Canadian NDP Leader Praises P2P Communities

newtley writes "The New Democrats' Jack Layton has become the first leader of a major Canadian political party to acknowledge the importance of the Internet during a federal election. He's using YouTube to carry his message specifically to the online community, launching it on P2Pnet. 'We don't want to see hidden fees and gouging and service slow-downs all in the interests of promoting the objectives of certain large corporations,' Layton says." Other party members have also spoken out against increased internet regulation. We've been following the Canadian net neutrality debate for quite some time.

Comments

Wrong Tag

[nurb432]

Need to include ' its a trap'..

Re:Wrong Tag

[canuck57]

It is a trap and not a joke. The NDP have never left less government debt in their terms of office. Provinces like Saskatchewan have 11 billion dollars in debt. While that many not sound like much, they have less than 1 million people to support it. They love credit spending like no other.

Most experienced Canadians know NDP as socialists. Nationalization is a key plug of theirs.

Laytoon would say anything to get elected be he mean it or not. World readers need to know it is routine that Canadian candidates lie often.

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[pipatron]

That's about $10000 per person, much less than the U.S.

Traditionally, democrats/left-ish governments spend less while taking in more, thus reducing the debts, while right-wing capitalist governments tend to spend more. (what they don't spend on health care they spend on prisons and "national security")

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[Erioll]

Except of course for the Alberta Progressive Conservative party, which reduced taxes, eliminated the deficit AND the provincial debt (it is now completely gone).

What the USA calls "right-wing" may not act like it at all, but in Canada generally fiscal conservatism means such, because we have an actual example of such that happened, not just theory like down south.

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[Anonymous Coward]

The NDP have never left less government debt in their terms of office.

Nationalization is a key plug of theirs.

Both of these statements are bald-faced lies.

Re:Wrong Tag

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm glad you remember the last time NDP was in office. NDP is the 'union party', or the socialist party, and many of the people I talk to that are voting NDP are union members (who have everything to gain) or students too young to recall the horrible effect the NDP had on our country.

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[PIBM]

They might have gotten rid of the monetary debt, but by how much did they damage their environment ? What would have happened to the debt if they would not have had Harper get rid of kyoto ?

Exploiting their petroleum sand like this, with almost no regulations, got them tons of money. Any other responsible governement should not have allowed that to go through.

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[IgnoramusMaximus]

Oh yea, the Alberta Conservatives were, in their great, millions of years spanning foresight, entirely responsible for putting all that oil in all that sand in Alberta and then for driving global oil prices through the roof only so that they can rake in billions in royalties ... no?

But then again this is, and has always been, on par for the so-called "Conservatives" world-wide: take with great fanfare all credit for things you had absolutely nothing to do with, while at the same time trying to project blame for everything you've fucked up onto others.

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[abigor]

Absolutely true. I would also offer up the example of the BC NDP party, and the unbelievably poor state in which they left this province. The NDP are fundamentally corrupt because of their close ties to the trade unions.

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[Have Brain Will Rent]

$11 Billion divided among 1 Million people is more like $11,000 per person.

The example he is using is for the debt created in one province by a provincial political party. The equivalent of the debt of a state in the U.S. - is it really common in the U.S. to see state debt at $11,000/person?

The left of center governments in Canada typically create huge debt while the right of center governments create smaller debt. The previous left of center federal government (known as the "Liberals") ran up a huge debt - they after heavy pressure from international financial entities and from the Canadian people they paid alot of it off. Not by fiscal discipline but rather by raising taxes and off-loading costs to provincial governments - not by cutting program spending. The current federal government (known as the "Conservatives") actually cut spending, lowered taxes to people and business and paid off a significant portion of the national debt.

It's been a similar story at the provincial level.

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[Have Brain Will Rent]

They would be the party that held bingo games purportedly for charity but the money ended up paying for NDP expenses. And they had the Premier who was quoted as saying "It's like we're shovelling money off the back of a truck!"

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[Have Brain Will Rent]

If the first was a lie then you could have easily disproven it by giving an example of an NDP government that left office with less government debt than when they took office. As to the second I agree that government ownership is frequently a plank of the NDP platform - they've downplayed it for a long time now because they realize how unpopular it was.

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[gmack]

Try BC then. The BC Liberal party (made up entirely of former social credit conservatives) inherited a province from the NDP that was doing poorly economically yet managed to both put the economy back on track and balance the budget.

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[Wacky_Wookie]

Poor state?! Look what the Liberals ended up doing: A Carbon Tax! I laugh at all the conservatives who voted for 'em. They same ones who are wining about the ferry prices after the Libs went and Privatized it(!?). Yes the BC-NDP were a little too close to the unions, but the unions are dying off now. What we really need is an NDP-LIB merger. Or, even better a new party positioned between the two on the electoral spectrum. Fuck Harper.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Amen! They ran here in BC on a platform of socialism and equality for all and ruined our economy in 4 years. Liberals fixed it in 2.

Duane Nickull

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[Anonymous Coward]

The NDP aren't just close to the unions, the unions have a say in everything the party does. 25% of the seats at NDP conventions belong to unions (they've changed the forumla in BC, but I think it's still this way for the federal wing). Many NDP candidates are labour movement/union bureaucrats. And to top it off, almost all unions, at least in BC, donate to the NDP from their members' union dues no matter what party the members actually support. The NDP is not a progressive party because they will always bend to the will of the unions, whose will is not always conducive to the greater good.

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[Anonymous Coward]

that is completely WRONG. The saks NDP had the longest running balanced budget streak in Canadian history, over 10 years. And the current debt for Sask is Around 5 billion, considerably less then your made up number but unlike you I don't ask people to take my word for it (check the wikipedia). OH and by the way the NDP are the ones who came up with the whole health care for everyone. Harper is the one who is saying anything to get back in and he blew the surplus he was left on nothing. I suggest you do your homework before opening your mouth and pew more lies

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[pureevilmatt]

Lies. The previous Liberal government consistently operated under the largest budget surpluses in Canadaian history. It started in 1998. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/09/28/record-budget-surplus-in-_n_66271.html It is only in the last few years that the Conservative government has begun pissing that surplus away.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Try BC then. The BC Liberal party (made up entirely of former social credit conservatives) inherited a province from the NDP that was doing poorly economically yet managed to both put the economy back on track and balance the budget.

Oh yes, by cutting back, privatising and illegally (according to the WLO) tearing up the contracts of healthcare workers, teachers and (guilty!) college lecturers.

Meanwhile, we have spent millions - with far more to come - on a totally pointless party for the world's elite skiers, iceskaters et. al. called the Winter Olympics.

And our finance minister is so shrewd that she keeps making errors estimating the surplus - errors in the billions of dollars.

Roll on May next year and our chance to get rid of these neocon bastards.

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[Anonymous Coward]

It's a lot easier to do that when you can extract money out of the ground. Give us a break. Alberta would be worse off than

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[Viceroy Potatohead]

The NDP have never left less government debt in their terms of office.

Of course, Gary Doer in Manitoba has had a balanced budget every year for the last decade, as well as creating a rainy-day fund of hundreds of millions, but don't let that stop you from making black and white statements.

Laytoon[sic] would say anything to get elected [whether] he mean[t] it or not. World readers need to know it is routine that Canadian candidates lie often.

AFAICT, that's par for the course in Canada, the US, and the UK, and I suspect pretty much every other democracy. The Liberals did fairly well during the election a few years ago in part due to Sheila Copps promising to do away with the GST, and we all know how well that turned out. The Conservatives have a similar history, such as this, or these. Federally speaking, we have a lot more reason to distrust Conservative or Liberal election promises, since they have both actually formed the government and then broken those promises, while the NDP have never been in that position. That's not to say that they wouldn't, but it seems strange you'd single out Layton, since his party is the only one of the three that have never actually done what you suggest he would do.

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[music_man_420]

You have to admit that Alberta is a bit of a special case. A drunken monkey could run a surplus with their natural resources in todays economic climate.

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[MarkRose]

It's not polite to refer to King Ralph as a monkey, even if drunk.

Re:Wrong Tag

[Sibko]

Except of course for the Alberta Progressive Conservative party, which reduced taxes, eliminated the deficit AND the provincial debt (it is now completely gone).

I know a few people who live in Alberta, from what they tell me, this wasn't some Conservative 'just as planned...' scheme. [How could the have predicted the jump in oil prices?] This was pure blind luck. Alberta was spending too much money a while back, and needed some major cutbacks to be made so that the province wasn't digging itself into a hole. As the years went on after these cutbacks, the increasing price in oil kick started the Albertan economy into high-gear.

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[Brickwall]

Please - the Conservatives are not "pissing" the surplus away; they are paying down debt - over 37 billion. If you assume a 5% interest rate (which is the average rate the government pays), that saves $1.85 billion in interest, which the Tories have said would all be returned to taxpayers via tax cuts. This is in tremendous contrast to the US, where the national debt recently hit $10 trillion. US GDP is about $13 trillion. In contrast, federal government debt in Canada is only $450 billion, or about 1/3 of our nearly 1.5 trillion GDP. That's why I agree with Harper that Canada isn't like the US, and that we are not in bad shape. Layton and Dion are scaremongers who ignore the facts, or more likely, don't understand the issue.

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[ShieldW0lf]

Alberta is a fucked up case. It's another Sydney, Nova Scotia in the making. We're getting fucked.

We could have all those young people working building renewable energy structures, like hydro projects and tidal power generation. Instead, they're selling out our future to keep the American demand for oil slaked. They're dumping money into a highly overinflated housing market, going into ridiculous levels of debt, and long before they're ready to retire, the place will be a dead town, with no industry to speak of, no demand for those houses that were built, and a bunch of industrial pollution.

Alberta is a gigantic mistake in the making, and 99% of those who think they're doing so well out there are going to be left in the lurch.

Aside from all of that, the oil is going straight into the US war machine.

Personally, I hope they get blown up. The whole thing is an exercise in exploitation.

Re:Wrong Tag

[Anonymous Coward]

The NDP have never left less government debt in their terms of office.

Of course, Gary Doer in Manitoba has had a balanced budget every year for the last decade, as well as creating a rainy-day fund of hundreds of millions, but don't let that stop you from making black and white statements.

More NDP dreaming. You are going into the hole and like most NDPers can't come to realise it. NDP in Manitoba are more in the hole than ever with NDP debt.

Canadian Taxpayers gloss it over, but at the debt per taxpayer the Manitoba government couldn't borrow any more and the NDP were more or less forced into a balanced budget. But the debt itself was at record highs.

A PC Party blog on it. They talk specifically about the period NDP are mortgaging the province. Balanced budget does not mean less debt. Just means you mouth is 1mm above the water line.

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[music_man_420]

Heh. Actually I wasn't referring to Mr Klein specifically, although now that you mention it my use of drunken turns out to be more apt than I had anticipated.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Hahahahaha... I almost snorted my drink through my nose your post was so funny. The last right of center federal government was booted from power (wiped out to 2 seats of ~308) with a yearly deficit of 42 billion dollars. The last provincial right of center government we had was booted from office with... yearly deficits around 5 billion dollars (which typical of the conservatives, they tried to hide). Commonly, the left of center governments in Canada (and U.S for that matter), usually leave power having generated surpluses and with the economy strong. The right of center governments usually leave power in disgrace with massive deficits and debt left behind (like say Reagan, Bush 1, Bush 2, Harris (Ontario), Mulroney (Canada). Those are the facts... anything else is just right-wing spin doctoring.

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[Have Brain Will Rent]

Oh please. The liberals ran up huge deficits and only started addressing the issue when public sentiment forced it. Yes - they did indeed then start running huge surpluses - not hard to do when you overestimate costs, overtax the populace to cover the predicted costs and then declare a surplus when the costs don't materialize. A surplus means people paid too much tax.

To quote the article you reference: Canada posted a record budget surplus of C$13.8bn last year, allowing Ottawa to reduce its debt ratio to the lowest level in 25 years and paving the way for a fresh round of personal tax cuts. The announcement on Thursday by Stephen Harper, prime minister, is likely to fuel speculation that his minority Conservative government is preparing for a general election either this year or early in 2008.

You claim that The previous Liberal government consistently operated under the largest budget surpluses but the article also says: The debt-to-GDP ratio reached a peak of 74.8 per cent in 1996.

And who was in power in 1996? and 1995 and 1994 and 1993??? Mmmm, that would be the Liberals who ran the debt to GDP ratio up to the worst rate in Canadian history. So I'd be careful about tossing around the word "lies" if I were you.

The Liberals are also the same party that signed the Kyoto accord and then over the next decade or so let greenhouse gas emissions rise by - what was it? 35%? And then after getting booted from power had the unmitigated gall to hypocritically blame the government replacing them for not bringing about reductions in their first two years in office.

Re:Wrong Tag

[canuck57]

Except of course for the Alberta Progressive Conservative party, which reduced taxes, eliminated the deficit AND the provincial debt (it is now completely gone).

All Alberta did was elect two successive by the people representatives as our leaders. Yes, I live in Alberta. Neither Klein nor successor Stelmach are professional politicians, both came from the working class from their successful stints in real careers. That is, they are not in-the-pocket of vested interests behind the scenes. When Klein got in, he spent the first 6 months on a hack and burn of government waste and excess. Civil service people still scream at this government overhaul event as the provincial debt was increasing.

Alberta voters tend to be smarter and avoided the liberal left promise of stars, spending and statist government at our, taxpayers expense. People here know when a candidate promises something they intuitively think, how is it going to be paid for?

While some say it is oil, they are over stating the facts. Klein did this before oil was lucrative and only $20/barrel and the industry was barely hanging on. And in lucrative times, the government piggy banked the increased revenue money which reduces taxes in a sound sustainable way.

It does not take long to turn around a out of control government, just a decent, honest, practical politician with lots of power that isn't doing the job for self ego. Even on Klein's last days, he would sit down with normal people and say hello.

What the USA calls "right-wing" may not act like it at all, but in Canada generally fiscal conservatism means such, because we have an actual example of such that happened, not just theory like down south.

We will see in the next few weeks. Canada's currency took a wild dip as the government is ailing out the banks too. Fiat currency management is on both sides of the border, they are not overlooking the Bank of Canada's propensity to create fiat money.

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[Have Brain Will Rent]

Well your statements are incorrect about the Alberta and British Columbia governments at the very least. They may be wrong about other provincial governments as well - I don't know as I don't have the facts handy but since you are wrong at least twice I'll safely assume I shouldn't trust you to be right in the case of the others.

And while I was no fan of the Mulroney Conservative government it was the Liberals who ran the debt to GDP ratio up to its historical high - years after the Conservatives left power.

And what government was it that ran the Canada Pension Plan like a Ponzi scheme? Why that would be the Liberals. What government kept taxing people with high unemployment insurance premiums long after it had accumulated so much money that it could have been self-supporting in perpetuity if the government hadn't kept raiding the kitty to spend the money on other things? Mmmm that would be the Liberals too.

What party broke its promise to do away with the 7% Goods and Services Sales Tax? That would be the Liberals too.

What party signed the Kyoto accord and then did nothing about it for more than a decade - in fact letting emissions rise something like 35%? That would be the Liberals.

And don't even get started on the Liberal money scandals.

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[Anonymous Coward]

BC is doing quite well now, and it is entirely due to the NDP not being in power here. I lean left politically, but it will be a sad day for BC if the NDP ever get in power again, hopefully voters memories are not so short.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Almost no regulation? Are you kidding? The oil sands are some of the most regulated oil in the world. Yes they emit more CO2 than conventional oil extraction, but that's hardly because of a lack of regulations. And it was the Liberals that signed Kyoto and then totally ignored it, making virtually no impact on the steady increase of carbon emissions. Perhaps you believe a government that signs treaties and then ignores them is preferable to one that doesn't sign such treaties in the first place?

Any other government in the western world would likely have developed the oil sands very similarly to the Alberta government. Development has certainly accelerated greatly since the price of oil sky rocketed, but decades were spent subsidizing Syncrude and Suncor before that and growth was extremely slow. I don't think you really know anything about this subject beyond the headlines of environmentalist blog titles.

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[Anonymous Coward]

It is true the Conservatives didn't create Alberta's resource wealth, and equally true that practically all the blame of BCs economy being driven into the ground in the 90s can be attributed to the NDP. So while evidence doesn't exist to say Alberta's economy wouldn't have happened if not for Conservative government, it is quite possible to point to a provincial economy totally fucked up by Layton's party.

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[Anonymous Coward]

the first provincial government in canada to make a surplus was an ndp government.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, and cut all the education and health care funding. Way to go, Canadian's future down the drain.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Of course they cut back and privatized and broke contracts. Guess what the NDP did in thier last year of power? Spent billions the province didn't have, plugged their ears and yelled 'no no no no no' about the crown corporations they ran into the ground, and signed the government into ridiculous contracts. The NDP poisoned the government's finances in their last year so they could claim the next guys were big meanies for cleaning the mess up.

I didn't actually think those stupidly obvious tricks worked on anyone.

If you think the NDP will be the next government you're delusional. The fact that you would call the Winter Olympics a 'pointless party' or call the BC Liberals 'neocons' shows your so far off the deep end you're scaring abyssal sea life.

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[flyatcheerful]

Point well taken, but I think you need to admit that there is still a complete lack of MEANINGFUL regulation (or enforcement thereof, for that matter). In all honesty, the intensity targets of the present regime are just as bad as the all talk no action policies of the liberals past. Either way, both parties have got it wrong on a federal level and certainly the provincial party of the day/decade(s) never gave a flying fig for the environment.
Your last comment, whilst largely true in North America and vast swathes of the developing world is not universally true. As someone who worked as as an environmental regulator back in my home country, and has traveled almost all of Northern Alberta, I can guarantee you there is no way in hell the sort of environmental rape that goes on around fort Mcmurray would be allowed back home.
Just some food for thought. Thankfully I am still not a Canadian citizen yet, so don't need to choose sides on the present election. Lets hope for another minority government, so some checks and balances continue to be in place, allowing the more outlandish schemes of all the parties to be tempered with a bit of cold hard reality.

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[Tanktalus]

Well, given the history of Alberta's deficits and debt, I'd have to say that, no, we had sober monkeys run us into the ground in the first place. It may have required some drunkenness to get us out.

And Klein did that *before* oil hit $80 a barrel. It required fiscal conservatism, and, oddly enough, not only did Klein run on a platform of erasing the debt, he actually fulfilled all his major promises (and most of his minor promises). Not too many Canadian governments have done that (Conservative or Liberal - the NDP do fulfill their promises, but their promises just cause government meltdowns, so that's not a positive thing here).

As to the primary topic, it's unfortunate that Layton comes out in favour of something. It pretty much guarantees that the general populace will see it as a fringe thing, and ignore it or move to quash it.

Re:Wrong Tag

[Tanktalus]

ooooo... I wanna hear your opinions on the gun registry. :-P

Re:Wrong Tag

[ceoyoyo]

Actually, I think tidal power generation projects in Alberta would definitely be a bigger mistake.

Re:Wrong Tag

[Have Brain Will Rent]

Why is that - are you making bigoted assumptions because I posted some actual factual information about completely unrelated issues? It's a sleazy, underhanded and frankly dishonest tactic and in trying it you do no favour to yourself or to any party you support... quite the contrary in fact.

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[canuck57]

A quick note about US debt and Canadian debt that once accounted for show a very similar amount of debt per capita. In fact, considering provincial debt in Ontario and Quebec as part of a total debt load many Canadians are at least as hit by government debt. Here are the items.

The US accounts for projected shortfalls in Social Security as debt with a an entry on the books for it. Canada does not include this in their debt situation. While Canada does actually have a CPP reserve, it is short. Last I collected money today is paid out to pensioners inside of 3 months, effectively funded out of current contributions by others. Where did it go? I was squandered from Liberal Pierre Elliot Turdeau on.

Next, the US economy has more elasticity in tax collection than Canada and government internal costs are less. For example, your average working Canadian pays close to 50% if not more in total aggregate tax load to all levels of government, which includes all forms of direct and indirect taxation. Americans on the other hand by the same measure are at about 30% or less.

So in reality, if Canada had a 1 trillion deficit added to the 500 billion or so debt, add in the massive provincial debt in most provinces then Canadians are in debt and already taxed us the wazoo. And far more in debt than the American. Hate to break the news to you but Canada is every it a debtor nation like out neighbors to the south!

Compound this with many people getting lower wages in their profession with higher taxes...less consumer elasticity. When employment in Canada hits 6% going down, we think the economy is hot as it gets! When US unemployment goes up to 6% they are deemed in a recession! And Canadians pay more for major ticket items like homes, autos, appliances etc. And generally except for mining, oil and government have less competition for skills.

I am sorry if I offended socialists ears, but socialism clear robs wealth from people and serves no other purpose but to subvert people. I have lived on both side of the border for extend periods of time and many a Canadian has relatively no idea of the differences in the US and Canada. Just what they hear from big mouths like Chretien/Dion/Laytoon...ya..socialist misfit losers. They lie more than any Canadian knows.

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[codemachine]

Growing up, my examples of "right wing" financial dealing involved Brian Mulroney as Prime Minister and Grant Devine as Premier of Saskatchewan.

Both of them left their respective governments deep in debt. It was the Liberals who came in and stopped the debt from ballooning out of control in Canada. And it is the current minority Conservative government that has started running deficits again.

Provincially, Devine left Saskatchewan in a ridiculous pile of debt. The "left wing" NDP party came in and straightened out the finances after he was gone, and a number of people in Devine's party had a criminal record for stealing money from the province.

I do think other provinces are a different story for sure, but trying to say the Conservatives create "small" debt is hilarious considering what Mulroney and Devine did.

Re:Wrong Tag

[Have Brain Will Rent]

Growing up, my examples of "right wing" financial dealing involved Brian Mulroney as Prime Minister and Grant Devine as Premier of Saskatchewan. Both of them left their respective governments deep in debt. It was the Liberals who came in and stopped the debt from ballooning out of control in Canada.

You should have looked to provinces further West where the story was the opposite - left wing governments running up huge debt and right wing governments getting it under control. For example BC where the gross incompetence of the NDP government left it stripped to two seats (IIRC) when it finally ran for re-election. And the only province in the country that doesn't have a sales tax is run by a right wing government.

it is the current minority Conservative government that has started running deficits again

Mmmm, no they haven't run a deficit since gaining office. They did reduce personal and business taxes, instituted a monthly childcare grant to families, and reduced the GST from 7% to 5% though.

And while the Liberals did run up a huge debt/deficit that they later under control it was not by reducing spending but by raising taxes and offloading expenses on the provinces. Of course it was also the Liberals who brought the debt to GDP ratio to its highest level in history. It was also the Liberals of the 70's and 80's who bankrupted the Canada Pension Plan by loaning the pension funds to the provinces and never requiring repayment which is why it now requires approximately 10% of wages be skimmed from employees and employers just to keep the plan afloat.

Re:Wrong Tag

[Tanktalus]

Why? Because it's entirely relevant, yet controversial at the same time. It was interesting that it was left out. Either you agree with the idea or not, but either way it was $1B unwisely spent by the Liberals.

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[Anonymous Coward]

*provincial* politics is NOT *federal* politics.

Let's see, Mulroney run up the debt. by 500 billion! Is that conservative? Please... Took a *liberal* to be *conservative*!

Seems to be similar to the US. George W. politics doubled US's national debt - up 5,000 billion. So per capita, same as Mulroney's increase in Canada. Now, will it take the "spend spend liberal" Obama to fix it? You know, like Clinton fixed Bush senior's debt?

In politics, the more conservative someone says they are, the more spending and tax cuts for the rich they seem to provide.

Brain?

[WillKemp]

Strewth! A politician with a brain? Somebody vote for him, please!

Re:Brain?

[x1n933k]

Unfortunately nobody will.

I have to admit I am no political guru but when you look at a party who actually has plans, advocates them well, has a leader who communicates fluently and can debate smartly I wonder why these guys haven't had better numbers. I suppose it is because Jack Layton doesn't attack the other parties in the media like the other leaders so the majority of voters seems to overlook them. He is simply not in the press shouting about a past scandal or taxes.

Honestly out of the three 'major' non-conservative parties(Liberal, Green, NDP), the NDP have been the best choice for Canadians but the average Joe and Jane Canadian seem to get caught up in the Liberal-Conservative arcade.

They won't win in my area because of Gilles Duceppe is the Bloc representative here, but I'm hoping the momentum will keep growing for them.

[J]

Re:Brain?

[bryxal]

Actually... As much as I agree with his tech views. Most of his plans are completely idealistic and borderline delusional. The leader is also a scummy politician. After a while you will see that he is an opportunist that only cares about what the media will give out and not the actual issues and doesn't take the time to try to explain a in depth analysis and how to actually solve it. Instead he spews populist jib jab on most topics. The only reason he is getting this right is because of Charlie Angus one of the Best supporters of Net Neutrality and Copyright Reform that is part of his party. So to recap: Charlie Angus = Good Jack Layton (leader) = Bad

Re:Brain?

[schon]

Most of his plans are completely idealistic and borderline delusional.

I don't know about that - although I haven't read anything in-depth, the cursory readings seem OK. Can you provide some examples?

The leader is also a scummy politician.

On this, I wholeheartedly agree with you. While well-spoken, he's a sociopath who refuses to accept responsibility for his own actions, and tries to take credit for the work of others (besides being prone to hyperbole.)

Examples: The last election was triggered when the NDP (led by Layton) voted non-confidence against a Liberal finance bill. The election happened over the holidays, and in a press conference Layton blamed the Liberals, saying that they "forced" him to trigger the election. (Rather than accepting responsibility for it, and saying that he couldn't vote in favour because of his conscience.)

During the English leader's debate, he said that "no NDP government in Canada has ever run a deficit." Conveniently ignoring the fact that the provincial and federal parties are completely different, essentially sharing only their names.

If the NDP had a decent leader, I would probably vote for them this election, but with Layton at the helm, fat chance.

Re:Brain?

[abigor]

We don't have a great choice of leaders at all in this election:

Harper: uncharismatic, suspiciously socially conservative

Elizabeth May: an American(!) and devout Christian

Dion: seems weak, plus the Liberals are corrupt and need a time-out

Layton: commented that Punjabi should be made Canada's third official language - enough said

Re:Brain?

[urbanriot]

I agree that he's a 'scummy politician.' He's considerably pandering to what Joe Every-man wants, without considering or acknowledging the economic side effects or tax requirements. He might come off as honest to some, but I see a man taking advantage of every situation, and saying what people want to hear.

Re:Brain?

[Anonymous Coward]

If I may add some thigns to this list

Harper: uncharismatic, suspiciously socially conservative

He's also a bit of an idiot and an asshole in his private life, this little tidbit DID come via a "freind of a freind" but its a reliable "freind of a freind."

Elizabeth May: an American(!) and devout Christian

WAS an American, she was 18 when the family moved to Nova Scotia and has spent 36 years as a Canadian, I think that's long enough dont you? Also she may be a Christian but she doesn't make a point of it. A perfect example being her stance on abortion, she doesn't personally support it but she acknowleges the need for it and therefore politically supports it.

Dion: seems weak, plus the Liberals are corrupt and need a time-out

He's a smart guy but unfortunately the language barrier is a bit of an issue and one which the Conservatives are quite prepared to mock him for. (To their discredit)

Layton: commented that Punjabi should be made Canada's third official language - enough said

Don't know much about him and what I do, I don't like.

Re:Brain?

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL you can't even spell 'friend', and you expect us to give you enough credibility to accept your fourth party source that he's a an asshole in his private life? Big deal, I'm an asshole too but I do a great job.

Re:Brain?

[Rary]

Dion: seems weak, plus the Liberals are corrupt and need a time-out

This is the problem I have with Canadians. The Chretien Liberals were definitely corrupt, and definitely needed a time-out. So what did we, the Canadian people, do to punish them for their corruption? We inflicted Stephen Harper on ourselves -- not to mention such gems as Stockwell Day, Jason Kenney, and Maxime Bernier (at least he's out of the picture now).

Today's Liberal party is mostly devoid of the people who were involved in the Sponsorship scandal. Sure, Dion seems a little weak, but have you seen Stephen Harper? We need to save ourselves from the "Reform Party dressed as the Conservative Party".

Please, end the time-out already.

Re:Brain?

[Have Brain Will Rent]

OMG - get your tv fixed! It's filtering out all those NDP ads attacking other parties! It must have also filtered out the televised debates where the NDP leader was attacking the Conservative leader!

The funny thing is that watching the debates the only leader who looked like a real competitor to Mr. Harper was Mr. Duceppe, who was passionate and obviously intelligent. It's too bad his party is based on breaking up Canada into two independent countries.

Re:Brain?

[Have Brain Will Rent]

On this, I wholeheartedly agree with you. While well-spoken, he's a sociopath who refuses to accept responsibility for his own actions, and tries to take credit for the work of others (besides being prone to hyperbole.)

Sociopath? Maybe... he does kind of make my skin crawl when I watch him speak... there's definitely something off about about him.

Re:Brain?

[Brickwall]

Oh, please. Don't you see Layton's TV ads where he claims he will hire 1,000 doctors? Forget that health care is a provincial matter; just remember it takes 7 years to train a doctor, so building new spaces at universities (Layton's "plan") won't have any effect until 2015. The Tories have a much more practical plan. They will make it easier for foreign professionals to have their credentials recognized. That will increase the number of new doctors almost immediately, and it doesn't cost as much.

Layton is not a good person - he and wife Olivia were both city councilors in Toronto, and they lived in a city owned co-op even though they were pulling in more than $100k/year. That meant a poor family was denied that apartment. He claims to be for the little guy, just not where his own bank account is involved.

Re:Brain?

[Brickwall]

He's a smart guy but unfortunately the language barrier is a bit of an issue and one which the Conservatives are quite prepared to mock him for. (To their discredit)

Oh please - the French press didn't crucify Joe Clark for his lousy French? Even the English papers typically prefaced any mention of his French with "awkward" or "clumsy". And Dion doesn't appear all that bright to me - his "Green Shift" is a ridiculous policy - and in a widely distributed clip of his appearance on ATV, he didn't understand a simple question, and had to have an aide explain it to him.

Re:Brain?

[Anonymous Coward]

You make it sound as if Harper is playing a fiddle while Canada burns. The truth is Canada is in great shape at the moment. Yes there are social issues on which the Conservative party is wrong on, but if it were another party in power they would be faced with the same problem, just with different issues.

I happen to believe that the level of taxation in Canada is more harmful to our overall quality of life than the social programs those taxes pay for are helpful. I want lower taxes. I want to keep more of the money I earn. I'll be voting conservative, and I'll do it again next election. The liberals could win me over if they wanted to concentrate on expanding civil liberties. That's not what their platform is about though. At least not this time around.

Re:Brain?

[schon]

Oh, please

Please what? Sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying here. You seem to think I disagree with you somehow.

Don't you see Layton's TV ads where he claims he will hire 1,000 doctors?

No, all I've seen are his attack ads against Harper. But yes, that does seem pretty far-fetched.

The Tories have a much more practical plan. They will make it easier for foreign professionals to have their credentials recognized.

What does the Tory plan have to do with NDP? (Besides the fact that they've been in power for two years, and haven't actually implemented anything.)

Layton is not a good person

Yeah, that's why I used the term sociopath to describe him.

Re:Brain?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Green Shift" is a ridiculous policy

What is ridiculous about putting a cost on emitting CO2? Currently the emitters benefit from being able to emit CO2 but the costs are felt by everyone. This is privatized gain with socialized risk. Putting a cost on emitting CO2 helps to eliminate this moral hazard.

in a widely distributed clip of his appearance on ATV, he didn't understand a simple question

The interviewer's question mixed present and past tenses in Dion's second language. When Dion asked for clarification, the interviewer's responses were sloppy and unclear. Perhaps Dion should have simply interpreted the question however he liked but as with the Quebec issue, Dion apparently prefers to have a clear question before answering.

Re:Brain?

[Kinetix303]

Again with the co-op smear. The way a housing co-op works is high income residents pay much higher rent so that low income residents don't have to pay as much. That way, it doesn't have to be subsidized by government at all. Either you don't understand how a housing co-op works or don't care. This smear was discredited more than a decade ago. When raised now it just illustrates the ignorance of the person who is repeating it.

Re:Brain?

[hachikyu]

I would vote bloc if they were not bend on breaking up Canada... I'm stuck out on the ass end of our great land(Nova Scotia) and that probably would not be in any way beneficial to us maritimers. Other than that one thing, I really like the guy and what I have heard about teh bloc...

Re:Brain?

[Have Brain Will Rent]

Yes, I'm also quite impressed with what I've seen of him.

Re:Brain?

[x1n933k]

I'm originally from Nova Scotia, been in Quebec for 3 years.

The Bloc is special, they're not 'bent' on breaking up Canada but I have more of an understanding now of the things Quebec culture deals with and can't help to sympathize. I don't feel it is any different from most places in Canada feeling disconnected from the 'rest'.

Another thing that is infectious is the French and their willingness to stand up against bad government, although not as obviously these days I find people are more openly political, regardless of the party you swear votes too. Could be too, I'm in Montreal and we have a big mixing pot of ideas, peoples and cultures.

[J]

Re:Brain?

[ceoyoyo]

I don't know... remembering past elections, the NDP seems to actually be taking this one seriously. I don't actually remember a federal election in which the NDP sounded so good since Ed Broadbent.

It's particularly impressive when you consider that the Conservatives are basically running on a platform of "hey, we're evil, but the Liberals are incompetent, so who ya gonna vote for?"

Re:Brain?

[Rary]

And you make it sound as if Canada was on the verge of destruction when Stephen Harper came along and magically turned everything to gold with his impotent minority government.

The truth is, Canada was in great shape before the Conservatives came to power, and it will remain in great shape no matter who wins this election. The Conservatives are dangerously wrong on far too many issues to allow them to maintain the little power they have, or worse yet, to actually gain more power through a majority government. And if taxation is your big concern, what have the Cons done for you, other than a token few pennies with the ridiculous GST reduction? And when have they given even the slightest hint of being interested in civil liberties, other than when they talk of taking them away?

New Democrats?

[DirtySouthAfrican]

New Democratic Party, isn't it? We're not American, or did I not get the memo?

Re:New Democrats?

[creepynut]

Haven't you ever seen a TV ad with Jack Layton?
He generally finishes up his little talks with "Vote for Change, Vote for the New Democrats"

Re:New Democrats?

[Anonymous Coward]

You didn't get the memo. They're typically referred to as the New Democrats here in speech and in the press. The poster is Canadian (@shaw.ca) like me, and the reference comes right after a healine that starts "Canadian NDP Leader". There's no confusion.

Not to pick on you personally, just your post shouldn't have gotten Score 4 Informative, so needs a reply to help the mods out.

Dion is such a whiney milquetoast

[Anonymous Coward]

He'd never do anything this decisive. And Harper's just Bush in drag. Too bad the rest of the NDP leadership is composed of 5 year olds and the Greens have a fiscal position that makes the conservatives look like socialists and the bloc Q insist on being so Franch.

Canadian politics are a total mess.

RS

Jack Layton

[nightfire-unique]

I've been a Liberal party supporter my entire life. It ended the day the walked out on the omnibus crime bill vote to prevent the government from falling.

I always like Jack Layton but I didn't spend much time reviewing his party, their voting record, or his speeches. After I decided to avoid the Liberals last year (or earlier this year.. can't remember) I started doing some real research. And I have to say, he is the first politician (at that level) I've actually admired. He speaks with a level of candor and immense credibility that is so rare.

He seems to genuinely care about his fellow man, and want to solve conflicts rather than fan the flames.

In short, he's precisely the opposite of this neocon wannabe we currently have running the country. Jack, if you happen to be reading this (and it wouldn't surprise me) you've got my vote. :)

Re:Jack Layton

[Anonymous Coward]

You're claiming that Jack Layton doesn't want to "fan the flames"?!?

I contend that you sir, do not know Jack.

Re:Jack Layton

[Jorophose]

I too am a long-time liberal (but just because we have a liberal MP and MPPs) and love Jack Layton.

I don't like the NDP (sorry, too socialist for me) but he is an honest, hard-working man. I never liked him before because during the debates in the last elections he was constantly going on "Oh vote NDP we're different we're better!" etc. While watching the french debates (I was planning on watching Joe Biden beat up Palin) though he changed for the better; although he's no Duceppe in terms of slamming everyone in the debates he's getting there.

Now, if only Jack Layton ran for Liberal, then I'd vote for him. ;P

(or NDP in my riding... you can easily tell everyone except for the liberal and possibly green candidates were shoe-horned by their friends and are really terrible.)

Re:Jack Layton

[mpetch]

He seems to genuinely care about his fellow man, and want to solve conflicts rather than fan the flames.

I guess "fellow man" is anyone in Canada who lives outside of Alberta.

Re:Jack Layton

[Anonymous Coward]

I met Jack at a candidate nomination meeting before the last election. We had a good chat about fair-use, platform neutrality, and anti-circumvention clauses.

Re:Jack Layton

[arthurpaliden]

Yes you have to admire a man who lives in govenment supported low income housing while he and his wife have a combined income of over $100,000 dollars a year.

Re:Jack Layton

[brady8]

He is a very sincere and genuine leader who I would really love to lead our country.

It's too bad though that his party's platform is so far out in left field that it scares me. Some good ideas in there, such as their technology platform in general. But their protectionist policies would pretty much destroy our economy, including lending support (using my tax dollars) to unsustainable and uneconomical jobs for Canadian autoworkers, ending the North American Free Trade Agreement, and generally throwing money at various industries in exchange for union votes in the next election.

Re:Jack Layton

[Anonymous Coward]

That seems reasonable.

Re:Jack Layton

[gmack]

He seems to genuinely care about his fellow man, and wants to solve conflicts rather than fan the flames.

Jack is nothing more than a walking soundbite. I lost any respect I had for him last election when he made a big show of handing a coin to a pan handler. As someone who has actually worked with street people I can tell you that the absolute worst thing you can do for them is give them money.

And if he really was about solving conflicts he would not be so eager to accuse his opponents of "hidden agendas". He has spent more time name calling than any other party leader.

I'm at a complete loss on who to vote for this election. Harper has done a decent job fiscally but I can't vote for someone who tried to pass a Canadian DCMA. Dion is an idiot who thinks hes Obama and wants to rearrange the tax system in a really stupid way. Layton just comes off cross between a used car salesmen and the uncle from the Adam's Family and someone really needs to inform him that "eat the rich" is bad fiscal policy.

Re:Jack Layton

[Anonymous Coward]

Alberta is the new Toronto. Deal with it.

Re:Jack Layton

[Superpants]

I agree, he seems very disingenuous. He has all these plans, but no way to implement them. It's like the election is one big ego trip for him. Harper was just at the right place at the right time. The economy would have done well with or without him, simply because none of the other candidates have the gumption to change the status quo. While Elizabeth May does talk out of her ass every now and then, she does have a freshness to her that is a nice change from the rotting bucket of chum everyone else can claim to reside in.

Re:Jack Layton

[Abcd1234]

The economy would have done well with or without him

As evidenced by the fact that it's clear, particularly after the debate, that his economic policies are to just let things kinda tick along and let whatever happens happen.

I agree about May, though. I think she was one of the best performing politicians in the debate (specifically the English language debate, which is the one I watched). Layton, by contrast, spent the entire time doing his best to paint Harper as the spawn of the devil, and neglected to actually outline what his own party would do. I was, to say the least, unimpressed...

Re:Jack Layton

[Kinetix303]

Bollocks. He lived in a mixed income co-operative housing unit that uses the higher rent charged to high-income earners to subsidize the costs of the lower-income units. It was not government subsidized housing. In fact, the housing unit would have failed financially if there were no higher income earners living there. You clearly have no understanding of how mixed incoming cooperative housing actually works, or you're just trying to toss an already much-discredited 15 year old smear with no basis in reality.

Re:Jack Layton

[HungSoLow]

The problem with Layton is his stance on the welfare state: I'm all for free health care, higher taxes for the rich, social safety nets - but his policies punish people who work and earn their achievements. He would limit education scholarships and make them taxable and simultaneously dump more money into disabilities and unemployment welfare. I think people should have a safety net if they become incapacitated but it needs to be genuine. I know quite a few people on disability, and they deserve nothing they're receiving - they're merely discomforted like many people who work despite their problems. The canadian government can save a bundle if they cut off these lazy sacs. As a final example, if you go on disability and doctors determine that an operation can fix the problem, you have the right to avoid the (free) operation AND stay on disability. That is an enormous crock of shit.

Re:Jack Layton

[arthurpaliden]

Is that not how politics works in this day and age. After all is that not what he himself is doing with regard to the Conservitive and Liberal parties and their leaders?

Re:Jack Layton

[thestreetmeat]

Alberta has 28 ridings, and they're all going conservative. Nobody cares about you at this point in the election. I suggest you hurry up and separate, so you can save your annual $300 (!!) per capita in transfer payments.

Re:Jack Layton

[Kinetix303]

No, it isn't, and even if it was, that's not justification.

Re:Jack Layton

[smartin]

For those of you with short memories, the last time that the NDP had any real power (at least in Ontario) was with Bob Ray and they ran the province into the ground.

Don't be fooled by a party full of idiots that happen to have the correct viewpoint on one issue. The last thing that Canada needs is the NDP in charge.

Re:Jack Layton

[arthurpaliden]

You mean to tell me that Mr. Laton is not picking items out of the other two leaders pasts and using them out of context and applying inuendo in order to discredit them. I sugest that you watch a few of the NDP ads and liten ot his retoric.

Re:Jack Layton

[schon]

I started doing some real research. And I have to say, he is the first politician (at that level) I've actually admired.

Then either your research is poor, or you're easily swayed by emotion rather than logic.

He speaks with a level of candor and immense credibility that is so rare.

Credibility?!?! OK, you really haven't done any research. He's prone to hyperbole ("Harper wants to quit his job as PM") and can't accept responsibility for his own actions. ("It's not my fault - the Liberals *made* me do it!")

want to solve conflicts rather than fan the flames.

Oh, come on. All he's ever done is fan the flames!

Re:Jack Layton

[Have Brain Will Rent]

As evidenced by the fact that it's clear, particularly after the debate, that his economic policies are to just let things kinda tick along and let whatever happens happen.

Part of letting things tick along is letting the Bank Of Canada do its job the way it is intended to do - such as putting out a 0.5% drop in the bank rate which was coordinated with the equivalent entities in other countries doing the same.

Re:Jack Layton

[Anonymous Coward]

At best Jack Layton comes across as a naive idiot. To me he gives the same impression as a smarmy used car salesman.
Before voting NDP, if you are from Ontario, try remembering what the provincial NDP under Bob Rae (now a liberal) did, and the resulting painful cuts by Harris that were needed to fix it.

Re:Jack Layton

[Brickwall]

I agree about May, though. I think she was one of the best performing politicians in the debate

Not a chance - she was rude, hectoring, and constantly interrupting Harper. Harper, in contrast, was polite, and calm. I thought the purpose of a debate was to give one person the right to speak at any time, and since I was on my debating team at high school, I know whereof I speak. The three wannabes were all terrible. Duceppe actually impressed me; it's too bad he wants to break up the country.

Re:Jack Layton

[Goalie_Ca]

They killed BC as well. In fact, they were so disliked they only got 2 seats in the following provincial election. The BC liberals totally dominated the legislature.

Re:Jack Layton

[pureevilmatt]

Patrick Stewart + Tom Selleck = Jack Layton = Vote NDP

Re:Jack Layton

[Anonymous Coward]

Monetary policy is only half the equation. In more serious economic times, fiscal policy should also be adjusted. Unfortunately deficits are so unpopular in Canada that none of the major parties will allow for a fiscal deficit as economic stimulus during an economic slowdown.

Re:Jack Layton

[Anonymous Coward]

Dion is an idiot

I haven't seen anything that suggests to me that any of the major party leaders are idiots. Some of them may have some unintelligent candidates in some ridings, but I get the impression that the leaders are all fairly intelligent.

who thinks hes Obama

Strange that you get this from Dion. I would think this description applies more to Layton, and Googlefight agrees.

and wants to rearrange the tax system in a really stupid way

What is stupid about putting a cost on emitting CO2? Currently the emitters benefit from being able to emit CO2 but the costs are felt by everyone. This is privatized gain with socialized risk. Putting a cost on emitting CO2 helps to eliminate this moral hazard.

Re:Jack Layton

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with Layton is his stance on the welfare state: I'm all for free health care, higher taxes for the rich, social safety nets - but his policies punish people who work and earn their achievements. He would limit education scholarships and make them taxable and simultaneously dump more money into disabilities and unemployment welfare. I think people should have a safety net if they become incapacitated but it needs to be genuine. I know quite a few people on disability, and they deserve nothing they're receiving - they're merely discomforted like many people who work despite their problems. The canadian government can save a bundle if they cut off these lazy sacs. As a final example, if you go on disability and doctors determine that an operation can fix the problem, you have the right to avoid the (free) operation AND stay on disability. That is an enormous crock of shit.

You say you know many people on disability who do not deserve it. How can you say this for sure? Have you walked a mile in their shoes? Have you tried to live on a disabilty cheque? I am on disability (in Canada) and to some may look capable of working. But I am not. I can walk around, talk normally and think clearly (and hope to stay that way for quite some time). I truly wish I could work, but the brain tumor (which has been operated on btw) keeps me from doing so. On top of that the government limits how much I could make if I were able. I agree there are some abusers out there giving all of us not visibly disabled a bad name. But the time spent weeding them out would cost the medical system more than the miniscule amount gives to those on disability.

Re:Jack Layton

[gmack]

who thinks hes Obama

Strange that you get this from Dion. I would think this description applies more to Layton, and Googlefight agrees.

http://election.globaltv.com/topstorydetail.aspx?sectionid=223&postid=49412

Bush third term? Blatant Obama ripoff. Never mind that the GOP considers Canadian conservatives to be too liberal for their taste.

What is stupid about putting a cost on emitting CO2? Currently the emitters benefit from being able to emit CO2 but the costs are felt by everyone. This is privatized gain with socialized risk. Putting a cost on emitting CO2 helps to eliminate this moral hazard.

Well first off as it's presented it's taking from corporations on one hand and giving it back as personal tax cuts.. basically raising corporate taxes via the back door. Who will end up paying for the higher corporate taxes? The consumers.

Second: Taxes on gasoline and heating oil are already carefully balanced so that people pay more to drive but less to heat their homes. Messing with that balance is dangerous.

Third: punishing carbon emitters is a bad idea. That's all stick and no carrot. Energy consumption is already expensive and a motivator to cut costs. What happens if you can't afford to make the needed improvements? Take my landlord for instance. He and his wife both work full time to pay for his house. We have talked several times about how he could save money by replacing his ancient heating oil system and replacing it with a new one. Want to know why he hasn't yet? He can't afford the $15 000 it would cost him. He just doesn't have that money laying around. Same goes for some of the homeowners around the corner who can't afford the major renovations needed to properly insulate their houses. My old apartment wasn't insulated properly either but my landlord didn't feel the need to insulate the place. Why not? Because I had to pay for the heating. Guess who would pay the increased carbon tax too? What obscure corner of Canada does this all happen in? St-Laurent, Dion's own riding. All he had to do was talk to some of his own constituents to find out what the problems with his plans are.

Re:Jack Layton

[Anonymous Coward]

And on the subject of unemployment inurance (I meant to add this last post) not everyone has the advantage of living in areas of the country with full-time work all year round. The fishing and logging industries being the best examples of this. I do, however, think unemployment should only go to those who need it and not to those who made huge sums through the work year. People should learn to budget for the year. This would make the EI form more like a tax return, but so be it.

Re:Jack Layton

[Anonymous Coward]

Never mind that the GOP considers Canadian conservatives to be too liberal for their taste.

I often see this sort of comparison between political parties in different countries. There is some merit to the comparison, but I think it's important to take into account that successful political parties don't set their platform based on pure ideology, but they also take into account the current status quo. Thus since Canada has more social programs than the US, it is natural to expect that mainstream Canadian political parties appear to the left of those in the US. If in some strange situation the GOP were to try to expand into Canada, I would expect them to have a platform much closer to the Canadian mainstream than their policies in the US.

Well first off as it's presented it's taking from corporations on one hand and giving it back as personal tax cuts.. basically raising corporate taxes via the back door. Who will end up paying for the higher corporate taxes? The consumers.

The Liberals don't talk about it a lot, but if you look at page 4 of their costing document, you'll note that under the Green Shift column, they have $8.5 billion in corporate tax cuts. The $1.2 billion corporate tax increase in the "Tax Changes" column appears to come from the ending of oil sands tax subsidies.

As for passing costs on to the consumer, this is to be expected to some extent. Where economically sound, companies will reduce energy consumption to reduce costs from the carbon tax. Otherwise they will in many cases pass the cost on to the consumer. This in turn discourages consumption of products that require emitting a lot of greenhouse gases in order to produce. The very progressive personal income tax cuts are intended to offset the increased costs felt by the consumer.

What happens if you can't afford to make the needed improvements?

The EnerGuide for Houses program was started by the previous Liberal government, canceled by the Conservatives, then relaunched under a new name, ecoENERGY Retrofit. It provides up to $5000 for homeowners who retrofit their homes to save energy. It looks like the current Liberal platform doubles that amount. The platform also includes interest-free "Green Mortgage" loans of up to $10k for what looks like the same sort of retrofits.

Re:Jack Layton

[bulliver]

I lost all respect for May when during the english debate she evaded answering a direct question on whether or not she would close all private clinics.

Re:Jack Layton

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently your memory does not cover the proper spelling of Bob Rae's surname. However, I'm sure everyone trusts your recall of the macroeconomic climate and Ontario's fiscal position during his premiership...

Re:Jack Layton

[Abcd1234]

Not a chance - she was rude, hectoring, and constantly interrupting Harper.

Yeah, I agree. But IMHO, she also came across as informed and educated. She was one of the few that actually cited numbers and real evidence, both when attacking her opponents and supporting her own positions.

Then again, in that group, that's really damning with faint praise...

In contrast, while Harper certainly came across as calm, I also thought he came across as superficial... he had a tough time defending his non-interventionist economic policies, and given that's the heart of their economic platform, I expected better. Similarly, Dion couldn't really articulate and defend their platform, and Layton came across as a bitchy asshole.

And I agree re Duceppe. I actually thought he did pretty well, as well (although his tendency to refuse to let Harper ignore his questions got annoying at times). If they weren't, you know, a separatists party, their soft-left regionalist policies might actually go over well with the Canadian electorate...

Re:Jack Layton

[Abcd1234]

Yeah... in the end, she basically said "no", but I suspect that's not what her base actually wants to hear.

It's no different than the debate moderator (who's name escapes me) asking Harper if he'd vow to never raise taxes. Harper dilly-dallied over that question and never really answered it because, guess what, he *can't* say "yes", even if his electorate wants him to.

Bravo

[MonsterTrimble]

Jack & I have something we agree on.

But I still think he's an idiot and would wreck the country if elected.

Re:Bravo

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm likely voting NDP not because I want them to form a government, but because I want them to be the opposition.

The opposition is there to hold the government accountable for its actions, and sadly, the Liberals have done a terrible job of that lately.

Re:Bravo

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry but this is Canada, and so far no SINGLE MAN can be responsible for wrecking the country. Though that might change if Harper keeps spending. Give me a few actually reasons to believe you and I'll reconsider my opinion.

Right now we have a government doing a lot a business with a country that isn't doing well and what do we get? Nothing but a sinking dollar, the US is a sinking ship and we keep investing towards them. If the Conversative government had balls it would be making Canada more of a powerhouse instead of playing poker with their American business.

Re:Bravo

[dexmachina]

Strategic voting never works. That's how the Ontario NDP under Bob Rae ending up as the provincial government in 1990. The Liberals left him with a $700 million deficit. His brilliant economics turned it into a $9.1 billion deficit. The NDP are like a backseat driver who, when you finally get fed up and let him take the wheel, realizes he doesn't know how to drive.

Re:Bravo

[thestreetmeat]

People seem to have very distorted memories when it comes to Rae's government in the early 90s. The NDP took over just as the economy was heading into the worst recession since the great depression. His government did what pretty much every other government does in a recession - increase spending to break the cycle. I seriously doubt the Liberals would have done anything different. If Rae did anything wrong, it was to neglect his main support on the left with his wage cuts and mandatory unpaid vacation measures. Measures aimed at reducing the deficit.

Of course, once the voters put Mike Harris in power, he simply had 16,000 public servants laid off. 6 of one, half-dozen of the other.

Re:Bravo

[Have Brain Will Rent]

That's got nothing to do with Harper or the Conservatives - it has been the problem with every federal government for decades. Canada has an economy almost totally tied to one other country. It has always needed to diversify and generate more trade with other countries. Mind you that wouldn't have done much good with the current situation - since every country seems to be going into the tank Canada's position as an exporter would be done in no matter what this time around. Canada is in a good situation relative to others because the banking system is more stable and because the national debt per capita is quite low, compared to say the US. Canada also had huge job creation numbers (just released) so that even with an influx of employment seekers and the current economic maelstrom the unemployment rate didn't go up.

Re:Bravo

[kick_in_the_eye]

Yeah, that is how Ontario had an NDP majority. Be careful on Tuesday.

Re:Bravo

[TheSpoom]

And let's not talk about what Mike Harris actually did to this province. My brain has still blocked that particular memory to protect itself.

Re:Bravo

[ceoyoyo]

The problem with Mike Harris was that he was trying to be Ralph Klein, but without the drinking. Everybody knows you can't be King Ralph without the drinking!

Video Professor Look-a-Like

[mpetch]

Does video professor have a P2P course? ;-)

What's with the P2Pnet logo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are the people in the P2Pnet logo waving handguns around? I have nothing against proper use of handguns, but what is that in the logo?

Yeah, but...

[WelcomeOurOverlords]

...guys, if you vote NDP, the TERRORISTS WILL HAVE WON!

How Ironic

[dskoll]

Use of modern P2P technology by an old-style socialist party whose policies have been discredited since the 1970's.

Re:How Ironic

[Anonymous Coward]

... he says, in the midst of the greatest international government intervention in history.

Re:How Ironic

[dskoll]

Hey, I'm completely opposed to GWB and his pals, including this $700B bailout. If people want to be greedy, they should pay the consequences. It's absolutely despicable that taxpayers are on the hook for stupid people who bought houses they couldn't afford and for greedy investment bankers. Just because I oppose the NDP doesn't mean I'm for the neocons.

Regulation

[Narishma]

But isn't increased Internet regulation necessary to prevent big companies to do whatever they want at the expense of regular users?

Mandatory internet filtering (was Re:Wrong Tag)

[Anonymous Coward]

The trap is mandatory internet filtering (see the last paragraph in section 1):

We will:
[...]
Implement new legislation to require all Canadian Internet Service Providers to prevent the publication or proliferation of child sexual abuse content on the Internet.

Generally, countries implement this by using a blacklist which:

• blocks entire sites (by DNS or IP) rather than just the forbidden content, thereby blocking legitimate content as well
• is secret, and maintained by an unaccountable organisation
• can be abused to block legitimate speech
• is unverifiable: assuming it works perfectly, nobody can access the listed sites to check whether they really contain child pornography
• doesn't work unless you're in a police state: things like international VPNs, proxies, TOR, and private DNS servers can't be blocked in a free country

Re:Mandatory internet filtering (was Re:Wrong Tag)

[TheSpoom]

You're extending a generality into a specific case, which isn't necessarily how they'd do it. They could implement, say, a DMCA-style approach to this sort of thing.

I agree that they should be more specific, but let's not make straw men.

open source

[alexandreracine]

Yep, and their website http://www.ndp.ca/ is using Drupal! :)

Re:open source

[Anonymous Coward]

check out:
www.greenparty.ca

That's goo, but I'd never vote NDP

[ip_freely_2000]

They're just to left-wing wacky on too many issues to be in power. I like them as a solid opposition though, they keep things relatively honest.

I've been voting Conservative since I started making good money.....but their copyright stance is just stupid and American. I may vote Green this time.

Re:That's goo, but I'd never vote NDP

[Anonymous Coward]

I second that, for a relatively new party (they've been around since the 80's but they've made great strides in the last 8 years or so), the Green party is pretty fiscally conservative, except for maybe the carbon tax, but socially liberal. I've been voting conservative for as long as I've been able to vote, but I'm seriously considering voting Green this time. Too bad the party leader probably won't even win the riding she's running in though

Re:That's goo, but I'd never vote NDP

[Anonymous Coward]

I voted green in an advance poll. I figured the more parties are viable to win an election the harder the politicians will work for their jobs.

Re:That's goo, but I'd never vote NDP

[MarkRose]

I voted Green in advanced polling. It makes so much sense to me to move the tax burden from what's good in society to what's bad in society: reduce income and corporate taxes and tax pollution instead. This not only increases the reward for productive effort while discouraging negative activity, it also encourage the economy to become more efficient and thus more competitive.

Re:That's goo, but I'd never vote NDP

[dskoll]

I was going to vote Green, but they've (alas) been hijacked by wacko leftists as far as their foreign policy goes. I really, really wanted to vote Green this election, but they blew it.

Re:That's goo, but I'd never vote NDP

[MarkRose]

http://www.greenparty.ca/en/lp/foreign_policy/intro

What's bad about that? Honestly, I'd like to know the downsides.

Re:That's goo, but I'd never vote NDP

[schon]

What's bad about that?

Come on, they didn't *once* use the phrase "support our troops" - they're clearly freedom-hating communist-loving terrists!

Re:That's goo, but I'd never vote NDP

[MicktheMech]

Then why not vote Liberal and actually have a chance to that policy being implemented?

Re:That's goo, but I'd never vote NDP

[MarkRose]

Because I'm voting for all the other policies the Green Party has, not just one. I don't agree with them all, but I think, on the whole, they have the best ideas.

Re:That's goo, but I'd never vote NDP

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess you missed the National Post article from a few weeks ago. It's been introduced before... not by the Conservatives.

Furthermore, a minority party doesn't get a bill passed all by itself. Don't be naive. Do you really think this won't pop up again next session, even with another party in power?

Can't say I'm a fan of the no work requirement/guaranteed income idea of the Green party... or their plan to gut the economy and send businesses away screaming in one foul swoop. The Greens have some good candidates here and there, but they still have no practical plans or foresight about basic issues. It would be nice if we could all sit in organic fields and pick posies, but we need to get real.

As usual, the problem is picking the lesser of ... four/five evils...

Slashdot shouldn't post partisan press releases!

[zabby39103]

"The first leader of a major Canadian political party to acknowledge the importance of the Internet during a federal election?" Are you effing kidding me? A quick google would clearly show this to be false. Every major party is all over YouTube as well, and every major party but the Conservatives support net neutrality. Please be more careful, this is way worse than a typical story dupe.

The state of copyright in Canada.

[nitsnipe]

I'm Canadian and an NDP supporter but truth be told, it doesn't really matter in Canada who wins our election (which is on Tuesday by the way). Us the regular people tend to always get our way. Besides, our Conservative party is more left wing than the Democrats in U.S. What we know for sure about this election is that it is going to be another minority government, and the beauty of that is that no one can pass up any legislation that is too controversial(i.e. war on Iraq). Does this mean that things do not get done? No not really. It's Canada anyways, compared to many other countries around the world we do not have a huge urge to get things done at the moment and our economy seems to be surprisingly capable right now on weathering out this worldwide financial storm. Back on the main subject.A short time ago, the Conservatives tried to quietly pass up a Canadian version of the DMCA and that didn't go too well for them. Again that's the beauty of the minority government. Right now in Canada we pay a tax for blank media(CD/DVD-Rs) and that's about it. We are allowed to download music and movies as long as we keep it personal and do not use it to make profit. I've asked police officers, lawyers about this and they've told me it's ok, they know their kids download music too. Heck an executive of an ISP even told me he downloads torrents himself when I met him at the Toronto wireless conference. A problem that we do have is that our market is almost a monopoly. It's all only Bell and Rogers with their third parties and these two companies are stifling advancement in our communications industry and tightening their leash on us customers. We have 60Gb bandwidth caps and very expensive 3g access. But there are legal ways to get around this. You can change to a third party ISP, pay a bit more but no caps or if your neighbour's are not what you can call /.readers then their wireless is probably open anyways. I hope I gave a little insight to non-Canadians about the state of copyright in Canada. As you can see, it's not too bad.

Green Party was the first to support open source

[humble]

The federal Green Party was the first major Canadian party to include support for net neutrality and open source in its platform.

http://www.linux.com/feature/120280

its a north american thing apparently

[unity100]

look pal, youre the only continent that is stuck with that mccarthian scarecrowing shit about left.

entire europe is on social democracy, and it already got past north america in terms of economy and life standard, - hell, in every aspect of life.

get this shit into your head -> in life EVERYthing needs BALANCE. without balance, everything flops. economy is not exempt from this basic rule.

'socialism boooooooooo' 'nationalization booooooooo' 'government intervention booooooooooo'

please, its 2008. stop it.

Re:its a north american thing apparently

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, time for the hard working individuals to stand aside for the lazy socialists. Hopefully in another 100 years people will wake up from this bleak period...

Re:its a north american thing apparently

[Anonymous Coward]

You better recheck your facts buddy. Many countries in Europe have center and right from center governments, that are just as cyclical as though in North America. Off the top of my head I can think of Italy and the UK, and Austria's right wing vote was unfortunately split between two ultra-right parties.

Please, it's 2008, learn to google.

Re:its a north american thing apparently

[canuck57]

look pal, youre the only continent that is stuck with that mccarthian scarecrowing shit about left.

Ah, managed to get a NDiaPer to wake up.

entire europe is on social democracy, and it already got past north america in terms of economy and life standard, - hell, in every aspect of life.

Then you should move there. When I lived/worked in Europe the pay for the locals, well, wasn't good. And taxes, whew....great cultural place to visit but no want to live there unless I was filthy rich.

get this shit into your head -> in life EVERYthing needs BALANCE. without balance, everything flops. economy is not exempt from this basic rule.

Yes, everything needs a balance. It is also why the NDP are out of balance. They have great talk, lovely ideas, promise the moon. And it works great until the credit card comes past due. The balance for an NDP is credit runs out.

'socialism boooooooooo' 'nationalization booooooooo' 'government intervention booooooooooo'

I agree, all are bad in the above. But it is what is happening in the markets and the super rich know it. Internationalization of the worlds currencies and economies has just began. please, its 2008. stop it.

Re:its a north american thing apparently

[unity100]

i cant waste any more time on mccarthyists sorry. keep living in the 50s.

Populist measures of NDP

[randito]

The NDP is pretty tech savvy usually. They have two other platform points that are interesting, although populist:

1. Ban bank fees for using competing banks ATMs. Canadian banks are much larger than their american counterparts, and are more profitable. The mortgage crisis here has been avoided due to more goverment regulation, and the banks are expected to continue to profit at the expense of poorer people who are hit with elevated service charges. Bank fees on ATMs stiffle competition by encouraging people to stay with the big five banks that have the power to litter every city with thousands of bank machines. In quélbec almost all of the ATMs are in the hands of one credit union in quebec , la caisse populaire desjardins, which has 80% + of the market here.
2. Ban cellphone contracts and cellphone locking and allow users to switch companies while keeping their telephone number. The allowing to switch companies while keeping your number has already been implemented by the canadian govt, but the 3 year cellphone contract remains. The government also auctioned off a large chunk of spectrum, reserving a large percentage for new contenders. We are on the right path, but the contracts are prohibitive to competition.

Disclaimer: I am not an NDP supporter, I am actually a card carrying liberal. I just like these policies.

Re:Populist measures of NDP

[Brickwall]

Um, Canadian banks are larger than the American ones? Don't tell the people at Citi, or JPMorgan Chase, or Bank of America, or any of the other three US banks that are larger than Royal, Canada's biggest bank. Citi had revenues of $131 billion in 2006, while Royal had revenues of $24 billion. That's less than 20% of Citi's take.

And the reason we're not having a mortgage crisis is most people still get their mortgages from the banks, who expect to be repaid. In the US, the creation of CDO's spurred the growth of mortgage brokers, who sold their mortgages almost as soon as they were signed. The brokers were not on the hook for the money - their exposure was zero. So, they gave anyone with a pulse a mortgage - the broker gets his commission, his boss makes his numbers, and everybody's happy. It has nothing to do with government regulation; Canadian bankers do their due diligence, confirming income, employment, and demanding some money down. US mortgage brokers didn't do any of that, which is why there are so many dodgy loans.

And ATM fees? If I use a system from another bank, they had to pay for the machine, refilling it, maintaining it, etc. without getting a dime of revenue from me. Why should I get a free ride? And if you think the big banks' fees are expensive, try going to one of the "white label" ATMs. I had a friend who used one (he's not very bright), and he was charged $6.50 to take out $20. I'm pretty frugal (i.e. cheap), so I tend to use TD's machines only, but sometimes you just need cash right away. However, I haven't paid an ATM fee in over a year; I just plan so that I can get cash when I need it. Debit cards help too.

Re:Populist measures of NDP

[Tuoqui]

Yeah but how much of that $131 billion that Citi has is part of the bad mortgage scheme that happened? Could it be that they're overstating their revenues using fancy pants accounting?

Re:Populist measures of NDP

[randito]

Perhaps I should have been more precise. Canadian banks are more consolidated than the US banking system.

Canada has roughly 1/10 of the population of the U.S. When I see canadian government expenditures, for example, I am in the habit of multiplying be 10 and looking for similar expenditures in the U.S.

According to this rule, in order for Citibank to be as influential in the U.S., it would have to have revenues of $240 billion U.S. to compare to our Royal Bank.

I am quite sure that Royal has more bank machines per capita than Citi, which validates my earlier point.

What he really thinks

[Anonymous Coward]

"'We don't want to see hidden fees and gouging and service slow-downs all in the interests of promoting the objectives of certain large corporations,' Layton says.""

What he really thinks is "We we will be totally upfront with our extra taxes and service slowdowns, all in the name of promoting our socialist vision."

Layton is SUCH a politico-whore. That guy will promise and say damn near ANYTHING to suck votes from the gullible. I would trust Dion or Harper any day over that dubious leader, and that's not saying much. Thank the gods that he won't be running a government any time soon. Hopefully never.

Of Course Layton likes P2P!

[GISGEOLOGYGEEK]

Layton's platform would kill so many jobs ...

Raising corporate taxes from 22% up to 30% as we get sucked into the US made financial crisis would make us so uncompetitive. He promises to do this to raise money for his child benefit plan. But we won't need his child care plan, we'll be stuck at home all day with the kids without jobs.

Layton was doing well in the polls (for the NDP) ... right up to the day the official NDP platform was released and Canadians let out a collective WTFOMGRUN !!!

Layton has to support P2P ... all the people his plan makes unemployed will need some way to pass their time, and they sure won't have any spare money to spend on actually buying their entertainment.

Re:Green Party was the first to support open sourc

[GISGEOLOGYGEEK]

Anyone who has been sucked into the Conservative fear-mongering lies about the Liberal Carbon tax will run away fast from the Green Party. The plans are essentially identical.

Re:Slashdot shouldn't post partisan press releases

[GISGEOLOGYGEEK]

Wow man, what have you been 'Puffin'?

Re:Bravo, and a BIG finger to Trudeau

[mcneely.mike]

Before Trudeau, we pretty much had balanced budgets. To get re-elected (ie: buy votes), he spent money and borrowed. He used our credit cards to buy us goodies, and we were to stupid (naive) back then to understand that "great uncle Pierre" who was buying us all these goodies was actually putting us into deep debt. If any single man wrecked this country it was Pierre "give em the finger, fuddle duddle" Trudeau, the worst Prime Minister Canada has ever had. (No pirouette being done here.)

Polarization is a disease

[Strych9]

There is nothing wrong with the NDP per say. People have become way to polarized over EVERYTHING. Wake up and start to think on your own and not what your "party" wants you to squawk.

The NDP makes a good opposition watch dog to ensure that government doesn't just roll over everyone to make a other special interests or back room deals happy. Government is supposed to be about the citizens, and I think people have truely forgotten that.

I don't like everything the NDP has brought down, I mean 400$ per kid/ month? Why should a single guy like me have to pay for some dead beat with 11 kids who is socially unfit or irresponsible? Your kids, your problem. I even like the conservative hardening stance on youth crime. Both items don't mean I wont' or will support either party, just making a point, that I will consider the platforms. Ironically it seems that even those items these days are just a bunch of random chatter that has no meaning whatsoever, unfortunate.

However how I vote will be a reading of policy and not some bland loyalty. It is too bad people don't do this anymore and just eat the soundbites offered, instead of make up your own mind.

But kudos that someone at least is saying something about these issues.

Moustache

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd vote NDP if it wasn't for Layton's Moustache...

Green Party supports open source

[Anonymous Coward]

Green Party explicitly mentions open source software in their party platform. That's where my single lousy useless vote is going.

Voting For Him

[JJman]

Just one more reason to vote for him!
Just remember: ABC! Anyone But Conservatives!

Jack Layton talks a big talk, but can he walk ?

[billcopc]

The thing I'm finding with Layton's NDP is they're saying a lot of things that make sense, things that would benefit society at large, but they are the ONLY ones making such promises. This begs the question of how are they going to make it all happen ? The answer is: they aren't.

I don't think anyone is remotely concerned about the NDP winning the federal election. The NDP excels as being the 3rd wheel in minority governments, as they proved back in the Trudeau years. For that reason, it is highly unlikely that any prospect that doesn't already fit within the liberals' or neocons' agenda would ever squeak its way through parliament. They will be supporters, not leaders.

Jack would be a good Leader of the Opposition

[hodet]

Maybe not ready for primetime but would be nice to see him as leader of the opposition in a minority government. I just can't respect Dion for abstaining from so many votes in the last parliament, basically giving the Tories an effective Majority. Harper backed him in a corner many times, just daring him to bring down the government and trigger an election. What did he do? He stuck his head in the sand instead of doing the right thing and taking Harper on like a man. Shameful and not worthy of running our country. Besides we have Charlie Angus running NDP in our riding. Got to vote for Charlie.

Even better

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll do 'em one better:
http://www.metagovernment.org/wiki/Main_Page

Wins my vote

[TheSpoom]

Full disclosure, I was heavily leaning toward voting NDP anyway, but this has won me over. While there's a little bit of me that considers that this may just be pandering, I think Jack Layton would make a great leader, I agree with just about all of their policies, and I think that they tap into what most Canadians want from their government.

If you saw the debate a while back, it was pretty much Harper attacking and everyone else attacking back, but Layton seemed to have the most concrete plans and platform for what they'd actually do when elected. None of the other parties can really say that (and especially not the Conservatives).

Also, I know that they're not going to actually win the election, but like my signature says, they most closely fit my political viewpoint, so they've got my vote.

Sorry Folks...

[TihSon]

After reading a few dozen posts, I feel I should apologize on behalf of my fellow Canadians. We bicker like children over the various lies our leaders tell us to distract ourselves from the fact we are friggin idiots!

A country full of political zealots who all feel that their way is the one and only path, because that's what they were told by the CBC. I am so sick and disgusted with our righteous ... almost religious ... indignation when faced with ... (oh the horror!) ... an opposing opinion.

Anyway, as you can all see I am not a lot better, so again I just want to apologize for my Canadian brothers and sisters. We will make it up to you one day, when we grow up.

puke

[roman_mir]

Generally speaking any party that has words 'democratic' or 'national' or 'communist' or 'socialist' is puke to me, I was born in the former Soviet Ukraine.

Specifically it looks extremely ridiculous to me that a person who has never had a real job except of being a career politician (from a family of career politicians no less) talks about the underprivileged and the poor of the society. Layton is against a 2tiered health care system yet he used private health care himself.

Layton is a snake who speaks what you want to hear.

yea yea

[unity100]

'hardworking' (hardworking my butt, fucking others whenever its convenient is more like it, like the hedge fund - mortgage thing), 'lazy socialists', 'individual' etc etc my BUTT.

fuck your individualism. you are NOT an individual, you are a member of a SOCIETY. if you want to be an individual, go to a fucking mountain and feed yourself there.

as long as you live and enjoy the benefits of being in the society thing we humans invented, you are going to fucking stick by the rules, bridle your greed, and care for others. because that's how society work.

if you cant do any of these, either shut the hell up or go move to a fucking desert.

yes waste your vote

[CHRONOSS2008]

why not send at least a message and vote NDP...
voting green is like not voting
vote liberal where liberal can win
vote NDP where ndp can win
vote green if it looks like they can win

vote however and make it count.

they will bring back C-61 AGAIN and we must hold politicians accountable

section 12 of the charter is about cruel and unusual punishment.

Do you think a 5000$ fine for driving without a license and thus potentially endangering lives is less a crime the breaking a digital lock on a dvdr that harms some rich fat jerk who overcharges us all in some foreign land at 20000 a shot