Navajo Nation Losing Internet Access

An anonymous reader writes "Due to contracts that are allegedly FUBAR, and associated wrangling, the Navajo Nation is being cut off by its satellite ISP. This is the final stage of the process, which already deprived chapter houses of access last April. While the business mechanisms play themselves into the expected ludicrous snarl, the real question may be: Is there a place for an inexpensive ham/technogeek/FOSS solution that could bypass the antics of the for-pay providers?"

Comments

Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you asking for a free internet solution....?

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[Innominandum]

Everybody wants something for free.

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you asking for a free internet solution....?

Pretty much, yes.

Is that really too much to ask from the Open Source pixie dust?

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[Ex-MislTech]

It is 60 miles to the nearest town with net access.

So I will venture that town has fiber.

Fiber can be run close to 200 miles without a line amp.

A cpl of Asynchronous Xfer Mode cards for each end are a
few hundred bucks, and some older refurb Cisco gear and
your good to go.

An OC-3 in the town 60 miles away from the local
carrier will cost less than $10,000/mo. and give them
155 Mbps that they can hookup to a Squid Box to
use as caching mechanism to save on xmitting the
same data twice to two different hosts.

Local cable TV companies ran their fiber in aerial protected
cabling with a strength enhancing strand down the center.

When you consider how much aerial fiber the cable companies
ran in major cities, I'd say it is easily doable.

The Navajo should contract it out.

For 2.25 billion I dare say they could do their own Coop ISP
like some other ppl have done around the US.

http://www.coop.net/

And when they run it run multi-strand in case one fiber pair
has issues at some point in the future.

In fact I bet as a PR stunt Cisco would come out and profile
the whole setup for them.

Just my two cents...

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[Ex-MislTech]

Correction the OC-3 costs around $40,000/mo.

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[Ex-MislTech]

For some reason my mind swapped price of T-3 and OC-3.

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[Frogbert]

Worst. Poem. Ever.

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[mitgib]

You have alot of interesting stuff here, but off the beaten path of what is being asked I think.

What the Navajo Nation is needing is Tier 1 access, or in the alternative, as suggested by the article, become a Tier 1 provider. I think within the reservation, using high power (50W) access points upon hill and mountain tops to wirelessly distribute to the end points would actually be a worthwhile solution, close to what 802.11 was designed for, then link the access points wirelessly again with a point to multi point backbone as they should all have line of site of each other. Now it is just a matter of getting it connected to the net. And from the geographic location of the reservation, and them needing to be their own provider, a DS3 to San Jose and Dallas or Chicago to peer at the NAPS. I don't think the big boys will be anal about peering with their community at the NAPS like they are with peering with other for-profit providers.

I peered at the Ameritec NAP through most of the 90's in Chicago and was able to pass most of my traffic there, over 50%, as a for profit provider, so MCI/Sprint/UUNet wouldn't peer with our network, but would gladly sell transit over the NAP, which would give the Navajo the option if needed. Reading TFA doesn't make clear if the Navajo or the USAC budget is $2.25b/yr, but I'm going to assume the USAC budget is that, so what I've suggested and what the Navajo budget are still might be within the costs on an ongoing basis of what their contract with OnSat was costing, and much better service, but the initial hardware cost might be out of reach for them

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[mollymoo]

2.25 billion is the budget for the entire USAC, which supports a whole lot more than just the Navajo's interwebs.

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[Anonymous Coward]

And why would anyone do business with a dirty, corrupt government? One of the challenges with applying modern business to a prehistoric governance is that, like roughly all tribal people, they have a strongman concept of governance, and that makes honest business dealings pretty much ... well, impossible.

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[whoda]

In fact I bet as a PR stunt Cisco would come out and profile the whole setup for them.

I bet you Cisco couldn't give a rats ass about doing any PR stuff for this situation.

What's the wager?

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Two points.

1. Read your own .sig

2. For some reason my mind swapped price of T-3 and OC-3.

Let's just say you can't spell OCD without OC.

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[antibryce]

at least he's not a Vogon.

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[pfleming]

Except that the 60 mile figure is more of a radius not a line of sight when you are talking about the Navajo Reservation. A fiber run might serve a dozen people, maybe as many as 100. Cost wise that is not feasible.
While a FOSS solution might sound like an interesting plan the Navajo Indian Reservation is the largest reservation in the US,

The largest is the Navajo Reservation of some 16 million acres of land in Arizona, New Mexico, and Utah.

which you can see in this map(PDF warning).
They have few utilities which is a combination of the extreme size, distances between "settlements", poverty, cultural differences and good old fashioned greed. NPR ran a whole series about life on the reservation and the so-called border towns. Doing business on the reservation The mp3 on the linked page describes how the tribe (that now complains about the lack of connectivity and phone service) essentially blocked the installation of cell phone towers at nearly every turn; how the tribe wants to collect leases on the land of nearly twice what can be paid off the Rez.
TFA complains that 911 and other important services are not available or might not be available but that has almost always been the case. The Universal Service Fee that everyone pays is supposed to pay for running copper and extending these services to places that it doesn't "pay" for the phone companies to run wire to.
On top of that, anyone who wants to operate a business spends five years or more just for approval for a lease to operate on the land - and forget it if you're not Navajo. Anyone at all enterprising has to move off the reservation due to the crab bucket mentality.
Want a FOSS solution to all of this? The terrain is rugged, hills, etc. obstruct line of sight. That's the primary reason for satellite service. How about the OLPC project? How about the tribal government lower its barriers to business? Answer those questions and we can move forward.
---
From the border town of Flagstaff.

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[MuffinSpawn]

I wouldn't say that the "crab bucket mentality" is what's primarily keeping enterprising individuals from staying on the reservation. The quality of primary education is quite bad, and most young people go into the military because they can't afford or don't know about higher education opportunities, leave the rez for work, or end up jobless if they decide to stay with their people and their culture. So even if you could create a working business model that accounted for the high overhead of having a business on the reservation, there aren't any knowledge workers to operate your business. Furthermore, you can't recruit non-Navajo workers from off the reservation because of "Navajo preference" in hiring, and the fact that you can't realistically live outside of government housing compounds restricted to employees of the schools and hospitals.

I don't mean to act as if your entire post was wrong, because it isn't. The tribal government is definitely messed up in more ways than just business policy. But I'd be careful in blaming the people themselves for the dearth of opportunity on the reservation. The Navajo I know encourage "learning from the white man, but coming back to help [their] people". Unfortunately it's extremely difficult to make a living even if you're educated. How can jealousy of other's entrepreneurial success be a significant factor when there's very little entrepreneurial success to speak of?

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[pfleming]

How can jealousy of other's entrepreneurial success be a significant factor when there's very little entrepreneurial success to speak of?

That's why there is little entrepreneurial success.
I know a woman who opened a laundromat. It took her around five years to get it approved and opened. A couple of years later, she wanted to open a second laundromat and faced the exact same hurdles even though she could show that her business model was a successful one. Most people would just give up. You can't complain that there are no opportunities, yet stifle any attempt to better yourself.
When I brought up the crab bucket mentality, I was basing that on a conversation that I had with a woman who had moved off the reservation with her husband. They were doing fairly well making and selling jewelery. They bought a house. They purchased health insurance because they didn't want to depend on Indian Health Services since they traveled frequently and they felt they could get better care outside of the IHS network. When family members heard about the health insurance they were admonished to drop the coverage because, "you're not better than us". The gist of the conversation that I had with her boiled down to if they couldn't buy insurance for the whole tribe then they shouldn't buy it at all.
Tangent: Navajos and Health care is a strange thing. Where I work we are all covered by private health care (BCBS) and most of the employees make ~$13+/hr. They will take an entire day off of work to drive 50 miles each way to the IHS clinic where they won't have to pay instead of go to a doctor in town and pay their $25.00 deductible (and not have to miss any work)
Back on the original topic: an OSS type solution might work. The reason satellite is currently used is because of the vast amount of land that needs to be covered and the huge distances between users. Putting wireless repeaters on the top of power poles that run along the main roads (where there is actual copper) coupled with OLPC style ad-hoc repeaters and even adding something like the Brisbane Mesh could work. It would require serious buy-in from the powers that be and it would need to require the tribal government to do something. As it stands now, they don't pay their own bill; it's a grant from the FCC, according to TA. This is another problem for them. There is a sense of entitlement that's pervasive. Again, I point back to the "Doing Business" segment. When an on reservation cell tower demands twice the lease what an off reservation tower would run it makes it difficult to justify doing business on the reservation. Running even, or even below, the lease cost of an off reservation tower would be the smartest thing to do if your goal is to provide more coverage to your residents. Cell phone companies are in business to make a profit. It doesn't pay anyone if they cannot afford to maintain the towers on the Rez or if they end up hemorrhaging money and go out of business.
This internet billing dispute has been running for a year now, it's not like the network went dark overnight. They've had a year to think about a different solution, which could include the tribe actually paying for their own satellite connection, instead of the FCC grant. It's not as if the satellite providing service fell out of the sky. Heck, they could even negotiate with the cell phone company that eventually put up towers to throw a wireless repeater on top of the existing towers and create their own mesh network.
The summary asks

While the business mechanisms play themselves into the expected ludicrous snarl, the real question may be: Is there a place for an inexpensive ham/technogeek/FOSS solution that could bypass the antics of the for-pay providers?

Perhaps. The real answer may be along the lines of the old joke, How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? Just one, but the bulb has to want to change.

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[MuffinSpawn]

Most people would just give up. You can't complain that there are no opportunities, yet stifle any attempt to better yourself.

So then I presume she didn't give up? I don't mean to drag this out, but isn't it kind of bad to use a contrary example in an attempt to prove your point? And actually this doesn't even do that. There's nothing here about this lady encountering jealousy from fellow Navajo.

When I brought up the crab bucket mentality, I was basing that on a conversation that I had with a woman who had moved off the reservation with her husband. [...] When family members heard about the health insurance they were admonished to drop the coverage because, "you're not better than us".

Unfortunately this example has nothing to do with entrepreneurial hurdles. I'm not saying the Navajo are saints. I'm sure there is plenty of jealousy for those Navajo that leave and become successful. But I lived on the reservation for over three years and saw much stronger factors than jealousy with respect to why the economy is practically non-existent.

They will take an entire day off of work to drive 50 miles each way to the IHS clinic where they won't have to pay instead of go to a doctor in town and pay their $25.00 deductible (and not have to miss any work)

I agree that that's a bit extreme from a financial point of view. I would recommend holding judgment without knowing their reasons, though. For example, this could be simply because they are more comfortable with the staff at that particular hospital. The Navajo tend to be reserved when first meeting people (especially outsiders), but once they know you they often treat you like family. Or it could be they'd prefer not to go to a "white man" hospital. I'm not condoning xenophobia like that, but after the way they've been treated I'm not surprised. Many of them still visit the medicine man.

Back on the original topic: an OSS type solution might work. [...] It would require serious buy-in from the powers that be and it would need to require the tribal government to do something.

Aside from the lack of technical workers to maintain the system and limited funding, I agree the next biggest hurdle is the tribal government. And that's pretty much the story for any infrastructure issue on the rez.

This is another problem for them. There is a sense of entitlement that's pervasive.

At risk of sounding like an apologist, I again have to suggest an open mind here. Considering that the federal government has rarely (if ever) come through on it's treaty obligations with the tribe, I'm not surprised nor would I look down on any Navajo for having such an attitude.

That said, they are trying to become more independent. There's at least one hospital that is either planning to or already has weened itself from federal funding because the Navajo in general do desire to be independent. Of course there is wide skepticism as to whether they could possibly afford it given the economic situation on the rez, but they are trying.

They've had a year to think about a different solution, which could include the tribe actually paying for their own satellite connection, instead of the FCC grant.

I can't argue with this. I think anybody with any knowledge of the rez knows the government is a bureaucratic nightmare. But again, I don't think it's fair to just chalk it up to personal failings of the residents. Like any poverty stricken population, poor management of infrastructure is a common symptom.

Perhaps. The real answer may be along the lines of the old joke, How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? Just one, but the bulb has to want to change.

You mean, "Just one, but the bulb has to want to assimilate into a culture that was forced upon it".

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[pfleming]

I've lived here for over 15 years. My family has been here for ~50 years. I'm writing what I have seen and continue to see both from my perspective as an employer, as the son and grandson of "white traders" as well as someone who ran the Rez for a couple of years myself. The successes are people who have had to fight "their own" tooth and nail just for a chance.

Back on the original topic: an OSS type solution might work. [...] It would require serious buy-in from the powers that be and it would need to require the tribal government to do something.

Aside from the lack of technical workers to maintain the system and limited funding, I agree the next biggest hurdle is the tribal government. And that's pretty much the story for any infrastructure issue on the rez.

I would posit that a probable solution would include those who have utilities now:

• The Grey Mountain Inn
• Speedy's
• Cameron Trading Post
• Tuba City High School

Some if not all of these will have people that can do the work. Add the self-contained wireless devices from OLPC (can't help but continue to point to them. They are extending internet access to the third world which many parts of the Rez resemble) and there is a potential solution.
NACA is managing to get things done by avoiding the tribal government, but I don't think this can be accomplished without buy-in from Window Rock.

At risk of sounding like an apologist, I again have to suggest an open mind here. Considering that the federal government has rarely (if ever) come through on it's treaty obligations with the tribe, I'm not surprised nor would I look down on any Navajo for having such an attitude.

By that logic, they should have a lower expectation that someone else is going to take care of them, not more.

You mean, "Just one, but the bulb has to want to assimilate into a culture that was forced upon it".

I meant and still do mean that if they want anything to be different they have to take steps to make the change. Word it however you want, "The lord helps those who help themselves," if that makes it any better.
I was going to address xenophobia, but I don't think it adds to the conversation.

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[MuffinSpawn]

I've lived here for over 15 years. My family has been here for ~50 years. I'm writing what I have seen and continue to see both from my perspective as an employer, as the son and grandson of "white traders" as well as someone who ran the Rez for a couple of years myself. The successes are people who have had to fight "their own" tooth and nail just for a chance.

I'm certainly not trying to get into a pissing match with you, but my understanding was that, for starters, you had to be Navajo to hold office on the rez. Am I mistaken or am I misinterpreting what you mean by "ran the Rez"?

Some if not all of these will have people that can do the work.

Point taken. Also, Fort Defiance hospital had a functioning WiFi network as well as IP phone capabilities extended to the housing compound, so I'm assuming there are Navajo around that can handle WiFi repeaters.

NACA is managing to get things done by avoiding the tribal government, but I don't think this can be accomplished without buy-in from Window Rock.

I'd agree with that. Having one site wired (or not wired as the case may be) for internet is one thing. Getting permission for placing WAN infrastructure no matter how minimally intrusive can't circumvent the government. At some point you'd have to access a telephone pole or something.

By that logic, they should have a lower expectation that someone else is going to take care of them, not more.

Certainly there are people who take this train of thought, but I know for certain there are others who feel like they should milk the feds for anything they can get on account of the fact that the feds continuously screw them over.

I meant and still do mean that if they want anything to be different they have to take steps to make the change. Word it however you want, "The lord helps those who help themselves," if that makes it any better.

I understand, but it's a bit unfair to expect them to want change if that means becoming more like the white man. In other words, they may be disinclined to change in the direction of bettering themselves if it means assimilating to white culture.

I was going to address xenophobia, but I don't think it adds to the conversation.

Well you brought it up, so now I'm curious. ;-)

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[pfleming]

I'm certainly not trying to get into a pissing match with you, but my understanding was that, for starters, you had to be Navajo to hold office on the rez. Am I mistaken or am I misinterpreting what you mean by "ran the Rez"?

As in Rez runner. Not the highest hits, but I did business on the reservation. Nothing to do with government.

I'd agree with that. Having one site wired (or not wired as the case may be) for internet is one thing. Getting permission for placing WAN infrastructure no matter how minimally intrusive can't circumvent the government. At some point you'd have to access a telephone pole or something.

I don't think the telephone poles belong to the government, they belong to the utility company which might make it harder to do.
Technologically speaking adding a WAP to the Post Office at the Gap (which has a pay phone so it has copper) with repeaters up and down the road is dead simple. Adding a point to point to the Gap Chapter house is dead simple. The summary and subsequent posts have asked, "can't FOSS do something?" The answer is a qualified yes. But no one is going to do it with a single run of fiber as the original GP suggested. It's either satellite which they don't pay for or it's a solution that will require some kind of equity - sweat or cash. It's a solution that will require the government either step in or get out of the way. If the government chooses to step aside then maybe the people themselves can do something. Postulating from the sidelines will not accomplish anything unless some industrious Diné steps in.

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[Ex-MislTech]

1. Read your own .sig

Read your obituary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[Ex-MislTech]

60 miles of single mode is to get Tier 1 access "onto" the rez.

Via ATM, Asynchronous Transfer Mode, SONET would be too high.

Once the Tier-1 access has been extended to the central portion
of the Rez they already have the wired infrastructure hooked
up to the centralized satellite system they have been using.

Aerial fiber is easier than buried fiber, but is susceptible
to outages due to ice storms, etc etc.

Buried is risky if the population of fiber seeking backhoe is high.

If a cable TV company can do it, the tribe can contract someone to
do it in a matter of a few weeks.

I promise you they are paying a butt load for that satellite
and I bet the latency for real time apps sucks.

If 10% of the tribe signed up at dial up prices, ie. $20/mo.
they could $48,000 a month approx. coming in and it would
cover the cost of the OC-3.

They could block p2p, newsgroups, and IRC to save lots of bandwidth.

Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...?

[pfleming]

Once the Tier-1 access has been extended to the central portion of the Rez they already have the wired infrastructure hooked up to the centralized satellite system they have been using.

The infrastructure is the existing satellite receivers coupled with the solar panels to power them. They are not connected together other than via satellite.

If a cable TV company can do it, the tribe can contract someone to do it in a matter of a few weeks.

Even if you are right about how long it would take once approved, that's a five year plus approval process. The Rez is a tough place to try to do business.

I promise you they are paying a butt load for that satellite and I bet the latency for real time apps sucks. If 10% of the tribe signed up at dial up prices, ie. $20/mo. they could $48,000 a month approx. coming in and it would cover the cost of the OC-3.

Well, someone is paying for it, but the Tribe is not.
Again, the 60 mile figure was used to indicate how far some people have to drive to get to the next available net connection (the nearest non reservation town). They were also using the satellite service for VOIP indicating that there isn't an existing phone infrastructure. If you've ever visited the Rez you understand this. You can travel for over an hour without a cell signal.
I don't dispute your numbers, but I think the hurdles are higher than the article would indicate. This is like wiring the rain forest or the Australian outback.

Free access for injuns

[Anonymous Coward]

just like the raven spirit provided in the days before the paleface

Re:Free access for injuns

[eat here_get gas]

unbelieveable!

wtf, flamebait?

are the mods on crack again??

Government as usual

[HBI]

Totally insensitive to the actual reprecussions of their actions, some GS weenie, probably balding and fat and fearful of doing anything constructive to solve problems because it might screw up his/her next stepping increase in the future, consigns thousands of people to being offline.

Government just doesn't really work.

Re:Government as usual

[Ignis Flatus]

just call it "Homeland Security" and it'll take care of itself

Re:Government as usual

[Skeetskeetskeet]

Yeah, look at Congress..they take the entire month of August off and tell the rest of us struggling with the price of gas to fuck off.

Re:Government as usual

[bconway]

Perhaps they could pay for their own Internet access. Like, ya know, everyone else.

Re:Government as usual

[TubeSteak]

Totally insensitive to the actual reprecussions of their actions, some GS weenie, probably balding and fat and fearful of doing anything constructive to solve problems because it might screw up his/her next stepping increase in the future, consigns thousands of people to being offline.

Government just doesn't really work.

You might want to RTFA a second time.

USAC, which administers billions of dollars in FCC grants every year to provide Internet service to rural areas and low-income consumers, is refusing to continue funding after an audit by the tribal government revealed questions over payments by the Navajos to their Internet provider, OnSat. As a result, another company, SES Americom, which provides satellite services to OnSat, is scheduled to pull the plug today.

USAC says the provider is under investigation, after the audit raised questions about the bidding process and possible overpayment. But the provider rejects the findings and plans to fight them in tribal court.

Surprise surprise, there was a corrupted bidding process overseen by an Native American Tribe.

Unfortunately, many of the Native American Tribes have poor &/or corrupt governance, none of which is the fault of the U.S. Government. If the Tribe was really serious about resolving the issue, they would conduct the quickest inquiry ever and do everything possible to create immediate reforms in order to regain the confidence of the USAC.

BTW - the USAC is a non-profit corporation, so they're not technically part of the US Gov't

Re:Government as usual

[jlarocco]

Unfortunately, many of the Native American Tribes have poor &/or corrupt governance,

Is tribal governance not handled by some kind of tribal government?

Government screws stuff up. Tribal government, local government, federal government, doesn't really matter. If there's government involved, something is probably being forced to work inefficiently.

Re:Government as usual

[iminplaya]

Oh please! You've had since 1973 to find an alternative or three. That's 35 years of sitting on your asses yelling "please,sir, may I have another?".

Re:Government as usual

[TubeSteak]

Is tribal governance not handled by some kind of tribal government?

Government screws stuff up. Tribal government, local government, federal government, doesn't really matter. If there's government involved, something is probably being forced to work inefficiently.

True, but...
1. Native American Government is much much less transparent about their business than is normal in a 'Western' government, allowing shenanigans that even their own people would protest. We're not talking inefficiency here, we're talking about a (apparently/allegedly) broken bidding process.

2. The OP specifically singled out "some GS weenie".
GS = General Schedule = US Federal Government

This problem is of the Tribe's own making and as I pointed out,
the USAC is not the Federal Government.
http://www.usac.org/about/usac/

The Universal Service Administrative Company (USAC) is an independent, not-for-profit corporation designated as the administrator of the federal Universal Service Fund by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC).

A lot of the Native American Tribes need to join the modern era and create some transparency in their governance. It's one thing when their malfeasance/corruption benefits a minority of members, it's another thing entirely when it publicly harms the entire Tribe. How hard is it to run a kosher bidding process? They could have hired a bonded and insured company that adheres to Federal Standards to do it for them.

Re:Government as usual

[jd]

That's a very simplistic viewpoint and runs counter to historical experience and the majority of accepted non-partisan political theory. It is a viewpoint that mostly goes along with governments that use Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) as weapons of political terrorism. The United States does an exceptional job at creating FUD. Indeed, every government created by violence or fear has perpetuated itself through violence and fear, whereas governments formed by peaceful consent almost never use either violence or fear, they survive by consent perfectly well.

(I'm not going to argue over whether or not the war of independence was necessary or not, to me that is irrelevant. What matters is that the war is still going on in the minds of those who run the country, and all is "fair" in love and war - even when the war is a delusionary one.)

Re:Government as usual

[MillionthMonkey]

Perhaps they could pay for their own Internet access. Like, ya know, everyone else.

What? You pay for your Internet access?

Re:Government as usual

[jd]

You might want to look at what was highlighted - the PROVIDER is under investigation, not the tribe. It is the provider that is corrupt, the tribe (very likely) has no more technical knowledge or business acumen than any other non-technical non-corporate organization. ie: not much. This looks like a typical case of a business finding people who lack the necessary skills to evaluate a contract and decided to rip them off as much as possible before getting caught. Hell, I've worked for multinationals that are incapable of evaluating contracts and got themselves screwed over. If you can't expect Fortune 500 companies to bother reading what is written, just because of a fancy powerpoint presentation, can you seriously expect a community get-together to do better?

Re:Government as usual

[gd2shoe]

[T]he war of independence... is still going on in the minds of those who run the country...

What? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've read all year.

... whereas governments formed by peaceful consent almost never use either violence or fear...

Examples, please. I'm sure you'll find the nations that you're thinking of were born in blood or oppression. Most countries were, unfortunately.

Re:Government as usual

[geekoid]

PLease, the FCC is ending it's grant money.
So the Nation is upset it's not getting it's free ride.

But wait,
"New Mexico Sens. Jeff Bingaman (D) and Pete V. Domenici (R) wrote to the FCC two weeks ago. "We are deeply disturbed by this imminent loss of communications service to vital public safety agencies."

So the government wants to help.

The government does work, and in fact if you actually researched it you you find that with almost all it's projects the government is very efficient, more so then any corporation could be.

Go to your library and look at the budget and actuals. Far less waste.

oh, btw, stop setting up straw men, it's doesn't help and makes you the weenie.

Re:Government as usual

[TopSpin]

Government just doesn't really work.

Government is a reflection of civilization. I don't like this at all.

Landlines, radios, tv signals, cars; no one is getting cut off from the world.

An ugly glitch that needs fixing. They don't deserve your business, and the can't keep you off the net.

Happy Friday

Re:Government as usual

[geekoid]

Yes, but with it hidden, and using demogaugory, they can make the US the cause of all their problem.

Re:Government as usual

[urcreepyneighbor]

Here goes whatever karma I've built up, but oh-fucking-well:

1. Native American Government is much much less transparent about their business than is normal in a 'Western' government, allowing shenanigans that even their own people would protest.

You insensitive White Man! You and your Western style of government and business is evil and corrupt! Don't you realize, Evil White Man, that bribes and corruption are part of our Native American culture?!

The Great Spirit manifests itself in suitcases filled with money!

Re:Government as usual

[jlarocco]

That's a very simplistic viewpoint and runs counter to historical experience and the majority of accepted non-partisan political theory. It is a viewpoint that mostly goes along with governments that use Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) as weapons of political terrorism. The United States does an exceptional job at creating FUD. Indeed, every government created by violence or fear has perpetuated itself through violence and fear, whereas governments formed by peaceful consent almost never use either violence or fear, they survive by consent perfectly well.

You honestly believe the United States got to be one ofthe richest, most powerful countries in the world by scaring its citizens with "political terrorism"? And you're sure it has nothing to do with our being one of the freest countries in the world? And you also have some explaination for why countries like Cuba, North Korea, Laos, East Germany, and the Soviet Union are/were shitholes, despite their massively invasive communist governments, right?

Unless you can provide any kind of evidence, I have to disagree. In fact, some people might say there's roughly an inverse relationship between goverment control and the well being of the people in a country. But hey, don't let facts and evidence get in the way of your bullshit.

Can you even name a single real life government based on "peaceful consent" that hasn't sucked? I agree it sounds great on paper, but it just wouldn't work in real life.

Re:Government as usual

[12357bd]

Examples, please.

Iberians for example.

Current Catalonia, ancient people, ancient culture, first european parlament, never imperialistic.

Re:Government as usual

[Henry V .009]

Wrong. There is good government and there is bad government. It generally depends on the people conducting said government. Spend a couple years in the third world (or New Mexico, where I live), and you will quickly discover that good government actually means a lot. Being able to collect taxes, keep the electricity on, and keep civil servant bribes to an absolute minimum turns out to be wonderful for improving quality of life.

Re:Government as usual

[Anonymous Coward]

"How hard is it to run a kosher bidding process?"

I'm posting anonymously, but one of my clients from time to time is a tribal government. It's actually pretty damn hard to run a kosher anything, when there are no trained employees whatsoever.

Consider that only 7% of the Navajo nation over age 25 has a college degree. That includes associates degrees too. Only 56% made it through high school.

Need someone who can e.g. run Excel or quickbooks? And someone who isn't caught up in the various things that occur disproportionately often in extremely poor areas, such as health deterioration, family issues, drug abuse, etc? Good luck with that.

Say you're lucky and land the perfect employee to help with running your government office. Congratulations, they just left for better pay in another division (or off the reservation entirely)!

It's really a rather difficult and sad situation that won't resolve itself for a generation or more, barring drastic change.

Re:Government as usual

[Anonymous Coward]

That, or up the 25 cent slots to $1.

Re:Government as usual

[D'Sphitz]

Last I heard the Navajo had a sovereign nation, so why should the FCC be paying for their internet access again?

If they can't govern themselves, employ themselves, feed themselves, or keep the lights on maybe it's time for them to join the U.S.A.

Re:Government as usual

[Hyperspite]

"Almost all its projects." I think you may want to look up the Big Dig in Boston, many DMVs, the WTC reconstruction, and congress. The government is SOMETIMES efficient, but usually at a level where people don't report directly to elected officials AND have the right personality leading them. Making broad claims without a good basis is a bad idea.

Re:Government as usual

[jd]

Let's test my claims versus the examples you gave, see if my prediction is correct.

• Cuba - current administration founded by violent revolution - maintained by violence and intimidation - results and proportion match theory
• North Korea - founded by violent civil war - maintained by violence and intimidation - results and proportion match theory
• Laos - current administration founded by violent civil war - maintained by force and suppression - results match theory
• East Germany - founded by violent occupation of a society riddled with violence and xenophobia - maintained brutally by force and intimidation - results and proportion match theory
• Soviet Union - founded by a combination of violent revolution and violent conquest - maintained by savage violence and intimidation - results and proportion match theory

Remember, my theory says NOTHING about success, wealth, power, influence or even freedoms. It states that a system will typically be maintained by the means by which it is created. You can have a violently maintained nation that still has enormous freedoms. In the most trivial sense, the fact that US cops carry guns is all about maintaining law and order through the threat of them shooting you. If that wasn't an effective threat, why would they bother?

You can also have FUD and freedom. Classic example - the raising of the national alert status for the Democratic Convention in 2004. Wonderful example of deliberate scare tactics, but it didn't alter anyone's freedom to attend. Margret Thatcher routinely used scare tactics to frighten people away from voting Labour, superb FUD work, but she never stopped anyone supporting them or voting for them.

My first claim is that you cannot have a nation that was founded through violence that uses neither FUD nor violence to survive - such methods guarantee real and imagined grievances will make it unsafe for such a nation to ever renounce such methods. Any nation that tries will inevitably get itself replaced. You have shown me no counter-example. All your examples verify this claim.

My second claim is that you cannot have a nation that was founded through peaceful means that uses either FUD or violence to survive - should it try, the backlash will always exceed its capacity to deal with both the rebellion and whatever caused it to adopt such tactics in the first place. There are rather fewer examples of such societies, but they have existed (Skara Brae is a good example, surviving 1,500 until finally being beaten by the environment) and they do exist (Iceland is considered the most peaceful in the world, has been a genuine democracy since 930AD and I don't recall it getting mentioned here for Big Brother tactics).

I make no other claims, although since you brought up America's wealth, I would point out Iceland is one of the wealthiest nations in the world. This would indicate to me that any nation is capable of wealth, that wealth is wholly independent of the means to sustain the government.

(Please note: I dislike Iceland's stance on many issues, but I respect them for being honest in their views. I wouldn't want to live there, and I do choose to live in the US freely even though I regard the current regime as a bunch of mindless thugs and don't expect any future regime to improve on that.)

Re:Government as usual

[Skeetskeetskeet]

Oh, I'm sorry, I was 4 in 1973, I was a little bit preoccupied with Sesame Street and Bugs Bunny, I didn't realize the entire alternative fuel project was on my little shoulders at that time you fucking idiot.

Re:Government as usual

[iminplaya]

Your post sounds like you're still 4 years old :-) Can you say "collective you"? Damn near 40, and you(personally this time) are looking to congress to fix your very little problem. I would pity you, if I wasn't rolling on the floor laughing at you. Struggling indeed.

Re:Government as usual

[MJMullinII]

Yes, but with it hidden, and using demogaugory, they can make the US the cause of all their problem.

We do not make the US the cause of all of our problems.

We invite the US Government, and all hard working citizens to relax and enjoy our $5 Shrimp Cocktail deal in the Lobby of our fine Casinos.

While you are there, feel free to try our $1 Slots and 2-for-1 Bingo Bonanzas!

And thank you for Gambling on Tribal Lands!

Re:Government as usual

[KGIII]

Hey man. You can't speak badly about the current administration here in America! We are FORWARD thinkers. Go on, with all your listed examples above, name one other country that has managed to put so many of the mentally disadvantaged into such prominent positions.

None?

America == Open.

We put our flaws out there for all the world to see. We don't see China lining the streets with mental midgets when the Olympics goes there but here, in the land where we're all equal, we'll parade 'em out to shake the hands of dignitaries from around the world.

Sorry, couldn't resist. It is almost time for these tired old bones to get some sleep.

I really wrote that so that I could say that that was an interesting post that you made. You should journal it some time so people can refer to it. Or wikipedia it as JD's Theorum or the likes.

Re:Government as usual

[nospam007]

> Perhaps they could pay for their own Internet access. Like, ya know, everyone else.

1. build a casino
2. deduce the internet connection from taxes
3. profit.

Re:Government as usual

[Anonymous Coward]

>deduce the internet connection from taxes

Pray tell, Watson, how would one do that?

Re:Government as usual

[ppanon]

Yeah there are some other major screw-ups too, like the last 3, 4? attempts to modernize the core computing systems of the IRS. Or some of those attempts to upgrade the air traffic control systems in the last 2 decades. Of course, you know what? Most of the ones I and you listed were contracted and subcontracted out to private and public corporations, not carried out directly by government employees.

Oh, and let's not forget defense contractors like Halliburton, KBR, Blackwater, Boeing/Rockwell, etc.

Government is often pretty efficient, but their biggest problems are that markets are more prone to corruption when there is no or little competition either on the selling side or on the buying side. The larger the government the more it presents a tempting target for corruption. The biggest inefficiencies are usually in the corruption of companies that feed at the public trough.

Re:Government as usual

[HungryHobo]

The irish state was formed after a violent civil war and more rebellions/uprisings than I can count on both hands yet our police don't carry guns on the streets and the joke about our army is "Join the Irish army, see interesting places, get to know the other 2 guys."

A state formed through violence can be quite peaceful.

Australia was formed peacefully yet they get a fair whack of the FUD that americans get about terrorism.
Looking for nations that formed peacefully seems to be a problem since so few are formed that way and it's always debatable since often they came to be as a result of a larger conflict or the violence was limited to a handful of top politicians being bumped off.

Some of the countries which came into being when the soviet union fell apart were formed peacefully but are far from perfect when it comes to oppression/violence.

Re:Government as usual

[myth_of_sisyphus]

You also forgot:

United States - founded by a combination of violent revolution and violent conquest.

Re:Government as usual

[Oktober Sunset]

How hard is it to run a kosher bidding process?

I thought they were Native Americans, not Jews.

Re:Government as usual

[Oktober Sunset]

Australia formed peacefully? Well if by that you mean the Aborigines didn't put up much of a fight when the white man conquered them...

As for the countries formed from te former USSR, well, there may not have been open warfare, but well, you think they just called the Kremlin and said, 'hello chaps we're independent now' and the Russians said 'Jolly good, well we'll withdraw our troops and let you get on with it'?

Re:Government as usual

[CastrTroy]

Or you could tap into the fibre line running through native land, and start an internet casino hosting service. It's arguably the only legal casino hosting in North America.

Re:Government as usual

[Anonymous Coward]

Here goes whatever karma I've built up, but oh-fucking-well:

I hope it was worth it.

Re:Government as usual

[Ash Vince]

Or maybe the current government could remember it was their country originally that the white man stole from them and cut them some slack.

Re:Government as usual

[Anonymous Coward]

So.... we have had a long time for file alternatives, but we didn't NEED alternatives most of that time. Your post does not change the fact that Congress DID take off for a long period of time, and that are ARE having problems with the high gas prices. Those problems don't become trivial when you say "well you have prepared!" by hindsight.

Re:Government as usual

[zippthorne]

Wait.. You're seriously suggesting that Spain, a nation which was pretty much completely taken over by Moors, which then drove them out in a bloody, ongoing, century long conflict, followed by the freakin' Spanish Inquisition... the subjugation of Central and most of South America...Guernica...

You're suggesting that that nation was neither born in blood, nor is imperialistic, nor uses violence and fear...

Wow. Just.. Wow.

Re:Government as usual

[Anonymous Coward]

Canada - founded after the citizens asked the British Parliament to give them their own country ;)

Re:Government as usual

[Anonymous Coward]

Makes me wonder why the Navajo can't either borrow the money, or ask for an outright grant, from their Seminole or Miccosukee brothers in Florida. I'm sure they have some spare change at this point.

Re:Government as usual

[TubeSteak]

You honestly believe the United States got to be one ofthe richest, most powerful countries in the world by scaring its citizens with "political terrorism"? And you're sure it has nothing to do with our being one of the freest countries in the world?

The United States got to be one "richest, most powerful countries in the world" for two main reasons:

1. North America has lots of natural resources & arable land.

2. The Colonies kicked out their colonizers before all those resources were exported back to the mother/fatherland.

Everything else flows from those two reasons.

There are lots of African Countries that could be mini-super powers by now if the British/French/Dutch/Spanish/etc colonialist phase hadn't siphoned off the resources and left the colonized countries with unstable governments & foreign relations dependancies.

The USA is a prime example of what 'western' culture (of the time) can create when it is unfettered. Most of Africa and South America are examples of what colonialism does to the colony.

Re:Government as usual

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet Canada still has a history of abuse of its native people just like the US.

Re:Government as usual

[12357bd]

Iberia is NOT Spain, my dear.

There are different cultures-nations on the iberian peninsula. Spain is a classical imperialistic kingdom. Catalonia, (iberian culture descendent) ha never been a imperialistic nation.

Don't get fooled by political propaganda. Spanish nation has been trying to erase-minimize Iberian/Catalonian culture for more than 3 centuries.

So no, 'iberians' are not 'spanish'. Iberian is a millenary culture, Spain just is a 5 centuries old imperialistic estate.

Re:Government as usual

[iminplaya]

...we didn't NEED alternatives most of that time.

Yes we did, right from the very first time the pushers pulled this stunt. Maybe you didn't see the need, but I sure did and have worked around it since 1982, while you simply closed your eyes. I prepared in foresight, and I cannot care less about the price of gas. I was laughing in '73, and I'm laughing now. Congress has been doing this since I can remember. It is a regularly scheduled recess. And you all are just demanding for them to come back and secure you another fix. Quitcherbellyachin!!! And make tell your damn congress to do nothing more than make sure the alternatives have equal access to the market. Oh, and by the way, the same goes for internet access, create some alternative forms of access, and you'll be dictating the terms of service to the ISPs, instead of the other way around. And do it NOW before you start crying "woe with me" when you "need" to. The problem is as trivial as you make it.

Re:Government as usual

[Anonymous Coward]

Iceland was an extremely impoverished country until world war 2 when a large influx of cash and trade with the allies happened. Iceland's wealth has its bases in the most violent conflict in human history and maintains it through trade with countries that were formed violently and others that still are.

We here in Iceland that choose to live a wealthy lifestyle are just as guilty as people in the rest of Europe or the US of enjoying wealth that was created in part through genocide and war.

Oh and I suggest you reread Icelandic history if you think we have been a genuine democracy since 930 AD and never done anything big brotherly.

Re:Government as usual

[mysidia]

The real question is... why aren't they starting all over again and seeking a new provider, with a brand new bidding process?

It should have been done long before this contract was expiring...

Re:Government as usual

[gallwapa]

The "your ancestors did X to my ancestors" crap only works for so many centuries. Was it wrong? Yes. Do I want to use my tax dollars to atone for it? No. Long story short: Get over it alerady

Re:Government as usual

[Anonymous Coward]

You're suggesting to get over it, while they're still being discriminated against? You're suggesting it isnt any issue, while you're still reaping the benefits from it?

Re:Government as usual

[zippthorne]

Catalonia is part of Spain. So, if they were pacifists, I'd say it didn't work out too well for them.

Re:Government as usual

[shokk]

Seems to me that something that calls itself a nation should be creating its own solutions instead of begging for handouts. Not much more of a nation than a gaming clan.

Re:Government as usual

[canuck57]

You might want to look at what was highlighted - the PROVIDER is under investigation, not the tribe. It is the provider that is corrupt, the tribe (very likely) has no more technical knowledge or business acumen than any other non-technical non-corporate organization. ie: not much. This looks like a typical case of a business finding people who lack the necessary skills to evaluate a contract and decided to rip them off as much as possible before getting caught. Hell, I've worked for multinationals that are incapable of evaluating contracts and got themselves screwed over. If you can't expect Fortune 500 companies to bother reading what is written, just because of a fancy powerpoint presentation, can you seriously expect a community get-together to do better?

And how does all that differ from non-native people doing the same thing? If it were a farming community of white people would this even make the news? If you don't have hte skills, go out there and get them.

You would think with 250,000 people they would, well, do like everyone else - manage it and PAY for the services needed. Or better yet get a JOB and pay $140 per month for your own private link. Or even better yet, a small group of that 250,000 start up a Internet company and WORK to get the services they want at a price they can afford. This isn't the 1900's any more. $10/month from 250,000 is $30M a year, that is a lot of internet service.

From our experiences in Canada, it is just a bunch of natives whining for more handouts. They want, and normal society has to provide at no charge to them. Getting tiring actually.

Re:Government as usual

[shokk]

So the modern European states should be paying X amount of dollars to the Celtics, Frisians, Basques and Cagot for land that was conquered? The Quechua and Aymara are owed something by the Europeans that settled there? And the waves upon waves of settlement across the South Pacific requires compensation to those who originally settle some time back in the stone age?

Somehow that ALL sounds really stupid. Stolen == conquered, just like any and every other nation on this world. You've been conquered. End of story. The difference is you've chosen the latest one as your cause and to ignore everything prior to that. You've drawn a line that is inconvenient for you to look past, but which is just as real.

Get yourself a textbook and learn the real history of this world. Go buy something like Guns Germs and Steel and find out about how all these native people took it away from someone else and someone before them. There is evidence showing that the Americas were settled in waves over other people that had come before. And now we took it from them and one day it will be our turn as well.

Re:Government as usual

[Shark]

Our own country eh? Sure we get to manage it... So long as the queen agrees.

Re:Government as usual

[shokk]

  > Catalonia has never been a imperialistic nation.

From the article you quoted:

  > The principality was formed by the union of many of the different counties which formed the Marca Hispanica during the reconquista under the rule of the Count of Barcelona. It was later unified dynastically in 1137 to the Crown of Aragon, of which it was an important member.

I can't even say that was a good try. The very mention of the above implies blood and steel. You're just choosing and picking what you want to believe in, like Catalonia is some fairy tale land with a magic castle and tinkerbells flying around where no man ever ruled over another with by the sword. Man up and be honest about what has happened. Don't dishonor those that died in that land at the hand of those that wanted power, including Iberians over other Iberians.

Re:Government as usual

[12357bd]

including Iberians over other Iberians.

I am sorry, but your still wrong. Catalonia was a Principality, not a Kingdom, there was no 'king of Catalonia', never, it could not exist, because of the tradiction of the land, that goes for millenia from anciens Iberians, to current catalonians.

In that tradition, the maximun power estament is the County, and between them one is choosed to represent the plurality of the land. In that case, the Count of Barcelona. But that count is not king over the population, it has to negotiate, between other counts and staments from the society.

The count of Barcelona managed to acquire the crown of adjacent Aragon kingdom, (they were severely menaced by the kingdoms of Castilla and Nafarroa, and turned to Catalonia for 'help', that the dinastycal liason you quoted), but this kingship does not resulted in aragonese culture or language anihilation, because the iberain political tradition has a strong bias towards agreements, not impositions.

So, go back to the first post, and read: first european parlament (from catalan 'parlar' 'to talk' in english), never imperialistic.

There was no 'other iberians' on the iberian peninsula, there were other peoples, other traditions, not other 'iberians'. It was some of those other cultures that managed to overpower iberians tribus, not the other way around.

Now, history is full of violence, true, iberians are not an exception, true, but they never tried to become an empire, enforcing a language or his own laws, overpowering other cultures or nations, that's a fact, and that was the thread starting point.

Re:Government as usual

[Dark_Gravity]

"How hard is it to run a kosher bidding process?"

You haven't ever tried to find a rabbi on an Indian Reservation, have you?

Re:Government as usual

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, a Canadian that I actually agree with wholeheartedly. Maybe I should go to a rez and play some slots or something. Lightening could always strike twice you know.

Re:Government as usual

[Slithe]

I have to point out that Iceland has NOT been a 'genuine democracy since 930 AD.' It was largely under the control of the king of Norway or Denmark since the Middle Ages. It only achieved true independence in 1944.

Re:Government as usual

[Slithe]

Um, I have to disagree with you on this. Mexico (and presumably other more equatorial Latin American countries {almost definitely Venezuela}) have more natural resources per area than the United States does but are a lot poorer. As someone mentioned above, Iceland is, on average, wealthier than the United States is, but it lacks a lot of desirable natural resources (besides coastline, fishes, and geothermal vents). If anything, this data shows an inverse correlation between natural wealth and total wealth. Eric Raymond discussed this issue in his essay Fear and Loathing in Caracas.

Re:Government as usual

[we9307_ess]

Why do the American Indians need the internet anyway? Heck, they invented "smoke signals." Why can't they continue to use that?

Re:Government as usual

[MuffinSpawn]

You have a point, but something about this line of thinking stinks. I supposed it's that it seems more like an excuse to avoid feeling compelled to help people who have gotten the short end of the stick. It just perpetuates the "sucks to be you" culture that's especially prevalent in the US. We should just be as greedy as possible, ignoring the plight of anyone else. Some people call it the "culture of independence", but I just think it's a lack of compassion.

Furthermore, when are we going to consider conquering people as an unacceptable practice? If we don't take responsibility for recent actions of this sort, there's no precedent for the future on how governments should act. If you think our government is above this now, consider the fact that we're occupying two countries as we speak...er...type. Different circumstances, sure, but the same solution.

Perhaps we still are just apes with big brains.

Re:Government as usual

[Hyperspite]

Point taken.

  On the other hand, in cases like the WTC screwup, the main problem is because they have something like 7 stakeholders all arguing over every detail - true bureaucracy at work. I talked to the VP of one of the private project managers there and they were pissed off at the amount of money being wasted.

Re:Government as usual

[HungryHobo]

Well in the case of the former USSR countries kinda, the policy became that they were unwilling to hold on to them by force. Course with all the armed men who hadn't been getting their paychecks for some time it wasn't all that peaceful.
Australia formed peacefully compared to most countries.
For that matter how peaceful do you think Icelands formation was, all the little villages just rolled over and declared one guy king for no reason?

The question then becomes, what countries were really formed in a peaceful manner and the answer seems to be "none"

Hmm.

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck the navajo.

Radios...

[Devil's BSD]

Well, we know the Navajo are great with wireless communication and encryption...

http://xkcd.com/257/

Smoke Signals

[Ignis Flatus]

They're binary, right?

Re:Smoke Signals

[fmwap]

TCP/IP over bongo drums

Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

At some point, we are going to realize that a world divided into nations cannot coexist with a world united on one internet.

It's already strange enough having nations like the Navajo trying to exist inside other nations.

What use are nations these days? Don't they just divide us?

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

What use are nations these days? Don't they just divide us?

The world is full of unimaginable horrors and humans being deprived from basic necessities and rights. The idea of a nation is to divide the world into blocks that are small enough that you could possibly do something about the terrible condition in which you and your fellow citizens exist.

How much more likely are you to be able to uplift the condition of a small nation than a large one? A great deal.

How likely are you to be successful in attempts to uplift the condition of all men in all nations? Not very likely.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

Are the United States and Japan small nations? Can you think of any small nations living in destitution? In what way do small divisions help? Would you rather live in the forming nation of Europe, or in Sierra Leone?

Splitting peoples into little groups pits them against each other, isolates them, and makes them unable to amass enough power/resources to do anything about their position.

Uniting peoples into one global internet makes everyones' lives better, and has little spinoffs like the end of war and terrorism.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

Nations are the only thing that protects the rest of the world from being completely ruled by ignorant insensitive Americans.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

And the rise of goatse.

I, for one, welcome our new amazingly 'flexible' overlords.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you rather live in the forming nation of Europe, or in Sierra Leone?

Andorra or Zimbabwe? Belgium or China? Chile or India? The first one in each pair is smaller and most definitely in a better condition.

Splitting peoples into little groups pits them against each other, isolates them, and makes them unable to amass enough power/resources to do anything about their position.

You are arguing for a further homogenization of the laws and culture of humanity. That is a terrible, terrible idea. If I have different values than the people around me then I should be free to leave here and find a place that is different. How could a person do that if every nation was governed the same way and had the same laws and culture?

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[cakkafracle]

you'd have to get rid of all the religions as well as nations...

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[iminplaya]

Locally managed groups have no need to put up fences between them. Territorialism is for animals that are unable to transport needed resources. And for slave owners who want those resources for themselves.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

How likely are you to be successful in attempts to uplift the condition of all men in all nations? Not very likely.

Me? Not very likely. But the point is not that one person can make the change, but that everyone can do it collectively. When we are divided into nations, we are most focused around our national interests, not the interests of humanity.

People ask things like: "Isn't it horrible that Americans are no longer the best science students in the world?" Where is the human benefit there? Imagine if instead we had the framework whereby we could ask, "Isn't it great that students overall are learning more and more about science?"

Nations made a lot of sense in the past, before we had an internet. Now they are simply obsolete, and do not serve the advancement of humanity.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Joe Tie.]

The point of nations is that you and I are considered property by other people, no matter what kind of pleasant label they put on it.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[12357bd]

Don't they just divide us?

Oh Yes!, and a single specie, is much better than millions of differents beings, also!

Don't get fooled, diversity IS the norm, monolithical conceptions are just a one's mind nightmare.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Hyperspite]

Lol. I've thought of this from time to time and managed to come up with a reducio ad absurdium. I thought, well we could have a world government that takes care of the general laws that have little cultural bearing, enforce the peace, etc. But then you would have to divide the world regionally to have a more local government. It would be a federal world.

  But then you merely look at the US or the nascent EU nation and you see how the central authority grabs more and more power until the locals have nothing left. Thus, nations are the answer. Preferably many small nations with some sort of good peace enforcement. Ironically, this turns out to be exactly what we have what with the US being the world cop, many nations, and the UN being a place for the nations to discuss things in a neutral mediated setting.

This is arguably deficient in many ways. However, it is arguably close to an optimal setup. A world government would probably just collapse into civil war anyway.

  Another thing I thought of is that so many sci-fi authors speak of how it is a disappointment that we wouldn't be able to meet extraterrestrials with a united face. I think this is a good thing. A species that is that homogeneous is probably not going to survive that long. The aliens could just deal with whomever they like - just like another nation interfacing with another. We just have to declare orbit neutral (which we have) to make it work.

Wow I'm rambling. I hope this makes sense.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

The idea of a nation is to divide the world into blocks that are small enough that you could possibly do something about the terrible condition in which you and your fellow citizens exist.

No, it's not. What you said is our justification of why nations do make sense. A posteriori.

What nations historically are: a result of war, of exerted power. They divide the world into blocks that are manageable enough to keep others out (for the government to keep the power). In a more citizen-centric view, they are meant to "protect" us from our bad neighbors--neighbors are, per definition, the bad ones.

So, the question is not: "What is the idea of a nation?", but: "What should we do about nations--now that they do exist?"

Personally, albeit I dislike the idea of nations, I don't necessarily see a united world viable. People haven't changed that much during the last couple of millennia, the best we get from a unified world with a unified net is unified CCTV, unified control of the people.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[oldhack]

There is no "us" without "them". If not nation, it'll be religion, ethnicity, tribe, class, occupation, favorite color, etc.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

YOU wanna go ask them if they want to live with the rest of us? Especially after whatever ancestors did to ancestors? While I partially agree with your sentiment, I don't think they would.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

The idea of a nation is to divide the world into blocks that are small enough that you could possibly do something about the terrible condition in which you and your fellow citizens exist.

Exactly. Of course, this type of thinking will make you very unpopular with marxists, who hold the bizarre belief that diversity is a form of strength.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[mqduck]

The world is full of unimaginable horrors and humans being deprived from basic necessities and rights. The idea of a nation is to divide the world into blocks that are small enough that you could possibly do something about the terrible condition in which you and your fellow citizens exist.

Actually, the idea is to have the government of powerful nations not answerable to the people of the nations they exploit for cheap labor (etc). By your logic, the US would become a much better place if all the States became sovereign nations. They're already the size of nations. Heck, there's three sovereign nations in Europe that could each fit inside Rhode Island.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, I have to put in my two cents.

The world is divided into nations because of characteristics shared by groups of individuals, not by any altruistic ideal of improving "the terrible condition" in which people exist.

Just as an example, check how many 3rd (and above) generation americans would like to consider themselves part of the same nation as Mexico (I use this analogy because the cultural differences are significant enough, as opposed to those separating them from Canada).

Like I said, just my two cents

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[chip_s_ahoy]

What use are nations these days? Don't they just divide us?

The world is full of unimaginable horrors and humans being deprived from basic necessities and rights. The idea of a nation is to divide the world into blocks that are small enough that you could possibly do something about the terrible condition in which you and your fellow citizens exist.

  How much more likely are you to be able to uplift the condition of a small nation than a large one? A great deal.

  How likely are you to be successful in attempts to uplift the condition of all men in all nations? Not very likely.

You are some kind of genius. You Magnificent Genius Bastard.

I'll write down your name, and take note of your later posts.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[ppanon]

A world government with real legal power and real spending power would just be a massive attractor for corruption, for people wanting to usurp the power from inside the system, and from organizations outside the government wanting to exploit it's need for services from third parties. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know! Maybe we should ask Quebec which is/is not a part of Canada.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[danbeck]

I have little in common with people from other countries other than DNA. My culture is radically different; my religion is different and my personal values are so completely opposed that you could find almost no comparison.

I will die a free man before I am forced to live under any other government's tyranny and oppression.

Nations and borders, thankfully, exist for a damned good reason.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

Granted, one is more likely to improve the lives of a small rather than large number of people, but what of those under repressive governments who are unable to escape? The restrictions that nations impose on the movement of their people gives them power. If the nations bordering Zimbabwe allowed free movement between them, I'm sure there would be very few people left in the country for Mugabe to control.

The concept of me "belonging" to a country based on the simple geographical location of one's birth is absurd! Why should one feel any loyalty to their country in the first place? What's more, one cannot simply renounce their citizenship since their government can refuse to recognise a stateless person.

Why should anyone be forced to abide by laws with which they do not agree, and then told they aren't able to vote with their feet?

ironically, my captcha was "warfare"

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

That is not at all what the Metagovernment is like. It is not a central authority over the world. It is more like a unified community, among many, many other communities. Every community has say over it's area of interest. So the overarching world government would have very little to control except the mechanics of the system.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

While your explanation makes perfect sense, I really doubt that is why the concept/idea of nations was formed.

It's probably simply just a matter of history and tradition. Ancient tribes unite to form nations that are bound by common language.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

The idea of a nation is to divide the world into blocks that are small enough that you could possibly do something about the terrible condition in which you and your fellow citizens exist.

That's a tad idealistic.

Nations are about Power, Loyalty, Control, Bigotry, and Arrogance.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Lloyd_Bryant]

By your logic, the US would become a much better place if all the States became sovereign nations. They're already the size of nations. Heck, there's three sovereign nations in Europe that could each fit inside Rhode Island.

The original plan laid down by the Founding Father's had the states as something more than administrative districts, but something less than sovereign nations. So that most of went on within a state's boundaries was governed by the state, and the federal government only dealt with matters that genuinely crossed state lines.

Then we had a Civil War, in which the issue of states' rights became entangled with the issue of slavery. And as a result we now have an all-powerful federal government, and the states *have* been reduced to little more than administrative districts.

I suspect we *would* be better off if the US was more like the EU, with states actually having some degree of independence. Large, central governments are *much* easier for special interests to manipulate, since far fewer people have to be convinced (or bribed).

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[sumdumass]

The bigger they are, the easier they fail.

There, I fixed that for us. And yes, I agree.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

You are some kind of genius. You Magnificent Genius Bastard. I'll write down your name, and take note of your later posts.

So indulging in philosophizing is a crime in your worldview?

Philosophy and "bull sessions" are one of the great joys in life.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. So why not recognize that, and organize as communities within one framework oriented toward developing consensus within and between communities?

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like defeatism to me.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect we *would* be better off if the US was more like the EU, with states actually having some degree of independence. Large, central governments are *much* easier for special interests to manipulate, since far fewer people have to be convinced (or bribed).

Don't be fooled by appearances, the EU controls 80% of what goes on in the EU member states. Added to this, nobody has a vote for an EU comissioner or the president, both are appointees that control every piece of EU legislation.

The EU is a fascist dictatorship by committee.

May I suggest that we would all be better off if we lived in a society based on the Swiss system of direct democracy. This is where politicians are kept in their rightful place, as part time servants of the people, instead of parasites that produce absolutely nothing except misery, and charge us a fortune for the privilege.

The pesident of the Swiss Confederation has to suffer the ignominy of driving his/her own car, with NO bodyguards, and submit him/herself to questioning by the public at any time, Added to this the executive there meet 3 or 4 times a year and do proper jobs for the rest of the time, otherwise they would not have enough cash to live on.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[warpuck]

The main difference; the Republic of Texas and the Republic of California sought to join the Union and The Nation did not. The issues between The Nation and the ISP may not come out as 1 sided as The Nation and the Union. I am quite sure being Jewish is not a requirment for admiitance to law school. There may be a lawyer or 2 that is a Navaho.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

For one thing Native Americans are still a People and still a Nation. Yes we dearly hang on to what we have left. Does it divide us. No it unites us as a people. Maybe it divides us from you but please remember we don't want to be you. Something you people have never understood since you washed up lost on these shores. We like being who we are and perfer to be left alone to be us. Still today it continues in a different place but still trying to force tribes of people to conform to your values. Have you bother to look where your fucking values have lead the world to the shape it is in today?

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Hyperspite]

I like the concept, but who enforces the peace? For instance, how do you defend against a single charismatic person creating a roving army and looting the place? You'll need some sort of central authority to manage the military.

Re:Nations vs. Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

August 1, 2008

Mr. Jim Ducay
Chief Operating Officer
SES AMERICOM
4 Research Way
Princeton, NJ 08540

Dear Mr. Ducay:

On July 17, 2008, U.S. Senators Jeff Bingaman (NM) and Pete Domenici (NM) wrote to me regarding the impending "shut off" of OnSat Newtork Communications, Inc. (OnSat) satellite-based communications services providing significant public safety operations and other vital communications services to the Navajo Nation (Nation). Senators Bingaman and Domenici noted that, "[t]his shut off will affect the entire Nation including seven public safety agencies that field emergency calls and cover a 27,000-suqare-mile territory in New Mexico, Utah, and Arizona"

I understand that SES AMERICOM intends to shut off transponder capacity to OnSat today due to a dispute regarding non-payment. I also understand that such action will result in the loss of significantt public safety services to first responders across the country. Based on FCC information, SES's termination of service will impact at least 25 public safety entities in 13 states throughout the country. This includes federal, state and local emergency response agencies, local governments, law enforcement agencies, fire departments, and emergency medical services providers.

These agencies can ill afford to be confronted with a precipitous loss of service when dealing with potentially life or death situations. I therefore urge you to find a manner as expeditiously as possible in which to ensure continued service, without interruption, to theese public safety entities in order to preserve the vital public safety uses that this capacity supports.

The FCC stands ready to assist SES AMERICOM to ensure that these vital communications services are provided without distruption or delay.

Sincerely,

Kevin J. Martin
Chairman

HAM is right out.

[Bartab]

Not only is amateur radio restricted to non commercial uses - meaning important things like NO ADS ALLOWED more than simply no generation of profit for sending over those frequencies. However, it's also "no vulgarity", and "no encryption" as well.

Re:HAM is right out.

[TooMuchToDo]

Long haul 802.11g it is then.

Re:HAM is right out.

[bitrex]

Wait, so it's impossible to troll amateur radio? That..That's j...I ca...It's imp...-head explodes-

Re:HAM is right out.

[gad_zuki!]

Not to mention, its what, 9600 baud? Better off with dial-up.

Re:HAM is right out.

[mpoulton]

Wait, so it's impossible to troll amateur radio?

Unfortunately, it happens all the time. The FCC is nowhere near aggressive enough in enforcing the rules. When they do enforce them, they do so with a huge sledgehammer and a pile of bricks -- but they only do it very rarely.

Re:HAM is right out.

[mpoulton]

I just realized that my post and my sig seem contradictory. I suppose I'm more of a moderate than I think I am at times.

Re:HAM is right out.

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

That was your buddha moment.

Re:HAM is right out.

[mpoulton]

Ha! I hope I have better epiphanies than that eventually.

Re:HAM is right out.

[westlake]

Not only is amateur radio restricted to non commercial uses - meaning important things like NO ADS ALLOWED more than simply no generation of profit for sending over those frequencies. However, it's also "no vulgarity", and "no encryption" as well.
.

not to mention the geek's blithe ignorance of geography.

the Navajo Nation is 26,000 square miles in size, with a population density of about 7 people per square mile. desert icons like Monument Valley are to be found there.

Re:HAM is right out.

[Hal_Porter]

That was your buddha moment.

What is this website and what have you done with slashdot?

Re:HAM is right out.

[Yvanhoe]

According to which laws ? Navajo nation is independent, right ?

Re:HAM is right out.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just as a note, Ham radio doesn't allow for the operator to profit from the communications. Unless the ads displayed (thus transmitted over radio) belong to the operator, there is no violation there. The other two points are another story entirely.

Re:HAM is right out.

[Agripa]

Not to mention, its what, 9600 baud? Better off with dial-up.

It is whatever the modulation and radio channel will support as long as the stations ID periodically and do not interfere with other stations. There are FCC restrictions which apply for the bands below 1.2 GHz but except for the 900 MHz and 440 MHz bands there is not really enough space to support anything really fast anyway. Common standards are usually implemented because of the availability of equipment that can be converted over (modem chips, etc.) but some commercially produced radios now implement a fully digital 128kbit/s mode in the 1.2 GHz band (along with digital voice) and faster custom systems exist. The 2.4 GHz band used for WiFi also overlaps the 2.4 GHz amateur band so equipment could be converted over and run under Part 97 rules but current manufacturers discourage this kind of use.

The FCC restrictions on commercial content and encryption are a larger impediment then data transmission speed limits and make this sort of application impractical anyway.

Re:HAM is right out.

[Anonymous Coward]

Lots of hams use 802.11b equipment to provide personal links at or ( way way ) above the "part 15" licensed power levels. They simply put there call sign in the SSID.

Re:HAM is right out.

[Fjandr]

The Navajo Nation is independent by treaty. Like those treaties that also say the US Government is responsible for providing infrastructure as a result of the things they took from the Navajo (like all the rights to the massive amounts of running water that are diverted to provide power, water, and recreation to Las Vegas and Southern California).

Yeah, they're independent, except that the application of US treaties has left them so impoverished that there's little they can do with that independence (assuming the US government didn't bring out a big damn hammer to squash them for their trouble). Very little power infrastructure, even if they could afford to pay for the power provided by that infrastructure. Few locales with running water, requiring most people to haul water daily from community wells on a first-come, first-serve basis.

Re:HAM is right out.

[sumdumass]

Why isn't the Navajo nation using profits from the casinos to put in public works projects, develop their own wells and infrastructure and then quit depending on the repressions that claim comes from the federal government?

I mean all the towns in my county put in electric service, public water and so on without any money from the state or federal governments. There are still some towns that primarily use well water but Each house has their own well and the septic systems are separated enough that it doesn't polute the water table. Actually, the one town my dad lives in(population 95), just put in public water that they purchase from another town 15 miles away. The sewage goes from the house to a holding tank and gets pumped into when that is full. The water run off from the sewage is funneled into a piping systems that takes the water about 2 miles away and put it in a giant leach field for the entire town.

They also have no city income taxes. The only state or federal money involved in it is a federally backed loan to anyone building a new home to be connected to the infrastructure. But even that is passed on to the home owner. Sure, a lot of this stuff was done in the past when prices were cheaper, but on the reservations, it is an entirely different economy altogether and it could be just as cheap now.

Hell, for getting internet there, it wouldn't be that hard to get a couple of fiber runs coming in from different directions and use 802.11n to feed houses within a 50 mile radius and then lease a commercial or civil frequency with repeaters to move it from town to town. Piggyback telecoms services onto the fiber and they have covered a lot of the costs with existing payments. Overall, it will cost a lot but if you cover the most densely populations first, then spread it out to others over a timespan, of 5-10 years, it would likely pay itself off as it is being implemented.

The problem with Indian nations isn't the repression from the governments. It is the idea that the leaders of the nations had about keeping it real and not adapting to these white man ways. It has effectively put them behind the rest of the country in terms of what the rest of the country is capable of. I would actually like to see them built up and become a "state" and a full member of the US with a republic form of government and all. But then they would loose their tax breaks.

Re:HAM is right out.

[Fjandr]

Why isn't the Navajo nation using profits from the casinos to put in public works projects, develop their own wells and infrastructure and then quit depending on the repressions that claim comes from the federal government?

You apparently know nothing about the Navajo. The Navajo people rejected state gaming compacts for years because they tend to undermine what little national sovereignty native nations have. The financing for the first casinos ever built on Navajo lands was not secured until October of last year, and the first casino was scheduled to be opened last month. Not much time to accumulate profit for public works. But then you seem to be an expert on how the Navajo should fix things, so you'd have known all that already, right?

The Navajo have never really depended on the federal government for anything, if only for the simple fact that the federal government has not fully lived up to a single one of its obligations stemming from treaties with the Navajo Nation.

If you really knew that much about it, you'd know that in the particular environment that encompasses nearly all of the Navajo Nation, even deep wells can run dry seasonally. With no rights to surface water, there is not enough water to provide piped service.

I mean all the towns in my county put in electric service, public water and so on without any money from the state or federal governments.

I can almost guarantee that's not true, at least in regard to the electrical service. As for water, you again have to realize that the Navajo Nation does not have rights to most of the water that is within their borders.

Hell, for getting internet there, it wouldn't be that hard to get a couple of fiber runs coming in from different directions and use 802.11n to feed houses within a 50 mile radius and then lease a commercial or civil frequency with repeaters to move it from town to town. Piggyback telecoms services onto the fiber and they have covered a lot of the costs with existing payments. Overall, it will cost a lot but if you cover the most densely populations first, then spread it out to others over a timespan, of 5-10 years, it would likely pay itself off as it is being implemented.

If you actually cared to inform yourself, it would be fairly easy to do some geographical research to find out why you are so completely off-base here. I'm not going to take the time to correct you though. Suffice to say, this entire quoted paragraph is so misinformed as to be barely worth the attention I've paid to it.

The problem with Indian nations isn't the repression from the governments. It is the idea that the leaders of the nations had about keeping it real and not adapting to these white man ways. It has effectively put them behind the rest of the country in terms of what the rest of the country is capable of. I would actually like to see them built up and become a "state" and a full member of the US with a republic form of government and all. But then they would loose their tax breaks.

I would expect this from someone who has no knowledge whatsoever of the past and current events that have caused these situations to develop, and that keep them there today. The reservations exist where they are specifically because those lands were perceived to have no intrinsic resource value by the government. The various nations had their cultures and languages forcibly stripped from them through the "Indian" schools. They've had the money from tribal trusts that were derived from the few natural resources found after their reservations were created embezzled and wasted on "administrative fees" by the Department of the Interior.

You actually have the audacity to blame the problems on an effort to grasp onto what little culture is left? "It's the fault of the leadership for not seeing the light and abandoning their culture to join the whites!" You blame the people who have consistently held up their end of treaties while the various governments and governmental agencies in the US st

Mesh?

[Anonymous Coward]

We could make this happen. If enough people got WAPs and meshed them together. Would also do wonders for anonymity. Of course, how to get on the backbone...

Re:Mesh?

[symbolset]

We are still waiting for that WAP wizard I wrote of long ago. Go to school. Be the WAP mesh wizard for the rest of us. I don't have time.

All the networks belong to the corporations.

[GuNgA-DiN]

"Is there a place for an inexpensive ham/technogeek/FOSS solution that could bypass the antics of the for-pay providers?"

That question is just as relevant for the rest of the world as it is for the Navajo nation. What happens when AOL/Time Warner/Microsoft/CNN/MSNBC/Taco Bell and Carl's Jr. take over the world? There is no Net neutrality anymore. Everything we do is being watched, and reported to the corporations of the world. In the future we won't be able to sneeze or fart without someone knowing about it somewhere.

When are we going to get together to start forming our own backbones? We need a fat pipe that will always remain open and free and that can't be taken over by corporate greed. But, how would you pay for such a thing? How would you create it? How would you maintain it?

I'd be willing to pitch in $80 / month for a truly neutral network. What's your price? How much would you be willing to pay to have access to a FREE (as in speech) Internet connection?

Re:All the networks belong to the corporations.

[tobiasly]

What happens when AOL/Time Warner/Microsoft/CNN/MSNBC/Taco Bell and Carl's Jr. take over the world?

Have you been living under a rock for 10 years? Yeah, I'm really worried about AOL and CNN taking over. Your list of companies reads like a laundry list of has-been corporations that were big in the 90s.

Re:All the networks belong to the corporations.

[GuNgA-DiN]

Regardless of the corporate names the issue still remains the same.

Re:All the networks belong to the corporations.

[lionheart1327]

When we get together and form our own backbone, won't this organization be a corporation? Isn't that basically the definition of a corporation?

Re:All the networks belong to the corporations.

[fm6]

Nonsense. Taco Bell is destined to achieve domination after Franchise Wars. I, for one, welcome our new pseudo-Mexican masters.

Re:All the networks belong to the corporations.

[Profane MuthaFucka]

How about Fidonet?

Re:All the networks belong to the corporations.

[Anonymous Coward]

you get this Jennifer Government by Max Berry

Re:All the networks belong to the corporations.

[Anonymous Coward]

When we get together and form our own backbone, won't this organization be a corporation? Isn't that basically the definition of a corporation?

It could be a non-profit co-op. The charter could mandate that it follow certain principles such as network neutrality, no censorship, refusal to hand over data without a court order, etc.

Re:All the networks belong to the corporations.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure no one reading this post owns stock in, works for, or uses the services of any of the companies you listed. We all realize that companies are evil, we're not idiots. But wait, aren't companies just a bunch of people? Or are they like robots or something? Also, who would you pay for your FREE (as in speech) internet connection? The government? I bet you pay less than $80 right now, and you just expressed free speech...

Re:All the networks belong to the corporations.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think we should start local wireless mesh networks,to have a backup infrastructure.This maybe look silly today with cheap and free internet,but the prognosis is that this internet would not exist in the future.It would change,reform in image of restricted cable TV.
I don't say it would be unbearable for common consumer but a decent segment of population would not like it.

Re:All the networks belong to the corporations.

[ThinkingInBinary]

Hell, I'd probably pay at least $100.

I think this is definitely possible. Even on a local level, if we started building, essentially, "neighborhood LANs" among the geeks, we'd be able to transfer files unthrottled and unmonitored, and possibly route around other forms of ISP meddling by swapping connections with someone whose upstream ISP doesn't meddle.

An easy first step might be constructing this as a darknet on top of the Internet, and then, as hardware and funds become available, moving bits of it onto an independent network. It'd be fine if neighborhoods were linked over redundant, encrypted VPN connections through a few regular 'net connections, but within each neighborhood everyone's connected with Gigabit Ethernet. (Oh man, imagine the download speeds on your Linux torrents!)

Anyone else interested?

Re:All the networks belong to the corporations.

[lucifuge31337]

Have you been living under a rock for 10 years? Yeah, I'm really worried about AOL and CNN taking over. Your list of companies reads like a laundry list of has-been corporations that were big in the 90s.

They are the most dangerous ones. They've fooled you into thinking they are has-beens, but they have actually been building their underground empires, and in one case a command and control station on the dark side of the moon. When they are ready to attack, they will coordinate amongst themselves and do so in concert. They have already reached agreements on who gets what when its all over.

Boy are you gonna be sorry you don't have a double-layered tinfoil hat like mine when the shit comes down.

Re:All the networks belong to the corporations.

[GuNgA-DiN]

Yes companies are just a bunch of people. They call get together and form entities.

Entities that sue children... and old people. And who all have one (singular) objective: "Make a profit".

They don't care if they have to kill people, sue people, enslave children, destroy the planet, or throw you in jail.

As long as they make a profit. If people aren't evil... why do they allow the corporations they work for to do evil things?

Re:All the networks belong to the corporations.

[GuNgA-DiN]

I think its possible too. Other people have started down the right path like: FreeNet and WASTE

We need a separate, encrypted darknet that cannot be controlled or contained by anyone or anything. Of course, most of the idiots here would rather point out misspellings with my post or tell everyone how dumb my choice of corporate names are. They are laughing and calling the rest of us tinfoil hat people. But, someday when they wake up they'll be in a jail cell or prison somewhere. They'll be accused of being a "terrorist" and simply disappear. Maybe the MP/RIAA will catch them downloading something and they'll be executed to make an example for other would-be pirates.

Re:All the networks belong to the corporations.

[Anonymous Coward]

In the future we won't be able to sneeze or fart without someone knowing about it somewhere. When are we going to get together to start forming our own backbones?

When this becomes an issue.

I'd be willing to pitch in $80 / month for a truly neutral network.

And yet no corporation will provide it. You, sir, have a profound understanding of human motivation.

Re:All the networks belong to the corporations.

[Areyoukiddingme]

Not just interested, but fascinated. I believe every suburban neighborhood is ripe for a gigabit mesh network.

Gigabit ethernet can be transmitted over twisted pair for 100 meters without repeaters. There are exceedingly few suburban neighborhoods with houses anywhere near that far apart. 5 port gigabit ethernet switches are $35 retail at Best Buy today. That switch lacks only two features to participate in a Viking mesh (I'm assuming, since they don't list them as supported), namely 802.1q and 802.1s support. Fix that*, add an accompanying single board computer in some small form factor (Mini-ITX/Nano-ITX) that can run Linux and the daemon required to manage the Viking network and we have a $300 device that can totally crush the "last mile" problem once and for all. Connect every one of them to 4 neighbors (1 on each side, 1 across the street, 1 behind) with buried cable and make sure your mesh is big enough to reach a NAP (or 2), and we have a massively redundant, fault-tolerant, super high speed network that we own outright.

I could implement a Viking daemon, given a switch with the required 802.1s support that can be manipulated via SNMP. Who here can create fabrication-ready CAD drawings of a case to house a fanless powersupply, the SBC, and the switch? I'm game, if somebody can handle the parts that aren't part of my skill set.

- - -

There are two serious problems with this scheme.

The first is buy-in. Every single neighbor has to buy in, or it doesn't fly. Every mesh network attempt to date has failed because the mesh was never dense enough. I'd venture to say that every mesh network attempt to date has never achieved the status of mesh. They've been, at best, lonely outposts of hopeful individuals.

The second problem is dealing with the local government. Using a blade trencher to link adjacent houses is probably easy, since it's private land. Using a boring machine to link houses across the street is another problem entirely. I'm certain the local government would get its paws into that. I do think it's necessary though, in order to achieve the kind of redundancy that such a network needs. While the network is young, it absolutely can not go down, or grumpy customers will take flight, after costing inordinate amounts of customer support money. I anticipate any number of cable cuts, both accidental and "accidental" and I'd rather the network just keep on ticking. Viking includes fault tolerance and failover as part of its basic concept, so it's just a matter of pulling cable.

I think I've come up with a way to get around problem number one, at least in my area. I'm a member of a co-op that provides electricity service. So are all of my neighbors, for miles around. Deploying under the rubric of that existing co-op, or in an explicit partnership, with all of the familiarity and credibility that brings to the table, seems to me like an ideal way to get around the adoption problem and achieve true mesh density.

I expect the existing co-op could also go a long way towards dealing with local government, for the same reasons. Add in the possibility that the co-op already has personnel skilled in using trenchers and boring machines and it sounds like a match made in heaven.

I just need that anonymous gray box with ethernet ports on it and Viking inside it to go to the co-op board of directors and ask if they're interested.

So. Anybody? Anybody? Bueller?

* One fix is to buy a more expensive switch. Newegg has an 8 port Linksys with the requisite 802.1q and 802.1s support for $200 today. I just think that $300 is the sweet spot for the typical suburbanite (as long as it can be paid in installments as part of the monthly billing). The more expensive off-the-shelf switch requires a cheaper SBC. Tough to find.

what's the long term plan?

[speedtux]

I'm wondering what the long term plan is. Do Navajos want to get wired Internet eventually and (more generally) get connected to civilization? Do they want to continue to lead an isolated rural lifestyle and have the US government pay for Internet access? Or what?

internet simulator

[tobiasly]

Now they're going to have to resort to an internet simulator to get their Brazilian fart fetish porn and interracial gangbang porn!

I'll be out there in 3 weeks

[selfdiscipline]

I did some volunteer web development for a non-profit that deals with a high school on a navajo reservation. A lot of the students only had access to computers at school, and I was thinking that the OLPC project would be perfect for them... although I'm not so enthusiastic with the direction that OLPC seems to be taking.

But anyway, having a mesh-network with cheap netbooks like the OLPC would be a great way to extend access from some single source, if one could be found or created.

Also, I'll be going out there in 3 weeks with some members of this non-profit that I worked for, so I'll get a first-hand look at their situation.

Ask the Telcos

[PPH]

See if the local telco will set something up for them. They can use fixed wireless links from the nearest CO if running fiber costs too much.

The telcos have a vested interest in keeping various local, state and/or federal governments out of the broadband business. Its the old slippery slope argument. First, its just a publicly owned system for the Navajos. Next thing you know, they'll be wiring up _my_ neighborhood. (One can hope.)

This is not a USAC issue.

[Anonymous Coward]

This not due to USAC's problems.

This action is being taken because the service provider and the applicant for the services BOTH conspired to break the rules surrounding the ERATE (Federal program that gives discounts on ELEGIBLE technology, at ELIGIBLE locations, to ELIGIBLE entities).

Wireless services were ONLY supposed to be offered at eligible school locations (classrooms, areas where data needed to transit to GET TO classrooms), but instead the wireless services were installed as a generic community service, some of them winding up in admin areas, boarding halls, and bus barns (all NON-ELIGIBLE areas).

Some folks are making this out to be a case of 'the white man screwing over the indian,' where in reality it is a case of 'the white man catching another white man and the indian breaking rules, and making them pay for their actions.'

For more information, go dig up some article from the Funds for Learning website (www.fundsforlearning.com) or eschoolnews.com

Re:This is not a USAC issue.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget in SLD the L is for Libraries!
I think they could have been a bit smarter in this and still been legal. Branch libraries everywhere! But as an aside I think Mexican Microwave is something to look at.

Political solution

[symbolset]

John McCain to the rescue.

Seriously. He's the man for this job. It's in his domain. It'll be a good test of his influence and his geek credibility.

And he's advertising on slashdot now. That's so cool.

Re:Political solution

[Guppy06]

Because the State of Arizona and the Navajo Nation get along so fantastically well!

Heck, they can't even agree on the time of day for most of the year.

Encryption

[vitaflo]

Probably got kicked off because their encryption was too strong. ISP couldn't sniff their P2P packets.

Getting weaned off welfare is hard

[viking80]

They complain they have to drive up to 60 miles to Page, AZ to get internet access.

It should be trivial to set up a 60 mile WiFi link for pennies compared to satellite internet.
Also, laying down fiber is cheap. A lot of long valleys with a few hundred residents have fiber laid. A little innovation and community effort here can solve this for the better.

Maybe getting weened of the satellite access paid for by your internet tax may actually do them some good.

Re:Getting weaned off welfare is hard

[smchris]

"It should be trivial to set up a 60 mile WiFi link for pennies compared to satellite internet."

Dunno. Our St. Louis Park, MN neighborhood wifi project is dead in the water. Couple quadrants of the suburb still have nifty-looking solar-powered repeaters every other block. The one test quadrant never got adequate through-put.

Violence...

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone is always going to use violence, or be willing to use it, and there has to be some central authority to keep the violence in check. I suppose we could have one big nation, but then we'd just end up back in factions deciding what the world government should be.

Re:Violence...

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the link in the OP. Not factions, but a mesh of communities.

And more importantly, why does that central authority have to be vested in a human being? Why cannot all of the people collectively embody that authority?

Once power is vested in internet-based collective governments, using violence will no longer be a viable method of getting what you want. Don't forget that human resources are moving to the internet as well. So how could someone violently overthrow a huge internet-based organism? Through military attacks on hard drives that happen to contain some of their data?

Try to destroy Wikipedia using violence.

Re:Violence...

[Hyperspite]

You can still terrorize as large an area as you want if you can get the arms and people to do it :P

Chief Crap Flowing Out Ass Here

[Anonymous Coward]

Send more fire water

E-mail or use smoke signals when you have my ration

Thanks,
C-

Correction: smoke signal only, e-mail FUBAR

Oh the government works...

[copponex]

...especially if you're wealthy, WASPy, and in the hole for billions of dollars due to your idiotic business leadership.

How many more years are we going to rob Native Americans of livelihood? Sad fact is, most of the populace will be celebrating Columbus day, not even aware that Native Americans are still the poorest in the nation.

Here's an idea: estimate the value of all real estate in the US and start paying some reparations to the surviving family members. Or at least give them some decent infrastructure since we destroyed their civilization. And if you meet them, they aren't even angry about it... they're probably some of the most patriotic people I've ever met.

Fuck writing your congressman. If you live near a reservation, call them and ask how you can help.

Re:Oh the government works...

[MindlessAutomata]

Great idea. Too bad no one alive today is responsible for the murders and theft of the past, and the Native Americans alive today only exist because of such interference in the first place.

"We" didn't do it. Quit using that word to further your political agendas, Mr. Noam Chomsky Quote. People did it in the past, yes, but that doesn't mean the sin magically transfers to all the people still alive, like some sort of "original sin" from the bible.

Re:Oh the government works...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, Bear Sterns is all WASPs now? Alan Greenberg, Jeffery Epstien, and Gerald Schwartz don't sound like particularly WASPy names to me.

Re:Oh the government works...

[andymadigan]

My family came over here in the early 20th century from Ireland. I'm not responsible for what the British and others did here in the U.S., in fact they treated the Irish as little for than slaves for hundreds of years and yet *somehow* the Irish have managed to become quite successful in their own right since independence. Don't tell me some sob story and then expect them to get more than they already are, which is a lot more than my great-grandfather got.

Re:Oh the government works...

[Just Some Guy]

Screw that. Europeans came to America, kicked some butt, and won it. That's what happens all over the world. I bet the Navaho conquered some neighboring territory at one point or another. Think they sat around crying and feeling guilty for it? Of course not. Get over that stupid idea of reparations - for anything. Should some guy who came from India last week be on the hook for something that happened a few hundred years ago? Just white people? Just people from families here more than 150 years old?

Want to really treat Native Americans right? Dump this broken, unworkable, and racist notion of sovereign territories inside our country and immediately repatriate all of them. Navaho no more - they're now Americans. That means they'd get the same protection as everyone else which is a far cry better than what they have now, and be done with this destructive separatist attitude once and for all.

Re:Oh the government works...

[mrlibertarian]

How many more years are we going to rob Native Americans of livelihood?

"We"? I did not rob Native Americans of anything. It's unfortunate that there is so much suffering in this world, but I certainly don't feel guilty for the actions of my ancestors or my government. If YOU have destroyed someone's civilization, why don't YOU pay some reparations? Fuck writing your congressman. If you live near a reservation, call them and ask how you can help.

Re:Oh the government works...

[mpoulton]

How many more years are we going to rob Native Americans of livelihood?

Are they prevented from participating in our society? Native Americans are less subject to racism than many other minorities in the US. Anyone can move off the Res and join US society -- at the great expense of losing some of their cultural identity.

Here's an idea: estimate the value of all real estate in the US and start paying some reparations to the surviving family members.

The inheritance tax is specifically intended to prevent the perpetual heredity of vast wealth. At every passing, the majority of a rich family's wealth is transferred to the federal government to be distributed amongst society. Why should they benefit to much from what their distant ancestors once owned? Arguments abound on both sides here.

Or at least give them some decent infrastructure since we destroyed their civilization.

We replaced their civilization with a much more technologically advanced one, against their will. Why should we then provide their remaining lands with the technology that our civilization forced upon them? It's yet another outside force imposing change and diluting their culture. Keep in mind that any native American who wants to partake in modern technology is free to do so of their own accord, without it being thrown upon them.

And if you meet them, they aren't even angry about it

The hell they aren't. The traditional native American societies generally treat visitors quite well. However, the deep resentment for past actions is ingrained in the culture and passed through generations. Rightfully so, perhaps -- but whites are not trusted and never truly a part of the community.

Fuck writing your congressman. If you live near a reservation, call them and ask how you can help.

I doubt they want your help. Their civilizations have existed here with success (by some definitions) and sustainability (by any definition) for so much longer than ours, we have little to offer other than assimilation, which they are fighting hard to avoid. The reservations are supposed to be self-governing, independent nations with full power and authority to do as they please within their borders. Autonomy is the small reward the Nations were given for the great price of being herded into small enclaves. Those who stay on the Res do so by choice -- the choice to place their cultural identity and heritage above the conveniences of non-native life, and the choice to deal with tough conditions (socially, financially, and environmentally) rather than be assimilated. They choose to fight assimilation and cultural dilution rather than accept it. This is a difficult but respectable decision. The internet, and computing technology in general, is a direct pipe for cultural dilution. Most of the world sees this as a great benefit -- we mix and share different customs, memes, and thought processes and in doing so we become more homogeneous. For a small civilization working hard to maintain its differentiation from the vast masses surrounding it, this is a detriment to that goal. The decision, and the means to achieve the desired result, should be up to the tribes themselves -- not well-meaning white folks who want to "help" by making their world more like the surrounding world.

Re:Oh the government works...

[Hyperspite]

Well common sense says that if you fuck some people over and recognize it and feel bad about it, you should do something about it. But common sense also says you should not let the kids inherit their parent's sins. Maybe a good solution is to limit the period where reparations are possible to 25 years - a generation. After that, fuck it.

Re:Oh the government works...

[Larryish]

Well spoken.

Affirmative action is the new racism. It is a very effective method of marginalizing non-whites.

"Your ethnicity is a handicap, so here's your cripple check."

But hey, it is just so easy.

What is wrong with saying "Sorry, folks, but the world is a real place and sometimes fucked up shit happens. Deal with it." and letting the chips fall where they may? Oh, no that would be awful! People coming from the bottom would actually have to work hard, and would have to teach their children to value the things they have. And that wouldn't be easy at all. How terrible!

On the subject of "Native Americans", the idea that indigenous peoples have some "right to live however they want" is a crock of shit. Indigenous peoples, minorities, and majority groups all have the same "right to life" as everyone else: the right to live as they are able to, not as they want to.

I was born in Illinois. I am a Native American. Where's my cripple check? Never mind , keep it. I take pride in working for a living.

So can you.

As a result of affirmative action, "minority" people are becoming less equipped to compete on a level playing field.

It is one of the biggest scams alive today.

-

Let the modding-down begin.

Re:Oh the government works...

[NerveGas]

The only thing we're robbing Native Americans of is a free lunch. And often times, not even that.

Many of them (depending on the tribe) are free to do absolutely nothing, and get paid every month in order to do it. I think that MORE than qualifies for "reparations".

What's more, if any of them actually want to get a college education, guess what! They're all but guaranteed to get full scholarships since they're Native American. They can go to college for free, and not have to work their way through it. The catch? They actually have to DO it. That's the tough part.

When my tax money is paying someone to do nothing, and would pay for them to get an education if they actually bothered to go get it, and they still won't... I don't really feel very bad for them.

Re:Oh the government works...

[NerveGas]

Not only that, but the romantic versions of history like to paint it as if the white man was the only bad person in the situation, when in reality, there's plenty of blame on both sides.

Native Americans and their apologists like to forget that Native Americans did things like ride in, kill people, kidnap women and children, and torture and rape them for years because... they started farming on some land.

Re:Oh the government works...

[quadrox]

I agree with the first part of your argument, but not the second. I believe that if these indians want to live separated, let them. If they don't like it, I suppose they can cross the border and become real US citizens, can't they? (I am actually not sure about this, so please correct me if I am wrong). As it is, I think every Indian should have the choice to live with only "his own kind" or become part of the US.

Re:Oh the government works...

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

That's what happens all over the world.

And that's also a major cause of conflicts around the world, too.

We have similar issues here in NZ. It's about admitting wrong-doings and being diplomatic, rather than this antiquated notion of conquering other countries.

Re:Oh the government works...

[KGIII]

apples != oranges

Not that I am disagreeing with you nor agreeing with you but you're comparing two different things entirely unless you want to posit that the Irish were here before the Indians.

Re:Oh the government works...

[KGIII]

I spent some time just before Christmas of last year with the Pueblo People of Taos, New Mexico before heading further to Navaho country. This is a direct and, I hope, unbiased opinion.

The Pueblo People welcomed us, invited us to community events, brought us in, and we had great times together.

Navaho? Err... Not so much. We were warned in Taos before going. The exact phrase was, "They're not very talkative. Not like us."

They, at least, seemed to enjoy being separate.

By the way, I realize what this topic has turned into but we really should all read the article first. We're not paying for their internet, they weren't scamming, and this is money that they have but have been getting screwed it seems. That was, at least, my impression from the article.

Re:Oh the government works...

[couchslug]

"People did it in the past, yes, but that doesn't mean the sin magically transfers to all the people still alive, like some sort of "original sin" from the bible."

Stop that! I can't use your guilt to rule you if you don't buy into the guilt.

Re:Oh the government works...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm so glad to see somebody share my opinion, an opinion I'm not allowed to give, because as a man from mostly European ancestry, I'm viewed as having everything going for me already.

Re:Oh the government works...

[Just Some Guy]

"Your ethnicity is a handicap, so here's your cripple check."

I hate that. Here's an official government pity check because you are inherently less able than me.

What is wrong with saying "Sorry, folks, but the world is a real place and sometimes fucked up shit happens. Deal with it." and letting the chips fall where they may?

I think I came across overly harsh above, and it's not like I don't know that we screwed over the native people pretty badly. After all this time, though, nothing good comes from dwelling on it. Nothing. Let's give the new generation a clean slate.

As a result of affirmative action, "minority" people are becoming less equipped to compete on a level playing field.

If anything, why not bonuses? Finish college and get a check for $10,000 or something. Give incentives for excellence, not endorsement of giving up.

It is one of the biggest scams alive today.

So, how are you on Indian casinos?

Re:Oh the government works...

[Just Some Guy]

What does admitting wrong actually accomplish? Nothing. There's more value from working to establish real equality than from more pointless hand-wringing.

Re:Oh the government works...

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

What does admitting wrong actually accomplish? Nothing.

I'm guessing that's just your personal opinion?

There's more value from working to establish real equality than from more pointless hand-wringing.

Equality? Since when has that been part of this? I think you are confused.

Very hard area to serve

[isdnip]

This is definitely not the kind of problem that can be solved by geeks writing code. It's a physical layer issue, one of the hardest "last miles" in the country.

The Navajo Nation sits in hilly desert country. The population density is very low (it's desert, after all) and it's pretty far from anywhere (the AZ/NM/UT border). Most of the telephone service is provided by Frontier Navajo, who I think bought the tribal telephone company. On the NM side, some is now being served by Sacred Wind, a new phone company using WiMAX, with USF funding, to cover areas with an average population density below one person per square mile. Qwest, using old wireline technology, wouldn't go there; Sacred Wind needs to spend something approaching $10k/home using the latest radio technology. That's a fraction of what wireline would cost - and btw, USAC (the FCC's USF subsidiary) might well have spent more (they've funded >$20k/home for FTTH) if asked; that program is totally out of control. See "Sandwich Isles Communications" for a real horror show.

Frontier's network, which covers most of the reservation, is a traditional rural wireline telco, incapable of providing broadband outside of the villages. And if you want to lease a T1 from them, try $75/mile! So satellite, while hardly ideal, is usually the best option. And the bureaucrats should get off their duffs and fix the problem.

I've done some preliminary studies and it looks like some types of high-powered mesh radio network can cover rustic plains at reasonable cost, but this is in the foothills of the Rockies, not flatland, and the hills get in the way, so it would be very costly (as with Sacred Wind).

Re:Very hard area to serve

[grandbastard]

We have similar terrain down here in the southeast corner of AZ. Wired connections are really only viable if there is already infrastructure to run it.

I was on satellite for 2 years until I built up a point to point wireless connection. Cost is steep. Not only the networking hardware, but the install hardware to provide power and mounting. I've been able to help with the cost by splitting the end wireless out to a few other folks in the area, but there are only 2 other households within 4 miles so it's only a drop in the bucket.

With the monetary resources it is viable. The distance can be covered. No, it isn't cheap. It's a trade off. Folks in the city pay $50/mo for super high speed internet access. Then again they also pay $500,000 for a house on a lot that's smaller than my dog kennels.

Personally I'm happy with the higher expense of services like internet and electricity out in the boonies. Keeps land prices low and the riff raff out.

Correction

[copponex]

Some of the poorest in the nation. The African American population still has the lowest household income.

Re:Correction

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe that is based on US census data which does not typically include reservations as they are "sovereign nations". There is definitely some overlap, but if memory serves, the poverty level on some reservations extends beyond that of the US. Both are deplorable.

The sum of human misery and contentment

[symbolset]

I often wonder... is it a zero sum game? Is it possible to uplift the minimum to the point where eating bark (or pets, or God forbid, humans) is not a consideration even for the least advantaged among us? And if we do that, will we breed ourselves to extinction? Are the divisions better than the unity? Anyone who seeks power will tell you so, but are power seekers to be trusted?

Certainly improving access to information goes a good distance. People living in remote areas can learn that there is within a month's walk a place where food is more plentiful, where their children could have hope of survival. A month's walk is at least 300 miles. That's far enough to improve your fate. The realist in me understands that most of them, given the choice, will stay where they are because the familiar terror of rape and mutilation seems less risk than the terror of the unknown fate. Some few might escape the tragedy in the worst corners of the globe. The Darwinist in me accepts that that's the way it is and those that escape earn the survival of their progeny for the improvement of the genome. It's still sad.

Univerally, though, I have to say that warring factions are where it's at. I know enough of human nature to know that when there is one system under one government then the living conditions will be universally miserable before long, and that condition will persist until the demise of the species.

Forcing our civilized culture on others is wrong. It's bad. It's assimilation. Since this is a geek site, it's a violation of the prime directive. If some individuals reach escape velocity, that's not the same thing as poisoning their culture with our presupposed notions of propriety.

Why should I care?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should I care about the plight of "lack of internet access" for a country with less than (according to wikipedia) 200,000 non-expat citizens?

Piece Of Cake

[Foofoobar]

Yes... you just need one location to get a T1 line in (or some other major pipe). The grab a bunch of wireless trasmitter boxes from someplace like these guys (http://www.ubnt.com/). They all run Linux and you can connect to them wirelessly. Plus they have 3-5 mile trasmissions on some of the high end models. Do it right and you have a Navajo nation connected wirelessly on one T1 line. :)

Re:Piece Of Cake

[karnal]

...you can connect to them wirelessly.

I would hope so!!!

Re:Piece Of Cake

[Anonymous Coward]

"You just need one location to get a T1 line in..."

At what cost? If this is 'off-net'in provider terms- and it sounds as though it is, geographically- then running a T1 from the nearest PoP to the Navajo location could mean a trench hundreds of miles long.

Every mile of this expected path would need the appropriate wayleaves in place (permission from the landowners), would need earthmoving equipment and trained operators hired, would need fibre laid right the way to the chosen provider, or back to a wireless base station and then back to the provider.

Of course, without a GIS survey and a list of provider prices, this is difficult to judge. But you could easily be talking hundreds of thousands of dollars. Its all distance-dependent.

Do they have that kind of money?

Re:Piece Of Cake

[lukas84]

Now, this is entirely US politics, but this whole mess looks rather stupid from my outsider POV.

So you have some independent nation that is in the US - they get reperations in a variety of formms, in this case for internet access.

Now, their corrupt government has conspired with some satellite ISP to get more money into their pockets - the grant money is now cut off.

Why the fuck should this be the USs problems? Heck, they should be thankful that they are allowed to live on their own. If they want Internet, they should start paying for it on their own. Or get some shovels and start digging.

Re:Piece Of Cake

[downix]

Ok, so they should be thankful that the US did not steal the last 10% of their territory after stealing the remaining 90%?

Re:Piece Of Cake

[lukas84]

They lost the war. This story is now long over, and they should be thankful that the Victor allowed them to keep their lifestyle - not add additional demands.

Re:Piece Of Cake

[downix]

So, you admit to genocide and agree to the punishments therein?

Re:Piece Of Cake

[Foofoobar]

One line in can be covered via several different methods. Sattelite, T1, microwaves, etc. but you have to get that initial pipe. That cost cannot be avoided but the method can be cheaper depending on what you want. Also, since it IS the Navajo nation, their land will cover a wide area and they can bring in the pipe from any part of their border so there is a good chance there will be a military base, business district or (even more likely) Casino or Large Scale Bingo hall where existing infrastructure was needed before hand that they can run from.

Re:Piece Of Cake

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you're saying is if I kick your ass to an inch of your life, steal your property, steal your woman, and destroy your lifestyle... you should be thankful that at least I didn't kill you?

Nice, I'm coming to visit.

Re:Piece Of Cake

[lukas84]

A nation and a person are different things.

Re:Piece Of Cake

[lukas84]

I have no idea if there was a genocide or not, because i wasn't there.

What i do know is from history books, and there it looks like the indians simply lost because they didn't have modern enough weapons nor the organization to put a strong unified defense.

I'm sure that both sides committed many atrocities, like it happens in every war.

But i don't think that a rightful winner of a war should be punished just because he won because he was "better".

Re:Piece Of Cake

[downix]

So, mass extermination is just "business as usual"? The use of biological agents within said warfare, just "he was better"?

Indian population before european invasion, over 250 million. Today, under 1 million. That is not warfare. but the definition of genocide. Deliberate exposures to smallpox, the withholding of medicines, the violation of treaties. Your statement here is "Well, they lost, they should just go away and die and we can all forget about them." Talk about ignorance.

If there were a free solution...

[NoobixCube]

every geek in the world would be getting free internet access from some Wiley Coyote style setup in their back yard. Note: Stealing the next door neighbour's unencrypted WiFi doesn't count. That's just too easy.

Re:If there were a free solution...

[negRo_slim]

IP over malfunctioning ACME rocket?

Re:If there were a free solution...

[NoobixCube]

I was thinking something like a dynamite powered ornithopter for dumping boulders covered in data on the desired destination, but that works too :P

Oh, for...

[Guppy06]

"Is there a place for an inexpensive ham/technogeek/FOSS solution that could bypass the antics of the for-pay providers?"

Of course, it's all so simple! We could all build little F/OSS rockets out of plywood, duck tape and bailing wire, putting libre communications satellites based on Pringle's can technology into geosynchronous orbit!

Internet Access Singularity

[Nymz]

Have we reached the point where access to the internet is more important than electricty and running water? Really? 18,000 Navajo families live without electricity, and use kerosene lamps at night, but they can't live without the internet? *

Out of all the grief /. gives Bill Gates, this one you can honestly blame him for. His foundation was the funding instigator of this technolgical leap-froging, and the racist motivation is obvious, as no one would believe he's that ignorant. I don't know why, maybe he can't say no to someone pressuring him to do these things, a guilt trip maybe, who knows, but if he isn't man enough to say no at his age that's even more pathetic than being ignorant.

Re:Internet Access Singularity

[jps25]

I was going to mod you up until you began bitching about Bill Gates, racist motives and the lack of balls.
How you could possibly shift the blame onto Gates is beyond me.
Even worse are those who modded you "Interesting" instead of "Flamebait".

Re:Internet Access Singularity

[Nymz]

I was going to mod you up until you began bitching about Bill Gates, racist motives and the lack of balls.

Thanks, I appreciate specific feedback more than anonymous score or karma. I too feel a bit queasy about /. posts that bash Mr.Gates frequently, so I thought (perhaps mistakenly) the familiar theme would be well served in what I consider an important moral situation.

How you could possibly shift the blame onto Gates is beyond me.

As I pointed out, it was his foundation that instigated this situation, that targeted a people based upon their race. Without his funding, it would not have happened. When you say 'shift' are you implying someone else is more responsible? If you would, whom?

Re:Internet Access Singularity

[plasmacutter]

the racism cuts both ways.

Native americans have abused anti-discrimination laws to double-cross and interfere with scientific organizations and kept potentially ground breaking archaeological finds tied up in murderous litigation for decades.

Re:Internet Access Singularity

[Hal_Porter]

the racism cuts both ways.

Native americans have abused anti-discrimination laws to double-cross and interfere with scientific organizations and kept potentially ground breaking archaeological finds tied up in murderous litigation for decades.

I dunno about this. If people don't want scientists digging up graves on their land and litigate against them, isn't that fair a use of the system?

The deeper point is that the system is philosphy neutral. I and the scientists believe that graves contain just bones. Religious people believe that they have in some way sacred. If you start digging up graves and ignoring other peoples beliefs then there is a conflict which the system should resolve peacefully. But in the US that means litigation.

Re:Internet Access Singularity

[Nymz]

True. And one way to fight racism, and those race-baiters, is to call them on it. (like you just did) Too many people are afraid of being attacked and labeled themselves, with terms like Racist, Homo-phobe, Islamo-phobe, or in the case of anonymous Slashdot moderation... Troll.

Re:Internet Access Singularity

[jps25]

You're welcome.

The Gates Foundation may have picked them because of their race, their history or because they mostly don't belong to the middleclass. The reason, quite frankly, isn't that important and I don't care either. I'm not jealous.
They just gave them computers.
Gates didn't sign the contract with OnSat and Gates didn't make OnSat double-bill the Navajos.
According to the article, the tribe's Division of Community Development picked OnSat and didn't pick the most cost-effective service in a fair bidding process, breaking federal rules and that's why they're now without internet access. Tough.

Somehow I doubt Billy Boy Gates went to the reservoir - his Bear-Killer cocked and loaded - and made them pick OnSat just for the fun of seeing them - 8 years later - without teh interwebz.
Now if it had been Ballmer it could be an elaborate plan to prevent them from using Linux.
Joking aside, it's unreasonable to believe that Gates planned it all just to fuck with them like a little antfarm.

Re:Internet Access Singularity

[plasmacutter]

what is religious about dinosaur skeletons.

One particular instance I remember was in the mid 90's.

They found one of the most in tact t-rex skeletons on indian land, worked out a deal with the tribe for millions, paid them, and extracted the skeleton.

after they go through the expense and time of, you know.. extracting, cleaning, cataloguing, and assembling the skeleton, here comes the tribe again wielding some assanine one-sided law. They tie the thing up in litigation, and "legally rob" the institution in question of the find in the end, selling it yet again.

How long before they try to play repo man again.

Re:Internet Access Singularity

[Hal_Porter]

Oh I see. I thought it was digging up human remains from an Indian burial ground. You're right, this seems more like opportunist scumbaggery.

Re:Internet Access Singularity

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean to say that indians are indian givers? Huh, who'd a thunk it?

Cry me a river, Heart That Bleeds

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody's robbing Indians of anything. The fact is the commonly regurgitated story of the friendly Indian betrayed and destroyed by the evil white man is complete myth. Read some actual history written by the people who lived in that era, not the liberal PC B.S. that blames all the world's problems on the "honkey devils" and ascribes all the world's successes to minorities. The fact is for every injustice by whites toward Indians, there were many more horrible acts of aggression by Indians toward settlers.

There's a reason why Americans build things and produce. There's a reason why Indians, despite being handed the same--if not better--opportunities, sit unemployed in their trailers drunk off their keesters. Indians had this chunk of earth for a thousand years or more and didn't build one road. Didn't invent one piece of infrastructure. We transform this country in a matter of a couple hundred years and now we have to hand over everything?

I could just laugh all this off as liberal delisions if not for the fact you people are brainwashing my children to think that all minorities are peaceful, noble, and great, while white men are evil, mean, horrible, and must be destroyed.

Why not /technomancer?

[zullnero]

Obviously, there's a magical solution as well if there's a FOSS solution to providing wireless internet access to a very large area. It may involve a combination of wireless access point implants that generate a large scale wifi cloud.

Just because it's /. doesn't mean you need to stick "FOSS" in your question. It's the most overused and abused acronym around these parts. It costs money to set up wireless routers, pay the electric bill, get them connected to a provider, and pay that bill as well. We just had our free metro wi-fi turned off because even pumping ads at people wasn't enough to pay for it. Sorry, Libertarians, you're going to need a government solution for this one. Unless the tribe pays the bill or some corporation that has a lot of extra money they don't want to give to their employees is willing to donate it.

Re:Why not /technomancer?

[Anonymous Coward]

And "FOSS" does NOT necessarily mean "free as in no money." It's the most misunderstood (willfully and maliciously, in some cases) by most money-loving people such as yourself. It does, however, in general mean less expensive and fewer ties to more traditional money-grubbing, greedy companies that want you to pay ungodly amounts of money for basic software.

Parent is just a troll.

Re:Why not /technomancer?

[Zorque]

The "F" in "FOSS" stands for free, and that's free as in "Here, I'm giving you this thing for free". Calling someone "money-loving" as an insult is a troll too, by the way, considering 99% or more of society deem money to be crucial to any sort of living.

Right...

[copponex]

...the concentration of wealth has nothing to do with who controlled the land and resources of this country which were taken by force.

We did it, and we still benefit from the economic prosperity of our forefathers. Stop trying to pretend that you'd be where you are without the trampling of indigenous people. Just because you don't want to feel bad isn't excuse enough.

Of course, this doesn't apply if you are the minority or descendant of the oppressed where you live. But that's doubtful given your opinion on the matter.

Re:Right...

[MindlessAutomata]

yes and tell me all about the bourgeoisie and proletariat while you're at it

Re:Right...

[smolloy]

We did it, and we still benefit from the economic prosperity of our forefathers.

You may have done it, but I didn't. I moved to the US 6 years ago, so neither I, nor my wife and child owe anything to anyone. Just because I'm a white westerner doesn't mean I'm guilty by association. And just because I'm a white westerner, doesn't mean I'm guilty due to descending from governments who abused the poor native. I'm Irish. I have a good claim to whinge about my ancestors being abused by a rich European government.

In case your sarcasm detector is broken, I'm not claiming anyone owes me anything. I'm just trying to point out the idiocy (and horrendous complexity) in trying to figure out who owes who what.

Do people who's families have been here for 6 generations owe more than people who have only just arrived? What about kids of mixed marriages? In terms of slave reparations, do we just go on skin colour, or do people have to prove that their ancestors were slaves and didn't move here 50 years ago? What about a slave descendant who married a non-slave descendant -- do their kids get less?

What about someone who is half Native American, a quarter German and a quarter English, married to someone who is half Irish, and half Polish-Jewish? How do you settle the English/Irish, German/Jewish, English/Indian, debts there?

It's complicated to the point of being unsolvable, and it's too old. Forget it.

No one gets government handouts due to the particulars of their parentage.

Re:Right...

[Anonymous Coward]

>Stop trying to pretend that you'd be where you are without the trampling of indigenous people.

Stop trying to pretend that you aren't living in teepees without the using of non-indigenous people's technology.

Stop trying to pretend that you can live twice as long without using their technology.

Stop trying to pretend that, before the "white man" came to your country, you weren't where you are without the trampling of competing indigenous nations.

Stop trying to pretend that you aren't where you are without the trampling of others in your tribe centuries ago.

Basically, stop blaming people for what they didn't do. I never did anything to you. However, your people do plenty to us: You rob us of taxes and land. Just because my forefathers were dumb enough to sign agreements rather than conquer your people completely (like your people did to YOUR OWN DAMN PEOPLE before the "white man") I shouldn't have to pay tax money into a system which you get to wholesale rape for life.

Basically, stop trying to start a race war, leave things at the status quo. Go work on your own damn problems, I'll work on mine, and we'll all get along just fine.

But try to blame me for something that is in no damn way my fault, and, in my country, try to steal land by camping on it for several years and I'll stop hating you.

Yep, I said it. As the "indigenous people" ask for more from me without contributing back, and steal without consequences, my hate grows.

I'll stop the hate when you stop the rape. Deal?

Or you can keep hating us. And I'll keep hating you. Right now I'm at the point where I was disappointed the city next to mine refused to send in the Army to deal with you. But I was pretty damn elated to hear they seriously considered it. It's only a matter of time and we'll have these problems sorted out, either legally, or by force.

For those wondering, I live near Caledonia.

And, for the record, the idea of just being born with the right to land (as natives seem to think is the way it works) is patently ridiculous. If the world worked like that, we'd still be living in clans. Screw that!

Re:Right...

[quadrox]

No one gets government handouts due to the particulars of their parentage.

I am so getting burned for this, but I am afraid you are mistaken. Germany is still paying reparations to a certain group of people because of what happened over 60 years ago.

I do not want to get into an argument about morals or history here, just pointing out that your statement is not correct.

Re:Right...

[Anonymous Coward]

You may have done it, but I didn't

Correct. No one else alive today did it either. All the people who did it are dead. The institutions who did it are still around though, as institutions (governments and companies) outlast people. That's the whole idea of Governments and companies. They provide continuity beyond any one person's death. Think of an institution as an immortal person, whose hands are its employees. Liability doesn't die with the employees but lives on with the institution. Any person can sue another person/government/company for events which cause them disadvantage before they are legally a person. Why single out an indigenous person to be denied that right?

No, you don't owe anything, but your adopted government does. The government existed before you arrived and your arrival doesn't change the government's past actions.

Re:Right...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're benefiting from the U.S. economy, you are benefiting from a system built on the backs of slaves and laid bare by genocide. Your attempt to absolve yourself because you are new on the scene rings hollow.

Re:Right...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm curious, who does the US government owe? Define the subset of the population that will receive money and then we can talk.

Re:Right...

[db32]

Clearly that is the alcohol talking you mick!

I have often wondered why I am supposed to feel guilty about racism/slavery myself. My family didn't show up here until well after that whole slavery business was over. Nevermind that the Irish were treated like shit in the US for a long time in the early days. Cops, Coalminers, Firemen, and anything else that could possibly get us killed. There is a reason that Irish Cop stereotype exists. Then you can also toss in the years of abuse in Europe as well. Really, the only thing that happened is that the bigots continued to become more ignorant and eventually forgot we were Irish and different because we are white. On top of that, while there are plenty of bigots running around making life suck for people, I have never seen any black guys picking cotton in fields. I'm sorry, but (crying minority of the day) has tremendous opportunity here and I don't remember anyone promising an easy time. Seems to me that people crying about how hard it is for a (crying minority member) to get ahead takes away from the accomplishments of minority members of great accomplishments.

Re:Right...

[Rich0]

If you're benefiting from the U.S. economy, you are benefiting from a system built on the backs of slaves and laid bare by genocide. Your attempt to absolve yourself because you are new on the scene rings hollow.

If you're benefiting from ANY economy, you are benefiting from a system built on the backs of slaves and laid bare by genocide. Your attempt to absolve yourself because you are new on the scene rings hollow.

Fixed that for you...

Pretty much every long-lived institution on earth has done something really bad to somebody over the last 1000 years or so. At what point do you draw the line? If you go back far enough the whole planet was one big nature reserve with people living only in something the size of a reservation - should we restore the animals into their proper place as masters of the Earth?

At some point to move forward you need to stop looking backwards. Sure, I'm all for learning from the past to prevent future evils. However, trying to fix the evils of the past isn't constructive - it causes more harm to everybody than it remedies. Suppose Fred's great-great grandfather stole the home of Sam's great-great grandfather? Should we today take Sam's home and give it to Fred? But what if Fred is a great surgeon who donates all his income to charity, and Sam is a bum who squanders everything he gets on booze? What benefit to society is it to distract Fred from doing the good he does to benefit somebody who will just waste what is given to him?

Life isn't fair. Some of us start out with more money than others, and some of us have to make do with what we have. Some of us are born with 180 IQs and others are born mentally retarded. Some of us were born the sons of slaves, and some of us were born the sons of slave-masters. The only thing government can hope to achieve is to allow everybody to make the most of who and what they are - to the benefit of everybody. Shifting around wealth tends to discourage productivity - sometimes it is necessary but it needs to be minimized. It certainly can't be used just to make everything "fair" - because nothing ever is truly fair. Justice may be blind, but God isn't - why we aren't all cookie-cutter people cut from the same mold is a mystery to me, but I didn't create the world - I just have to live in it...

Re:Right...

[Neoprofin]

You're living in a modern global economy posting on an American website supporting that U.S. economy.

Better break out the checkbook.

Re:Right...

[Ardipithecus]

Somehow they were able to figure something out for Holocaust survivors, a surprisingly broad category.

Surely American ingenuity could handle it.

Re:Right...

[smolloy]

Thalidomide is a really good example. In that case the victims and the guilty parties were very easily identifiable. The problem with reparations for slavery or for indigenous people is that there has been so much mixing in the time since the crime was committed, and that inter-mixing (as in my example of the mixed marriage) is what makes it such a complex problem.

My stance is that it is complex to the point of being unsolvable.

Perhaps instead of righting the wrongs of previous generations, we should be working directly on the problems, i.e. instead of giving handouts to people due to the details of their parentage, give handouts based on their wealth and social status -- that way poor white folk get as much help as poor navajo folk. (I understand this is a dumb example, but you get my point -- instead of trying to un-knot the genetic flow of blame through the generations, work on directly on things you would classify as social problems.)

Re:Right...

[Anonymous Coward]

So you aren't living on land taken from native americans without any compensation?

Don't they have a backup network?

[l0ungeb0y]

I know it can be tough to go low-baud after having high speed internet, but don't these guys have a working implementation of TCP/IP Over Smoke Signal?

Re:Don't they have a backup network?

[Carbon016]

"I'm getting some pretty severe packet loss."
"Oh, that's just the wind."

Gonna burn some karma here

[symbolset]

Somebody doesn't want you to read the parent and has modded it down. I can afford a few comments worth of Karma burn so read it and decide for yourself.

Re:Gonna burn some karma here

[Jens Egon]

I think the GP is slightly silly.

Only slightly, but I don't think WAP is the right choice for our new open source/free access/quickly outlawed wireless network.

The mod(s) who are moding you and GP offtopic, however, need to get hit hard with a clue stick. Repeatedly.

Smoke signals for the savages

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should we always support everybody else's lifestyle?

What book is that?

[copponex]

Just checking.

I'll be laughing my ass of when the Chinese knock you off your land and say, "Look at that white trash. Just sits in his trailer all day and drinks. Can you believe they could only support 300 million people on their land?"

Natives worked less hours, had cleaner air, water, food, and lived sustainably. It's better than we seem capable of. But you probably measure wealth in dollars. How's that been treating you lately? 401K looking good? Oh, and that lack of road thing is probably refuted by every piece of archeology in the western hemisphere, unless your definition of road needs asphalt, in which case there were no roads until the 20th century. Which seems kind of inaccurate.

I imagine your kids are getting some kind of education!

Re:What book is that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Books? The Bevier pamphlets for one. James Quinlan's book Tom Quick as another. I have dozens of others whose names escape me at the moment in my personal collection. These were written by people who actually lived in the 18th and 19th centuries and personally battled these bloodthirsty savage Indians.

I bet you will be laughing if China destroys our country, you PC police liberals seem hate America so much. You nutballs won't be happy until America is in ashes and all white people are shipped to concentration camps for destruction (except you suburban white liberals who will magically be spared!)

Indians spent their time fighting each other and crapping in the dirt, not inventing useful things. There are no great Indian authors, inventors, or musicians. Period.

Re:What book is that?

[ppanon]

There are no great Indian authors, inventors, or musicians. Period.

That you know about. Period.

Most North American indian cultures were nomadic or semi-nomadic. They therefore had oral cultures because when you move constantly, you don't tend to pack big libraries around, just the tools you need to survive. So no great inventors in North America - I'll give you that one. But authors or musicians? You really have no idea. Were any of the troubadours in the Dark/Middle Age Europe any good? Most of them would have been illiterate so there's no telling is there? If a first millennium musical prodigy hadn't been interested in writing hymns for the church, there would be little trace of his output except in unattributed folk songs that survived hundreds of years to be incorporated into symphonies and pieces by 18th and 19th century composers, or Paul Simon.

Now mind you, if you go south into Mexico and further, the Inca, Aztec, and Maya empires had roads, irrigation, and cities comparable to a lot of Europe, as well as writing, oh and bloodthirsty religions and governments. Now certainly, they stopped evolving technologically after a certain point, but water monopolies have a tendency to suppress research that might upset the status quo. And when your government controls its people through fear, it tends to have a deleterious effect on the production of art.

What I'm getting at is that the lack of the types of artists and creative peoples that you point to as a sign of their savagery is often more due to environmental conditions. There are for instance very strong artistic and cultural traditions in the Pacific Northwest native communities, even though a large number of examples of those artworks were pilfered by missionaries in their zeal to replace the native religions with Christianity. For generations, the government actively worked to suppress native culture by making its core ceremonies illegal. That tends to have a fairly strong negative impact in the transmission of music and myths in a culture with oral traditions.

Note that the same thing happened with native cultures in the Pacific islands like Fiji, Tahiti, etc. because those cultures also had very rich oral and musical traditions. So your statement is only founded on an ignorance of, and ensured by, white missionaries and invaders.

Re:What book is that?

[Gregory Arenius]

Way to idealize the past. By any reasonable interpretation of the evidence most Natives Americans lived short, brutish miserable lives especially compared to the lives of luxury we live.

In a harsh winter in modern day America we worry about high heating bills but we don't worry about starving to death. If your child gets pneumonia you can get medicine for them instead of just praying that they don't die like an incredibly high percentage of children did in that time period. Also, lets not pretend that before the Europeans arrived that the Americas were some peaceful paradise since in many areas tribal warfare was rampant.

Would you honestly rather live their life then rather than now?

As a comparison...

Would you rather live in: Typical modern American house or a teepee?

Its snowing outside. Whichever of the above abodes you chose would you rather:
Go chop firewood with a stone axe or turn up the dial on your thermostat?

Your child just tripped and broke their leg. Would you rather:
Bring them to a hospital or an Indian herb woman?

You're hungry. There has been a drought in your region recently. Would you rather:
Go to a grocery store where food has been imported from a region of the world that isn't experiencing drought or...starve?

Life wasn't paradise back then however much you wish it was.

And the education comment. Sure, maybe the US doesn't have the highest primary school standards in the world but most of us still learn to read and write and do some basic math which is more than most people throughout history and is certainly more than Native Americans learned as they didn't, for the most part, even possess written language.

Cheers,
Greg

Re:What book is that?

[canuck57]

Natives worked less hours, had cleaner air, water, food, and lived sustainably. It's better than we seem capable of. But you probably measure wealth in dollars. How's that been treating you lately? 401K looking good? Oh, and that lack of road thing is probably refuted by every piece of archeology in the western hemisphere, unless your definition of road needs asphalt, in which case there were no roads until the 20th century. Which seems kind of inaccurate.

I imagine your kids are getting some kind of education!

While I agree about your assertion that the modern day 401K and big city is a rat race hell hole way to live, the native overstate how good they had it back when.

It was a constant fight for food and survival. Often dead at 35 of diseases we attribute to 70 years and beyond today were present. Tooth decay, a simple one today might have killed you in your early teens. Break a leg as a hunter...sit with the women. Or how about Indian wars? Then if you were a female, get to chew rawhide all day to make it soft for the hunter mans shoes. Pain from teeth cracking? Bite harder on the hyde!

Some natives farmed, but without machinery their hands were like planks of beaten wood and often cracked loosing fingers for the hard manual work of cropping. They didn't have horses or combines. Often their migrations were out of need from environmental destruction, not enough vegetation, deer, moose or buffalo. Had to move.

Sustainability came in that bad years of harvest or hunting resulted in a tribe die off to size it right to the environment. Old were often left to die.

Was not all they make it out to be. Today, they die of Jack Daniels and McDonalds fries.

Re:What book is that?

[Anonymous Coward]

How the fuck are you getting +5 for this tripe?

>But you probably measure wealth in dollars.

No, I measure it in lifespan. Go ahead and live like your people did 500 years ago. If you aren't dead within 50 (more like 40!) years, let me know.

>Natives worked less hours, had cleaner air, water, food, and lived sustainably.

Apart from the last one (which is debatable, because you're sustaining nature, and definitely NOT yourselves) this is all clearly fucking total lies.

People die sooner because they work too hard and drink poison water (and eat poison food). They also die sooner because they don't have access to quality medical care. That's why indians had short lifespans centuries ago, and that's why those of us smart enough to progress have longer lifespans. Unfortunately, we are too damn humanitarian and gave the gift of longer lifespans to ungrateful fucks such as yourself.

>I imagine your kids are getting some kind of education!

Clearly a HELL of a lot better education than you ever got. Christ, I've had discussions with TREES smarter than you while high on weed, and, side by side, people would STILL think I was more intelligent than you.

Re:What book is that?

[Anonymous Coward]

"by making its core ceremonies illegal"

Like, ripping out a beating heart from a living body?

The rest of your post is too full of nonsense to address.

Re:What book is that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Natives worked less hours, had cleaner air, water, food, and lived sustainably.

I can work less hours than a hunter-gatherer, and use the money earned to buy better food and cleaner water than he could find. If I am sick, I can buy pills that will make me well. If I am bored, I can travel further in the next 24 hours than he could in his entire lifetime.

I'll grant you the point about cleaner air, but I'd prefer a trivial level of pollutants to the absence of modern medicine. The sustainability part ... I don't know about native Americans, but aboriginal Australians and Maori definitely hunted several species of megafauna into extinction.

Go and try the hunter-gatherer lifestyle before you start singing its praises.

Re:What book is that?

[greyhueofdoubt]

Um, look, I hate to tell you this, but native americans fought major wars with each other, wasted thousands upon thousands of tons of meat, cheated on their partners, killed their leaders, raided other villages for food and women, etc. just like every other damned human civilization on earth at some point. They had clean air and water because they weren't numerous enough to pollute an entire continent. Did they live in a more harmonious relationship with nature than most of us do today? Probably. And so did the aboriginal cultures of ALL our ancestors at an early enough stage in their development.

The first things I look at when I am comparing countries' standards of living are life expectancy and infant mortality rates. By those measures, yes: we are doing quite well for ourselves. I can honestly say that I would rather be me right now than a native american 300 years ago, or a magdalenian hunter-gatherer in what is now spain or italy. I do have it good now, and yes it is the result of 200 years of exploitation of the land and people. I can't change that. And I'm not going to try. And here's why.

I treat people according to their actions and intentions. I try to treat people as individuals instead of groups, as in, black people, fat people, italians, poor people. We have all been told why negative stereotypes are bad. But positive stereotypes are also bad, and they are very much racist when used along racial boundaries. And judging someone based on their ancestors is a form of racism, in that they are both based on your parents (something you cannot control).

What you said probably felt like a compliment to native americans, but it was not. When, for example, an asian person is good at math, he/she is not applauded nearly as much as other people. Why? Because everyone knows that asians are good at math, right? So it stands to reason that he/she didn't have to bust their ass studying for years to learn what they know. Except that they did bust their ass the same as anyone else. Positive stereotypes steal personal achievements from people just as much as negative ones.

My point is that we need to judge people, for better or worse, based on their personal actions and intentions. The current anti-french craze bugs me, the anti-muslim craze bugs me, and your rose-colored version of native americans bugs me. A native who lives in harmony with nature and lives sustainably should be applauded for HIS OWN actions, and a native who commits crimes or otherwise displeases society should be judged as an individual just like everyone else. It matters not that they have sovereign nations. We should treat them the same way we treat frenchmen or poles or russians. Which is to say, we should treat them as people who were born far away maybe, and speak another language maybe, but first and foremost as humans who are accountable for their actions.

I don't respect or disrespect any nation, including native american nations like the navajo. I deal with people. We can't have a discussion about this issue until people can start treating native americans as human beings instead of storybook stereotypes, even if it's a 'good' stereotype.

End of rant. Now all the people who think it's OK for Carlos Mencia to make fun of mexicans but that white people cannot can go ahead and mod me down.

Not posted anonymously for reasons of personal integrity.
-b

Re:What book is that?

[ppanon]

Like, ripping out a beating heart from a living body?

For some, yes (my post did not omit the blood-thirsty religions), as well as massive parties where people exchanged food and gifts. Instead we replaced that by taking their children away and giving them to monks and priests who physically and sexually abused them to help them "adapt" to Western society.

Then those priests couldn't do it anymore and had to do it to white people instead. Nobody cared as long as it happened to injuns but boy did people scream when it happened to white folks!

125 Miles Anyone?

[Swampcritter]

How about doing something like taking a BiQuad Antenna and those old Direct TV or 10 and 12-foot Satellite dishes and turning them into long-range 2.4GHZ transmitters/receivers? This is open desert area we are talking about, so line of sight is definitely available for such devices.

How-To: Build a WiFi biquad dish antenna
http://www.engadget.com/2005/11/15/how-to-build-a-wifi-biquad-dish-antenna/

By taking the technology and means of how it was done before (as seen the in above how-to), one could most likely expand the network by adding in the means of a Merski Wireless Mesh Network, thus keeping the costs down to a minimum (utilizing the ad-supported capabilities of the Merski solutions).

Moderation abuse?

[symbolset]

Ok, so I get how some people have an axe to grind. Partisan politics and all that. I get that. Look, though. Moderation is supposed to be fair. The Navajo Nation is at mostly in Arizona. I have friends on the reservation there. John McCain is the Senator from Arizona. How in the world (to use a nice word) is the parent off topic? I've been to the Navajo Nation. I've been to the Apache Nation. They could both use his help, and all the other help they can get. Does the fact that he's currently a candidate for President eliminate all of the good he could do for these people? They need his help and he has it to give. Let's encourage him to give it.

mmmm fiber

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't they get some fiber pulled in with all of that casino profit?

Know something

[symbolset]

No matter how little, if you would venture an opinion, do try to know something about the matter. OK?

You bear some burden

[symbolset]

If you enjoy some benefit from the resources that were gained from the trail of tears then you are at least a little at fault, even today.

Re:You bear some burden

[D'Sphitz]

Wrong. Don't tell me I should feel guilty for something that happened 150 years before I was even born, not even a little bit guilty. This is the world I was born into, don't tell me I need to feel guilty because of my skin color.

I'm sorry for what happened to the ancestors of Native Americans, just as i'm sorry what happened to the Jews during the Holocaust, i'm sorry for Rwanda and Bosnia and The Crusades and i'm sorry for what Hussein did to the Kurds and i'm sorry for Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge and i'm sorry for 9-11, and as sorry as I am that any of it happened, I had nothing to do with any of it, so I won't be railroaded into feeling guilty under the guise of "healing". It's not healing, it's called breeding contempt.

Please stop saying "Native American"

[unassimilatible]

Indians actually prefer to be called Indians, or by the name of their tribe, if that matters. I'd prefer to listen to them, rather than what guilty-feeling white liberals think I should say.

Besides, even the T Tex isn't really a native American. They walked here just like the Indians did. Indians just got here earlier than I did.

Re:Please stop saying "Native American"

[rpillala]

I use the term because I'm from India. People not from India aren't Indians. Call me old fashioned.

Re:Please stop saying "Native American"

[aplusjimages]

Well I use the term because I'm from Indiana. People not from Indiana are not Indians. Call me any time.

Re:Please stop saying "Native American"

[Anonymous Coward]

Indians actually prefer to be called Indians, or by the name of their tribe, if that matters.

I suspect that some number of "Real Indians" from the country of India find it offensive that "Native Americans" want to be called Indians - when they've never been there.

Err, probably not.

Re:Please stop saying "Native American"

[mysidia]

By now we should stop making a distinction and merely call some people "Tribal Americans", only because they participate under distinct "Tribal" culture and live under unique local provisional organizations called "Tribes" (instead of Cities) and provisional governments called "Tribal Government" instead of "City Government"

Because much of the population inthe US is "Native American" now.

I.E. They were born in the US, and their traceable ancestry have been born in the US.

Re:Please stop saying "Native American"

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh? Indians live in India, in Asia; not America. What the hell are you talking about?

Re:Please stop saying "Native American"

[kat_skan]

People not from India aren't Indians. Call me old fashioned.

Yeah. Considering folks have been calling them that since the sixteenth century or so, it's safe to say you are the very definition of old fashioned.

Nonsense

[Jane Q. Public]

Monoculture society, like large agricultural monoculture, is anti-survival. In general a monoculture, lacking the strength of diversity, is prone failure from the first serious malevolent force or organism to threaten it. A multitude of famines throughout history has proven this for agriculture; there is very good reason to believe -- actually there is also good historical evidence -- that this concept has a close analogy with human "cultures".

While one worldwide society might SEEM like a worthwhile goal and good idea on its face, the shortcomings are insidious and subtle but all too real, and not just potentially but almost certainly disastrous in the long run. It is NOT a good idea.

--
"The greatest dangers ... lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding." -- U.S. Justice Louis Dembitz Brandeis

Re:Nonsense

[Anonymous Coward]

So we should just get rid of this internet thing?

A trend toward monoculture is happening. International bodies are expanding not contracting. Workforces are distributing. People are traveling. Certainly you aren't recommending that we get rid of all this and go back to 1900, are you?

Now the question is: shall we have some monolithic world government as some sort of vast authority over us all? Or shall we build a mesh of communities which recognizes the interconnectedness of the world while also maintaining the integrity of even the smallest community?

Suggest you take a closer look at the Metagovernment site and see what you are arguing against.

We don't need nations to preserve cultures, and in many cases nations act against the interests of cultures who do not have power within that nation.

Wrong on at least one point:

[Jane Q. Public]

Someone in power will in fact seek unity, not division. They do this by trying to unite people under their immediate authority against a distant enemy. They do this because it puts them in more control and gives them more power over this home group.

The more distant and more abstract -- and more powerful -- the enemy is perceived as being, the more potential "unity" against this "enemy" that can be achieved close to home, and thus more central power can be asserted.

The threat of "terrorists of uncertain origin" is one excellent example of the use of this technique. Sound familiar?

Re:Wrong on at least one point:

[sumdumass]

The counter to that is when someone is attempting to stay in power. You attempt to divide your detractors which stops a united force from toppling your power.

There is also the brutality options that makes people very afraid of challenging you which also negates both of the other scenarios we put forth.

Don't know much about geography...

[westlake]

This is open desert area we are talking about, so line of sight is definitely available for such devices.
.

allow me to introduce you to the geography of the 26,000 square mile Navajo Nation

We?

[leereyno]

Who is "We" white man?

Do you mean dead people whose skin was a shade not unlike your own?

Crying about the crimes of the long departed and allowing LOSERS and CRYBABIES to trick you into feeling personal guilt and responsibility for those crimes out of superficial resemblance to the perpetrators is RETARDED.

The notion of group responsibility is a leftist canard. You are responsible for your own actions, not for the actions of others, and certainly not for the actions of people who were dead and buried many decades before you were ever born.

You are not guilty on account of your race. You are not responsible on account of your skin color. In the saga that was the colonization of North America, the guilty and the innocent are all long dead and buried. If you prefer to curse the memory of the guilty then don't let me stop you, but don't let yourself be fooled into thinking that their guilt bloodies your hands, or that the descendants of the victims from that era have inherited that victimhood and are therefore deserving of appeasement and propitiation. My ancestors were enslaved and murdered by the English for centuries. The British people don't owe me any apologies and they don't owe me a dime. I would be insulted and disgusted if either were offered.

And please, stop quoting Chomsky, it just makes you look gullible.

Re:We?

[Anonymous Coward]

you're a fuckwit

Please stop saying "liberal"

[leereyno]

While the theft of the term "liberal" by leftist anti-liberals did take place many decades ago, it is still a term that does not apply to them and should not be used to describe them.

A liberal is someone who believes in liberty and who pursues policies that create, expand, and protect liberty. A leftist is someone who believes in tyranny, and who pursues policies that create, expand and entrench tyranny.

When you allow the left to choose the terminology by which they will be described, you are hand them a victory. You don't call a child molester a "boy lover." You don't call a rapist a "persistent suitor." You don't call a terrorist a "freedom fighter." And you sure as hell don't call a leftist a "liberal." To do so tarnishes the good name of the men and women who have fought and died to bring the light of freedom into the world.

Re:Please stop saying "liberal"

[Hal_Porter]

While the theft of the term "liberal" by leftist anti-liberals did take place many decades ago, it is still a term that does not apply to them and should not be used to describe them.

A liberal is someone who believes in liberty and who pursues policies that create, expand, and protect liberty. A leftist is someone who believes in tyranny, and who pursues policies that create, expand and entrench tyranny.

When you allow the left to choose the terminology by which they will be described, you are hand them a victory. You don't call a child molester a "boy lover." You don't call a rapist a "persistent suitor." You don't call a terrorist a "freedom fighter." And you sure as hell don't call a leftist a "liberal." To do so tarnishes the good name of the men and women who have fought and died to bring the light of freedom into the world.

Excellent post. Mod it up!

Re:Please stop saying "liberal"

[KGIII]

Thank you VERY much for the post. I, personally, have adopted the Gliberals for the leftiest.

The very idea that we're turning more and more into a nanny state makes me want to cram a sharpened stick into my eye but by the time I get said stick ready there will be a law requiring anyone to register their sharpened sticks. "Liberals" my ass.

Re:Please stop saying "liberal"

[Nymz]

I would moderate your post up as 'interesting', the current score of '1' seems really low.

Re:Please stop saying "liberal"

[roguetrick]

The idiocy espoused here is based entirely on the toxic combination of ideas that social and economic issues go hand in hand and blind political partisanship.

Tax systems do not decide how a government censors it's people and liberty isn't the freedom to create a tyranny of the majority or a tyranny of the rich.

Of course it is not as if I plan on actually addressing the rhetoric copy and pasted into this post, the poster has already chosen his "team" and is sure that it is the true path to a wonderful life.

Re:Please stop saying "liberal"

[music_man_420]

GAAHAHAAAAAAEERERAA!!!

Sorry for the exasperation, but you have it wrong too. I see this mistake constantly on Digg and /. and it is really starting to piss me off. Right and left wing politics are solely a measure of ECONOMIC policy. They are NOT a measure freedom. You are all very aware of communism and the problems therein but how many of you are familiar with right-wing authoritarianism? There are many examples of governments like this and they aren't any more friendly then their left-wing counterparts. Just as there is right-wing authoritarianism, there is also left-wing libertarianism. Calling leftists authoritarian is mixing terms. Right-left and authoritarian-libertarian are completely different scales.

Re:Please stop saying "liberal"

[aplusjimages]

To do so tarnishes the good name of the men and women who have fought and died to bring the light of freedom into the world.

Depending on which side you are on, those men and women could be seen as "freedom fighters" or "terrorist" as well as "traitors". Perspective is a hell of a drug.

Re:Please stop saying "liberal"

[Eternauta3k]

A leftist is someone who believes in tyranny, and who pursues policies that create, expand and entrench tyranny.

Don't mistake social policies like those in Northern Europe (and to some degree the USA) with full-blown communism.

Re:Please stop saying "liberal"

[Anonymous Coward]

FLAMEBAIT?!

Not that I necessarily agree with his point. As far as I now, what he calls a liberal is - currently, at least - a libertarian. But well, the expression might actually have been changed. He didn't proved his point nor showed any examples, but it's hardly a flamebait.

Liberal (leftist?) bias here sucks. Really.

Re:Please stop saying "liberal"

[Descalzo]

Depending on which side you are on, those men and women could be seen as "freedom fighters" or "terrorist" as well as "traitors". Perspective is a hell of a drug.

Not so. In order to be a freedom fighter, you must fight for freedom. Many of these terrorists have been quite explicit in their goals. Freedom isn't one of them.

Do you know the difference?

[symbolset]

Do you know the difference between all the heinous offenses you listed and the Trail of Tears?

You're still heating your house with the natural gas that yields from under the homes they were driven off of.

Do you get it now?

Re:Do you know the difference?

[D'Sphitz]

What do I have to do with that? I pay my gas bill. This certainly isn't the first or last time someone has lost land by force.

Re:Do you know the difference?

[symbolset]

It's pretty clear that you don't get it and you aren't going to. The people who owned those resources once resent your use of them, as they do your use of the coal that drives your electric lights. They resent it because they were promised with "the full faith and confidence of these United States" that the promises offered to them had some basis in fact. Other people around the world today are wondering about the value of that phrase and finding it not reassuring for this reason among many others. This doesn't serve your interests at all. You would probably prefer that we kept our promises in the long run.

Re:Do you know the difference?

[seriesrover]

No, we understand your arguement - its just that its utter flawed.

If everyone decided to look back in history and accumulate all the losses to the point that are currently present it would be insanity. Should the English demand money from the Italy and Norway because they invaded them 2000 years ago? Perhaps my parents should pay me money for spending it on their wedding instead of paying for my college? How far do you go back and how do you calculate it?

Look, shit happens. Every now and again really bad shit happens. For those that did have influence you put them on trial and let justice prevail. You then try to help those that were wronged. But one thing to gurrantee *not* moving on is to blame people that had no influence on it. People need to learn that its not what cards you get given but how you play your hand that counts.

Re:Do you know the difference?

[KGIII]

I'll bite but only a nibble. I've been meaning to get some sleep.

First, I fully and knowingly drove down the trail of tears just 6 months ago. Quite a bit of it.

Along the way the wife and I shopped, did business, and generally participated in the various rural areas as we strove to find the Real America.

I gave them what I owed them. My debts are repaid. I'm also Micmac.

What did I owe them? I owed them respect. In a few areas we'd meet people and, sure enough, it was off to fix a computer. Why? I don't OWE them anything. I owe that to all people, regardless of race. What I don't owe is respect to an individual.

Most of us don't think you owe us anything. In fact, I don't know any that express more than sorrow for the past. That's why it is the trail of tears (I still refuse to capitalize it) and not "The Unending Financial Support that Causes More Harm Than Good."

You might want to read a few of my other posts in this thread if you want to really get a perspective from where I'm coming from. I'm not going to retype it all out here. Suffice it to say, I think I know what I speak of here.

It isn't ANYTHING that you or anyone else can control that keeps them on the reservation other than racial pride and stigma associated with those who leave and, for the most part, most places are far more open than those found in the midwest. When you get near the Four Corners region, going westerly, you start to encounter this but this isn't the case everywhere.

In many cases, the tribes actually make money as a whole based on a variety of means that they're free to allow on their reservation but are much more restricted on US soil. They mostly don't want to give that up and they sure as hell don't want to leave it when it has been a success.

That, the last point, is moot. What they sure as hell don't want is anyone assuming that they can't do for themselves. They don't want you there holding out a check, offering a job, offering reparations. They wanted, and in many instances got, an appology. Then they either want to be treated like humans or left alone.

Before you go around screaming what the Native Americans want, need, or deserve you might just want to ask an Indian. We're human, if we want it we can ask.

Re:Do you know the difference?

[seriesrover]

Um, where is this God given right to ownership of any resource? There is ownership in terms of legal\political notions but thats it. Heck, aren't there even Native Indian sayings that effect? You conclusion would lead to rollback of just about every war that has ever existed to some arbritary point in time.

So right!

[Legion_SB]

...the concentration of wealth has nothing to do with who controlled the land and resources of this country which were taken by force.

And, of course, native American tribes gained all of their land and natural wealth by divine grant, with absolutely no use of force to gain power or status over their peers and rivals, right?

Re:So right!

[KGIII]

Nah, they walked here across the ice bridge from Asia. This is not very appropriate but, well, that was Mother Nature's way of importing cheap labor. What? Well... Someone had to clean up after the ice age. I realize that seems snarky but it certainly seems logical though I probably could have put it a wee bit better.

Re:So right!

[jafiwam]

And, if you mean "Clean up the Ice Age" as in "Wiped out all the megafauna on the continent" then sure.

When you red-skinned wanks get busy with the DNA reconstruction so I can see the Giant Ground Sloth in zoos I'll think about reparations. Until then, fuck off, you did the same shit only weren't bright enough to leverage resources. Clearly unfit to occupy such a nice continent is not a good way to go through life son.

Satellite access

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a WildBlue direct satellite connection. It is unreliable and noisy. Sometimes the gaps in service last foe hours. Since Yahoo has given up on Postel's Law, I rarely can send email to someone who uses Yahoo email.
One just gives up on such things. It's been ten years since I tried to create an an account at Slashdot. The repeated failures from a poorly set up site made me decide that I do not care.
The USA in #15 in internet accessibility so we are a third world country in decent speed internet access.

Start building independent communication infra.

[Anonymous Coward]

Certainly there is enough money to start building independent communication infrastructure. Just bring together interested parties and start doing it. You need a solid plan.

Put up a number of wireless towers and fibers from neighbour states for starters.

Barrage balloons + WIMAX?

[waferhead]

Surplus barrage balloons and WIMAX should cover a bit of ground in a hurry... Solar power should be relatively easy in that location for the high altitude repeaters.

If you have hills, you need the transmitters on the high ground. 10-15K feet should do.

Sacred Navajo Internet Taxes - and Hillary!!

[Charles Wilson]

Back in January of this year, I had the good luck to be in Bloomfield, NM, making tours of the sights and etc. Saw the Aztec ruins and got the tour. I heard a lot about the "Sacred Navajo Land". Well, I paid the sacred Navajo Gas Tax and more. Hillary came through the area! The Sacred Navajo Elder stated that his family shook her hand and it felt very powerful. Hillary talked a lot about Sacred, Sovereign Navajo Rights and how much she supported these Sacred, Sovereign attempts by the Sacred, Sovereign Navajos. Maybe she could negotiate the Sacred, Sovereign Navajo Internet Rights. CW

Re:Sacred Navajo Internet Taxes - and Hillary!!

[damburger]

Those native bastards, charging you a tax. Its a crime, really, isn't it?

Re:Sacred Navajo Internet Taxes - and Hillary!!

[Charles Wilson]

Attention Dopes! If you had ANY idea of the politics of the Navajos, you would cry. Hillary DID come out to give a little speech and touch base with the Bribe Leaders...uhhh...Elders and make it appear that she cared. She used the word "Sovereign" quite a bit. The Navajos themselves had little to say about it. So it comes as no surprise that there are problems in allocating Bribe Rights and Bribe Benefits. PS: All of the talk of "Sacred, Sovereign Rights" didn't stop the Giant Electrical Towers from being built between the only major road and the beautiful rock formation and landscapes. Wake up and smell the reefer. CW

Re:Sacred Navajo Internet Taxes - and Hillary!!

[Breez911]

The alien invasion of The Chaldean Bastards, Led by Christopher Columbus, by divine rite of pope Alexander VI, stole; our identity, naming us Indian; Stole our lands; indoctrinating us with the Chaldean religious faith. establishing their laws in the land of The Great Spirit!

Why not cut off our tongues, so they we may not bear witness against you! Put our tongue with the rest of your spoils of war against us!

Be careful white man! For The Great Spirit, father of all words, hath warned you whom call yourselves Christian, And has promised the free people; their Land, The land of The Free! will again be free,

Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you. For, lo, I raise up the Chaldean's, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwelling places that are not theirs. They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.[KJV HABAKKUK 1:5-6-7.]

Is It not Written:

Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? [MATTHEW 12:25-26.]

It won't! It is already falling appart!

Definition of sovereignty

[Anonymous Coward]

A nation is not "sovereign" unless it has its own military, its own foreign policy, and its own taxes. If somebody else controls the military, foreign policy, and most of the taxes, the nation is not sovereign.

pinko fairy propaganda

[thetoadwarrior]

Nations aren't a problem. In a way yes it divides people but having one nation will still result in divides. There have always been divides. That is who humans and most animals work. You have your group and they have their group. That won't change ever.

white man's fault again

[timmarhy]

clearly this is the white man's fault for showing them the pleasures of the internet, then failing to give it to them for free.

Wouldn't You Need To Run a L-O-T of Cable?

[reallocate]

The Navajo Nation is larger than a considerable number of states. It is sparsely populated. Many (most?) residences do not have landline telephone service, i.e., there is no landline for them to access. Wouldn't it be necessary to run cable to each of these homes and businesses and schools?

Re:Wouldn't You Need To Run a L-O-T of Cable?

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Look, power hungery politicians ("Let's provide Internet for dem farmers and udder folk out in cuntryside!") started heaving billions at private business, and some took it and maybe did it fraudulently.

It's a free country. You don't have to go live in the boondocks. You can, of course, if you want to. But don't whine when you can't get easy access to Internet. Or Phone. Or natural gas. Or electricity. Or even, in some cases, a passable road.

That's the hard fact of reality. They're being "cut off" from something they would, possibly, have never gotten on their own. You can guy satellite Internet anywhere. Why it's being spoon-fed to them by politicians so they can play "see what good things I do!" games at the next election, I don't know.

Oh, wait. That was the reason.

Re:Wouldn't You Need To Run a L-O-T of Cable?

[Polumna]

Possibly, it is being "spoon-fed to them" exactly because they didn't go live in the boondocks as a matter of exercising their rights to in a free country. I mean, they are in the boondocks, of course, so it would be insane to declare that they should have complete infrastructure built up. But seriously, how dare you accuse them of "whining"?

I also take exception to your making this some kind of political feel-goodery. I would fully support my tax dollars going to providing some form of internet access to the Navajo nation not because it would make me feel good, like some kind of reparations. The hard fact of reality, as you put it, is that native American populations are dropping like a rock, and a lot of that is because they DO leave the reservations because of things like this.

I am more uncomfortable being a part of ongoing ethnocide-by-apathy than I would be with a few fewer dollars per year. Because this is a free country, I fully respect your, or anyone else's, right to have a different opinion or outlook. However, I can't even come up with a word good enough for someone who thinks a relocated and invaded culture is "whining about" their plight like they had a choice in whether or not they're "cut off". Jesus, look at a map. The Navajo nation is huge and in the middle-of-nowhere. Do you really think they're the ones that drew the borders?

Re:Wouldn't You Need To Run a L-O-T of Cable?

[Ex-MislTech]

Wouldn't it be necessary to run cable to each of these homes and businesses and schools?

No, Wireless is doable.

If third world countries with no Indian casinos can do
cellular as their primary communications, then the tribes
can do it too if they contract it out but monitor it
like a hawk for corruption.

Re:Wouldn't You Need To Run a L-O-T of Cable?

[Ex-MislTech]

Additionally, the 60 mile run is just to cable up the
wired Infrastructure that is already in place connected
to the satellite system.

Ideology As Usual

[reallocate]

Ah yes, I've so enjoyed the amazingly efficient and terribly polite service I get from from that outstanding example of free enterprise, my cable company.

Then, how 'bout them airline companies, eh?

You are allowing your ideology to shut off your critical faculties.

The profit motive is no guarantee of competence.

As the Post article notes, the paperwork involved here is apparently quite complicated, leading to errors. I'd suggest that this be the first avenue of investiagtion.

No Wok-WiFi?

[Anonymous Coward]

What, no Pringles can wifi solutions or a Wok-Wifi extender http://www.eggxpert.com/blogs/killergator/archive/2007/08/10/wifi-wok-boost-your-wifi-signal.aspx placed every 15-20 miles?

Just place an old computer running linux on both ends to perform complete encryption of the data sent over the air.

I'm looking at this solution for my mountain hideaway. There's nothing for 50 miles. Heck, I'll even pay the complete cable internet bill for the people who allow me to piggyback on their connection.

By Your "Logic"...

[reallocate]

By your, umm, logic, hardly anyone on the planet merits a description as a native resident. Unless you live somewhere near the Olduvai Gorge, your ancestors went walkabout.

The word "native" is typically applied to people who appear to be the first, i.e., original, inhabitants of a territory. Today's Indians are descendants of the first people to successfully settle in the Americas. How those folks got here is irrelevant.

Re:By Your "Logic"...

[shokk]

It matters because there is evidence showing that the natives arrived in waves and that the ones we think are the original peoples merely migrated all over the previous culture who migrated over that another previous. You imagine that the first culture to walk across the Bering Strait walked all the way to the Southern tip of South America without settling. The truth is they settled somewhere past the Straits and the next group of people into the Americas would have settled over them, and so on for thousands of years, pushing and driving the previous inhabitants further south until there was only the Southern Ocean.

We are each drawing our own line concerning how far back we wish to care.

Re:By Your "Logic"...

[reallocate]

>>"It matters because there is evidence showing that the natives arrived in waves..."

Why does that matter at all, in any conceivable manner?

Again, by your logic, the first female across the strait who gave birth has a right to be called "native", and no one else.

People have a right to call themselves whatever they wish. In the end, names are only words and have nothing to do with reality.

Dialup and satelite phones

[davidwr]

Dialup at 33K or even 14K works fine if you block active content and multimedia.

Same with satellite phone only it's a bit more pricey.

It sounds like either or both is available to most households.

How's the cellular coverage out there?

Re:Dialup and satelite phones

[isdnip]

Cellular coverage is limited. Verizon Wireless shows little coverage on the AZ side, spotty on the NM side. ATTM shows a little "partner" coverage (other cell companies) on both sides, but lots of unserved areas. It's the same radio problem; it's a hard area to cover.

It wouldn't surprise me if dialup were not readily available either. Getting local numbers from Frontier is probably not easy (they want to protect toll revenues) and so it wouldn't surprise me if they kept it to themselves. In fact I don't even see local Frontier numbers in some areas.

There goes your karma :(

[davidwr]

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Ah, the solution to that

[davidwr]

Maybe if Congress restricted its telecommunications grants to schools and the like it would free up money for the schools to spend on teachers and other educational materials.

Oh, wait....

The same could be said for most nations on Earth

[davidwr]

The United States, and before it other major world powers, have a long tradition of paying for projects in other sovereign nations.

It's one way to maintain influence and exert control.

I thought it was "Injun"

[Anonymous Coward]

At least in Texas.

Re:HAM is The answer

[Anonymous Coward]

They are a nation. They have a communications commission. The Navajo should simply change the rules for that within their nation.

Internet use over ham can be restricted to tribal members. End of problem.

Who will get upset? The jackass provider who has threatened the entire Navajo nation with this shutdown.

Navajo National Socialism

[Baldrson]

Well, the poor Navajo Nation has lost its internet access, eh? Sounds like a step forward for human rights! Everyone knows that nationlism is the cause of genocide...

Why not fix the contractual problems?

[AK Marc]

USAC almost never shuts down funding (and they never, even in this case, shut down service). Someone broke some serious rules in a flagrant manner. Unbreak the rules, get certified, and funding will resume. It's simple. Oh, and if the carrier wasn't an idiot, they'd be able to provide "free" services to areas that want coverage but aren't USAC areas and still not get into trouble. How do I know? Because GCI does it with satellite services in Alaska now. They've been doing it for years, and have been reported top USAC for it and investigated, so I know it's legal (at least according to the USAC people who looked). So my guess is that the easiest solution is to fix whatever got the USAC funding stopped and do essentially what they were doing before.

The better question is

[Anonymous Coward]

How many telcos have lines that run through their land?

How about they get off welfare and get jobs?

[glrotate]

If not, why are they my problem?

solar pv

[zogger]

If the 18,000 familes did a bulk group buy, so they could get wholesale prices, they should be able to each get a single solar panel, a storage battery and some DC lighting for not that much. And for that matter you can build wind chargers that work, there's plans out there for that. In ye olden hippy days, we just had two vehicle batteries and a backup light from the junkyard for "alternative energy" for in the cabins/hovels lighting. Just swapped the batteries out in the vehicle before they got too run down to start it again. Of course, that means you need fuel, and a vehicle, and I imagine pickups and tractors might be useful for them, so maybe they would need to develop biofuels onsite. Agave cactus can make some good fuel, if you can resist drinking what you make. Maybe there are some more desert crops they can grow for that.

Anyway, the point is, there are ways around being able to both live remotely and also have a modicum of normal technology. As to getting internet access out there, there really isn't any option right now except to go to some wireless tech,not the way they were doing it but some other way, probably microwave relays going to...wildcard, depends on where the families are. Wifi-N to motorola canopy to I have no clue. Doing wired or fiber seems remotely unpossible given the distances though. Heck, I know what they are going through even here in a transition area that is half suburb and half rural, being at the end of the powerpoles/phone string, we won't ever get decent consistent clean grid power (goes down 1-3 times a week, especially in the summer, mostly short time though, but it is *dirty* power all the time) nor any sort of DSL (dialup is it, but it works OK enough), even though this is a two lane blacktop and quite literally only 15 minutes to a walmart or office depot or all the other stores in town. You have to look at the developing world to see how they are doing it, and that is much more governmental involvement in pushing wireless tech and getting it out there, leapfrogging as you said last generation wired tech for both power and data transfer. In the US it seems to be hampered and locked down to a few huge for profit companies. No easy answer there other than I have the opinion that the public spectrum is a big fat lie and mostly not public and they won't let the regular public really do some interesting things, but they will let a few billion dollar companies-we'll call them the normal telco cartel- do interesting things.

little endian or big endian

[Anonymous Coward]

little endian or big endian

Not necessarily

[Anonymous Coward]

Singapore seems to thrive these days, and it's just one city. The US, at least in theory, is supposed to consist of 50 self governing states with a constitutionally guaranteed republican form of government. It would be a good system if we didn't have states and cities always looking to Washington for someone to pick up their garbage or drive their school buses.
Some organization of society works best at a local level.
The Dineh people ought to have encouragement to maintain their traditions while taking advantage of technology. I was first out in their area in 2004 and was impressed by how widely their homes are scattered. They seem perfect candidates to test out improved home wind power. The people I visited had switched from wind powered well pumps to solar, because the old Aero windmills were too hard to maintain.

Re:The same could be said for most nations on Eart

[edalytical]

You obviously don't know anything about the situation here in Arizona then. It's the opposite, the Navajo Nation maintains influence and exerts control over local governments, public opinion, the public university and the courts -- even the 9th circuit court in California. On of their main business/political endeavors has people believing that snowmaking is a violation of their religious freedom. The issue is causing our ski resort to not be able to modernize. Since the issue at hand in the TFA is about the modernization of the Navajo Nation why should anyone care? If they are willing to block modernization when it serves their interest then why should I lift a finger when they can't get free Internet anymore. Besides they played the we-don't-understand-technology-card already in this battle claiming that they did not review the ski resorts plans before approving the upgrades because they couldn't view them on a computer. Come to find out that anyone on the Res has free access to computers and the Internet. And it's exactly your assertion that "the powers that be maintain control" that allow this nonsense to happen. People try so hard to not be part of the big bad United States that in the past had very bad policies toward Natives. However, if the current situation was looked at objectively the general population in Northern Arizona would realize that the Navajo Nation and the other local tribes don't really have a problem with snowmaking. They simply want the competing ski resort to go out of business, so more people will visit the ski resort they do own. And, yup you guessed it, they make snow at their resort. Funny how that works out.

Cry for the indians

[Anonymous Coward]

Cry for the indians
Die for the indians
Cry for the indians
Cry, cry, cry for the indians
Love the land and fellow man
Peace is what we strive to have
Some folks have none of this
Hatred and prejudice

Systems don't scale

[Anonymous Coward]

Ideology is a terrible intellectual tool.

Spend some time learning about systems and how to scale them.

As governments, in particular, do not scale well, and as almost all of our catastrophes throughout civilization are due to lousy government, you may well conclude that the only stable government is minimal government.

Chaos, computational complexity and the emergent properties of systems all prevent seeing the future. If you can't see ANY future, how do you prescribe a path to a desired future?

Hubris, the idea that we know enough to design a future. No human mind can deal with any complex system. Evolved systems work, large designed systems don't.

Re:Systems don't scale

[Anonymous Coward]

So we should just give up? If we do that, the absolutely unavoidable result is that someone else will seize the opportunity to capitalize on your fatalism and will rule over you.

Now instead, imagine a large governance structure which is not monolithic. Which is based on variables which can be tweaked for every community. Which allows communities to define themselves and their relationships to other communities.

Does that not sound flexible enough to be better than just giving up and letting the petty dictators (or representatives, or presidents, or whatever you want to call them) have all the power?

Re:Systems don't scale

[Anonymous Coward]

These are laws of nature that limit what we can do, as inexorable as the law of gravity.

It isn't a matter of giving up, it is a matter of recognizing the constraints imposed by that external reality.

It isn't a matter of either "petty dictators" or "mega-government", there are many other alternative organizations that have been shown to work, in the sense of allowing groups of people to interact peacefully and productively, both within the political system and with people in other political systems.

Minimal government has the fewest politically-induced catastrophes. We should try that again.

Re:Systems don't scale

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't online, voluntary, direct democracy as minimal as you can get?

What would be more minimalist-- and be able to survive?

You can't swing a dead injun on Slashdot without..

[Anonymous Coward]

hitting an annoying, self-righteous liberal hypocrite.

Let me summarize your post for those of us with jobs: Whites, Christians, Europeans: Horrible, Satanic, Evil people bent on the destruction of the world. All minorities: Perfect, angelic peace loving people who would all live happily together singing kumbayah all day if not for evil, horrible whitey and violent Christians who should both be genocided off the face of the earth.

SERVES THEM RIGHT!

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean the Navajo nation mission through the canyon was the TOUGHEST level! (Crimson Skies xbox anyone, anyone, anyone?)

Maybe they'll find someone else to help them?

[Anonymous Coward]

*looks just north of the Hopi nation* ...maybe Black Mesa?

FCC Chair steps in

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2008/aug/02/fcc_intervenes_navajo_internet_issue/

indicates that the FCC Chairman has put in a call to SES Americomm to get them to forestall the Navajo cutoff.

Just go back...

[Anonymous Coward]

... to doing whatever internet they did before the pale face showed up ...

Re:HAM is The answer

[sumdumass]

The FCC. Even though they are a Nation, they aren't independent of all US laws. For instance, the FEDs can go in and arrest, trial on US laws, and convict someone then punish them for murder. It gets complicated but they aren't independent nations like France or Germany or something.

All the corporations belong to investors.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd be willing to pitch in $80 / month for a truly neutral network. What's your price? How much would you be willing to pay to have access to a FREE (as in speech) Internet connection?

So you want to invest in an effort to set up a network, so that you don't have to deal with the existing network of publicly traded companies? Will your effort be limited to "local" or specific applications? In other words, would it be parallel to the existing "internet" or just maybe a local network? If the former, are you going to limit your growth so that you do not ever reach that special threshold ("zero") where "corporate greed" makes you evil? And are you banking on others with similar objectives to set up compatible networks in other places? I like the idea: Compete. But why would I invest with someone who is ant-corporation? How would you keep everything together if all you have to offer is your vision? Why would I pay $80/mo if I am paying less now for something that is sufficient? Sell it to me: What are the risks? What are the rewards? (There's the greed part.) And what do you offer that I can't get elsewhere?

But, how would you pay for such a thing? How would you create it? How would you maintain it?

I would look for people willing to invest their money and time into the idea in exchange for a return on their investment. I would hire people who were knowledgeable in the areas necessary to create the technical products and services that the investors are investing in. I would hire people to manage the activities of those people, or to handle the non-technical aspects of the work. OR, in a more distributed approach, I might create a "robust" document that governs how a paid contractors and paying subscribers might contribute to and use the technology. Sort of a digital constitution. Basically I would borrow money from investors and start a corporation to get the basic services up-and running, then pray that there are people willing to subscribe.

I would be concerned with A) Subscribers and investors leaving to start their own ("better") ventures, and the money following them, B) No growth or progress, due to A, or due too a lack of structure and discipline. C) A "business" that does not have enough money to compete. D) People paying $80/mo complaining about what this/that person said, and demanding action, E) People snooping on other users, and all of the problems of every other network.

Notice the conflicts and difficult decisions that parallel those of the evil corporations.

Ham radio is out

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a ham but not into digital radio, but I think I am right here. Hams have the ability to use what is called packet radio to send messages through out a linked packet system, but nothing as far as accessing the internet. That is, except for an email access system.

Scalability

[bussdriver]

Government systems are similar to computer systems in many ways.

Its a problem of scalability and fault tolerance. Scale too large and the government is more susceptible to corruption and monopoly-style abuse...(wink)

A failed government only harms the people who let it fail and to some degree other nations; the more centralized the more damage caused (which combined with the scalability problem means it will also fail more often.)

As far as finding enemies-- humans are great at finding 'outsiders' to dehumanize even if the distinction is completely fictional. There are too many people and too far apart to ever counter it (even then that isn't a full solution.)

A world of godless CLONES would break into groups and find/invent things to fight about.

The real problem

[certain death]

I owned an ISP in NorthEast Arizona, right up against the Navajo nation...we attempted to do business with them, but the tribal elders were very corrupt. They wanted a kickback on EVERY tower/user we added on their land. This is why no large ISPs, such as Time Warner, etc. will not even mess with them. They are a very good people, very nice, and very humble and at the same time very resourceful. They will figure something out, as long as they are forced to.

Re:The real problem

[arth1]

And this is different from your average city hall how?

The Nation cut off by the ISP

[warpuck]

Betcha the ISP is DishNetee/WildBluie/EchoStarved. Probably violated the excessive use policy you know, too many Gb in any 30 day period. Probably the Nation will have to continue to pay anyway, because, them pesky customers want to continue using the internet,,, and even if they dont use the ISP will collect anyway.

You have encapsulated my point perfectly

[unassimilatible]

By your, umm, logic, hardly anyone on the planet merits a description as a native resident.

Precisely. Calling anyone "native" is an idiotic PC formulation. As for who got here first, who the hell cares?

Re:You have encapsulated my point perfectly

[reallocate]

No, my point was this: Why should anyone care if people like you want to tee off on issues like this as political fodder?

"Native American" is fairly and appropriately applied to the peoples and cultures who dominated the Americas before the arrival of Europeans who decided to call themselves Americans after they had taken both continents from the previous residents. Whether those residents were literally the first inhabitants is an issue of no importance.(Unless you are a literalist or someone looking for political ammo.)

People can find anything offensice if they want to

[unassimilatible]

As for myself, I think people need to buck up and stop taking offense when it was not intended. There is nothing offensive about Columbus making a navigational error and thinking he was in "West India."

What is offensive to me is false outrage, something the left specializes in.

fine. whatever.

[symbolset]

They can still lead Hollywood to some of the finest, most desolate environments on Earth. For a fee of course. Maybe the fee should include a fiber hookup. Eventually Hollywood will want enough access to grant it.