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Navajo Nation Losing Internet Access
An anonymous reader writes "Due to contracts that are allegedly FUBAR, and associated wrangling, the Navajo Nation is being cut off by its satellite ISP. This is the final stage of the process, which already deprived chapter houses of access last April. While the business mechanisms play themselves into the expected ludicrous snarl, the real question may be: Is there a place for an inexpensive ham/technogeek/FOSS solution that could bypass the antics of the for-pay providers?"
http://xkcd.com/257/
I'm the Devil the Windows users warned you about.
They're binary, right?
At some point, we are going to realize that a world divided into nations cannot coexist with a world united on one internet.
It's already strange enough having nations like the Navajo trying to exist inside other nations.
What use are nations these days? Don't they just divide us?
Everybody wants something for free.
Not only is amateur radio restricted to non commercial uses - meaning important things like NO ADS ALLOWED more than simply no generation of profit for sending over those frequencies. However, it's also "no vulgarity", and "no encryption" as well.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.
Are you asking for a free internet solution....?
Pretty much, yes.
Is that really too much to ask from the Open Source pixie dust?
"Is there a place for an inexpensive ham/technogeek/FOSS solution that could bypass the antics of the for-pay providers?"
That question is just as relevant for the rest of the world as it is for the Navajo nation. What happens when AOL/Time Warner/Microsoft/CNN/MSNBC/Taco Bell and Carl's Jr. take over the world? There is no Net neutrality anymore. Everything we do is being watched, and reported to the corporations of the world. In the future we won't be able to sneeze or fart without someone knowing about it somewhere.
When are we going to get together to start forming our own backbones? We need a fat pipe that will always remain open and free and that can't be taken over by corporate greed. But, how would you pay for such a thing? How would you create it? How would you maintain it?
I'd be willing to pitch in $80 / month for a truly neutral network. What's your price? How much would you be willing to pay to have access to a FREE (as in speech) Internet connection?
I'm wondering what the long term plan is. Do Navajos want to get wired Internet eventually and (more generally) get connected to civilization? Do they want to continue to lead an isolated rural lifestyle and have the US government pay for Internet access? Or what?
I did some volunteer web development for a non-profit that deals with a high school on a navajo reservation. A lot of the students only had access to computers at school, and I was thinking that the OLPC project would be perfect for them... although I'm not so enthusiastic with the direction that OLPC seems to be taking.
But anyway, having a mesh-network with cheap netbooks like the OLPC would be a great way to extend access from some single source, if one could be found or created.
Also, I'll be going out there in 3 weeks with some members of this non-profit that I worked for, so I'll get a first-hand look at their situation.
-------
Incite and flee.
See if the local telco will set something up for them. They can use fixed wireless links from the nearest CO if running fiber costs too much.
The telcos have a vested interest in keeping various local, state and/or federal governments out of the broadband business. Its the old slippery slope argument. First, its just a publicly owned system for the Navajos. Next thing you know, they'll be wiring up _my_ neighborhood. (One can hope.)
Have gnu, will travel.
This not due to USAC's problems.
This action is being taken because the service provider and the applicant for the services BOTH conspired to break the rules surrounding the ERATE (Federal program that gives discounts on ELEGIBLE technology, at ELIGIBLE locations, to ELIGIBLE entities).
Wireless services were ONLY supposed to be offered at eligible school locations (classrooms, areas where data needed to transit to GET TO classrooms), but instead the wireless services were installed as a generic community service, some of them winding up in admin areas, boarding halls, and bus barns (all NON-ELIGIBLE areas).
Some folks are making this out to be a case of 'the white man screwing over the indian,' where in reality it is a case of 'the white man catching another white man and the indian breaking rules, and making them pay for their actions.'
For more information, go dig up some article from the Funds for Learning website (www.fundsforlearning.com) or eschoolnews.com
John McCain to the rescue.
Seriously. He's the man for this job. It's in his domain. It'll be a good test of his influence and his geek credibility.
And he's advertising on slashdot now. That's so cool.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Perhaps they could pay for their own Internet access. Like, ya know, everyone else.
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
Totally insensitive to the actual reprecussions of their actions, some GS weenie, probably balding and fat and fearful of doing anything constructive to solve problems because it might screw up his/her next stepping increase in the future, consigns thousands of people to being offline.
Government just doesn't really work.
You might want to RTFA a second time.
USAC, which administers billions of dollars in FCC grants every year to provide Internet service to rural areas and low-income consumers, is refusing to continue funding after an audit by the tribal government revealed questions over payments by the Navajos to their Internet provider, OnSat. As a result, another company, SES Americom, which provides satellite services to OnSat, is scheduled to pull the plug today.
USAC says the provider is under investigation, after the audit raised questions about the bidding process and possible overpayment. But the provider rejects the findings and plans to fight them in tribal court.
Surprise surprise, there was a corrupted bidding process overseen by an Native American Tribe.
Unfortunately, many of the Native American Tribes have poor &/or corrupt governance, none of which is the fault of the U.S. Government. If the Tribe was really serious about resolving the issue, they would conduct the quickest inquiry ever and do everything possible to create immediate reforms in order to regain the confidence of the USAC.
BTW - the USAC is a non-profit corporation, so they're not technically part of the US Gov't
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
They complain they have to drive up to 60 miles to Page, AZ to get internet access.
It should be trivial to set up a 60 mile WiFi link for pennies compared to satellite internet.
Also, laying down fiber is cheap. A lot of long valleys with a few hundred residents have fiber laid. A little innovation and community effort here can solve this for the better.
Maybe getting weened of the satellite access paid for by your internet tax may actually do them some good.
don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
Is tribal governance not handled by some kind of tribal government?
Government screws stuff up. Tribal government, local government, federal government, doesn't really matter. If there's government involved, something is probably being forced to work inefficiently.
Maybe not
Oh please! You've had since 1973 to find an alternative or three. That's 35 years of sitting on your asses yelling "please,sir, may I have another?".
What?
...especially if you're wealthy, WASPy, and in the hole for billions of dollars due to your idiotic business leadership.
How many more years are we going to rob Native Americans of livelihood? Sad fact is, most of the populace will be celebrating Columbus day, not even aware that Native Americans are still the poorest in the nation.
Here's an idea: estimate the value of all real estate in the US and start paying some reparations to the surviving family members. Or at least give them some decent infrastructure since we destroyed their civilization. And if you meet them, they aren't even angry about it... they're probably some of the most patriotic people I've ever met.
Fuck writing your congressman. If you live near a reservation, call them and ask how you can help.
This is definitely not the kind of problem that can be solved by geeks writing code. It's a physical layer issue, one of the hardest "last miles" in the country.
The Navajo Nation sits in hilly desert country. The population density is very low (it's desert, after all) and it's pretty far from anywhere (the AZ/NM/UT border). Most of the telephone service is provided by Frontier Navajo, who I think bought the tribal telephone company. On the NM side, some is now being served by Sacred Wind, a new phone company using WiMAX, with USF funding, to cover areas with an average population density below one person per square mile. Qwest, using old wireline technology, wouldn't go there; Sacred Wind needs to spend something approaching $10k/home using the latest radio technology. That's a fraction of what wireline would cost - and btw, USAC (the FCC's USF subsidiary) might well have spent more (they've funded >$20k/home for FTTH) if asked; that program is totally out of control. See "Sandwich Isles Communications" for a real horror show.
Frontier's network, which covers most of the reservation, is a traditional rural wireline telco, incapable of providing broadband outside of the villages. And if you want to lease a T1 from them, try $75/mile! So satellite, while hardly ideal, is usually the best option. And the bureaucrats should get off their duffs and fix the problem.
I've done some preliminary studies and it looks like some types of high-powered mesh radio network can cover rustic plains at reasonable cost, but this is in the foothills of the Rockies, not flatland, and the hills get in the way, so it would be very costly (as with Sacred Wind).
Some of the poorest in the nation. The African American population still has the lowest household income.
I often wonder... is it a zero sum game? Is it possible to uplift the minimum to the point where eating bark (or pets, or God forbid, humans) is not a consideration even for the least advantaged among us? And if we do that, will we breed ourselves to extinction? Are the divisions better than the unity? Anyone who seeks power will tell you so, but are power seekers to be trusted?
Certainly improving access to information goes a good distance. People living in remote areas can learn that there is within a month's walk a place where food is more plentiful, where their children could have hope of survival. A month's walk is at least 300 miles. That's far enough to improve your fate. The realist in me understands that most of them, given the choice, will stay where they are because the familiar terror of rape and mutilation seems less risk than the terror of the unknown fate. Some few might escape the tragedy in the worst corners of the globe. The Darwinist in me accepts that that's the way it is and those that escape earn the survival of their progeny for the improvement of the genome. It's still sad.
Univerally, though, I have to say that warring factions are where it's at. I know enough of human nature to know that when there is one system under one government then the living conditions will be universally miserable before long, and that condition will persist until the demise of the species.
Forcing our civilized culture on others is wrong. It's bad. It's assimilation. Since this is a geek site, it's a violation of the prime directive. If some individuals reach escape velocity, that's not the same thing as poisoning their culture with our presupposed notions of propriety.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Yes... you just need one location to get a T1 line in (or some other major pipe). The grab a bunch of wireless trasmitter boxes from someplace like these guys (http://www.ubnt.com/). They all run Linux and you can connect to them wirelessly. Plus they have 3-5 mile trasmissions on some of the high end models. Do it right and you have a Navajo nation connected wirelessly on one T1 line. :)
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
Is tribal governance not handled by some kind of tribal government?
Government screws stuff up. Tribal government, local government, federal government, doesn't really matter. If there's government involved, something is probably being forced to work inefficiently.
True, but...
1. Native American Government is much much less transparent about their business than is normal in a 'Western' government, allowing shenanigans that even their own people would protest. We're not talking inefficiency here, we're talking about a (apparently/allegedly) broken bidding process.
2. The OP specifically singled out "some GS weenie".
GS = General Schedule = US Federal Government
This problem is of the Tribe's own making and as I pointed out,
the USAC is not the Federal Government.
http://www.usac.org/about/usac/
The Universal Service Administrative Company (USAC) is an independent, not-for-profit corporation designated as the administrator of the federal Universal Service Fund by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC).
A lot of the Native American Tribes need to join the modern era and create some transparency in their governance. It's one thing when their malfeasance/corruption benefits a minority of members, it's another thing entirely when it publicly harms the entire Tribe. How hard is it to run a kosher bidding process? They could have hired a bonded and insured company that adheres to Federal Standards to do it for them.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
That's a very simplistic viewpoint and runs counter to historical experience and the majority of accepted non-partisan political theory. It is a viewpoint that mostly goes along with governments that use Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) as weapons of political terrorism. The United States does an exceptional job at creating FUD. Indeed, every government created by violence or fear has perpetuated itself through violence and fear, whereas governments formed by peaceful consent almost never use either violence or fear, they survive by consent perfectly well.
(I'm not going to argue over whether or not the war of independence was necessary or not, to me that is irrelevant. What matters is that the war is still going on in the minds of those who run the country, and all is "fair" in love and war - even when the war is a delusionary one.)
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
every geek in the world would be getting free internet access from some Wiley Coyote style setup in their back yard. Note: Stealing the next door neighbour's unencrypted WiFi doesn't count. That's just too easy.
Admit it. You post strawman arguments as AC so you get modded Insightful for refuting them, rather than Troll
"Is there a place for an inexpensive ham/technogeek/FOSS solution that could bypass the antics of the for-pay providers?"
Of course, it's all so simple! We could all build little F/OSS rockets out of plywood, duck tape and bailing wire, putting libre communications satellites based on Pringle's can technology into geosynchronous orbit!
Perhaps they could pay for their own Internet access. Like, ya know, everyone else.
What? You pay for your Internet access?
You might want to look at what was highlighted - the PROVIDER is under investigation, not the tribe. It is the provider that is corrupt, the tribe (very likely) has no more technical knowledge or business acumen than any other non-technical non-corporate organization. ie: not much. This looks like a typical case of a business finding people who lack the necessary skills to evaluate a contract and decided to rip them off as much as possible before getting caught. Hell, I've worked for multinationals that are incapable of evaluating contracts and got themselves screwed over. If you can't expect Fortune 500 companies to bother reading what is written, just because of a fancy powerpoint presentation, can you seriously expect a community get-together to do better?
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Have we reached the point where access to the internet is more important than electricty and running water? Really? 18,000 Navajo families live without electricity, and use kerosene lamps at night, but they can't live without the internet? *
/. gives Bill Gates, this one you can honestly blame him for. His foundation was the funding instigator of this technolgical leap-froging, and the racist motivation is obvious, as no one would believe he's that ignorant. I don't know why, maybe he can't say no to someone pressuring him to do these things, a guilt trip maybe, who knows, but if he isn't man enough to say no at his age that's even more pathetic than being ignorant.
Out of all the grief
Obviously, there's a magical solution as well if there's a FOSS solution to providing wireless internet access to a very large area. It may involve a combination of wireless access point implants that generate a large scale wifi cloud.
/. doesn't mean you need to stick "FOSS" in your question. It's the most overused and abused acronym around these parts. It costs money to set up wireless routers, pay the electric bill, get them connected to a provider, and pay that bill as well. We just had our free metro wi-fi turned off because even pumping ads at people wasn't enough to pay for it. Sorry, Libertarians, you're going to need a government solution for this one. Unless the tribe pays the bill or some corporation that has a lot of extra money they don't want to give to their employees is willing to donate it.
Just because it's
...the concentration of wealth has nothing to do with who controlled the land and resources of this country which were taken by force.
We did it, and we still benefit from the economic prosperity of our forefathers. Stop trying to pretend that you'd be where you are without the trampling of indigenous people. Just because you don't want to feel bad isn't excuse enough.
Of course, this doesn't apply if you are the minority or descendant of the oppressed where you live. But that's doubtful given your opinion on the matter.
I know it can be tough to go low-baud after having high speed internet, but don't these guys have a working implementation of TCP/IP Over Smoke Signal?
[T]he war of independence... is still going on in the minds of those who run the country...
What? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've read all year.
... whereas governments formed by peaceful consent almost never use either violence or fear...
Examples, please. I'm sure you'll find the nations that you're thinking of were born in blood or oppression. Most countries were, unfortunately.
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
PLease, the FCC is ending it's grant money.
So the Nation is upset it's not getting it's free ride.
But wait,
"New Mexico Sens. Jeff Bingaman (D) and Pete V. Domenici (R) wrote to the FCC two weeks ago. "We are deeply disturbed by this imminent loss of communications service to vital public safety agencies."
So the government wants to help.
The government does work, and in fact if you actually researched it you you find that with almost all it's projects the government is very efficient, more so then any corporation could be.
Go to your library and look at the budget and actuals. Far less waste.
oh, btw, stop setting up straw men, it's doesn't help and makes you the weenie.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Government just doesn't really work.
Government is a reflection of civilization. I don't like this at all.
Landlines, radios, tv signals, cars; no one is getting cut off from the world.
An ugly glitch that needs fixing. They don't deserve your business, and the can't keep you off the net.
Happy Friday
Lurking at the bottom of the gravity well, getting old
Just checking.
I'll be laughing my ass of when the Chinese knock you off your land and say, "Look at that white trash. Just sits in his trailer all day and drinks. Can you believe they could only support 300 million people on their land?"
Natives worked less hours, had cleaner air, water, food, and lived sustainably. It's better than we seem capable of. But you probably measure wealth in dollars. How's that been treating you lately? 401K looking good? Oh, and that lack of road thing is probably refuted by every piece of archeology in the western hemisphere, unless your definition of road needs asphalt, in which case there were no roads until the 20th century. Which seems kind of inaccurate.
I imagine your kids are getting some kind of education!
Yes, but with it hidden, and using demogaugory, they can make the US the cause of all their problem.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Here goes whatever karma I've built up, but oh-fucking-well:
1. Native American Government is much much less transparent about their business than is normal in a 'Western' government, allowing shenanigans that even their own people would protest.
You insensitive White Man! You and your Western style of government and business is evil and corrupt! Don't you realize, Evil White Man, that bribes and corruption are part of our Native American culture?!
The Great Spirit manifests itself in suitcases filled with money!
"The fight for freedom has only just begun." - Geert Wilders
You honestly believe the United States got to be one ofthe richest, most powerful countries in the world by scaring its citizens with "political terrorism"? And you're sure it has nothing to do with our being one of the freest countries in the world? And you also have some explaination for why countries like Cuba, North Korea, Laos, East Germany, and the Soviet Union are/were shitholes, despite their massively invasive communist governments, right?
Unless you can provide any kind of evidence, I have to disagree. In fact, some people might say there's roughly an inverse relationship between goverment control and the well being of the people in a country. But hey, don't let facts and evidence get in the way of your bullshit.
Can you even name a single real life government based on "peaceful consent" that hasn't sucked? I agree it sounds great on paper, but it just wouldn't work in real life.
Maybe not
Iberians for example.
Current Catalonia, ancient people, ancient culture, first european parlament, never imperialistic.
What's in a sig?
Wrong. There is good government and there is bad government. It generally depends on the people conducting said government. Spend a couple years in the third world (or New Mexico, where I live), and you will quickly discover that good government actually means a lot. Being able to collect taxes, keep the electricity on, and keep civil servant bribes to an absolute minimum turns out to be wonderful for improving quality of life.
How about doing something like taking a BiQuad Antenna and those old Direct TV or 10 and 12-foot Satellite dishes and turning them into long-range 2.4GHZ transmitters/receivers? This is open desert area we are talking about, so line of sight is definitely available for such devices.
How-To: Build a WiFi biquad dish antenna
http://www.engadget.com/2005/11/15/how-to-build-a-wifi-biquad-dish-antenna/
By taking the technology and means of how it was done before (as seen the in above how-to), one could most likely expand the network by adding in the means of a Merski Wireless Mesh Network, thus keeping the costs down to a minimum (utilizing the ad-supported capabilities of the Merski solutions).
Ok, so I get how some people have an axe to grind. Partisan politics and all that. I get that. Look, though. Moderation is supposed to be fair. The Navajo Nation is at mostly in Arizona. I have friends on the reservation there. John McCain is the Senator from Arizona. How in the world (to use a nice word) is the parent off topic? I've been to the Navajo Nation. I've been to the Apache Nation. They could both use his help, and all the other help they can get. Does the fact that he's currently a candidate for President eliminate all of the good he could do for these people? They need his help and he has it to give. Let's encourage him to give it.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
"How hard is it to run a kosher bidding process?"
I'm posting anonymously, but one of my clients from time to time is a tribal government. It's actually pretty damn hard to run a kosher anything, when there are no trained employees whatsoever.
Consider that only 7% of the Navajo nation over age 25 has a college degree. That includes associates degrees too. Only 56% made it through high school.
Need someone who can e.g. run Excel or quickbooks? And someone who isn't caught up in the various things that occur disproportionately often in extremely poor areas, such as health deterioration, family issues, drug abuse, etc? Good luck with that.
Say you're lucky and land the perfect employee to help with running your government office. Congratulations, they just left for better pay in another division (or off the reservation entirely)!
It's really a rather difficult and sad situation that won't resolve itself for a generation or more, barring drastic change.
If you enjoy some benefit from the resources that were gained from the trail of tears then you are at least a little at fault, even today.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Last I heard the Navajo had a sovereign nation, so why should the FCC be paying for their internet access again?
If they can't govern themselves, employ themselves, feed themselves, or keep the lights on maybe it's time for them to join the U.S.A.
Indians actually prefer to be called Indians, or by the name of their tribe, if that matters. I'd prefer to listen to them, rather than what guilty-feeling white liberals think I should say.
Besides, even the T Tex isn't really a native American. They walked here just like the Indians did. Indians just got here earlier than I did.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
"Almost all its projects." I think you may want to look up the Big Dig in Boston, many DMVs, the WTC reconstruction, and congress. The government is SOMETIMES efficient, but usually at a level where people don't report directly to elected officials AND have the right personality leading them. Making broad claims without a good basis is a bad idea.
Monoculture society, like large agricultural monoculture, is anti-survival. In general a monoculture, lacking the strength of diversity, is prone failure from the first serious malevolent force or organism to threaten it. A multitude of famines throughout history has proven this for agriculture; there is very good reason to believe -- actually there is also good historical evidence -- that this concept has a close analogy with human "cultures".
... lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding." -- U.S. Justice Louis Dembitz Brandeis
While one worldwide society might SEEM like a worthwhile goal and good idea on its face, the shortcomings are insidious and subtle but all too real, and not just potentially but almost certainly disastrous in the long run. It is NOT a good idea.
--
"The greatest dangers
Remember, my theory says NOTHING about success, wealth, power, influence or even freedoms. It states that a system will typically be maintained by the means by which it is created. You can have a violently maintained nation that still has enormous freedoms. In the most trivial sense, the fact that US cops carry guns is all about maintaining law and order through the threat of them shooting you. If that wasn't an effective threat, why would they bother?
You can also have FUD and freedom. Classic example - the raising of the national alert status for the Democratic Convention in 2004. Wonderful example of deliberate scare tactics, but it didn't alter anyone's freedom to attend. Margret Thatcher routinely used scare tactics to frighten people away from voting Labour, superb FUD work, but she never stopped anyone supporting them or voting for them.
My first claim is that you cannot have a nation that was founded through violence that uses neither FUD nor violence to survive - such methods guarantee real and imagined grievances will make it unsafe for such a nation to ever renounce such methods. Any nation that tries will inevitably get itself replaced. You have shown me no counter-example. All your examples verify this claim.
My second claim is that you cannot have a nation that was founded through peaceful means that uses either FUD or violence to survive - should it try, the backlash will always exceed its capacity to deal with both the rebellion and whatever caused it to adopt such tactics in the first place. There are rather fewer examples of such societies, but they have existed (Skara Brae is a good example, surviving 1,500 until finally being beaten by the environment) and they do exist (Iceland is considered the most peaceful in the world, has been a genuine democracy since 930AD and I don't recall it getting mentioned here for Big Brother tactics).
I make no other claims, although since you brought up America's wealth, I would point out Iceland is one of the wealthiest nations in the world. This would indicate to me that any nation is capable of wealth, that wealth is wholly independent of the means to sustain the government.
(Please note: I dislike Iceland's stance on many issues, but I respect them for being honest in their views. I wouldn't want to live there, and I do choose to live in the US freely even though I regard the current regime as a bunch of mindless thugs and don't expect any future regime to improve on that.)
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
You can still terrorize as large an area as you want if you can get the arms and people to do it :P
Someone in power will in fact seek unity, not division. They do this by trying to unite people under their immediate authority against a distant enemy. They do this because it puts them in more control and gives them more power over this home group.
The more distant and more abstract -- and more powerful -- the enemy is perceived as being, the more potential "unity" against this "enemy" that can be achieved close to home, and thus more central power can be asserted.
The threat of "terrorists of uncertain origin" is one excellent example of the use of this technique. Sound familiar?
.
allow me to introduce you to the geography of the 26,000 square mile Navajo Nation
Who is "We" white man?
Do you mean dead people whose skin was a shade not unlike your own?
Crying about the crimes of the long departed and allowing LOSERS and CRYBABIES to trick you into feeling personal guilt and responsibility for those crimes out of superficial resemblance to the perpetrators is RETARDED.
The notion of group responsibility is a leftist canard. You are responsible for your own actions, not for the actions of others, and certainly not for the actions of people who were dead and buried many decades before you were ever born.
You are not guilty on account of your race. You are not responsible on account of your skin color. In the saga that was the colonization of North America, the guilty and the innocent are all long dead and buried. If you prefer to curse the memory of the guilty then don't let me stop you, but don't let yourself be fooled into thinking that their guilt bloodies your hands, or that the descendants of the victims from that era have inherited that victimhood and are therefore deserving of appeasement and propitiation. My ancestors were enslaved and murdered by the English for centuries. The British people don't owe me any apologies and they don't owe me a dime. I would be insulted and disgusted if either were offered.
And please, stop quoting Chomsky, it just makes you look gullible.
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
While the theft of the term "liberal" by leftist anti-liberals did take place many decades ago, it is still a term that does not apply to them and should not be used to describe them.
A liberal is someone who believes in liberty and who pursues policies that create, expand, and protect liberty. A leftist is someone who believes in tyranny, and who pursues policies that create, expand and entrench tyranny.
When you allow the left to choose the terminology by which they will be described, you are hand them a victory. You don't call a child molester a "boy lover." You don't call a rapist a "persistent suitor." You don't call a terrorist a "freedom fighter." And you sure as hell don't call a leftist a "liberal." To do so tarnishes the good name of the men and women who have fought and died to bring the light of freedom into the world.
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Do you know the difference between all the heinous offenses you listed and the Trail of Tears?
You're still heating your house with the natural gas that yields from under the homes they were driven off of.
Do you get it now?
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Your post sounds like you're still 4 years old :-) Can you say "collective you"? Damn near 40, and you(personally this time) are looking to congress to fix your very little problem. I would pity you, if I wasn't rolling on the floor laughing at you. Struggling indeed.
What?
...the concentration of wealth has nothing to do with who controlled the land and resources of this country which were taken by force.
And, of course, native American tribes gained all of their land and natural wealth by divine grant, with absolutely no use of force to gain power or status over their peers and rivals, right?
'a';DROP TABLE users; SELECT * FROM DATA WHERE name LIKE '%'... if you're reading this, it didn't work.
It is 60 miles to the nearest town with net access.
So I will venture that town has fiber.
Fiber can be run close to 200 miles without a line amp.
A cpl of Asynchronous Xfer Mode cards for each end are a
few hundred bucks, and some older refurb Cisco gear and
your good to go.
An OC-3 in the town 60 miles away from the local
carrier will cost less than $10,000/mo. and give them
155 Mbps that they can hookup to a Squid Box to
use as caching mechanism to save on xmitting the
same data twice to two different hosts.
Local cable TV companies ran their fiber in aerial protected
cabling with a strength enhancing strand down the center.
When you consider how much aerial fiber the cable companies
ran in major cities, I'd say it is easily doable.
The Navajo should contract it out.
For 2.25 billion I dare say they could do their own Coop ISP
like some other ppl have done around the US.
http://www.coop.net/
And when they run it run multi-strand in case one fiber pair
has issues at some point in the future.
In fact I bet as a PR stunt Cisco would come out and profile
the whole setup for them.
Just my two cents...
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
Correction the OC-3 costs around $40,000/mo.
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
Hey man. You can't speak badly about the current administration here in America! We are FORWARD thinkers. Go on, with all your listed examples above, name one other country that has managed to put so many of the mentally disadvantaged into such prominent positions.
None?
America == Open.
We put our flaws out there for all the world to see. We don't see China lining the streets with mental midgets when the Olympics goes there but here, in the land where we're all equal, we'll parade 'em out to shake the hands of dignitaries from around the world.
Sorry, couldn't resist. It is almost time for these tired old bones to get some sleep.
I really wrote that so that I could say that that was an interesting post that you made. You should journal it some time so people can refer to it. Or wikipedia it as JD's Theorum or the likes.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
For some reason my mind swapped price of T-3 and OC-3.
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
> Perhaps they could pay for their own Internet access. Like, ya know, everyone else.
1. build a casino
2. deduce the internet connection from taxes
3. profit.
Surplus barrage balloons and WIMAX should cover a bit of ground in a hurry... Solar power should be relatively easy in that location for the high altitude repeaters.
If you have hills, you need the transmitters on the high ground. 10-15K feet should do.
>deduce the internet connection from taxes
Pray tell, Watson, how would one do that?
Yeah there are some other major screw-ups too, like the last 3, 4? attempts to modernize the core computing systems of the IRS. Or some of those attempts to upgrade the air traffic control systems in the last 2 decades. Of course, you know what? Most of the ones I and you listed were contracted and subcontracted out to private and public corporations, not carried out directly by government employees.
Oh, and let's not forget defense contractors like Halliburton, KBR, Blackwater, Boeing/Rockwell, etc.
Government is often pretty efficient, but their biggest problems are that markets are more prone to corruption when there is no or little competition either on the selling side or on the buying side. The larger the government the more it presents a tempting target for corruption. The biggest inefficiencies are usually in the corruption of companies that feed at the public trough.
Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
The irish state was formed after a violent civil war and more rebellions/uprisings than I can count on both hands yet our police don't carry guns on the streets and the joke about our army is "Join the Irish army, see interesting places, get to know the other 2 guys."
A state formed through violence can be quite peaceful.
Australia was formed peacefully yet they get a fair whack of the FUD that americans get about terrorism.
Looking for nations that formed peacefully seems to be a problem since so few are formed that way and it's always debatable since often they came to be as a result of a larger conflict or the violence was limited to a handful of top politicians being bumped off.
Some of the countries which came into being when the soviet union fell apart were formed peacefully but are far from perfect when it comes to oppression/violence.
Worst. Poem. Ever.
I think the GP is slightly silly.
Only slightly, but I don't think WAP is the right choice for our new open source/free access/quickly outlawed wireless network.
The mod(s) who are moding you and GP offtopic, however, need to get hit hard with a clue stick. Repeatedly.
Nations aren't a problem. In a way yes it divides people but having one nation will still result in divides. There have always been divides. That is who humans and most animals work. You have your group and they have their group. That won't change ever.
You also forgot:
United States - founded by a combination of violent revolution and violent conquest.
You have alot of interesting stuff here, but off the beaten path of what is being asked I think.
What the Navajo Nation is needing is Tier 1 access, or in the alternative, as suggested by the article, become a Tier 1 provider. I think within the reservation, using high power (50W) access points upon hill and mountain tops to wirelessly distribute to the end points would actually be a worthwhile solution, close to what 802.11 was designed for, then link the access points wirelessly again with a point to multi point backbone as they should all have line of site of each other. Now it is just a matter of getting it connected to the net. And from the geographic location of the reservation, and them needing to be their own provider, a DS3 to San Jose and Dallas or Chicago to peer at the NAPS. I don't think the big boys will be anal about peering with their community at the NAPS like they are with peering with other for-profit providers.
I peered at the Ameritec NAP through most of the 90's in Chicago and was able to pass most of my traffic there, over 50%, as a for profit provider, so MCI/Sprint/UUNet wouldn't peer with our network, but would gladly sell transit over the NAP, which would give the Navajo the option if needed. Reading TFA doesn't make clear if the Navajo or the USAC budget is $2.25b/yr, but I'm going to assume the USAC budget is that, so what I've suggested and what the Navajo budget are still might be within the costs on an ongoing basis of what their contract with OnSat was costing, and much better service, but the initial hardware cost might be out of reach for them
Being a spelling & grammar Nazi is a sign you do not poses the intelligence to contribute to the conversation
How hard is it to run a kosher bidding process?
I thought they were Native Americans, not Jews.
What if Tetris was invented by Nazis?
Australia formed peacefully? Well if by that you mean the Aborigines didn't put up much of a fight when the white man conquered them...
As for the countries formed from te former USSR, well, there may not have been open warfare, but well, you think they just called the Kremlin and said, 'hello chaps we're independent now' and the Russians said 'Jolly good, well we'll withdraw our troops and let you get on with it'?
What if Tetris was invented by Nazis?
Or you could tap into the fibre line running through native land, and start an internet casino hosting service. It's arguably the only legal casino hosting in North America.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
The Navajo Nation is larger than a considerable number of states. It is sparsely populated. Many (most?) residences do not have landline telephone service, i.e., there is no landline for them to access. Wouldn't it be necessary to run cable to each of these homes and businesses and schools?
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
2.25 billion is the budget for the entire USAC, which supports a whole lot more than just the Navajo's interwebs.
Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
Or maybe the current government could remember it was their country originally that the white man stole from them and cut them some slack.
I dont read
Ah yes, I've so enjoyed the amazingly efficient and terribly polite service I get from from that outstanding example of free enterprise, my cable company.
Then, how 'bout them airline companies, eh?
You are allowing your ideology to shut off your critical faculties.
The profit motive is no guarantee of competence.
As the Post article notes, the paperwork involved here is apparently quite complicated, leading to errors. I'd suggest that this be the first avenue of investiagtion.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
By your, umm, logic, hardly anyone on the planet merits a description as a native resident. Unless you live somewhere near the Olduvai Gorge, your ancestors went walkabout.
The word "native" is typically applied to people who appear to be the first, i.e., original, inhabitants of a territory. Today's Indians are descendants of the first people to successfully settle in the Americas. How those folks got here is irrelevant.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Dialup at 33K or even 14K works fine if you block active content and multimedia.
Same with satellite phone only it's a bit more pricey.
It sounds like either or both is available to most households.
How's the cellular coverage out there?
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
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Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Maybe if Congress restricted its telecommunications grants to schools and the like it would free up money for the schools to spend on teachers and other educational materials.
Oh, wait....
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
The United States, and before it other major world powers, have a long tradition of paying for projects in other sovereign nations.
It's one way to maintain influence and exert control.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
They are a nation. They have a communications commission. The Navajo should simply change the rules for that within their nation.
Internet use over ham can be restricted to tribal members. End of problem.
Who will get upset? The jackass provider who has threatened the entire Navajo nation with this shutdown.
You honestly believe the United States got to be one ofthe richest, most powerful countries in the world by scaring its citizens with "political terrorism"? And you're sure it has nothing to do with our being one of the freest countries in the world?
The United States got to be one "richest, most powerful countries in the world" for two main reasons:
1. North America has lots of natural resources & arable land.
2. The Colonies kicked out their colonizers before all those resources were exported back to the mother/fatherland.
Everything else flows from those two reasons.
There are lots of African Countries that could be mini-super powers by now if the British/French/Dutch/Spanish/etc colonialist phase hadn't siphoned off the resources and left the colonized countries with unstable governments & foreign relations dependancies.
The USA is a prime example of what 'western' culture (of the time) can create when it is unfettered. Most of Africa and South America are examples of what colonialism does to the colony.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Iberia is NOT Spain, my dear.
There are different cultures-nations on the iberian peninsula. Spain is a classical imperialistic kingdom. Catalonia, (iberian culture descendent) ha never been a imperialistic nation.
Don't get fooled by political propaganda. Spanish nation has been trying to erase-minimize Iberian/Catalonian culture for more than 3 centuries.
So no, 'iberians' are not 'spanish'. Iberian is a millenary culture, Spain just is a 5 centuries old imperialistic estate.
What's in a sig?
...we didn't NEED alternatives most of that time.
Yes we did, right from the very first time the pushers pulled this stunt. Maybe you didn't see the need, but I sure did and have worked around it since 1982, while you simply closed your eyes. I prepared in foresight, and I cannot care less about the price of gas. I was laughing in '73, and I'm laughing now. Congress has been doing this since I can remember. It is a regularly scheduled recess. And you all are just demanding for them to come back and secure you another fix. Quitcherbellyachin!!! And make tell your damn congress to do nothing more than make sure the alternatives have equal access to the market. Oh, and by the way, the same goes for internet access, create some alternative forms of access, and you'll be dictating the terms of service to the ISPs, instead of the other way around. And do it NOW before you start crying "woe with me" when you "need" to. The problem is as trivial as you make it.
What?
In fact I bet as a PR stunt Cisco would come out and profile the whole setup for them.
I bet you Cisco couldn't give a rats ass about doing any PR stuff for this situation.
What's the wager?
Two points.
1. Read your own .sig
2. For some reason my mind swapped price of T-3 and OC-3.
Let's just say you can't spell OCD without OC.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
USAC almost never shuts down funding (and they never, even in this case, shut down service). Someone broke some serious rules in a flagrant manner. Unbreak the rules, get certified, and funding will resume. It's simple. Oh, and if the carrier wasn't an idiot, they'd be able to provide "free" services to areas that want coverage but aren't USAC areas and still not get into trouble. How do I know? Because GCI does it with satellite services in Alaska now. They've been doing it for years, and have been reported top USAC for it and investigated, so I know it's legal (at least according to the USAC people who looked). So my guess is that the easiest solution is to fix whatever got the USAC funding stopped and do essentially what they were doing before.
Learn to love Alaska
The real question is... why aren't they starting all over again and seeking a new provider, with a brand new bidding process?
It should have been done long before this contract was expiring...
If the 18,000 familes did a bulk group buy, so they could get wholesale prices, they should be able to each get a single solar panel, a storage battery and some DC lighting for not that much. And for that matter you can build wind chargers that work, there's plans out there for that. In ye olden hippy days, we just had two vehicle batteries and a backup light from the junkyard for "alternative energy" for in the cabins/hovels lighting. Just swapped the batteries out in the vehicle before they got too run down to start it again. Of course, that means you need fuel, and a vehicle, and I imagine pickups and tractors might be useful for them, so maybe they would need to develop biofuels onsite. Agave cactus can make some good fuel, if you can resist drinking what you make. Maybe there are some more desert crops they can grow for that.
Anyway, the point is, there are ways around being able to both live remotely and also have a modicum of normal technology. As to getting internet access out there, there really isn't any option right now except to go to some wireless tech,not the way they were doing it but some other way, probably microwave relays going to...wildcard, depends on where the families are. Wifi-N to motorola canopy to I have no clue. Doing wired or fiber seems remotely unpossible given the distances though. Heck, I know what they are going through even here in a transition area that is half suburb and half rural, being at the end of the powerpoles/phone string, we won't ever get decent consistent clean grid power (goes down 1-3 times a week, especially in the summer, mostly short time though, but it is *dirty* power all the time) nor any sort of DSL (dialup is it, but it works OK enough), even though this is a two lane blacktop and quite literally only 15 minutes to a walmart or office depot or all the other stores in town. You have to look at the developing world to see how they are doing it, and that is much more governmental involvement in pushing wireless tech and getting it out there, leapfrogging as you said last generation wired tech for both power and data transfer. In the US it seems to be hampered and locked down to a few huge for profit companies. No easy answer there other than I have the opinion that the public spectrum is a big fat lie and mostly not public and they won't let the regular public really do some interesting things, but they will let a few billion dollar companies-we'll call them the normal telco cartel- do interesting things.
The "your ancestors did X to my ancestors" crap only works for so many centuries. Was it wrong? Yes. Do I want to use my tax dollars to atone for it? No. Long story short: Get over it alerady
Singapore seems to thrive these days, and it's just one city. The US, at least in theory, is supposed to consist of 50 self governing states with a constitutionally guaranteed republican form of government. It would be a good system if we didn't have states and cities always looking to Washington for someone to pick up their garbage or drive their school buses.
Some organization of society works best at a local level.
The Dineh people ought to have encouragement to maintain their traditions while taking advantage of technology. I was first out in their area in 2004 and was impressed by how widely their homes are scattered. They seem perfect candidates to test out improved home wind power. The people I visited had switched from wind powered well pumps to solar, because the old Aero windmills were too hard to maintain.
You obviously don't know anything about the situation here in Arizona then. It's the opposite, the Navajo Nation maintains influence and exerts control over local governments, public opinion, the public university and the courts -- even the 9th circuit court in California. On of their main business/political endeavors has people believing that snowmaking is a violation of their religious freedom. The issue is causing our ski resort to not be able to modernize. Since the issue at hand in the TFA is about the modernization of the Navajo Nation why should anyone care? If they are willing to block modernization when it serves their interest then why should I lift a finger when they can't get free Internet anymore. Besides they played the we-don't-understand-technology-card already in this battle claiming that they did not review the ski resorts plans before approving the upgrades because they couldn't view them on a computer. Come to find out that anyone on the Res has free access to computers and the Internet. And it's exactly your assertion that "the powers that be maintain control" that allow this nonsense to happen. People try so hard to not be part of the big bad United States that in the past had very bad policies toward Natives. However, if the current situation was looked at objectively the general population in Northern Arizona would realize that the Navajo Nation and the other local tribes don't really have a problem with snowmaking. They simply want the competing ski resort to go out of business, so more people will visit the ski resort they do own. And, yup you guessed it, they make snow at their resort. Funny how that works out.
Win a signed Stephen Carpenter ESP Guitar from the Deftones: http://def-tag.com/?r=0008781
Catalonia is part of Spain. So, if they were pacifists, I'd say it didn't work out too well for them.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
at least he's not a Vogon.
Seems to me that something that calls itself a nation should be creating its own solutions instead of begging for handouts. Not much more of a nation than a gaming clan.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
You might want to look at what was highlighted - the PROVIDER is under investigation, not the tribe. It is the provider that is corrupt, the tribe (very likely) has no more technical knowledge or business acumen than any other non-technical non-corporate organization. ie: not much. This looks like a typical case of a business finding people who lack the necessary skills to evaluate a contract and decided to rip them off as much as possible before getting caught. Hell, I've worked for multinationals that are incapable of evaluating contracts and got themselves screwed over. If you can't expect Fortune 500 companies to bother reading what is written, just because of a fancy powerpoint presentation, can you seriously expect a community get-together to do better?
And how does all that differ from non-native people doing the same thing? If it were a farming community of white people would this even make the news? If you don't have hte skills, go out there and get them.
You would think with 250,000 people they would, well, do like everyone else - manage it and PAY for the services needed. Or better yet get a JOB and pay $140 per month for your own private link. Or even better yet, a small group of that 250,000 start up a Internet company and WORK to get the services they want at a price they can afford. This isn't the 1900's any more. $10/month from 250,000 is $30M a year, that is a lot of internet service.
From our experiences in Canada, it is just a bunch of natives whining for more handouts. They want, and normal society has to provide at no charge to them. Getting tiring actually.
So the modern European states should be paying X amount of dollars to the Celtics, Frisians, Basques and Cagot for land that was conquered? The Quechua and Aymara are owed something by the Europeans that settled there? And the waves upon waves of settlement across the South Pacific requires compensation to those who originally settle some time back in the stone age?
Somehow that ALL sounds really stupid. Stolen == conquered, just like any and every other nation on this world. You've been conquered. End of story. The difference is you've chosen the latest one as your cause and to ignore everything prior to that. You've drawn a line that is inconvenient for you to look past, but which is just as real.
Get yourself a textbook and learn the real history of this world. Go buy something like Guns Germs and Steel and find out about how all these native people took it away from someone else and someone before them. There is evidence showing that the Americas were settled in waves over other people that had come before. And now we took it from them and one day it will be our turn as well.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
Our own country eh? Sure we get to manage it... So long as the queen agrees.
Mind the frickin' laser...
While a FOSS solution might sound like an interesting plan the Navajo Indian Reservation is the largest reservation in the US,
The largest is the Navajo Reservation of some 16 million acres of land in Arizona, New Mexico, and Utah.
which you can see in this map(PDF warning).
They have few utilities which is a combination of the extreme size, distances between "settlements", poverty, cultural differences and good old fashioned greed. NPR ran a whole series about life on the reservation and the so-called border towns. Doing business on the reservation The mp3 on the linked page describes how the tribe (that now complains about the lack of connectivity and phone service) essentially blocked the installation of cell phone towers at nearly every turn; how the tribe wants to collect leases on the land of nearly twice what can be paid off the Rez.
TFA complains that 911 and other important services are not available or might not be available but that has almost always been the case. The Universal Service Fee that everyone pays is supposed to pay for running copper and extending these services to places that it doesn't "pay" for the phone companies to run wire to.
On top of that, anyone who wants to operate a business spends five years or more just for approval for a lease to operate on the land - and forget it if you're not Navajo. Anyone at all enterprising has to move off the reservation due to the crab bucket mentality.
Want a FOSS solution to all of this? The terrain is rugged, hills, etc. obstruct line of sight. That's the primary reason for satellite service. How about the OLPC project? How about the tribal government lower its barriers to business? Answer those questions and we can move forward.
---
From the border town of Flagstaff.
> Catalonia has never been a imperialistic nation.
From the article you quoted:
> The principality was formed by the union of many of the different counties which formed the Marca Hispanica during the reconquista under the rule of the Count of Barcelona. It was later unified dynastically in 1137 to the Crown of Aragon, of which it was an important member.
I can't even say that was a good try. The very mention of the above implies blood and steel. You're just choosing and picking what you want to believe in, like Catalonia is some fairy tale land with a magic castle and tinkerbells flying around where no man ever ruled over another with by the sword. Man up and be honest about what has happened. Don't dishonor those that died in that land at the hand of those that wanted power, including Iberians over other Iberians.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
The FCC. Even though they are a Nation, they aren't independent of all US laws. For instance, the FEDs can go in and arrest, trial on US laws, and convict someone then punish them for murder. It gets complicated but they aren't independent nations like France or Germany or something.
unbelieveable!
wtf, flamebait?
are the mods on crack again??
the significance of a signature is insignificant
I am sorry, but your still wrong. Catalonia was a Principality, not a Kingdom, there was no 'king of Catalonia', never, it could not exist, because of the tradiction of the land, that goes for millenia from anciens Iberians, to current catalonians.
In that tradition, the maximun power estament is the County, and between them one is choosed to represent the plurality of the land. In that case, the Count of Barcelona. But that count is not king over the population, it has to negotiate, between other counts and staments from the society.
The count of Barcelona managed to acquire the crown of adjacent Aragon kingdom, (they were severely menaced by the kingdoms of Castilla and Nafarroa, and turned to Catalonia for 'help', that the dinastycal liason you quoted), but this kingship does not resulted in aragonese culture or language anihilation, because the iberain political tradition has a strong bias towards agreements, not impositions.
So, go back to the first post, and read: first european parlament (from catalan 'parlar' 'to talk' in english), never imperialistic.
There was no 'other iberians' on the iberian peninsula, there were other peoples, other traditions, not other 'iberians'. It was some of those other cultures that managed to overpower iberians tribus, not the other way around.
Now, history is full of violence, true, iberians are not an exception, true, but they never tried to become an empire, enforcing a language or his own laws, overpowering other cultures or nations, that's a fact, and that was the thread starting point.
What's in a sig?
Government systems are similar to computer systems in many ways.
Its a problem of scalability and fault tolerance. Scale too large and the government is more susceptible to corruption and monopoly-style abuse...(wink)
A failed government only harms the people who let it fail and to some degree other nations; the more centralized the more damage caused (which combined with the scalability problem means it will also fail more often.)
As far as finding enemies-- humans are great at finding 'outsiders' to dehumanize even if the distinction is completely fictional. There are too many people and too far apart to ever counter it (even then that isn't a full solution.)
A world of godless CLONES would break into groups and find/invent things to fight about.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
"How hard is it to run a kosher bidding process?"
You haven't ever tried to find a rabbi on an Indian Reservation, have you?
Bring back Sirius Punk!
I wouldn't say that the "crab bucket mentality" is what's primarily keeping enterprising individuals from staying on the reservation. The quality of primary education is quite bad, and most young people go into the military because they can't afford or don't know about higher education opportunities, leave the rez for work, or end up jobless if they decide to stay with their people and their culture. So even if you could create a working business model that accounted for the high overhead of having a business on the reservation, there aren't any knowledge workers to operate your business. Furthermore, you can't recruit non-Navajo workers from off the reservation because of "Navajo preference" in hiring, and the fact that you can't realistically live outside of government housing compounds restricted to employees of the schools and hospitals.
I don't mean to act as if your entire post was wrong, because it isn't. The tribal government is definitely messed up in more ways than just business policy. But I'd be careful in blaming the people themselves for the dearth of opportunity on the reservation. The Navajo I know encourage "learning from the white man, but coming back to help [their] people". Unfortunately it's extremely difficult to make a living even if you're educated. How can jealousy of other's entrepreneurial success be a significant factor when there's very little entrepreneurial success to speak of?
I have to point out that Iceland has NOT been a 'genuine democracy since 930 AD.' It was largely under the control of the king of Norway or Denmark since the Middle Ages. It only achieved true independence in 1944.
---- "XML is like violence. If it doesn't fix the problem, you aren't using enough."
Um, I have to disagree with you on this. Mexico (and presumably other more equatorial Latin American countries {almost definitely Venezuela}) have more natural resources per area than the United States does but are a lot poorer. As someone mentioned above, Iceland is, on average, wealthier than the United States is, but it lacks a lot of desirable natural resources (besides coastline, fishes, and geothermal vents). If anything, this data shows an inverse correlation between natural wealth and total wealth. Eric Raymond discussed this issue in his essay Fear and Loathing in Caracas.
---- "XML is like violence. If it doesn't fix the problem, you aren't using enough."
I owned an ISP in NorthEast Arizona, right up against the Navajo nation...we attempted to do business with them, but the tribal elders were very corrupt. They wanted a kickback on EVERY tower/user we added on their land. This is why no large ISPs, such as Time Warner, etc. will not even mess with them. They are a very good people, very nice, and very humble and at the same time very resourceful. They will figure something out, as long as they are forced to.
"My immediate reaction is "WTF? What kind of moron doesn't make things 64-bit safe to begin with?" Linus
Why do the American Indians need the internet anyway? Heck, they invented "smoke signals." Why can't they continue to use that?
You have a point, but something about this line of thinking stinks. I supposed it's that it seems more like an excuse to avoid feeling compelled to help people who have gotten the short end of the stick. It just perpetuates the "sucks to be you" culture that's especially prevalent in the US. We should just be as greedy as possible, ignoring the plight of anyone else. Some people call it the "culture of independence", but I just think it's a lack of compassion.
Furthermore, when are we going to consider conquering people as an unacceptable practice? If we don't take responsibility for recent actions of this sort, there's no precedent for the future on how governments should act. If you think our government is above this now, consider the fact that we're occupying two countries as we speak...er...type. Different circumstances, sure, but the same solution.
Perhaps we still are just apes with big brains.
How can jealousy of other's entrepreneurial success be a significant factor when there's very little entrepreneurial success to speak of?
That's why there is little entrepreneurial success.
I know a woman who opened a laundromat. It took her around five years to get it approved and opened. A couple of years later, she wanted to open a second laundromat and faced the exact same hurdles even though she could show that her business model was a successful one. Most people would just give up. You can't complain that there are no opportunities, yet stifle any attempt to better yourself.
When I brought up the crab bucket mentality, I was basing that on a conversation that I had with a woman who had moved off the reservation with her husband. They were doing fairly well making and selling jewelery. They bought a house. They purchased health insurance because they didn't want to depend on Indian Health Services since they traveled frequently and they felt they could get better care outside of the IHS network. When family members heard about the health insurance they were admonished to drop the coverage because, "you're not better than us". The gist of the conversation that I had with her boiled down to if they couldn't buy insurance for the whole tribe then they shouldn't buy it at all.
Tangent: Navajos and Health care is a strange thing. Where I work we are all covered by private health care (BCBS) and most of the employees make ~$13+/hr. They will take an entire day off of work to drive 50 miles each way to the IHS clinic where they won't have to pay instead of go to a doctor in town and pay their $25.00 deductible (and not have to miss any work)
Back on the original topic: an OSS type solution might work. The reason satellite is currently used is because of the vast amount of land that needs to be covered and the huge distances between users. Putting wireless repeaters on the top of power poles that run along the main roads (where there is actual copper) coupled with OLPC style ad-hoc repeaters and even adding something like the Brisbane Mesh could work. It would require serious buy-in from the powers that be and it would need to require the tribal government to do something. As it stands now, they don't pay their own bill; it's a grant from the FCC, according to TA. This is another problem for them. There is a sense of entitlement that's pervasive. Again, I point back to the "Doing Business" segment. When an on reservation cell tower demands twice the lease what an off reservation tower would run it makes it difficult to justify doing business on the reservation. Running even, or even below, the lease cost of an off reservation tower would be the smartest thing to do if your goal is to provide more coverage to your residents. Cell phone companies are in business to make a profit. It doesn't pay anyone if they cannot afford to maintain the towers on the Rez or if they end up hemorrhaging money and go out of business.
This internet billing dispute has been running for a year now, it's not like the network went dark overnight. They've had a year to think about a different solution, which could include the tribe actually paying for their own satellite connection, instead of the FCC grant. It's not as if the satellite providing service fell out of the sky. Heck, they could even negotiate with the cell phone company that eventually put up towers to throw a wireless repeater on top of the existing towers and create their own mesh network.
The summary asks
While the business mechanisms play themselves into the expected ludicrous snarl, the real question may be: Is there a place for an inexpensive ham/technogeek/FOSS solution that could bypass the antics of the for-pay providers?
Perhaps. The real answer may be along the lines of the old joke, How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? Just one, but the bulb has to want to change.
Why not cut off our tongues, so they we may not bear witness against you! Put our tongue with the rest of your spoils of war against us!
Be careful white man! For The Great Spirit, father of all words, hath warned you whom call yourselves Christian, And has promised the free people; their Land, The land of The Free! will again be free,
Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you. For, lo, I raise up the Chaldean's, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwelling places that are not theirs. They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.[KJV HABAKKUK 1:5-6-7.]
Is It not Written:
Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? [MATTHEW 12:25-26.]
It won't! It is already falling appart!
Most people would just give up. You can't complain that there are no opportunities, yet stifle any attempt to better yourself.
So then I presume she didn't give up? I don't mean to drag this out, but isn't it kind of bad to use a contrary example in an attempt to prove your point? And actually this doesn't even do that. There's nothing here about this lady encountering jealousy from fellow Navajo.
When I brought up the crab bucket mentality, I was basing that on a conversation that I had with a woman who had moved off the reservation with her husband. [...] When family members heard about the health insurance they were admonished to drop the coverage because, "you're not better than us".
Unfortunately this example has nothing to do with entrepreneurial hurdles. I'm not saying the Navajo are saints. I'm sure there is plenty of jealousy for those Navajo that leave and become successful. But I lived on the reservation for over three years and saw much stronger factors than jealousy with respect to why the economy is practically non-existent.
They will take an entire day off of work to drive 50 miles each way to the IHS clinic where they won't have to pay instead of go to a doctor in town and pay their $25.00 deductible (and not have to miss any work)
I agree that that's a bit extreme from a financial point of view. I would recommend holding judgment without knowing their reasons, though. For example, this could be simply because they are more comfortable with the staff at that particular hospital. The Navajo tend to be reserved when first meeting people (especially outsiders), but once they know you they often treat you like family. Or it could be they'd prefer not to go to a "white man" hospital. I'm not condoning xenophobia like that, but after the way they've been treated I'm not surprised. Many of them still visit the medicine man.
Back on the original topic: an OSS type solution might work. [...] It would require serious buy-in from the powers that be and it would need to require the tribal government to do something.
Aside from the lack of technical workers to maintain the system and limited funding, I agree the next biggest hurdle is the tribal government. And that's pretty much the story for any infrastructure issue on the rez.
This is another problem for them. There is a sense of entitlement that's pervasive.
At risk of sounding like an apologist, I again have to suggest an open mind here. Considering that the federal government has rarely (if ever) come through on it's treaty obligations with the tribe, I'm not surprised nor would I look down on any Navajo for having such an attitude.
That said, they are trying to become more independent. There's at least one hospital that is either planning to or already has weened itself from federal funding because the Navajo in general do desire to be independent. Of course there is wide skepticism as to whether they could possibly afford it given the economic situation on the rez, but they are trying.
They've had a year to think about a different solution, which could include the tribe actually paying for their own satellite connection, instead of the FCC grant.
I can't argue with this. I think anybody with any knowledge of the rez knows the government is a bureaucratic nightmare. But again, I don't think it's fair to just chalk it up to personal failings of the residents. Like any poverty stricken population, poor management of infrastructure is a common symptom.
Perhaps. The real answer may be along the lines of the old joke, How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? Just one, but the bulb has to want to change.
You mean, "Just one, but the bulb has to want to assimilate into a culture that was forced upon it".
Betcha the ISP is DishNetee/WildBluie/EchoStarved. Probably violated the excessive use policy you know, too many Gb in any 30 day period. Probably the Nation will have to continue to pay anyway, because, them pesky customers want to continue using the internet,,, and even if they dont use the ISP will collect anyway.
I would posit that a probable solution would include those who have utilities now:
Some if not all of these will have people that can do the work. Add the self-contained wireless devices from OLPC (can't help but continue to point to them. They are extending internet access to the third world which many parts of the Rez resemble) and there is a potential solution.
NACA is managing to get things done by avoiding the tribal government, but I don't think this can be accomplished without buy-in from Window Rock.
At risk of sounding like an apologist, I again have to suggest an open mind here. Considering that the federal government has rarely (if ever) come through on it's treaty obligations with the tribe, I'm not surprised nor would I look down on any Navajo for having such an attitude.
By that logic, they should have a lower expectation that someone else is going to take care of them, not more.
You mean, "Just one, but the bulb has to want to assimilate into a culture that was forced upon it".
I meant and still do mean that if they want anything to be different they have to take steps to make the change. Word it however you want, "The lord helps those who help themselves," if that makes it any better.
I was going to address xenophobia, but I don't think it adds to the conversation.
I've lived here for over 15 years. My family has been here for ~50 years. I'm writing what I have seen and continue to see both from my perspective as an employer, as the son and grandson of "white traders" as well as someone who ran the Rez for a couple of years myself. The successes are people who have had to fight "their own" tooth and nail just for a chance.
I'm certainly not trying to get into a pissing match with you, but my understanding was that, for starters, you had to be Navajo to hold office on the rez. Am I mistaken or am I misinterpreting what you mean by "ran the Rez"?
Some if not all of these will have people that can do the work.
Point taken. Also, Fort Defiance hospital had a functioning WiFi network as well as IP phone capabilities extended to the housing compound, so I'm assuming there are Navajo around that can handle WiFi repeaters.
NACA is managing to get things done by avoiding the tribal government, but I don't think this can be accomplished without buy-in from Window Rock.
I'd agree with that. Having one site wired (or not wired as the case may be) for internet is one thing. Getting permission for placing WAN infrastructure no matter how minimally intrusive can't circumvent the government. At some point you'd have to access a telephone pole or something.
By that logic, they should have a lower expectation that someone else is going to take care of them, not more.
Certainly there are people who take this train of thought, but I know for certain there are others who feel like they should milk the feds for anything they can get on account of the fact that the feds continuously screw them over.
I meant and still do mean that if they want anything to be different they have to take steps to make the change. Word it however you want, "The lord helps those who help themselves," if that makes it any better.
I understand, but it's a bit unfair to expect them to want change if that means becoming more like the white man. In other words, they may be disinclined to change in the direction of bettering themselves if it means assimilating to white culture.
I was going to address xenophobia, but I don't think it adds to the conversation.
Well you brought it up, so now I'm curious. ;-)
I'm certainly not trying to get into a pissing match with you, but my understanding was that, for starters, you had to be Navajo to hold office on the rez. Am I mistaken or am I misinterpreting what you mean by "ran the Rez"?
As in Rez runner. Not the highest hits, but I did business on the reservation. Nothing to do with government.
I'd agree with that. Having one site wired (or not wired as the case may be) for internet is one thing. Getting permission for placing WAN infrastructure no matter how minimally intrusive can't circumvent the government. At some point you'd have to access a telephone pole or something.
I don't think the telephone poles belong to the government, they belong to the utility company which might make it harder to do.
Technologically speaking adding a WAP to the Post Office at the Gap (which has a pay phone so it has copper) with repeaters up and down the road is dead simple. Adding a point to point to the Gap Chapter house is dead simple. The summary and subsequent posts have asked, "can't FOSS do something?" The answer is a qualified yes. But no one is going to do it with a single run of fiber as the original GP suggested. It's either satellite which they don't pay for or it's a solution that will require some kind of equity - sweat or cash. It's a solution that will require the government either step in or get out of the way. If the government chooses to step aside then maybe the people themselves can do something. Postulating from the sidelines will not accomplish anything unless some industrious Diné steps in.
By your, umm, logic, hardly anyone on the planet merits a description as a native resident.
Precisely. Calling anyone "native" is an idiotic PC formulation. As for who got here first, who the hell cares?
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
As for myself, I think people need to buck up and stop taking offense when it was not intended. There is nothing offensive about Columbus making a navigational error and thinking he was in "West India."
What is offensive to me is false outrage, something the left specializes in.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
1. Read your own .sig
Read your obituary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
60 miles of single mode is to get Tier 1 access "onto" the rez.
Via ATM, Asynchronous Transfer Mode, SONET would be too high.
Once the Tier-1 access has been extended to the central portion
of the Rez they already have the wired infrastructure hooked
up to the centralized satellite system they have been using.
Aerial fiber is easier than buried fiber, but is susceptible
to outages due to ice storms, etc etc.
Buried is risky if the population of fiber seeking backhoe is high.
If a cable TV company can do it, the tribe can contract someone to
do it in a matter of a few weeks.
I promise you they are paying a butt load for that satellite
and I bet the latency for real time apps sucks.
If 10% of the tribe signed up at dial up prices, ie. $20/mo.
they could $48,000 a month approx. coming in and it would
cover the cost of the OC-3.
They could block p2p, newsgroups, and IRC to save lots of bandwidth.
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
They can still lead Hollywood to some of the finest, most desolate environments on Earth. For a fee of course. Maybe the fee should include a fiber hookup. Eventually Hollywood will want enough access to grant it.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Once the Tier-1 access has been extended to the central portion of the Rez they already have the wired infrastructure hooked up to the centralized satellite system they have been using.
The infrastructure is the existing satellite receivers coupled with the solar panels to power them. They are not connected together other than via satellite.
If a cable TV company can do it, the tribe can contract someone to do it in a matter of a few weeks.
Even if you are right about how long it would take once approved, that's a five year plus approval process. The Rez is a tough place to try to do business.
I promise you they are paying a butt load for that satellite and I bet the latency for real time apps sucks. If 10% of the tribe signed up at dial up prices, ie. $20/mo. they could $48,000 a month approx. coming in and it would cover the cost of the OC-3.
Well, someone is paying for it, but the Tribe is not.
Again, the 60 mile figure was used to indicate how far some people have to drive to get to the next available net connection (the nearest non reservation town). They were also using the satellite service for VOIP indicating that there isn't an existing phone infrastructure. If you've ever visited the Rez you understand this. You can travel for over an hour without a cell signal.
I don't dispute your numbers, but I think the hurdles are higher than the article would indicate. This is like wiring the rain forest or the Australian outback.
Point taken.
On the other hand, in cases like the WTC screwup, the main problem is because they have something like 7 stakeholders all arguing over every detail - true bureaucracy at work. I talked to the VP of one of the private project managers there and they were pissed off at the amount of money being wasted.
Well in the case of the former USSR countries kinda, the policy became that they were unwilling to hold on to them by force. Course with all the armed men who hadn't been getting their paychecks for some time it wasn't all that peaceful.
Australia formed peacefully compared to most countries.
For that matter how peaceful do you think Icelands formation was, all the little villages just rolled over and declared one guy king for no reason?
The question then becomes, what countries were really formed in a peaceful manner and the answer seems to be "none"