Pitfalls of Automated Bill Payment

theodp writes "A few months ago, the NY Times' Ron Lieber extolled the virtues of allowing utilities, phone, and credit card companies to pull whatever you owe from your bank account. Big mistake. Lieber's readers fired back, telling him he was out of his mind for suggesting that they give billers unfettered access to their credit cards and bank accounts. Now Lieber goes through five of the glitches that can occur with any of the various methods of setting up automatic payments: 'You can give each biller permission to pull the full amount from your bank account. You can use the online bill system at your bank to push payments out automatically each month. Or you can charge every bill to your credit card and give only that card company permission to pull money from your bank account when the credit card bill is due. Each of these methods has its potential shortcomings ...'" What kind of payment automation do you use, and why?

Comments

D'uh

[The Ancients]

There's plenty of credit card details that can be bought for $20 on the internet. Problem solved!

Re:D'uh

[Z00L00K]

As long as I don't have to pay with checks I'm good. I don't have checks and don't expect to need any either.

Anyway - it depends on who I'm paying, but the insurance is paid by permission monthly. A fixed sum that always goes the same way so it's no big problem.

Other bills are paid through the bank service internet page into their account. Signed with a challenge/response token to make sure that the recipient and amount are right.

Re:D'uh

[darkmeridian]

Credit cards can be insecure but if someone uses my credit card, I'm protected by the company. I never use debit cards or direct withdrawal to pay my bills online. If there is a dispute, I can always challenge it and I don't risk having my bank account overdrawn. The only exception is my student loan: the servicer provides an interest rate discount for direct deposit; the servicer is well-known and reputable so that's the only exception.

Re:D'uh

[Anonymous Coward]

There's plenty of credit card details that can be bought for $20 on the internet. Problem solved!

And you pay the $20 by giving the site you credit card details right?

Re:D'uh

[cecil_turtle]

Exactly, I have a dedicated credit card just for bill payments that gets fully paid off each month. It allows the automatic payments to be set up, but acts as a buffer to my bank account in case of an error, plus I get to defer payment for 25 days or whatever. Finally, the credit card I use for this is a cash-back card, so I effectively reduce all of my bills by 1%. Billers that don't support credit card payments I use online banking to send a check. I've been a victim of one of those 38-in-100,000 billing errors, I had a DSL company once withdraw $1,300 instead of $56 because of a "glitch" in their system. If that happened against my bank account it would have been a much larger problem.

Re:D'uh

[hedwards]

Credit cards are pretty much always more secure than checks are.

Thanks to check 21, there isn't even an assurance that the original check exists by the time the transaction posts to the account.

Personally, I don't use any automation between my card and my bank. And I hate allowing things to automatically charge. Outfits like Vongo and AOL have a tendency to abuse the capability and refuse to admit that they're not entitled to money after cancellation.

Re:D'uh

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldnt have noticed - i hate looking at my statements

It is simple

[Anonymous Coward]

I pay all of my bills in Linden Dollars.

Well..

[Entropy98]

As long as it not AOL or Paypal what is there to worry about?
--
Find My IP Address

Re:Well..

[KPU]

Comcast.

Re:Well..

[tikal2k]

As long as it not AOL or Paypal what is there to worry about? -- Find My IP Address

Or Citibank.

I use Paytrust

[ptbarnett]

http://www.paytrust.com/

Most of my bills are transmitted electronically. The rest are mailed to Paytrust's P.O. box, and they post the scanned PDF for my review.

I set the payment rules via their website: pay full amount, pay full amount up to [limit], pay specified amount. Or I can just wait for the notification in my email and pay it myself with a few bill clicks.

Re:I use Paytrust

[Apple Acolyte]

I haven't heard of paytrust before, but is it really safe to have a third party looking at your bills?

Re:I use Paytrust

[ptbarnett]

I haven't heard of paytrust before, but is it really safe to have a third party looking at your bills?

Depends on what you are worried about. There's nothing in any of the bills I send to Paytrust that would bother me if it became public knowledge. If someone wants to alert Al Gore because I used too much electricity last month, I'd love the opportunity to laugh and slam my door in his face.

I pay my credit card with a direct transfer (my checking account and credit card are at same bank), so they don't get that statement. The cool thing about Paytrust is that you can send ANY bill to them, including ones that don't offer automatic payment. And if you want to change the account that is used to pay the bill, you only have to make a change in one place.

Re:I use Paytrust

[Skal Tura]

http://www.paytrust.com/

Most of my bills are transmitted electronically. The rest are mailed to Paytrust's P.O. box, and they post the scanned PDF for my review.

I set the payment rules via their website: pay full amount, pay full amount up to [limit], pay specified amount. Or I can just wait for the notification in my email and pay it myself with a few bill clicks.

That's rather an interesting concept for an service. Just as i were thinking reading the summary that why do not banks have "pay upto X amount" kind of limitations, you come up with a comment about paytrust :D

Unfortunately, i think there's no such service in Finland

Re:I use Paytrust

[subreality]

I've been a PayTrust customer for a long time. I was originally a PayMyBills customer, but the service has been the same even after they were bought out. It works exactly as advertised, and I'm completely satisfied with what they do.

I use them because I am simply terrible at keeping track of paperwork. I know some people can do it. My mother can't understand why I can't do something that is so easy for her, but I fail miserably when I try. Things stack up, I lose track of which ones I paid with a credit card when they call me to collect the delinquent accounts, and if I want to look through my history, my files were so terrible I'd never find what I needed.

Then there was PayTrust. I don't think of it as automatic bill payment. Instead, it's an automated filing service, and a check writing service. They receive bills, and file them into various categories for me, keep track of which ones I haven't yet paid, and after I review them and tell them how much to pay, they print and mail a check on my behalf. The few bucks a month they charge much more than covers the late fees I used to incur by losing track of things. Even if it weren't for that, their fee would be worth it for hassle reduction, and for having easy to access, categorized records.

They have the ability to automatically pay things if you want. I use it for a few small, fixed costs, like my phone bill for the DSL line. My credit cards are set to automatically make a minimum payment before it's due if I haven't reviewed and manually set a payment amount.

I have had zero problems with their service ever. The fearmongering is completely misplaced, IMO. If I don't tell them to pay an account, they won't. I have full faith in that, because they have always handled it correctly in the past, and have no incentive to try to slime something by. I'm even a privacy nut, but really, there's nothing on my credit card that I care if people know. In a worst case if someone someone stole all their records and published them, they'd find out that I've *gasp* paid for porn a couple times. Bring it... The risk-reward profile is fine.

OTOH, I would never authorize a phone company to autobill my credit card (pull billing). Phone companies are detestable, soulless, unethical piles of crap, and have not earned the trust to have the responsibility of billing me the same amount every month and not silently try to tack on more services. I completely agree with TFA's criticism of this method.

Re:I use Paytrust

[nospam007]

>If someone wants to alert Al Gore because I used too much electricity last month, I'd love the opportunity to laugh and slam my door in his face.

It's not Al Gore, it's the DEA and they also have a copy of that invoice of the 8 600-Watt plant lights you bought 3 months ago.

Re:I use Paytrust

[Jay L]

This sounds interesting, but after reading the FAQ, I'm confused.

I can pay most of my bills via either push (from the bank), if they're a consistent amount, or pull (from the vendor) if they're not. The trouble is that some bills change every month, but the vendor doesn't have an EFT option.

It sounds like Paytrust is designed to handle that - by receiving my bills for me - but that I still have to affirmatively pay each bill. Is the idea just that a few clicks is easier than opening letters? Which, admittedly, it is. But I'd really like to say "Pay the water bill automatically as long as it doesn't exceed $X". Can Paytrust, or anyone else, do that?

Re:I use Paytrust

[PopeRatzo]

I set the payment rules via their website: pay full amount, pay full amount up to [limit], pay specified amount. Or I can just wait for the notification in my email and pay it myself with a few bill clicks.

Geez, do you guys really find it that difficult to pay your own bills? Are you too busy fighting evil or something? Didn't you learn anything at all in that home economics class you took in order to meet girls? Not that it worked, of course.

Re:I use Paytrust

[PopeRatzo]

If someone wants to alert Al Gore because I used too much electricity last month

Ah, he reveals everything we need to know about him. He's too busy listening to Rush Limbaugh to pay his own bills.

Re:I use Paytrust

[Anonymous Coward]

Kinda, alfred uses paytrust to sort my stuff out.

Re:I use Paytrust

[Curunir_wolf]

Ha! My automated bill payment system is *much* better, and I've been using it for many years. It validates the bills when they come in, and only pays when they are due. It maintains my account balance and lets me know at any time what my balance is doing and what's coming due. It follows up with creditors with any billing errors, too, and ensures they are corrected. It even balances my checkbook every month.

The only downside is that it's pretty expensive. Yea, all my bills get paid, but most of my leftover income goes to maintaining the service!

It's called "my wife".

Re:I use Paytrust

[Qzukk]

There's nothing in any of the bills I send to Paytrust that would bother me if it became public knowledge.

Except for the utility bill itself, which in quite a few situations is accepted as "proof" that you live at the given address.

Re:I use Paytrust

[AmberBlackCat]

I guess that's one of the strong points of setting the bank account to do automatic monthly payments for you, since it will only make the monthly payment you specify, regardless of whether that is the full payment. The main reason I haven't set up that service in my bank account is I read their agreement and it seems that by setting up the automatic bill payment, the user gives the bank permission to run a credit check, presumably to offer them a credit card or something.

Re:I use Paytrust

[Moofie]

Difficult? No. Tedious? Yes.

Re:I use Paytrust

[Anonymous Coward]

>>If someone wants to alert Al Gore because I used too much electricity last month, I'd love the opportunity to laugh and slam my door in his face.

How dare you mock Glorious Leader??

You will be first against the wall when revolution come.

Re:I use Paytrust

[Sponge Bath]

8 600-Watt plant lights you bought

There is nothing illegal about growing tomatoes indoors.
Some people just really like fresh tomatoes.

Re:I use Paytrust

[datapharmer]

yes. most major banks do. This is similar to how I have my account setup. I say pay the bill if it is up to x otherwise send me an email and an account alert next time I log in. Seems to work fine as long as I either check my email or look at my account.

Re:I use Paytrust

[ptbarnett]

But I'd really like to say "Pay the water bill automatically as long as it doesn't exceed $X". Can Paytrust, or anyone else, do that?

Yes, Paytrust can do that. If the bill exceeds your specified limit, you get email notifying you that the bill was not paid and requires action.

Even for paper bills: they scan the bill and determine the amount -- I think it's done with OCR rather than a human. Long ago, I had them pick up a the wrong payment amount from a bill, but other than that it's been accurate.

Re:I use Paytrust

[ptbarnett]

Geez, do you guys really find it that difficult to pay your own bills? Are you too busy fighting evil or something?

Not that it's any of your business, but I started using a bill-payment service when I was traveling every week for a consulting job. I could handle them on-line at any time, and it was one less thing to do when I was home on the weekends. And, I didn't have to worry about just barely missing a bill due date.

Re:I use Paytrust

[ptbarnett]

Ah, he reveals everything we need to know about him. He's too busy listening to Rush Limbaugh to pay his own bills.

No, all I did was reveal that you are a partisan hack that seized the opportunity to turn a lame joke into a political attack.

Oh, and I mostly listen to the comedy channel(s) when I listen to my radio.

Re:I use Paytrust

[ptbarnett]

Except for the utility bill itself, which in quite a few situations is accepted as "proof" that you live at the given address.

That's a good point -- In my city, the utility bill is a "token" to accept trash at the transfer station. They either stamp or punch it each time, so you can only make a drop-off twice per billing cycle.

I can always print the PDF scan of the bill -- I do so when submitting expense reports for reimbursement. But although I doubt the city transfer station would accept that, it has never been an issue for me, in the past 8-9 years.

Re:I use Paytrust

[BrokenHalo]

Ha!

I used to know a guy (back in the early 14th century, when the planet was newly cooled, and there was no internet etc...) who just let the bills pile up in his hallway. Each month, he would pay just one bill from that pile.

If anybody objected or sent the bailiffs round, he would simply offer the opportunity to refuse to participate in his lottery, in which case they wouldn't get paid. :-)

OK, he was a hippie (as was I) but the notion was interesting nonetheless...

Re:I use Paytrust

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but this is slashdot. Most users haven't yet discovered how to interact with a member of the opposite sex.

Re:I use Paytrust

[gsperling]

Ah, but the fringe benefits of your payment service are far better than any possibility of any offering on the internet. It's called "marital relations" and unlike prostitution, it's completely legal and it's expected!

Re:I use Paytrust

[laejoh]

Expected? Like the Spanish Inquisition?

That would explain a lot...

Re:I use Paytrust

[Anonymous Coward]

Pardon my ignorance, but what in the hell is a "transfer station" and why would you drop your trash there? I'm trying to imagine what kind of situation would require one to move any kind of trash any further than "out by the sidewalk" but I'm not getting anything.

Re:I use Paytrust

[wizzat]

A facility where wastes are transferred from smaller vehicles (cars, trailers, trucks) into larger vehicles for transport to a disposal site.

Re:I use Paytrust

[chunkyq]

Lot's a fresh tomatoes. For medicinal use.

Re:I use Paytrust

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm trying to imagine what kind of situation would require one to move any kind of trash any further than "out by the sidewalk" but I'm not getting anything.
Living in a place where some types of trash are not picked up curbside. Maybe you should go see a bit more of the world?

Re:I use Paytrust

[The Cisco Kid]

The issue isnt 'receiving your bills (notification that you owe)', the issue is who controls the initiation and amount of money being transferred from you to who you owe. Eg, who has access to *take* money directly from you, in an amount that they have determined.

And to be honest, in my case, I dont let anyone just suck money out of my bank account. I use my banks billpay service, where *I* control the if, when, and how much.

There is *one* exception - my mortgage. It is a fixed amount, and I have an entirely seperate checking account that I use only to pay that. I have an allotment direct deposited into it from my paycheck, and the exact amount goes out to pay the mortgage. My reasons include it being a *fixed* amount, and it's one of those things that you really can't afford to not pay on time.

Re:I use Paytrust

[The Cisco Kid]

FYI - credit card bills dont show what was purchased - only who you paid.

Re:I use Paytrust

[ptbarnett]

The issue isnt 'receiving your bills (notification that you owe)', the issue is who controls the initiation and amount of money being transferred from you to who you owe. Eg, who has access to *take* money directly from you, in an amount that they have determined.

Agreed, and that why I like Paytrust. I've authorized only Paytrust to take money from my checking account, which they use to pay my bills. And I control the disposition of bills upon receipt, through their website.

Re:I use Paytrust

[ptbarnett]

Pardon my ignorance, but what in the hell is a "transfer station" and why would you drop your trash there?

In this context, it's where the curbside pickup trucks transfer it to larger trucks for transport to the landfill or recycle center.

I have carts provided by the city that can be picked up and emptied by mechanical means, so the driver never leaves the cab. But, if you have a bulky item or a large amount that won't fit in the trash or recycle cart, you can deliver it yourself to the transfer station. The utility bill is used as a token to limit the number of "free" trips.

Re:I use Paytrust

[Banquo]

I've used Paytrust for about 3 years, and have had no payment issues whatsoever..

I login on the 10th of every month, (by then all my bills are in) look over all the bills, click process payment on all the ones I want to pay the default values on, and DONE. (I still like the control of "releasing" the bill as opposed to autopayment)

Every bill I have is paid in about 2 mintues with no paper and no fuss.

I WAS using myciti.com to aggregate all my accounts and pay them but myciti folded, then I moved to national city accounts, they folded, I moved to netbank they folded, and almost all the other account aggregation/payment systems have dissapeared (Liabilities possibly? I Dunno)

The only negatives to paytrust are that some of the accounts that don't have automated bill payments already setup, can take up to a month to get set up, and I really wish they had that aggregation service... I enjoyed looking at all my bank/stock/CC/bills in one screen, but for all the time and trouble it saves,...it's sooooo worth it.

Re:I use Paytrust

[nospam007]

>FYI - credit card bills dont show what was purchased - only who you paid.

What the hell did you buy from Growing Lamps Inc. and Sensiseeds Inc. , the invoice doesn't say.

Re:I use Paytrust

[Lost Engineer]

Depending on where you live that might not be true. Since residential properties are neither factories nor farms, there may be restrictions on what lights you can use if there is a fire hazard.

Re:I use Paytrust

[The Cisco Kid]

That obviously requires that you trust them (which apparently you do, and I guess thats good. I don't know them, and have no opinion on them so far).

I use my banks billpay, which more or less does the same thing (minus the bill 'receiving' part). The slight advantage there is I only have to trust my bank, as opposed to my bank *and* another party. Oh that and that it doesnt cost me anything.

Re:I use Paytrust

[The Cisco Kid]

Well then I guess if you want to hide what you buy, you don't buy it from a store that only sells one thing. Obviously a charge to 'WalMart, Inc' isn't going to give much clue as to what you bought, nor would one from Home Harvest Gardening Supply

http://homeharvest.com/lightingmain.htm

or for that matter Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-4-Foot-Wide-Green-Thumb-System/dp/B0001XLSGQ/ref=sr_1_7/105-3071349-1766060?ie=UTF8&s=garden&qid=1220215437&sr=1-7

Re:I use Paytrust

[Firethorn]

Personally, I love strawberries.

They grow great hydroponically, and they just go bad too quickly if I buy them from the grocery - it just takes too long coming from California.

Re:I use Paytrust

[Banquo]

If I'm not mistaken you can pay all your paytrust bills through the credit card of your choice. If you're using Amex, they have a pretty hard core "The customer is always right give them their money back and prosecute the hell out of anyone in their path" approach, so that would insure you against any of the issues that could theoretically arise.

You could then pay your credit card bill from your bank, or manually once a month and you'd still be ahead of the game time/hassle wise.

As I said in another post, I've used them for over 3 years with zero negative payment issues. A great rule of thumb is to have a seperate CC for internet only purchases, IMHO it's those "I bought this 1 gig video card from Bob's online discount warehouse" purchases that end up causing issues, not your auto payment service.

Re:I use Paytrust

[bXTr]

How am I not paying my own bills by using a service like Paytrust? Is the money coming out of someone else's bank account or something?

Re:I use Paytrust

[nolife]

I've found my banks use of Checkfree is more reliable for paying bills than my wife and I put together. We were always late on payments and it was not due to a lack of funds. We've automated every bill we possibly could and all is good now. I don't think we've "balanced" our check book in 10 years either. We just check the balance every so often and transfer money in and out of the checking account as required. Our checking makes the same rate as are basic savings account so it doesnt really matter.

Re:I use Paytrust

[operagost]

I thought Lot was the dude whose wife got salinated, not a fresh tomato(es).

Re:I use Paytrust

[jb.cancer]

Ha! My automated bill payment system is *much* better, and I've been using it for many years. It validates the bills when they come in, and only pays when they are due. It maintains my account balance and lets me know at any time what my balance is doing and what's coming due. It follows up with creditors with any billing errors, too, and ensures they are corrected. It even balances my checkbook every month.

The only downside is that it's pretty expensive. Yea, all my bills get paid, but most of my leftover income goes to maintaining the service!

It's called "my wife".

I hear upgrades can leave you broke..

Re:I use Paytrust

[Anonymous Coward]

This makes me wonder if you can grow wild strawberries inside. The cultivated ones were breed from them. I hear they are amazing, but insanely perishable (mush less than 12 hours after picking). Most of our produce has been bred for shelf life, instead of flavor and nutrition. Anyway, I told my wife I wouldn't grow tomatoes inside, because it really sucks having the DEA kick down your door, even by mistake. I don't care how much she loves tomatoes.

Of course, payment tracking is a problem these days. Innocent people might not realize that what they are buying makes them look like a criminal. Once you are suspected, the "punishments" start. I pay for everything over $10 electronically and all my bills auto debit and I've never had a problem, but that doesn't mean you'll see the same results.

Re:I use Paytrust

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI - credit card bills dont show what was purchased - only who you paid.

You can get more detailed bills, but the issue isn't what the bill shows, but what the CC company knows and will sell or disclose. If you think all stores only send the CC company a dollar amount you're wrong.

Re:I use Paytrust

[slashdotwannabe]

mmmmmmmmmmmm.... tomatoes =)

I pay online

[fishyfool]

But none of them are automatic withdrawals. Every month I take the time to go to the website of the biller in question, and tell them exactly what I want to pay. That way if there's a mistake, It's my mistake. I also have a specific checking account I use for online payments. I only transfer enough to pay what I said I'd pay and not a dime more. Just as a layer of insulation between my checking account and my bill account.

Re:I pay online

[Daengbo]

I use the "get my ass to the post office method. I'd pay online, but Korea uses an ActiveX plugin instead of SSL. Even if I had ActiveX, there's no way I'd do that.

Re:I pay online

[MichaelSmith]

Yes I noticed that ActiveX is rather popular in South Korea. At one place where I worked there the internet gateway would not give you any external pages if you had a USB drive connected to the workstation. The weird thing was that people had worked with this system for years without finding that "feature", until I asked them to download a file for me.

Re:I pay online

[Anonymous Coward]

Same here (except for the separate checking account business). I also still get paper statements for both my bills and my paycheck -- the paycheck for me, so I have a record of what should have been automatically deposited into my account, and the bills for me and my roommates (I pay the bills and they reimburse me) so that we have hard copies in case of any disputes.

Re:I pay online

[REALMAN]

I like the way my phone company's website allows me to pay the monthly bill. On the site you set up your "payment wallet" by inputting your credit or debit card details which are saved and then when it's time to pay your bill you just click "pay bill" then a confirmation box and then it's done.

This method allows me complete control versus auto payments which could cause havoc if the funds aren't in my account on the particular day an auto account would be set to.

Re:I pay online

[davester666]

Not with the idiots at Roger's Communications here in Canada. They are SO stupid, they can't even get their web site to accept payments. Sure, their web site supports logging in via https, and you can enter how much you'd like to pay and your credit card info, and you can verify that you typed everything in. You even get a "Thanks for your payment." confirmation page.

Except you haven't actually paid. Their system doesn't log (at least, according to their CSR's) that I logged in, let alone even attempted a payment. And fortunately this silent failure doesn't actually make a charge against my charge. But it does result (if you don't call Roger's and find out that you haven't paid) in a late fee getting added to your bill, and a huge hassle to get them to remove the late payment (as there is no record that you even tried to pay).

It's been 4 months and counting. And their CSR's don't accept complaints about the web site because (and this is most bizarre), Roger's web site IT department ignores complaints made through their CSR's. I guess IT thinks the CSR's lies to them, just to give them busy-work.

Unfortunately, all the wireless carriers here in Canada are pretty much equally bad, so there's nobody worth switching to.

I was even phoned up by some Roger's agent, made under the guise of getting customer feedback, and I repeated both that their web site doesn't work and that they were just blowing off my complaining about it, but this person also didn't even seem to take the time to note down these complaints, as he didn't seem to be taking the time to make notes, and after a few questions, started trying to get me to switch my home phone over to their VOIP service (and why would I trust their VOIP service if they can't even get their web site to work?).

Re:I pay online

[Daengbo]

I've seen seven non-Windows machines in four years in this country. They were all owned by foreigners. Four belonged to me.

Re:I pay online

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see the need for the extra layer of fund transfers if everything is push? Personally I receive all my bills via USPS or email and push my payments from my banks bill pay service. The few small things that require direct debit, online accounts, bill to a credit card.

This arrangement leaves me in complete control of what funds are going out every month. All that's required from me is to spend 1 or 2 minutes every week approving payments.

Re:I pay online

[dotancohen]

I've seen seven non-Windows machines in four years in this country. They were all owned by foreigners. Four belonged to me.

Are there any large, English-language websites in Korea? I'd like to visit them in Firefox and then write to the webmasters with the problems I encounter. Having the web OS-neutral will be the first step in solving the problems that you describe. My own country was not too different until about two years ago, and I've been actively contacting webmasters for about five years demanding OS- and Browser-neutral websites.

I encourage you to write to them as well. If they don't hear from us, they won't know that there is a problem.

Re:I pay online

[Daengbo]

As far as I know, the government requires the banks to use the ActiveX plugin for banking purposes.

No, the Korean websites aren't really in English. No one uses Google or Yahoo! here. They have their own search (Naver), e-mail (Hanmail), social networks (Don't remember the name), and even office suite (Hangul Office). If it weren't all based on a foreign OS, I'd actually kind of respect their "independence."

Re:I pay online

[dotancohen]

Wow. Thanks for the info, though.

Re:I pay online

[Cruciform]

Ditto. The only automatic payments that come out of my accounts are the ones made directly to the bank itself.
Anything else I manually pay. And why? Because 8 years ago, I signed up for Bell Sympatico DSL. For some reason it wouldn't work at my location and they agreed to take it back. But they continued to bill me the initial set up fee every month for months, taking 142 dollars off my credit card each time. Every time I talked to someone they said it would take 4 to 6 weeks to resolve, and then there was no result.
I finally drafted an email saying I was CC:ing this to my (imaginary) lawyer, and we would be suing immediately. Oddly enough, despite their repeated claims that credit card refunds would take weeks, I got an email back from them that afternoon apologizing, and the money was back on my card the very next day. (but they didn't pay the interest I lost)
I don't trust any company with access to my financials any more.

Re:I pay online

[hedwards]

That would be a cautionary note about impatience. That problem dates back to the period right before SSL was finalized when the South Korean government mandated an ActiveX approach to securing banking connections.

The official SSL spec came out only about 6 months or so later, but by that time there wasn't really much interest in fixing the error.

Fast forward to today, and it means that it's basically impossible for non-Windows computers to access those services.

Re:I pay online

[Anonymous Coward]

I use my bank's free web bill pay system, but without any automation similar to poster above me.

I log in about every other week and schedule payments the day prior to the due date. I have a record and my bank works from all over the world.

I don't go to the individual websites for each biller. All I need is another 30 web site passwords to keep track of.

My bank has never failed to pay the correct amount - unless I failed to type in the wrong amount. Once the check arrived 1 day late and there was a late fee - my bank paid that fee. I only buy stamps for birthday cards now, never to pay a bill.

I don't.

[Leptok]

End of story. Why give them the access when it takes 10 minutes to simply do it myself?

Re:I don't.

[Hognoxious]

Why give them the access when it takes 10 minutes to simply do it myself?

Because you'll forget and get stung with interest and/or penalty fees?

Re:I don't.

[Bazman]

Because it's cheaper?

Over here in the UK some companies give you a discount on your account if you pay by Direct Debit (basically an instruction to your bank to give the company whatever they ask for each month). I say 'discount', of course it's really an extra fee for doing the work yourself. If you pay online with a card you pay extra. I think for my phone company it's an extra GBP4 per quarter.

Companies over here love Direct Debits. Every bill comes with a 'why not pay by Direct Debit?' leaflet. Sadly there's no tick box for "I really don't trust you". Stories of epic fails with DDs are legion - an extra zero on the bill makes the person go overdrawn, they get a bad credit record, they lose their house, they kill all their family and so on. I exaggerate. Slightly.

Sometimes I feel I'm the only one not paying by DD, but that's what they want me to feel...

Re:I don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't heard about a single issue with direct debit yet. Common sense makes people set a limit on the transaction of say common amount +40%.

Re:I don't.

[Skal Tura]

Because it's cheaper?

Over here in the UK some companies give you a discount on your account if you pay by Direct Debit (basically an instruction to your bank to give the company whatever they ask for each month). I say 'discount', of course it's really an extra fee for doing the work yourself. If you pay online with a card you pay extra. I think for my phone company it's an extra GBP4 per quarter.

Companies over here love Direct Debits. Every bill comes with a 'why not pay by Direct Debit?' leaflet. Sadly there's no tick box for "I really don't trust you". Stories of epic fails with DDs are legion - an extra zero on the bill makes the person go overdrawn, they get a bad credit record, they lose their house, they kill all their family and so on. I exaggerate. Slightly.

Sometimes I feel I'm the only one not paying by DD, but that's what they want me to feel...

I think there should be a middle road, so that the bills get automatically posted to your bank account, and automatically paid upto X amount with an confirmation email sent automatically to your inbox.

Those exceeding the amount you could manually go and approve, or if you wish, manually approve every single one. Easier and safer.

Here in Finland, Direct Debit is rarely used infact, and nothing really happens if you cannot afford the invoice, in the past they tried 4 times on 1 day intervals, each time accrued 2.8euros extra charges.

Re:I don't.

[wellingj]

Safety vs. Security?

Re:I don't.

[EnglishDude]

One of the rules of direct debit is that the company making the withdrawl *has* to tell the account holder the amount they're taking out 2 weeks beforehand (unless it's completely fixed). I once had an instruction sent to me way higher than what was supposed to be, I immediately phoned the bank and they cancelled the direct debit and I phoned the company and they sorted the error. From 13 years of using direct debit for several things (I usually have up to 15 direct debits set up), that was the only problem I had. Of course, now I've said that, all 15 direct debits will now take £1,000 each out of my account tomorrow... :)

I'm surprised the States didn't have something like Direct Debit, we've had DD for a long while now. Why is this? (I get the feeling I'll know what the responses will be...)

Re:I don't.

[blowdart]

Indeed; and there's a specific guarantee with Direct Debit, a phone call to the bank will get the money back immediately and it's up to the bank to chase the creditor not you. Creditors must warn you in advance if the payment amount changes, in writing, and you can cancel it at any time. Also creditors are vetted (a little) before they get the facility to allow you to setup direct debits.

The only problem I've had is with electronic DD where you don't need a signature to set it up. I've had a couple of direct debits setup for mobile phones because a cheque book was stolen a few years back; however my bank notifies me in writing every time a new direct debit or standing order is set up so I can check it (ok it's not a useful letter, they send me the reference number for the DD and the reference number for the organisation that set it up; I have to go on-line and review them where I can actually see the name of the organisation, but it's better than nothing.)

Re:I don't.

[jopsen]

In Denmark we pay by a similar system called PBS... but at the end of each month I get a list of bills and amounts that will be withdrawn from my account through PBS... So I have a few days to cancel payments... Also I think my bank can withdraw payments if necessary...

And if things go bad, I'll just showup in my bank saying you didn't tell me this could happen... Cause they really didn't tell me anything... :)

When everybody else does it, then sometimes it easier to just forget that you are smart and technologically superior, play dumb and get things done the easy way... :)

Re:I don't.

[GoulDuck]

Here in Denmark, we have a system called "Betalings service" (Payment service). It's a system created by the banks to automate your bills. I think its very reliable and I have yet to experience an error. It makes sure that the bills (the monthly bills I have added to the system) gets paid on time. It also gives the companies that use the system option to put money back into an account. Once a month I get a statement that shows me what bills are going to be paid. These informations are pulled into my online bank, so I can see all stuff (loan payback etc.) going out of my account and I can always stop one payment or remove it from the automatic system via the online bank.

Like Bazman tells about in the UK, many companies gives you a rebate if you use the system.

I love the system. :)

Re:I don't.

[mabhatter654]

not all banks offer that type of online banking. That is the trouble. Of the two Credit Unions I would use in my town (that don't rob you blind like the banks) My bank doesn't offer true online banking, and the other offers only "mail a check".

Issue's I've seen:
Some bank's "online" is merely putting thru and ACH electronic check when you suggest. Some are better than others but they almost always want to wire the money on THEIR terms so they can float the transit.

The companies that want you to give them your info vary greatly. One of my bills takes the bill out exactly on the date you say, every time. My telco wants to vary by 5 days either way, whenever they choose... that totally humps you when you expect it to come after your paychecks direct deposit in to checking.

Personally I think the banks like it to be hard, after all, most of the people paying overdraft charges and late fees on credit cards could eliminate those things if the banks evened out their systems. Personally, the banks are still making money on "floating the check" in the US and don't want the big flux of money on the first & fifteenth, they want the money spread out so they can earn interest on it for a few days.

Re:I don't.

[mabhatter654]

we do, but few banks have the good version you describe. Most banks or companies have some little difference in the process, when you have to keep 7 different bill schedules because they won't pick the days you ask for it gets frustrating. Also, banks hit accounts a lot harder for overdraft fees, heck they charge nearly as much now for "failover to savings" as for an overdraft. I think part of the issue is that banks all have credit cards they'd rather have you use. They're all in on it, so there's no reason to make the banking any simpler if they don't have to.

Re:I don't.

[Dionysus]

Because you'll forget and get stung with interest and/or penalty fees?

Which is why I set up payment the same day I get the bill. Basically, I get online notification (usually email) that a bill is due. I log into my bank and set up the payment with the payment happening on the due date. Then forget about it.

With email notification, I don't delete the email until I set up the payment.

Re:I don't.

[Inda]

5% cheaper in most cases.

Once again I'm amazed at the backward nature of our friends across the water. I thought their issues with mobile phone payments was bad enough...

The thing I like about Direct Debit is I don't have to worry about bills. I can budget easily, there are no monthly shocks, I know exactly how much is coming out my account on the 24th of each month.

I know some people in the UK moan (moan in the UK? Surely not?), moan about the utility companies at year end when they are in credit. A simple phone call to adjust payments is very straight forward and if you feel you're paying too much, they'll decrease the payments without question. I once told them I wouldn't be a home weekends any more and they instantly reduced monthly payments by 25%.

I suppose if I had one moan it would be the council tax because it's paid over 10 months, not 12. Some see this as a 2-month free bonus - they are stupid.

Re:I don't.

[dpf44]

I say 'discount', of course it's really an extra fee for doing the work yourself.

I'd have to disagree. The reason for the extra charge is because non-DD customers are a higher liability. A tiny minority of DD customers will go overdue on a payment, whereas it's considerably more likely for a non-DD customer to miss a payment. The charges for not paying by DD are typically to offset the subsequent costs to the company to pursue and collect late payments.

As for damage to your credit rating, or getting charges from your bank if you become overdrawn due to a charging error, the Direct Debit Guarantee protects you against all that.

You're notified in advance of changes to your usual charge (ie. you're invoice, which tells you when and how much money will be taken), and you can cancel the arrangement before the money is taken if you so desire. The company charging you are liable for overcharges to your account, including associated banking charges where applicable.

Even if you later discover incorrect or fraudulent charges being made to your account via DD, your bank can reverse every single direct debit payment ever charged to your account by a company, given sufficient cause.

While the system, like any other, is not perfect and open to some abuse, UK legislation and Banking Codes ultimately protect you.

If nothing else, it's certainly more geeky than archaic and outdated forms of payment like cheques and paper money.

Re:I don't.

[Stephen]

One of the rules of direct debit is that the company making the withdrawl *has* to tell the account holder the amount they're taking out 2 weeks beforehand (unless it's completely fixed).

Not just that. If the company making the withdrawl, or the bank, makes an error, they are required to give you a full and immediate refund. Look up "direct debit guarantee" on your favourite search engine.

The main problem is that this puts the onus on you to notice the mistake. Still, you get three years to notice it. It sounds from the New York Times article as if Americans only get fifteen days to notice it, which is way too little.

Re:I don't.

[b4upoo]

Cost is the real issue. Mailing letters is an expense and every now and then mail gets lost or stolen. With an electronic transfer there may be no cost at all and you save time every month.
            For those that are really worried it is easy enough to set up two bank accounts such that one transfers just enough money from one account to the other to pay for the monthly transfers. That way the account with the big money is not exposed to anyone but yourself. And you can do your bill paying with savings accounts rather than checking accounts. Check books are a path to disaster as in my neighbor having a check torn out from the back of her book while her car was being cleaned at the car wash.

Re:I don't.

[julesh]

Stories of epic fails with DDs are legion - an extra zero on the bill makes the person go overdrawn, they get a bad credit record, they lose their house, they kill all their family and so on. I exaggerate. Slightly.

You do know that if an incorrect direct debit makes you go overdrawn, all you have to do is tell your bank and they will refund it to you, along with any charges/interest that occurred because of it, and correct any incorrect information that has been placed on your credit record, don't you? All it takes to fix a direct debit error is one phone call...

Re:I don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

Stories of epic fails with DDs are legion - an extra zero on the bill makes the person go overdrawn, they get a bad credit record, they lose their house, they kill all their family and so on. I exaggerate.

I'll take your word for it, but I've never heard of a problem. And maybe you're forgetting the direct debit guarantee offered as standard as part of all direct debit agreements, part of which states that you will be notifed of the amount well in advance of being taken, and that if there is an error or problem of any kind you are entitled to an immediate refund of the full amount direct from your bank.

Re:I don't.

[RAMMS EIN]

Because, if you have to pay rent, utility bill, phone bill, internet bill, health insurance, and car insurance, you're already up to an hour of time you could have saved. Since I live in a country where automated bill payment is the norm and rarely goes wrong, I'd rather have my extra hour. If I lived in the States, I would think twice about that, though. But then again, that's one of the reasons I don't want to live in the States.

Re:I don't.

[Bazman]

Good job you weren't on a 2-week holiday and missed the notice. Yes, sure, one phone call fixes everything. Read the Money pages in any good newspaper for stories where - O RLY? - banks mess up.

I'm keeping my money under my bed. Kids, get out of my yard. Aren't policemen looking younger?

Re:I don't.

[xaxa]

Here in Finland, Direct Debit is rarely used infact, and nothing really happens if you cannot afford the invoice, in the past they tried 4 times on 1 day intervals, each time accrued 2.8euros extra charges.

In the UK, the equivalent charges are more like £28. There is currently a test case going through the high court (or something) on whether this is fair, and it's unlikely the banks will win. Then they'll have to refund all the money! But we do get free banking here, so effectively disorganised people pay for everyone's banking with the high charges -- but having been charged a couple of times I think paying a little for the account would be preferable.

Re:I don't.

[oiron]

Calling Ben Franklin...

Re:I don't.

[teh moges]

I pay my own bills as well. It helps to budget, helps manage money flow and also helps ensure that I know where my money is going.
My car payments are automatic, but currently its the only one. The loan is with my bank, so should there be a hassle, I only need to call one place to work it out, and there isn't an option for them to say 'not out fault'.

Re:I don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

over here in the states, we have kind of the same discount. The only problem is they called it a "Conveninence charge" and tack on another $3. At least my electric company does. I'm not sure why they think it is more expensive to not have to hire staff to do it.

Also, when we renew the registration on our cars, there is a $1.50 charge to do it if we use their website. That charge is not there if we spend the time to write out a check and mail it.

Seems like electronic payments would be cheaper, faster, and easier, but some see it as another revenue stream.

Re:I don't.

[jimicus]

Trust me, banks hit you hard for unauthorised overdrafts in the UK. It's not unknown for a £10 overdraft to become a £100 overdraft purely with bank charges.

See, they charge you a fee because you've gone overdrawn without authorisation - generally anything up to about £25.

Then they have to write to you to notify you of this. So they charge you for the letter - probably another £25.

Then they apply charges for every week/fortnight/month (delete as applicable) your account is in an unauthorised overdraft.

Then they charge you a swingeing rate of interest on this.

Then they write to you again two weeks later to say "Were you planning on paying off this unauthorised overdraft? Oh, BTW, this letter's costing you another £25".

Re:I don't.

[Bert64]

Well, as someone who has never incurred bank charges, i'm quite happy to continue paying nothing and be subsidised by those who can't keep their finances in order.

Re:I don't.

[Bert64]

I still get a letter every month from one particular utility that demands a check...
I have explained to them over and over again that i don't have a check book, and that it is now the year 2004..2005..2006..2007..2008 etc... They still persist. I have to chase them every month for their bank account so i can transfer the money and then i have to chase them again to make them verify that the money has actually been received because they don't expect payments that way.

Re:I don't.

[Blackknight]

There's this wonderful invention called a calendar.

Re:I don't.

[Skal Tura]

Here we get free banking until the age of 25 :)

Re:I don't.

[tompaulco]

The only problem is they called it a "Conveninence charge" and tack on another $3.
Yup, same here. I was going to use direct debit on on of our utilities, but they were going to charge extra for the convenience of them not having to hire someone to open my envelope.
Also, we have the same charge when we renew our car registration. $1.50 fee if we mail it in, or $.50 fee if we go to a tag agency and stand there and wait for them to type it in. There is no option for no fee at all.

Re:I don't.

[xaxa]

That used to be my attitude, but then I found out that there are people being charged hundreds of pounds in charges, which just doesn't seem fair. The two times I've been charged I was charged £35 for going overdrawn, then another £35 for going overdrawn again (because of the going-overdrawn fee being taken out). £70, for trying to go 6 pence overdrawn?
In both cases, it was a cheque being paid in months after I'd written it which I'd forgotten about.

It's worse when several direct debit payments are attempted, and each one takes £35 out in fees, making it less likely that any other payments will succeed.

So long as it remains simple to change accounts, if banks introduce charges they should at least be low to stay competitive.

Re:I don't.

[dpf44]

I can't imagine anything more annoying.

Cheques in the UK are guaranteed by their banks (on the most part) for up to 100GBP. However they're so open to fraud that many retailers just won't accept them as payment.

Even the larger retail chains are stopping taking cheques.

Re:I don't.

[gnasher719]

Companies over here love Direct Debits. Every bill comes with a 'why not pay by Direct Debit?' leaflet. Sadly there's no tick box for "I really don't trust you". Stories of epic fails with DDs are legion - an extra zero on the bill makes the person go overdrawn, they get a bad credit record, they lose their house, they kill all their family and so on. I exaggerate. Slightly.

Direct debit is harmless. If they take too much you call your bank and they sort it. If any scumbags manage to talk you into a direct debit, and you want to cancel it, you call your bank, and it is cancelled. They can't get your money anymore. Legitimate companies actually use this as a very simple way to cancel contracts. You have a subscription, or an insurance, that is paid by direct debit, all you need to do to cancel the subscription or insurance is cancel the direct debit. And yes, you do exaggerate. Any problems with Direct Debit will be sorted easily.

If you give anyone access to your credit card on the other hand, you can get into deep shit. There is no way short of going to court and getting a court order to force a company to cancel their access to your credit card.

Re:I don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, living in the States, you'd just waste that extra hour making sure there's been no funny business with the charges.

Re:I don't.

[squizzar]

I concur. I got stung a couple of times as a student. Go past your overdraft limit and all your payments stop. Get charged for unauthorised overdraft , £35. Direct debit can't be paid £35. And just to ice the cake, the next time you put some money in your account they try and take the fees. Of course they don't check if you actually have enough to pay the fees so you go past your overdraft limit and get charged another fee. It's a real vicious cycle.

I found that going to the bank and calling them a bunch of bastards worked and that there was no way I was paying the extra charges because _they_ decided to charge me when they knew full well the money wasn't there usually got most of them removed. Things like the direct debit charge though - it costs them _nothing_ to process that. They send a message back to the company expecting payment that the amount isn't available and that's it. The creditor (e.g. phone company) then sends you a letter saying they still need payment. How that costs £35 is beyond me.

Also, I can't remember exactly off the top of my head, but there is some misleading stuff being bandied around by the banks re. this High Court case. It only applies to certain kinds of charges (I think being charged for going overdrawn when a free overdraft or larger limit would have been freely available) not many of the other charges that are unfair. Of course the banks are refusing to refund _all_ charges because of the case, even if they are not part of it.

Re:I don't.

[Joe Jay Bee]

In my experience, most people who go overdrawn and incur fees do so as a direct result of their own carelessness. They went out shopping and didn't check their balance, or didn't leave enough in the account to cover standing orders and Direct Debits. They then complain that the bank should have nannied them and refused their payments, when that could have had even worse consequences, and try and get the fees reversed.

If the overdraft is because of someone else's error, be it the bank's error, a DD company's error, your employer's error, the fees should be waived, and £30 or whatever is far too high; but if you just decided to go down Tesco with your debit card and didn't bother to check whether you had enough money in your account, why should you get away scot free?

Re:I don't.

[clodney]

Because in the huge majority of cases nothing goes wrong. I have 6 bills paid every month by direct debit of my checking account. All of these have been in place for at least 5 years.

And I've had direct deposit of my paycheck since sometime in the mid 80s.

In that time I have never had a problem. If a bill is lost in the mail, or I am traveling for a few weeks, no worries. If I accidentally toss a bill in the junk pile, no worries.

The chance of an error on their side is less than the chance of an error on my side. And the consequences of an error are not catastrophic.

Most of my direct debits were setup before my bank offered online bill pay, and if I were starting over I would go that route. But really, it has been a trouble free experience for me.

Re:I don't.

[xaxa]

Last time this happened I'd written a cheque for £10, which the recipient had sat on for 5 months. Then, at the end of term (i.e. I'd spend all my student loan, and hadn't yet got any money from working in the summer) they cashed it. I had £9.94 in my account, so the cheque wasn't paid and I was charged £38. A few days later the bank charged me another £38 for the same cheque. Can you really call that carelessness on my part? And is £76 a fair fine for trying to spend six pence more than I had?

Someone has mentioned that in Finland the fee is less than EUR3.

People with little money whose salary is paid in a few days late can be even worse hit. I just don't think it's right to charge the poorest people for everyone's banking.

Re:I don't.

[Joe Jay Bee]

Can you really call that carelessness on my part? And is £76 a fair fine for trying to spend six pence more than I had?

No, and no - I specifically said that the fees are too steep - £12, max, same as with credit card fees. And it's not your fault that some other idiot sat on a cheque for 5 months. Hence why you should appeal the fees.

Which bank is this, by the way? Sounds like NatWest to me (had similar fun with them one time, bunch of bellends). Try and get an account with HSBC, they don't charge you if you're only a little bit over.

Re:I don't.

[BrokenHalo]

Here we get free banking until the age of 25 :)

As a matter of (purely historical, in my case), where's "here"?

Re:I don't.

[xaxa]

Finland (see the GP of the post you replied to).

Re:I don't.

[Renraku]

If a company takes too much from your account and causes you to generate overdraft fees, they won't help you. The bank won't help you, either. In order to get some kind of satisfactory resolution out of them, you have to take them to court.

According to the bank, the overdraft fees are your fault for paying automatically.
According to the company, the overdraft fees are your fault because they claim to not be responsible for them, even if its their fault.

So there you have it, fees for absolutely no fault of your own.

Sounds like fraud to me, but to Bank of America, its Monday.

Re:I don't.

[epine]

I you care about your reputation, and it turns that the bank is at fault, does the bank take responsibility for the damage they have caused to your reputation if they denied payment from an account that should have been in good standing? It's just the nuclear industry claiming cost parity (or something in the vicinity) to other generation technologies, while not mentioned the legislative liability exemption from a liability that would not have been insurable at any price. Oh yes, after the little banking accident, if you show up five times with all the required paper work, we just put the numbers back where they should have been, no harm done.

The credit agency? Find me one credit agency that reports the number of adverse credit entries reversed in the last month where a bank took full responsibility for the reversal. Evne better: broken down by banking institution.

The process of restoring your credit rating is right out of the movie Brazil. Don't resist too long, your credit rating might never recover.

I'll be pushing my payments, thank you very much, until I'm pushing daisies.

Re:I don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

For awhile I had a monthly bill that wasn't too much, varied from maybe USD10 to USD40. I got sick of sending them a small check each month, so I sent them a check for USD150. The following bills showed my account with a credit (reducing each month) until I had a balance owing. Then sent in another check for USD150, would last about another 6 months. Very convenient, saved a lot of checks and postage. If there was a dispute (it happens with any service), they had my USD150 until it was sorted out, not a big deal.

Re:I don't.

[inKubus]

I just don't pay bills, that makes it pretty simple. Credit cards? Pft, save up for large purchases. Keep a nice emergency fund for even bigger stuff. Spend the money you save on interest on insurance for other likely stuff (auto warranty, etc.) that might go wrong. Utilities, pre-pay a year upfront using contract rates. You can call and ask them about it, they will even pay interest. Especially if it's a public utility. You can buy a utility bond and trade that for power.

Re:I don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems like electronic payments would be cheaper, faster, and easier, but some see it as another revenue stream.

Yep, they are cheaper, faster, easier. But too many lemmings see it as convienent for them to pay 1.50 extra to not have to write/mail a check or stand in a line. So the convience is not the banks convience, it is the lemmings convience.

Myself, I flatly, outright, refuse to ever make use of any system where I pay an extra fee for a service that saves the bank money. If that is the case, they will just get a check in the mail and have to handle it the old fashioned way.

If more of the lemmings thought as I do, those 1.50 convience charges would disappear.

Re:I don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

Online banking payment on due date. Exactly what I do. I'd be interested to know if you ever used to do it differently, and if so what made you change? And would you change to paying from a credit card account if you got reward points on the card? These are things I've thought about from time to time.

Re:I don't.

[timftbf]

I know some people in the UK moan (moan in the UK? Surely not?), moan about the utility companies at year end when they are in credit. A simple phone call to adjust payments is very straight forward and if you feel you're paying too much, they'll decrease the payments without question. I once told them I wouldn't be a home weekends any more and they instantly reduced monthly payments by 25%.

It's not specifically about paying too much, for me, it's about paying the *right* bill, at the time. One of the things I despise about utility companies is their insane estimated bills (both high and low), and the hoops you have to jump through with some of them to get them to accept a corrected reading.

I'd quite happily pay by DD if they would collect my meter readings once a quarter, then debit the correct bill. But the choices are always either monthly estimates by DD, or manual payment of quarterly bills. At least I can get *some* of the discount by receiving and paying the quarterly bills on-line.

In New Zealand

[Anonymous Coward]

An Automatic Payment is something where the money is pushed out of your account at your end

Direct Debit is where a company has access to your account to withdraw

Yes, companies often 'forget' to discontinue the Direct Debit when you cancel services with them. People who use this method probably also fall for Hire Purchase and Lease to Own deals too

One-Time Payment

[Bardez]

Every time I log in to any online payable account, they neg me to set up automatic bill payments. But personally, it's worth the half-hour to an hour of my time -once a month- to fill out an online form. Why would I give anyone unfettered access to my money? What if I have some sort of emergency crop up? I have heard numerous times from co-workers how the automatic deduction will roll out way too early (three weeks ahead of schedule at one point), causing overdraft fees that are entirely the deductor's fault. If they fuck up, the corporate machine would take months if not years to settle any kind of litigation in the event that their customer service department does not agree with my claims. I'll do the one-time payments, thanks. I figure it's worth the hour to control when and where I disperse my money.

Re:One-Time Payment

[digitalchinky]

About 10 or 12 years ago when I was living in Australia I used to pay absolutely every single bill by visa debit card on line (No possibility of overdrawing, no money, no pay). Electricity, water, gas, telephone, shopping, take out, etc.

They did have a system you could set up to do it automatically back then too, though given that all of these pay on line services only took perhaps no more than 2 minutes to actually complete, I never saw the point. You could also pay by phone in much the same way, dial up the number on the bill, follow a couple of prompts, type the amount, cc number, and done.

Australia has been pretty forward thinking in terms of on line payments, at least in the early days of the internet they were, probably things have stagnated since then, I don't live there any more.

Re:One-Time Payment

[nospam007]

> Every time I log in to any online payable account, they neg me to set up automatic bill payments. But personally, it's worth the half-hour to an hour of my time -once a month- to fill out an online form. Why would I give anyone unfettered access to my money? What if I have some sort of emergency crop up?

By emergency you mean you being unconscious in the hospital for a couple of months and upon your return finding other people living in your apartment because you didn't pay the rent for several months?

Re:One-Time Payment

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoa, you don't have somebody close enough that would take care of these things for you?

Re:One-Time Payment

[YttriumOxide]

10 to 12 years ago, I wasn't in Australia, so I can't comment on how it was back then, but I WAS there from 7 years ago through to 1 year ago (I've since moved to Germany).

The current "popular" system in Australia is BPay, which I really like. The biller sends you a normal bill, but to pay it you simply go online, select the biller from your list (or type their code if you haven't paid them before), type the amount, and hit OK (optionally, I could also select a date/time for the payment instead of paying immediately upon hitting OK). You get all the advantages of manual control over your bill payments, and the ease of paying them. I would generally pay my bill (or set up a payment for a later date) within a few minutes of receiving it in the mail. Direct Debits and Automatic Payments are still used for some things, but in general, I used BPay for everything except the "recurring fixed costs" (e.g. rent and my ISP) which I could definitively say were always exactly the same at the exact same time each month.

Here in Germany, it seems to be a bit of a mess, but it might just be that I don't understand everything yet. Some things, I'm paying by an automatic payment (such as my rent), other things (such as gas/power/water) I receive a bill and have to go to the bank, fill out a payment slip, and give it to the bank teller, other things (such as my car insurance), the payment slip (pre-filled out) is included in the bill, so I just tear it off, write on my account details, sign it, and then take it to the bank, and yet more things (such as my ISP/Phone) they have direct debit from my account, which I guess I agreed to, but am not so happy about since I have no idea what I've paid until I receive my bank statement at the end of the month. Suffice to say, I end up going to the bank once or twice a month, which actually really annoys me after Australia where the ONLY time I went to the bank was to open my account.

Re:One-Time Payment

[TapeCutter]

As an Ausssie I wouldn't say it's stagnated, I'd say it's still working. No need for DD here, although utilities push very hard and offer discounts if you give them the DD keys.

Amex takes care of it

[beefstu01]

I can pay bills through the American Express credit card management site. I'm really not too worried, as I can always dispute charges on my credit cards- happened once and it was all sorted out in about half an hour. I also keep a low credit limit on my cards, so if there's any damage financially it's minimal.

Direct debit

[BorgDrone]

Over here (the netherlands) lots of people use direct debit. It's safe and convenient and it doesn't give anyone unlimited access to anything. If you give permission for a regular direct debit to a company you can at any time cancel this with your bank, you can also undo an automatic withdrawal (within a timeframe of 2 weeks after the withdrawal iirc), no questions asked.

Also, people rarely use creditcards here, everyone uses direct debit cards, which are secured with a PIN code. Cheques are not used any more. If you need to transfer some money to someone you usually transfer it directly from your account to theirs.

Re:Direct debit

[cuby]

Yes, that's true. This behaviour is common to almost all Europe.

I never really activated direct debit because I want to have the real perception of all the costs I have. I take 15 minutes every month to pay all the bills online, that's not much.

Moreover, back in collage I worked in a call center of a major utility when they introduced direct debit, it was a major improvement to consumers. Before that, banks had full access to the accounts and I remember some of them were CLEANED by bill mistakes. No need to highlight that this would take some weeks to correct...
When you use these type of payment, the probability of not even look to the bill is high... All sorts of things can be happening without your knowledge.

Re:Direct debit

[Teun]

I can second that, as a matter of fact in most Western European countries it's the bank that protects you against wrongful withdrawals, similar to what a credit card company can do but much cheaper.

Here in The Netherlands it's mainly the cable company UPC that gets in the news for continuing monthly withdrawals after cancellation of a contract but the banks sort these problems without cost for the individual.

Last month it was thirty years ago I got a credit card because I experienced the hard way it was a necessity for international travel. To get it (from American Express) my bank needed to mediate and I was the first person with one for this local branch.

Even then it was the normal thing to do to (fully) pay the credit card off every month by Direct Debit.

I have never had any interest payments due to a credit card company because of this system, after all, when needed, a bank loan is much cheaper than a CC overdraw.

In the present age even the credit card is not needed any more, virtually anywhere in the world I can use my bank's debit card to get cash as they are associated with Maestro.

Cheques are generally not used in The Netherlands as they are not guaranteed and you have to wait up to 14 days to get your money, it is only from the UK or the US that you sometimes see these expensive, worthless and outmoded things coming in, the IBAN system is much more efficient.

Re:Direct debit

[sandman_eh]

Cheques are getting rarer in the Uk.

But If you go to a small event/festival it is the only non-cash option for payments. As the CC companies merchant fees for the cc terminals which are cellular are horrendous.

Also in UK cheques are paid in 4days of presentation, and many banks issue 50 & 100 UKP guarantee cards , which protects the merchant.

Re:Direct debit

[Anonymous Coward]

Regarding transferring money to another account, is this through the internet or what? I can't imagine the transfer being free and without limits like a normal check (cheque).

Bank of America lets us transfer only 1000 dollars in any 24 hour period. They also charge some sort of fee if it's to a different bank. No fee for transfers to another Bank of America account.

So we still use checks.

Re:Direct debit

[Xonea]

For private individuals, bank transfers of money are usually unlimited and free througout europe, even to another bank in another country.

Re:Direct debit

[John_Sauter]

Over here (the netherlands) lots of people use direct debit....If you need to transfer some money to someone you usually transfer it directly from your account to theirs.

That wouldn't work in the United States, where recreational drugs and prostitution (in most places) is illegal, and therefore dependent on an underground economy, which requires an anonymous way of making payments.

Re:Direct debit

[GaryOlson]

Can you recommend a bank in the Netherlands where people in the USA can open an account? Do the protections of direct debit in the Netherlands extend to the USA? Will banks in the Netherlands pay American bills in US dollars? As noted in other comments, we don't trust our banks nor the companies which generate the bills.

This could be an example of how the Internet could force business in one area of the world to become more competitive because the customers are using a service in a completely different jurisdiction with more consumer oriented services.

Re:Direct debit

[hanwen]

As far as I know, for opening an account, banks in the NL need you to be there, show official ID (passport) and have a proof of having a Dutch SSN.

Re:Direct debit

[xaxa]

Can you recommend a bank in the Netherlands where people in the USA can open an account? Do the protections of direct debit in the Netherlands extend to the USA? Will banks in the Netherlands pay American bills in US dollars? As noted in other comments, we don't trust our banks nor the companies which generate the bills.

The UK has more-or-less the same consumer protection laws. I don't know if they'd apply to international transactions, I think it's unlikely. You can get US$ accounts, but I can't find any information on them -- they aren't common, and are mostly for businesses. Normal £ accounts will charge for currency conversions, how much they charge depends on the account and the transaction type (e.g. they don't seem to charge at all on my account if I buy something in € on a card, but if I transferred money to a US$ account they probably would).

I've looked through one set of terms and conditions, and they only mention residence as a requirement of some of the accounts.

In any case, I doubt it's worth the hassle ;-).

Re:Direct debit

[AliasMarlowe]

In the present age even the credit card is not needed any more, virtually anywhere in the world I can use my bank's debit card to get cash as they are associated with Maestro.

There are a few things that credit cards are still needed for, such as renting a car while abroad. A few years ago I overheard an irate would-be Budget customer being rejected because he had a Visa debit card instead of a Visa credit card. Car rental companies in the US don't accept debit cards for a rental. It's considered the same as trying to rent for cash - you must leave them a very large security deposit (what they think the car is worth) which will be returned when the car is returned.

Car Insurance

[Anonymous Coward]

I only pay my car insurance automatically. I'm on a monthly payment plan and I've given State Farm my ACH number to do withdrawals from my checking account because otherwise I'd forget. Not to mention that my rate changes every month, with my 21st birthday, expiry of a car accident surcharge, and the subtleties of billing a six-month period on a monthly basis.

Common practice

[jasticE]

This has been common practice in Germany for as long as I remember (or live). If you do notice an illegitimate transfer, you can tell the bank to undo it, at which point it is up to the company again to bug you about the money. I think all in all, it's less hassle to just check whether all deductions are legit than to manually transfer money to your billers.

Re:Common practice

[PerlDudeXL]

True.

My phone/internet company actually wants even a little fee for not using automatic
debit payment.

Re:Common practice

[Anonymous Coward]

My internet company "sort of" does the opposite: they give a discount if you use direct debit.
In the end it's exactly the same of course, the discount is calculated into the monthly fee in advance and then subtracted if you use DD, but to the consumer "pay less if you do" sounds better than "pay more if you don't".

Re:Common practice

[Anonymous Coward]

Same thing here, in Spain: almost everyone receives payment from his employer directly into his bank account, and all utility companies use automatic debit payment.

Re:Common practice

[Anonymous Coward]

Most landlords in Germany won't even rent an apartment to you if you don't set up automatic debit payment for the rent.

How about the good old fashioned way?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yanno, doing it manually? it may cost more when it comes to gas and there's a risk of doing it via snail mail, but, at least there's no direct access to my banking account.

No one, not even my employer, other than me should have access to my account. They can deposit to my account all they want, but direct access? go to hell.

"mistakes" happen and then there's companies that will deny everything and beat around the bush. Sue them? with what money? of course, if you're smart you have multiple accounts at multiple banks.

I may sound paranoid, but when it comes to money, it's your lifeline in this day and age, and with identity theft on the rise and cheap (and often outsourced) labor, and computers making mistakes, leaving no paper trail, etc. I find it disturbing how much people trust others with sensitive info.

Why Pay?

[thetartanavenger]

I just don't pay my bills.. Problem solved. Hang on I think there's someone knocking at the door...

Re:Why Pay?

[Z00L00K]

What door? Hobos don't have doors unless they sleep in a toilet stall.

Re:Why Pay?

[Mathinker]

> What door? Hobos don't have doors unless they sleep in a toilet stall.

Idiot! It was his mother at the basement door. He meant that his mother pays his bills for him.

Re:Why Pay?

[thetartanavenger]

Yes but this is one of those high class toilet stalls. Much nicer than your one at home I can assure you.

Verizon

[Anachragnome]

I had to CLOSE a bank account to keep Verizon out of it. They first drew more then I owed them from it, then after I told them I wanted paper bills that I would pay myself(they also tried to charge me for the bills), and to not auto-pay anymore, they promptly attempted to draw the same amount, found they had no access to it and charged me an insufficient funds charge. I believe that was entirely intentional.

That was enough for me. Nobody has access to any of my accounts but myself. Not even my wife. That way when I have a charge to my account, I can ask to see my signature on something specifically authorizing it. No signature? Not my problem.

The hassle of dealing with idiots like that FAR outweighs the convenience of auto-pay.

Re:Verizon

[Skapare]

My father received an offer from Verizon to sign up for a plan than included flat-fee long distance. He decided to sign up. They gave him a date when it would be activated (for some reason they couldn't just click a button on the account and change it on the fly). So the date comes and passes. I was there at the time and wanted to do some long distance dialup access overnight (he didn't have broadband), so I called Verizon to check and they confirmed his account was indeed on the plan now. So I did the long dialups over 3 nights. Then he gets the bill and they charged him for the calls over $200. I dealt with them for him. When I asked them what happened, they claimed that even though he was on the plan, the long distance carrier had not switched him over, yet. But the long distance carrier was Verizon. So basically Verizon the local phone company and Verizon the long distance carrier couldn't activate accounts on the same day. It took a month to get them to admit their error, and 2 more months to get the late fees from this error removed.

BTW, the customer rep people themselves were friendly and tried to help. It's just the processes they are stuck with are so poorly designed, and they don't have authority to do anything beyond the options given on their screens.

Re:Verizon

[ColaMan]

Nobody has access to any of my accounts but myself. Not even my wife.

I hope you've got things sorted out well for emergencies. Somebody has power of attorney, yes?

Re:Verizon

[Aerynvala]

My sister had a similar problem with Verizon, actually. Only closing the account didn't solve it because her credit union re-opened the damn account when Verizon tried to get more money out of it. I don't recall how it was resolved, but it was a huge mess that took months to sort.

Re:Verizon

[Anachragnome]

When I closed the bank account, I told them "Moving out of the country and don't ever expect to be back here.". Although it was totally untrue, it meant, to them, that they were never going to hear from me again, and that it was in THEIR best interest to not give anyone money on my behalf.

And, to previous post, yes, of course I have taken precautions for emergencies. That includes making sure I don't have companies like Verizon fucking with my finances and leaving my wife a mess to deal with.

Re:Verizon

[Nimey]

You know that marriages are based on /trust/, right? If you don't trust your wife, why are you married to her, and why does she put up with your mistrust?

Re:Verizon

[ktismael]

You know that marriages are based on /trust/, right? If you don't trust your wife, why are you married to her, and why does she put up with your mistrust?

I don't really see this as a trust issue at all. The point poster was making is that he needs to know where all purchases come from so that he knows if they are incorrect. Control of access doesn't automatically imply mistrust.

In many marriages only one of the members is responsible for paying bills. That doesn't necessarily imply that they don't trust the other person to do it, merely that it is more convenient and less prone to error (double paying or non-payment). In a similar fashion, only having one person on each account ensures that all charges can be identified immediately, making it easier to detect fraud and errors.

He also doesn't have visibility on his wife's spending habits (not being on her accounts) which actually implies more trust than joint accounts in that particular dimension.

Re:Verizon

[Nimey]

He said that his wife doesn't even have *access* to "his" accounts. Not that he's the one who does the bookwork.

Re:Verizon

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm... well, what if your wife has a tendency to trade the cow for magic beans (figuratively speaking). It could be something like, "Oh, honey, but I have a system for playing the slots, this time I can't lose!" or "Baby, it's not a pyramid scheme, it's more of a trapezoid."

Think it can't happen? Have you ever tried to explain to someone who really believes they are going to win the Lotto what their odds really are? Heck, I can't even get people to not put their quarters in those claw machines you see sometimes.

Now, you might say, "Well, yes, but I'm sure that if you calmly explain to your wife that she just can't throw the money that you've painstakingly saved of for 20 years into some get rich quick real estate scam, she's not going to figure that you'll not only never find out but you'll be so overjoyed by your new mansion that you'll forget you were even mad."

To which I say, "Trust in Allah, but tie up your camel." (In this case, the camel would be your accounts, if you want to tie up your wife that's between you and her.)

Put it another way, my SO recently asked me for another credit card. She has (and rightly so) ghastly credit. I made the mistake a few years back of giving her a credit card, she used my SSN to open a couple of others (one with Dell, one with Chase). Long story short, I'm paying back old credit card bills, plus a personal loan from my parents, to the tune of $900.00 per month. (Oh, and I have no savings to speak of anymore.)

Trust her? No I don't. I tried to dump her, but she was so pathetic when she came crawling back... and she really looked good in that dress....

Re:Verizon

[ktismael]

Ummm, yeah... which is exactly what I said, if you read my post. There is a demonstrable benefit to controlling access that doesn't have anything to do with trust. Does your wife have the passwords for all of your email accounts? If not, is it because you don't trust her? Or is it because: a) she doesn't need it, b) she doesn't want it, and c) basic security rules dictate that less access yields higher security? Again: Trust doesn't need to have anything to do with it. In any case, I'm not sure how repeating what the OP said, which I also said in my post constitutes an argument. Yes, his wife doesn't have access to accounts in his name. Granted. How does that in any way argue against my post?

Re:Verizon

[Anachragnome]

Yeah, pretty much what you said.

Has nothing to do with the trust I have for my WIFE.

It was a matter of limiting access to nobody but myself, in essence, to ensure that ANY charge, that I myself did not authorize, is suspect.

No better way to separate the wheat from the chaff.

It also has the advantage of PROTECTING my wife. If one of our accounts is compromised, We still have access to safe accounts. Simply a matter of not putting all our eggs in one basket.

Re:Verizon

[roninamano]

Actually, there are federal regulations that control your situation. I believe that you are able to file a federal action and get some amount, $1000 per violation, for each time they failed to stop billing after your request. They are also required to give you some days notice before billing a different amount. Nice to see our federal regulations enforced!! LOL!

I did not know these regs until I read a small claims case where the landlord lost big time for charging a tenants ACH account double fees without notifying the tenant. Judge was Schlomo Hagler Civil Court, can't remember the case or the cite. Well written, more like the federal opinions used to be until they hired morons as judges in this circuit.

Just use cash

[wisty]

Don't trust them. Don't trust anyone. Just send your payments over in cold hard cash. Circulated quarters are best.

Likewise...

[Hamster Lover]

I live in Canada and pay all of my bills through my bank's web site. As much as people like to rail about the lack of competition in Canada due to the fact that there are only five chartered banks for the entire country (other than credit unions, but they are provincially regulated), all five of the chartered banks offer sophisticated on-line banking (some more sophisticated than others). Hell, I even paid my property tax to the City of Calgary on-line. There is no futzing around with the biller in question and arranging electronic payments, you simply add them to your payee list on your bank's website.

Now, I could set up automatic bill payments, but I had a bad experience with the Royal Bank and a student loan; that isn't going to happen again.

Re:Likewise...

[Tridus]

/agree

Its a lot easier to dispute a bill when you haven't paid it. Once they have the money, its pretty hard to get it back.

Re:Likewise...

[JustOK]

likewise.
I can receive most bills within the account or still have them sent to my house. Payments are when I make them and for the amount I say.

Re:Likewise...

[TheSpoom]

Same deal. I never give a company access to withdraw anything from my bank account; that just seems dangerous...

"Oh, yes sir, we'll just take those $200 of long distance fees you didn't know you had from you right now!"

Push, not pull.

Re:Likewise...

[mzungu]

In Canada, the post office has a service called epost http://www.epost.ca/ that is offered fee of charge and is used by banks as the bill presentment layer. Once you setup your account, you either access it through your online banking application OR you can access the site directly.

Epost conserves your bills for 7 years online with an 'electronic postmark' for the date.

Haven't had a glitch yet.

Re:Likewise...

[RealGrouchy]

Aside from my ISP, which is a non-profit that charges my credit card a fixed amount each month, I pay my bills through my bank's website based on the PAPER bill I receive in the mail.

The only other automation is the monthly reminders I've set in my digital calendar.

- RG>

Re:Likewise...

[Spacejock]

I live in Australia, and ditto (except it's four major banks rather than five.)

I'm not up for letting companies take whatever they want. I mean, Australia's largest ISP still sends me a credit note for 1 cent every single bloody month, for two years now, no matter what I do to stop them. If they can't handle 1 cent properly, what's the odds they can sort out any irregularities in my everyday bills?

Re:Likewise...

[Anonymous Coward]

Likewise as well. All of my bills are either setup as a fixed prepay (hydro, mortgage, etc...) from my Canadian bank or as a payment from my credit card (phone).

The fixed payments are scheduled to expire in December each year - I review the bills during the Christmas break.

  ALL of my bills except for 2 credit cards are automatically paid. I review and pay the CC bills once a month. If I keeled over tomorrow, my house would run fine until the end of the year.

Re:Likewise...

[kent_eh]

Me too, except I don't do it on-line, I make the payments at the ATM (across the street from my office).
I'm quite confident in the state of security on my PC, but I have been surprised on occasion, so I still don't want my banking on my computer. (not that the banks haven't been caught with their pants down, but the less points of exposure the better)

Re:Likewise...

[spaceyhackerlady]

Same here. Once a month a push the payments out from my bank account. No hassle. Canada, BTW.

The only time I screwed up a payment was accidentally adding an extra zero to a credit card payment. I phoned the bank, pleaded stupidity, and they reversed the payment. Since I was buying a car in a couple of weeks anyway, I considered just leaving the overpayment on and putting the car on my credit card...

...laura

Re:Likewise...

[reydar]

And those five banks all have deposit insurance... How's all that banking competition going to help you out when your mickey mouse mom n'pop bank fails and doesn't have deposit insurance? Too many banks in the US has left them substantially worse off in this crisis.

Re:Likewise...

[morethanapapercert]

I had a bad experience once with RBC and a certain insurance company that uses a lizard as it's spokes-reptile. It seems they tried to pull the funds from my account two days before I got paid, *five* days before the date I'd agreed to pay them on. Did you know that with some of the sleazier insurance companies if you don't pay them even once; they deem your policy to be cancelled for non-payment and that there is a nasty little clause in your contract that essentially says you now owe them the entire balance of the policy, up front, right now and no kidding around? That's what happened to me. They made an error, attempted to take out one months premiums and when that bounced, two days later they tried to take out FIVE months worth of premiums. I found out about all of this the hard way, when my rent cheque bounced. Worse yet, while I was able to get the mouth-breathing micro-cephalic "customer service" rep to admit that they'd made mistake, he was adamant that they could not reinstate my policy once it was cancelled and in fact they were not willing to write me a new policy until the back debt from the existing policy was paid off. Needless to say, having my existing policy cancelled for non-payment made it that mush more expensive to get coverage elsewhere, but only for a year. I've stayed with my current provider ever since. Sure it costs me about 120 Can$ more every year, but it's worth it to avoid such fuck ups and to be able to say "fuck you G***0, fuck you..."

Re:Likewise...

[dossen]

Interesting world view. Are there really that many problems with automatic payments in the US? I've been paying almost all of my bills (including utilities, phone, magazines, and mortgage) automatically via the Direct Debit infrastructure in Denmark (Betalingsservice, http://www.betalingsservice.dk/en/) for 10 years or more (no, I'm not going to dig out old records to find out) - I can't recall one single problem, except for one or two times I forgot a bill that wasn't added to automatic payment. For me and 94% of the danish households (yes, they are a de facto monopoly run by the danish banks) this just works. I get a statement each month with the bills that will be payed in the next ~30 days, and if anything looks bad, I can block the payment before it ever goes anywhere - or get the problem fixed. This also means that I can depend on all of my bills being payed when I'm away on vacation - if I'm gone for 2-3-4 weeks, it's hard to make sure everything is payed, if I have to actively do something.

Re:Likewise...

[TheSpoom]

Fair enough, and that's your choice. I simply like having the fine control over my money that paying individual bills gives me.

Re:Likewise...

[devilspgd]

That's a perk of paying with credit cards, in the event of a dispute, you can initiate the refund process yourself, so the particular detail of who has the money right now is less important.

Re:Likewise...

[devilspgd]

It's not about payments being a problem, but rather, when a company makes a mistake.

The mistake can be part of the automatic payment process, or simply a billing error elsewhere.

Sign up for a new mobile phone contract that includes unlimited mobile to mobile minutes and the rep forgets to add the unlimited mobile to mobile code, you could have a $1000+ bill that drops to $40 once the error is fixed, but in the mean time, prying the $960 refund out of the company isn't always trivial, nor is it fun having your mortgage/rent and other bills decline in the mean time.

It's less of an issue with a credit card as it's easier for a merchant to issue a refund, plus the card holder has some control, whereas with a bank based withdrawal, you're more or less on your own.

Re:Likewise...

[devilspgd]

I've bumped into a few problems, mostly with companies that have their own online billing system as well as ePost.

Rogers is the worst for this, some of their features are free to eBilling customers, but not to ePost customers, but when you try to move from ePost to eBilling, the system refuses as you're already on a non-paper-billing method.

Shows why Slashdot is too Americocentric

[Anonymous Coward]

This article shows why Slashdot is far too Americocentric. I'm in the UK, and it's entertaining to read about Americans getting so riled up about corporate access to their bank accounts, and how it means they are somehow less free.

Here in the UK we have Direct Debit, by which we allow any company permission to take money from our account each month. It's underlined by the Direct Debit Guarantee, which means that if they take too much, I simply phone my bank and they give me the money back. No questions.

But I can't take part in this debate because, essentially, it's America only. The same applies to Slashdotters from all other parts of the world.

When is Slashdot going to realise (indeed, when is AMERICA going to realise) that there's an entire world outside of its borders?

Re:Shows why Slashdot is too Americocentric

[KGIII]

Oh we know but this is a primarily American site. That's like going to America and then complaining that we're too American. Your point would (is, really) valid on sites like theregister.co.uk but not here. Not all sites on the internet are going to cater to your whims, you can create your own or find a more local site if you want. That is the beauty of the web.

Re:Shows why Slashdot is too Americocentric

[Teun]

I think you see it to black&white, obviously /. was set up in the US but from a very early age there was a noticeable international input.

And with subjects like the present there is ample notification what it's about and who could be affected.

The Americans are stuck with their banking system the way we are stuck with slow pizza delivery but as you can see from the postings no one is stopped from making his own observations known, maybee with enough push from their customers some American banks might see an opportunity in enhancing their systems.

In the mean time I go to collect the pizza by myself and have a chat with the nice Italian lady in the restaurant.

Re:Shows why Slashdot is too Americocentric

[fbjon]

Here in the UK we have Direct Debit, by which we allow any company permission to take money from our account each month. It's underlined by the Direct Debit Guarantee, which means that if they take too much, I simply phone my bank and they give me the money back. No questions. When is Slashdot going to realise (indeed, when is AMERICA going to realise) that there's an entire world outside of its borders?

It's fine, really. The discussion really ought to be why the US is still behind in terms of these types of transactions and payments.

Re:Shows why Slashdot is too Americocentric

[ricegf]

The really funny thing about this AC rant is that about half of the posts on this article are non-US, usually starting with "well in MY country...". It's one of the most international discussions I've seen in a while. Awkward choice of article for an "Americocentric" rant.

(By the way, I haven't written a paper check in years - I don't believe our banking system is quite as antiquated as you Europeans keep insisting! ;-)

Re:Shows why Slashdot is too Americocentric

[YttriumOxide]

Oh we know but this is a primarily American site.

Everyone says that, but are there actually any stats to prove it? The site is RUN in the US, but I'd be interested to see the percentages of people that visit (nationality / locality). It seems I see a LOT of comments from people saying, "I'm from xyz-country and I think...". So, there may be a higher percentage of non-Americans than you think... (and no, server logs aren't helpful - we're all geeks here, and proxies are pretty common - I switch proxies a lot, and sometimes forget to turn off my proxy settings again after visiting a "can only access this from the US" site)

Re:Shows why Slashdot is too Americocentric

[YttriumOxide]

We're stuck with slow Pizza delivery? Where are you based? My local pizza place delivers in about 20 minutes most of the time here in Hannover, Germany. (pizza.de is a WONDERFUL website by the way - anyone in Germany, check it out! Enter your delivery details ONCE and then order from any Bringdienst in your locality without needing to pick up a phone, or give your details over again)

Re:Shows why Slashdot is too Americocentric

[dotancohen]

We experience cordless phone interference in my building. I had to wait for my neighbor to finish complaining to the police about our underfloor neighbour's music at 23:00 before I could order pizza last month. As that was an unusual hour for either of us to be using the phone, we started talking (in person, not on the line). It's a good thing that I got the larger pizza because the two of us finished it before the police arrived. That's cooking time, delivery AND time to eat.

Re:Shows why Slashdot is too Americocentric

[squizzar]

Slashdot poll time!

Re:Shows why Slashdot is too Americocentric

[KGIII]

Err... Go to the politics section of this site, look at the top... What flag do you see depicted?

Firewalls

[Detritus]

You might want to talk to your bank about their policy on overdrafts. I found out, the hard way, that when my checking account had insufficient funds to cover a check I had written, they just took the money from another account I had with the bank. They had never asked me for permission to do that.

The cause of the problem was a data entry error by the person who reads the amount of the check and prints it on the check with a MICR printer. They got the numbers right but moved the decimal point one place to the right. From there on, everything operated on automatic pilot, with no human intervention until I received my bank statement and spotted the problem. The bank's attitude was that the most efficient way of doing business was to automate all processing and decision-making, fixing any problems after the fact, if a customer complained. I closed all my accounts with that bank, which is now part of Bank of America.

Re:Firewalls

[Atlantis-Rising]

The best way to deal with these policies, I have found, is to issue a written direction to the bank and hand it to your manager as well as mailing it to the bank's legal services division.

I have, for example, a written direction on file with my bank that they are to refuse any charges that would overdraft my account, regardless of whether they are preauthorized or not.

If the bank fails to uphold my explicit written instructions, they become responsible for the results.

Re:Firewalls

[Aerynvala]

I like this idea tremendously. I'll have to see if that'll work with my credit union account.

Re:Firewalls

[networkzombie]

They had never asked me for permission to do that.

Bullshit. I used to work for BofA and they explicitly state that they will do that. If they did not and it actually happened they would be getting sued left and right. Read the fine print. Banks rarely do anything without discloser. They have many lawyers just to write that fine print.

Re:Firewalls

[JohnFluxx]

What exactly would you rather they did? Have a second person double check the amounts on the check? It seems very easy for that person to make the same mistake as well

Re:Firewalls

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a really good idea. But does it actually work? Is it legally enforceable if they forget your request or even ignore it? Which bank is it?

Re:Firewalls

[Detritus]

When the check processing computer detected a huge overdraft, it should have punted the transaction to a bank officer for investigation. It would have been immediately obvious to a human that the amount of the transaction did not match the amount written on the check. A human could have also picked up a telephone and called me to help resolve the problem.

Re:Firewalls

[Detritus]

As I previously stated, it was a bank which is now part of Bank of America.

When I later investigated the legal aspects of the issue, I found out that the bank was probably not liable for their actions, since the law gives them a great deal of freedom on how to deal with a customer overdraft. The fact that a customer's funds are split among multiple accounts does not prevent the bank from taking them to honor a check.

Re:Firewalls

[JohnFluxx]

What's huge for you may be a tiny amount to someone else.

I like your idea, and I don'tthink it's impossible to implement, but I don't think it would be trivial either.

Re:Firewalls

[Anonymous Coward]

A human could have also picked up a telephone and called me to help resolve the problem.

I like your idea, and I don't think it's impossible to implement, but I don't think it would be trivial either.

I have had my credit union do exactly that: pick up a phone and call me so that I could cover a cheque that would otherwise have bounced. That's one of the reasons that I use a credit union rather than a bank.

If you need a reason not to trust them

[billster0808]

Just look at Dreamhost. In January someone typed in the wrong number, and accidentally billed everyone for all of 2008 at once. Ended up overcharging 7.5 million bucks from one bad keystroke. Oh, and then they joked about it in their blog. Gotta love waking up to a surprise 120 dollar charge, and the company just laughs it off.

Re:If you need a reason not to trust them

[KGIII]

People using Dreamhost are idiots in the first place. There's no way to get what you've "paid for" from them, ever.

Re:If you need a reason not to trust them

[YttriumOxide]

I wish all of my billers would LET me pay a whole years payments in one go - so much less to think about from day to day then...

Re:If you need a reason not to trust them

[dotancohen]

I cannot believe that they had the balls to begin with saying:

Ha, the joke is on you!

I'm not a Dreamhost customer, but now I never will be. Fucking up is human. Fucking up and then telling the customers that the joke is on them is.. is... I don't even have a word for it.

Re:If you need a reason not to trust them

[Anonymous Coward]

Call them and ask. I have been able to pay in advance and then receive monthly bills which reflect my remaining "credit". When the balance actually goes in their favor, I send another check that is sized to approximately cover 6 months or a year. Saves a lot of hassle/checks/postage and the companies only have a limited amount of my money (in the case of a dispute). These days when checking interest is so low, I don't worry about losing a small amount of interest.

I don't

[mosb1000]

I pay my bills online every month. That way I know exactly what I am paying. It's not that hard. The automatic payment thing is scary to me, because it takes control out of my hands. The only bill I pay automatically is my gym membership, because they wouldn't have it any other way. But at least that bill is the same every month.

I'd hate to pay my power bill automatically because it would have been a total surprise to me last month when it jumped from $50 to $160.

Re:I don't

[butlerdi]

You could always just pay for the year/Quarter etc in advance and have done with it.

Re:I don't

[jroysdon]

I concur regarding automatic payment. It takes me less than 30 minutes to pay my bills. I've got all the websites bookmarked, and Mozilla remembers the passwords for about half (all of them are stored in a secure text file that I just keep open when paying bills so I can quickly cut-n-paste the rest). I have 2 local paper bills (water/sewer/trash, and electric). The rest come in as email reminders, and worst case I have Gnucash to see what bill is coming up when (and to track assets, etc.). I review each bill to make sure it's not got some stupid new charges - for credit cards I just download all the charges into Gnucash and mark the categories that don't auto-match. I print out a paper copy and "print to pdf" of each bill if there isn't a "download as pdf" option (a few don't have that, like Citibank - or that don't work right and make you request a pdf, and then never have it ready for download). Then I pay the bill via CheckFree (free via my credit union), and print a paper copy and pdf of the confirmation number. Then I pop into Gnucash the pay date I scheduled, what the due date was, and edit the amount.

The only thing that would be cooler is if I could schedule the payment via Gnucash. When I used to use Quicken and when BankAmerica didn't charge me $12/month for it, I used to do that (pay it automatically via Quicken), and never access the bank website. Downside is that I didn't have electronic/paper copies of the transaction numbers unless I went online to get them. I like my credit union much better with CheckFree. BankAmerica used to withdrawl the funds 2-4 business days before the payee even deposited the check (I think they've changed that) - which had me dropping of a paper rent check on the 1st since payday way on the 1st as well. My credit union never removes the money until after the funds hit the payee (after the check is deposited if it is a paper check), and only allows the funds to go after the check pay date (so even if a check arrives "early" they cannot get the funds until the pay date).

One advantage I have over you is that both my local electric (MID) and gas (PG&E) offer "balanced payment plans" so that my bill is the same (so long as my usage stays mostly the same each month compared to the last year). It's always a pain when moving to a new place for the first year since you don't know what to expect, but after a year both bills tell you the usage amount last year for that month (so you can trim things if you need to). The downside is that in the summer I still pay for a gas bill, even though I haven't used a therm of gas in the last 4 months - but it's like a free credit account with the gas company, especially during the winter months when things spike - next month I'll have a $0 balance, but then we'll start using gas as things start to cool down.

Re:I don't

[Anonymous Coward]

My roommate had his gym membership on automatic. He canceled, and a year down the road, that gym got bought out. Someone fucked up, and they decided he never canceled. They billed him the entire year's worth and then some in one fell swoop. Since it was so long ago, he no longer had any proof of canceling, and the gym and the bank wouldn't do anything about it. He missed a quarter of school because it happened right when that bill was coming due.

Anyone who ONLY accepts automatic debits from your account are the sleaziest of them all. I don't have any like that currently, but if I did, it would be worth it to me to have those come out of a separate account at a separate bank that only holds enough to cover what those bills should be.

I write checks.

[jcr]

I've got a printer that does just fine feeding checks and envelopes.

-jcr

Well

[mikkelm]

I'm using automated payment.

To be honest, I don't see what the fuss is about. If I see a charge I don't agree with, I have it reversed, and confront the billing party, though that's yet to happen. I don't see how anything short of a good portion of cynicism could keep people from using this. I haven't done anything to pay any utility, telco or ISP bill for over a year. Even my rent is handled automatically. Saves me a lot of trouble.

Re:Well

[Grave]

It's not as easy here in the US to have a charge reversed, and if that charge causes you an overdraft fee, you can be really left out to dry in the meantime.

Re:Well

[mikkelm]

It's not a universal constant that reversing charges has to be difficult, and nor is it that you should incur overdraft fees that aren't reimbursed when a charge is reversed. It's down to the banks to handle the practical implementation in a way that consumers would agree with, but that does nothing to change the evidence suggesting that the concept itself, when properly implemented, is very successful.

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

I could imagine that even the european banks that do currently handle this the proper way (i.e. carge reversal within 6 weeks without stating any reason whatsoever etc.) if they were not forced to do so by law.
Time to lobby your politicians for some consumer friendly legislation.

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

If you've never had to reverse a charge or confront the billing party, what makes you so confident that it's as easy as your bank's marketing department tells you?

Everything is convenient and easy until it isn't. What's the potential cost to you of your landlord accidentally withdrawing 10x rent even once? What if it takes 30 or even 90 days to resolve?

Re:Well

[YttriumOxide]

What's the potential cost to you of your landlord accidentally withdrawing 10x rent even once?

Very little - it'd just mean I don't have to worry about rent for most of the next year. That'd be quite nice.

Re:Well

[Dogtanian]

What's the potential cost to you of your landlord accidentally withdrawing 10x rent even once?

Very little - it'd just mean I don't have to worry about rent for most of the next year. That'd be quite nice.

Nice for you that you've got enough liquid capital sloshing about that this wouldn't be a problem. Though since it was implicit in the original poster's comment that this *would* be a problem for most people, your answer missed the point- intentionally, I assume, so that you could make a smartass answer that was both smug and pat.

Anyway, if you're that well off, it'd probably make more financial sense to simply buy the place you're staying in.

Re:Well

[YttriumOxide]

Nice for you that you've got enough liquid capital sloshing about that this wouldn't be a problem. Though since it was implicit in the original poster's comment that this *would* be a problem for most people

I make around 2750 euro a month after tax, of which I can save about 1250 a month, and pay 350 euro a month in rent. Having a spare 3500 to pay 10 months in advance is hardly a big deal. And I do NOT consider myself to be especially well off - I would consider that "most people" are probably in a similar situation. Anyone who does NOT have enough disposable income to afford 10 months rent in advance really needs to find somewhere cheaper to live.

Anyway, if you're that well off, it'd probably make more financial sense to simply buy the place you're staying in.

Hmmm... I am in no way interested in buying a crappy little apartment in downtown Hannover.

your answer missed the point- intentionally, I assume, so that you could make a smartass answer that was both smug and pat.

No, I did not miss the point - I simply do not accept that "most people" can not afford 10 months of rent.

Re:Well

[mikkelm]

Conversely, what makes you so confident that I'm going by what the bank tells me? I'm basing this off of a situation my sister was in, in which she was charged an obscene amount of money by her telco by mistake. It took one business day to have the charge reversed, and she incurred no fees or expenses resulting from it.

Re:Well

[Dogtanian]

I [..] pay 350 euro a month in rent.

That's very cheap- in plenty of countries/cities there's no way in hell you'd get an apartment for anything like that.

Having a spare 3500 to pay 10 months in advance is hardly a big deal.

Really? Not everyone is in the position where they have that much money saved up beforehand. Not everyone lives in a city where they can get a passable apartment for 350 euro a month.

And even if they did have that money saved up as a "safety buffer", most people would not consider it acceptable that this buffer was gone just because some landlord had fucked up. I mean, seriously, you'd be quite happy if this happened to you?

And I do NOT consider myself to be especially well off - I would consider that "most people" are probably in a similar situation.

I would say that you're assuming too much- in particular that everyone is like you.

Anyone who does NOT have enough disposable income to afford 10 months rent in advance really needs to find somewhere cheaper to live.

So suppose someone's been looking for a job for some time, their savings have gone down quite a bit, and they finally get one in- say- London, where rent is hideously expensive. They should go live miles away, even if it means that they can't take the job, because they don't happen to have ten months rent (at London rates) in the bank? Yeah, that makes sense.

Hmmm... I am in no way interested in buying a crappy little apartment in downtown Hannover.

Which I take to mean that you're living in one? So given the choice, you'd rather pay rent on one- money down the drain- than own it, and then sell it later on?

No, I did not miss the point - I simply do not accept that "most people" can not afford 10 months of rent.

Then you didn't think things through very well.

It's done everywhere else, so why not in the US?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since I moved out of the US, I have paid all my bills online. Outdated methods of paying bills with paper checks do not exist here, like in the US. I've been paying bills online for years now and have never even once had a single issue. And I've never heard of anyone having problems here either, outside of single time when a fake bank website was set up and caught a few people. Anyone with even a remote knowledge of the web would have known it was a fake site though and it was shut down pretty quickly.

I don't get this whole anti-online payment mentality in the US. As long as your bank has the proper security in place, there is no issue. I would not hesitate to say that more fraud occurs giving CC numbers over the phone or sending payments through the mail.

What kind of payment automation to use?

[RWarrior(fobw)]

None, for several reasons.

1) Billing errors occur. Don't allow them to take your money until you've verified the bill is correct. Otherwise, even if they correct the bill, you will never, ever get a refund.

2) Balance errors occur. Most banks will slap you for a $30-$40 NSF fee if someone sends an ACH debit transaction that's in excess of your available funds, whether or not they actually pay the ACH. Further, many banks play games about how fast they credit ACH deposits (like your direct deposited paycheck), or regular deposits (like your paper paycheck), in an effort to increase the likelihood you'll have an overdraft. What's more, when you swipe your debit card at a merchant, they can place a hold on your funds even if the final charge isn't anywhere close to the actual transaction amount. (Example: Buy $20 in gas at your local pump and find they "authorized" your card for $75. The bank holds the $75 for anywhere from 3 to 30 days. If you try to spend any of the $55 difference, they slap you with an overdraft fee because the funds were not "available," even though they're still "yours.")

3) Emergencies occur. If I need to take my kid to the ER and shell a large amount of money so that he'll have an eye tomorrow, I shouldn't have to call the electric company to get them to stop the payment so I can do it.

Most banks allow online bill payment, and many don't even charge a fee to use it. The good ones will even present my remembered vendors in a list, and allow me to simply enter the amount I want to pay, the date I want to pay, and click "send." Automatic payment benefits only the vendors and the banks, never the customer. I do not exist for a company's benefit; they exist for mine. Just because they prefer to swipe my account on the due date doesn't mean it's to my benefit to let them. They can take a paper check (or a CheckFree deposit) when I'm damned well good and ready to send it to them, and not a day before.

Re:What kind of payment automation to use?

[wdsci]

Actually I beg to differ - if you're relying on a transaction clearing on a specific date in the future, or if the ability to cancel payment on an electric bill makes the difference between being able to pay for an ER visit or not, you're probably not practicing good money management. I try to use automatic payment whenever possible, since it's one less thing for me to remember and to do every month. However, I do make sure to get some kind of confirmation message every time one of these automatic bill payments is posted to my account; that way I can keep my own independent records of what transactions should be occurring. If my records don't match the bank's records at any time, it's easy to investigate and find out what the difference is.

Also, for the record, ACH transactions uniformly take 3 days to clear, at least from one institution to another. Depending on the type of transaction, a bank may add an additional day for internal processing, but still it's usually fairly predictable how long the transaction should take to clear. Although if you're relying on money coming into your account (or going out of it) on a certain specific date in the future, that's another symptom of bad money management. My principle: do not spend money until I've actually verified that it's in my account. (For automatic bills, I'll usually make a transfer using online banking a few days in advance, enough time to try other avenues - i.e. make an ATM deposit - if something goes wrong.)

Re:What kind of payment automation to use?

[JaredOfEuropa]

To be honest, it's your banks that are the problem, not direct debit. Many people in W-Europe happily pay pretty much all of their recurring bills with direct debit.

1) Billing errors occur. Don't allow them to take your money until you've verified the bill is correct. Otherwise, even if they correct the bill, you will never, ever get a refund.

An error occurs, I call the bank and reverse the transaction. Now the company that screwed up will have to call me and ask me why I did not pay my bill.

2) Balance errors occur. Most banks will slap you for a $30-$40 NSF fee if someone sends an ACH debit transaction that's in excess of your available funds, whether or not they actually pay the ACH.

That's insane. Banks here will either just complete the transaction and charge you interest for overdraft (15% apr or so). That amounts to a tiny amount of interest in most cases, since the overdraft limit usually is around â1000-2000. In other cases, the bank will just cancel the transaction, and again the billing company will call and ask you what the problem is.

3) Emergencies occur. If I need to take my kid to the ER and shell a large amount of money so that he'll have an eye tomorrow, I shouldn't have to call the electric company to get them to stop the payment so I can do it.

Again, one phone call to my bank fixes everything, no questions asked. besides, I'd hate to think solving such an emergency depended on me having one utility bill's worth of money, or even a paycheck's worth. That's why I have a revolving credit line, which costs me nothing until I actually use it in an emergency. I suppose people in the States use credit cards for that.

The real bottom line is: I do not have any experience with all of the above, because in the 25 or so years I am using direct debit, not a single error has occurred.

Re:What kind of payment automation to use?

[isorox]

3) Emergencies occur. If I need to take my kid to the ER and shell a large amount of money so that he'll have an eye tomorrow, I shouldn't have to call the electric company to get them to stop the payment so I can do it.

What kind of a fucked up country do you live in?

Re:What kind of payment automation to use?

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Billing errors occur. Don't allow them to take your money until you've verified the bill is correct. Otherwise, even if they correct the bill, you will never, ever get a refund.

That's a sign of defective legislation. It should your bank's problem to reverse the charge. That's how it's handled in europe.

2) Balance errors occur. Most banks will slap you for a $30-$40 NSF fee if someone sends an ACH debit transaction that's in excess of your available funds, whether or not they actually pay the ACH.

Another sign of defective legislation. In europe, banks charge the party that attempts to charge your account. The fee is fixed at ~ US$ 10.

Further, many banks play games about how fast they credit ACH deposits (like your direct deposited paycheck), or regular deposits (like your paper paycheck), in an effort to increase the likelihood you'll have an overdraft.

No, they do that so they can put the interest for the time the money is essentially nowhere into their own pockets.

3) Emergencies occur. If I need to take my kid to the ER and shell a large amount of money so that he'll have an eye tomorrow, I shouldn't have to call the electric company to get them to stop the payment so I can do it.

Now that's truely mindboggling. Do you really have to pay cash for ER visits? Aside from the fact that any emergency should be handled covered by your health insurance, I'd expect you should just be sent the bill for optional extras (a single room in the hospital) or elective treatments, and you should have 1 or 2 months to pay them. Again, that's how it is handled in europe. If you burn money at a reate that you can't cover within 2 months while still paying for your recurring costs, you're doing something wrong.

Re:What kind of payment automation to use?

[Anonymous Coward]

In Germany, when "Emergencies occur", your insurance pays (so you don't have to cancel anything). Point 1) and 2), however, are pretty common.

Re:What kind of payment automation to use?

[Anonymous Coward]

In just about every first world country except the US, when "Emergencies occur", something happens so you can get the care you need

Fixed that for you.

Re:What kind of payment automation to use?

[plasmacutter]

i'm sorry, but I don't feel like going through 60+ days of arbitration just to get back money some company stole from my account when I could have just as easily refused to pay the bill and told them to fix their error or face the lawyers, and kept my money..

Most banks will not reverse the transaction. Credit card companies will dispute it, but it has been 40 days before I received my funds.

What planet do you live in with overdraft fees? In the US you'll be lucky to see 25 dollars flat per transaction.

Re:What kind of payment automation to use?

[inKubus]

You need to make a friend at the bank. That's the only secret you need to know. If you have a personal bank who you are sociable with, they will take care of you. IF you're one of those self-important dicks who believes the customer is always right, no one will ever go out of their way to help you. The banking world is run by people. End of story.

Re:What kind of payment automation to use?

[Myopic]

Most banks allow online bill payment, and many don't even charge a fee to use it. The good ones will even present my remembered vendors in a list, and allow me to simply enter the amount I want to pay, the date I want to pay, and click "send."

My bank (er, credit union) does exactly as you described. Are there banks that don't have that? I mean, today in 2008? If so, it's high time those customers find a new bank.

I did this once and stopped it the first month

[HomerJ]

When I moved into my last apartment I decided to do the auto bill pay. I'm just lazy with paying things and sometimes I'll forget to pay something.

Well, for those of you that pay a gas bill, you know they bill you an "estimated" rate, and then the actual the next month. Well, for a small apartment who's gas bill was maybe $20 for a month, they decided to take out a $320 "estimated" payment. They had no idea why it was so out of whack with the actual, but it was what it was. Normally you just send in an "estimated" payment as well, they just readjust your bill, and send you the actual the next month. Well, with the automatic payment, the bill said $320, and that's what they took.

It ended up just being that I told them to keep $320, and I just wasn't going to pay my bill for like 18 months. Which was fine with them. But they never actually fixed the estimation. The next bill, I had a $300 credit, following I owed $300, next month I had a $280 credit, etc. etc.

Long story short, you don't know what these people are going to charge you with. They take money first, and then just deal with you later if you don't like it. I'd rather pay a late fee, than deal with a CSR rep on why they took too much money.

Re:I did this once and stopped it the first month

[echucker]

Many gas companies also have an option to force a meter read each month. Sounds like it would have been prime time to check off that box.

Re:I did this once and stopped it the first month

[marcop]

So they got to keep your money for 16 months and collect the interest on it for their mistake? Sounds like they won to me.

Re:I did this once and stopped it the first month

[Anonymous Coward]

Long story short, you don't know what these people are going to charge you with. They take money first, and then just deal with you later if you don't like it. I'd rather pay a late fee, than deal with a CSR rep on why they took too much money.

At least in the US, Regulation E requires that the biller provide notice of the amount of an upcoming payment if it differs from month to month (as utility bill undoubtedly will). This notice is must be sent so that you have it 10 days prior to the bill's due date.

I'm not defending the gas company (I've had them hit me with "estimated" bills before, but not to the extent it sounds like you have), but let's not contribute to the vast amount of unreasoning fear and outright lies regarding direct debit being spread in this thread. The fact is, you WILL know what "these people" will be charging you from month to month. If you choose do ignore your mail, that's you're problem, and not a problem with the system.

Direct debit, e-billing etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have something of a system set up (although I don't follow it that strict):

1) Direct debit (company can withdraw the money automatically from my account): I use this for recurring, fixed payments (ADSL connection, bi-annual insurance payments etc.)
2) E-billing (I receive the bill electronically to my online bank, where I can approve or deny it): this goes well for monthly bills with varying totals, such as credit card bills. I can also change the payment total if I want to e.g. pay less than the full amount to the credit company.
3) Traditional paper bill: for magazine subscriptions (gives me a chance to think if I want to continue subscribing) and the rest of the miscellaneous billing

multiple accounts

[Anonymous Coward]

I used multiple methods of auto-pay. However, I have a 2nd checking account for auto pay purposes (and a third one for online gambling). I like being able to turn things off at the source if something goes wrong.

None

[steelcobra]

There's no reason whatsoever to give billers access to my money when I can just pay them online. It's not as if it's that hard to remember who I have to pay the 1st and 15th of every month.

Hmm...

[Beefslaya]

How can I be out of money? I still have all these checks?

Interesting update...

[fortunato]

My favorite part, if you've RTFA to the very end, is this:

UPDATE In last weeks column on socially responsible investing, I mentioned an exchange-traded fund called the HealthShares Emerging Cancer Fund. What I failed to notice, because the company hadnt bothered informing potential investors on the funds own home page, was that the day before my deadline the company announced it was shutting down the fund in September.

Now here is someone you should definitely listen to.

Re:Interesting update...

[julesh]

My favorite part, if you've RTFA to the very end[...]

I wish I could. But NYT seems to have deleted my account with them (the username and password from my autologin aren't working any more) and when I try to register again I get a page that says "Please check the highlighted areas below" and then shows a form field that is correctly filled in. :(

CC Dedicated to automated bills.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have one Credit Card that is dedicated to just utility/reoocuring monthly charges. I review the account often. since it is a CC and not my Checking account I get the added protection that the CC offers. I have my Checking account setup to send the CC half of the total months charges every time I get paid (Biweekly). Using this method I have saved MANY over draft charges that I had previously using mailed Checks. Plus it eliminates deadlines. I don't have to worry about there being money in my checking account on a certain date.. it's all covered by the CC and I just send them their piece of my money when I have it, not when they want it/need it. There are no interest charges because of the grace period since I leave no balance. Also since I'm on average bililng for many, it makes budgeting a breeze. Since I have Direct Deposit, everything pretty much takes care of itself. Furthermore, I have canceled all paper billing and receive everything in email so that there is less chance of identity theft. The only bill I've been unsuccessful at this process is the City water bill. I can pay via CC, but not automatically.

Automated payments destroy jobs

[Skapare]

A friend of mine told me that many of her colleagues at work have lost their jobs as a result of automated payment systems. And she's fearing her job might be next. She's a debt collector.

Re:Automated payments destroy jobs

[sydbarrett74]

And this is bad how? I'm sure buggy-whip and horseshoe makers bemoaned the loss of their jobs with the advent of that new-fangled motorcar gadget. I'm sure those debt collectors can adapt.

Re:Automated payments destroy jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

I think this is suppose to be a joke, but I don't think it's funny.

Re:Automated payments destroy jobs

[mr_matticus]

That's the point. OP was engaging in what is called a rhetorical style in conveying his narrative tale.

More troubling than your failure to grasp that, though, is that damned buggy-whip example. Is it a shibboleth for some underground Slashdot group? Because it's not like there was ever a large buggy-whip industry in the first place. As a tale of adaptation, it's lacking. And somehow, no one uses it to talk about American programmers adapting to outsourcing by finding another job or lowering their salary expectations. I guess it only works one way.

Re:Automated payments destroy jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

If she wasn't a lowly number cruncher which has to make XXX number of phonecalls per day, then she wouldn't be worried. Learn a skill which can't easily be replaced by an automated system, increase your value, climb the corporate ladder to success.

Btw, I'm seeing a ton of more work in my field. Developing, installing & maintaining automated payment systems.

Re:Automated payments destroy jobs

[sydbarrett74]

No, it applies equally as well in that situation, as well.

Silly me

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought this story was going to be about losing money in vending machines.

Re:Silly me

[Anonymous Coward]

Having read some of the comments, it seems to me that the banks own these vending machines called Direct Debit Systems and their customers occasionally lose money in them. So yeah, you're right.

Own bank's bill-pay system

[LoadWB]

I use my own bank's bill-pay system, because they take all responsibility. If it says a check is to be to my electric company by the 15th and it isn't, THE BANK calls the electric company and explains the situation, then deposits any late fees into my account.

In the past using my billers' systems has been a nightmare or two.

One double-billed me one month and would not refund the second billing because my next bill would be due by the time the return would process. The bank could not reverse the charge because the payment came in with my authorization.

I've had more than one bill me too early.

And recently my cell phone bill was over $500 in error two months in a row because of a missing billing code on my data plan. All sorts of fecal matter would have hit the fan if those payments had been automatically debited.

And other incidents of which I cannot recall the details.

Unless the biller is willing to take responsibility for errors on its end and IMMEDIATELY return money taken in error, as well as cover whatever fees or damages are incurred due to the error, payments come via bank bill-pay only. And if that is not acceptable, then the account gets closed and I move on.

How is it done abroad?

[atomico]

It might be of some help to know how is it handled in other countries...
Where I live (Spain), direct debit has been the rule since long ago: almost everybody does it this way. Utilities (electricity, telephony, gas, mobile phone), insurance, mortgage, all charge your bank account monthly or bimonthly. It is convenient (especially for them) and problems are not too common, although they exist. But then you can dispute the charges or go to the consumer protection office.
Banks try to push you to do it this way: most of them only let you pay your bills only one hour per day (for example, from 10 am to 11 am only).

My personal take on all this: I like it this way. As I said before, problems are rare; it is far more usual to know someone that has had his credit card number stolen than to know a case of having trouble with direct debit. And to have something less to care about is worth it. Anyway, most of the time the bill gets to you by mail two or three weeks before the charge is made, so you can check it and have some time to fix the problems (good luck with that though).
Overdrafts are allowed, but they are easy to avoid. Actually, banks like so much this system that they will equate having this kind of automated bill payment with being a regular, good customer: in most "fidelization" promotions, they ask you to have two or three bills paid through them.

Re:How is it done abroad?

[joost]

As a European (.nl) what I find the most interesting aspect of this whole thread is that all European countries are pretty much the same in this regard. North or South, everyone uses direct debit and everyone's happy to. While in the US, you would be foolish to use it. People still use checks there, can you imagine? I haven't seen one of those in over 10 years.

I guess it reinforces my happiness with Europe in general. Although the food in Spain is better...

Risk management 101

[macraig]

If only 38 of every 100,000 people fall victim to this sort of mistake, I suspect that I'm more likely to fall victim to a car accident than this. It figures that some people might freak out at any suggestion that they give up even the slightest degree of personal control (read: micromanagement).

I use my Bank's automated bill payment system. I lose some small degree of control, but in fact that is indeed the entire point of the exercise, n'est-ce pas? I don't want that monthly control of those bills nor the time and mental distraction that the process of paying them would require. The bank's system handles it one of two ways, depending upon whether a relationship with the payee exists: either it's transmitted electronically or an actual check is cut in my name and mailed in advance of the due date. I retain full control to monitor, modify, or cancel those payments at any time; I have limits set on them to prevent unexpectedly large bills from causing overdrafts, and I receive e-mail reminders for every single one.

I frankly don't see the problem, done the way I'm doing it. I agree that allowing direct drafts or using credit cards are bad ideas, but only an ignorant uninformed person would consider or agree to such mechanisms.

Re:Risk management 101

[Dogtanian]

I use my Bank's automated bill payment system. I lose some small degree of control, but in fact that is indeed the entire point of the exercise, n'est-ce pas?

No, it's not. The point is to automate all the tedious crap that you would normally do anyway. There's no reason that this should involve loss of control if they give you the opportunity to change this or revert to doing it manually at any point.

MyCheckFree ftw!

[sydbarrett74]

I use MyCheckFree.com -- completely free, no monthly fee like a lot of those consolidated bill payment services. My only complaint in five years of using them is that more companies don't offer payment through it.

Re:MyCheckFree ftw!

[idiotnot]

A lot more used to, up until probably about when you signed up. Three of the five bills I paid on there quit using them within about six months of each other. Not sure if it was something where they raised their rates for the billers or what.

Nowadays, I pretty much pay everything online in some way or another. The only automatic payment I have is my car note, which is really the only thing I do though an old bank account. I transfer over enough money to cover it every month.

My new bank is pretty good about dealing with bills that don't even really offer online payments. They actually cut paper checks to my doctor, dentist, and landlord. Pretty much everything else I set to charge automatically to my AmEx, which I pay online about every ten days.

Whos money is at risk from mistakes?

[thogard]

I work in the auto payment insdustry. The number of errors are small but they do exist. Sometimes someone submits the same batch twice or the account numbers get converted into floating point and back.

Remember that if you give a company your credit card number and they screw up, they take a banks money. If they screw up with direct debt, they take your money.

Why is this news?

[houghi]

Is this not something that is done by default in the USofA?

In Belgium this is very standard practice. Especially for fixed amounts, like your provider or electricity. It is also done with varable bills, like your credit card. In the Netherlands, you can even give somebody an allowed one time to do this for purchases over the phone. Something that is not possible i Belgium.

Stopping this is done almost immidiate and I yet have to hear about big problems. Smaller problems exist, but those get payed back almost immidiatly. Usualay you pay about 1EUR less if you use it. The reason it is cheaper is because it is also cheaper for the company. One of the high costs of a company is to get money from people who pay too late or not at all, even though they have a signed contract to do so.

The company needs to send two reminders and then aquire a billcollector. And all of this just because the person forgot to pay. People who are unwilling to pay won't be using this anyway, so it is so people don't get charged for late payment, while the company has less work looking for those 25EUR you need to pay each month for your internet.

I am happily using it for many things where I would be willing to pay monthly anyway and the moment I want it to stop, I do so online and the automatic transfer is stopped. So they not so much take what they want (exept for the credit card company) they get what I give them.

The credit card company also can not withdraw more then is on my account and in Belgium everybody has two accounts. One davings and one to use with others.

I don't use any form of automation.

[Anonymous Coward]

I receive paper statements, which includes a bill. When I receive said bill, I fill out a cheque and mail the payment.

It's that simple.

Why do I use this method? Because it's been established as the "norm" historically, and it also provides a hard paper trail for any billing transactions. "Actually sir, you owe us another US$35.49..." "Hmm, not according to this paper bill you sent me last month" "Oh, I'm sorry, you're correct".

The only caveats to classic paper billing are: 1) forgetting to send your payment, and 2) postal system goes fuck-all and /dev/null's your postal mail. #1 has happened to everyone, because we're human. #2 has happened to me a couple of times, and when reported, the postal service was quite concerned.

I'll trust my own ability to pay my bills over a computer or automated system any day. It amazes me how many people rely on automated electronic billing. All it takes is one fuck-up and your entire bank account or credit card could be out of funds. Is it really worth the risk?

More Paytrust info - LOTS OF DETAILS

[Anonymous Coward]

I was an early adopter with Paytust (back when they were PayMybills.com). They were bought out by Intuit. I'm still with them today. Here's why:

BORING: Yes, you can do the simple bill payments that you can do with many bank accounts now. You can send a check to a name or an address for a certain amount, perhaps against a specific account number. They'll put everything together and mail out the payment for you.

EXCITING: What makes this service shine is bill RECEIVING. You got bills that come to your house? You change your billing address. You give them a special PO BOX # that is provided with your account. Paytrust will scan the bill in as PDF format. They'll pre-populate the bill's data into your account, matching it with one of your known billers, and doing the data entry for the minimum amount due, the total amount due, and the due date.

In my case, I still micromanage. I get an email from them saying that some new bills came in (and provides the basic details of the bill that I just mentioned). So, most of the heavy lifting is done for you so that when it comes time to pay the bill, it is just 'click a checkbox', 'click a button', and 'click a button to confirm'.

You can set up autopayment rules (which I haven't done) to auto-pay a bill if it is under a certain amount, or to pay off the full balance, or pay against the minimum due, or whatever. I know that they've got some flexibility there.

They're got some added protection for detecting duplicate bills (more than 1 bill in a billing cycle), and also, more importantly, the 'missing bill', to let you know that normally you receive a monthly bill from a company, but nothing ever came.

ORGANIZING: If you read between the lines to see the net effect of all of this, here it is. Basically, I log onto their website. The main screen tells me the bills that I have yet to pay. The bills that I have paid will drop of of that screen. So I instantly know, at any given time, what has or hasn't been paid. Which is so useful to me, I haven't had a late payment on anything since I adopted their service. That has contributed to my credit score reaching a very nice level (and my avoiding late penalties, and punitive APR increases).

RESEARCH/HISTORY: A scan (again, PDF) is kept online for a year (after which, they offer archival CDROMS. So you can go back and, say, figure out when a charge was put on, or when you interest rate changed, or how much electricity you used a year ago. Totally worth its weight in gold in doing the kind of research that only the most organized freak could do before.

You've also got a good summary screen of every payment you've ever made through the system, so you can find out, say, what were the last 10 payments I made to Chase?

Small unexpected but appreciated service: if my credit card company sends me a credit card, or I get a really weird non-bill letter (that isn't spam), they'll forward it to my real address.

So, I hope I don't come across as a shill for these guys, but I'm absolutely a great fan. Their service has really saved me so much time, money, and frustration over the years. One of the best kept secrets of the web, IMHO.

Re:More Paytrust info - LOTS OF DETAILS

[ptbarnett]

I was an early adopter with Paytust (back when they were PayMybills.com). They were bought out by Intuit.

A clarification: PayMyBills.com was originally a separate company. They were acquired by Paytrust.com in September 2000.

I started with PayMyBills. I abandoned them and switched to Paytrust after PayMyBills got behind on processing incoming bills and were making late payments.

Intuit acquired Paytrust in late 2004.

Re:More Paytrust info - LOTS OF DETAILS

[llamalad]

I started with PayMyBills. I abandoned them and switched to Paytrust after PayMyBills got behind on processing incoming bills and were making late payments.

Yep. I used paymybills.com too, and loved them- right up until my car insurance got canceled because they didn't process my bills for two months. It was a really great situation, because, not being bills, they also didn't 'process' the cancellation warnings and notices that they surely received. I really like the idea of 'outsourcing' bill paying but I don't trust anyone to manage it properly except myself.

Re:More Paytrust info - LOTS OF DETAILS

[ddillman]

They were bought out by Intuit.

There's a prime reason to NOT use Paytrust. I refuse to purchase or use anything associated with Intuit to the best of my ability, including tax software. They've shown consistent total disregard for customers' concerns for far too long for me to continue to patronize them.

Re:More Paytrust info - LOTS OF DETAILS

[whoop]

Their page says they will cover things if their service is late. Did you take that up with them? Looking at the service (and several raves people give it here), I'd be curious how well they handle problems like that.

Re:More Paytrust info - LOTS OF DETAILS

[ptbarnett]

I really like the idea of 'outsourcing' bill paying but I don't trust anyone to manage it properly except myself.

It's certainly not "fire and forget". I monitor bill payments with a calendar in Quicken, and reconcile my checking account automatically (online) a couple of times a week. So, I recognize a missing payment before it becomes a problem, and make a manual payment if necessary.

Since moving to Paytrust, the problems has always been the biller. At one point, a company actually cut off my service for non-payment, and it was Paytrust that provided the proof that the bill was paid via EFT.

Re:More Paytrust info - LOTS OF DETAILS

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm glad someone else mentioned PayTrust. I've been using them for about 7 years and love the service. It's especially nice when you're traveling, you can just do your normal bill-paying routine from anywhere.

Re:More Paytrust info - LOTS OF DETAILS

[AK Marc]

I was an early adopter with PayMyBills. They were great, until they more than doubled their rates frome what I signed up with. That's about the time that Wells Fargo offered online bill pay for free that included mailing payments if they wouldn't take electronic and receiving bills if the senders were set up to do it (though not too many can do bills that way). It's kind of like PayMyBills was, but free. And someone else mentioned a late payment. The only time they were late, they contacted the payee on my behalf and got the fees waived. I guess they would have paid them if forced, but they made it so no one had to.

Re:More Paytrust info - LOTS OF DETAILS

[LVSlushdat]

YESSSS!!!! I used to use PayMyBills/PayTrust, loved them, had one biller claim I hadn't paid several months payments, PayMyBills, when asked, contacted the biller, and voila! problem solved.. But when IntoShit took them over, I dropped them like a hot potato, and told them so at the time....

Re:It's done everywhere else, so why not in the US

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you explain how sending a cheque through the post can result in fraud? Banks and financial outlets are not going to cash a cheque written out to Kuk Bajs Internet Services when some postal service schmoe with a driver's license or passport under the name "Sang Pho Cheauk" shows up and tries to cash/deposit it.

On the other hand, automated billing systems (in the US) that bill a credit or debit card, or take funds directly out of a bank account, can easily screw up, and are often conduits for malicious employees to gain access to your funds.

An (American) co-worker of mine lived in the Netherlands for 2 years. He told me how reliable all of the online methods were for paying bills there, ditto with automated billing. I asked him if he'd apply the same faith to our system back home in the States, and he said "Are you fucking crazy? I want paper statements sent through the mail".

The "anti-online payment" mentality stems from the fact that most (not all) commercial companies in the United States simply do not have their shit together. The system will fail, and you, the customer/consumer, will get fucked by it. It's not worth the risk -- and I've been there.

If you use automated payment, if the system fucks up, you'll personally spend hours upon hours on the telephone with said company trying to get the insanity dealt with. "No, no that's not what our system says here sir, the amount we deducted from your account is US$45.97" "But you deducted US$495.70!" "No sir that is not what our system says". It will take days, if not weeks, to get things straightened out.

With cheques and paper statements, this very rarely happens -- and when it does, it's because someone at the place of deposit typed in the amount wrong. If/when this happens, you tell your bank, and they do the investigative work for you, saving you time, stress, and effort. The erroneous amount deducted from your account will also be credited *immediately* until the investigation is complete, after which you'll probably find a cashed cheque withdrawl of US$45.97.

On the flip side, you'd be surprised how many Americans *do* rely on online bill payment methods. It's becoming more and more of the norm. I just happen to be one of those old fogies who has seen the "new system" fail too many times and have no desire to deal with the aftermath of such.

I'll trust paper.

All recurring expenses on credit card

[drsparkly]

and every other bill payment that I can, then I pay it all off at the regular time.

My card has 40 days interest free. All the purchases I make are budgeted, so there's always enough to pay the balance. My pay goes into a high interest, internet only account, where interest is calculated daily and credited monthly.

* I earn reward points, enough to pay the yearly credit card fee and maybe a little bit extra.
* I have to pay one regular bill rather than 4 or 5.
* I don't have to worry about having money in my bank account.
* The money can stay as long as possible in the internet only account and earn more interest.
* I get to keep my money a little longer.

It works for me, YMMV.

I don't. use a calendar.

[Anonymous Coward]

Write the due date on the calendar. Just make certain it really is the due date. CC companies like to play this game. Also most financial programs will do reminders as well as some payees with an e-mail. Last why can't your pc call their pc and do the grunt work?

Simple.

[PotatoFiend]

What kind of payment automation do you use, and why?

My system isn't completely automated, but it's like clockwork.

Every 9 months, I divide my first-born into several equal pieces and send it to the billers. Then I screw my wife, the billers screw me, and the cycle continues.

Missing option

[93 Escort Wagon]

I receive most of my bills electronically at my bank - but they don't take the money out of my account. I review the bill and I schedule the (single) payment electronically. I can also electronically send checks to billers who don't support online billing and/or payments.

So basically it's just like the old system (paper bills and paper checks), but online. The control over making the payments is still in my hands, not the billers.

Why would you give these guys the ability to pull money out of your account at will?

Direct Debit Guarantee

[Anonymous Coward]

The Direct Debit Guarantee (http://www.bacs.co.uk/BACS/Consumers/Direct+Debit/Your+rights/) which guarantees immediate (i.e. same working day) refunds in the event of errors. If an error is made you can phone your bank and demand an immediate refund.

Re:Direct Debit Guarantee

[Anonymous Coward]

I call bullshit. DD works perfectly in the UK. I too have had mistaken payments made on my account. I've rung my bank, explained the position and had the money back in my account by the close of business. Once, my bank tried to suggest I had to chase the company involved, I read them the terms of the DD guarantee and was placed on hold, then I spoke to a supervisor and when I explained what I'd do if they didn't honour the DD guarantee the supervisor appologised for the mixup and refunded the cash.

DD works in the UK. Trust me, it just does.

Re:Direct Debit Guarantee

[Anonymous Coward]

I call bullshit.

Lemme get this straight: his story never happened because it worked differently for you?

Re:Direct Debit Guarantee

[Anonymous Coward]

I call bullshit.

Lemme get this straight: his story never happened because it worked differently for you?

You must be new here.

Re:Direct Debit Guarantee

[278MorkandMindy]

And you don't live in Australia (obviously) Banks will charge you for overdrawing your account ($30) then tell you they won't stop the DD because the company who has the DD auth said it was ok. THEN they will tell you that they CAN'T stop your account being overdrawn. Yes you DID read that correctly.

Re:Direct Debit Guarantee

[BrokenHalo]

This is true.

In Australia, the customer is alway wrong.

handwritten checkss

[suck_burners_rice]

I use the automated payment system of handwriting checks that have carbonless copies for my records, stuffing them into envelopes along with the stub from the bill, sticking a postage stamp and a return address stamp on the envelope, and popping that whole darn thing into a mailbox. Automated payments are so "convenient" but handwritten cheques are the only way to go.

Re:handwritten checkss

[Anonymous Coward]

... carbonless copies ...

According to an engineer in the paper industry that I know, carbonless copy paper is hell on the paper recycling process--the encapsulated ink in this paper fouls things up. He flat out said, "Don't use it". Since then I've tried to make sure that I don't let any of the carbonless forms get into the recycling stream (put in regular trash for landfill).

I pay everything by direct debit

[jackhererUK]

Things that are the same amount every month like mortgage or gym membership just come out of the account on a particular day of the month. Other things just as mobile phone bill, cable bills etc i get a bill about 2 weeks before the money comes out and it tells me when the money for the bill will be coming out of my account. If for whatever reason i didn't want them to take the money i can cancel the DD at any time. I have never personally had any kinf of problem with DDs though they can happen. If they do the Direct Debit Guarantee states that the bank will just give you your money back if you ask.

In Europe it is irect debit, not credit card. Why?

[GeneralSunTzu]

I am quite surprised to see that none of the posters has pointed out, so far, that direct debit is preferred in Europe because of the deep difference in the banking systems with the US. In Europe, except for the UK (primitive and consumer-hostile banking) and France (deeply rooted customs), practically nobody uses checks.
Here in Belgium I last wrote a check nine years ago.
This means there is very little manual compensation activity, and instead most countries have a uniform EFT system, that works from a home computer (my bank offers a package that runs on Linux, Win, and Mac OS X).
In Belgium again I can transfer money from one of my accounts to an account I know very little about within half an hour for free.
Also, for those who are afraid of getting a debit entry of EUR 5000, you can also set, again standard practice here, direct debit with limits, so that for instance the gas utility can take money from your account up to, say, EUR 500. That should reassure even the most paranoid consumer.
To recap:
a. a uniform, in Belgium free, EFT system exist, unlike in the USA;
b. checks are now, with the exceptions noted, essentially obsolete;
c. you can temporarily dip into red and it is not a big deal;
d. you can set a limit on the direct debit, so to avoid keying mistakes.

Online Banking/Bill Payment

[Iftekhar25]

My bank has a Bill Payments facility in their online banking. It allows you to elect a recipient, and the amount. When I get my paper bills, I just key in the exact amount, select the right recipient, and do it manually.

Each transaction comes with a unique 10-digit transaction identification number. Just keep that in case there are issues (which has never happened yet). Takes a few days to process.

I don't want people to be taking money out of my account, so I will never set up an automated payment system. I want to know who I'm paying how much. It's a good way to keep track of what you're spending on.

Re:Does this count?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"Does automated payment with an automatic and a ski mask count?"

Only if you send a robot to do it.

luddites

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm amazed by the proportion of luddites coming out of the woodwork, scared of making their bill payments online. I thought this was slashdot, not elderlyfolkafraidoftheinternetdot

I dunno, maybe america is horribly behind the times, but I havent paid a bill any other way than online using bpay in the last ~8 years and I've never had an issue, nor have I heard of anyone having an issue.

Re:luddites

[Dogtanian]

I'm amazed by the proportion of luddites coming out of the woodwork, scared of making their bill payments online. I thought this was slashdot, not elderlyfolkafraidoftheinternetdot

The impression I get is that you're wrong- it's not that people here are afraid of doing such things online. It's that they're rightly sceptical of using systems that- despite supposedly being more convenient- give the companies more control over, and potential to make mistakes with, our money, when such systems don't appear to be reliable or trustworthy enough not to make such automated mistakes that could cause major inconvenience when they do happen.

In other words, if a company hasn't got its shit together and you don't have any simple way of reversing any mistakes and forcing the onus of their mistakes back onto *them*, then you'd be an idiot to grant such a system carte blanche to mess about with your finances.

BPay

[LordLucless]

Australia has a system called BPay, which has been almost universally adopted across banks, and most large billers. It comes in two parts:

BPay: Your bills come with a bpay ID, and an account number. You can log into your bank's online system, and issue a payment to that ID and account numbers. Most banks will also allow you to schedule future or recurring payments.

BPay View: Via your bank's online service, you request that this account be registered for BPay View. You provide your billing information, and the account is registered. That biller can now issue bills to your account. They're not paid automatically, but you can login to your bank's online system and pay them. Alternatively, you can instruct your bank to pay them on their due date, when they're received, or a fixed number of days after they're received. Most banks will email you when you get a new bill.

This is the system I use, whenever possible. I get an email whenever a bill arrives, telling me how much it's for. It will be automatically paid on it's due date, but I can log in at any time to stop or defer payment. All money is handled by the banks, not via any third party. Because all major Australian banks have standardized on BPay, I'm not tied to any of them in particular.

It's easy and convenient, and I really can't find any problems with it at all.

Re:BPay

[HeadlessNotAHorseman]

I pay for almost everything by credit card. When a bill arrives, I pay it via BPay using my credit card account. Some bills are automatically deducted, but mostly I receive a statement. I can even schedule each bill as it arrives so that it gets paid automatically just before the due date. My CC card has no fees, and I get 55 days interest free. So every weekend I log in to the CC website and check the statement to make sure there is nothing suspicious. If there are any suspicious charges, they are on a CC account so I can easily get them reversed by my CC provider. Then I use BPay to pay off the credit card from my bank account. If something were to ever go wrong and I found myself without enough funds to cover the CC bill, I still have a couple of weeks of breathing space to rustle up the money before I get hit with any fees.

The fact is, US banking is backward

[Kupfernigk]

Speaking as someone who has been a local director of a US corporation and then a general manager in a company with a US subsidiary, the biggest issues are simply that US banks are technically backward compared to Europe, and that you have no Data Protection Act.

In the US it has been made very easy to set up a bank -with the result that many people, some with fraudulent intentions, do just that. (At the other end of the scale I know of a small community of professional people that set up its own bank just because they didn't trust the big ones, and it was very successful. I am not suggesting that Americans are less honest than Europeans, that is far from the truth.) In Europe the banking system has deep roots in the Jewish community becaue Jews were discriminated against - they could not own land but were allowed to charge interest - and this tension has created what is, on the whole, a very successful and honest banking system. (In fact in the UK banks were also started by nonconformists like Quakers for much the same reason - Barclays being an example.)

The result is that until the madness of the last ten years our banking system was very trustworthy and we were prepared to believe in direct debit systems - which on the whole work very well. Meanwhile in the US banks were still settling interbank transfers with bits of paper, and this is still an issue today - in Chicago we had to set up an account with a subsidiary of the (British) NatWest just to avoid ludicrous delays and overcharging for simple transactions. This is ultimately because in the UK many bankers knew they were less than honest, and so were not inclined to trust other banks. The present credit crisis is because, after years of unregulated credit and junk assets, banks have discovered once again that they cannot trust one another. Paypal is an example of a system that was set up to deal with what is really a US problem, not a general problem.

The answer to direct debits is to make the system as robust as European systems - which make the person asking for the money extremely liable if they make a mistake. But this is unlikely to happen, because US law favours corporations over individuals. And, given Obama's choice of running mate and his connections, voting either way in November won't have any effect.

Re:The fact is, US banking is backward

[Peeteriz]

And the reasons for the European situation are not because EU banks behave better - it's because of heavy-handed intervention from the governments to protect consumers.

All these benefits of EU Direct Debit system(s) that make it good for the customer (instantly reverse payments weeks after they have been debited, authorisation requirements, fee and float limits) are not due to goodwill, but due to requirements set by initiatives such as EU Payment Service Directive and SEPA. The situation would me much more in favor of the billing companies' and bank fee-income (like in USA) if it were driven purely by free market.

Re:The fact is, US banking is backward

[CodeBuster]

The situation would me much more in favor of the billing companies' and bank fee-income (like in USA) if it were driven purely by free market.

The European system has advantages, but there are disadvantages as well that may not be quite as obvious at first, but show up in the larger economic picture. In Europe it is more difficult to acquire financing for you small business or start up business because nobody wants to loan you any money, or at least not at a very attractive rate, unless you have been around for a long time and already have a large and successful business (in which case you wouldn't be looking for startup capital anyway). Personal loans are also more difficult to come by, the unemployment rate is higher (it is harder to fire someone, but that also makes it harder to find a job in the first place), and the costs of goods and services reflect the additional red tape experienced by businesses and producers with the possibility of reversed payments (up to two weeks later), cumbersome data privacy and liability laws (a two edged sword, protects consumers but makes for fewer firms and higher prices due to the regulatory burden of running a business), higher taxes, and other assorted impediments to the free market. The US has its problems, yes, but it is a mistake to believe that the grass is always greener in the European Union by way of comparison. It basically boils down to a question of what do we as a society want and how much are we willing to pay/give up to get it. I would argue that the Europeans have better privacy and (in some cases, not all) better routine health care, and better social safety net, but (and this is the kicker) they overpay for these benefits compared to what they get in return.

Re:The fact is, US banking is backward

[QuestorTapes]

> the biggest issues are simply that US banks are
> technically backward compared to Europe, and
> that you have no Data Protection Act.

Both accurate points, but there are other big differences. In the US, many banks aren't; they are Savings and Loan associations or Credit Unions, and regulated differently, and Federally chartered banks are regulated differently than state chartered.

> until the madness of the last ten years our
> banking system was very trustworthy and we were
> prepared to believe in direct debit systems -
> which on the whole work very well. Meanwhile
> in the US banks were still settling interbank
> transfers with bits of paper, and this is still
> an issue today

And while the move to direct debit in Europe was inspired by cost, efficiency, and customer service concerns, much of the reason for expansion in the direct debit systems of the US was mandated in response to 9/11, when banking transfers were hobbled by no Fedex flights carrying those little bits of paper you mentioned.

> The answer to direct debits is to make the
> system as robust as European systems - which
> make the person asking for the money extremely
> liable if they make a mistake. But this is
> unlikely to happen, because US law favours
> corporations over individuals

Not entirely, although I agree with your conclusion. Another reason is that the process will involve many legal challenges, since this is yet another area where the Federal legislature will be fighting the state legislatures, with the Judicial system fighting both, and itself.

I think the fight would look a little like Monty Python's Upper Class Twit of the Year competition.

Re:The fact is, US banking is backward

[qzulla]

I am not suggesting that Americans are less honest than Europeans, that is far from the truth.) In Europe the banking system has deep roots in the Jewish community becaue Jews were discriminated against - they could not own land but were allowed to charge interest - and this tension has created what is, on the whole, a very successful and honest banking system. (In fact in the UK banks were also started by nonconformists like Quakers for much the same reason - Barclays being an example.)

Let us not forget the Knights Templar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Knights_Templar#Bankers

Along with the fact they were some bad ass fighters.

qz

USofA very different from EU

[dltaylor]

In the USofA, EVERY other entity involved in any sort of automatic debit is out to pillage your account, totally disregarding actual amounts due and due dates. The banks, in particular, are doing everything that they can to generate fees for overdrafts, so they refuse to provide any protection for bizarre debits. Payments may be disputed, but resolution takes months.

The "free" services are making money from the "float" and may, or may not, make the payment on time, and you have no recourse for the late fees.

Payments by dedicated credit card make some sense, since you have a chance to dispute the charges before payment (unless you've got a debit payment option on the CC).

Personally, only one institution has an authorized debit from my account, and that's because my credit union has never let me down pulling the payments on a specialized low-limit "net only" credit card it has issued.

BTW, did you know that banks always pay debit demands from other banks without checking for your authorization?

Re:USofA very different from EU

[Badanov]

My own experience with letting a vendor have access to my account was all bad. Once I allowed these charges to take place, the bank would continue to honor them evn though I told them not to pay it. (billing dispute with a vendor ) I realized at that point that once the electronic transfer authorization was made my relationship changed from being a bank customer to an outsider to my very account. And even when I stopped putting money in, even when I warned the vendor I wanted them to stop trying to take money from my account, the bank continually accepted them even with a negative balance. Since that time I have never allowed any electronic debit to my account for any reason. Even for a service or a product I really wanted if they demanded electronic funds transfer, I would just not buy or go elsewhere, even at the risk of higher costs just to keep the cheating bastards away from my money. And to our smug Euro and Commonwealth comrades: It's cool to be smug about electronic stuff, but what you fail to realize and may well never realize at least we still have this freedom and choose not to let a bunch of criminals and criminal enterprises access to our accounts. We know just as welll as you do how to operate an electronic account and yet choose not to. It's called freedom. You should try it. Integrity will trump convenience everytime

Re:USofA very different from EU

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF is up with that rant at the end.

Sorry, the EU has consumer protection laws. These actually work to benefit the consumer. We wouldn't use Direct Debit without that, if companies had free reign over your bank accounts once allowed in.

The USA is a primitive, but rich, country, socially. Much as the Incas had gold running everywhere, but still practiced sacrifice.

Seems that US banks saw that the EU had this convenient practice called Direct Debit, implemented their own version as Automatic Bill Pay, but without any of the checks and balances of the EU version.

health insurance

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing I have automatically paid every month is my health insurance - you do NOT want to miss that payment when you're stuck in a hospital!

Different places, different practices?

[Anonymous Coward]

In Norway, we basicly have two forms of electronic bill payments; "electronic payment" and "agreed payment".

The electronic one is simply a bill added to your "e-bank". It's added at the same time you would get the bill via snail mail, and the payment date is set to the deadline for the payment. There is also a tickbox called "accept". When this is accepted, the bill gets paid on the deadline date.

The agreed one is like the above, with the tickbox already ticked. You can review and stop the bill at any time before the deadline.

On the agreed payment plan you can ofcourse set a monthly upper limit for each company.

It is *not* like giving a company a straw into your bank account. I handle payments of electricity, phone, ISP, rent and insurance this way.

On a sidenote, the one time I paid too much (by my own mistake, this was before agreed payment) I got the surplus ammount subtracted from the bill the following month.

What kind of payment automation do you use, and wh

[amnezick]

NONE!

Wasting a few hours a month to pay your bills is simply better and safer than waking up one day with an electricity bill in your mailbox that claims you used 3 times more than last month and they're only letting you know they already took your money so .. have a nice day.

In India...

[chap_hyd]

I use http://www.visa.com/visabillpay/ , these guys present my bills, and notify me by email. one day i login to their site and cross check the amounts with my electronic pdf bill i get from the actual service provider and then pay from visabillpay. these guys have service in USA , Singapore and India as of now

Germany

[Lonewolf666]

is one of those European countries where direct debit is used a lot. I find it a quite convenient process, and it is reasonably safe too:
The undo timeframe BorgDrone mentioned is 6 weeks according to the banks, and according to all accounts it works without problems in that timeframe. But if the 6 weeks are binding for you is legally unclear, court decisions are mixed. So you might have a chance to undo the debit even after 6 weeks, albeit with more hassle (going to court).

Maybe i dont want a 18,000 quid gas bill

[flyinhigh]

yes you read that right, i went on vacation for a month and the gas company had to come out while i was gone to fix a leak, well they broke my line after the meter and let 18,000 pounds worth of gas vent to the atmosphere, then charged me for it.

Re:It's done everywhere else, so why not in the US

[julesh]

If you use automated payment, if the system fucks up, you'll personally spend hours upon hours on the telephone with said company trying to get the insanity dealt with. "No, no that's not what our system says here sir, the amount we deducted from your account is US$45.97" "But you deducted US$495.70!" "No sir that is not what our system says". It will take days, if not weeks, to get things straightened out.

That's the problem with your system, right there. Here's how it works in the UK:

(Call utility company)
"You charged me £495.70"
"No, we charged you £45.97"
"Refund me £495.70 now, or I'll get my bank to take it back from you.

(In the unlikely event that they refuse, call bank)
"I've been overcharged on a direct debit. Can you refund it for me?"
"Certainly. What's your account number?"

It'll take ten minutes to deal with, maximum.

Yes, this has happened to me.

Direct Debit Guarantee

[kippers]

Ah, the immediate Direct Debit Guarantee. When an extra payment was taken by the company by mistake, I contacted the bank but they refused to refund it, as they said they complied with the instruction to issue payment when requested. I ended up arguing with the company over the phone and eventually receiving a cheque back in the post. Needless to say I no longer use direct debit.

The US of competition and better value...

[tliet]

Not...

Here we are, in 'old Europe', having done away with checks in the late 80s, credit cards were really never that popular (I've never paid a single bill with it) and we're used to full electronic banking since the mid 90s. In the Netherlands we have had direct deposit and direct debit for ages.

So, yes, you can set it up so that any company can take whatever it feels you owe them and yes, it only takes one call to the bank to reverse it.

But I've decided against it.

Why?

Since I can't tell my employer to let me just withdraw whatever I feel he owes me, why should a supplier to me be able to do just that?

Cheques are very common in France

[Nicolas MONNET]

I'm not sure exactly why; I just learned recently that it was an exception, along with US-UK, internationally.
Other than that, everything said applies here, too.
I can chime in with a few informations on how automated debit works, having briefed by a banker I know. First of all, not every company can apply, and there's a vetting process before the priviledge is granted to a creditor. A background check is done on the executives, I believe.
Then, most importantly, the priviledge can be revoked at any time if the company makes too many errors.

That's because US banks are fucked up

[Nicolas MONNET]

And so are their companies, when it comes to consumer rights. They have good reason to be riled up; if the phone company makes a mistake, tries to withdraw $10k, you don't have them ... well, it's never THEIR problem until you spend $20k on a lawyer to fix it.
And until then, their credit rating is fucked, and should they need a mortgage, it's gonna cost them a nice $100k more. I'm probably exagerating but that's I gather.
In Europe we (still) have consumer protection, because we (still) have a functioning state, despite the combined efforts of the likes of Thatcher and Sakrozy.

Direct Debits the way to go..

[Anonymous Coward]

i think UK & europe banking systems are advanced with laws to back them up..wages are paid directly into your bank, bill can be paid by direct debit or standing order, you can easily do electronic funds transfer from your account to any account (if you have the details). if there are problems, I have found my bank has been quick to resolve them..

if the banking system is in place with robust rules then there is not much to fear... e.g. in UK there is also the direct debit guarantee, which which helps towards ensuring that there any no an authorised transactions..

what would be interesting to know is the statistics, e.g. in the UK of all the people using Direct Debit each year, what percentage of people have had problems ??

In Estonia

[shitzu]

We use electronic banking authenticated with smart cards almost exclusively. We have never used any checks and we use credit cards only for purchases in shops, etc.

The internet bank gives you the following options for paying the bills:
- you make the transfer yourself
- you have the bank make the transfer of the same amount after regular intervals (e.g. monthly)
- you (electronically) sign a contract that the utility will charge your bank account directly, but you set the limit to the amount

Only the third option gives a utility chance to "overdraw" from your account, but even then it is limited by yourself.

Trust

[Noctris]

I guess it's all about trust. I too use Direct Debt (Belgium) for most of my important uttilities (water, electric, phone, gas)... But we have many different options. For example: most uttilitie companies just direct debt a fix amount you have agreeded with them when closing your contract (for example $ 120 a month).. every 6 months they send you an "update" with a calculation of your real usage and give you the money you payed too much back OR send you the bill for the remaining amount (can be direct debt too if you want).. this way, the suprises are kept at an absolute minimum.. For the few errors i have heared about, it always was corrected very soon and honest ( as in: putting your money back on the date they took it off so you don't loose your interests..

For less known companies which you doubt.. you can use electronic billing where you see the bill on your electronic banking, can quickly check the details and pay it with 1 click.. Then again.. i've never hearded horror stories about getting the money from different accounts if you don't have enough money on the original one.. if the funds are insufficient, the direct debt just bounces like a cheque and that's it.

Standing on both sides of the line ( my company also uses direct debt to get our money from the customer).. i can tell you it is a time saver for us AND , more important.. get's us the money in time.. if you want to pay manual, there is an extra fee attached to it simply because 90% of our B2B customers simply pay late.. not enough to ask for interessts but enough to be painfull for a startup.. (taking 35 days instead of 28).. we often really need our cash to pay our own bills.. and it turns into a spiral at the end.. our customers pay late so we have to pay late ...

What i wanted to add about The Netherlands ( since we do business there too).. They have an extra motivation to do things right.. I a company bills wrong a couple of times , their right to direct debt can be revoked by the bank until they sort out the problem.. now if you are a company in the Netherlands with a couple of thousand customers and you screw up a couple of times.. you'll be very sorry to notice that all of a sudden, you have to bill all these customers manually and try to get your money from them... believe me that this is a REAL motivator to check your process and your code 20 times before using it in production...

All my bills are 'scripted' also.

[AbRASiON]

My pay goes each month into a high interest savings account (internet only accessible)
Once a month, that account automatically 'pushes' a figure to the regular bank account.

From the regular bank account, my bills (including rent) are setup to either auto withdraw (direct debit) or 'bpay' automatically etc.
(Note: these are Australian terms, I don't know the US equiv)

Due to the amount of cash in the high interest savings account, sadly I could probably die and no one would know for at least a two or three years. (unless the smell gets pretty nasty)

I like it like this though, I'm exceptionally disorganised (I can't tell you how chaotically disorganised I am, it's hard to put into words) - so this relieves some of the stress in my life by handling this aspect entirely for me.

Just to clarify for the Americans, checks (cheques, whatever) are virtually dead here, most things are electronic or cash.

Combination of factors

[Kupfernigk]

When I was working part-time on normalisation some years ago, there was a lot of discussion over whether Directives and ENs were intended to protect the citizen or make it easier for European corporations to compete. I think most of the time the EU has got it right, balancing capitalism and statism quite well in the Eurozone, and less well in the Anglozone which tends to overvalue the US model. However, while you are right in what you say about the requirements, the fact is that the EU banks accepted the principles of the Directives in a form which would never have happened in the US, and I believe that this is because at the time European banking culture was more fuelled by ideas of social respectability, and less fuelled by simple greed, than much of the UK banking system. As they say, it takes two to tango.

On time = "late" = collection agency.

[dpbsmith]

My bank offered free bill paying, so I give it a try. After three or four months, I was close to hooked. Then something happened that soured me on it. Permanently. I don't know what happened behind the scenes, I'm just telling you I experienced.

a) The service distinguished between merchants that could get paid electronically, for which it said to allow two days, and those that couldn't, for which it said to allow five. AT&T was one of the latter.

b) At the time I'd been at AT&T customer for about three decades. During that time I paid my bills on time and never received a single late notice from them.

c) I used the service to pay the AT&T bill, issuing the directions on line ten business days before the bill was due. The online service showed the date I entered the directions, and five days later showed the bill as being paid.

d) Two calendar days after the due date for the bill, I got a telephone call from a collection agency saying it hadn't been paid.

e) When I called AT&T they said their records showed the bill had been paid, one day late according to their records, and that everything was fine, they were happy, there was not problem.

But the collection agency kept calling.

f) The bank retrieved a cancelled-check image for me, front and back, showing that AT&T had, in fact, been paid several days BEFORE the due date. It wasn't even one day late. It was paid on time.

g) For a couple of weeks. The AT&T billing office kept saying everything was fine and they'd tell the collection agency to stop, but the collection agency kept calling. They just kept saying that "they had not received that information from AT&T." The collection agency refused to disclose any contact information for themselves except a PO box. I mailed copies of the cancelled check image to that PO box. They said they hadn't received it. They kept calling, day after day, every evening at suppertime, for about two or three weeks.

I cancelled my AT&T service and will never do business with them again.

And, I stopped using the bill paying service and will never use one of them again.

I have no idea why using a bill-paying service would put collection actions on a hair-trigger, but I can't believe it was a coincidence. It is, to date, the only time in my life a collection agency has called.

I want it to be the last time. I'm not the least bit interested in learning how to deal with collection agencies efficiently, or bother to cite me the chapter and verse of the law that says the collection agency can't do what they, in fact, did. I am much more interested in staying clear of situations where a tiny glitch can set off a collection process. On the evidence, using a bill-paying service might be one of them.

Re:On time = "late" = collection agency.

[hattig]

Sounds like the bill paying service worked perfectly, and AT&T cocked up. If this automated bill paying service in the USA is like Direct Debit in the UK, then it absolutely cannot trigger collections agencies, it's just a bank transfer on a specific day triggered by the billing company.

But why the fuck was a collections agency onto you TWO DAYS afterwards? That's absolutely ridiculous.

Re:On time = "late" = collection agency.

[xaxa]

His point (a) says AT&T can't get paid electronically for some reason, and he also mentions a cancelled cheque involved in the online payment. That doesn't sound like the UK system at all, it's weird.

Re:On time = "late" = collection agency.

[hattig]

Looking through the discussion, it's all:

a) Europe: We have this awesome system (and variants thereof) that works, with strong incentives/harsh penalties for abuse by the billing companies.

b) Australia: We have this awesome system that works, ditto.

c) USA: We have this system that doesn't really work, that we don't trust, with no protection for us.

It's entirely an implementation issue, and I suggest that it's implemented to be best for business and the banks, with no consideration for the consumer that it's meant to be useful for.

errors

[spottedkangaroo]

I doubt I'll ever go to automatic bill pay because of errors. One time SBC sent me a $450 bill because of errors on their part. With automatic bill pay, they'd already have the money and my dialog with their customer service would have been about giving it back instead of the other way around.

Then, another time, only a couple years later, they sent me a bill for $3300 -- not kidding in any way. The only way I got them to listen to me that time was by saying, "MPSC." Automatic bill pay would have made that a horrible disaster.

Basically since those two incidents, I've been 100% totally against automatic bill pay ... at least the type where the company pulls from your accounts directly. The flavors where a 3rd party keeps an eye out for mistakes might be more palatable.

Re:errors

[hattig]

If you checked your statements when they arrived, you could have seen the errors and put a stop to the debit before it occurred.

That is assuming that you actually do get statements (post or online) before the debit happens in the USA?

In your case what you probably want is an account that you put your expected amount of monthly bills in each month, and then pay all your bills from that one, instead of your primary account. If the company makes a mistake they are liable for any charges you may incur as a result of their mistake as well (or is that different in the USA as well?). Also do you have the option of putting a ceiling on the amount the debit is?

Automatic debiting is good for any bills that will incur a record in your credit history if you fail to pay them - basically credit cards, mortgage, etc. Luckily the mortgage amount is known in advance, and the credit card can be set to just pay the minimum required each month.

Re:errors

[spottedkangaroo]

If you have to do all that work for the privilege of automatic payments, why not just pay them by hand? Therefore, my wife and I just pay them by hand. Works great.

Also, you're much better off paying off your credit card every month. We write the check by hand, for the full amount. It's nice.

Re:errors

[hattig]

I still refuse to believe that people use cheques on a day to day basis in the 21st century!

They're only used over here for big payments (usually credit card cheques as well (3% fee, 1 year interest free is a typical offer) but I usually shred the cheques whenever they arrive).

Direct Debit gives you peace of mind, and discounted bills. You can stop them at any time, and the transactions are covered by the Direct Debit guarantee. Why wouldn't you use it!

I wouldn't trust a cheque to the postal service, and then incur a fee because it's late! Nor would I spend the time to go to a bank to pay them off - what a waste of time queuing is! Checking your statements takes a couple of minutes, and is just a matter of being responsible to yourself and your money.

Re:In Europe it is irect debit, not credit card. W

[xaxa]

the UK (primitive and consumer-hostile banking)

It's getting a lot better -- a few months ago a rule was introduced so that money transferred online became instant (rather than "disappearing" for 5 days). There's currently a test case going through the courts to decide if charging people £35 for going £1 overdrawn is fair (the banks will probably lose it).

I hate cheques. If I give one to someone I know (e.g. my flatmate) they pay it in five months later when I'm not expecting it. My previous landlord wanted cheques for the rent -- he was about 70 and didn't like anything electronic -- and again he was erratic paying them in. Those could easily be replaced by electronic transfer (in fact, I now refuse to write cheques to people I know -- if they want the money, they can have an electronic transfer, of if they really don't want that they can come to the ATM).
I don't like it when people give me cheques either, since I then have to go to the bank.

So what's the point?

[dzfoo]

Her article concludes that "[i]n essence, the first principle of the automated payment is this: If you simply set it and forget it, you'll probably regret it."

However, that is precisely the opposite of the point of her original article, that automatic online payments are so easy and convenient that you no longer have to remember to do them, nor use up any of your precious time on them.

Writing cheques by hand (or even paying online manually) may take some effort and discipline, but ultimately keeps you aware of your current financial situation. Moreover, if it ever happened that a mistake was made, you are more likely to notice an anomaly on your next payment cycle, presumably before any harm occurred.

So, whether the author wants to admit it or not, her original observation that automatic bill pay is the best method to handle your recurring expenses, was wrong; and most of the arguments to support this assertion (e.g. security, convenience, time) are invalidated in practice by the inherent precariousness of abdicating what should be a very personal (and important) responsibility.

        -dZ.

Re:It's done everywhere else, so why not in the US

[spymagician]

Reading is fundamental! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Check_washing

Diligence with your statements is more important

[hattig]

Direct Debit for bills - because you sometimes get a discount for paying by Direct Debit, and also because missing bill payments is a real hassle and I'm not organised enough to actually remember to pay things on time.

As for the credit card, I use it to pay for all orders online and of a reasonable amount in supermarkets. This gives me some protection, as opposed to using cash or a Debit Card.

I also check my bills every month to make sure that there is nothing out of the ordinary, and I look at my bank statements too (online, a couple of times a week). This is where you need to be diligent - the method you choose to pay is less important. You can revoke a Direct Debit at any time as well.

A myth about "third parties"

[Jay L]

There seems to be a common assumption, even here on Slashdot, that your money is somehow safer if you don't entrust it to a third party (such as a bill payment service). A few months ago, I was talking about check fraud with someone who doesn't do any online banking at all. I asked him if he writes checks, and he said "Only to the electric company!"

I don't know about you guys, but I haven't audited my electric company's processes lately. Anybody here know the name of the person at NStar/ConEd/etc that opens the mail? Anybody sure if the mail is even opened by an employee, or if it's contracted out to a vendor of theirs? Do they even do the data entry locally, or do they throw it in a scanner and have the data entry done offshore, like radiology labs do?

I don't see any reason to think that writing a physical check to the electric company is any less secure than doing it online, where I have a reasonable assumption that at least it's not going to go through human hands for payment processing. (Unless, of course, that online payment becomes a laser check, which then is subject to all the same vulnerabilities.)

Summary: I think you generally have no way of knowing if your payment method is secure or not. I just assume it probably is, and that I have legal recourse if I'm wrong.

The banking system of the US is completely f****d

[blackchiney]

I've tried the bill pay in the past and it ended up costing me more money than it saved. At the time I was a student so saving money by any means necessary was how we operate. I had set up a few accounts and set the date I would like to send the money. You would think if there isn't enough money on the 1st the account would try on the 2nd or 3rd day. Nope, it was a one off check account at 12:00AM. No money is sent ever, no notice is sent, just nothing. After using this for a few months the late fees and randomness of the whole deal just clinched it. Another time I had Sprint do direct withdrawal. One billing error and I'm dinged on all my other bills. Rent was the worse since the late fee was $75 and the bank can only reverse their own fees, not the fees of others. Since then I don't touch automatic anything unless it's an absolute set amount with set schedule (insurance and mortgage for example). Upon moving to Europe my wife introduced me to the French TIP sheets. The first few months I refused to fill in one for the ISP. After watching her easily reverse a charge with Orange and wait for the resulting phone call I thought it should be this easy. It's been relatively trouble free and a lot easier than checks. Too bad the US won't have anything like this, unless the banks are forced to do so by an act of congress.

Overdraft is ENCOURAGED

[Fjan11]

Also important to explain to Americans is that banks here in the Netherlands ENCOURAGE you to overdraft, instead of punishing you for it. For the simple reason that they make money on the interest they charge. (You have to stay below a limit that depends on your credit worthiness)

When I lived in the US no one managed to explain to me why the same business logic doesn't apply there

Re:Overdraft is ENCOURAGED

[drsmithy]

When I lived in the US no one managed to explain to me why the same business logic doesn't apply there

They do. It's called a credit card.

I do it all..

[bytesex]

I automated regular payments for fixed amounts using my bank's web app, I authorised a few entities to automatically take what's owed, who wouldn't do business otherwise, and for others I just pay the bill manually. I'm in Europe, so I can reverse automatic payments for a month, which is good. However, I'm longing for the day when businesses can just issue a You-owe-me with my bank, and I can just check the boxes when I log into their web app.

Re:I do it all..

[Anonymous Coward]

In Finland, e-invoices are already starting to become common, and they've been offered to consumers for a couple of years already. The service is free for the consumer (at least in my bank).

I get my DSL and phone bills straight into my netbank. When I log on, I can read the contents of the bill to verify it's OK, and then just click on a button to pay it on the due date or whenever.

Hopefully more companies will sign up for this as time goes on.

Mine's not foolproof, but it's pretty reliable

[jht]

I send in checks for all bills. We log them in the checkbook so we have a written backup, and then I do all the data entry and balancing in Quicken. Takes about 15 minutes a week - my wife writes the checks, I do the data entry.

We also do a couple of unique things (at least in the US) - we pay everything in full, and send in the payment the same week we get the bill. Usually within a day or two. And we keep enough of a cash cushion in our accounts that we never worry about overdrafts.

I've looked into payment systems but I just don't have the trust necessary. The closest we've come is that when my wife was working she would pay all the bills she could (her cellphone, office phone, storage unit, and gas) with her company credit card and then just fill out the expense reports. But that wasn't money coming out of our own accounts - her company paid it and she just had to reconcile the bill.

We probably pay $8 or so per month in postage that we might not have to with bill pay systems, but I don't think it's that costly. And we know our accounts aren't being tapped without our approval.

Whoosh!

[Anonymous Coward]

What we have here is a distinct failure to catch actual *irony*.

At least the moderators caught it.

(Yes, that was also irony -- I figure I'd better point that out.)

Re:The banking system of the US is completely f***

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess that's what we get for living in a dog-eats-dog economic system.

I use a wide mix, cashless

[v1]

I have a regular visa and mastercard that I rarely use. I also have a visa debit card from my bank, I have cheques, and I have a payal account.

Most of my utilities are auto pay. They are either bound to my visa debit card or to my checking account. Things like the monthly power bill, internet service, and local phone bill. They used to mail me a statement but I've gotten most of them to emailing me my statements now since my mailbox mysteriously loses mail occasionally. Failure to receive bills in the mail was the primary reason I tried to get everything to electronic.

Some of my bills such as long distance and insurance do not offer direct payment, and half of them mail me a bill, the other half email me a notice to go to their web page to view my month's statement. For those I use my bank's "billpay" feature. I login to my bank web page and tell the bank who and how much to cut checks for. They keep the payee lists so I don't have to hunt down addresses or account numbers ever, and because I have opted for electronic statements instead of mailing me mine, my billpay service is totally free. I was expecting to occasionally have problems with a creditor losing a payment since it's not 100% the way they are expecting the checks to come in, or to have someone auto pay the wrong ammount, but in the last five years not a single problem has come up. Also, some of my bank's billpay are actually electronic transfers, because my bank participates in some sort of electronic payment network and has a lot of the big ones in the list. In either case, I don't even pay for a stamp.

Online purchases I do with my visa/debit card (as visa) or paypal. I avoid paypal unless necessary because the deductions on the statement say paypal and don't tell which vendor that payment went to, and I have a notoriously short memory on these things. Paypal is linked to my bank account and immediately directly deducts for purchases.

I try to use cash as sparingly as possible, and it's taken me a couple years to get proficient at it. I used to take out $20-60 every payday. Now I actually occasionally deposit cash and almost never withdraw it. And by this I mean I also don't just run to the ATM every time I need cash for a purchase. People that are always saying "I need to run to the ATM quick" need to get with the program. I use my visa/debit card for everything. I track my spending with a spreadsheet that contains my bank register back to 1995. Each entry is marked into one of a dozen categories, and allows me to see exactly where my money is going. There's a summary sheet that keeps track of stats. Entertainment, transportation, utility, home improvement, etc. I can tell you to the dollar how much I spent on gas or groceries this year or how much my heating bill went up over last year, etc. All possible because I don't use cash and have all those visa/debit receipts.

I've never been auto billed wrong, but I have had my visa/debit card hit twice by accident on half a dozen occasions. UPS, quickstar (gas), and mcdonalds several times, which is the only hassel I've had to deal with as a result of being cashless. UPS was the only one that requires me to take my printed statement into them to credit for the double charge, all the others merely required a phonecall. Looking at it from the other side of the fence, how many times have you been shorted on change when paying for cash? Do you really count it each time? I'm sure you've been shorted several times and you'll never know it. I know no one's gotten away with cheating me. So I think cashless is actually the safer way to go.

And I use on average a dozen checks a year. My bank is a credit union, has free everything, and pays me dividends on my balance in checking and savings. I don't see why anyone uses regular (non credit union) banks.

CC direct pay

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to be a Compuserve member and had that billed automatically through my credit card. Then AOL took over. At some point, I decided to cancel the service. It took several hours (over several days/months) on the phone to get AOL to cancel my account. At the same time, my CC company would not cancel the charges since it was an automatic billing. I even tried canceling the credit card. The credit card company still sent the bill for Compuserve/AOL each month. It turns out that they'll still accept bills that have been setup for automatic billing. I finally got through to someone at AOL that would cancel the account. I'll never allow a company to automatically bill my credit card for anything again.

trouble in changes and corrections

[Anonymous Coward]

the one reason why you would not set up any kind of automatic payment is simply that you are likely to have trouble making corrections or changes

if you terminate your service the vendor may go right on charging you

so you call them on the phone and -- we all know what happens -- you fight your way through the automatic phone menus and end up with a service rep who reads data off a computer screen. the data matches whatever problem you are trying to fix of course. but the service rep just reads you what is on the computer screen.

automation is convienent when it's working

but good luck getting it corrected when there is an error

corporations are the enemy of the people

Never trust American companies

[Anonymous Coward]

I do not use automatic payments and never will. I pay my bills as they come and make my judgment and analysis of pay as each bill comes. Never trusted American companies or banks for automated payments and never will. Period.

What kind of payment automation do you use

[smchris]

None. Looked at my contract several years ago when it first became available. "We don't guarantee your payment will arrive on time and aren't responsible for late fees." Screw that.

 

In Denmark: Betalingsservice

[exazoid]

In Denmark we have a service called Betalingsservice (translated: payment services), which is owned by PBS a company owned collectively by the banks.

PBS is also the entity that drives the danish Dankort (a debit card which has near 100% penetration, see wikipedia) and "foreign" cards (Visa/Master...)

The system is quite easy. Suppliers sign up to the services and bills the customers through it.
The customer has actively to make a "payment contract" with the supplier before the supplier can draw money.
The customers gets a overview of coming payments around the 25th (for the next month) usually in their webbank and effectively has somethings like 10 days to decline a payment (even if it has happened and you are within the decline period). The customer can also always cancel the "payment contract" to the company, denying the company to make any further charges.

I have never tried to decline a payment as it there has never been any errors in the 10+ years I have (heavily) used it. But given the general level of customer protection associated with banking services in Denmark, I am certain that it will not be an issue.

For an example, a few years ago I had a fraudent charge on my Visacard in the range of 500$. I called my bank and told them I had not made that purchase, signed a form (they sent to me) saying the same. And a few days later the money was returned. (Whether the bank gets back it's money is not the customer's problem in this case.)

Re:It's done everywhere else, so why not in the US

[PRMan]

US banks seem to have an antagonistic relationship with their consumers. They try to nickel and dime and not return any charge they possibly can. This leads to a lack of trust on the part of the consumer.

How About..

[ddoz]

They have no access whatsoever to our bank accounts. There's a reason we keep our funds locked away from greedy fingers. If they want me to pay, send a bill. If I don't pay it, send a notification/warning letter. If I still don't, take me to court. Under no circumstances do you become their property.

Re:How About..

[dossen]

Why does using direct debit make me "their" property? Assuming that the system is properly implemented it should do exactly two things: Give you the bill in electronic form and allow you to change the _default_ response to a given bill from "don't pay" to "pay". Nothing more.

I like auto-pay but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Main problem I've had is double-paying. I use automatic payment from my bank. This way I save postage, worry less about bills going out, and my payors don't have more info on me than they would get from a check (at least to my knowledge :*) Recently when preparing to go on vacation, I scheduled a payment from Quicken to my mortgage company, forgetting that it was auto-withdrawn from my account as well. Result was two mortgage payments and $0 balance.

Thankfully the resolution was not overly difficult - but still painful. Wachovia is refunding my 2nd payment but there's a 10 day waiting period on refunds.

Lesson learned: I have a list of all auto-withdrawn bills by the computer.

No way, no how, never

[mbone]

About sums it up.

Re:No way, no how, never

[mbone]

And this article about The Bank Account that Sprang a Leak
about sums up why. My accounts, too, have sprung leaks in the past...

Bill Pay from your Bank the best option

[nullhero]

I work for a major bank and I can say that bill payment system from your bank is probably the best. Why? Because you set the rules as to when you pay a bill. Just one rule you should always remember, do not schedule a bill if you don't have the money at the time. Once it is scheduled it can take between 1-5 days for your vendor it receive it. Good thing? Not really if you don't have the money and check is processed, because your vendor doesn't accept electronic payments, then it can cause NSFs. If it is electronic then it'll come out the day you want it to. But if there is no money the bill payment company might still pay it causing NSFs again. So if you don't have the money don't schedule the payment.

Make sure you have the correct account # on everything. Electronic payments can have problems on the vendors side not knowing where to credit. Your name is not transmitted most of the time or captured by the receiving bank.

Once you have scheduled a payment, the bank has a limited amount of time to stop or cancel a payment. If you decide you don't want the payment to go through and you missed that window you can't call the bank to stop it.

Don't give out your Visa/Mastercard DEBIT card to anyone that you don't want to assume the risk. The good thing is that Visa/Mastercard has a good way of disputing suspected fraud charges on your account. You have to go through the bank and complete the paperwork the bank will give provisional credit. If the dispute is valid then you keep the credit. If the bank discover you authorized or your didn't complete all the paperwork with the bank, you will lose the credit. Visa/Mastercard have a 60 day policy regarding disputes. You have to dispute the charge within that time frame and it has to be valid else you lose your credit and no one can help you.

Other than a check (which has the info) never give out your routing # nor checking account # to anyone over the Internet. If they can't process debit/credit card transactions there might be a problem. Giving these two pieces of info out to anyone can constitute that you authorized the transaction.

Push is better

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost all banks now have fully functional push bill paying systems, so why not use those? I setup all of my bills as automatic push payments so I can control who gets paid and when but for the most part it is automatic. For bills that don't always have a set amount I just enter an amount that is higher than that bill is likely to be and then adjust it when I get the bill. While the percentage of errors in billing are really low it would still suck to be in that percentage and have someone take out too much money and bounce your account, leaving you to clean up the mess. I spend about 10 minutes a week monitoring my accounts and truing up the bills, much better than cleaning up a mess after a billing error.

Re:ehh

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, your [sic] #1 across the finish line, but your [sic]a retarded fucking loser

but your [sic] an emo bitch

Ah, Irony, thy name is Anonymous Coward.

the safest of all the online options

[Jarik C-Bol]

Obviously, transferring financial information over the internet will always have its risks, but the way i pay my bills is the safest. i pay them online, but each month i have to go online, go to the website, log in, view the statement, select a payment route, and authorize a single payment. obviously, if the company developed a immoral streak, they could use my information and drain my bank account, but somehow i don't see these large multinational corporations wanting the measly sum from my bank account.

Speakeasy will take it anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

Chiming in here...

I use Speakeasy for home DSL service. You need a valid credit card to sign up initially; however, despite my not authorizing automatic payments, their agreement claims they "reserve the right" to auto debit your account, even if you haven't authorized it.

Um...

And they have, and I received fees due to it sending one of my cards over the limit a couple of times.

I canceled that credit card, changed the account number and low and behold. the credit card company passes the charge from the old credit card to my new one.

My point: the financial business industry is designed to support their side of this, not consumers. They leave you utterly powerless.

People like Speakeasy should be taken down for these practices.

Weve done that for decades is Europe!

[tommyhj]

Automated payment of bills has been the norm here in Denmark for at least 10 years or more. Nobody pays bills manually here anymore, and if they do it's online. Actually it will cost you an extra fee (~ $5) if you don't use automatic withdrawal. You are always warned in advance what will be withdrawn, so you can act on it before it happens - and I have never had any glitches in the system, that wasn't my own fault. I have only paid one or two bills in my life on paper in the bank, and I'm 30 now.

I guess that technology and business innovation in USA is severely hampered by the very small amount of trust that regular folks put in banks and companies...

Comcast Bill Payment Is Crap

[KE4SFQ]

Listen to Comcast's policy:

I had automatic bill payment setup at Comcast where they pulled my bill amount from my checking. One month I receive a bill with a bunch of late charges, fees, and they stopped my introductory rates. I called and asked how can I have late fees when you pull my money automatically? They said it didn't go through, must have been insufficient funds. I called my bank, money was there and there was no record they attempted an ACH pull.

I called Comcast back and told them and they said they show that they didn't make an attempt to pull funds and proceeded to say their policy is that they are not responsible for pulling my funds and it is my responsibility to call them every month before my bill is due an verify they they actually did it!! THEY ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR FAILED ACH TRANSFERS EVEN IF IT IS THEIR FAULT!! Idiots!!!

I now use my bank' bill pay to pay all bills and don't allow anyone direct access to my checking.

I pay all my bills manually...

[rob1980]

... and just set reminders so I don't forget to pay them. There's no sense in trusting the company to get the job done right when they could have an accounting glitch and decide to debit your checking account 1 cent 3,400 times instead of just billing you for $34, or deciding you really owe $1500 instead of $15. Both of those can leave you in a world of shit with your bank, either through your bank's excessive use policies or through overdraft fees.

Belgium

[Potor]

In Belgium, I pre-authorize a specific amount to be taken from my every-day bank account on a specific day each month for my gas/electricity. They can take no more. I simply ensure there's enough money there on that date. Great system.

This is also possible for variable payments, but I don't authorize those, and pay those manually.

You can't revoke the permission

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm in Canada and use CIBC. I had a water heater rental company take the monthly payment directly out of my account. When I moved, they were still doing it and the new owner wasn't taking over the payment.

When I told my bank to stop allowing this, they told me that I couldn't revoke the permission . All I could do was pay the bank $12 per year to put a stop payment on the withdrawl .

I never let anyone new take money out of my account. The ones that already do it, still do, but nobody new. Banks get you coming and they get you going. My philosophy is to give them as little as I can, and use none of the services they offer because the number of strings attached to the end of the deal stretch on for miles.

how many damn bills are you paying?!?

[Geno Z Heinlein]

Why automate any of it?

It takes less than ten minutes a month to pay all your bills online manually. (Once you've done the initial setup, of course, which you have to do no matter which method you use to pay.) I pay essentials like electric and phone online, and ten minutes is a gross over-estimate of the time I spend doing it.

Let's say I automated all of that. I would still have to spend five to ten minutes a month just checking my accounts to make sure the payments had been made, posted in the correct amounts to my checking account, et cetera. Automatic payments would be a wash at best, unless you're the kind of person who doesn't do that sort of cross-checking and verifying... in which case, when I see you in front of the 7-11, no, you can't have any change.

The companies that want you to auto-pay want you to do so because their cash reserves are collecting interest somewhere, so every day they have your money and you don't is very profitable for them. I might consider auto-pay if I got that interest instead, but then the companies who want you to auto-pay probably wouldn't want it anymore.

Hard to turn it off

[Is0m0rph]

I had DirecTV on autopay and last week I was switching banks, called them up and told them to turn off autopay because there would be no money in the account. No problem turned off they said. 4 days later they charged the bank account with no money in it anyways. They will refund the overdraft fee but I'm not going back to autopay with them for sure.

FPL's system is full of bugs

[Carlosos]

My mother tried to change to online billing for her power bill with FPL (Florida Power & Light). First month worked by paying from her account, the next month my brother paid the bill, the third month my mother tried to use automatic payment using her account but the money was taken from my brother's account just because it was the last one that was used instead of the one that was configured with automatic payment. That caused my brother's account to go in the negative which meant we had to go to the bank and tell them that the charge was never authorized which than caused FPL to charge us a fine for not paying because their system made a mistake. After about 2 weeks fighting with them over the phone that their system made a mistake, we finally got the bill paid without the fine.
Two weeks later I heard about someone else at work that tried to pay a bill using two accounts (half using her account and the other half her husband's account). In that case FPL just took all the money for the bill from just her account which caused her account to go in the negative and she had the same problem like us with getting her money back and the fine waived.
After all that I heard from many other people about the same problem and now the safest way to pay the bill is doing by check instead of using the online payment system. FPL never said that it was their fault even if multiple people have similar problems.

All other company our family deal's with seems to be able to have a working automated bill payment and online payment system.

Payment Automation?

[Anonymous Coward]

I write checks. Next question.

My accountant advised me years ago that it was a really bad idea to allow anyone into your accounts. So, I took his advice and kept on doing what I'd always been doing, sending checks. Little less convenient, sure ... but a lot safer and there's at least some kind of paper trail. I've had enough crap happen to me on my credit cards over the years that I'd never let any company access my checking account. Cripes. Do you trust corporate America that much? I don't.

21st Century

[ed.markovich]

I know empirical data isn't proof but I have been paying bills on the net for years and it's been working very well. The basic setup is: all bills are auto-charged to a credit card. I review the card's statement at month end and xfer cash from Checking if everything's correct. This has a few benefits:

- cash back from the credit card on $ I'd spend anyway.
- no letters to mail / statements to be late on
- since cash only moves into the CC from checking acct once, I don't have to micro-manage my Checking balance throughout the month.
- CC statement represents a nice sum total of my monthly spending.

Not only have I not had problems with this, it actually makes sense financially:
    - save on stamps
    - money back on CC purchases
    - CC = interest free loan for a month

I also keep track of all my balances in Microsoft Money. That gives me a very good overview of my overall situation while the monthly CC statement gives me depth on each month's spendings.

Maybe this system isn't for everyone but it's been working for me for 6+ years.

How's life in the 1970s?

[upside]

My thoughts exactly. I'm from a Nordic country and studied in the UK in the 90's. I found it amusing to find everyone using cheques. I'd never seen a chequebook before. We'd been making bank transfers for years, mostly using ATM-type transfer machines found at banks and public areas next to ATMs. Bank charges make sure there are barely anyone goes to a bank just to move money. In the UK people were suspicious of giving their bank account numbers as direct transfers were a new thing for them, but didn't seem to think cheques were risky.

Internet banking had been adopted much earlier too, as banks had already offered direct modem connections for PC owners before the Internet. One time pads + PIN were used from the start, whereas my UK bank still uses a non-changing passcode today.

I hope this gives you an idea what I think about this thread. With my background, things like direct debit had never been an issue for me. I do check what charges are made from my account, but I don't see any inherent problem. I'd be much more worried about cheques.

What kind of payment automation do you use, and wh

[kcredden]

This should be a no-brainer. Its' called "Checks, and Money orders"

Yeah, I know, heresy

But the idea is simple. I don't trust big companies. They'll find some way to screw around with you, and having unfettered access to money is like candy to a child with an unlimited budget.

I've already had 2 leeches on my bank accounts. 1 was CCBillU, and I couldn't get rid of it. The other was SmartSave which was stuck on me, frauduantly. It required me to stop my debit card, and restart it, because the bank couldn't or wouldn't cut them off.

Companies say 'they won't sell your information' or such. Yeah, then a month later, they'll sneak in a clause in their fine print that gives them that ability, and how many people read these fine prints? 99% don't.

You cannot trust companies, folks, period.

Credit cards are good for emergencies, but other than that, no. If you so pressed for time, or just plain lazy, that you can spend 5 minutes writing a check and putting it in an envelope, then do you really need that service?

Of course most will blow this off, and those are the ones that may be the ones who get ID thief, or some other problem. Keep the power in your hands, and you'll be better off.

- Kc

When my bills are scheduled for auto-payment:

[Duncan Blackthorne]

17th of Never. I'll pay online because it's less hassle than having to write out checks every month and rely on our leaky, squeaky, un-reliable USPS, but nobody gets to automatically debit my account -- except my gym, which doesn't give me a choice in the matter, but that's only $20/month. If you're one of those people who have so much money that you don't even bother to keep debit/ATM receipts, balance your checkbook monthly, or even keep a checkbook register anywhere, and you don't have to worry about when someone debits your account, then I'm somewhat jealous of you (although I think you're idiots). For the rest of us, I need to be able to make the conscious decision between paying a bill on time and putting gas in the tank or food on the table. I'm sure creditors love auto-payment, but I personally think anyone who allows their income to be controlled by creditors is an abject idiot and you'll deserve it when you're broke because one of them fucked it up.

I'd like to add a very real story to this.

[plasmacutter]

1) Billing errors occur.

I recently had my student loan company double-bill me for the month, then call up and harass me, then accuse me of lying when I repeatedly insisted we paid our bill on time.

2 weeks later, after we faxed in our entire payment record (on PAPER, yes it still has a place with abusive bastards like this around), we finally got a letter absolving us of responsibility, but once again not even admitting a mistake.

Auto-debit in such a situation would have rendered us unable to pay the mortgage, and do you honestly think they would have been motivated to look into this at all if it weren't THEIR money on the line?

Re:It's done everywhere else, so why not in the US

[Renraku]

Not in America.

Both companies will deny fault, and at best, you'll get hung up on and not transferred to the manager you requested.

You'll be stuck with the overdraft fees.

You'll be stuck without the funds until you take them to court.

Ron Lieber must use amazing drugs...

[houbou]

Yeah, let all your creditors have automated access to your bank account, sure, because, hey, why should YOU be in control of your assets uh? I mean, son-of-a-beehive, it's way too much to fun to see these companies take your money, as they wish, left and right, than to be in control on your own. They never have any clerical errors uh? :)

Ron Lieber must have been on drugs, and I mean, the special kind of drugs which you and I can only dream of!

It's one thing to use online, electronic methods of payment, for which, I agree, does facilitate the job.

But unless you have a solid and secure stash, readily available at all time, automated payments are NOT the way to go!

All it takes is for you to go online, with your bank and set your payments and then, when the time comes and you've got the money, press the "Pay" button.

I'm not rich enough to have anyone else automatically take money from my account.

The only payments I'm forced to endure automatically, because I sent a blank cheque to these companies, so they are allowed to retrieve their payments on the 14th of each month is my car lease and my car insurance. And if I could have been in charge of that, and not had to give them a blank, I wouldn't have given it to them.

Beside that, everything else, I take control. But I wish I had a few millions stashed away, so that I could just have every bill set to be paid automatically. I would NEVER give the company the ability to retrieve it on their own, but I could set my bank account for bills to automatically pay at regular intervals.

Credit card

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a credit card that gives me 2% of my purchases as cash back at the end of the year. It's far far better than any "points" card, in that I get actual MONEY, not points that sit there unused. For bill payments, I authorize all my services to bill my credit card directly, then I MANUALLY pay my credit card bill each month, being sure to pay off the entire amount and to validate that the amounts agree with what my bills say. I've caught a number of companies (Telus, in particular) that have tried to rip me off by falsely billing me for services I have not used.

Good grief, doesn't your bank support billpay?

[SuperKendall]

Of course it's insane to give the ability to pull money to anyone but yourself.

Don't most banks support online billpay where the payments are SENT? My bank supports free bill payments, that I can set up a recurring payment schedule as I like and pre-set biller info for amounts that change month to month. The payments are sent electronically if possible, by check if not.

This is news?

[lpq]

This is news? On slashdot? Um...I haven't written a regular recurring monthly payment on any bill since the 80's. Automatic and electronic payment are pretty old tech. I think it started with my 1st credit card in the early 80's and my paycheck which was auto-deposited. Only ding on my credit report (gone now), from back in the late 80's on a store credit card that refused to take auto-payment.

How many of us got into computers exactly to have computers do mundane, repetitive tasks like this?

All direct widthdrawal

[richardtallent]

*ALL* of our bills are paid by direct withdrawal from our primary checking account, including our credit cards.

We receive bills in the mail, which we review them for accuracy so we can stop the train if there's a problem.

We've been doing this about 7 years, with ZERO problems.

My paycheck is also deposited electronically, and has been for about 11 years between two employers. Again, ZERO problems except one company that screwed up their EFT payroll account transfer once, which took a few days to sort out.

Contrast with the people I know who use "online payment" from their banks-- they pay fees for the service, have problems when electronic checks don't go out on time, forget to pay (just like when they used paper checks), etc.

Use your bank's billpay

[m.dillon]

Use your own bank's bill-pay service, if they have one. It's the only safe way to semi-automate the process, and it is best to not allow it to run fully automated. That is require that you at least review the bill and approve it before the bill is allowed to be paid. You have full control over when and how much is paid and to whom, and you can review your checking account balance at the same time to make sure you don't overdraft the account.

The other thing I would recommend is to use a separate checking account to pay your bills with. Do NOT pay your bills directly from an investment account. Ideally you want three accounts:

* Credit card account, preferably with the same bank you have your checking account with.

* Checking account for bill pay and check writing.

* Investment account for your savings.

* Retirement account, as appropriate for your situation.

All deposits go directly into your investment account. Set up an automatic transfer every 2 weeks from the investment account to the checking account to cover expected bills (this also has the side effect of giving you some spending discipline). Keep only enough money in the checking account to pay the bills, plus a little slop. Write checks off the checking account except for certain large non-monthly bills (such as your home insurance and property taxes). I would recommend folding the mortgage into the checking account too but it isn't a big deal. Pay the large bills with checks off the investment account. Use your credit card for as much as you can, since you get the most protection there, but pay it off every month and never use it for cash advances.

I recommend NOT getting overdraft protection for the checking account, and make sure the credit card account is not set up to autopay from your checking account without your monthly authorization. Do NOT get credit or debit cards connected to your investment account.

Here's the deal. EVEN THOUGH you get good fraud protection by law, the plain fact of the matter is that cleaning up after fraudulent use of your accounts can be a real mess. This is why you want to keep your investment, checking, and credit card accounts separated, and protect yourself on top of that by keeping limited funds in your checking account. Also do not let your bank increase your credit limit to values far beyond your monthly use... you can call them up and actually ask them to lower the credit limit. Believe it or not, this helps against fraud by making the credit card account less interesting.

Multiple credit card accounts are only useful if you need an additional card to receive some special benefit, such as airline miles. You can't run up balances on multiple cards any more these days without it triggering a credit event and causing the interest rate on ALL the cards to spike simultaniously, even if you pay some of them off. Frankly, it is best to have just one card, two at the most. I only have one.

Finally, if you are really paranoid, you can lock your credit report, preventing new accounts from being opened in your name without the express permission of some entity (a third party or your bank, typically). Banks have begun offering this service directly but either third-party or bank-offered services work, and offer the most protection against fraud. The most common type of fraud after credit card fraud is identity theft, where the thief opens up a new bank account or credit card in your name, runs up debt, then abandons it leaving a huge black mark on your credit report, liens on your possessions, and a mess for you to clean up.

-Matt

Automatic F*ckups~

[reydar]

My gf recently recently opened a pile of unattended bills that had been piling up. Since all of her bills are paid automatically, she doesn't need to be concerned about late or missed payments and subsequent bills sent in the mail are really just records of payment that need to be simply filed away. As such she discovered that she had been paying for two Electrical Utility bills, neither of which belongs to her, and she had been paying them for months. After several calls to the Hydro company and several customer rep's with varying degrees of skill and aptitude we thought we had it dealt with until we continued receiving bills for the offending accounts. Anyways, we are now going to cancel any automated payments and start "pay as you go" to prevent this from continuing on. Some companies cannot be trusted to handle automatic billing properly and cutting them off at their source is the only way to ensure the problem gets dealt with in a timely manner.

Not my bills....

[Anonymous Coward]

I have one bill which automatically debits from my checking account: my mortgage. I only do that because my mortgage and my checking account are at the same bank.

For every other bill, I pay online, initiated from my bank manually every month. Aside from the general objection to letting someone else stick their hands in my bank account, the time it would take to fix one screw-up would wipe out a lifetime of time saved. Even more so if the utility took their sweet time to recognize their error.

If you have never had a bill screwed up, you haven't been paying bills very long. I would rather wait to pay my bill as an incentive for a utility to fix the problem, than fight to get my own money back after the fact.

Moved decimal point?, bah.

[Kaenneth]

We once got a $13,000 water bill. The meter reader recorded '0' when the meter was blocked, under the old system that way a cue to estimate the next bill, under the new system, it assumed the meter had wrapped around...

My payment automation is Quicken

[wtansill]

I set up a schedule of payments based on each bill's due date. I have Quicken remind me that a certain bill is due 8 days before the scheduled date. When I get a reminder, I write a check and mail it, the 8 days serving as a buffer period for the uncertainties of snail mail. That's my "automation". I resort to electronic bill pay only if something very urgent comes up that prevents me from writing a check in time to mail a payment. Over the last five years I can count the number of such unusual scenarios on one hand.

oh grow up

[Anonymous Coward]

"In the huge majority of cases", unprotected sex does not lead to pregnancy and in a large number of cases it doesn't even lead to an STD -- but most folks still know you're absolutely stupid if you base your decision not to use protection on that.

For Risk Management you worry about the costs to mitigate or avoid the risk and the consequences if the risk is realized. If you're recently out of school and still can't afford to keep more than $500 in the bank then even the $3 and 30 minutes a month to write out paper checks is expensive compared to possibly losing all $500 to a corporate error. When you're more grown up and keeping $10-40K in the bank as a cushion against emergency house repair issues, then $3 and 30 minutes per-month is cheap insurance.

When you're older and have more to lose you'll understand.

Sadly, one of the benefits to living in more socialised countries like the U.K. or much of Europe is that the laws are more protective of individuals even when it pushes extra expense on companies. On the other hand, laws in the U.S. will screw a few individuals hard if the cost of avoiding that is non-trivial for a corporation.

Re:oh grow up

[clodney]

When you're older and have more to lose you'll understand.

But I am older and do have more to lose, which is why I am not so worried about an error. If a $100 bill turns into a $1000 bill it will still get paid. It if turns into a $10000 bill it will bounce, but at that point the error will be so obvious that I don't expect to have any trouble getting it sorted posthaste. I've been with the same bank for over 20 years, and while I am not a marquee customer their rating system is going to list me as someone they want to keep, so I don't expect a hard time dealing with something that is going to be an obvious screwup.

The analogy to unprotected sex is not valid in my mind, because the likely consequences of a direct debit error don't approach those of an unplanned pregnancy or an STD.

re:oh grow up

[Anonymous Coward]

if a $10000 bill would bounce, then you don't have much to lose yet.

Furthermore, you're still assuming that your bank will naturally agree with your report that a withdrawal was erroneous. If you've never dealt with your bank in this situation you can't assume they'll be more accomodating to you than the law requires ... and in the U.S. the law does not require them to be particularly accomodating.

Not that you're likely to be reading this reply, but in an unusually timely move here's http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/08/31/1856204.shtml/ a tale of how inflexibly un-helpful a bank was when a customer who does half a billion dollars of business with them was defrauded through the automatic payment deduction systems. When bank's refuse to bend from the bare minimum of help they're legally required to provide a defrauded customer of that magnitude, what on Earth makes you think they'll care about a customer who keeps less than $10K with them?

The gentleman in that report is now permanently out $200K which is, in point of fact, not far from the cost of an unplanned pregnancy (raising kids or paying child support is expensive) so the analogy is very apt.

NONE - I just write a cheque

[Ralph Spoilsport]

put it in an envelope, put a stamp on it, write the address, and walk to the fucking mail box next to the bus stop where I board 5 days a week to go to work.

It's not like it's some great huge pain in the ass. It takes all of maybe 20 minutes a month. I pay the mortgage, hydro, gas, credit card, and phone bill. Pretty simple, really. I don't see much advantage to automated systems.

RS

here's why AT&T said the bill was one day late

[Anonymous Coward]

Your bank's bill paying service didn't send AT&T the payment stub you received from AT&T and without the payment stub it can take additional time (no specified or legally-required limit, naturally) for the receiving company (AT&T in this case) to associate the money they took out of your bank account as being payed into your AT&T account's debt. I'd seriously bet that the terms of your bank's bill paying service included disclosure of this fact.

AT&T's still scum (for a myriad reasons, including sending your account to collections when your account was only one day late.
   

As a Canadian ...

[vorwerk]

... and having lived in California for a year (in 2005), I came to realize that the US banking system was a bit backwards compared to what I'd been used to.

In Canada, all of the "utilities" withdraw funds directly from my account -- gas, electricity, water, mortgage, telephone. If a company ever made a mistake, I can call up my bank and have them undo the transaction. There is no risk, in this regard. I don't go to sleep at night because the bank is on my side.

There are some companies that will charge my credit card; this includes my car insurance and my cable tv / cellphone / ISP. I like it when my CC gets charged because I get 1% cash back.

You're In Trouble, Mister!

[bill_mcgonigle]

Nobody has access to any of my accounts but myself. Not even my wife....The hassle of dealing with idiots like that

Seriously, though, you can do more when you delegate. Mitigating all risk has cost.

(they) used to claim that..

[Paracelcus]

"We didn't get your payment and now we're going to discontinue your (service)". IMHO 'cause the USPS can't deliver squat on time. Now if you don't take the money it's your own damn fault, I only keep enough money in that account to pay certain bills.

Watch out for inability to cancel pre-auth...

[PhotoGuy]

I had all my bills coming out of my account pre-authorized, years ago...

I got into a dispute with an ISP (I think it was, it was a long time ago, my memory is a bit hazy). I no longer wanted their service, and they kept billing me. So I called my bank to cancel my pre-authorization. They told me I couldn't do this without the permission of the billing party!

Now, there's a chance that this was incorrect information, but I've avoided pre-auth since then. If one party (the biller) suddenly has full rein on what they take from your bank account, and you have no recourse, and can not *stop* this pre-auth, then you are truly screwed in any dispute...

I was quite surprised. They even took two significant extra "setup" charges for a separate business I had, out of my personal account, that I swear I never authorized. They claimed my pre-auth allowed that.

Anyhow, the main point is, watch out what rights you are assigning in perpetuity when you sign any pre-authorization...

Re:here's why AT&T said the bill was one day l

[dpbsmith]

..."Your bank's bill paying service didn't send AT&T the payment stub you received from AT&T..." That's very interesting and it makes all kinds of sense. Thanks for the insight.

In other words, AT&T was paid on time but didn't know they'd been paid on time.

As for disclosure, I'm an inveterate fine-print reader and I doubt it was spelled out the way you explained it. But yes, I'm sure the "5 days" was just labeled as an estimate and there probably was no commitment to get it paid within any definite period of time at all. But if they estimate 5 days I think most people would have thought 10 days was pretty safe!

wait wait wait

[Spazntwich]

you paid for internet porn?

Re:wait wait wait

[subreality]

How'd I know that people would latch onto that? :)

But since you asked, yes, I've commissioned art. No, I'm not paying to download someone else's used electrons.

PayPal and me

[macaroo]

I have used PayPal ever since my Company's credit union instituted into their organization years ago. I usually set up a years worth of automatic payments in January only if the payments are of the same amount for the year to terminate at the years end. Other payees of varying amounts are in the system and are entered manually only after I receive the paper bill. Some annual bills; taxes, insurances etc. are still paid using the old fashion check. I don't like certain businesses having the ability to extract money from my accounts. Call it old fashion, but I like to have control on who gets what.

Averaged automatic payments

[Anonymous Coward]

I recently had an argument with my electricity provider, who I have been with for the last 6 years. I moved house and called them up to let them know that I'd like my account updated and service supplied at the new address. This hasn't been a problem in the past, I've moved house a few times with no issue.

I was told that I would have to pay a bond of NZD$250 because they would have to close my existing account and open a new one. So.. because it's a bond, do I get back the bond I paid on my existing account? Can I simply transfer that bond? Doesn't my previous six years of a perfect credit record count for something? No on all counts it seems.

I didn't get my previous bond back, which I'm still furious about, but the reason they insisted on requiring a bond in the first place is because I refuse to let them direct debit from my cash account. Back when I was a poor student, I couldn't be sure that I'd have the money, and I had useless flatmates that I had to chase constantly to get their share, yet I still managed to pull off a spotless record.

The reason now that I refuse to let them have-at my account is simply because I prefer to use averaged automatic payments to smooth out my cashflow:
* In winter, my bill might push up to NZD$120/month
* In summer, my bill might drop down to NZD$80/month
* Therefore, instead of starving by $40 in the winter months, I simply have an automatic payment of $100/month. I get a prompt payment discount of 10%, and in the summer months my credit builds up, which is chipped away at during the winter months.

The only "you owe us money plzpaikthx" letters I get now are in winter and for small amounts like $5.25, which I simply pay for using online banking.

This still doesn't stop my electricity provider from being a shower of bastards, but the net result is that the amount of cash I have after rent and bills is pretty consistent throughout the year. This means my alcohol intake stays pretty consistent, because if there's one thing worse than winter it's a winter without booze

No checks?!

[Roger W Moore]

As long as I don't have to pay with checks I'm good. I don't have checks and don't expect to need any either.

You don't have any checks on what you pay? Not checking what you pay is just asking for trouble. I always want to check what I pay which is why I use cheques.

Re:No checks?!

[RockDoctor]

As long as I don't have to pay with checks I'm good. I don't have checks and don't expect to need any either.

You don't have any checks on what you pay? Not checking what you pay is just asking for trouble. I always want to check what I pay which is why I use cheques.

It's an American. Forgive it it's eccentric approach to spelling.
I do have checks on what I spend. And I don't have a chequeing account. I shut down the chequeing account in about 1989. It's perfectly manageable, since most accounts can do DDs and/ or SOs regardless of whether or not they issue you with a cheque book.

Thing is - I'd been told that using cheques was much, much more common in America than in Britain. ME? I've been seeing signs declaring "we won't accept cheques after [DATE]" appearing in shops for over six months now, and the effective shutdown of the paper chequeing system is looming in a matter of months now. BFD. Big deal. Not.

Re:No checks?!

[RockDoctor]

The problem is that many utility companies, and other things you have monthly bills for, either don't have electronic payment options at all or they have a $5 fee for using a credit card. I use my chequing account for about 12 payments a month, electronic or otherwise, for those reasons. PS: I used your old-fangled spelling to avoid confusion ;)

What possible reasons, apart from administrative incompetence, love of the old-fangled or the desire to keep their employment costs high, could your utility companies have for not accepting electronic payments? After all, it's not as if utility companies are going to be small organisations, so they've not got the excuse of it being too complicated. It's just another way of getting payments made.
This thread reminds me : I've got a birthday present cheque from Dad sitting in my wallet. I'm going to have to make time to go into one of those bricks-on-mortar bank buildings some time in the next month or so. I think the last cheque I had to deal with was for the previous birthday.

Too little faith

[Nuitana]

I don't automate any payments, as that would take much more faith than I have. I pay bills online whenever possible, using bank Bill Pay or bank debit cards. I have two banks especially for the risky internet, meaning PayPal and debit card transactions. I actually love PayPal because I feel that it protects me as a buyer. I don't keep much money in it, but of course it can access the two banks I have registered with them. And they have limited funds in them.

Re:The banking system of the US is completely f***

[Anonymous Coward]

... At the time I was a student so saving money by any means... Nope, it was a one off check account at 12:00AM. No money is sent ever, no notice is sent, just nothing.

I agree with the subject of this thread, with respect to automatic payments. I'm on the receiving end--a student requested my bank account number and sent me USD500 using his bank's "pay anyone" electronic option. I'm the treasurer of a small co-op that student teams join (perhaps 10 payments a month). While the USD500 did appear in my account, there was no record or trail to identify the payer, it wasted a lot of my time tracking things down. Many other similar stories from receiving money from students and universities around the world by wire or other electronic means.
I now only accept USA checks (even from foreign teams), or if they can't get a USA-system check written, they can send me the USD500 by Western Union (which gives me a check when I collect payment.)

automatic payments...not so much...

[redcore]

I tried to do that for awhile, but frankly I suppose I just have OCD about it and couldn't bear to trust them to do right by my payments - after all, many of these companies stand to profit from not making that payment on time. A few years ago, my brother had automatic payments going on Bank of America, and one day the payment was late because of some kind of holiday that their system didn't properly take into account - so he was charged a late fee and they basically told him that it's his responsibility to make sure payments go though. Then what the heck is the point of automatic payments? When their own system messes up they're still perfectly happy to take those late fees (he made enough of a ruckus to make them remove that fee, after a LOT of time on the phone with them though). I was using it a bit too - but I literally check my accounts 5-8 times a month to make sure I remembered to pay, so it really wasn't even worth waiting for their system to make the payment when I always log on in the beginning of the month to make the payment well in advance anyways. I do have a credit union account that takes my car payment out automatically - but they have a 7 day grace period, so it's a pretty safe bet that they'll get their payment and I won't get dinged or anything.

I never use debit card/direct-account access

[Anonymous Coward]

I never use debit card/direct-account access. Using credit card is a nice buffer, in that you have an opportunity to clear errors before you need to pay it.

Re:It's done everywhere else, so why not in the US

[Myopic]

Yeah. That sounds nice. In America, it's more like:

Me: "Hey, you guys charged my account improperly."
Them: "We don't care. Sue us if it's worth your time, which it isn't."

From the other side...

[jandersen]

Over here, on the other side of the water I think most people use Direct Debit, which means that you allow the creditor to take payments automatically from your account; but as a safeguard they must give you 10 days' notice every time, which gives you the opportunity to revoke the DD order before the payment goes out.

Aw c'mon

[goldcd]

I'm in the UK and like Direct Debit and try to shove as much as I can onto it. 30th I get paid, 1st all my bills get automatically slurrped out of my bank account.
Personally I only do it for the boring payments like utilities, council (local) tax etc, but it's handy for the other stuff. For example my credit cards get the automatic minimum - if I've not already made a payment that month. Normally I'd pay in full when the bill comes, but if I forget, the bill goes AWOL it means I don't get a penalty payment.
Now as everybody has mentioned, things can occasionally go wrong - but the point with direct debit is that you can reverse the payment with your bank, no questions asked. If you think too much has been taken "Reverse that" and you get your money back (and can then argue with the company that's just had the money snatched back from them).

Re:It's done everywhere else, so why not in the US

[tgross]

At least here in Germany there is an added incentive for the commpanies not to charge falsely. If the charge is recalled by the customer the charging company has to pay a recall fee. As far as i know this fee is 15 EURO. This is a substantial amount of money to loose on a false debit.

Because of this most companies are very fast in repaying money they charged falsely. I even saw a few disclaimers on invoices to call the company if something is wrong with the invoice and not to recall the money. This seriously changes the balance of power between customer and companies.

On the other hand some vendors are moaning that this gives to much power to the customer to order something and recall the money once the goods have arrived. To get there money they have to take legal steps or give the debt to a debt collecting agency. But such cases are rare as most customers are honest.

Only if the bank Agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed; and there's a specific guarantee with Direct Debit, a phone call to the bank will get the money back immediately and it's up to the bank to chase the creditor not you.

They will only get the money back for you like that if *they* (the bank) clearly made a mistake - eg the merchant claimed £100 and they gave him £1000. But if the merchant claims £1000, even though the bill should have been only £100, and the bank give him £1000, there is no mistake as far as the bank is concerned and they won't help you; it is between you and the merchant.

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[account_deleted]

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Re:AOL Too.

[Anonymous Coward]

The biggest offender of automatic withdrawals is AOL. Even after terminating service with them, they'll keep your
account active along with withdrawing from your bank account. The only way to terminate any ISP including AOL is
to close the account.

I talked to the local bank and said why they don't allow one, to login and get a list of pending bills, whereby I'd
click on the bills to approve them for payment vs. automatically paying them. They said, their system wasn't set up
for that. Moreover, they said, if an account overdraws, you'll be hit with the overdraft fee. There is nothing to
stop the bill collector from asking 2-3 days latter again to get paid (their computer does it automatically) and again
get hit with another overdraw fee. This keeps going on til you have money in the account to take. A friend of mine
who lives paycheck to paycheck likes auto-pay, but for each of his bills which may be about $10 each i.e. he sometimes
gets hit with three $20 overdraft charges for each bill. That is $60 for only $10 bill multiplied by 4 to 5 bills like
this and before long he owes more than his next paycheck. This not to mention that the bill collector plus the bank both
are getting the $20 charge each for each time each bill collector asks for money.

I've learned this lesson from him, that although the auto pay is easy, and the debit card is too, that one can very easily
lose control of ones money and not realize how fast it's being spent. The checkbook requires one to maintain the balance
and clearly tell one in black-n-white that don't buy the stuff one wants since you can't afford it. The alternative is to
get a credit card.

Norway laughs at this

[LostMyBeaver]

I'm an American living in Norway and for the past 9 years, I almost never have paid a bill. In fact, I've seriously considered just removing my mailbox and saying screw it since I don't actually care what is in it.

I receive all my bills electronicly. I have automatic payment for all of them and I set limits on how much each debitor can withdraw from my account before my personal intervention is required. I have an account I use for paying bills. Each month, when I receive my pay, electronically, I automatically transfer enough to cover all my normal bills and then some. the bills are then automatically paid and if there is a bill which is larger than I allow it, I receive an e-mail telling me that an unusal request has been made against my account.

I have never had paper checks in this country since 99% of all places I have been accept my debit card. The remaining 1% are the street vendors or the new startup places which haven't purchased or installed the machines yet.

It's always really funny to look back and remember how many late or accidentally unpaid bills I had in America. Actually, my credit report stateside was terrible since I had so many problems with the billing and banking systems. I also suffered the biggest problem of all which was that I refused to use the postal service.

Get off my lawn!

[Hognoxious]

That might work, if only I could remember to write things on it ...

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[account_deleted]

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Re:It's done everywhere else, so why not in the US

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, actually it works the same way in the US. I'm not sure why all the horror stories...