Court Rules That Palin Must Save Yahoo Emails

quarterbuck writes "An Anchorage judge has ruled that Governor Sarah Palin must save her emails, as they were apparently used for state business. Last week a Tennessee man was arrested over hacking one of her Yahoo email accounts. The Washington Post also reports that Sarah Palin, her husband, and officials had set up email accounts known only to each other."

Comments

Taking one for the team.

[Drakin020]

I guess you can say that 4chan kid took one for the team.

Had he not gained access (I don't use the word hack because he didn't hack anything) to her email account, this decision may not have come to be.

I guess you can say he took one for the team although that may not have been his original intentions.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Ethanol-fueled]

Before he was arrested, he posted that he was afraid and he basically bailed out. That's why he didn't back up the e-mails.

Now he's going to be seen the some cowering, harmless punk kid who half-wittedly exposed the blatant stupidity of Sarah Palin and the weaknesses of Yahoo and similar mail services.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Drakin020]

But do you think that if he had not gained access to her emails, this decision would have been made? Regardless if he backed out, this still resulted in her being forced to keep her yahoo emails. This could come back to bite her if she doesn't remove those emails first.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[stinerman]

Second paragraph FTA, friend:

The judge issued the orders at the request of Andree McLeod, an Anchorage activist whose pursuit of Palin's e-mails revealed that the governor did considerable state business from a Yahoo e-mail address -- an arrangement that avoided the safeguards and accountability of the state's secure e-mail system.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[zappepcs]

It's long been policy that government officials do not use non-government email and communications methods that circumvent the official logging of such communications. What she did was wrong, and in fact just as bad as the Whitehouse administration using non-whitehouse email services for official communications.

Though the guy who accessed her emails might be in trouble, I'd like to see a jury refuse to convict him. He should be seen as a whistleblower and protected, not prosecuted.

She hasn't even been elected to the Whitehouse yet and she has shown herself to be full of ineptitude and corruption. He is a hero in my book.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Drakin020]

I don't know if the term "Whistle blower" would be a good term to use. Whistle blowers typically KNOW something is going on that is illegal, I'm guessing this kids intentions were to be a giant douche but happened to stumble upon something. It's not like he knew that she was using a personal account to handle government related issues.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

But do you think that if he had not gained access to her emails, this decision would have been made? Regardless if he backed out, this still resulted in her being forced to keep her yahoo emails. This could come back to bite her if she doesn't remove those emails first.

I believe there was already an effort underway by some Alaskans to gain access to the emails in the commercial accounts that Palin and her staff were using. The account that got hacked was actually her personal Yahoo account, not one of the ones normally used for official business.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Drakin020]

I still think that because of this kid, the news got out more and resulted in this decision being made. Seriously if it wasn't for this kid, I would have had no idea that any of this was going on.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Narcocide]

Anonymous Coward, this level of paranoia is frighteningly contagious.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, a whistle blower must be involved somehow and not a random third party. He would have had to had PRIOR knowledge about illegal activities BEFORE breaking into her account which he clearly did not. That kid deserves punishment. He's not a hero. He's a vigilante. Guess what, we don't allow or reward that behavior in this country. This is no different than the government executing a search without a warrant except it was some college kid who had no respect for the law.

Nobody has yet pointed to specific emails, not even stinerman above. Stinerman just quoted, condescendingly I might add, the article apparently assuming some activist we've never heard of is reputable. Until an actual email comes to light from her Yahoo! account, there is no proof and you're all just going on hearsay and conjecture. Again, that's not how we operate in this country.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[thetoadwarrior]

Personal email accounts called gov.palin@yahoo.com and where the subjects clearly implied she was talking business?

Sorry, I don't believe for a second they were personal.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Deanalator]

From the looks of it, the one who got in trouble was not the one that gained access, but the one that took the screenshots and returned the account back to Palin.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[thetoadwarrior]

To be fair it depends on what you consider hacking when often a lot of hacking doesn't deal with using technology but social engineering and or using information about the person to get what they want.

I think the term shouldn't be used based on the fact the media is implying something else and probably doesn't fully understand. However the fact even even some of the "famous" hackers like Kevin Mitnick used social engineering to get people to give up information rather than using technology.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

Personal email accounts called gov.palin@yahoo.com and where the subjects clearly implied she was talking business?

Sorry, I don't believe for a second they were personal.

gov.palin@yahoo.com was her personal use account. gov.sarah@yahoo.com was the one that she was using for official state business.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[stinerman]

Certainly he is a reluctant hero.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Anonymous Coward]

The kid who hacked her account is the son of a Democrat politician. I think he knew what he was doing.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[thetoadwarrior]

Then it failed because it did have proof she was doing business with the account which also happened to have her title, gov (governor) in the email address.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Majik Sheff]

No, his intentions were to cause problems for the McCain/Palin campaign in the form of an epic trolling. This kid stopped when he realized that the 4chan party van would be at his door within hours.

He messed up, plain and simple. Now the media is going to have a feeding frenzy because they FINALLY have something to try to stick on Governor Palin. If this had been Joe Biden doing this we would have never heard about it. In fact, reporters would be calling for the head of this 4channer on a pike while simultaneously scrambling to demonstrate that the e-mails were harmless/irrelevant/nonexistent.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

gov.palin@yahoo.com was her personal use account. gov.sarah@yahoo.com was the one that she was using for official state business.

It doesn't really matter what she says the account was used for, it is the actual usage that counts.
The list of subjects and correspondents from the so-called 'personal use account' that are posted on wikileaks is extremely incriminating.

I'm sure that the worst punishment she will receive will be a slap on the wrist, after all the president and his staff have already done far worse wrt to email hiding and nothing happened to them. But what it does do is expose 'politics as usual' for her, all claims to maverick status are pretty much null and void now.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[konohitowa]

And I think that the more these types of decisions are made, the more people will revert to using phones for communications. I'm unclear as to why email is treated so much differently than other forms of communication. It's not as if an email should be any more (or less) binding than a verbal communication.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

My point was that it doesn't make a whole lot of difference if she was using the gov.palin@yahoo.com account for state business, because we already know she was using the other one for it. Whether it's either or both, she was circumventing the security and accountability of the state system.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[dnoyeb]

I knew. And about "troopergate" as well. Political shows cover all of this.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[thetoadwarrior]

It may or may not be but you're a private business that can do whatever you want.

Sarah Palin on the other hand is an employee of the the citizens of the US (some people forget this) and as such she shouldn't be hiding things from us just as it's expected that any employee shouldn't be hiding official business from their employer.

But it's not even about hiding things. Yahoo email isn't secure enough for someone who may have to be potentially passing around state security information.

Her supporters are more likely to be the type that live in fear of terrorists so why shouldn't they be applauded that she's doing something to make it easier for terrorists to find out potential information to aid in attacking her state which isn't that far fetched seeing how it's one of our resource rich states meaning that attacking it and destroying, for instance, the oil infrastructure could have a great effect on the whole nation.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[gmack]

I don't know how this keeps getting repeated. The media has been much easier on Palin than they were on Obama or even his wife. Not so much an anti Obama thing either it was that they got lambasted for going off into the trivial.

How long did they go on about "why doesn't he wear a flag pin?" Is your memory so short that you can't remember from two months ago?

McCain crying that the media hates him doesn't make it so. If he didn't want a media frenzy then he shouldn't have picked a complete unknown as his VP.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[SL Baur]

It's long been policy that government officials do not use non-government email and communications methods that circumvent the official logging of such communications.

And it's long been policy that said government officials "lose" official email as in the Clinton administration or deny it altogether as in Algore's "no controlling authority" statement.

This is truly a case of "everyone" does it. Perhaps the law is a good idea, but if you can't get your elected officials to ever obey it, what next?

I also think this has been misstated in the media, as Mrs. Palin has NOT been officially accused of any wrong doing.

Now, can we talk about former President Jimmy Carter's Community Reinvestment Act that precipitated the current economic meltdown?

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Zerth]

It actually just shows the mind-set of the people from the left.

Breaking the law = okay, as long as it is against the democratic party...

Ok, either you need a s/left/right or a s/democratic/republican

As it stands, your comment makes no sense...

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

I still think that because of this kid, the news got out more and resulted in this decision being made.

Seriously if it wasn't for this kid, I would have had no idea that any of this was going on.

Actually, I believe McLeod requested the emails and phone records before her other account got hacked. They already knew about her gov.sarah@yahoo.com account. The kid just found another one that she was using as well.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

Would you do everything by phone for your job? Never have a record of what you were asked to do or when you were asked to do it by? Or by whom? Don't you think that would be pretty dumb? There's a reason we put things in writing. It's called accountability. Something that many politicians, of any party, are sorely lacking these days. Let's not make things worse by letting them remove all accountability.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

I don't know if the term "Whistle blower" would be a good term to use. Whistle blowers typically KNOW something is going on that is illegal, I'm guessing this kids intentions were to be a giant douche but happened to stumble upon something. It's not like he knew that she was using a personal account to handle government related issues.

McLeod had already requested the email and phone records of Palin's aides before the account got hacked. The kid didn't uncover anything really. They already knew she was using commercial accounts for state business. The kid is just an idiot for getting into her account, a bigger idiot for bragging about it, and astoundingly stupid for making it so ridiculously easy to track him down. He probably won't get too steep of a punishment. Hope he manages to learn something from this.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

They already knew about her using commercial accounts for state business. Read this article. They already had boxes of emails from her aides, all sent to her yahoo address (save one which was a mistake).

Re:Taking one for the team.

[konohitowa]

The vast majority of my job requests are done verbally. As it turns out, I'm able to remember things from moment to moment without creating accountability problems. Much like I did before email was commonly available. Believe it or not, the world functioned prior to email and signed memos certainly weren't required for every task.

But my point is that treating email as golden opportunities for legal action is likely to push people away from using email for anything even remotely sensitive.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[xstonedogx]

It doesn't take paranoia to conclude that someone breaking the law is going to take steps to conceal the fact.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Anonymous Coward]

there is no proof and you're all just going on hearsay and conjecture. Again, that's not how we operate in this country.

Iraqi WMDs?

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Mix Master Nixon]

I don't know how this keeps getting repeated. The media has been much easier on Palin than they were on Obama or even his wife. Not so much an anti Obama thing either it was that they got lambasted for going off into the trivial.

How long did they go on about "why doesn't he wear a flag pin?" Is your memory so short that you can't remember from two months ago?

McCain crying that the media hates him doesn't make it so. If he didn't want a media frenzy then he shouldn't have picked a complete unknown as his VP.

If a political party's going to bash people for not wearing a stupid fucking flag pin, they better make goddamn sure their candidate wears one too. He didn't wear one at the convention, and he hasn't worn one in either debate. Why does John McCain hate America?

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've modded you Flamebait but not for the resons you may think I have. I typically find myself with more mod points then I know what to do with and I'm sick of the negative stereotype of Slashdot where anything Pro-Microsoft, Pro-Conservative or Pro-"Anything but hardcore liberal leftist POV" will be modded down, flamed and ignored. The mod points are distributed to people that most closely match the average /. reader. (At least as far as the servers can determine.) Therefore Slashdot moderator aren't a bunch of arrogant pricks sitting in their ivory tower rainign rewards and punishments according to some fantasy world view, their average Slashdot readers.

AC becasue of mod points(obviously)

Re:Taking one for the team.

[who knows my name]

sigh... if only regular expressions could be used in real life.
s/government/representative_of_the_people

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Score Whore]

I'm not talking about evidence in a court case. I'm talking about the fact that 4chan, and slate and other media outlets that took the time to look through her email account don't have any examples.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I agree that malice may not have been intended. However, that doesn't really matter. For people in positions like her's, using official email systems for official business is a nonoptional aspect of documentation and accountability. Failure to do so is, at best, incompetent neglect of duty, and at worst deliberate conspiracy to deceive the public. Maliciously doing this is worse than doing so nonmaliciously; but using official email for official business is a necessary part of the job. Not doing a necessary part of your job, even if it is totally without malice, is still bad.

I'm a sysadmin, if I failed to run backups properly, and data were lost, they wouldn't have to prove that I maliciously failed to do so in order for me to deserve to get fired. Simply not doing so is bad enough. Same for her.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[flyingsquid]

Given that numerous individuals -- who have enough ill will towards her that they were willing to break the law in order to influence the election process -- did not find a single example to present makes it seem likely that nothing wrong was done here.

You're missing the point. It's hardly surprising that no evidence was found, simply because she can delete anything she wants, whenever she wants, since its not an official email address. Let's just assume for a moment that she did email one of her staff with a message along the lines of, "Hey, thanks for helping me abuse the power of the governor's office to pursue grudges against my sister's ex-husband! Now I know why Nixon did what he did- abusing government power is awesome!"

As soon as the scandal started to erupt, she could just delete that email, and ask her staff to do the same. It's not just that the personal accounts are difficult to access, it's that you can magically 'lose' their contents, much as the White House did, and there are no backups.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Maxmin]

The account that got hacked was actually her personal Yahoo account, not one of the ones normally used for official business.

Some interesting news on this front: because Palin deleted her Yahoo email accounts, she may be up for destruction of evidence charges. Felony if true, up to four years in prison.

Shortly after the email account hack, Time revealed that the feds already had access to her Yahoo email accounts, as part of a federal investigation into Troopergate.

One shoe left to drop, and it's the big one. Hopefully we'll hear something about it during October, though it's quite plausible that the current DOJ may drag their feet well past election day.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

Whatever you or your employer decide is best in your position is fine. She happens to be an employee of the people of Alaska. Her communications are public record. Having a record of communications and decisions allows for accountability to her employers. If she doesn't like that, she can go work somewhere else.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[KGIII]

Just to be clear she is only an employee to the citizens of Alaska, not of "the citizens of the US." Some people forget this.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[thetoadwarrior]

Her state gets federal money so to be fair she is still accountable to everyone.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

It doesn't change the fact that it isn't, wasn't, and probably not even intended to be a way to skate around the "system."

If it came to light that Palin and her staff discussed avoiding archival as one of the benefits of using a non-government email system, would that change your opinion of the facts?

Re:Taking one for the team.

[konohitowa]

So you're saying that post-it notes and back-of-the-envelope scribblings are all archived? And that all conversations are recorded and archived? Really?!

Re:Taking one for the team.

[TubeSteak]

But what it does do is expose 'politics as usual' for her, all claims to maverick status are pretty much null and void now.

The partisans on the left will decry the lack of justice if nothing happens and the partisans on the right will decry the lack of justice if she is forced to do [whatever will make her look bad].

Most Republicans will not see this as revoking her "maverick" status.
To many it'll just be another partisan witch hunt, even though it's a bipartisan issue in Alaska.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

Try not to be obtuse. They don't record everything, but when you're governor, or in a similar position, you rely on documentation for all kinds of things because there's no way to keep it all straight in your head. Anyone doing business with the state will want documentation as well, as will most other officials, if only to cover themselves. So there will be plenty of official docs, memos, emails, etc. That's how business is done. People don't rely on memory or a handshake anymore. There's just too much going on for that.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[KGIII]

We'd like to think so but I don't think that's true. I'm not positive but, having read the articles, this is why it is being considered in the Alaska courts and not in the Federal courts.

Don't take this as support for Palin, I personally don't think she's fit to run a day care, never mind a country.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[konohitowa]

I wondered when the personal attacks would begin, but as it turns out I don't have to try because I'm not obtuse.

The point I'm trying to make is that email is considered to be incredibly golden. The primary reason being that it's trivial to record. Not because it should be considered golden. Treating it differently from other forms of casual communication is silly. The key problem may be that both casual and official communications are done by email and there's no way to tell the difference between them. A simple solution to that is to assume that all email is casual unless tagged in a particular way. Otherwise, people are going to become increasingly hesitant to use email, and that's a waste of time. It would be no different than if bugs were placed throughout a building with constant recording. That does nothing but instill a sense of fear in everyone.

Interestingly, in my work experience with multiple global corporations I have yet to see an email that was in and of itself legally binding at a corporate level or even at a low level. All of the official contractual letters, deliverables, etc. are clearly marked as such with contract numbers, signatures, etc. The same is true as employee conduct systems, performance reviews, and so forth. The emails are nothing but a convenient method for conveying information to multiple people. Chat and telecons count for the other large chunk of unofficial communications, and corporate retention systems are just beginning to get around to creating artifacts from chat.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[spun]

Dah, comrade, our evil plan to take over America is almost complete! Mwahahaha!

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

I don't really care if people start feeling hesitant to use email. It's either part of your job or it isn't. Public positions require accountability. If you don't like it, don't run for office. The governor has to document her decisions and interactions with the community and businesses, as well as with other officials. Whether she uses email or some less convenient method of documentation makes no difference. As long as the public record is preserved. We need more transparency in government, not less.

Businesses can do as they like, but any that are remotely concerned with security or accountability will require employees to use company email systems rather than their own personal accounts.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[iminplaya]

So if I collect social security, medicare, etc, I should have to report all my activities to the government? If I am in a position of public authority, yes.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[konohitowa]

Okay - so now you're back to saying that all of her communications are required to be a part of the public record. Which means that she's not allowed to communicate with anyone using anything other than systems that have retention in place.

Which is what got us to the question about sticky notes and other obviously facetious (well, apparently not as obvious as I would have thought) examples as to what should be archived. The question all comes back to why *all* email should be considered official and part of the public record. Does this mean that a stenographer has to attend all lunches where a public servant might discuss something other than personal matters? BTW - that was another facetious example - just in case I'm being too obtuse for you.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[iminplaya]

She happens to be an employee of the people of Alaska....If she doesn't like that, she can go work somewhere else.

Washington D.C. maybe?

Re:Taking one for the team.

[fugue]

Don't take this as support for Palin, I personally don't think she's fit to run a day care, never mind a country.

There's a difference? Wait--maybe I've been living in the USA for too long now... oops...

Wanna bikkit!

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sarah Palin on the other hand is an employee of the the citizens of the US (some people forget this) and as such she shouldn't be hiding things from us just as it's expected that any employee shouldn't be hiding official business from their employer.

So this means that the slashdot apologists will give a pass to the person who hacks into Obama's email accounts? Using the parent poster's same reasoning, as senator he is also an employee -- or does he only answer to God, these days?

Re:Taking one for the team.

[fbjon]

It's not a state-provided service, therefore she must either not use it for official business, or take care to preserve all email herself.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[stinerman]

He should be prosecuted under relevant laws for what he did. However, he unwittingly uncovered other illegal activity.

For that reason he is a reluctant hero (which I agree that "hero" was probably not the best word to use).

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

Alaskan law (and probably most state laws) seem to make exceptions for transient things like post-its. I'm not talking about that sort of thing. If people actually started using post-its for official communications, then maybe we'd start requiring some sort of archive for those as well. The point is to get documentation of the actions and decisions of those who we elect to serve in government. Accountability is essential.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[hrvatska]

Obama has been under intense media scrutiny for the last year. All of what you're bringing up was reported at various times. Do a search of the NY Times, I think you'll find that they reported on all of this previous to Obama being nominated.

Sarah Palin shows up out of the blue, with a little over two months until the election, and you're surprised the press is all over her, her family, and anyone that knew her since childhood? If that level of scrutiny is too much for her then she should not have agreed to be on the Republican ticket. As Gail Collins said in an opinion piece, "Palin has been pressing the line that people don't really know 'the real Barack Obama,' and who could make the argument better than a woman who we've already known for almost six weeks? Really, she's like one of the family."

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

So this means that the slashdot apologists will give a pass to the person who hacks into Obama's email accounts? Using the parent poster's same reasoning, as senator he is also an employee -- or does he only answer to God, these days?

He won't get a pass, and he shouldn't. What he did was extraordinarily dumb, and illegal. It was also not even necessary since Alaskans were already investigating her use of commercial accounts. None of that excuses Palin's use of a commercial account that circumvents the security and accountability of the state system either. They should both be held accountable for what they did.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Vexorian]

I admire this guy, getting arrested for hacking when you just figured out answering an obvious question with an answer was enough sure is like the ultimate success for a troll. The FBI got trolled!

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

Once again, the account that got hacked was not the account that she used for official email. The one that McLeod is referring to is gov.sarah@yahoo.com, not gov.palin@yahoo.com. You're correct that the hacking of her account was pointless. That's because Alaskans were already investigating the other account that she used for official business.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Registered Coward v2]

And 90% of what was said and written about Palin was untrue.

Perhaps, but that 90% is being written by Republicans in support of Palin.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Indeed, users of public email services, or any other email services, do not generally have any obligation to preserve emails. The issue is that Governors(among others) have a legal duty to adhere to various standards for handling documents pertaining to official business, which generally means preservation, compliance with FOIA requests, etc.

Among a governor's various duties is preservation of official records. If they fail to do that, there is a problem. If the behave in such a manner as would lead to their failing to do that, there is a problem. If they do so deliberately, there is a bigger problem.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Dan541]

This court ruling is so late they can't expect the emails to still exist!

I know allot of people who delete email as it's read to prevent this type of privacy violation.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Dan541]

I don't see what the big deal is, if somebody chooses not to use their work email for any reason they should be allowed to use their own.

I agree it would look less professional if the email address is posted on a government website but that's what email forwarding is for.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Miseph]

The big deal is that she is required by law, the very same law she has sworn to uphold as governor, to follow certain rules and regulations about how she conducts her business. Had she used her work e-mail, as it were, compliance would have been enforced server side and this would not be an issue, but she chose not to and then violated the rules. If she'd used Yahoo! and followed the rules there wouldn't be a problem (well, outside of Yahoo! mail being crap...), but she didn't follow them and now it IS a problem. She may choose whatever e-mail provider she wants, she MAY NOT choose to break the law.

And before somebody comes along with "well it's just her personal e-mail address, she probably didn't even think to" as a defense of doing this... the account names pretty obviously indicate she created them AFTER becoming governor, so it's not like these are legacy addresses. It's also not as if somebody held a gun to her head and made her run for and accept the office of governor of Alaska, if she didn't want to comply with these laws, all she needed to do was not take on a job which required her to follow them.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[ColdWetDog]

Dah, comrade, our evil plan to take over America is almost complete! Mwahahaha!

OK, it's yours.

Now what, smartypants?

Re:Taking one for the team.

[fishbowl]

>it's quite plausible that the current DOJ may drag their feet well past election day.

Sarah Palin will have no relevance to anything after that.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Maxmin]

Got any info on that?

Re:Taking one for the team.

[fishbowl]

>Can anyone actually cite a specific email from her Yahoo! account that would qualify as illegal

It seems that the FBI knows more than was disclosed to you, and that there is sufficient evidence to justify charges against the Governor.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[KGIII]

Oh great... Which life are you on now?

The Sweeper's one of my favorites. ;)

Re:Taking one for the team.

[fishbowl]

>Though the guy who accessed her emails might be in trouble

If he was smart enough to keep the jucier emails from the press, the charges might mysteriously disappear, and he might find himself under Secret Service protection as a witness in an impeachment hearing against the Vice President-Elect.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Maxmin]

None of this really means there was malice intended.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse, especially when you hold the highest office in your state, sworn to uphold *all* the laws of the land.

At the time that Palin was using her Yahoo accounts for govt business, she was also in the public record as knowing that activists were suing for access to her email.

Using private email accounts for public business is illegal in Alaska. Rather than deny this, surely she should be a big lady and step up to admit ... but it doesn't matter. The judge will ensure that the emails will come forth, unless Yahoo says "oops! we lost that backup tape..." like the current White House did.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[fishbowl]

>"why doesn't he wear a flag pin?"

I wouldn't stick a pin in the lapel of a $1600 Brooks Brothers suit either.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[fishbowl]

>Did you know about Ayers?

I knew about Ayers when he was pallin' around with Nancy Reagan, before the Reaganite Annenberg gave him $50 million. That was in the early 90s.

I laughed a lot when his name came up, because I already know he had as many Republican connections as Democrat.

 

Re:Taking one for the team.

[stephanruby]

Once again, the account that got hacked was not the account that she used for official email. The one that McLeod is referring to is gov.sarah@yahoo.com, not gov.palin@yahoo.com.

I don't know. If the email address had been truly personal, I would have expected her to use something like goodtimes.sarah@yahoo.com or sarah12345@yahoo.com. And if you put your official title inside your email address, you're only encouraging people who send you email (or receive email from you) to think of you in that capacity.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Walkingshark]

This is exactly the point. Our system was created by the people who might be punished, so when they made it they never built in any real accountability. In a rational world, just using a private, personal account for state buisiness would be enough to get her fired. In the same way, the "I do not recall" defense has become a staple of culture, especially in politics, to the point where it is pretty clear that anyone with memory problems as bad as, say, Alberto Gonzalez, should be fired immidiately and prevented from ever working for the public again. Accountability must be restored or in the long term the negative feedback will build until we end up having to go to war with ourselves to clean out the corruption. Its fucked up, but thats how it is.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Walkingshark]

Facts generally don't have much effect on someone who has outsourced their thinking to their tribal leader/shaman of choice.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Nefarious Wheel]

AN HERO is the correct chan term

Only if ye drop yer haiches, mate.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Walkingshark]

No, you are totally wrong. Your analogy is, frankly, total shit. When she is conducting buisiness relevant to her job, she is not some average citizen, she has obligations that come with her office to ensure that all official buisiness and communication is properly archived, which is why the taxpayers of Alaska fund an email system for her to use that has those archival functions built into it. You utterly fucking fail at being worth even the sum of your constituent organic molecules if you think it is ok for her to bypass the law. Without rule of law, there is only tyranny. Or maybe that is what you're after.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Walkingshark]

But... but... Clinton got a Blowjob!

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Walkingshark]

Actually, they found email related to official buisiness on her yahoo account. Sorry, I know I know, reality has a well known liberal bias.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Walkingshark]

Actually, a lot of that stuff IS saved. You'd really be surprised at how much of it gets shoved in a box and stored, and for very good reasons that have nothing to do with legal issues. It is of immense help to historians when they're reconstructing events to be able to look at that kind of stuff.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Walkingshark]

Socialized medicine and donuts for all!

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

This court ruling is so late they can't expect the emails to still exist!

I know allot of people who delete email as it's read to prevent this type of privacy violation.

It's not a privacy violation when it's part of your job. Her emails dealing with state business are part of the public record and, with certain exceptions, the public is allowed to have access to them. If she believes that those emails are exempt, then she can make that claim. A judge will make the final determination. She doesn't get to decide unilaterally what to make available.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[rtb61]

In this context where there clearly was a premeditated and planned intent to avoid the legal requirements of maintaining records of government correspondence. Their intent was to arrange a method of communications, that they could hide from the public, clearly their intent was criminal, as such the full weight of the law should be measured out, other wise they make a mockery of their own laws.

Underlying that is the enormous ego of creating your own personal governor for life email address on public web mail servers, really childish. In fact the whole episodes smacks of juvenile plots to deceive and hide the mischief that they clearly did intend. So in this case, it is actually worse than just deleting records, which as it turns out they have been deleted but, also it shows intent to create a illegal method of conducting government correspondence. Whilst the method was a rather simple and amateurish, it speaks largely of their incompetence and, does alter the nature of their criminal intent.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

I don't know. If the email address had been truly personal, I would have expected her to use something like goodtimes.sarah@yahoo.com or sarah12345@yahoo.com. And if you put your official title inside your email address, you're only encouraging people who send you email (or receive email from you) to think of you in that capacity.

Whether she used one or both accounts for official business, it was still wrong and possibly illegal. Given the evidence we've seen so far, it looks like she was just using the gov.sarah@yahoo.com address for state business. If they find any evidence that she used the other for state business, then they should check it too. I just haven't seen that evidence yet.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[uberjack]

I could've sworn it was milfalicious@yahoo.com - are your sources accurate?

Re:Taking one for the team.

[xstonedogx]

I can think of six or seven hundred thousand people who might disagree with you.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Shajenko42]

Really? I'm fairly sure I couldn't even NAME six or seven hundred thousand people.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[devman]

"Certainly he is a reluctant hero."

It actually just shows the mind-set of the people from the left.

Breaking the law = okay, as long as it is against the democratic party...which is scary if that same idea is applied to more situations..

I prefer to think of it as:

Someone violate government officials privacy. Outrageous.

Government violating your privacy. Patriot Act.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[2short]

"she is an ordinary citizen as well as a public office holder"

Yes, and if the emails pertain only to her acting as an "ordinary citizen", she doesn't have to keep them. If the emails pertain to official government business, which some of them clearly do, she is required by law to keep them.

The normal procedure would be to use her state-provided email for all official business, and something else for personal stuff. This keeps everything nicely segregated. The fact she has not done this could mean that she is intentionally evading the law, or that she is an idiot; but one should not jump to conclusions and neglect the possibility of both.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[passthecrackpipe]

There is a real difference between the accountability of a state provided system and the accountability of an elected official. It is a duty of the Governor to ensure that her actions and correspondence are capable of being audited, in much the same way that a business has the duty to ensure to provide a financial paper trail. This does not "set a precedence" in any way, shape or form. All the court has decided now is that this duty is bound to the Person, not the System this person uses, as is correct.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[vsync64]

The post you quoted was referring to the current Bush White House claiming to have lost emails as part of a botched Notes-to-Exchange migration, if I remember correctly. They suddenly noticed the missing messages after they were given a court order to produce them. No, it didn't get a lot of attention by the news media. But look! A black guy and a hot chick running for office! Let's have more popularity contests!

Re:Taking one for the team.

[innocent_white_lamb]

I can: John Smith, Mary Smith and James Johnson. (Should be at least 200,000 of each of those.)

Re:Taking one for the team.

[celle]

Alaska attacked by our enemies? They made a movie about it in the 80's starring Rock Hudson. Basically the premise was the soviets took over our pipeline to get us to drop a food embargo. It didn't end well.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[celle]

The DOJ is sure screwing it up trying to get Ted Stevens.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[mrchaotica]

Breaking the law = okay, as long as it is against the democratic party...

Quit being a partisan asshole! He would have been exactly equally "reluctantly heroic" if he'd done the same thing to Biden.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[hairyfeet]

Nice thought,and would be acceptable except for one thing: When one accepts the job one agrees to uphold that job under the law. One of the laws that she agreed to uphold as part of her acceptance of the job is the state of Alaska's accountability laws. So unless you wish to argue that she is so stupid as to not know there were such laws,even after members of her own party were accused of using the same tactic AND while being surrounded by legal advisers whom I'm sure would have pointed out any laws she didn't have absolute clarity on,then I think the arguement simply doesn't hold water.

Of course the answer is so much simpler. She wanted a way to conduct official business that wouldn't show up in the official record. She,like most politicians I'm betting,believed if she simply kept her communications out of official channels she could make anything she didn't want public go "poof" and disappear. Since it worked for Bush who knows? Might even work for her. Personally I'm betting with the economy tanking as hard as it is that it won't really matter what the Governor of Alaska did or didn't do with her email because we'll end up with President Obama and that will be that.

Although I DO think this shows bad leadership abilities on the part of McCain since it doesn't seem like he did anything to check the qualifications of his running mate other than choosing for gender. Considering how the republican party has been taken over by the religious right some time ago you think they could do better than a Governor whose last child may actually be her grandchild,whose underage daughter has pics all over the Internet with bottles of booze looking wasted and who is knocked up,and whom seems to have one skeleton after another in her closet. Of course this is the same John McCain who could run against his 2000 self and not have anything in common,so what do I know. Too bad Ron Paul wouldn't run as an independent since it would have been nice to have had an actual conservative for a change.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[bhiestand]

But what it does do is expose 'politics as usual' for her, all claims to maverick status are pretty much null and void now.

How do you figure? I'd say choosing to use a commercial email provider and moving away from govt-provided IT is pretty mavericky.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Kijori]

In a rational world, just using a private, personal account for state buisiness would be enough to get her fired.

Why would a "rational world" dole out a harsh punishment for an infraction regardless of the reasons behind it or the severity of the consequences? Surely a rational world would weigh up what actually happened, and if it was an accidental, innocent transgression with no real ill-effects would refrain from firing her? In other words they would make the punishment fit the crime, rather than applying the same treatment to every transgressor.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[RazzleDazzle]

I'm sure that the worst punishment she will receive will be a slap on the wrist, after all the president and his staff have already done far worse wrt to email hiding and nothing happened to them. But what it does do is expose 'politics as usual' for her, all claims to maverick status are pretty much null and void now.

If Obama wins the elections, no one will care about Palins transgressions as she disappears back into the obscurity that she came from. If McCain wins he will just pardon her and the events will drift into obscurity. Either way in 3 months this wont even hardly be even a fading memory to most people.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[CmdrGravy]

You're forgetting that the work she does is for the people, everything she does related to her work should be a matter of public record it's just that at present there is no real way to record all of that. We can easily record the e-mails she sends though so there is no reason not to do that.

You're making some distinction between private and public e-mails, the answer is simple if she keeps all her official e-mails on her official e-mail address. However if she chooses to conduct public business using other non accessible ( to the archivist ) e-mail addresses then shes clearly breaking the law for which she ought to be charged and imprisoned.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Schadrach]

But, what you are missing is that the leaked emails have at least the appearance of being used for government business. Alaska state law requires that she use the government supplied email address for government business, that it might be archived and made a matter of public record. To do so is a nonoptional part of the job, much like his sysadmin->backups example. She has explicitly gone out of her way to not do so, by setting up a third party account and using it for government business. Having a secondary account for personal use is not a crime in Alaska, but the moment it is used in any way to conduct Alaskan business, it is a violation of the law.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Schadrach]

To be more exact, one stupid fool from 4chan who is going to take one for the team (in more ways than one -- isn't he looking at 5 years + 3 supervised release + a large fine if convicted)

Re:Taking one for the team.

[jvkjvk]

Now the media is going to have a feeding frenzy because they FINALLY have something to try to stick on Governor Palin. If this had been Joe Biden doing this we would have never heard about it. In fact, reporters would be calling for the head of this 4channer on a pike while simultaneously scrambling to demonstrate that the e-mails were harmless/irrelevant/nonexistent.

This quote shows your Republican bias. Now at least you have a heaping of cognitive dissonance to stare at if you wish.

The facts are that it has been known that Gov. Palin has been using non-official email channels to conduct official business. An activist in Alaska was already suing to obtain more information about this. Oh, this happened well before the social engineering.

So, where was your media frenzy then? Where were all those media people "out to get" the Republican party when the story actually broke? Why didn't they take this and shoot it to national attention then?

I believe the answer to this question is that a FOIA or similar action simply isn't as sexy as a HAXXOR and that's why this got attention. Icing on the cake that it's a VP nominee instead of some other governor.

The reason it's gaining traction rather than dying out, OTH, is because she's the VP nominee and illegal activity appears to have taken place. Is it any wonder the media is more enthused? Should there not be a frenzy when the vp nominee of one of the parties almost certainly been engaging in illegal activities? I guess that's supposed to be in section c page 7.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[janrinok]

then shes clearly breaking the law for which she ought to be charged and imprisoned.

I'm reading this as someone from another country, and I am surprised. Yes, _if_ a law has been broken then she should be charged if that is believed to be the correct way of dealing with this 'offence'. I agree with you upto this point and then our paths diverge rapidly. The case should then come to court and the _degree_ of transgression should be ascertained. Any _mitigating_ factors should also be considered. Then, and only _if_ she is found guilty, an appropriate punishment should be awarded based upon the facts that have been ascertained during the court case. The punishment is _not_ automatically a custodial sentence. Your 'charged and imprisoned' statement seems to capture so much of what many of us view as the current American Illness - lets not worry about right and wrong, facts or allegations. The accusation that a crime has been committed should convince all that someone is guilty, no court case should be necessary, and any cruel but arbitrary punishment is therefore justified. We see it time and time again applied to music piracy, hacking, terrorism or any number of other offences.

If court cases automatically follow anyone being stopped for an alleged offence, then please do not come crying that the policeman should have simply given you a warning when you are caught doing 32 mph in a 30 zone. After all, you committed the offence. Next, lets not bother with the details of the case, lets immediately incarcerate you in prison. You committed the offence so, by your logic, the prison sentence must automatically follow. As we are not considering the nature of the offence we will just award an arbitrary duration of 100 years to ensure that those who have committed particularly heinous crimes are punished appropriately.

I understand what you might have been trying to say, but it is not what you actually said. I wonder if I can deduce your politics from your statement....?

Re:Taking one for the team.

[CmdrGravy]

I understand what you might have been trying to say, but it is not what you actually said. I wonder if I can deduce your politics from your statement....?

Be my guest although as you seem to have already, incorrectly, deduced that I am American or live in the US I am betting you'll probably be wrong ;-)

Re:Taking one for the team.

[janrinok]

In which case, I apologise both to you and to those Americans whose name I have taken in error. :-)

Re:Taking one for the team.

[overunderunderdone]

I don't know how this keeps getting repeated. The media has been much easier on Palin than they were on Obama or even his wife. Not so much an anti Obama thing either it was that they got lambasted for going off into the trivial.

I don't think any reasonable person can say that the media has been easier on Obama than Palin. Almost all of the coverage of Palin has been negative, most coverage of Obama has been positive. Since she was chosen as McCains running mate it's been an unending series of hit pieces to the degree that it has obscured rather than illuminated her record. The hit pieces are NOT unfair in themselves (there's plenty of legitimate complaints to make of her) it's that there's been no other reporting at all.

I think I can prove this point with a couple questions, see if the answers come to you without googling the answers: What hypothetical question did she pose to the head librarian in Wasilla? What job did Palin hold between being mayor of Wasilla and becoming governor, and why did she quit? I would bet that the majority of average news consumers can answer the first question, while not one in 10 can answer the second, despite the fact that the answer to the second question is the most significant political story about Palin explaining the foundation of her popularity and subsequent political success in Alaska, and that it is at least as revealing of her character and motivations as the first.

How long did they go on about "why doesn't he wear a flag pin?" Is your memory so short that you can't remember from two months ago?

Reporting on an opponents criticisms, and making criticisms yourself are somewhat different things. On those occasions where reporting negative stories about Obama has become unavoidable they've largely been written in the form of an apologia. Witness the NYtimes story on his associations with Ayers. Somehow I doubt Palin would have gotten the same "inconsequential crossed paths" treatment if an abortion clinic bomber had hosted a fundraiser for her and served with her on a charitable board.

McCain crying that the media hates him doesn't make it so.

He's only crying because he was a former media darling, he's feels betrayed. He had been the recipient of similarly fawning pieces that Obama now receives... I for one have no pity for him.

... If he didn't want a media frenzy then he shouldn't have picked a complete unknown as his VP.

That's a pretty damning admission of the myopia of the media. Palin has been a minor celebrity and rising star in the GOP since she beat Murkowski and Knowles. Her name had been out there as a possible (though admittedly dark horse) VP pick since before McCain won the nomination. It's inconceivable that the media would be as ignorant of an equivalent rising star in the Democratic party as they professed to be of Palin. Even granting their unaccountable ignorance of an up-and-coming politician in one of the two major parties that doesn't of itself explain or justify the unrelenting negative nature of the coverage. There are interesting and illuminating stories about Palin they aren't reporting and the only distinction I can see between those they report and those they choose not to appears to be whether of not they cast her in a positive light at all.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[AppyPappy]

Forget it. Just do what the White House does and lose the tapes periodically. Whoops. Sorry. What's done is done.

Anyway, who wants to read:

"Hey Monica, how about lunch? We'll eat in the Oval Office."
"Hey Cheney, how do I work this pen again?"
"Hey Bristol, I found your Promise Ring. It was in the back seat."

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

He should be prosecuted under relevant laws for what he did. However, he unwittingly uncovered other illegal activity.

For that reason he is a reluctant hero (which I agree that "hero" was probably not the best word to use).

He didn't uncover anything. Alaskans were already investigating her use of commercial accounts for official business. They already had boxes of emails from her aides sent to her Yahoo account. Not the one that got hacked, but another one. What he did was just stupid. Plain and simple.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[phlinn]

That would depend on the context. If they were trying to set up an address for personal messages, and were worried about having to store those personal messages and how it might be accomplished, then no it wouldn't really indicated they were trying to skate around the system. The only quote i've seen about them worrying about the access laws leaves out the context, making it something of a rorshach test.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[phlinn]

Which email, in particular, clearly pertains to government business? Wikileaks doesn't have anything dammning. Although, maybe it depends on how you define 'pertains'. Subject lines can be very misleading. If there is a personal email about how some bill is progressing, and it's largely personal complaints about whoever is balking, is that government business or not?

Re:Taking one for the team.

[phlinn]

Related to does not mean it was official business. For instance, any number of bills could have been fodder for campaign adds, she could be offering a personal opionion on some ass in the legislature or an appointed official who is balking. These are examples of things that are related to official business, but are not in fact official business themselves. All anyone has is subject lines. The only actual message content that has been revealed is clean. That doesn't mean she wasn't engaging in official business with her personal email account, merely that it is not proven.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[spun]

Mmmmm, socialized donuts...

Re:Taking one for the team.

[readin]

The big deal is that she is required by law, the very same law she has sworn to uphold as governor, to follow ...

Did you miss the Clinton years? That whole "swearing under oath" and "upholding the law" is so passe for people in executive office.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[2short]

"If there is a personal email about how some bill is progressing, and it's largely personal complaints about whoever is balking, is that government business or not?"

    The Governor is sending complaints about how a bill is progressing to someone involved enough to possibly care? How could that not be government business?

I don't know the language of the Alaskan governemnts email retention rules. But, for the reasons you mention, such rules tend to require retention based not on a "clearly pertains to" sort of standard, but a "could possibly be construed as related to". She was sending emails to and about subordinates and other people in the government.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[phlinn]

If that's the way it's written, it seems like a bad idea to me. It conflicts with rules against using government computers for campaign planning. Any success or failure of a bill is potential campaign fodder, and if you are talking with someone about the balking individual's competitor for an upcoming spot, then it "could possibly be construed as related to". Part of the issue is that the law tries to draw hard lines through a reality that's a lot more murky.

As further development to my previous hypothetical example, if Sarah were sending an email to Todd about how X is an ass, I really don't think it is government business. That's the level of personal message I was thinking of. If you shift the target from todd to one of her friends at work, I don't think it changes the basic nature of it.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Nefarious Wheel]

Ahh, truly I am an egg. Ich bin Ausland und ich spreche keine Bush. I could believe that both of Bush and of a Notes-to-Exchange migration, though. And you can pick deleted emails from the timestamp gaps as quickly as you can say Rose-Mary Woods. "What emails? I didn't receive any because I was at the beach that day". Heh heh...

Re:Taking one for the team.

[SL Baur]

Point: the trillion dollar subprime mess became the 60-trillion dollar financial catastrophe through a whole set of leveraging activities. Start blaming credit default swaps, netting, etc. for turning what could have been a contained problem into a cascading failure.

I do not think anyone recently (back to the Carter administration) involved with the US government is covered in glory on that one with the possible exception of Ron Paul.

I've found it extremely difficult to get enough info to properly train my BS filter. The last article I read used ~US$60T as the world capital base and ~US$683T as the total amount in the world derivatives market. Neither values corroborate with anything else I've read.

I'm pro liberty, pro economic freedom and privacy and there's no place for me in either the Republican or Democratic party of the US.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

And the difference between this and having a meeting at which you don't bother to keep minutes, or just talking about things over dinner or in the hallway is... what, exactly?

Sorry... this is a nonstory that partisan nutjobs are trying to drill into a story to deflect attention from the fact that they committed felony identity fraud in attacking her.

It's part of her job to make sure those emails are archived and secured. They are part of the public record. This was being investigated by Alaskans before the other account got hacked anyway, so you're wrong there too. Besides, who is "they"? One idiot kid hacked into her account, and even more retardedly, posted everything necessary to catch him online. But somehow that makes it a liberal conspiracy? Who's the nutjob again?

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

Which email, in particular, clearly pertains to government business? Wikileaks doesn't have anything dammning. Although, maybe it depends on how you define 'pertains'. Subject lines can be very misleading. If there is a personal email about how some bill is progressing, and it's largely personal complaints about whoever is balking, is that government business or not?

Her aides sent all emails to one of her Yahoo accounts (not the account that got hacked) rather than her state account. That alone proves it was being used for official business.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

Did you miss the Clinton years? That whole "swearing under oath" and "upholding the law" is so passe for people in executive office.

I miss them. I'm not a Clinton fan (either one of them), but the president getting impeached for lying about a blowjob is infinitely preferable to what we've gone through over the last 8 years.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

This is all about nothing. The emails the partisans are looking for would not be official, but the equivalent of a phone conversation (or disucssion) of politics, strategy, and such that would merely be used to embarass their political opponent. Does the State of Alaska require all State Phone conversations to be recorded? Do they record every meeting and every internal debate (beyond minutes)? Why not?

She doesn't get to decide what is public record and what isn't. That's up to a judge if she wants to dispute a request. Everything gets archived. That's how it works. Not even executive privilege or the other exemptions are absolute. They may or may not be applied based on the situation. Again, she doesn't get to make that call herself. She's an employee of the state, and must be accountable to the people. Her documented communications, be it meeting minutes, letters, memos, emails, etc., are public record. They must be treated as such.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[Danse]

As further development to my previous hypothetical example, if Sarah were sending an email to Todd about how X is an ass, I really don't think it is government business. That's the level of personal message I was thinking of. If you shift the target from todd to one of her friends at work, I don't think it changes the basic nature of it.

Which is why everything gets archived and then she can dispute the release of certain documents if she believes they fall under the exemptions. If the judge agrees, then they don't get released. Your example seems pretty clear-cut in that regard.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[tbannist]

That's not quite true. There were more qualified female conservative candidates. Palin was chosen because she's pretty, religious, conservative and against all of the traditional women's issues.

They figured with all the practice on Bush they could work around everything else. And as far as core republican voters are concerned she's just awesome. Of course, to anyone who watches anything either in addition or instead of Fox news, she's a complete disaster.

Re:Taking one for the team.

[JackieBrown]

You didn't do very well.

I see 70 % overrated and 30 % underrated.

No flamebait.

Like hell she will...

[Darundal]

...she will claim that the emails were already deleted, either by her, the "hacker," or by Yahoo.

Re:Like hell she will...

[commodoresloat]

Or she'll just claim the emails say the exact opposite of what they actually say, just like she did with the troopergate report.

Re:Like hell she will...

[Azarael]

Until Yahoo gets subpoenaed to pull the email off of the back ups that they haven't deleted yet. Anyway, you could make a strong argument that given the circumstances, deleting the email would be considered destruction of evidence, which a US court _could_ hit you for.

Re:Like hell she will...

[Coopjust]

I'm sure that Yahoo keeps some form of backups, and if they are court ordered to preserve those backups, they will. I've read several stories stating that deleted emails on Gmail are kept for months later in backups.

I'm sure that the emails are still being kept in their entirety, or close to it, somewhere at Yahoo.

Re:Like hell she will...

[CarneAzada]

Yahoo doesn't delete emails unless they're in the Spam folder for a certain amount of time. Maybe she'll claim her emails "accidentally" got moved to her Spam folder and that she "forgot" about them being in there.

Re:Like hell she will...

[rossz]

Buried in the troopergate report is a sentence that says what she did was within her constitutional powers. The ethics law she supposedly violated is written so broadly that ordering lunch could be a violation. Basically, any decision made is considered a violation if it makes you happy.

Anyone else in her position would have done the same thing, so I won't fault her for that. Her politics, on the other hand, are way too religiously conservative for my taste.

Re:Like hell she will...

[boxfetish]

Buried in the troopergate report is a sentence that says what she did was within her constitutional powers. The ethics law she supposedly violated is written so broadly that ordering lunch could be a violation. Basically, any decision made is considered a violation if it makes you happy.

If this were true then why wouldn't the Republican majority which allowed this investigation block it? If it is so broad as to be ripe for being abused, don't you think they would have stopped this?

Re:Like hell she will...

[rossz]

The report was written by one person who was selected by a Democrat who is a major foe of Palin. Calling it a "committee report" is a fallacy. My guess as to why the report was released. The conclusion was so mild and NOT damning that they saw less harm in releasing it than from blocking it. Considering the one-sidedness of the news reporting this election, the headlines would have read, "Republicans Bury Damning Report!" Followed by all kinds of far-fetched guesses as to its content.

This is really a non-issue that the news is trying to turn into a big deal.

Re:Like hell she will...

[pease1]

The old boy repub's in AK have no love for her. She was in a catch 22 on this anyway. About now the drive by media and liberal ./'ers would be raking her over the coals if she HADN'T taken any action against a state trooper who had tazed her 10 year step son. Screwed either way. After all, we DO all remember the pols who tazed that guy at a Kerry speech and how horrible, awful and hitler youth it was, right? And that was just a college age jerk.

Re:Like hell she will...

[Anonymous Coward]

...if she HADN'T taken any action against a state trooper who had tazed her 10 year step son. Screwed either way. After all, we DO all remember the pols who tazed that guy at a Kerry speech and how horrible, awful and hitler youth it was, right?

Here's what wikipedia has to say about the stepson tazing:

Wooten was also found to have violated department policy in using a Taser on his then 11-year old stepson in 2003. He told investigators that he did so "in a training capacity" after the child had asked to be tased. In a September 2008 newspaper interview, Wooten said that he set the Taser to "test" mode, meaning that it was on low power.[30][31] In a statement to police, the boy said "he wanted to be tased to show that he's not a mommy's boy in front of Bristol [his cousin, Palin's daughter]. Following being tased he went upstairs to tell his mother that he was fine."[17] In a statement to police, Molly McCann said "she was up stairs giving a bath to the kids ⦠Mike was going to show Payton what it feels like and she told Mike that he better not."[17] According to Molly's account, she remained upstairs during the incident.

Following some of the links to the actual news articles, it appears that the trooper in question, Mike Wooten, had his stepson lie on the floor surrounded by pillows and clipped the taser leads to his stepson's shirt and gave his stepson a brief pulse on the lowest setting.

IMHO, tasing your stepson, even if he begs for it, isn't exactly a smart thing to do. Having said that, it's interesting that Palin supporters mention the tasing in a way that implies something much worse.

Re:Like hell she will...

[Phroggy]

I had Yahoo! email crap out on me once and delete all of my messages. I had like over 900, so it's not like I clicked that check mark in the top and hit delete. I emailed customer support 3 days later because I figured it might have been a mail server error, but they're like "Oh no, they're lost. We're not sorry, but if you like to tell us a time within the last *24 hours* we can restore it to then." Seeing as how it was 3 days prior, I didn't get my email back.

That just means their customer service people have a tool that lets them do it automatically within 24 hours. It doesn't mean that their system administrators, when given a court order, can't recover from a backup taken a month ago.

Of course I don't normally keep backups for longer than a week on my own servers, so who knows?

Re:Like hell she will...

[smashin234]

Its not that tasing your stepson is not smart, its the fact that it shows he is irresponsible. Even on the lowest setting tasing has proven to be dangerous and even more so for the young or old. The child had no legal right to request it, and is protected by the law for a reason. This fits in with our sex laws and the old age of consent yadiyadi.

Its a shame that an officer of the law was the one who actually did this test, as he has sworn to uphold the law, and testing devices on children even on their lowest setting is not something a law officer should ever do. And on your own kid? Thats just reckless.

Now I am not going to comment on the favorite Governer atm, but from the standpoint of the cop, he should have known better and yes, he should have been fired immediatly.

Re:Like hell she will...

[Danse]

Anyone else in her position would have done the same thing, so I won't fault her for that. Her politics, on the other hand, are way too religiously conservative for my taste.

That's probably true. But they'd also have to deal with the consequences of using their power for personal reasons. Maybe it was worth it to her. If I felt my family was threatened, I would have done it too. Doesn't mean that I'd get to keep my job though. People that aren't in her position don't have the ability to handle things the way she did. Being governor doesn't give her any special privilege to do so either.

Re:Like hell she will...

[tbannist]

The problem has less to do with the fact that she has the power to fire the guy who displeased her and more to with the fact that she used that power over something as petty and meaningless as this.

And it's part of a pattern of cronyism and petty high school level politics. Which, I suppose isn't terribly surprising because her government is studded with people from her high school who have been appointed to positions with which they have no expertise or experience. She appointed a friend to be in charge of an agriculture board because she "has liked cows since she was a little girl". She has repeatedly fired people for such indignities as not supporting her enough and, heaven forbid, disagreeing with her.

Oh right

[commodoresloat]

That will put an end to hearing about her in the media I'm sure...

Gmail

[Bicx]

She should just go with Gmail. Google will save her information whether she likes it or not.

Taking bets

[Drakin020]

What do you want to bet she went ahead and cleared out any potentially incriminating emails?

I wonder if Yahoo would be able to retrieve it or if they would even have to.

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the last chance for America to prove it's not totally made up of braindead, religious, nutbag trailer trash. If the GOP steals this one, too..I'm moving to Canada.

It's not Flamebait if it's TRUE. Mod up parent.

[Anonymous Coward]

I take it the neocons and confused Republicans are out in full force modding today.

Mccain can't even check e-mail, and she used a fucking Yahoo account to do official business.

I wouldn't even do my personal business over Yahoo.

Re:It's not Flamebait if it's TRUE. Mod up parent.

[Doctor_Jest]

Horseshit... flamebait and trolls are the same no matter what side you fall on.

And we clearly can see where YOU fall on, Mr. Anon.

Re:It's not Flamebait if it's TRUE. Mod up parent.

[volcanopele]

And it isn't insightful if it is non-sense. So it is a wash.

Re:It's not Flamebait if it's TRUE. Mod up parent.

[SL Baur]

Mccain can't even check e-mail, and she used a fucking Yahoo account to do official business.

McCain, scum sucking typical Washington DC politician swine that he is, cannot check email because he was tortured as a POW and does not have full mobility of his arms and is unable to use a computer. That he cannot check his email is the fault of deficient handicapped person accessibility software. That's not *his* fault, it's Microsoft's fault. Or maybe our fault for not picking up the ball and doing an Open Sourced voice recognition input system.

I'm kind of wary regarding accessibility software though. I got nothing but grief trying to push in TV Ramen's Emacspeak into XEmacs.

Re:It's not Flamebait if it's TRUE. Mod up parent.

[blackest_k]

While not disparaging McCain and what he endured as a POW, he isn't Stephen Hawking either (as a fairly extreme example).

There are options open to disabled computer users. The more likely reason is its technology he never grew up with and has no interest in pursuing. If you don't like computers hate the unknown and have battled a PC and lost (hours of work) why bother.

Re:It's not Flamebait if it's TRUE. Mod up parent.

[SL Baur]

The more likely reason is its technology he never grew up with and has no interest in pursuing.

This is not a debate.

I was not tortured, but I was rear-ended at high speed by a drunk driver a decade and a half ago. I cannot sit at a desk and type at a computer for more than 10 or 20 minutes without intense pain.

And you sir, are a major league idiot.

Re:It's not Flamebait if it's TRUE. Mod up parent.

[philspear]

I take it the neocons and confused Republicans are out in full force modding today.

Yeah, and I recently got modded down for mentioning something the Paulites didn't like. I haven't gotten mod points in months. CONSPIRACY! An anti-left conspiracy!

Re:It's not Flamebait if it's TRUE. Mod up parent.

[GaryPatterson]

McCain ... cannot check email because he was tortured as a POW and does not have full mobility of his arms and is unable to use a computer.

I understood that he's unable to lift his arms above his head, but has reasonable mobility below that. He can certainly write in a notebook, as we saw in the recent debate.

Given that, it seems more likely that the reason he can't use a computer is more in line with his age and that "old dog, new tricks" thing.

I don't think this matters at all though. Plenty of people don't care to use computers, and while that's odd to us, there's nothing wrong with it.

Re:It's not Flamebait if it's TRUE. Mod up parent.

[SL Baur]

Plenty of people don't care to use computers, and while that's odd to us, there's nothing wrong with it.

My late father was one of those people. Still, we spent many hours in discussion where he asked about computers and tried to learn from me. I helped him computerize his practice in the mid 1980s, but I do not think he ever did his own email.

And I agree, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Sooper secret email address !!! omgroflcopter!!1

[gandhi_2]

She set up email addresses known only to her husband? How heinous!

The super-secret one that got haxored? gov.palin@yahoo.com

Will the right-wing treachery know no bounds?

Saving the emails is irrelevant

[GISGEOLOGYGEEK]

Why would Palin care to delete any emails, or even try to hide them?

Palin is a young earth creationist. She has no understanding of Evidence.

Re:Saving the emails is irrelevant

[Anonymous Coward]

Those emails were put there by GOP to test our faith.

Re:Saving the emails is irrelevant

[philspear]

As a young earth creationist, I'm offended and also confused by all those words.

Re:Saving the emails is irrelevant

[GISGEOLOGYGEEK]

My comment has been moderated 5 times so far ... 4 Funny, 1 Troll

Apparently 1 out of 5 Slashdot Moderators is a brainwashed god loving fool! hahahahaha

Wait, she had private email...

[kenh]

She had private email, known only to her husband and children? OMG!

She should absolutely use her official email for all correspondence, including campaign and private (non-government) correspondence... Except, oh yeah, the acceptable usage policies of the Alaskan government forbid the use of government computers for personal and campaign uses...

This woman is out of control and must be stopped - she has to break the law like the rest of us do, then we can get her for that!

Re:Wait, she had private email...

[stinerman]

Good sir Ken,

The problem is that she used the personal email for official correspondence, which is not all that legal.

The personal account is required for campaign and private correspondence.

HTH

Re:Wait, she had private email...

[cliffski]

you missed out the words "and officials".
is this the same woman who apparently pressured a state employee to sack someone to keep her relatives happy?
but apparently she can see russia from her house, so its fine...

Re:Wait, she had private email...

[EastCoastSurfer]

is this the same woman who apparently pressured a state employee to sack someone to keep her relatives happy?

I'm not defending her at all, but this sort of cronyism happens all the time. Boards and CEOs, politicians, kids and their parents, police, etc... If this sort of thing bothers you that much then there probably isn't anyone left that you can, in good conscience, vote for. This country is in a sad state of affairs and in all reality neither candidate that we've been given the choice between is going to fix anything.

Re:Wait, she had private email...

[thetoadwarrior]

Husband children and close aides.

Selective reading clearly shows someone's bias...or lack of comprehension. ;)

Re:Wait, she had private email...

[gmack]

Except if I do this as a business owner I pay the price in lost profits or efficiency. If I do this as a government official then the cost gets passed on to the taxpayers.

This sort of thing needs to be punished wherever it's found and "everyone does it" is just not an excuse.

Re:Wait, she had private email...

[EastCoastSurfer]

This sort of thing needs to be punished wherever it's found and "everyone does it" is just not an excuse.

I'm with you here. Lets start with a full investigation into Obama and his various real estate dealings with Resco. Next we can take a look at Clinton and the crooks he pardoned his last day in office. Bush has plenty of his own dealings we can investigate further also.

Re:Wait, she had private email...

[Asic Eng]

Except, oh yeah, the acceptable usage policies of the Alaskan government forbid the use of government computers for personal and campaign uses...

Slightly off-topic, but don't you guys think that the amount of restrictions placed on politicians are a bit over the top? I mean obviously government officials need to obey the law, no arguing with that. And if I understand correctly, in this case she's not actually denying that she's been sidestepping the law?

So just looking at the hypothetical case that she'd been using government email for private use. Let's say she writes to her husband - who might also be her aide, and it's about a political topic. Towards the end she asks him something about her kids - and then she's broken the law? Seems a bit absurd - what's the cost to the state there, less than a 100th of a cent? I recall that during Gore's candidacy, he was attacked once because he'd used a campaign-funded phone card, for a campaign-oriented call, but with a government-owned phone. Again, seems absurdly petty to even discuss something like that.

I think there is a danger of giving politicians so little leeway, that no reasonable person can act politically without breaking the law. This just gets everybody used to the idea that it's unavoidable to do so.

Re:Wait, she had private email...

[Walkingshark]

I was waiting for the "But Clinton ________!" defense to come out. No matter what you're talking about, if someone with an R next to their name did something wrong they will always trot out the "But Clinton got a blowjob" or some variation on it. Fucking pathetic.

Re:Wait, she had private email...

[GaryPatterson]

That would be an excellent start. Get it *all* out - Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton, Bush Jr, Al Gore, Cheney, Rumsfeld... expose *all* the lies and secrets. Prosecute the guilty and ensure that their crimes are recorded accurately into history.

If that actually happened, US politics would be infinitely better for it. Even better if transparency was rigorously enforced from now on, through exposing issues like this email thing.

Re:Wait, she had private email...

[EastCoastSurfer]

Who cares if Clinton got a BJ. He and Hilary both have a lot of other skeletons in their closets. What I'm saying is that they all do from both parties. If Palin using a personal email account for gov. business and using her influence to get someone fired pisses you off, then be consistent in your views to everyone across all parties. If you do that you quickly realize that few if any elected officials would be people you could vote for.

Both sides are full of hypocrites and it makes me sick. The only way a change can occur is if everyone wakes up and quits thinking their 'side' is the best (b/c it sure as hell isn't much different than the other 'side').

Re:Wait, she had private email...

[tbannist]

I'm just not sure where you got the "everybody does this" part. As far as I know, it's mostly the Republicans who have been appointing unqualified friends into positions of power and firing people who upset them.

Please feel free to provide some evidence that the Clinton administration engaged in similar behaviour.

Privacy

[Haoie]

Not that I'm for the ditz, but isn't everyone entitled to their privacy? Even online.

As in, being free to delete whatever non-work emails come to you.

Re:Privacy

[Danse]

Not that I'm for the ditz, but isn't everyone entitled to their privacy? Even online.

As in, being free to delete whatever non-work emails come to you.

The problem is that she was using a commercial account for state business, which circumvents the security and accountability of using official state email services. She essentially made state business subject to Yahoo's terms of service rather than the laws of Alaska. Her official email is supposed to be public record, but the state can't access or archive her commercial account.

Re:Privacy

[CarneAzada]

Who uses a Yahoo account for their work email address? I thought most work email addresses were with whatever company you're working for, or in Palin's case, the Alaska state government. Although I could be wrong...

Re:Privacy

[thetoadwarrior]

Duh, of course that's not her work address. Hence the reason she shouldn't have been doing business on a Yahoo account.

Re:Privacy

[TheRaven64]

No. Private individuals are entitled to privacy. Elected officials are not. Now, most elected officials are also private individuals, but they should keep these roles separate and only receive the right to privacy when not conducting official business.

Re:Privacy

[CarneAzada]

I'm saying! She obviously was using a Yahoo account for her work address. I was replying to the post about "Privacy" which now doesn't really make a lot of sense. Deleting whatever non-work emails come her way? But all the emails they want to see would be pertaining to work, right?

Re:Sooper secret email address !!! omgroflcopter!!

[cliffski]

why is a government employee sending emails on govt business through a free email account?
Why are taxpayers paying for the states computer infrastructure if she isn't using it?
Of course something dodgy is going on.

great

[nomadic]

Now can the Court issue an injunction barring her from using that ridiculously fake and obnoxious accent?

Re:great

[commodoresloat]

Oh you betcha they can!

Re:great

[n dot l]

Only if they also bar the wink.

Re:great

[deniable]

Is it just me or does she sound like the principal from South Park?

Re:great

[Walkingshark]

I was thinking more Ralph Wiggum from The Simpsons.

Re:Sooper secret email address !!! omgroflcopter!!

[Ieatsyou]

She set up email addresses known only to her husband? How heinous!

The super-secret one that got haxored? gov.palin@yahoo.com

Will the right-wing treachery know no bounds?

michael moore's latest film. I can see it now; "Palin-gate and how it raped our country"

Re:Sooper secret email address !!! omgroflcopter!!

[Derling Whirvish]

why is a government employee sending emails on govt business through a free email account?

Because it's illegal to send campaign messages, partisan political messages, or e-mails dealing with RNC activities through a government account.

Re:Sooper secret email address !!! omgroflcopter!!

[Danse]

They've already seen boxes of emails from her aides to her Yahoo account. In fact, all but one email was sent to her gov.sarah@Yahoo.com account. That's the account she used for state business. It's not the account that got hacked.

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[CRCulver]

If the GOP steals this one, too..I'm moving to Canada.

Why do you hate freedom?

Heard that before.

[markdowling]

In 2000, 2004...

www.cic.gc.ca

Go on, I dare you.

Re:Heard that before.

[plasmacutter]

In 2000, 2004...

www.cic.gc.ca

Go on, I dare you.

i've been looking at it.

I'm fresh off the podium though, they want people more advanced in their careers with proven economic self-sufficiency.

Re:Heard that before.

[rs79]

Not in the hydroponics industry.

Re:Heard that before.

[plasmacutter]

Not in the hydroponics industry.

I'm a bit too sentient to be a potted plant, and I don't respond well when fed nitrate based fertilizer pellets : P

(seriously though, if you know a good field to aim for 2-3 years down the road, I am NOT an american anymore.. i just live here)

yeah

[someone1234]

Emphasis is on NON-WORK
Apparently she used the yahoo box for work too.
I wasn't sure about this earlier, but the court must be able to tell apart work from private mail.

Will any of our votes even count?

[Anonymous Coward]

The electronic voting machines are even dumber and will do as their masters tell them. If anyone at Diebold etc should happen to have the hots for Palin then maybe you should start packing now. Any discretions in the polls will simply be blamed on the Bradley Effect. The side effects of such could prove most interesting.

Why is this bad?

[darkfnord23]

I despise Palin, and it's hilarious that someone got in just by guessing her 'security' questions, but why is the secret email with other officials bad? Shouldn't secret communications always be an option? She could have just had meetings in closed conference rooms, what's the difference if it's done over the 'net?

Re:Why is this bad?

[dkleinsc]

Shouldn't secret communications always be an option?

No, it shouldn't be. Not when a public official is acting in their official capacity. If it's not classified enough so that Yahoo mail wouldn't be a security breach, it's not so classified that the public shouldn't know about it.

And no, I don't buy into the theory that advisers give better advice if the know that the public won't know what they say.

Re:Why is this bad?

[thetoadwarrior]

Gee golly, that stuff about Guantanamo Bay just didn't need to be known for us honest simple god loving folk. Gosh darnit learning about water boarding has put our country at risk!

Hopefully we'll get good old secret police to operate on their own terms and put this here country back in shape.

Re:Why is this bad?

[TheRaven64]

There are two kind s of secret. There is private correspondence, and there are official secrets. If something is an official secret then it is (in theory) against the interests of the population for it to be generally known. As such, it should never be on a non-government computer (with the exception of some owned by security-cleared contractors). If it's private correspondence, then she has the right to privacy but, by definition, it is not related to her job as governor.

Re:Why is this bad?

[ColdWetDog]

Alaska has pretty strict "Sunshine Laws". Since she was clearly acting in her "official capacity" (see the headers on the emails a bit above), it's pretty clear that she is in violation of the state laws.

I sit on a couple of local Boards (in Alaska) and we are constantly reminded by the Borough counsel about inadvertently getting afoul of the act. It's a Big Deal around here (just goes to show you that not much else is going on, I suppose). She had to know what she was doing was wrong.

More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[EtherealFlaim]

Not only was she stupid enough to have her yahoo account password resettable by an outsider, she was stupid enough to conduct state business on this and other non-state-secured e-mail accounts.

I'm sorry, but anyone who doesn't realize that in order to be safe it ALWAYS important to assume that your emails are immediately and fully in the hands of your worst enemies is hopelessly naive. Besides the sketchily legal issue of conducting state business over unsecure email, she also copied her husband on some of it.

Seriously Palin? Talk about it over the dinner table. Sending the email to your hubbie sends it over unsecure servers in the internet proper where they could be read in transit by any number of unruly or dangerous individuals. And that's assuming that she was sending it from a state-secured email on state-secured servers, which she obviously didn't at least some of the time.

The scary part now is that if she were to pull the same stuff in the whitehouse, there would be terrorists and spies trying to get ahold of national secrets, not just the inner workings of a state government. And I think we can all agree that the resources they have at their disposal are frightening.

I'm much happier with her gambling with Alaskan politics than National Security.

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[phanboy_iv]

Unfortunately, I suspect that the vast majority of Americans on the internet are indeed this naive, Palin is just a highly visible example. Sad, but true.

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[myowntrueself]

She is extremely photogenic and has a beautiful smile with even, white teeth.

Do you REALLY think that the majority of Americans are going to be able to see past that?

I don't.

Palin will win the election for McCain.

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[Doctor_Jest]

Well, when Joe Biden said Roosevelt got on TV to reassure Americans... I suspect we are surrounded by morons...

it's all in what you choose to ignore....

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[Doctor_Jest]

Do you really think the majority of americans can see past the other side's sugar-coated lies either? Dare I say it, the lesser of two evils is NEITHER candidate. Biden's a plagiarist, a career liar, and the biggest moron from the tiniest state... Palin's a moron from Alaska... Obama's a huckster with ties to the very problem we're in now (google is your friend), and McCain is a dumbass.

If either candidate wins, WE ALL LOSE. It's that goddamned simple... but leave it to the apologists to somehow paint Obama as actually GOOD for something. The same holds true for the other side of the aisle.

If you believe that Obama's good for this country, you're as stupid as the people who believe McCain's good for this country.

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[myowntrueself]

If either candidate wins, WE ALL LOSE. It's that goddamned simple... but leave it to the apologists to somehow paint Obama as actually GOOD for something. The same holds true for the other side of the aisle.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me guess. Still bitter about Ron Paul?

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[Creepy Crawler]

It's just like the tag-line for that bad movie- Alien vs. Predator.

Whoever wins, we lose.

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[Doctor_Jest]

It WASN'T on TV. It was a RADIO speech. The famous "fear itself" speech. Don't apologize for stupidity!

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't the Bush 43 admin bypass the White House e-mail system by using "personal" e-mail accounts?

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[crazyvas]

Not only was she stupid enough to have her yahoo account password resettable by an outsider, she was stupid enough to

She's not to blame. All her knowledge about teh inter-tubes came from the beloved Alaskan state senator

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[Doctor_Jest]

I would rather live in a world where the government works for the people, not the corporations. I also would like to live in a world where the government is not the monstrous and monolithic maternal figure it is today. I want the government to realize it is we the people who provide them with power and can take it away at any moment. I also want to live in a world where the government isn't the solution to any problem... WE are. I believe that Obama's "plans" (as much as you can discern "plan" from rhetoric in either campaign), just like McCain's are nothing more than a government power-grab to solidify its stranglehold on individual liberty.

The solution is to show them at the voting booth who is boss. Obama feels he "knows best"... and that is more frightening than 100 wars. I don't need a father/mother figure... I need the government to do its constitutionally provisioned job and leave the rest alone. We're never going to get that with the current one-party system. And that is frustrating...

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[Uberbah]

Yes, everyone knows Biden has a large disconnect between his brain and his mouth, but that's not remotely in the same league as Palin, who's brain doesn't have anything to pass to her mouth in the first place.

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[Uberbah]

Do you really think the majority of americans can see past the other side's sugar-coated lies either?

Which ones, exactly.

Biden's a plagiarist

Wow, you have anything newer than something that happened 20 years ago? And even then, it was plagarism through negligence rather than intent - he'd quoted the passage in question before with citations and then got sloppy.

Obama's a huckster with ties to the very problem we're in now (google is your friend)

You mean the right wing smears? And you were complaining about lies...

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[magus_melchior]

"I'm sorry, but anyone who doesn't realize that in order to be safe it ALWAYS important to assume that your emails are immediately and fully in the hands of your worst enemies is hopelessly naive."

I'd rather that as much correspondence of public officials remain, well, public.

Why? Two words: Dick Cheney.

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[Doctor_Jest]

He ALMOST GOT kicked out of LAW SCHOOL. How can you dismiss that shit? Oh, I know... an Obama apologist.

Lemme tell you, hold on to your ass if your pal wins... I'd say that about McCain, but it looks like he's not gonna make it. Obama was the 2nd biggest recipient of Fannie Mae donations... fact. If you think the PAC associated with that donation stream did it out of love and aren't trying to buy influence, I've got some coastal property in Kansas to sell you. Guess who's gotten us into the Subprime mess? Check the NYT in 1999... oh, it's CLINTON's administration. Man, who'd a thunk it? See through the distortion field yet? If you're still an Obama supporter, I guess not. (That goes for McCain as well... in spite of your assumptions.)

Obama has "change" we don't need. People jumping on this bandwagon are as sheep-like as those who voted for Bush a 2nd time. Funny thing is, unless the end of the world comes between now and 2012, there'll be a litany of people like you excusing, passing the buck, and basically ignoring the failure of your vaunted messiah Obama. I've been on the sidelines watching this fiasco for far too long... I'm officially tired of hearing the cheer-fest for "liar #1" as I like to call him. It's the same shit, different suit. But people will still believe the bogus lines and soundbytes... and we'll be here 4 years from now wondering WTF? Or spending time like the Bushites blaming everyone else for Obama's giant clusterfuck. (Or if by some weird cosmic event, McCain's)

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[Doctor_Jest]

yeah, that someone didn't shut him up sooner so his fiasco of a campaign wouldn't cement the 1 party system by labeling 3rd parties as fucking kooks or worshipers of Ralph Nader.

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[tbannist]

[[Citation Needed]]

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[Doctor_Jest]

Look it up yourself. I'm not your personal assistant. :-)

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[tbannist]

That's ok, if you can't be bothered to back up your claims with actual evidence, I'm just not going to believe you.

Re:More reasons Palin isn't ready for VP...

[Doctor_Jest]

I bet you really enjoy watching the news, don't you?

Next time tell that to Katie Couric.

Oh my

[FornaxChemica]

Sarah Palin, her husband, and officials had set up email accounts known only to each other.

sarah_for_vp@hotmail.com

Re:Sooper secret email address !!! omgroflcopter!!

[thetoadwarrior]

Yeah the draft letter to Schwarzenegger and emails to the Alaskan Department of Safety don't prove anything.

I'm not sure what you expect to find. She wasn't trading child porn. The whole point is no matter what you're talking about if it's business then it has to be backed up. It's already been proven she's not done that to anyone that has shown the slightest interest in this story.

I wonder if...

[Brad1138]

that's what McCain meant by "Fellow Prisoners"?

Re:Sooper secret email address !!! omgroflcopter!!

[Danse]

I don't know why everyone thinks "specific email" means "news article".

The fact that the judge has ordered her to save her emails should be rather telling. He/she wants ACTUAL text from these emails to determine if she's actually done anything unlawful. This order does not prove that she has done anything wrong. Everybody else should want the same standard of proof because "I read it in a news article" simply isn't good enough.

Nobody, not even Palin, is denying that she used the commercial account for state business.

Re:Sooper secret email address !!! omgroflcopter!!

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Can you please show us a specific e-mail that proves she was conducting government business via a free email service?

Seriously, there are plenty of legitimate criticisms to level at this woman, and this is not one of them. There is no proof.

While there is no proof per se, there is extremely incriminating evidence already available thanks to the so-called 'punk' who is under indictment.
Here is a summary of subject lines and correspondents from said 'personal' account as reported on wikileaks.
Some people have tried to argue that these are not incriminating, some people see pink elephants too.

Subject: Draft letter to Governor Schwarzenegger / Container Tax
From: Ruaro, Randall P (Deputy Chief of Staff)

Subject: FW: Motor Fuel Tax Suspension
From: Meghan Stapleton (Press Secretary)

Subject: RE: Using Royalty Oil to Lower the Cost of Fuel for Alaskans
From: Nizich, Michael A (Chief of Staff)

Subject: Court of Appeals / Executive Director Parole Board / Boards and Commissions
From: Ruaro, Randall P (Deputy Chief of Staff)

Subject: RE: Please approve
From: Ruaro, Randall P (Deputy Chief of Staff)

Subject: Rural Wireless Service
From: McBride, Rhonda (Rural Advisor)

Subject: FW: DPS Employee Draft
From: Ruaro, Randall P (Deputy Chief of Staff)

Subject: Re: DPS Personnel and Budget Issues
From: McAllister, William D (Communciations Director)

Subject: FW: DPS Personnel and Budget Issues
From: Ruaro, Randall P (Deputy Chief of Staff)

Subject: Court of Appeals Nominations
From: Ruaro, Randall P (Deputy Chief of Staff)

Subject: another records request
From: Nizich, Michael A (Chief of Staff)

Subject: RE: Scheduling - Week of 08.10.08
From: Mason, Janice L (Scheduling Assistant

Subject: FW: Capitalizing on coal reserves, Crow Tribe strikes deal for $7B
From: Nizich, Michael A (Chief of Staff)

Subject: Status report
From: Ruaro, Randall P (Deputy Chief of Staff)

Subject: FW: Special session press release
From: Nizich, Michael A (Chief of Staff)

Subject: Followup.
From: Colberg, Talis J (Alaska Attorney General)

Subject: FW: CONFIDENTIAL Ethics Matter
From: Nizich, Michael A (Chief of Staff)

The hacker was the son of a politician, btw

[Anonymous Coward]

This wasn't some naive kid, his dad's a Tennessee state representative (Democrat):

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008Oct09/0,4670,PalinHacked,00.html

Re:The hacker was the son of a politician, btw

[Xest]

Assuming he actually is the hacker.

He's pleaded not guilty and only turned himself in when he found they'd decided he was the culprit.

There is nothing to say he even did it, it could just as well be a case of the Republicans pushing for some Democrat's kid to be targetted to cover up a Republican screwup with anti-Democrat propaganda for all we know.

Re:The hacker was the son of a politician, btw

[Danse]

This wasn't some naive kid, his dad's a Tennessee state representative (Democrat):

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008Oct09/0,4670,PalinHacked,00.html

Politicians have naive kids too. We've seen lots of examples in the past on both sides of the aisle. What the kid did was excruciatingly dumb and he'll be punished for it, probably pretty severely, just due to the high profile nature.

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[Jorophose]

Um, yeah, about that. Do you mind coming now and voting against our idiots in charge? Or at least helping us mince them to minority? (I like the way that turns out; government oversteps, smacked into elections) ... because if Harper wins a majority I'm moving to the US...

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[boxfetish]

"This is the last chance for America to prove it's not totally made up of braindead, religious, nutbag trailer trash. If the GOP steals this one, too..I'm moving to Canada."

Funny you say that when here is a list of people that support obama: -Paris hilton -Britney spears -Hugo Chavez A shining example of intelligence and freedom. I don't think we want you in america anyway..we will be happy to see you go.

There is a big difference between having brain-dead trash as a supporter and picking it as your running mate. If Obama chose any of them as his running mate, I wouldn't vote for him either. Did the "braindead, religious, nutbag, trailer trash" remark hit too close to home?

Good for Goose and Gander

[moteyalpha]

GGG://hoist.by.ones.own.petard.gov
There was an article here on a bad search warrant that led to a criminal. So it seems, that no matter how badly the process is flawed, the ends justify the means and I think it is appropriate that if every single thing I do is scrutinized in or out of context, then the same should be true for the politicians who are more likely to do a great deal of damage, simply because they control many more resources, that are supposedly owned by everybody.

Re:Palin

[LSD-OBS]

Thanks, you're on the same brainless and reactionary wavelength as the crazy idiots on the other side screaming "Kill him!" and "Terrorist!" whenever Obama is mentioned.

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[Theaetetus]

Funny you say that when here is a list of people that support obama:

-Warren Buffet
-Michael Bloomberg
-Steve Jobs

You were saying?

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[SL Baur]

If the GOP steals this one, too..I'm moving to Canada.

Let me be the first to say ... do not let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

Suggest you try the Obama Paradise of Kenya or Zimbabwe first though. I have friends from Canada and I rather like it and I do not believe they would like you very much as a neighbor.

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[GuldKalle]

What a lame troll..

So because a bunch of doucebags are voting for one of the candidates, you're not?
It's lucky for you that such a list could never be compiled for McCain, otherwise I guess you'll just have to stay home on election day.

freedom of information act

[Benjamin_Wright]

A principle of the Information Age: Government is wise to organize itself and its records so it can swiftly and efficiently respond to freedom-of-information-act, open records and similar requests. Resistance to such requests is wasteful and makes government look out-of-touch. Hence, a government agency is prudent to tell employees (like governors) to send all business-related messages (e-mail, text and otherwise) through the agency's central IT system so they can be archived. --Ben

Re:Count me off your team

[TheRaven64]

she has a right to privacy

Sarah Palin the private individual has a right to privacy. Sarah Palin the Governor of Alaska has a responsibility to openness and transparency. I Sarah Palin the Governor of Alaska has been pretending to be Sarah Palin the private individual in order to escape this responsibility, then there is a problem.

Kwame Kilapratrick (former mayor of Detroit)

[raind]

He should of used something other than city owned communications equipment to cheat on his wife and talk about firing police officers, not that I would recommend Yahoo. Now he's going to jail. (Rightfully so).

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[the_fat_kid]

Seldom do the words "anonymous" and "coward" seem so appropriate.

While I applaud your right to have such a small and twisted world view I find it funny that you feel the need to hide it.

bitch.

Re:Sooper secret email address !!! omgroflcopter!!

[gandhi_2]

How many city, county, and state government agencies are switching to gmail?

My local college and my school district is...all public institutions.

Do you have proof she didn't use her State of Alaska system for official business? Is it possible she just used whatever account she had handy to get work done? Or that yahoo had better up-time than her exchange box (or whatever AK uses)?

Something "dodgy is going on" only because you don't like her. You don't like republicans, and you've got a chip on your shoulder. No "of course" about it.

Its funny how I keep hearing about "troopergate" with Palin. I would think the leftists would pick a different name

Re:Palin

[plantman-the-womb-st]

Huh, you're right, we should do this the American way.

Shoot them all and let God sort them out.

Or did you mean something different?

Re:Palin

[LSD-OBS]

Saddle up, YEEHAW! :)

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[p0tat03]

As a Canadian and Office Space fan... no thanks, I don't want you fuckin' up my life too.

Re:Count me off your team

[fm6]

Your argument is circular: because the invasion of Palin's privacy revealed wrongdoing, there's no invasion of privacy. But the hacker had no way of knowing what he would find. He just broke in on a fishing expedition. That is what makes it an invasion of privacy.

Using your own logic, I have every right to hack into your private files if I think I might find evidence of wrongdoing. Doesn't that wrongdoing negate your right to privacy?

Am I the only one that sees the real problem here?

[DustoneGT]

All the NSA/FBI/CIA/ABC SOUP need to do to access our personal data is get some punk kid to hack our accounts. They don't get in trouble themselves, but get to use all of the evidence in court.

Illegally obtained evidence, no matter who does the obtaining, should be banned from the courts. If not, we might as well kiss our 4th Amendment goodbye.

But, as usual, we are almost all blinded by Republican vs Democrat politics so badly that we can scarcely see the threat to our freedoms a foot in front of our faces.

Were there any damages?

[Kreplock]

'cuz, unless she was hatching a plot or clearly trying to hide something, I can't bring myself to care. And that's Bad, too. The nasty, nonstop personal attacks on her ever since she was announced as McCain's running mate have numbed me to it all. After the first mischaracterizations and outright lies instantly grew legs and everyone got slap-happy with her record I'm all out of patience with it. Now real stuff comes along and I'm spent unless it's truly nefarious. I'll assume she was a bit lazy about her multiple e-mail accounts like 99% of all other non-geeks until something nasty is found and sustained through public scrutiny.

Re:Were there any damages?

[Uberbah]

The nasty, nonstop personal attacks on her ever since she was announced as McCain's running mate have numbed me to it all.

Which ones, exactly? And are you as Concerned about her nonstop personal attacks on Obama?

Re:Am I the only one that sees the real problem he

[iminplaya]

In this election, freedom is off the table. Quite literally. The issue is not coming up.

Re:Count me off your team

[fbjon]

The "hacker" invaded her privacy, but found wrongdoing. He wasn't right, and she wasn't right. It's not either-or.

Re:Can anyone post a source?

[CronoCloud]

s/senile/early stage Alzheimers

How convenient that we find out he had it, not long after he left office. As I said myself to my family while he was still in office: "the way he acts sometimes at press conferences it's like he's got a bit of that Alzheimers".

Re: Optional

[TaoPhoenix]

(Orwell)
"Everything is optional. Sometimes it is more optional than others".
(/Orwell)

The Nixon saga was the last time we thought civics actually mattered. I believe a side effect of the information age is that we no longer care as strongly about individual incidents. Your evals are right, but "neglect of duty" is no longer enough to cause a ruckus.

Re:Count me off your team

[fm6]

Never said it was.

Email insecure unless encrypted,don't blame Yahoo.

[jotaeleemeese]

As all politicians are fond to say nowadays, lets be very clear: emailing from your business email address (or the governor office on Mrs Palin's case) does not make your email any more secure: it still goes in clear text, its delivery is not guaranteed, and it can be intercepted by any email relay along the way.

Yahoo may not be secure, but that is hardly a fault of Yahoo, the full specification of the smtp protocol does not include security features or reliability from the start.

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[Anonymous Coward]

If Liberal who has said they are moving out of country for the last two elections really had kept their word this country would be much better off.

Re: "Costs of 100th of a cent"

[TaoPhoenix]

You're mentioning the "De Minimis Fringe", which is the micro-benefit usage of a provided resource. Other examples are single copies of a page off a provided printer.

The big thing in this discussion is that she is neglecting to perform her business on the public official server. Other than "Oh, I forgot" there's no easy explanation for this.

Re:Sooper secret email address !!! omgroflcopter!!

[mgblst]

They probably use exchange, so for about half the day she can't get emails, the other half it wont send them out.

Re:Am I the only one that sees the real problem he

[Anonymous Coward]

The only reason she is being forced to keep her emails and make them publicly available are that she holds office, and under FOIA she's legally required to keep her emails regardless of whether she's using a public or private email service.

The only way you're in danger is if you get elected somehow.

Re:Count me off your team

[Gideon Fubar]

This is true iff the 'hacker' was the only person to do this. That is.. if the email accounts were accessed in a legal way (via court order to Yahoo, for example) then this evidence is freely admissible.

Since they were actually requested by the Alaskan courts, the point is now moot. So to speak.

The GOP has been testing my faith...

[gillbates]

And my patience for the last 8 years. I don't need any emails for that.

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[nacturation]

If the GOP steals this one, too..I'm moving to Canada.

Why do you hate freedom?

Why do you hate Freedom Fries?

Re:Count me off your team

[fm6]

What's not true? You seem to think I'm making some legal argument. Mine is a simple ethical argument: invading somebody's privacy is wrong. That's true even if the somebody is Governor Moose Lips.

Re:Count me off your team

[Gideon Fubar]

Of course. I was commenting on the other part: The information is still admissible if it was legally sourced.

I don't disagree that what the kid did was morally wrong. I don't think it invalidates the use of the email box as evidence, as he was not involved in the (other, legal) acquisition of its contents.

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[thelexx]

You know what? Fuck you and your righteous indignation. How about instead of being yet another over-aggressive knee-jerk flag waving asshole, try finding out why a growing number of people are feeling this way and doing something about it. As it stands, all you are doing is adding another entry to the list of reasons why people may want to leave. And I ain't sayin' this anonymously bitch.

So There's No Mistake

[Lord Flipper]

We're open for biz here, too.
And no, we do NOT have a bounty for shooting Trick 'r Treaters from a Cessna or Piper Cub; that was voted down 4-3
 
Regards,
lord_gov.flipper@yahoo.com

What law?

[Quila]

Ignorance of the law is no excuse

Such a law exists for the executive branch of the federal government, but so far nobody's shown whether there is such a law for the executive of Alaska. Not a good idea, certainly. Illegal, I'm waiting for a law that ways it is.

"oops! we lost that backup tape..." like the current White House did.

Sort of like what Clinton did, except those were targeted losses to duck subpoenas for Lewinsky and the FBI files. Even better, they threatened contractors with jail should they tell about the missing files. The whistleblower's office was even burglarized.

Re:What law?

[thetoadwarrior]

I am no fan of the Clintons but that sort of mentality is childish and what is ruining US politics.

Yeah Clinton did some shady things and his wife still does. That doesn't give Republicans the right to do. By that logic Hitler killed a ton of people in the holocaust so mass killings are ok.

Re:What law?

[Quila]

In liberal-leaning forums I tend to see people think only Republicans do wrong, especially this president. I like to remind liberals their heroes are just as bad, or worse.

But back to that Alaska state law making what Palin did illegal.

Re:What law?

[Uberbah]

In liberal-leaning forums I tend to see people think only Republicans do wrong, especially this president. I like to remind liberals their heroes are just as bad, or worse.

Do they point out that you're delusional and comparing mountain ranges to molehills?

Re:What law?

[spun]

You can find that information here:
http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/Statutes/Title40.htm
specifically here:
http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/Statutes/Title40/Chapter25.htm
and the definitions of the terms are here:
http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/Statutes/Title40/Chapter21/Section150.htm

My reading of it? The emails pertaining to state business are public records that must be preserved.

Re:What law?

[Maxmin]

Such a law exists for the executive branch of the federal government, but so far nobody's shown whether there is such a law for the executive of Alaska...

Such a law does exist for the Alaska state government. What do you think the DEC/FOIA lawsuit, followed by legal foot-dragging and exorbitant copying fees are all about? The plaintiffs want access to emails about polar bears, and the Palins want to make that very difficult.

They desperately need to avoid having their "private" emails from Yahoo and other non-governmental mail servers subpoenaed and made public, because then the jig is up. Secretly using private email accounts to conduct public business, in order to keep it beyond public scrutiny (they even sent an assistant to AK's Law Dept find out if it was illegal), is not the way to run an "open and transparent" state government. While this sort of behavior in a public official might warm the cockles of Cheney's heart, it's the kind most of us want kicked to the curb on November 4th.

And fortunately, for those of us who care about the rule of law, it looks like that's just what's going to happen.

Re:Count me off your team

[Keebler71]

No.. he didn't find wrongdoing. He found nothing at all. In his own words. The most incriminating emails I've seen from wikileaks that many are attributing as "state business" are nothing of the sort. They were "party business" which makes them political by nature... but that doesn't make them official government business. In fact, it would be irresponsible and unethical for her *to not use* her yahoo account (or a republican party account) for the conduct of her campaign. If anyone can link to an email that appears to be state business... I'd love to see it.

Subject lines

[PapayaSF]

the subjects clearly implied she was talking business

And those of us wise in the ways of the internet all know how subject lines are an excellent way to determine the actual content of emails!

Re:Subject lines

[thetoadwarrior]

Then one only has to look at the saved draft to her fellow governor if you're going to naive. ;)

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[roman_mir]

If liberals or ndp gets their candidate to be a PM, then I am moving to the Moon.

Re:Count me off your team

[TheLink]

I'm not a US citizen or a lawyer but I heard in the USA that's only if the cops did the illegal search.

Re:Count me off your team

[TheLink]

BTW does that mean the illegal wiretaps make almost everyone innocent?

Ah but they're now retroactively legal wiretaps...

Re:Am I the only one that sees the real problem he

[Legion303]

"Quite literally"

How do you go about placing freedom on an actual table?

Re:Am I the only one that sees the real problem he

[Xest]

The point people are making is if she is using underhand tactics to try and avoid the authorities why should we care if the authorities used underhand tactics to counter that?

Tying law enforcement down with the kind of strictness you suggest means they're fighting some of the most important criminals with both hands tied behind their back.

Here in the UK I've seen many cases of people having their home broken into, things stolen and the police knowing exactly who did it but not being able to arrest them because the goods are in their home and they have no evidence to get a warrant to go in. Frankly that kind of thing absolutely stinks, if the police know exactly who it is they should be able to go after them regardless else we end up with this situation where the criminal is better protected than the victim was.

that's great!

[sqldr]

maybe now they could concentrate on the hard stuff, like, well, given the life expectancy of John McCain, there is a serious possibility that America's president will be a cross-eyed barbie doll with a shotgun. Who thinks the earth is 6000 years old, and can't name a newspaper she reads, and doesn't know what Hamas is, and is backed up by voters who think she's going to get "raptured" on election night, and well, where do I stop? I'm kinda hoping that the stupid bitch gets eaten by hyenas and the results posted on failblog.

Re:Palin

[LSD-OBS]

That is tame compared to the hateful stuff that has been coming from the left for years now

Citation needed.

I mean, I've seen lots of hate speech, but I've yet to be aware of the "hateful stuff" coming from the left, or any side, which makes calls for death and assassination seem tame.

You sure you're not also just a reactionary idiot?

Re:Sooper secret email address !!! omgroflcopter!!

[aug24]

I'll make the quote more obvious for you

"...emails on **************govt************** business..."

Got it now?

Justin.

Re:Sooper secret email address !!! omgroflcopter!!

[freedom_india]

She wasn't trading...

The idiot who hacked her account should have "implanted" the evidence, and instead of publicizing his exploit, he should have 'accidentally' forwarded the same from her account to PBS or Newyorker.
Dumb ass.
He shd have acted the same way Rove quashed the records of Bush as Air National Guard leakage.
Silent and deadly.

Re:Email insecure unless encrypted,don't blame Yah

[thetoadwarrior]

True but in by choosing a public free provider it's been made much easier to access the email. If some form of communications isn't secure they should try securing it or use another method rather than throwing security right out the window.

Re:Sooper secret email address !!! omgroflcopter!!

[Danse]

why is a government employee sending emails on govt business through a free email account?

Because it's illegal to send campaign messages, partisan political messages, or e-mails dealing with RNC activities through a government account.

Those things aren't government business.

Re:Can anyone post a source?

[Danse]

Just one simple link will do. Any takers?

I have yet to see a single (not one) source that shows she was using this account for government business. If this is the case, why are there no links to copied of said email(s)? If this is all speculation, then for the love of god, shut the fuck up till there is proof.

Don't assume. Thank you.

If you're referring to her personal account, then this post lists the email headers. I haven't looked for a link to an article, but they look like the same ones that were in an earlier article, probably already linked here somewhere. It'll take a judge to release the full emails since she's already deleted her Yahoo accounts. The second Yahoo account was quite obviously being used for state business, and not even Palin is denying that.

Good luck with that

[gravis777]

Um, wasn't it said in earlier posts that the e0mail accounts had already been deleted? Yeah, let's pass a court ruling saying that you must keep a backup after it has already been deleted. Kinda like that stupid thing going on in Washington - if the ruling was passed BEFORE the deletion, that is one thing, but you cannot pass the rulling after the deletion. People should be shot for passing such insane court rulings.

Re:Count me off your team

[jvkjvk]

A private individual cannot make an illegal search - "illegal search" is really only possible if you have the authority to search in the first place. They may illegally break and enter. If they find something and turn it over to the cops, they may or may not be prosecuted (DA's choice); the person who they have the goods on may or may not be prosecuted, as well.

The evidence obtained by the police from an illegal activity that they neither committed nor encouraged is itself generally admissible at trial of the second individual. It is not counted as an illegal search by the cops since they weren't the ones who did anything illegal.

Also if in the investigation of one crime the cops discover evidence of another crime by the victim of the first crime, all such discovery is generally legal and that victim can be prosecuted as well.

An example. If the cops catch someone with a couple of kilos of coke that they stole and the guy tells them where he stole it from, the cops can obtain a warrant for that location. The evidence used to obtain that warrant is not thrown out because a third party obtained it through illegal means. At trial, the conviction won't be thrown out due to that fact either.

A closer example. If someone brags about doing something illegal online, such as breaking into a $random email account, the cops may investigate. They may also then find evidence of other illegal activities, such the use of that email account for governmental business in opposition to Alaska's sunshine laws. They could then prosecute the person who broke those laws, as well.

IANAL, so corrections to my interpretation are always welcome.

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[Jorophose]

I think we all realise at this point that the Bloc Quebecois is more likely to win the federal election than the NDP. As for the Liberals, yeah, Dion can be a bit weak; but looking at Harper who's a complete vulture, who would you rather have?

(and again, I'd rather see Dion win, with a minority; at least this way Harper will keep him in check... I'm afraid of Dion being a wimp when it comes to facing Harper.)

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[roman_mir]

You misunderstood me. I would have Harper over Dion any day of the week. Whether it is minority of majority I don't care.

Re:Sooper secret email address !!! omgroflcopter!!

[Cowmonaut]

It really is sad when one thinks that Democrat or Republican == Government.

Note to Americans: You can vote for _anyone_ you want that is old enough to be President/Senator/Representative/Governor/Mayor/etc.

Re:Count me off your team

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

I am also not a lawyer. I am also one who has watched too many episodes of law and order to get a feel for what a court would say in this matter versus what would advance the plot better.

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[Jorophose]

I don't know, the way Harper is rolling lately is looking very dangerous.

A US sockpuppet, won't tax the tarsands, helped bring in C-61 (effectively why I keep supporting my liberal MP, he acted against it, and proposed legislation for net neutrality), is a general jerk all around, has terrible ministers (stockwell day?... the cast from air farce is rolling in their graves. and the foreign affairs minister who left his docs at his ex girlfriend's? the industry minister who said Ontario is not the right place for industrial companies?) etc.

Sorry but Harper's a dick. I don't mind him in a minority still leading the way; you can have him however you like him. But seeing him in the majority, we might as well elect Bush.

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[roman_mir]

But seeing him in the majority, we might as well elect Bush.

- this is just retarded. Comparing Harper to Bush is like comparing Einstein to Carrot Top.

However I'll give you this, I just visited Ottawa and saw the difference in the city between now and 8 years ago and I know now where the country's money are going, regardless who is in the office.

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[Schadrach]

As opposed to coming down to a small number of votes in a state where the nominees brother was governor?

Nice work

[GameboyRMH]

Well posting AC apparently still undoes the moderation, smart guy ;)

Re:Sooper secret email address !!! omgroflcopter!!

[Uberbah]

IOKIYAR

Fixed that for you. Now just what part of "private accounts are not to be used for public business" do you not understand?

Re:Count me off your team

[jvkjvk]

Your comments almost make it seem like I am just shooting bull. While I may not be a lawyer, not only don't I watch law and order, I believe I *do* have a good idea on what the courts think about this issue.

I believe that I have the basic concept correct but there might be wiggle room in the details. It has been upheld pretty much universally in the US that cops can use evidence obtained investigating the commission of one crime to arrest someone else for another crime. There is no special immunity granted to law breakers just because another law breaker exposed their lawlessness.

The only issue would come from direct police involvement in illegally obtaining the evidence. In this case police neither encouraged or took part in hacking Palin's email account. They merely found about additional illegal activity on the victim's part while on a "routine" investigation of that incident.

Actually,

[IdeaMan]

It's more like s/left/government.

/tinfoilhat

Re:Count me off your team

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

My previous comment was only a statement attesting to my own lack of expertise, not yours. I apologize if you got the wrong impression. You may very well be correct. My own judgment in this matter is extremely suspect.

Internet Anarchism

[spun]

The technical elite of the Internet have always had an anarchist slant. It's in the nature of the network, and "The Medium is the Massage," as Marshal McLuhan said. But the Internet enabled two decidedly different branches of anarchism: the individualist anarchists such as American Libertarians, Minarchists, and the like on one side, and the social anarchists such as Anarcho-Syndicalists and Mutualists on the other.

The individualist anarchists were epitomized by the early newsgroup admins, IMHO. The open source movement provides examples of both. The political conflict seen on Slashdot is often more a product of this schism than it is of traditional American left-right divisions. Not that I think the majority of Slashdot's audience would identify as anarchist, but we have always been a very vocal minority.

Thank you

[Quila]

Finally, someone comes up with a law. But I still don't see anything here that would make her Yahoo account illegal. It looks like if a citizen wanted any public business she conducted on her Yahoo account disclosed, she would have to do so. Failure to do so would only result in a court order enjoining her from preventing access. Personally, I think it should be at least a misdemeanor and/or ineligibility to hold public employment to obstruct a citizen's access to public records.

Still not illegal. Good, no, but not illegal.

People seem to think because there are federal records rules concerning White House correspondence, that it applies to the states. It's probably because peoples' only experience with it in the news are the escapades of Clinton and Bush.

Re:Thank you

[spun]

Any correspondence regarding any program getting Federal funding would fall under the Federal FOIA.

Re:Thank you

[Quila]

FOIA being different from the requirement for White House employees to use the White House communications system so they can be archived. FOIA is the right to get the info, not how it must be stored.

And the only text of the FOIA relating to the states involves not releasing information if it could reveal a confidential state source. I just searched. But I personally know a federal FOIA official, so I'll ask since you may be right on precedent instead of the text of the law.

BTW: Don't do FOIA just because you can, have a real serious reason. It clogs the system and costs you more tax dollars as they hire extra people to process requests, and the hiring lags at least a year behind the request volume. A lot of requests are just nuisances and delay response to serious requests.

Re:Thank you

[Quila]

My FOIA friend says as a general rule the FOIA law (state or federal) covering the records goes with who holds the records. So if state employees are talking with each other about a federally-funded program, state FOIA normally applies.

It is conceivable that lines may be crossed, but it would be based on the specifics of an individual request.

Consistency: Krptonite for Republicans

[Uberbah]

Almost all of the coverage of Palin has been negative

Well, that's what happens when you report the facts on Republicans. Otherwise you end up with "balanced" coverage, like how the Washington Post calls states with a 13.8% Obama lead a "battleground state" yet a state where McCain has a 2.2% lead "leans Republican".

most coverage of Obama has been positive

This talking point was debunked months ago. Obama received fawning media coverage, yes - ask anyone who supported Edwards in the primaries - but only until he passed Hillary Clinton. Since then the media coverage of Obama has been constantly negative, because the media loves a horse race and loves trashing Democrats.

The facts are NOT unfair in themselves (there's plenty of legitimate complaints to make of her) it's that there's been no other reporting at all.

Fixed that up a bit for you.

What hypothetical question did she pose to the head librarian in Wasilla?

You don't ask about banning books three times if you don't want to ban books. That fact thing again.

What job did Palin hold between being mayor of Wasilla and becoming governor, and why did she quit? I would bet that the majority of average news consumers can answer the first question, while not one in 10 can answer the second

And how many voters know that Obama was head of the Harvard Law review vs how many know who Rev. Wright is?

despite the fact that the answer to the second question is the most significant political story about Palin explaining the foundation of her popularity and subsequent political success in Alaska, and that it is at least as revealing of her character and motivations as the first.

That she was a rat fleeing a sinking ship? Her record as mayor and governor proves that far from being a corruption fighter, she epitomizes corruption. She's just like Newt Gengrich, who forced Jim Wright to resign as Speaker of the House over Wright's book deal, only to have his own shady book deal when he was speaker, plus a bushel of other ethics violations.

Reporting on an opponents criticisms, and making criticisms yourself are somewhat different things.

Reporting on an opponents criticisms, and making criticisms yourself are somewhat different things.

No, it's called blatant double standards. Like how the media obsessed over Rev. Wright for two months, yet ignored John "the Catholic Church is the Great Whore" Hagee until he said that Hitler was sent by God to drive the Jews to Israel. Just imagine the response if one of Obama's daughters was 17, unmarried and pregnant.

On those occasions where reporting negative stories about Obama has become unavoidable they've largely been written in the form of an apologia. Witness the NYtimes story on his associations with Ayers. Somehow I doubt Palin would have gotten the same "inconsequential crossed paths" treatment if an abortion clinic bomber had hosted a fundraiser for her and served with her on a charitable board.

Because they should be, because this "associations" game is crap, and the Republicans who play it are firing howitzers in a big glass house:

"My government is my worst enemy. I'm going to fight them with any means at hand."

This was former revolutionary terrorist Bill Ayers back in his old Weather Underground days, right? Imagine what Sarah Palin is going to do with this incendiary quote as she tears into Barack Obama this week.

Only one problem. The quote is from Joe Vogler, the raging anti-American who founded the Alaska Independence Party. Inconveniently for Palin, that's the very same secessionist party that her husband, To

Re:Consistency: Krptonite for Republicans

[overunderunderdone]

*sight* i honestly don't feel like I have a dog in this fight. I dislike McCain and am planning to vote Libertarian (not that i like Barr but because I'm a libertarian and I'm sick of the rot in the Republican party. Perhaps though that's why i like Palin's bio as a cleaner of Alaska's Republican Augean stables and am frustrated by the one-sided coverage of her. Anyway to address a few of your points.

The facts are NOT unfair in themselves (there's plenty of legitimate complaints to make of her) it's that there's been no other reporting at all.

Fixed that up a bit for you.

Reread what i wrote, try to address the point honestly. I am SAYING that these are facts, and that reporting them is (of course) fair. My complaint is the failure to report other pertinent facts.

No, it's called blatant double standards. Like how the media obsessed over Rev. Wright for two months, yet ignored John "the Catholic Church is the Great Whore" Hagee

With all due respect there's a pretty big difference between being endorsed by a pastor and having someone BE your pastor for over 20 years. The association here is a bit closer between Wright & Obama than it is between Hagee and McCain. It is at least conceivable that McCain wasn't fully aware of Hagee's views and when they were reported he moved from vaguely supportive statements to denouncing Haggee's statements in the matter of a few hours. In Wright's case it's inconceivable that Obama wasn't aware of Wright's views and he clung to Wright for a lot longer. Wright didn't help matters by implying that Obama was being disingenuous in his denunciation.

Because they should be, because this "associations" game is crap, and the Republicans who play it are firing howitzers in a big glass house:

Hmm... Vogler said some incendiary things. Ayers set off some incendiaries. Vogler and Ayers both had/have radical ideas. Vogler's approach to implementing his ideas was to form a political party and try to get elected. Ayer's approach to get his ideas implemented was to blow things up and kill people. That right there is a rather critical difference in the situations. It takes pretty screwed up priorities to see Vogler as beyond-the-pale and at the same time to see Ayers as perfectly acceptable.

You mean media pundits like Republicans Pat Buchanan and Joe Scarborough? Or even better, Karl Rove on mayor/governor VP candidates when he though Obama might pick mayor/governor Tim Kaine of Virginia...

Aha... I see the source of your confusion. You don't understand the difference between a commentator and a reporter. Let's see if i can explain this... Some people on TV, or in the opinion pages of the papers are hired to express their biased opinions. Often TV shows will have two of these people on each side of a controversy, they are SUPPOSED to be biased in favor of one side or the other. Some of them are opinionated but try to be fair, some are party hacks who will say whatever is expedient and in the best interests of their party at any given moment. Now, on the other hand there are other people that write for the papers or TV news shows called reporters. They are supposed to report the facts of a matter and make great claims to be UNbiased. When people complain about media bias they are NOT talking about the intentionally biased opinion writers but the purportedly unbiased reporters.

Re:Consistency: Krptonite for Republicans

[Uberbah]

Perhaps though that's why i like Palin's bio as a cleaner of Alaska's Republican Augean stables and am frustrated by the one-sided coverage of her.

That's your problem. You have this image of her as a corruption fighter, which couldn't be farther from the truth. Like I said, she's just like Gingrich - she didn't take on corrupt figures because she wanted to clean out the system, but because she's a ladder climber who was looking to make a name for herself:

• She takes Bush's peonage appointments and turns it up to 11.
• She tried to ban books and tried to fire the Wasilla librarian when she rebuffed Palin's request for the third time.
• She fires officials that don't support her during elections.
• She requested earmarks that McCain specifically complained about as being wasteful spending.
• She fully supported the bridge to nowhere until Congress said it would have to be paid for with state money, yet took the federal funds anyway. Now she's lying by saying "I told Congress, 'Thanks, but no thanks,' on that bridge to nowhere."
• She illegally uses personal email accounts for state business.
• Abused her position by trying to have her ex-brother in law fired, and when the state commissioner refused, she fired him instead.
• And most dispicably, signed off on charging rape victims for examination kits.

I am SAYING that these are facts, and that reporting them is (of course) fair. My complaint is the failure to report other pertinent facts.

Like those Fox News talking heads that wished that the rest of the media would stop talking about all the bad things happening in Iraq - like bombings that would kill a hundred people at a time, roadside bombs killing our troops, and ethnic cleansing between Shiites and Sunnis - and focus on the positive things like construction of a new clinic inside the Green Zone. I'm sure the women of Iraq who would wear mourning robes for years at a time - another family member would be killed before it was time to take them off - would concur.

With all due respect there's a pretty big difference between being endorsed by a pastor and having someone BE your pastor for over 20 years.

With all due respect you're rationalizing a racist smear. If you watch more than "Goddamn America" soundbyte played on the media, he's speaking about how the United States kept slaves "in perpetuity", the "separate but equal" Dred Scott decision, Jim Crow, forced American Indians onto reservations, interned Japanese Americans during WWII, and the Tuskegee experiments on black men with syphilis. Funny how the media never mentioned that this Angry Black Man hated the United States sooo much he voluntarily gave up his student deferment and served two terms of duty as a Marine in Vietnam, and then re-enlisted as a medical corpsman and was so good he was the valedictorian of his class and was on LBJ's surgical team in 1966.

It is at least conceivable that McCain wasn't fully aware of

Re:Consistency: Krptonite for Republicans

[overunderunderdone]

Let me just note that pretty much every item in your list is BS or blown out of proportion:
1) Politician hires supporters and fires opponents. MY GOD WHAT A SCANDAL!!! So we expect that secretary Rice, Gates etc. will remain an Obama administration?
2) No, she did not try to ban books, and the librarian stayed on for years after the supposed cause of her firing.
Even if she had tried to get "My Two Mommies" removed that would have made her a pretty standard social conservative which we already know about her.
3) Didn't we cover this one already?
4) So, Earmarks are themselves a sign of corruption. And you are supporting Obama?
5) Granted, it was a stupid claim. She should have highlighted her taking on of the Republican establishment in Alaska instead. Tricky though since they are (mostly) still there. However, she is the one that finally killed the project (until she did it was still going forward)... still a tenuous and awfully "nuanced" claim.
6) I believe this is where we all came in ;). The law is silent on email. It is not illegal to have a private email, nor even to use it for state business. It's stupid but not illegal in itself.
7) Granted, though under circumstances most people find understandable.
8) Reread that hit piece you linked to. That $4000 line item that was cut to $1000 didn't just cover medical exams but things as diverse as snow removal, road maintenance and equipment rental. The medical exams included weren't just rape kits but blood test for drunk drivers. Also the bit in there about there having been 5 sexual assaults but not enough money disbursed to cover a single rape kit... I hope the author isn't so ignorant as to believe that sexual == rape. Sexual assault covers crimes from voyeurism & lewd verbal suggestions to attempted rapes that wouldn't require a rape kit to rape itself. Actual rapes are a tiny minority of the total it's likely there wasn't a single rape in the town during the one year the budget was reduced by a quarter. Indeed a search in google news for that single year of 2000 finds an attempted rape but no actual rapes.

Even if I accepted your attribution of the worst possible motives and most malign possible interpretation of the fact underlaying your list they aren't the only relevant facts, which was my point. All these items have gotten extensive coverage, which as I said is fair, right and good. There are however just as important and revealing facts that are not reported. Obama has received both positive and negative coverage. Coverage of Palin has been unrelentingly negative even though there are interesting and compelling stories that would (if reported) cast her in a more positive light. I also think that the negative coverage of Obama has often been in the form of an apologia minimizing the potential damage while that of Palin hasn't similarly benefited. Palin's record as a reformer is a compelling story that is only ever referenced in passing on they way to dishing up some dirt. To say as you did before that she was a rat fleeing the sinking Alaska Republican ship (and so should get no credit for her stance) is anachronistic. She resigned in protest over Ruedrich and took on Renkes years before the Veco scandal erupted to bring down the Republican party, which is why she was so successful in taking on the incumbent of her own party when it finally did. She had taken on her own party before the scandals when it cost her politically & she reaped the benefits of what appears to have been a truly principled stance when additional dirt came out and vindicated her. I know our politics are such that it's not enough to disagree with our opponents but that we have hate them as well to whip up the troops... just be careful with the Kool-aid. You're showing symptoms of having over-indulged.

It's fair for politicians to make the negative case against their opponents but it's disturbing to see the press (on the left at the NY times or on the right at FOX) so in the tank that "their" candidate might as well have a byline.

Re:Sooper secret email address !!! omgroflcopter!!

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

He shd have acted the same way Rove quashed the records of Bush as Air National Guard leakage.
Silent and deadly.

He should have farted on her email account?

Re:Does that inbred hick even know how?

[tbannist]

Just like there are similarities between Einstein and Carrot Top (Wacky Hair?), and disparities, Einstein's a lot smarter than Carrot Top and definitely a lot more important. There are similarities between Harper and Bush, both are autarchs who like to ignore anything that contradicts their beliefs about how things should be, and differences, Harpers a lot smarter than Bush.

However, Harper likes the way American politics works, he wants to be Canada's Bush (but with higher approval ratings). He takes his cues from American conservatism, he always has. I used to be a Conservative voter, but the party's dropped the fiscal conservatives to embrace the social conservatives and that's just not acceptable.

Frankly, I'm sick of Harper's one issue campaign: Dion is worse than I am. Methinks thou dost protest too much, Sar Harper!

I'd prefer Dion over Harper, Dion seems to be more grounded in reality and less likely to try to be the King of Canada (figuratively, not literally). But frankly, I think neither the Liberals nor the Conservatives deserve a majority.

Looks like it's the fiscally conservative and socially liberal party for me. I think I'll be voting Green tonight.

Payday Loan Advocate

[paydayloanadvocate]

After turning himself in to authorities, 20 year old David Kernell, son of Democratic Representative of Tennessee, Mike Kernell, is facing five years in prison, a $250,000 fine and three years of supervised release. He will be charged for hacking into GOP VP candidate Sarah Palinâ(TM)s personal E-mail account. It is alleged that after reading the contents, he took a screen shot and posted it on a public Web site. The contents included email addresses, pictures, birthdays, and phone numbers of family members and more. To top it off, after resetting the password, he also posted the new one he had created, which allowed others to access the E-mail account themselves. Nonetheless, Kernell pleaded not guilty to the charges. Facing a $250,000 fine is intense. At $1,500 per loan, it would take about 167 individual payday loans to cover that outrageous expense. Post Courtesy of Personal Money Store Professional Blogging Team Feed Back: 1-866-641-3406 Home: http://personalmoneystore.com/NoFaxPaydayLoans.html Blog: http://personalmoneystore.com/moneyblog/