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Apple Climbs Into Third Place In U.S. PC Market
Tibor the Hun writes "According to Gartner and IDC, Apple now has between 7.8 and 8.5% of market share. While those numbers are not astonishing, they are not insignificant, and their growth does not seem to be slowing down. Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption? Hard to tell, but it's good to see that normal people (not just us geeks) are choosing to go with a different OS, rather than staying with the headache-inducing Windows."
And since when have Apple users been considered "normal" around here?
Or did you really mean 'orthogonal'
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
when will a project similar to WINE come out for OSX? I have seen all sorts of apps that run on Mac and/or PC's but not linux. One would think it would almost be easier to "not emulate" the OSX software, as it is mostly unix based. If more software starts coming out for mac and PC, it might be easier to get the Mac software running under linux.
What are we going to do tonight Brain?
While those numbers are not astonishing
Not astonishing? A single company, offering a proprietary product*, is outdoing nearly all of several hundred companies combined who build to a given standard! Astonishing indeed!
* - including hardware, OS, and a broad range of application software
Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
Why is 10% "magic"? This number is significant because that's how many fingers we have?
Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption?
Wow, talk about a strange corollary. Linux desktop adoption has nothing at all to do with Mac market share. It would have been just as valid to write, "Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that lead a surge in kitten adoptions?"
Personally, though, adopt a cat anyway.
Attention deficit disorder is a complicated issue, spanning several major... HEY LET'S GO RIDE BIKES!
Are they buying a different OS or a pretty box? Not to overgeneralize, but Fruit are pretty, and many of the Fruit owners I know bought it because it looks good. They have no concern for the OS.
Why is this thus? What is the reason for this thusness?
I be a pseudo-geek but I don't like Apple's "do it our way or the highway" approach to computing.
Any browser can induce a boatload of headaches to those who are uninformed on how to use it. Aside from Vista and all of it's obvious headaches such as drivers and legacy software not working, XP and 2k were not quite as bad.
I think anyone will agree that even Linux can cause plenty of headaches as well if one is not careful. Sendmail was one of those battles I had a while ago.
If TV and the movies have taught me anything, it's that at least 90% of the computers and laptops out there are Apples. Hell, even alien civilizations use Macs on their motherships.
I really can't see how anything but goodness can come from this. Afterall, if you really want to gain ground against an evil closed-source monopoly that charges too much for it's products, it makes perfect sense to switch to another company that even more protective of its source, charges even more for its products, and even has a nasty habit of keeping its platform as proprietary as possible.
Success!
As opposed to Microsoft's "do it our way or the highway" approach to computing?
Back before Windows 3.0 they had the destkop publishing market practically all to themselves.
Was it Steve Jobs who said the world would never need more than 2 shades of black and white?
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Has anyone else noticed that after Vista came out, Microsoft seems to have been losing ground? Netbooks/UMPC's are selling with OEM Linux like hot cakes, and Apple is steadily gaining market share. I also bet that the disappointment with SP1 made it even worse for ol' Billy. Even if Windows 7 is all that and a bag of chips, it'll be too late because Joe the Layman will have seen that Linux really is ready for prime time.
they only surpassed Gateway/Acer so that is not much of a bragging right.
At least Windows users don't have to open a console window and recompile their webcam driver after the monthly patch.
No sig today...
I REALLY hope that increased Marketshare will motivate games being ported to OS X. I fear it will have to be at least 20% for that to happen though.
Geeks and enthusiasts wearing Wordpress t-shirts, using laptops covered in Data Portability, Microformats and RSS stickers lined up enthusiastically on Friday to purchase a device that is completely proprietary, controlled and wrapped in DRM. The irony was lost on some as they ran home, docked their new devices into a proprietary media player and downloaded closed source applications wrapped in DRM.
I am referring to the new iPhone - and the new Apple iPhone SDK that allows developers to build 'native' applications. The announcement was greeted with a web-wide standing ovation, especially from the developer community. The same community who demand all from Microsoft, feel gifted and special when Apple give them an inch of rope. When Microsoft introduced DRM into Media Player it was bad bad bad - and it wasn't even mandatory, it simply allowed content owners a way to distribute and sell content from anywhere.
Apple has wrapped the iPhone SDK in enough licensing, security controls and right management that it would make the Microsoft Active Desktop team blush. The phone and platform that is certain to soon take second spot behind Symbian in the smart phone market is also the most restricted and closed. Applications can only be installed from a single source, iTunes, and open source applications and distribution is near impossible. How do you install an iPhone application without iTunes? Where are the community advocates arguing for a standard interface, openess and free code?
What is more worrying is what the next move could be. Now that there is an AppStore with applications in iTunes, why wouldn't Apple move next to distribute all applications through iTunes - both desktop and mobile? There is no reason for them not to - the response to AppStore has been so enthusiastic that it is almost assured that you will start seeing desktop apps distributed in the same way. As soon as users are ground into looking at everything through iTunes, distribution of software in the traditional manner would be near impossible. Apple would become the gatekeeper, and both developers and users will enthusiastically pay the toll in exchange for pretty devices with pretty applications.
Apple has a very strong following in the open source community, and I can no longer understand it nor justify my own support (I am writing this on a Macbook). They built OS X on FreeBSD (a project I have enthusiastically supported, contributed to and been a user of for 10 years or more), they built Safari on KHTML, and are now using libraries such as SproutCore in MobileMe. They have taken open source and everything it built and leveraged it to get to market faster - yet they have now, with iTunes and the new SDK, built a layer on top of it that excludes others. For Apple, open source is great when it furthers their own goals, but not when using it with Apple software where it may further the goals of others.
The solution is simple. If you truly believe in open standards, open source and the good that it has created, then don't accept it. The spirit of open source was about building on the work of others in a transparent fashion, as the gains further the common good of all. Despite not taking over the desktop market, the philosophy and its resultants have destroyed the old enterprise market and many others. Open source and standards keep Microsoft and other big companies on their toes, the movement as a whole and the philosophy is very real. The solution isn't to adopt new licenses to try and prevent this, as it results in the mess that is GPL v 3.
It should be very possible to attach a simple BSD license to code, and if a large company utilizes the effort from others in a way that is unacceptable - the market should be able to sort that out, we simply wont buy it. The community needs to do more than just wear their support for openess and standards on their sleeves (and on their laptops). The problem with Apple is that the blind demand is driven by a distorted reality, so those same developers who poured thousands of hours into the BSD kernel now turn around and purchase an iPhone running that code, but it is now tied up in DRM, licenses and restrictions placed there by others.
The summaries I've seen indicated that Apple had gotten to 3rd place in terms of hardware sales -- not that people were sticking with Mac OS X instead of Windows on their new machines.
I assume, of course, that a large number of people who buy a Mac stick with the native OS... but I'm not a market research firm, so I don't have to have actual data to back my beliefs :).
Hard to tell, but it's good to see that normal people (not just us geeks) are choosing to go with a different OS
Most of the Mac owners I know are normal people. Either students that got an imac laptop from their school, older people who wanted an easy to use computer, or an artist (musician, photographer, graphic designer, etc.) who wanted a powerful machine that wouldn't get infected with a ton of spyware and viruses in a week.
None of the Mac owners I know (besides myself) are very tech savvy, they just know that their iPod works great, their PC is always infected with "viruses" (usually some spyware they installed cause it promised free smileys), and their friend's Mac never has any problems. Personally I didn't buy a Mac just for a different OS. If I want to toy around in something other than Windows, I just go install Linux on whatever old computers are lying around the house. I bought the Mac specifically for Aperture, and Final Cut Pro since I do a lot of photography and video work. I know there exists open source software or expensive Windows software to do that stuff, it's just none of it is as powerful or easy to use as the Mac versions. I don't need Mac OS to have a stable computer, I just like the software that exists for the Mac.
I use linux/*nix all day long at work, and I have a mac at home, yet there's very few things that I use on OSX that are *nix related. Maybe running 'top' is about it, and that's a rarity. I picked OSX because of the applications and how they are all integrated in with each other, pure and simple. My laptop at work is a company provided XP system and while not having the polish/eye candy that OSX has, it gets the job done.
When linux distros have the same ease of use, smooth upgrades and most importantly application integration (with each other AND the OS), then I can see people like myself thinking about saving a few bucks and going with Linux instead.
I assume that when I buy a dishwasher, the interface is intuitive and it just works, why should we treat computers any differently?
These figures just count units shipped in the US, they exclude mini-notebooks and handhelds and don't take into account profitability or unit costs.
If you go by market capitalisation, Apple isn't behind Dell and HP, it's ahead of both, but behind IBM who don't even get a look-in in the units shipped list.
A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
2008 will be the year of OS X on the desktop! :-)
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
That would be GNUstep http://gnustep.org/
It's got a long way to go, but eventually, they intend to make .apps from OSX run natively. Remember mac OSX is really NeXTstep 5 (or something).
I don't think I've run into anyone outside slashdot who bought a Mac but didn't run OS X on it. Given the high cost, marginal hardware, and oddball design of Apple's hardware it still seems weird to get anything less than the whole ball of wax.
But I'd also be interested in actual figures for "Joe Consumer".
This upward trend in marketshare trend might be over if Pystar wins their court case.
On a side note, I still like desktop towers as opposed to laptops and mini-computers. But I quess the market is headed in the laptop and iMac direction.
You live in the same world that most of those who visit slashdot are in: geek world. You notice the smallest thing about linux, such as netbooks selling OEM with linux. The average person does not visit slashdot, nor do they buy a new computer that often.
Seriously, you want to get the masses on linux? Then market the thing. Where's the TV ads during the superbowl? Everyone knows who Microsoft is, everyone knows what Windows is. A lot of people now know what Apple and MacOSX are, and soon more will. Marketing is key, and it's what linux misses the most. I won't even get into the multiple distribution chaos that is linux either. When linux is "Linux v3.0", and that's it, and it has everything, and you can choose your UI and stuff after just getting that one thing, and it supports all major hardware out right now, and it is marketed to joe six pack, well then you'll see your revolution. But not a fucking day before. Apple will win before linux ever does, just for this reason.
I can't find it because of all the marketing fud on google ("buy apple x, get apple bent"), but a while ago there was a story detailing how 60% of laptops sold at U penn were apple.
I say they've already been back in the "main stream" for a while.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
Uh...Apple's is the anti-3rd party OS. It's not fun to develop for. It's not fun to use. And Apple as a company is the anti-consumer. Their customer service leaves a lot to be desired, and they go for style above substance. I understand that it's a Unix-based OS, and I understand that it's pretty, but I don't see Mac OS as being the new geek haven for development or usage.
Apple has seen these numbers before. They're currently on a crest, but they'll sink and rise again. They have an upper limit of around 10-15% market share. They've made it quite clear that they don't *want* any more than that, and aren't interested in meeting the needs of the rest of the market.
If they decoupled their anaemic hardware offerings from their OS, they could see double digit growth yearly, but failing that they'll stay right where they've always been.
Apple is as bad or worse than Microsoft in the Lock-In Department. Apple Adoption is not freeing anyone, they're simply changing masters.
"...and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption?"
Until Linux wireless is brain dead easy, the answer is NO.
Would you expect to be able to use a car with no prior training or practise?
As long as we're throwing around stupid metaphors, someone's got to use cars. :P Work in a standard transmission for bonus points.
so, going up from 8.5% to 10% is considered magical, and changes something ?
apparently i didnt get the memo. my bad.
Read radical news here
Apple has seen these numbers before. They're currently on a crest, but they'll sink and rise again. They have an upper limit of around 10-15% market share. They've made it quite clear that they don't *want* any more than that, and aren't interested in meeting the needs of the rest of the market.
I've got my share of -1 postings from ripping Apple but on this you are off base. I think thi would have been true in 1992 but it is certainly not true today. It's a completely different world out there. Personal computers running Windows have become corporate computing appliances, not personal ones, where Apple has doggedly focused on being a personal computer and is imaginatively building a software, service, and shopping stack designed to build a premium consumer brand.
If they decoupled their anaemic hardware offerings from their OS, they could see double digit growth yearly, but failing that they'll stay right where they've always been.
Apple has double digit growth yearly. Apple stock is kicking total butt right now in a stock market that sucks. I wish I would have bought them a couple of years ago when Jobs first came back... I'd be retired!
Secondly, Apple hardware is hardly anemic. Apple's new PowerMac, for example, is the latest Harperton Xeon and while it might be a tad pricier than the equivalent from the likes of Dell, I guarantee you that the entire service experience, from Apple store to home, is very, very good.
Christ, I'm talking myself into buying a Macintosh... and that's the thing about Apple - you walk into the store, and it reflects the sort of perfection that Americans expect from products.. indeed, Apple has gone beyond even Japanese cars when it comes to the detail of their products...
This is my sig.
And to make your dog sound like a cat? Put it in the freezer for a week and run it across a bandsaw. "Meeeeeooooowwwwwwwwwww"
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
I find it suspicious that Mac adoption has exploded shortly after the release of Bootcamp. I'd like to know what fraction of this 8.5% of Mac users is dual booting to Windows.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I figure the Mac revolution would have happened when OSX was released, or maybe when the iPod was launched. Why should the surge happen today?
This is just spin. If you are talking about individual companies and how many units they sell, okay. So they're third. Yay. But if you are talking about OSX versus Vista/XP, and Apple is at 7-8%, what is the big deal? Those of you with longer memories may recall that Apple once held over 10% of the PC market, but an insistence on high margins and a belief that they were competing directly against IBM itself led to a plummeting market share in the face of half-price PC clones from which Apple has not yet recovered--and it's been 20 years. I was one of the guys who was faced with a decision back then: Do I buy one Apple or two clones? Regardless of a 1% move in rank, Apple remains a niche market. PCs are now an appliance that gives you a portal onto the Internet. Why do you want to spend an extra thousand dollars to do that?
Same rule applies for Linux. If someone could just get out there and market a Linux box successfully, why do you need to pay for Windows? Unfortunately, the disparity is not as great when you can buy a Vista laptop for $500. The $500 number appears to be more of a magic number than 10% because at that price point, people stop analyzing and just buy.
How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
Make application development a breeze. Windows has given away free Visual Studio express editions that can enable developers to program next generation WPF applications for free.
It doesn't run on my Mac or my UNIX boxes. I have to buy Windows to run Visual Studio, like I have to buy OS X to run XCode, and I have to buy Linux... well, OK, I don't have to buy Linux.
XCode comes only if you buy the expensive Mac.
But XCode is included in the cheaper Macs, too, and frankly I don't really WANT to know about the sexual problems of my IDE.
Does this study have a column for computers built by the owner? How many macs have been built by the owner?
Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
Apple's stock price has been buoyed not by it's PC offerings, but by iPods, and that only happened after they decoupled them from their PCs and let non-fanboys buy them.
Apple's hardware selection is certainly anaemic. They have, what, half a dozen models? For the vast majority of the market, their offerings just aren't suitable. A lot more people would be willing to shell out a few hundred dollars for OS X if Apple would be willing to sell it to them for the hardware they do want.
if you have a cat at your home, that means that you have an icanhascheeseburger at home.
Read radical news here
Name one "bad legacy design decision."
I know they exist, but I bet you're just regurgitating what all the Mac fanboys love to puke all over the place and you don't even know what you mean.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
Well once I understood the + button I found it quite nice. Best thing - i think - once learned used everywhere since the + button is consitantly used - well everywhere.
PS. It's not easier to re-install from scratch. It's always easier to fix. Just because you don't know HOW to fix anything doesn't mean it's easier.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
you dont adopt a cat to get your ego pampered like you would get when adopting a dog.
.... well, they are basically as complex as human females.
you adopt a cat because you want some perpetual 5 year old naughty boy in the house doing absurd spontaneous stuff.
or, in the case of female cats, you adopt them to eventually end up having them as either an overprotective mom, an extremely jealous girlfriend, a very complex friend, or
Read radical news here
And this crap. Nobody here actually believes this right? OneStat, XiTi and W3 Counter give OS X a more meager 4%. In fact, only Gartner give Apple 8%, everywhere else I find half of that.
Apple isn't going to boom, not now, not ever if they uphold their image of being the 'trendy' and 'cool' one.
Besides, because they are a company and because of their lock-in policies they are much more easier antagonized by Microsoft or others.
As long as there are slaughterhouses, there will be battlefields.
that was real funny...... NOT.
why the hell would anyone would want to listen to endless yapping and yelping of a goddamn pest anyway ?
saw someone ? bark bark bark bark.
heard something ? bark bark bark fart
a bird flew over ? bark bark bark
happy ? bark bark bark
kicked in the butt ? bark bark bark
shitted yourself ? bark bark fart bark
stupid ? bark bark bark bark
when i see a dog the word pest comes to my mind, instead of pet.
Read radical news here
all it takes to run Windows is to pop in the disk and let it install
This little bit of folklore deserves to die.
1. Got a system restore disk? (Not an OEM-style installer!) Then sure, many minutes later your "my documents" is gone, but you are pretty much back up to day-1 status.
2. Got an OEM installer disk? How many of those disks do not include the drivers for devices like, ohhh your *ethernet* adapter? That is the purest soul-sucking time sink ever.
Apple's installer is pretty great for this reason. I seem to recall it kept my wife's home files intact.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
The point is that the registry is essentially one difficult to edit text file that bloats for the life of your Windows installation. Linux et. al. use application specific text files, each which can be ported, edited, removed, copied, etc. as required.
"Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption?"
Absolutely not.
Some of you may recall that, back in the late 1980s, the Mac's market share was about 18%. For a period of time lasting into the mid-1990s, Apple was the #1 maker of PCs (IBM, Compaq and Dell rounded out the top 4; HP, Packard Bell, Gateway and a few others fought over the scraps).
If you take into consideration the fact that Macs lasted longer than PCs in those days and Mac users tended to buy more software (claims supported by numerous published Gartner studies), you could make a fair argument that Macs represented as much as perhaps a third of the total installed base and of the potential software market.
This was not seen as sufficient. Throughout the entire mid-80s through late-90s, the PC press maintained a steady drum-beat of, "Apple doesn't have enough market share to survive." Of course Apple's not going to make it if the press keeps telling everyone they can't! Combine this with some of Apple's strategic management blunders, and you have a perfect recipe for also-ran status.
Not that any of this is necessary to ensure Windows' continued market dominance. Most businesses are going to use what other businesses in their industry use. Most people are going to buy for home use what they are comfortable with at work. Windows' prevalence is its own best selling feature. This is why Microsoft enjoys a "natural monopoly", and why it will take a bigger disruptive market force than anything we've seen so far in the past 20+ years to change it.
Apple manufactures PCs now? Damn, their ads seem to say otherwise.
I think you have to be a little insane to use some Apple hardware. Does anyone remember the puck mice? The ultra-flat desktop keyboards they're selling now are almost as bad. The earbuds that come with iPods are all universally crappy, both in build and sound quality. It's bizarre that, with Jobs exerting such obsessive compulsive control over Apple's output, crap products like these somehow slip through the cracks. It's almost like Jobs is schizoid.
Then again, if Apple just isn't good at designing certain things, what are they supposed to do? Start selling updated IBM Model-M keyboards with their high-end desktops? Grado's with the iPods? Paint microsoft mice white!!? It's almost unimaginable, and I see that as a problem.
This is my main beef with Apple. They're too image conscious. Admittedly, some of their user-base just wants to be fashionable, but is being fashionable really a long-term plan for success? Given how much of an asshole he is, sooner or later Jobs is going to become "uncool". Increased market share and, hence, lessened uniqueness isn't going to help. Normal people will use uncool hardware if it's *good*. This is a lesson I feel Apple needs to learn.
Why is 10% "magic"? This number is significant because that's how many fingers we have?
Because it has reached double digit
Yes, going from 9% to 10% may only be a 1% increase in market share, but it's a 100% increase in the number of digits the market share number has!
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
.
Top Operating System Share Trend
August 07 - June 08
Windows Vista 16%
Up 10%
The MacIntel 5%.
Up 2%
The Mac 3%
Unchanged.
Linux 0.8%.
Up 0.3%
In these stats, adoption of Vista appears to be accelerating and the Mac stagnating as we head into late summer.
MacIntel is where the action is for OSX and the MacIntel has BootCamp.
Desktop Linux draws flies.
Top Operating System Share Trend
Windows 91% - All Versions
Down 2%
The Mac and the MacIntel 8%
Up 2%
Apple sells an upscale urban life-style. Microsoft solid middle class value.
Apple has the boutique in Manhattan. Microsoft the big-box retailer in every township populous enough to rate a single traffic light.
Long term and with the economy in recession, who do you think holds the stronger cards?
Their "shitty business decisions" as you put it, currently have them placed as the 12th largest company in the US with a market cap of over $152 billion, right behind Google and IBM. As far as marketshare goes, there are steps that they could take to pull closer to Microsoft in terms of OS adoption, but in terms of profitability, they're doing just fine.
I don't understand the insistence on this idea that Apple is all hype. You could've made a reasonable argument maybe back in 2002-2003 when the iPod was really starting to tear up the market. But now it's 2008 and the iPod is still the best selling music player by a mile. Fads don't last for seven years, especially not ones related to technology.
I won't argue that Apple doesn't have very slick and effective marketing, but brand will only get you so far. People are fickle. Everyone's got an iPod now, it doesn't make you special or cool anymore. Yet they're still having no problem selling them.
Even with the iPhone it's become pretty clear that there's more to it than just "the cool factor". Why else would people be so excited about a new version that looks almost exactly the same as the old version, and costs less? There's some real value there for many people, and they're willing to pay for it.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
...and at this juncture some of the best Windows computers are Macs. You heard me right. They also make some of the best Linux computers. Now that MacIntel is the standard architecture for Macintosh, some people are actually running Windows or Linux on them. The reason why they do it? It's because quality control at the major PC manufacturers is down in the dumpster. If you want something that's built as good on the PC side, you have to go with boutique manufacturers like VoodooPC or Alienware, and even those are questionable because VoodooPC is now owned by HP and Alienware is owned by Dell. Since Lenovo took over the ThinkPad and ThinkCentre lines from IBM, quality has gone down the crapper quicker than you can say "ni hao."
Of course, part of the experience of Macs includes Mac OS X. And the folks who buy Macs only to put Windows or Linux on them are kind of unclear on the concept, in my not so humble opinion. Mac OS X is right now the best Unix or Unix-like operating system on the desktop. Now that Leopard is at 10.5.4 it is just plain awesome and just plain works. 10.5.2 was good for me too and so was 10.5.3, but I had no occasion to use 802.11n connectivity and I know that broke with 10.5.2. With 10.5.4 even those with 802.11n wireless access points are happy.
Still, if it means more people with Macs regardless of what OS they run, that's fine by me. More Macs sold equals more visibility for Mac. Everyone assumes that Macs run Mac OS X so the bigger the market share the more likely people will consider Mac users as more than fringies.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
that give a body a lot to think about. -Tahaer Benourad
You can complain about Apple if you want, but at least get the facts straight. Apple has not only utilized open source thoroughly at the core of its OS; it has also given back to the open source community. And if you really want to be anal about open source you can forego the OSX UI and install darwin on its own, and use only free software on your shiny Mac box. It may not be Debian, but it's certainly not "more protective of its source" than Microsoft.
Please turn in your geek card. First, there is a huge number of free utilities for OS X itself. Next, try looking through the huge store of UNIX software. Between them, there is a massive store of free software.
Now, as to you inability or unwillingness to compensate someone for writing a piece of code to get a job done different or better, wellâ¦to each their own.
"Open terminal"
Hoop.
"sudo pico /etc/hosts"
Hoop.
"How is that jumping through hoops???"
Because "jumping through hoops" is a colloquialism meaning "more difficult than necessary".
"You must be doing it wrong...."
You must be a prototypical mac fanboy."
I guess the truth hurts, huh mods? God forbid someone express an opinion that you mactards have no answer for, you just mod them into oblivion so no one will see it, just like your favorite company does any time there's criticism on the mac forums.
XCode has come with OS X since Tiger. It does not require the purchase of any particular Apple model. Before then it was available but not bundled. XCode is not installed by default as some users may not want to install it. Installing it requires the user to insert the OS X disc and double click on the relevant dmg image.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
I would argue that this is largely the result of Apple filling a vacuum created by Microsoft's recent botchfest on the Windows franchise. No doubt *nix is and will continue to reign supreme on the server-side, but *nix's usability issues coupled with the declining popularity of Windows is resulting in more and more people taking a serious look at Apple's MacOS platform.
It is actually quite amazing how tables really have turned for Apple. The initial release of Mac OS X (which was light-years beyond OS 9.x) alone certainty *started* the trend, but Microsoft's latest blunders is clearly resulting an increase of Apple's dominance. What Apple needs now is to find a way to ride the new trend towards applications-as-services (Sorry Microsoft, but Windows Live just doesn't cut it).
This won't win points for being useful or insightful commentary, but my experience is that if you use your computer for more than typing word documents and surfing the web, you'll run into problems sooner or later. Computers are hard to use, period. And I say this as an engineer and scientist, not a computing neophyte.
Maybe it is an confusing GUI, or a required preference tweak that you shouldn't need to even know about. Maybe it is an incompatibility with a piece of harware or software whose vendors claim should 'just work.' Maybe it is a poorly written or patronizing but useless 'help' feature. All computers show some type of computing evil sooner or later.
Thanks to hard work by a lot of people, I think Windows and the Mac OS are 'equally decent for most tasks'. But let's not pretend either is 'easy to use' or 'good'.
I'm a bit confused why people think the majority of Apple users aren't just normal people who are fed up with windows not working. I for one don't own any Apple hardware just now except an iPhone 3G and a couple iPods, but the main reason I want to get more apple hardware is because of ease of functionality with those existing items and also because I like the OS X Leopard Operating System. Nothing to do with the 'brand' or 'image' that supposedly surrounds Apple. All I know them for is for making shit hot products that 'just work'. I think anyone who slags off people for being 'brand whores' or whatever are just jealous because they can't afford Apple's higher prices for their superior products. ...oh my god I sound like such a fanboy! :-(
I don't understand the insistence on this idea that Apple is all hype. You could've made a reasonable argument maybe back in 2002-2003 when the iPod was really starting to tear up the market. But now it's 2008 and the iPod is still the best selling music player by a mile. Fads don't last for seven years, especially not ones related to technology.
we dont say its all hype. we say its mostly hype. when it comes to ipod, you have to reckon that in a wide array of products, there will eventually be 1 or 2 actually competitive products every once in a while. still, success of ipod has been reinforced with the loyalty and zealotry of fans, this noone can deny. there had been similar products in the market, but none of them were as hyped as ipod or had a huge name doing pr campaigns.
I won't argue that Apple doesn't have very slick and effective marketing, but brand will only get you so far. People are fickle. Everyone's got an iPod now, it doesn't make you special or cool anymore. Yet they're still having no problem selling them.
well, from what i see around, their loyalty is commendable. even if a bit foolish at times. and again you are dwelling mainly on ipod.
Even with the iPhone it's become pretty clear that there's more to it than just "the cool factor". Why else would people be so excited about a new version that looks almost exactly the same as the old version, and costs less?
oh boy. there were very functional top end stuff sold on cellular scene for years now. at times, like the nokia communicator, some didnt have any meaningful competition to compete with them even, yet, they were not sold like iphone, or hyped that much. yet we see people lining for days or weeks to get an iphone.
excuse me, i can only tie this to cool factor.
Read radical news here
Ok... My wife needed a new computer. She wanted a "pretty" one. She wanted the iMac 20" aluminum. I showed her the basics of its use (several times over). After about a day of complaining that she did not understand how to use it because it was too different, I was forced to load Windows Vista on it for her. Oh well... She no longer complains about not knowing how to use it, just that it breaks a lot.
This is good news for Apple and all, but windows will not be going away. I'd like to see figures for how many Mac users out there have a copy of Win XP or Vista installed on their system via vmware, or bootcamp? Windows still has its uses, and there are those "critical" software packages that you just have to have that need to run it. It'll make Windows seem like that annoying party guest that just won't go away after everyone else has left at 4 am,...
you are comparing an entire outfit (Mac, hardware, software, tech support included) to an operating system, Windows.
your example and therefore point does not hold.
pc users get to choose their hardware (very often), if they dont choose their hardware they choose their os, if they dont choose their os they choose the programs they run. not only there are less programs for mac platform, thereby making it easier (hence major programs are not too varied compared to windows/linux pc) to run but also easier to provide support for. pc with win or linux has humongous number and variety of software, hardware used with them, and getting tech support is also harder in correlation. therefore, yes, pc/win/linux users ARE much more proficient with computers than apple users, because they HAVE to be.
if Mac had been that functional, effective as you apple users purport it to be, there would be many govt. agencies, small businesses, schools and whatnot using macs in abundance. yet wherever we see mac, they are being used in graphics design, and it has become so much of a tradition, to the point of zealotry especially with publishers, designers and so on. yet we see pcs with windows and linux everywhere, despite they are 'less user friendly' as you purport them to be. apparently these outfits are doing something right.
maybe it is the fact that the major software that is used with apple generally happens to be desktop publishing and design stuff, and they are software IN their own right, that require their own proficiency apart from the mac interface, and apparently the serious applications that pcs are used for obviously need more functionality than 'shuffling your mp3s', 'loading music to your ipod', 'arranging your photo album', or browsing the net.
im not even talking about i.t. world. apple doesnt have a place in anything related to web serving, datacenters, programming and whatnot.
Read radical news here
I tie it to people's experience with the iPod and OSX. People got excited about the iPhone because they liked their iPods. They figured that since Apple figured out how to make one really nice consumer device that they really enjoyed, they'd probably do a good job on a phone as well. The iPhone isn't a perfect device, and it certainly wouldn't make an acceptable phone replacement for everyone, but it's a pretty damn good phone, and it does a number of things better than any other phones out there.
Some people have a hard time accepting that there are companies out there who can design a product for a market new to them and on their first try get things right that the traditional companies still haven't figured out. Apple's turned out to be pretty good at that. Trying to dismiss it just as a product of hype and "cool factor" is silly.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
In Apple's defense, the iPhone 3G does have Exchange Mail support now. Apparently, you missed the all the news regarding the launch last friday,...
Vista doesn't have good publicity (and the reasons behind that are a completely different discussion). Surely that is driving some folks to try a Mac instead?
Onwards & Upwards!
you still dont get it. apple went into very hard times prior to ipod, and it still held itself out. due to what ? i cant think of any reason than zealot fanboys. one of them, who is a top paid designer in my country, is my friend, i know from his example. preaching like a zealot with little basis.
also you know that there are many companies which put out not only decent, but occasionally top notch products. yet, we do not see the hype that goes around iphone, for example, which is in your words not a perfect device, not an acceptable phone replacement for everyone, and it does a number of things better than any other phones out there - which is basically just another o.k. product.
but a global stampede has been going on about it for a long time now. why ?
Read radical news here
you never go back... It's the black hole of computers and I've lost a few friends there.
Anywhile, if any1 had bothered to RTFA, this isn't about MAC OS or LINUX or WINDOWS...IT'S ABOUT COMPUTER MANUFACTURERS...M$ doesn't even rank, YOU DUMB DORKS....
The number 1 spot is taken by a company that sells LINUX computers...GUESS WHO????...I'll give you a small hint: HE'S AS BIG AN ASS AS STEVIE OR BILL...
Apple sells crap for twice as much as it is worth and people buy it. It's amazing that they survived but there's a sucker born every minute.
and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption? Hard to tell, but it's good to see that normal people (not just us geeks) are choosing to go with a different OS, rather than staying with the headache-inducing Windows.
WTF does buying a Mac have to do with Linux adoption? I have 3 PCs and 3 Macs, so I cannot say I am an Apple or a PC fanboy. I run OSX, Windows XP, Vista, and Linux. So, I am not biased in any way.
That being said, I cannot think of anyone I know who has a Mac because they want "a diffrent OS". In fact, many of the Mac users I know who have Intel Macs are running BootCamp or Parallels or VMWare so that they can run Windows Apps.
No, people buy Macs because of witty advertising, the "cool" factor, ease of use, and tend to be more friendly when doing graphic and video editing. Go up to your average Mac user, and ask them if they are willing to try out Linux, and see what kind of response you get.
The connections that some people make! Price of oil fell $10 a barrel yesterday because demand went down. Maybe I could say that I sure am glad that more people are driving Hydrogen powered cars and are sticking it to the oil companies.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
"Security researchers today disclosed a vulnerability in the Geek Card issuing agency, which allows the hacker to issue themselves a geek card. Because this is Thursday, it will not be patched for some time."
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
If it's a matter of wanting OS X and seeing a two-for-one deal on OS X and Windows, then that really lowers the "but I have this package that only runs on Windows" barrier.
I'd say people who just want Windows wouldn't buy a Mac, because they can get that elsewhere. People who'd like to have both are more likely now to buy a higher-end Mac instead of skimping on a Mac and buying a separate Windows PC as well.
I was thinking 13% since that was where Mac market share peaked in 1993. There's something about breaking records that gets everyone's attention.
Not true at all. Take LCD panels of CoreDuo iMacs alone falling en masse these days, once slightly past warranty. Search for "vertical lines", if interested.
Servant of karma
Then it's share would really go up.
We got to know a lot about Apple's quality control process when they shipped iPods with viruses in them.
Imagine how far they could go if their commander in chief allowed them to use the two button mouse!
forgot it: warranty means 12 months. Anybody seen shorter in the field?
Servant of karma
I actually like INI files (reminds me of Linux, UNIX, etc.) during Windows 3.x days. Easier to manage! Registry sucks!
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
As companies begin to realise that there is no longer one-single-solution, the pandoras box will be open for the OS to be something that requires thought.
It's not a far stretch to advertise unix-like OSs when the mac is running a unix OS.
Unfortunately no one outside of /. cares about linux.
I'll see my office embrace an OS X server for all it's OS X based Marketing/Graphics Users before I see Linux anywhere near this place, let alone replacing the sale and IT's Window boxes.
Ave Molech Setting
It makes sense that more people will use non-Windows operating systems as operating systems become more irrelevant. Nowadays the computer is the web browser.
My Freakin Blog
Older Macs that are no longer supported by Apple software updates are (for now anyway) still supported by some Linux distros.
Well, until the Mac mini came out my primary desktop was a "beige G4"... a G3 upgraded with a cheap G4/533 card, 768M of RAM, a Radeon 9200 video card, IDE controller, 10/100 ethernet... if you have a newer Mac and no other use for the old one I suppose that's a reasonable use for it, but I wasn't talking about that situation, I was talking about Apple's market share and what you buy the Mac to run.
just received unit back from warranty repair (by luck, it had sufficient display lifetime before me getting in; then - nobody speaks real problem, so it might tend to reoccur real soon now) - very confident, actually.
Leaving profit for your sweet sake, dear.
Servant of karma
Why not do something like mkisofs and turn her 2k/XP/vista image into an iso, and run it in VirtualBox 1.5.6?
If she munges it, then recover her from an ISO, not windoze's own recovery. Be sure to write he home files to a mapped Linux partition unless VB complains that it can't do networked file systems.
What pisses me off, tho is that even in vista, if I yank the power (kill the process or kill VB) via one of the menu commands to do so, vista tends to slam and overlap all the icons to the equivalent of 640x480. Why the hell does it DO that? Why can't msoft do snapshots and then upon reopening the profile do a sanity check that detects insanely-overlapped icons and restores them to a previous, sane level/layout?
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
You are absolutely right. I worked for HP for quite some time, and believe me - the commodity hardware that $500 HP computer is built with is dirt compared to what Apple uses.
Think about it. HP sells a consumer laptop for $500 that includes all the bells and whistles, a webcam, shiny media buttons, etc. etc. Then they sell a business end laptop for 3x as much that is slower and has less features. Do you think there is a reason for this?
Consumer laptops are made with the absolute cheapest parts HP can source THAT DAY. Two laptops sitting next to each other on the shelf at the store can have different parts but look exactly the same. The quality control in this situation is, understandably, not good.
Business machines are the same in an entire series. They use good, proven hardware, and every single machine uses the same stuff. That way you can flash the same OS image onto all of them without problems. You can't do that with the consumer stuff.
So when people compare Apple to HP or other manufacturers, keep in mind that it's the business class machines that you should be looking at. Apple doesn't use commodity hardware - they use the same piece in every unit in a series, and they use parts that are high quality and proven to work well.
This is why people think Apple is expensive, when it's actually quite competitive.
or else!
No, I'm quite happy about Exchange support -- it sucks having users demand you support IMAP so they can use their iPhones for email. My main point is they make poor business decisions, eventually they catch up but it usually takes time for them to come around. What about M4P files? You really think that'll last?
Not true at all: Apple is outsourcing as much, as it could - as does everybody these days (bless you to resist, boutique people).
It is time of WARNING, not of SLEEP, that has begun for Apple. Success is always way more demanding.
Servant of karma
"normal people (not just us geeks) are choosing to go with a different OS, rather than staying with the headache-inducing Windows."
What's really interesting is the demographics of the people who buy Apple computers. You think it would be young people. Not now Apple costomers tend to be much older and much better educated then the average PC buyer. Turns out if you are a 40+ year old professional with a graduate level education you are a prime demographic for Apple's Mac. These people tend to NOT be geeks of "on the fringe" Certainly these people are as full on mainstream as it gets. (and there have the money to buy what they like.)
we dont say its all hype. we say its mostly hype. when it comes to ipod, you have to reckon that in a wide array of products, there will eventually be 1 or 2 actually competitive products every once in a while. still, success of ipod has been reinforced with the loyalty and zealotry of fans, this noone can deny. there had been similar products in the market, but none of them were as hyped as ipod or had a huge name doing pr campaigns.
The hype is all in your head. OK, the iPod is propped up solely by a few zealots buying them hand over fist, or are there THAT many zealots?
There have been similar products, and not one of them works better than an iPod + iTunes.
Now, without the horrible punctuation, please explain why you think you're hearing mostly hype about Apple, and why you're sure you have a firm grip on reality.
I hated it at first. But now I kind of like it. You can type pretty fast with it since the key travel is ultra short.
You do have to be pretty precise though. It's a great touch typing learning keyboard.
As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption? No, not until the apple is replaced by tux or OSI, and a help file on why there's a short stupid fat penguin logo and what it means and its history and nix and OSS yadda yadda is made available on the otherwise beautiful desktop.
Linux, OS X, and OpenSolaris are a continuation of normality. Windows has been a painfully long battle with a brain-rotting disease.
You do understand that just because Dell owns Alienware and HP owns VoodooPC doesn't mean they necessarily changed, or control, their design and production process, right? The point of a business merger like those is to get the parent company into the niche the bought company ocupied and to SHARE beneficial technologies (like Dell's purchasing power to lower Alienware's cost of parts). It would be a complete waste of money if we had bought Alienware and then just decided to make them Dell's with an Alienware exterior. We learn from them, improve our XPS systems and maintain their brand by allowing them to continue producing high level products and make even more money by paying less for the parts through our suppliers. /Dell Ops Manager
Most of the problems with registry bloat isn't a problem with the OS, it's poorly written apps not uninstalling itself completely. If Linux or Apple had the huge volume of apps that Windows has, I'm sure there would be more problems for them as well. It's the same story with spyware, virus and other infections, if these other OS were even marginally acceptable to the average user, they would attract some attention from the idiots who like to screw things up, and then they would have the same problems. Also, if you are going to mess with your OS, you should know how to fix it, or leave it alone and it will work just fine.
See, I haven't used Windows myself for at least five years now, and yet it still gives me headaches. Disregarding headaches caused by peoples' dysfunctional Windows PCs that I have to fix every now and then, the greatest source of headaches is that people disregard that there are other systems. Such as hardware manufacturers, web designers, people sending you MSO files and assume you can read them, and so on. I don't think I have to create a complete list for you to get the picture.
Therefore, Apple climbing ever higher on the usage charts is occasion to celebrate indeed. Any dent that can be made to the monoculture is a good dent.
1. There is a way to apply view settings to all folders in Finder. In view options choose "Use as defaults"
2. Mac comes with 4 button mouse with scroll wheel. It's a simple preference change to enable the right click button. Or you can even use a Microsoft mouse with your Mac (I did for a while).
3, Yes file transfer during upgrade works though firewire only. But you can actually manually copy your user folder and applications from another machine through the network. I do it all the time.
So, all your problems are non issues. Perhaps you need a good book on OS X. I'd recommend "OS X Leopard: The missing manual".
As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
.
Historically - it is the upscale seller who finds himself among the walking wounded - if not a specter at the feast.
The Ford V8 lives - the Dusenberg dies.
1 - Registry bloat. No other OS keeps app settings and preferences in what really amounts of a gigantic text file. Many apps do NOT remove registry entries correctly (or fully) when uninstalled. Inevitably this file will bloat, bloat, bloat, bloat until it takes forever just to get anything out of it.
Wow, you think that a few DWORDS in a registry are going to slow down your computer? I always wondered who buys those snake-oil "registry cleaners". Now I know.
If your Windows box is slowing down, it is because of processes running (malware, random software you installed and forgot about, etc) that are consuming CPU or memory. Or it is because of disk fragmentation. Registry plays an absolutely negligible role.
Also, in all my years of running Windows and fiddling with almost everything imaginable on it, I have never corrupted the registry. Occasionally I can't figure out why for example, a file association won't stick, so I'm with you in part that it doesn't work perfectly, because it can be hard to troubleshoot. And I would much rather use Find/Replace on a text file.
But to have a bullet point that is "registry bloat" is horribly naive. Ever use a database that scales? They are typically one big file, or a set of them, with lots of little pieces of information thrown in. Do they scale and work after they become "bloated"? Of course.
Registry bloat? Talk about handing in your geek card.
Probably heat related. Most of the recent Macs seem to run really warm, which is likely because Apple wants to make them as thin as possible while skimping on the cooling to keep them quiet. I predict that a lot of the new iMacs/Macbooks/Macbook Pros aren't really going to last more than a couple years because of this, unless they aren't powered on much.
The $150 million was not a bail out as you've put it. It was a settlement for a win-win for both companies. MS had "accidentally" used source code from QT in Windows Media Player and was being sued by Apple. But they had the Office for Mac card to play. So rather than being destructive, both sides traded. 5 years shared tech between both companies, IE on Macs as default browser, $150 million invested in AAPL and Office 98 for Mac. That $150 million investment in AAPL in 1997 served up profit when MS sold it around 2004. A large profit was made for MS. Had they held it and sold on last business day of December 2007â¦
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/592FE887-5CA1-4F30-BD62-407362B533B9.html
I guess "Don't ask, don't tell" is the official Apple policy.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
I'm pretty sure you've got to have a PC to run Visual Studio Express, and that PC has to have a copy of Windows on it. Your cost to develop WPF apps is a PC and Windows.
Just like your cost to develop OS X apps is a Mac (OS X is included).
In both cases, the tools themselves are free but you've got to have the right platform to run them.
Hell, even Linux has to be installed on something so that you can use the free OS and all the free tools.
It's no more expensive to develop for OS X than for Windows or Linux.
Will Apple learn from its own history? That seems unlikely. When will business practices end up gutting the company again? They already have problems. They have been great at releasing some products that appear cutting edge, and they do a great job marketing them. Eventually their attitude on product use has always sucked. Their "Do it our way or leave" attitude towards consumers ends up driving them away to products that do everything theirs does, only better, cheaper, and with more options. I mean, who is still buying Ipods?
Open Source: Eroding the Digital Divide
I was not aware of the long leash Dell and HP are giving their respective boutique gamer divisions. I suppose that's also the reason why neither Voodoo nor Alienware mentions the mergers on their websites...in fact, I was actually expecting to be diverted to an HP or a Dell web page, respectively, when I went to their sites before writing the initial post. The plot thickens.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Well, for people who need all the scripting, and UNIX stuff you would except with a working desktop YES.
It is not a Linux adoption, but a UnIX adoption/alternative. I work in a fully Windows environment on OSX (my direct boss who is also a tech is the only MAC user around). 800+ sites on windows, 500+ call center.
When you want to get the job done you need a real terminal with bash and all the goodies and vi. All that on a working desktop, and there is no 4 hours off trying to see why X does not start on the new nvidia binary (crap) linux driver.
No I am not a mac freak... I just need a unix machine with a stable working desktop, and still ove linux on my 'other" company's servers.
Cheers
Dell: OK Alienware dudes, love your work, but the parts you use are way too expensive. It would be great if you starterd ordering your parts off this supplier catalog here, in order to take advantage of Dells enormous buying power
Alienware: Ummm, but our expensive parts are what sets us apart from all the rest?
Dell: Oh, don't worry, the parts from Chinhowan Golden Monkey Electronics Funtime Co are manufactured to the highest standards possible I assure you, otherwise we at Dell wouldn't be using them! You're not suggesting that Dell uses inferior quality parts now are you?
Alienware: Ummmm, I gues not, no. :-)
"You can't fight in here, this is the war room!"
And since when have Apple users been considered "normal" around here?
Since Apple users are also UNIX users, and UNIX users are core to SLashdot... we are not on a vector at all. We are where the vector departs from.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I am not sure why you got modded as a troll. My thoughts are exactly in line with your own; Linux does take considerable time to get working with all the diverse hardware one is likely to own. In fact, you will never succeed in getting many printers to operate.
I think Linux is great, a real interesting thing to tinker with. Yet, Windows takes far LESS than 2-4 hours to install and you are assured everything will work. Some of the Linux zealots need to go easy on the Kool-aid and be realistic: OSX and Linux do not need to worry about the incredibly diverse hardware situations a Windows installation has to contend with.
Some of us actually take far more time for a Linux install, especially if you compile your own kernel. Hell, my installation is in a perpetual state of tweaking and enhancement, it is never complete.
-- Posted from my parent's basement
On a Compaq Presario V5201US.
(2GHz, 2Gb RAM, 128Mb shared VRAM, Intel chipset, WiFi, ExpressCard 34/54, USB2.0)
Starting at around 0800Hrs Saturday morning.
From booting from the DVD, formatting the 40Gig HD, ejecting the DVD & rebooting to a usable desktop took just under 30 minutes.
Downloading all the updates (still using 7.04, but everything else is current) took longer (1h45m) but that was STILL less than Windows XP SP1 trying to pull down & apply SP2.
Configuring FF (importing bookmarks, setting up the GUI like I like it, etc), Thunderbird (importing the address book, configuring the GUI, etc), Pigdin (importing all my contacts, fiddling with the GUI, etc), and making sure OOo was configured the way I prefer it to be, took less than 15 minutes.
Finished around 1115Hrs Saturday.
So in under three hours I had a secure, working system with Ubuntu.
That includes the video, WiFi, and Intel chipset support.
This was after having spent two DAYS installing XP to the same system, using a different HD.
Started Thursday of last week, around noon.
It took nearly 3 hours to format the fresh-from-the-shrink-wrap 40 Gig HD.
(Finished around 1445-1450Hrs.)
It took nearly 2 hours to copy all the files from the cd to the HD, reboot, & finally tell me I could eject the disk.
(Finished around 16:45Hrs.)
Applying all the drivers (video, WiFi, Chipset, Audio, etc) from CD that I had compiled & burned earlier for just this purpose.
(17:30Hrs)
It took another hour to apply SP1, reboot, SP2, reboot, SP3, & reboot again.
On a bare installation of XP (no other programs installed).
(18:50Hrs)
Installing Office XP, Antivirus, Firewall, Firefox, Thunderbird, & Spybot (all from a cd) took another hour (including the required reboots).
(1945Hrs)
THEN I attached it to the network & pointed it at the Windows update site. /FOURTEEN HOURS/ downloading all the updates to the bits that MS determined were "out of date", rebooting multiple times, continuing to download more updates, rebooting, etc until it finally told me that it was completely patched.
It spent the next
It finished just before 0900Hrs Friday morning.
So, granted this is only my experience, but an "old" copy of Ubuntu managed to nuke a drive, copy itself over, find the proper drivers, install said drivers, update itself from the main Repo, & hand me a usable computer in less than 3 hours.
Windows XP took two DAYS to get to that same point, and it took an EXPONENTIAL more amount of hand-holding, preparation, & work to get it there.
How did you manage to get Windows to be functional in under an hour?
I think you missed the point. Do you think the guys that supply 256mb nvidia cards don't also supply the 1gb cards?
Cheap $500 computer finally breaks down about the time you were wishing you could upgrade to a much newer, faster machine. Perfect timing, perfect excuse to upgrade ("Darn it! I just have to buy a brand new *fast* box...", he says with mock bitterness)
Expensive over-engineered Mac runs and runs for years after its technology has become so out-of-date that museums begin phoning you to see if you would donate your Mac as an example of ancient hardware. Every time you ask for an upgrade, your boss says "What's wrong? It still works, doesn't it?"
See, I prefer the cheap and nasty PC that costs a third of the price, lasts a third of the time, and gives up around the time I want a newer PC. I don't need to pay for a machine to keep going long past its prime. I want a PC that will last 3 years, not a cathedral that will last 3 centuries.
When the technology changes as fast as PC tech does, built-in obsolescence - cheap throwaways - aren't such a stupid idea. For the same price as a Mac I will have a newer, faster PC most of the time. And tech prices keep coming down.
Buy cheap, buy short-term, as it will always be cheaper and faster tomorrow.
I am anarch of all I survey.
They are not overpriced. Price a laptop with: Core Duo, DVI output, Firewire, decent battery life. You won't save a lot compared to a MacBook. Sure, there is lower-end hardware on the Windows side, but that's great until you try to run Windows on it. Linux is a solution, except that it does NOT replace a Mac laptop -- a Mac laptop is a true desktop replacement and can drive a 24" screen without problems; with linux is a pain in the **** to switch screen resolutions (or at least it was up to the time that I moved to Macs a couple of years ago).
So in under three hours I had a secure, working system with Ubuntu.
That includes the video, WiFi, and Intel chipset support.
Well, with my existing hardware, I could probably do that too. I already found the solutions to all my driver issues (except my printer which I have yet to get working properly under Linux), and that's usually the hard part. If you're fortunate enough to not have any weird driver issues, or if you've seen them (and solved them) before, it's not really a problem.
How did you manage to get Windows to be functional in under an hour?
Just a simple misunderstanding here. I get the drivers, not the whole OS, working in under an hour. That's after having already installed the OS, but before doing most of my tweaking and software installation.
The only thing I know is that I don't know anything; and I'm not even sure about that.
Well, it was primarily a joke, hence the smiley. but there is more to an alienware PC than a shitload of graphics RAM
"You can't fight in here, this is the war room!"
Strange, my Wife stopped complaining after half an hour. Before she was slightly about a non main stream OS. But that is not an issue any more.
Martin
Well, no boot camp on hour two Mac system. If there is anything needs Windows then we use vmware fusion. To put things in perspective: AFAIK My Wife did not start fusion for about 3 weeks. And I last started fusion a week ago for the IKEA room planer.
I think the rise of MacOS has more to do with the Intel CPU and the psychological advantage that you can run windows if you really need to.
Martin
On your co-workers MackBookPro you can press Fn+Backspace to get delete. On a full keyboard you press the delete key.
The interactive way to Go -- http://www.playgo.to/iwtg/en/
Or something else: in that "vertical lines" issue unresting is some pattern of failure repeating soon even if LCD panel just replaced.
Too bad, AppleCare does not even exist in my part of planet, thefore even more depends on position of manufacturer towards such manufacturing defect. Which was simply missing, so far.
Servant of karma
Pardon me, but you sound like some Ikea shoppers I know. I've occasionally thought of forcing them to camp out on a garbage dump for a week.
If you RTFA then you will see that the percentages stated are for US sales only and the 3rd place is only from one set of figures. The other set places Apple 4th in the US after Acer.
Looking at worldwide figures they don't even make the top 5. Everytime someone trots out one of these "Apple market share exploding" articles it is always based on highly misleading data. For example the recent article claiming that Apple has 66% of the over $1000 computer market ignoring the fact that the 66% only takes into account retail sales and only in the US.
Looking around most high street stores you would be hard pressed to buy a machine that cost more than $1000 and wasn't made by Apple. This isn't because they dominate the market but because they only offer high-price options and sell a disproptionately large amount through bricks and mortar stores opposed to online.
Removing the 'over $1000' filter brings that down to 14% and that is still only including US retail sales.
I am not trying to imply that they aren't doing well or that their market share isn't growing, but haven't we had enough of these flamebait articles with misleading summaries based on incomplete figures?
Of course, part of the experience of Macs includes Mac OS X.
Personally, I don't care much for the "experience" of using a system.
Make it work. Make it reliable. Make it run my applications without getting in my way with fancy eyecandy.
The hardware is simply something to put the OS on top of.
The OS is simply something to put my applications on top of.
The applications is simply tools which is used to achieve the goal of using the system in the first place.
Systems should be designed with that in mind.
IMHO, of course. =)
/.Mattsson - My native language is not English, so please don't whine over linguistic errors. (That's lame anyway...)
Or, you can build a high quality $500 PC by yourself. =)
With a Apple system, you pay a lot for the brand and the case itself. Both of them are irrelevant for the quality and reliability of the computer.
High quality MB, RAM and PSU are the most important aspects.
/.Mattsson - My native language is not English, so please don't whine over linguistic errors. (That's lame anyway...)
this should take 30 minutes at most. Your hardrive should be malfunctioning.
again 30 minutes at most. Usually takes 15 minutes. Were you using a 1X CD-ROM? oO
About the updates just download an offline version of SP2 (or SP3), burn it to a CD and that's it. You keep forgetting that Xp is a lot older than Ubuntu 8.10. If you had to update/upgrade a Linux Version from the time XP original was released you would also take a lot of time downloading and applying updates.
and at this juncture some of the best Windows computers are Macs. You heard me right. They also make some of the best Linux computers. Now that MacIntel is the standard architecture for Macintosh, some people are actually running Windows or Linux on them.
I find it amusing that "Macs" have become good or popular only by switching to Intel, using standard architecture rather than traditional Mac architecture, and running Windows or Linux ;)
Still, if it means more people with Macs regardless of what OS they run, that's fine by me.
But why does this matter, if you end up changing the definition of a "Mac" in the process? It becomes nothing more than a trademark. Is there some kind of competition where you win if more machines with a "Mac" sticker are sold? If standard PCs running Windows are labelled Macs, that doesn't increase the number of OS X users, or the number of PowerMac users, or the number of classic Mac users.
Of course it matters to Apple - they make money whatever machines they can sell with a "Mac" label on it. But it doesn't make sense to me that people running a Windows PC with a "Mac" sticker changes anything for people running a Mac when it's a different platform.
> and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption?
What does that have to do with anything? Why is this question even being asked?
The answer is 'no', obviously. Several reasons. First off, nobody uses Linux on the desktop. Last time I saw the number it was hovering around 1.3%. Neck and neck with Windows 98. Second, the entire user interface philosophy between Macs and Linux are completely opposite. Apple strives for clean interfaces, consistency, and just enough features to make 95% of us happy. Linux doesn't have a cohesive strategy for it's UI. Some of it is decent, but the bulk of it is a mess. Average folks still cannot use Linux.
At least, these days, there's a growing realization of the problem within the Linux community. Distros like Ubuntu are doing they're part to make things better. But there is still a long, long, LONG ways to go before Linux catches up with Windows in terms of usability. And even farther to go to catch up to Apple.
The notion that Linux will benefit from Apple's rise in market share is fiction. Won't happen.
whj
it's easier to reinstall from scratch than fix anything but the simplest of OS problems
The biggest Windows fans on the planet have no defense against this major flaw.
You're still missing the point. Just because I use a graphics card as an example doesn't mean the same rule can't hold true for other components. They still build their own systems, it's not like Dell suddenly took full control of their manufacturing process.
everyone made Beowulf clusters out of these things...
Randy.Flood@RHCE2B.COM
That is because your cheapo PC can't run the newest Windows anymore when it's 3 years old while my G3 first generation iMac had little problems with OS 10.3 when it was 6 years old.
-- Cheers!
Interesting viewpoint.
As a gamer, I was caught in that never-ending upgrade cycle too. Then I decided to look at things differently.
I started by building my own game system. I picked the parts, and furthermore, I made sure I could upgrade the thing if needed. That machine is still in my network - and has gone through several upgrades over the years - much less costly than buying a new PC from scratch.
Secondly, I decided to replace all the workstations in my house (Windows and Linux) with Apple - exactly because they will last seemingly forever. I expect to recoup the costs I spent up front by not having to upgrade for some time. As an added, unintended result - my users (wife and kids) have stopped complaining...it just works for them - all I had to do was install their software and leave it alone.
Now I am starting to look at ultra low energy consumption and long power-on time for a portable that I can stuff in my backpack -- that may or may not be an Apple.
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
I don't think the store manager would let them stay that long.
I use MS mouse, too, and MS Natural keyboard when I can. I do hate it when I need to do right click drag in Windows without a mouse on my MBP, though.
1) Apple does not have a midrange notebook line. They start with overpriced low-end hardware with integrated graphics at the price of a Dell XPS M1530. The 1530 is no MacBook Pro but it has the specs of the smaller MacBook Pro for about $1000 less. Regardless of whether or not a regular MacBook uses consistent components, they are not high quality. The product line pretty much rides on the reputation of the MacBook Pro.
2) Once you go with a MacBook Pro you are now competing with PCs and boutiques that actually do use the same components in each machine. The problem is you start out with Alienware prices and as you upgrade the Alienware gets more competitive. Then when you do consider the PC business machines they still offer greater value in with their pricing.
3) The disparity with desktops is even worse because even boutiques are more competitive, even though the profit margins can be slimmer for them.
it should have been at +5, but as you can see there are many apple zealots amongst us.
Read radical news here
If you honestly believe that any company is incapable of shooting themselves in the foot by purchasing a successful company and then destroying it by imposing their own culture on it then I can only assume that you have not been in the IT industry as a "Dell Ops Manager" or anything else for very long.
The IT industry in particular has a long and inglorious history of doing just that.
I'm not saying that Dell will contribute to that list, but it is by no means impossible.
"You can't fight in here, this is the war room!"
s/the iPhone 3G/iPhone OS 2.0/
It's a software feature, not a hardware feature.
Since you are citing anecdotal evidence, so shall I. I am not a zealot. While I use and prefer a Macintosh, I have made use of windows machines quite often, even in the 'creative' fields. I set up a few Gigastudio computers in mac-only sound studios.
Let me see...while graphics are common, there are some other uses:
Gov't Agencies:
The Military Sea Lift Command used/uses Macs for inventory management. I bought some surplus G4s and a 9500 series server off them. I don't know their current system, but they tend to use some custom inventory code, so they still might be on macs.
Let's not forget the US Army contractor COLSA, which bought a 1,566 Xserve cluster to run aerodynamic simulations.
Small businesses:
I do hardware maintenance for some sound studios, all Mac based. This is expected. The contractor who did the build-out for one of the studios uses a Mac laptop. The company that handled the specialty double-pane window frames for the control room was Mac based. The Piano tuner used a windows computer though.
The video rental store near me uses Macs as their checkout platform.
Schools:
Go to any university where Macs and PCs share a lab. The macs almost always fill up faster than the PCs. I know that American University uses a couple XServes as part of their IT needs.
And you say Apple doesn't have a place in web servers, datacenters or programming? Let's go over to Virginia Tech, why don't we. Take a look at : http://www.top500.org/site/systems/2024. How does 1,100 Dual 2.3 GHz XServes on an Infiniband network sound? That sounds like the 280th fastest supercomputer in the world to me. When it was introduced in 2003, it was number 3. That, to me, looks like a pretty strong showing of the datacenter capability of the Mac.
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Macs are not a total solution, but they work in FAR more areas than you give credit for. It is not based on zealotry either. If Linux or Windows could give me the same TCO, and the same ease of maintenance, I would switch in a second.
The myth that 'serious applications' only run on PCs is FAR from accurate. For financials, there is MYOB and Quicken. For graphics there is Vectorworks and BRL-CAD. The list goes on. When you start to talk about "serious functionality" and programs that require proficiency beyond the OS, you need to realize that the platform should aid in that functionality of that software, not hinder it. In my experience, and in that of many power users, Windows hinders, OS X helps, and Linux can go either way.
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
The myth that 'serious applications' only run on PCs is FAR from accurate. For financials, there is MYOB and Quicken. For graphics there is Vectorworks and BRL-CAD. The list goes on. When you start to talk about "serious functionality" and programs that require proficiency beyond the OS, you need to realize that the platform should aid in that functionality of that software, not hinder it. In my experience, and in that of many power users, Windows hinders, OS X helps, and Linux can go either way.
actually it is accurate. the number, variety and scale of serious applications that run on the pc platform are incomparable with anything mac has. you have given some examples, but then again those examples are of common kind of 'serious' examples that pc platform runs. if you have an example that is on the scale of google's server farm being constructed with hordes of pcs running mysql, or a out-of-this-world design program like Katia (it is used to design space shuttle and components), then give them. for these are the scale and seriousness of pc platform software.
Read radical news here
More like, the perfect OS for people who'd rather spend their time USING their own machines instead of MAINTAINING their own machines.
You know, windows is the dominant business platform, and has some advantages there, but for "serious" computing, windows is FAR from dominant. "Serious" has a nebulous definition. I tend to define it as software that functions outside a broad consumer/business paradigm.
I am assuming you mean WinTel when refering to PCs. Windows is not dominant. Remember, Google's server farms might run on X86, but they use a custom Linux rollout with databasing software that is far removed from the limitations of MySQL.
I gave you two examples of LARGE scale Mac farms. Virginia Tech and COLSA are both thousand plus node supercomputers built with XServes. That is about the scale of a Google server farm. One farm tends to be between 2000 and 5000 processors. If you want web services, look no farther than Apple's website, store and .mac/mobileme service. Oh, and iTunes seems to be a fairly hefty service, requiring a LARGE backend.
Let's take CATIA, for example (not KATIA please). It isn't just a Windows program, and is a bad example for you to use if you want to claim that WinTel, or even X86 is dominant. It happens to run on MANY Unix platforms, including IBM RS/6000 with a Power PC 604 chip. You know, that happens to be the exact same chip Apple used in their high end workstations for quite a while. However, lets move to the present. CATIA also runs on Power 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 hardware, all the same PPC architecture Apple implemented for a decade, and quite successfully. If we move over to X86 hardware, CATIA runs on HP-UX. It also runs on a variety of RISC chips from SGI, and even UltraSPARC machines under SOLARIS.
Oh yes, CATIA also runs on a Windows machine. The point is, Windows is FAR from the exclusive platform for "Serious Computing". Linux, the specialty UNIX flavors, SOLARIS and OS X all have very, very "serious" places in the "serious" market. Windows ports are often done for the convenience of the customer, because you can bet the Dassault would rather their CATIA customers stick to the UNIX flavors rather than deal with Windows ports.
Oh, I almost forgot. A CATIA reader (eViewer) has been implemented for OS X by Dassault. Solidworks (another Dassault product, and complimentary software to CATIA has all sorts of software for the mac, and is developing an OS X version. Rhino3D is also coming to the mac.
By "serious", if you mean word, excel, some financial software, and some standard business productivity suites, then yes, windows dominates. However, to every windows productivity program, there is a Mac equivalent, and for every 'serious' computationally intensive windows program, there are equivalents that are often better, available for Unix/Linux platforms, of which OS X is one.
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
I am assuming you mean WinTel when refering to PCs. Windows is not dominant. Remember, Google's server farms might run on X86, but they use a custom Linux rollout with databasing software that is far removed from the limitations of MySQL.
i already said so myself. we are comparing pc with mac. not windows with mac os.
I gave you two examples of LARGE scale Mac farms. Virginia Tech and COLSA are both thousand plus node supercomputers built with XServes. That is about the scale of a Google server farm. One farm tends to be between 2000 and 5000 processors. If you want web services, look no farther than Apple's website, store and .mac/mobileme service. Oh, and iTunes seems to be a fairly hefty service, requiring a LARGE backend.
for the love of god. you know that if you dig deep enough, you can still find huge business networks running as400. being a large network doesnt mean anything with only 2 examples. i doubt that noone can ever dare compare any network to google or other company farms.
and coming to think of it, macs have been recently implanted with intel chips, am i wrong ? so they are basically what ? something like bastardized pcs running mac osx ?
Let's take CATIA, for example (not KATIA please). It isn't just a Windows program, and is a bad example for you to use if you want to claim that WinTel, or even X86 is dominant. It happens to run on MANY Unix platforms, including IBM RS/6000 with a Power PC 604 chip. You know, that happens to be the exact same chip Apple used in their high end workstations for quite a while. However, lets move to the present. CATIA also runs on Power 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 hardware, all the same PPC architecture Apple implemented for a decade, and quite successfully. If we move over to X86 hardware, CATIA runs on HP-UX. It also runs on a variety of RISC chips from SGI, and even UltraSPARC machines under SOLARIS
you very well know that 'also runs' doesnt hold any value. many software are made to run on many platforms, but designed with one platform at mind.
Windows ports are often done for the convenience of the customer,
thats a bold claim to make, considering that market reach is one of the most important factors for any software house. 'hey, just for the convenience' is not something realistic.
By "serious", if you mean word, excel, some financial software, and some standard business productivity suites, then yes, windows dominates.
that even goes without saying. despite we were comparing pcs with macs, not windows with macoses.
Read radical news here
is that apparently Daddy goes to by Daughter an iPod at the Apple store, is wowed by eye candy, buys a laptop. Daddy is a lawyer or something, and eventually goes to start their own firm. All computers are then Apple.
I did not believe this, but a friend of mine who is a full-time consultant for this type... Well, he swears it actually works that way. I guess he could be right.
Not even HP business machines will stay the same for months at a time. You have to buy them in batches.
or else!