Slashdot Mirror
Lenovo Requires NDA For Windows License Refund
tykev writes "A customer wanted to return the license for preinstalled Windows Vista Business that came with his Lenovo laptop. After some lengthy negotiations with representatives of Lenovo's technical support and management, he was offered financial compensation for returning the license in the amount of CZK 1950 (USD 130, EUR 78), pending his acceptance of a non-disclosure agreement that would cover the entire negotiations with the company and its results. He declined and published his experiences on a Czech Linux website. The website editors decided to reward the customer for publishing the article by paying him an author's royalty in the same amount as was the offered compensation for returning the license."
Vista is pants
...which didn't even seem that implausible at the time.
If he's from Czech does he have a mate?
So now we know the minimum we should accept. Time to start negotiating upwards to see what other numbers can be achieved.
That is probably the most effective way to start companies shipping hardware only or Linux pre-installed as the negotiation process will cost money. If 1,000 people went through this process with Lenovo (or Dell, or HP, etc) then we would probably see more progress than 5 years of bitching has managed to achieve.
Kudos to the guy
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
Thanks
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
130 US is only worth 78 EU.
I especially liked this bit
Sleny operátorky na lince Lenovo byly velice milé. Po vyslechnutí mého poadavku m chtly odmítnout, ale poté, co jsem odcitoval píslunou ást licence, si vyádaly pár dní na zjitní aktuálního stavu od vedení firmy. Tím jsem se viditeln dostal o úrove vý, nebo nyní následovalo kolo telefonních rozhovor.
I dont know what it means but I like it. I think.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
The url for the account is buried and in Czech.
a translation would be nice. http://www.abclinuxu.cz/clanky/pr/abclinuxu.cz-vyplatil-nahradu-za-licenci-ms-windows-misto-lenovo-cr?page=1
The last time I checked, the spread between a Vista/Linux Dell was about $200 with similar specs.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
There go Lenovo's chances on my next laptop purchase.
"My opinions are my own, and I've got *lots* of them!"
...Everyone knows you make them sign the agreement *before* making an offer!
The CB App. What's your 20?
well played sir
My Blog - http://www.jasonernst.com/ Academic Website - http://www.uoguelph.ca/~jernst
Where does the desire for the NDA come from and why?
Is it Lenovo? If so, is it some sort of routine ass-covering procedure that doesn't make all that much sense? Or is it something that applies to all "there is a not too well known way to get some money from us, we'll do it; but don't popularize it" situations?
Is it Microsoft? They have been historically tight lipped about their OEM agreements and prices, are they attempting to discourage indirect indicators like this one?
I wonder why on a Czech web portal, that one news article was in English. I did a little looking around trying to see if I could find any other pages in English but that was the only one. It was also the only one that had a /. submit script on it. Even the Czech version of the story did not have the script.
Insert Generic Sig Here:
Before anyone goes blathering on about "ufair" this and "innacurate" that, follow my test.
1. Visit Dell.com on two different browser tabs.
2. Tab #1 starts here.http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs
3. Tab #2 starts here. http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xpsnb_m1330?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19
4. Configure the Vista product with the ultimate version. That is roughly feature equivalent to Ubuntu.
5. Pay attention to the hardware options because the Linux product has fewer and generally more storage/RAM.
6. At the end, you should have a spread of about $349.
So, Vista costs the consumer $349 OEM through the consumer URL.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Why the hell is a NDA agreement required anyway? This is for a refund on a specific part of the total price. The price of Vista. Requiring a NDA for this is stupid unless you're trying to give as little away as possible - but wouldn't/shouldn't that be illegal? :P The cost of Windows on it is not subjective, it's concrete.
If it were me, and they attempted to hit me with a NDA prior to the process, I'd take them to court. Any NDA they have with microsoft is between them and microsoft. I should not be forced to accept it just to receive the LEGALLY ENTITLED REFUND I'm due. If microsoft is engaging in some sort of shady pricing schemes between it's various suppliers, that's THEIR problem, not mine.
This way he can still use Windows!
Meanwhile, Microsoft still got paid for a product that was completely unwanted and unused. This is a great example of the Microsoft Tax in action. Even when their new operating system is a disaster and people refuse to use it, they still get paid, purely on the basis of their market position. This is the kind of reason why Microsoft should be subject to antitrust laws. Normal market forces just don't apply to them.
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
The EULA also doesn't grant you the RIGHT to a refund from an OEM.
The EULA does not specify it is not. Lenovo, as would any reasonable business, saw this as a legal transaction with an unfamiliar party. Asking them to sign an NDA is not unreasonable. The customer could have done a simple web search and found that people have had a higher success rate going straight to MS. As I did, and found it to be a relatively simple process.
Foregoing the purchase of a Lenovo will also require an NDA. Well, in "Communist" China anyway.
What?
I applaud this guy. I don't read Czech so I don't know what he died to separate M$ from their cash but I'm sure he never booted into windows and declined the EULA for starts. He probably also bought directly from Lenovo and not a reseller. My recent laptop purchase was a good deal but it would have been almost a steal if I was discounted the M$ Shitsa tax of $130.
Instead of going through Lenovo, I filed a complaint with my state's AG office. I wasn't lookin' for a refund, rather physical media in case the hard drive were to fail and I could no longer use the "restore partition."
Couple weeks after my complaint is filed, I get an e-mail from Lenovo asking for my model/serial number so they can send me a disk. BUT I bought an IdeaPad which they don't have disks for.
I was like "What the? Party foul." and now they're letting me return the IdeaPad sans restock fee so I can purchase a Thinkpad.
No sig for you!!
Lenovo offers laptops with Suse preinstalled (I wiped it and installed Ubuntu but I digress) that are actually cheaper than similar Windows offerings.
It must be M$.
Fuck the fucking impotent European Commission and the DOJ with no balls.
Oh BS. Go buy a Dell then. Passing up a high-quality, feature-packed laptop over some NDA requirement is just being silly.
going straight to MS
Which, incidentally, he should still be able to do, since he has not given up his license at this time. $260 is a lot better than $130. :D
Layne
Why the hell is a NDA agreement required anyway? This is for a refund on a specific part of the total price. The price of Vista. Requiring a NDA for this is stupid unless you're trying to give as little away as possible - but wouldn't/shouldn't that be illegal? :P The cost of Windows on it is not subjective, it's concrete.
I think you'll find the price of vista varies quite a bit depending on who you are. A large OEM like lenovo is going to pay less than the average joe buying a box off the shelf. If you're, say, a public school system who's put some thought into switching to linux, you'll probably pay even less.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
The website editors decided to reward the customer for publishing the article by paying him an author's royalty in the same amount as was the offered compensation for returning the license."
Lenovo tried to cancel the Czech. Did the editors pay the Czech with a check? I guess I should TRFM and Czech it out.
"He's lost in a 'floyd hole"
We'll have these Sweded by tomorrow, no problem.
The EULA also doesn't grant you the RIGHT to a refund from an OEM.
As much as I want to disagree with you, I'm afraid you're right.
In theory, you have by law the RIGHT for a refund, because in the first place you DON'T accept the terms of the EULA. Therefore, there's no agreement and you have NOT purchased the software in the first place.
But then again, nobody forced you to buy a Lenovo laptop if in the article purchase order it says "with Windows Vista". You bought it, you're screwed.
It's up to the Courts to decide the legality of forcing a software on you whenever you buy certain hardware.
No, but the OEM's agreement with MS does. MS has confirmed multiple times that customers are eligible for a refund of the cost of Windows if they aren't going to use it.
I wouldn't be surprised if the EULA didn't have a unilateral amendment clause just so Lenovo could do this.
So, open source business model actually works.
Good on them.
Do you have a link? This would be interesting - I doubt that people on one of the two biggest Linux portals in Czechia wouldn't know that it's possible to buy Lenovo laptop with Linux.
My guess is even if they did, they won't do it here in Czechia. Asus also doesn't offer its EEE PC 901 with Linux here, for some strange reason.
are also really, extremely hot. My understanding is that any of them could be Playboy centerfolds. Is that true?
Since when did *Lenovo* agree to the EULA? That's an agreement between Microsoft and the end-user, so the buck stops with Microsoft. Sure, Microsoft might have a contractual relationship with the OEM that requires them to accept refunds, but that fact isn't publicly available! Anything Lenovo does, as far as the customer knows, is out of the kindness of their hearts. People should be banging on Microsoft's door to get that refund, the biggest fraud accomplished was them convincing people it was the manufacturer's responsibility.
The MS EULA explicitly states that one can return the software for a refund. The trouble with actually getting the refund is entirely the fault of the OEMs.
To my company, the best Lenovo could manage was a "If you bulk purchase 100 laptops of the same type we can negotiate downgrading them to Vista Home, but we will not refund the license.", after about a dozen e-mails.
Dell, on the other hand, refunds licenses after just two minutes on the phone.
Disclaimer: I've been trying to purchase brand-name laptops without an operating system for more than eight years now. Recently I've signed up as reseller for several big laptop manufacturers, who will remain anonymous. It's still impossible to get even a single one of them to accept the EULA and refund licenses to my customers. Also, the EULA says that my company would have to refund my customer, but none of the manufacturers so far gave me a way to get my money back from them. So if you're wondering why every store tells you that refunds don't exist, this might be it.
If you want to sell brand-name stuff without OS, the only choice you have is to contact another reseller who is a key account with the big guys. These resellers can sometimes get you built-to-order machines. Those, on the other hand, are often more expensive than a similar stock machine WITH Vista Pro, so if you think your customers are saving any money there, think again. All you get is the added inconvenience of waiting for the BTO.
If the manufacturers would at least honor the EULA, I could buy those machines with Windows and return the licenses myself, passing the savings on the customer. Since they don't, I can't even do that.
well, you hit the nail on the head. It is all about Microsoft or Lenovo protecting Microsoft because they have an NDA with Microsoft. Unlike the laptop hardware or other software where the price is listed and itemized, Microsoft does not want you to know what is really getting paid for the Windows right-to-use license.
Did you notice that since Windows Starter Edition a few years ago, Microsoft is willing to go to $5 for Windows when going up against Linux? The pulled Windows XP out of its grave, crippled it and licensed it for $3 or $5 for those tiny laptops. With some 80% of their profits coming from Windows, do you know what $5 for all Windows licenses would do to Microsoft's income? I'm surprised they've not changed their EULA yet to eliminate this whole refund bit.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Selling a PC with Windows pre-installed has been around for a long time now. Vista right now, is certainly the worst OS to come pre-installed on a PC.
Having to refund the OS, is certainly not something any retailer, wants to deal with, and of course, when you don't want Windows of any kind, then Microsoft is the obvious loser in this gig. But, I can certainly see why they tried (Lenovo/Microsoft) to get the customer to sign an NDA, because if people knew of this, oh boy! the flood gates would open.
Ironically, without an OS, you don't know if your hardware is really sound, because you can't do a really good user test.
Selling a PC without an OS would be the way to go to avoid this refund issue.
And with Linux getting easier to deal with, that's becoming quite an attractive alternative...
Imagine, if Apple MAC OS where also to become available for any PC...
Windows would finally get real competition!
As it goes, I'm curious now, that this cat has been let out of the bag, to see see how this situation will further evolve.
Maybe I'm stating the obvious here, but that NDA could well be a FUD (Fear Uncertainty Doubd) item (with the ability to shut someone up (if needed) as a nice throw-in), simply to make the buyer drop his claim.
Free cash, which company can withstand it ?
I'm pretty sure that requiring an ex post facto NDA as part of a refund of an item for which refunds were promised is a violation of the terms originally offered. This certainly constitutes Bait & Switch advertising since you may well have bought the computer with no intention of using Windows on it and intended to get the refund of the Microsoft Tax all along. This form of advertising is illegal in many places and should be pursued with the proper local authorities.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
If the refund value of this Windows license is USD130, then the company should be equally willing (required) to sell that version of Windows to all comers at the same $130. Anything else is fraud.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Well, I can see it now. The market takes a *real* plunge and these guys at Lenovo end up putting on their polyester shirts and hitting the retail circuit (ala Radio Shack).
You've got questions ... we've got blank stares.
You've got a product to return? ... we've got an NDA for you to fill out.
If the retail price is more than the price Lenovo is offering, you may come out ahead.
Our company has always used thinkpads.
At first, the switch from IBM to Lenovo had no discernible impacts. But recently we've started to have problems.
I got a new T61p last week; I'm sending it back because of some frankly bizarre behavior and hardware flaws (e.g. no right speaker channel on the headset jack, unreliable sleep behavior, several others).
We're actually going to look at Macs with Parallels (for when we have to use Windows, which is a portion of the time).
Simple Unexpected Concrete Credible Emotional Stories
Its called a contract.
Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
I don't know what's different here (Canada), but every time I've purchased a computer of any sort (for quite literally years), be it from IBM, Dell, Lenovo, or HP (I don't recall others, but there may have been), it's always come with an install CD/DVD. Every single time. Hell, I don't even think it needed activation when it was reinstalled (at least for a Dell). No product key, no phoning home that I recall...
Man buys a laptop from Leno.
Laptop comes with Windows Viagra.
Man insists he doesn't need Viagra, insists on money back.
Chinese authorities confused as to how a man can perform without it, ask for a copy of his DNA.
The Chinese insist that the man keep quiet:
Bootleg copy of Windows (the screen of death is red).
Laptop also contains birth records of the Chinese gymnastic team.
(OK, I admit, I made this part up, but it makes the story better.)
Man publishes his story on web.
Profit!
Someone said translation is like a woman:
If she is beautiful, she is not faithful.
If she is faithful, she is not beautiful.
I realize you had a principled response, and not including physical media is a downright shame. However, personally I would have used ghost or Acronis and imaged the drive and called it a day. I understand not everyone can do that.
Good-bye
Thurber said, in response to someone who said his stuff was great in French: Yes, my works lose something in the original.
"Lenovo's action is unconscionable"
Well, they are a Chinese company.
Please try to keep up, and thanks.
Just three months ago I bought HP Compaq 6715s laptop which came with Vista Home Basic. I wasn't going to accpet Microsoft licence but I booted directly to Hardy CD. Hard disk had plenty of unpartitioned space so Linux installation was easy. .ISO -image or anything else. There were .WIM files but I didn't know how to burn these. And same time I trashed Vista partition so it didn't boot and install Vista anymore. I was planning to install Vista but without registration. Then burn image to DVD and trash Vista afterwards. But it didn't work.
Same time I was browsing internet to find if I get refund. Verkkokauppa.com didn't know anything about Microsoft terms here http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/Default.aspx so I had to call Microsoft. And they said that their terms do not apply for OEM pre-installed laptops. So finally I tried to phone HP support two days until I got their support guy on the phone.
And he said that they won't pay and licence can not be taken away from that computer. Also I can't sell my Vista Basic licence for somebody who might need it! Licence is only for that laptop I bought. Period.
So - then I might be able to run Vista on KVM virtualization? Then Vista runs on same computer where it was licenced?! HP support told that yes, I can run. But another problem...
How can I install Vista into virtualized environment because there was no installation media?!?! I tried to browse Vista partition but I wasn't able to find
So last change - trying to phone HP support again remembering that it was very difficult to get them answer (call goes to switchboard ALWAYS after 2min queue). But this time I got person on the phone without too much queueing. I asked if I can get Vista DVD from there. And yes, I was able to have it - for free!
But it came too late - I took laptop to my sister with Ubuntu Hardy. Now she is happy with it and she does not need Vista at all.
Hmmm... should I sell Vista even I'm not allowed? How much money I can ask? I have original un-used Vista licence code and DVD.
I could have, but I shouldn't have to.
No sig for you!!
I think the main point is that they are trying to impose additional T&C on you after you purchased and paid for the product. If they didn't give you the chance of a refund, they couldn't impose these additional T&C.
First, they wanted to refuse his [the customer's] request, giving various excuses (hardware-software is non-separable; you should contact Microsoft; you should contact the retailer; the maniuplation fees are as high as the price of the license).
(The Microsoft representative cited the license, saying that only the vendor is responsible for any kind of reimbursement.)
Then he managed to get his request through: the woman from the helpdesk refused to give him the e-mail address of the manager in charge of such matters, however she offered that she would forward the e-mail to him.
The customer threatened to take legal action against them, to file complaints with local customer protection authorities etc. and he received no response for a month. He also listed several foreign cases where the license costs were refunded, including a case with Lenovo Germany.
But then, all of sudden, a reply came with an offer made just for him. He would have to pledge not to activate the Windows license, erase the existing Windows installation, send a copy of the receipt along with the Certificate of Validity and sign the NDA.
Prove it. Neither you nor Microsoft can demonstrate to me that the OEM has a contract that obliges them to refund you (well Microsoft can, but they won't). Failing that, Microsoft has promised you a refund, or if you like to think that they *haven't* then they're forcing you into a contract with no legal consideration, minus that software with advertised features that you've already paid for (that's not consideration, that's extortion).
This whole thing stinks to high heaven, and the buck truly stops at Microsoft, in the initial sense of the word.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/shropshire/7585098.stm
"A man who chose "Lloyds is pants" as his telephone banking password said he found it had been changed by a member of staff to "no it's not"."
""But what really incensed me was when I was told I could not change it back to 'Lloyds is pants' because they said it was not appropriate.
"I asked if it was 'pants' they didn't like, and would 'Lloyds is rubbish' do? But they didn't think so.
"So I tried 'Barclays is better' and that didn't go down too well either.
"The rules seemed to change, and they told me it had to be one word, so I tried 'censorship', but they didn't like that, and then said it had to be no more than six letters long." "
----
So, this is my position/question:
Why the HELL was a low-level functionary employee able to "see" the true password of a customer? The frackin password should have been a reduced or hashed form so that even if an IT person can copy and paste it in a local system, they could not know the contents and be able to type it in at a point of sales station or an ATM, or on any sites that reject copy-paste-in passwords...
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
I'm surprised they've not changed their EULA yet to eliminate this whole refund bit.
Because they can't. The (dodgy) legal ground EULAs stand on relies on the users acceptance of the terms and conditions, if they don't offer a refund for people who don't accept then they've sold a defective product.
OS is.
Fuckwit.
Three weeks ago I bought a ThinkPad R61 from Insight.co.uk.
Before actual purchase, I asked a sales-rep if Insight might do me one favour, namely kindly remove any windows (XP, in this case) from the hardware, at no change in price. And the rep chirped yes they will, much to my surprise--she obviously was in error, as Insight won't even go so far as fit an additional 1G of RAM, which I ordered along with the laptop.
Perhaps I coveted the R61 too much to let it slip from my hands, then and there, and... just let the question become moot, despite lingering suspicions that the rep simply lied^H^H^H^H let me be so easily blinded.
When the thing was delivered by courier, it was obvious that Insight's part in it was to forward the shipment as it came from Lenovo, straight on to me.
Now, was it my mistake that I first made due inquiries about availability of that ThinkPad sans Windows? With a response in the negative, what would my options be to both get the hardware and a refund, once I was made fully aware that neither Lenovo won't ship it w/out windows, nor Insight the middleman will or can do any favours for me?
Yes, yes, it's all about determination and a tinkling feeling of avenging many a fellow geek, if the refunded ~$100 alone doesn't count. And yet, I can't help thinking that all in all my single option would be to not buy it. That is, no Windows, but no ThinkPad either.
Things would be profoundly different if I came in possession of a Windows-loaded laptop not of my own will--say, as a gift.
>> There go Lenovo's chances on my next laptop purchase.
I see this sort of comment all the time; each time I wonder if there is any basis in reality.
In my experience (in business at least), people with actual responsibilities don't use political/advocacy factors as the primary consideration when making purchases.
As for non-business users, I think it would be safe to assume that most people who make this kind of statement are no threat whatsoever to ever buy anything; unless it is mmorpg-related.
Of course (for the sake of politeness), we will assume you are the exception to this law of nature.
Humor from a Genetically Molested Mind
LEGALLY ENTITLED REFUND
Legally entitled based on what? The EULA? I thought those weren't enforceable.
878659 - yep its prime.
And bribed the government. This is so incredibly wrong in, oh, let me count some of the ways...
No. They offered him what he asked for, with conditions. He did not ask for those conditions.
Sounds like they were rather distasteful to him. As they should be. The loss of ones freedom of speech should NEVER be a condition to anything.
NDAs are counterproductive. Learn how to discern people that you can trust and you shouldn't have to rely on them.
I for one, will NEVER sign one, regardless of context. I view them as unconstitutional. Simple as that.
Bank staff sign all kinds of secrecy legislation that applies to the industry and this can land them in jail for many years if they tried doing what you suggest.
Debian FTW
HP in Finland is like that. My brother's laptop actually had an EULA of it's own, saying that the software and hardware are an inseparable bundle, which is kind of true since the installation files were on a preinstalled cd image. Worse yet, the consumer protection agency backs that interpretation up. I sent them an email quoting several windows licences, asking them about it, and three weeks later I got an email saying they had received my email but can't respond individually to each email. A few weeks after that, their position remains unchanged (shocking, I know).
Post your license number here and we'll see if we can sell it for you!
PS: OEMs cannot be resold according the EULA; although there are companies dealing specifically in OEM stickers, cd's and manuals; so there might be some middle line to walk there; how thin this line is, I don't know. IANAL.
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
At my distributor I pay roughly:
- XP PRO OEM Multi-Language license cost: 92.82 euro (EX BTW) 112.3 (IN BTW)
- XP PRO OEM Uni-Language license cost: 90.62 euro (EX BTW) 109.65 (IN BTW)
Make the difference yourself; if they only pay back 78 Euro;
why am I paying roughly 30 Euro more for the same OEM license?
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
refering to my post before; Which amount do you call lower?
These are distribution prices; not end-user prices.
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
... but the buyer's. There are plenty of laptops available with Linux or FreeDOS installed instead of Windows. Buying a laptop with Windows pre-installed and then trying to get a refund is a stupid waste of time - just buy one without Windows.
Note: Czechoslovakia does not exist anymore.
The saddest poem
How is this Score:4 Informative? It's in the wrong article, irrelevant, and wouldn't give any info not already stated even if it were in the appropriate article. I think slashdot moderators are pants. :)
(Translated from dutch)
So I gave up...
Now I wonder if I can do the same thing with a Mac Mini. I only want the hardware, not OSX as I plan to use it as a front end for Myth TV. I wonder how much I can get back for returning the unopened copy of OSx 10.5?
Sweden is a country. You can't use it as a verb.
Skiffy is Spiffy, but Ort is tort.
Actually, you can verb pretty much anything you want.
I won't be too pedantic about it, otherwise I'd be at risk of Zashiing up this thread even further. =]
By my count something like 300 mod points have been wasted on this junk. ;)
(gunning for "Insightful" here)
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
In my not-professional-legal opinion, "with windows vista" doesn't suffice, because such a sticker does not spell out the terms of the license.
"With Vista" implies that you're buying X (the hardware) and Y (the software). But the first thing in the EULA is "licensed, not sold".
A sticker that said "With permission to use Vista in certain preapproved ways" might carry the day, but our sales would plummet.
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
IANAL, but Lenovo is selling you a computer, and as a courtesy, sell you a Windows License at an undisclosed, but included, price. They are "tied" together, not "bundled", making them two separate. Their justification is that selling a computer without an Operating System would makes things more complicated for the consumer and encourage piracy since computers MUST have an operating system to work. As a separate product, it must be 'returnable' for the price of the product. The 'price' of the product is a big issue due to several legal precedents including the LePage standard (LePage's Inc. v. 3M 324 F.3d 141) that disallows products to be sold below competitive price (over simplified, sure). This means either refund the retail price, or admit you are breaking the law in your price scheme. Not only do you have the PeaceHealth standard (Cascade Health Solutions v. Peacehealth, 515 F.3d 973) to consider on product bundling, but I think Microsoft set a few precedents themselves, not the least of which was their own antitrust case, despite the fact that it has been very poorly enforced.
Basically, you can't sell a bad product without taking responsibility for it, even if you didn't make it. Your only argument is "but everybody uses Windows" as some kind of obligation on part of the customer and binding expectation on part of Lenovo.
If Lenovo doesn't want to provide refunds, they shouldn't sell Windows Licenses, and even if they don't know the law, the EULA THIS TIME clearly explains it.
The irony is that the people that think all this is a big BS scam on the part of Microsoft are the same people that don't want Windows in the first place which is why they are seeking refunds.
Really simple solution? OFFER MULTIPLE OS OPTIONS! So they made a deal with the devil only to find out the consumer was smarter than they were. Boo hoo, whine to someone that cares.
And to Anonymous Coward, I still can't figure out if you are trolling, or just... uninformed.
Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
I spend part of my time as a desktop admin, parent's statements are accurate.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
No they're not
You must not have seen Be Kind, Rewind.
I was completing the response to the line "We'll have these Sweded by tomorrow, no problem."
Skiffy is Spiffy, but Ort is tort.
Dig is better
Jason, dude,
there's nothing like "Czechoslovakian", really. There's Czechs, Slovaks and few others in Czech Rep. True, there's been Czechoslovakia for the major part of last century (1917-1993, if I recollect). But just as there's no "Great Britons" in Great Britain, but Welsh, English and Scots. There's no Czechoslovakinas. Not a big deal, but you can take my word on this one.