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FTC Bans Prerecorded Telemarketing Drivel
coondoggie writes "In the ongoing battle to let us eat dinner in peace without being interrupted by amazingly annoying telemarketer blather, and in this case the even more infuriating recorded telemarketing drivel, the Federal Trade Commission today basically outlawed recorded telemarketing calls. Specifically, the FTC changed its venerable Telemarketing Sales Rule (TSR) to prohibit, as of Sept. 2009, telemarketing calls that deliver prerecorded messages, unless a consumer has agreed to accept such calls from a given caller/seller. Between now and 2009, telemarketers must provide an obvious, easy and quick way for consumers to opt-out of any call, the FTC said. Such an opt-out mechanism needs to be in place by December 1, 2008."
"telemarketing calls that deliver prerecorded messages"
what if they use text to speech software? it's not prerecorded.
am i looking for money lol
Quit leaving that fucking hole in these things !
Nobody ever willingly agrees to that shit, they're tricked into agreeing every single time.
Nobody wants to fucking hear it, quit making laws that don't do anything other than calm people down for 5 minutes, you fucking assholes !
God damnit, this shit is more irritating than the fucking telemarketers !
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
It's called hanging up.
Yeah, I bet the opt-out option will be right at the end of the marketing spiel, long after the target of the advertising has hung up.
Admit it. You post strawman arguments as AC so you get modded Insightful for refuting them, rather than Troll
It's all well and good to know that you're supposed to tell someone to remove you from their call list when you actually have a human on the other end, but the endless calls to my work number (it's on the DNC list, but is too new to have propagated) by machines wishing to inform me of my vehicle's possible "out-of-warranty status" need to end.
Usually when government bans things like this, it exempts itself from the ban. For example, does this at all affect prerecorded political calls?
There's one thing that is conspicuously missing from do not call lists, and that is the ability to opt out of ANY kind of call you receive.
Currently, you're not able to opt out of receiving political or charitable calls. There are companies out there masquerading as charities and calling folks. I'm on their list and have been told several times that I cannot and will not be removed from their lists, because they don't have to.
Once the FTC fixes this, then I'll be impressed.
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
I usually let calls from unknown numbers leave a message, and that doesn't give me much chance to push that 9 button. I'll hear from them over and over.
This only applies to telemarketers calling from within the united states. A lot of the iterative calling I get is from international skypers.
There are some calls that are exempt, like during a state of emergency the fire department will issue an evacuation order via automated phonecall.
The problem here is that it's an Opt-Out.
Would you like to get elected?
Propose an 'opt in' law. Now. Do it. It is a no brainer with the population.
You may only call me if I specifically opt in to do it.
BTW - Don't call me about polls or your struggle to get elected. I don't want to hear it on the phone.
The last time I got one of these at home I "pressed 1 to talk to a representative about yor chance to lock in a low rate on your credit card".
I have 5 credit cards, so it's fair to say they would have said which one if they weren't scammers.
I'm not sure if this makes me fair game ("I was asking for it") but hey.
A black woman came on the line. I asked the for the name and phone number of the company. She said the company was 'Financial Solutions' (yay genericity), but would not give me a phone number or address unless I gave her my name. Fuck that, let me talk to your supervisor.
Another black woman came on and told me the same thing. I said I don't have to give you squat, you're the ones who called me. After a few "no/yes" back and forth, she hung up on me.
I reported what little I had to the Do Not Call Registry website, but I'm sure nothing will come of it.
I get another one every few weeks about how "I HAVE WON AN ALL EXPENSES PAID VACATION". Tried the same thing once, an Indian guy called "Jeremy" (right) gave me the same runaround.
I hope to hell that the FTC comes down *hard* on these people. There's nothing more annoying than getting machine spam.
By the way, does anyone know why when I hang up on these the line is not cut? If I turn on my phone again I keep hearing the sales pitch, and I can't use it until it's finished. Holy shit, I'm sure even that is illegal or something. ... anyway rant over. Back to work.
Yes we've had laws against pre-recorded robotic marketing in Canada for decades. The problem is that neither the government nor the police are willing to enforce the law. When I get robots calling me up I make a complaint to the phone company and the phone company says they can't do anything about it because it is a police issue. When I phone the police up they tell me that they won't do anything about it because it is the phone company's responsibility to stop the illegal practice.
There's an exception for Political Advertising?
The politician who will vote to let you opt out of political telemarketing call will never be elected due to lack of funding.. aaaah paradox.. :)
More and more marketing will be driven to the companies you already do business with, thereby getting around this banning of 'cold calling'. When I verify a new credit card they play marketing pitches, and on some bills I have to detach an advertisement from the mailing envelope. There is simply no way a single person can opt-out of a sales pitch from every company on the planet. The standard must be to opt-in.
In Denmark we have what is called a Robinson list. The list is made by a centralized government entity, and anyone can be added to the list without cost. All telemarketing firms have to download the list every three months and they are obliged by law not to call anyone from the list. Since I joined the list 3-4 years ago, I have only had one telemarketing call which apologized dearly when they saw their mistake. However, this might not scale well from a nation of 5 million people to the 300 million of the US ;-)
What he say?
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
Quit leaving that fucking hole in these things !
Why is this limited to just telemarketers? Debt collectors, campaigners, and non-profits need included.
I kept getting hammered by an automated call only leaving a number to call back.. A Google search turned up the number belonged to a collection agency in Chicago. They were hammering stale cases and my new number from a move just happend to be one of the numbers they had. If you don't speak english and thus unable to follow the instructions to call, there is no way to stop these calls as there is never anyone on the line to talk to.
I called them and told them to put me on their DNC list. They informed me that they were exempt as they were not telemarketers. WTF??? I expect this new thing to be full of loopholes also.
The truth shall set you free!
Hang. Up. The. Phone.
In any case, I doubt this law is going to make a lot of difference. The great bulk of these telemarketing centres are located outside of America's borders in places like Eastern Canada (where I'm from) or as far away as India.
At some centres, we were told to obey the "DNC" or Do Not Call list. At others, we were instructed by our superiors to give it no credence whatsoever. Legally, we were not allowed to call after 9:00pm at night yet it did happen off the record at every outbound call centre I've ever worked at (five).
If call centres disobey all the previous rules and obligations, what makes you think they're going to adhere to this one? Especially call centres in India where these laws have little jurisdiction?
Lastly, as much as these people irritate you, try your best not to lose your temper with them. Most of them are probably students like I was with terrible managers (the cream of the crap) and strict floor regulations that leave them tethered to their computer, sitting upright, unable to drink coffee or indulge in anything, taking calls for their entire eight hour shift with no breaks, having to sit idley while the death threats poured through the lines, having a one-minute-per-day bathroom break policy and doing it all for a paycheque a meaningless few dollars higher than a McD's salaryman.
...why aren't the pre-recorded messages about 'your vehicle warranty' and messages from 'cardholder services' illegal to begin with? They're basically fraudulent trolling schemes. They don't come out and say it, but they basically imply that they're something they aren't. Like "OH SNAP! YOUR CAR'S WARRANTY IS ABOUT TO EXPIRE, BLAH BLAH BLAH!" a less intelligent person might think this is actually real and important. Cardholder services? Please. "We're your credit card company, press 1 on your touchtone phone to lower your interest rate!" There's also that snail-mail spam claiming to be from your registrar, saying your domain is about to expire, and you have to pay them $29.95.
I get half a dozen of these calls a day. Not being comfortable with phones, I try to use them as little as possible, so it really pisses me off.
And the opt-out is a joke. I have 'been removed from the list' 17 times this week alone, for the exact same fucking 'cardholder services' recording!
Something else that is a joke is Anonymous Call Rejection, where calls are blocked if they have Caller ID blocked (Not Available) or are 'PRIVATE'. Too bad telemarketers know this, and therefor I'm still constantly getting calls from anonymous 800-numbers that are NAMED 'Private' and 'Not Available'. Assholes. I wonder if I can sue them under the DMCA for circumventing my apparent 'spamfucker security'.
Friend: "The NIC is misconfigured..." Me: "No prob, I'll just telnet in and fix it." *Silence*
I'm on the do-not-call list and I still get prerecorded calls from jerks trying to sell me extended warranties or running debt collection scams, looking for people that I've never heard of. The one that called today was using a local international VOIP/PSTN gateway to cover their tracks. They are already violating multiple laws, what's one more? The federal government needs to track down the owners of these companies, take their loot and put them on a chain gang.
Here is a recent example:
Pa.sues son of House member
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I hear that. I turned on a new land line to get DSL less than two weeks ago. I do not even *know* the number. The next day I started getting telespam, mostly recordings. I get a couple every day. The worst part is that all but one of them had no idea who they were calling. They were clearly dialing random numbers or sequential numbers.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
OK, everybody hates them. Nobody likes them. Yet they keep saying "we provide a valuable service that people like, and it is not annoying".
Here is the solution. We don't need to outlaw them. We need the law only two require two things:
1. Telemarketers MUST display a proper number for caller ID
2. Telemarketers may NOT block incoming calls
Then we all install auto-dialer programs on our PC's. We record a long, babbling message stating: "Thank you for your recent call. This message is to inform you that we do not wish to receive any automated calls from you, or any of your business partners, or anybody else, ever again. You may consider this our opt-out message. For your convenience, this message will automatically re-dial you every 30 seconds until you opt out of OUR auto dial promotion. You may signify your intention to opt out of our special, valuable auto-dial list by not calling us again for 6 months. Once you have opted out of our program by not calling us for 6 months, your number will be automatically removed from our calling list. Thank you, and have a nice day."
In other words, we would start clogging THEIR phones, and THEY would get pissed off. And the only way to get off of our autodial list is to stop calling us. You stop pissing us off, we will stop pissing you off.
Comments? Questions?
-Don!
"See the hill, take the hill"
Now all they need to do is ban SPAM emails...
an obvious, easy and quick way for consumers to opt-out of any call
You mean like, say, hanging up? There's really not much point unless you can opt-out before the call. Maybe they should create some kind of list of people that companies do not call - like the one they have now, but actually have it work this time.
Bullshit. I have a perfect credit record and I regularly get calls from debt collection agencies looking for people that I've never heard of. I've had the same phone number for more than 10 years, so it isn't like I have a recently recycled telephone number.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Phone Captcha.
Maybe we deserve this world ?
"Obvious, easy and quick way for consumers to opt-out of any call" is to hang up ;).
Telephone communications are considered private, right? That is, unlike email, a phone conversation can reasonably be expected to be between only me and the party on the other end.
How can one then presume that a private activity such telephone communication should be treated as a broadcast medium? Political free speech is an exemption? Am I to let every politician come into my bedroom for a little pillow talk because of "free speech"?
The phone is a direct line into the heart of my private home. I don't want anyone in my home who I didn't invite.
You might say calling me is no different from coming up and knocking on my door. OK then, come up and knock on my door. Too expensive you say? Calling is more efficient you say? Well I believe the term was "free speech", not "cheap speech".
Oh, and when you do come knocking, don't forget to read the sign that says "No Solicitors". You know, the sign that sets the rules on my private property where I have certain rights also.
Tell you what, here's a good way to do it. Since I can't put a sign on my phone, why not make a rule that says if you want to call me you have to have come to my door and get me to sign a piece of paper that says I agree to take your calls. If that's too much trouble, then I probably didn't want to hear from you anyway.
Equine Mammals Are Considerably Smaller
You are absolutely wrong about somebody deserving to be harassed by debt collectors. Nobody EVER deserves to be harassed under any circumstances. That is why there are large awards in civil court cases for collection agencies with too much "zeal".
This gentleman clearly indicated he was not the party they were looking for. Any calls that occur after this are, by definition, harassment. Now this harassment is not necessarily covered under the aforementioned FDCPA, but it does not have to be. This is no different than any other person or company repeatedly calling a random person after being asked to stop.
As you can see from the FDCPA, even IF the debt collection agency is calling the right person there are still rules governing their ability to call them after being asked to stop. You might want to look at:
Furthermore, at any time a person may send a letter to the collection agency asking that all telephone communications cease. Afterwards, the collection agency may only send letters to the person updating them on any actions being taken towards the debt.
At least in relation to the Do Not Call list. The amount of telemarketing calls I got went WAAAAAY down when I got on it. Also there have been a number of big fines handed down for it. Some of the large companies like AT&T figured this didn't really apply to them, and that the list was a convenient list of working numbers. Ya well the FTC showed them that indeed it DID apply to the tune of a few million dollars and they straightened up.
You never get 100% compliance, of course, but it is pretty good here. When you get a call in violation of the DNC list, you can go on the FTC's site and report it. They don't act on an individual complaint, but they compile them and if a company gets a number of them, the FTC goes after them. Keeps it down to a pretty low level. I would assume they'll enforce the new one just as well.
Part of it helps in that it isn't a police matter. It's not a criminal issue, it is a civil.regulatory issue. So the police aren't involved. That's good, as the police have other things to do. The FTC handles things directly, and they are a regulatory agency. Basically they can impose fines, and if you fail to pay them, go to a federal court and have assets frozen/seized and other such things.
I have had the same thing happen to me many times and to friends and family as well. Here is the 411 for you:
1) They ARE exempt from all telemarketing laws. Everyone likes to bring that up on the phone, but they are actually right.
2) So what the fuck now? They are still not exempt from basic laws governing harassment. You could deal with your phone company or talk to a supervisor of the debt collection agency and threaten a lawsuit if they keep calling you, or you could just go to....
3) Deal with them under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. They MUST inform of you their mailing address and the appropriate department. Send them a typed letter explaining that you are not the person they keep asking for, you have no knowledge of this person any debts this person has. Demand that all communications to that number cease immediately or you will seek remedies under the FDCPA.
Believe it or not, this works every time under the FDCPA. The reason why is that 99.9% of the people complain on the phone where the debt collection agency is not liable. Hardly anyone ever writes a letter.
Write the letter, it will stop. If it does not.. you have a $5,000 dollar insta-claim in a small claims court of your choice.
Okay, I'm not in the US, so this law won't affect me or anything (I'd still get those pre-recorded marketing calls). But why isn't this going to be in effect in September 2009?
All those companies have to do is stop doing it.
It's not like they have to set up a different system.
I mean, it will take more than a year before this is in effect. Everyone will have forgotten about this, and nothing will be done about it.
80 CC D8 AF AE D3 AB 54 B7 2E CE 67 C7
"an obvious, easy and quick way for consumers to opt-out of any call,"
my phone has such features built in. it's called hanging up.
fear is unprecedented evile's primary weapon. that, along with deception & coercion, helps most of us remain (unwittingly?) dependent on its' greed/fear/ego based hired goons' agenda. Most of yOUR dwindling resources are being squandered on the 'war', & continuation of the billionerrors stock markup FraUD/pyramid scheme. nobody ever mentions the real long term costs of those debacles in both life & the notion of prosperity, not to mention the abuse of the consciences of those of us who still have one. see you on the other side of it. the lights are coming up all over now. conspiracy theorists are being vindicated. some might choose a tin umbrella to go with their hats. the fairytail is winding down now. let your conscience be yOUR guide. you can be more helpful than you might have imagined. there are still some choices. if they do not suit you, consider the likely results of continuing to follow the corepirate nazi hypenosys story LIEn, whereas anything of relevance is replaced almost instantly with pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking propaganda or 'celebrity' trivia 'foam'. meanwhile; don't forget to get a little more oxygen on yOUR brain, & look up in the sky from time to time, starting early in the day. there's lots going on up there.
http://news.google.com/?ncl=1216734813&hl=en&topic=n
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/31/opinion/31mon1.html?em&ex=1199336400&en=c4b5414371631707&ei=5087%0A
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/29/world/29amnesty.html?hp
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/02/nasa.global.warming.ap/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/06/05/severe.weather.ap/index.html
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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/01/opinion/01dowd.html?em&ex=1212638400&en=744b7cebc86723e5&ei=5087%0A
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/05/senate.iraq/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/17/washington/17contractor.html?hp
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/world/middleeast/03kurdistan.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080708/cheney_climate.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080805/pl_politico/12308;_ylt=A0wNcxTPdJhILAYAVQms0NUE
is it time to get real yet? A LOT of energy is being squandered in attempts to keep US in the dark. in the end (give or take a few 1000 years), the creators will prevail (world without end, etc...), as it has always been. the process of gaining yOUR release from the current hostage situation may not be what you might think it is. butt of course, most of US don't know, or care what a precarious/fatal situation we're in. for example; the insidious attempts by the felonious corepirate nazi execrable to block the suns' light, interfering with a requirement (sunlight) for us to stay healthy/alive. it's likely not good for yOUR health/memories 'else they'd be bragging about it? we're intending for the whoreabully deceptive (they'll do ANYTHING for a bit more monIE/power) felons to give up/fail even further, in attempting to control the 'weather', as well as a # of other things/events.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=weather+manipulation&btnG=Search
http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=video+cloud+spraying
dictator style micro management has never worked (for very long). it's an illness. tie that with life0cidal aggression & softwar gangster style bullying, & what do we have? a greed/fear/ego based recipe for disaster. meanwhile, you can help to stop the bleeding (loss of life & limb);
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/28/vermont.banning.bush.ap/index.html
the bleeding must be stopped before any healing can begin. jailing a couple of corepirate nazi hired goons would send a clear message to the rest of the world from US. any truthful look at the 'scorecard' would reveal that we are a society in decline/deep doo-doo, despite all of the scriptdead pr ?firm? generated drum beating & flag waving propaganda that we are constantly bombarded with. is it time to get real
To cover phone calls from the mother in law
Task Mangler
Here in Australia, we already have a DO NOT CALL register which *basically* prevents telemarketers from calling you once you've signed up. I say *basically* because there are exemptions. - Any company you do business with is exempt - even for cold calling. So I have my power company trying to get me to switch my gas, and my gas company trying to get me to switch my power. My home phone company hassling me about my mobile and Internet connections, my ISP trying to move me onto their VOIP connections, and my mobile (cell) provider wanting me to change plans. - Any charitable or not-for-profit organisation. Which pretty much means open slather for tea-time hassles for donations on everything from kidney disease to abandoned kittens. - Any government organisation Which, again, means cold-called surveys, opinion polls, election promo calls etc. So much for DO NOT CALL! Worse, those who are exempt now use the DO NOT CALL Register as a call list. (After all, 75% of the competition has been removed) Unfortunately, its like email... how do you effectively manage the signal-to-noise ratio? I agree with your sentiments entirely.
If you don't speak english and thus unable to follow the instructions to call,
With all due respect, if you ("you" in general, not the parent poster) can't speak English then what the fuck are you doing living in an English speaking country? I live in New Zealand and we get these stories all the time how there are special translation services being offered and suggested for those who are "English impaired". WTF? How are these people even allowed to immigrate here?
If I go live in China, I'm sure as hell they'd expect me to speak Chinese. Stupid socialist governments.
Well maybe its time you invested in a recycled telephone number.....
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Wouldn't it be even nicer if the rules applied to those endless calls from political candidates an parties this time of year? But, of course, politicians never apply the rules to themselves!
---
<a href="http://www.zazzle.com/none_of_the_above_bumpersticker-128058981912421235?gl=klausner" target="_blank">Vote for "None of the Above." The most qualified candidate!</a>
Fair enough.
If this is true, you would be the first person I've ever met who this happens to. I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard people boast about how they're "smarter than the collection agencies" after getting off the phone with a collector.
For all we know YOU think you're slick with an attempt to throw creditors off of your trail with that response.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
First I pressed "1" for a live operator. Now to fuck with them and remain consistent, I made up a cheat sheet in advance. On it I wrote a fake credit card number, an expiration date, a fake "card not present" number, a fake SSN, fake balance, etc. They require you to have at least $3000 in debt and at least $2500 in available credit on at least one card to cover their fees.
One thing they ask for is the customer service number for the card so they can call your bank, which they do while you are on hold. So, I used this page of bank ID numbers when making my fake credit card number, and I also googled my chosen bank's customer service number (I picked Wachovia). Also I rigged the number to validate by the Luhn algorithm in case their systems check for that. This way we have a very plausible but totally fake credit card number which will hopefully pass any initial consistency checking they may do.
So I put this cheat sheet by the phone and waited for the call. Within a few hours, they called.
I answer their questions. First they ask about my debt. I tell them $9000 across two cards. I mention my "Wachovia Mastercard". They acknowledge knowingly and ask me to "verify" the card number "starting with the 5" thus suggesting they already know the card number. All Mastercards start with 5. I give them the fake number. They ask me to "verify" the expiration date. I give them the fake date. They ask for the customer service number on the back of the card. I give them Wahovia's number. They put me on hold for five minutes to call up Wachovia and negotiate me a lower rate.
"Wachovia says it's an invalid number. Can you re-read your card number?" I re-read the same number. They put me on hold again for several minutes. This repeats again. I reassure them that card is valid, that I just used it an hour or so ago, etc. They try again. They get a supervisor. He tries. It keeps coming back invalid. I waste forty five minutes of at least two people's time. Finally, as they apologize for not being able to help me, I calmly explain my ruse. What followed was a string of obscenities that even made my dog gag, followed by them abruptly hanging up.
And they haven't called me since.
Unknown host pong.
Just research 'Judy Owens' (sp?) In the Stillwater, Ok area.
She obviously had my phone number prior to me getting it EIGHT YEARS AGO! and I am still getting calls from debt collectors for her to this day...yes, today as a matter of fact.
The callers do not accept my affirmation that I am NOT this Judy character despite me being a male with a registered phone number under my own name.
FSCK THE TELEMARKETERS, FSCK THE BILL COLLECTORS, Fsck them one and all...and Fsck you and your elitist attitude.
It's not all 'black and white' in the real world, deal with it!
With your attitude, I hope the same thing happens to you for you to deal with.
At the risk of mod's (I currently have 10 mod points, but chose to reply instead of mod'ing) I will say this:
I DO TAKE CARE OF MY RESPONSIBILITIES,AND ALWAYS HAVE!
P.S. Again, Fsck you and the white mule you rode in on!
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
Mandate that the telcos charge an additional few cents per call, which go to the number you are dialling. This will drastically raise the costs of the marketers, make the victims feel better about their answerphone full of crud, and even out between normal people calling each other.
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
I turned on a new land line to get DSL less than two weeks ago. I do not even *know* the number. The next day I started getting telespam, mostly recordings. I get a couple every day. The worst part is that all but one of them had no idea who they were calling.
If you only wanted the line for DSL why did you bother connecting a regular phone to it?
You do realize, the telephone company sells your info to every telemarketer in the world, right? I opened a business a few years ago, and before I even had my own phone number, every telemarketer around was calling me, and had my business name already.
SimonTek
... would be upset about yet another harmless activity becoming taboo, subject to government control, or outright illegal.
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
Joebert, are you a debt-collector? It's ok, everyone's got to make a living... *cough*
Not sure this will help me, though. One bill collector with an obviously wrong number robo-calls my home number. Part of their canned speech is, "If this is not you, hang up now...." Yeah, but when the answering machine catches it (which it does for all alls to my landline), it can't actually hang up, can it? So, we kept on getting calls because I wasn't always quick enough to catch the call even I did hear the answering machine.
Hopefully there will be another way to opt out besides that stupidity.
Brian "Psychochild" Green
MMO developer's blog
If debt collectors are calling you it's because you're a deadbeat who doesn't pay their bills & you deserve to get harrassed.
If they called for me, you may have a point. The calls came and didn't ask for anybody by name. The calls were not for me. They were for the prior owner of the phone number. The calls didn't say who they were, who the call was for, and didn't say how to make them stop.
Until I called, I had no idea it wasn't a phishing call. It was only after I chewed them out for cold calling an unlisted number did I find out who the deadbeat was they were trying to track down. As collatoral damage, I did not deserve these calls. The calls should be outlawed.
The truth shall set you free!
If this is true, you would be the first person I've ever met who this happens to. I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard people boast about how they're "smarter than the collection agencies" after getting off the phone with a collector.
Well, I'm the second person then. I am getting regular calls every 2 weeks or something from a cable company that I have never ever even done business with. This has been going for about 2 years now.
It started off with phone calls every week about how they measured my internet connection, and later progressed into harassement about unpaid bills.
I have told them every time that I don't do business with them, that I never HAD a cable connection with them and that I would like to be removed from the system.
Every time the caller said they would do so, but I always get called again later.
Last week I got really angry and demanded to speak to a manager type, they didn't comply but promised not to call anymore this time for real, I swear it stuff. I haven't been called yet, so things look promising...
Anyway, this stuff really does happen!
Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity
Any calls that occur after this are, by definition, harassment.
What about the ton of calls hammering my line while I am a nightshift worker prior to finaly returning their call on the dayshift? It's almost 2:30AM here and I just had lunch. An automated call not stating who they are and who the call is for is just plain wrong. If you call me, you better be on the line... Otherwise, I may return the favor with automated calls back requesting a C & D.
The truth shall set you free!
It's amazing how versatile this document is.
Your law advocates a
( ) technical (x) legislative ( ) market-based ( ) vigilante
approach to fighting telemarketing spam. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have other flaws which used to vary from state to state before a bad federal law was passed.)
( ) Spammers can easily use it to harvest email addresses
( ) Mailing lists and other legitimate email uses would be affected
( ) No one will be able to find the guy or collect the money
( ) It is defenseless against brute force attacks
( ) It will stop spam for two weeks and then we'll be stuck with it
( ) Users of email will not put up with it
( ) Microsoft will not put up with it
( ) The police will not put up with it
(x) Requires too much cooperation from spammers
( ) Requires immediate total cooperation from everybody at once
( ) Many email users cannot afford to lose business or alienate potential employers
( ) Spammers don't care about invalid addresses in their lists
( ) Anyone could anonymously destroy anyone else's career or business
Specifically, your plan fails to account for
( ) Laws expressly prohibiting it
( ) Lack of centrally controlling authority for email
( ) Open relays in foreign countries
( ) Ease of searching tiny alphanumeric address space of all email addresses
(x) Asshats
( ) Jurisdictional problems
( ) Unpopularity of weird new taxes
( ) Public reluctance to accept weird new forms of money
( ) Huge existing software investment in SMTP
( ) Susceptibility of protocols other than SMTP to attack
( ) Willingness of users to install OS patches received by email
( ) Armies of worm riddled broadband-connected Windows boxes
( ) Eternal arms race involved in all filtering approaches
( ) Extreme profitability of spam
( ) Joe jobs and/or identity theft
( ) Technically illiterate politicians
( ) Extreme stupidity on the part of people who do business with spammers
(x) Dishonesty on the part of spammers themselves
( ) Bandwidth costs that are unaffected by client filtering
( ) Outlook
and the following philosophical objections may also apply:
( ) Ideas similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet none have ever been shown practical
(x) Any scheme based on opt-out is unacceptable
( ) SMTP headers should not be the subject of legislation
( ) Blacklists suck
( ) Whitelists suck
( ) We should be able to talk about Viagra without being censored
( ) Countermeasures should not involve wire fraud or credit card fraud
( ) Countermeasures should not involve sabotage of public networks
( ) Countermeasures must work if phased in gradually
( ) Sending email should be free
( ) Why should we have to trust you and your servers?
( ) Incompatiblity with open source or open source licenses
( ) Feel-good measures do nothing to solve the problem
( ) Temporary/one-time email addresses are cumbersome
( ) I don't want the government reading my email
(x) Killing them that way is not slow and painful enough
Furthermore, this is what I think about you:
(x) Sorry dude, but I don't think it would work.
( ) This is a stupid idea, and you're a stupid person for suggesting it.
( ) Nice try, assh0le! I'm going to find out where you live and burn your house down!
Why doesn't the gene pool have a life guard?
UK folk:
Stop telemarketer phone calls by registering with the telephone preference service:
http://www.tpsonline.org.uk/tps/
Also, stop your junk mail by registering with the Mail Preference service:
http://www.mpsonline.org.uk/mpsr/
Environmentalism is the new Victorianism. Everyone ties on a green corset and pretends we're virtuous.
Third person, right here. Over six years now of receiving phone calls from various credit card companies for an individual who, as far as we can tell, has never lived at our address. Seems someone gives out the wrong phone number by accident on purpose.
Believe it or not, this works every time under the FDCPA. The reason why is that 99.9% of the people complain on the phone where the debt collection agency is not liable. Hardly anyone ever writes a letter.
Not everyone believes that it should be a requirement to write anyone a letter who calls to ask them to stop. With some phone numbers, it's less hastle and easer to simply get another number and drop the number that is on the bad boys list. One call fixes it instead of a letter writing campaign.
This phone abuse is one of the reasons phones & phone numbers are becomming disposable. They get clogged and die like an old email account.
The pitty is the numbers get recycled quickly to some poor unsuspecting new customer who then has to deal with the trash associated with the old phone number.
The truth shall set you free!
It basically comes down to this. There is telemarketing and just plain communications.
I can walk up to your house and ring the door bell and attempt to strike up a conversation with you. Nothing illegal about that. However, when I continue doing it to you after you have asked me to stop, it becomes harassment and is actionable in a court of law. Harassment is not a constitutionally protected behavior.
It's just common sense. The problem telemarketers have is that nearly everyone considers their communications harassment from the start.
I am not talking about belief, or any of my personal opinions here. I am just stating the facts as they are now regarding the laws. What I have said is accurate.
As for changing the laws to allow opt-outs to occur via telephone as well as mail, that is another matter. Too often people complain about "what should be" instead of using the system to their advantage as it is.
I can walk up to your house and ring the door bell and attempt to strike up a conversation with you. Nothing illegal about that. However, when I continue doing it to you after you have asked me to stop, it becomes harassment and is actionable in a court of law. Harassment is not a constitutionally protected behavior.
If you sent an automated bot to repeatedly ring my bell and simply drop a request for a call back, and it repeated until I caved and called, I would be a little ticked. Especialy if the bell rang at 2:30 AM. Remember, I work nights. The bot that rang the bell simply isn't listening when you tell it to stop.
The whole point is there is NOBODY to tell to stop on the line when they call.
The truth shall set you free!
I am not talking about telemarketing. I was replying to the gentleman about calls from a debt collection agency. He wondered why they are not covered under the same laws as telemarketers.
There are laws regarding both telemarketing and debt collection. The FDCPA only covers debt collection has nothing to do with anything that you are talking about.
This is my entire problem with debt collections, there is basically no regulation and when you demand proof of a debt, if they drop the matter they are not required as far as I know to send you proof! What will often happened, is that company will transfer the "debt" over to another company (usually owned by the same people and usually to the guy in the cubicle next to the one that called you). So legally, now we have a different company with this "debt" to collect, they will hold it and then try to collect again from you, hoping you have forgotten about the first call months or even years later.
I was changing jobs last year, so ended up picking up cobra for 6 months to cover the upcoming birth of my son. Carriers changed multiple times during that time (my old company sucked some royal donkey balls) lots of junk in the mail blahblah. Took five months, two appeals letters but everything is sorted (I hate medical insurance, all this because you get different information on requirements and what you owe, depending on what time of day you call, if you are standing on one leg and need to fart!). Now, if I am silly enough to listen to the dribble from the debt collectors (yes some bills got past due, due to the confusion) I demand they send written proof that I still owe them money, my wife and I have found that some will try to "collect a debt" even after you've paid, because if they can get "free" money from you, then they will. It is sad, sad, borderline criminal little industry.
Tes
Being able to opt out of telemarketer calls means that an estimated 300 Million US citizens are going to call a particular phone number. I'll sell the slots for commercials that will be played while those 300 Million are waiting to be put through. That's finally going to make me rich.
Uhm this might come as a shock to you but China is just about as far along the socialist meter as it is possible, they're communists and all that you know...
I am already starting to receive annoying dinnertime recorded calls, talking about the elections in November. It will only get worse from here. Why doesn't the FTC ban all recorded calls?
Who's going to be surprised when every "agreement" (you know, those things that let you know you've "agreed" to binding arbitration through an arbitrator of the company's choice and that says they'll only share your non-public personal data as "permitted by law"--the ones that can change "from time to time" as they see fit) includes a clause in which as a condition of being allowed to do business with the benevolent company that we "agree" to accept such calls from them, their subsidiaries, their affiliates, and anyone else to whom they sell our telephone numbers?
One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
"telemarketers must provide an obvious, easy and quick way for consumers to opt-out of any call" I call it "hanging up". Works great for me!
Why is this thus? What is the reason for this thusness?
Make it four. My my mother used to get debt collectors calling her all the time. They were looking for someone who has never lived at the house. Only 2 families have lived in the house since it was built in the 50's...my grandparents and then my parents. The phone number has been with the house the entire time, so I'd say it's very likely that the phone number has NEVER been recycled.
Your example failed to demonstrate your point. How exactly did the phone company sell your number when you hadn't even setup a business phone number yet? How would the phone company know you opened a business and then associate it with your home number and sell it? No, what happened is that when you filed for your DBA, you provided your home phone number on the application, and the state sells lists of registered businesses.
I know this, because I've had the same thing happen to me for 2 businesses that I've setup. One of the businesses was a shareware company, where I didn't need a phone for anything, and thus never provided my home phone number or address (in relation to the business) to ANYONE with the exception of when I got my DBA. Thus there is only one conclusion to be drawn about where it came from.
Or even getting phone service at all?
Does your phone company not offer dry dsl?
:x
During primary season I was absolutely deluged by Hillary and Obama recorded messages, on my voice mail, while I'm cooking dinner, 11:30 at night, and I'm not even a registered Democrat! I fully expect to simply shut off my phone as we approach November. Here's a deal for all our beloved candidates: Don't call me, I'll call you.
Jealously hoarding mod points since 2007.
In my case, I ended up the the former telephone number of someone with a shady business selling crap exercise equipment. The number was on his merchant account as the contact number, and as far as I know it was never changed. I haven't gotten a call in a couple of years about this, but I was quite happy to tell people who called about being charged for that crap what his number had apparently changed to.
But at least I got no automated calls... except when the credit card company somehow decided that was his fax number and started sending me his statements daily... at 0730. I had to hook up my laptop to receive one of them to find out who tell to freaking stop it already.
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard people boast about how they're "smarter than the collection agencies" after getting off the phone with a collector.
I would assume that being "smarter than the collection agencies" includes convincing them to start calling a different (random) phone number instead. And ... apparently that works, too.
This stops a lot of the crap. I also have a blacklist, though. Blacklisted numbers get:
The menu choices go to various other silly recordings, and then back to the menu. FYI, the "Special Price Analysis and Marketing" recording is found in the asterisk-sounds package as spam.gsm.
Calls that hit the blacklist menu get recorded. One political spammer spent over a minute trying to navigate the menu...
Oh, no! You have walked into the slavering fangs of a lurking grue!
As an aside point, it is considered that if you have a pre-existing business relationship with someone (ie credit card or auto loan), THAT'S your opt-in, and they can call you until you officially tell them to stop.
Of course, that's IF you owe them money...
Add number 5.
And it takes multiple times for them to understand that it isn't the right number.
I get automated phone calls from my car dealership being Motorwerks BMW, again that is MOTORWERKS BMW in Bloomington, MN. Yeah, I have an established prior relationship with them, but it's really tacky of them to do that. Especially with how much they charge for certain parts. $75 for a license plate holder?
When my phone rings, I check the caller ID. If the call is not immediately identifiable as coming from someone with whom I actually may want to converse, I choose to let the phone ring until the caller gives up.
Yes, I'm on the various Do Not Call registries. But their first infraction with respect to a given phone is free to the telemarketer, as I read the laws. And I don't want to sit through a first infraction with every telemarketer.
Caller-ID filtering doesn't always suffice, though. It's a drag when I pick up the phone to make a call, and receive a (nuisance) call that hasn't had the courtesy to RING yet!
I would suggest reading up on the Fair Credit Reporting Act with regards to collections attempts.
Well maybe its time you invested in a recycled telephone number
Right, and the solution to crime is to put the lawabiding safely away behind bars.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
... I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard people boast about how they're "smarter than the collection agencies" after getting off the phone with a collector. ...
That's because we ARE smarter than the collection agencies. I recently had the rare privilege of telling a collector, "Do you realize you are talking to the second wife of the first husband of the ex-wife of the guy you're trying to find? Do you REALLY think I know where he is, or intend to pay his bills?"
That was actually worth answering the call.
you have a $5,000 dollar insta-claim
The code says "actual damages" plus "additional damages... but not exceeding $1,000".
You're not in the mafia are you! Here's 2 ways you can enforce that contract:
1) bribe judiciary (very expensive)
2) get a shotgun in court
I'm sure there are plenty of other ways ... oh you meant using the legal system ... my bad.
And me makes four. The automated message leaves a number to call and asks for a person that does not and has never lived here. My number is not even recycled. I got Cox soon after they started offering phone service and mine was part of a brand new prefix that had never been assigned.
Until I read this article, I used to get all pissed at the agency because I had long thought that it was ALREADY illegal to call anyone with a prerecorded message unless you already had a pre-existing business relationship.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
I'm sorry but why can't people just let their answering machine pick up these calls?
Is it dinner time? Are all the loved ones at home? If yes to both turn down the answering machine volume and cut the ringer of the phone off.
After dinner check the answering machine and quickly delete the unwanted called. There's never more than one or two.
Any other time, when the phone rings, just check the caller ID and if it isn't a number you recognize let them talk to the machine. Actually I think this is the main reason I've been taken off most telemarketing lists. I never answer the phone and I never give them money.
Really folks we don't need a whole government agency to handle something like this.
Debt Collectors are the worse. My credit is perfect and my bills are paid. Yet i get a call every couple of days delivering an important message for Justin (my name isn't Justin, I don't know who Justin is) that is not a solicitation. When I call the 1-800 number it gives me to straiten the matter out, I can't get past their computer without entering an account number. WTF!!!! I don't have an account with you assholes, I just want you to stop calling me with recorded messages.
But the Fair Debt Collection Act only covers the deadbeats that actually owe the money. It doesn't protect the person whose number the deadbeat gave his creditors. If you say "No, that person doesn't live here" they have to assume you are that person and you are lying and continue to call. If it turns out they were wrong (and they are) then there is nothing the law can do about it, because you are not the person that the FDCPA protects. Your best bet is to lie and say "yep, that's me. Now stop calling". Then they can't call back. Of course, I couldn't do that because I am honest to a fault. And I don't encourage others to be dishonest. But that is unfortunately, the best way out when some lying deadbeat bastard gets you into this situation.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
All of my phone numbers are on the do not call list, and I still get fucking telemarketing calls. Sue em, you say? Call the state Attorney Generals office, you say? Well, you need identifying information, and it's impossible to get that when they hang up when you ask for the information, and they fake the caller ID number. Robo-calls won't stop because the FTC said so.
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
I'm pretty sure that regulations require companies to identify themselves in all communications (it's certainly true for email and web under legislation in last 2 years) with you.
That is a UK company that spams you and doesn't leave the company name and contact details, or who have a website and don't have that information on it are breaking the law.
Review of requirements - http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/ruDetail?type=REGUPDATE&itemId=1078632802
The SI - http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2006/20063428.htm
Would be stupid if this doesn't also apply to audio telecommunications ...!
"telemarketers must provide an obvious, easy and quick way for consumers to opt-out of any call, the FTC said."
Whenever i get left voicemail by telemarketers (always prerecorded messages that presumably don't realize they're talking to a real person) the first five or ten seconds get cut off, probably because the recording starts talking as soon as it thinks the phone has been picked up, and the voicemail system was giving instructions during that time rather than recording. So does this mean that they can just put the "obvious easy and quick way" right at the beginning? Even if they have to switch to live operators they can just instruct them to start talking as soon as the phone stops ringing, regardless of whether a person or machine answers, and blame the voicemail system for chopping off the opt-out part.
Of course that's presuming that the fine print has already corrected the current broken system. Being told "press 5 now in order to have your name removed from our list" when listening to a recording of a recording isn't much help.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Contacting someone you do business with isn't illegal.
That depends very much on what business one is talking about. Trafficking in controlled substances, black market weapons sales, racketeering, theft, extortion, and blackmail are all businesses where "contacting someone you do business with" is typically quite illegal.
Just hang up the damned phone! What are you, an idiot? If you don't want to be interrupted by a phone conversation during dinner, don't answer the phone. Turn off the ringer, let the answering machine get it. Delete the message as soon as you can tell it's not someone you want to talk to. Jeez, people, it's simple! Stop pretending you're a victim.
So clearly this is one of those areas where legislation is not going to help.
So how about creating a telephone that only accepts calls from people in your address book (stored on the phone itself)? In addition it might take messages from anyone else and store their number (from caller ID) with the message, so that you can easily add it to the addressbook if you want.
Also you should be able to set it to not accept calls without caller ID at all, period.
Seems to me that if the problem is as bad as some people here make it sound (where I live, it generally isn't so bad), there should be money to be made from such a thing, if it does not already exist...
Every expression is true, for a given value of 'true'
An air horn.
I don't have an account with you assholes, I just want you to stop calling me with recorded messages.
Just in case it helps:
AT&T these days will let you block up to 10 numbers to a land line you can specify through your web account. Other services often will allow the same. It's kept a few of the more annoying telemarketers away from our house. I'm particularly tired of the political messages but I seem to have no legal recourse for those.
You also can file a complaint with the FCC in many cases though it isn't always clear if any action will be taken. Satisfying though...
They ARE exempt from the "Do not call" list - however they are not exempt from the "Fair Debt Collection Practices Act". If you would have only told them to stop in accordance with that Act, then they would have to stop calling you legally.
The REAL problem, as stated above, is these loopholes and technicalities. Why should the average person have to know and use a "key phrase" to stop these calls? There SHOULD be a super do-not-call list. You sign up for it, and NO business can call you. That would be a good use of the Congress. Pass that. That's what we want.
I have Caller ID now and I just don't pickup now if I see "Out of Area" or a number of "1-999-999-999" - which I'm sure Card Services is doing.
My bank calls every once in a while to offer new crap I don't need. It's a person on the other end, but an auto dialer. Unfortunately, they are not well connected, and if the person picks up, but there's no telemarketer to talk to you, it hangs up. Well, I guess the auto dialer went a bit nuts, or everyone quit or something 'cause for like 3 straight weeks I'd get multiple calls a day (started at about 3, ended up being about 8) where it was a hang up on the other end. Finally hit up the reverse lookup, found out who it was and went it to the bank. Told a teller, told the customer service rep, emailed the people on the website and nothing. It finally took a really nasty email to one of their corporate drones threatening to move all my accounts and report them before the calls stopped. Man, in those few weeks, what I wouldn't have given for once nice recorded message that I could hang up on and be done with....
...no two people are not on fire.
This is my entire problem with debt collections, there is basically no regulation and when you demand proof of a debt, if they drop the matter they are not required as far as I know to send you proof! What will often happened, is that company will transfer the "debt" over to another company (usually owned by the same people and usually to the guy in the cubicle next to the one that called you). So legally, now we have a different company with this "debt" to collect, they will hold it and then try to collect again from you, hoping you have forgotten about the first call months or even years later.
Well, just because you don't know something doesn't mean you're right.
Read the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act.
There, now you know.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Why should I have to waste time out of my day to track down all the appropriate information for DebtOnYourAss Inc, type up a letter, and mail it to them, when they shouldn't be calling me in the first place.
If I tell them that Johnny Dontwannapay doesn't exist at my phone number, then they'd better stop calling.
I kept getting hammered by an automated call only leaving a number to call back.. A Google search turned up the number belonged to a collection agency in Chicago. They were hammering stale cases and my new number from a move just happend to be one of the numbers they had. If you don't speak english and thus unable to follow the instructions to call, there is no way to stop these calls as there is never anyone on the line to talk to.
It can be even worse than that. I was getting persistent calls from some debt collection agency about some other person with the same last name as me. I have a policy of not answering the phone unless I know who it is so all the calls went to my answering machine. Furthermore, I would delete the message off of the machine after listening to only a few seconds of it.
Well, my wife got sick of that after a few months and decided to actually listen to the full message. It was an automated one but not just a recording. About half-way through, the automated voice says:
"If you are the person in question, please stay on the line. Otherwise, hang up"
It then waits a few seconds and, thinking it now has confirmation that I am the scofflaw they are looking for since I'm still on the line, it starts up on the threats!
My wife finally called the agency to get us off their list. The first level of collector she talked to insisted that they have confirmation that so-and-so lives with us. Yes, from the freaking answering machine!
Long story short, she finally talked to a manager who promised to take us off their list. He lied and they continued calling. She called again and talked to a different manager who also promised to take us off. We haven't had a call since.
Hello. This is Barak Obama and I have an important ...
Look, you freaking r-tard, if you call me ONE MORE TIME, I'm voting for McCain!! You got that, SFB?
Hello. This is Barak Obama and I have an imp...
That's IT!!! I warned you!!! Tard! Tard! AAAA! AAAA!
Hello. This is John McCain and i have an important messag..
Alright! Screw *all* you guys! I'm voting Communist! You hear me, brain boy?? I'm now a registered Communist!!! Take THAT! AAAA! AAAA!
Hello. This is Angela Davis and I have an important message ...
apply the same ban to political candidates and their handlers.
Caller ID... the ORIGINAL whitelisting algorithm.
Not sure about his case, but Embarq refuses to offer dsl without POTS. Their reason? "It was popular in our trial markets, but we found we could make more money requiring phone service too." Word for word. They make more money charging people for something they don't need and don't want. Big surprise there, huh?
Not true. The Act talks about what they can do to collect a debt. If they are acting to collect a debt, then that law covers them, even if they happen to not be talking to the person that owes them.
Learn to love Alaska
I had the same thing happen to me, only they were speaking Spanish. I still have no clue who they were or what they wanted. If a number would have showed up I could have probably figured it out. I had to get a new number to stop the calls.
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". - stolen from Dan C alt.os.linux.slackware
Right, and the solution to crime is to put the lawabiding safely away behind bars.
Finally someone that agrees with me!
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". - stolen from Dan C alt.os.linux.slackware
We've been trying to contact you about your website! It's due to expire in the Very Near Future, and if you don't renew, it could lead to service outages, legal costs, hair loss, or worse: Failure in Iraq!
Please press 1 to talk to one of our Network Experts. Press 2 to a representative in our Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt division. Press 3 to talk to Phishing Expert, and press 9 to opt out of this call!
Please, hurry!
"If god did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him" --Voltaire
These are the worst for me - especially since most of the ones I've received, have required me to listen to the entire message before even giving a number to 'remove' myself from their list. Worse, when I've called to be asked to remove, they want me to give them my number. Lesson learnt: When telecommunications become easier to use... they become even more easier to abuse. Where is the protection from abuse? and whom do I call?
Same reason as with email spam. Real, potentially important calls get lost in the noise, making the medium a lot less useful.
Bullshit. I have a perfect credit record and I regularly get calls from debt collection agencies looking for people that I've never heard of. I've had the same phone number for more than 10 years, so it isn't like I have a recently recycled telephone number.
We've recently started getting mail (they appear to be bills) and phone calls from debt collectors for someone we've never heard of, and we've lived here for 32 years, had the same phone number for at least 20. This isn't a case of identity theft (that was the first thing I checked), just apparently some low-life used our address and phone number then vanished on their creditors. I'm glad it's not identity theft, but it's beyond annoying to be getting calls from debt collectors that refuse to believe that they're calling the wrong place. Getting them to stop is proving impossible. Since we aren't the actual person listed for the debt, we can't even properly request they stop contacting us. This appears to be a case where we really do need new laws to address the situation, and it doesn't help that debt collectors tend to be abusive when they think they're being lied to. I'm sure they do get lied to a lot, but being abusive isn't the answer (and is in fact illegal), especially when you will hit innocents now and then, which is becoming more likely by the day as identity theft increases.
Furthermore, at any time a person may send a letter to the collection agency asking that all telephone communications cease. Afterwards, the collection agency may only send letters to the person updating them on any actions being taken towards the debt.
There's a hole in this section however, if you aren't the actual party to the debt the collection agency will ignore it as you're not listed on their accounts. If you try to get creative and send it claiming you're the person they're looking for then you've just confirmed (in their minds) that you're really lying and they have the right place. So what do you do if you're in a situation like the parent? I've got the same thing happening (lived here 32 years, same phone number for at least 20, we have no clue who the person they're seeking is) and we can't get them to stop.
I'm pretty sure that they do have to stop calling you if you request it. You can find the relevant info at the Consumerist. Just try a search on "debt collector" or "collection agency". I'm sorry but I don't have time to look it up for you today.
I dream of a better world... one in which chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.
It's not just wrong numbers. I have an unusual surname and get calls asking whether I know how to find people with the same name. Usually I say that I'm from an isolated branch of the family and don't know anybody, but occasionally the caller gets nasty and/or tries calling back several times over the next few weeks.
I'm sure there are legal remedies for that sort of bullshit, but it should be as simple as an FTC complaint.
- klx (AC because I've modded)
Yeap, love those political robo calls? They are still exempt. We are working to remove that restriction. More at: http://www.stoppoliticalcalls.org/index.php
...do the same for viagara and drug advertisements on TV.
I always find it amusing that we are fighting SPAM in email, over the phone, etc. but nothing is being done about the SPAM on television. Most cable companies now have two-way communication for on-demand services, how hard would it be to allow the TV viewer to set add preferences (i.e. coke commercials in place of drug commercials, etc.).
David
Just thought I'd remind you that there are TWO official languages in New Zealand, although I never met anybody who could ONLY speak Maori.
Damn, overedited that -- I meant to say, "Usually they go away politely when I say I'm from an isolated branch ..." - klx
...is some other means of them droning in our ear will be invented to fight the term "prerecorded"...they will find another media...or worse yet...some one from india in a sweat shop will be chain smoking cigs and calling you at dinner.
Joe Investor
How can I be the only person who doesn't see any change in the rules here? The TCPA already provides:
So what, exactly, is the deal?
Prerecorded messages are already illegal in California unless a live operator gets your consent to play the message.
Um, I got calls from Aarons' Rents for over a month asking for somebody I've never heard of when I got a new job-related cellphone. So add me to the list. Luckily for me they were reasonable once I finally talked to someone who could do something and I got my number taken off the account.
For that matter, my parents (who have perfect credit, FWIW) have gotten calls from some debt collection agency asking for personal details. I looked the number up on Google and apparently other people have been getting calls from the same number, same M.O. I don't even think it should be legal, but I suspect debt collection agencies are starting to troll random numbers trying to dig up people who've successfully moved off-the-grid.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
With all due respect, if you ("you" in general, not the parent poster) can't speak English then what the fuck are you doing living in an English speaking country? I live in New Zealand and we get these stories all the time how there are special translation services being offered and suggested for those who are "English impaired". WTF? How are these people even allowed to immigrate here?
Unlike many other nations, the USA does not specify an official language in its constitution or laws. There are parts of the country where Spanish is more popular than English. Of course there are also neighborhoods where Italian, Russian, Hindi, Yiddish, etc is the predominate language.
I understand that English and Maori are the official languages of New Zealand. Would you discriminate against a New Zealander who spoke only Maori?
--- A man with a briefcase can steal more money, than any man with a gun. [Don Henley]
Not really... (emphasis mine)
May a debt collector contact anyone else about your debt?
If you have an attorney, the debt collector must contact the attorney, rather than you. If you do not have an attorney, a collector may contact other people, but only to find out where you live, what your phone number is, and where you work. Collectors usually are prohibited from contacting such third parties more than once. In most cases, the collector may not tell anyone other than you and your attorney that you owe money.
According to that, you could as effectively say "I'm not the person you're trying to find, I don't know where he/she is, and stop calling me."
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
A good way to deal with the "we left you our number" issue, if your phone line is capable of it, is to call the number twice and then bridge the 2 lines. It can be quite funny when they realize they just got a call from themselves - sadly they usually don't realize this is the case. By sadly, I mean it's sad for the whole human race.
After a few weeks of this, they gave up.
Great Intellect...
What happens when the opt out instructions are pre-recorded!?
It took me over 40 calls to get the name of the collection agency calling for someone who's name I'd never heard before. I didn't even know it was a collection agency until then. The f-ing agency bragged on it's website that it did a breadth first search. I assume that means calling all the wrong leads first. On top of that the law you quoted only applies to the people who owe the money, not to wrong numbers. Still, a letter did end the calls. Debt collectors are assholes. They know they call lots of wrong numbers, but refuse to listen, just in case it's the right number. The intended method is harassment. It's not like the person forgot to pay.
You mean Craig Jebsen? He's hassling me too.
And yet. A polite, "You have the wrong number" doesn't always work in my experience.
I get a ton of those "Your vehicle's warranty has expired..." which all of them and it variations have flooded my company's phone system. However I have no idea who is the real caller is since the caller ID's are spoofed and since we are open company we need to answer all calls so they is the problem. I hope that FTC will find these "female donkey orifices" and stop this "male bovine feces".
However there are companies that do legitimate business using prerecorded messages to call you that something is ready. For example Walgreens uses prerecorded message to announce that your prescription is ready to be picked up. I wish that the law doesn't affect these legitimate businesses since you have a pre-existing business with them.
Yeah. Some telemarketers don't obey the laws; that's hardly news. FWIW, "You have the wrong number. Please do not call this number again." might work better than a simple "you have the wrong number", and if you mentioned the FDCPA it might hold more weight.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
In fact, the mere mention of an FDCPA letter will stop a borderline-reputable collector cold. I say "borderline", because they operate with just enough ethics to avoid becoming a target of a prosecutor or a litigant, while they toss any ethics aside by relying on people's ignorance of the FDCPA.
In short, if the debt isn't yours to pay and they continue to call you anyway, tell them that they're in violation over the phone, and they will most likely shut up. If they don't, start writing, because that debt collector needs a reality check.
"We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
I think your missing the point here on several levels:
They can't ignore you. Harassment is not a constitutionally protected behavior. It does not matter if you are the person holding the debt, or if you are not the person holding the debt. Harassment, is still, harassment under the laws. You would have good standing for a civil suit. The bottom line is that most people give up instead of actually proceeding to litigate. That is why they continue to act the way they do. YOU need to convince them you are not most people.
There is nothing creative about it. You don't claim to be anybody else other than who you really are. Lying, or telling the truth is irrelevant. Under the FDPCA, they must discontinue all communications via telephone once they receive the request in writing. The only exceptions are to basically tell you that it is over or they are finally suing you in a court.
You seem to think they can operate outside of the FDCPA with impunity. They can't. If they are calling people that having nothing to with an account, that is your basic harassment. It does NOT matter what they think "in their minds". That justification will not hold up in a court of law. "Your honor, my clients believed the plaintiff was just lying about who he was", is a bullshit defense and the judge will see right through it.
Both under the FDCPA, and outside of it, your best response is a written letter. After that if it continues, you forward the letters and their responses along with your phone records, to the attorney general for their state and to the FTC.
"You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink". Trust me. I have done this more than once, and not just for myself. It works. You can continue to argue why it can't work, shouldn't work, or you can finally take action and make it stop.
Because some people like to talk to people without forcing friends to talk over the answering machine message loud enough to be heard.
Other people (like us) don't get Caller ID for free with phone service. Adding Caller ID would increase the bill by about 15% a month.
A few people don't have answering machines.
Just because you can't see a reason, doesn't mean there isn't one.
Another reason: tragedy of the commons.
+1 here. I regularly got debt collector calls about someone who shares my name and birth month (not date, but who can expect a debt collector to do their job and actually look up the right person). It took a police report and an a identity theft investigation to uncover that it wasn't someone using my details, but some jackass not doing their job properly
TIAEAE!
I was not claiming to be right, I was claiming as far as I knew, there now you know.
And thanks for reminding me to read Fair Debt Collection Practices Act.
>I've got the same thing happening (lived here 32 years, same phone number for at least >20, we have no clue who the person they're seeking is) and we can't get them to stop.
I had the EXACT same situation. I bought a new house, got a new phone. I got a huge number of phone calls for the guy who had the phone number before me. The phone calls dropped off after awhile but I still got 3-4 per month. Then a couple years ago, I started getting a lot of them again (usually at 8AM on Saturday). Explaining that you have had this number for 8+ years did no good. They would continue to call. I read the FTC laws and even quoted them to these guys on the phone but no go. I threatened lawsuits against them and their response was to simply hang up on me. If I asked for a mailing address or the owners name of the collection agency, they would usually refuse to give it to me. Those that did always gave me a PO box (which cannot be served a summons) and refused to give me a physical address or a name of a supervisor or owner.
I ended up solving my problem quite simply. PacBell, my telephone provider was bought out and I got a letter saying I had 30 days to select a new plan or one would be selected for me. Instead I called my cable company and went with their phone service. I transfered my phone number over so I had the same old one but I decided to LIST the number (before I was unlisted). Since I have listed it, the huge number of phone calls from collection agencies had stopped. I did get one for my name for a guy living in a town nearby but that has been it so far.
Was supposed to fix this...
In the Telecommunications Act (1991, 1996), made many of these types of calls illegal via the FCC (class 2 misdemeanor - Title 47):
http://www.fcc.gov/telecom.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_Consumer_Protection_Act_of_1991
By splitting oversight between the FCC and FTC and the "no-call list" from an internal one to a national "Do Not Call Registry" - it all became a mess. The laws are muddled, the enforcement is lax, the solicitors are returning to the tactic, and now there is a Federal database of our names and phone numbers. Brilliant!
Good for the FTC if they can get this to work (I seriously doubt it). Predictive dialing, anyone?
Right, and the solution to crime is to put the lawabiding safely away behind bars.
They do that already. It's called "gated communities".
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
3. Caller ID service on home phone lines must provided at no additional charge.
I order a business line, it was put in and 30 seconds after I had the phone hooked up, I had companies calling to sell me credit card machines, etc. I was given the number, but hadn't gave it out to anyone yet.
SimonTek
Well, that definitely sounds like a recycled business number. I really can't believe the phone company would be THAT efficient at selling new business contact details. I mean, come on. 30 seconds?
What ever happened to the do not call list. I have suddenly been getting a barrage of telemarketing calls. I thought these were illegal with a hefty fine. What happened? Is this like all good government programs: no teeth?
With some phone numbers, it's less hastle and easer to simply get another number and drop the number that is on the bad boys list. One call fixes it instead of a letter writing campaign.
In my case, a collection agency was looking for the previous owner of my home. They found my unpublished number and started calling me, demanding that I let them speak to the previous home owner (who I'd never met in my life). Changing my phone number wouldn't have solved anything. They only stopped when I informed them their calls were not welcome and any further attempt to contact the previous home owner using my phone number would be met with a call back from a lawyer and a harassment lawsuit. I haven't received any calls since.
Have you driven a fnord... lately?
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Hate to bring it to you, but in Shanghai nearly all the signs are in both English and Chinese (even the subway announcer). I had no problem dealing with the government when I was there (restaurants etc. are a different matter).
I will concede that this is the international hot spot of China and it won't be like this everywhere, but if sufficient numbers of people don't speak the local language, maybe the locals can adapt a little?
I have a perfect credit record
Have I got a deal for you! We can give you a great rate on a new loan so you can have a larger house, buy a nicer car, or fix up the den!
Would you like a new Credit Card?
No, I will not work for your startup
The reason that I have a perfect credit record is that I didn't go out and buy all those things :).
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat