Real-World 3G Monthly Cost With Taxes and Fees?

Kristl writes "I have called AT&T and walked into several AT&T stores to ask 'How much will an AT&T phone plan cost per month with taxes and fees and everything?'. No one can answer this question. They are evasive and become testy when I push them on it. Their answer is they can't tell me what the government is going to charge me as the fees can vary month to month, but I've been an AT&T customer for several years, and my taxes and fees have not varied more than a dollar in all of that time. So I question them: 'Can you just tell me what the taxes and fees will be for a 3G plan in California that has the basic calling plan, basic data plan, and the basic text plan?' I even do the math for them, that's $75. Okay AT&T, what are the taxes and fees on $75? Oh, they can't tell me that, as the taxes and fees can vary from month to month." There's more to this justified rant (below); real-world numbers in comments could help answer the questions that cell carriers seem content to sidestep as completely as possible. "Okay ATT, can you tell me what the taxes and fees were on $75 plan last month? No.

Okay AT&T, cn you tell me what my taxes and fees were last month on my current $40 plan ... that only requires reading my bill right? Oh good! They can read! Yes they can tell me what the taxes and fees were on my $40 account last month.

Okay AT&T, we have progress ... can you now pull up a plan that has a $40 calling plan, a $30 3G data plan, and a $5 text plan? The answer? No, they can't do that, that would be an invasion of privacy.

So I ask, can they go through the motions of setting my account up for the iphone plan I described above and then tell me what the taxes and fees amount to? Oh, of course not!

This doesn't seem like it should be so hard. What is the conspiracy that ATT refuses to tell me what the my bill would cost per month were I to switch to a new plan?"

Comments

simple solution

[ArchieBunker]

Too expensive or looks shady? Don't fucking buy it. Take your money elsewhere.

Re:simple solution

[Anonymous Coward]

and where is elsewhere? Seriously, when they're all doing it where is elsewhere???

Re:simple solution

[owlnation]

and where is elsewhere? Seriously, when they're all doing it where is elsewhere???

There is no there, there.

Re:simple solution

[Kohath]

Don't fucking buy it. Take your money elsewhere.

Can I do that with my income taxes too?

Re:simple solution

[Divebus]

An invasion of privacy? Oh puleeeez. May you should ask the NSA who is tapped into your phone. They'll tell you everything about your "plan" with your own tax money.

Re:simple solution

[Perf]

Actually, Yes.

If you live in another country, you can pay their taxes. The first ~$90,000 of your out-of-country income is exempt from U.S. taxes.

Two things to be careful of:
1. In most cases, foreign taxes might be more than U.S. taxes.
2. Might be difficult to get a job or establish residence.

But your cell phone costs will probably be cheaper. e.g. Mainland China - about 2 minutes/US$0.01

Re:simple solution

[cduffy]

Here in Austin, elsewhere is Cricket Wireless. In Dallas, I think it's MetroPCS. Sure, the national carriers screw everyone over... but the smaller ones tend to be a little more up-front with their customers.

Re:simple solution

[Anonymous Coward]

and where is elsewhere? Seriously, when they're all doing it where is elsewhere???

Virgin Mobile. NO extra fees. At all. Why they say 10$, they mean 10$. Just add sales tax.

Re:simple solution

[internetcommie]

I've got relatives in Norway. Actually, most my relatives live in Norway, except those who live in the Netherlands.
Norway is known for it's high tax rates. Most people pay 50% or more of their income in taxes. That is, they pay 50% or more of their taxable income in taxes. Since there appears to be no end of deductions one can take in Norway, most my relatives pay less taxes than me, despite having higher incomes.

As if that wasn't enough, they can buy an iPhone with only a one year contract. Which can't be extended foreer and ever, like the contract I would be expected to sign if I bought an iPhone in the US. As if that wasn't enough, the Norwegian cell phone plan would be cheaper than the US one. Even if I had an iPhone purchased in Norway and used it in the US.
Even if I kept using my old Sony Erickson phone, a Norwegian cell phone plan would be cheaper. Even if I used it in the US.

Other countries probably have even better rates. AT&T needs competition. REAL competition.

Re:simple solution

[backdoc]

I haven't found "elsewhere". So, I tend to just say, "screw the whole lot", and simply choose not to patronize any of them. Until they get a clue, I'll just use my basic phone that doesn't do anything other than make a call. And, if they piss me off, I'll turn the whole damn thing off. Seriously, I did without a phone before and I can damn sure do it again.

Re:simple solution

[GigaplexNZ]

No, you just shouldn't get iPhones.

Re:simple solution

[jaweekes]

I hate to say it, but I don't think competition would do it. I think regulation will be needed to fix the phone industry as a whole.

It's taken regulation in Europe and other countries to achieve fair and honest telecommunications; it's just a petty that America is unwilling to regulate an industry with such a stranglehold on everyone.

I remember back in the 90's the telecom companies managed to get billions from the government to upgrade their networks to speed up Internet access, but nothing happened with the money, and there has been no government checking if the money was spent on the Internet.

This isn't a rant about what you said, but a rant at the government I guess. We shouldn't be lagging in Internet access for any reason right now.

Re:simple solution

[NoSCO]

Here in the UK there's no competition for the iPhone (not that I want one anyway) but the rates and plans are actually pretty darn good.

I'm more of a Nokia person myself, and my N95 on the 3UK network provides 1,100 minutes inclusive or 1,100 text messages or any mixture of the two providing the total of both is not more than 1,100 (extremely unlikely in my case!); A further 300 minutes for 3-to-3 calls (which is fine as all my relatives and most friends use 3); unlimited internet access (proper internet, not just WWW); 90 video minutes, they support Skype properly and all sorts of other stuff. Total outlay per month is $80 USD (converted).

People complain about ripoff Britain but some things we actually seem to get a reasonable deal on.

Re:simple solution

[TheRaven64]

Another big difference with the UK is that in the UK prices advertised are legally required to include everything (there are a few exceptions, most notably flights, but these are being closed). You never buy something, get to the checkout, and find that it doesn't include tax. The same is true with mobile phone contracts - whatever taxes there are have to be included in the advertised price.

This often makes things look much cheaper when you compare US prices, but then you get to the checkout in the US and they add city sales tax, then state sales tax, then some random product-specific tax and you're only paying slightly less. I've never understood why Americans are so opposed to the idea of knowing how much they are going to pay before they buy something.

Re:simple solution

[cgenman]

Ways phone companies rip you off in the US:

* The "guess your monthly usage" shell game. Guess high, and you're paying for services you don't use. Guess low, and you will be hit with a 100 dollar bill for overusage
* Grossly overcharging for text / multimedia messages
* Grossly overcharging for data on non-unlimited plans. I remember downloading a game once on an AT&T network... the game cost 5 dollars, and the data charge to transfer the game was 10.
* Locked into contracts / locked phones
* Disabling features of phones they don't like
* Compared to worldwide rates, overcharging for basic minutes too.

Re:simple solution

[augahyde]

Why would anyone need more than one iPhone?

Husband and wife. More than one kid. Small penised businessman with something to prove.

Re:simple solution

[dwater]

Just because it's someone's first language, doesn't mean they can speak coherently.

I am English(*) and when I went through US customs, the guard asked me, "Do you have a Green Card, or a Visa?", to which I answered, "Yes."

He asked a few times, with both of us getting more and more confused. To me, all I cared was that I had something I needed to get through. What he wanted to know was which one I had, not if I had one.

I also recall calling some service (I forget which) and presented with someone who spoke with a heavy Mexican accent.

Furthermore, I *know* Indian people whose English is very good, and I recently met an Italian (shock) whose English was so good that I wouldn't have known he wasn't born and bred English (I saw him drive once and that gave him away(**)).

I had to deal with an Indian person on a help line not so long ago, and I didn't have any trouble understanding him. He wasn't much help though - he just told me to go through all the baby steps as all the previous people I'd talked to - but I can't blame that on him.

Heck, some US accents are extremely difficult for me to understand - not just because they've made up their own words so it's not English any more. Some US people had the same trouble with me, and my accent is about as English as they come - extremely neutral - I often found myself having to repeat myself.

Of course, you probably meant US English, which covers just as many accents/etc as English itself; but US English != English.

Perhaps US people just need to get out more and experience a wider variety of accents...

(*) not that being English means I can speak coherently either. Some of the regional accents can be quite difficult for even me. I was going to say the northern accents (Jordie/Scouse/etc), but one of my neighbours in Somerset spoke fluent werzel and I couldn't understand a word of it.
(**) joke

Re:simple solution

[Larry Lightbulb]

It's for the benefit of the sellers, rather than the buyers - that way VeryBigCompany can advertise their item at $9.99 across the country, rather than having a series of state/city adverts with the actual price.

Re:simple solution

[RivieraKid]

Here in the UK, VAT registered companies do not pay VAT - at the end of the fiscal year, they get a rebate for all the VAT paid. It is only consumers that pay VAT.

For what it's worth, yes we do pay more for goods in the UK, but that's only partially because of VAT. mainly it's because of market forces - we are stupid enough to pay the higher prices so thats what we get charged.

Meh!

Biased much?

[clang_jangle]

You know, I don't really like the iPhone either, but this is a bit much. TFS' complaint could be used for any phone, any carrier in the U.S. I'm not saying it isn't crooked, or that the policies are particularly just, just that this was a problem well before Steve ever even thought of the iPhone.
Anyway, direct answer to the question of "how much total for basic calling, data, and text?" is pretty much always about $100 to $120 here in the U.S. For the iPhone, Treo, Blackberry, Voyager, whatever. In case you actually didn't know...

Re:Biased much?

[n dot l]

...this was a problem well before Steve ever even thought of the iPhone.

What? Did the universe even exist back then?

Re:Biased much?

[letsgolightning]

I'll admit my example may be pretty rare (and to be completely honest, I'm not sure if this plan is still offered) but my phone plan, with data and text is only $30 a month, with about another $4 in fees and taxes.

So for roughly $34 a month, I get:
-500 'anytime' minutes
-Unlimited text/pic/video
-Unlimited data
-Unlimited Sprint-to-Sprint calling
-Free nights start at 7pm
-Free nationwide roaming (i.e., no 'Local calling area')

As I hinted earlier, this was not an advertised plan, and did involve some work on my part, but my 45-60 minutes of work seems worth it seeing as most pay double or triple for similar plans, even within sprint.

Mt point is, while most advertised plans may be $100-$120, I see that much more like the sticker price on a new car, than say the price of a TV at walmart.

Re:Biased much?

[geekboybt]

My Verizon plan was $79.99 + $10 txt + $5 insurance. That's $94.99. With taxes, which varied, it would come out to ~$98 or 99. So, while the original OP exaggerated a bit (especially for the iPhone, which would cost ~$10 month less), it's not difficult to spend that much per month. I switched to the iPhone, and saved $5 month + $5 insurance (=$10). All this conversation about "OMFG THE IPHONE IS SOOOO EXPENSIVE" is really just a way to get visitors to the site - it applies to every single 3G phone out there, and (as I've shown) even more in some cases.

Re:Biased much?

[wavedeform]

$80 is nowhere near "about $100".

Sure it is, it's about 80% of the way there.

Re:Biased much?

[cgenman]

BTW, avoid that $5 insurance fee like the plague. My ex was paying $5 insurance per month on a late-90's pre-Ericssen Sony phone. When it finally broke, the insurance said that they didn't cover phones that old. Of course, she had been paying them the entire time to cover the phone that old, but they re-assured us that such a thing was not possible. They then asked if she would like to cancel her coverage.

See also this class action suit. These frequently come with a 100 dollar deductible and send back a refurb phone that is less expensive than that deductible. Similarly, they insure the current value of the phone, not the purchase value. As the value of the phone drops, your premium does not, and the likelyhood of a functional replacement drops to zero.

ever fill out a tax form?

[TheSHAD0W]

Figuring out the taxes on a phone line is rather complimakated, difficult enough that providers have made mistakes on it in the past and had to refund overcharges or eat the difference in undercharges. I'm not surprised that the salespeople don't know, and I'd bet nobody on phone support will know either. This is a brand new service, and once customers start receiving their typical monthly bills you'll be able to find out.

Re:ever fill out a tax form?

[NMerriam]

Figuring out the taxes on a phone line is rather complimakated

And yet they manage to send out hundreds of thousands of bills every month that calculate it down to the penny. Sure, they might make mistakes and have to offer refunds or disclaimers, but there's no excuse for them to not be able to tell you exactly what a $79.99 plan in a given ZIP code would have been billed after all taxes/fees were added last month.

This is basic customer service, not some advanced alien technology beyond the reach of AT&T.

Re:ever fill out a tax form?

[hedwards]

So in other words, you would be fine with customer service reps randomly looking up your account records to answer this sort of question?

I can not imagine a way in which that isn't an invasion of privacy, and I would not be doing business with AT&T any longer were they to allow that sort of behavior. It's bad enough that the NSA may or may not be listening in, do you really want some underpaid salesperson snooping as well?

Re:ever fill out a tax form?

[dreamchaser]

Then get the right software on your fucking computers that CAN PULL THE NUMBER OUT OF YOUR ASS ON DEMAND and stop making apologies for a crappy system. There is no reason you can't at least give a close estimate.

Re:ever fill out a tax form?

[GroovinWithMrBloe]

I'm always amazed at the complexities of the tax system in the US (and many other countries).

In NZ, The only Sales tax we have a 12.5% GST Tax (Goods and Services). That's it. Doesn't vary from postcode to postcode. And its included in the price tag of the product, so no needing to figure out the cash in hand price.

There are some petrol excises/taxes, but they're transparent to the user (i.e. built into the price of the petrol) and not deductible.

It's good to be a small country, with no hassles over which state collects the tax, etc...

Australia really botched up adopting GST several years back. They looked at the NZ model, but decided to make exceptions, which are just outright painful. Tax cooked chicken but not raw? But don't tax cold cooked chicken? Yikes! GST Food Guide.

Re:ever fill out a tax form?

[Solandri]

The reason is a bit more insidious. Many of those surcharges and fees are imposed by the phone company. They just tack it on at the end with the taxes and government levies to make you think they're all imposed by the government and thus outside the phone company's control. Sprint's customer service may suck, but this is something they've started being truthful about. At the end of my bill, they break up the surcharges into "Sprint surcharges" and "government surcharges". On my latest bill, 75% of the surcharges were Sprint surcharges.

It depends on the state...

[NJRoadfan]

Every state has a different way of taxing communications service. Florida is the worst of them all from what I've read. Take your current cell phone bill and estimate off the taxes currently on it. Some of the taxes and fees will be a fixed amount per line, others will be based on a percentage of the total bill (sales tax typically).

Also the way cell companies figure out how to tax you differs. Some (such as Sprint) base your taxes on the billing address, others (like Verizon Wireless) base your taxes on the area code your wireless number is located in.

Re:It depends on the state...

[maglor_83]

Ah the joys of requiring advertised prices to include sales tax.

And yes I do realise that that will never work in the US due to your infuriatingly complicated tax system.

Re:It depends on the state...

[Evets]

That's why they have a web page that tells you what your charges are for your area:

http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/additionalcharges/

State
        CALIFORNIA
Regulatory Cost Recovery Charge
        0.43
Federal Universal Service Fund
        11.4%
State Universal Service Fund
        $0.00
Other AT&T Surcharges
        0.18%

Believe it or not they actually tell you what the charges are for. This is 150 times better than what we had when I was younger. Training is an issue in any retail store, but before hitting the slashdot front page, maybe a bit of googling is in order.

Re:It depends on the state...

[RodgerDodger]

Evets, I suggest you go back to that page and re-read the section above those charges. You know, the bit where they say there will be additional taxes that aren't quoted?

See my previous comment.

Re:It depends on the state...

[Evets]

Point taken. I have no trouble admitting when I'm wrong :)

Time to take a look at my bill!

I don't get the question

[Rob Kaper]

What kind of taxes are we talking about here? I can't think of any other than VAT/sales tax and those are pretty straight-forward. Are there any other taxes for cell phones in the US which are directly charged to the consumer?

Re:I don't get the question

[Khaed]

On my (ATT but not iphone) bill, I pay:

Federal Universal Service Charge
Regulatory Cost Recovery Charge
911 Training Fee
State Sales Tax
911 Service Fee

The biggest one is state sales tax, followed by the FUSC, then 911 Service Fee. The Regulatory Cost and 911 Training are $0.25 -- the 911 bit is $0.05. I pay about $6 a month in fees, overall.

Re:I don't get the question

[cdrudge]

I don't know about other carriers, but here's how my T-mobile plan breaks down:
1000 Minute myFaves Family Plan
59.99 - Monthly plan price
1.32 - Federal Universal Service Fund
0.84 - State Gross Receipts Tax
4.20 - State Sales Tax
0.27 - State Universal Service Fund

Line 1
5.99 - Internet
5.00 - 400 Text Messages Plan .08 - State Gross Receipts Tax .06 - State Sales Tax .03 - Relay Service Device Fund .50 - State 911 .86 - Regulatory Programs Fee*

Line 2
5.99 - Internet
0.45 - 2 text messages (no txt plan)
0.01 - Federal Universal Service Fund
0.01 - State Gross Receipts Tax
0.09 - State Sales Tax
0.03 - Relay Service Device Fund
0.50 - State 911
0.86 - Regulatory Programs Fee*

87.08 - Total

*Fee we (T-mobile) collect and retain to help cover our (T-mobile's) costs related to funding and complying with government mandates, programs and obligations.

Re:I don't get the question

[Dachannien]

My phone bill last month included the following:

Taxes:
Virginia 911 tax: 0.75
Virginia sales tax: 1.70

Surcharges (the phone company is permitted by the government to assess these charges due to specific regulations and requirements that the government places upon them):
Federal Universal Service Fund: 0.77
Virginia Gross Receipts: 0.16
Virginia Special Revenue: 0.03

Other charges:
Administrative Charge: 0.75
Regulatory Charge: 0.20

That's on a normally $35 bill.

wow

[rastoboy29]

..yet another way they fuck you.  They SET the "taxes" and "fees", either through the locally bribed PUC or just arbitrarily on their own.

Like the "franchise fee".  That's my favorite.  I don't give a fuck what you have to pay for your fucking franchise--please stop pretending like you don't have any choice in the matter.  But on the other hand, in a lot of places, they actually rig it up so that they are _required by law_ to charge for things like that, for money that they actually keep.

Ask on a cell phone forum

[Anonymous Coward]

The taxes will probably be comparable to sales tax--a few bucks on a $40 plan, e.g. With a more expensive (e.g. data) plan it will of course be more, but if you're willing to shell out $60 or whatever for a data plan you should also be prepared to shell out $8 or whatever in taxes.

To get an approximation just google "XYZ plan taxes fees forum" and see what people say. For example:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?s=bace4f039998a970fb0736cb9659d8b2&p=4412192&postcount=11

Peace out.

US weirdness

[Anonymous Coward]

In most of Europe, sellers of consumer products are required to state the actual final price that the consumer is paying. And that includes monthly cell phone tariffs.

Eliminate Component Based Pricing

[omegashenron]

When traveling to California last year, that was one thing that I really didn't like - how prices are quoted exclusive of tax.

In Australia, the price quoted has to be the price that is paid by the consumer - the airline industry recently got into trouble for not doing this i.e advertising cheap fares exclusive of the fuel levy, tax and other surcharges.

In addition to this, the amount of tax that was charge very often ends up on the receipt so businesses can use it to calculate their GST credits etc

Re:Eliminate Component Based Pricing

[larkost]

This is done all across the US, and the main reason is that the taxes you are going to pay depend on where you buy the product. And not just depending on what state (but that is the biggest difference), but also depending on the particular city. So any advertising would have to take that into account making national campains would be unworkable.

So rather than that everything is adversised without taxes.

Re:Eliminate Component Based Pricing

[jfruhlinger]

I've been told that this is actually a deliberate aspect of the U.S.'s generally tax-suspicious culture. In essence, you are supposed to know just how much you pay in taxes on purchases, so that you get worked up about it and resist increases and push for decreases. If the tax were invisible, it would be less ofa political issue.

Re:Eliminate Component Based Pricing

[LeRandy]

Which is one of the reasons why it is law in Europe [to show inclusive prices]. Retailers don't get a choice.

There is nothing to stop retailers from giving the detailed breakdown on the bill or receipt, or even showing both prices on the shelf ticket, but the inclusive price must be shown.

That way, retailers get to say "but that much is tax", and companies can use the receipts to claim their taxes back (companies are not liable to sales tax), but the average consumer doesn't get any surprises at the check-out.

In the case of a contract for service, I would be very reluctant to pay for something that wasn't spelled out at contract negotiation. As it is, the service provider is legally obliged to collect the tax on behalf of the government, but I would still say it forms part of the contractually agreed payment sum, and thus you should be entitled to, at the very least, the formula by which they are calculated, and their current rates (particularly levies which are kept by the provider and not passed on to the govt.)

Re:Eliminate Component Based Pricing

[gronofer]

Except, we're not talking about a national advertising campaign here. We're talking about a specific sale where the ZIP code is known.

Thing I don't understand in the US is why the prices on the shelf-tickets (or their electronic equivalents) aren't required to include all applicable taxes. I can see why it would be difficult to include those on an advertising billboard, because as you rightly say, taxes change from city to city. However, the billing system or Point-of-Sale computer CAN calculate the price inclusive of local taxes. There is, therefore, no excuse for the shelf ticket or final offer price not to be shown inclusive of all relevant taxes and fees. It inspires consumer confidence, as a shopper can add up the contents of the basket in his head, and work out the total price he will pay, without having to uplift it to account for taxes.

You are saying that you can't even see the final price before accepting the final authorisation to bill your credit card/whatever? I wouldn't be happy with that.

Who cares?

[HairyCanary]

Really? If you can afford $75/month, you can afford it with taxes. I can see their point for not wanting to give out numbers on this, because of the variables involved. Plus, if they try to quote you a "with taxes cost" then you might try to hold them to that figure. Better to just sidestep it and let you figure out the taxes yourself, like you would have to with any other purpose that is taxed.

FWIW, I paid $62.96 last month on my iPhone $60/month plan, and $63.42 the month before that. So extrapolate from there, and for a $75/month plan budget $80 and you'll be close enough.

Re:Who cares?

[King_TJ]

I strongly disagree! When you're talking about a month after month fee that you'll likely be paying for as long as 24 months straight, even an extra $10 quickly becomes an extra $240 you're paying in that time period. Unless you're independently wealthy or something, that's not just some "small change" worthy of just ignoring! That's about what I paid, total, for my original iPhone I bought off Apple's refurbished store.

And the issue I have with AT&T is, I suspect their "taxes" also include a lot of dubious charges. Being a govt. regulated company, it seems it's easier for them to get approval for more funding through a new or increased tax than by actually getting FTC approval for a rate increase.

I know I initially did the $79.99 per month plan, thinking like my old US Cellular plan that was priced about the same, I'd wind up paying around $85 after taxes. But somehow, AT&T wound up billing me more like $97 each month.

Re:Who cares?

[NMerriam]

Better to just sidestep it and let you figure out the taxes yourself, like you would have to with any other purpose that is taxed.

I don't know about you, but I don't buy anything else on which the tax is unknown by the seller, even though the seller is the one collecting it. When i buy something, they ring it up, the machine calculates the tax, and they tell me how much it is before I pay. The problem is that they're essentially telling you to sign a two year contract committing yourself to paying whatever bill they send you, but won't tell you what the bill will be.

It would be very easy for ATT to push out a list to their stores every month in which they say what each price plan worked out to with taxes for each state or zip code in the past billing cycle, with a disclaimer that of course if taxes and fees change the amount will be different in the future.

They just don't want to because they don't give a shit about customers or customer service, not because it's a difficult task or some mysteriously unknowable figure.

Re:Who cares?

[straponego]

So you're saying that if you can afford $n, you can afford (1.1 * $n), no matter what n is; this means that you can afford infinity dollars.

The other possibility is that, you know, some people have budgets; a dollar added to one item is a dollar they have to take from somewhere else, and therefore it is possible for something to be more expensive than it's worth.

Sorry to come off all persnickety. It's just that if I could get my gf to pay a little more attention to numbers like this, I swear I'd have infinity dollars by now...

Re:Who cares?

[NMerriam]

I think perhaps AT&T has a legitimate point in that it changes every month. Perhaps you can challenge that as not a valid practice, but it fits reality like it or not.

Nobody is claiming AT&T should have psychic powers or warranty their customers against future changes outside their control. But expecting AT&T to provide *past* and *current* information for the sake of the customer making a more informed decision is perfectly reasonable. If they can't tell you what the taxes were on a given price plan last month, its because they don't care about informing the customer, not because it's a difficult piece of information for the company to provide. If your bill changes by $.01 every month, I'd guess that's just a rounding difference -- hardly something beyond their ability to explain in advance or include in the price information (or even eliminate if it bothers a lot of customers).

For all the similarities between phone companies and cable monopolies, my local cable company was able to tell me in seconds what my monthly bills would be including taxes and surcharges when I asked them about it while signing up. Of course they said it will be *around* this amount, not an exact to-the-penny guaranteed bill, but they broke down how much of the extra was for each tax or fee and then I had a sense of what might go up in the future.

Phone companies disclaim nearly everything they advertise about coverage, service availability and quality, the idea that they can't figure out how to disclaim future tax changes or accounting changes from any information they provide is absurd.

AT&T's customer service is awful anyway

[sokoban]

I went in the other day to get an iPhone and change my plan that I've had for several years and they were surly as hell.

The guy who was waiting on me kept just walking away for a couple minutes at a time and wouldn't answer anything straight.

He wouldn't say when they were getting another shipment other than to say they could put me on a waiting list if I paid in full today and then it would be one to two weeks.

He never really looked me in the eyes and kept mumbling when I would talk to him.

Most questions were answered with "I don't know" and then when it came down to it, I had to dial 611 to change over my service because I was an old customer.

I still want to get an iPhone because it really is the perfect device for me and my mac based household, but I wish I had an Apple Store near me where I could have at least gotten decent customer service.

Re:AT&T's customer service is awful anyway

[maxume]

I've had nothing but great customer service from American Express (and I have barely needed it over quite a few years), and the people that I have dealt with for ETrade (go with Ameritrade for a discount broker, they have more consistent pricing, or just go with Vanguard or Fidelity) have clearly been in India much of the time, but they have been competent and I didn't have any trouble understanding them. The people I have dealt with for both Geico and Ameriprise were helpful and competent.

A lot of it sucks, but there are companies that are somewhat better.

I hate AT&T

[31415926535897]

This doesn't have to do with cell phones, but it does have to do with AT&T. About 2 or 3 years ago I got a landline phone plan with them that was unlimited local and long distance for $40 per month. It was more expensive than a place like Vonage, but I really wanted the physical land line. I got my first bill and it was $52, and there were no setup fees in there. They had managed to pack in $12, or 30%, of taxes, fees, surcharges, cost recovery (what the hell, isn't that the point of charging the first price to begin with), 911 fees, etc. So I immediately switched to VOIP. I have to say that these phone companies suck, and I cannot believe that they can't give you an all-in number.

Re:I hate AT&T

[v1]

assuming they don't mark up any of the charges on the bill (kinda shows if you mark up the tax) they have to put "profit" in there somewhere. The recovery cost looks like their margin in disguise.

As for why they don't roll it all into one number, the govt requires them to spell out most of the things that go into the bill, so they have nowhere to hide the profit at. So there it is.

Re:I hate AT&T

[Marc_Hawke]

Qwest did this to me:

I was paying between 75-80 dollars a month on my phone bill. (DSL is included in that.) I talked with the Qwest guy and they looked at my long-distance spending. It was a 'per minute' thing and ranged from 17-22 dollars. He said that I could get an unlimited plan for $15, and have a fixed rate.

So we talked about it, he had to sign me up for a 'packager' to get that plan, but he said the total would come to $75.

I talked to the salesman, while holding the bill said, I'm paying $75 a month now, can you assure me that's what this new one is? He ran the numbers again. "YUP."

So, he had to call the guy at the computer to set it all up. Before they finalized it, the guy at the computer totalled everything up and once again said "$75".

So, when I got my next bill and it was 85$ I was a little confused, but figured it was transfer fees. (I attempted to read it several times, but couldn't) Next month's bill came and it was $92.

So, I called, and the technician ran the phone and said that my features come to $75...PLUS fee's and taxes, and so I should expect the bill to be between $80 and $90 a month.

I had been lied to by both of the salesman (surprise!!) in concert. So I asked about going back to what I had before, and of course, that was impossible, because those features weren't offered anymore.

Now I'm stuck with a bill that's about $5/month more than it was before, and just waiting for an oppurtunity to get service some other way (lovely monopolies these.)

My 2c as a former Sprint retail employee

[aztektum]

The answer is: They honestly have no idea. They're trained to say what corporate tells them.

Training typically focuses on trying to sell you on gizmo features and plan upgrades. They simply ARE NOT given that sort of info and, in my experience, the people that work these jobs are not the type to go the extra mile to figure it out or in some cases don't want to say the wrong thing and have an angry customer come back and throw the phone at them (seen it happen over the most marginal shit.)

Re:My 2c as a former Sprint retail employee

[strabes]

That is definitely true for T-Mobile as well. The main difference is that whenever I call T-mobile their reps seem to be 20-something flirty females. I've asked questions about how much plans cost and when our contract expires, etc, and it seems like they'll do anything to get you to stay. One time I called to ask when my family's contract expires, and the girl immediately started telling me about how we just became eligible for free phones and such. I was sort of surprised so I asked her how long we had been eligible and she hesitated for a moment and then said "uuhh like a week." She definitely made that up.

Re:My 2c as a former Sprint retail employee

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

You don't think that T-Mobile is kicking customer retention into high gear because people are leaving for ATT+iPhone, maybe? That's what it sounds like to me. Like how you can get your APR lowered on a credit card by hinting that you're considering to cancel your card...

Re:My 2c as a former Sprint retail employee

[mattwarden]

whenever I call T-mobile their reps seem to be 20-something flirty females. ... it seems like they'll do anything to get you to stay

Holy shit do I have the wrong carrier

Re:My 2c as a former Sprint retail employee

[kesuki]

sales reps can always make you eligible for new phones, the catch? your contract gets extended from the END of your existing contract. if laws get changed to the point where companies can't do that, then of course sales reps won't be able to make you eligible for new phones.

it is a little counter intuitive though, if they didn't give you a new free phone all the time, wouldn't they make more money off you if you stayed with them without getting a new phone? although, if you're upgrading to a phone that has more features (read more stuff to bill for) it does make sense, since even if you get basic, you'll pay more than you were with phone without the fancy features.

Re:My 2c as a former Sprint retail employee

[Longstaff]

Not at all. I've been a T-Mobile customer for well over 5 years. They've always had great customer service and retention. A (long) while back I wanted to upgrade from my old v60 to the T610. AT&T was giving away the T610 (T616 actually, same phone though) for free with a new contract. T-Mobile was selling it for $50 to new customers and $100 for existing customers (that's after the new contract discount). I called them out on it, told them how ridiculous that was and that I wanted the T610 for free from them, just like AT&T was offering, or I would simply walk over to AT&T and get it there. Instantly, the rep said "I can't do that - it's in the system at a set price....but I CAN give you the next 3 months of service free, which works out to be a little more than the cost of the phone..."

They're in it to make money just like everybody else and they'll do what they can to get it. The thing I like about them is the fact that they seem to understand that keeping their customers is cheaper than getting new ones - so they actually TRY to treat their customer well.

They have an entire division dedicated to working with phones that they "don't support" (like the China-Mobile firmware Motorola e680i I had for a while). I've had support techs refuse to get off the line until my Linux laptop was GPRS tethering properly off that same "unsupported" phone. Add all that up and it becomes a little bit clear why I've stayed with them for so long.

iPhone 3G hack is out!

[alias420]

While this is a little off topic it does still deal with an AT&T 3G phone. iPhone Dev Team's PwnageTool 2.0 has been released to the public.

US Wireless Taxes

[sjbe]

Are there any other taxes for cell phones in the US which are directly charged to the consumer?

Yes there are various excise taxes levied on cell phone bills. The federal government as well as state and local government each levy their own taxes on wireless communications. This is a slightly outdated listing of taxes by state. For the most part it is a "because we can" sort of tax courtesy of our elected officials.

Here's my t-mobile blackberry plan

[sprintkayak]

Different provider, different phone, different priced plan.  But, I figured this will turn into a general discussion of taxes on mobile service.
I have a $30/month voice, $20/month data, and $5/month text plan.  I'm billed in Garden Grove, CA.

Monthly Recurring Charges
    Item     Amount
    FP BB BIS MC from 7/17/08 to 8/16/08     19.99
    FP Nat'l Roaming from 7/17/08 to 8/16/08     -
    FlexPay 300 MC from 7/17/08 to 8/16/08     29.99
    Msg Bundle 400 MC from 7/17/08 to 8/16/08     4.99
    Monthly Recurring Charges     54.97

Taxes, Fees and Surcharges
    Item     Amount
    Government Fees and Taxes
    Federal Universal Service Fund     0.77
    State Sales Tax     3.88
    City Utility Users Tax     3.23
    Local Sales Tax     1.49
    State 911     0.20
    County 911     0.50
    Regulatory Programs Fee*     0.86
    Taxes, Fees and Surcharges     10.93
    Total Charges     65.90

My mileage DOES vary

[Anonymous Coward]

I recently switched to AT&T. In the store, prior to executing the contract, I was provided a printed sheet of paper with my plan, estimated local taxes, fees, and my 15% monthly discount. My bill hasn't varied from that estimate by more than a dollar. Certainly, the OP just isn't talking to the right people or found a bad CSR.

The shit sandwich question

[jrothwell97]

I recall reading a comment here, not long ago, stating that dealing with mobile providers in the US was like 'choosing between shit sandwiches'. This, unfortunately, seems to reiterate that this is the case.

Over here in the UK, things are a lot better. If you don't like customer service, you change network. Simple as. I switched from Tesco Mobile (poor customer service on O2's otherwise excellent network) to 3 earlier this year, and the process was quite painless. Am I right in saying that having mobiles on contract is more common in the USA which is what makes dealing with providers such a nightmare?

Re:The shit sandwich question

[JerkBoB]

Am I right in saying that having mobiles on contract is more common in the USA which is what makes dealing with providers such a nightmare?

Yes. On this side of the puddle, phones are heavily subsidized... To the point that some phones are "free" with a 2-year contract.

GSM is relatively new here (as in, it's not what we started with, unlike many other parts of the world), as well, and this makes things more complicated. If I have a Verizon Wireless (which, until the merger of AT&T and Cingular was the largest carrier) phone, I can't take it to any other provider, because VZW uses CDMA. T-Mobile and AT&T are GSM, but GSM coverage isn't nearly as widespread here. Once you're out in the sticks, if you've got a GSM phone, you're lucky to get service.

We're in the stone-age here.

Re:The shit sandwich question

[mosherkl]

CDMA equipment is by and far more expensive than GSM (like almost 10x's more expensive....thanks Qualcomm). In fact, carriers such as US Cellular deployed TDMA (pre-GSM) after analog, and then switched to CDMA. CDMA is a more robust technology than GSM, which is why it give the appearance of better coverage in the sticks. It's also the reason GSM carriers have migrated to UMTS (which is simply wideband CDMA, or W-CDMA). And I think if you compare native coverage, you'll see that AT&T has coverage quite comparable to Alltel and VZW, and I highly doubt they've spent more money on building out their network compared to VZW.

Re:The shit sandwich question

[caladine]

Mod parent up. CDMA is considerably better technology than GSM, for other reasons that just the TDMA carrier that GSM uses. CDMA is also considerably newer, so there's no stone age involved.
GSM is an evolutionary dead end. What the European companies had to do was to swallow their pride and adopt an evolution of the CDMA model. They call this UMTS, but it's really just Wideband CDMA. They took CDMA, quadrupled the band size (to 5 MHz from 1.2288 MHz) and reversed a bunch of the bit definitions in the air interface (power control being the best example here) to avoid CDMA patents. The only part of GSM that was carried over was SIMs, which was a good choice. The lack of a SIM like device is my only gripe with CDMA.

just ask

[Nivla]

I work for AT&T. Maybe you are just asking the wrong questions. Every time I activate a new customer I give them a print out of exactly how their first months bill and normal monthly bills will break down. This print out is avalible through any AT&T vendor and is called a CSS (Customer Service Summary) This print out breaks down everything on you bill including rate plan, data, messaging, extra services ( insurance, roadside assistants ...) taxes and fees broken down by which entity is charging which fees and taxes. Any good sales person will present you with this at the time of the sale. If you not getting one maybe you should consider going to a different AT&T store. Just like everyone else that franchises their business you are going to have good agents and bad agents.

Re:just ask

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds like what he wants is to know *before* he signs up for a plan, not after activation.

Re:just ask

[Nivla]

OK If he wants to know before he signs up with us I can usually estimate a bill with all the features within about 2 dollars. If that's not good enough I can break out my own bill and show him what exactly I am taxed on my current personal rate plan. I have done this for my customers on numerous occasions. I don't want my customers to have ANY surprises when they get their bills. Surprises result in returns which result in chargebacks which means I lose my commissions. It is in my best interest to make sure that my customers FULLY understand everything they are charged for BEFORE they leave my store. Remember folks if you sign up for ANY cell service you have 30 days to change your mind on it. AT least that is how it is here in Florida. I have had customers decide to cancel their service after I went over what the bills would actually look like. I don't mind that at all. I would rather them cancel the service right then and there than have a chargeback for a disconnect in a few months.

And these are the simpler, 4th-edition rules!

[oboreruhito]

Probably because it's too complicated to figure just off the top of their heads, or because they haven't determined your alignment and class.

According to the 4th ed. FC&C Salesmaster's Manual, the taxes on a $40 calling plan is 2d10+2 percent for all classes and alignments of customer.

However, the rules get tricky when adding the data and text plans. If you add those and the customer is any Lawful alignment, or your class is Apple Cultist, the monthly fees and taxes are a d20+30 per month.

If you're Neutral, sales should charge 2d10+2 percent of the total purchase in fees, plus a flat setup fee of 3d20, and whatever the local tax rate is (see Table 13-4.7, "Telecommunication Tax Rates of Municipalities, Provinces, Kingdoms, Shires and Deities").

If your alignment is Chaotic, or you have the Late Bills or Frequent Support Caller flaws, or your class is Go Phoner, your fees are (3d20)d20+(d20)d6, plus (2d20)d20 percent taxes, plus 2d6 in franchise fees, plus 3d20+d6 setup.

If you're identified as Chaotic Hard-to-Please alignment, the Salesmaster may simply escalate fees and taxes and make up complex usage rules (2Gb bandwidth cap except on Fridays and the alternating days of the third week of every fourth month, when it's 256k, for example) until the customer gives up.

However, if sales can't determine your alignment or class - if you're a new customer, for example, or your billing and prior plan history isn't available -Âthey will probably refuse to answer your questions. If a customer immediately submits, they get Apple Cultist treatment. If a customer questions the refusal but eventually submits, they get Chaotic treatment.

If a customer is an insistent questioner, the Salesmaster considers the player in combat and gives the player d6-2 rounds to flee before calling security (see U.S. Government's "Monster and Enforcement Officer Bestiary," table 2.1-1, "Rented Muscle").

We need two things.

[Ihmhi]

We need two things here, which would be very nice.

1) A website that shows the calculations for cell phone taxes, state by state and carrier by carrier. Scans of bills (names redacted, of course) could supply the info efficiently, as can just calling the damn company if they are competant.

2) Viewing our current bill like we can view banks. I'm sure as soon as I make a text, the charge is added to my next bill. So why can't I see that bill online?

Even Worse

[Lord Byron II]

Even worse is that most of these contracts stipulate that you're going to pay them for the next two to three years, but don't lock in the price. You can get a $100/mo cell phone or satellite TV plan today and three months from now they could double the price and you'd be obligated to either pay it or pay an early termination fee.

Re:Even Worse

[Lord Byron II]

True, but try calling them up and saying that. The customer service agent will be unsympathetic. You'll spend hours on the phone arguing this until you finally get bumped to a high enough customer service tier. Meanwhile, if you don't pay, they'll report you to the credit bureaus and trash your credit score. Unless the increase in cost is huge, it will almost always be easier just to pay it.

I want wiretapping broken out

[Animats]

The portion of the "regulatory compliance fee" that's chargeable to CALEA (i.e. wiretapping) should be broken out and listed as such.

That was easy

[bwalling]

http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/additionalcharges/ I went on the AT&T website and found it in less than three minutes. Certainly not worth a diatribe on the front page of Slashdot.

Re:That was easy

[RodgerDodger]

Well, I'm not American, so I don't know many zip codes. So I just plugged in the only one I do know: 90210

Here's the lovely summary at the top:

The amounts shown below are based on the highest fee/surcharge rates assessed in your state; your actual fees/surcharges may be less. In addition to the AT&T charges described below, you will be billed for mandatory taxes and fees imposed by federal, state, and local governments on wireless subscribers.

So, this represents the most AT&T will charge you - would be nicer if it was exact, but an upper cap sounds good. But what's the next sentence? There will be other taxes & fees not listed?

Given that I entered a zip code, the federal, state, and local governments in question are all known. But the page doesn't list these fees. In other words, just like the OP's complaint - AT&T doesn't tell you what your costs will be upfront.

Sorry, but both you and AT&T fail.

Sprint and T-Mobile

[Falstius]

I recently switched from Sprint to Mobile, each with a 2-phone family plan with the least number of minutes (500 and 700). The total cost is about the same for each, but the fees are funny.
With Sprint: $59.99 monthly, $3.88 Sprint surcharges (these should ALWAYS be in the advertised price but somehow never are), $4.41 Government taxes & fees (start of Jun 2008). The total varies about 20 cents every month. Total fees 8.29.

With T-Mobile: $55.99 monthly, $4.67 taxes and fees on the account, $4.15 taxes and fees on the first line, $4.12 taxes and fees on the second. Total fees $12.89 (end of Jun 2008).

The total cost of each? 68.28 for sprint, 68.93 for T-mobile (w/200 more minutes we never use). Why does Sprint only assess fees on one line and T-mobile both lines? (Okay, technically, 30 cents of the Sprint fees are on the second line).

Anyway, there's some data. The funniest TV ad I ever saw was for DSL advertised at $19.99 a month in big bold writting and in tiny blurry letters at the bottom of the screen it says "There is an additional $2.00 cost recovery fee." Where is a class action lawsuit when you need one?

Payment options:

[ZarathustraDK]

Do you wish to pay your monthly AT&T subscription in:

- American dollars

- Zimbabwean dollars

- Loaves of bread

My 70 Dollar ATT plan

[fishyfool]

Is 93 dollars and change after taxes and fees.

Re:My 70 Dollar ATT plan

[Free the Cowards]

Damn, that is expensive. So the answer to my original question would, apparently, be "just about, yes".

Which is, of course, why I asked it. I don't know why it takes five replies and several assholes before I could get to that point. (Not that you're one of those assholes, just a bunch of these other guys.)

Re:My 70 Dollar ATT plan

[Xanius]

With sprint I have two $30.00 plans and $7 per line for insurance, so $74 plus taxes and fees for me is usually like $84-$85.

I feel your pain

[Myrcutio]

I actually went through those same steps with AT&T's dsl/cell/homephone plans. I asked a very simple question: how much would my monthly bill be assuming there are no surcharges? Here's a brief rundown of my conversation.

Happy Customer:So, i have these 3 plans, home phone for $9.95, cell service for $34.95, and internet service for $49.95 (numbers could be off), assuming i don't go over on minutes or anything extra like that, how much would that be with taxes and surcharges?

AT&T rep:about $20 a month, on average.

Happy Customer: Can you be more specific?

AT&T rep: I'm sorry sir, there simply isn't a way to calculate that in our system.

Happy Customer: Ok, well can you tell me what taxes are included and what percentage they are?

AT&T rep: It's all calculated with a formula in our system.

Happy Customer: Ok, can i have the formula?

AT&T rep: It's in our program, i can't access it. Honestly sir your only the second person in five years that has asked for that. I would only be able to tell you what taxes were on a previous bill.

Happy Customer: So let me get this straight, your saying that i would have to sign up for a contract with AT&T and sign a blank check for the first month before you would tell me how much it would be?

AT&T rep: Yes sir, is there anything else i can help you with today?

Happy Customer: Sure, get me the number for Verizon wireless and Time warner.

Oh, and just so you know? it took about 4 days of emailing and phone calls just to get them to admit it. Whenever the question came up i would get transfered to a different sales rep to repeat my question. Clever huh?

here's something I didn't know:

[DragonTHC]

there's been a lot of talk on /. lately about broadband and mobile broadband capacity. The taxes that we pay are directly linked to that.

telecommunications and broadband operators get federal monies from the universal service fund to expand infrastructure to the entire nation. I mean that's the purpose for the universal service fund. Why haven't telecom/mobile and broadband operators expanded their capacities and/or service areas? They are required to pay into the fund. They pass the costs directly on to us. Then they get that money back to build out their infrastructure.

Why aren't they doing it? Where is that money ending up?

11/20/2007 http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07J-4A1.pdf

section I article 2. "We are also mindful that it is consumers who must pay universal service contributions.
Despite our strong interest in providing adequate funding for broadband deployment, we also want to
avoid significantly increasing the burden on those consumers."

section I article 4. "The Joint Board recognizes that while mobility and broadband
capabilities have both received some funding from universal service dollars, the funding has been entirely
within the formal context of providing basic voice telecommunications services by eligible
telecommunications carriers (ETCs)."

This was from a recommendation document where the universal service fund commissioners issued a recommendation that they setup an additional fund for broadband and one for mobile service. Where is that money ending up? AT&T, Sprint, and T-mobile are all rolling out 3g services. Where is the broadband service capacity increases?

Re:here's something I didn't know:

[urcreepyneighbor]

Where is the broadband service capacity increases?

Why increase capacity when you can kill off the top 1% of users every month?

Reduce your cell-phone taxes -- switch zip codes

[Wrath0fb0b]

(1) Switch to e-billing
(2) Change your billing address to anywhere in Portland, OR 97202
(2b) You might need to switch your area-code to 503 -- some carriers will let it slide though
(3) Get charged the lowest cell-phone taxes in the country

I saved about $4/month switching from Taxachussets to Oregon. My parents saved $7 because our town (yes, the town) levies a $2/month tax on cell phones on top of the country and state taxes. Plus, as an added bonus, you can reward a low-tax jurisdiction with more revenue while depriving a high-tax one.

http://www.forbes.com/2005/06/06/cz_sw_0606cellphone.html

lol @ twitter

[Anonymous Coward]

The effect of forgetting to switch accounts when shilling your own posts can be described only as halfway between creepy and amusing.

Taxes/fees? Hell! What about minutes?

[linuxwrangler]

You got all the way to asking about taxes and fees?!? I haven't been able to get a straight answer to (ever changing) minutes.

What is the minimum billed increment? 6 seconds like some of our business lines? 18/6 like others we have? 60-seconds?

When does billed time start? When the call connects? when you press send? When the phone starts ringing? And when does it end? Several companies made a subtle change and switched from connect-start to airtime-start (though still only charging if you connect) thus grabbing lots of extra minutes (but avoiding raising published rates).

What calls are free and what cost extra? 611? 911? 511? 311? 411?

When someone leaves a voicemail, does that count as usage? What about fetching voicemail? From a landline?

Calls on hold with call-waiting? Both legs of 3-way?

Many years ago a TV show grabbed a rocket-scientist and a brain-surgeon, gave each a phone bill and asked them to explain all the charges. Neither came close.

It's high time the government set standard definitions (i.e. minutes start when the call connects and end when either party terminates the call. Billing increments shall be 0.1 minutes. Or whatever.) Let the companies set their own rates but conform to standard definitions and bill formats.

Of course some recent attempts to make phone bills understandable were shot down because then the terrorists win or some such crap.

Arg...

[jrwr00]

I work for a ATT Call center as a rep, and ill tell you why, most of the reps just dont care, when someone asks me i just do a 2% tax and tell them thats the best i can do really, we really have no idea what the costs could be,

ATT CLM (Cancel Dept)

AT&T

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the iPhone users I know feel the same way -- the iPhone is fantastic, AT&T is so horrible that they can hardly stand it. One of the biggest complaints is that the bill is entirely too complicated, flat rate plans result in unpredictable bills that can vary widely from month to month, and the billing practices are so complex that AT&T customer service can explain neither the policy nor an actual bill, to any reasonable degree of accuracy.

Re:AT&T

[ardin,mcallister]

.. You know, that seems strange, since the purpose of a FLAT RATE plan is to know what your bill is going to be from month to month.

Re:AT&T

[dwater]

mod this up....it's completely ludicrous that a flat rate plan reduced predictability.

Re:AT&T

[Maxwell]

I have had a 'flat rate' unlocked, unmolested iPhone for nearly a year now. My bill is exactly the same every month.

There are, in fact, only TWO line items on the iPhone bill:

1) The voice portion (for me that is 39.99. Every month. Always. Just like I signed up for!)

2) The second part is for data. (for me that is $20. Every month. Just like I agreed to.)

Then they add taxes, and total it up.

I am completely at a loss as to how AT&T could make this any simpler? You really think having both a voice plan and a data plan on there is 'entirely too complicated'?

Look to Norway

[arth1]

The main difference that can make a cell phone much cheaper in Norway than here in the US, is that you don't pay for incoming calls. There's no "air time". You only pay for outgoing calls, just like with a land line phone.

Another big difference is that in Norway, you have close to 100% geographical coverage, and that's a country that's sparser populated than almost all US states, with lots of mountains and only a couple of percent arable land.

And, as you hinted at, it's common to buy phones and plans separately, with no long term bindings where you get a "free" phone designed to lock you to just one provider.

In all three cases, this is due to legislation. Funny thing is, the cell phone companies there still make money. There's more than 100% market penetration for cell phones in Scandinavia. "Everyone" has at least one cell phone, and some have several. So my guess is that what they make the money by selling more, not by squeezing more.

What you get for 50%

[KingSkippus]

...they pay 50% or more of their taxable income in taxes.

Because I know people are probably going to choke on a figure like that, people need to be aware that because the taxes are so high in a place like Norway, they have a lot more government-provided services, stuff that we have to pay out the wazoo for in the U.S. Heath care is an obvious one. Obviously, I suppose it's ultimately up to individuals whether or not they want government paying for stuff for them. My personal opinion is that here in America, unfortunately, companies and our government are so corrupt that it couldn't possibly work.

But the point is that even if your taxes are 50% in Norway but only 35% here, it's entirely possible that your disposable income—and by extension, your standard of living—could actually be better.

Incidentally, the richest people here in America don't actually pay 35%. The dirty little secret that rich people don't want you to know because you'd probably vote it out of existence is that the tax rate on the wealthy is closer to 15%, which is much lower than you or I likely pay. (What's your marginal income tax rate?) The reason is because wealthy people don't earn most of their money through income—you know, salary and wages. Income earned by the really wealthy comes from capital gains (i.e. stocks, bonds, and other investment devices), which is only taxed at 15%.

Re:What you get for 50%

[joshv]

I am a little less concerned with your idiotic view of US tax law, and a little more concerned with what will and will not put me in prison. Don't pay US taxes the IRS says you owe, and your ass will end up in prison. I'd say that makes those laws pretty damned enforceable.

weasel words, still doesn't answer the question

[jeko]

Um, no, sorry, not quite. The page you reference begins by saying that these may or may not be the fees you pay. Still doesn't answer the man's entirely reasonable question of "How much will my bill be?"

Re:Reduce your cell-phone taxes -- switch zip code

[CyprusBlue113]

This would be illegal in several jurisdictions. Just hope you never get caught doing that.

simpler Web 3.0 beta solution

[TaoPhoenix]

All the poor guy wants to know is some basic pricing info. Seems to me all he has to do is post this question more directly. After the initial rant about AT&T, let's just ask one of us.

iPhone Dotter, who has this plan, please post this data (even if you have to do it shielded anonymous.)

Or is billing structure copyrighted now?

In The Before Time

[OldManAndTheC]

Yes, but it was a dark and formless void. Shapes moved there that were called phones, but were not true phones, since they did not come from the mind of Steve.

And thus it came to pass that Steve brought forth the iPhone, and there was much rejoicing amongst the faithful, who gathered in long lines to receive the blessing. And it was good.

But doubt crept into weak minds, and some questioned the benificence of Steve. The blessing was hacked and despoiled, And Steve heard of this and was wroth, and lo! He sent forth His firmware updates in a storm of righteousness, and many were bricked, and there was gnashing of teeth and rending of t-shirts. Thus is the vengeance of Steve.

Ever merciful and benificent is Steve, and to reward those who follow him without question, he brought forth the iPhone 3G, to bless the faithful and redeem the unfaithful, and there was much rejoicing.

But still there is doubt amongst the weak and confused, who see but who do not believe. Do not give them bread or salt, or allow them to plug in their chargers, for they are unworthy.