NASA's Mars News Is Not Life, But Perchlorate

leighklotz writes "In an update to the little green men story of not-life-on-Mars, NASA has twittered: 'The buzz this weekend was due to an interesting soil chemistry finding, still preliminary, but now avail here:' where 'here' is NASA Spacecraft Analyzing Martian Soil Data. The exciting bit: 'Within the last month, two samples have been analyzed by the Wet Chemistry Lab of the spacecraft's Microscopy, Electrochemistry, and Conductivity Analyzer, or MECA, suggesting one of the soil constituents may be perchlorate, a highly oxidizing substance.' Also, 'NASA will hold a media teleconference on Tuesday, Aug. 5, at 2 p.m. EDT, to discuss these recent science activities.'"

Comments

Contamination?

[morgan_greywolf]

Perhaps I'm missing something obvious here, but how seriously are they considering the possibility of contamination? Because unless I'm remembering something wrong, perchlorates are most excellent oxidizers and hence commonly used in, oh, say, solid rocket fuel, among other things.

Re:Contamination?

[smolloy]

These are intermediate results, and should be treated as such. From TFA,

The team also is working to totally exonerate any possibility of the perchlorate readings being influenced by terrestrial sources which may have migrated from the spacecraft, either into samples or into the instrumentation.

Re:Contamination?

[MagusSlurpy]

You are right, and generally, the Space Shuttle missions are launched using 2 solid-fuel rockets, composed primarily of ammonium perchlorate, so it is certainly a possibility; but one should consider that if the probe itself is contaminated, it should be detecting perchlorates in all of the samples. . .

Re:Contamination?

[richdun]

Eh, maybe. First, Mars missions aren't launched from the SS cargo bay, but often (and virtually always for interplanetary missions) the Delta 2's have solids attached for boosting as well as a solid third stage. But it's rare for launch material to get into a payload. If something did get in, it's likely to be a particle or two, not a whole spray, so it is possible only one sensor was contaminated.

But we'll hear soon enough. Either that, or that perchlorate was left by some gooey, amoeba-looking alien of the week that feeds on salt...

Re:Contamination?

[Gazzonyx]

So, how much manufacturing does this stuff need to be a viable source of rocket fuel to fire rockets back to earth?

Re:Contamination?

[silentben]

Not likely - yes, perchlorate is used in solid rocket fuel, but solid rocket fuel would not be used for a landing because you can't control the burn. It is only really good as a powerful launch vehicle because it can burn fast and hot, but you can't easily turn it on or off or control the rate of burn. For landings and precision manuveuring liquid fuels such as liquid hydrogen and oxygen are much more common.

Re:Contamination?

[jon_cooper]

Don't be silly. This is obvious evidence that extra-terrestrials have been on Mars and left behind perchlorate traces from their rockets. Either that, or Martians have just blasted off somewhere in their rockets. Wonder where they've gone?

Re:Contamination?

[ben2umbc]

From Phoenix Website:

What is the fuel type and operation mechanism of the in-flight thrusters and course correctors?

The Phoenix spacecraft uses a mono-propellant hydrazine system. The hydrazine passes through a catalyst chamber and decomposes exothermically into hydrogen, nitrogen and ammonia. The propellant is fed to the thrusters by pressure applied above the diaphragms in the tanks.

Ok, so what does this mean for the contamination theory? I'm a dunce with the chemistry stuff.

Re:Contamination?

[myth_of_sisyphus]

Oh yeah. Didn't think that all the samples would have perchlorate. Guess that's why I don't work for NASA.

Re:Contamination?

[silentben]

This means that neither the propellant or the resultant chemicals are perchlorates, so this substance can be ruled out as a contaminant due to propellants. So contamination theory is out. See also the following excerpt from the same site you sourced:

Will Phoenix's descent thrusters alter the composition of its landing site?
Altering the chemistry of our landing site due to our thruster exhaust is unavoidable. The Phoenix Lander uses hydrazine, a hypergolic propellant that turns into ammonia during combustion. So essentially, we are spraying the surface with ammonia and a small amount of hydrazine that was not combusted. The way we get around that is by 1) knowing that we are going to be producing ammonia and 2) by designing the wet chemistry cells to carefully quantify the amount of ammonia in the regolith. We then use this information to interpret our other results.

Re:Contamination?

[bgspence]

"The team also is working to totally exonerate any possibility of the perchlorate readings being influenced by terrestrial sources which may have migrated from the spacecraft, either into samples or into the instrumentation. "

Re:Contamination?

[spyder-implee]

I find it more interesting that when Lithium perchlorate can be decomposed to give off oxygen. If this compound is in abundance on the martian surface, well, why don't we have a city there already? :) It needs to get pretty hot to release Oxygen, but I thought about that. Nukes. If there is plenty of the stuff just lying on the group we should just nuke the place and hey-presto we have an atmosphere! :P

Re:Contamination?

[amliebsch]

So, you're saying that all we'd have to do is...start...the reactor?

Re:Contamination?

[johno.ie]

Hydrogen and Oxygen are also used as rocket fuels/oxidisers. Why isn't anybody suggesting that the water ice found by Phoenix is a result of terrestrial contamination?

Re:Contamination?

[Anonymous Coward]

Scientific American reported that "The fuel in the thrusters that Phoenix used to land on Mars was made of hydrazine, not perchlorate."
http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=perchlorate-found-on-mars-makes-soi-2008-08-04

Re:Contamination?

[FlyingSquidStudios]

The first place I would look would be Grover's Mill, New Jersey.

Re:Contamination?

[corbettw]

Hard to say, K'Breel has been quiet for some time. Too quiet.

Re:Contamination?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The fuel in the thrusters that Phoenix used to land on Mars was made of hydrazine, not perchlorate."

Yes; and I think it would be a bad idea to build thrusters designed for a controlled landing using solid fuel.

Re:Contamination?

[damburger]

A lot. SRBs are very sensitive to defects in the fuel grain, and if the thing burns unevenly you've got problems. Also, big ones have to be manufactured in segments. I can't really see all that infrastructure being boosted up to Mars any time soon.

Re:Contamination?

[n3tcat]

They abandoned their homeworld after corporations caused a rampant growth of garbage and left behind little robots to clean up the mess. But those robots then failed to evolve a personality, and therefore after a few hundred thousand years the robots and garbage and any other markings of civilization all withered away into big balls of red sand. The colonists themselves took a short hop to a previously restricted hunting and vacation spot located a few doors down from mars.

Re:Contamination?

[stjobe]

_Very_ nice reference. I tip my hat at you, Sir.

Re:Contamination?

[vrmlguy]

These are intermediate results, and should be treated as such. From TFA,

The team also is working to totally exonerate any possibility of the perchlorate readings being influenced by terrestrial sources which may have migrated from the spacecraft, either into samples or into the instrumentation.

Wouldn't it be amusing if some joker, before launch, had sprinkled a handful of dirt into the analysis chambers? (And by "amusing", I mean in the "How close do you think I can steer this ocean liner to that iceberg?" sort of way.)

Re:Contamination?

[vrmlguy]

Perhaps I'm missing something obvious here, but how seriously are they considering the possibility of contamination? Because unless I'm remembering something wrong, perchlorates are most excellent oxidizers and hence commonly used in, oh, say, solid rocket fuel, among other things.

I think it's important to note that the White House briefing was due to the following:

The results from Sunday's TEGA experiment, which analyzed a sample taken directly above the ice layer, found no evidence of this compound.

"This is surprising since an earlier TEGA measurement of surface materials was consistent with but not conclusive of the presence of perchlorate," said Peter Smith, Phoenix's principal investigator at the University of Arizona, Tucson.

In other words, the important part is that they didn't find perchlorate once they used the trenching tool. So, either the landing rockets contaminated the top layer of soil, or some sort of wierd chemistry is forming perchlorate when sunlight hits the soil. Either way, the subsurface chemistry seems to be conducive to life. I get the feeling that you just need to add water and tomato seeds to get a vegetable garden growing. (Either that, or my earlier comment turns out to be true.)

Is the presence of perchlorate needed to manufacture fuel in situ? If so, this would make some of the proposed manned missions a bit harder. On the other hand, it may mean that along with making fuel, robots could farm food and other plants for future astronauts to consume while staying on Mars.

Re:Contamination?

[sas-dot]

The noting in wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchlorate says Perchlorate is found (used to inflate) in Airbags. Don't they use some kind of airbag to land the phoenix safely? hope they have discounted this...

Re:Contamination?

[Ihlosi]

Don't they use some kind of airbag to land the phoenix safely?

Nope, they absolutely did not use any airbags to land Phoenix. It used a combination of parachutes and hydrazine-fueled thrusters to land.

Re:Contamination?

[Reverend528]

Or we could just use a giant magnifying lens to focus the sun's rays onto a single location. It's slightly more environmentally friendly than nuking a whole planet.

Re:Contamination?

[jollyreaper]

Perhaps I'm missing something obvious here, but how seriously are they considering the possibility of contamination? Because unless I'm remembering something wrong, perchlorates are most excellent oxidizers and hence commonly used in, oh, say, solid rocket fuel, among other things.

More specifically, this probe didn't land like the rovers, a "bouncedown" on kevlar airbags. This probe set down like the Vikings, descend from parachute and then cut it away and use thrusters for the last bit of descent. The area around the lander should have exhaust particles strewn all around.

Re:Contamination?

[William-Ely]

Nuke it from orbit of course. Just to be sure.

Re:Contamination?

[erlando]

In fact it's the ONLY way to be sure..

Re:Contamination?

[Spokehedz]

You'll have to talk to Quato about getting that done.

Re:Contamination?

[Eravnrekaree]

Perchlorates are highly toxic and can damage the body and are responsible for high rates of illness near facilities which used them. They can cause cancer I believe. They are component of rocket fuel. If this finding is true than it means mars would be particularly inhospitable to life. A big question would be, where did this perchlorate on mars come from, as well.

Re:Contamination?

[GogglesPisano]

I used to live right around the corner from Grover's Mill - there is actually a small monument at the supposed landing site.

Re:Contamination?

[thedrx]

Hear that? It's the sound of a thousand nerds googling "Grover's Mill, New Jersey" up :)

Re:Contamination?

[roguetrick]

Quit giving the martians ideas.

Re:Contamination?

[carps]

Wouldn't it be amusing if some joker, before launch, had sprinkled a handful of dirt into the analysis chambers? (And by "amusing", I mean in the "How close do you think I can steer this ocean liner to that iceberg?" sort of way.)

Or maybe the "How much more funding do you think us Martian soil scientists would get if there were something up there besides moon dust" sort of way.

I wonder if it was Freudian the way they used the word "exonerate", i.e. liberate from an accusation, instead of "eliminate"? Feeling guilty boys?

(For the record, I don't actually think anyone did anything.)

Re:Contamination?

[Cheeko]

But it could be a good source for manufacturing Oxygen. Something we sorta need to survive on long space trips ;)

One would also assume you could potentially use the Oxygen stripped off for other things besides breathing.

Re:Contamination?

[Anonymous Coward]

Run!...Go!...Start the reacta!

Re:Contamination?

[damburger]

The surface of Mars has plenty of oxides beside this.

Re:Contamination?

[dwhitman]

Converting most oxides to O2 costs energy, usually a lot.

Converting perchlorate to O2 is energetically downhill. You get O2 plus some heat for your igloo.

Re:Contamination?

[damburger]

I didn't think of that, very interesting... you could perhaps take a small amount of catalyst with you and be set up for long term life support.

Re:Contamination?

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

Hey, we've done it before, at least our freaky looking ancestors did.

(See: Mission to Mars)

Re:Contamination?

[herbivore]

The martians went to Earth when their planet died. Then a civil war broke out between the faction that wanted to continue technological advancement and the faction that wanted to start it all over. Or perhaps, when they got here, it was like Firefly: There was not enough infrastructure and their civilization slid into ruin.

Re:Contamination?

[wkk2]

I would imagine that a number of squibs are used by the lander to deploy hardware, close valves, etc. Are the squibs based on perchlorates?

Re:Contamination?

[CptNerd]

Funny how Hollywood almost got it right: Robinsons Crusoe On Mars

Re:Contamination?

[vuo]

Moreover, a hot jet of ammonia/hydrazine is a reducing atmosphere that specifically would destroy perchlorates.

Re:Contamination?

[Melee_Fracas]

Also, big [solid rockets] have to be manufactured in segments.

For clarification, I believe the shuttle SRBs are manufactured in segments so that they can be transported over the road from Thiokol's manufacturing plant to Florida. I don't think that there is a technical limitation to the size of a monolithic fuel-grain for practical size rockets. In fact, fuel grain cast in one piece would have fewer places for cracks to develop. For those not in the know, many if not most solid rocket failures are due to cracks in the fuel grain, which expose more surface area to be burned. This drives up the combustion pressure, which increases the rate of combustion, which perpetuates a self-sustaining cycle that ends in the destruction of the engine.

Presumably, you could site the hypothetical manufacturing facility on Mars reasonably close to the hypothetical launch site.

Re:Contamination?

[ZackZero]

This may have already been stated below, but after reviewing Wikipedia's entry on perchlorate, it is worth noting that the compound is negatively ionic. More analyses will likely need to be conducted to determine the quantity of perchlorate relative to other substances that it can react with. All that was established was the presence of perchlorate; there is still a chance that it could have a concentration similar to that which exists in various parts of our planet.

Re:Contamination?

[damburger]

Its a strictly practical limitation. A facility capable of making a shuttle sized SRB would be huuuuge, certainly of a size impractical to transport to Mars.

Re:Contamination?

[avandesande]

Perchlorate is a good source of oxygen, all you need to do is heat it up.

Re:Contamination?

[colmore]

I think finding moon dust on Mars would be a pretty major discovery.

So... little green men...

[PC and Sony Fanboy]

So, they are REALLY little green men? So small they look like chemicals?

Re:So... little green men...

[againjj]

Nah, just little green chemicals!

(For those that don't get it, chlorine is green.)

Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[greenguy]

Yeah, me neither.

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[chord.wav]

Wikipedia is your friend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchlorate

Perchlorates are the salts derived from perchloric acid (HClO4). They occur both naturally and through manufacturing. They have been used as a medicine for more than 50 years to treat thyroid gland disorders. They are also used as an oxidizer in rocket fuel and explosives and can be found in airbags, fireworks, and Chilean fertilizers.

Now, do you know what that means?? We could have tons of Chilean fertilizers YEAH!!!!

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[Detritus]

Chilean fertilizer is a euphemism for bird shit.

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[owlnation]

It's grammar Jim, but not as we know it.

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[sheehaje]

Chilean fertilizer is a euphemism for bird shit.

Holy Cow, there are birds on Mars...

Slashdot.... deductive reasoning at it's best.

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[Divebus]

It means we can all our dry cleaning real cheap on Mars!

Oh, wait... I don't dry clean my t-shirts.

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[Reverend528]

It means that a planet made of rust has an oxidizing agent in the soil. I could've told you that without going to mars.

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[eclectro]

What it means - perchlorate can be used to make bombs. Therefore Mars has terrorists. There is life on Mars, albeit the bad kind.

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[Anonymous Coward]

HAH!

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[arthurpaliden]

Yes, Mars has WMDs....

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[Opportunist]

If NASA hypes this up a bit, we'll be SO there next year!

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[AKAImBatman]

Chilean fertilizer is a euphemism for bird shit.

*scratches head*

*ponders composition of said bird droppings for a moment*

So wait. You mean that when Kirk built a cannon out of the stuff he found lying around on a deserted planet, that was realistic?!? Next you're going to be telling me that 7 foot anthromorphic lizards are an everyday occurrence!

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[Whiteox]

Don't miss the point!
Perchlorates mean OXYGEN! They can breath the stuff AND make rocket fuel! The chemistry is relatively simple too! - 4 oxygen atoms for every potassium (I read somewhere NASA found concentrations of potassium).

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[alexj33]

Wow, you are so original!

STEPS TO GET POINTS ON SLASHDOT:

Step 1: Look for an article about Mars.
Step 2: Talk about WMDs/George Bush. Act like nobody has ever thought of the idea! (Amazing how this keeps working over and over!)
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Get points!

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[shellbeach]

Yeah, me neither.

I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with the earlier Viking Labelled Release (LR) experiments, as mentioned in this post.

According to that link, the LR experiment gave a positive result for life. But since a complementary experiment gave a negative result, an alternative explanation posited for the LR data was that there was an oxidising agent in the soil that created a false positive. Since perchlorate is an oxidant, perhaps these latest data represent a conclusive explanation of the Viking LR results as a false positive?

In other words, the data would point to the non-existence of life on Mars. (But that's just a wild guess, I should add.)

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[Surt]

7 foot isn't all that uncommon, but the anthropomorphic part took some artistic license (they had a small fx budget ... human actors were easier to use back then).

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just kill yourself. Some bleach & ammonia, give it a whirl.

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[slashmojo]

Coincidentally I just watched an episode of Rough Science where they built a rocket (of the firework variety) using bat droppings.

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[mcvos]

What it means - perchlorate can be used to make bombs. Therefore Mars has terrorists. There is life on Mars, albeit the bad kind.

Ah, so that's how NASA is going to get Bush to fund a mission to Mars: to kill the Martian terrorists!

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[ThomConspicuous]

Bat droppings played a large part in American history during the Civil War and World War I. I know for sure that there were many Saltpeter mines setup in Kentucky Mammoth Caves.

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[Anonymous Coward]

"US puts 400,000 'astronauts' on Mars. President Bush stated they'll be back home when the job is done but at the same time gave assurances that regular Americans would not be drafted into the astronaut core. In other news, rebels continue to offer resistance to the US occupation of Mars. In prominent areas graffiti stating 'Kuato Lives' can be seen. Richter (Mr. Cohagen's lead security officer) stated that the situation was under control and in fact, he looked forward to a party later that evening."

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[shaitand]

Either that or this means they have found a substance that readily decomposes to oxygen and also makes up a great part of the bulk in rocket fuel.

When combined with the previous discovery of water, this means there is air, water, and a ready source of power (the sun). Additionally the soil is very earthlike. This makes a martian colony extremely feasible and potentially useful.

The localized percolate also means not nearly as much fuel would need to be send for a return trip and there is a pretty fair chance that the other materials required to make the fuel will be present as well. For a colony this would mean things could be launched from the Martian surface.

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[elrous0]

I talked my girlfriend into giving me a Chilean Fertilizer once.

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[drerwk]

I remember keeping a pad of paper by the TV so I could write down the ingredients next time that episode came on. And what a happy boy when I saw that Safeway sold potassium nitrate on the same shelf as the sublimed sulfur in the pharmacy section of the store.

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[Anonymous Coward]

guns a blazin

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[alexborges]

If only bush would stop being an idiot, this problem you so masterfully point out would be solved.

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it was so obvious, then why didn't you say it?

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[dword]

Wikipedia is your friend
Please! Stop saying things like that. It may be handy, but it's NOT your friend!

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[HTH NE1]

"Broadcast special communique to Cybertron: Stay the hell off of Mars." -- Optimus Prime

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[alexj33]

Personally, I think that presidents who oppose everything liberal are heroes, but that's just me.

I'll remember your post (and link back to it) the next time someone calls a democrat an idiot on Slashdot, and gets labelled a troll. They'll see how you got off unscathed.

God forbid a democrat be called an idiot on this site. If Bush is called an idiot though, well, that's OK!

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[lpq]

In other words, the data would point to the non-existence of life on Mars.

Why?
Since the atmosphere is so thin, oxygen in the atmosphere couldn't support life -- but there were soil-based organisms that could use the perchlorate as an oxidizing agent in driving life machinery? I.e. we use oxygen from the air, but why couldn't a bacteria or something evolve that needed perchlorates -- an adaptation martian life made as oxygen in the atmosphere became too thin to support life...or...otherway around....

One mistake I'd see about claiming no life based on this -- didn't they land at the equivalent of the arctic circle? If someone landed in certain areas on earth, they could certainly come back as poisoned and unable to support life. Isn't the northern hemisphere, where they landed the part that seems to have had a mile of soil stripped off of it as well?

Besides...aren't we all going to be told this was all done in a film studio in 20 years?

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[shellbeach]

Well, the complimentary Viking experiment to the LR failed to find evidence of organic compounds in the soil. That's pretty strong evidence against the presence of life, you'd think ...

Anyway, I'm just putting two and two together and possibly coming up with five. I just happened to remember that post I linked to from the previous story, and everything clicked.

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[ohmpossum]

I always thought "The Eagle has Langed" on the Earth's Moon. Actually, the bird shit is penguin poop from the linux based OS on the rover.

Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS?

[DanAnderson26]

I think I used to have a coffee maker that did this...

Ramifications?

[ROMRIX]

Perchlorate, ok. What are the ramifications of finding naturally occurring perchlorate?

Re:Ramifications?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perchlorate can be used for explosives ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchlorate ) and suggests the presence of unlawful combatants on Martian soil.

Re:Ramifications?

[Anonymous Coward]

no idea...

but apparently recent study may have found a link to perchlorate being created when lightning strikes a body of water.

so - this chemical out there on a planet in space that's exposed to all sorts of astro-phenomenom... yeah i'm not see what's so special about this?

Re:Ramifications?

[shaitand]

It is a primary ingredient used in rocket fuel, as in the stuff that would be needed to send things back to earth if we ever went there.

Beyond that, no clue what they are getting at.

Re:Ramifications?

[alxkit]

that or tyler durden been there already

Re:Ramifications?

[Whiteox]

It means that the free oxygen in the atmosphere had combined with available hydrogen and metals.
Simple put, Potassium/Sodium/Calcium had reacted with water or some hydrogen based acid - perhaps as gas forming a hydride and any free oxygen reacted with that compound to make a perchlorate!
Stunning stuff if you think about it.
If true, it's a real bonus for survival.

Re:Ramifications?

[Bender_]

The presence of a highly oxidizing substance would imply that organic matter is attacked and degraded quickly. If a high level of perchlorates is present on the surface of mars this could mean that it is a barren place devoid of organic life as we know it.

(This is chlorex after all, remember you use it to kill germs?)

Re:Ramifications?

[Bender_]

Looks like i mixed things up. Perchlorate isn't that aggressive after all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchlorate

Re:Ramifications?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lithium Perchlorate can be used to produce oxygen, this would obviously be of great advantage on Mars!

Re:Ramifications?

[mcvos]

The presence of a highly oxidizing substance would imply that organic matter is attacked and degraded quickly. If a high level of perchlorates is present on the surface of mars this could mean that it is a barren place devoid of organic life as we know it.

(This is chlorex after all, remember you use it to kill germs?)

Oxygen was also highly toxic to the first life on earth. Life found a way to cope with it.

So if there's life on Mars, it's breathing perchlorate.

Re:Ramifications?

[Ihlosi]

So if there's life on Mars, it's breathing perchlorate.

It could get its oxygen from the perchlorate, and use methane from the Martian atmosphere for food. Kind of strange how that would be the inverse of the situation on Earth, where life gets its oxygen from the atmosphere and takes up food in solid form ...

Re:Ramifications?

[DerekLyons]

It greatly reduces the chances of finding life.

Re:Ramifications?

[Bemopolis]

that would be the inverse of the situation on Earth, where life gets its oxygen from the atmosphere and takes up food in solid form ...

I am the Lorax I speak for the trees...and algae, and bacteria, and...

...you oxymetabolistic-centric bastard.

Re:Ramifications?

[Ihlosi]

I am the Lorax I speak for the trees...and algae, and bacteria, and...

Ok, tree-dude, let's take your oxygen away and see how you fare at night.

You might have a point with anything that lives in water, though, and anything that likes anaerobic conditions.

GW Bush

[Anonymous Coward]

So who had the job of explaining this to Pres. Bush, and how long did it take before he understood?

Re:GW Bush

[aliquis]

Bush isn't stupid, he's just intellectually impaired.

Re:GW Bush

[Anonymous Coward]

Bush ain't dumbified, he's just inteligentally impairificated.

Fixed it for you.

Re:GW Bush

[Anonymous Coward]

So who had the job of explaining this to Pres. Bush, and how long did it take before he understood?

I'm wondering that, but specifically in view of "We could have tons of Chilean fertilizers YEAH!!!!" posted above and this gem of American legislation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guano_Islands_Act

Re:GW Bush

[Anonymous Coward]

What makes you think he understood?

Re:GW Bush

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody knows. They're still not finished.

Re:GW Bush

[Atari400]

So who had the job of explaining this to Pres. Bush, and how long did it take before he understood?

Apparently they needed rocket scientists, but with the delay in communication it's still ongoing.

Re:GW Bush

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a reason why the press event is August 5... they're hoping he understands by then.

Re:GW Bush

[aliquis]

Wow, you must be really stupid.

Also, isn't say, I don't know, GW Bush one of those people who may be too stupid to understand it?

Re:GW Bush

[Anonymous Coward]

Please don't make fun of the noble efforts of the Presidential Puppeteer Briefing Team.
Thank you.

Re:GW Bush

[elrous0]

"Okay, Mr. President, think of Mars as a giant frat house...Now think of the Martian soil as a giant keg of spoiled beer...Now think of our probe as the pledge who discovered that the beer had turned..."

Re:GW Bush

[Anonymous Coward]

Call me conspiracy theorist but no one seams to consider that the perchlorate thing is the cover up for Goaul'd being found on Mars.

We better escavate Gize and recover our gate before it's too late.

Re:GW Bush

[ROMRIX]

So who had the job of explaining this to Pres. Bush, and how long did it take before he understood?

Well, it went something like this;

Messenger: Mr. President, NASA has found perchlorate on Mars.

GW: Great! I love Kool Ade!

Messenger: Wha? No Mr. President, I said PER-CHLOR-ATE.

GW: Well, lets see now, Mars is RED, so it must be CHERRY FLAVOR!

Messenger: Mr. President, I think you are misunderstanding what I am telling you, it's PER-CHLOR-ATE, you can't EAT it!

GW: Ya, I know that, you think I'm an IDIOT? ever time I eat it it turns my lips and tongue all red!

Messenger: Jeez... NO Mr. President! PER-CHLOR... AW fuckit. I'm outta here...

So what exactly are they saying?

[loraksus]

Because it sure sounds like "whole heck 'o alot of rocket fuel just lying on top of frozen water on a planet with 38% of the gravity of Earth"

Sounds like it would make space travel / trips to / from Mars dramatically easier.

Re:So what exactly are they saying?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure if it is easier but certainly cheaper. Imagine there are plenty of fuel on Mars that can be used for the return trip. That's true Buy 1 get 1 free. Passengers can also bring some Chilean fertilizers as sovenirs too. Oh, can this perchlorate thing save our energy crisis too?

Re:So what exactly are they saying?

[VagaStorm]

Errr..... If thers rocet fuel just lying around, how come the entire ting dont look like a huge fireball by now? ';..;'

Re:So what exactly are they saying?

[Loke the Dog]

Because rocket fuel is made of two parts, and the other part is obviously very rare in this case.

Ordinary oxygen is also rocket fuel, yet the earth doesnt look like a fireball.

Re:So what exactly are they saying?

[loraksus]

Perhaps - perhaps not - 3 components in rocket fuel - oxidizer (perchlorate), fuel and a catalyst. All 3 have to be in close proximity and in the right state to work.
"Fuel" is typically fairly benign stuff - finely ground aluminum, etc - the oxidizer is the stuff that is a bit of a pain to transport.

Even if there was a total lack of fuel (unlikely) on Mars, mining the oxidizer and lifting it into orbit would dramatically lower the amount of power required in the creation of a big rocket - Mars gravity is just over 1/3rd that of Earth's.
It's not something we can use right away, but it makes setting up shop there and doing something productive a hell of a lot easier.

Why this is important to non-chemists

[bsDaemon]

OK, so at first I read "highly oxodizing" and was thought, "neat; now they know why Mars is rust colored." However, even after RTFA, I was still clueless as to why I should care. Luckily, Wikipedia comes to the rescue.

From the wiki:

Both potassium perchlorate (KClO4) and ammonium perchlorate (NH4ClO4) are used extensively within the pyrotechnics industry, whereas ammonium perchlorate is a component of solid rocket fuel. Lithium perchlorate, which decomposes exothermically to give oxygen, is used in oxygen "candles" on spacecraft, submarines and in other esoteric situations where a reliable backup or supplementary oxygen supply is needed. Most perchlorate salts are soluble in water.

So, it seems to me that the important discovery is that there could be a relatively massive supply of a chemical compound which is able to produce breathable oxygen, if and when we can ever get people to Mars. If this is indeed the case, then YES, this is exciting news, a whole lot more important than why Mars is red, and is on the level of the sort of thing that the President might want to know about.

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[Knara]

Nutty. Certainly exciting, however.

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[Azarael]

Assuming that it didn't arrive with the probe, the wikipedia article also suggests that perchlorate causes thyroid problems. So if we make it there, we'll have access to air, but will have to deal with another potential harmful problem for staying.

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[bsDaemon]

So, you're saying that after we send all of the people with The Right Stuff to Mars, that they'll end up just as fat as the average America, but will at least have an excuse?

I know... but I've got karma to burn.

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[rpj1288]

Ammonium perchlorate is also a rather common oxidizer for solid rocket fuel. I'd imagine this is rather important as well, since it tends to be one of the larger mass fractions in the fuel mixture. Meaning, if you can get your perchlorate on Mars, that's that much less fuel materials you need to carry, assuming you want to use solid rockets, that is.

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[rpj1288]

So, I can't be bothered to RTFWP (wiki page). It says it's a component of fuel right there in your quote. My bad.

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[loconet]

"..the sort of thing that the President might want to know about."

or not. The same phoenix twitter page says that the reports claiming there was a White House briefing are untrue.

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

So, it seems to me that the important discovery is that there could be a relatively massive supply of a chemical compound which is able to produce breathable oxygen, if and when we can ever get people to Mars. If this is indeed the case, then YES, this is exciting news, a whole lot more important than why Mars is red, and is on the level of the sort of thing that the President might want to know about.

However, this particular president is not interested in that. As an oxidizer is an essential component of a bomb, NASA briefed him so that he could declare Mars a "red level" terrorist threat due to the significant amounts of WMDs that could be manufactured there. Plans to liberate Mars are already in the works.

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[Rayban]

Get your ass to Mars!

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[Anonymous Coward]

So, it seems to me that the important discovery is that there could be a relatively massive supply of a chemical compound which is able to produce breathable oxygen

sounds like an interesting idea. However, the flip side of this is that if this is indeed terrestrial perchlorates, it is a toxic environment to many life forms as we understand them. Ever wonder why bleach kills bacteria?

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[Abeydoun]

Well if that's the case the "potential for life" rumor, while technically correct, was entirely misleading. They didn't mean potential for life to have existed/currently exists, but rather potential for it to eventually exist... after we terraform the crap out of the planet and move migrate there. All I gotta say is the guy who leaked the rumor... is a douche!

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[loraksus]

So, it seems to me that the important discovery is that there could be a relatively massive supply of a chemical compound which is able to produce breathable oxygen

In addition to the oxygen + rocket fuel oxidizer - all that perchlorate is in close proximity to frozen water and the gravity of Mars is 38% of Earth's. Not a bad combination if you wanted to launch some rockets elsewhere.

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[JackassJedi]

[...]there could be a relatively massive supply of a chemical compound which is able to produce breathable oxygen[...]

so... all we need is to start the reactor?

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[aliquis]

And we'd also got plenty of chloride while doing it!

Someone watch out if the germans try to set up their "oxygen manufacturing camps."

(No, you don't need to correct me on gases.)

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[aliquis]

Don't worry, we send the americans first.

American + raised metabolism = happy american.

Or well, I see now that bsDaemon was after the same thing, but seen from the other affect of thyroid problems.

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[Anonymous Coward]

AWESOME!

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[myth_of_sisyphus]

When I heard they were briefing the President's Science Advisor (wonder what Christian University he went to?), the news made me depressed.

To think that an important discovery would have to be vetted through a guy who thinks he's working by and for a mythical spiritual being in the sky. I wondered what kind of God-related spin he would put on his inevitable announcement. How many times would the Creator be invoked? How many times 'pray' and 'humbleness' be said? How many scientific terms awkwardly pronounced?

Can't a scientific discovery just be that: a SCIENTIFIC discovery?

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[giminy]

So, it seems to me that the important discovery is that there could be a relatively massive supply of a chemical compound which is able to produce breathable oxygen, if and when we can ever get people to Mars.

Sweet! I am suddenly reminded of Total Recall....

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[Clock Nova]

First water, now rocks that you can burn to get oxygen. All we need now is a monkey and some sausage vines. "Robinson Crusoe on Mars" is beginning to look more and more plausible.

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[Opportunist]

(Scientist holds up a diagram showing a molecule of it)

"Mr. President, this is perchlorate"

(GW does what he does best. Look dumb)

"O...kaaaaay..?"

"We can use it to make Oxygene on Mars."

"O...kaaaay..?"

"And it's also a powerful oxidizer."

"O...kaaaaay..?"

"That means it is an important component of rocket fuel, too!"

"The Mars has WMDs? I gotta hold a speech, we have to ralley our people to invade Mars and make sure they don't attack us! Our country is in peril from outer space! Like in the documentaries I saw yesterday on the SciFi channel!"

"Erh... Mr. President, I don't think..."

"We have to up your budget, at least double it. I won't rest until we can make sure Earth is safe from the Martian Threat. We have to declare a War on Mars!"

"Erh... Mr. Pres... double budget? Erh... Yes, Mr. President, I think you understood well what's at stake here."

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[FlyingSquidStudios]

Troll ratings for satirizing our Commander-in-Chief? I'm sure the President is grateful of the service you provide for your country. Fight on, patriots!

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[ScentCone]

Actually, the troll rating is a perfectly reasonable spanking for whoever thinks that - with the 10,000th telling - that that joke or any variation on it is even remotely amusing. You know, sort of like typing a fake dialog where Al Gore claims to have invented perchlorate, or says that it exists on Mars because of man-made global warming, blah blah. You know, funny like imagining that Barack Obama would refer to this as "soil change that we can believe in." It was a troll, or close enough. But it sure wasn't satire, in any meaningful way. Just childish ranting.

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[mcvos]

Both potassium perchlorate (KClO4) and ammonium perchlorate (NH4ClO4) are used extensively within the pyrotechnics industry, whereas ammonium perchlorate is a component of solid rocket fuel. Lithium perchlorate, which decomposes exothermically to give oxygen, is used in oxygen "candles" on spacecraft, submarines and in other esoteric situations where a reliable backup or supplementary oxygen supply is needed. Most perchlorate salts are soluble in water.

So, it seems to me that the important discovery is that there could be a relatively massive supply of a chemical compound which is able to produce breathable oxygen, if and when we can ever get people to Mars.

So now we only have to send Schwarzenegger to Mars to start the process that releases the oxygen?

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[kaos07]

No, the Wikipedia article says it's used to help aid thyroid problems.

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[khallow]

Can't a scientific discovery just be that: a SCIENTIFIC discovery?

No, and this is a good thing. Otherwise, science would be pretty dull.

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[Anonymous Coward]

You're correct, but the article says that it does so by reducing thyroid function with what I imagine are closely controlled dosages. I guess what I'm basically suggesting is, if there is so much perchlorate there exposure to the soil might be a problem.

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[AngryNick]

relatively massive supply of a chemical compound which is able to produce breathable oxygen,

and some awesome fireworks...which is probably of more interest to our current president.

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[shaitand]

That appropriate rating for a 2000th telling is redundant, not troll.

Re:Why this is important to non-chemists

[steelfood]

Sounds like all we need to do now is send the governator there and put his hand on top of the machine.

Rocket fuel? To Infinity and Beyond ...!

[yorkshiredale]

Perchlorate, as in 'The stuff that powers the Shuttle's solid rocket boosters' ?

(okay so more strictly that would need to be ammonium perchlorate, but I'm sure the astronauts could, ahem, provide a little ammonia themselves).

Best get the mining ships up there quickly (assuming the Martians haven't already scalped the place).

Is this considered fuel for a return trip?

[Anonymous Coward]

So as I understand it, perchlorate can be used to make rocket fuel.

Re:Is this considered fuel for a return trip?

[loraksus]

So as I understand it, perchlorate can be used to make rocket fuel.

Sort of -
Perchlorates are oxidizers, which technically are not the "fuel" in the reaction. Oxidzers are, however, the stuff that is somewhat dangerous to handle / transport - the fuel is normally a rather ordinary substance (i.e. in black powder the fuel is charcoal, in modern rockets, powdered aluminum)

A catalyst is required, but the less you have to ship to mars, the easier it is...

Re:Is this considered fuel for a return trip?

[Anonymous Coward]

A catalyst is required...

So...Martian dust then?

Re:Is this considered fuel for a return trip?

[Caption Wierd]

Or to stay there. So far: soil that can grow asparagus, water, and now a source of oxygen. The hard part has always been getting back. Suppose we send someone who wishes to stay? (with maybe a little monkey friend.)

NASA using twitter?

[LostCluster]

I think the buried lead here is that the government is now microblogging. Wonder who they're following?

Re:NASA using twitter?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.kuro5hin.org/comments/2008/7/30/23189/2591/9#9

Good to see that slashdot is equal opportunity

[sleeponthemic]

So that even if you're trippin' balls on acid and those words that so easily arrange themselves sober are a bit jumbled , you still write a summary and hit the front page.

Everything is political

[Anonymous Coward]

McCain wants to see a manned mission to mars:
http://www.google.nl/search?num=100&hl=en&q=mars+site%3Ajohnmccain.com&btnG=Search&meta= as senator he has tried to get more funding for advanced engines that would make it more of a reality.

Obama I dont know, google returned a bunch of stuff relating to veronica mars, a fictional tv character, and mars PA, the city. Nothing obvious was on just "www.barackobama.com" so he may not have an official position on this issue.

Re:Everything is political

[Adrian Lopez]

Obama and Mccain on Space Exploration.

Honest mistake

[Anonymous Coward]

After a Martian belched on the lander's instruments during Mar's version of the 4th of July weekend it's understandable that they would get a false positive for life. After the Martian sobered up he cleaned the lens and promised never to do it again so there's still hope of detecting the faint signs of life coming from the Martian soil. In a related story the yellow ice crystals were the result of the same over indulgent Martian who has also promised to stop pissing on the lander's leg. Hopefully now that the Martian work week has begun NASA can go back to looking for trace signs of water.

What's the name of that movie?

[suck_burners_rice]

It'll be like in that Disney movie where Christopher Lloyd was a Martian. The name escapes me right now. They'll find all kinds of fascinating stuff in soil and rocks and it'll be fascinating like crazy. Then, when the power supply dies and the rover freezes forever, it will be about ten feet away from where a city the size of New York would have come into view. That's a hundred quadrillion dollars well spent!

Re:What's the name of that movie?

[Anonymous Coward]

My Favorite Martian?

Re:What's the name of that movie?

[Anonymous Coward]

It'll be like in that Disney movie where Christopher Lloyd was a Martian.

Back to the Future?

Re:What's the name of that movie?

[Belial6]

I believe you are thinking of My Favorite Martian.

Re:What's the name of that movie?

[suck_burners_rice]

No, in Back to the Future, Christopher Lloyd was "a real nutcase" according to actor James Tolkan's character, but not a Martian.

Nothing new then...

[actionbastard]

It just confirms the Viking results that Mars is just one big solid rocket booster for the Martians to use to get out of the neighborhood before the Sun dies out.

Perchlorate

[clang_jangle]

I used to perchlorate my coffee every morning, but then I read that the drip method actually gives you more caffeine. So the mars people are stuck with 1960s technology then?

Re:Perchlorate

[bcmm]

You hook yourself up to a coffee drip in the morning?

That is hardcore, dude.

Re:Perchlorate

[VanessaE]

I don't know which is worse - how bad of a pun that was, or the fact that I had to sit there and re-read it a few times before it no longer said "I used to pour Chlorate in my coffee...", as though it were some fictional brand of creamer.

Serves me right for reading Slashdot at 2:39 am.

Oxygen Generation

[Rand310]

Perchlorate does three things:

-Treats thyroid gland disorders

-Used as rocket fuel

-Used in generating oxygen (O2) chemically

Seems like good happenstance to land on a planet with frozen water on tracts of rocket fuel and solid oxygen-generating salts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_oxygen_generator

Re:Oxygen Generation

[Just Some Guy]

It's both a floor wax and a dessert topping!

Re:Oxygen Generation

[hivebrain]

Very interesting. My Martian anatomy is a little rusty, but I didn't think they even have thyroid glands.

This is just great.....JUST great

[flyingrobots]

...the EPA will now make Mars a Superfund site...Mars missions are going to have to wait until it's cleaned up.

Kevin

Re:This is just great.....JUST great

[jeffb (2.718)]

Are you kidding? Perchlorate can be used to make TERRORIST EXPLOSIVES! It's recently been banned in Germany and Canada, and it's likely that the US will follow.

It's bad enough that Mars is cold, dry, and very far away. Now it's also hazardous.

Re:This is just great.....JUST great

[Whiteox]

It was also used to kill weeds and grass (paspalum).
They pulled it off the market a few years ago though.....

GNU, too, in the loo

[tepples]

I think the buried lead here is that the government is now microblogging. Wonder who they're following?

Yeah, and how many sockpuppets?

great

[circletimessquare]

so we're polluting our home planet and we need to colonize a new one, and the first candidate turns out to be a contaminated rocket fuel brownfield

the conference on august 5th will nothing more than an announcemnet that NASA is being put under administrative jurisdiction of the EPA

Listen To James Lovelock

[esldude]

He explained it to NASA over 40 years ago. There is no life on Mars because life would effect the atmosphere in ways discernible to us. There isn't any need to send missions to figure that out. It of course wasn't the answer NASA wanted from him. There could of course be evidence of life in the past, but it looks unlikely to have ever been the case. Still the missions to Mars on a hopeless search for life are cool.

Re:Listen To James Lovelock

[Ihlosi]

There is no life on Mars because life would effect the atmosphere in ways discernible to us.

So where'd all the methane come from ?

Re:Listen To James Lovelock

[VanessaE]

Same place it came from on just about every major body in the solar system.
.

/me watches her karma go straight into the toilet for making too many Wikipedia references.

So will the BATFE be harassing the martians now?

[Ellis D. Tripp]

Like they have been doing to rocket hobbyists who use perchlorates down here on earth?

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/06/25/159239

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/20/1318259&tid=159

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/03/11/1817203&tid=167

Mars + highly oxidizing substance + Governator

[buddahrock]

Maybe the President just needed a few days to rent and watch Total Recall, then convince Governor Schwarzenegger to go to Mars and start the ancient Martian machine that creates a breathable atmosphere.

Re:Mars + highly oxidizing substance + Governator

[Timoleon]

Get your ass to Mars?

Re:Mars + highly oxidizing substance + Governator

[amliebsch]

The presidential briefing was not about the perchlorate they found. That's just a red herring. It was about the turbinium veins they discovered.

Re:Mars + highly oxidizing substance + Governator

[kipman725]

I was confused about the total recall reference but then again I have only read the short story the film was "based" on. Why do PKD's stories always get butchered when transfered to film?

Re:Mars + highly oxidizing substance + Governator

[Guido von Guido]

You've read PKD and you're wondering why his stories get butchered when they're made into movies? I'm surprised that Hollywood does as well as it has.

Re:Mars + highly oxidizing substance + Governator

[osu-neko]

Haha very true. You simply can't make a movie out of a PKD story. Instead, you make a movie inspired by a PKD story.

Re:Mars + highly oxidizing substance + Governator

[Anonymous Coward]

this is the best thread ever

Who is terraforming Mars?

[alex4point0]

Reminds me of Sagan's idea for terraforming Venus. Bomb the bejeezus out of it with something that will start breaking down the atmosphere, rinse, repeat, wait, ...?, profit! The Mars 96 never crashed ... it delivered its Penetrator (fnarr!) and inseminated the planet ... as planned. Unf unf unf FTW! FTM!

eat poo

[Anonymous Coward]

and dogs are nutritional facts with the ligl beenh smartiansur9 poo facewaq sucyuh9(Hih hp hfuiep snack poo [oo [po pooo 9oooi0-r-- -888--8-8- OHHHO ass!! ! !!!

That COULD be good news...

[Jane Q. Public]

perchlorates could be used to generate free oxygen, but that might not be a good idea unless the chlorine is also bound up into something useful. Maybe there is a good way to do that, too.

If it turned out to be, say, Sodium Chlorate, then a little heat can release oxygen leaving behind... table salt! Too cool. Is that too much to hope for?

Great - a planet made of perchlorate

[Ralph Spoilsport]

So, they start cutting a bunch of it into O2, and the next thing you know - KABOOM!!! The planet explodes. Awesome. Can't wait to see THAT go down. I'll swipe a bottle of scotch and watch the fireworks...

RS

Re:Great - a planet made of perchlorate

[elnico]

Well, with either perchlorates or oxygen, you have an oxidizing agent. The part you're still missing though is the thing to be oxidized.

It's not like the only thing keeping fires in check here on earth is lack of oxygen. There's definitely enough oxygen in the atmosphere to burn things like forests. The real source of energy for a reaction like a forest fire is the chemicals that were at some point created by organisms through the absorption of sunlight.

On presumably lifeless Mars, there is no process by which enough energy coming in from the sun is stored. Therefore you simply cannot have a catastrophic release of energy.

Re:Great - a planet made of perchlorate

[jollyreaper]

So, they start cutting a bunch of it into O2, and the next thing you know - KABOOM!!! The planet explodes. Awesome.

May as well do that. It's obstructing my view of Venus.

Re:Great - a planet made of perchlorate

[shaitand]

actually as I understand it, the rockets use powdered aluminum and not an organic for their fuel.

I never...

[strabes]

I never want to see this phrase on Slashdot again:

NASA has twittered

God help us.

Re:I never...

[Alsee]

Maybe God could Twitter that twit in the White House.

-

Re:I never...

[FooBarWidget]

Or maybe Twitter is more useful than the average Slashdotter wants to believe. I was baffled last time when I read the Slashdot reactions on Identi.ca and microblogging. Apparently people here have never heard of microblogging as a way to keep in touch with one's friends.

Re:I never...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or more commonly to keep in touch with one's own e-penis.

Re:I never...

[Anonymous Coward]

At least their news release didn't refer to a Facebook account for more photos.

Re:I never...

[Anonymous Coward]

Tweet: Thats like a small step for us dudes, and a big jump for the rest of you suckers.

Re:I never...

[Prune]

I don't understand what it means to have "twittered".

would nasa really meet white house to discuss salt

[Latinhypercube]

Hmmm, I wonder what happened at the White house meeting ? (would NASA really have a meeting at the White house to discuss Perchlorate?) Maybe Bush told Nasa to bury the life on Mars story, as martians aren't in his bible.

Re:percolate

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha. I see what you did there! /Perc(hlor|ol)ate/

Chemistry joke

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you call a Perchlorate with ADHD?

A hyperchlorate.

*groan*

Re:Chemistry joke

[slider3618]

I love bad puns !

Re:Chemistry joke

[Icarus1919]

Kudos.

Yes,

[Anonymous Coward]

Mr. President, you'll be able to breath when you get there.

Making oxygen is one thing....

[EmbeddedJanitor]

Keeping it in the atmosphere is quite another and is largely a function of gravity.

Re:Making oxygen is one thing....

[Phroggy]

Sure, but if we were to build an air-tight structure, it'd be nice to know we'd have something to fill it with.

Re:Making oxygen is one thing....

[mcvos]

Keeping it in the atmosphere is quite another and is largely a function of gravity.

As I understand it (but I don't have a link at hand), Mars would be able to hold on to an Earth-like atmosphere for a few million years. That's not a lot on an astronomical scale, but plenty for human life and the forseeable future.

Re:Making oxygen is one thing....

[osu-neko]

It ought to be able to hold an Earth-like atmosphere indefinitely. It's not like an Earth-density atmosphere is anywhere near as dense as an atmosphere could be on an Earth-sized body. Two bodies to consider: Venus has an atmosphere much thicker than Earth's -- 90 atmospheres pressure at surface level, and Titan also at an atmosphere thicker than Earth's, with only a fraction of the mass of Mars. Mars is most definitely not too small to hold a dense atmosphere. It just doesn't happen to at the moment.

Or maybe not?

[anadem]

Or maybe not, based on data from the Viking missions:

http://www.space.com/news/spacehistory/viking_life_010728-1.html

"Photos taken on Mars' surface of a Viking magnetic experiment on both landers show material clinging to the magnets. That suggests to Levin that whatever the surface processes are on Mars, they are not innately highly oxidizing. A highly oxidizing soil would convert magnetized materials to oxidized forms. Therefore, the magnet would be free of such particles.

"Similarly, the Mars Pathfinder mission in 1997, Levin added, also had significant amounts of magnetic material adhering to magnets attached to the spacecraft.

"Levin said that the paradigm of a Mars sterilized by a highly oxidizing surface is "too embedded in our scientific fabric to be set aside even by demonstrated proofs. He points to a John F. Kennedy quote that says 'the great enemy of truth is often not the lie --deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.'"

Re:Or maybe not?

[Goldsmith]

Do you really think hundreds of scientists, all out to prove each other wrong would overlook highly publicized results? Or maybe the one guy saying something different is wrong.

Another name for iron oxide?

Magnetite.

If that's not good enough, hematite, another form of iron oxide is magnetic at lower Martian surface temperatures. Any kid who has gone out to the desert with a magnet knows that you can pick up all sorts of stuff with it. Maybe people should try a little experimental verification before they claim the entire scientific community is lying (or perpetuating a myth if that sounds better).

Re:Or maybe not?

[gregbot9000]

From that same article "Cause of the result, and still widely held: A chemical practical joker is in the soil, some sort of oxidant that fooled the LR experiment."

They have still not found organics. But they have found an oxidizer, be it in only one test. I can't say about the magnetic metals from any articles, but I have run magnets on the beach and picked up lots of iron, and I can think of no more rust prone place.

Re:Or maybe not?

[Ken_g6]

Actually, perchlorate kind of makes sense. According to Wikipedia, perchlorate is a strong oxidizer; but "Most perchlorate compounds...are slow to react unless heated."

This could mean it's too cold on Mars for all the iron to have oxidized - assuming the parent's article is correct and what attached to the magnets wasn't oxidized. But once Viking heated a soil sample, the perchlorate had enough energy to go to work. It's like diamond - heat it enough and it turns into graphite (pencil lead); but you'll never see diamond turn into graphite at room temperature.

OMG!

[Anonymous Coward]

Mars is made of OXYCLEAN!!!

Oh wait... it's perchlorate not percarbonate.

Never mind...

are you kidding?

[Anonymous Coward]

So who had the job of explaining this to Pres. Bush, and how long did it take before he understood?

Dick: Mr. President, we've found perchlorates on Mars!

Prez: Pergo-weights, what are those?

Dick: Well Mr. President, perchlorates can be used in weapons of mass destruction.

Prez: WMD, sounds we should invade right away!

Dick: No problem, Mr. President, we've already got a plan in motion...

Some explosive chemicals hidden in the remote desert? That's got to be the easiest thing ever for Pres. Bush to understand.

News Conference on Tuesday LunchTime

[wooferhound]

The News Conference is on Tuesday, Aug. 5, at 2 p.m. EDT, but it's not on TV, it's streaming audio from Here...
http://www.nasa.gov/news/media/newsaudio/index.html

Re:News Conference on Tuesday LunchTime

[elrous0]

Here, I'll summarize what they're going to say. "Well boys, we've got two lots of news for you--one good, one bad. The good news is that we'll be able to synthesize return-trip rocket fuel from the Martian soil, for our manned mission. The bad news is that there is no point in going there now, because the same soil makes life there pretty much impossible."

Blame Microsoft

[EmbeddedJanitor]

Brown sticky stuff?? My first though is that MS has been dumping Zunes.

Perchlorates are a normal part of decomposing electronic devices.

Re:Blame Microsoft

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

Or blended Zunes

you're right...

[Anonymous Coward]

No way am I believing that mars has perchlorates now!

This has happened before

[bunbuntheminilop]

I read a national geographic from many years ago, and the previous landers (from the 1970's?) basically did this, quickly came to the conclusion of life, and then realised that there was an oxidant in the soil making a mess of things. Does anyone remember this?

How Surprising!!

[AbsoluteXyro]

A highly oxidizing substance on the surface of the rusty red planet? STOP THE PRESSES!

Where have they gone? Anywhere but Earth

[renegadesx]

"And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space, cause there's bugger all down here on Earth"

Re:would nasa really meet white house to discuss s

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, according to the Twitter page there never was a briefing on the JPL Phoenix program. I myself do not know whether there ever was a White House meeting at all (never read a good source on that one) but I do know JPL runs some other interesting programs, like NEO , which might be worth briefing about :-p.

Perchlorate is nor Per Chocolate

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps my speed reading got ahead of me, perhaps I want to eat chocolate, but I damn near twisted my neck with the double take that I got from misreading the headline.

I wish they would just admit it already!!

[caywen]

Cmon NASA, stop being coy. You found it didn't you? I'm bummed you won't report on the ancient Martian gateway into deep inside the planet, marked with ancient pictoglyphic scriptures with overtones from Egypt. You know you have it. You know you've found the interdimensional gateway where your inside people had supersecret meetings with The Progenitor, a master being who designed evolution here on Earth. What's with this wussy "interesting chemical" crap?

This would clear up a few things

[Eicos]

Back in the 70's, NASA ran an experiment on one of the Viking landers to try to see if there was any life on Mars. The experiment contained some radiolabeled "food," to which a sample of regolith and water would be added. If radiolabeled gas evolved from the resulting mixture and was detected, it would be taken as a sign that some kind of native microbe was eating the food and emitting the gas as a byproduct of anaerobic respiration. And in fact, the experiment did detect radiolabeled gas. However, none of the other analyses turned up positive, including the mass spectrometer. So scientists floated an alternative theory: that the Martian regolith contained some kind of oxidizing agent, which would have explained both the evolution of radiolabeled gas, and the absence of life on Mars. Most scientists accepted this theory, but even to this day, there were a few who believed it was a little bit too convenient, and that the labeled release experiment had actually turned up evidence of life. The discovery of perchlorate, a strong oxidizing agent, would put that speculation to rest.

Re:This would clear up a few things

[Anonymous Coward]

Dr. Levin's Labeled Release experiment showed a strong positive response for life. Here is the crazy part and the part your mistaken about - all similar experiments on the Viking missions did as well.

Great scientists like Carl Sagan felt we had "evidence up to our eyebrows" but we also had uncertainty. Oxidizers were a possibility but none known (including percolates) explained the results.

Now we have one experiment giving us two results. Percolates in one sample none in another.

Ya know what? I think we have gotten back to uncertainty. It's a great thing. It's the greatest driver of science. No need to be ashamed of it.

Re:This would clear up a few things

[noname444]

So, basically, the viking landers discovered either life or an oxidizing agent on mars. And now, days after the president has been briefed about extraterrestrial life, NASA presents that they found an oxidizing agent. Yes, you're right, it's very convenient!

Re:This would clear up a few things

[w0mprat]

An excellent observation. Putting this another way, they oberved the release of oxygen from the viking samples. I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned already, I guess the Viking days are not too fresh in anyone's memory. So perchlorate isn't necessarily a bad thing for life on mars.. not microbial life but astronauts, could literally obtain oxygen from the soil.

Re:This would clear up a few things

[gregbot9000]

Heres an Interesting take:

http://www.space.com/news/spacehistory/viking_life_010728-1.html

Mostly it has to do with date that shows the gas exhibited circadian rhythm, and the presence of ferris metals that should not be there. Only one test has yet showed the oxidizer so no actual chance of certainty on the life question yet.
If they do prove the oxidizer, would that rule out all life on mars? or only recent and continuous life?

Re:This would clear up a few things

[Ihlosi]

If they do prove the oxidizer, would that rule out all life on mars?

No. It would rule out Earth-like life close to the surface. There could still be life underground, or extremophiles that have adapted to the chemical composition of the surface. Heck, an oxidizer is a dangerous, but also highly useful material. Get something that you can oxidize, and you've got an energy source.

Re:This would clear up a few things

[khallow]

Dr. Levin's Labeled Release experiment showed a strong positive response for life. Here is the crazy part and the part your mistaken about - all similar experiments on the Viking missions did as well.

There were no similar experiments to the labeled release experiment.

Now we have one experiment giving us two results. Percolates in one sample none in another.

A simple explanation is that perchlorates aren't uniformly distributed. At a glance, it appears the first sample, the one that didn't find perchlorates, was taken from dust above the layer of ice, and the second was taken from the ice layer. That actually makes sense since water, even in ice form is a good source of oxygen and an easy way to transport ions (like chlorine and perchlorate) around, you just need to knock the hydrogen off (say via occasional exposure to sunlight and UV radiation) to get an oxydizing environment in which perchlorates can form and let your ions migrate.

Re:This would clear up a few things

[Beezlebub33]

The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the most discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "Hm...that's funny..." ~Isaac Asimov

Re:This would clear up a few things

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe we could use martian soil as an alternative fuel? Just make sure to not burn more fuel in the transport!

Tags are your friend...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_oxygen_generator

Retro-Rockets?.....

[IHC Navistar]

Chances are, this source of unburned perchorate is from retro-rockets from either American or Soviet landers. I highly doubt that this is naturally occuring, since there are records of Soviet and American landers that crashed on the surface, presumably with unused or partiall-used retro-rockets.

I know that the Soviets employed landers that collected samples, loaded then into a re-entry capsule, and then launched them back to Earth, where they were recovered. I'm not sure if the Soviet probes landed on Mars used the same method, though. However, I am definitely sure that the source of the perchlorate found on Mars is from retro-rockets that was swept up and widely dispersed by massive Martian sandstorms, and is not naturally occuring.

Re:Retro-Rockets?.....

[sznupi]

No Mars probes used perchlorates. And even if some did...do you realise the difference in scale between miniscule amounts such probe would care and the whole f***ing planet?

Re:Retro-Rockets?.....

[kylegordon]

Because, clearly, a dozen or so spent or unspent rockets are enough to contaminate an entire planet to levels higher than background noise...

Re:Retro-Rockets?.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats just hilarious. That's like saying, since I screwed with a few dozen of women on planet Earth, chances are I screwed your mother.

So either get your logic right or deal with it boy!

Re:Retro-Rockets?.....

[alexborges]

This sounds SO, SO, SO improbable.

At least to me. Ya think they land in previously landed places?

I mean its a whole planet. It would seem to me that if you calculate a, say 1000 kilometer radius from your landing site that is "clean" (noone landed inside the circle) by our records, this posibility you point out is highly improbable to happen.

Even more so if you pick the lannding at random.

In any case, i would be astonished to find out that they knowingly went in and landed in a contaminated site: everything we touch there we contaminate.

Oblig. Dune Quote

[phreakincool]

"The spice must flow."

OK, work with me here...See? There's all this salty stuff in the ground...Oh, nevermind.

Re: mods on crack

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone please bitch slap the moderator that modded this redundant.

Hint: I posted this at least an hour before the GP got its +funny moderation.

Re: mods on crack

[quitte]

It helps us that learned english late in their lives to figure out what word to look up in a dictionary.

I agree. unfair moderation.

Pit Stop?

[8ball629]

Sounds like Mars is going to be the first inter-planetary "gas station" with all that rocket fuel up there. Just a couple more decades until OPEC sends a crew up there to start mining and refining it.

Get it while it's cheap!

Understanding

[Digital End]

I'm of course interested in the source of this... as an oxidizing chemical on mars indicates there was a lot of oxygen on mars at one time.

That after we conferm there was water. I think that's the big news. That sucker was 100% habitable at one time. It's a bit of a fixer upper, old owner let it go to hell... but who knows. Some curtains and a new climate and we might be in business.

Side note: Wonder if whatever society is sending probes to earth 500 million years from now is going to say the same thing, haha

Re:Understanding

[Arimus]

Reckon in 500m years from now there will be the equivalent a large keep out/danger of death sign on our solar system after we've screwed it up - the kind you see on toxic waste dumps :)

Re:Understanding

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe the ancient Martians drove each other to extinction with chloridic WMD's?

Conspiracy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, no one said it yet.

Cmon. They briefed the white house
about perchlorates? Really? They took time
to tell the prez about perchlorates?

SpaceGeek: Mr President, we found perchlorates.

Bush: Great, we can have blondes on Mars!

SpaceGeek: No, Mr President, not peroxide, perchlorates.

\\\\\ + /////

Really? It wasn't about LGMs? Not even microbial ones?

-AI
[AlienIntelligence]

Re:Conspiracy...

[osu-neko]

Cmon. They briefed the white house about perchlorates? Really?

Yes.

They took time to tell the prez about perchlorates?

No. Is there some reason you believe the first implies the second? Are you under the impression that the only person in the White House is the president, or do you just suck at reading comprehension?

Re:Conspiracy...

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

I think the President would certainly want to hear about LGBTs on Mars. The military option is not off the table.

Oooooh LGMs.... what's that?

hey,

[Anonymous Coward]

That's no planet!

Re:would nasa really meet white house to discuss s

[Latinhypercube]

What shit head marked this as off topic ? An evangelical nutter perhaps ?

Naturally occuring perchlorate is to rocket fuel

[patio11]

... as an arbitrary pile of carbon/oxygen compounds is to Jessica Alba.

(And every conclusory sentence I tried tacking onto that sounded obscene, so I'll let you work out the implication.)

Rust Rocket Booster

[JumperCable]

Great. So we have oxygen & iron. Somehow I don't think we are going to get lift off from Mars with a Rust Powered Rocket Booster.

Re:Rust Rocket Booster

[Ellis D. Tripp]

Perchlorate and rust (iron oxide) are 2 of the 4 ingredients needed to make solid rocket fuel. Add some powdered aluminum and an synthetic rubber binder, and you have the same stuff that the shuttle SRBs are filled with....

Extremophiles?

[JumperCable]

Do we have any extremophiles that life in a highly oxidizing environment?

Re:Extremophiles?

[Ihlosi]

Do we have any extremophiles that life in a highly oxidizing environment?

Yes. Most of it likes its oxygen as a gas, though, and not as part of a solid compound. Compared to what Earth was like when life began, it is a highly oxidizing environment now. Life hasn't just adapted to cope with it, it has literally become addicted to the stuff.

Like a million voices...

[Anonymous Coward]

The module is supposed to takeof at some point, right ?
So, are they planning to leave a planet behind, or just an asteroid field ?

good for life

[speedtux]

This actually seems like it's good for life. Perchlorate isn't so bad that it kills everything (in fact, it's probably less aggressive than atmospheric oxygen), but it's a ready-made energy source for microbes.

The Martians Have...

[crabbie]

...really healthy thyroids.

Perchorate is not a substance!

[Gonoff]

It is an ion. Was it perhaps Calcium perchlorate, hydrogen perchlorate or something else. Maybe it was Uranium perchlorate?

Saying it was perchlorate is as meaningless as saying that the sea is full of hydroxide, In fact H20 is hydrogen hydroxide - or water. We need a more meaningful statement...

Re:Perchorate is not a substance!

[Anonymous Coward]

Except, of course, that these are results from the wet chemistry lab. Which means they dissolved the samples in water. Which means that all the ions dissolved. Which means, that regardless of what it started out as, when they got around to analyzing it it wasn't any sort of ionic-bonded crystal, but a hydrated perchlorate ion. So they can't tell what it is bonded to in the solid form. After dissociation, a mixture of sodium chloride and potassium perchlorate looks exactly the same as a mix of potassium chloride and sodium perchlorate. You could make a guess based on which cations they found, but it would only be a guess.

By the way, water is kept together with covalent bonds, whereas __blank__ perchlorate is kept together by a ionic bonds. Two rather different things.

Re:Perchorate is not a substance!

[steelfood]

the sea is full of hydroxide

We must make every effort to cleanse our seas of this life-threatening chemical!

And while we're at it, we should filter out all the DHMO as well.

Re:Perchorate is not a substance!

[R3d M3rcury]

In fact H20 is hydrogen hydroxide [...]

Phew! I was worried that it was dihydrogen monoxide. That stuff'll kill you!

Perchlorate Enables Terraforming!

[flnca]

Perchlorate might be the first step to terraforming Mars. Like with huge machines that heat soil components to produce oxygen, as was seen in the alien artifact of the movie Total Recall. It could also be used on smaller scale to create rocket fuel and oxygen for life support systems.

Re:Perchlorate Enables Terraforming!

[ZackZero]

It will at least be able to provide a means of generating oxygen for a manned mission to Mars' surface, provided the necessary machinery would be light enough to transport there.

Re:Oxidizer

[GargamelSpaceman]

Hmm, also, those oxygen generating candles they use to supply oxygen to the facemasks that drop down in airplanes are perchlorate. So to generate oxygen for mars space missions may be as simple as diging it out of the ground and lighting it off..

Re:chilean fertilizer???

[GargamelSpaceman]

I somehow doubt that perchlorates are an intentional component of fertilizer. More like a contaminant.

Perchlorates such as sodium perchlorate can be made by electrolysing NaCl water. The NaCl first becomes NaOCl ( Sodium Hypoclorite aka Bleach ) then Sodium Chlorite and then Sodium Chlorate ( NaClO3 ). Sodium Chlorate is WEED KILLER. Then finally another oxygen is added to make NaClO4 ( Sodium Perchlorate ).

I doubt a bulk commoditity product like fertilizer would be made that would likely be contaminated with weed killer unless great care were taken. 'Great care' would be too expensive for something that is supposed to be cheap such as fertilizer.

Yes, there is hydrogen and oxygen produced in electrolysis of saltwater, but some of the oxygen oxygenates the Cl to make ClOx where X = 1, 2, 3, or 4. You'll notice less than half the oxygen ( by volume ) is produced than hydrogen. The missing O2 goes to turning Cl- into ClOx-

i for one

[nimbius]

welcome our new perchlorate overlords

I, for one, wellcome our new...

[operon]

... Martian Dechloromonas overlords.
http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Dechloromonas_aromatica
http://jb.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/187/15/5090

Re:Wow, you are so original!

[arthurpaliden]

I know, isn't it great.

same as Viking results?

[peter303]

Viking explicitly tested for "biological activity" and had a false-positive result due to an oxidizing soil. I think they blamed it on a peroxide at that time, but Viking didnt have as accuratate analyszers as Phoenix has.
I recall it was Carl Sagan who suggested biological life was locally anti-entropic and one should look for chemical disequilibriums like free oxygen or methane. Over time these substances naturally move into lower energy states through chemical reactions if life wasn't present. However, planetary surfaces and interiors may not be closed energy systems. Mars soil is bombarded by solar UV; Io is heated by Jupiter tidal stress. These energy injections can create life-like chemical disequilibriums too.

Hmmm.

[WindBourne]

Good point on the Oxygen generator. Now, I wonder if there is a funny statue which a funny hand fits in.

Mod parent INSIGHTFUL, not funny

[Man On Pink Corner]

This is the best news Phoenix could possibly have delivered.

Perchlorate does mean there's all the oxygen we'll ever need on Mars. I'd rather they found perchlorate than fucking oil. It means that humans can live and work there, and it strongly suggests that there is probably no life that we'd have to worry about preserving and protecting, at least in this region of the planet.

Strong oxidizers are just what you want to find when you're 100 million miles from home and low on gas.

George W. Bush?

[Anonymous Coward]

The teleconference stated that extremophiles in the Atacama desert on Earth lifes in perchlorate environments

Source of the Mars perchlorate

[Anonymous Coward]

Since Earth natural sources are largely from ancient dried saline seabeds, the Mars perchlorate may indicate an ancient seabed nearby (although the Mars winds could have carried it even around the planet over the last billion years.) It may also be from Mars dust storm lightning - if there is lightning. But the NASA preliminary info doesn't indicate whether the perchlorate was a trace amount or a firecracker's worth.
It would be interesting to know if there was microbial life found in the Earth perchlorate sources.
As well, since at least a couple of the landers have magnets that have attracted iron, i.e. unoxidized, it would seem that one or both of the iron and perchlorate are from more localized sources and not utterly homogenous across the surface.
Still, it would seem that any possibly remaining microbes from Mar's ancient days of water would be well under the surface, and not even close to the toy-like scratch-and-sniff machine poking around on the top couple of centimeters on the surface. The landers are essentially geology probes; useful and great for geology, with a small glance towards biology.

http://books.google.com/books?id=jlgBMowCT1YC&pg=PT28&lpg=PT28&dq=chilean+fertilizer+perchlorate&source=web&ots=A56BtkYCBa&sig=9fHhMscL4SSweY_rtohmLGCjbBI&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=38&ct=result