Designing The Ultimate Netbook

Harden writes "TrustedReviews has an interesting take on what the 'Ultimate Netbook' ought to be. From the article: 'How to solve a problem like the netbook? To my mind, despite nearly every manufacturer taking a stab at the thing, none has yet quite distilled my idea of what the Ultimate Netbook would be. This is partly because, until recently, not everyone had a clear understanding of what a netbook was meant to do, but also because manufacturers have all been far too busy jostling for market share to put a lot of thought into the finer details.' What would your Ultimate Netbook include?"

Comments

An Apple

[squarefish]

I hope they enter this field and I hope it's priced competitively. I think Apple does things right, whether it's an established product/model or not, the majority of the time.

Re:An Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

The good things about the netbook market are affordability, GNU/Linux and free software. Microsoft and Apple do not really have systems for that range.

An Apple Netbook wouldn't be affordable and it would include the usual Apple restrictions and digital rights violations. No, thanks.

Re:An Apple

[terraformer]

They have. It is called the Air. Just because it is large, doesn't mean it is not a netbook. I think the definition of netbook is wrong in that it requires something under a certain size screen (9-11 inches depending on who is talking).

Re:An Apple

[shaka999]

The question was asking what you would want in a netbook. Your only answer was Apple? They could make it out of cardboard and you'd still buy it.

Unfortunately I'd expect many would buy it...

Re:An Apple

[danwesnor]

An Apple Netbook wouldn't be affordable and it would include the usual Apple restrictions and digital rights violations.

You're talking about Apple circa 1992. The MacBook is quite affordable and doesn't have any "digital rights violations" that I can see.

Re:An Apple

[MrNaz]

Ultimate netbook: Second hand IBM ThinkPad X40.

* Full size keyboard vs eeePC's absurdly unsable plastic thing.
* Very good screen quality vs eeePC's wristwatch reject.
* Over 4h battery time running Xubuntu (I timed this with average use, this is *not* with the notebook sitting idle).
* Not much bigger than the eeePC, and still very light at 1.2kg.
* Super durable vs eeePC's plastic trashy case.
* Half the price of an eeePC.

I wish people would cut out this rubbish Netbook phase. Netbooks, at the moment, are overpriced reject hardware.

Until a netbook is at least as powerful as a 3 year old laptop, has usable input/output peripherals and is durable enough to take anywhere (after all, that's the point of the size, right?) then netbooks will be in my mind a total waste of time and money.

Re:An Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

"Oh hai I do not agree with the common definition so I shall be a dick instead."

gb2/wikipedia/

Re:An Apple

[Kentaree]

They have. It is called the Air. Just because it is large, doesn't mean it is not a netbook. I think the definition of netbook is wrong in that it requires something under a certain size screen (9-11 inches depending on who is talking).

Fits in nicely with average price range too...

Re:An Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

The closest Apple has come to having a lightweight notebook was the MacBook Air. Yea... I'm sure they can somehow get that price down to be competitive by cutting out the whole slew of extra features the Air has... oh wait... it barely has any...

Re:An Apple

[Tubal-Cain]

But..But... It would be... environmentally friendly! Yeah, that's it! How can you not see that whatever Apple does is ultimately good for all of us?

Re:An Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's not a netbook. A netbook is 1.) 10 inches or smaller, 2.) 3 pounds or lighter, 3.) has an SSD, 4.) runs a full operating system, 5.) has WiFi and a keyboard, 6.) 2 hours + battery time, and 6.) is under $600. The point is to have something that is easy to carry around, will run most undemanding applications, boots up quickly, and that you won't cry about losing or breaking. The MacBook Air is sui generis: it meets most of the design requirements for a netbook, but is 5X more expensive (with the SSD that I consider to be a requirement for the form) and has too big a footprint.

I think Apple's best response would be a flat tablet device, about 10 inches, with a touch screen and bluetooth to match up with the existing Apple bluetooth keyboard and mouse, running a full OS X, 64 GB of solid-state memory, 2 GB RAM, a single USB port, and with a docking station that acts as port replicator and stand, turning the tablet into a small iMac. Probably cost $899, so it wouldn't be a netbook, but would act as a bridge between the Air and the iPod Touch.

Re:An Apple

[pipatron]

Heh, I was just going to write this, but you beat me to it. Writing this on my X40 here. I have 7 hours of batterytime if I stretch it (no wifi, just coding and playing simple games).

Re:An Apple

[Glonoinha]

Or for that matter - the ultimate netbook for a given individual is pretty much ANY nice used laptop less than three years old.

I was seriously considering one of the new 1.6GHz Atom based Netbooks. The one with 1G of memory and either the 16G flash drive or the 120G IDE would run me $400~$450 new (including a legit license of XP, so I could reinstall that after playing with Linux on it to see which I liked better.)

Ended up finding a used Dell Precision M90 on Craigslist for $350 - machine was owned by an engineer that took very good care of his hardware, so this 1 year old machine ($2,600 new - dual core CPU, 2G RAM, 7200rpm hard drive, GigE NIC, Quatro FX 1500 video card, wifi, 17" LCD on a magnesium alloy frame, license for XP Pro) looks brand new. Battery holds a charge for an easy 2 hours. For 1/4th less than the cost of a new 9" Netbook.

Granted, this specific machine is a monster - I'm guessing 4kg including the 130 watt power brick, and 17" laptops aren't exactly small in size either - but it is a LOT of machine for the money.

Good clean used hardware - it's amazing the deals that are out there to be had.

Re:An Apple

[itsdapead]

I hope they enter this field

You mean like the Apple eMate from 1997?

Ok, its hardly a "netbook" - but ubiquitous WiFi and mobile internet weren't really on the menu in 1997. Actually, the failure of this, and also the Psion Series 7 might suggest that mobile web browsing was the missing ingredient needed to get the "small, cheap laptop" market off the ground.

As for the MacBook Air, I think Apple were a bit unlucky with the timing: it was clearly intended to compete with other "premium" ultra-compact laptops from Sony et. al. - instead, everybody seemed to put it head-to-head with the (brilliant, but more Fischer Price than Jonathan Ive) EEE PC 701.

Re:An Apple

[Aphoxema]

I don't think you're being fair, second hand you'll get that X40 cheap enough, but it sells for about 2000USD. You're really paying for a bit more then. The EeePC's obviously meant to be a cheap toy, and is priced respectively.

Re:An Apple

[itsdapead]

An Apple Netbook wouldn't be affordable and it would include the usual Apple restrictions and digital rights violations. No, thanks.

That would depend whether His Steveness envisioned it as a cut-down MacBook (i.e. a general purpose computer) or a souped-up iPod/iPhone (i.e. an appliance). The vast majority of those "restrictions and digital rights violations" bones of contention arise from the latter.

The only such issue I can think of with Macs is the restriction of OSX to Apple hardware - which nobody seemed worried about until the Intel switch and, IMHO, removing that would simply kill OS X.

Re:An Apple

[ThomConspicuous]

If they made it out of hemp, I would buy it

Re:An Apple

[Dun Malg]

I don't think you're being fair, second hand you'll get that X40 cheap enough, but it sells for about 2000USD. You're really paying for a bit more then. The EeePC's obviously meant to be a cheap toy, and is priced respectively.

But that's the whole point! A new EeePC is functionally inferior to a an old X40. The "new" price of an X40 is irrelevant.

Re:An Apple

[asavage]

You almost exactly described the eee pc 1000 except the eee pc 1000 has longer battery life. Mine gets about 5 hours of video playback and a few hours longer if surfing the net or word processing. A lot of people have commented that ASUS has lost touch with the netbook with the larger models but the 901 or the 1000 was exactly what I was waiting for. It is usable enough as a main computer while out of town for a few days and still light enough to carry around with you easily.

Re:An Apple

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

An Apple Netbook wouldn't be affordable and it would include the usual Apple restrictions and digital rights violations.

You're talking about Apple circa 1992. The MacBook is quite affordable and doesn't have any "digital rights violations" that I can see.

$1000+ isn't "affordable" in the sub $400 netbook category.

Re:An Apple

[Tony Hoyle]

lol. The air?

Too big. Thin != small. A netbook should be small enough to fit in a bag.

*way* too expensive. A netbook should cost $400.

Other specs don't really matter. 3G built in would be nice (that's starting to happen) as the USB dongles look ugly sticking out of the side.

Re:An Apple

[terraformer]

So really then the definition of a netbook should be too small to use and too cheap to be of any use. Is the Air way too much for what you get? Yes, but price should never be a characteristic of a class of devices unless the scale is based solely on luxury. Is it too big? No. If an asus is too big to fit into your pocket, you may as well make it big enough to use comfortably. The Air fits in a bag and frankly it fits into what most people use as brief cases these days and not much bigger than a a few legal pads stacked together. Why a netbook needs to be thicker but with a smaller screen size is beyond me. The function between what you call a netbook and the Air is the same. A small, light portable PC with enough capability to run office and communications applications. That's the function. The bulk of this std definition is about physical characteristics which are not germane (or are tangentially) to the actual function. If you can get the same function in various packages, they are the same thing.

Re:An Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

If it was cheap and lightweight and made of cardboard, it would make an interesting ornament.

Re:An Apple

[dgatwood]

Couldn't disagree more. A full size notebook is not good enough for people who want a netbook. If you've ever flown coach, the reasons are obvious. With a typical laptop, if you place it on your tray table and open the screen to a comfortable viewing angle, the edge of the screen neatly tucks in where the tray table was with very little extra space. This becomes a problem only when the person in front of you leans back and your screen gets compressed between the back of the seat and the tray table. In a panic, you have to yank the computer out of there or risk the screen breaking.

I desperately want a laptop that is about 1.5 inches shorter off the table when fully open so that it isn't at risk when using it on a tray table. A netbook would be perfect for that. Here's what I want in a netbook:

• Extended battery life for long flights.
• Swappable battery for long flights.
• Don't care about weight.
• Don't care about thickness except as it affects height.
• Total height when open should be at least 1.5 inches shorter than a Macbook.
• EIther FireWire 400 with power or a built-in CompactFlash-compatible reader---the USB readers suck in my experience and I like to be able to back up photos while on the go.
• Sufficient external port power to drive an external laptop HD (again, ideally, through FireWire).
• ExpressCard port for when I need a port that it doesn't provide.
• Two USB ports.
• Wired ethernet. Too many hotels I've stayed in recently don't have wireless or charge extra for it.
• Low thermal output. I want to use this on my lap comfortably.
• Must support at least 2GB of RAM.
• Must not have soldered RAM on the motherboard. I've had lots of trouble with motherboard RAM going bad, so I like my RAM replaceable, thanks.
• 64-bit-capable Atom CPU for maximum viability.
• Mac OS X support.

There's my list as a frequent traveler. In other words, a size-reduced (screen-border-reduced) MacBook with ExpressCard, no optical drive, and an Atom CPU instead of a Core 2 Duo CPU.

Re:An Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, His Steveness is not a pioneer in restrictions. iTunes is DRM free, AppStore does not exist, EULAs are very reasonable (for example you can use software you own on any hardware), iPhone can be legally used in any network, developers do not have to sign NDAs.

Re:An Apple

[oakgrove]

Not attacking your basic thesis but, in the time honored tradition of slashdot car analogies, a slightly used Toyota Corolla would cost less than a bramd new Chevy Aveo and probably last a lot longer too but many people just have to have something that hasn't had any previous owner barring the factory and the distributor.

I'm also jealous. You got a smoking deal on that laptop.

Re:An Apple

[oakgrove]

the USB dongles look ugly sticking out of the side.

I always wonder at this when people bring it up. When I got my 3G modem from Verizon, I specifically got the USB720 USB dongle for the specific reason that it is what it is. An easy way to get any computer on the internet that has nothing more than a USB port to stick it in. I can't tell you how many times I've run different desktops and laptops with it while troubleshooting to get them on the net for drivers, software, etc. Most modern Linux distro's have drivers for it built right in. I believe OSX does too. Of course, Windows doesn't but, I just boot a live CD to work with those. In fact, my Intrepid CD is zero config. You just load it up on the Live CD, plug in the modem and click connect. You don't have to tell it /dev/usbtty0 or whatever it is, you don't have to type in #777 or anything, it just works. I have no interest in a built in 3G modem that can only be used on the particular hardware it came on. Just added expense in my (net)book.

Re:An Apple

[jonbryce]

I'm not sure netbooks are good for gnu/linux. They are positioning it as an almost operating system for people who are too cheap to buy a real computer. That's not a good long term position to be in a marketplace.

Re:An Apple

[jonbryce]

Depends what you are looking for. Your 17" is more of a desktop replacement than a portable. I prefer something I can carry around without breaking my arm, and my hardware performance requirements aren't that great.

Re:An Apple

[MrNaz]

I am a frequent traveler. I use my ThinkPad X40 for when I'm on flights, going to conferences etc, and my ThinkPad T61p for heavy lifting such as long coding sessions, graphics work etc.

Extended battery life for long flights.

My X40 gives 4 - 5 hours on a charge.

Swappable battery for long flights.

Check.

Don't care about weight.

Check, hence I travel with two laptops, one in my carry on (X40) and the workhorse in check baggage. I'm a pro at packing my stuff around the laptop, 10 long haul flights and no damage to it yet. Helped also by the fact that ThinkPad's are built like tanks.

Don't care about thickness except as it affects height.

The X40 is no MacBook Air, but were I spending that budget I'd get a X300.

Total height when open should be at least 1.5 inches shorter than a Macbook.

No idea how big a MacBook is, but the X40 is pretty small so I doubt it'll not meet this.

EIther FireWire 400 with power or a built-in CompactFlash-compatible reader---the USB readers suck in my experience and I like to be able to back up photos while on the go.

Hey, I thought we were talking netbooks here? The X40 doesn't have firewire, but since when is that a concern on a small and light aircraft companion? For reading CF cards, get a $5 card reader, they're diminuitive these days, and weigt in at about 20g. The X40 has a built in SD/MMC reader, the T61p can also do the MemoryStick range IIRC.

Sufficient external port power to drive an external laptop HD (again, ideally, through FireWire).

You're having a different discussion here. No netbook will do this.

ExpressCard port for when I need a port that it doesn't provide.

Dude. NETBOOKS.

Two USB ports.

Check.

Wired ethernet. Too many hotels I've stayed in recently don't have wireless or charge extra for it.

Check. Both ThinkPads have RJ45 ethernet and RJ12 modems built in.

Low thermal output. I want to use this on my lap comfortably.

Check, the X40 runs quite cool, and is dead silent.

Must support at least 2GB of RAM.

NETBOOKS! But yes, it does. What are you doing that requires >2gb of ram that also doesn't thrash the battery life?

Must not have soldered RAM on the motherboard. I've had lots of trouble with motherboard RAM going bad, so I like my RAM replaceable, thanks.

Dunno about this one,

64-bit-capable Atom CPU for maximum viability.

Stop smoking crack.

Mac OS X support.

I said stop it with the crack already. MacBook Air is your only option for a small netbook here, and I think everyone agrees at this stage that the MBA is a product birthed from pure stupidity.

Your wants are not met by the current crop of products. You seem to want desktop performance in a netbook size unit, with the full flotilla of ports and no compromise in battery life when doing heavy duty work. Even if I were willing to pay big dollars for a netbook, which by definition is a *secondary* machine, there is no product that solves the absurd mix of wants in your list.

The X40 is a good tradeoff given the niche that the netbook is supposed to fill. When you're asking for does not exist, and if it did, I doubt it'd be anywhere NEAR the price range we're talking about here with netbooks.

Re:An Apple

[LordVader717]

The Macbook is no Netbook, and the Macbook Air is more than four time what Netbook owners would consider "expensive".

Re:An Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

* Full size keyboard vs eeePC's absurdly unsable plastic thing.

Bah. I can touch type with it so that puts it above PDAs and smartphones while I wouldn't use it for serious coding (various misplaced keys) so it goes below real keyboards. Hmm.. that's the same class as just about every laptop keyboard in existence.

* Very good screen quality vs eeePC's wristwatch reject.

1024x768 vs 1024x600. When you take the size into account EEE actually has higher dpi. I doubt X40 has IPS so beyond that that quality difference isn't significant.

* Over 4h battery time running Xubuntu (I timed this with average use, this is *not* with the notebook sitting idle).

I'll give you that:(

* Not much bigger than the eeePC, and still very light at 1.2kg.

Twelve versus nine not much bigger? I already think the 10-inchers are too big for my taste. I don't want to carry a backpack around.

* Super durable vs eeePC's plastic trashy case.

And has a hard disk. Do you know what a head crash is and how to make one? Yeah, moving around your netbook when it's doing something.

* Half the price of an eeePC.

Used. Apples, oranges.

But hey, works for you != works for me.

Re:An Apple

[LordVader717]

I never understand how some beefy numbers on hardware influence their buying habits so much, as if bigger numbers = happier purchase. Most people who buy a netbook know they won't be needing huge RAM, a power hungry hard drice, fancy graphics or a huge screen. OTOH the very small profile has a huge impact on how they use and work with the machine.

As far as I'm concerned, anybody who I hear bragging about their hardware should justify what they need it for to maintain credibility.

Re:An Apple

[Albanach]

developers do not have to sign NDAs.

If that's the case, can you explain why when Apple rejects an app from their app store, even their rejection letter is protected by an NDA?

So if you've told people your developing an app, you then can't tell them why it has been rejected or even that it has been rejected. Access to the SDK requires you to agree to an NDA.

Re:An Apple

[LordVader717]

It's still pointless to compare new to used though. Give it time and you'll be able to pick up used eeepc's for cheap too.

Re:An Apple

[LordVader717]

You're last requirement's a bummer.

Re:An Apple

[FunkyRider]

WTF is your point? Go pursue everyone buying second hand computer? Come on get a life!

Re:An Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Your irony detector needs adjustment.

Re:An Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

* Very good screen quality vs eeePC's wristwatch reject .

* Super durable vs eeePC's plastic trashy case .

You seriously need to learn some basic debate skills. Although all your points are valid, these pathetic cheapshots make you come across as some basement dwelling permavirgin neckbeard. And, no matter how technically correct the neckbeard might be, no sane person ever sides with a basement dwelling permavirgin neckbeard

Re:An Apple

[LordVader717]

The only such issue I can think of with Macs is the restriction of OSX to Apple hardware

Yeah, that's a pretty major restriction there.

which nobody seemed worried about until the Intel switch

Well DUH...

and, IMHO, removing that would simply kill OS X.

The same as removing DRM from music would "kill" the music industry?

Re:An Apple

[LordVader717]

Size is still a major issue in that device class (probably in any really). The eeepc can easily and safely be held in one hand, fits into a small bag, and doesn't take up space you'd use otherwise.
Price is also very important. We had very small subnotebooks for years before, but they were expensive as hell. People expect smaller but less powerful equipment to be cheaper, quite rightly IMO.

Re:An Apple

[Mista2]

Screen should be touch and able to rotate into tablet format.
Battery should be removeable (and run for a minute or two while battery being replaced)
Memory should be user upgradeable.
SD or storage slots should be lockable or be covered.
At least 3 USB ports.
Linux supportable 3G card inbuilt as a goot option.
Should be built rugged like a cellphone.
Heat should be piped out away from the palm rests and base of the net book.
My perfect keyboard would be a mini aluminium mac keyboard 8) Rigid, quiet, big key surface.
Small external display and external power button would be nice, but I guess getting outside of the cost of a netbook.
Good linux support for all of the hardware. Ship binary blobs if necessary!
The Acer Aspire One is the best compromise I have found so far, I just wish the hardware support was better for the SSD card version in Ubuntu. It's far too slow and can corrupt when suspending or hibernating. 8(

Re:An Apple

[NeilTheStupidHead]

My eee fits in my pocket, maybe you need new pants or a new jacket.

Re:An Apple

[Glonoinha]

Oh I wasn't bragging - I was just pointing out that at the $400 price point there are PLENTY of used machines out there that will overwhelmingly meet the individual needs of a prospective buyer.

I thought I wanted to get a Netbook, but in reality what I wanted was a nice $350 multi-media capable 17" laptop with enough horsepower run multiple virtual machines in VMware when I want, and portable 'enough' to take with me on trips as a portable desktop replacement - including playing the occasional game of STALKER or MS FlightSim 2004, and jacking into the 'net via Wifi when I want to get caught up online.

A used laptop is really hard to beat with respect to usability / price. That's all I was saying.

Re:An Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, for a net book for me, weight and thickness are no issure though the ram and Mac OS support i dont see need for. Just fairly small and cheap, with web browsing ability lots of ports for external devices and long battery life and preferrably also swappable batteies.

Re:An Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

"WTF is your point?"

That netbooks are overpriced and stupid, and that people buying them have more money than sense.

Re:An Apple

[danwesnor]

And you are not talking about Apple's laptops or desktops, just the iPhone and and Touch. There are no restrictions on developing software for their computers. Also, you are free to play DRM-free music and movies on any of their devices.

Re:An Apple

[danwesnor]

For those of you whose reading comprehension is not up to par, we were talking about netbooks, not the iPhone. And I was offering up the MacBook as something Apple made that is affordable. The MacBook is not their netbook, and neither is the Air. The Air is clearly positioned as a boutique product, so why quote its price as proof that Apple can't make anything affordable? Apple's computers are made in the same plants as everyone else, so there is no reason the could not produce something as cheaply as everyone else. I have no doubt that Apple could produce a ~$500 netbook, I just see no reason why they would want to.

Re:An Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Few points:
* Use a ThinkPad's keyboard. Actually go and find one, and type on it. Nothing will ever compare after that.
* 12" vs 9" is a difference, but the tradeoff in capability is worth it for my uses.
* The screen on the eeePC is barely readable. The first gen were so bad that it defies belief it was a product from after 1995. I have no problem with high DPI screens, I've used a P series Fujitsu lifebook, which is 12" with 1280x768 res.
* You can replace the X40s hard disk with a 32gb SSD and still be less than the price of a new eeePC.

Also, whether its new or used is, in my calculations anyway, irrelevant when deciding how much value you're going to get out of it. If I can get more value out of a used item than a new one, the fact that it's used does not count against it. In fact, I get a better feeling knowing that I'm doing recycling the proper way.

Re:An Apple

[dgatwood]

The Thinkpad in question should be only about half an inch shorter when opened, assuming the hinge design doesn't eat any of that difference.

But to answer your questions, my goal in a Netbook is to have the capability to do the sorts of things I need to do when I get somewhere. That means being able to power an external portable drive for when the handful of GB of flash storage won't cut it (which is pretty much always). It would be a bit nuts to carry a smaller, lighter Netbook to use on the plane if I'm just going to have to haul around a second laptop for when I get where I'm going to actually be able to do anything useful.

Regarding the 2 GB of RAM, you really don't want to page to a flash drive, so you really need enough RAM to keep paging to an absolute minimum or you are wearing out your hardware. Also, when a bare-bones boot of Mac OS X takes about half a gig by itself (600 megs right now with one Safari window and one Terminal window open), a gig is an absolute minimum even if you aren't worried about paging traffic wearing out your flash drive.... 2 GB seems like a reasonable compromise. My current laptop has 3 GB.

Regarding 64-bit Atom, no, I'm not smoking crack. The desktop Atom variants support x86-64. IMHO, designing a new computer with a 32-bit CPU is like designing a car that required leaded gasoline after they announced that they were phasing it out....

Regarding ExpressCard, it doesn't seem that extreme to me. It's not like we're talking about a huge chunk of board real estate---you are likely to have a PCI Express chipset anyway, so it's pretty much a trivial amount of silicon plus a connector---and with the space you gain from ditching the optical drive, I think it's a perfectly reasonable addition that doesn't add much to the cost.

Re:An Apple

[JohnBailey]

I'm not sure netbooks are good for gnu/linux. They are positioning it as an almost operating system for people who are too cheap to buy a real computer. That's not a good long term position to be in a marketplace.

You mean like when Microsoft made an OS for people too cheap to buy an Apple or one of the *nix variants for a desktop? When Microsoft started off first, one of the computers they were keen to get MSDOS on was the Amstrad PC clones. They actually approached Amstrad, because they were clued in enough to know that if they got it running on as many computers as possible, they would have more users. Same applies to Linux. It is on my router, my web tablet, my PC and my laptop. And there is also a fair chance it is on my TV. The more the merrier. Apart from the Mac and the iPhone, how many places is the reassuringly expensive OSX? Nothing wrong with cheap. Especially considering the possibility of replacing "Linux.. Ohh that's the really complicated one that places like NASA use" with "Linux.. Oh yeah.. I used it on a netbook a friend of mine had?"

Re:An Apple

[MrNaz]

As I said earlier, the X40 I suggest competes against current netbooks, not your contrived imaginary UtopiaBook.

Netbooks will never be as powerful as full sized laptops, there will always be a relative difference.

Until technology gets to the point where netbooks can replace laptops fully in the way laptops can replaced desktops today, netbooks will never be a full computing solution.

As for the 64 bit comment, I disagree. There is no software on the market, barring scientific software and some heavy duty multimedia transcoding stuff that uses 64bit for any real advantage, and if you're doing either of those things on your netbook then, well, you're smoking crack. Perhaps in a few years, but not today.

I still don't understand your point here. The article says "Netbooks FTW". I said "Second hand X40s are the smarter choice". You said "My imaginary device is better than both!".

Re:An Apple

[dgatwood]

My point was to disagree with your statement that Netbooks had no purpose. They do---the screen size on airplanes, specifically. The rest of my post wasn't in any way related to the X40, but was addressing the original article question, which asked what I would put in a netbook type of device if I were designing one for myself.

Regarding 64-bit, many apps show a significant performance advantage when compiled for x86_64 over x86 due to the extra registers available. In a processor with no instruction reordering, register renaming, or speculative execution, I would expect that performance win to be significantly greater.

Also, Windows Server 7 is expected to be solely available for 64-bit architectures, though the client version (Windows 7) is expected to be available for both 32-bit and 64-bit machines. Whether that is still true by the time it ships or not likely depends on how many years it takes them to get it out the door. In any case, I would be very surprised if Microsoft continues to maintain all that legacy 32-bit CPU support much past Windows 7. Just my gut feeling.

Re:An Apple

[itsdapead]

Yeah, that's a pretty major restriction there.

Major? Its only remotely of concern to people who want to build their own "hackintosh". If you actually buy a Mac, this is no restriction at all - c.f. the iPhone where Apple and the phone company do seem to reserve the right to tell you what you can use your iPhone for.

The same as removing DRM from music would "kill" the music industry?

Removing DRM probably will kill the music industry as we know it, and the world will be a better place for it - they've been stifling it for years.

OTOH, Apple's ability to tightly link its OS to its hardware, and to use sales of premium-priced hardware to bankroll software development, has led them to be a major source of innovation in an industry otherwise dominated by a fat, lazy monopolist. The only market for commercial "hackintoshs" would be customers who would otherwise have bought hardware from Apple - they'd be wiped out and take one of the few serious competitors to Windows with them.

Re:An Apple

[MrNaz]

(Replying anon to not further dilute my karma)

Well, I've traveled with my x40 on *many* long and short haul flights, and I've found it small enough that the extra cost and vastly diminished performance more than make up for the slightly larger size. My point wasn't that netbooks have no purpose, it was that, they are overpriced when other options are considered. In other words, the x40 does represent a compromise on the "get the smallest possible computer" front, but makes up for it with greater CPU power, more ram, better screen and better keyboard.

If your use calls for the the smallest unit at any cost then that's where our use cases differ.

Our use cases also differ in that OpenOffice, Thunderbird, Firefox and my coding text editor are not accelerated by a 64 bit OS. If your netbook use involves apps that benefit from 64bit then again, that's a difference in our uses.

Re:An Apple

[MrNaz]

s/diminished/improved

I re-wrote that sentence and got confused with how it was being worded.

Re:An Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, some users might prefer a laptop over a netbook. But it's wrong to say that the ultimate netbook is a used laptop. The ultimate netbook probably won't be 17", and won't weigh over 3kg. It'll be small and light. That's what a netbook is. A big, heavy, or expensive laptop is not a netbook.

Re:An Apple

[LordVader717]

Major? Its the primary concern to people who would like another alternative to Windows but don't want to spend an arm and a leg on expensive hardware they don't need.

There, fixed that for you.

If you actually buy a Mac, this is no restriction at all

Yeah, DRM is no restriction at all. You just have to avoid doing the things it won't let you do and there is absolutely no restriction to think of. /sarcasm

Removing DRM probably will kill the music industry as we know it

Actually it can't, because DRM on audio is totally ineffective. On an OS OTOH, it can be quite effective.

The only market for commercial "hackintoshs" would be customers who would otherwise have bought hardware from Apple - they'd be wiped out and take one of the few serious competitors to Windows with them.

Without going into too much speculation from here, I think it would be safe to say that removing the hardware restrictions from OSX would open it up to a whole load of new markets and would have a much better chance of competing.

How that woul affect their profit margins at the Hardware Devision is another issue. Most of their revenue comes from iPods and iPhones nowadays anyway.

Re:An Apple

[dgatwood]

Actually, all the apps you list are fairly typical, largely unoptimized apps. Most apps (with the exception of apps with lots of hand-rolled assembler code) get about a 5% performance boost from going x86-64 (at least on Core 2 CPUs). Frankly, I'd be amazed if you didn't see at least a slight speed benefit from 64-bit with those apps. Whether it was enough for you to actually notice it or not is another question. I've never benchmarked 32-bit versus 64-bit on an Atom, so I can only speculate.

As I said, though, I would expect the win to be greater because the CPU can't do nearly as much lookahead in prefetching data into registers, so having more registers can allow the code to be optimized for the Atom with a larger prefetching window than would be possible in the remarkably limited register set of the i386 architecture. Of course, the amount of boost you would get will likely depend in large part on whether you compile your OS (or at least your apps) with optimization settings appropriate for the Atom.

Re:An Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Batteries on a 3 year old laptop are usually shot, too. And so expensive that you'd end up paying as much as a new netbook to get a new battery along with an old laptop.

Easy

[antifoidulus]

one that can transform into either a Decepticon or a Hooker bot, and is smart enough to know when to turn into each of those.

Re:Easy

[Hal_Porter]

ARM CPU=PDA. x86 CPU=Netbook. Mind you a Snapdragon PDA/Phone with a QWERTY keypad would be a handy device.

Re:Easy

[Anonymous Coward]

If I can't use my favorite apps on it without recompiling, it's not worth a dime.

Re:Easy

[Provocateur]

I better start practising my delivery of the lines

"Back off, pal. She's with me."

Didn't realize it would become a netbook requirement.

Re:Easy

[TheRaven64]

ARM CPU=PDA. x86 CPU=Netbook

Netbook is a trademark owned by Psion. They only produced one product using this trademark, and it had an ARM CPU.

Re:Easy

[TheRaven64]

Recompiling an app takes a few minutes. Being unable to use the app because you're using a power-hungry architecture and your battery is flat makes the device worthless.

Re:Easy

[i_liek_turtles]

What about a Decepticon hooker?

Re:Easy

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about a Decepticon hooker, but they had a bitch.

Re:Easy

[petermgreen]

That depends on the application and the architecture. Not all apps are cross compilation friendly so often you have to either build on the architecture you are targetting or build in an emulator. With architectures like arm that can take some time even if you are actively looking to buy the fastest arm hardware on the market to do it on.

Re:Easy

[computechnica]

With the Four hour life on my Dell Mini 9 I get to Linger Longer near elementary schools-

Yours, Uncle Paul

Re:Easy

[jaakennuste]

Hey. There are different ultimate notebooks in every size category. Jaak http://seoapplied.blogspot.com/

Re:Easy

[Geminii]

Ooo! Waspinator have planzz for hooker-bot!

The OS is obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows Ultimate of course.

Thus sayeth Bender

[jaminJay]

What would your Ultimate Netbook include?

Blackjack...

...and hookers!

Re:Thus sayeth Bender

[rootofevil]

in fact, forget the netbook!

Re:Thus sayeth Bender

[owlnation]

and forget the blackjack too...

Re:Thus sayeth Bender

[slashbob22]

Ahhhh... Screw the whole thing.

Re:Thus sayeth Bender

[KGIII]

And bite my shiny metal ass!

Re:Thus sayeth Bender

[L4t3r4lu5]

You make a compelling arguement, guys!

Cheap.

[Darkness404]

The Netbook needs to be cheap. Preferably in the $150-250 range. It should have a low to medium-end CPU, at least 256 MB of RAM and should run Linux (or if it has a high-end CPU at at least 512 MB of RAM, XP). It should have Wi-Fi out of the box, and a decent video card. It should have a minimum of 3 USB ports, and should be relatively shock resistant.

Re:Cheap.

[Zashi]

Bingo. On top of what the parent said, it should also be small (less than 12.1" screen) and lightweight with a battery life of at least 3 hours.

Re:Cheap.

[Threni]

I'm not sure how much of a PC you're going to get for $150. I'm in the UK, and that's currently roughly £75. You'll get fuck all for that.

For £200-250 you can get something like what you're after. I went for the Acer Aspire One - £250 ($500) for a 1KG, 1gig ram, 120gig hd Intel Atom based PC running a customized version of Fedora on a 9inch 1024x600 screen. It has Wifi and a webcam, a well usable keyboard and a touchpad, and the OS has been made extremely easy for non-nerds to use (ie single click access to brower, email, open office etc. There's a rapidly growing community working on ports of the major Linux distros to it, although it'll be some time before those versions boot in the 20-odd seconds mine takes, or support the hardware out of the box. You can always plump for a Windows version but for me this was a chance to kill a few birds in one go: portable access to my work pc; gain familiarity with Linux; a cheaper (!) alternative to the black and white ebook readers sold by the likes of Sony and Amazon; handy way of dumping photos from my camera when on the move etc. I can't recommend it enough. The battery life could do with improving (2 hours or so isn't too hot) - they're working on a more powerful battery but you can wait forever with tech stuff, can't you!

Re:Cheap.

[amdpox]

Yes, the original concept was to keep it cheap, and all the manufacturers seem to have thrown it out the window... I think it would be possible to get a 9" Atom model retailing for $200. However, personally I prefer the upper end of the netbook market - if I could get an 11" 1280x800 screen to suck up the 1000H's bezel, it would be an excellent machine. I'm surprised none of the manufacturers have pushed into the 11" range since Microsoft lifted the 10" limit on XP licenses - I can understand Asus not wanting to intrude upon their high-end U1s, but I would expect a move from someone else. 11" is the sweet spot, really - it's the point at which the keyboard becomes fully touch-type-able for just about anyone.

Re:Cheap.

[aliquis]

What is a decent video card? I guess something integrated? Because kind of even those are overkill vs 256MB ram.

Re:Cheap.

[pmontra]

Being cheap is always a good thing but notebooks have always been more expensive than equivalent desktops. Mobility and lightness come with a price premium. For this reason I think that netbooks will always be more expensive than an equally powerful notebook.

Said that, I agree with most of TFA but I really can't use track points. I'll never buy anything that doesn't have a touch pad. Bluetooth is a nice to have feature but not strictly necessary. The single most important feature is a 4+ hour battery life followed by lightness (max 1 kg) and a matte display for outdoor usage. Disk space is not so important: I may want to watch movies on a plane or a train but I don't have to keep them around for long. That makes 100+ GB HDs pretty useless and only detrimental to weight and battery duration. IMHO SSDs are a much better choice for this class of devices.

Re:Cheap.

[billcopc]

Keep in mind UK prices are atrocious on any imports, compared to the USA.

For $500 you can buy a cheap full-size Dell with a lot more horsepower than the Aspire One or any other so-called netbook. That's the problem.

Everyone still thinks portable means expensive, but the fact is today's laptops are mostly empty shells with cut-out motherboards. If we could do without I/O connectors on one of the sides, they could probably cut the board down to half the size of the chassis! There's no extra cost in "miniaturizing" the notebook, because the standard-sized guts are already small enough to make into EEE's and Aspire One's.

Once the netbooks are priced similarly to a used notebook of similar performance, that's when they will take off. For me, that's $200 or less. It's a laptop, I don't need it to do much... today's laptops are mostly used as thin clients - VNC, RDP, SSH, Citrix and web apps. That's not worth $500 to me.

Re:Cheap.

[Vu1turEMaN]

I know you'd love to keep it as simple as possible, and thats great...but... Can I atleast have a 2GB of RAM option on atleast one of them?!?! I know the cost would go up, but I could use it and would definitely pay for a netbook then. My ideal system would be 500-600$, Medium cpu, 2gigs of ram, the option to have preinstalled linux, xp, or both. Nice Wirless-N support out of the box, and a decent video card (that will never happen though...its either Intel junk or Via junk). I'd also love to see a system with 8gb of flash storage and a CF slot. I guess its a normal mini-notebook, just without a cd drive and has flash storage, but i'm not willing to pay 1500$ that they offered for those a few years ago just to have a small one.

Re:Cheap.

[Kent Recal]

I'd rather think 12" is the sweet spot.

That 0,9" added screen-size makes a surprisingly huge difference in terms of ergonomy and almost no difference in terms of portability.
Speaking from expirience here, as I own a Vaio TX5N (11.1") and a few MacBooks and Dells of various sizes.

When you start talking about screen-sizes below 12" then every tenth of an inch suddenly starts to really matter.
You probably wouldn't notice the difference between working at a 13,5" versus a 14" screen. But you will notice the difference between a 12" and a 11.5" screen and very quickly, too.

In my expirience anything below 12" is only for roughly 1 hour of work. After that it turns into a chore (eyestrain etc.). People with extraordinary eyesight may not have a problem working on screens smaller than 12" for extended periods of time but I'd claim that for people with average eyesight (to which I count myself - no glasses) 12" is the smallest comfortable size.

Re:Cheap.

[Eil]

1. Cheap
2. Powerful
3. Portable

Pick one.

That said, it sounds like the author of TFA doesn't really know what he wants, and/or doesn't understand how computers are built. On the first page, he bemoans the cheap plastic toy-like look of the Eee PC and others while praising the solid professional construction of the MiniNote and then finally concludes that a professional business-class netbook should cost the same as your all-plastic Eee PC. Good luck with that particular wish.

There are tons of other inconsistencies as well, such as stating that he doesn't need video capability but then later saying that HDMI would be nice, so he could watch videos on a TV. Wot?

Finally, I have a huge time trusting a site called "Trusted Reviews" when every page of the review contains a prominent ad to buy the Acer Aspire One netbook at the bottom with a link to shopping.trustedreviews.com. An impartial article, this is not.

Re:Cheap.

[hattig]

I'm not going to sling a 'cheap full-size Dell' into my bag everyday though am I? Lugging around 6lbs of poorly designed fragile laptop isn't my idea of fun. 2lbs of cheap netbook is far better.

The Aspire One is £220 in the UK (512MB, 8GB, Linux) which is £188 before tax, which is $346. I think that if they can cut £50 / $90 off the price then it will become really attractive, but that will be next year sometime and will probably require another level of integration from Intel.

Re:Cheap.

[jopsen]

I guess there's European prices and environmentally irresponsibly American prices... :)

(I'm sorry for being ) http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/09/28/1221221&from=rss#

Re:Cheap.

[zaivala]

OK, the Eee PC 701 qualifies easily under this definition... and they've added quite a few things since then.

Re:Cheap.

[Linker3000]

Good call - I am posting this from my Aspire One (the Linux-based one, of course!) and it's a cracking piece of kit.

Hacking the default screen interface is simple and mine boasts icons for: Remote Desktop/VNC, MySQL Query Browser, Putty, FTP, Twinkle (VoIP phone) and Bluefish Editor.

I only wish Acer had included a Bluetooth interface as standard.

Re:Cheap.

[Linker3000]

The AA1 is £199 now - it's getting there

Re:Cheap.

[Threni]

There is no "the" AA1. There are several models, from half gig Linux with 8gig solid state drives to 1gig ram, 120gig hd windows/linux models.

Re:Cheap.

[Linker3000]

I an aware of that - I have an Aspire One; in fact, I am using it right now, having just installed Filezilla on it.

I was referring to the same spec mentioned by the previous poster - that's also the model I am using.

Re:Cheap.

[Threni]

I've got one, although since I made my post I've trashed the OS. That is, I installed Firefox 3, tried to follow the instructions "off the net" to install the libraries for Firefox 2 so that I can still use some of the apps supplied with the Acer (and also get Pidgin working again, since I believe it's the upgraded Firefox which broke it), and now can't launch any apps from the desktop. My recovery DVD doesn't boot on my main PC so I'm having to resort to 1) copying the dvd in case it's the media (many people have problems booting from it) and then 2) downloading a copy off the net and trying that. Next time I'll make a recovery USB key. I suggest you make one now (having said that, this my my first real experience of Linux so if you know what you're doing you probably won't have these problems).

Re:Cheap.

[Linker3000]

That's a bit of a bugger - yes - if you don't get FF3 just right and/or corrupt the desktop then things get bad. Best info on FF3 install is below - if you've not found it already. I'm on FF3 right now.

http://macles.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2008-07-31T01%3A15%3A00%2B02%3A00&max-results=12

Re:Cheap.

[Threni]

Sadly those instructions don't even hint at the problems you'll have with the supplied apps if you install FF3 on the Aspire, let alone suggest a solution. Next time round I'll stick with FF2, and use a completely separate distro to experiment with.

Good site, though - but the best site I've seen for info/advice is here:

http://www.aspireoneuser.com/forum/

Re:Cheap.

[PC and Sony Fanboy]

Hmm... cheap, $150-200 with decent processing power, decent screen, wifi and well built. Can I also get it to do the dishes, and clean up? If this is what you want, you'd better start hoping for a serious recession so your money will be worth more. 'Cuz that hardware isn't gonna be worth less for awhile yet.

Re:Cheap.

[Linker3000]

Interesting as I have been on FF3 for a couple of months with no probs at all - everything working OK including Chatzilla, forecastfox and adblock.

Yep good site - see my post there about getting bluetooth dongles working ;-)

Re:Cheap.

[hattig]

Just found it for £179 on Amazon!

(That's $279 ex tax for those on the wrong side of the pond)

Re:Cheap.

[Threni]

I'll look for your post!

FF3 is fine. It's just that the AA1 uses FF2 libraries apparently, so when you install FF3 it stops things working. You wouldn't notice unless you use the affected apps, which you probably don't as you are unlikely to use the aa1 mail facility or the rss reader. If you're bored you could check out Pidgin and see if that works - but then again I was fiddling so perhaps that broke for another reason.

Right now I'm writing this in a Live Ubuntu 4.8.1 session on my regular desktop PC while I create a bootable USB key to stick in my AA1 and install. Fingers crossed!

Re:Cheap.

[LWATCDR]

While I am a Linux user I have to say that there is another option.
How about OS/X?
Apple has shown that OS/X can run on some pretty low end hardware like the iPhone. Apple could come out with a Netbook to fill out their lineup.

Re:Cheap.

[heteromonomer]

Not necessarily.

No optical drive. 12.1". Under $700. Core2Duo P series. 2+GB RAM. SSD. Linux. SD card slot. PCI Express slot. USB and external VGA, modem and ethernet ports. Integrated webcam. Wireless BGN.

Would make me happy.

Re:Cheap.

[chriseyre2000]

eeePC is now 150GBP at UK airports.

Re:Cheap.

[Threni]

That's because they don't include our local tax (VAT), at 17.5%, if you're buying it to take to a non-EU country.

Re:Cheap.

[chriseyre2000]

They give you the discount even if you are going to an EU country!

Re:Cheap.

[lupis42]

Cheap & Portable or Cheap & Powerful should be available without too much trouble, assuming cheap = less than, say, 500 USD.
I quite the EEE 1000H, but a better CPU in the Mini-Note would have sold me as well. Ideally, Linux is the better OS option, but I all I really want is web browsing, with background music, meaning a light CPU, around 1G RAM, as many pixels as can be crammed into the frame, and plenty of headphone and USB ports.

Re:Cheap.

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you own a Vaio TX you must realise that the Vaio screens are excellent. I have a TR5 with the 10.6 inch screen and have no problems using it and the keyboard for extended times. It is tiny compared to my other machines (this is the 13.3 inch SZ) but very crisp and clear and eminently usable for a day at work.

Re:Cheap.

[Eil]

Crap, I just realized that I meant to say "pick two" instead of "pick one". Even used the preview button!

macbook nano

[eobanb]

A Macbook nano. $699, 10" screen, dual-core Atom, 2 GB of RAM, 64 GB flash drive, 6-cell removable battery, Airport/Bluetooth, Snow Leopard; no CD/DVD drive. Many manufacturers already have models similar to this; with subnotebook sales at an all-time high it's only a matter of time before Apple jumps onboard.

Re:macbook nano

[Zashi]

Well if you're going to call it a nano, you might as well use the nano processor.

Re:macbook nano

[blahbooboo]

A Macbook nano. $699, 10" screen, dual-core Atom, 2 GB of RAM, 64 GB flash drive, 6-cell removable battery, Airport/Bluetooth, Snow Leopard; no CD/DVD drive.

Many manufacturers already have models similar to this; with subnotebook sales at an all-time high it's only a matter of time before Apple jumps onboard.

You forgot the Apple Mac tax. Add ~$2-300 to the price and you will have a better estimate as to what Apple would charge :)

Re:macbook nano

[Anonymous Coward]

$699

Right. Put a 1 in front of the 6 maybe.

Re:macbook nano

[suricatta]

Get an MSI Wind and then go here: http://www.modaco.com/content/asus-eee-pc-http-www-eeeasy-com/270099/pauls-complete-guide-to-installing-osx-leopard-on-your-msi-wind-advent-4211/

You'll need to purchase a different Wi-Fi card for it, and you may need to purchase a 6-cell battery seperately, but the rest of the hardware pretty much works as it should. Only thing you're really losing are the headphone and microphone jacks.

I for one...

[SaidinUnleashed]

...welcome our new netbook overlords.

Re:I for one...

[Atti K.]

Imagine a Beowulf cluster of ultimate netbooks!

Re:I for one...

[thompson.ash]

Well I suppose someone had to say it eventually :D

Power Consumption / Battery Life

[lobiusmoop]

Why is it that the 'original' netbook - the XO1 - can get 9-10 hours of battery life, even with a basic NiMH (rather than Li-ion) battery, and yet all the followup netbooks seem stuck at 4 hours tops? Even with the new ultra-efficient Atom processor, most new netbooks seem to have a relatively heavy power draw. I wish somebody would sort that out.

Re:Power Consumption / Battery Life

[Anonymous Coward]

I have seen that 9-10 hours claim before, but my XO-1 only lasts the usual 3-4 hours.

Re:Power Consumption / Battery Life

[Anonymous Coward]

One important reason is because the XO-1 has a really, really weird, very low power-usage screen. That accounts for most of the difference, but it's also something that was designed for the XO-1's field and might not be immediately adaptable to more conventional uses.

Also, the Atom may be efficient, but the only Intel chipset you can get to connect to it (it's a closed platform) draws significantly more power than the Atom processor. The platform won't really take off until a much more efficient, lightweight chipset comes out for it, but that can't be a third-party chipset, the way Intel currently plan it.

Re:Power Consumption / Battery Life

[wisty]

Have a look at the history of the PDA. Apple came in with the Newton (in 1994), which failed to capture a sustainable market. Lots of competitors also dived in, but it wasn't until the technologically inferior Palm Pilot came along (in 1997) that the market took off. Palm Pilot made the four main use cases (address book, memo, date, and todo) easy to use. No more, and no less. It used inferior technology, but superior design.
The X01 is good enough, hardware wise, but it is an educational tool, not a netbook. We haven't seen a netbook yet, but an iPhone style browser, google maps, an office system that is usable on a small machine, and a communications system (texts, rss, email, etc) with appropriate hardware support (possibly specialized controls, though apples trackpad is pretty cool) would establish the new design of what netbooks are meant to be. Sorry, was I rambling?

Re:Power Consumption / Battery Life

[ThinkingInBinary]

The XO gets its 9-10 hours of battery life when reading ebooks by turning off everything but the LCD and DCON (display controller). The system goes into suspend-to-RAM but leaves the screen on so you can read it. If you use this with the screen in reflective mode (no backlight) it can last a hell of a long time. Doing anything else, though, it gets a normal 2-4 hours of battery.

Re:Power Consumption / Battery Life

[ThinkingInBinary]

The X01 is good enough, hardware wise, but it is an educational tool, not a netbook.

Thank you for pointing this out! I have an XO, and the first thing most people do when they see it is compare it to the EeePC. There are some compromises, like the rubber keyboard, that were made differently on the XO then on the EeePC due to the target market, and people need to realize the target markets aren't the same!

Re:Power Consumption / Battery Life

[hyperz69]

The Intel 945 Chipset does NOT help! The atom platform thats coming out should GREATLY improve battery life and heat issues.

Re:Power Consumption / Battery Life

[inhuman_4]

Thats a really interesting point. The iPhone has most of the features that people want in a netbook: Wifi, 3G, long battery life, lots of different apps, some simple games, etc.

I think it would be interesting to see the iPhone made into a netbook. Get some USB connectivity so you can have: A real keyboard, a hard drive, a mouse, and what ever else the user wants. Give the user access to the file system, and an office suit. The iPhone already supports video out, so hookup a small screen instead of a TV. Then use the extra space for a huge battery. Package it all into something the size of the EEE pc. I know its not as easy as this but you get the idea.

Re:Power Consumption / Battery Life

[YetAnotherBob]

Screen.

That's the biggest power draw. Processor is also an issue, but the power for the screen dominates.

Re:Power Consumption / Battery Life

[sznupi]

Intel actually has a low power chipset for Atom (called Poulsbo), but it's apparently allowed to be used only in "MIDs", not in netbooks (and from the specs it would be perfectly suffiecient...)

Re:Power Consumption / Battery Life

[Anonymous Coward]

Re your sig: Only logged in users can see your honeypot link, which defeats the point.

Re:Power Consumption / Battery Life

[Jorophose]

Forget the iPhone. Think nVidia Tegra. That looks like one badass smartphone platform, especially if you can bring it to DS-size.

Asus N10 works for me

[Ritz_Just_Ritz]

The new Asus N10 seems to hit the mark pretty well for me.

http://www.mobilecomputermag.co.uk/20080926939/hands-on-with-the-asus-n10-gaming-netbook.html

The only thing I would add to it would be a firewire port.

Cheers,

Re:Asus N10 works for me

[Anonymous Coward]

i think N10 is great! and the guy on the article is kinda moron.

so, he wants HDMI, but he doesn't want a video chipset able to do it!

someone, just tell the damn guy to get lost, we all know atom deserves a better chipset, more efficient and with better graphic quality!

I want one that *I* can build.

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to be able to walk into Microcenter or whoever, pick my board, pick a case, pick a screen, pick the drive, etc... and then build it. And that way, when something goes wrong, I can go and get the frick'in part(s) a fix it - without having to send it away for $50+.

And WTF is it with Apple of to have to wait 3 or more days to get a hard drive - at their stores?!?

Re:I want one that *I* can build.

[UnknowingFool]

The problem is that there is no standard design for laptop motherboards so cases and motherboards have to match. Until manufacturers agree on a standard, you won't be able to do that. Desktops have the ATX standard.

Re:I want one that *I* can build.

[couchslug]

Manufacturers have every incentive to avoid standard form-factors (except within their lineup, witness the various IBM accessory bays) because it is better for sales if users shitcan broken machines instead of fixing them.

I'd love modularity myself, especially the ability to easily pop out the SSD and carry that with me.

A "double-ended" SSD mount sleeve with a SATA connector on one end and a USB connector on the other would be even better.

captain obvious?

[vajorie]

it would include a price tag of below $300... And linux please.

Re:captain obvious?

[blind biker]

it would include a price tag of below $300.

Exactly. Before, when the sub-notebooks were selling for US$1200+ (many models being US$2000-3000), there wasn't a thriving netbook category. Asus, whether you like their first models or not, broke the ice, bigtime, thanks to the low price of the Eee PC.

What worked then, will work now: keep the prices low. Most people don't give a shit about high-end graphics and fingerprint readers, in a netbook. They want it small and cheap. And that's pretty much it!

Re:captain obvious?

[Glonoinha]

This.

Netbook = Internet capable mini notebook.

Internet capable means
- wifi
- a screen big enough to view most web pages
- a keyboard good enough to type this post on or do email (not type a doctoral thesis)
- a lightweight'ish operating system that runs Firefox and maybe Adobe Reader and plays flash for YouTube. And if we're feeling generous, a VPN client with a TermServer client.

Basically a device I can bring with me to let me jack into the 'net from wherever I happen to be (catch a wifi signal pretty much anywhere) to bridge the gap from meatspace to cyberspace.

$300 on the high end.
'Disposable income' level on the low end.

Re:captain obvious?

[blind biker]

Yep. That's the "secret" formula. I got myself the Eee PC 701, and while the KB and screen are barely enough, they _are_ enough for reading my e-mails and do short edits to papers or presentations.

What's your poison?

Re:captain obvious?

[Glonoinha]

I was seriously considering one of the new 1.6GHz Atom based Netbooks. The one with 1G of memory and either the 16G flash drive or the 120G IDE would run me $400~$450 new (including a legit license of XP, so I could reinstall that after playing with Linux on it to see which I liked better.)

Ended up finding a used Dell Precision M90 on Craigslist for $350 - machine was owned by an engineer that took very good care of his hardware, so this 1 year old machine ($2,600 new - dual core CPU, 2G RAM, 7200rpm hard drive, GigE NIC, Quatro FX 1500 video card, wifi, 17" LCD on a magnesium alloy frame, license for XP Pro) looks brand new. Battery holds a charge for an easy 2 hours. For $100 less than the cost of a new 9" Netbook.

Not exactly something I can carry in a small bag, but if the notion strikes me I can design a new Space Shuttle on it using SolidWorks or AutoCAD Inventor. Not bad for roughly the same money, maybe a little less than the Eee was only six months ago.

Re:captain obvious?

[Gunstick]

same to me.
Max $300 is the most important one. So mostly all "netbooks" coming after the eeePC got it all wrong. The eee had success because of the price.

I used mine to backup my camera pictures to an external drive (do that with an iPhone, or any other phone, pda, psion...).
I also resized pictures and posted them to forums easily.

And do the usual stuff, reading webmail, slashdot, watching youtube. I did not need G3, free wirless is available a lot (at least on my USA vacation).
The small screen only got in the way on google maps, but thanks to alt+mouse I could size and move the window as I liked.

Re:captain obvious?

[LordVader717]

Not exactly something I can carry in a small bag, but if the notion strikes me I can design a new Space Shuttle on it using SolidWorks or AutoCAD Inventor.

Pretty sure the eeepc could do that too.

The ultimate netbook should have:

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Gentoo 2) A quantum processor

Re:The ultimate netbook should have:

[Hal_Porter]

--no-decoherence --many-worlds --fuck-upstream --unsafe-math --unsafe-compiler

Re:The ultimate netbook should have:

[igny]

1) Gentoo 2) A quantum processor

Doesn't one of these require the other?

Mine would have...

[Darundal]

...An e-ink display (several generations ahead of what we have now, grayscale or color doesn't matter, just needs a decent refresh rate) plus integrated light (something along the lines of the thinkpad thinklight, but for the screen), wi-fi/bluetooth, a trackpoint (screw touchpads), be small (maybe along the lines of an eee701, just wider to accomodate a full-size keyboard), have a 5+ hour battery life, run a very light OS that is easy to customize (and preferably open source), enough storage for basic documents/a few additional programs (I am not seeing more than 20 GB here), be very durable (able to survive a spill or a drop from a high place), and probably within the $100-$300 range.

Also, it would be real nice if it had an integrated ATM that gave access to Bill Gates' bank account ;-)

Re:Mine would have...

[goose-incarnated]

Would you like a pony with that?

Why just one?

[dj245]

Everyone has different needs and tastes. Some want a smaller package at the cost of features and screen size. Some of us want a little more hardware available and can't see a 7" screen anyhow. Many Japanese would be happy with a 4" netbook even if it had a 200Mhz arm processor. Most Americans would complain. This is why Asus etc have so many models and sizes. Trying to jam everyone into one model is like Henry Ford with the model T. He lost market share because he thought one car would be enough choice for everyone.

grrr

[bigdavex]

[Buy a laptop!]

I think that . . .

>

Re:grrr

[bigdavex]

[Buy a Toshiba TV]

this article . . .

<< 1 2 3 4 5 6 >>

Re:grrr

[bigdavex]

[Buy more Ovaltine]

has too many ads.

<< 1 2 3 4 5 6 >>

If cost is no object...

[slk]

I'd say the ultimate netbook would be a slightly ruggedized version of the Lenovo X61s I already own, plus the built-in 3G that I wish I had ordered. (not that 3G via a USB 'modem' is bad)

For that matter, how about an X200s? Starting weight of 2.5 pounds, but a 'real' computer. The only disadvantage here is that they are expensive, but the article said 'ultimate', not 'ultimate when compromised to make it cheap'.

Re:If cost is no object...

[fostware]

As an X31 owner, my three year old mini laptop runs rings around the current netbooks. The addition of a newer (read cooler and less power hungry) CPU and SSD tech would make it ideal.

Re:If cost is no object...

[jabuzz]

Why would anyone want a built in 3G modem? That means two SIM cards and two mobile phone plans or constant swapping between the two.

All you need is a bluetooth connection to your perfectly good 3G handset that in difficult conditions can be placed in a good signal area away from the netbook.

Or is this a USA thing, where due to brain dead mobile carriers you don't get data on your mobile plan along with Bluetooth tethering?

Re:If cost is no object...

[kriebz]

US carriers are braindead. Tethering costs extra, but there are hacks to get around this for some phones. Also, if your phone rings, you get kicked off. I don't know they are built to work this way, but I think it's true of any current (deployed) tech.

It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[MythMoth]

The Psion clamshells seemed pretty popular in their day. I don't understand why that form factor went away and didn't come back! One of these with a color screen, a modern processor, WiFi and running Linux would definitely appeal to me.

Netbooks at the moment seem like the worst of both worlds - too large to be conveniently portable, too underpowered to do serious work, too small to be productive for heavily keyboard oriented stuff. They're light at least - but I don't really follow why that's a big deal. Obviously I'm wrong because Netbooks are popular. I just don't quite understand it.

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[teh kurisu]

If I worked in marketing and was given a netbook to sell, I'd probably target non-laptop users - people who don't own a computer at all right up to those who have a modern desktop at home, but no mobile solution for casual web browsing and email. People who don't have a real need (or the budget) for a smartphone, but would quite like something that they could carry around the house with them rather than being tied to a desk.

I think trying to market it as an out-and-about internet and email solution is a non-starter. You'd be better off with an iPod Touch.

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[Tubal-Cain]

I agree. Right now, I am using a laptop as a desktop replacement. It's not working out for me with the non-standard keyboard, hitting the touch-pad when I type, etc. It just isn't that easy to use for real work. So my next machine will be a real desktop, and I will get a netbook for mobile connectivity.

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[MythMoth]

I am using a laptop as a desktop replacement. It's not working out for me with the non-standard keyboard, hitting the touch-pad when I type, etc.

Thinkpad! Gorgeous keyboards, sanely laid out. The trackpoint is a winner. You can disable the touchpad in BIOS if you're unlucky enough to have one. I actively prefer my Thinkpads to desktop machines and use them as such. Sadly they don't do a jacket pocket sized one (though I believe they did once upon a time).

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[owlstead]

They are compatible with the mayor operating systems, and have a screen large enough to run normal applications on (that people *know*). They have a keyboard that, with a bit of trouble, you can actually type on. People like mice, and you can connect them. They all have at least wifi, and with a bit of luck, bluetooth as well. They are affordable and have adamant running time and they are rather quiet. You can do presentations with them.

The only real trouble with them is that they don't fit into your breast pocket of your suit.

Otherwise: what's not to like?

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[Anonymous Coward]

The only current product with a similar form factor I know of is the Nokia E90. Unfortunately it doesn't run Linux, but due to the long heritage of the Communicator series there is a healthy selection of third-party software available. It also functions as a mobile phone, a camera and a GPS navigator.

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[MythMoth]

Well nothing, but which of these features is missing from a cheap laptop? I just don't get why that particular size is such a big deal. If it's the price I sort of get it, but I'm still a bit skeptical given that the range of netbook prices substantially overlaps the bottom end of laptops.

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[jamesshuang]

Ever hear of the Nokia N810? Same form factor, 200mhz ARM proc, microsd slot for expansion, wifi and linux. If you want *cheap*, look for N800's. Same processor minus the keyboard, but two SD slots for 32 gb of memory (or more!), and sells for around $200 now.

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[MythMoth]

Well yes, but "minus the keyboard" is quite a big difference.

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[timotten]

They're light at least - but I don't really follow why that's a big deal. Obviously I'm wrong because Netbooks are popular. I just don't quite understand it.

The benefits of a netbook are basically the same as any laptop -- you want a functional computer for use at meetings, cafes, conferences, airports, etc. I think the differentiating issue is how you commute.

If you typically commute among home, office, clients, cafes, grocery store, etc. by car, then you need a portable computer that you can carry to the car. Once it's in the car, the size and weight don't matter. Any laptop will fit the bill.

If you commute by bike, metro-train, metro-bus, or foot, then you need a portable computer that fits in your bag (backpack, briefcase, messenger bag, purse). Your bag is critical because it goes almost everywhere that you go. A conventional laptop monopolizes your bag, slows you down, and requires careful handling. A netbook shares space with your other stuff.

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[glenstar]

I loved the Workpad z50. One of the coolest little machines I ever owned, even if it did run WinCE. I ended up shipping it down to my mother and she used it for email and web browsing for 2 or 3 years.

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[MythMoth]

Yep, that's probably the closest thing to what I'm looking for that's currently available, but is just "not quite" in various ways: mediocre keyboard, symbian OS. limited memory, under-powered, and so on. Give it a better keyboard and a bit more memory and I'd probably bite though.

A pal of mine had the Nokia 9000 brick and swore by (and occasionally at) it so I'm keeping an eye out for successors in that lineage.

In fact I think that's the "real" answer to my question - capable mobiles killed the pocket organiser and so that's currently seen as a no-go area for new products. Personally I hope they come back; or that someone puts out a clamshell qwerty phone with a mainstream OS.

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously I'm wrong because Netbooks are popular. I just don't quite understand it.

I got mine, an eee PC, because it is an inexpensive device that I can take with me on trips (acros country or just to the local coffe shop) without having to worry too much about it.

My other computer is a Thinkpad that cost over $3,000.00 that I would be very wary to bring with me wherever I go.

To be honest, the battery life in my eee is so bad that if I could do it over again, I would have spent the money on a cheap used 13" laptop with longer battery life as opposed to the eee that I currently have. Plus the eee keyboard is the worst ever.

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[owlstead]

Advantages over cheap laptops:

Weight
Size
Battery life
Bluetooth (or mobile connectivity such as GPRS/UMTS)
Sound
Ruggedness

True, some netbooks don't include battery life enhancements or mobile connectivity. Those are not true netbooks in my opinion and are much more useless than the counterparts that do include it.

Yes, there is overlap, especially on cost, but there are still some differences to make the distinction. And of course I've only listed the advantages of netbooks here.

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[owlstead]

With sound I meant noise of course. I'm rather spent after spending two days with my nephews (3 & 6 years of age).

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[rantingkitten]

I'm right there with you; I don't understand what the big deal is. I've never, ever been in a situation where I thought "Gee, if only I had a really small computer I could get something done!" I have an HP nx7400, which I believe is something like 15.4" across. It works fine on airplanes, even in coach. I've used it without problem in the back of taxis, in the passenger seat of cars, at the pub, at the coffee shop, or waiting in an airport. I generally do not take the train or bus, but I can't see it really being a problem if I did -- and frankly, I can go for a forty minute ride without using a computer. It's not that hard.

Even the "portability" argument doesn't make much sense to me. I walk around with this thing nearly everywhere, and it's fine. If I use a slightly larger bag than the one it came with, I can stuff all kinds of extra crap in there without hassle. It's not that heavy, and if you can't carry twelve pounds of gear with you for twenty blocks, maybe you should worry more about getting in shape than the size of your computer.

Like you, I am clearly wrong, since the silly things sell, but I can't shake the feeling that most people buy them as novelties or toys, since the people I know who have them already have a desktop and a laptop (or two, or three) before they get one of these things. I've yet to hear a decent reason for a netbook (or subnotebook, or ultraportable, or whatever the buzzword is this week), other than "it's small and light", which makes zero sense to me whatsoever.

The only thing I could maybe see is battery life, but that can be handled by higher-capacity batteries, or cranking down the brightness of the screen, etc. Even without such measures I get a good 1.5 hours or so from my laptop, and I can't think of many real-life situations where I'd be away from an outlet that long and "need" to use a computer.

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[jamesshuang]

Really depends on how you use it. My 32gb is filled with music, and it acts as my primary music player/portal (since it can stream from the network). Also, the screen keyboard is surprisingly fast and accurate, so there really is no point for a dedicated keyboard. Running linux is such a huge advantage, because I can ssh or vnc into it to manipulate, and it's very very easy to use with typical linux tools.

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[Just Some Guy]

I've yet to hear a decent reason for a netbook (or subnotebook, or ultraportable, or whatever the buzzword is this week), other than "it's small and light", which makes zero sense to me whatsoever.

I can only speak for myself, but I've come to love my Eee. The size doesn't seem that impressive until you actually use one for a while and realize that it's roughly as portable as a paperback book. It's not that you can take it somewhere you couldn't take a laptop, but that you can take it anywhere without thinking - just throw it in a bag and go.

I'm perfectly capable of toting a fullsize laptop around, but I'm less likely to bring it than I am the Eee.

Re:It would fit in a jacket pocket...

[MythMoth]

I apologise; I skimmed through this and then dismissed it with the "minus the keyboard2 jibe earlier. I didn't grok that you were saying that the N810 has a keyboard and that the N800 is the keyboardless and thus cheaper alternative.

Yes, this looks exactly what I'm after - I knew about the N800 and assumed that the N810 was just an upgrade upon that, but for me the minor addition of a keyboard makes it exactly what I'm after. I'll certainly get one. It's a shame it's not a clamshell, but bloody hell, it ticks everything else on my wishlist so I'm not going to complain too loudly about that.

Thanks!

Please tag "andapony"

[moshez]

I suggest the "andapony" tag to apply to this, and similar, fluff pieces.

Easy

[TheRaven64]

CPU would be a TI OMAP 3530, and at least 256MB of RAM. It would have a smallish 200dpi screen and both composite video and HDMI out (with a small HDMI to DVI-D adaptor provided) for driving an external screen and a secondary eInk display. Apart from this, all of the standard things (802.11n, Bluetooth, USB and ideally a FireWire 800 port). Battery life would be at least 8 hours with WiFi running and the screen at a sensible level of brightness. No hard disk, but at least 20GB of flash. Oh, and it would run OpenBSD.

yeesh

[kisrael]

I like how the spin in the article description makes it feel like it's doing the industry a service when really it's just some guy politely ranting and daydreaming.

Re:yeesh

[pomegranatesix]

Yeah, pretty much. I just bought a netbook for school, and there's really not a whole lot I could or would improve on. The article has some interesting ideas, but nothing groundbreaking. Yes, I too would like my car to come with a 3.5L, 300 horsepower engine with a turbocharger and get 40 miles to the gallon! But you know what? I drive a Honda. I have a 2.0L naturally aspirated engine with 210 horsepower, and I get 27mpg local/36 highway. That's frikkin' good enough. Yes, I know the technology is out there to get all those extra fancy doodads, but what I have now satifies everything that I really need in a car. Much like my Acer Aspire One.

The only thing that I've changed on my Aspire One is operating system. I switched from Windows XP to Ubuntu, and that was a fairly straightforward install for even a computer noob like me. I'm even happy about the price - I paid $350 for my Acer Aspire One with the 120GB harddrive and 1gb RAM. I haven't quite jumped on the SSD bandwagon yet - my brother works for a company who manfucturers SSDs, and in his opinion, the technology isn't sufficiently mature yet.

The build quality of this is great - I throw it in my backpack, and have been lugging back and forth from school almost every day. The hinges are stiff enough to feel sturdy, and there's no wobble, unlike my $1600 Fujitsu S-series laptop that I bought 4 years ago. I daresay that this is a much better purchase, and the specs aren't too different either. Granted, there Fujitsu is 4 years old, but this laptop is literally a quarter of the price, and yet the harddrive is 3x bigger! If we continue to compare my Aspire One to my old Fujitsu, it seems that even the keyboard on the Aspire One has a better tactile feel. Nothing I would change there.

People stop me to tell me "... that is the TINIEST laptop I've ever seen!" and girls squeal about how cute it is.

So based on the suggestions from the article, would a trackpoint mouse be all that much more awesomer? Not really. (It's a take it or leave it kinda thing.) 1280 x 800 resolution? Again, meh. Everything on my screen is already tiny enough with 1024 x 600. 1GB RAM, Atom processor, wifi, ethernet, usb ports, blah blah blah? Got that already, minus Bluetooth connectivity. Those are like "standard features" on a car. 6-cell battery? Already an option, and one I don't really find that I need. Last but not least, HSPDA? Dude, I don't even know what that IS, and I don't think I really even need it anyway. And the price of course - we would all like to buy a new Subaru STi for the price of Honda Civic - but dude... you know it just ain't happening.

Oh, and I LOL'd at the "Apple iPhone of netbooks" analogy. The Apple iPhone didn't blow anything out of the water. It just had a better marketing campaign. Considering most people at my school have never seen a net top before (they gawk at mine, and their eyes bug out when I tell them it was only $350), I suspect that the first company to really aggressively market the low-price net top will be hailed as the "the iPhone of net tops."

Re:yeesh

[Anonymous Coward]

People stop me to tell me "... that is the TINIEST ****** I've ever seen!" and girls squeal about how cute it is.

Let's guess what goes in the asterisks.

Re:yeesh

[kisrael]

Ugh, I gotta get my notification of replies going.

I agree with almost everything you said. It's so easy to "design" without the constraints of the real world.

Interested to hear about the Fujuitsu. I have a tablet PC Lifebook from them, about the size of an EEEPC 901... I've been impressed w/ its durability over the last few years.

Also, I'd disagree that the iPhone success is even primarily marketing-driven. I'm an old Palm fan who had a Windows PocketPC smartphone and played with a few others, and while clones might start to go the same direction, NO device had the resolution, design and UI slickness, form factor, etc that the iPhone came out with -- and the app store even further upped the ante.

Depends on the needs. For me:

[Enleth]

Lightweight (under 1.5kg including the power supply), 12h+ REAL battery life, built-in 3G modem, trackpoint or a *properly* calibrated touchpad, a sturdy case - steel hinges (but NOT steel fastened with screws to a plastic frame), titanium alloy or carbon fiber underside and cover - and proper space utilization (if there's space for a full-sized keyboard because the notebook is widescreen, then put this goddamned full-sized keyboard there, not a "normal" laptop keyboard and 10cm of padding on each side). Oh, and a matte screen. Glossy is OK for desktop monitors in a controller environment, laptops are being used where it's often impossible to eliminate direct, bright sources of light that make using a glossy screen almost impossible.

Actually, I think I've just described something similar to my X60, which is a very good design as far as mobility is concerned, but could be improved anyway. Sadly, I couldn't find anything better yet - Eee is nice but underpowered for my needs (no, not gaming) and too small (12.1" is optimal for me), Vaio feels too delicate and too easy to break, while HP subnotebooks are fine at first, but there's something about them that puts me off.

Disclaimer: this has nothing to do with the "desktop replacement" kind of notebook, which definitely has its place (small apartments, dorm rooms etc.), but is, in my opinion, out of scope of this discussion.

Re:Depends on the needs. For me:

[mypalmike]

> Lightweight (under 1.5kg including the power supply), 12h+ REAL battery life, built-in 3G modem

Your first 3 criteria are at odds with each other. Weight is largely a function of battery size, and you can't do 12+ hours of 3G without a good chunk of battery.

Re:Depends on the needs. For me:

[Enleth]

Not really, X60 is almost there for me - 10-14h of work time with 3G connectivity in under 1.8kg, with two 8-cell batteries. I just had to make a battery-powered (but very small and light) contraption that plugs into the charging port and keeps the notebook up for a few seconds while I switch the main battery for a fresh one. And that's the normal X60, not X60s with a low-voltage processor.

So I'd say the technology for a light 12h+ laptop on a single battery will be there soon if it's not already.

Re:Depends on the needs. For me:

[mypalmike]

Uhhh, yeah, that's two batteries.

Re:Depends on the needs. For me:

[Enleth]

Sure, that's some hassle, but it's only about 300g more than I'd be completely comfortable with, much lighter than a normal (around 15") notebook with a single 6-cell battery capable of no more than 4-5h.

I'm much more concerned with the fact that the audio out port is already showing signs of broken solder - they could have mounted it using some kind of a flexible connector instead of a rigid PCB. Still much better, however, than my previous laptop (some Gericom-branded OEM model) that just fell apart after two years.

Re:Depends on the needs. For me:

[Blakey Rat]

Lightweight (under 1.5kg including the power supply), 12h+ REAL battery life, built-in 3G modem

That's unpossible.

It's a challenge to get 12 hours of battery life from even a minscule 3G cellphone display/system while keeping it lightweight, it would be impossible for something with a 9-12" screen. The sad fact is that 3G pulls a lot of power, and even netbooks without 3G can't pull-off 12 hours now. (You're lucky to get a third of that.) Basically, you want a fantasy fairy-dust powered computer.

On the other hand, what do you need 12 hours of battery life for? Do you never sleep? And do all your work in no-outlets-ville?

Re:Depends on the needs. For me:

[Enleth]

Read my other posts - I *do* get 12h with 3G, just using two batteries. So that's 6h with a single battery (8 normal Li-ion cells, and there already are cells with a better energy density). The trick is probably that the modem I'm using (PCMCIA GlobeTrotter with Option chipset) is switching between link modes when appropriate - it's on GPRS most of the time, but switches to UMTS as soon as more bandwidth is needed (there is a delay of a few seconds, but it's otherwise completely transparent).

Sometimes I'm working while on a train or waiting for one, sometimes I actually do work in remote locations, usually just because I can and like to (coding while in the middle of a forest, or even just a city park, is a pretty good compromise between needing to finish something and getting out of the basement, really), and I like to have some spare battery time after that, just in case. Maybe I don't actually need it often, more like once every few weeks, or even months, when something like a long power outage or a longer-than-expected trip happens, but it's just the way I prefer it to be.

By the way, what about the fuel cells? Maybe those will be able to provide 12 hours worth of power on a single charge, while keeping the weight reasonable. They're pretty heavy now, but nowhere near the efficiency limit, so there's probably a lot of room for improvement.

Re:Depends on the needs. For me:

[Nicolay77]

Can you tell me what's a non-calibrated touchpad?

I don't think I have ever used one.

Re:Depends on the needs. For me:

[Enleth]

Sure, that's a touchpad with incorrect scale, maximum speed and acceleration presets for the particular screen size and touchpad area combination. Out of many laptops I've tried in the stores, only a few had those settings adjusted properly. Most are too damn slow, requiring constant "rubbing" just to move the cursor across the screen. This is even worse with widescreen laptops and horizontal movements.

A properly configured touchpad maps to at least 2/3 of the screen area (I'd say more than 3/4 is actually good), allowing to move the cursor from the top to the bottom of the screen with a single swipe of the finger and from one side to the other with less than two swipes, yet still has enough precision to point at the smallest typical UI elements (I'd say 10x10px is a good measure) without too much effort.

All Synaptics and Alps touchpads are perfectly capable of that if configured properly, but the laptop makers just install the same touchpad in all the laptops in a single series, big or small screen, and don't bother with changing the factory (that is, the touchpad's) defaults, which are badly inappropriate most of the time.

Simple. Sub $300

[Anonymous Coward]

and no, I don't mean $299. i would get an eee pc right now if I could get it for $150. since I can't, I'm just going to wait.

Rather Lenovo

[aliquis]

If it was all about the brand.

Personally I don't really see the problem with the 10" Intel Atom ones? Decent CPU, almost ok resolution, and so on.

I don't like the "oh let's make it like the Macbook Air except in plastic"-designs though. I'd rather take something sharp and boxy in metal over that.

Anyway, no, I don't have any good ideas. Aslong as it's Atom I'm happy.

Re:Cheap. What's the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

A "low to medium-end CPU" and a "decent video card"? What's the point? If all you've got is a low end CPU you aren't going to be doing any serious graphics anyway.

What if it has a bug ...

[PolygamousRanchKid]

... and transforms into a Hooker while you are giving a presentation?

Re:What if it has a bug ...

[orasio]

Just tune it up with a delay, so it does that 50 minutes later, when you are celebrating the deal with your new client.

I actually RTFA...

[neokushan]

I read the article. I got about 2 paragraphs in and read this little gem:

we're still waiting for the Apple iPhone of netbooks - the example that blows all out of the water and sets a new benchmark for all to follow.

Since when the hell was the iPhone the definitive Phone? I'm honestly not trying to troll here, but it's widely documented that although it's great for web browsing and such, the actual phone aspect of it fails on nearly all points. It doesn't do MMS, it doesn't have bluetooth for anything other than headsets - hell, the shitty Windows Smartphone I had 4 years ago did everything the iPhone does today (and more), with the only exceptions of a multi-touch screen and 3G (Because it wasn't widespread back then). Honestly, what am I missing here?

Re:I actually RTFA...

[Jeppe Salvesen]

Honestly, what am I missing here?

What specheads usually miss: The secret sauce is usability not specs. Other smartphones can do the same things - on paper. Many people don't buy non-iPhone smartphones because they think those phones are too complicated to use.

The same might go for the netbook marked - people are talking about RAM amount, price range, 3G etc. Maybe a better user experience would be a good idea? How about a piece of easy-to-use software on a USB thumdrive that allows you to set up a home network complete with sharing? A _lot_ of people with netbooks also have a desktop. If they could access photos, movies, documents on their desktop then that might be a good idea. Or maybe even sync between those computers?

Re:I actually RTFA...

[neokushan]

Except nearly every netbook on the market currently comes in WindowsXP form, so what's so different about the Usability of a netbook and a laptop/desktop (for the average joe, that is)?
Why is it suddenly an issue? What were people doing before? Don't tell me people are only just migrating from desktops to portables, this isn't a new fad, the only difference is that Netbooks are a bit more feature-packed than other ultra-portable devices (like Smartphones or even laptops).
By your logic, a more usable machine beats a better machine because it's easier to use. If that was true, why did we ever bother complicating our phones at all? Why not stick to the simplest of designs because they're easier to use? The iPhone looks pretty, but the only reason it's "easier to use" is because there's a lot less of it TO use. Aside from the web browsing, you're not exactly getting a great device.

Re:I actually RTFA...

[jabithew]

nearly every netbook on the market currently comes in WindowsXP form

Considering that the Linux version is usually a series of large buttons saying exactly what they do I'm not convinced that the Linux version isn't easier to use. [devil's advocate]It's also more similar to the iPhone UI[/devil's advocate]

Re:I actually RTFA...

[neokushan]

I never once said the Linux version wasn't easy to use, my point was that since most "n00bs" use windows and, more specifically, Windows XP, then these notebooks shouldn't prove any more difficult to use than any other computer they've been using for the last 7 years.

Re:I actually RTFA...

[hattig]

I think you meant to write "...with the only exceptions of being usable, losing your data if your battery ran out, being ugly, clunky, slow, all the worst aspects of Windows but in your pocket, etc".

The iPhone's software did blow all the competition out of the water. The smooth animations, the clean looks, the ease of control, and so on.

The point is that there is no netbook out there that gets the right balance. This is possibly because the manufacturers are having to compromise in order to make Windows XP versions.

Re:I actually RTFA...

[Anonymous Coward]

thats great and all, but "the actual phone aspect of it" you know, the part people talk on? remember that? works fantastically.

Re:I actually RTFA...

[neokushan]

GREAT windows hate speech there!
Shame it's got little to nothing to do with the topic at hand. If the argument was that Netbooks could be better because they Currently run windows, then you could say the same about 99% of desktops and laptops sold today.

Windows isn't the issue here, just because Microsoft is a big, evil Monopoly doesn't mean that XP isn't a decent Operating System.
How is it not "usable", exactly? Many people would argue that having to constantly drop into the terminal to do anything important in Linux makes it "unusable", or that the lack of Software support for MacOS (compared to Windows) makes it "unusable" but for some reason, nobody ever makes that claim. You know why? Because Linux, MacOSX and even Windows are ALL usable operating systems, each with their own advantages and disadvantages.
And loosing data because the battery ran out? XP uses NTFS, which may be the bane of many a Linux user, but it doesn't magically "lose" data just because of an unexpected power cut, it retains filesystem integrity. The only thing you could lose is UNSAVED data, which you're not going to be protected from on any operating system, unless the software you're using has built-in file recovery (I believe Office 2003 onwards has this).
I also particularly liked your trailing comment about manufacturers having to Compromise because of Windows. Compromise how, exactly? Taking the Eee as a fine example, the Linux versions tend to have identical hardware, with the only exceptions being smaller hard drives in the Linux variant. So go on, don't just leave it there, indulge me, explain how they're compromising hardware because of Windows? I'd imagine that, because of Windows' massive marketshare and almost implied support from most manufacturers (in terms of drivers), that'd it'd be the other way around, that the Linux variants would be the ones compromising due to flaky driver support for certain hardware.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Microsoft or Windows here or all of it's well-known flaws, I'm calling you out because your rant against it has no place here, plus your arguments would have been valid maybe 10 years ago when those issues plagued the 9x series, but 7 years ago Microsoft fixed most of them and you apparently didn't get the memo.

Re:I actually RTFA...

[jvin248]

I find it funny that the iPhone had trouble in the Japanese market because it was so far behind their technology and didn't offer enough features.

Re:I actually RTFA...

[hattig]

Windows Mobile 2003 and before would lose all user data when the battery ran out. You did realise I was talking about Windows Mobile, yes? Where I was replying to a post that said "...the shitty Windows Smartphone I had 4 years ago did everything the iPhone does today (and more), with the only exceptions..."

I know this from a previous job where we had software that was deployed to these devices. The user interface was primitive, and the devices were a PITA to deal with, and the people that had to use them had loads of problems using them. That's why all modern phones that run on Windows Mobile have their own custom interfaces these days.

And Windows XP doesn't run on ARM architectures, of which there are several SoCs available that are pretty powerful, such as NVIDIA's Tegra 650. These would be ideal for a netbook, far lower power than Atom+945, great for Linux.

Re:I actually RTFA...

[MahJongKong]

THe only phone that made headlines in the last decade was the iPhone. You could argue that it was all a PR stunt but the point is that just made the frontpages. (note: I don't own one, I've never used a Mac and i don't care about Apple)

Re:I actually RTFA...

[plumby]

It's PR combined with a mainstream media that hasn't the first clue about technology and is easily wowed by a phone that looks all shiny, ignoring all the problems like the fact that it's locked down, lacking MMS or video, almost impossible to type on without looking at it, lacking 3G (in its first incarnation that still got just about every news reporter in the UK drooling over it) etc etc.

Don't get me wrong - there IS a niche for the iPhone, and for that niche it's a lovely piece of kit, but it hardly blew the smartphone the Smartphone market apart, certainly in the UK, and certainly not in the way that the N95 seems to have done despite little mainstream media coverage (I would guess that around 75% of the people I know with a personal smartphone own an N95, with the rest split between Windows phones and the occasional iPhone or Blackberry).

Re:I actually RTFA...

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly, what am I missing here?

What specheads usually miss: The secret sauce is usability not specs.

+1

I've had two generations of Treos (600 & 650) and on my second generation of iPhone.

Sure it has some less-than-ideal issues: no all-encompassing bluetooth and cut-and-paste, but given I've never sent an MMS in my life I certainly don't miss that. I can always send a photo via email or upload to flickr direct from the phone.

What's different is that is has functions that every other phone has that I can actually *use*.

With the iPhone it's easy to do 3-way calling, etc. as the interface to do is obvious, and not buried behind layers of menus and finger gymnastics.

To really appreciate what Apple have done with the phone you have to sit down and *use* it, not look at it's spec's bullet points.

Everyone I've shown it to by letting them play with it for five minutes has resolved to get one once (a) their contract runs out and/or (b) it becomes available on their network.

It's all about the control Apple has with regards for the phone's usability, and not a list of tick-boxes on a spec. sheet.

My take

[subreality]

The categories are fuzzy, of course, but I see two main ones:

1) What I call a netbook, which is a reduced-functionality, super tiny notebook, with emphasis on wireless connectivity, startup time, and battery life, to give you a minimal terminal to access your online life from anywhere. It's cheap enough that you'd likely buy it in addition to a normal notebook, and between being rugged (SSD) and cheap, you wouldn't worry about banging it around as you take it everywhere. It doesn't apologize for not starting OpenOffice quickly, or other traditional things you'd do with a notebook (let alone gaming)... That's not its purpose, and if you miss those things, look at #2. The original Eee nailed it.

2) Sub-sub-notebooks. These are the "larger" ones, which work as super light notebook for people who travel away from their main PC a lot. More CPU, a little heavier, a much bigger screen, somewhat less battery life, and you get a tiny, convenient notebook. It costs more. It's more about "running applications" than "hop online for a second". See: Dell, or the new Eee.

For me, the perfect netbook starts with #1, and keeps going in the direction of small, light, power efficient, instant-on, connectivity everywhere, and feels no shame about its limitations. To improve, try adding one of those trick transflective flip-around displays from the OLPC, and an ultra-low-power display-only mode to make it a usuable ebook... Or just put an e-ink display on the lid. Some are adding cell data interfaces... Good move, though plan pricing will probably render it useless.

Re:My take

[hattig]

I'd like to see someone build a notebook around a high-end NVIDIA Tegra applications processor, running a netbook Linux (e.g., Ubuntu).

This would be a real boost for battery life, but still powerful enough for day to day uses. It can accelerate video decode (1080p) which I see as being a good feature for such a device (unlike the article's author). In addition being a SoC it will reduce costs and motherboard space, which will lead to more room for more battery, or a slimmer profile, and certainly a lower price than the Intel Atom + 945 + ICH7 combination.

Modularity FTW!

[PontifexPrimus]

Yeah, that's a really good point - I'd want a netbook (or any laptop for that matter) to be modular. If I can swap out parts (or blocks of parts) upgrades can be done gradually, repairs are made much easier, and reconfiguring your system would be that much less of a chore; imagine being able to swap out processors with a couple of actions, doubling the running time! Or swapping out a color, "gaming" display with a very high res grayscale "reading" display for work or ebooks...

Re:Modularity FTW!

[LordVader717]

That would be a nightmare for heat management. Notebooks are carefully engineered to deal with exactly the amount of heat expected from the hardware.
Also it would make it bulkier and more expensive.

X86 under $100

[newsdee]

I'd like to see a brand that positions itself as the "under $100" Notebook and delivers at least the same specs as the EEE PC 4G.

In other words, instead of trying to replicate a laptop, just cram everything you can for the price. They could then update the product every year; at that price you can afford the upgrade often.

Probably not going to happen, as it would kill margins. But all the current machines will be available second-hand sooner or later and should reach that price point.

Re:X86 under $100

[Kent Recal]

I agree that this would be desirable but I guess profit margins would be so low that no manufacturer is interested in such a thing.
It has been said many times that the (almost) perfect laptop can be built today. One in each size. Just nobody is interested in actually building it because to whom would they market their next model?

Re:X86 under $100

[RiotingPacifist]

why X86? if people are serious about netbooks why not start using a more power efficient archetecture (probably ARM).

Re:X86 under $100

[newsdee]

You'd want X86 for backwards compatibility, unless you can emulate (DosBox) or simulate (Wine), then I agree it's irrelevant. The former works great already, but the latter still has some time to go (but gets better every year).

Btw there are already a few interesting hardware products done in ARM, check the GP2X Wiz and the OpenPandora (although those are geared more towards gaming than general-purpose computing).

Pandora!

[Agilo]

What, no mention of the Pandora?
I know it's not really a netbook but still..

Nokia E61i

[Anonymous Coward]

I basically do all I need on my 61
-even writing this.
Read emaiks,RSS and googling combined with navigation: I seldom use my PC nowadays.
Ohh, and of course use it for SMS, VoIP and ordinary telephone.

/ Owen, Denmark

Re:Nokia E61i

[schnikies79]

Can't touch type on it? No thanks.

Re:Nokia E61i

[teh kurisu]

You could touch-type on it, if you had really small hands.

(A comment that could be made about most netbooks, incidentally.)

I can't comment on the E61i, but the E61's keyboard is really horrible to type on. The E71's keyboard is a massive improvement.

I actually RTFA... (part 2)

[neokushan]

There's nothing to see here. The author doesn't put forward any good points about making a good netbook, he just whines about how the current ones don't suit him as well as they could.
"Do I need to play games? No" - really? Maybe I do. Maybe I don't necessarily want Crysis running on it, but I wouldn't mind the odd blast at COD4, which the Asus N10 actually runs fairly well.
"Do I need to decode 720p/1080p? No" Good for you! I actually quite like my Hi-def entertainment and considering some of these have a HDMI output, I can honestly say I'd love to be able to bring one over to my friend's house, plug it into his TV and watch some Hi-Def porn. Sure, it's not what the thing is really intended for, but if it's possible to add such a feature, give me the option for it.

I think the article proves that what we need is simply more customisation. Currently, you have to shop around for the pre-configured models that asus, MSI, etc. produce. Even Dell offers a single configuration on their site with no room for improvement. Why can't I say "Ok, I don't want bluetooth, but I do want Wireless-N. And take that tiny SSD out and put a real hard drive in there, I'm not arsed about the 5% loss in battery life"?

Notebooks are doomed

[jeepee]

Nobody needs a notebook because its too bulky and requires a bag of some sort to transport, the same as a small laptop...

A Good internet enabled Phone and a Good laptop overlaps the niche of the notebook...

Re:Notebooks are doomed

[couchslug]

"Nobody needs a notebook because its too bulky and requires a bag of some sort to transport, the same as a small laptop...

A Good internet enabled Phone and a Good laptop overlaps the niche of the notebook..."

That may depend on the size of the person carrying it.

I'm 6'2"/230lbs and don't mind carrying a laptop (if it has a HANDLE like the Toughbooks, I don't get the lack of handles...) but would prefer a netbook with phone functionality. To each his/her/its own.

Maybe not so much a netbook...

[not-quite-rite]

But I would be very happy with the following:

an Atom based machine, with
a USB host port, and an
SD card slot,
GPS,
Wifi,
Bluetooth etc,
5 hour battery life

All in the form factor of an A4 sized(maybe even A5) iphone like device. Ie Glass screen, solid build, slim design.

If i need a keyboard for the thing i can use a bt one. It would be perfect for reading books, maps, basic games, browsing. And fit into a pack or bag nicely

Oh, and finally, it would run Linux of course

(if the price was around the 500AUD mark, it would be fantastic, but twice that would also be tolerable :)

Re:Maybe not so much a netbook...

[Anonymous Coward]

are you talking about n810?

Dream Netbook

[archshade]

Hardware

1. Battery life => 8hrs (with wifi)
2. 20GB+ SSD
3. 7"-10" screen
4. 256MB+ RAM
5. midrange(~1.5GHz) single core x86 processor optimized for increased battery life
6. 802.11n. and wired Ethernet.
7. 4+ USD port
8. DVI out
9. Well made rugged design

Software

1. light open OS optimized for hardware (such as *BSD or GNU/Linux distro)
2. Decent browser (firefox)
3. Simple Office (Abiworld etc)
4. Decent Email client (Thunderbird)
5. Frozen Bubble

6. easy access to more software and large repositories already activated.
   
   All for £100-£150 ($200-$300)

Re:Dream Netbook

[Creepy Crawler]

1. Battery life => 8hrs (with wifi)

Agreed. With my IBM T61 with 9 cell and super-battery (fits in dvd drive slot), I routinely get 8.5 hrs IF the screen is off half the time.

      2. 20GB+ SSD

IIRC, SSD right now have no to negative effect on battery usage. There should be a fair amount of energy used to power these, but right now, they just were working on them to get them to work, not be power-friendly. That'll take time.

      3. 7"-10" screen

I'd like a screen in the same proportions that of 8.5/11 paper, so I can read all softs of material as I would read text. I'm thinking of journals, PDFs, PS, DJVU, and god knows how many other book formats.

      4. 256MB+ RAM

No argument there. I'd also settle with slower ram for more quantity.

      5. midrange(~1.5GHz) single core x86 processor optimized for increased battery life

My biggest argument here. Why X86? I'd go with whatever is highest on battery:compute time. And as you express with software (all OSS), it would be trivial to duplicate a repository for a different CPU type. The only thing you'd lose is WINE compatibility. And to regain that (I have a linux machine running on a Sparc lunchbox), just use X and execute on a X86 machine. Considering that this device will have nearly complete wireless connectivity, remote executing a X86 app would be trivial. Speaking from experience here, btw.

      6. 802.11n. and wired Ethernet.

Erm, more than that. First, the N standard isnt complete. I'd stick with G for the time being, and have the G as a removable module for when N is complete. This modularity would allow for future-N compat. We also need bluetooth for syncing with other devices. Wired-E is perfectly fine. Stick with 100MBps. After all, no need to go 1GBps unless it's a .10$ extra cost.

      7. 4+ USD port

You could do that. I'd rather like 2 USB, 1 Firewire, 1 eSata ports, 1 IrDA. With Irda, you could have a remote control driver for home consoles. Esata allows for big HD's, firewire for DVcams, and USB for misc devices. One could use BT for mouse/keyboard, though security is kinda wanting.

      8. DVI out
      9. Well made rugged design

Re:Dream Netbook

[archshade]

Take your point about processor ARM chip probably would be better

SSDs are on one hand more rugged as no moving parts and the main reason I'd like them on a netbook but according to this article they can be made more power efficient and OCZ has done so.

Id want at least 3 USB ports so I could connect up USB mouse and KB and one more device. but would be happy with no BT as I never use it and it is my dream netbook

Re:Dream Netbook

[waferbuster]

I agree with your list, with a couple of additions:

I want a higher resolution screen! The 901 is perfect for me, except for that crappy 600 vertical pixels. What's up with that? The HP has a reasonable resolution, but uses that antique C7 chip from VIA. Asus makes about a zillion different versions of the EEE, but all of them with that low-resolution screen. Yep, even the 10 inch versions.
It's a conspiracy, I tell ya!

ASUS (and other venders): If you want my money, give me a higher resolution. I'm ready to plonk down my money right now.
Other things that would be nice:
1. Lower power chipset. Making the 945 chipset the default for the atom is just stupid. How about making the northbridge and southbridge on 45nm technology!
2. Wireless that works on 802.11a/b/g/n with dual-band N (yes, either 2.4 or 5Ghz). If wi-fi ever takes off, I'll be interested. But I'm not holding my breath.
3. Faster SSD. Yes, I know the new Intel SSD is very expensive. But hey, this is an ultimate netbook.

Ubuntu

[Anonymous Coward]

Ubuntu Netbook Remix.

Even crappy netbooks like Sylvania's are getting good reviews for the software part.

trustedreviews.com...

[spinctrl]

needs to figure out what a netsite ought to be first!

The consumer electronics catalogue/blog fails to present the facts in a consistent way, search sucks, categories not tags, overly opinionated waffle misses that leaves out important facts... click through to read more!
<< 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10>>

Re:Cheap. What's the point?

[Curtman]

What's the point? If all you've got is a low end CPU you aren't going to be doing any serious graphics anyway.

I thought the point was to be small and portable with long battery life. Get a Nintendo DS if you want to play games. The most "serious" graphics I expect are some desktop effects, and maybe watching a movie.

Exercise in futility.

[QuietLagoon]

Each person has her/his own idea of what the "ultimate" notebook should be. There is no one ultimate notebook for everyone, there is, however, one ultimate notebook for each person.
.

Must be a slow news day....

One thing I wish would start catching on

[bahstid]

eSATA!

Re:Cheap. What's the point?

[lysergic.acid]

yea, what's a decent video card for a $150 laptop? anything mid-range would cost almost as much as the laptop itself. integrated graphics would be good enough for anything you'd look to do on a netbook.

Build in 3G

[Anonymous Coward]

Build in high speed 3G (7.2 mbps) would be a minimum for me to have a netbook be classified as "ultimate".

I think an Apple Tablet could kill here ...

[RevMike]

Start with the iPhone/iPod Touch's design, and scale it up to about 10x7, the same size as a typical large format paperback like an O'Reilly book. Aside from built in WiFi and BlueTooth, he device includes an Express Card slot and several USB ports, so that it can accommodate the broadband network cards offered by both the HSDPA and EvDO providers. The underlying specs will be closer to a MacBook or MacBook Air.

In iTouch mode, it will be able to do all the things the iTouch does, as well as connect to the 3G cell phone networks with the appropriate adapter. Email, web browsing, etc. are all there. This mode will operate in a low power mode.

One of the "applications" available in the iTouch interface will be an option to boot a full os, which can be some combination of Mac OS X and Windows via bootcamp. Now it becomes a full laptop. A keyboard and mouse can be connected via USB or BlueTooth. An external monitor can be connected via a mini-DVI adapter.

In my view, this would work very well for digital nomads and road warriors. The small device would fit easily into almost any bag, and wouldn't require a true laptop bag. It could be used on a plane or a park bench. It could be whipped out at a moments notice and immediately be useful. At the same time, it is easy to throw a keyboard and mouse into a bag with clothing for a business trip, and have a nice environment to work on documents and presentations at the hotel. When visiting a client, it could be plugged into a projector and run the presentation just as well as a typical laptop.

The problem with this scheme is that the price point wouldn't be anywhere close to the netbooks. This would be a $1,500 machine that would compete with ultra-portables, potentially remaking that segment. I can imagine that the technology could quickly trickle down, however.

1600x1200 pixel screen

[yoghurt]

My ideal notebook would have a 15" 4:3 aspect 1600x1200 viewing panel.

Homercar.

[Trelane]

That says it all.

It already exists.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an Asus EeePC 901.

It *is* the ultimate netbook.

It has a 1.8Ghz Atom processor, faster than my desktop's AthlonXP 1800+. It has no problem crunching numbers or playing highly compressed high-quality video.

The 1GB of standard RAM is fine. I'd rather 2GB in dual-channel, especially since ram only costs 12$/GB or so, but I also have no troubles running Windows 200 Server, Firefox with 50+ open tabs, thunderbird, Apache2 with 10 concurrent users, Trillian, Winamp, Filezilla, and a dozen other services on a local server with an AthlonXP 1800+ with 640MB RAM, so 1GB is fine.

It's 12GB of space, spanned over two internal solid state drives, plus a 16GB SD-card means I have all the space I want (and with the three USB2.0 ports, unlimited room for expansion) and can also simply leave it on all day while moving from room to room and place to place - just stuff it in my briefcase and go - as there are no moving parts (pick it up and shake it while it's running - no damage, no headcrashes).

Speaking of leaving it on all day, it averages 8h:30mins of actual use per charge. Longer when in self-initiated standby half of the day.

The screen is nice, clear, and not a glare screen. It has a slightly imperfect resolution of 1024x600, but that has not yet caused a problem in any application. The graphics card is fast enough to handle UnrealTournament comfortably, giving ~30fps @ 800x600, 32-bit color, all settings "High", dynamic lighting, etc. Since I've only installed a few LAN-games like GTA2, Starcraft, ete it works perfectly for everything I've thrown at it.

The wireless network card is not only "N"-compatible, but AiroPeek drivers exist for it, and it can put into passive mode and can be used for wardriving/wireless network analysis.

The webcam is fairly good quality, sharp, and clear.

With a 20$/month contract, I have a USB2.0 stick that provides wireless internet (3G/UMTS) flatrate between 2,000 to 7,000 kbps.

The only thing that could be better would be to use an NVIDIA Quadro 280 graphic chip instead of the silly Intel chip (compatibility and quality reasons) and to use a dual-core Atom processor (that will soon be available), and both I would consider a luxury.

Also the thing is so cheap I got it for free with a dirt cheap (15$/month) mobile phone contract.

I would just like them to be modular

[bazorg]

Netbooks are close to my ideal the way they are now. I would probably ask for a bit of flexibility by adding an area close to the USB ports where we could hide a USB dongle for 3G or other forms of communications.

The mass storage should also be a plug-in. I'd be happy with a 4GB SSD most of the time but going back to that other Slashdot discussion on what to take for a roud-the-world trip, a bigger HDD would be great for carrying photos.

Instead of the trackpad I'd probably prefer a trackpoint or a Nintendo style set of buttons, which would not be a bad use of the space around the screen.

As for OS, I like the idea of seeing Linux laptops at mainstream stores, I'm just waiting for Skype and hardware manufacturers to react to that and make voip truly ubiquitous.

Just say no

[Ophion]

to the clit mouse.

Compact, light, strong or cheap.

[Anonymous Coward]

If it is cheap, I can just pick up a new one if I break it. If it is strong, I don't have to worry about it breaking so much.

I just want to throw the sucker in my bag and not worry about it.

What happened to the Tablet PC ?

[pcairic]

Something I am longing for is a cheap 9-10 inch tablet PC. Is it so hard to make a tactile screen and a hinge that will allow the screen to hide the keyboard? How about no keyboard at all? B/W screen is ok and e-paper would extend the battery life.

Re:What happened to the Tablet PC ?

[owlstead]

It's dead in the water because it runs a system that is to be used with a keyboard, and you can not easily use a keyboard while on the move. Clam-shells without touch screens are pretty easy to make and not easy to break. People do not trust or like pen-based devices (I don't mind too much, but this seems to be the general feeling).

If you run another OS, you will miss the familiarity and you will have to rely on proprietary software. eInk cannot be used with any familiar GUI system: the updates are about .3 second minimum - and normally they seem to use fade out/fade in.

ideal netbook? here you go

[slaschdot]

important:
    good keyboard, at least 17,5x16,5mm
    umts, WLAN, LAN, Bluetooth, USB
    weight < 1,5kg
    Linux
    Expresscard
    VGA with different resolutions possible
not so important:
    big HD
    Display 10''
    battery time > 4h
    modem
    card reader
    mic, speaker
    webcam
unimportant:
    color (design)

A non-Intel processor

[david.given]

My ideal notebook would not be Intel architecture.

Let's face it, designing a notebook around an Intel processor is like designing a bicycle around a V8 truck engine. Even recent attempts to make them low-power are laughable; the Intel Atom may draw an unheard-of 4 watts, but the new generation of ARM chips have about the same processing capabilities and draw *0.3* watts (plus you get a DSP and a PowerVR 3D accelerator for free).

The only possible reason for wanting an IA32 processor is if you're going to run Windows; which is fine, if you want to do that, but I don't. So why should I, and all the people like me, be restricted to having to using hardware that's crippled by the need by a ludicrously power-hungry processor and all the heat-dissipation hardware necessary to make it go? I have an Asus eee 701; it has a *fan* in it. That's simply absurd in a machine that size.

Lose the Intel processor, and it'll be cheaper, lighter and you're probably quadruple the battery life...

Re:A non-Intel processor

[Anonymous Coward]

Because people with wishes like yours are 1% of the market.

Re:A non-Intel processor

[Anonymous Coward]

Lots of power goes to the display, so below a certain point lower CPU power consumption stops helping much.

Re:A non-Intel processor

[jabuzz]

I think you will find that a dual core Cortex A9 ARM at 1GHz will run rings around the Atom.

I would like to see the above mentioned ARM coupled with one of the screens of a XO-1, complete with the build quality of the XO-1.

The closest thing was the Palm Foleo, had it been boosted with some more flash storage.

Re:A non-Intel processor

[Anonymous Coward]

There are other components in most systems that soak up as much or more of the power budget than the Atom's 4 watts (for example, the display backlight). In that case you wouldn't see big gains in battery life by changing the CPU architecture, though perhaps you could get better performance.

My ideal netbook is inexpensive, hence high sales volume. Windows compatibility is a feature even for those of us who don't use it, to the extent that it broadens the market for this kind of device, and drives down the price.

Re:A non-Intel processor

[david.given]

I haven't seen any specs yet for the A9, but it does look very, very cool. In more ways than one...

(I was actually thinking of the A8 in my post; that runs so cool that in the BeagleBoard dev kit, they actually glue the RAM to the top of the processor! I'd like to see someone do *that* with an Atom.)

Re:A non-Intel processor

[jmorris42]

> My ideal notebook would not be Intel architecture.

Exactly right. But not a $100 laptop like that HiVision thingy coming next month. Why is it accepted wisdom that only the cheapest model can run Linux? Linux on a netbook works just great and Linux doesn't care about the CPU arch much. But we do need video playback and flash plugin support so the MIPS in those Chinese netbooks aren't going to cut it. You need an ARM.

My 'ideal' netbook:

Start with a Thinkpad keyboard. Notice the eraserhead pointer. Must have. Now eliminate the stupid pad and you can cut the form factor down a lot. Yes you have to be wider to have a full notebook keyboard but if you will note the resulting formfactor is ideal for putting a wide display on without any wasted space. Give it 1280x720 or 1280x768 so it can playback HD video. Make sure the rest of the system can keep up, but it isn't required that it get great battery life while doing something that extreme.

With an ARM and a LED backlight it should be possible to get a good battery life on 'ordinary' document creation and web browsing without larding the thing down with too many batteries. You really need to be able to run 6-8 hours to avoid the need to carry the charger around all day.

What will be totally cool will be when eInk gets perfected with color and fast response time. Imagine what that will do to runtime when the backlight can go and everything but the WiFi can stay powered down 90% of the time.

Re:A non-Intel processor

[Stephen Ma]

One percent of which market?

Re:A non-Intel processor

[Roman Mamedov]

Then Gdium or Lemote would be a good choice, if they actually sold these anywhere, that is.

Re:A non-Intel processor

[paulius_g]

The Atom processor doesn't take only 4W, that would be great if it did, but it's chipset is the killer. Intel Atom's chipset takes a whopping 20W of juice!

Compare that to VIA's X86 processor, which takes up about 15W of power, but doesn't require a monster chipset like the Intel CPU does.

I absolutely agree with you, a powerful ARM chip would be amazing. It wouldn't be the fastest thing out there, but very reasonable, and the battery would last nearly forever.

Re:A non-Intel processor

[Mista2]

I don't want windows, but I do want flash, and al FULL web browser and a citrix client. These proprietary apps will only currently work on PPC and Intel CPUs. PPC are completely out of the game because of their power requirements.
How about a 3GHZ Core Duo that becomes a 1.6GHz core solo when on battery?

Re:A non-Intel processor

[Jorophose]

Well, I don't think this would be ever be useful, but if an ARM CPU (is ARM11 better than ARM9? what's with the naming?...) consumes 0.3W, and the Atom 4W (let's go to fantasy land and pretend the chipsets are the same at 4W), imagine having 12 cores. Something like the Cell does? You know, DSP and ARM and stuff. (I'm not too good with CPU archs...) And anyway, a few watts saved is a few watts saved... Plus, e-ink is getting cheap enough, why not use that? (or am I right in thinking conventional LCDs are better for fast-moving stuff?)

Re:A non-Intel processor

[sssssss27]

That's the desktop chipset which is based on a 3 year old design. The chipset they have for netbooks is much much nicer. The upper end SCH, system controller hub as they like to call it, has a TDP of 2.3 watts. So combined the Atom with the SCH only uses 6.3 watts.

Reality check: the "net" portion

[GaryOlson]

The majority of the comments are focusing on the "book" part; and mostly ignoring the "net" part. Current wifi, proprietary cellular, or true-high speed wired network are not pervasive or interoperable enough to provide effectively for the "net" part.

The "netbook" is just smoke so far. No real fire.

Re:Reality check: the "net" portion

[mattr99_uk]

Current wifi, proprietary cellular, or true-high speed wired network are not pervasive or interoperable enough to provide effectively for the "net" part.

I'd like to see if mesh networking could help with this - if enough machines could forward packets to and from a gateway then you might get good results in cities/towns.

Re:Reality check: the "net" portion

[Anonymous Coward]

Time and time again I hear my fellow engineering students complaining that they don't want to have to lug around a big laptop just to check wikipedia or similar sites for additional information during lecture, if there was a netbook that came into their price range it would sell like hot cakes.

Sure municipal wifi coverage isn't that great, but many places of individual coverage that compensates nicely.

I have the perfect solution

[Lord Byron II]

So, he says he wants:

all day battery life
HSDPA (and a contract is okay) so he can surf the web anywhere
bluetooth

He says he doesn't need:
ability to play games
great sound quality
a lot of RAM or storage

It sounds like he just wants a web-enabled cell phone. Google's/T-Mobile's Android G1 should be perfect for him.

As for me, I'd like more memory, because I know I'll use it. I don't care about HSDPA, because I'm not about to enter into yet another cell phone contract. I don't care about bluetooth, because I'm not going to use an external mouse. I want pre-N wireless, because I'm going to be using it sometime in the next couple of years.

Needs one of these

[david in brasil]

NSFW - http://www.toyssexshop.com/products/bms4321.htm

Battery Life is most important IMHO

[Dreen]

Battery Life of the Netbooks has to exceed what normal laptops are capable of. And that is because these machines are supposed for mobile enviroment, so 3 hours is NOT ENOUGH. I'd say 7 hours would convince me to buy a netbook, rest of specs are less important.

Netbooks

[edbob]

1. They need to be cheap. Very cheap. They should be cheap enough that they could be given away much like USB memory sticks are today. A high-end netbook should cost no more than $20. Lower-end models should cost no more than a few dollars.

2. They need to be powerful to run all the new whiz-bang Web 2.0 stuff and any other application that someone might want to run. The Atom processor may be fine for now, but newer netbooks will need four- or eight-core processors to handle loading web pages. When I press the power button, I want to be ready to go instantly. My first computer booted up in five seconds and it had a 1 MHz (that's megahertz, not gigahertz) processor. With the processors we have now, a computer should be ready to go before I take my finger off the power button.

3. They need connectivity. Cheap or free Wi-Fi or WiMax so that they can perform their primary function -- loading web pages.

4. They need to be small. Very small. I should be able to fit one comfortably in my shirt pocket.

5. They need a large screen to view websites without having to scroll all the time. A 17-inch screen should be minimal with a 19- or 21-inch screen preferred.

6. The battery needs to last a long time. Even using the wireless connectivity continuously, these things should run for a year or more on two AA batteries.

7. They need to be durable, yet stylish. I should be able to take it from the job site to the coffee shop. They need to be dust- and water-proof. Maintenance should only consist of a wipe-down with a wet rag to clean off any dust or dirt. I should be able to stick it in the dishwasher to clean it and it should be able to survive being washed and dried with my clothes if it gets forgotten in a pocket.

8. They need to be dead simple to operate. Someone operating one of these things should not need a CS degree. The interface should be navigable by a 3-year-old. It should not require an easily-lost external mouse or keyboard, but it should have expansion ports (preferably USB) to add one or both if desired.

Re:Netbooks

[Mista2]

How about a Macbook Air, with a built in data card that can be sold on a data plan like an iPhone?

NZ$3000 laptop, on a 500MB or 1GB data only plan for $130 per month

I guess the problem is Apple can't subsidise the cost though iTunes like they can with iPhone.

Re:Netbooks

[Anonymous Coward]

4. They need to be small. Very small. I should be able to fit one comfortably in my shirt pocket.

5. They need a large screen to view websites without having to scroll all the time. A 17-inch screen should be minimal with a 19- or 21-inch screen preferred.

Explain. There is NO current way that you would be able to get both of these requirements.

There should not be one.

[dominux]

there should be a range of computers allowing each person to select their own ultimate compromise of features and price. Collaboration works better if everyone can join in. I have been working with Elonex in the UK on a couple of computers at the low end of the price spectrum, I am not allowed to use the c word to describe them, but they are as inexpensive as chips and dirt good value. The webbook is a VIA X86 laptop running Ubuntu, fairly traditional architecture. Below that is the One and OneT. The One has an X86 again, but not very quick. It is in an unusual and inovative form factor, basically a digital picture frame with a detachable keyboard. It retails at £99 which is not a lot. The OneT is a clamshell case and it is based on the Xburst chip which is a mipsel architecture (little endian MIPS instruction set). It comes with a simplified GUI and a single user operating system (which is marketing speak for everything running as root). I have it running Debian (text mode only so far). The important point is that with Linux who cares if it is an X86? this is perhaps the ultimate Software Freedom computer, it has no proprietary BIOS, it won't run Flash or pretty much any proprietary closed source stuff because they only get compiled for X86. In fact the processor isn't even running a proprietary instruction set. It runs the bits of MIPS that are no longer covered by copyright.

Do laptop companies *want* a standard?

[PolygamousRanchKid]

If components are interchangeable, they can be mass produced, and the price of them would fall.

If you can buy cheap, interchangeable components, and build your own, fat profit margins for laptops for Dell, Lenovo, Apple, etc. would disappear.

Buy building their own, non-modular laptops, they can sell products that differentiate their features from other companies: lighted keyboards, extremely thin, whatever.

Re:Do laptop companies *want* a standard?

[Jorophose]

It wouldn't be too difficult to make a laptop standard. VIA has its "Openbook" design that you can "freely" use (free depends on the situation).

But there's no Openbook kits, as far as I know.

Re:Do laptop companies *want* a standard?

[dragonturtle69]

If components are interchangeable, they can be mass produced, and the price of them would fall.

With a standard design and interchangeable parts, they would also be open to third party vendors. Laptops right now nearly have Apple's hardware lock on consumers.

My desktop system has evolved over the last 10 years, since I last purchased a complete new system in 1998. The 1.44 MB floppy drive is the part left from the original. With a laptop, I'm thinking I would hit 100% new system every two or three years.

I've spent about $500 for the original and less than $1,000 over the last 10 years in upgrades, less than $1,500 total. I would have purchased at least three laptops in the last eight years, totaling around $3,000. And this assuming that we are paying in full, not financing. If you finance, by the time its paid off at the minimum payments, it is almost time to re-purchase.

That is what Best Buy and similar seem to want; consumers to lease the equipment, and not to own and upgrade/repair as necessary.

Tablet format

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like a tablet, about the size of an A4 sheet of paper and the thickness of an Iphone. I don't need to to be a powerhouse, but it needs to be able to store some offline data and run productivity apps when there is no network connectivity. I don't expect miracles in battery life, but I should be able to carry spare batteries and change them without shutting the thing down. Bluetooth/wireless peripherals to reduce wiring clutter and reduce the need for too many extenal ports. A charger with a reasonable form factor. My target price would be about $1000.

From what I've seen the technology is there to do this. The people that invest in this sort of thing obviously don't believe there are enough people like me that will pay money for this. It's far more profitable to invest in the familiar.

Hmm, good this came up today...

[Anonymous Coward]

.. since I just made a wish list of sorts. Netbook makers, are you listening? This is what I'd like:

* a cool, low-power CPU, either the Atom or the Nano (but with x86_64 extensions)
* no installed OS, just the possibility of booting anything(DVD, flash drive, etc) over USB
* atleast a gig of ram
* 16GB+ of SLC SDD
* wifi, 10/100/1G ethernet (with a CPU that can handle that), 3G modem, SIM card module
* card reader(s), webcam, bluetooth, audio, VGA out, etc.
* 3x USB (maybe a couple more)
* internal cards with some standard (maybe Express/34 so that a lot of things could interchangeably fit (wireless modules, storage, 3G card, the works)
* good battery life - even if it means a bit more size/weight, atleast 6 hours. And flush with the base - having an angled battery sticking out is the Wrong Thing when I want to slide it into my leather folder (that generally holds paper).
* screen that's atleast 1280x800 and that remains visible in daylight. Keycuts to brighten/dim (I wish your management had this feature).
* configurable powersave options, configurable bios (i hate those goddamn bioses which dont allow you to change anything except the boot order)
* somewhere around the $450-$500 mark
* no other strings attached (maybe a carrying sleeve)

So there.
The SSD and the 3G stuff might notch up the price a bit, but with Atom noards for around $70 /with/ CPU, I think that should be doable. Except that these money-grubbing megacorps won't really think of giving a sane machine for a sane price. All the current netbooks are lopsided (atleast till the time they're sold with the microsoft tax.

So there you are.

nobody mentioned keyboard and buttons

[cellocgw]

First off, a minimum of four buttons should be in there. You listening, Apple? (and yeah, I'm a Mac evangelist). So sell the thing w/ the buttons all programmed for normal click, or two each normal and "right" click. Let the savants reprogram them.
Trackpad with programmable two-finger, side scroll, etc. like the newer machines tend to provide.
And first of all, a numeric keypad.
Second, a keyboard with action much more like a regular keyboard--personally I'd give up the extra 1/4 inch or so of overall laptop thickness for that.
And finally, a couple fold-out feet so you can prop the laptop up at a sensible angle for typing.

Give me all that and I won't even bitch about the lack of an fold-up 17inch display :-)

My favorite

[Anonymous Coward]

http://sexylosers.com/247.html

Exactly what I want

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, now we are two with similar needs. I bought a N810 with this idea in mind... it is a bit... small to write on it comfortably, and thick, but I could live with that.

Tablet form = useable everywhere

[Clarious]

A netbook with tablet form factor should be good, Gigabyte has already made one but still not good enough. I not only want something that I can bring everywhere but also be able to use everywhere. The one from gigabyte is too big and expensive for a netbook. It also need to be cheap, after all everything I demand from a netbook is web browsing, music and some paperworks. Oh, and it will be great if that netbook can boot in less than 10 seconds (= no windows :) )

Smartphone with larger Hardware

[Britz]

I would say the original Netbook was the Psion Netbook
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Netbook

And it already had everything I would want from a Netbook. Decent ruggedized hardware. Somewhere around 70% the size of a small notebook. And an embedded hardware and os for cheaper price and longer battery life. Smartphones already carry all the features most people would ever want. Webbrowsing, basic text editing and email. Plus wlan, bluetooth, gps, sd flash card slot and whatnot. So why not a Windows Mobile 6.1 subnotebook with flash based storage and usb for removeble storage? Bluetooth and wlan could be optional, based on price. And what about a gsm module. Heck, just any existing smartphone and add a larger keyboard and screen. And use the power from the larger battery to add the power for the larger screen. For eight to ten hours runtime.

But I am sure Microsoft prohibits that, because they don't want their five dollar os to eat away from their fifty dollar os. Symbian doesn't have a decent interface for that. Linux used to be problematic, because of the lacking powersave features.

Maybe someone will just use Android or whatever to finally build a normal Netbook again.

Nokia also has some sort of webpad with a Linux os and gui. Maybe that gui could do.

lose the keyboard

[jipn4]

Make the device a tablet, and make they keyboard optional. Provide a nice leather or fabric pouch that folds open and holds both the tablet and the keyboard when you want a full laptop.

Other than that, I think the EEE PCs are pretty close already.

Apple did, and the result is... limited

[jipn4]

Apple has entered this field; it's called the MacBook Air.

It's expensive, it's heavy, and it has limited connectivity options.

Everything, of course!

[supremebob]

My boss wants the fastest video processor and graphics card available, 12 hour battery life on 4 AA batteries, a total weight under 2 pounds, a full size keyboard, built in WiFi/3G/4G/WiMax networking with a free unlimited data service plan, and a total price under $300.

Oh, and he wanted it to be available yesterday. Come on, laptop manufacturers... don't let me down! ;)

Re:Everything, of course!

[FunkyRider]

Oh and he must also want a 17" wide screen with 1080p resolution screen cramped in a 4"x3" case too. And of course firewire, lots of firewire so he can plug his ass into it.

Toshiba Libretto

[Simon Brooke]

Bingo. On top of what the parent said, it should also be small (less than 12.1" screen) and lightweight with a battery life of at least 3 hours.

Bingo. On top of what the parent said, it should be small (less than 7.2" screen) and lightweight with a battery life of at least three hours...

Seriously, the best laptop I've ever had was a Toshiba Libretto 100CT. It had a screen resolution of (if I remember correctly) 1024x600, a perfectly usable (though small) keyboard, and mine ran Debian. It did everything I wanted of it, well - it even ran a full Oracle 8 database - and it fit easily into a coat pocket.

If I was designing a netbook now I'd start with the Libretto form factor, use solid state memory for backing store (definitely no hard disk) and finish it with about 2mm of rubber all round, for splash proofing and increased shock protection. It would run Ubuntu (possibly the netbook special build) and weigh not more than the Libretto - which is to say 910 grammes.

If Toshiba could build that machine in 1996, it shouldn't be difficult to do the same now, with solid state storage and better battey life. A Netbook - or a Libretto - is not meant to be your main computer. It's meant to be something you have with you virtually all the time. It needs to be robust because it's going to take knocks. It needs to be small, otherwise it's awkward to carry. It needs to be light for the same reason. If it doesn't have the graphics or the horsepower to run Crysis, well, frankly, I can live without.

Re:Toshiba Libretto

[bamf]

It had a screen resolution of (if I remember correctly) 1024x600

It was 800x480 on the 100CT, which I found to be it's biggest downside. I've still got one at home somewhere.

Re:Toshiba Libretto

[petermgreen]

According to the information I can find on the internet your model of libretto only had a screen resoloution of 800x480.

IMO the trouble with reducing netbook size below that of the EEE 900 is that 1024 pixels is the minimum screen width at which the modern web can comfortablly be browsed and doing 1024x600 on a screen any smaller than that on an EEE 900 is going to render things painfully small. Some of the later librettos did use screens with such tiny pixels and I wonder if that contributed to the libretto lines downfall.

Slightly O/T

[jabithew]

If you have a 3G USB modem is your machine running Linux? I ask because I got my grandad onto an Aspire One with Linux as the OS and he can't get a (vodafone UK) 3G modem working with it. I haven't had a look myself (he's halfway across England from me), was just wondering if you could shed light?

Re:Slightly O/T

[Tony Hoyle]

99% of 3G modems just show up as a serial modem running AT commands. It's just a tweak of wvdial to get them working with Linux.

The last one I had (Three) needed a kick to switch it into serial mode, but IIRC that was just an unmount of its virtual drive.

Re:Slightly O/T

[Linker3000]

Head over here:

http://www.aspireoneuser.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=34

It's doable.

Re: 3 year old notebook...

[TaoPhoenix]

Yes!

You recognized that some of us aren't hooked on "small is king". Web pages are being built for big screens, so why not let the "netbook" have a decent screen.

It's not supposed to handle Halo 4 or such, but "the web" still has some processing requirements.

Currently I think "last generation" notebook is perfect for "this generation's netbook". It becomes the ultimate in recycling!! (After all, Going Green is finally in with the fall of the SUV mentality.)

I practice what I promote: I just bought a "netbook" off a friend for about $100, and another $150 in addon stuff from MediocreBuy.

The Acer One works pretty well for me

[ducomputergeek]

My last old Windows laptop finally died 2 weeks ago. I'm still clinging to my 12.1" last generation PowerBook for most of my day to day work, but there are two applications that are windows-only that I need to run at least once a week. I was about to break down and buy a new 15" MBP, but happened to be at Best Buy and saw the Acer One.

Specs:

1.6Ghz Atom
1GB Ram
120GB HDD
Built-in wireless
Built-in Web Cam
XP home
Price: $375 after all taxes.

I get a good 5 hours of battery life, it runs the two applications I need to run, and for the price, it was worth every penny.

HDMI out

[rgm3]

• HDMI out
• More than 8 hours battery life playing video

Built in 3G is not a good idea

[Kupfernigk]

I'm posting this from my boat, by the way. My 3G modem is at the top of the mast, where it works well. At deck level, no signal. Same thing last week at a meeting; I actually had the dongle hooked over a picture on the wall, because at desk level I wasn't getting a good enough signal. Steel framed buildings can be a pain. People can move around to get a good mobile phone signal, and the phone is at a relatively high level, but netbooks do not lend themselves to working so well that way.

sure

[zogger]

a slightly larger OLPC XO, with their nifty screen advantage, with at least two gigs of ram, 10-20 gigs of flash, and the original idea of an additional crank charger built in. And wireless, including a place for a SIM card. And it can run any modern linux or bsd distro, it doesn't need any sort of special tweaked version.

To me a netbook is-should be- like a wide PDA and phone combo. You should have the ability to access any sort of network, wired or wireless, and it is a full computer with a "big enough" keyboard so it doesn't completely suck. Ya, it will mission creep to small "normal" laptop/notebook size, oh well, that's around the sweet spot I think that balances very portable plus very practical, somewhere around a ten inch screen, that allows for a more normal sized keyboard as well.

HSDPA/UMTS

[messner_007]

HSDPA/UMTS built in .... not in a stupid dongle.

Battery life, battery life, battery life...

[argent]

As much battery as you can pack in, even if it makes it a bit thicker, and the battery pack should snap on somewhere near the back so that you can add a third-party "fat pack" battery. If there's any space left, add a slot that can hold a second drive, so you can use it as a laptop replacement when the net's not available, without dragging around a USB dongle. A full sized CF slot for a microdrive would work. But worry about that after you've loaded it down with all the battery you can carry.

Boot time should be

[brentonboy]

as close to instantaneous as possible. I should be able to pull my netbook out of my bag in the middle of a conversation, boot it up, and look up the definition of a word in less than 30 seconds. Also, netbooks should come with more utilities prominently placed by default, like dictionaries, and calculators. The sort of widgets that are absurd and cumbersome on a desktop might find their use in a place where you can whip out the computer, check the weather, and then stow it away again.

With Present Technology

[Azuma Hazuki]

My ultimate Netbook, with the present tech, would look something like this:

VIA Nano U2400 1 GB DDR2-800 RAM 12GB Solid-state storage 1280x800 screen "Friendly" (92%-scale) keyboard 802.11a/b/g(/n?) wireless Runs Linux (of course!)

As to why...well, the Nano supposedly gets almost twice the performance per watt that a Celeron-M does, and the U2400 takes about 1.5 times as much juice as the Celeron-M in the Eee 900 and company. That's offset by (at least in this theoretical model) being paired with a much more efficient chipset than the power-hungry ancient ICH Intel decided to stick the Atom and Cel-M with. As to the screen, the HP Mininote can already do 1280x800. The one thing I hate about my Eee 900 is the 1024x600 screen. And of course, it should be 100% Linux compatible.

A machine like this would be about on par with, or maybe better than, an Inspiron 600m as far as processing power goes, and probably faster with its solid state drive and 1 GB of DDR2 RAM. I could even see myself installing Gentoo on it (shunting /var/tmp/portage off into tmpfs of course).

The "original" netbook was the Psion netBook

[Scooby1680]

Why is it that the 'original' netbook - the XO1 - can get 9-10 hours of battery life

Psion released the netBook in 2000. I have a Psion Series 7 (upgraded to netBook firmware). It runs Opera on Epoc, is wireless compatible (well, only to 802.11b and only with two wireless cards ;)), has a wonderful keyboard (the best I've ever typed on at that size), gets 8-10 hours of battery life, has a 640x480 4096 colour touch screen with stylus, has an email client, third party instant messaging solutions, Office-compatible word processor and spreadsheet, and a JVM (which is stuck at about Java 1.2 I think). It has no HD (but does have a CF card slot and since you can get CF up to 32GB now...) and is instant off and on. I bought the docking station to sync with the PC through PsiWin.

I wonder why the form factor has been so neglected after it was done so well eight years ago? I can only speculate that it didn't sell all that well at the time. The original design doesn't need much done to it - were you to give me:

• A good browser w/updated JVM and a decent level of Flash
• Updated office software with better compatibility with Windows out of the box
• A better screen (1024x600 is plenty at that size, and OLED for preference)
• Built-in 802.11n and 3G
• Instant messaging

... then I'd take your arm off.

Re:The "original" netbook was the Psion netBook

[petermgreen]

Well mobile internet functionality wasn't much use 8 years ago because the infrastructure wasn't there.

back in 2000 802.11a and 802.11b had only just been standardised. Wikipedia doesn't give dates for HSCSD and GPRS but I don't think they were common in 2000 if indeed they existed at all.

You claim the word processor and spreadsheet were office compatible but what exactly do you mean by that?

Fast Boot

[msslc3]

If I want to write a quick note, surf a web page, or Google (r) a search, what I miss most in my computers today is the ability to turn the thing on and be ready to work in a few seconds. Give me a quick booting machine and I'll buy now.

Apple didn't

[itsdapead]

Apple has entered this field; it's called the MacBook Air. It's expensive, it's heavy, and it has limited connectivity options.

For heaven's sake folks, the Air isn't a Netbook - its a regular 13.3" widescreen form-factor laptop (which is about the minimum size for a full-sized keyboard and better-than-XGA display) that's been made super-slim, and then made to look even slimmer by clever design. Its aimed squarely at well-off Mac users who want a small laptop to supplement their iMac, don't want a MacBook Pro (pretty, but relatively hefty) but fancy something a bit more "executive" than the regular MacBook. Its no power-house, but it has considerably more grunt than most netbooks. The connectivity is stripped out because it is assumed that you'll use WiFi and Bluetooth (there's a clue in the name). The seriously expensive SSD option is intended to give HD-equivalent capacity. Its main competitors would have been smaller, sexy and equally expensive ultra-compacts, and the killer features would have been the keyboard, and that it slipped into a briefcase designed for A4/Letter documents better than a smaller-but-thicker computer. Yet, somehow, the reviews always put the Air head-to-head with the $300 EEE PC 701, rather than $3000 worth of carbon-fibre bonsai from Sony.

Just for the record, I own 0 (zero) MacBook Airs and 1 (one) EEE PC 701 (and am tempted to upgrade to a 901) - but I just find the comparison bizzarre.

Re:Apple didn't

[Foodie]

Geeze. Don't blow a fuse. He was joking about the MBA... it's like a netbook because it has limited connectivity options and you get all defensive about it.

Re:Apple didn't

[jipn4]

For heaven's sake folks, the Air isn't a Netbook

You're right: the MacBook Air is too expensive and too heavy. But Apple was going for the netbook market with the device, they just missed.

its a regular 13.3" widescreen form-factor laptop

It most certainly is not. Regular laptops have bigger screens, optical drives, faster processors, replaceable batteries, etc. Most serious road warriors can't get by with the MacBook Air as their only laptop. I know: I was seriously considering it.

Just for the record, I own 0 (zero) MacBook Airs and 1 (one) EEE PC 701 (and am tempted to upgrade to a 901) - but I just find the comparison bizzarre

And I also own an EEE PC. But I certainly looked at the MacBook Air; a netbook with a full sized keyboard would have been nice. In the end, the price, lack of interchangeable battery, and operating system on the MacBook Air made me go with the EEE PC. The MacBook Air was neither a good netbook nor a full laptop replacement.

And Apple seems to be genetically incapable of producing inexpensive machines. The eMate was the closest they ever had to something that met the requirements of a netbook, and it was $800.

Re:Apple didn't

[itsdapead]

It most certainly is not. Regular laptops have bigger screens,

Define "regular" - the Air has a 13.3" screen, same size and res as the regular MacBooks, well within the range of other smaller "regular" laptops, such as the Sony Vaio S series. That also leaves room for a full-sized keyboard.

The "netbook" market didn't exist when Apple conceived the Air. The real, end-of-argument, unique selling point of the netbook concept, for my money, is that they are dirt cheap and worth considering as an internet phone/radio, dedicated web browser/"Frozen Bubble" game even if you already have a "proper" laptop. The Air was clearly designed as a premium-priced "boutique" laptop - a shuttlecraft for starship iMac.

The eMate was the closest they ever had to something that met the requirements of a netbook, and it was $800.

Which was probably considerably cheaper than a "proper" laptop back in the late 90s.

Re:Apple didn't

[jipn4]

Define "regular" - the Air has a 13.3" screen, same size and res as the regular MacBooks, well within the range of other smaller "regular" laptops

Regular laptops have screens of 15" now. 12-13" has been subnotebook class for several years.

The "netbook" market didn't exist when Apple conceived the Air. The real, end-of-argument, unique selling point of the netbook concept, for my money, is that they are dirt cheap

You can get laptops for about the same price as netbooks. And a gold-plated netbook is still a netbook. What defines a netbook is that it's not useful as a full laptop, but instead mostly useful for web browsing, presentations, and editing. That makes the MacBook Air a netbook.

Which was probably considerably cheaper than a "proper" laptop back in the late 90s.

Not as I recall; I looked at the eMate but went with a laptop for not much more money.

Re:Apple didn't

[Reservoir Penguin]

Air has a more powerful CPU and Video Card than the regular Macbook and you are saying it's only good for browsing and editing?

Screen Resolution - just a smidge bigger...

[smithmc]

Most of the current crop of netbooks seem to have settled on WSVGA resolution (1024x600). IMO this is just a little bit too small for serious work. WXGA (1280x768 or 800) would be so much nicer. And it's not like it can't be done; my several-year-old Fujitsu P2120 fits 1280x768 pixels into 10 inches. If only it didn't have a crappy 933 MHz Crusoe, and had more up-to-date wireless (802.11b only with no WPA support), and some more memory (1GB or so vs. the 256MB it came with), it would be the perfect netbook. And with the 6-cell main battery and the media bay battery installed, it literally will run all day long.

My ultimate netbook... And the...

[jopsen]

Is a tablet with SSD, touchscreen and a pretty design... Pretty much like the internet tablet techcrunch wanted to design...

But I think the keyword for a successful netbook is to have a pretty design, drop x86, and tightly integration software!
Everybody seems to be forgetting the most important thing software... Make a netbook that will be remotely administered by manufacturer... Screw customers freedom, unless they ask for it, and let the manufacture own the root account... Don't give users a root account!

A pretty design and a system supported, as in remotely administered by manufacture, promoted through capabilities not system specs, is the key to success...
Tell the user that the browser will open in 0.5 sec and the wordprocessor in 0.8 sec... And that the system will boot in 10 sec... And that they don't have to worry about updating software and installing applications, because they can't do that it will be remotely administered by the manufacturer...

Okay, I'm not sure about the "remotely administered" which means not root access for user... But for the average Joe it might be good... One might allow root access but tell users that it breaks software support warranty.
Nevertheless, the key to sucess which I think everybody is forgetting is that lowering system specs requires serious software/hardware integration in order to work good...

Re:My ultimate netbook... And the...

[sethstorm]

For the most part, you described the Thinkpad.

Re:My ultimate netbook... And the...

[Jorophose]

If you're going tablet, please please please put a slide-out keyboard! Tablets are nice and slide-out keyboards make them all the more flexible.

To be honest though, at that point it makes more sense just to have a PMP that can do Wifi and 3G... (what's the point of wireless N? unless you want to stream vids, but they'd be 480i/480p only...)

resolution,3G,keyboard,lightweight,phone

[presidenteloco]

-Resolution of 1024x768
-3G and WiFi and WiMax (seamless)
-big enough keys& separations
-500 grams weight so I can take it with me
anywhere.
- can be my cellphone too with
bluetooth earphone+mic
- Fits into pocket

Is this too much to ask from a netbook?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe I'm alone here but I see a "netbook" as being ultimate productivity wherever and whenever with a little ability for fun(most people don't want to work during the whole plane or train trip). I was thinking something like:

atom dual core for netbooks
2 gb ram
30-40 gb of some type of solid storage
decent onboard audio and video (playback simple movies and music)
9" screen that is a rotatable touchscreen (I really need this for chinese character writing and I'm sure someone else could us it for on the go designs)
wireless n, bluetooth, 3g, gps
and a 6 cell 5hr battery

This should be doable under the 600-650 usd mark

but maybe I'm crazy
   

Ideal combination: docking laptop + netbook?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to make an argument that the ideal combination for most of the young net-using population would be a combination of a docking laptop and a netbook.

Consider it on a "piece of equipment" basis. Having a desktop, a power notebook, a light notebook, and a (light) netbook respectively each gives you specific capabilities and have costs attached to them. Owning one of each would be ideal, but they cost.

I'd firstly discount the power notebook as a viable mass-market proposition. For the purpose of at-home use, power can be had at twice the amount for half the price if getting a desktop instead. For the purpose of distance use, portability and battery life is both horrible. Thus, for the "cost saving" of two in one, you really get a very poor version of both. The only situation this looks viable is someone who moves around a lot and with no fixed address but still wants power, i.e. working from hotel rooms and somesuch. This is not a large portion of the population.

Light notebooks and netbooks simply can't give the power of a desktop, so for a number of very popular and often desired purposes (screen resolution, processor speed, graphics card), desktops have capabilities that can't be duplicated. If you want portability as well, a light netbook is an additional option. Or... is it possible to top that?

I would think it can be topped - if you combine a desktop docking station (containing additional storage space and a high-powered graphics card) with a laptop with a solid-state disk, large screen and a powerful processor with excellent power management ability. That should let you get battery power very high. The total cost of this would be in the range of an expensive desktop. For the best multimedia watching, you could connect it to a TV. You could also get a netbook in addition, although this isn't strictly neccessary.

Thus the initial purchase, although somewhat expensive, would give you power and portability in one, making for some a netbook superfluous, until you can afford one.

Re:Ideal combination: docking laptop + netbook?

[Jorophose]

I think this is a job for eSATA and ePCI-E.

(yeah that's right. since inception PCIE could run externally)

So you get your docking station. With a massive monitor of your choice, a whole bunch of USB ports (powered off the wall?), DVI-I (so you get both VGA and DVI-D/HDMI), maybe component (but a direct netbook-to-breakout-cable would be best). Give it a hard drive enclosure with optical drive slots (2+ of each), and these connect with eSATA right into the motherboard (like desktops do it, no silly cards). External PCI-E, so you can link up to a video card in an external enclosure, hooked up to the wall (but the docking station powers everything, not 18 wall warts, at least I hope...).

I don't think that's impossible. It just requires a fair amount of design work, to get everything to plug together. Then the only problem is the CPU. If you want PCIE graphics you want a fast CPU. And if you're running with a gaming card it's likely you want games. So you'd be stuck with a x86 CPU.

Unless you want to bribe Sun into getting you an ultra-low-power 3-core UltraSPARC package (2 being SPARCs) with a x86 "translation" core? (ie that core does what Transmeta tried doing, translates to SPARC so the other CPUs do the real work)

a return of the laptops of yesteryear

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want a very small device because I feel that they are prone to getting broken, tedious to use, and generally leave that much less room for a decent battery. What I would like is a laptop with modern tech and the smaller form factor that was common a decade ago, rather than the monstrosities with 15" and 17" screens that are common now.

Consider the Gateway Solo 2200 (a once high-end laptop). 12" 4:3 256K-color quick-response active matrix display. Fanless Pentium MMX CPU. And it could hold a battery and a floppy drive, a battery and a optical drive, or two batteries. With two new batteries it will run for 8 hours. It would be perfect with a current-gen low-power CPU and suitable mobile GPU. Although the case could stand to be a bit thinner and more rigid also.

battery life and keyboard

[chrisboredwithlogins]

At least 5+hrs battery life ideally 8hrs-12hrs

and a *decent* keyboard

best thing i bought for my eeepc was an extended battery - makes it far more useful.

I'm seriously thinking of modding the case to fit a decent compact keyboard...

and lets not forget weight and size, cpu and memory are no so critical with the efficiency of Linux

Kind of like a "Desk"...

[Anonymous Coward]

from Ender's Game. Thin, large screen, portable, long battery life, highly cloud oriented, etc. That's what I've always pictured.

Software/hardware integration - yes!

[jopsen]

I agree software/hardware integration is needed... A wild suggestion from me would be to install linux... Not give the users root access and having the manufacturer administrate that machines remotely using SSH...

Used X40 prices

[rekrutacja]

On ebay you can buy one ig good shape for 300-400USD. Even brand new x60, which is much more modern, is 1100USD on eBay. I bought my x60 in Japan, in regular computer store, brand new with warranty, for ca. 850USD. How you figured 2000USD pricetag?

Ultimate Netbook

[Smartcowboy]

Netbook don't need to be powerful. It's mostly about PORTABILITY and PRICE.

-Screen: 640x480 monochrome (no backlite that screw battery). That's more than enough to look at what your doing.

-Processor: Low power ARM. No need for x86.

-Sound: No internal speaker. A headphone plug is all it needs to play a few mp3.

-Storage: No internal storage. Useless. What is needed is two sdcard readers. The first one for the root filesystem and the second one for user data.

-Connections: 802.11 is a must in any netbook nowaday. 2 USB to add periphericals. Headphone. That's all.

-Operating systems: Linux, Linux, Linux.

-Battery life: You can add a bit of weight to add to battery life. I say it need at least 12 hours of battery life but the best would be 30h+ (maybe with 802.11 disabled).

-Every pieces of hardware should be fully documented for the hobbyists who want to play with the thing.

This thing would be powerful enough for:

- instant messenging
- a little bit of browsing
- mail
- word processing
- agenda
- minesweeper, commander keen, gameboy-style game.
- ect.

It should have "Don't Panic" printed on the case

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously

Re:Cheap. What's the point?

[nametaken]

Amen on the desktop effects... touch display... slick but utilitarian interface.

My ideal netbook

[johnkzin]

1) No more than 8" wide, but no more narrow than 6" or 7". I want it to be mostly usable for thumb typing, I want it to fit in my Maxpedition Colossus bag, but I also want it to be big enough to mostly touch type on.

2) Twist/Convertible Tablet screen. And a touch screen, obviously. Bonus if it's multi-touch capable (but not strictly required). The screen should have as little bezzel as possible.

3) Built in Wifi and Bluetooth, not on an SDIO card. Bluetooth should include HID, BIP, DUN, and PAN support. The wifi interface should support both acting as a client and as an access point.

4) PCI-Express internal module space, with antenna hookups so that you can put in an EVDO or HSPA module.

5) One full sized external SD card slot, and one external CF card slot.

6) A modest amount of internal Flash for the basic OS. Say, options for 1-8GB.

7) A 1.8" drive bay for adding your own storage option (with customization options that include SSDs, but the base model can be bought with this bay empty).

8) Options for 1GB, 2GB, and 4GB of RAM.

9) I don't care (one way nor the other) about a chat camera, but it'd be _nice_ if it had a photo camera.

10) 2 USB host ports, that support OTG (they can be full sized, mini, or micro ports though).

11) 1 Micro-DVI port, with DVI-I (ie. support for both digital and analog connections, so that you can use it to connect to analog TVs, VGA monitors, DVI monitors, and HDMI monitors/TVs).

12) Internal resolution can be as small as 800x480, but 1024x600 might be nice. External resolution should support 640x480, 800x480, 1024x600, 1024x768, 1280x1024, and whatever wide-screen resolution goes with ?x1024 (1600x1024?).

13) For OS, I'd want one, or more, of the following, but they must be vendor supported in order for me to consider them to be viable options:

- Ubuntu Mobile
- Android
- Maemo
- Mac OS X

(I think that, right now, ideally it'd have Ubuntu Mobile, with Android and OpenPandora extensions, so that you could run OpenPandora games and Android apps on it)

14) I'm agnostic about CPU architecture. As long as it's fast enough to be usable, and the battery options give me somewhere around 6 hours of reliable battery life (not estimated).

15) A nice bonus: if the PCI-Express module options included a quad-band GSM/ quad-band UMTS card that could be used for simultaneous voice, SMS/MMS, and data access. It would also be very nice if the software supported running a light SIP server to manage the voice interface, and a light jabber server to manage the SMS/MMS interface.

That's my ideal right now. It'd probably look somewhat like a Fujitsu Lifebook U810. Though, to slightly veer off topic, I think I'd rather have something in the form factor of the Samsung Q1 Ultra over a netbook. Give me a Q1 Ultra that otherwise matches the above feature set (#'s 3-13, and #15), maybe a slight boost in speed over the 1.3GHz Q1 Ultra Premium, and I'd be quite happy.

That'd all get rather expensive compared to the mainstream netbook market I bet though. Right now, I'm sure I'd be happy with a Dell mini that just added an HSPA modem, and maybe a twist/convertible touch screen (and, in that case, probably changed to ubuntu-mid over ubuntu).

I'm actually somewhat conflicted lately between getting the more expensive but preferable format Samsung Q1 Ultra vs a cheap Dell mini. The Dell has vendor supported ubuntu, and clearly a much better price point, but I think it might be slightly too wide for comfortable thumb typing...

Weight.

[richardjjjjj]

I'm fascinated how few people have commented on the weight of the netbook in this stream. There's a lot about size, battery life, and RAM, but I lug my EEEPC everywhere, and although it weighs just over a kilogram, I still wish it were lighter and thinner. A 500g (17oz) netbook woluld be fantastic...

Bring back the...

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple Newton 2100. The 2100 had great handwriting recognition (hell, it could read my chickenscratch), was fast, had a rotatable screen, worked as a great flashlight, was easy to read ebooks on, had recording built in, text-to-speech, insanely great battery life, and even had ethernet. If someone could bring that thing back, and add in wifi I'd buy one in about .1 of a heartbeat...

It's the only thing I've every owned (hell, still have it) that just WORKED. It got me through B-school, took my notes on it with the optional keyboard, and then drew the diagrams right on the screen when they came up. Could print copies for my team by aiming it at the IR port on the HP printers...

Everything was nicely searchable. I added some extra stationary forms for other interests I had - like Scanner frequencies that I ran across, or tracking when I changed the batteries on our smoke detectors/mom's/grandma's, exercise (yep, I do get some exposure to the daystar), and so on...

I was so pissed at Jobs for killing it - I have yet to buy another Mac since - and I was a Mac guy too...

Nothing, I repeat NOTHING holds a candle to the Newton 2100... everything else is a pale imitation.

I want...

[whitespiral]

Please, an AM tuner for the redneck in me. Seriously. It can enable me to listen to local sport events.

Microsoft controls netbook capability

[waferbuster]

It took me a while to find this article, which covers the agreements/demands that Microsoft placed on Netbook manufacturers who want to use XP. It explains why all of the netbooks with Atom processors are using the low-resolution screens.
Granted, some of the requirements have been reduced (namely, the maximum hard-drive capacity), but in general the manufacturers are toeing the Redmond line.

Re:Microsoft controls netbook capability

[waferbuster]

Oh yeah, one other thing:
Maybe now we understand why ASUS is so adamant about the N10 is *not a netbook*. They didn't want to get in licensing trouble with Microsoft.
Also, with the XP licensing restrictions, don't expect to see dual-core Atom chips in netbooks anytime soon. Unless Microsoft get's pressured enough to relax their confidential agreements/requirements with the netbook manufacturers.
In case you can't tell, I'm feeling pretty down on Microsoft dictating the hardware capabilities of the netbook I can purchase. They're an OS manufacturer, and not the only choice in town!

Re:Microsoft controls netbook capability

[Fantastic Lad]

Ugh. It never fails. Just when I begin to soften my attitude toward Microsoft, something comes along to remind me why I held that attitude in the first place.

-FL

Eye of the beholder.

[shmlco]

Actually, your comment points out that the "ultimate" notebook is different for everyone.

For me, an Air with 4GB and at least a 500GB HD would be the ultimate in light weight and portability, while not being so small that it's sacrificing usability. The Air has pretty much the smallest screen/keyboard I'd consider using for an extended period of time. And other than disk space, I've yet to miss any of the "missing features" most other notebooks cart around simply because it's traditional to have a VGA/serial/parallel/SCSI/whatever port.

At any rate, for someone else, a 17" Alienware "monster" notebook might be just the ticket. The "ultimate" portable desktop replacement and game machine.

You, OTO... ah, foot, might focus solely on price and size to the point that a $200 ultra-portable that fits in a coat pocket is the "ultimate" machine.

Point is that you may value price, I may value design and usability, and someone else might place more value on power or some other feature. The "ultimate" notebook doesn't exist.

Re:Eye of the beholder.

[TheRequiem13]

You missed the very important distinction of netbook from notebook. Netbook narrows us down the the ultra-portable, ultra-cheap sub-notebooks. "Monster" laptops aren't even part of this discussion.

Re:Eye of the beholder.

[shmlco]

So I did. I still don't see there they have to be both ultra-portable AND ultra-cheap. What's wrong with a high-end or luxury netbook? Why does everything have to be cheap plastic?

VIA Nano-based

[Jorophose]

- VIA Nano 1.2GHz or 1.3GHz or better
- 8GB SSD with option for 120GB HDD or bigger
- 1GB of RAM or 2GB+
- VX800u (ULV) chipset
- 8.9" screen (HP 2133) or even 10" screen (eee 1000)
- Bluetooth standard
- Wireless G/N
- ExpressCard
- Program for a free USB (or expresscard) 3G/GSM (by the way, what's the difference?) modem when you get a mobile internet plan.
- Starts at 349$ if it's the 2133 with a 8.9" screen and the first stuff, 399$ for 10" model. Prices should climb fairly enough.
- If it's the HP 2133, an option for a non-glossy screen please.

Oh, and SDHC card reader with unionfs/aufs built-in, and the default distro should be Zenwalk, Xubuntu, Foresight, or Debian, with a specialised interface (think Ubuntu Mobile) by default and an easily accessed "advanced" interface. An option for a touchscreen would be cool. So would be a 1280x768 LED-backed screen; but likely it would be 1280x768 CCFL or 1024x600 LED (again, what's better here?)

...And A Plug-In AC Jack That Lasts

[LowlyWorm]

Why, why, why, can't we do that?

Real-size keyboard

[file-exists-p]

I really don't get why nobody cares about the keyboard size. Young people do not type anymore these days ?!

Need a 1999 Notebook specs shrunk to a handy size

[jvin248]

Basically, the netbook market is driven by cost and size. Expand either of those two parameters and you end up with a standard notebook.

Can't type with fat fingers then onto a notebook, need a big display then onto a notebook, need a huge amount of disk space ram etc then onto a notebook - and forget a 'cheap netbook'

I currently use either a P2-300Mhz or a P3-500Mhz laptop for travel and client presentations. I run Xubuntu 8.04 on them and use Open Office, Firefox, and Thunderbird. These machines were built in the 1997-1999 time frame. Other than the weight factor these machines perform well for this task. Any netbook with these specs will work well too (provided it's Linux with a lightweight window manager).

The netbook market is really the traveler that has a desktop at home/office and just needs the portability. And since you're traveling you'll need great battery life.

Apple's "Air" looks great for thin, but it's still not small. ASUS hit the form factor perfectly and this is where others will (and are) heading toward. Think how handy it is to carry around a paperback book; remember those?... : )

The market is really looking for the $100-$200 netbook, then sitting at a $400-$500 portable laptop (with more features like DVD drive to watch movies etc), and then the $1000 "Branded" or "Desktop replacement" larger form factor with lots of ram, big HDD, etc. Companies that blur the lines across these form factors and pricing will only hurt themselves..."why do I want a $400 netbook when I can get this "brandX" for the same price and it's got a DVD drive?" Easy clear steps for consumers to see. But make sure you get the low price point - people will buy several for the kids, grandkids, favorite traveler, and so on (hint... it's about big volume in those small sizes)

Cheap & Small

[jvin248]

Really like $100-$200 (or what's the point, people will upgrade to standard laptop at $300-$400)

And about the same specs as a 1999 P3-500Mhz laptop (that can run Xubuntu 8.04 with Open Office, Firefox, and Thunderbird fine).

Size of a paperback

And battery for several hours

And get the plant capacity ready to sell a lot of them !

Quality, not shoddy cheapness.

[sethstorm]

Such quality can be had from IBM/Lenovo's older X series Thinkpads. They last longer than the cheaply built machines out there, and don't have the speed/capacity limitations.

Not cheap

[MsGeek]

Apple netbook would own. I'd like to see something that was almost the resurrection of the Newton eMate, but with a more modern Mac OS X derivative OS, 802.11n, and an option for Mobile Phone Company-provided bandwidth. However...and this is a big HOWEVER...this Apple netbook would be more expensive than any of the other netbooks. It just comes with the territory of machines with better "fit and finish" than the average computer.

I would say such a machine would be sort of like the offspring of an iPhone and a MacBook. Considerably less powerful than the MacBook, but with more versatility -- and no tie-ins to a single mobile phone company -- than an iPhone.

Re:Not cheap

[LWATCDR]

I could see Apple selling it for around the same $400-$500 that Most netbooks seem to be at how. Apple might have a way to make it cheaper. ITunes as a way to buy software.
I have never understood why Apple has not extended ITunes to software for the Mac.
It is a great marketing system for both the software producers and Apple.

silly

[BradMajors]

It is silly to propose that there is one ultimate notebook for everyone. The problem with current notebooks is manufacturers are lacking in imagination and there is insufficient diversity in notebook designs.

Already got one. . .

[Fantastic Lad]

The eee1000H is now around $450, and it's my new best friend. The nearly-full keyboard might as well be a full keyboard. The 10" screen is big enough to use with Photoshop in surprising comfort. Solid battery time. Great user community. --And all the other good things you've heard already from people. It's all true.

The only thing some people find is that it's a tad on the heavy side. For me, though, I actually like this. If a device is too light, I find it feels too much like a cheap toy. I use old Nortel phones which weigh a ton so they don't rattle around like Christmas tree ornaments. When I put something on a table, I like it to stay put. But it's certainly not too heavy to grab and carry with ease. --I find I treat the eee1000H the same way I might treat a smallish school text or a biggish fiction hardcover. It goes where I go, and that's the most significant and noticeable difference between it and my old lappy; the laptop is like re-deployable furniture, whereas the eee is actually immediately useful all the time no matter where I am around the house/office. I'm not actually sure what I'd do to improve it.

The last time I bought something I was this satisfied with, (to the point of smugness), was the Mini-Leatherman. --Not those silly new ones they call the 'squirt', but the original from 20 years ago. I still use that thing all the time, and it's still in excellent shape because it was built to last forever. --Of course, even the eee1000H isn't as cool as my fold-up pliers, nor will it last for anywhere nearly as long. But to be fair, proof man's divinity lies in the Mini-Leatherman, so the bar is pretty much impossibly high. The eee1000H comes fairly close, though.

-FL

What I think a netbook should be like

[MaDMaik]

A netbook in my opinion should have the following specs:

* the size of an EeePC 9x - if it's any bigger I would rather get a regular notebook.
* 9'' Display with good brightness - if it's highly portable I want to use it everywhere, including outside on a sunny day.
* a usuable keyboard, like the Dell one has - I wouldn't work with it a whole day but for longer text inputs it should be comfy enough.
* at least 12GB, perhaps even 20GB SSD - SSD are just more robust. I don't need tons of storage on a netbook.
* wireless lan and kind of mobile phone modem - hey, this is for mobility, isn't it?
* webcam of usable quality - I don't want to record a movie but for vid-phone usage it should be sufficient for most enviroments.
* should be able to run Linux without losing any features - I don't mind if the netbook is offered with Windows, too but I prefer the penguin.
* don't forget at VGA and Sound out
* 4 hours on battery should be minimum

I wouldn't use the netbook for photo or videoediting nor for gaming but for email and www, some text editing or calculations, perhaps as a presentation machine when connected to a beamer. Might also be nice as a playlist controller for a party.

rgds,
      MaDMaik

Exactly: Small Laptop vs Large PDA

[cyclomedia]

I want one of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Revo with wifi*.

All I've been waiting for these past years is a PDA with an f-ing KEYBOARD, had no trouble using the word processor or spreadhseet on the revo, found the keys on it perfectly usable. At the mo my "portable internet" experience is at approx 160*200 px on my Sony Erricson phone with predictive text input. Why the massive gulf in devices from there to 12" laptop?

*USB would be nice, but color optional.

Re:Exactly: Small Laptop vs Large PDA

[computechnica]

The Palm Treo are good for short word files and awesome for texting. They are available with a Palm or Mobile Window$ OS. Plus I can use it as a bluetooth-3G modem for my Dell Mini 9. $90 for a refurb from Cingular.

Modular

[F34nor]

1. I want a removable battery sized graphics card that has a PCI-E x16 slot at the back. Hell maybe two in the front or side of the laptop. I would like an ultra-low power graphics card on the motherboard as well. So when I am done playing Crysis at 1600x1200 I can pull the cards, set them in their velvet lined mahogany box and stick in two battery packs.

2. I want 2 CPU's. One quad-core for when its plugged in and one ultralow voltage so when I unplug my baby goes ultra miser. What does an atom retail for? Another $80 is not going to annoy me if I just bought two 9800gtx cards. Basically if I am moving with my laptop it needs to be a web browser and MS Office and that's it for me. Hell my Nokia e71 can do both those jobs and its the size of an ipod and lasts for 4 days without a recharge.

3. I want flexible e-paper multi-touch screen that deforms on command to create a keyboard on the bottom of the laptop or a flat textured wacom stlye tablet. Kind of a cross between the Art Lebedev keyboard and those useless laser projection keyboards but the the added benefit of tactile feedback. This ones is obviously a pipe dream but what the hell you asked what I want.

4. I want the the center hinge to allow me to have the e-paper out as a tablet or the LCD. Even if both sides are clunky thick as long as they are hollow and light with the graphics card and maybe even the magnetic hard drive out of the case.

5. Up top I want a nice LED lit 1600x1200 17" LCD on top with a transflective backing.

6. I want the whole back panel behind the screen to be a fractal antenna that is massive and broadband.

6. I want either: Four CF slots with a hardware raid, e.g. 4 x 32gb @ ~$70 each: 128gb SSD with replaceable memory for $280.00, or a thinner solution of 8 SD slots, e.g. 8gb @ ~$8 each: 64gb SSD with replaceable memory for $64.00. Imagine a redundant array of inexpensive disks!

I Agree

[cyclomedia]

I longed for a wifi'd-up Revo in a higher up thread but will repeat myself somewhat here to bolsten your post. All i want is a PDA with wifi and a half decent keyboard, and the Psion Revo clamshell-slide-out action is *still* a gorgeous execution of it. My Revo has 8MB RAM and 8MB ROM and 16 shades of grey, why does my only upgrade path involve gigs of ram and gigs of ssd, a 10" screen and 10 mins of battery life?

Ok, now I want to design a laptop :)

[marcosdumay]

If I just had the money to produce it...

1. Make more things modular. What about replacing batteries (yes, plural) for disk modules too, or wi-fy?

2. Use 1 quad-core CPU, turn 3 cores down when you are unplugged. Bonus point for an assyncrhonous quad-core CPU, that lets you turn the voltage down. What about turning some RAM down too? It will need a custom OS anyway.

3. Ok, pipe dream. But the keyboard can be composed of several mountable modules, so you can have a big one, while keeping the laptop small.

4. E-paper back would be very nice.

5. Yeah, that would be nice, or a A5 form for a more portable notebook (two different models).

6. That's interesting.

6 (again). That is very interesting :)

Re:Ok, now I want to design a laptop :)

[F34nor]

Oh yeah modular replaceable HDs so when it is on the desk its got a couple 500gb's I like the idea of HD sized batteries, that way when everything is out you could just have a slimmer back panel. Hell you might even be able to run them off the same plug as a sata. Big bay: Graphics, batteries, DVD, CD, BD, & other big stuff. Small bay HD, battery, etc. Really small, PCMCIA, PCI express etc.

It should be a portable LISP machine

[agentultra]

With some good connectivity and matte screen.

  1 inch thick and 2.5 lbs.

Full-size keyboard (or at least no less that 90% full size).

carbon-fibre or bamboo frame would be nice. something that comes with a materials reclamation plan for once.

Acer 901 almost there

[Anonymous Coward]

take an acer 901 and in no particular order:

- make it prettier
- add on board 3G
- support all types of flash memory card
- manual shutter close over the camera
- give it a touch screen
- make it more shock proof
- put a solar panel on the other side of the monitor to charge the battery

We're already there.

[StarKruzr]

So I don't know what you're talking about.

The Acer Aspire One is more powerful than a 3 year old laptop for the same price, has usable IO and is very durable.

One thing.

[pontifier]

waterproof