Interview With an EVE Pirate

Within any game, especially massive games, there is usually a well established culture. This of course ultimately leads to some sort of counterculture (usually a la griefer). CCP's EVE has been able to give life to a counterculture that isn't completely destructive and makes for a very rich gameplay experience. Massively recently had a chance to sit down with one of EVE's leading criminals to discuss life as an outlaw. "One notable criminal organization devoted to piracy is Veto Corp, headed by their CEO Ethan Verone, who is without a doubt one of New Eden's more notorious pirates. Under his guidance, Veto Corp has been linked to numerous incidents of ransoming, hijacking, and illegal arms sales, among their many other crimes. Their modus operandi of shunning territorial control in favor of remaining fast and free ensures that Veto can conduct 'business' and hit targets anytime, and practically anywhere."

Comments

so much for notorius

[poetmatt]

I don't speak for all of Eve players, but I've certainly never heard of them.

Re:so much for notorius

[elrous0]

In his mind, he's a legend. In real life, a fry cook at Denny's.

Re:so much for notorius

[Sta7ic]

I don't recognize the character's name, but VETO's been around the block long enough to curb stomp a lot of other corps (guilds). Mean customers that most of the old hats know well enough to take seriously.

Re:so much for notorius

[Sta7ic]

Never dealt with VETO. I'd imagine they'd have fewer numbers, but a LOT more T2 cruisers & T2 battlecruisers. It's an apples-to-oranges comparison, though, since BoB is territorial and "holds space", while VETO looks for soft targets to pirate.

Re:so much for notorius

[Chris Burke]

In his mind, he's a legend. In real life, a fry cook at Denny's.

That's just his secret identity!

Re:so much for notorius

[indy_Muad'Dib]

you spelt it wrong, its BoD.

Band of Developers.

they run into problems they have their pet admins fix it for them.

Yar!

[Kingrames]

Just doin his part to keep EVE Online free of Global Warming.

Re:Yar!

[The Iso]

The pirate/temperature graph has been part of FSM scriptures since the beginning.

ugh god

[deathtopaulw]

this is why I love eve
the developers don't try to shelter their users
they openly designed it so there could be things like this.

eve is a real mmo the way it should be done

Re:ugh god

[elrous0]

And this is why Eve will forever remain a niche MMO. Fine and dandy with me if it helps keeps the assholes off WoW and Guild Wars.

Re:ugh god

[darkwing_bmf]

No problem. I tried Eve. I found that the only way to beat the game, if griefing is not your style, is to not play. The game is made for griefers and, at it's core, is nothing more than an unbalanced pvp game. The few times one of the corps I joined pvped, it was mind numbingly boring (space is big). And when I was solo trying to mine, well, there was no point really. The missions get old. Honestly, if all the carebears would use some common sense and stay away, the pirates would have nothing left to do and the game would die. Pirates never fight on even terms (they always hide when out gunned), which means if there were only pirates, they'd either be waiting out other pirates that were hiding (boring) or they'd be hiding themselves from bigger pirates (also boring).

Re:ugh god

[azuredrake]

It's not newbie friendly at all, in that it takes literally years of paying CCP your monthly fee in order to reach the point where you can fly the big ships that bring in the massive profits.

EveMon will let you see how long it would take you and how much ISK (Eve money) it would cost you. Basically, I quit when I realized I'd get more enjoyment running a mining bot for two years while I was at work than I would if I were actually playing.

Re:ugh god

[Das Modell]

Yes, because wanting to play a game without some sociopath constantly ruining and interrupting it is being a "carebear." Give me a fucking break.

Re:ugh god

[Rakshasa Taisab]

I don't grief yet I find it enjoyable to play. (non-carebear industrialist) Think of the griefers as NPC's, as if AI had advanced (or receded) 100 years. They are your opponents in the game.

If you keep thinking of the other players as 'intruding on _YOUR_ game', you'll never understand EVE. The players are the game, not the brainless rats.

Re:ugh god

[Anonymous Coward]

WoW is populated by angsty teens with too much free time on their hands.

Eve is populated by their parents.

Re:ugh god

[HanClinto]

If you keep thinking of the other players as 'intruding on _YOUR_ game', you'll never understand EVE. The players are the game, not the brainless rats.

Wow, that was insightful, thanks.

In all seriousness, this may be one reason why I've never understood EVE.

I'm intrigued.

Re:ugh god

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no "beating" Eve. It's an expansive MMO with an ongoing storyline. It's massive to the point that no single person - regardless of how many accounts they own and how much free time they have - can fully explore all parts of the game from all points of view.

Yes, the game starts out slow. And it has to - the interface is so complex, powerful, and loaded with features that you'd be lost beyond hope if it started out fast-paced. The gameplay starts out slow for the first few days (unless you immediately join a 0.0 corp) so you can learn how to use enough of what's available to you to actually accomplish something.

Carebears can do just fine in Eve. In fact, you can do just fine in a big corp in a big alliance in Eve living in 0.0. As long as there are plenty of others around you to fullfill other roles (security, intel, defense, etc), you can sit and mine all day every day if you want. Or you can salvage ship components. Or you can trade on the market. There's a ton of money to be made for anyone who moves ships and equipment to 0.0 space. Alternatively, you can avoid corps altogether and run around high-sec all day every day. As long as you're in a 0.5+ system, the chances of getting ganked are about 10,000 to 1. Having played for years, I've never once been suicide-ganked in high-sec empire space. And honestly? I've never heard of anyone I know getting ganked in high-sec empire space.

And of course pirates don't fight on even terms. What kind of idiot would? Do you get extra points for winning an evenly-matched fight? No, you get a damaged ship and/or damaged equipment. (ie. you get a repair bill). It's a brutally open universe. I can get 20 of my best pals together with battleships and sit on low sec gates all day blasting the Hell out of people in the tiniest of ships. No one forces them to go through there. The game provides ample information for finding out about gate camps before anything is lost. So why do people decide to blow through without paying attention? Laziness, ignorance, or some other personal problem. Want safety in low-sec? Have someone scout for you. Want to safely transport expensive good across large, dangerous areas? Contract out the job.

Eve is a game where you can go for years without dying if you're smart and pay attention (and are highly averse to risk). However, one of the beautiful things about Eve is that no matter how much you die, no matter how much you lose, you can always come right back. Ships and equipment are disposable in Eve. Once you get used to the fact that you ARE going to lose everything at some point (unless, again, you play the 'safe' game), it becomes a whole lot easier to accept loss.

There have been times when I've been trapped in a hostile system with no chance for escape. Did I cry in a teacup because of that? No, I joked on the local channel (which is viewable to all in the same system) with the guys trying to kill me. I did what I could to throw off their scans, I ran for the gate when I had the best possible chance, and then I got popped. Did I run around screaming and crying and calling people names? No, I updated my clone and went about my business.

Eve is not a game that will coddle you. It is not a game for people who can't handle losing. It's definitely not a game for people who are terrified at the thought of not being safe by the design of the game. Eve is wide, wide open, and has just enough safety built in to make for a good story and a reasonable chance to get yourself started.

Re:ugh god

[shannara256]

Basically, I quit when I realized I'd get more enjoyment running a mining bot for two years while I was at work than I would if I were actually playing.

In that case, have I got a game for you: http://www.progressquest.com/

Re:ugh god

[tukkayoot]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Pirate isn't really a player class in Eve.

Well, yeah. Since EVE doesn't have any player classes, the role you play is your occputation which is your "class" of sorts. In WoW, sometimes class feels like little more than window dressing, and people think more in terms of "tank, healer or DPS," with class distinctions only becoming really important in certain tactical situations.

As a pirate in EVE you choose to ruin other people's evenings by destroying their hard earned ships and taking their equipment. You can achieve the same thing in a WoW PVP, by going around and ganking noobs of the other faction while they try to finish quests.

Yes, you can grief in either game. The difference is, in WoW, the consequences of having your character killed are relatively minor. It's an annoyance. If the griefers are persistent, it can become a major frustration for that play session. Griefing in this event is something that doesn't really profit the griefers, it's just a person being an asshole.

In EVE, however, there can be real consequences to failure and misfortune. You can lose a large percentage of your character's net worth in a single incident. Likewise, as a pirate, you can make a big score by destroying or ransoming the right ship. I personally think that's pretty cool, but I can see how it doesn't appeal to everyone. "Pointless" griefing still happens, but most people would prefer to turn a profit. This means that in EVE, you always have to calculate the risk of undocking. You balance the advantages of flying an expensive ship (or carrying expensive cargo/modules) against the advantages of doing so, and if you figure you're vulnerable, you can take other precautions (scout your route ahead of time, fly a tougher or more evasive ship, arrange an escort, etc.) The high [potentially] high stakes are all a part of the game, and is a part of the relatively unique allure of EVE.

In WoW, you can also be a market profiteer, a crafter, a guild backstabber, and oooh even a fisherman (beat that EVE)!

All of this is true, but in EVE, the market/industrial aspect of the game is a bigger part of the overall picture, and has a more robust implementation in game mechanics.

You can't really talk up EVE's immersion too much because when you run the exact same mission 18 times you should begin to think: "Didn't I already destroy this NPC pirate stronghold?"

This is an issue for every MMO in existence. If it's not repetitive missions, it's repetitive raids and instances. As NightRain already pointed out, the "sandbox" and more player-driven, player vs. player style of play makes EVE's flaws in this regard somewhat easier to forgive.

Re:ugh god

[kv9]

And this is why Eve will forever remain a niche MMO.

this is why I also like EVE. the developers dont compromise and try to cater to the needs of constant whiners. they offer you a lot of possibilities but the learning curve (and universe) is ruthless. this way the community is pretty mature and dedicated.

Fine and dandy with me if it helps keeps the assholes off WoW and Guild Wars.

have fun playing with your dolls. we will have fun playing with our fucking SPACESHIPS. in space!

Re:ugh god

[pilot1]

Big ships are not required for massive profits. I make billions of isk every month by simply studying the market and manipulating it. All that's required for that is a good Production Efficiency level (about a week to train to level 4), and optionally some trading skills. There are many, many ways to make isk in game, even for PVP players like me who have never bothered to try mining.

Re:ugh god

[phlegmboy]

How long did you play the game for? A week? A month? I spent my first two years in a player owned corp, building up my character. I did the boring stuff like running missions, mining for hours on end, all the while learing skills and learning the game. Now I am in a 0.0 based alliance, shooting other people in 0.0, having great fun. Unlike other MMO's which suit those short of attention span, Eve requires a long term commitment. Hell, just getting your toon to the point where it is learning skills at it's most effective rate takes a month. Being able to effectively able to fly a battleship (still the core PVP ship despite the proliferatio of capital and super-capital ships) takes months. Building up the assets for PVP can take even longer than that. Sure, you could shortcut the process and buy a toon with all the required ingame skills to fly, for example a carrier, from someone else but you would not have the experience that is naturally acquired through coming up through the ranks and file, so to speak. Experience in things such as fleet flying, the feel for how the ship reacts, ship fitouts, handling lag, and how to react when suddenly faced with a large fleet of evil red ships, all hellbent on turning your ship into dust and you into a frozen corpse. Unfortunately, one thing I have noticed is that WoW players who come over for a taste of real pvp will often just jump in their shiny new rookie ship and trundle off to losec, ignore the warnings about the dangers of losec space and that there is no protection from the law and then bitch and moan when they start solo mining in a belt only to get ganked by pirates. Lowsec space tends to be the domain of people who see themselves as pirates. In the time I have been playing I have been ganked or ransomed by pirates twice. Once as a 3 week old noob when I was with a mate mining in lowsec and not paying attention to my overview and the other because I was flying a ship while tired, didn't pay attention to who was around me or to intel and had the wrong fit. Rather than bitch and moan about griefing I learned from the experiences and have not lost a ship in a non-combat situation since. I have flown my ship unmolested through hostile space, outsmarted gate camps and pursuit in my hauler but I know that I still have a hell of a lot to learn. It is a long steep learning curve with many branches. But the good thing abut Eve is that, simply by buying the right skills you came do what you want, be that miner, builder, corporate or alliance leader, or ebil pirate. But it takes patience.

Re:ugh god

[Sobrique]

EVE is all about the players. The market is player opposition and competition. Asteroid belts get mined out by other miners. Lab space and factory time is a contended resource. Missions and NPCs exist, and they're... ok, and getting better, but basically are just a side event - another resource to be exploited, as part of the multi-player RTS that is EVE.

I've been playing for ... 3, 4 years now? I forget. But it's a while, and obviously I'm therefore biased. But I'm forever saddened by the number of people who play EVE, spend 6 weeks grinding missions, and then declaring it 'meh boring' and leave again. Yes, there's parts of EVE that are boring. But there's a whole lot of other stuff to do - anything you can think of, you can go and do. That's part of the problem with it - you don't ever get told what to do, beyond those basic missions, you just have to decide to go do it. EVE is about making your own fun, which doesn't suit everyone - if what you want to do is get told by an NPC to go kill 50 rats, frankly WOW does it better. If you want an open ended game, that's a single universe, and you can do whatever you want, provided you have the firepower to back up your will, then that's EVE. You're free to do whatever. You're free to lead, you're free to follow, and you're free to fail. Player vs. Player means you're climbing the ladder, and sometimes you're stepping on the shoulders of others to get a boost. Some will do so willingly, some will ... object.

It's not a game for everyone. Not everyone likes strategy games, not everyone likes winning at a cost of someone else losing. Not everyone like a game that requires you to think, plan and organise extensively - large scale fleet deployments in EVE can take significant amounts of effort. Or rather, significant amounts of effort if you want to win. It can also be necessary to abort an operation, having 'wasted' an evening of gaming, because fighting today you'll lose, because they're ready for you. Some will charge anyway, lose ships, and maybe have fun doing so. Others will not, and will go home, or do something else. This can be very frustrating, and does have an impact on morale - and morale is also important in EVE. It's a managable resource like anything else.

As said, I've played for ages, and still love it. I know others won't - some just won't like it, and others will come to the game thinking the 'wrong way' to get ahead. But I still get the shiver down my spine, and pumping adrenaline when engaging in a serious fight, and there's remarkably few games that still do that for me.

Unique...

[Last_Available_Usern]

Eve is very unique in that there is only one universe. In Warcraft, if you develop a bad name, you can change servers, even change your name. If Eve, you have to make the best (or worst) of whatever lifestyle you choose to follow. As a Lawful Good resident, Eve quickly became a little terrifying since the only way I could expand my experience of the game was to move into less-friendly territory, something I was slightly reluctant to do with a Navy Raven with the best equipment. I suppose I (and others like me) could hop into a clone and take a cheap ship anywhere we wanted and experience that universe, but it just seemed too much like starting over. As more and more people grow into the position I was, we'll probably see an ever growing ratio of pirates to lawful citizens. At that point it will be very interesting to see what direction the game takes. It will probably be a Mad Max world at that point.

Re:Unique...

[im_thatoneguy]

Or you find yourself alone in a scary place and you team up. You start a militia and you maintain peace about yourself at the point of a well fueled missile barge.

If it's dangerous to wander out into the dangerous bits... form your own gang to survive. Soon your gang becomes a colony and then a fleet and then a nation... and suddently the dangerous bits are just home.

Death system

[Drakin020]

I think a lot of this has to do with the price of death.

When you die, you loose your ship and that can hurt a lot. This causes players to think more before they act. It offeres a bit of suspense when one gets into a battle. No other game has this, and if the death system was not the way it was then EVE would crumble.

If you die and get your ship back for free, what's the point?

Re:Death system

[Cornflake917]

When you die, you loose your ship and that can hurt a lot. This causes players to think more before they act. It offeres a bit of suspense when one gets into a battle. No other game has this, and if the death system was not the way it was then EVE would crumble

Since the price of death is so high in EVE, you never really get to see too much PVP. And when battles do occur, it's usually very lopsided. If your fleet leader is halfway intelligent, he doesn't engage in battles that would destroy half his Corp's ships, but doesn't hesitate to attack when he has the clear advantage. Sometimes there are large battles that are fun, but those are usually lag fests. It's disappointing when a PVP oriented game has such boring and flawed PVP.

I personally don't see the appeal of spending hours and hours on obtaining something (virtual mind you) and then possibly loosing it. Especially when outside factors like lag (which EVE has issues with) can be the sole reason why you lose your ship. EVE is like Diablo2 with only the hardcore option. I graduated college and have a job now. My "hardcore" gaming phase is over.

Re:Death system

[Drakin020]

That's why I can't stand people who call for WoW like death systems....Hurray...you loose durability. Big deal right?

It brings no strategy or suspense to battles.

Re:Death system

[NightRain]

Since the price of death is so high in EVE, you never really get to see too much PVP.

I don't know when you last played, but since the introduction of faction warfare, PvP is fairly easy to find, and you can get away with using small disposable ships if you want as well, because plenty of others are doing the same.

Re:Death system

[kv9]

Since the price of death is so high in EVE, you never really get to see too much PVP.

have you seen the killboards? in the time I wrote this post, billions of ISK got destroyed in the game because of PVP. that might sound like much for a 2 day old noob (or a player that never played EVE, but knows everything about how "impossible" it is to get startup capital) but in the grand scheme of things, it's nothing.

He's not a pirate!

[BertieBaggio]

He's infringing copyri... oh, I see.

Very well, carry on.

Life as outlaw...

[r2rknot]

Buy cheap ship, gather in groups.

Wait/look for ship you can take down fast to wander by.

Destroy ship, maybe pod the pilot.

Repeat.

Encounter force larger/better then your own.

Return to Station, go afk and watch a movie while they spend hours 'camping' you. You have a good time, and make people spend tedious hours watching your avatar in station.

Obligatory

[Caboosian]

http://www.eve-pirate.com/uploads/LearningCurve.jpg

Claims to be a pirate?

[jollyreaper]

Yah? Does he pay CCP each month? If so, he's a soddin' carebear. Real pirates steal their accounts as well as their l00t.

piracy and eve

[Digitus1337]

Most pirates in EVE, including VETO, are not generally regarded as very good players. They spend most of their time in systems with "low" security status rather than systems with "zero" security status. This amounts to the same as PVPing in the beginner zones of other MMOs, as the game prohibits fighting in "high" security systems. Low security systems still provides some automated defenses for a player that does not initiate combat, tends to have NPC stations (a place in which a player can dock up to hide or repair) and does not allow some of the more advanced ships to operate. These guys are roughly equal to mid-to-high-level horde players that hang out in Redridge.

Is it too late to start?

[dave562]

Every time Eve comes up in discussion I think about checking it out. I get the sense that it is really geared toward people who have lots of time to play it and it isn't very friendly toward casual players. What do you guys think? Is there any point in playing it if I only have 5-10 hours a week to devote to it?

Re:Is it too late to start?

[Anonymous Coward]

Every time Eve comes up in discussion I think about checking it out. I get the sense that it is really geared toward people who have lots of time to play it and it isn't very friendly toward casual players. What do you guys think? Is there any point in playing it if I only have 5-10 hours a week to devote to it?

If you only have 5-10 hours you are going to miss a good deal of what eve has to offer.

Also, the game is insanely hard on newer players.

Re:Is it too late to start?

[Paranatural]

The biggest problem with EVE is that you have to be really committed to it. You can't just sit down and play by yourself a few hours. There's no picking up a PUG and doing something.

They have guilds they call 'Corps' that are generally very big, and they 'own' a certain section of space. If you join that Corp you are usually fairly safe in that area unless another corp comes in to attack. But the thing is, you can't go at anything alone. Or if you do, you'd better be able to run away fast.

The best way to imagine it is almost like being in a RL army. You can't just hop in your jeep, drive to Germany, and have a fight. It'd be you Vs. dozens, or hundreds of them. You have to basically travel in a pack with your guild because alone, you die.

Re:Is it too late to start?

[TheGeniusIsOut]

It is not quite so vicious as others have stated, if you stay in empire space, but the real PvP occurs out in 0.0. To get the hang of the game, you can easily go it solo in empire space running missions for various factions, which can earn you a decent amount of ISK, as well as faction standings that give you discounts on manufacturing/research facilities, and loyalty points which can be spent in special faction stores to get faction specific and higher end items at a reduced monetary cost. My first year was spent mostly running solo missions, building up standings, money, and skills, while extending diplomatic ties to various groups, and gaining insight from some friendly, and some unfriendly, veterans. But like most things of value, you get out of it what you put in. If you only give it a couple of weeks where you spend most of your time complaining about how steep the learning curve is (which is one of the major reasons the average player age is over 20 years old, and not 12-13 like some others)you will not have an enjoyable experience, but if you approach the game with the preconception that there is great diversity in what you can do, and seek out those who can give you advice, you will likely find you enjoy the game, and possibly find yourself a group of like minded individuals to group up with. Many corps even have starting builds they reccomend to new players that want to begin in a particular role, and since you aren't locked into any particular class, you can expand into other areas as you learn and grow. One thing I have heard from dissatisfied players is that they want to know how to "beat" the game, or get to the end game content like there is in other, hack and slash style, MMOs. There is no "end game" to EVE, as it is a dynamic virtual world, with shifting political landscapes, and new expansions adding features, skills, ships, and more on a fairly regular basis, and best of all, they have never charged for an expansion. You pay $20 for the client initially, and can download it from the site at any time, and the base clent download gets updated with the latest patches, so you don't have to spend hours downloading, installing, and then downloading years of patches. I would recommend you give the trial a go, and if you have a Steam account, you can get a 21 day trial. Just be sure to seek out those with more experience, try the recruitment channels, and expect to lose some ships. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, and you just might find yourself a new addiction.

Re:Is it too late to start?

[sammyF70]

The beautifull thing about EVE is that playing doesn't involve actually *PLAYING*. you pay CCP for the right to level while offline.
If you feel the urge to actually go online, you should have some good mining bots. This way, you'll be able to watch a movie on your tv-set in the living room, instead of having to check whether it's time to hit the "return to base to unload button"
Once you've spent enough time not playing, you'll be able to join corporation-wide battles, which involves incredibly high-tech weapons which can kill your opponents half a light year away. Of course, that means you won't actually ever see exciting battles. You'll only survive/be able to stay in your corp, of course, if you do exactly what your commanding officer says. Soloing is *NOT* an option

So, join EVE! It's like real life, you'll work for others while doing highly repetitive tasks,but at least you don't have to log on much!

Re:Is it too late to start?

[NightRain]

I'm a casual player myself. I put in maybe and hour 3 or 4 nights a week, and then whatever time I can get on the weekends. I get by just fine. Unlike most games, Eve lets you train your skills when you're not logged in, so being a casual player is less of a problem than in many other games. That being said, being a casual player in an NPC corp can be very hard (read as boring). Pick up groups are hard to find in EVE, so you end up doing a large amount of stuff by yourself, and often without much assistance. If you've got friends who play the game or can join a corp that has similar interests to you (and there are those out there who will take new players) the game changes hugely. The social aspect, the fact that you now have goals and things to achieve for a reason other than simply making money etc make the game what it is.

Re:Is it too late to start?

[fitten]

Can a handful of Level 5 players in WoW PvP gang up on a Level 60/70 (whatever the max is now) and kill him? Well, it's possible in EVE. If you can fly a frigate and power on a webifier or warp scrambler (if not possible as soon as you create your toon, within an hour of toon creation you can), you can be useful in a gang killing other players who have been playing for years. A huge corporation/alliance in EVE (Goons) once started out this way. The even had videos of large gangs of them teaming up in the noobships (wimpiest, crappiest ships in the game) and killing other players. The largest/most powerful alliance in EVE tried to destroy them and drive them out of the game and, instead, they've become also one of the most powerful alliances in the game. There is no game that has the drama of EVE ;)

Plus, you can gain skills even when you aren't online. The only thing that really requires you to log in are to change skills and to make ISK.

Re:This is a tad over the top...

[TheGeniusIsOut]

CONCORD is the npc police force of EVE, and each empire has their own Navy, but they only patrol in 0.5 or higher (Empire) space. All pilots have a security status ranging from 10.0 to -10.0, which increases for destroying pirate npcs, and decreases from destroying player ships, and decreases even more if you "pod" them. If your security status is below -5.0, you are kill on sight by all police forces in Empire space. And CONCORD has near limitless resources with a fast response time. Then there is the addition of bounties that can be placed on pilots which, for some of the more notorious pirates, reach into the tens, or even hundreds, of billions of ISK, adding incentive for player bounty hunters to track them down and kill them.

Re:This is a tad over the top...

[TopSpin]

It was my understanding that in EVE there really was no law

Eve players have "Security Status". This number is used by the game to enforce certain rules; players with low Security Status cannot enter systems with high security rating, for instance. Players with very low Security Status are not avenged by NPC security forces when they are attacked. Low Security Status is also indicated visually to all players, and bounties may be placed on the head of a player below a certain Security Status. Security Status is altered by certain acts of aggression.

Keep in mind that an Eve player may obtain as low a Security Status as he wishes and still play the game just fine. It's a choice, with consequences. The life of a dedicated "pirate" quite distinct from the common Eve player, yet there is a large, healthy population of them.

That the PvP was full-on and unrestricted

That is overly simplistic. The majority of space in Eve, called 0.0 ("zero zero"), is unrestricted PvP, except for political implications among players, which are not trivial in themselves. The rest is "empire" space where graduated levels of Security are enforced. Exceptions in "empire" also exist in the form of "kill rights", war declarations, faction warfare, criminal status, etc.

Eve is half a decade old now. It is complex. Very few generalizations hold.

Competition

[ZeroConcept]

If anyone is interested about the psychological aspects of competion-based games, I suggest to grab a copy of No Contest By Alfie Kohn:

Google Preview

Makes a interesting case about the underlying stimulus for competition-type personalities. I often found interesting that PvP servers and games attract a specific type of personality, that book makes me feel better about myself in comparison to them (for the humor-impaired that was a joke related to the book).

Re:This is a tad over the top...

[Charcharodon]

PvP is full-on only in several situations.

Your corporation is at war with another corporation. You may then blast each other to bits any time any place.

You join a Faction (one of the 4 races). Then you may kill any member of an opposing faction any time any place. Not all factions hate each other.

Space is divied up in 0.0 to 1.0.

0.5-1.0 is patrolled by NPC's who will come and murder you if you attack another player. This takes time though. Suicide ganking is using throw away ships/pilots to kill a fat target before the authorities can kill you. Then you use a second alt comes in a picks up the loot from your targets wreckage.

0.1-0.4 Gate and station guns will attack you if you attack another player, but NPC ships will not respond to aggression, so pretty much its full-on anywhere not near a gate or station, but some ships are tough enough that can tank those guns so those areas are not safe either.

0.0 space. There is no law but what you make. Death comes swiftly here with big pointy teeth. This is the region where the big ships and big corps roam. Anyone may attack anyone else at anytime.

Lastly when you attack enough players your personal sec status drops. It goes down some when you attack another player, it goes down more if you blow up his ship, and it goes down alot if you murder him (blow up his escape pod). Once it's below -.5 you can be attacked by anyone, anywhere, anytime and the hi-sec space NPC's will be gunning for you as well..

There are other ways to be able to legally attack or kill other players. Stealing give you a 15 minute window to blow up the theif's ship. Murdering another player give that player 30 days to hunt your ass down and kill you.

Essentially no place is 100% safe, though most places are not 100% lethal either. There are ways of mitigating the risk, but even so the risk is always there.

This is what keeps Eve interesting.

Pirates fight whenever they can

[Wee]

Pirates never fight on even terms (they always hide when out gunned)

Not at all true. We get in all kinds of fights that are even, lopsided, traps, whatever. You get a couple fleets slugging it out, and them you get stomped. No problem, you know now you can bait their big stuff out, so you plan ahead and then get your payback (and not necessarily with a larger fleet; more often than not, good planning and little quick thinking is more important than sheer numbers.

Another example would be faction warfare PvP. There's gangs of all sizes flying around. You have 12, they have 21? Well, what sizes are we talking about? Hmmm, we have two more cruisers than them, yeah, might work, if we can take that ship first, then that one, then either of those two. Good tactics and a good fleet commander making good decisions easily doubles the size of your fleet.

I think you were fell victim to one too many can flips and finally got pissed enough about all that veld you were losing that you quit -- without a full picture of what the entire game has to offer. You use the phrase "mind numbingly boring". What is mining if not that? Where's the excitement in watching a mining laser fire off again and again and again...

-B

Re:Pirates fight whenever they can

[darkwing_bmf]

Mining was a mostly relaxing way to waste time. Sure I got upset when some griefer stole ore from me, but I wouldn't say I got "pissed", so much as it made me realize the game rules were made for griefers and I had no part in it since my idea of fun isn't taking away someone else's. It's not like I didn't try fighting back, like I would NPCs in other games, but a basic mining ship is not going to take out a fighter.

It doesn't matter. Every other part of the game I played seemed pointless too. Running missions starts out fun, but gets boring because it's so repetitive. Waiting for people to undock or go through a gate or looking for groups to fight in PvP that you actually have a chance of beating, or alternatively running away, isn't fun. If you're claiming there's tons of action in PvP, well, that didn't seem to be the case when I tried it. And forming huge corps to build big things... well, that seemed kinda pointless too. Who cares if you have a big ship. Sure it looks cool, but ok I've got a big ship, now what? I suppose there is some fun in griefing others by stealing their ore, or looking for miners in low/no sec to ransom, or going around in groups and just ganking whoever you could find, but it seems like that would get boring too.

As far as group PvP, MMOs just suck in general (for people with real life commitments) because of the imbalance (mostly rewarding time played and getting groups of people together with lots of free time over everything else). I'd much rather play a straight FPS where I can get on any time, join mostly balanced teams (by design if not skill) and have pure fun for the 30 minutes or whatever I have to play, from the time I log on to the time I log off.

Re:Pirates fight whenever they can

[Sobrique]

Do you consider the person who beats you in a game of chess, a griefer? I mean, they're taking your pieces away.

How about the guy who charges you a fortune to stay at Mayfair in Monopoloy?

To say EVE is about 'griefing' is ... well perhaps true. You win at others expense. You take 'their' ore, by mining it, you undercut them on the market. But really, the only challenge in a game, is from another player - no NPC can ever be able to exhibit the necessary level of intelligence, deviousness and strategic thinking when opposing you.

Re:Pirates fight whenever they can

[darkwing_bmf]

Do you consider the person who beats you in a game of chess, a griefer? I mean, they're taking your pieces away.

Not at all. In chess both sides agree to the start of the contest. Both sides are basically even. And if you lose and play again, both sides start even again. As a bonus, you can complete an entire game in one sitting. None of these things are true with Eve.

And to be honest, the only thing you really lose in Eve is real life time... but you don't gain real life time by "winning" either. The best cost/benefit ratio of time spent to fun played isn't a zero-sum MMO.

What's the difference between pirate and corp?

[mcvos]

How is what Veto Corp does different from what other corps do? Okay, so they don't claim large tracts of space for themselves (which might be the biggest form of piracy there is in EVE), but any corp will gladly kill you if you look at them the wrong way.

And what's illegal about arms trade in Eve? Is there anything at all that's illegal there? Okay, attacking people in 1.0 space gets you in trouble with the cops, but other than that, anything goes, right?

I guess the two distinguishing features of Veto Corps as far as I can tell are:

1: Mobility.
2: I suppose they're less diplomatic about what they're doing.