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Ubuntu Ports To ARM
nerdyH writes "Canonical will port Ubuntu Desktop Linux to the ARMv7 architecture. The announcement sets the stage for Intel to lose the traditional 'software advantage' that has enabled x86 to shrug off attacks from other architectures for the last 30 years. How long can it be before Microsoft responds with a Windows 7 port? I mean, x86 just can't do 'idle power' like ARM ... Nokia's N810 tablets can standby for several weeks, just like a cell phone, keeping you 'present' on IM, behind IPv4 NAT the whole time. The first Atom MIDs are standing by for 6-7 hours."
This sounds to me like a RISC-y proposition.
Is the OP serious about Ubuntu's port to ARM causing Intel to worry and Microsoft to follow suit? As much as it is a popular Linux distro, and as much as I personally like Ubuntu and wish this were true, I really don't think Intel is going to lose sleep over Ubuntu on ARM.
Perhaps I'm misreading the tone of the summary. I honestly can't tell if it's is tongue-in-cheek or serious. The absurdity of it makes me think it's poking a little fun, but it reads to me like the guy was serious.
Ubuntu alone is not going to "set the stage for Intel to lose the "software advantage"", or anyone else for that matter, by switching to ARM.
Sure, a few thousand people will be able to switch to an ARM device without blinking, but the rest of the 99.9% of the worlds computer users won't give a flying piece of monkey poo.
I am reading this summary as a complete joke.
We are having problems moving to AMD64, and those processors include a full speed x86 compatibility mode. Until there is an ARM7 core that has a full x86 mode I don't think it is going to go anywhere on eliminating the "software advantage" of x86.
We can't even get such smallish things as flash to be offered in 64-bit mode, so what happens to larger Windows only stuff?
Plus Wine wouldn't work, since it isn't an emulator.
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Has any desktop version of windows been ported to any other architecture? Methinks not, it would seem porting something as complex as windows to a completely different architecture would be an insurmountable task. I'm not knowledgable of their tools, but I think they'd have to write a new backend for their compilers, and that's just the tip of the iceberg...
Now that Ubuntu has finally ported to the ever-popular ARM architecture, maybe 2009 will be the year of Linux on the desktop!
With netbooks becoming increasingly powerful, perhaps it will finally become the year for linux.
Uhm... so Ubuntu is a derivative of Debian, and Debian has supported ARM for like... forever. Ubuntu just hasn't followed suit until now.
Not to say this isn't significant. Just give Debian some credit.
http://mediagoblin.org/
Xscale uses the ARM architecture and is built by Intel. So, either way Intel makes money.
---- aut viam inveniam aut faciam
Who the heck wants to run Windows 7 on a Nokia tablet? Nobody. Microsoft already has Windows Mobile, which works fine on ARM as well as other architectures. Windows 7 is designed for the PC/laptop where it stays on x86 solely to provide that Windows feature that Linux enthusiasts always seem to miss, namely that *all the apps anyone has written for Windows will continue working*. Don't count on x86 to be more power-hungry than ARM forever either; it's been improving in leaps and bounds.
there are flash plugins for ARM, mind :)
Who the heck wants to run Windows 7 on a Nokia tablet?
Who the heck wants to run Windows 7?
Who the heck wants to run Windows?
And..
*all the apps anyone has written for Windows will continue working*
Yeah, this is true, since _no_ apps works in Windows - they'll just keep not working.
I second these thoughts fully - I _WANT_ to see Ubuntu on ARM as a hobbyist.
Downside: It might make the next batch of Pandora preorders sell out that much faster.
FWIW:
http://www.debian.org/ports/arm/
Well by ARMing Ubuntu, they'll be prepared to wage war on other OSs.
Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
*all the apps anyone has written for Windows will continue working*
One slight problem with that.
Whilst the software may indeed run, will it be comfortably usable on a small handheld touch device?
can you see yourself being comfortable clicking a 10pixel OK button on a 225dpi screen?
I see the benefit of this because having a stable backend to build a whole new set of applications is extremely important.
liqbase
Plus Wine wouldn't work, since it isn't an emulator.
Some sort of "Wine CE" would probably work. Windows Mobile runs on ARM CPUs.
Who the heck wants to run Windows?
People who have clients or suppliers that use (the advanced features of) Microsoft Office. People who play indie video games or game mods (because consoles don't have mods). People who live in areas where the only banks use ActiveX for individual accounts (I've heard this is the case in parts of the Republic of Korea).
I see them doing this on the 7th of never.
Think Flash sucks on AMD64? Just wait for Ubuntu on the ARM, where you can't run Flash at all.
Seriously, netbooks are useful for a small subset of tasks, and crippling web browsing doesn't exactly make them very appealing.
My Nokia n810 is everything I wanted my Newton 2100 to be several years ago:
- smaller
- color
- built-in board
- integrated wireless lan
However, it lacks much of what made the Newton lovable. Perhaps a full Ubuntu port will let me push the limits. Multi-touch X and an alternative window manager would do a lot.
We can run Android, but it's less than optimized for the n810.
We can also run Einstein (http://www.oreillynet.com/mac/blog/2007/07/if_iphone_is_too_closed_try_ne.html) for the full Newton experience.
What we need is the same level of hardware attention being paid to Atom, as in more specialized vendors producing high-performance ARM hardware. Someone please build an ARM device with HIGH Performance video, better clock speeds, more RAM and storage, and more expansion options (USB, Mini-PCI, etc..).
If I have to link it with a pocket-sized projector or external LCD panel, so be it.
You might have problems running x86 software on x86-64 operating systems on x86-64 CPUs. But many issues are specific to certain operating systems. Missing 64-bit browser plug-ins can be solved by running a 32-bit browser and 32-bit plugins. It's also possible to support 64-bit software on a 32-bit kernel (which could have prevented driver availability issues for those who insist on using 64-bit software when they don't need to use more than ~3 GB of RAM), but only OS X Leopard takes this approach.
Some operating systems don't have x86-64 implementations that make this easy. I like the approach used in Solaris and OS X; there are no separate x86-64 and x86 versions of either operating system. Solaris includes the x86 and x86-64 kernels and OS X Leopard uses a 32-bit kernel which can run 64-bit processes. They ship with 32- and 64-bit libraries, but most of the userland executables are 32-bit.
can you see yourself being comfortable clicking a 10pixel OK button on a 225dpi screen?
Windows dialog box elements aren't specified in screen pixels. Instead, they're specified in "dialog units", which are effectively a fraction of an em. If I set the monitor to 192 dpi, which is twice the common DPI on Windows, the OK button will be bigger.
I never bought into the hype for all these years that we'd give up desktops and do most of our computing on mobile devices. The screens were too small, they all had unique software, didn't operate with another, and couldn't perform the tasks I need.
However I can take a Nokia i810 tablet, install KDE 4 and have a modern, fully function OS on it that can do anything my desktop can do, and interoperate with my desktop.
Seriously, now we're talking. Give me a slightly better tablet with 1 gig of memory and then I'm not sure I'd look at a laptop again.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
We are having problems moving to AMD64
ORLY?
I run 64 for years now, and the _only_ problem I encountered was the lack of a Flash plugin, and I hope this will be rendered obsolete soon (theora, svg+js,)
factor 966971: 966971
Gnuflash will come along. Flash is already available for some non-x86 architectures.
Who cares about windows-only stuff on a mobile internet device or a netbook?
As for the rest of Linux stuff, there are already arm ports of a hell of a lot of thing, debian runs fine on arm.
The only reason x86 has a software advantage is that it runs Windows (and DOS). Linux and others have been made to run on anything from bicycle shoe strings to galactic overlords, but if you want to run (desktop) Windows, x86 is pretty much your only choice.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
The only problems with AMD64 at the moment are related to legacy software and closed source software. Whilst the kernel and compiler obviously needed to be adapted, in user space land the changes weren't so great (an int is still 32 bits, etc.) Obviously sloppy pointer code also needed updating. But mainstream Linux distributions have supported AMD64 for years now.
You could probably run Wine under QEMU if you really want. But I doubt this is a showstopper - someone considering an ARM based system probably isn't that bothered about running legacy Windows applications.
the nokia n800 and n810 tablets have ARMv6 processors, not ARMv7. sadly, this won't help us in the least.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#ARM_cores
http://kered.org
There's no reason indie videogames can't move to linux.
Hell, pcsx2, the ps2 emulator, does both.
WRT office: are there advanced features of Office that only work in windows and not on their Mac version or through Codeweavers?
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
Stupid ARM numbering scheme. I thought the article was about Ubuntu on an ARM7. It took me quite a while to notice it was ARMv7 not ARM7. (Yes, they're very different things.)
True, which is why, aside from a very small set of closed-source applications for Linux (Adobe Flash and EVE being the main ones that I use), the premise of the summary that Ubuntu being available for ARM is going to change anything on the desktop is quite silly.
If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
I own an N810 and this is such an exaggeration as to be patently false. Not even Nokia claims you can get that kind of battery life out of these.
An N810 can only go about 48 hours between each charge. And that's if the bluetooth and wifi radios are turned off and all programs are exited. If the battery is new, you might get up to three days.
If you have the wifi radio on and are idling on IM, I'd expect that you could maybe get 12 hours of infrequent use and even that might be pushing it.
When actively using the device (browsing the web, listening to a stream, etc), the CPU kicks in and you'll get between 4 and 6 hours of use depending on what you're doing.
This would be awesome ARM is simple enough that I can actually build the computer myself. A little board I can put inside my monitor with a few usb ethernet all consuming a few watts (posibly with an FPGA for reconfigurable computing) would be so perfect and so fun for me.
Though the comments are a bit inflammatory, they are pretty close to the truth.
Debian has been on ARM forever. I've got a NSLU2 from a couple of years ago running Debian with zero issues and fantastic performance. http://www.cyrius.com/debian/nslu2/
I fail to see where this improves Canonical's chances of turning a profit. Dell's deal sure doesn't seem to have helped them very much.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Why not the more recent ARM9 and Cortex8?
What problems with 64 bit? 64 bit OS can run 32 bit applications. Yes, I do use "Flash", but I haven't had the urge to run it as a 64 bit application (why would I want to?)
"Windows only stuff" -- but, we have QEMU. Now, I must confess, I use QEMU to run ARM on x86, and x86 on SPARC, but you can use it to run x86 on ARM. Now, I could be mistaken (not needing Windows(tm)), but I thought QEMU x86 translation was good enough to boot Window(tm) XP.
If QEMU isn't suitable (performance), I would assume that another binary translator will be produced. (its just that QEMU is the -arguably- most popular binary translator in use). For performance, the WINE libraries could be deployed to make the "under-the-cover" APIs work at full native speed.
Actually, I would think that most Windows(tm) software does not use self-modifying code (for security reasons), and, as a result, could be statically recompiled, and re-linked against alternate (WINE-like) libraries. The technique is currently being deployed on old MS software (see /. for the story on deploying CBM BASIC, which is a statically recompiled 6502 BASIC).
I probably wouldn't use "C" as my intermediate language for this (SCHEME strikes me as a better choice), but it is well within the capabilities of "amateur" developers to do this.
The largest impediment is the copyright of the original work. It may take quite a while to recompile such an application, and the results would be a "derivative work". In other words, not legal to distribute. The recompiler itself would be legal. You probably won't be sued for distributing a recompilation of CBM BASIC, but MS Word of recent vintage?
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
There's no point in doing this. The reason people install Windows on their x86-based netbooks is so they can make use of the existing selection of Windows software titles. In the non-x86 world, there is no such thing, so the advantage goes to Linux.
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ARM kicks ass.
They really have made an excellent platform for making pda's/laptops and desktops, but few have really taken advantage of it so far. Just Set top boxes, and embedded platforms, which is where I have been using them.
I just don't understand why OLPC didn't use ARM...
I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso
I haven't tried using any advanced features in CrossOver, because frankly using basic features was enough of a pain. But Office 2008 dropped macro support, as well as a bunch of Excel add-ins. (And 2004's versions were still behind their Office 2003 counterparts.)
Benford's Corollary to Clarke's Law: "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
as an N810 owner I have to correct the nonsense written above:
1) it will stay standby for a few days at most
2) standby here means offline mode: no wifi, bluetooth, gps... nada
3) if you want to stay connected with the net (IM presence, mail moniroring), battery life is 6-7 hours max. Just looking at it eats battery.
There's no reason indie videogames can't move to linux.
Three reasons, as I understand it; kindly correct me if I'm wrong.
Distros like Familiar, Angstrom, Mamona etc are built from scratch for embedded CPUs. Debian is nice, but to get Debian on my old IPaq with internal 16MB flash is next to impossible, while Familiar builds the entire 12MB image with GPE and everything from scratch in a short evening. I like the packaging policies of Debian, but embedded usually needs a bit different approach. I'td be nice if Ubuntu/Canonical worked with OpenEmbedded on this. I recommend taking a look at existing embedded distros that target ARM, MIPS and PPC cores, there are several that do quite a few things better than debian. http://lwn.net/Distributions/#embed http://lwn.net/Distributions/#pda
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slashdot.org Errors found while checking this document as HTML5!
for individual accounts (I've heard this is the case in parts of the Republic of Korea).
Yeah, like all of it. IE domination, and not just for banks. Also Japan.
I think it's because of the double-byte thing, which was supported in IE before the alternatives, (but I'm sure someone here will clarify)
I hope they do a better job of this port than the HPPA port. I tried putting 8.10 on my HP Model 715/100, but there was no kernel package on the CD to finish the install!
Yeah, most current ARM cpus aren't much good for general computers (your run of the mill desktop or laptop). But don't forget that ARM was originally designed for use in Desktops, and derivatives of that design were for sale until a few months ago.
An ARM CPU could be great for a netbook or low power desktop -- the machines that currently use Intel's Atom. Multi-core ARM CPUs running >1GHz are on the way (or maybe they're already here, I haven't been keeping track), and they might easily have enough power (and power efficiency) for that task. Perhaps they'll be better suited than Atom.
The thing stopping non x86 platforms has always been software. FOSS avoids that problem -- if you have the source code then the program is only a compile away. Of course, Linux has long run on ARM CPUs, but open source programs weren't good enough substitues for what people wanted, so it didn't matter. Now, we may finally be approaching the point where people are willing to ditch their Windows, at least for simple tasks like the ones you'd do on netbook. Such an influential Linux distribution supporting ARM CPUs might finially make the platform viable.
Hell, perhaps a company planning an ARM based netbook asked Canonical to do this, and they saw the opportunity. This could be interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyonix_PC
If for instance I produced a POS till system
Why would it necessarily be a Piece Of Shit system? Buck up. I'm sure you'd do a fine job of it.
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Like getting better wireless support, better raid support. It should support motherboard raid setup without requiring people to jump through hoops and farting around with dmraid. There are probably a number of other issues that are far more important to work on than porting to and supporting another architecture.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
just one word: bahahahahahahahahahahaha
So we can run it on Elonex/Trendtac/CNM Minibook etc.
These are tiny Mipsel based laptops/netbooks which could use a decent OS instead of the crippled Linux version they run now.
Lots of people are getting mixed up, and/or saying "big deal Debian already supports it". ARM has a slightly confusing numbering scheme: ARM7, ARM9, ARM11, Cortex-A8 are processor models, whereas ARMv4, ARMv5, ARMv6, ARMv7 are their respective architecture versions.
Pretty much all current ARM devices are ARM9 or ARM11 based (smartphones, Nokia's internet tablets, etc). This means they are too old to run this :)
The Pandora, and other upcoming devices, are based on the Cortex-A8, an ARMv7 architecture processor and the most recent ARM currently generally available: this is what Ubuntu are targeting here.
Debian's ARM port is for any ARMv4t or higher currently, which includes ARM11, ARM9 and even ARM7TDMI. This is rather suboptimal for chips like the Cortex-A8 which have many, many more instructions available, so Ubuntu are indeed doing something different here.
3D acceleration support, various binary-only drivers, flash player.
Also, it might take some time to tune browsers/JS engines on an arch with vastly different cache performance.
Of course all of this could get solved given some time.
Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
This is cool, however, I've been wanting Ubuntu (or any Linux version) on my Dell Axim X50v for ages. It would be awesome (really REALLY awesome) if they could make a Wubi clone for Windows Mobile, so you could install it and dual-boot a device with its existing OS. I have a 16GB CF in my X50v so plenty of room for the second OS, the problem is getting it to boot.
ARM is a much bigger threat to PowerPC than to x86. Especially since Apple ditched PPC in favor of x86, most PPC is embedded, where ARM is the biggest alternative. ARM is much cheaper to design into embedded HW than is PPC, even though PPC is more powerful. But embedded HW often doesn't need the power of PPC, especially when embedded merely as the control processor for lots of DSP or FPGA horsepower that is the point of the part. ARM usually wins in those designs.
With Ubuntu running on ARM, PPC might have just taken the blow that reduces its competitive advantages into a lower category than either ARM or x86.
--
make install -not war
Debian has had an ARM port for years, so why is this news?
I used to run Debian on my old Archimedes, and then RiscPC which had a StrongARM (earlier version had ARM7 chips).
You do know that Ubuntu is Debian with some fancy graphics effects and dumbing down don't you?
Jees, has Digg made its way to Slashdot?
#include <sig.h>
As a top quality news source, TFA doesn't link to the actual Canonical announcement.
http://www.ubuntu.com/news/arm-linux
Does anyone have any idea what reference platform they are using to develop this and if there is a way for me to obtain it relatively cheaply?
there are flash plugins for ARM, mind :)
There are no plugins for Citrix for ARM. Atleast none released in the past 8 years or so. I'd love to be able to integrate Linux in my work environment, but we're heavily into Citrix, and last I checked, there was no ARM support.
Don't ping my cheese with your bandwidth!
I have a sealed copy of Windows NT4 for PowerPC. Never seen a machine that supports it though - New World Powermacs can't boot it.
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
If anything, this is pretty cool for the Pandora project.
And the Dell Lattitude ON : basically, an embed OMAP like Pandora's, which can boot (speedy) instead of the main Intel CPU, and thus allow the user to check mails, surf web, etc... without starting a full fledged Vista nor eating the battery fast.
(think like SplashTop, but running on a separate CPU that eats a ridiculously small amount of Watts)
And also for the Beagle Board : basically a bare-bone pandora-like motherboard.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Now that's an interesting idea... I think I might need to try that out with something simple (say, minesweeper)
Since you are decompiling, you could theoretically decompile to any language of your choosing, correct? I understand the output is ugly either way.
Would it be as simple as sticking an include for winelib and then dealing with super-secret-api stuff on a per-case basis? Or would this be more involved?
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
There are already RISC netbooks available running MIPS and ARM. They're half the price of x86 netbooks and run a custom build of Linux ... but Firefox is identical. Because GNU/Linux is in fact identical on all platforms.
ARM and MIPS based laptops, for a given price point, will run cooler and faster than any x86 can. x86 chips these days are a RISC core with an instruction set interpreter on the front, but that interpreter is enough of a liability for the RISC to have the edge.
And you won't get Windows 7 on them.
http://rocknerd.co.uk
Are you sure about that? Intel have been working on Atom and say it's better than ARM now,
Even back in April, atom had an idle power range of 80-100mW.
Plus Wine wouldn't work, since it isn't an emulator.
WINE Is Not An Emulator
Flash runs just fine on the Nokia 800 series (ARM based). And because it has more similarity to a phone then to a desktop, I would not want to even try running EVE on it, controling that with a stylus would probably be kind of cumbersome. Ps. same goes for netbooks.
Well let me gues was it windows mobile 2003 or was it windows CE 2.0 ;)
It was all several years ago, i liked those operating systems.
And now ubuntu also has joined the ARM processor, well beter late then never
No seriously i realy doubt the x86 design is that good if you've seen what ARM can do.
Also we can go to Quad or even OCTA processors at terra hertz.. but its just a deadend road.
New designs are required more effecient designs, more greener designs.
it might be intresting to know that also visualstudio offers several chipsets as used in PDA not only arm and x86, and hack there has even been risc support in NT4.0... (it was verry lately abandoned in 2000 it was till some BEta version suported)
I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/Info/Performance
Very, very powerful little devices, quiet, and worth every penny.
If you watched the ordering a day after the initial sellout (see the October 2nd news on the Pandora site), they extended the purchasing period for a couple more days telling buyers that whatever higher number was ordered over the next few days would be the number they would order from their supplier. So as long as people didn't give up in the first hours, which unfortunately since everybody seems to remark that they sold out and people got stiffed it seems people did, then people that knew and wanted them were able to order.
Presumably it will be the same way for the next batch. If you want them, order it and I imaging they'll figure out how to fill your order.
It's on my list already ;)
Well, Ubuntu will have to go there anyway, subnotebooks (netbook is a PSION trademark) have been announced with ARM soon, so they can't escape.
:D
You know what's funny, intel will make money on those anyway, since they also have ARM licences
Oh well, must finish my m68k port first...
Generally, just stick in winelib. Of course, the code will be ugly -- mov eax,0 would become "eax = 0;" mov ax,0 would be something like "eax &= 0xffff0000;" or "eax = (eax & 0xffff0000) | 0;" -- assuming of course C as a target. Flags are the "trickiest" to deal with. A rolling queue of generated instructions that goes back to the last instruction that could possibly have set a flag, along with the possibility of "slow" generation vs. slightly faster generation (without the flag effects).
Just some ideas... Also, look at QEMU; it does it dynamically. Statically is preferred, for performance.
If you do it... have fun with it!
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
You mean Gnash? It already runs fine on the ARM processor. And PPC and MIPS, and *-64.
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
As a PPC Linux user I can tell you that Gnash is not ready for prime time.
A windows port to ARM would bring very little to the table...
Most windows apps are released as binaries for x86 so they wouldn't run on the arm version, and people wouldn't want to use the OS if it had no apps. The advantage with linux is that most of the apps come with source, so it's relatively easy for a distributor to compile a huge selection of apps for the arm architecture.
A direct port of windows 7 would be only one step up from the current windows mobile offerings, in that it would theoretically be possible to recompile an application rather than having to do significant porting work, but a lack of available source code for most apps will hinder it's adoption.
The very reason many commercial desktop/game apps are not ported to linux (small desktop market share means no ports, no ports discourages users) would severely hinder or scupper any attempt to port windows do a new architecture too.
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Does this mean I can run Linux on my old Acorn computer, because I love it!
http://nathanlindsell.blogspot.com/
Wait, WINE is not an emulator? They could have made that clearer...
Let's hope they do not just focus on the hand held devices, but also on those funky little NAS-boxes like the Linksys NSLU2 and those newer Orion devices that Debian (mostly) supports. Every geek needs a cheap and energy efficient home server! That would be a great way to promote Ubuntu on the server: to have one in every home.
First download on this page is a Linux ARM ICA client.
Yes, technically there is an ARM client. Have you tried using it? It was released in February of 2000. Yes. February, 2000. Let me put this into perspective, the 2.4 kernel wasn't even released for another year! In areas that are heavily invested in Citrix, ARM support for Linux is a must, and Citrix hasn't put in the development for any recent clients.
Don't ping my cheese with your bandwidth!
Last year, the folks at http://mojo.handhelds.org/ already ported Ubuntu to ARM. They have:
Icy aka Intrepid
Hasty aka Hardy
Grumpy aka Gutsy
all built for the ARMV5 and ARMV6 instruction sets with and with out VFP support.