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LittleBigPlanet Delayed Due To Qur'an-Sampling Audio
Several readers have pointed out that Sony's much-awaited LittleBigPlanet has hit a snag and will be delayed worldwide. The delay came after it was discovered that a song licensed for use in the soundtrack contained audio samples from the Qur'an. All advanced copies sent to retailers for the target release of October 21 in North America, 22 in PAL territories, and 24 in the UK and Ireland, have been recalled. "The post, by user 'Solid08', indicates of the specific references in the composition: 'In the 18th second: "kollo nafsin tha'iqatol mawt", literally: "Every soul shall have the taste of death' ... almost immediately after, in the 27th second: "kollo man alaiha fan", literally: "All that is on earth will perish."'"
So what if it has that there?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The Qur'an is out of copyright by now, so what's the problem?
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I thought writing the lines in text was a reproduction just as much as the audio? Yet /. just posted them?
Or maybe I'm just confused and there is a difference between writing them and the audio copy.
Delayed PS3 game + angry gamers + Anon. internet forums + Western distrust of Islam = A lot of wasted /. Moderator points slaying trolls.
Whether or not there is some sort of god, I'm not supposed to say/god is a word and the argument ends there-Smog
It's not like some militant Islamic sect would burn down the distributor's house... oh, wait.
So I can publish games that include demons, prostitutes, foul language, and abhorrent levels of bloodshed and violence--just as long as it doesn't piss off a Muslim somewhere?
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Is that supposed to be offensive to someone? I dare say anyone with the background to understand the words and recognize them as a quote from an old religious tome would be unlikely to get too worked up.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
I don't see the big deal here, since Muslims are supposed to want to distribute the Qur'an. But I can see how people would be extra paranoid about offending Muslims, since some of them take offense violently.
-- Support a free market in the field of government
Yeah? And? So? What?
I support the immediate recall of all games containing biblical samplings and verse references. /satire
It is well known that religious references are debase and cause conflict, therefore have no place in today's games
Another look at the meaning is clearly only stating the obvious: Just as every life has a beginning it also too must have an end. It does not say that everyone must perish in a cruel, agonizing, bloody death. Even the bible has some pretty dark lines surpassing this one.
Not the same Sony who didn't see anything wrong with Manchester Cathedral being used in Resistance, despite the church itself complaining? Not that I think either should be grounds for a game to be pulled, but there is the faint stench of double standards...
Hmm... do religions of peace say things like:
(Sura 2:191-193) "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."
(Sura 8:12) "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."
(Sura 8:59-60) "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
(Sura 9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and fought jihad with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant."
(Sura 9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
(Sura 9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them"
(Sura 9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and fight jihad with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew."
Yeah. I'm sure they were worried about "offending" people whose idea of responding is to kill anyone who "offends" them. Like, say, Theo Van Gogh or Salman Rushdie.
Sad day to see this happen.
Maybe they were afraid of being beheaded or murdered for making fun of the prophet?
Worse than a beheading maybe they were afraid of the copyright infringement.
Religion of peace?
the radicals and the terrorists win acceptance of the idea that they alone get to dictate how the world handles their pet delusion.
Belief is the currency of delusion.
My pvp guild in WoW says that EVERY DAY!!!!
Attention all planets of the Solar Federation! We have assumed control! - Neil Peart
Who fucking cares? Is the Qu'ran copyrighted or something? Stop coddling these bullshit religions.
There is a war going on for your mind.
Yeah, it's amazing how sensitive people can be when offending some religious group might get your building bombed or your artists shot or stabbed.
So what? Having a game censored because of pandering to some primitive superstition is highly offensive to me.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Noooooo! Don't take my Final Fantasy CDs away! Not my Evangelion! Not Ghost in the Shell!
Eno and Byrne had a song called with Quran verses in the 80's and they were told by some imam that it was blasphemy to put the words of god to "grooves" (Byrne's word I think), so they took the song off the album.
Yeah, that line "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" scares the hell out of corporate executives. "Blessed are the peacemakers" give Republicans the willies, and "Blessed are the pure at heart" terrorizes the Democrats.
Free Martian Whores!
and for everyone else, there's the old testament
Lo! they cannot escape.
I misread that as "Lol".
4114h00 4kH bR !!!
Squirrel!
Actually the quran is quite specific in which souls need to have a cruel, agonizing and bloody death. It also clearly specifies how they're to be administered : every muslim is to "fight, kill and die" as a slave of allah until there isn't a single non-muslim left.
And if you want demonstrations, you could read about the religious massacres in the description of the "prophet's" life.
It's even got paedophilia. Somehow I don't think it's very politically correct, all these inconvenient truths.
"I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children." (Leviticus 26:22)
"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18)
"The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women" (Ezechial 9:4-6)
"When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves." (Deuteronomy 20:13-14)
"You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you." (Deuteronomy 28:53)
"The Lord said to Joshua [...] 'you are to hamstring their horses.' " (Exceedingly cruel.) (Joshua 11:6)
"... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." (Judges 21:10-12)
"This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass .... And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword." (1 Samuel 15:3,7-8)
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their women with child ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)
"A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work!
A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!" (Jeremiah 48:10)
Yeah, but crazy Islamo-nutballs don't come blow up your building when you quote the Bible.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Oh, come on. You've read the Old Testament, right? There's sections there are pretty violent as well, just as unforgiving. I'm not going to find these quotes for you because I don't have the time now. I don't have them conveniently wrapped together in a chain email which I'm guessing you pulled this from.
+1 for selective quotes +5 for unnecessary incendiary quoting -5 questionable modding
How many slashdot trolls had mod points today?
Seriously - this has meaning. The guess that they pulled the game because of fears over rioting/threats or actual violence is a pretty good guess given the "objectionable" content that's being removed from the game.
Would you think they'd have removed it for a couple of lines in Yiddish? Or a Biblical quotation, or a Celtic pagan quotation? You can be 100% sure that they wouldn't.
Give Parent Poster his karma back. This wasn't "flamebait."
If you can read this sig, congratulations, you have your glasses on!
There is no right to "not to be offended". Especially when the group in question, or at least its more vocal components, respond to satire and criticism with riots, bombs, and assassination. In some parts of the world, all it takes is an ill-founded rumor that someone interprets as a slight to Islam to trigger riots and mob violence. The solution isn't to appease the mob. If people act like thugs, they should be treated like thugs.
Give us a call when you get tired of living in the dark ages.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Would that be the original release or the digitally remastered 5.1 version from just a couple of years ago? Personally, I prefer the vinyl version because digital just can't carry the warmth of Allah's vocals and that sweet guitar.
Dunno, seems like a pretty odd thing for a peaceful religion to say sure. Of course, cherry picking to find offensive things in the Quar'an isn't any better than quote mining the Bible. I think that there should be more of a push to get people to actually read their religious texts, in my extremely informal sampling of my friends/classmates/housemates/etc it seems that there's very little of that amongst those who describe themselves as belonging to a certain religion.
Proverbs 20:30 Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being.
- Hence, Jesus was *really* pure when he finally got crucified? And bullies in schools are just trying to make their victims more godly?
Deuteronomy 7:1 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations ... then you must destroy them totally. 2 Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
- Peaceful indeed.
Leviticus 21:18 For no one who has a defect shall approach: a blind man, or a lame man, or he that hath a flat nose, of anything superfluous.
- Shun those with physical abnormalities. And yet, Jesus supposedly hung around with the blind, lepers, clubfooted people all the friggen time?
Ephesians 5:22-23 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, and he is the saviour of the body.
1 Timothy 2:11-12 Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent.
- That's right. Get back in the kitchen! Get back to submitting and quit telling me to take out the garbage.
Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your GOD.
Deuteronomy 22:28 If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
- Pants are bad but rape is OK as long as you pay for it and marry her.
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
- Jesus explaining what he wants people to do when he returns.
Leviticus 25:45 Moveover the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land; and they shall be your possession.
Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Isaiah 13:15-16 Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished.
- "Stab all those people over there, bash the head's of their babies in against a rock, then rape their women(especially the young cute virgins)." Sounds more like the order of a corrupt general than an omnibenevolent diety.
Leviticus 20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness, he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood. And both of them shall be cut off from among their people.
- Because we all know that menstrual blood is icky and if people fuck when she's on the rag they should be killed.
Exodus 21:20-21 And if a man smite his slave, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished
Buddha says I should forgive you and remind you that two wrongs don't make a right.
Part of the trouble is that the verses you're referencing in the Old Testament were from a specific war -- "Go and kill the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead" or "Destroy the Amalekites" -- particular people who they were fighting at the time. Unlike the Qu'ran, the Old Testament doesn't say that these instructions to wage war are standing orders.
It's even got paedophilia.
The Bible's got incest, rape, mass-murder (and it advocates some mass-murders, too), and all sort of cruelties that were committed by both Jews and Christians--such as any other people in the history of humanity.
How 'bout you read the old testament for a change?
"Oh, come on. You've read the Old Testament, right?"
Sure, but nowadays only a tiny few people actually consider that old superstitious nonsense much more than a hobby. Even the Christian fanatics in the US rarely go very far. Note that Christian superstition also has a New Testament...The Quran is still taken seriously, to which current events will attest.
Why should we who know better respect religion? Religion does not respect us.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
So go strap a bomb to yourself and do something about it. What, not that passionate about it? Can't imagine why Sony doesn't take offending you seriously.
Well done. You just pointed out a different religious text that tells it's followers to kill and teaches hate. That in no way it a counter argument to the posters point.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
... the licensed LBP soundtrack song 'Tapha Niang' by Muslim artist Toumani Diabate's Symmetrical Orchestra uses voice excerpts from the Qur'an in its musical composition.
We Muslims consider the mixing of music and words from our Holy Quran deeply offending.
What's this "we" shit?
Insanity is the last line of defence for the master diplomat. But you have to lay the groundwork early.
I'm convinced that this sort of thing is a last gasp amongst the extremists to hold onto the old ways. The fact is that the world is changing and nobody can stop it. The Middle East is being exposed to the outside world via the internet and other media. The religious hardliners are realizing that they're losing their hold on the people and I suppose like most people they don't like change.
I realize American imperialism is brought up as the reason for this violence. But I'm convinced that's bullshit. The widespread dissemination of foreign cultures is the more real and subtle threat.
I think it's similar to certain Christian groups in this country coming out trying to denounce evolution and force creationism on people. Deep down they realize their religion is being marginalized and are grasping at straws trying to make it relevant.
The problem is that they're confusing a crumbling power structure for faith when the two aren't connected. There's no reason whatsoever why a person can't be devoutly religious and still accept science and progress.
The key difference, however, is that Muslim extremists are more likely to blow things up to get their way, or at least threaten to do so. Sure, you get the occasional Christian nut who tries to shoot an abortion doctor or something, but that's the extent of it. But Christians consistently denounce the act. On the other hand, at best Muslims won't say anything at all and at worst will run into the streets in celebration.
But ultimately these small victories are insignificant in the long run. And having heard some guys complaining about how Middle Eastern is growing increasingly liberal the days of religious extremism are numbered.
Political correctness has crippled America. By no means am I endorsing bigotry and racism, but we should be able to have open discourse about issues without it devolving into claims of racism.
The percentage of the Muslim population in the US is .6% to 1%. The last time I checked we still had free speech and the presence of this passage in a game is not intentionally offensive from what I can tell.
When Andres Serrano dumped a crucifix in urine and photographed it he wasn't banned from displaying his work. Hell, a nun actually stated in an interview that the work was not blasphemous but rather an example of what people have done to Christ.
It's an interesting difference, though, isn't it? Islamic fundamentalists trying to get rid of public displays of pictures of Mohammed, trying to eliminate people reciting the Quran in products, and so on, and meanwhile, Christian fundamentalists are insisting on public displays of pictures of Jesus, trying to get readings from the bible everywhere, and so on.
It's just a different kind of crazy.
Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
how come any time someone talks about what's wrong in the Muslim faith, the knee jerk reaction is from a bunch of /b/tards who want to shit all over other religions?
This has nothing to do with the argument, and NeutronCowboy's argument is "crap" as he puts it. It is entirely possible for MULTIPLE religions to be wrong and trying to distract from Islam's problems by attacking another religion is a poor debate tactic, a desperate attempt to distract the argument from something he knows he can't honestly defend.
Remember, hell is exothermic.
If you can read this sig, congratulations, you have your glasses on!
And the bit about the moneylenders in the temple frightens both the capitalists AND the televangelists. That's right, you rich greedy bastards, when Jesus comes back, he's totally going medieval on all your asses.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
No no no. "Blessed are the peacemakers" is a sure sign that God wants us to have nukes.
The more enthusiastic priests and ministers quite like these ones though:
"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him."
and
"If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... stone them with stones, till they die."
That people in Christian countries who usually mention Muslims as being a bunch of religious fanatics are usually, you know, Christians.
Either way, I believe you're misguided if you believe the only reason why the so-called terrorism exists is because the Qu'ran advocates mass murder of infidels.
Unfortunately for American media and the US government, reality is much more complex than that.
Here's one:
But that's rather beside the point. Suicide bombings are committed almost exclusively in defense of homeland against occupying forces (or, rather, the belief that such a thing is occurring), especially forces of a different religion, and especially when those doing the defending live in relative poverty. There are very few cases of countries with poor, heavily Christian populations that are occupied by people of other religions. Ergo, hardly any Christian suicide bombings.
Really ? In islam it is the prophet that commits paedophilic rape (forces a 9 year old girl to have sex with him).
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.236
Please point out in the bible where Jesus rapes a 9-year old girl "because God tells him to" ... After all I've shown you the equivalent in islam ("repression" in English).
Please show me the christian states where rape of minor girls is STILL practiced because limiting such would be "illegal". Please show me the christians demanding the right to rape underage girls, please show me christians murdering their children because they try to run from these marriages ...
After all "it's all the same", isn't it ? Let's see it.
All quotes from the Bible reference specific commands to the Israelites at a specific time in their history. Yes, they are pretty barbaric. However, none of them are commands for the Christians or Jews of today. If I'm not mistaken. the quotes from the Qur'an are not specific commands for specific individuals at a specific time, but commands for all Muslims, all the time.
... and I know a lot about Islam. I teach it to other Muslims. Yes, the religion teaches that the Quran must not recited in conjunction with music. It must be vocal only, although most of the reciters inflect their voice so that it is beautiful to hear, much like music is. The musician that Sony licensed it from should be contacted about it. I wouldn't blame Sony for it. But I can see why some Muslims might be offended by it. Grow up. It's only two phrases, not an entire passage. I personally think it is kind of cool to have it in a game, as long as it is innocuous and not used to promote an anti-Islamic agenda (other posters here have cut and pasted text for that). "Bismillah" ("in the name of God") is in The Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen and I love it everytime I hear it. And then Beelzebul shortly thereafter takes me back to the D&D days...
This fact is often understated. The average Muslim is just about as religious as the average Christian. That being said we don't see rioting in the streets (all that often) because of religious differences. It's usually the leadership (and the Fundamentalist versions of Brown Shirts) that spur things on.
Lo! they cannot escape.
I misread that as "Lol". 4114h00 4kH bR !!!
No, you're right. It does say "Lol". Full excerpt:
"and let not n00bs who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip ALLAH'S PURPOSE!!!!1 lol they cannot escape. make ready for them all u can of armed force and of...OMG PONIES!!! rofl. so um..that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and u can haz victory."
The Church of England got miffed when one of their churches was featured prominently in one of the levels of Resistance: Fall Of Man. This is a seemingly bigger offense than including a couple snippets of the Quran, yet Sony refused to recall the game.
Not only leadership. The situation in Islam countries is often of major poverty, and there are several reasons for that--ONE of them being leadership. International context and the original social framework are just as, if not more important (these latter often serve as a reason to explain the appearance of "evil" leaders).
Really ? Why don't you tell us what reality is ? Because all these media seem to get the ball all wrong (well everybody certainly seems to agree all these facts are totally misguiding everyone)
The fact that the quran openly calls for genocide, and that these calls have been answered by muslims during their entire history, certainly doesn't help matters. But you're right. Most, if not 99% of islamic terror is muslims killing muslims for the most despicable of reasons, few having anything to do with religion. Money, fame, anger and especially shame cause muslims to murder eachother, but taking away the murder excuse that is islam would do no harm whatsoever.
That said, of course you're right every ten years or so there is a terrorist attack that isn't muslims killing for islam. Every now and then some communists kill around a bit. It's been a while though.
http://thereligionofpeace.com/
This week ONLY terrorist attacks. Since monday muslims murdered 70 people "for allah". Strangely enough there weren't any non-muslim terrorist attacks this week. Anyway here's the list :
10/16/2008 Pakistan Swat 5 15 A Fedayeen suicide car bomber rams into a police station, killing five Pakistanis.
10/15/2008 Iraq Karbala 22 0 A mass grave is discovered containing the bodies of twenty-two abducted shepherds
10/15/2008 Iraq Baghdad 7 18 A Mujahideen bomb blast and separate mortar attack on a mosque leave seven civilians dead.
10/15/2008 Afghanistan Lashkar Gah 6 0 Six local police are taken out in a brutal Taliban ambush on their checkpoint.
10/15/2008 Pakistan Swat 2 0 The Taliban enter a home and murder a husband and wife.
10/15/2008 Pakistan Swat 3 0 Three people, including two brothers, are killed in two Jihad shooting attacks.
10/14/2008 Afghanistan Kandahar 1 0 Religious extremists assassinate a government official who aids war widows.
10/14/2008 Afghanistan Uruzgan 9 6 Two children are among nine civilians murdered when Taliban bombers target a minibus.
10/14/2008 Philippines North Cotabato 1 0 Moro Islamists attack a Christian village, killing one civilian and driving many families from their homes.
10/14/2008 Pakistan Kabal 1 0 Sunni extremists abduct, torture and behead a local soldier.
10/14/2008 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 Islamists murder the driver of an aid agency.
10/14/2008 India Poonch 2 0 Mujahideen kill two local soldiers in separate ambushes.
10/13/2008 Afghanistan Ghazni 6 2 Religious extremists take out six civilians with a roadside blast.
10/13/2008 Pakistan Darra Adam Khel 1 4 A sudden Sunni rocket attack leaves a local security staff member dead.
10/13/2008 Somalia Mogadishu 2 23 Two African Union mission members are killed when Muslim militia attack their vehicles.
10/13/2008 Pakistan Murid Wal 1 0 A young man is forced by honor to kill his mother when she refuses to break off an 'illicit' relationship.
Please my friend can we stop with the Islam bashing? I'm begging.
I'm just a good old Canadian boy who happened to marry into a family of Muslims and let me tell you the only thing that the entire lot of them want to do is have six-thousand course dinner parties that go on for hours and dance. I'm serious.
If they worry about anything, which they don't seem to much, it's that their religion has been hijacked by nutcases. I guess we could talk about how the nutcases seem to always come from fundamentalist dictatorships that America had a hand in creating and supporting (The House of Saud, the Wahib clan, The Shah of Iran, the Taliban, Musharraf, Assad).
But that is another discussion. If anyone holds to the belief that inside the heart of every Muslim is a bloodthirsty jihadist looking for the right time to strike, well, you couldn't be more wrong. Why not just go with the flow and enjoy the fact that middle eastern women tend towards the large-chested and friendly?
Equine Mammals Are Considerably Smaller
Well then, I guess the people in Amalek, Samaria and Jabesh-Gilead must have taken great comfort in knowing that they were only part of a finite list of butchered victims.
Off topic I know, but something interestingly different between the quotes from one scripture to the other.
The Muslim scripture has blanket instructions to kill all of a select set of groups, from now 'till the end of time.
The Judeo-Christian scripture has specific instructions against a given people for a specific time.
In all reality reading any scripture independent of context is not the best way to compare religions.
If anyone recalls, the original release of Legend of Zelda, Ocarina of Time, used the muslim call to prayer as a component of the theme music to the fire temple which generated some controversy. It was replaced in future releases (as well as a modification to the design on the mirror shield which also used some religious imagery. It's possible to argue that people were overreacting to find that snippet of music controversial, when other religious music and themes seem to have been used in the game without concern such as gregorian chant in the temple of time, a mishmash of eastern religious imagery in the desert temple, etc. On the other hand, the call to prayer is extremely integral to Islam. It is traditionally called out from a minaret five times a day to signal prayer times. Considering that Islam has some fairly strong prohibitions against idolatry and fire worship in particular (due to an association with zoroastrianism, although from what I understand, it's a largely incorrect one). So it is understandable that some muslims could get upset at someone using one of islams most important prayers and associating it with a paganistic fire temple. It's not islam in particular either. There are fundamentalist Christian groups that raise a fuss every time an upside down cross or the black mass appears in a movie or game. Most of the time no-one bothers to accommodate them (unless they really, really want to get their game onto wal~mart shelves). That's at least in part because most of these groups are in the US, and most of the US is christian of some flavor or another(christianity is the state religion as far as many people, including most of those in authority, are concerned) so the population feels like it collectively "owns" christian imagery, whereas imagery from other religions is more off-limits. It's the same for other things. Jews are generally very comfortable making jokes about wholesale prices and nosejobs, black people are pretty comfortable with the dreaded n-word, no-one can get mad at anyone whose name ends in -ski for making polish jokes, etc. So, as much as I'm for freedom of speech, I also recognize that some of it can make people upset and you shouldn't needlessly insult them, on the other hand, if this sort of thing were applied to every cultural, religious, and racial reference, we wouldn't have a lot left to work with.
That's all great, but all of the most cheesy lines are from the Old Testament. Now Christians also have the New Testament, and the majority of them worldwide (all Catholics, all Orthodox, most Protestants) believe that the New Testament had done away with those old commandments, so that they're no longer in force, and also don't take the suspect lines from NT (such as "Not to Bring Peace, But a Sword") literally. Of course, there is also a "fire and brimstone", stone-the-gays minority that believes they're very much in force, but it's a tiny minority - and the one largely ostracized.
Can you point me at the equivalent of the New Testament in Islam that would discard the laws such as stoning for adultery or beheading for apostasy, or name a mainstream Islamic school of law that considers those laws to not be in force today? Have you ever met a non-homophobe Muslim?
"Many Noodly Caresses to you, my followers".
That is quite an important (and occasionally overlooked) point; the most dangerous people in the world are those with nothing left to lose.
Are you sure God just doesn't really like Colt Firearms: Colt Peacemaker
Help fight poverty: Punch a poor person.
Nobody is trying to force public displays of pictures of Jesus
Nope, nothing like that.
It always amazes me how people don't read what they're referring to ... Heh.
Besides, in the new testament you won't even find this type of things. So unless you're criticizing the Jews, might I remind you that (at least in catholicism and protestantism) the old testament is a historical tale, describing God's interactions with the Jews. Not the center of Christian dogma, that would be the new testament. Jesus, who refuses to shed blood even to save himself. The best known story ever told on this little planet. But even in the old testament the situation isn't one tenth as bad as you imply :
1 Chronicles 21
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it...
Oops, guess that one was a misser on your part, right ? You said "God". Actually a king did it, at the direction of satan. Also read the entire story. He did quite a bit more than "counting" before God intervened, protecting people (protecting some by attacking others).
Deuteronomy 3
Is about 2 armies fighting. One army faced another. One army did not survive, because God supported the other side.
Hardly seems the same as "killing and plundering all cities", now doesn't it ? Oops. They did gain dominion of a kingdom through that victory. Well duh, they didn't fight for fun, they actually fought over something.
I'd name all of them, none of which are anywhere near as clear-cut as you imply, but what's the point ? It's not like you're actually trying to make an informed argument about the bible. You haven't read the bible, and you're proud of the fact. First read those stories (and chapter before your reference and chapter after them), then we'll discuss what means what, like informed adults.
I'll make you a deal.
They stop treating their women as if they were afraid of womens' sexuality (keeping in mind I've done PLENTY of study of Islam) and stop sticking their women in beekeepers' outfits, and I'll be more than happy to "appreciate" the fact that middle eastern women tend towards large-chested and friendly.
In all seriousness, though... "worrying" that your religion is "hijacked", and actually standing up en masse and saying so, are two different things. And by and large, Muslims seem just fine letting people "hijack" their religion all day long. That creates its own set of problems. Let's face it, the number of people at various "not in our name, you don't represent Islam" rallies is a mere fraction of those who rally for death and murder in Islam's name across the world.
I wish it weren't so. I wish your relatives the best, I really do. But there's a long road ahead and they are, sadly, VERY much in the minority concerning their interpretation of the Muslim faith.
There are some online importers who still have copies of the game. National Console Support Inc. may have a few copies left, but they have been going fast now that the game has been indefinetly recalled. You might want to check with other importers to see if they have any copies left in stock.
I've got one on the way for delivery tomorrow, cause really I don't give a flying ratass about who's religion is saying what. Less religion, more faith. You all can go argue while im going to get back to waiting to play LBP tomorrow.
"Have you ever met a non-homophobe Muslim?"
Absolutely. This is a retarded question attempting to pigeonhole a huge group of people simply because it's easier than treating people like individuals.
It's modded "funny" as was intended, you humorless fool. I'm guessing you're either a religious fanatic or an athiestic fanatic. I'm not sure which is worse, but you really need to chill.
Free Martian Whores!
Have you ever met a non-homophobe Muslim?
I don't know, but then again, "Do you hate homosexuals?" isn't really the best conversation starter with a new friend.
Yet all of the Muslims I've ever met are charming, peaceful friendly people. Big on family values, very law abiding, and socially responsible.
You probably haven't gotten to know them very well. The majority of people are dishonest, hypocritical, untrustworthy and at least condone some measure of violence against their opponents. This is despite any religious or political facade that underlies the way they think and act.
Show me a "family values" person and chances are that they are intolerant, prejudiced, and hypocritical.
While there are definitely some racy parts of the old testament, I don't know of any place where incest or rape is okey'd by God, but there are a few places where God's silence on the issue leads people to assume he's ok with it. Other passages usually make it quite clear that he isn't. But there is still the question of Adam & Eve's kids, and I'm not sure biblical scholars really agree on what that's all about.
The times where mass-murder is advocated are interesting. God establishes the precedent in Genesis (when he floods the world and when he tells Abram that his descendants will come back and destroy the Amorites in 400 years because their evil was not yet fully grown) that he waits until a people group is wholly, completely, evil before wiping them out. In other passages he isn't as explicit, but in those cases there are examples of individuals within those societies who turned to God and were spared from being destroyed (this happened in Sodom & Gomorrah and in Jericho, and in the Exodus some of the Egyptian slavers left with the children of Israel, etc). The point being, that while it isn't as explicit as most of us would be comfortable with, there is a precedent there of still allowing individuals a chance to repent if they were really open to it.
Not that I can explain away every strange passage in the Bible; I don't think anyone can. I just wanted to mention that when it comes to a text that was written thousands of years ago in a culture that none of us were a part of, in a language most of us don't speak, it needs to be read with a little more care than most (including myself) usually want to put into it.
As for cruelties that have been afflicted in the name of God (some of them even in biblical times but without his blessing), I don't think there is any justification for them. Just a bunch of religious leaders who decided to abuse their power like any human would be tempted to do. And I know they like to justify their actions by finding passages in the Bible, but if you're going to just take verses out of context you can really make the Bible say anything you want.
Also, knowing that about the Bible makes me hesitant to take a passage from any other religious text (the Qur'an included) out of its context and make judgements based on it. Someday maybe I'll have the time to study the Qur'an, but not yet.
The bible says "though shall not murder" not "kill". The translation from many bible versions is wrong, and has been corrected over time. Kill != murder, there is a difference.
Yeah, it's totally like rain on your wedding day.
Um, no. He might go "Roman" on their asses, but it will probably be a new testament hand slap:
"oh, come on you big thillies, you knooow thatth bad!"
What ever happened to the pillar of salt justice or city leveling anger of the old testament god?
Not being a follower, but having read the bible, I always wondered why, despite being referred to as male, "God" got emasculated in the new testament.
How amazed would you be to suddenly find that you just forgot what I wrote and you needed to reread my post.... again.
You seriously lack perspective. Look again...with an open mind...
In response to items like:
"10/15/2008 Afghanistan Lashkar Gah 6 0 Six local police are taken out in a brutal Taliban ambush on their checkpoint."
I suggest:
US strike kills 9 al Qaeda and Taliban in North Wazirstan
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2008/10/us_strike_kills_9_al.php
US kills 6 in strike in Baitullah Mehsud's territory
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2008/10/us_kills_6_in_strike.php
US Kills al Qaeda in Iraq's deputy commander
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2008/10/us_kills_6_in_strike.php
When we do it, its framed as a 'strike against $evil_people' not as an invasion force killing people in their homes, like when they fight back.
In response to something like:
"10/14/2008 Afghanistan Uruzgan 9 6 Two children are among nine civilians murdered when Taliban bombers target a minibus."
how about:
Unmanned US drone kills school children...
http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/index.php?sid=403793
What do you think would be written if it had been their unmanned drone and our children?
And as for this:
"10/13/2008 Pakistan Murid Wal 1 0 A young man is forced by honor to kill his mother when she refuses to break off an 'illicit' relationship."
Gee that sounds awful.. but doesn't REALLY sound much different than this:
"An 18 year old boy, Sean Powell, was shot to death in his car outside the home of the married teacher he had been having an affair with. Local police have arrested the woman's husband, Eric Mclean, in the shooting."
Same motivation, Same result, same difference. Oh wait... you mean to say it was a state sanctioned murder? gotcha...luckily we have those too...
"Kevin Watts, 27, was pronounced dead on Thursday at 6:17 pm Texas time (2317 GMT), spokeswoman Michelle Lyons told AFP.
It was Texas' tenth execution since the start of the year, and the second execution to take place this week. Ten more inmates are scheduled to be killed in Texas by the end of November."
Granted we don't do it for adultry... but on the other hand, we don't exactly have the best track record for even properly ensuring our victims are guilty...
http://www.abanet.org/irr/hr/fall97/deathpen.html
I think not.
Best regards,
UTW
Consider starting.
The Noodly appendages of FSM command you to rise up and slay with Prego sauce anyone who offends His Noodliness by including words of wisdom from his Great Cookbook in their songs or slashdot posts. Unless, of course, proper accrediting is given, including a sprinkle of oregano and paprika.
Bearded Dragon
I'll make you a deal.
You stop talking about Muslims as if they were a homogeneous hive mind, and I'll stop considering you a flame-stoking bigot.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Ephesians 5:22-23 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, and he is the saviour of the body. - That's right. Get back in the kitchen! Get back to submitting and quit telling me to take out the garbage.
That's one of the Bible verses which is most often quoted out of context. If you read it in context then the wife gets off lightly. She only has to submit to her husband: he has to sacrifice his life for her.
Deuteronomy 22:28 If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. - Pants are bad but rape is OK as long as you pay for it and marry her.
It's not saying that rape is OK. This needs to be read with the cultural context in mind: without this law, the woman would simply be left unmarried and unmarriageable. The remedy for this tort is that the man must give her social status and support her financially for the rest of her life. Sure, she gets a rough deal, but it's better than she would have got otherwise.
Ya, I'd give Sony the benefit of the doubt here. "Offensive" and "controversial" just might not be image they're looking for in this title. If their self-censorship undermined a critical plot point I could see getting upset about this, but this sounds like it's some throwaway background track that isn't worth the hassle.
"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool" - Jane Wagner -
The prior Pope did actually explicitly apologize for the crusades, among other things.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1071456
The current Pope has also apologized for other failings of the Catholic church.
You never know. It might be the start of something beautiful if he answers "No" and smiles at you the right way
Politicians and Pedophiles: Two groups of exploitive bastards who are most dangerous when they're thinking of children.
I don't recall the western world living in constant poverty in the centuries when women had no rights. Japan actually was in a BETTER economic situation when women had very little to no rights(the two facts aren't connected at all, just making a point).
The US isn't exactly known for electing great leaders either, often who do their crimes in the name of Christianity. *shrug*
Of course, there is also a "fire and brimstone", stone-the-gays minority
I can't tell how careful you're being with semantics. Do you mean to imply (as below) the majority of Christians are not homophobes, or merely that they don't drag gay dudes behind pickup trucks in 2008 quite as often as they did a decade ago?
Say what you will, that "brimstone" stuff plays pretty well in every church I've been to, and I've never set foot in the crazy ones.
Can you point me at the equivalent of the New Testament in Islam that would discard the laws such as stoning for adultery or beheading for apostasy, or name a mainstream Islamic school of law that considers those laws to not be in force today?
Not that I have any pretension you'll accept this as less than desperate apologism, but can you name the mainstream Sunni schools of thought, or describe their relations to each other? You can answer your own question googling e.g. "Hanafi adultery." Tough to do the penance for zina if you've been stoned to death. Where this happens, blaming Islam is about as sensible as blaming Thomas Jefferson for the DMCA.
Have you ever met a non-homophobe Muslim?
And again, google. Try "gay Muslim." Clever, I know.
How is this troll +5 insightful?
you can have my violent video games when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.
Prime UID Club
Hi, I'm a non-homophobe muslim.
Wish I could say I was pleased to make your acquaintance you ignorant, prejudiced and ill informed person, but I'm not.
- Tempestdata
Well it is, you know, kind of written in their religion that they have to kill the homosexuals.
I have a hard time believing that most people who call themselves Muslim actually practice and follow their religion. (Same goes with any religion, really.)
I don't get why people cling to religion. Sure, people say they're catholic/christian/jewish/muslin/etc, but that's usually a cultural thing.
The number of people who actually BELIEVE their religion is much, much smaller. And the number of people who actually adhere to their religion's laws is infinitesimal.
I apologize for my previous comment. It was made in anger. Apart from your prejudice showing, your post appeared to be that of a reasonable person.
How many muslim's do you know? How many countries have you known them in? How many different age groups, races, social classes have they belonged to?
You think that by talking to a handful of muslim's you have a grasp on the entirety of the beliefs of 1 billion+ people?
I am a non-homophobe muslim. My wife is highly educated and an equal partner in my marriage, she does not wear a burkha or even a scarf. I do not think Jews are evil, that America is a great Satan, or that infidels should be slaughtered en masse.
Do not presume to think that I'm a non-practicing muslim either. I've never had alcohol, or eaten meats I'm not allowed to. I fast, and I pray. I contribute to my mosque, I pay zakah, and have been for umrah several times. I hope to go for Hajj soon. Insha'allah.
The assumptions you make from a handful of individuals that you do not understand are the foundation of all types of bigotry. From relatively harmless ones like 'women are bad drivers', to dangerous ones like 'black people are dumber than whites'.
- Tempestdata
If the soundtrack featured "Hallowed Be Thy Name" by Iron Maiden, would the game be delayed? Would we be having this dicussion?
No.
If this was an attempt to negatively portray Islam, I'd agree with removing it - hate speech should not be being disseminated by any company with half a brain. But to remove content simply because of a vocal minority (especially one that is not usually even part of the target audience) is absurd!
He settled down and had a kid.
1. A good friend of mine who is a practicing Muslim is openly gay, and from what I understand, neither his parents, nor anyone that he worships with sees it as any sort of problem.
2. I have many Christian friends, and even the most liberal of them don't "discard" the old testament. There is a significant group that not only believe in the teachings of books such as Leviticus, but they believe everything there is the literal truth.
My point is that fundamentalist conservatism sucks in any religion, especially when it is abused by politicians.
I thought he said, "blessed are the cheesemakers."
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Pete Seeger and The Byrds are recalling all copies of "Turn! Turn! Turn! (to Everything There is a Season)", because somehow or another parts of the Bible got into it. Search your old vinyl and ship it back!
If you are arguing for the tribe's innocence, Amelek is probably the worse example you can come up with. IIRC, they raided the rear of the procession coming out of Egypt.
He's not being literal, he's referring to any maker of dairy products.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
I lived in a Muslim country and have visited several others, I also have Muslim friends in non Muslim countries.
First of all in countries were Muslims are not forced to fast you will find many that do not fast. Once they have the same freedoms as everybody else this becomes a matter of personal choice.
In countries were fasting is mandatory well, what are you supposed to do? (they do have religious police in those places).
Not all Muslims memorize the Holly Quoran, it certainly is studied assiduously and it certainly is well received if you can memorize it, but by no means is common.
Not all Muslim men have beards. This happens only in some very backwards countries. In other countries this is a non issue.
Muslim women dress modestly certainly, but there is a spectrum of interpretation. IN Indonesia and Malaysia women wear trousers, the ones that don't wear colorful batik dresses with flowers, this would be unthinkable in Saudi Arabia or parts of Afghanistan. In Turkey you will see plenty of local women wearing modern western clothes and mini skirts.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Its funny you mention elections, because the most prosperous Muslim-majority nations are the ones that are democracies (Indonesia) or closer to it on that spectrum (Pakistan).
According to this Wikipedia article, the biggest per-capita GDP, on a PPP basis, is... Qatar (a Muslim country).
Let's see which other Muslim countries have a better rank than your Indonesia and Pakistan: Brunei (#4), Kuwait (#9), United Arab Emirates (#14), Bahrain (#24), Oman (#36), Saudi Arabia (#38), Libya (#58), Malaysia (#59),
The first Muslim country that is a democracy is Turkey, coming at #61.
So whatever your point was... it was dead wrong.
Catalin Braescu
Ofaly.com
Per capita GDP is not a measure of prosperity, as it often hides tremendous inequalities in the distribution of wealth.
Its rather a bit like the old joke, "If Bill Gates walked in the room, our average net worth would be over a billion dollars." In the same manner, oil barons and royalty in those states are enormously rich, while the average person makes a pittance.
We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
As an atheist I am far more offended by the atheistic fanatics.
At least the religious people think that what I think matters if they are a dick about it.
The atheists trying to put down the religious are just dicks with no justification.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
I'm not aware of any Muslims who don't practice their religion quite seriously.
Why? You believe it is okay to violate others' 1st amendment right in order to uphold your.....right not to be offended? I can't seem to find "the right not to be offended" in the country's founding documents though.
Because the United States has no state religion. That separation between church and state doesn't exist solely, or even primarily, to protect the state from the church. It exists also to protect the church from the state.
It's perfectly reasonable for politicians to talk about their own religious beliefs. Hell, I'm a fervent supporter of Barack Obama, and he peppers many of his speeches with more religious references than any President since Carter.
But attempts to insert any specific religion into law or government are against the very founding principles of this nation.
And if you don't want to then that's fine too but don't stop someone else from doing so just because you don't want to participate. Do you try to stop any activity that you don't plan on taking part in just so others can't do it? If not, why draw an arbitrary line at trying to stop other people from practicing their religion? Mind your own business. No one is forcing you to do something.
Who's advocating stopping someone else from practicing their religion?
That's a wonder it was not shutdown merely because it would have been soooo easy for someone to accuse one of the teachers (or all of them) of actually leading it. Then again, at other schools, student speeches which have any hint of religion in them (well, Christianity) are not allowed at graduation ceremonies despite being student speeches, which is why I said before that those student prayer circles are lucky they weren't shutdown. In another school they would have been, unjustly so.
And yet amazingly after four years in a high school of around 2000 students in a relatively rich, liberal, Jewish neighborhood in Florida, it never did. Maybe the spectre of Christian persecution just isn't as prevalent as you think it is.
So what do you do when they make you recite the Pledge of Allegiance (with or without the "under God" phrase? Depending on how much you like Congress and the rest of the government that day you may not feel very patriotic. Are you going to eventually want it banned?
I say the Pledge of Allegiance proudly, in its form prior to being changed in the 1950s to include "under God." As for whether it should be mandatory in school, well no it shouldn't be, but it already isn't. Children aren't required to say it, though they are sometimes required to stand. Listening silently to the teacher-led Pledge of Allegiance, however, is a far cry from listening silently to a teacher-led Christian prayer.
On the one hand, you have "I pledge allegiance to the Flag..." While on the other you have "Our Father who art in Heaven ... Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven ... Forgive us our trespasses ... For thine is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory, now and forever ..." -- Which most certainly puts a teacher, as an employee of the state in a position of power over the students, into a position of advocating a particular religion.
I've never heard of any school system requiring students to recite the Lord's Prayer let alone hear of anyone banning it.
You haven't heard of it because the Supreme Court ruled it illegal in 1963 in Abington Township School District v. Schempp.
But actively forcing students to do something and supporting them when they want to do something (whether it is initiated by students or not) are 2 different things for which many secularists don't care to make the distinction.
As a matter of fact we do. That's why I asked the question about the ACLU. These are some cases argued by that mos
Way to quote things out of context. For example, you neglected to point out that:
"You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you." (Deuteronomy 28:53)
is proceeded by:
"If you don't obey all of the laws in the Old Testament, God shower you with the curses that are listed in the the next 52 verses."
At no point is God saying that people *should* do these things, rather he is threatening the people that if they do not follow the commandments terrible things will befall them.
And if you read further back in context you will realize why God even made such threats. The Jews weren't supposed to wonder in the desert for 40 years. They were supposed to enter Israel right after leaving Egypt. The above curse and 40 years of wondering in the desert are a result of "bad stuff" they did along the way which rendered them unworthy to enter right away. In short, they severely offended God once so he was just warning them to make sure they understood what happened if they did it again ;)
A religion is a social group, you can see this clearly if you ever are outside a church/temple/mosque after a session. This is especially true for muslim immigrants. NOT because they are muslim, but because they started out with little else. All imigrants tend to cluster together, to a place they can be among their own, follow their own traditions, remember the good old times, talk about going back but never actually doing it of course.
It is hard to break out of a social group and a social group can only function if it doesn't allow its members to leave. It is the nature of being a group. If you do not try to 'protect' your members, keeping them close, then you are not a group.
It really isn't about religion. African americans have got the same social pressure groups trying to keep blacks black and any who try to break out are pulled back in.
Part of the problem is that if you try to leave your native group, you will for always be an outcast. A black person living a white/asian/jewish life or whatever will still never truly be that. If you see a black amish guy, what do you see first. Amish or black? I use the skin color black because it is so obvious.
A muslim immigrant who truly intigrates into western society, and there are plenty, will still for always be considered by his new home to be an outsider. And of course an outcast by his old group. Having lived in foreign countries, it ain't that easy to always be the foreigner, the stranger. Sometimes it is just easier to stick with what you know because at least those people seem to accept you for you are. They don't, they only accept you if you are them, but at least they accept you.
Muslims are hardly the only homophobes on this earth and there are plenty of homosexual muslims. Part of the reason this sentiment seems so strong among muslims is because it allows them to have a clear identifier that differences them from their new society.
Basically, they got a choice, what fundemental rule do we follow.
Muslims are required by their faith to donate a percentage of their income to charity. So if you want to call yourself muslim, pay 10% of you salary. Nah.
Muslims are required by their faith to abstain from stimulants. So if you want to call yourself muslim, you got to stop smoking, drinking, chocolate etc etc. Nah.
Muslims are required by their faith to pay to the direction of Mekka 3 times a day. So if yu want to call yourself muslim your entire day schedule is dictated by your religion. Nah.
Muslims are required by their faith to look down onto gays. So if you if you want to call yourself muslims as a young teen in a world that doesn't like you and thinks you are the lowest form of life, you have to look down on another group. WINNER!
By that way, other groups got similar problems. US citizens when looking at the heroes and cowards of the world have two choices:
Look at their own war history, arriving late for every World War, getting their ass kicked in korea and having to settle for the current ceasefire. Being kicked out of vietnam. Being kicked out of somalie. Late the balkin wars and doing nothing to stop it. Afraid to interfere in various holocausts. Getting their ass kicked in Iraq and Afghanistan. Withdrawing after some suicide bombings etc etc. Nah
Look at the french war history where a country under massive attack surrundered after months of fighting with half the forces refusing to give up and to continue fighting no matter the risk and call them cheese eating surrender monkeys. WINNER!
Human nature. It ain't pretty.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
I do not think [...] that America is a great Satan
I do, but it has nothing to do with religion. /partly joking, but America has been doing some very questionable things recently.
Hardcore atheists define themselves by opposition to religion. Without religion, there would be only agnostics.
True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
The death penalty is a power too big for government to hold, but under no cases can it be even remotely defined as "murder".
Unless its another country doing it? That was sort of my point.
When Pakistan or Afghanistan or other $evil governments do it we (or at least our media) call it murder without hesitation. What is the fundamental difference when we do it?
We've freed some dozen death row inmates in the recent past due to -volunteer- efforts to exonerate them... the 'system' failed. If we execute an innocent man, how is that anything but murder? Especially when it comes out that the police deliberately buried the evidence on men they knew were innocent?
Not to mention the secret prisons, torture, suspension of habeus corpus and so on we've got going on...
Or our handling of Saddam Hussein. We deliberately set him up to get executed by having him tried in that kangaroo court in Iraq. Had he been tried here, he'd still be alive, perhaps on death row, but there is no way he'd have gone from captured to executed as quickly here.
Or we could talk about the Salem witch trials...
My point isn't to say that death row in the US is the equivalent of a serial killer. Its categorically not the same.
But the veneer of civilization and due process and fail safes that are supposed to ensure that it isn't is not as solid as we like to pretend.
Fanatics are the problem regardless of their clan. No matter which side of the fence they are on they simply use their beliefs as an excuse to justify an Ignorant pointless existence.
I personally think we need to stamp out all fanatasism, not just that of the religions the west dislikes.
Well, Bart, your uncle Arthur used to have a saying: "Shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out."