your understanding is a myth propagated by Arthur Laffer, and embraced wholeheartedly by Reagan (which as a sibling post points out didn't work).

      The theory was that if taxes are too high, then people who might be motivated to work more won't because too much of it will be taken away by Uncle Sam, and thus the overall GDP would drop down so much that the added percentage wouldn't be enough to make up the difference. This resulted in the so-called Laffer Curve.

      Unfortunately, the relationship that Laffer asserted was a smooth parabolic curve actually looks more like this:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Neo-Laffer-Curve.svg

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    14. Re:Numbers? by SETIGuy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's my understanding that tax cuts really do increase revenue, but I'm not insistent on either position.

      We (as voters) shouldn't believe everything we are told, especially by someone running for office. Which could have something to do with the mess we're in.

      The last decent study I recall reading (in Science a couple years back, IIRC) concluded that at current US marginal tax rates using the most optimistic projections for how tax rates effect growth, each dollar in tax cuts results in at least 60 cents in lost revenue.

      Not to mention that there is a problem with the assumption that tax rates can be a useful tool to control economic growth. Interest rates are a far easier tool with which to control growth (although not without their own limits).

      When you lower tax rates more money is available for economic activity, that increases growth rates which prompts the Federal Reserve to raise interest rates in order to control growth and avoid inflation. For the average person with significant debt, the rate increase could more than eat the tax reduction. Worse, since the government is the biggest debtor, payments on the federal debt go up. Those increased payments go the those that hold the debt. To some extent that is American companies that hold bonds which could have a positive effect if that makes those companies more likely to invest, but a significant portion goes to foreign creditors, China, Japan, Canada and Great Brittan. Any effect of additional investment by creditors in the US might prompt the Federal Reserve to again increase interest rates.

      So to a significant degree any income tax reduction funnels substantial money away from the federal government and towards banks and creditor nations. For the average citizen it's probably a wash. Their taxes go down, but they send more to Citibank to cover their debts.

      In the real world there is probably an optimum marginal tax rate that depends upon a huge number of factors. I'm sure economists get into fist fights about what that number is. I can easily prove that it's not 0% and that it's not 100%. Below the optimum rate, reductions in taxes would tend to reduce revenues. Above the optimum rate, increases in taxes would tend to reduce revenues. If the earlier study is correct, that would suggest that our current tax rates might be below the optimum rate.

  29. Can I assume that McCain by teamhasnoi · · Score: 2, Funny

    had help?

  30. Good point. by tjstork · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Who came up with the Marshall Plan again

    Democrats did, and here's the thing. Most of the "Reagan Republicans" and their intellectual descendants fondly remember when Democrats actually did embark on big visions and big crusade to try and make the world a place for free trade, free from tyranny. That old, old conservative isolationist wing of the Republican Party is basically a small minority.

    What really happened is that Democrats completely lost their nerve after Viet Nam. Instead of looking at the war, and saying that they made some mistakes in its execution, and in fact, had actually started to turn things around once Westmoreland was replaced by Abrams, they have instead enshrined an ethic that lacks any sort of faith in the very government to do anything other than redistribute wealth.

    I mean, Democrats are to be forever saluted for what they did from the 1940s through the 1960s. A lot of their ideas didn't work, but some did, and, we got the victory in World War II, built a national infrastructure that we've been living off of for 50 years, and put a man on the moon. They built a framework to stand against Soviet aggression and deftly avoided a world war without undermining American resolve. But, today's Democrats tend to reject a lot of that. Back in the 1960s, the Democrats who wanted NASA cut to pay for the poor were squelched, now they run the show. Today, the very idea of going to the moon, let alone mars, is considered to be just a handout, when it really, it is a project that harnesses the finest minds of the country towards a peaceful, momentus, national goal.

    I would be willing to bet that if, in fact, a more muscular foreign policy candidate, one who really could articulate the American vision of free trade through Pax Americana, expansively, in the way that FDR and his ideological descendant, Reagan could, I would certainly support them, and, in fact, just about every Republican I know -would-. But instead today's Democratic party is consumed with identity politics and redistribution, sorta trying to divvying up the spoils but without the old Dems that still saw a need to get spoils to divvy.

    Unfortunately though, through a catastrophe of party rules, Dems have a process that continually nominates the candidate who kowtows to a group of people that are in the minority. Republicans have a similar problem too, but, they at least have the sense to tend to set aside other policy differences so long as the free trade expansionist vision stands.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:Good point. by StevenMaurer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What really happened is that Democrats completely lost their nerve after Viet Nam.

      No. What happened was that after they lost their war-of-choice in Vietnam, Republicans then sold the American public the idea that their own democratically elected government was the enemy. (Wave the flag, hate what it represents.) And persuaded them to slash taxes - largely on the mega rich.

      The national infrastructure you so rightly laud cost money to build. A lot of it. That money came from taxes. Putting a man on the moon also wasn't free. With the advent of "Reaganomics", both parties had to drop non-critical programs. And guess what? To most people, keeping crooks off the street and kids from starving is more important than space exploration. So when Reagan, aided by conservative Democrat turned Republican Phil Gramm, slashed taxes on billionaires, that's what both Democrats and Republicans focused on.

      The absurdity of your position is lauding the very man who brought about the destruction of America's position of leadership in the world: Ronald Reagan, and his ideological descendant, George W. Bush.

      Nobody is going to follow the leadership of a nation that refuses to take care of its own people.

  31. I'll think of a subject later. Oh, wait... by Aphoxema · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I find it interesting that everything involved with a politician is the politician. I'm very doubtful he writes the website himself and he might not really have much of a say on what happens on that web site.

    An editor might have, probably have come along and saw "This looks bad, let's make it look better." and since it's not an image that was a little too big to fit right or formatting that just didn't fit with the page, it's seen as 'Obama said this' and not 'supporters glossing things over'.

    I guess you can say that the kind of people who support someone else does reflect on what kind of person they are, but it's the same logical fallacy that happens over and over again.

    Obama did what he did, and even though it went against his former statements to some degree, he didn't say "Oh, that? That was nothing.", he said exactly what he did and why he did it.

    He didn't break any promises, he made a compromise he really seems to believe is important and he did make assurances that his fight for the interests is not over yet. He didn't undo anything, he just delayed (for that WHOLE SINGLE VOTE out of quite a majority) what's going to happen later.

    He probably knew this would happen, too. If you try to make everyone happy, you end up making nobody happy.

    I'm voting Obama, He's not the golden ticket to the perfect country but asking for a perfect person is always asking too much. His positions do involve change, but it's not such an incredible change that all the corporations will be out to stop him no matter what it takes.

    We need universal healthcare, but we won't have it in 4 years. No nationwide change happens that fast (unless an explosion is involved). What we need now is to take the steps towards changing people's expectations in the system.

    There's hundreds of issues we need to consider in three months, is it really so responsible to throw Obama away for one?

    I mean, Christ, was everyone planning on voting for him in the first place because he was going to stick it to the telecom man?

    --
    "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
  32. Vote Third or Fourth Party by Morosoph · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As a fellow Brit, it's almost ontopic to reply here :p

    I wrote a JE a while back, asking people to vote third or fourth party, even if they could "make do" with one of the "main" parties. The interesting thing is that reasons to do so do not rely upon faith!

    A number a years back, I did some campaigning for the Liberal Democrats; I no longer consider myself to be party political, but their campaign techniques were interesting. The most interesting was the "reverse squeeze". The way that that works is that the Lib Dems would go after either Labour or the Tories, whichever had the fewest votes in the seat. Once their support went down, the numbers voting for the other team would come down in roughly equal numbers.

    In other words, one vote fewer for one of the main parties implies approximately one fewer votes for the other one. Because voters can sense the political equilibrium, your own decision to deny the main parties your vote for a better personal choice is essentially costless! Better still, your vote is amplified (although they might instead choose to vote for another small party).

    Not only is your change of vote essentially costless, but also you get to send a signal both to voters and to your future representative. The voters get to see a change in the support of your chosen party which is bigger than the signal would have been if cast for one of the main ones. Your representive receives a signal as to how best to win your vote the next time around.

    The only reasons not to vote for a smaller party are if you are better represented by one of the main parties, or else if you think that competition is a harmful force in politics, and would rather give a clearer "mandate" to the winner. American voters seem to act like this, with later voters preferring to strengthen the early vote, and it can even make a kind of sense if a "strong nation" is more important to you than democracy.

    The flip side to the last observation is that if you're in the US, vote early. Others will then copy your vote, so in a sense, you get to "vote early, vote often".

  33. Re:Jesse Ventura only serious contender I can supp by DavidTC · · Score: 2, Informative

    Everyone believes in UFOs, you nimrod. Anything in the sky you can't identify is a UFO.

    About the only way to disbelieve in UFOs is to disbelieve that people might not know what they're seeing, that everyone has perfect knowledge of everything up there. Because otherwise it is clearly possible that people could see things in the sky they cannot identify.

    Jimmy Carter does not, however, believe they are aliens. He's never suggested such, and in fact has very specifically stated he does not believe aliens have ever visited this planet. He believes it was a craft from a nearby military base.

    I have no idea what you're talking about Clinton and Oswald. The only logical thing I can think of is that Clinton requested any documents from the Russians they had about the Kennedy assassination.

    Which, if anything, demonstrates the opposite of what you said...that Clinton thought Oswald did it, working for the Russians. Or, alternately, he wanted to put the theory the Russians were involved to rest. Or, on the third hand, he just wanted to use the US's and Russia's new friendship to grab some documents for future historians. (There were a lot of such requests being made, in both directions, especially about pet conspiracy theories that the CIA or KGB had about their opposing organization's involvement in specific things.)

    I can't imagine how you got 'He thinks Oswald didn't do it' out of that, but that's the only connection between him and Oswald I can even find.

    --
    If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  34. McCain is not like Bush where it matters -spending by SuperKendall · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And McCain would be at best an extension of the Bush years, and we frankly just don't need that.

    Yes that's the meme you're being told to spread. But it simply isn't so where it counts - spending.

    Both Republicans and Democrats have gone wild spending, and Bush has done nothing to reign them in. McCain swore off all earmarks last year and stuck to it. McCain is the only candidate right now who I feel has a shot at actually getting some earmark reduction in place, as he's been on a number of truly bi-partisan efforts before.

    You want the war to end? Elect someone trying to save money instead of spend it. Can't save much money with a lot of troops in the field.

    You don't want new wars to start? Electing someone fiscally prudent might just be a good plan. It's not like Obama isn't making noises about putting more troops into Afghanistan either you know, but he may go a little more crazy with it just to "prove himself".

    If you want a change from Bush, take a REAL look at what CAN be changed and who is for it.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  35. Re:Why is updating your policy positions bad again by DavidTC · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Exactly. The FISA thing disappoints me, but, OTOH, I have to accept I was sorta projecting 'He will hold Bush accountable' onto Obama, when he's really said nothing of the sort.

    Of course, just because he hasn't said that, and doesn't plan on doing that...simply appointing non-Bush-cronies to investigative positions would result in some accountability.

    I was hoping that Obama would sweep and empty the trash of the Bush administration onto the street in view of everyone, but, frankly, he's still a much better choice than McCain even if he's not. And I have to wonder how many people suggesting otherwise are not actually McCain supporters.

    --
    If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  36. Another libertarian here... by Firethorn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Don't forget that we're almost as disparate a bunch as the republicans or democrats.

    Unlike MBGMorden, I really don't like the democrat idea of social services. But my ideas on how to 'fix' various problems aren't what the republicans want either.

    To Republicans: Stop trying to push your morality down my throat
    To Democrats: Stop trying to ban my stuff and take my money

    To both parties: Balance the budget(several states have done it!), stop the huge waste of money that is the drug war, legalize prostitution while you're at it*. Stop handing subsidies out left and right. Stop the tendency to control state governments by the circle of taking money from a state's citizens, then making the local government agencies(such as schools) apply to get their own people's money back.

    *"I've never understood why prostitution is illegal. Selling is legal. Why isn't selling sex legal? Why should it be illegal to sell something that's legal to give away?" - George Carlin

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  37. Re:mod what by ameyer17 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why "underrated" was an appropriate choice here

    I'm not saying it's an appropriate choice here, but as I understand it, overrated and underrated aren't subject to metamoderation

  38. robots.txt and the memory hole by otis+wildflower · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For something like a political or news website, I think it's eminently fair for crawlers to make periodic snapshots to prevent candidates or journalists from being able to retcon themselves to present a false lack of hypocrisy.

    It's only when it goes from 'periodic' to 'DoS' that it becomes dirty pool IMHO.

  39. OT: That's completely false and misleading. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Ugh. No. You're so wrong I don't know where to start.

    Slavery is anathema to libertarian ideology, because it allows one person to impinge on the rights of another. That's a fundamentally Bad Thing; in fact the whole point of libertarianism is the maximization of personal freedom, up to the point where your freedom to do something starts impinging on someone else's.

    Basically you've constructed a straw man and then proceeded to tear it down; congratulations. It's a good argument except that it has nothing to do with any actual libertarians that I've ever met, nor the positions of either the Libertarian party or the other similar state-level parties.

    If you want to criticize libertarian theory, that's fine -- there are many valid critiques of it. But saying that it advocates or legitimizes slavery is just false and stupid, and a great way of advertising your own ignorance.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:OT: That's completely false and misleading. by somersault · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I thought he was more pointing out that by getting rid of certain laws, you'd be letting those with money do whatever the hell they wanted, which would result in the unwashed masses being treated kind of like slaves. I don't think he meant actual slaves, more like extremely cheap labour. I'm not going to say whether I think that would happen or not because I haven't looked into libertarianism, I'm just trying to point out what you seem to have overlooked.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    2. Re:OT: That's completely false and misleading. by theJavaMan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And this is different from the current state of the world how?

    3. Re:OT: That's completely false and misleading. by BrainInAJar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      outlandish or not, it's a reductio ad absurdum for the whole libertarian notion that everyone can be completely equal (don't mean economically... ) and free.

      Governments wield a lot of power. Take them out of the picture, and economics will self-organize to another group having a lot of power, if only by virtue that they make a lot of money and continue to make more until the point that they wield enough economic power to be de-facto government organizations

    4. Re:OT: That's completely false and misleading. by Guido+del+Confuso · · Score: 4, Insightful

      THAT'S your objection to libertarianism?! That someone might head a vast conspiracy to destroy your life?

      You may want to invest in some tinfoil, my friend.

      Besides, there are still social services available in a libertarian society. They're just provided by charity rather than government. And as organizations such as The Salvation Army and Goodwill show, it is quite possible to run such charities as non-governmental private organizations.

    5. Re:OT: That's completely false and misleading. by Leftist+Troll · · Score: 2, Insightful

      there are still social services available in a libertarian society. They're just provided by charity rather than government.

      Yes, it makes perfect sense for the destitute to rely on the whims of the rich to eat that day. I can't see how that could possibly go wrong.

      "Please sir, can I have some more?"

  40. Lies about Libertarianism by mi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Libertarianism is about the freedom to own slaves.

    You would certainly be able to indenture yourself, if you choose to — to anyone, who would want such a thing from you.

    99% of people who support libertarianism will end up being serfs if their plans ever succeeds

    Serfdom (and the outright slavery) disappeared, not because of laws or regulations, but because it was inefficient. Re-read your Marx-volume. As the means of production evolve, the uninterested slaves' labor falls further and further behind in value — despite being cheaper — than that of motivated free workers.

    So stop this "slavery" fear-mongering, and smears. For decades the country's policy-makers have been moving away from Libertarianism despite most Americans being in the Libertarian corner of the politics. The results, to name the most obvious are:

    1. the insurmountably complex tax-code, the cost of which is hurting us more and more
    2. insane amounts of red-tape, hurting both businesses and consumers alike;
    3. a large public-welfare system (belovingly known as "safety net") which is now able to sustain itself through votes of millions of beneficiaries and hundreds of thousands of governments employees busying themselves with the process of handing out taxpayers' monies. Politicians used to appeal to the compassion of the givers — nowadays they increasingly aim directly for the greed of the receivers as the more numerous segment of the voters.

    And all you can say against that is nonsense like: "Libertarians want to bring back slavery"?.. Pathetic...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Lies about Libertarianism by spun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, you can't do that in any country right now. Most countries have a constitution and laws preventing such a thing. Way to display your ignorance.

      As you are so ignorant, I feel it necessary to point out that I don't mean actual slavery so much as complete economic subjugation of the poor, which is something the rich have always worked towards and continue to work towards. And you libertards are the useful idiots who spread their propaganda.

      Slavery is not as prevalent today because of the hard work and sacrifice of so many rights activists around the world, not because of market forces. And it does exist, especially in places with more libertarian policies than the US. Millions of people around the world are enslaved right now. Your lack of knowledge and callous disregard for enslaved peoples world wide is simply shocking.

      It is certainly economically feasible to have a work force that has no other options but to work for you at whatever level of compensation you decide upon. It is quite feasible to use economic force to keep a population dependent on you. It is absolutely feasible to create monopoly and monopsony through economic means.

      In libertopia, If I own the land you live on, I can say 'you may only travel on designated parts of my land.' I can legally imprison you, decide who can sell things to you, and decide who you can sell things to.

      You can't leave, because that would be trespassing. Anyone wanting to sell to you would have to trespass. And that is quite profitable for the land owners, now isn't it.

      Please try to refute my actual arguments rather than straw men, and please refrain from posting false information, and perhaps I won't have to repeat myself.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    2. Re:Lies about Libertarianism by stephanruby · · Score: 4, Informative

      You can't leave, because that would be trespassing.

      Legal trespass has many exceptions

      For instance, it's not trespass if a surveyor is going through your land. And it's not trespass if you're not home and your neighbors come on your property to fight a fire.

      Many rules have exceptions. Advocating the Libertarian position doesn't mean that you'd throw common sense out of the window, on the contrary.

  41. consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds by mounthood · · Score: 2, Informative

    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. – 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' – Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emerson

    --
    tomorrow who's gonna fuss
  42. Re:libertarian with a lowercase "l" by Disfnord · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Leave it to a libertarian to call poverty a "lifestyle choice."

  43. Qwest's legal problems predate the NSA's request. by jmichaelg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Qwest's legal problems predate the NSA's circulating access requests to the telcos in the Fall of 2001.

    The insider case that Nacchio, Qwest's CEO, claims he's being punished for, goes back to the dot-com bust when Qwest execs realized they weren't going to hit revenue projections. They started dumping stock and fraudulently shifting revenue to cover up the shortfall. Again, this all happened prior to the NSA asking for data.

    The company has a history of engaging in illegal activity. In 2001, they paid an additional $350,000 fine on top of the June, 2000 $1.5 million fine they paid the FCC for slamming users. The slamming complaints started in the 90's.

    Nacchio's blowing smoke by playing the role of NSA's victim.

  44. Freedom to be a slave isn't freedom by Nerdposeur · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You would certainly be able to indenture yourself, if you choose to -- to anyone, who would want such a thing from you.

    Isn't it a valid criticism that if you're free to "voluntarily" indenture yourself, you're also open to being coerced? If someone says "be my slave and tell everyone it's voluntary, or I'll kill your family," what will you do?

    Whereas currently, if the government sees that you're not getting proper wages for your work, it's taken out of your hands. You don't have the right to give up your rights - they're "inalienable."

    Sometimes taking away certain freedoms actually protect others. If I travel abroad with an aid organization, and they have a policy to never negotiate with terrorists, and I'm kidnapped, my supervisors don't have the freedom to negotiate. On the other hand, this policy will probably prevent many kidnappings, increasing the actual freedom of life and limb for our staff.

  45. Re:libertarian with a lowercase "l" by ArsonSmith · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In the US, yes it is a lifestyle choice. Perhaps not the choice of "I want to live in poverty" but the choice being "I want to spend more than I make" or "I want to drink heavily and not go to work" or "I want to live in this same place that floods every year because thats where I've always lived" or "I want to continue using " or "I'm from the south side yo and that's where I'm staying" or "I'm going to continue to have child after child" or "I'm disabled and not going to go fill out my disability paperwork" or "I'm not going to work for someone else. I'll do my own thing" (and never do.)

    In some places people are physically and politically oppressed to the point where they can't escape poverty. In the US it is a choice.

    --
    Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
  46. Change when presented new information by GoodNicksAreTaken · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why is it not okay for a candidate to change their position? I'd prefer a candidate that when we put a man on the moon changes his position on which celestial bodies revolve around the others even if he flip flops on the issue. It took the Catholics almost 400 years (~1610-1992) to accept that the earth was not the center of the universe. I hope the current Republican theocracy can extract head from anus more quickly. The first candidate that says, "I don't know" or "I was wrong" has my vote.

  47. While you're considering that... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Good/Bad (they'll assign one of those to Republican or Democrat, and the other to the left over party)

    Maybe I'm just one of those simplistic morons... but what if one of the parties actually is evil?

    While you're considering that, consider this:

    What if BOTH of those parties actually are evil?

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  48. Baby boomers by huckamania · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's not demoncats or repugnicans, it is the worthless, pampered, greedy and self-centered Baby Boomers.

    Worst. Generation. Ever.

    I used to worry that they would destroy the US but they are so incompetent that I sleep fine now. We just have to out live them and then maybe we can start solving problems and stop being victims.

  49. Democratic control of congress by lupine · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They technically have control of congress, but their control of the senate is only by one vote:
    Joe Lieberman - who is currently campaigning for mccain, angling for the vice presidential slot on the republican ticket.

    So in reality democrats don't have a filibuster proof majority in the senate and they cant override a presidential veto in the senate. They could introduce articles of impeachment in the house, but they would never be able to get the majority they need in the senate. So they could impeach bush, but there is very little hope of actually removing him from power.

    But I am as disappointed as anyone that impeachment hasn't been "on the table" and that congressmen who are willing to hold this administration accountable are in the minority, but it is better than the republican controlled congress of 2000-2006.

    1. Re:Democratic control of congress by lupis42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not saying they have absolute control or anything, but seriously, why did that FISA crap pass? Why haven't we gotten the PATRIOT act repealed yet? Why the hell haven't we started pushing laws reducing the power of the executive branch?

  50. Re:Fascism by DesScorp · · Score: 2, Informative

    "You desperately need history classes."

    I have a degree in it, thanks.

    Recall that once Hitler and Mussolini gained power, they outlawed all opposing parties... and then murdered their opponents.

    I don't recall Bush instituting one-party rule. I don't seem to recall Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid being sent to a concentration camp. I also seem to recall a peaceful transfer of power when his competitors won power in the Congress in 2006. No coup's in site.

    May I dare suggest that, in addition to some reading of your own, you might need a little perspective.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel