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Apple Climbs Into Third Place In U.S. PC Market

Tibor the Hun writes "According to Gartner and IDC, Apple now has between 7.8 and 8.5% of market share. While those numbers are not astonishing, they are not insignificant, and their growth does not seem to be slowing down. Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption? Hard to tell, but it's good to see that normal people (not just us geeks) are choosing to go with a different OS, rather than staying with the headache-inducing Windows."

162 of 1,019 comments (clear)

  1. Normal People? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Funny

    Hard to tell, but it's good to see that normal people (not just us geeks) are choosing to go with a different OS, rather than staying with the headache-inducing Windows."

    And since when have Apple users been considered "normal" around here?

    Or did you really mean 'orthogonal'

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    1. Re:Normal People? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      @sig: Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries!

    2. Re:Normal People? by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not to mention, what's with the flamebait shot at the end of the summary? Headache-inducing Windows? First, anyone who can't get Windows to run decently should be turning in their geek card already. Second, those kind of cheap shots are the things which start flame wars, I'm not sure how it deserves to be in TFS.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    3. Re:Normal People? by Foofoobar · · Score: 4, Funny

      First, anyone who can't get Windows to run decently should be turning in their geek card already...

      I'm sorry but anyone who can run Windows and has been ISSUED a geek card should turn it in immediately.

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
    4. Re:Normal People? by paroneayea · · Score: 5, Insightful

      anyone who can't get Windows to run decently should be turning in their geek card already.

      Really? Seriously?

      Okay. I can get windows to run. Really, I can. That doesn't mean it isn't a fucking pain in the ass, a terrible user experience, and a waste of resources. Sorry, I have plenty of reasons to get headaches from windows. Not being geeky enough to handle it isn't one them.

      --
      http://mediagoblin.org/
    5. Re:Normal People? by Dirk+Pitt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Since when is M$ bashing flamebait on slashdot? Are you new here?

      And just because most of us can maintain a windows box doesn't mean we like it - my mechanic maintains my old Land Rover, but it certainly induces headaches.

    6. Re:Normal People? by eln · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just because you CAN run Windows doesn't mean you do. In most cases, all it takes to run Windows is to pop in the disk and let it install, and things just work. However, much like hitting yourself with a hammer, just because it's easy doesn't make it a good idea.

    7. Re:Normal People? by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Since when is M$ bashing flamebait on slashdot? Are you new here?

      Commonly accepted flamebait, but flamebait nonetheless.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    8. Re:Normal People? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Okay. I can get Ubuntu to run. Really, I can. That doesn't mean it isn't a fucking pain in the ass, a terrible user experience, and refuses to recognize the built-in card reader. Sorry, I have plenty of reasons to get headaches from Linux. Not being geeky enough to handle it isn't one them."

      What what whaaaaaaat? I'm not allowed to demonstrate you can use that argument for -any- operating suite?

      On the up side, the above wouldn't apply to OS X unless I got a clone machine *smirk*

    9. Re:Normal People? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's be eldeberries. @ColdWetDog: Apple users are considered normal, but Apple isn't. Hate the sin not the sinner kinda.

      Are you sure you have that one right? Macs these days are basically Intel boxes with blinky keyboards and bog standard innards (OK, the MacPro innards are pretty neat but memory card risers have been around since at least S-100 bus days).

      It's the Mac users that are bat-shit insane (absent myself, of course - I'm OK, just ask my dog).

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    10. Re:Normal People? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Second, those kind of cheap shots are the things which start flame wars, I'm not sure how it deserves to be in TFS

      Flame war == more comments == more page hits == more ad impressions.

      Besides, instigating an MS-bashing comment flood is like firing up your favorite game and playing through it in 'easy' mode.

      So once in a while, even though it's been done before, we get to have an anti-MS free for all, because it's easy. And fun.

      My favorite part are the people who complain about trollish summaries, because I get to imagine how their panties got in such a tight knot. :)

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    11. Re:Normal People? by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I argue that it's actually impossible to get Windows to run decently no matter how much of a geek you are because the software is written poorly and is designed to annoy the user.

      Ah, counterexamples, the one useful function of anecdotal evidence. I run Vista beautifully. It doesn't get in my way, it runs the software I want it to, it just works. So yes, it is possible. Without much effort, either, I might add.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    12. Re:Normal People? by kramer2718 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Hard to tell, but it's good to see that normal people (not just us geeks) are choosing to go with a different OS, rather than staying with the headache-inducing Windows."

      And since when have Apple users been considered "normal" around here?

      Or did you really mean 'orthogonal'

      Apple users are definitely wacky. I bought a MacBook recently because of the stability, ease of administration, nice kernel, reasonable dev environment, etc.

      Now I can't stand it. The Apple GUI is a piece of shit. They have gone to weird symbols in their GUI instead of nice buttons with labels.

      Example: I needed to add a user. I bought up the little user management app and didn't see any add user button. After a short Google, I found that to add a user, you click the small plus sign at the bottom. Maybe I should have figured that out without Googling, but it sure didn't seem obvious at the time.

      It seems like Apple is generally going for a pretty interface over a useful interface. That may impress some people but it drives me batshit. The only question now is whether to put KDE on top of OS X or put some Linux Distro on it.

      I heard so many great reviews of Mac and now I'm looking at having paid too much money for a Linux notebook ... sigh.

    13. Re:Normal People? by mark72005 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I consider myself a brand whore first and batshit insane second.

    14. Re:Normal People? by AP31R0N · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So what are you doing wrong? XP works beautifully for me and everyone i know. Worked really well for the 100+ users and 150+ machines for which i was sys admin.

      Also, learn the difference between facts and opinions.

      --
      Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
    15. Re:Normal People? by ByOhTek · · Score: 4, Funny

      I did, he said

      *sniff* *sniff* *snarl* *growl* *bark* *growl* *bite*

      I didn't hear the rest, I was rather distracted from the blood oozing from my arm. Sorry.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    16. Re:Normal People? by truthsearch · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I converted to Macs a few years ago and found the OS X interface to be the most intuitive I've ever used. The plus and minus signs at the bottom of lists seems obviously to imply add and remove.

      Windows always took me a while to learn the nuances. And then another version with a changed interface would force me to learn the changes. But with OS X I typically just ask myself how something should work and there it is, right where I'd expect it.

      So far I've found that most people's issues with learning the OS X interface is actually unlearning another interface.

    17. Re:Normal People? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You didn't see the "?" button on the Accounts pane? Clicking that clearly outlines what you need to know.

      The "+" and "-" and similar buttons are used almost universally and consistently throughout Mac OS X, Apple applications and 3rd party applications.

      It isn't about being pretty but consistent and directly useful/discoverable without clutter.

    18. Re:Normal People? by kellyb9 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't disagree with a single point that you made (except maybe for the way you made them). But I have to admit, I've had little to no trouble with MY Windows machine. It's always when I have to fix someone elses that I start to get the usual headaches.

    19. Re:Normal People? by Maaras · · Score: 2, Funny

      It wasn't "obvious" to you that to *add* a user you'd click the button with the international symbol for mathematical *addition* on it?

    20. Re:Normal People? by WilyCoder · · Score: 3, Informative

      Please give us an update in about a month or so.

      Yes, the apple GUI is different. Same with the keyboard shortcuts. Once you get used to them, you won't even notice it.

      I went through the same frustration as you, but now I get pissed when I am on windows and can't use the command key like I can on OS X....

      Give it time would be my suggestion...

    21. Re:Normal People? by subspacemsg · · Score: 2, Informative

      What head aches? like not being able to find drivers for your new geeky toy?

      Windows might be bloated, take up resources but an "operating system" is no good if it can't operate all of your hardware. Microsoft is soo good at enabling other companies to write drivers for them, I know it's not because of their technical prowess but because of their army of marketing people. In the end I don't care how they got to that point. Sayinng non-windows OSes are great has merit but only in a very limited context.

    22. Re:Normal People? by p0tat03 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a long-time Windows user who has since switched to both OS X and Linux...

      1 - Registry bloat. No other OS keeps app settings and preferences in what really amounts of a gigantic text file. Many apps do NOT remove registry entries correctly (or fully) when uninstalled. Inevitably this file will bloat, bloat, bloat, bloat until it takes forever just to get anything out of it.

      2 - System folder bloat. No package manager in Windows, yet things insist on storing dependencies in a shared manner. This is pain, since *nobody* dares remove any library from your system upon uninstall because nobody is sure if anyone else needs it. As you install/uninstall things from your system, this folder will bloat, bloat, bloat. It's incredible how much larger a Windows install can get just 1 year after a fresh reformat.

      These things are unavoidable. Your users may well have avoided these issues if their machines were locked like Fort Knox and they were unable to install and tweak to their liking. As a heavy dev who's always trying new tools, the constant install/uninstall cycle takes its toll VERY VERY quickly in Windows, whereas in OS X and Linux the system remains squeaky clean.

      Oh, and did I mention that I need admin privileges to do ANYTHING? I can't even install a flash plugin for *myself* without needing full admin privileges to the system. This is lazy programming, and Windows is full of it. If I were a sysadmin I'd be tearing my hair out. It's either: "screw you guys, use the pre-installed software and nothing else", or "have fun with full admin, I'll be here waiting for your f'ed up computer". There's no happy medium.

    23. Re:Normal People? by bockelboy · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's a pretty bad example. Congratulations, you just learned the UI widget for adding something.

      Now, in most every single Mac native application (and the good ports), you know when you are "adding X", there will always be a button with a + symbol at the bottom corner.

      Let's take Microsoft Office 2008 for Mac as an example of "you can write FORTRAN in every language". Say you want to set the default format to the old binary one instead of OpenXML.

      Word: Hit preferences. It's a System-Preferences like presentation of a matrix of icons. Hit compatibility. Nothing there. Hit "Save". Ah, "Save Word files as ... (dropdown to .doc)"

      Excel: Hit preferences. Again, a System-Preferences matrix of icons. Hit "Save". Nothing there. Hit "Compatibility" - ah, a different layout of dropdown box.

      Powerpoint: Hit preferences. It's a tabbed interface. Go to the "Save" tab and hit "Save powerpoint files as ... (dropdown to .ppt)"

      So, there are 2 layouts of preferences (tabbed versus icon matrix) and two places where this dropdown is hidden (save versus compatibility), and two different styles for the dropdown. No two apps are the same.

      But yes, you do get buttons with labels. Just not a consistent GUI...

    24. Re:Normal People? by Zakabog · · Score: 4, Informative

      Okay. I can get windows to run. Really, I can. That doesn't mean it isn't a fucking pain in the ass, a terrible user experience, and a waste of resources. Sorry, I have plenty of reasons to get headaches from windows. Not being geeky enough to handle it isn't one them.

      I've been a Mac user for 2 years now, although I owned a PC for around 14. I've had more headaches using Mac OSX than I've ever had using Windows.

      It's always some stupid little things, but it's something stupid in the OS. Like finder will remember the view settings for each individual folder. I can't tell it to use one default view for every folder, someone on a Mac IRC channel suggested I write a shell script that goes through and changes some file in every folder (some file stores the folders view settings.) There should be an easy way to do that

      When I purchased my new MacBook Pro I saw it came with a cool little utility that will copy everything over from my old computer. So I hooked up both computers to my gigabit ethernet switch ready to copy, and then it told me it doesn't support network transfers (!!!) I have to hook up the computers to each other using a firewire cable. I don't happen to have spare firewire cables lying around, although I do have tons and tons of ethernet cables (plus the laptops have built in wireless, it can communicate with the other laptop straight out of the box with nothing extra required.) Same thing with Aperture, I can't backup to network storage only an external drive hooked up via USB or Firewire. I can't imagine why anyone would want to rely on an external drive for a backup mechanism.

      The single mouse button is often brought up and people are told "You don't need a second mouse button" although every mac program I've ever used has some right click menu, the standard methods of accessing the method with a single button are holding Ctrl then clicking or holding down the mouse button. The problem is, sometimes that doesn't work (like when finder is dying and you need to restart it, which you can only do through the right click menu) so I have to go find a USB mouse, plug it in, hope it works, and then use that to right click.

      In contrast I've never found a problem like the ones listed above in Windows that I can't solve. Even if it requires diving into the registry at least there exists a method. Doing anything sufficiently advanced on a Mac seems impossible (even with the unix backend, a simple task like editing /etc/hosts requires jumping through tons of hoops on the mac just because it's designed to be "easier".)

    25. Re:Normal People? by HungSoLow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, a subset of the "Geek" race are the "Nerds". These include scientists, engineers and the like who rely on many Windows-only computational tools. I am fully capable of installing, configuring and perpetually running Linux but I would be shooting myself in the proverbial academic foot by doing so. What's worse is the "linux-compatible" tools DO NOT run properly in Linux (which most of the S/W companies admit). If all relevant computational electromagnetics tools could run as smoothly under Linux as they do under Windows, I would switch in a heartbeat.

    26. Re:Normal People? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No - it means that you're used to Windows or Linux conventions, and are trying to use those conventions in an Apple environment.

      It doesn't work that way. I'll be blunt: learning OSX is a pain. There's a ton of non-obvious stuff that is completely different from the Windows world (I'll just point to tabbing between firefox windows when other apps are open as one of my initial pain points), and which have to be re-learned. Remember that first time you fired up Linux? How much stumbling around did you have to do? It's the same thing for OSX. Expecting to be able to navigate all of OSX without ever looking for help anywhere is.... unrealistic.

      What I will argue though is that OSX has the smallest learning curve of any new OS. I remember playing around with Linux, and having to root through config files and command line arguments to get stuff to work. Windows was a collection of arcane commands that made no sense, but worked. Compared to that, OSX is a breeze.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    27. Re:Normal People? by InlawBiker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Almost everybody out there, including the true geeks, runs Windows at work because they have to. Linux, Windows servers, XP desktops, Solaris, whatever corporate buys. Everything EXCEPT Macs.

      At home we have a Macbook. Why? I don't mind running XP at work, but I'm not shelling out my own dough for Vista. I'd rather give it to Steve.

      I think the backlash against Vista, whether justified or not, has caused a lot of people to look at Macs and to some degree Linux.

    28. Re:Normal People? by gunnk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm a sysadmin and we have 400+ Windows XP machines on our network.

      It does "work well" for them. Of course, that means they can generally run the programs they need at a reasonable speed with a minimum of glitches.

      So XP works well enough for folks that are comfortable with it. It doesn't have the rich features, deep pool of easy-to-install applications, lightning speed, or sophisticated visual effects that Linux does, but it does "work well" for them.

      It's "good enough" for their work -- which is all they're trying to do. That makes it the right tool for the job.

      Personally, though, I find working with Windows to feel like fingernails on a chalkboard compared to Ubuntu.

      --
      Life is short: void the warranty.
    29. Re:Normal People? by marcosdumay · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I know a person that was forced to use Linux at work (now she's forced to use Windows, just like me). Altough she isn't a computer expert (ok, she doesn't even know how to click "next - next - next" and have a piece of software installed on Windows), she does nothing but complain on how restritive Windows is.

    30. Re:Normal People? by cbreaker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      AP31R0N: I agree. The rest of my family - non-technical people - use it just fine. I've deployed XP to 500 - 1,500 user networks. I've managed XP in many different scenarios.

      Usually, problems with Windows only arise when: You download Malware and install it, or you are trying to do something most people won't do. I've had my share of problems with XP but I'm also really trying to do things that only a geak would do. So it breaks sometimes, and I fix it.

      It's just popular to bash Windows. It's not perfect, and there's some annoying ass problems with it, but MacOS ain't no saint either.

      --
      - It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
    31. Re:Normal People? by kramer2718 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I find the user interface to be very good. But I did run into these kinds of troubles with getting acclimated. It just takes some time to get used to the subtle differences. We could all do it in windows instantly (well, after the long delay for the control panel subscreen to open), but how many years have we had to familiarize ourselves with Windows?

      I'm not saying that I'll never get used to OS X. It's just ... painful. I also recently installed Ubuntu with KDE on my desktop ... and found the GUI pretty easy to figure out.

      Maybe I picked a bad example, but there are tons of other things that annoy me in OS X. The maximize button doesn't work properly (I've had this flame war on Mac boards before ... bottom line is, I want to be able to click a button and have a window be fullscreen. Period.)

      The doc is terrible. I would much rather have all the windows of a particular application grouped together and see their titles rather than have tiny images of the windows that I can't see. It also just looks less clean than the KDE or Windows task bar. There other things that I hate. I just can't remember them all because my Mac is essentially mothballed at this point until I can fix it (i.e. run either KDE or another OS).

    32. Re:Normal People? by stokessd · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yes, there are a TON of tools that are windows only. Linux is great, my home server runs it as does my little CNC milling machine (EMC baby!) But until the other OS's get enough critical mass for the major software packages to be ported I've got to have some windows capability everywhere.

      The intel switch with the mac was HUGE for me. I was dancing the day that was announced. I now have a mac that can run ALL software.

      The parent is 100% correct, windows is a fact of life for certain tasks. That may change, but I doubt it will change quickly.

      Sheldon

    33. Re:Normal People? by iluvcapra · · Score: 4, Funny

      Example: I needed to add a user. I bought up the little user management app and didn't see any add user button. After a short Google, I found that to add a user, you click the small plus sign at the bottom.

      Don't tell me, instead of two buttons with a "plus" and "minus," you wanted one button two screens away that said "Manage User Profiles." And clicking that, you expected three radio buttons: "Add A User Profile," "Create A Personality with the PersonalityWizard(tm)," and "Advanced". You wanted the Mac to kernel panic if you selected "Add A User Profile," you wanted the PersonalityWizard(tm) to ask for your MSN password and a credit card number, but never add a user, and you wanted Advanced to open up the Wifi configuration panel.

      I kid but only a little.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    34. Re:Normal People? by AP31R0N · · Score: 5, Funny

      Someone's sig once said: Calling OSX secure is like calling the second fattest girl in the club skinny.

      And as for your sig... it's the mac *users* that really bug me. Most of them complain about something they don't understand and praise each other for being rebellious bohemians.

      It's a tool and a toy... not a way of life or philosophy!

      --
      Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
    35. Re:Normal People? by downix · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, you're quite incorrect here. A windows install will usually take between 2-4 hours to get it fine tuned, de-virused, etc. Linux install by the same token on the same hardware is usually a fraction of that time.

      --
      Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
    36. Re:Normal People? by Foofoobar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Dunno what you are talking about. In the scientific community, I find quite often more open source tools available with few Windows equivalents than the reverse. And often those tools have greater flexibility and a greater set of features because more people have added to them (mostly grad students).

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
    37. Re:Normal People? by sexconker · · Score: 3, Interesting

      1 - Registry bloat. No other OS keeps app settings and preferences in what really amounts of a gigantic text file. Many apps do NOT remove registry entries correctly (or fully) when uninstalled. Inevitably this file will bloat, bloat, bloat, bloat until it takes forever just to get anything out of it.

      No application is required to do this, either.
      The applications themselves could easily read from a text file they keep in their own directory. Sure, if you want your Auto Play handler to list your program, or if you want to hijack the icons and registration of every media type known to man, you're gonna spam the registry.

      It's not the fault of the OS that applications don't play nice and don't clean up after themselves upon uninstall.

      2 - System folder bloat. No package manager in Windows, yet things insist on storing dependencies in a shared manner. This is pain, since *nobody* dares remove any library from your system upon uninstall because nobody is sure if anyone else needs it. As you install/uninstall things from your system, this folder will bloat, bloat, bloat. It's incredible how much larger a Windows install can get just 1 year after a fresh reformat.

      Are you joking? Stop downloading random shareware programs. Every damned program I uninstall prompts me with a "This file may be needed by other applications, should I really delete it when I uninstall myself?" and I always say "YES PLEASE". If something does break (extremely rare) just reinstall the broken program, or if you're an enterprising individual, just replace the individual files.

      Again - not the fault of the OS. Many apps will keep a separate copy of dlls in their own directories, in case another program uses the same dll and removes it upon uninstallation. And if you have an issue with dlls causing your windows installation to "bloat, bloat, bloat", you need to stop downloading every program in existence, and maybe get a hard drive measured in gigglebytes instead of maybebytes.

      There is no package manager in windows, true. Once would be nice to have, but how many packages are available for Linux? How many applications are available for Windows? Yeah, YOU be the guy who has to manage the package manager.

      These things are unavoidable. Your users may well have avoided these issues if their machines were locked like Fort Knox and they were unable to install and tweak to their liking. As a heavy dev who's always trying new tools, the constant install/uninstall cycle takes its toll VERY VERY quickly in Windows, whereas in OS X and Linux the system remains squeaky clean.

      The constant installing and uninstalling is your fault. YOURS. If you hate the bloat, stop using programs that don't clean up after themselves. Use a registry cleaner. Or use on of the various uninstaller apps. They track changes to your registry/system folders/files and undo them all for you.

      Oh, and did I mention that I need admin privileges to do ANYTHING? I can't even install a flash plugin for *myself* without needing full admin privileges to the system. This is lazy programming, and Windows is full of it. If I were a sysadmin I'd be tearing my hair out. It's either: "screw you guys, use the pre-installed software and nothing else", or "have fun with full admin, I'll be here waiting for your f'ed up computer". There's no happy medium.

      Right click my computer, manage...
      You can set up all the permissions you want and more. If you can't trust yourself to run as administrator, then THAT'S a valid reason to turn in any "geek card" you may have illegitimately obtained.

      If you're administrating a machine for a user who can't be trusted, they should NOT have the ability to install random plugins and crap. Do that for them, backup the entire drive, and hand them the keyboard and the login details for a limited user account. I hope you set that password to expire on first login & every x months, because they WILL leave it on a sticky on their monitor.

      Your post boils down to "Whaaa. Windows is hard. I don't know what happened, so I'll blame the operating system!"

      You're no different than the people who blame Bill Gates specifically when their computer gets a virus from that e-greeting card email they got.

    38. Re:Normal People? by strabes · · Score: 5, Informative

      Pardon me, but I'd like to know what version of windows you're using. It usually takes me at least 1.5 hours after installing to get all the drivers installed and not conflicting. The only things that "just work" out of the box are the GUI and my 10-year-old 3-button Microsoft optical mouse.

      --
      Its = possessive. It's = "it is"
    39. Re:Normal People? by jeffbax · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I can't comment on the Aperture/network backup issue but...

      10.5 has a unified Finder, all windows behave the same at all times... although I think you can still make them unique they default to however you chose to display the last window.

      As for the mice... plug in a USB mouse. Its not that hard, and I have never seen one that is unsupported. Additionally, for laptops use two finger clicking. Two fingers on trackpad + click = right click. I find this is even faster/comfortable than having a button since you never have to look or worry about hitting the wrong one.

      Similarly, if you are challenged editing text files... well nobody can help you there. Seriously, pico /etc/hosts ? Its not that hard, and there are an abundance of great text editors for the Mac.

      I have to say I completely disagree, I used Windows from 3.11 to XP and DOS before those... and in my mere four years of using OS X I have never had a more trouble-free computing experience. The attention to detail is astounding and once you stop expecting it to work like Windows (such as mucking around in obscure settings dialogs) it for the most part DOES "just work" and DOES get the hell out of my way.

      As for not finding good open source Applications... I don't understand that either. I've been amazed at the quality of some of the completely free Apps here (Adium, Cyberduck, Colloquy, Drosera, NoobProof, Burn, ClamXav, EZ 7z, UnrarX, MacPar, MAMP, NicePlayer, Max, PureFTPd Manager, Transmission) ... they do a great job following HIG guidelines and I've yet to find a function I couldn't find an App for even though in some cases I do choose to pay for reasonably priced software (Acorn, Cheetah 3D, MoneyWell, LineForm, OmniGraffle, CSSEdit, TextMate, PandoraJam among them...)

      No free utilities is a bunch of crap. As for for-pay apps I know this is /. but I find the level of Polish for Mac Shareware a step above that of Windows. Your usage may vary but I hear a lot of unfounded claims...

    40. Re:Normal People? by ArsonSmith · · Score: 3, Informative

      $ apt-cache stats
      Total package names : 32368 (1295k)
          Normal packages: 24717
          Pure virtual packages: 508
          Single virtual packages: 1876
          Mixed virtual packages: 234
          Missing: 5033

      That's a lot of packages, and they are all maintained by volunteers.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    41. Re:Normal People? by strabes · · Score: 5, Informative

      Like finder will remember the view settings for each individual folder. I can't tell it to use one default view for every folder

      Yes you can. Open a finder window, set it to the view type you want to set as default. I use List View (Cmd+2). Press Cmd+J to show the View Options pane. Notice how this pane changes as you cycle through the different view modes (Cmd+1-4). Once you adjust the settings to your liking, simply click "Use as Defaults" on the bottom of the View Options pane.

      the standard methods of accessing the method with a single button are holding Ctrl then clicking or holding down the mouse button.

      I assume you're using a laptop since you said you have to go get a usb mouse in order to right click. In the Keyboard & Mouse section of System Preferences, under "Trackpad" you can check an option labeled "Tap trackpad using two fingers for secondary click." I use it all the time.

      --
      Its = possessive. It's = "it is"
    42. Re:Normal People? by jeffbax · · Score: 2, Informative

      Um.. I'm just going to have to disagree with you on that. You cannot bitch and moan because OS X doesn't behave like Windows or KDE (which are arguably very similar in terms of their needless complexity when it comes to UI paradigms).

      Seriously, a + is difficult and somehow unintuitive? How about File -> New, or Command + N?

      Or if you'd just prefer a large unwieldy button that ads to the problem regarding consistency and too much shit on the screen with KDE and Windows...

      You just can't use a Mac and expect it to be Windows. You'll be frustrated if you can't get over this part. When I got my first Mac in 2004, I used it at the same time as my PC and had similar issues overcoming things I'd expect to behave like Windows. I decided I'd stop using Windows to try to get over the baggage in expectations I'd have, and now 4 years later I go insane having to deal with some of the idiotic UI issues that plague Windows. Just compare System Preferences to Control Panel...

    43. Re:Normal People? by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, but they're so SHINEY!

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    44. Re:Normal People? by ThousandStars · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So have I, and the most persistent irritant is the lack of a way to instantly and consistently maximize a window to fullscreen. But the problems have by and large been smaller and less problematic than Windows XP, the crashes less frequent, and the overall experience more pleasant. All computers have problems: OS X has fewer of them. Someday, I hope that description fits Linux.

    45. Re:Normal People? by jonbryce · · Score: 4, Insightful

      2-4 hours is pretty good going. Of course, then you have to install all the software. Wordpad and Paintbrush aren't going to get you very far.

    46. Re:Normal People? by Fallen+Andy · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Eh? You must be joking. Installing from the CD is the least of your problems (although even that can be a pain on some SATA machines).

      Assuming you've installed a retail XP with SP2 you now need to do about 60-70 updates or install SP3.

      (Not to mention finding the correct drivers for the installed hardware unless like me you are using an ancient Toshiba notebook. Even then, the Microsoft display drivers (notably for S3 in general and some NVidia) are such a POS that you need to find better ones if you want games to work). Then it gets to be more fun - PDF reader, browser, anti-virus , codecs, real alternative, qtlite etc. etc.

      You're lucky if you get change from 4-5 hours installing even on a fast machine.

      It gets even more interesting upgrading from Vista especially for Acer, HP, Sony notebooks.

      Andy

    47. Re:Normal People? by jonbryce · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes, but lots of different text files. Windows only has two files for everything.

    48. Re:Normal People? by sm62704 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Unless I misunderstood you, you're confusing Linux with Windows or they've changed the install process considerably since XP. With Windows you must put the CD in, wait in front of the computer of five minutes, enter a very long string of alphanumeric characters including 1s and ls and Os and 0s and Bs and 13s, if you aren't on the internet you really get the "hitting yourself with a hammer" part as you authenticate, talking to a computer on your cell phone and entering another long string of alphanumerics.

      Then you have to sit in front of the computer for another hour or two (or even longer) and tell it that it's OK to reboot itself several times.

      When you finally get the OS installed you have to go into Control Panel to configure it like you want it (standard Windows or new kindergarten Crayon style, should the start menu pop up or cover part of the screen, etc.)

      Then you have to install all your applications.

      With Linux (with Suse or Mandriva, ymmv on other distros) you insert the first CD, choose how you want it to act in a single screen (LILO or GRUB, KDE or Gnome, etc) and what apps you want installed, and since it's all your apps as well as teh OS you have to change CDs when prompted. You don't have to sit there like with Windows, you don't have to install any apps (it's part of the installation process), you only have one reboot at the very end of the process, and your computer is able to do pretty much anything you would want a computer to do (except, of course, play Windows games).

      IME Suse or Mandriva take less than an hour, while Windows takes all afternoon. It's easy and intuitive.

      I'm not sure about Apple, but IINM you just buy one and plug it in.

      Anybody who thinks Linux is hard hasn't tried Linux this century. Now I'll probably get downmodded by Linux geeks who want to keep their 133t cr3dz and don't want everyone to know that Linux installation is a piece of cake that your grandma could probably do.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    49. Re:Normal People? by blahbooboo · · Score: 4, Informative

      huh, how is prior comment informative?? No details, nada...

    50. Re:Normal People? by truthsearch · · Score: 2, Informative

      In OSX I have to drag it to the Trash Can. Ya... that's a really efficient "workflow".

      Apple-Delete, or right-click and choose Delete, or open the folder action menu and choose Delete. I like the keyboard shortcut. And unlike Windows I never accidentally delete anything because it requires two keys, also avoiding a dialog box.

      I want to go to www.google.com. So I type it out but accidently type www.boogle.com. Now if I want to delete the B, I have to put the cursor after the B and press backspace. I can't put the cursor in front of the B and press Delete. WTF is up with that? Everyone knows... Backspace moves the cursor to the left and deletes text to the left of the cursor. Delete keeps the cursor in place and deletes text to the right of the cursor. What is so hard about that? Is there a solution to that?

      The standard Apple keyboard has two delete keys, one is like the backspace and in the same location. The other is below the Help key and deletes text to the right. You would only have one if you're on a laptop, where space is precious, and therefore Function-Delete will delete to the right.

    51. Re:Normal People? by p0tat03 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, but it's stored in many text files, each of which keeps to itself, and doesn't slow down access to the others.

      OS X keeps configs in XML files, but these are stored in very strictly named folders - which is to say that, even if the app doesn't play nice and remove these files on uninstall, you can easily go in and clean these suckers out yourself without fear of nuking something important.

    52. Re:Normal People? by jscotta44 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Macs have never had (unless a particular application was specifically written to override the default functionalityâ"usually a Windows port) a maximize window to full screen button. Wellâ¦maybe before OS X, but my memory has holes in it regarding that tidbit. The window is coded to open to fit the content, not take up your whole screen. However, if you have a window that you like to have full screen, the system will usually remember that and return it to the full-screen size when you reopen the application.

    53. Re:Normal People? by shiftless · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But I have to admit, I've had little to no trouble with MY Windows machine.

      Go use anything else for a month or two, then come back to Windows. You will soon see exactly what the GP was talking about. It's a fucking irritating piece of shit, and you don't really understand just how stupid it is until you use something else for a while.

    54. Re:Normal People? by comm2k · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But the whole point of changing from the default OOXML to something else is supposed to be difficult and well hidden ;-)

    55. Re:Normal People? by Octorian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Only 1.5 hours? You must not be installing on a laptop, and have a fresh CD that was cut last week.

      Installing Windows XP without a pre-made image usually requires the following:
      1. Install
      2. Download drivers on another machine
      3. Install drivers
      (about a half-dozen reboots by this point)
      4. Install MS patches
      (reboot and repeat step 4 a couple times)
      5. Now install base software, and its patches

      Before you're done, we're talking almost a day of work for a laptop, perhaps half a day for a desktop. (laptops have more obscure drivers to install, and slower hard drives)

      Anyone who says Windows is easy to install has either used pre-made image CDs, has only done upgrades, or has never actually installed it.

    56. Re:Normal People? by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hell, I just slipstreamed SP3 onto the XP install disk. I can get it up and running and completely patched in about 1 hour and 15 minutes from a blank drive. No sweat! No reason to re-invent the wheel every time. The biggest thing is make sure you know what kind of hardware you have and locate all the drivers BEFORE you get started. Or at the very least, have another working machine with an internet connection while you are doing the install.

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    57. Re:Normal People? by gerddie · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, I have a Powerbook at home, and work on an Ubuntu Box at work. Sometimes, I have to fire up a WinXP inside VirtualBox to check what workarounds are needed to compile my code with VC++, but that's only once in a month or so.

    58. Re:Normal People? by tyrione · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's be eldeberries. @ColdWetDog: Apple users are considered normal, but Apple isn't. Hate the sin not the sinner kinda.

      Are you sure you have that one right? Macs these days are basically Intel boxes with blinky keyboards and bog standard innards (OK, the MacPro innards are pretty neat but memory card risers have been around since at least S-100 bus days).

      It's the Mac users that are bat-shit insane (absent myself, of course - I'm OK, just ask my dog).

      Do me a favor by designing, building and implementing the clean case, inside and out, motherboard connectors, fans, etc., that's in the Mac Pro, iMac or Laptops they produce and show me the equivalent off-the-shelf clone available to compete against Apple.

    59. Re:Normal People? by mikael_j · · Score: 2, Informative

      The fullscreen thing is a different design philosophy, one that isn't based in a world where users are assumed to be so dumb that they're running their 256-bit quad-core 6GHz machine with a Geforce13900GTXS++ graphics card and a 42" LCD monitor in 800x600.

      Basically, "maximize" is IMO a horrible legacy of the days when the average cheap-ass user had to run apps in full-screen mode to be able to be productive, these days there is no sane reason for just about any everyday app to run in fullscreen (why would you want Safari/Firefox or Mail.app running fullscreen on a 1920x1200 monitor?), and the few that have good reason to run in fullscreen generally have a "real" maximize button (like Maya).

      It's simply the preferred default that apps don't just grab all available screen real estate.

      /Mikael

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
    60. Re:Normal People? by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah, Linux uses tons of text files in random unpredictable locations, which vary by distribution, which all have their own grammar, comment style, and which also aren't removed when you uninstall software (check our your dotfiles some time).

      I really don't get why people love to rag on the registry so much. Perfect it ain't, but seriously, the registry provides a fast random access database with a standard API, integrated security and robust toolset for administrators. Why do you think GNOME created their own registry work-alike 10 years later? It's because the registry actually has a lot of advantages for managed networks and app developers that UNIX fans don't like to admit.

      As a bonus, it's accessible from kernel mode so you can configure drivers with it as well. The equivalent on Linux is ..... well there isn't really an equivalent. Drivers are configured using a collection of random config files, scripts that read those random config files and then poke state into the kernel through yet more bizarre custom interfaces that are made up on the spot. In Windows, you set some registry keys, the driver reads them ... done.

    61. Re:Normal People? by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Usually, problems with Windows only arise when: You download Malware and install it, or you are trying to do something most people won't do.

      In my experience, frequent installing and uninstalling of software is enough to create problems, even if you don't have the bad luck of installing outright malware. Sooner or later, some sloppy setup program will destroy an important system setting or replace a DLL. Boom. Or if you are less unlucky, the system will "only" become gradually more unstable.

      I even remember one case in which Microsoft itself was at fault: Installing Office 2000 disabled a RTF-based help system my colleagues had developed on NT4. It turned out that the Office 2000 setup replaced the RTF.dll, the new one did not fully support our program anymore.

      On the other hand, I've seen Windows run very reliably if you stick to a small set of known good applications. Even Windows9x can do well in that scenario, and it is common for non-technical users.

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
    62. Re:Normal People? by mcrbids · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Almost everybody out there, including the true geeks, runs Windows at work because they have to. Linux, Windows servers, XP desktops, Solaris, whatever corporate buys. Everything EXCEPT Macs.

      I guess you have little experience with the educational sector, then. All it takes is ONE instance of a computer virus popping up porn sites for administrators to be really open to alternatives.

      Mac OSX is all but taking the educational sector by storm, since education has always been a bit of a stronghold for Macs.

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    63. Re:Normal People? by Creepy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The mac pro? The one that starts at $2700? You're clearly kidding, right? That's just the base starting point price - upgrades for their ECC RAM start at $500 for 2GB and go up to $9100 for 32GB, and that's for standard DDR2/800 with an ECC (all ECC does is add one extra chip to the memory card and does a simple parity check - logically, that would only add 1/8 of the price of the memory max since there are 8 chips on the card [if you ever wondered where DDR6400 comes from, it's 8 banks of 800MHz and 8*800=6400]). Apple GOUGES for their pro line. It doesn't even use the latest specced hardware (no DDR3, but good DDR2 usually is faster, and underwhelming graphics card choices unless you want the Quadro FX 5600 1.5GB for $2,850.00 (which is close to the going rate for those OpenGL cards). I've used a $9100 configuration before (not the RAM - machine was $9100) and dug around in the insides a bit and was completely underwhelmed. I could rebuild the machine easily for 1/2 that, if not more (barring the case, but I could get a similar case and a decent power supply too).

          Their laptops aren't bad, a bit of markup, but some people will pay that for the OS and stuff it comes with (and pretty much everything else is a laptop, and I mean that - iMac is laptop hardware and mini is a micro form factor that is similar to laptops).

      I wish they had a mid-tower design with upgradable hardware like they used to, or a desktop replacement laptop base (and by that I mean one with upgradable parts like video - nVidia has the MXM and AMD the AXIOM PCIe standards for their cards), so we should be getting upgradable mobile graphics cards soon (but you'll have to stick to your vendor). If users can add memory, they certainly can change graphics cards.

    64. Re:Normal People? by Senjutsu · · Score: 3, Funny

      God, you're right, the GP is being ridiculous. Everyone KNOWS all you have to do is click on the "&^4" to add users and the "(/9er" symbol to remove users. AND If you need help, you simply attach a second monitor, stand on one foot, and pray to Steve Jobs, and the answer you are seeking will be whispered to you in ancient Mayan.

      Because, God knows, it's entirely ridiculous and arbitrary to expect an English speaker to associate "+" with the concept of addition.

    65. Re:Normal People? by kklein · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Gotcher back here. I am a bit of an anti-Linux troll 'round here (I like to think of myself as a Linux realist), but the last Ubuntu install I did was 23 minutes from unpartitioned HDD to fully-functional system. That is shit-hot.

      OSX seems to take forever to install, but when it's in, it's already usable.

      Windows is just the absolute worst for install/set-up time. Just the worst.

    66. Re:Normal People? by xsadar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Linux takes a fraction of the time as Windows to get it fine tuned? What world do you live on? Just getting drivers working properly can often take weeks of research and experimentation (assuming there's a driver that will work). And yes, that's even true for Ubuntu. In my experience with Windows getting the drivers working properly has never taken more than a few minutes (except once for a printer for which there was no 64-bit driver). And just so you know, I do prefer Linux once I've gotten everything working properly, I just hate the getting everything working stage.

      --
      The only thing I know is that I don't know anything; and I'm not even sure about that.
    67. Re:Normal People? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Um no. ECC stands for Error Correcting Code. Parity only allows you to detect an error, to correct it you need: a) two extra bits b) a bunch of extra logic to detect which bit failed and correct it. This is the same type of memory what's used in servers, and is therefore a much smaller market with more testing and much smaller economies of scale than you get with commodity DRAM. That's also why it's not the latest DDR3 bleeding-edge speeds, because you tend to be more conservative with what you put into a server because you have lower levels of acceptable risk than what is OK in the commodity hardware used by Joe Sixpack. Of course, there is still some gouging. Look at the markup that HP or IBM put on their server ECC RAM compared to what you pay to 3rd party suppliers like Kingston. However, the gouging is not as bad as you think.

    68. Re:Normal People? by Nursie · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's true that I do have a windows box at work... but it's just because we build our software on windows too.

      It's computer number 7 after the redhat laptop, the solaris workstation, the 3 SuSE and redhat boxes and the HPUX server.

    69. Re:Normal People? by Nursie · · Score: 2, Informative

      OK, I have three linux boxes at home (1 x86_64 ubuntu laptop, 2 debian arm systems) and 5 at work, alongside an HP box and a solaris workstation.

      I was actually impressed at the short install time for win2k8, it's really quite snappy.

    70. Re:Normal People? by Lars+T. · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So it's 1.25 hours for the install, not counting the time it took to get all the drivers beforehand.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    71. Re:Normal People? by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'd rather give it to Steve

      Ya, cause he does more with his money to help the world than that evil bastard Gates at Micro... Oh wait.

    72. Re:Normal People? by HungSoLow · · Score: 3, Informative

      I must say the same to you ... I don't know what you're talking about. In the scientific community I've only seen Software Eng. / Comp Sci. researchers happy with (for example) Linux. I'm in no way saying scientific computing can't occur in a Linux environment, I'm just saying from experience the options are far greater and the user experience much smoother by comparison (this is for Electrical, Mechanical and Civil Engineering, as well as Physics / Mathematics). As a quick example, FEKO works under Linux, but the company recommends using Windows if you have the opportunity due to performance and stability issues running under Linux. Nothing inherently wrong with Linux, just a fact that Windows is the native OS. I'm very much into the hard sciences (physically building, measuring, testing) so I'm not much for open source or coding things when there's more tangible things to be done. I can, however, see how open source software is a veritible wet dream for S/W Eng & Comp. Sci. folks.

    73. Re:Normal People? by hotfireball · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not really. We use macs at corporate level. Besides, if corporate requires me to use Windows, I just change the fucking job.

    74. Re:Normal People? by SageMusings · · Score: 2, Funny

      He must be an hourly contractor :)

      --
      -- Posted from my parent's basement
    75. Re:Normal People? by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2, Funny

      Heck, so you're the one other guy that has an original XP install disk? (Last time I checked, you cannot slipstream anything onto anything but rev 0 XP).

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    76. Re:Normal People? by SilverJets · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well one benefit to having the same hardware is you know the OS is going to run without having driver issues. The same cannot be said for the plethora of PC configurations that run Windows.

      It would not surprise me at all if everyone that reads and posts on Slashdot has experienced or knows someone that has experienced a Windows driver issue. Can the same be said about Macs? (Yeah, I know that there are a lot less Mac users here than PC users)

    77. Re:Normal People? by laffer1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Speak for yourself. I have an 95% Mac environment at work that I help administer. It's a computer science department at a university. I have two work computers, a dell running MidnightBSD and a intel iMac. The only windows installs are a server and one lab with parallels.

    78. Re:Normal People? by robthebloke · · Score: 2, Interesting

      > Anyone who says Windows is easy to install has either used pre-made image CDs, has only done upgrades, or has never actually installed it.

      It's called nLite. Windows *is* easy to install....

  2. I've been wondering.. by QuantumRiff · · Score: 4, Interesting

    when will a project similar to WINE come out for OSX? I have seen all sorts of apps that run on Mac and/or PC's but not linux. One would think it would almost be easier to "not emulate" the OSX software, as it is mostly unix based. If more software starts coming out for mac and PC, it might be easier to get the Mac software running under linux.

    --

    What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    1. Re:I've been wondering.. by bunratty · · Score: 4, Funny

      If the Windows emulator for Linux is Wine, I guess the Mac emulator for Linux would be Mace?

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    2. Re:I've been wondering.. by Sonic+McTails · · Score: 4, Informative

      Try using Darwine (http://darwine.sourceforge.net/), or if you wish for commercial support, use CrossOver Office for Macintosh.

      --
      This signature was left intentionally blank.
    3. Re:I've been wondering.. by kellyb9 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      when will a project similar to WINE come out for OSX?

      When enterprising Mac users develop it.

    4. Re:I've been wondering.. by QuantumRiff · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sorry, my post was a bit unclear. I want a project that will let me run OSX apps on a linux machine, just like with WINE, we can run Win32 apps on linux machines..

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    5. Re:I've been wondering.. by snl2587 · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's a "compatibility layer", you insensitive clod!

    6. Re:I've been wondering.. by menace3society · · Score: 4, Informative

      The reason is that Mac software works completely differently. The POSIX syscalls are the same, but almost everything in between is completely different. Not like Toyota-Ferrari, different, we're talking Schwinn-Ferrari different.

      The Win32 API that Wine implements is a C API, so a clean version can be written from scratch by anyone who knows C and takes the time to do it. Lots of potential users there.

      The Cocoa APIs of Mac OS X are written in Objective-C, a language which few people know. They are more expansive than the Win32 API, and since they are object-oriented the specification is quite a bit more complex.

      There is a Free sort-of-implementation called GNUStep, which actually conforms to the earlier OPENSTEP specification, plus their own add-ons. The GNUStep people now make tracking changes to Cocoa a priority, so there is source compatibility, and there is something called Renaissance which allows users to create use a single file for user interface design.

      However, I don't think GNUStep is binary compatible, even if it's built on top of Darwin and running on identical hardware. But if it's binary compatibility you want, the GNUStep codebase is the best place to start (just watch out for lawyers).

      An interesting note, even though the two are binary compatible, because NeXT/OPEN/GNUStep/Cocoa applications are actually directories of multiple files, it's theoretically possible to have one single build that could handle either API, on a variety of architectures.

    7. Re:I've been wondering.. by tm2b · · Score: 2, Informative

      Then you really don't understand what Unix is.

      The user-level UI stuff (for example, all the frameworks that make Mac OS X way much more than just another Unix) is completely orthogonal to whether an OS is Unix. While these days everybody seems to think that Unix means X11, that's only the . CMU's Andrew project's wm, SunWindows, NeWS, and others (including NeXTStep) all competed with X11 years ago, and they were all Unix - back then, they all tended to even have fairly incompatible sets of system calls (which inspired the creation of Posix compliance).

      Mac OS X is Unix. It just happens to be much much more than just Unix, and it's the widest deployed desktop Unix in the world today.

      --
      "It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
  3. Astonishing indeed! by dazedNconfuzed · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While those numbers are not astonishing

    Not astonishing? A single company, offering a proprietary product*, is outdoing nearly all of several hundred companies combined who build to a given standard! Astonishing indeed!

    * - including hardware, OS, and a broad range of application software

    --
    Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
    1. Re:Astonishing indeed! by kellyb9 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      To me - it really isn't all that astonishing. While I believe Mac usage has gone up pretty drastically over the last several years. They are the only one selling their product. If someone wants a Mac, they have to go to Apple to buy it. And since they've created a culture, where their product is not only percieved as more efficient and better but also as trendy, I don't really find it that suprising. Still 10% is comparitivly a drop in the bucket.

    2. Re:Astonishing indeed! by von_rick · · Score: 2, Funny

      Still 10% is comparitivly a drop in the bucket.

      Correction. 10% means 10% of the entire bucket.

      But other than that I agree with the rest of your post

      --

      Face your daemons!

    3. Re:Astonishing indeed! by oconnorcjo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Still 10% is comparitivly a drop in the bucket.

      Ten percent is halfway to freedom in my opinion. If one in five personal computers are not windows then developers have to start thinking cross-platform and disregard a "windows only" attitude and this will create a big opportunity for people with linux not to have to worry about stuff not working for them.

      --
      I miss the Karma Whores.
  4. "Magic 10%" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why is 10% "magic"? This number is significant because that's how many fingers we have?

    1. Re:"Magic 10%" by dotpavan · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Why is 10% "magic"? This number is significant because that's how many fingers we have?
      Because it has reached double digit

    2. Re:"Magic 10%" by mhall119 · · Score: 2, Funny

      The other 90% is perspiration, or something to that effect.

      --
      http://www.mhall119.com
    3. Re:"Magic 10%" by Leftist+Troll · · Score: 5, Funny

      10% is the glass ceiling for Apple marketshare. It is estimated that roughly 10% of the population is gay; beyond that, Apple is going to face an uphill battle.

    4. Re:"Magic 10%" by GlobalEcho · · Score: 3, Funny

      Double digits? That's just two fingers....

    5. Re:"Magic 10%" by Carthag · · Score: 2, Insightful


      Why is 10% "magic"? This number is significant because that's how many fingers we have?

      Because it has reached double digit

      double digit is only significant because we have 10 fingers

  5. Reaching corollary by Palshife · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption?

    Wow, talk about a strange corollary. Linux desktop adoption has nothing at all to do with Mac market share. It would have been just as valid to write, "Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that lead a surge in kitten adoptions?"

    Personally, though, adopt a cat anyway.

    --
    Attention deficit disorder is a complicated issue, spanning several major... HEY LET'S GO RIDE BIKES!
    1. Re:Reaching corollary by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Personally, though, adopt a cat anyway.

      Whoa, there. Why would we want to adopt a pet which loathes our existence no matter how much good we do for it? I mean, come on. That's like having a really cranky girlfriend/wife without the sex! Or a teenager. Neither of which is something you want.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    2. Re:Reaching corollary by mhall119 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They're not quite as disconnected as kitten adoption.

      The more people that use a non-Windows OS, the less of a monopoly Windows has on the ecosystem, and that will make application developers think about portability and compatibility, which will make more software and services available on Linux.

      --
      http://www.mhall119.com
    3. Re:Reaching corollary by UncleTogie · · Score: 4, Funny

      Whoa, there. Why would we want to adopt a pet which loathes our existence no matter how much good we do for it?

      Sound like you need The Engineer's Guide to Cats...

      ...and if you still can't stand them, there's a simple method to make a cat sound like a dog:

      1. Douse cat in gasoline.

      2. Flick a lit match at the cat, and presto:

      3. It goes "*WOOF!*"

      Thank you, I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitresses and bartenders, and please.... try the fish.

      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
    4. Re:Reaching corollary by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why do you say that? I see Linux desktop adoption being more likely helped by the success of a non-Windows OS than not.

      People use Windows because a) they think it's the only OS and b) they have to because everyone else uses it. If Windows has a big competitor then everyone becomes aware that (a) is untrue and (b) is not only untrue, but the reasons for using the OS your friends, family and boss uses fade away because compatible software and document formats start springing up on multiple platforms.

    5. Re:Reaching corollary by Tibor+the+Hun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It may seem like somewhat of a stretch, but once you establish a beachead on the OS marketshare it's easier for businesses to adopt and support other alternatives. They won't have the excuse "Well *everyone* runs windows, so we just need to code/webdevelop for them."
      Basically the same thing that happened once Firefox reached a critical share. You can't well ignore 10% of your paying customers. Some companies may then realize that it's to their advantage to use OpenGL, for example, or release applications for all 3 platforms (such as Skype, WoW etc.)

      --
      If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
  6. headache inducing? by ya+really · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Any browser can induce a boatload of headaches to those who are uninformed on how to use it. Aside from Vista and all of it's obvious headaches such as drivers and legacy software not working, XP and 2k were not quite as bad.

    I think anyone will agree that even Linux can cause plenty of headaches as well if one is not careful. Sendmail was one of those battles I had a while ago.

  7. This is total FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    If TV and the movies have taught me anything, it's that at least 90% of the computers and laptops out there are Apples. Hell, even alien civilizations use Macs on their motherships.

  8. Sounds Great by Stevenovitch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I really can't see how anything but goodness can come from this. Afterall, if you really want to gain ground against an evil closed-source monopoly that charges too much for it's products, it makes perfect sense to switch to another company that even more protective of its source, charges even more for its products, and even has a nasty habit of keeping its platform as proprietary as possible.

    Success!

    1. Re:Sounds Great by pak9rabid · · Score: 3, Funny

      Afterall, if you really want to gain ground against an evil closed-source monopoly that charges too much for it's products...

      Are you referring to Apple or Microsoft?

    2. Re:Sounds Great by argent · · Score: 3, Interesting

      it makes perfect sense to switch to another company that even more protective of its source

      What, something happened to Apple Open Source?

      Oh no, it's all there, still tracking the latest release of OS X.

      Damn, you scared me for a second...

      (yes, I know they're only 99.44% pure and hold out a few kernel components, but "even more protective" than Microsoft? Give me a rotating plaid gold-decked break!)

    3. Re:Sounds Great by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe you're not understanding the power of being a monopolist. It matters very little what people switch to, so long as it is not controlled by Microsoft. If there are enough players in the desktop OS market so that Microsoft cannot control the direction of the industry and use it to prevent innovation in that and related markets then we all win.

      Good or bad we don't want to replace MS's domination of the industry with Apple's, we want t make sure one company doesn't have domination so all the companies have to work for us and keep us happy to make money.

    4. Re:Sounds Great by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A 50-50 split market isn't really that much better. It comes down to the lesser of two evils decision, and both companies will know that the alternative is generally not acceptable to their customer-base and so they're safe.

      That's a lot better than now where people just buy computers without even knowing they have a choice (Windows pre-installed is the only thing in the local store). Additionally, think of what a difference a 50-50 split would make to proprietary Web technologies (for example). It would sure kill IE only Web pages and push standards. And it isn't just the Web, but everything. Programs would be written to be portable to different OS's from the start, server technologies would all have to be able to handle standards, etc.

  9. As opposed to... by argent · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As opposed to Microsoft's "do it our way or the highway" approach to computing?

    1. Re:As opposed to... by argent · · Score: 2, Informative

      Same with Apple products (ipod and iphone)... what's your point?

      I don't buy those products. I don't have an iPod Touch or an iPhone or a Zune. I have a cheap Samsung cellphone that's just as locked down, but I sure wouldn't have spent hundreds of dollars on one. I prefer Microsoft keyboards and mice to Apple keyboards and mice. I don't buy brand names, I buy products.

      The point is Microsoft doesn't have a locked down and rigid approach to using their software.

      Sure they do. It's in a different area than Apple, but if you start messing around and replacing parts of the Vista kernel you'll eventually hit a "tilt switch" and it'll stop working. Apple ships the sources to almost all the kernel, and don't have anything even close to the tilt switches and time bombs and heavy-handed copy protection in Vista, or even XP.

      The "MS is worse" line

      What "MS is worse" line?

      you can't deflect criticism by saying it's ok because someone else does it...

      I'm not "deflecting criticism", I'm pointing out that you're in the same trap no matter what company you pick.

      Look, the problem is that you're looking at companies as if which company you do business with is a huge ethical or moral decision or something.

      The problem isn't that Apple is evil, or Microsoft is evil, or Google is evil, the problem is that corporations are amoral. They're legally required to be. They all screw somebody, some of the time. Buying a product from a company isn't picking sides. Even working for a company isn't picking sides. There's no sides to pick.

      To me Apple looks like this: "OS X is decent and they've been reasonably open with it so far, the hardware is anemic and I wish I didn't have to put up with it... c'est la vie, the iPod sucks (yes, really, I hate the click-wheel), their keyboards suck, their displays are decent, their mice are horrible...", and Microsoft looks like this: "Windows is a toxic swamp of badly designed APIs, their mice are pretty good, their keyboards are decent, Excel is pretty good but Word is horrible and the rest of Office is just mediocre crap, Outlook and IE are the biggest virus distribution system in the world, and I wish they'd really unleash Microsoft Research...", and so on.

      You can't say ANY organization as big as these can be characterized by ANY simple sentence.

  10. Vista: Unix's MVP by rtobyr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Has anyone else noticed that after Vista came out, Microsoft seems to have been losing ground? Netbooks/UMPC's are selling with OEM Linux like hot cakes, and Apple is steadily gaining market share. I also bet that the disappointment with SP1 made it even worse for ol' Billy. Even if Windows 7 is all that and a bag of chips, it'll be too late because Joe the Layman will have seen that Linux really is ready for prime time.

  11. Re:The ACTUAL choice is . . . by truthsearch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've never known anyone to buy their first Apple desktop or laptop without trying it out first. Surely they notice the interface is different.

  12. Linus causes plenty of headaches by Joce640k · · Score: 3, Insightful

    At least Windows users don't have to open a console window and recompile their webcam driver after the monthly patch.

    --
    No sig today...
  13. Games and Marketshare by Danathar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I REALLY hope that increased Marketshare will motivate games being ported to OS X. I fear it will have to be at least 20% for that to happen though.

    1. Re:Games and Marketshare by Amisinthe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Most games ARE ported. FPS types typically take a couple months, many are released simultaneously. I know there's always a really good title or two that never crosses over (looking at you Far Cry) but most games make it to the Mac.

      You might just not see them as they don't carry Mac versions in most stores that sell PC software.

  14. The New Apple Walled Garden by ionix5891 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Geeks and enthusiasts wearing Wordpress t-shirts, using laptops covered in Data Portability, Microformats and RSS stickers lined up enthusiastically on Friday to purchase a device that is completely proprietary, controlled and wrapped in DRM. The irony was lost on some as they ran home, docked their new devices into a proprietary media player and downloaded closed source applications wrapped in DRM.

    I am referring to the new iPhone - and the new Apple iPhone SDK that allows developers to build 'native' applications. The announcement was greeted with a web-wide standing ovation, especially from the developer community. The same community who demand all from Microsoft, feel gifted and special when Apple give them an inch of rope. When Microsoft introduced DRM into Media Player it was bad bad bad - and it wasn't even mandatory, it simply allowed content owners a way to distribute and sell content from anywhere.

    Apple has wrapped the iPhone SDK in enough licensing, security controls and right management that it would make the Microsoft Active Desktop team blush. The phone and platform that is certain to soon take second spot behind Symbian in the smart phone market is also the most restricted and closed. Applications can only be installed from a single source, iTunes, and open source applications and distribution is near impossible. How do you install an iPhone application without iTunes? Where are the community advocates arguing for a standard interface, openess and free code?

    What is more worrying is what the next move could be. Now that there is an AppStore with applications in iTunes, why wouldn't Apple move next to distribute all applications through iTunes - both desktop and mobile? There is no reason for them not to - the response to AppStore has been so enthusiastic that it is almost assured that you will start seeing desktop apps distributed in the same way. As soon as users are ground into looking at everything through iTunes, distribution of software in the traditional manner would be near impossible. Apple would become the gatekeeper, and both developers and users will enthusiastically pay the toll in exchange for pretty devices with pretty applications.

    Apple has a very strong following in the open source community, and I can no longer understand it nor justify my own support (I am writing this on a Macbook). They built OS X on FreeBSD (a project I have enthusiastically supported, contributed to and been a user of for 10 years or more), they built Safari on KHTML, and are now using libraries such as SproutCore in MobileMe. They have taken open source and everything it built and leveraged it to get to market faster - yet they have now, with iTunes and the new SDK, built a layer on top of it that excludes others. For Apple, open source is great when it furthers their own goals, but not when using it with Apple software where it may further the goals of others.

    The solution is simple. If you truly believe in open standards, open source and the good that it has created, then don't accept it. The spirit of open source was about building on the work of others in a transparent fashion, as the gains further the common good of all. Despite not taking over the desktop market, the philosophy and its resultants have destroyed the old enterprise market and many others. Open source and standards keep Microsoft and other big companies on their toes, the movement as a whole and the philosophy is very real. The solution isn't to adopt new licenses to try and prevent this, as it results in the mess that is GPL v 3.

    It should be very possible to attach a simple BSD license to code, and if a large company utilizes the effort from others in a way that is unacceptable - the market should be able to sort that out, we simply wont buy it. The community needs to do more than just wear their support for openess and standards on their sleeves (and on their laptops). The problem with Apple is that the blind demand is driven by a distorted reality, so those same developers who poured thousands of hours into the BSD kernel now turn around and purchase an iPhone running that code, but it is now tied up in DRM, licenses and restrictions placed there by others.

    1. Re:The New Apple Walled Garden by Space+cowboy · · Score: 2, Informative

      The major tenet here is complete bollocks, of course. It's easy to distribute open-source apps for the iPhone.

      Last night, I finally got my personal iphone development environment set up. I downloaded the 'accelerometer' example source (which graphs the accelerometer in real-time) - there's nothing special about this source code, I just wanted something a *little* more complex than 'hello world'. Any other source-code distribution would have illustrated my point just as well.

      So, I went through the various certificate-signing things, and created development, distribution, and ad-hoc certificates. I compiled the code and dragged my ad-hoc certificate and the application onto itunes, then synced with my phone.

      I now have some-random-program whose source-code I downloaded installed and running on my iphone. It needs the ad-hoc certificate at *compile-time*, which authorises my iPhone to be able to run the app, but if you're distributing open-source code, that's just fine and peachy - any recipient will want to compile it themselves anyway.

      So, here's the choices if you want to code open-source stuff:

      • Generate an ad-hoc certificate for a set of phones (max 100) and deliver the certificate along with the phone. You can distribute binaries like this for an identified set of phones.
      • Distribute your source code. Developers can compile their own version of the app and install onto their own phone using their own ad-hoc certificates
      • Distribute the source-code on your website and the binary via the app-store (for free).

      The *only* barrier to #2 is the cost of the developer program, ($99) which isn't much of a barrier...

      Simon.

      --
      Physicists get Hadrons!
  15. Did the Gartner report have more information? by kithrup · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The summaries I've seen indicated that Apple had gotten to 3rd place in terms of hardware sales -- not that people were sticking with Mac OS X instead of Windows on their new machines.

    I assume, of course, that a large number of people who buy a Mac stick with the native OS... but I'm not a market research firm, so I don't have to have actual data to back my beliefs :).

  16. Normal people using macs now? by Zakabog · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Hard to tell, but it's good to see that normal people (not just us geeks) are choosing to go with a different OS

    Most of the Mac owners I know are normal people. Either students that got an imac laptop from their school, older people who wanted an easy to use computer, or an artist (musician, photographer, graphic designer, etc.) who wanted a powerful machine that wouldn't get infected with a ton of spyware and viruses in a week.

    None of the Mac owners I know (besides myself) are very tech savvy, they just know that their iPod works great, their PC is always infected with "viruses" (usually some spyware they installed cause it promised free smileys), and their friend's Mac never has any problems. Personally I didn't buy a Mac just for a different OS. If I want to toy around in something other than Windows, I just go install Linux on whatever old computers are lying around the house. I bought the Mac specifically for Aperture, and Final Cut Pro since I do a lot of photography and video work. I know there exists open source software or expensive Windows software to do that stuff, it's just none of it is as powerful or easy to use as the Mac versions. I don't need Mac OS to have a stable computer, I just like the software that exists for the Mac.

  17. Why would OSX increase linux sales? by HockeyPuck · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I use linux/*nix all day long at work, and I have a mac at home, yet there's very few things that I use on OSX that are *nix related. Maybe running 'top' is about it, and that's a rarity. I picked OSX because of the applications and how they are all integrated in with each other, pure and simple. My laptop at work is a company provided XP system and while not having the polish/eye candy that OSX has, it gets the job done.

    When linux distros have the same ease of use, smooth upgrades and most importantly application integration (with each other AND the OS), then I can see people like myself thinking about saving a few bucks and going with Linux instead.

    I assume that when I buy a dishwasher, the interface is intuitive and it just works, why should we treat computers any differently?

  18. Apples and Oranges? by Andy_R · · Score: 2, Insightful

    These figures just count units shipped in the US, they exclude mini-notebooks and handhelds and don't take into account profitability or unit costs.

    If you go by market capitalisation, Apple isn't behind Dell and HP, it's ahead of both, but behind IBM who don't even get a look-in in the units shipped list.

    --
    A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
  19. Confirmed: by sootman · · Score: 4, Funny

    2008 will be the year of OS X on the desktop! :-)

    --
    Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
  20. GNUstep by sagefire.org · · Score: 4, Informative

    That would be GNUstep http://gnustep.org/

    It's got a long way to go, but eventually, they intend to make .apps from OSX run natively. Remember mac OSX is really NeXTstep 5 (or something).

  21. The Wireless Barrier by tsstahl · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "...and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption?"

    Until Linux wireless is brain dead easy, the answer is NO.

    1. Re:The Wireless Barrier by ndansmith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "...and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption?"

      Until Linux wireless is brain dead easy, the answer is NO.

      Last time I checked, NetworkManager is far better than Windows' native wireless client, and the same as or better than Apple's.

  22. Are you living in 1992? by tjstork · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Apple has seen these numbers before. They're currently on a crest, but they'll sink and rise again. They have an upper limit of around 10-15% market share. They've made it quite clear that they don't *want* any more than that, and aren't interested in meeting the needs of the rest of the market.

    I've got my share of -1 postings from ripping Apple but on this you are off base. I think thi would have been true in 1992 but it is certainly not true today. It's a completely different world out there. Personal computers running Windows have become corporate computing appliances, not personal ones, where Apple has doggedly focused on being a personal computer and is imaginatively building a software, service, and shopping stack designed to build a premium consumer brand.

    If they decoupled their anaemic hardware offerings from their OS, they could see double digit growth yearly, but failing that they'll stay right where they've always been.

    Apple has double digit growth yearly. Apple stock is kicking total butt right now in a stock market that sucks. I wish I would have bought them a couple of years ago when Jobs first came back... I'd be retired!

    Secondly, Apple hardware is hardly anemic. Apple's new PowerMac, for example, is the latest Harperton Xeon and while it might be a tad pricier than the equivalent from the likes of Dell, I guarantee you that the entire service experience, from Apple store to home, is very, very good.

    Christ, I'm talking myself into buying a Macintosh... and that's the thing about Apple - you walk into the store, and it reflects the sort of perfection that Americans expect from products.. indeed, Apple has gone beyond even Japanese cars when it comes to the detail of their products...

    --
    This is my sig.
  23. Re:Magical number by argent · · Score: 4, Funny

    Magic isn't supposed to be logical. That's why it's magic. If it was logical it'd be something else. But not magic.

  24. Curious timing for this announcement by spyrochaete · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I find it suspicious that Mac adoption has exploded shortly after the release of Bootcamp. I'd like to know what fraction of this 8.5% of Mac users is dual booting to Windows.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I figure the Mac revolution would have happened when OSX was released, or maybe when the iPod was launched. Why should the surge happen today?

    1. Re:Curious timing for this announcement by shawnce · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The simple fact is no single thing is the cause... Intel Macs, iPod, Apple applications (consumer and professional), Mac OS X, iTunes, expanded developer interest, Apple ads, Vista, iPhone, etc. have all fed into the Mac growth trend that has been taking place for a few years now (actually it has been happening for several years but other factors have hidden/offset the growth).

      It is really about a brand mindshare and lowering the barriers.

  25. Re:Catch the developers. Market share follows by argent · · Score: 2, Funny

    Make application development a breeze. Windows has given away free Visual Studio express editions that can enable developers to program next generation WPF applications for free.

    It doesn't run on my Mac or my UNIX boxes. I have to buy Windows to run Visual Studio, like I have to buy OS X to run XCode, and I have to buy Linux... well, OK, I don't have to buy Linux.

    XCode comes only if you buy the expensive Mac.

    But XCode is included in the cheaper Macs, too, and frankly I don't really WANT to know about the sexual problems of my IDE.

  26. Re:What about personally built machines? by argent · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How many macs have been built by the owner?

    Three here. OK, I started with an Apple motherboard, but I had to get a third-party processor, replace the RAM, add cache, video cards, case... XPostFacto let me install OS X on "unsupported" Macs. 7600 upgraded to a G3/400, G3 upgraded to a G4/533, and another G3 upgrade for my daughter. After Apple abandoned the headless desktop in '97 I didn't have much alternative but extreme upgrading until the Mac mini came along.

  27. Corrections by mpapet · · Score: 5, Insightful

    all it takes to run Windows is to pop in the disk and let it install

    This little bit of folklore deserves to die.

    1. Got a system restore disk? (Not an OEM-style installer!) Then sure, many minutes later your "my documents" is gone, but you are pretty much back up to day-1 status.

    2. Got an OEM installer disk? How many of those disks do not include the drivers for devices like, ohhh your *ethernet* adapter? That is the purest soul-sucking time sink ever.

    Apple's installer is pretty great for this reason. I seem to recall it kept my wife's home files intact.

     

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
  28. One is not many by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    The point is that the registry is essentially one difficult to edit text file that bloats for the life of your Windows installation. Linux et. al. use application specific text files, each which can be ported, edited, removed, copied, etc. as required.

  29. Re:This isn't news (unless you're a fanboy) by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Apple has seen these numbers before.

    Not since 1995.

    They're currently on a crest, but they'll sink and rise again.

    Sales are different different quarters, but year-over-year they haven't been going in cycles for over a decade. They've just been slowly going up. The trick is predicting how high up they'll go, as eventually everyone loses share again.

    They have an upper limit of around 10-15% market share.

    They haven't had market share that high in twenty years, when the industry was completely different.

    They've made it quite clear that they don't *want* any more than that, and aren't interested in meeting the needs of the rest of the market.

    I disagree. They want more market share and they're expanding both their PC business and their other markets. Apple is just conservative about expanding into new segments of the PC market, but they've slowly been targeting parts of the market both lower and higher than previously.

    If they decoupled their anaemic hardware offerings from their OS, they could see double digit growth yearly, but failing that they'll stay right where they've always been.

    If Apple decoupled their hardware and OS sales they'd go out of the OS business. The desktop OS market is monopolized. Nobody with any business sense is stupid enough to try that. Until MS monopoly is seriously weakened, Apple needs a business plan that bypasses that market.

  30. Never enough market share if you're in 2nd place by Weasel+Boy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption?"

    Absolutely not.

    Some of you may recall that, back in the late 1980s, the Mac's market share was about 18%. For a period of time lasting into the mid-1990s, Apple was the #1 maker of PCs (IBM, Compaq and Dell rounded out the top 4; HP, Packard Bell, Gateway and a few others fought over the scraps).

    If you take into consideration the fact that Macs lasted longer than PCs in those days and Mac users tended to buy more software (claims supported by numerous published Gartner studies), you could make a fair argument that Macs represented as much as perhaps a third of the total installed base and of the potential software market.

    This was not seen as sufficient. Throughout the entire mid-80s through late-90s, the PC press maintained a steady drum-beat of, "Apple doesn't have enough market share to survive." Of course Apple's not going to make it if the press keeps telling everyone they can't! Combine this with some of Apple's strategic management blunders, and you have a perfect recipe for also-ran status.

    Not that any of this is necessary to ensure Windows' continued market dominance. Most businesses are going to use what other businesses in their industry use. Most people are going to buy for home use what they are comfortable with at work. Windows' prevalence is its own best selling feature. This is why Microsoft enjoys a "natural monopoly", and why it will take a bigger disruptive market force than anything we've seen so far in the past 20+ years to change it.

  31. Schizophrenic Mac Hardware by Cordath · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think you have to be a little insane to use some Apple hardware. Does anyone remember the puck mice? The ultra-flat desktop keyboards they're selling now are almost as bad. The earbuds that come with iPods are all universally crappy, both in build and sound quality. It's bizarre that, with Jobs exerting such obsessive compulsive control over Apple's output, crap products like these somehow slip through the cracks. It's almost like Jobs is schizoid.

    Then again, if Apple just isn't good at designing certain things, what are they supposed to do? Start selling updated IBM Model-M keyboards with their high-end desktops? Grado's with the iPods? Paint microsoft mice white!!? It's almost unimaginable, and I see that as a problem.

    This is my main beef with Apple. They're too image conscious. Admittedly, some of their user-base just wants to be fashionable, but is being fashionable really a long-term plan for success? Given how much of an asshole he is, sooner or later Jobs is going to become "uncool". Increased market share and, hence, lessened uniqueness isn't going to help. Normal people will use uncool hardware if it's *good*. This is a lesson I feel Apple needs to learn.

    1. Re:Schizophrenic Mac Hardware by commodoresloat · · Score: 4, Informative

      I agree about the hockey puck but have you ever used the new ultraslim keyboards? This is the best keyboard I've used since the AEK II, which I have always missed since they stopped putting serial ports on Macs... the recent keyboards before the flat ones were abominations, I was always pushing the control key by accident because of the way I hold my hands while typing. These flat keyboards are great though, terrific form factor and just the right amount of clickety click when you type. The wireless one is a little too small -- good for a entertainment center situation but not for a desktop. But the wired one is terrific, and not too pricey either.

      As for the earbuds, you're right, but it doesn't matter. There's no point in them including Grados since well over 90% of their market won't appreciate or care about the difference (they're playing mp3s anyway!), and those of us who do care already plan to spend $100+ on something better. Personally I wouldn't want to be locked into an audiophile solution chosen by Apple -- I'd rather throw out the crappy ones they include and use my Shures rather than have to pay a large premium for good earbuds that I probably wouldn't use anyway.

    2. Re:Schizophrenic Mac Hardware by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think you have to be a little insane to use some Apple hardware. Does anyone remember the puck mice? The ultra-flat desktop keyboards they're selling now are almost as bad. The earbuds that come with iPods are all universally crappy, both in build and sound quality. It's bizarre that, with Jobs exerting such obsessive compulsive control over Apple's output, crap products like these somehow slip through the cracks. It's almost like Jobs is schizoid.

      I'd have to sort of agree - it's a mixed bag and it is frustrating. Stupid things like the recessed jack on the iPhone, stupid things like the Mighty Mouse (come on Jobs, give me a break, I've had $5.00 junk box mice work better than that thing). The new keyboards are interesting - When I got my Mac Pro I immediately ditched the keyboard for some old Model M knockoff that I had sitting about. After a while, I decided to play with it and I'm deciding I like it. The feel is actually pretty good. Of course, this is a completely subjective thing and YMMV, but yeah, sometimes Apple just gets Too Cute.

      (Opens up the MacPro - stares fondly at one of the best industrial designs around - closes it and goes back to "work".)

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:Schizophrenic Mac Hardware by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Informative

      My issues with el Mighty Mouse:

      1. The stupid trackball gets clogged very easily and is very hard to clean.
      2. The stupid trackball is too small for fine control. Great for whizzing the cursor along vast expanses of screen, bad for little adjustements.
      3. If I don't have the mouse perfectly aligned, I can't get the "right mouse" button - I get the "side button" which defaults to Expose, which is useful, but isn't the right mouse button. It's just over designed and not overly well executed. They could have just put a blasted button in there instead of getting all fancy.
      4. The whole thing is hard take apart and clean. I'm sorry, mice and keyboards need to be periodically cleaned or tossed and the MM is a little pricey to toss routinely.
      5. The ergonomics aren't very good, I much prefer the Logitech mice. Easier to use for extended periods of time.

      Of course, it's all quite subjective. I'm just glad that there are good third party options.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    4. Re:Schizophrenic Mac Hardware by myowntrueself · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's bizarre that, with Jobs exerting such obsessive compulsive control over Apple's output, crap products like these somehow slip through the cracks. It's almost like Jobs is schizoid

      I think he might be...

      I use a Mac; I switched from Linux on the desktop to OSX over a year ago, for work only.

      Theres a little quote I once found which explained everything to me... made me *understand* OSX.

      Something like:

      "OSX is like a idiot-savant; both inspired and retarded at the same time."

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    5. Re:Schizophrenic Mac Hardware by dcam · · Score: 3, Informative

      You missed one.

      If you are resting your left finger on the shell and you right click, it left clicks.

      --
      meh
  32. Re:Magical number by DJNephilim · · Score: 2, Funny

    If magic were logical, it'd be science.

    --
    Enemy of the Sun
  33. Re:double digit market share growth by Darth · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Apple's stock price has been buoyed not by it's PC offerings, but by iPods, and that only happened after they decoupled them from their PCs and let non-fanboys buy them.

    For a while that was true. However, in the past year or two Apple's stock price has been riding the earnings created by exploding growth of their computer offerings. For the last year, growth in ipod sales has been pretty flat.

    Apple's hardware selection is certainly anaemic. They have, what, half a dozen models? For the vast majority of the market, their offerings just aren't suitable.

    I don't know that I agree with that. The growth in the sales of macs suggests that a lot of consumers are either desperate to get away from windows, or have decided that the models offered in the mac lineup are suitable for their needs. In my experience, macs provide everything the majority of home computer owners need and provide it in a simple and attractive way.

    The dissatisfaction with their offerings, in my opinion, comes primarily from gamers (a group not served by the mac lineup) and more technical users who have specific hardware desires and generally want to build their own system.

    A lot more people would be willing to shell out a few hundred dollars for OS X if Apple would be willing to sell it to them for the hardware they do want.

    This will never happen. Doing that would probably destroy Apple as a company. Remember, they are a hardware company first and their software and services exist to support the hardware.

    --
    Darth --
    Nil Mortifi, Sine Lucre
  34. Re:double digit market share growth by cowscows · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think you vastly overestimate the number of people who want to spend a few hundred dollars on an operating system. If you asked the average person on the street, they'd probably tell you that they didn't even have to buy an operating system, it came for free on their computer.

    As for Apple licensing OSX to dell, HP, etc; It'd be foolish for them to expect to get a few hundred dollars per OEM copy of their OS. They'd have to be price competitive with Windows. A non-geek going to dell's website and pricing out two machines identical except for the operating system is going to think that's ridiculous. Looking on Newegg real quick, Vista home Premium OEM is $109. Dell likely pays significantly less. And if MS felt like they were being threatened by Apple, they could lower their prices even more, and Apple would have to follow.

    Apple's moving more hardware than they ever have before, and they're doing it with profit margins that the rest of the industry can barely dream of. Why would they want to change their strategy?

    --

    One time I threw a brick at a duck.

  35. Slow down, cowboy by westlake · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption? Hard to tell, but it's good to see that normal people (not just us geeks) are choosing to go with a different OS, rather than staying with the headache-inducing Windows.
    .

    Top Operating System Share Trend

    August 07 - June 08

    Windows Vista 16%
    Up 10%

    The MacIntel 5%.
    Up 2%

    The Mac 3%
    Unchanged.

    Linux 0.8%.
    Up 0.3%

    In these stats, adoption of Vista appears to be accelerating and the Mac stagnating as we head into late summer.
    MacIntel is where the action is for OSX and the MacIntel has BootCamp.
    Desktop Linux draws flies.

    Top Operating System Share Trend

    Windows 91% - All Versions
    Down 2%
    The Mac and the MacIntel 8%
    Up 2%

    Apple sells an upscale urban life-style. Microsoft solid middle class value.
    Apple has the boutique in Manhattan. Microsoft the big-box retailer in every township populous enough to rate a single traffic light.

    Long term and with the economy in recession, who do you think holds the stronger cards?

    1. Re:Slow down, cowboy by Senjutsu · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Long term and with the economy in recession, who do you think holds the stronger cards?

      Historically, luxury brands do well during recessions - their customers have enough money that they can exploit the opportunities presented by bear markets.

      Middle class brands have a lot of trouble, though, because it's the middle class that gets fucked sideways during recessions.

  36. Re:Mac Users are Silly by r_benchley · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I may be in the minority when it comes to OS preference and Slashdot but does no one recognize the fact that Apple has been making shitty business decisions that take years to work out if they ever do.

    Their "shitty business decisions" as you put it, currently have them placed as the 12th largest company in the US with a market cap of over $152 billion, right behind Google and IBM. As far as marketshare goes, there are steps that they could take to pull closer to Microsoft in terms of OS adoption, but in terms of profitability, they're doing just fine.

  37. Actually those are pretty good innards all around by MsGeek · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...and at this juncture some of the best Windows computers are Macs. You heard me right. They also make some of the best Linux computers. Now that MacIntel is the standard architecture for Macintosh, some people are actually running Windows or Linux on them. The reason why they do it? It's because quality control at the major PC manufacturers is down in the dumpster. If you want something that's built as good on the PC side, you have to go with boutique manufacturers like VoodooPC or Alienware, and even those are questionable because VoodooPC is now owned by HP and Alienware is owned by Dell. Since Lenovo took over the ThinkPad and ThinkCentre lines from IBM, quality has gone down the crapper quicker than you can say "ni hao."

    Of course, part of the experience of Macs includes Mac OS X. And the folks who buy Macs only to put Windows or Linux on them are kind of unclear on the concept, in my not so humble opinion. Mac OS X is right now the best Unix or Unix-like operating system on the desktop. Now that Leopard is at 10.5.4 it is just plain awesome and just plain works. 10.5.2 was good for me too and so was 10.5.3, but I had no occasion to use 802.11n connectivity and I know that broke with 10.5.2. With 10.5.4 even those with 802.11n wireless access points are happy.

    Still, if it means more people with Macs regardless of what OS they run, that's fine by me. More Macs sold equals more visibility for Mac. Everyone assumes that Macs run Mac OS X so the bigger the market share the more likely people will consider Mac users as more than fringies.

    --
    Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
  38. All computer suck by quintessentialk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This won't win points for being useful or insightful commentary, but my experience is that if you use your computer for more than typing word documents and surfing the web, you'll run into problems sooner or later. Computers are hard to use, period. And I say this as an engineer and scientist, not a computing neophyte.

    Maybe it is an confusing GUI, or a required preference tweak that you shouldn't need to even know about. Maybe it is an incompatibility with a piece of harware or software whose vendors claim should 'just work.' Maybe it is a poorly written or patronizing but useless 'help' feature. All computers show some type of computing evil sooner or later.

    Thanks to hard work by a lot of people, I think Windows and the Mac OS are 'equally decent for most tasks'. But let's not pretend either is 'easy to use' or 'good'.

  39. INI! by antdude · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I actually like INI files (reminds me of Linux, UNIX, etc.) during Windows 3.x days. Easier to manage! Registry sucks!

    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  40. Operating systems matter less by chuck · · Score: 2

    It makes sense that more people will use non-Windows operating systems as operating systems become more irrelevant. Nowadays the computer is the web browser.

  41. Re:Actually those are pretty good innards all arou by nilbog · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You are absolutely right. I worked for HP for quite some time, and believe me - the commodity hardware that $500 HP computer is built with is dirt compared to what Apple uses.

    Think about it. HP sells a consumer laptop for $500 that includes all the bells and whistles, a webcam, shiny media buttons, etc. etc. Then they sell a business end laptop for 3x as much that is slower and has less features. Do you think there is a reason for this?

    Consumer laptops are made with the absolute cheapest parts HP can source THAT DAY. Two laptops sitting next to each other on the shelf at the store can have different parts but look exactly the same. The quality control in this situation is, understandably, not good.

    Business machines are the same in an entire series. They use good, proven hardware, and every single machine uses the same stuff. That way you can flash the same OS image onto all of them without problems. You can't do that with the consumer stuff.

    So when people compare Apple to HP or other manufacturers, keep in mind that it's the business class machines that you should be looking at. Apple doesn't use commodity hardware - they use the same piece in every unit in a series, and they use parts that are high quality and proven to work well.

    This is why people think Apple is expensive, when it's actually quite competitive.

    --
    or else!
  42. Re:Once you've gone Mac by huckamania · · Score: 2

    It's supposed to be News for Nerds... not News for Ignorant, Inbred, Illiterate, Apple fan-bois.

    Idiots talking about how this is going to decrease Windows usage? About how this could be good for Linux?

    Here's another hint: Dell sells more linux boxes then Apple. But you wouldn't know that from the summary or any of the stupid, waste of space comments, including yours. Just M$ bashing and Jobs jobbing.

  43. Mainstream demographics too. by ChrisA90278 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "normal people (not just us geeks) are choosing to go with a different OS, rather than staying with the headache-inducing Windows."

    What's really interesting is the demographics of the people who buy Apple computers. You think it would be young people. Not now Apple costomers tend to be much older and much better educated then the average PC buyer. Turns out if you are a 40+ year old professional with a graduate level education you are a prime demographic for Apple's Mac. These people tend to NOT be geeks of "on the fringe" Certainly these people are as full on mainstream as it gets. (and there have the money to buy what they like.)

  44. Re:Actually those are pretty good innards all arou by Tony6785 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You do understand that just because Dell owns Alienware and HP owns VoodooPC doesn't mean they necessarily changed, or control, their design and production process, right? The point of a business merger like those is to get the parent company into the niche the bought company ocupied and to SHARE beneficial technologies (like Dell's purchasing power to lower Alienware's cost of parts). It would be a complete waste of money if we had bought Alienware and then just decided to make them Dell's with an Alienware exterior. We learn from them, improve our XPS systems and maintain their brand by allowing them to continue producing high level products and make even more money by paying less for the parts through our suppliers. /Dell Ops Manager

  45. Re:Actually those are pretty good innards all arou by toddestan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Probably heat related. Most of the recent Macs seem to run really warm, which is likely because Apple wants to make them as thin as possible while skimping on the cooling to keep them quiet. I predict that a lot of the new iMacs/Macbooks/Macbook Pros aren't really going to last more than a couple years because of this, unless they aren't powered on much.

  46. Re:Actually those are pretty good innards all arou by ignavus · · Score: 2, Funny

    Cheap $500 computer finally breaks down about the time you were wishing you could upgrade to a much newer, faster machine. Perfect timing, perfect excuse to upgrade ("Darn it! I just have to buy a brand new *fast* box...", he says with mock bitterness)

    Expensive over-engineered Mac runs and runs for years after its technology has become so out-of-date that museums begin phoning you to see if you would donate your Mac as an example of ancient hardware. Every time you ask for an upgrade, your boss says "What's wrong? It still works, doesn't it?"

    See, I prefer the cheap and nasty PC that costs a third of the price, lasts a third of the time, and gives up around the time I want a newer PC. I don't need to pay for a machine to keep going long past its prime. I want a PC that will last 3 years, not a cathedral that will last 3 centuries.

    When the technology changes as fast as PC tech does, built-in obsolescence - cheap throwaways - aren't such a stupid idea. For the same price as a Mac I will have a newer, faster PC most of the time. And tech prices keep coming down.

    Buy cheap, buy short-term, as it will always be cheaper and faster tomorrow.

    --
    I am anarch of all I survey.
  47. Re:Once you've gone Mac by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Try counting to ten. Apparently the deep breath didn't help you much.

    So Apple sold 38% more computers last year in the US, compared to the industry average growth rate of 4%. You're right, that's hardware sales, but what OS do you suppose most of those people buying Macs are running on them? Sure, a few might buy the pretty hardware and install Vista on it, but I bet most of them are running... OS X, a non-Microsoft OS.

    Amazing, hey?

    PS: Yes, I agree, your comments have been a waste of space thus far. Kind of entertaining though.

  48. These are only US sale figures by MrAngryForNoReason · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you RTFA then you will see that the percentages stated are for US sales only and the 3rd place is only from one set of figures. The other set places Apple 4th in the US after Acer.

    Looking at worldwide figures they don't even make the top 5. Everytime someone trots out one of these "Apple market share exploding" articles it is always based on highly misleading data. For example the recent article claiming that Apple has 66% of the over $1000 computer market ignoring the fact that the 66% only takes into account retail sales and only in the US.

    Looking around most high street stores you would be hard pressed to buy a machine that cost more than $1000 and wasn't made by Apple. This isn't because they dominate the market but because they only offer high-price options and sell a disproptionately large amount through bricks and mortar stores opposed to online.

    Removing the 'over $1000' filter brings that down to 14% and that is still only including US retail sales.

    I am not trying to imply that they aren't doing well or that their market share isn't growing, but haven't we had enough of these flamebait articles with misleading summaries based on incomplete figures?

  49. positive effect on desktop Linux adoption? uh, no. by whjwhj · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption?

    What does that have to do with anything? Why is this question even being asked?

    The answer is 'no', obviously. Several reasons. First off, nobody uses Linux on the desktop. Last time I saw the number it was hovering around 1.3%. Neck and neck with Windows 98. Second, the entire user interface philosophy between Macs and Linux are completely opposite. Apple strives for clean interfaces, consistency, and just enough features to make 95% of us happy. Linux doesn't have a cohesive strategy for it's UI. Some of it is decent, but the bulk of it is a mess. Average folks still cannot use Linux.

    At least, these days, there's a growing realization of the problem within the Linux community. Distros like Ubuntu are doing they're part to make things better. But there is still a long, long, LONG ways to go before Linux catches up with Windows in terms of usability. And even farther to go to catch up to Apple.

    The notion that Linux will benefit from Apple's rise in market share is fiction. Won't happen.

    whj