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Real-World 3G Monthly Cost With Taxes and Fees?
Kristl writes "I have called AT&T and walked into several AT&T stores to ask 'How much will an AT&T phone plan cost per month with taxes and fees and everything?'. No one can answer this question. They are evasive and become testy when I push them on it. Their answer is they can't tell me what the government is going to charge me as the fees can vary month to month, but I've been an AT&T customer for several years, and my taxes and fees have not varied more than a dollar in all of that time.
So I question them: 'Can you just tell me what the taxes and fees will be for a 3G plan in California that has the basic calling plan, basic data plan, and the basic text plan?' I even do the math for them, that's $75. Okay AT&T, what are the taxes and fees on $75? Oh, they can't tell me that, as the taxes and fees can vary from month to month." There's more to this justified rant (below); real-world numbers in comments could help answer the questions that cell carriers seem content to sidestep as completely as possible.
"Okay ATT, can you tell me what the taxes and fees were on $75 plan last month? No.
Okay AT&T, cn you tell me what my taxes and fees were last month on my current $40 plan ... that only requires reading my bill right? Oh good! They can read! Yes they can tell me what the taxes and fees were on my $40 account last month.
Okay AT&T, we have progress ... can you now pull up a plan that has a $40 calling plan, a $30 3G data plan, and a $5 text plan? The answer? No, they can't do that, that would be an invasion of privacy.
So I ask, can they go through the motions of setting my account up for the iphone plan I described above and then tell me what the taxes and fees amount to? Oh, of course not!
This doesn't seem like it should be so hard. What is the conspiracy that ATT refuses to tell me what the my bill would cost per month were I to switch to a new plan?"
Okay AT&T, cn you tell me what my taxes and fees were last month on my current $40 plan ... that only requires reading my bill right? Oh good! They can read! Yes they can tell me what the taxes and fees were on my $40 account last month.
Okay AT&T, we have progress ... can you now pull up a plan that has a $40 calling plan, a $30 3G data plan, and a $5 text plan? The answer? No, they can't do that, that would be an invasion of privacy.
So I ask, can they go through the motions of setting my account up for the iphone plan I described above and then tell me what the taxes and fees amount to? Oh, of course not!
This doesn't seem like it should be so hard. What is the conspiracy that ATT refuses to tell me what the my bill would cost per month were I to switch to a new plan?"
Too expensive or looks shady? Don't fucking buy it. Take your money elsewhere.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
You know, I don't really like the iPhone either, but this is a bit much. TFS' complaint could be used for any phone, any carrier in the U.S. I'm not saying it isn't crooked, or that the policies are particularly just, just that this was a problem well before Steve ever even thought of the iPhone.
Anyway, direct answer to the question of "how much total for basic calling, data, and text?" is pretty much always about $100 to $120 here in the U.S. For the iPhone, Treo, Blackberry, Voyager, whatever. In case you actually didn't know...
Caveat Utilitor
Figuring out the taxes on a phone line is rather complimakated, difficult enough that providers have made mistakes on it in the past and had to refund overcharges or eat the difference in undercharges. I'm not surprised that the salespeople don't know, and I'd bet nobody on phone support will know either. This is a brand new service, and once customers start receiving their typical monthly bills you'll be able to find out.
..yet another way they fuck you. They SET the "taxes" and "fees", either through the locally bribed PUC or just arbitrarily on their own.
Like the "franchise fee". That's my favorite. I don't give a fuck what you have to pay for your fucking franchise--please stop pretending like you don't have any choice in the matter. But on the other hand, in a lot of places, they actually rig it up so that they are _required by law_ to charge for things like that, for money that they actually keep.
expandfairuse.org
In most of Europe, sellers of consumer products are required to state the actual final price that the consumer is paying. And that includes monthly cell phone tariffs.
When traveling to California last year, that was one thing that I really didn't like - how prices are quoted exclusive of tax.
In Australia, the price quoted has to be the price that is paid by the consumer - the airline industry recently got into trouble for not doing this i.e advertising cheap fares exclusive of the fuel levy, tax and other surcharges.
In addition to this, the amount of tax that was charge very often ends up on the receipt so businesses can use it to calculate their GST credits etc
Excuses Are Like Assholes - Everybody's Got One
I went in the other day to get an iPhone and change my plan that I've had for several years and they were surly as hell.
The guy who was waiting on me kept just walking away for a couple minutes at a time and wouldn't answer anything straight.
He wouldn't say when they were getting another shipment other than to say they could put me on a waiting list if I paid in full today and then it would be one to two weeks.
He never really looked me in the eyes and kept mumbling when I would talk to him.
Most questions were answered with "I don't know" and then when it came down to it, I had to dial 611 to change over my service because I was an old customer.
I still want to get an iPhone because it really is the perfect device for me and my mac based household, but I wish I had an Apple Store near me where I could have at least gotten decent customer service.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 is the magic number.
This doesn't have to do with cell phones, but it does have to do with AT&T. About 2 or 3 years ago I got a landline phone plan with them that was unlimited local and long distance for $40 per month. It was more expensive than a place like Vonage, but I really wanted the physical land line. I got my first bill and it was $52, and there were no setup fees in there. They had managed to pack in $12, or 30%, of taxes, fees, surcharges, cost recovery (what the hell, isn't that the point of charging the first price to begin with), 911 fees, etc. So I immediately switched to VOIP. I have to say that these phone companies suck, and I cannot believe that they can't give you an all-in number.
The answer is: They honestly have no idea. They're trained to say what corporate tells them.
Training typically focuses on trying to sell you on gizmo features and plan upgrades. They simply ARE NOT given that sort of info and, in my experience, the people that work these jobs are not the type to go the extra mile to figure it out or in some cases don't want to say the wrong thing and have an angry customer come back and throw the phone at them (seen it happen over the most marginal shit.)
No sig for you!!
While this is a little off topic it does still deal with an AT&T 3G phone. iPhone Dev Team's PwnageTool 2.0 has been released to the public.
Are there any other taxes for cell phones in the US which are directly charged to the consumer?
Yes there are various excise taxes levied on cell phone bills. The federal government as well as state and local government each levy their own taxes on wireless communications. This is a slightly outdated listing of taxes by state. For the most part it is a "because we can" sort of tax courtesy of our elected officials.
I recall reading a comment here, not long ago, stating that dealing with mobile providers in the US was like 'choosing between shit sandwiches'. This, unfortunately, seems to reiterate that this is the case.
Over here in the UK, things are a lot better. If you don't like customer service, you change network. Simple as. I switched from Tesco Mobile (poor customer service on O2's otherwise excellent network) to 3 earlier this year, and the process was quite painless. Am I right in saying that having mobiles on contract is more common in the USA which is what makes dealing with providers such a nightmare?
Those using pirated Tinysoft signatures(TM) are a real threat to society and should all be thrown in jail.
On my (ATT but not iphone) bill, I pay:
Federal Universal Service Charge
Regulatory Cost Recovery Charge
911 Training Fee
State Sales Tax
911 Service Fee
The biggest one is state sales tax, followed by the FUSC, then 911 Service Fee. The Regulatory Cost and 911 Training are $0.25 -- the 911 bit is $0.05. I pay about $6 a month in fees, overall.
I don't know about other carriers, but here's how my T-mobile plan breaks down:
1000 Minute myFaves Family Plan
59.99 - Monthly plan price
1.32 - Federal Universal Service Fund
0.84 - State Gross Receipts Tax
4.20 - State Sales Tax
0.27 - State Universal Service Fund
Line 1 .08 - State Gross Receipts Tax .06 - State Sales Tax .03 - Relay Service Device Fund .50 - State 911 .86 - Regulatory Programs Fee*
5.99 - Internet
5.00 - 400 Text Messages Plan
Line 2
5.99 - Internet
0.45 - 2 text messages (no txt plan)
0.01 - Federal Universal Service Fund
0.01 - State Gross Receipts Tax
0.09 - State Sales Tax
0.03 - Relay Service Device Fund
0.50 - State 911
0.86 - Regulatory Programs Fee*
87.08 - Total
*Fee we (T-mobile) collect and retain to help cover our (T-mobile's) costs related to funding and complying with government mandates, programs and obligations.
I strongly disagree! When you're talking about a month after month fee that you'll likely be paying for as long as 24 months straight, even an extra $10 quickly becomes an extra $240 you're paying in that time period. Unless you're independently wealthy or something, that's not just some "small change" worthy of just ignoring! That's about what I paid, total, for my original iPhone I bought off Apple's refurbished store.
And the issue I have with AT&T is, I suspect their "taxes" also include a lot of dubious charges. Being a govt. regulated company, it seems it's easier for them to get approval for more funding through a new or increased tax than by actually getting FTC approval for a rate increase.
I know I initially did the $79.99 per month plan, thinking like my old US Cellular plan that was priced about the same, I'd wind up paying around $85 after taxes. But somehow, AT&T wound up billing me more like $97 each month.
I work for AT&T. Maybe you are just asking the wrong questions. Every time I activate a new customer I give them a print out of exactly how their first months bill and normal monthly bills will break down. This print out is avalible through any AT&T vendor and is called a CSS (Customer Service Summary) This print out breaks down everything on you bill including rate plan, data, messaging, extra services ( insurance, roadside assistants ...) taxes and fees broken down by which entity is charging which fees and taxes. Any good sales person will present you with this at the time of the sale. If you not getting one maybe you should consider going to a different AT&T store. Just like everyone else that franchises their business you are going to have good agents and bad agents.
Probably because it's too complicated to figure just off the top of their heads, or because they haven't determined your alignment and class.
According to the 4th ed. FC&C Salesmaster's Manual, the taxes on a $40 calling plan is 2d10+2 percent for all classes and alignments of customer.
However, the rules get tricky when adding the data and text plans. If you add those and the customer is any Lawful alignment, or your class is Apple Cultist, the monthly fees and taxes are a d20+30 per month.
If you're Neutral, sales should charge 2d10+2 percent of the total purchase in fees, plus a flat setup fee of 3d20, and whatever the local tax rate is (see Table 13-4.7, "Telecommunication Tax Rates of Municipalities, Provinces, Kingdoms, Shires and Deities").
If your alignment is Chaotic, or you have the Late Bills or Frequent Support Caller flaws, or your class is Go Phoner, your fees are (3d20)d20+(d20)d6, plus (2d20)d20 percent taxes, plus 2d6 in franchise fees, plus 3d20+d6 setup.
If you're identified as Chaotic Hard-to-Please alignment, the Salesmaster may simply escalate fees and taxes and make up complex usage rules (2Gb bandwidth cap except on Fridays and the alternating days of the third week of every fourth month, when it's 256k, for example) until the customer gives up.
However, if sales can't determine your alignment or class - if you're a new customer, for example, or your billing and prior plan history isn't available -Âthey will probably refuse to answer your questions. If a customer immediately submits, they get Apple Cultist treatment. If a customer questions the refusal but eventually submits, they get Chaotic treatment.
If a customer is an insistent questioner, the Salesmaster considers the player in combat and gives the player d6-2 rounds to flee before calling security (see U.S. Government's "Monster and Enforcement Officer Bestiary," table 2.1-1, "Rented Muscle").
I don't know about you, but I don't buy anything else on which the tax is unknown by the seller, even though the seller is the one collecting it. When i buy something, they ring it up, the machine calculates the tax, and they tell me how much it is before I pay. The problem is that they're essentially telling you to sign a two year contract committing yourself to paying whatever bill they send you, but won't tell you what the bill will be.
It would be very easy for ATT to push out a list to their stores every month in which they say what each price plan worked out to with taxes for each state or zip code in the past billing cycle, with a disclaimer that of course if taxes and fees change the amount will be different in the future.
They just don't want to because they don't give a shit about customers or customer service, not because it's a difficult task or some mysteriously unknowable figure.
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
Even worse is that most of these contracts stipulate that you're going to pay them for the next two to three years, but don't lock in the price. You can get a $100/mo cell phone or satellite TV plan today and three months from now they could double the price and you'd be obligated to either pay it or pay an early termination fee.
The portion of the "regulatory compliance fee" that's chargeable to CALEA (i.e. wiretapping) should be broken out and listed as such.
http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/additionalcharges/ I went on the AT&T website and found it in less than three minutes. Certainly not worth a diatribe on the front page of Slashdot.
I recently switched from Sprint to Mobile, each with a 2-phone family plan with the least number of minutes (500 and 700). The total cost is about the same for each, but the fees are funny.
With Sprint: $59.99 monthly, $3.88 Sprint surcharges (these should ALWAYS be in the advertised price but somehow never are), $4.41 Government taxes & fees (start of Jun 2008). The total varies about 20 cents every month. Total fees 8.29.
With T-Mobile: $55.99 monthly, $4.67 taxes and fees on the account, $4.15 taxes and fees on the first line, $4.12 taxes and fees on the second. Total fees $12.89 (end of Jun 2008).
The total cost of each? 68.28 for sprint, 68.93 for T-mobile (w/200 more minutes we never use). Why does Sprint only assess fees on one line and T-mobile both lines? (Okay, technically, 30 cents of the Sprint fees are on the second line).
Anyway, there's some data. The funniest TV ad I ever saw was for DSL advertised at $19.99 a month in big bold writting and in tiny blurry letters at the bottom of the screen it says "There is an additional $2.00 cost recovery fee." Where is a class action lawsuit when you need one?
Do you wish to pay your monthly AT&T subscription in:
- American dollars
- Zimbabwean dollars
- Loaves of bread
If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
Is 93 dollars and change after taxes and fees.
Enjoy Every Sandwich
I actually went through those same steps with AT&T's dsl/cell/homephone plans. I asked a very simple question: how much would my monthly bill be assuming there are no surcharges? Here's a brief rundown of my conversation.
Happy Customer:So, i have these 3 plans, home phone for $9.95, cell service for $34.95, and internet service for $49.95 (numbers could be off), assuming i don't go over on minutes or anything extra like that, how much would that be with taxes and surcharges?
AT&T rep:about $20 a month, on average.
Happy Customer: Can you be more specific?
AT&T rep: I'm sorry sir, there simply isn't a way to calculate that in our system.
Happy Customer: Ok, well can you tell me what taxes are included and what percentage they are?
AT&T rep: It's all calculated with a formula in our system.
Happy Customer: Ok, can i have the formula?
AT&T rep: It's in our program, i can't access it. Honestly sir your only the second person in five years that has asked for that. I would only be able to tell you what taxes were on a previous bill.
Happy Customer: So let me get this straight, your saying that i would have to sign up for a contract with AT&T and sign a blank check for the first month before you would tell me how much it would be?
AT&T rep: Yes sir, is there anything else i can help you with today?
Happy Customer: Sure, get me the number for Verizon wireless and Time warner.
Oh, and just so you know? it took about 4 days of emailing and phone calls just to get them to admit it. Whenever the question came up i would get transfered to a different sales rep to repeat my question. Clever huh?
So you're saying that if you can afford $n, you can afford (1.1 * $n), no matter what n is; this means that you can afford infinity dollars.
The other possibility is that, you know, some people have budgets; a dollar added to one item is a dollar they have to take from somewhere else, and therefore it is possible for something to be more expensive than it's worth.
Sorry to come off all persnickety. It's just that if I could get my gf to pay a little more attention to numbers like this, I swear I'd have infinity dollars by now...
(1) Switch to e-billing
(2) Change your billing address to anywhere in Portland, OR 97202
(2b) You might need to switch your area-code to 503 -- some carriers will let it slide though
(3) Get charged the lowest cell-phone taxes in the country
I saved about $4/month switching from Taxachussets to Oregon. My parents saved $7 because our town (yes, the town) levies a $2/month tax on cell phones on top of the country and state taxes. Plus, as an added bonus, you can reward a low-tax jurisdiction with more revenue while depriving a high-tax one.
http://www.forbes.com/2005/06/06/cz_sw_0606cellphone.html
The effect of forgetting to switch accounts when shilling your own posts can be described only as halfway between creepy and amusing.
You got all the way to asking about taxes and fees?!? I haven't been able to get a straight answer to (ever changing) minutes.
What is the minimum billed increment? 6 seconds like some of our business lines? 18/6 like others we have? 60-seconds?
When does billed time start? When the call connects? when you press send? When the phone starts ringing? And when does it end? Several companies made a subtle change and switched from connect-start to airtime-start (though still only charging if you connect) thus grabbing lots of extra minutes (but avoiding raising published rates).
What calls are free and what cost extra? 611? 911? 511? 311? 411?
When someone leaves a voicemail, does that count as usage? What about fetching voicemail? From a landline?
Calls on hold with call-waiting? Both legs of 3-way?
Many years ago a TV show grabbed a rocket-scientist and a brain-surgeon, gave each a phone bill and asked them to explain all the charges. Neither came close.
It's high time the government set standard definitions (i.e. minutes start when the call connects and end when either party terminates the call. Billing increments shall be 0.1 minutes. Or whatever.) Let the companies set their own rates but conform to standard definitions and bill formats.
Of course some recent attempts to make phone bills understandable were shot down because then the terrorists win or some such crap.
~~~~~~~
"You are not remembered for doing what is expected of you." - Atul Chitnis
Most of the iPhone users I know feel the same way -- the iPhone is fantastic, AT&T is so horrible that they can hardly stand it. One of the biggest complaints is that the bill is entirely too complicated, flat rate plans result in unpredictable bills that can vary widely from month to month, and the billing practices are so complex that AT&T customer service can explain neither the policy nor an actual bill, to any reasonable degree of accuracy.
The main difference that can make a cell phone much cheaper in Norway than here in the US, is that you don't pay for incoming calls. There's no "air time". You only pay for outgoing calls, just like with a land line phone.
Another big difference is that in Norway, you have close to 100% geographical coverage, and that's a country that's sparser populated than almost all US states, with lots of mountains and only a couple of percent arable land.
And, as you hinted at, it's common to buy phones and plans separately, with no long term bindings where you get a "free" phone designed to lock you to just one provider.
In all three cases, this is due to legislation. Funny thing is, the cell phone companies there still make money. There's more than 100% market penetration for cell phones in Scandinavia. "Everyone" has at least one cell phone, and some have several. So my guess is that what they make the money by selling more, not by squeezing more.
Because I know people are probably going to choke on a figure like that, people need to be aware that because the taxes are so high in a place like Norway, they have a lot more government-provided services, stuff that we have to pay out the wazoo for in the U.S. Heath care is an obvious one. Obviously, I suppose it's ultimately up to individuals whether or not they want government paying for stuff for them. My personal opinion is that here in America, unfortunately, companies and our government are so corrupt that it couldn't possibly work.
But the point is that even if your taxes are 50% in Norway but only 35% here, it's entirely possible that your disposable income—and by extension, your standard of living—could actually be better.
Incidentally, the richest people here in America don't actually pay 35%. The dirty little secret that rich people don't want you to know because you'd probably vote it out of existence is that the tax rate on the wealthy is closer to 15%, which is much lower than you or I likely pay. (What's your marginal income tax rate?) The reason is because wealthy people don't earn most of their money through income—you know, salary and wages. Income earned by the really wealthy comes from capital gains (i.e. stocks, bonds, and other investment devices), which is only taxed at 15%.
That's why they have a web page that tells you what your charges are for your area:
http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/additionalcharges/
State
CALIFORNIA
Regulatory Cost Recovery Charge
0.43
Federal Universal Service Fund
11.4%
State Universal Service Fund
$0.00
Other AT&T Surcharges
0.18%
Believe it or not they actually tell you what the charges are for. This is 150 times better than what we had when I was younger. Training is an issue in any retail store, but before hitting the slashdot front page, maybe a bit of googling is in order.
This would be illegal in several jurisdictions. Just hope you never get caught doing that.
a handful of selfish greedy people are no match for millions of selfish, greedy people -u4ya
Evets, I suggest you go back to that page and re-read the section above those charges. You know, the bit where they say there will be additional taxes that aren't quoted?
See my previous comment.
"Software is too expensive to build cheaply"