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An In-Depth Look At Game Piracy

TweakGuides is running a detailed examination of PC game piracy. The author begins with a look at the legal, moral, and monetary issues behind copyright infringement, and goes on to measure the scale of game piracy and how it affects developers and publishers. He also discusses some of the intended solutions to piracy. He provides examples of copy protection and DRM schemes that have perhaps done more harm than good, as well as less intrusive measures which are enjoying more success. The author criticizes the "culture of piracy" that has developed, saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century, and piracy has apparently somehow become a political struggle, a fight against greedy corporations and evil copy protection, and in some cases, I've even seen some people refer to the rise of piracy as a 'revolution.' What an absolute farce. ... Piracy is the result of human nature: when faced with the option of getting something for free or paying for it, and in the absence of any significant risks, you don't need complex economic studies to show you that most people will opt for the free route."

504 comments

  1. Piracy is the result of human nature by gardyloo · · Score: 5, Funny

    Piracy is the response of all good, thinking people to an epidemic of Ninjas.

    1. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why isn't there a +1 bonehead option?

    2. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by cpghost · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Piracy is what happens near Somalia right now. Oh, you meant copyright infringement? Nevermind...

      --
      cpghost at Cordula's Web.
    3. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by chaoticgeek · · Score: 5, Funny

      I still hold to the picture I found online somewhere that explains copyright infringement and piracy. It defines piracy as "Stealing shit on the high seas." Which I find to be much better than what most people say it is... Not to mention it is so much more funny when people bring up piracy and I ask them when they started stealing shit on the high seas.

      --
      hello
    4. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by johnsonav · · Score: 4, Funny

      That reminds me of when I went to the computer store to buy a new laptop. The salesman asked me if I'd like to buy a mouse too. I told him no. I didn't think it and my cat would get along.

      --
      ... and that's when the C.H.U.D.'s came at me.
    5. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by KDR_11k · · Score: 5, Funny

      Piracy is the attack on a ship or airplane over international waters using another ship or airplane. Unfortunately sky pirates don't seem to exist, they'd be so damn cool they'd counteract global warming in a chinch.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    6. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by ConanG · · Score: 3, Funny

      Sky pirates sound cool, but it might not turn out the way you imagine.

    7. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by prestomation · · Score: 5, Insightful
    8. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by infonography · · Score: 1

      Somalia is full of Ninjas too?

      --
      Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
    9. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by anagama · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So if "piracy" can only refer to seaway robbery, does "hacking" only mean to chop a physical object in a random manner with a bladed instrument? Or is our language flexible and capable of multiple meanings and nuances?

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    10. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Si-UCP · · Score: 4, Funny

      Piracy is the response of all good, thinking people to an epidemic of Ninjas.

      What are you talking about? There's not a ninja in si

    11. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Ainu · · Score: 2, Funny

      I hear that the Chinese navy is going to be deployed to fight the pirates... how ironic!

    12. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 3, Insightful
      We already have a well defined legal term for the crime. Why muddy the water by pulling in other words, especially ones that bring to mind the most violent and henious types of villainy?

      On an aside, "hacking" to refer to the illegal use of computers only arose from the term used to describe people who were particularly competent with computers. Little to do with physical "hacking".

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    13. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by s_p_oneil · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, if they're in the US, they're getting the torrent from ThePirateBay (which is in Europe), and they're downloading pieces of it from all over the world, then technically you could say they're stealing shit on the high seas. After all, most of the international tubes pass through the high seas.

    14. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      In this case the poster is making reference to the legal definition of piracy... ie - there's nothing on the law books that describes piracy as being "making a duplicate of a legally purchased media (be it game, movie, music, etc) so that it can be used the way the owner wants (ie - on an alternate operating system, or without the disc in the computer, or on some portable media player, or even a disc without menus - goes straight into the movie so that your child can watch their favorite episodes of Elmo or whatnot without having fiddle with the remote)...

    15. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by anagama · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, that's sort of the point isn't? The term "hacking" has multiple meanings some of which aren't related to each other and some of which are.

      Why make language drab and limit copyright infringement to a single word? We don't do that for other activities, e.g., murder: off, end, terminate, hit, rub out, take out ... taken alone each synonym has a completely unrelated meaning.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    16. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by spazdor · · Score: 1

      Um, no one is using "piracy" to refer to the activities you're talking about, neither legally or colloquially. At least represent your opponents honestly.

      Have you honestly never heard of "piracy" to refer to "reproducing and redistributing a piece of software protected by copyright"? Not even in the 80s?

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
    17. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by pm_rat_poison · · Score: 1

      It's a joke. Laugh.

    18. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Riachu_11 · · Score: 1

      I think you're talking about this image. It's quite useful to make a point to people who don't understand this.

    19. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by chaoticgeek · · Score: 1

      Yes I am, thanks for the link.

      --
      hello
    20. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The english language is certainly flexible and capable of nuance. Sometimes, that can be used to create a problem.

      This is more about not letting the wrong people define the terms and the argument.

      If they used the word theft then the fact that no one was actually deprived of their property would keep coming up, so they have demonized the act of file sharing using the word piracy.

      File sharing/copyright violation does not equal theft OR piracy.

      Copyright is not supposed to be a permanent entitlement program for anyone.

      "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts" was the first stated purpose of U.S. copyright. The U.S. Constitution ratified in 1788 proposed to do that "by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries." The first U.S. copyright law, passed in 1790, protected books, maps, and charts if they were created by residents or citizens of the United States. The term of their exclusive right was a mere 14 years, with the right of renewal for 14 more."

      ( from http://www.libraryjournal.com/article/CA158872.html )

      The extension of copyright beyond that original 14 + 14 years is clearly theft from the public domain.
      Sadly the people with the money are going to keep screwing us using our government and legal system for as long as we let them.

      Do you really think that anything created today should still be paying it's creator for 28 years let alone the Life plus 70 years that the current perversion of copyright allows?

      And exactly when does current copyright start
      "Promoting the Progress of Science and useful Arts"? After 140 years? At that point there is so little remaining relevance you may as well forget the public domain entirely.

      How much 140 year old music do YOU listen to?
      And don't forget, due to the application of copyright to performances it has to have been RECORDED 140 years ago.
      How many 140 year old books have information relevant to ANY of your needs or existence?
      Hell how many 140+ year old books do you own?

      No, file sharing is not theft or piracy.

      However, copyright beyond the original 28 years is theft, from all of us.

    21. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by psnyder · · Score: 1

      Why were you modded as a troll?! Piracy actually DOES happen near Somalia right now, and it's a serious problem. Do people not know it's going on? Did some moderator not get it?

    22. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      You mean this picture: http://www.filesavr.com/i/piracy.png

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    23. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      The term you're searching is "cracking". Or what do you think a kernel hacker is?

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    24. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by JM78 · · Score: 1

      Please. This is English! Not some other stupid language with multiple words which are spelled the same but pronounced differently.

      --
      I am Jack's smirking revenge.
    25. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Copying something and distributing it to others without the permission of the original creator has been called Piracy for more than two hundred years - longer than many modern English words have even existed.

      Get Over It.

    26. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Phil06 · · Score: 0

      Great song by Eric Burdon and the Animals

      --
      "...and yet, I blame society" Duke - Repo Man
    27. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by gzipped_tar · · Score: 1
      --
      Colorless green Cthulhu waits dreaming furiously.
    28. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by kumanopuusan · · Score: 4, Interesting

      [...] technically you could say they're stealing[...]

      Except that no one is stealing anything! There are technical, legal definitions of theft, which don't include the act of making digital copies. It would be difficult to make an unambiguous law so broad that it prohibited both burglary and file sharing. So — technically — you couldn't correctly claim that. Note that I'm not mincing words because I want to assuage my own guilt (I'm an amoralist.), but simply because you said "technically."

      Sophistry aside, it's hard to understand the purpose of largely unenforceable laws. The total prohibition of file copying doesn't have popular support. Even if a minority find it immoral or unethical, they will probably need to come to terms with the reality of it. Is it more likely that people will stop sharing files, or that the relevant laws will slowly change as public support for them wanes? From a historical perspective, the illegalization of file sharing does not seem very different from the Prohibition. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) The largest difference I can see is that illegal file sharing hasn't created a criminal class to supply its (cooperative, non-profit) black market.

      --
      Use of the words "good", "bad" or "evil" is almost invariably the result of oversimplification.
    29. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      And unfortunately both of those groups have begun rapidly losing numbers to the Assassins...

      Ow. Why... man in white hood... tell my girlfriend... she's awesome...

      AAHAHAHRHRHRHRGHHGGF.

    30. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That movie was so awesome.

    31. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe they're called pirates because they're killing the PC gaming industry and raping legitimate consumers.

    32. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I couldn't agree with you more. Copyright is supposed to be a contract between the creator (owner) of a work and society. In exchange for creating the work and letting society enjoy it, the Government (read People through taxes for enforcement) will provide them a protected monopoly on their own work for a limited time. After that time, we can finally collect on all our tax dollars given to protect that work using the public domain. By using cheap excuses like, the Internet, and giant corporations being competitive, many of our elected officials have betrayed us and sold out to interests seeking to maintain permanent copyright.

      Can't make money off of something you made after 10 or even 15 years? That's tough, but I guess it wasn't all that valuable to begin with. Also why should someone benefit from something they did over 20, 30, or even 40 years ago? Why should their children collect on their posthumously granted royalties? It is nothing but laziness and greed. As much as some people will blame capitalism, this is really not capitalism's fault either. This is the fault of Government skewing the market place to give giant companies a bigger competitive edge, while marginalizing the consumer. Less work has to be done on releasing a product with the promise of eternal enforcement. Capitalism will always take the path of least resistance to satisfy its ends but the big thing to blame is special interests manipulating the market to weaken consumers (customers) and strengthen publishing houses grasp on culture and society.

      I see piracy as a market force, even if it is illegal. Content producers try to impose restrictions on a work and people, being the resourceful machines we are, will find a way to work around it. All it takes is one person to figure it out and people will take the path of least resistance. This is why overly restrictive DRM is always bypassed and eventually fails. If Joe Blow can get a song, movie, or ebook, for the same quality easier, cheaper, and without being assumed as a criminal, they will do so. There is always a core subset of people interested in content that will always pirate it. This cannot be taken as a loss as it is inevitable and should be basically written off. When you have piracy happening over that core percentage, then it is time to rethink your market strategy. The problem with copyright enforcement today is that rather than adjusting to society and the market (what people want), Big Content wants to mend society to their seemingly dated market.

    33. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The English-language definition of stealing is "take without owner's consent". Seems like stealing to me.
      The legal definition of stealing is "taking money or property belonging to someone else with the intent of depriving the owner of its use or benefit". Piracy takes away the owner's right of distribution, and takes away the value of a product by illegally making infinite copies of it - kind of like counterfeiting money devalues the economy for everybody else.
      I don't see how you couldn't possibly see that as stealing. Unless of course you have some vested interest in morally justifying an illegal act?

    34. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      taken alone each synonym has a completely unrelated meaning.

      But that's just the point, isn't it? Take another term that's completely unrelated, fine, but don't take one that is related (by virtue, in the case of "piracy", of being an illicit and illegal activity as well).

      Put another way, if you call murdering someone "offing them", that's fine, but if you'll call it "raping them", you will create confusion.

      (And also note that the word "piracy" for "copyright infringement" was carefully chosen to sound much more nasty than the original term - a perfect example of a dysphemism. *AND* also note that it was also chosen to make it appear as if copyright infringement is something it's not: namely, a crime. Try polling your non-techie family and friends some time, asking them if "piracy" is a crime; how many do you think will get it right?)

    35. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by aj50 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Firstly, the word has been in use since the 1600s (wikipedia has citations) so it's not like publishers have recently made it up.

      Secondly, these days, pirates are more likely to be associated with romantic notions of living free and sticking it to the man, thanks their portrayal in stories like Pirates of the Carribean.

      --
      I wish to remain anomalous
    36. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by s_p_oneil · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But you are mincing words, though perhaps not to assuage guilt, and I will correct you. The difference is that you are not necessarily hurting anyone by buying and drinking a beer. Someone made that beer, and you paid him for it. Everybody's happy. If you steal it from him, you hurt him. If enough people steal it from him, he goes out of business. If everyone steals from every beer maker, soon there will be no beer makers, and no beer. Even during prohibition you had to pay for it. It's not like the mafia would have let you have it for free.

      When you steal a video game, you are hurting the company and people that created it, and often putting them out of business. So in every way that actually matters, it is exactly the same as stealing a beer. The only real difference is that it is much easier to steal the video game and get away with it. As a part-time game developer, I can tell you that the salaries for being a game developer are poor and the hours are long (i.e. 60-80 hours/week). When a startup game company makes a game, it has an outside investor (usually a publisher) paying its salaries for the time it takes to make the game. Once that game is released, the investor/publisher stops paying everyone's salaries, and he has to regain his losses before the game company sees another dime. If the game is successful, it is likely to be heavily pirated, keeping the company that created it from ever seeing that dime. So bright developers and artists put in 80 hours a week to earn what comes close to McDonald's wages (when you count the number of hours) to get the game done before Christmas. If they get it done on time and the game is wildly successful on The Pirate Bay, instead of getting a bonus to make all that effort seem worth-while, they all lose their jobs right before Christmas. Merry Christmas guys. Great game, BTW. Too bad you won't be able to make a sequel to it. I would've been first in line to pirate it. ;-)

      While I agree they should not try to make file sharing itself illegal, they should still try to catch people stealing products like video games. You can't say it's not stealing because in every way that matters, it is stealing. If stealing it in one way is not technically against the law, laws can and will be changed.

      You can't call Prohibition an unenforceable law any more than you could call rape or murder an unenforceable law. If you took the percentage of people that were determined to have a beer during Prohibition, and you changed it to "this percentage of people are determined to break law X", then any law would be unenforceable. Laws like rape and murder are extremely difficult to enforce even now in the US. In a very large number of cases, no body or evidence is never found and the person is simply listed as missing. Statistics like "1 in 4 girls are molested/raped by the time they turn 18" are tossed about frequently. The more serious the laws are that are being broken in large numbers, the more our legal privacy protections will be removed. Laws will be easier to enforce, but some police will inevitably abuse their powers, and the pendulum will continue to swing back and forth.

    37. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure how carefully you read my comment. I said that I don't believe in the concept of morality and that I think piracy is inevitable, regardless of morality or legality.

      If you have good reasons to believe that piracy is unethical or immoral, then you're justified in believing that. However, it is unrealistic to expect the rest of the world to fall in line, even if you're right.

    38. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by ciderVisor · · Score: 2, Funny

      Why make language drab and limit copyright infringement to a single word?

      Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc.

      --
      Squirrel!
    39. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Golddess · · Score: 1

      I forget the exact reasoning, but languages tend to reflect that which is most prominent/important within the culture that uses it. Think Eskimos and their 200 or so words for snow.

      In an unrelated note, has anyone ever noticed how many ways you can refer to masturbation/sex in the English language?

      --
      "I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
    40. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We could go even further, and have just one word mean everything!! And we could use the word "a", so we'd have no problems with spelling, and no need for a dictionary!

      a a a a a a

    41. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by kumanopuusan · · Score: 1

      From your description of the business model, it seems like the sales of previously released games are used to commission the production of the next game. In a hypothetical future world populated only by pirates, there are no sales dollars, and so no new games get made.

      Couldn't the business model be changed slightly so that the game is released after players contribute enough to pay off its development? (It's been called a ransom.) Even today gamers have to pay for games they haven't played yet when they purchase from retail stores. I don't know if such a change is practical, but if the situation is as bleak as you describe, hopefully something will change.

      The Prohibition was unenforcable. To use your distasteful example, if the majority of Americans enjoyed raping others on a weekly or bi-weekly basis, it would be impossible to arrest and try all of them, as well. Consider a rape trial where it's likely that the judge or the prosecutor and most of the jury are open and unapologetic rapists.

      Maybe more importantly, the Prohibition actually led to increased drinking:

      When Prohibition was introduced, I hoped that it would be widely supported by public opinion and the day would soon come when the evil effects of alcohol would be recognized. I have slowly and reluctantly come to believe that this has not been the result. Instead, drinking has generally increased; the speakeasy has replaced the saloon; a vast army of lawbreakers has appeared; many of our best citizens have openly ignored Prohibition; respect for the law has been greatly lessened; and crime has increased to a level never seen before.

      -John D. Rockefeller, Jr.(stolen shamelessly from Wikipedia)

      --
      Use of the words "good", "bad" or "evil" is almost invariably the result of oversimplification.
    42. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Hojima · · Score: 1

      I ask them when they started stealing shit on the high seas.

      well since we're getting technical, would you like to explain a pirates affinity to rob others of their feces?

    43. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bleh. Yet again...

      The English-language definition of stealing is "take without owner's consent". Seems like stealing to me.

      Well, you're wrong, according to the law, as well as the sense of morals and ethics of most people.

      The legal definition of stealing is "taking money or property belonging to someone else with the intent of depriving the owner of its use or benefit".

      Ok. But:

      Piracy takes away the owner's right of distribution, and takes away the value of a product by illegally making infinite copies of it - kind of like counterfeiting money devalues the economy for everybody else.

      Except it doesn't. The owner's right of distribution remains firmly with the owner. It hasn't been taken away. The owner still has it. It has been infringed upon. Which isn't allowed. But it hasn't been taken away. Infringing isn't the same thing as taking.

      You are aware that there's a difference, and that the law is very clear about it?

      I don't see how you couldn't possibly see that as stealing.

      Because it isn't stealing. It's really quite simple. Perhaps you need glasses? (sorry)

      Unless of course you have some vested interest in morally justifying an illegal act?

      I don't.

      But I'm really interested in knowing what your vested interest is, that urges you to portray the law and what it regulates as something it isn't. Do tell.

    44. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A a a a a a a a. A a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a, a a a a a a. A a a a. Your comment violated the "postercomment" compression filter. Try less whitespace and/or less repetition.

    45. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Felixk · · Score: 1

      The universe asked me/us to, and so I/we do.

      --
      Disseminate the Power!
    46. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, you're wrong, according to the law, as well as the sense of morals and ethics of most people.

      Oh, that's a shame. I guess I should have specified that I was referring to the ENGLISH-LANGUAGE DEFINITION of the word in that phrase, not the legal definition. I don't know how I could have possibly overlooked such a qualifier.

      Except it doesn't. The owner's right of distribution remains firmly with the owner. It hasn't been taken away. The owner still has it. It has been infringed upon. Which isn't allowed. But it hasn't been taken away. Infringing isn't the same thing as taking.

      Except it does. The owner's right to distribution includes excluding distribution to those who don't pay for content. This right has been taken away from the owner. The proof is in the pudding - if the owner still had that right, pirates wouldn't have the content. Perhaps you need to learn simple English, basic logic, and a little ethics wouldn't go astray? (sorry, only because I feel pity that you obviously don't live somewhere with basic educational standards)

      Because it isn't stealing. It's really quite simple. Perhaps you need glasses? (sorry)

      You're right about one thing, it is quite simple. Thieves like to make up reasons to justify their criminal behaviour, which includes such absurd acts like renaming crime so it doesn't have as much of an impact, and the criminals can feel better about themselves.

      No your honour, I didn't murder him, I just infringed on his right to life!

      But I'm really interested in knowing what your vested interest is, that urges you to portray the law and what it regulates as something it isn't. Do tell.

      Morals. Oh, and truth and logic too of course, but mainly morals. And, you know, like millions of others (but obviously not you), I create content, what some degenerates like to call "imaginary property", so I'm in a position to empathise what it would be like to spend years creating something then not get properly compensated for it. I pity you for not having that ability.

    47. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by hwsb · · Score: 1

      well, _technically_, the tubes pass through on the floor of the high seas, so they're not 'stealing shit on the high seas'. Unless those crafty pirates have submarines, in which case the ninjas are surely done for.

    48. Re:Piracy is the result of human nature by shnull · · Score: 0

      i bought everquest didnt i ? i bought world of warcraft didn't i ? i bought warhammer online didn't i ? ...

      --
      beware he who denies you access to information for in his mind, he already deems himself to be your master (SMAC-ish)
  2. saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Insightful

    saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century"

    I'm already there, you ignorant clod!

    People will pirate when it's overpriced. When it's right-priced, most people will gladly pay for it.

    1. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by ccguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When it's right-priced, most people will gladly pay for it.

      Yes, but that's subjective. For me, no game is worth more than $5. Not because I'm cheap, but because I hardly ever play, and if it do, it's only for a while. So if you want to get $50 from me you are going to let me play like 10 different games or so. Note that I would still play less time than most gamers.

      It's possible though that the model that they'd need to make me a regular customer is just not viable. I don't really care as these days I can live without games. But when I played a lot I couldn't really afford all the games I wanted, and now that I can -within reason- I just don't feel like playing.

    2. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Bobnova · · Score: 2, Informative

      saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century"

      I'm already there, you ignorant clod!

      People will pirate when it's overpriced. When it's right-priced, most people will gladly pay for it.

      That's my view. The last entertaining game i found that was decently priced ($20, rather then $60) also happened to be free of copy protection/drm, so i bought it. The fact that it was made by a couple of independents in various coffee shops on their laptops is a bonus, but the low price, addictive gameplay, and lack of DRM is what sold me on it. (In case you can't guess, this'd be World of Goo)

    3. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century"

      I'm already there, you ignorant clod!

      People will pirate when it's overpriced. When it's right-priced, most people will gladly pay for it.

      Not exactly accurate. When groups have posted songs for free on websites and only asked that they not be reposted to please download from their official site they wound up within hours on download sites. With some it's about money and not wanting to pay but with others it's about power and control. They get off on pirating material. All the numbers I've heard free downloads of copyrighted games far out number legitimate sales no matter the price point. The post accurately points out that when faced with the option of free or to pay most will go for free, not all but most will.

    4. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by collinstocks · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's what calculus is for. It's so that the people selling the software/music/media/stuff/whatever can graph the people willing to pay against the price. Then they plot their expected profits for each price against that in order to find the optimal price.

      People like you and me and anyone else who thinks the products are overpriced are not going to buy them. Either the companies making the products will be forced to lower the price to a more optimal one, or they will be able to keep it at the same price.

      The problem is that they are claiming loss of sales for piracy done by people who never would have bought the game in the first place since the price is not right.

      Granted, I am not a gamer and don't even bother to download these things since I don't have the time to play them, so take my gaming specific claims with a grain of salt.

    5. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by TomHandy · · Score: 2, Insightful
      But isn't that kind of like saying "No car is worth more than $2000 to me, because I hardly ever drive"? It doesn't seem like the general value of something (as opposed to the individual value you would place on it) should be dictated by what the smaller minority of people who wouldn't use it regularly would be willing to pay for it.

      Not saying you're wrong - I actually agree with you in general. As I've found myself playing less games, I've really cut down on paying $50 or $60 for a game when I know I won't play it for more than a few hours. I'll still buy a game if I know I'll get a lot of value out of it.

      But my main point is, I don't think they need to reprice games based on people like you and I who don't play much and therefore don't find full price to be worth paying. Going back to my car analogy, I wouldn't expect them to start selling cars for $2000 to satisfy the small contingent of people who rarely if ever drive and therefore wouldn't pay more than that for a car.

    6. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century"

      I'm already there, you ignorant clod!

      People will pirate when it's overpriced. When it's right-priced, most people will gladly pay for it.

      It's simple - you don't like the price, don't buy it. Wait for the price to drop. Simply because you don't like the price doesn't mean you can copy the item for free and somehow think it's not stealing.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    7. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to be very wise if I may say so, comrade. Surely you should choose what the right price is - a decider so to speak. And how many games should be made, their content, the times we play them, our careers, our opinions and basically everything else.

    8. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by HiVizDiver · · Score: 1

      While I admit I can't prove that they won't, can you prove that they will?

    9. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It's simple - you don't like the price, don't buy it. Wait for the price to drop. Simply because you don't like the price doesn't mean you can copy the item for free...

      He didn't imply that.

      ...and somehow think it's not stealing.

      It's not stealing. It's copyright infringement. Yes, it's illegal, and (usually) should be. Yes, it's (usually) wrong. But it's still not stealing, and yes, the distinction does matter.

    10. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Znork · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People will pirate when it's overpriced. When it's right-priced, most people will gladly pay for it.

      Overpricing is an intrinsic function of monopoly pricing. Revenue is maximized when raising the price would result in so many fewer copies sold that the extra per-copy income no longer outweighs the loss of copies sold.

      That means that prices will simply be raised until many consumers simply cannot afford it (arguments like the original articles claims about economies of scale simply indicate lack of economic understanding; less piracy would mean _higher_ price, monopoly pricing limits are completely driven by customer dropoff, economies of scale apply to competitively enforced pricing).

      The consumers making up the difference between those who would have bought the product at the lowest-possible competitively priced point and those who would have bought at the monopoly priced point are consumers for whom a free market system would have provided the good, while still allowing it to be produced. The loss of the value they would have derived is known as dead-weight loss, and is one of the most damaging aspects of monopoly laws like copyright. Piracy mitigates that loss of wealth somewhat, and introduces a certain element of competition into the market, keeping prices down, but it's a bad workaround for a problem that could be solved in more productive ways.

      So any kind of rightpricing is fundamentally impossible while the monopoly aspects of the IP system are intact. Articles like this one that buy the IP lobbies arguments hook, line and sinker (assuming ignorance) are hardly productive. The author should do a little less fast-forwarding and a little more actual studying of why the debate has moved beyond his views.

    11. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Paltin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except.... you can get a car for $2000.

      If no car is worth more to someone then $2000 , that person may very well end up with a car.

      Back in ye olden days, things were released to the public domain after a reasonable number of years--- effectively allowing the price to change over time.

      Nowadays, with copyright extended effectively indefinitely (few things that are made within my lifetime will have copyright expire within my lifetime.... ) there is a massive problem in how our culture is disseminated. File sharing has arisen partially as an effort to fulfill that gap.

    12. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Straw man arguments are lies.

    13. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by nEoN+nOoDlE · · Score: 5, Insightful

      After seeing indie games on bittorrent that cost 5 bucks if purchased I don't think your reasoning holds through. Some people will not purchase at any price, and will pirate it. Price is completely subjective and rarely dictates the quality of the product,, but the perception of quality. The iPhone App Store is a great representation of this. There are a lot of programs that are free, so people start to get the impression that all apps should be free. There are useful apps for $1 that some reviewers consider overpriced. You can't find an app on the app store, no matter the price, that some people will say is overpriced, when these are the same people who will go and buy a $60 game for their XBox, play it for less time than the iPhone app's usefulness, and not think anything of it. If games drop in price to, say, $20. People will find any higher variation of that price "overpriced" as their perception of the price of games now will be worth $20 instead of the $60 they're paying now.

      --
      Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
    14. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by decoy256 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I would actually tend to agree that video games should not be pirated, but other products I do not have so much of a problem with. For instance, music and movies... Have you seen the commercial they put at the beginning of some movies where it has the stunt coordinator or some such schmuck talking about how piracy could cost him his job and make his kids go hungry. I don't buy it. Movie studios still own the copyrights on movies made 50, 60, 80 years ago. That is FAR too long for anyone to hold a copyright.

      The Constitution gives Congress the power...

      "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries"

      But when people can "renew" these copyrights indefinitely, progress is not being promoted, but stifled.

    15. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by tomhudson · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In general, if something is priced right, I don't mind paying for it. What this means is that I'm a bit of a sucker for sales. The idea behind sales is - "sell to the general public at the retail price, then sell what's left at a sale price to maximize profits." It means that those who ae willing to pay a "premium" to have it right away buy it, and those who aren't in a rush can still become customers at the sale price.

      So yes, I agree that high prices don't justify copyright infringement. Then again, how much is there out there that's even worth the cost of a blank dvd?

      As to games or songs, I simply can't be bothered. I don't have time to play games (I'd rather read a book, and guess what - I buy them, I don't pirate them) and I got sick of listening to mp3s a long time ago. I want *QUIET*. That's why I prefer my laptop to my desktop - no fan noise.

      Software? gnu/linux distros do everything I need it to do, both at work and at home.

      As for the people who claim that all pirated game are lost sales, they are wrong. Many of those "lost sales" would never have been made, just as Microsoft can't count me as a lost sale since I use a different OS. I'm simply not their customer, just as many of those "lost sales" would never have taken place if piracy prevention were 100% effective. This is similar to their problem with people selling used games. People sell their used games mostly so that they can buy new games, so it's not like the money doesn't get to them anyway, and the used games "grow the market", same as selling a used car.

      The industry is finally seeing the light in a few, rare, instances, and switching to different revenue models - in-game ads, online content, subscription models, etc. In other words, there are solutions that bypass the whole "piracy" problem, rather than treating the customer like a thief.

    16. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by GuerreroDelInterfaz · · Score: 1

      saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century"

      I'm already there, you ignorant clod!

      People will pirate when it's overpriced. When it's right-priced, most people will gladly pay for it.

      Once upon a time, in the Atari ST times, I bought every release of the CAD3D/CyberStudio suite. When it moved to the PC, changing its name to 3D Studio, the price was multiplied by *30*, more or less. So, when I also had to move to the PC, I did not of course gave a penny to Autodesk for a badly ported program on an inferior platform...

      --
      El Guerrero del Interfaz

    17. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      blazejgajewski@gmail.com

    18. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's where the second hand market comes in. Need a cheap car? Buy a used junker. Don't want to pay $50 or $60 for a new game that you'll only play for a couple hours? Buy it used. Oh wait, they want to use DRM and activations to shut down that market too.
      Fuckers.

    19. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      No, I'm just saying that price affects the point at which people will stop trying to even bother justifying copyright infringement. At $1/song, many songs are copied. At $0.10 a song, there'd be a lot fewer. At $0.01, who'd even bother to go looking for illicit copies?

    20. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by tuxgeek · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Piracy is stealing, plain and simple. Programmers that work on game projects put in long days and many hours and do this for a living. The game industry is simple economics. Invest a pile of time/money to design a product and produce it. Sell many copies at a reasonable price and if you're lucky make your wages and an ample profit. Some games bomb and the producers lose money.

      Piracy is stealing, plain and simple. Game and software pirates are taking food from from someone else's mouth. Come on /. nerds. Most of you produce software for a living as well. You all know better than to debate how you have a right to steal some other nerd's work.

      Stealing is wrong plain and simple. It amazes me when some low-life will risk getting shot to steal a $1 Mickey Mouse antenna ball from someone else's car in a parking lot. And yes, here in Alaska it is legal for anyone to carry a concealed weapon, no permit required. AND people have been shot for just wandering onto someone else's property uninvited. Now that is the ultimate "Get off my lawn !"

      --
      "Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
    21. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Nathrael · · Score: 1

      What? Something's a lie? Start cake jokes in 3...2...1...

      --
      A good education is a bit like a STD - it makes you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and gives you a desire to spread it.
    22. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As for the people who claim that all pirated game are lost sales, they are wrong. Many of those "lost sales" would never have been made, just as Microsoft can't count me as a lost sale since I use a different OS. I'm simply not their customer, just as many of those "lost sales" would never have taken place if piracy prevention were 100% effective. This is similar to their problem with people selling used games. People sell their used games mostly so that they can buy new games, so it's not like the money doesn't get to them anyway, and the used games "grow the market", same as selling a used car.

      I agree - most of the pirated software would not be bought; so saying we loss xx billions/year to piracy is simply wrong. All their seeing is there is a large demand at a free price point - demand that goes away as price rises.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    23. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by b4upoo · · Score: 1

      Even more so, perhaps people have come to see the economic and socio-political systems as a set-up designed to do harm to many for the benefit of too few. Once that conclusion approaches one becomes radicalized and not only of little use to society but a real threat. Good and reasonable ideas are not easily weeded out. People like the recording industry middle men are creating radicals among us. They may not like the ultimate consequences.

    24. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by melikamp · · Score: 4, Funny

      For me, no game is worth more than $5. Not because I'm cheap, but because I hardly ever play, and if it do, it's only for a while.

      You, sir, are a terrible consumer, and should be ashamed of yourself. What is next? Christmas becoming a holiday of the spirit, with no shopping involved? People like you doomed USA.

    25. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by ccguy · · Score: 1

      You, sir, are a terrible consumer, and should be ashamed of yourself. What is next? Christmas becoming a holiday of the spirit, with no shopping involved? People like you doomed USA.

      Thanks for the compliment :-) However I'm busy dooming my own country with my cheapness.

    26. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by ez151 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      "People will pirate when it's overpriced. When it's right-priced, most people will gladly pay for it." What do mean right-priced? Does the saleswomen have to take you in the back and suck your dick for it to be right-priced? It is called stealing. plain and simple. I do it and i know it is stealing. i am poor so i can only afford a couple of $50 games a year. thats it. I admit it. Don't say they need a new business model, they need to keep up with todays tech, etc. You are stealing a game. it is no different if you go to gamespot and stick a game under your shirt and walk out. you just do it from your room/basement, whatever. No difference.

    27. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Draek · · Score: 1

      The thing is, both the iPhone app and the game cater to different needs, and while it's difficult to find a good Xbox360 game for $20, finding a free app for your phone that does what you want is significantly easier.

      To put the requisite Slashdot car analogy, it's like a painting and a car. The car is a much more time-efficient method of transportation than simple walking, and it can easily take not only you but your family and your belongings as well. While all the painting does is serve as decoration. Yet, a Picasso is worth far more than your old Pinto.

      Why is that? because there are few paintings at the level of Picasso's, while there are countless cars that serve just as well as your Pinto, and more are being made every day.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    28. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      I really hate having to pirate games that I've bought.

      I have a LOT of games. I don't want to keep all of the CDs on my desk. I keep disc images. If a program won't run from an image, I get a nocd crack so that I can play it.

      I spend a lot of money on games and it sucks that sometimes I have to pirate games that I have paid for.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    29. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Through the simple technique of Lock Bumping, virtually any lock can be picked within 5 minutes and without a trace."

      This shows the author knows very little about physical locks. Has he never heard of Abloy? Or umpteen other similar locks which are bump proof?

    30. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by schlick · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Also I'd like to debate that music and movies qualify as "useful arts" and therefore do not warrant protection under copyright.

      Additionally, it says "to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right" not distributors. When did that right become transferable? This is the problem. Once the big media distributor were able to obtain these "monopolies" on products, it was only logical for them to seek to strengthen their power by extending the monopoly.

      The system is flawed, and I don't think our laws reflect the true sentiment in the Constitution.

      --
      "It's because they're stupid, that's why. That's why everybody does everything." -Homer Simpson
    31. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      While I admit I can't prove that they won't, can you prove that they will?

      Look at the money bands have made by offering downloads on a "pay what you want to" model.

      Trent Reznor has made no secret of how the Nine Inch Nails album Ghosts I-IV has sold. According to the band, 800,000 transactions generated $1.6 million in sales revenue in the first week of the album's availability, despite the fact that the 36-song version of the album is widely available on torrent sites.

      People could have gotten it free, but chose to pay for it. Proof enough for you?

    32. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by tomhudson · · Score: 1
      http://blog.wired.com/music/2008/03/nine-inch-nai-2.html

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/oct/02/digitalmedia.musicnews

      http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1666973,00.html

      Or look at iTunes. Don't tell me that the stuff there isn't available via bittorent elsewher. People still end up buying from iTunes, despite the "free altrnatives".

    33. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Babbster · · Score: 1

      I suggest that you read the goddamned article. The author goes into detail explaining why you and your ilk are wrong. Read it. It's a worthwhile way to spend a couple hours if you're actually interested in learning some of the facts about PC piracy, rather than blindly accepting the rationalizations and outright lies spread by those who either a) don't know any better and/or b) just want to keep infringing the copyrights of games because's it's fun and free.

    34. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by abbamouse · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That means that prices will simply be raised until many consumers simply cannot afford it (arguments like the original articles claims about economies of scale simply indicate lack of economic understanding; less piracy would mean _higher_ price, monopoly pricing limits are completely driven by customer dropoff, economies of scale apply to competitively enforced pricing).

      Yup. The claims that piracy results in higher prices are generally false. It results in lower prices for any given piece of software. Its real negative consequence is the result of the lower prices -- some niche software becomes uneconomical to develop since it cannot be sold for a price that will recoup development costs. So we get cheaper mass-market games and a dearth of niche games because of pirates (it seems that no game is too obscure to be pirated). The funny thing is that those who complain about the homogenization of culture by the RIAA may actually be contributing to it by making it unprofitable to sell lesser-known artists (or pieces of software) at any price.

      One last comment: There might be a price rise in some areas, where two pieces of software compete against one another. If both are pirated, the duopoly might collapse into a monopoly, with concomitant higher pricing. In theory, a new entrant might emerge -- but it may be that everyone knows duopoly pricing is unprofitable given the competition from pirates.

      --
      Make cheese not war 8:)
    35. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      In the same vein as the parent post...

      Piracy is the result of human nature: when faced with the option of getting something for free or paying for it, and in the absence of any significant risks, you don't need complex economic studies to show you that most people will opt for the free route.

      So says the summary; and the summary is correct. On the surface, this would seem to disagree with the parent post. However, it actually provides evidence that parent has his head on quite straight.

      There are a number of very significant risks involved with "the free route". If the majority of a class of product, provided for sale, is obtained for free, there is a risk that further developments of those products, as well as development of new products in that class, will cease. There's always the risk that future products will become more restricted and less capable, in response to the "piracy" issue. Of course, there is also the risk that "content" providers and creators will wake up and realize that there is a large fraction of the "pirate" community who would pay if the prices were fair. Just to name a few.

      I haven't outright bought a CD or DVD in years. I have downloaded a LOT, however. If I like it, I keep it; if I can afford it, I DO buy it -- only after downloading and previewing it. If I can't afford it, I'll ask someone to buy it for me for my birthday or Christmas.

      Why? By ensuring that the creator of the product gets paid, at some point, for the enjoyment I have derived from their work, I help to ensure that the first risk I enumerate is lessened. Obtaining it freely mitigates one risk, namely the risk of my wasting money I can't afford to waste, while increasing the risk that the content creator will understand why I've opted to try it before I buy it. I help mitigate the second risk I've enumerated by posting these explanations and doing my best to back them up.

      The whole system of paying to ensure that something will continue to exist, and exist in a usable, worthwhile form, really does work.

      The system of not paying for something because it is unfairly priced also works.

      The system of not paying for something until you're sure you like it, because it would be deemed to be unfairly priced if you find that you don't, also works. It worked for the software industry for years; it was called "Shareware". In fact, it's still very much alive, though now more commonly known as "Trialware". It does, indeed, wor.; I use some "Trialware" software which, while I have not paid for it, I have contributed to by assisting in tracking down and fixing bugs; in exchange for helping to make the product better, I was granted a free license for these pieces of software. Could I have done that without the free trial? Well, I could have reported bugs, but I would have been sued for copyright infringement, rather than given a free license; not to mention that, after being sued for trying to help, I'm not sure I'd have been so willing to assist the developer in tracking down the bugs I found.

      Does this apply to music and movies? To a point, yes, it does. While we can't help producers find and correct bad vocals or inconsistencies in storylines, we certainly can help them determine which artists and stories should get the most advertisement and development funding. If the "piracy"-to-purchase ratio is favorable, one would hope producers would take that as a sign that they need to focus their work on those artists and stories.

      It's free market research. What more could they ask for?

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    36. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by buddyglass · · Score: 1

      If it were impossible to play games without paying for them, or music, or movies, I suspect that many of those who currently opt out of paying would, in fact, pay for some content. Maybe not to the extent that the media companies suggest, but I suspect the amount would not be insignificant.

      An acquaintance of mine is a high school student. His laptop is chock full of music and movies that he's downloaded from one place or another. Now, would he buy all that content legally if it weren't available for free? No way. He couldn't afford it even if he wanted to. But, on the other hand, would he completely forgo buying any movies or music (like he does now, since he gets everything for free)? Doubtful.

    37. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by rengolin · · Score: 1

      Yes, but that's subjective. For me, no game is worth more than $5. Not because I'm cheap, but because I hardly ever play, and if it do, it's only for a while.

      Hum, so Formula 1 cars should cost $10. Not because they're drivers are cheap, but because they only run one day month and cannot go outside the circuit

    38. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I agree - most of the pirated software would not be bought; so saying we loss xx billions/year to piracy is simply wrong. All their seeing is there is a large demand at a free price point - demand that goes away as price rises.

      That is the first cogent argument defending the pirating of software I've heard in the 30 years I've been paying attention.

    39. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Or look at iTunes. Don't tell me that the stuff there isn't available via bittorent elsewher. People still end up buying from iTunes, despite the "free altrnatives".

      Because it is easier to push the "Buy Now" button than it is to rig your computer up with a bunch of dubious torrent software, find a torrent, download it in either 2 seconds or 2 days (depending on the torrent) only to end up with dubious quality.

    40. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What kind of pseudo-intellectual babble is that?

      There is already a competitive market for creative works - if you don't want to play Spore you're welcome to play another game instead, and get your entertainment that way. Your whole argument is ludicrous, it suggests that a specific apple in the fruit store would have an infinitely high price because the fruit store has a monopoly on that specific, shiny, juicy apple ... unless you steal it, in which case the price becomes more reasonable.

    41. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by ccguy · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying what games should cost. I'm saying what are they worth *to me*.

    42. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by BronsCon · · Score: 1, Insightful

      When you steal a game from gamespot, you just cost gamespot money. Gamespot paid for the copy you stole.

      When you download a copy of a game, and this is the distinction between copyright infringement and stealing, you did not cost gamespot money. Gamespot did not pay for the copy you downloaded. You did not cost the game's author money. The game's author did not pay to produce the copy you downloaded. Unless you would have paid for the game if you couldn't have downloaded it, nobody has lost a sale.

      If you would have paid for it, you've cost the author AND gamespot both a sale. Unless, of course, you pay for it once you decide you like it.

      If you would have paid for it, you download it, you like it, and you don't pay for it when you can, you're part of the problem. If you don't fit all four of those requirements, the problem isn't you; it's the price or the product.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    43. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by zarthrag · · Score: 1

      Actually, at $1 per song, I'm damn happy. It's easier to pay a buck on itunes, and have a nice "easy" experience getting it onto my ipod, then to search bitrorrent and deal with mistagged files. But you're right - at 10-15+ for a crap album, you'll get no cash from me.

      --
      Why can't all fpga/microcontroller manufacturers just release free optimizing compilers???
    44. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by nEoN+nOoDlE · · Score: 1

      That's not a very good analogy because with the Picasso, there's only 1 in the world. There is no limit to how many XBox games or iPhone apps there could be in the world. There are iPhone games with PC equivalents where the PC app is much more expensive even if it has the same functionality. Was it any more difficult to make the PC equivalent then the iPhone app? No, but the value of iPhone games are seen as worth a couple bucks whereas the PC games are over $10.

      --
      Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
    45. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by rengolin · · Score: 1
      It's still possible to have a game right-priced, even if it's worthless to you.

      If I buy 1 game a year is too much, but when I do, I don't mind spending $50 or even $100 if I feel the price is right. I still play them once or twice, but the price was right.

      Take X-Plane. I've paid more than $100 including taxes and shipping for the version 9. I've played a few times and now it's somewhere in my HD. But the software is amazingly well done, no stupid root-kits or DRM, and I could easily get that via torrent. I just didn't.

      We shouldn't pay to *have* the media (pointless these days), we should pay to *please* the authors. Be it with games, music, films or whatever art.

    46. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Flawed reasoning.

      I can buy a film that cost 100 million to make on DVD for $30AU

      or I can buy a video game that cost 10 million to make for $110AU

      Just spastic. What I want is a game that lasts 3 - 6 hours, costs $30 I'd be very happy.

      Sorry a boxed copy of Portal the other day $30 sitting on the shelf. That should be the way of the future.

    47. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're not hurting them (whoever "they" are) any more by not paying and having the (music/movie/game) than by not paying and not having the product. Therefore downloading is OK. Uploading, however, is not.

    48. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey you and the morons that modded this up: It would be nice you actually read that post.

    49. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      The cake is only a lie if you have ADD.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    50. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The article is crap.

    51. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by kramerd · · Score: 1

      Reviewers who claim that $1 apps are overpriced are probably right, those apps may not provide $1 worth of use to them. The value of anything is not necessarily tied to the amount of time spent using it. Particularly, in the entertainment industry, the value of a product is how much it entertains you, not how long it does.

      If the value of a game was based on the time spent on it, every game would simply be a grindfest. It might take you 10000 hours to play through disgaea 2, and it might cost you $20 today. Fallout 3 will cost you $60. Fallout 3, in my opinion, is a better value, even though I might only spend 20-30 hours playing it.

      The point is that the value of a product is not determined by the price placed upon it by the manufacturer, but rather by the utility of the product.

    52. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

      If triple-A titles would cost $20, then kids would buy one about every week as opposed to buying one every 2 months and beeing disappointed about it. If game companies would actually do some market research, they would see that their products are overpriced.

      Ordinary kids simply cannot afford the current prices, they do not have the money in comparison to the demand created by the advertisments of game companies to buy all this boring and mentally retarded monster shooting/killing/torturing/burning other people alive game shit.

    53. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by quintesse · · Score: 1

      Ehm of course it's much more difficult to make the PC game. There are no PC games anymore that haven not taken large groups of people many years to create. The iPhone isn't even on the market long enough yet to have invested that kind of time. Most of the programs you see have been made in a matter of weeks or months. The fact that for some programs you can find literally dozens of version is proof of that: there would be no reason to invest years of work if there are already many alternatives, but there _is_ a reason if the effort is small enough and the pie (the market) big enough.

    54. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 4, Informative

      Also I'd like to debate that music and movies qualify as "useful arts" and therefore do not warrant protection under copyright.

      Well, that's actually a fairly common misconception. When the Constitution was written in the mid-18th century, the 'useful Arts' meant applied technology, and 'Science' meant knowledge, generally. Thus, the useful arts are the subject of patents, not of copyrights.

      This is clear if you look at the construction of the clause, which always goes copyright, then patents: The Congress shall have power ... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.

      There are some other remnants of that meaning of art: Patents are concerned with state of the art technology. But a patent can't be issued if the invention is already disclosed in prior art. And the patent has to be written so that it can be understood by a person having ordinary skill in the art.

      So music and movies don't have to be useful, they just have to contribute to the corpus of human knowledge, which is very difficult not to do.

      When did that right become transferable?

      It has always been transferable, all the way back to the first real copyright law, the British Statute of Anne, in 1710, and in the first US copyright law, the 1790 Copyright Act. Remember, copyrights are not directly valuable to authors. They're basically publishing monopolies. The author makes money by selling the right, or licensing the right, to a publisher. And generally, publishers would prefer to buy rights, rather than merely license them. So they pay more for the former than the latter, and often enough, won't even bother with the latter. Since there are plenty of authors hoping to get published, the market favors the publisher. Authors can always self-publish, but they may find that unappealing.

      The system is flawed, and I don't think our laws reflect the true sentiment in the Constitution.

      I agree, but I think the real problem is that Congress is more attentive to the wealthy publishing lobbies (e.g. MPAA, RIAA), rather than to the public good, which is what copyright is supposed to promote. Still, this is a general problem of political misfeasance and malfeasance, and not at all limited to copyright.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    55. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      Don't forget service, I never have to call the pirates to reactivate something I obtained from them.

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    56. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      THAT, is a stupid analogy!

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    57. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying what games should cost. I'm saying what are they worth *to me*.

      It's only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. (Marketing 101)

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    58. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly do not want in-game ads. I don't want to pay a subscription fee. I don't want to be charged for online content add-ons.

      Should DRM be a hassle? No. But then again, neither should any aspect of a PC game. Yet, it's a given that due to the infinite number of different PC setups, some games do not work right out of the box, and require the user to find a solution. DRM is just another aspect of a PC game that may cause issues with a PC, and we shouldn't treat it any differently.

      I got Spore the day it came out. A dozen of my friends got it too--by downloading it later that week. Did we like the game? For the most part, not that much. But that doesn't make it right to download it. Don't say the DRM gives you right to download the game for free. Have I pirated games before? Yeah. But it wasn't right. Saying anything differently to try to justify my actions would be cowardly.

    59. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Strep · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not stealing. It's copyright infringement. Yes, it's illegal, and (usually) should be. Yes, it's (usually) wrong. But it's still not stealing, and yes, the distinction does matter.

      Right. Steal something $100 and it's petty theft. "infringe" on some copyrighted software of the same value and it's a federal case.

    60. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      If pirating is stealing then why do you pirate the game?

      Support the developers - steal the money and then buy the game if it is the same to you.

    61. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Fourpole · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Bullshit. If AAA titles were 20 bucks they would still get downloaded. Anyone who can afford the hardware to run these titles can spring $60 to buy the game. People download them because it is free and easy, and then try to rationalize it by saying that if it were less expensive or of higher quality or DRM free or if the big evil corporation that published it wasn't so greedy they would have paid for it. Hell, a new CD costs 10-15 bucks these days but people still download the shit out of those too.

    62. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      thats how things need to be hassle free

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    63. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      "People will pirate when it's overpriced. When it's right-priced, most people will gladly pay for it." What do mean right-priced? Does the saleswomen have to take you in the back and suck your dick for it to be right-priced? It is called stealing. plain and simple. I do it and i know it is stealing. i am poor so i can only afford a couple of $50 games a year. thats it. I admit it. Don't say they need a new business model, they need to keep up with todays tech, etc. You are stealing a game. it is no different if you go to gamespot and stick a game under your shirt and walk out. you just do it from your room/basement, whatever. No difference.

      First, I don't steal games. I have lots of games that I bought, but I've only bought one new game in the last 5 years because I simply no longer have time to play games. I have a stack of books (and none of THOSE are pirated or stolen either) that I would like to get through for their entertainment value. Some of THOSE were bought on sale for 80% off. At that price, they were "right-priced" for me. Others, I paid cover price.

      As the consumer, I get to say what price I am willing to pay, for any product. If it's not at the right price at the right time, I don't buy. I'm sure I'm not that unique.

      What next? If I watch a TV program but leave the room when the advertising comes on, am I stealing? If I switch stations when listening to the radio because the talking heads between songs bore me, am I stealing?

      I stand by my assertion. If something is right-priced, people will support it with their dollars. People *want* to do the right thing. They want to support things they believe in - just look at the record-breaking campaign donations in the last presidential race.

    64. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Nursie · · Score: 1

      You seem to think whether kids can afford the game matters.

      Yet here on /. we often get reports about the ever aging gaming demographic.

      I'm 30, I game, I can afford it. Now, does that mean I wouldn't like lower prices? Of course not, but I don't think that just because kids can't afford games that it means that they're necessarily overpriced, or pricing themselves out of a profit.

    65. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I suggest that you read the goddamned article. The author goes into detail explaining why you and your ilk are wrong. Read it. It's a worthwhile way to spend a couple hours if you're actually interested in learning some of the facts about PC piracy, rather than blindly accepting the rationalizations and outright lies spread by those who either a) don't know any better and/or b) just want to keep infringing the copyrights of games because's it's fun and free.

      From TFA: "The argument is straightforward and both intuitively and logically sound: for every pirated copy of a product, there is some potential loss of income to the producer of that product. This is not the same as saying that every pirated copy is a lost sale."

      I suggest you reread what I said and TFA and perhaps pickup a clue.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    66. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Yes but there is a difference inherent with that analogy.

      A car does have a minimum price tag attached to it, parts if nothing else. It has a physical presence, and we can say with no bullshit that if we don't get at least X amount for it we lose money.

      software HAS no physical presence theres no inherent value of the product, the price point is largely arbitrary. (I say largely because you still have to pay your coders) but if you sell a piece of software for even one dollar, you have MADE one dollar because after its creation there is no cost. A new car must be assembled, a new copy of (insert software title here) costs so little to produce that its not worth actually figuring the actual cost.

      This becomes blindingly obvious when you look at software like photoshop. The latest version for the home user is 700 dollars and the latest version for the professional user is 1000. Even with that oh so pretty box full of inserts production costs couldnt have been more than a few bucks.

      Photoshop could cost one tenth of what it currently does and adobe would still be looking at over 1000% percent profit per sale over production costs. And while it it useful software nobody thinks its worth 1000 dollars.

      This is the disparity inherent in attempts to compare the software market to normal retail.

    67. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or look at iTunes. Don't tell me that the stuff there isn't available via bittorent elsewher. People still end up buying from iTunes, despite the "free altrnatives".

      Because it is easier to push the "Buy Now" button than it is to rig your computer up with a bunch of dubious torrent software, find a torrent, download it in either 2 seconds or 2 days (depending on the torrent) only to end up with dubious quality.

      In other words, when people have the choice of free or at a reasonable price, easily obtained, they willingly pay the reasonable price. Sort of defeats the article's main proposition, that people will take the free route.

      The article is junk.

    68. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      It's simple - you don't like the price, don't buy it. Wait for the price to drop. Simply because you don't like the price doesn't mean you can copy the item for free and somehow think it's not stealing.

      It's simple - sharing information isn't ethically wrong. If you have some software, your friend asks for a copy, and you refuse, you're being an asshole. Sharing may be illegal, but those laws infringe on real property rights and can't be enforced anyway.

      Most importantly, the measures that would be needed to enforce restrictions on sharing would destroy any free society. Enforcing such laws would require either total surveillance or the complete abolition of the general purpose computer.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    69. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by ijakings · · Score: 3, Insightful

      An Apple isnt infinatelty replicable within a short space of time. Every piece of software (Or the software categories) becomes a market within itself.

      Stop using bad analogies. Spore isnt an apple, and the guy you are flaming is using sound business knowlege to make a valid point. You are using a bad analogy about apples and getting theft and copyright infringement mixed up.

      Your post couldnt be more wrong if it claimed that the earth was flat.

    70. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but the asshole is your friend who's using you to get things for free.

    71. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by anagama · · Score: 1
      When I was in high school, I was broke, yet I still found it possible to buy records (and then in college, CDs). Back then, copyright infringemet was a much more expensive and time consuming process compared to today:
      • You had to personally know someone with a physical copy.
      • You had to buy cassette tapes, and the good ones were a few bucks each -- given inflation, let's say $5/tape in today's dollars (although tapes may not cost that much now, when minimum wage was $3.35/hr, a $3 tape seemed pricey).
      • Then you had to copy from record to tape in real time and making a 90 minute mix tape was quite time consuming.

      Kids today may be similarly broke, but the effort required to get a copy of a song is negligible and virtually free. Anyway, kids are going to listen to music -- if they can't download illegitimate copies, they _will_ buy music. It's just that instead of 40,000 songs from 4000 albums, they'd have 50-100 bought albums by the time they headed off to college and a smattering of illegitimate "tapes". If I owned a record company or was part of a band with recording income, I'd be concerned because copying music has never been easier or cost so little.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    72. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by bentcd · · Score: 1

      There is already a competitive market for creative works - if you don't want to play Spore you're welcome to play another game instead, and get your entertainment that way. Your whole argument is ludicrous, it suggests that a specific apple in the fruit store would have an infinitely high price because the fruit store has a monopoly on that specific, shiny, juicy apple

      You need to look up fungibility in a handy dictionary. Hint: a specific apple is a fungible commodity. A specific game title is not.

      --
      sigs are hazardous to your health
    73. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by anagama · · Score: 1

      How does it defeat the article's point. Human nature is to be cheap. It's also to be lazy. When you can be either cheap or lazy, I suspect many people will choose "lazy" -- for evidence, look at all the "if I won the lottery" dreaming people do. Sellers need to make sure their prices are just right so that lazy looks more attractive than cheap.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    74. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Jessified · · Score: 1

      Just because some people pirate reasonably cheap games doesn't mean all people do. I think there are a fair number of people out there that know full well that they could pirate software if they wanted, but purchase it anyways to support the brand. I think what more companies need to realize is that they aren't just selling a product, they are selling a brand. If they do shitty things, it is really easy for potential customers to hit back and hard. Companies that earn a good reputation, I hope, can do well for themselves. There are a lot of other fine alternatives to google, but google has a great reputation (mostly) and people stick with it.

    75. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by anagama · · Score: 1

      Well, the French Revolution came about in part because of a social structure in which a very few were ridiculously wealthy, and the lion's share of the populace was practically destitute. Get a crowd of hungry malcontents milling around the apple store in your example, and prices may fall to affordable levels. Otherwise, the apples are likely to taken, the store burned, and the proprietor may lose important body parts.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    76. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Alright! So apparently Doctor-Patient Confidentiality and Privacy are right out the window... since sharing information isn't ethically wrong.

      Perhaps when you spend two years of your life producing said information and, instead of being reimbursed people tell you "It's not wrong. I'm not hurting anyone. I'm not stealing." you'll know what it is like to be on the other end.

      I spend a year writing a game. I sell it. 1,000,000 Play it. 1,000 Buy it @ $20.00. I've gotten $20,000 for a year worth of work, which 1 million people are enjoying indefinitely.

      It's pretty simple: If it isn't worth the price, don't buy it and don't use it. If you want to use it, buy it.

      If you honestly believe piracy doesn't hurt anyone, you can talk to a few friends of mine:

      1. Produce a game -> 2 years for 5 people.
      2. Launch game and sell it @ $20.00
      3. ~54,000 in sales (GROSS $1,800,000.00)
      4. Money which goes to the team : $5 per copy ($270,000.00) (They actually get less than $5 per copy, but it illustrates the point.)
      5. Split that 5 ways: $54,000 for two years of work.
      6. Find out your multiplayer match-making service has 400,000+ players regularly...

      Guess what 7 is:

      7. Go sign with EA because you will actually get paid working for them.
      oh and
      8. Close down the match-making service because you can't afford to run it at eight times capacity.

      That is what is happening to small development studios.

      You don't have to believe it.

      We have to live it.

    77. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by tomhudson · · Score: 1
      The article claims that people will steal, given the opportunity. People have the opportunity to download for free, but still choose to vote with their wallet in sufficient numbers to prove that the article is just troll-bait.

      There have always been thieves. The fact is that they have always been in the minority, despite the fact that it has always been easy to steal stuff.

    78. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by windsurfer619 · · Score: 1

      I am not a gamer and don't even bother to download these things since I don't have the time to play them, so take my gaming specific claims with a grain of salt.

      But you have time to post a lengthy comment on Slashdot. Riiiight.

    79. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      There's nothing wrong with getting things for free. The idea that someone has to get paid for everything all the time is absurd.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    80. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Phil06 · · Score: 0

      Copyright is an agreement between two people; one person offering a product for a particular price that includes promise not to copy, the person who buys the product agrees to the price and the promise, even though it is exceedingly easy to copy and there is next to no chance he will get caught if he does. If the person then goes off and copies then he has broken the agreement, this is wrong no matter how you slice it, call it illegal, immoral, whatever, it is wrong.

      --
      "...and yet, I blame society" Duke - Repo Man
    81. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Thrikreen · · Score: 1

      > You did not cost the game's author money. The game's author did not pay to produce the copy you downloaded.

      I don't know what world you're from, but the game's developer(s) did pay to create the game. By way of several years of their life, late nights, their health, endangering marriages, risky game design, obnoxious publishers, loud and vocal audience - quite a lot when you think about it.

      Point is though, it's done under the premise that the x hours of entertainment they provide for their game, you give money in exchange. It doesn't matter that if copying was impossible, you would not have otherwise gotten the game because you can't afford it. By pirating, you've denied them the monetary compensation, but still got to experience the game.

    82. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Listen, I've moderated comments on this story, so I have to post anonymous. I just wanted to clarify what seems to be a misunderstanding here.

      Registered Coward said that "saying we lose xx billion/year to piracy is wrong". Babbster said the article talks about why Registered Coward is wrong. The excerpt quoted, in more complete form is this:

      The argument is straightforward and both intuitively and logically sound: for every pirated copy of a product, there is some potential loss of income to the producer of that product. This is not the same as saying that every pirated copy is a lost sale. What it actually means is that firstly some proportion of the people who are pirating a game would have bought it in the absence of piracy. Equally as important however is the fact that even those who would never have paid the full purchase price for one reason or another may still have paid some lower amount to purchase and play the game which they pirated. This is because by the very act of obtaining and playing a game, they've clearly demonstrated that they place some value on that game. After all, if something is truly 'worthless', consumers won't bother to obtain or use it in the first place, regardless of whether it's free or not.

      The author goes on to say that these losses are notoriously hard to calculate resulting in people grossly over- or under-stating them. So, while Registered Coward is right that saying xx dollars lost is probably not acceptable, his subsequent statement seems to imply* that no loss is incurred. This is, however, not true.

      * I cannot emphasise the seems part of 'seems to imply' enough. It just looks like that was what he was saying.

    83. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by bonjour3 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      just play more starcraft http://www.3v3bgh.com/

    84. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      Alright! So apparently Doctor-Patient Confidentiality and Privacy are right out the window... since sharing information isn't ethically wrong.

      Hint: different things are different. I was clearly referring to copying copyrighted computer software. Trying to confuse the difference between personal private data and copyrighted works is an amusing distraction, but that's all it is.

      If you chose to produce some software and sell it, that's your call. If the economic realities of the situation end up resulting in less money than you expected, that's your problem. The world doesn't owe you a big payout. It's your responsibility to make good economic choices.

      It sucks that everyone can't be a video game developer, or a musician, or whatever they want to be full time. And it sucks that the market realities may mean that making big budget single player games (or big budget movies) may not be a feasible business model. But it sucked for buggy whip manufacturers when the car showed up; that doesn't mean that they could rationally expect the economic rules to be warped for their benefit.

      Hell, right now I'm in the process of developing a video game with a small team. But we've got a coherent business model. It should make us more than enough money, and if it doesn't it'll be our own damn fault. It's certainly not based on user respect for or the effective enforcement of a 150 year government granted monopoly on copying the distribution package.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    85. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Repossessed · · Score: 1

      even those who would never have paid the full purchase price for one reason or another may still have paid some lower amount to purchase and play the game which they pirated

      This seems horribly dishonest. Sure I might be willing to pay 10 dollars for something where I wouldn't pay 50 (and thus become a customer). But how often do price drops that significant happen?

      --
      Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
    86. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One apple is an almost-perfect substitute for another. One game is not an almost-perfect substitute for another. If my friends play one particular game, for example, then there is a sizeable network effect to me playing that game (being able to play it with them) - whereas, in the case of competing apples, I probably wouldn't even notice the difference.

    87. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by TomHandy · · Score: 1
      Come on, you know what I mean. Yes, you could buy a used car perhaps for $2000, but I'm talking about the cost of new cars. Either way, the point was about what most cars cost, and I was saying you shouldn't expect the market to price something to accommodate the people who don't really need or use that product much.

      I have no idea what your tangent onto the issue of things being released into the public domain has to do with a discussion of the cost of new games though. And going into the public domain is not a requirement for the price of something to change over time. Most games go down in price very rapidly, especially now. Most games that are a year old are reduced in half or more.... a couple years old and they're usually slashed to a third of their old price or less.

      I'm honestly not sure what point you're making about the extension of copyright and the price of videogames, because the cost of videogames drops much faster than would be relevant in terms of a copyright expiring or going into the public domain.

    88. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People like you doomed humanity...

    89. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      Anyone who can afford the hardware to run these titles can spring $60 to buy the game

      You mean adding a sub $100 graphic card to a computer that was bought for other purposes? And yes, with my sub $100 graphic card I can run an AAA game as Crysis or Fallout 3 at high quality (excluding AA/AS) and resolution at an acceptable frame rate.

      Hell, a new CD costs 10-15 bucks these days but people still download the shit out of those too.

      If you listen on music 8 hours a day you could listen to 240 CDs in a month (Assuming the CDs are actually decently well filled). I doubt you can find a lot of people with $2400-3600 disposable income per month.

      And that is why anti piracy outfits don't get it. It isn't about being able to afford a single specific game or music CD. Imagine a modern media consuming person that does a little of each. This specific person listens quite a lot to music, probably likes to sample new artists. He games some and watches the occasional movie and keeps his computer updated with the latest software. Not too much I think. Here would be his estimated spendings:

      * 2 Games (2x60=$120)
      * 20 Music CDs (20x15=$300)
      * 5 Movies (5x20=$100)
      * 20 Hours of TV shows (20x2=$40)
      * 1 Software product (1x60=$60)
      Total: $620/month

      Suddenly doesn't look as affordable unless you are a software programmer or other professional on a high salary. Sure, the anti pirate will begin talking about how if you can't afford it then you should just not get it. But any sane person will question that argument and ask "Why? It doesn't hurt anyone as it is copied data and nothing physical."

      This isn't to say that piracy doesn't reduce sales. It probably does to a smaller degree. Especially money that is funneled to the ISP and media storage industries to support the demand for piracy. There is always people who pirate because they are cheap and then of course you always have people who find it easier to just pirate everything instead of buying. (The main reason why someone would pirate a $5 game as mentioned somewhere else in this discussion)

    90. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      Thanks. I didn't know that there was a term for that concept. Very good to know for future intellectual property discussions. Makes it far easier to make a strong monopoly argument while immediatly lowering the value of a response like the GP.

    91. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Paltin · · Score: 1

      The "general value of something" for something like a car has a long is dicated by a wide variety of people with a wide variety of needs through things such as used markets. One of the purposes of copyright being limited to a reasonably small span was to allow artists to pay back to the community--- and to allow other access to their works to other artists, and various other reasons.

      I think that video games are more aggressively priced then some things--- but it can be impossible to find some games that are not even that old for sale at any price. File sharing systems have moved in to fill that need as well.

      My general point is that file sharing systems have become so prevalent because of failures of the institutions in place to regulate intellectual property, which is quite different then your claim that manufacturers should ignore people who aren't willing to "pay full price"--- these people are still part of the culture, and community, and should be considered.

    92. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      It's simple - you don't like the price, don't buy it.

      Exactly. Pirate it.

      . Simply because you don't like the price doesn't mean you can copy the item for free and somehow think it's not stealing.

      You are completly correct. Not liking the price has nothing to do with copying not being stealing. Copying not being the same as taking is what makes them different.

    93. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by ODiV · · Score: 1

      STALKER is fairly well liked and is $5 on Steam this weekend.

      You're welcome.

    94. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's more of a Statistics applicable math problem. Calculus is used to solve things that matter. Like making the games in the first place. I just wrote an entire article on this subject after reading the one posted here, and by article i mean editorial.

      Piracy truly does not account for loss of sales. If people pirate a game, they never intended to pay for it in most cases.

      http://qqadin.blogspot.com/2008/12/inspired-by-article-on-slashdot-about.html

    95. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by jabithew · · Score: 1

      It does say 'may'. Many things 'may' happen. Ultimately, that's one of the greater problems with calculating it. Something like Barbie Horse Adventures will be in a bargain bin within six months and will probably be at a price to capture all of its potential market at some point*.

      This will probably never happen for Windows on the other hand.

      *Once items head below about £3 ($5, â3) people tend to stop acting like rational consumers and act on impulse instead. You can see this in the pricing strategies for items at the tills of any store. HMV in the UK is especially good at this.

      --
      All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
    96. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by AnonChef · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When I was in high school, I was broke, yet I still found it possible to buy records (and then in college, CDs).

      Then you weren't broke where you.
      Broke is when you have to decide whether to eat or pay rent.
      (Yeah I know, you can be broker still and not have any money for either)

    97. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by AnonChef · · Score: 1

      And after a number of years (usually one or two) you can find old games in the bargain bin. So you can really end up with a $5 game instead of a $50 game. All you have to do is by an old car, no wait .... not right ... buy older games.

    98. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by rpillala · · Score: 1

      Last time I was in an Apple store it was mostly malcontents. They didn't seem hungry though.

      :)

      --
      When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
    99. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Znork · · Score: 1, Informative

      What kind of pseudo-intellectual babble is that?

      It's called 'economics'.

      There is already a competitive market for creative works

      Everything is fungible to a certain extent, but most creative works fall on the end of the scale where substitutes do not compete with each other to any significant extent. What would you put on a shopping list? In order of decreasing fungibility, Gas, Juice and A Game? Almost nobody would specify a brand of gas, some may specify a specific type of juice, but almost everyone would say what game. With creative works, once they near serious fungibility you'd tend to see lawsuits over copying.

      At that end of product substitution everything is basically only competing over the consumers disposable income; the options reduced to wether the customer will buy the product or do without. No other producers product is a replacement (if they buy the competitors product, will they then 'have' the product we're selling?). Once you reach that level you'll often see pushes for regional locking; a monopoly priced good over the whole world would leave people in countries with less disposable income largely untapped, but if you can lower the price specifically for them, and still keep the higher price in the richer regions by preventing competition from parallel imports you can get a bit more total revenue.

      a specific apple in the fruit store would have an infinitely high price

      A price would never reach infinitely high, as you have no buyer with infinite resources who values it to infinity. Lets take a (much) simplified example.

      Say we have a product that costs $2 as a marginal cost to produce per unit.

      For customers A1 to A10 it's worth $1 to $10.

      Set the price to $2, then you get 8 customers buying at $2, total revenue of $16, costs of $16, profit $0. Raise the price to $4 instead, now we get A4-A10 buying, 7*4-7*2=$14, ok, better profit. Raise to $6, A6-A10 buy, 5*6-5*2=$20, and we have our winner. Higher or lower price and you get lower profits. The value for A2-A5 is unfulfilled, despite being over marginal cost, being the dead weight loss, as, in a competitive market, competitors would enter and drive prices down towards the marginal cost per unit, thus maximizing total economic value created.

      So, you see, you would never get an infinite price, you'd get a price where the value to the purchasers cross your profit maximization point.

      Now, you can make a more complex calculation, add distributed costs, etc, but the fundamental economic aspects remain: the price gets set at the point where so many customers drop off that profit decreases. Piracy, if it affects anything at all, is, for the purpose of pricing, equivalent to competition, which means customers drop off quicker. Customers dropping off quicker means you need to lower the price to maximize revenue and profit.

    100. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by aj50 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People like you and me and anyone else who thinks the products are overpriced are not going to buy them. Either the companies making the products will be forced to lower the price to a more optimal one, or they will be able to keep it at the same price.

      The problem is that they are claiming loss of sales for piracy done by people who never would have bought the game in the first place since the price is not right.

      However if people pirate the game now, then they're never going to buy it later, even if the publisher reduces the price.

      Additionally, if you're used to getting games for free, suddenly any cost seems "overpriced" in relation to what you've previously been paying.

      --
      I wish to remain anomalous
    101. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Actually, I've DENIED (again, not COST) them monetary compensation by not buying, whether I "pirate" *COUGH*commitcopyrightinfringement*PIRATE* or not.

      I haven't denied gamespot anything, until I steal a copy from their shelf. Then, I've denied them the ability to sell that copy. I've also, then, cost them whatever they paid for that copy.

      Further, in the spirit of the rest of my post, which you obviously failed to read:

      If I'm denying the author monetary compensation for their work by not buying and I'm not buying because I'm weary of spending $60 on a game I might not like (on MY hardware, not a friend's, which, being different than mine, different keyboard, different mouse, faster CPU, but less RAM, let's just say), would provide a different experience (I may love the game but hate how it runs on my hardware, for example), what then?

      Play the demo? You do realize that a good number of game demos don't even run on the same (version of the) engine as the full game, right? Maybe different graphics, maybe less loaded into RAM or less complex AI, all things that would make the experience different. If there's a demo available at all.

      So, I deny the author monetary compensation for their work, entirely, or I risk denying myself the ability to reap any benefit from that $60 I spent on a game I don't like and can't return.

      But, wait! There's another, better option! An option which has existed, quite successfully, for years, known as "Shareware" or "Trialware", which involves providing a (sometimes stripped of the ability to save of load) full copy of the software, either for free or for the cost of producing that copy, in expectation that people who enjoy it will buy it.

      Wait... that's all but dead in gaming!

      There is, of course, a 4th option! Download the motherfucker. If you don't like it, delete it. The author would have been denied that compensation anyway, since you would not have bought it without trying it (on your own hardware), AND you get to keep your $60, to spend it on another game that you DO like.

      Oh, and if you do like the game? Go buy it, let the author have some of that hard-earned monetary compensation you think they deserve; you know, the money you would not have put in their pocket if you didn't know you liked their work. Keep the pirated copy installed, though; you'll need the CD in the drive and have to deal with crappy DRM if you install the purchased copy.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    102. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by aj50 · · Score: 1

      Overpricing is an intrinsic function of monopoly pricing. Revenue is maximized when raising the price would result in so many fewer copies sold that the extra per-copy income no longer outweighs the loss of copies sold.

      But (excluding a few extremely popular "must-haves") a game publisher doesn't have a monopoly, they must compete with all the other available games. I'm not deciding "can I afford game X" I'm deciding "will I buy game X or game Y?" Obviously the relative costs of games X and Y is an important factor in this decision.

      Secondly, the idea of pirates "comteting" with retail sales is ludicrous, there is no competition, I can have the game for free or I can pay for it. What? Additionally, pirates don't have irritating things like needing to turn a profit to remain viable or needing to recoup the cost of development. Legitimate publishers are never going to be able to compete with pirates.

      --
      I wish to remain anomalous
    103. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by dwandy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Find out your multiplayer match-making service has 400,000+ players regularly...
      8. Close down the match-making service because you can't afford to run it at eight times capacity.

      It sounds more to me like you're just not a very strong business-person. That's not meant as a slight: the "best" automakers in the USA are busy begging for money 'cause they've screwed up. Lots of smart business people lost money with lousy businesses in the dot-boom. There's plenty of examples where plenty of people can't run a business.
      Newsflash: Business is hard. Starting a business is really hard.

      Plenty of small business (you are/were a small business) would kill for 400k+ customers. That you were unable to monetize this stream isn't the fault of piracy. In fact, piracy gave you almost 10x the customer base.
      Lots of artists are waking up to the fact that the biggest threat to their economic viability as an artist isn't piracy: it's obscurity. Someone who has never heard of you is never going to give you any money. Someone who pirates your work might give you some money either directly (concerts, tee's etc) or indirectly, by marketing you to their friends (who then either give money directly or indirectly, rinse, repeat, profit!)

      5. Split that 5 ways: $54,000 for two years of work.

      Plenty of small business don't make any money at all in the first few years. They need investments to pay the bills. That you were able to make an income that can pay the bills means you had a successful business growing. Sure, you're not going to drive a Porsche on $27k/yr, but you can live on it - I have lived on less. And if you could figure out how to get those 400k people to give you a few bucks every year then you'd have that Porsche by now.

      Stop blaming other people for your problems.

      --
      If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
    104. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      . Simply because you don't like the price doesn't mean you can copy the item for free and somehow think it's not stealing.

      You are completly correct. Not liking the price has nothing to do with copying not being stealing. Copying not being the same as taking is what makes them different.

      You are taking the copyright owner's IP without there permission. You might like to rationalize the theft by saying it's not the same as taking a physical object; but in the end you're still a thief.

      It's no different then someone taking GPL'd code and redistributing it without complying with the GPL.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    105. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      It's simple - you don't like the price, don't buy it. Wait for the price to drop. Simply because you don't like the price doesn't mean you can copy the item for free and somehow think it's not stealing.

      It's simple - sharing information isn't ethically wrong. If you have some software, your friend asks for a copy, and you refuse, you're being an asshole. Sharing may be illegal, but those laws infringe on real property rights and can't be enforced anyway.

      You have no real property rights in the IP beyond those granted by the copyright owner; only the tangible medium becomes yours. I'd argue you have a doctrine of first sale to transfer it and the associated program; but even that is not a clear cut right in all cases.

      As for the ethics; sharing someone's work without their permission is wrong. It's not sharing, it's theft.

      Most importantly, the measures that would be needed to enforce restrictions on sharing would destroy any free society. Enforcing such laws would require either total surveillance or the complete abolition of the general purpose computer.

      I agree the enforceability is tough and would require unacceptable draconian methods to make it work; unfortunately statistics show relying on honesty doesn't work well either. As a result, companies keep trying to come up with ways to at least keep a small window open where they can sell the product before pirated copies become easy to get.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    106. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Dolda2000 · · Score: 1

      Not that you don't have a point at all, but your argument is quite akin to saying that all games are equivalent -- "If you think The Sims is overpriced, just buy Unreal Tournament instead". Which is, needless to say, also quite ludicrous.

    107. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Listen, I've moderated comments on this story, so I have to post anonymous. I just wanted to clarify what seems to be a misunderstanding here.

      Registered Coward said that "saying we lose xx billion/year to piracy is wrong". Babbster said the article talks about why Registered Coward is wrong. The excerpt quoted, in more complete form is this:

      The argument is straightforward and both intuitively and logically sound: for every pirated copy of a product, there is some potential loss of income to the producer of that product. This is not the same as saying that every pirated copy is a lost sale. What it actually means is that firstly some proportion of the people who are pirating a game would have bought it in the absence of piracy. Equally as important however is the fact that even those who would never have paid the full purchase price for one reason or another may still have paid some lower amount to purchase and play the game which they pirated. This is because by the very act of obtaining and playing a game, they've clearly demonstrated that they place some value on that game. After all, if something is truly 'worthless', consumers won't bother to obtain or use it in the first place, regardless of whether it's free or not.

      The author goes on to say that these losses are notoriously hard to calculate resulting in people grossly over- or under-stating them. So, while Registered Coward is right that saying xx dollars lost is probably not acceptable, his subsequent statement seems to imply* that no loss is incurred. This is, however, not true.

      * I cannot emphasise the seems part of 'seems to imply' enough. It just looks like that was what he was saying.

      I can see how my comment could be misinterpreted. Sometimes I forget that everyone on /. doesn't understand supply and demand curves. I was saying the same thing as the article; that the actual loss is hard to quantify. I didn't mean to imply no loss occurs.

      I would hazard a guess that the actual lost revenue is higher for lower priced software (such as games) than expensive ones such as Photoshop / Office / etc. MS seems to realize that by offering a "Home" version of Office at a much lower price point than a similar "work" version (and allows 3 installs.

      Of course, vendors *like* to assume each pirated copy equals a lost sale; simply because it makes the problem look worse than it actually is and thus can be used to defend actions taken to stop piracy. Politics never need real analysis to make decisions, after all.

      And a tip of the hat to you, AC, for bringing this up in a reasonable way.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    108. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Alright! So apparently Doctor-Patient Confidentiality and Privacy are right out the window... since sharing information isn't ethically wrong.

      Hint: different things are different. I was clearly referring to copying copyrighted computer software. Trying to confuse the difference between personal private data and copyrighted works is an amusing distraction, but that's all it is.

      It's still information. Why should you have aright to protect your data and someone else shouldn't have the same right to protect data they've created?

      Oh, wait, that's it - in the former you are being hurt, but in the later it's someone else who clearly isn't as important as you. Clue - it's called hypocrisy.

      If you chose to produce some software and sell it, that's your call. If the economic realities of the situation end up resulting in less money than you expected, that's your problem. The world doesn't owe you a big payout. It's your responsibility to make good economic choices.

      No, it doesn't owe you a payout. But if people are playing the game they clearly value it, but because they are cheap they chose to steal it instead of pay for it. Yes, I call it stealing, so save me the rationalizations why copyright violations aren't theft in such instances.

      In an effort to make *good economic decisions* companies resort to DRM and other ways to retain control; which opens up a host of other problems and is not all that successful in the end.

      Hell, right now I'm in the process of developing a video game with a small team. But we've got a coherent business model. It should make us more than enough money, and if it doesn't it'll be our own damn fault.

      That's great, just don't complain when someone takes what you've created and finds a way to use it without you getting what you want out of it.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    109. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember reading a story about Micro$oft's Xbox Live that discussed the free software and game add-ons that come with new games and the reason the "add-ons" are not present on the disc is not so much because they would not fit but to make people feel more "confortable" with downloading digital content instead of having the physical media in the hopes that people would begin to buy games in digital download form instead of having the physical media in hand. The M$ spokesperson stated that M$ feels this would be a way of cutting production costs and fighting piracy (I don't remember M$ having it's own naval force.) but when the interviewer asked about this "destroying" the used game market the M$ spokesperson said they feel that consoles could not make the full transition the download only.

    110. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by rxan · · Score: 1

      It's not stealing. It's copyright infringement.

      Boy people really piss me off when they argue over semantics...

    111. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      You have no real property rights in the IP beyond those granted by the copyright owner; only the tangible medium becomes yours. I'd argue you have a doctrine of first sale to transfer it and the associated program; but even that is not a clear cut right in all cases.

      In the United States at least, "we are endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." It's common to include "property" among the list of rights - where the term refers to physical property like CDs, books, photocopiers, computers, etc. In the US tradition, copyright is certainly not a natural right. The French do claim it as natural right, but they are dumb and wrong.

      If you own a book and a photocopier, your friend owns a ream of paper, and you both chose to make a copy of that book, that is your inalienable natural right. It's your property; no one else has any claim on it. They don't even have any reason to know what you do with it, much less control your actions.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    112. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      It's still information. Why should you have aright to protect your data and someone else shouldn't have the same right to protect data they've created? Oh, wait, that's it - in the former you are being hurt, but in the later it's someone else who clearly isn't as important as you. Clue - it's called hypocrisy.

      Someone leaking your personal secrets could actually be "harm". The fact that you want a few more dollars in royalties doesn't mean you've been harmed, it means you're whining.

      No, it doesn't owe you a payout. But if people are playing the game they clearly value it, but because they are cheap they chose to steal it instead of pay for it. Yes, I call it stealing, so save me the rationalizations why copyright violations aren't theft in such instances.

      Yes. People are cheap. That's how a market economy works. There's certainly nothing wrong with it.

      In an effort to make *good economic decisions* companies resort to DRM and other ways to retain control; which opens up a host of other problems and is not all that successful in the end.

      In video games, DRM is mostly just an excuse to deny the end user their right to resell what they've bought. It has very little to do with piracy except in press releases. Successful game companies have accepted the fact that there will be pirate players of single player computer games. They've certainly gotten over the idea that every pirate copy could have been a sale.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    113. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by decoy256 · · Score: 1

      Ummmm.... No. Copyright is a government granted right given to you that prevents me from copying your stuff. You're mixing the EULA in with Constitutional Law. Never a good idea.

    114. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by decoy256 · · Score: 1

      It has always been transferable, all the way back to the first real copyright law, the British Statute of Anne, in 1710, and in the first US copyright law, the 1790 Copyright Act. Remember, copyrights are not directly valuable to authors. They're basically publishing monopolies. The author makes money by selling the right, or licensing the right, to a publisher.

      You are correct. A copyright is ownership of property, and just like all property, you cannot say to have all Rights to it unless you also have the Right of Transfer. Transferability is an essential element of true ownership.

      I do not have a problem with transferring the right, I have a problem with indefinitely extending the right.

    115. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by ciderVisor · · Score: 1

      I see what you did there. Instead of using the initials MS to represent an abbreviation of MicroSoft, you turned the S into a dollar-sign, to make it look like they're only interested in money. That was funny.

      --
      Squirrel!
    116. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you think he doesn't have time to play games? Slashdot posting is obviously the reason...

    117. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not semantics. It's the truth. And you know it.

    118. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "if you sell a piece of software for even one dollar, you have MADE one dollar because after its creation there is no cost"

      But who paid the programmers to make the software in the first place?

      You stupid stupid STUPID cunt.

    119. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Babbster · · Score: 1

      In looking back over your post and the GP, it's clear that either a) I clicked on the wrong "reply to this" and/or b) I was in a bleary-eyed haze and barely read your post (the latter is possible, though less likely). In any case, I didn't have to write from the "dick's point of view" and I apologize.

    120. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Laserwulf · · Score: 1

      "if you sell a piece of software for even one dollar, you have MADE one dollar because after its creation there is no cost"

      But who paid the programmers to make the software in the first place?

      You stupid stupid STUPID cunt.

      Once you recoup your development costs, then it's almost ALL profit. You still have to pay for producing discs and packaging, but a $1000 DVD of Photoshop will cost roughly the same to physically manufacture as a $50 game. Why do you think software goes down in price over time, notably in digital distribution? Services like Steam don't have to worry about shelf-space, so once the developers break even, they can afford to lower the price to entice more customers. A lower profit per unit is certainly better than none at all.

      Please pay attention when you're deriding someone: "...after it's creation there is no cost". The parent noted your point, and your final comment certainly speaks volumes about your powers of observation.
      Bravo, good sir, bravo.

      --
      "Make cyberlove, not cyberwar!" -Khaed(544779)
    121. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      You are taking the copyright owner's IP without there permission.

      Actually, no. I am copying their IP without their permission. If I planned to take it I would come into their offices and take the original at gunpoint.

      but in the end you're still a thief.

      And you are a rapist for raping the language like that.

      It's no different then someone taking GPL'd code and redistributing it without complying with the GPL.

      True. And that is not theft either. And as I try my best to not be a hypocrite I have no problem with people doing such a thing non commercially.

      Commercial piracy i do look down upon (and you'll find that many pirates do).

    122. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      we should pay to *please* the authors

      ... and not some middlemen (AKA "publishers")

    123. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      In looking back over your post and the GP, it's clear that either a) I clicked on the wrong "reply to this" and/or b) I was in a bleary-eyed haze and barely read your post (the latter is possible, though less likely). In any case, I didn't have to write from the "dick's point of view" and I apologize.

      No problem, we're cool. I was also a bit of a dick in my response, and I apologize for that.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    124. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That wasn't. :(

    125. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by RyatNrrd · · Score: 1

      Meh. It's helping yourself to something without paying for it. "Stealing", while not technically accurate, is a pretty good shorthand.

    126. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Enlightening.

      The other day I saw Microsoft Office Outlook 2007 advertised for 140$. Can you say, I DON'T THINK SO?

    127. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Malkin · · Score: 1

      People will pirate when it's overpriced. When it's right-priced, most people will gladly pay for it.

      Uh... you didn't actually read the article, did you?

    128. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Problem starts when 4 out of 5 support calls are clearly from pirated versions of the software.

    129. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Problem starts when 4 out of 5 support calls are clearly from pirated versions of the software.

      Certainly. Companies can't afford to support pirated copies; and unless they have a good way to distinguish between legit and pirated copies they'll probably cut back on tech support.

      Ultimately, they may look to different distribution models than the traditional retail boxed disk. Online d/l; with concurrent registration, provides a way to try to authenticate users. Not that it will stop piracy; but it can be used to cut down on support calls as well as a way to add value the user experience by offering special deals to registered users.

      Pay per call is another way - you could coupon the box and allow a few free call;s with the code; after that all cost money. Not a good solution; but another way to control costs associated with support.

      Console games provide another way to avoid at least the casual piracy since disk base protection (software and hardware) can be built in and not easily replicated by most users.

      In the end it's still a cat and mouse game.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    130. Re:saying. "Fast forward to the 21st century" by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Problem with consoles from a company point of view is, once a console is open it is way more open than any pc ever could be!

      My personal opinion is that for a platform to survive and become popular you need a good mix of both, you need a decent amount of piracy to spread the word but you also need some kind of protection so that enough people buy the games. Ones this equilibrium is broken things become problematic.

      Funny thing is there are many factors why the PS3 does not really take off and one of them simply is, expensive games and absolutely no piracy. The other thing is Mac gaming is dead due to rampant piracy of games on the Mac and the PC is sort of a last afterthought after the consoles have been served. Which is a pity because the PC currently beside the mac are the really only open platforms where single persons and small groups can develop for without the costs involved the consoles have!
      (Which probably is the main reason the indie scene is still as strong as it is on the PC)

      Also the PSP is basically dead due to the easiness to open it, and once it is open it really is an awesome machine but also wide open for piracy!

  3. File Sharing is not piracy! by pm_rat_poison · · Score: 5, Funny

    What does gaming have to do with piracy?

    1. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're a couple decades late if you're trying to stop this new definition of piracy. It's too late, just accept it into your vocabulary.

    2. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by MtlDty · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It has always been called piracy. File sharing is a new term that has come into use with p2p software. File sharing is arguably distinctly different, and you probably dont want to muddy the waters between legal filesharing, and illegal piracy.

    3. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by T0wner · · Score: 1

      He does kind of go into this on page 2 of the article... Just for you the tldr is that the pirates like being called pirates as do the West Indian trading companies... wait a sec.

    4. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by mr_matticus · · Score: 5, Informative

      O RLY?
      "The unauthorized reproduction of another's work." -- Oxford English Dictionary (2006).

      "The unauthorized and illegal reproduction or distribution of materials protected by copyright, patent, or trademark law." --Black's Law Dictionary, 8th Ed. (2004).

      Lest you think this is some modern invention:

      "[T]he test of piracy [is] not whether the identical language, the same words, are used, but whether the substance of the production is unlawfully appropriated." --Drone's Treatise on the Law of Property in Intellectual Productions (1879).

      "It's being Printed again and again, by Pyrates" --Daniel Defoe, (1703).

      "Pirated works may be seized on importation into those countries of the Union where the original work enjoys legal protection." --Berne Convention Art. 12 (1886).

      It has been referred to as piracy in court cases dating all the way back to the 1830s, and notably for scholars of copyright, used in the landmark Folsom decision as well.

    5. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      That was only a few centuries ago, NOT A LONG TIME (I'm european) And it was deliberate over-the-top propaganda back then too.

    6. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by theaveng · · Score: 1

      Thank you. I am tired of those who try to deny what they do.

      I have been pirating games since 1987, and I'm proud of it because I feel it's justified. Why? Because any other product you buy, you can return if it turns-out to be crap, even cars (lemon law). But not media. It is wrong for companies to refuse refunds - it's poor customer service. If a company is proud of their products, then they should be willing to stand by that product, including refunds.

      But the entertainment industry does not, therefore I pirate to avoid getting stuck with bad product. I try before I buy.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    7. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by theaveng · · Score: 1

      P.S. If the time ever comes that I cannot use Bittorrent or Hulu or some other source to try the new Jurassic Crap Part 20 DVD, then I will be forced to buy the DVD.

      I suspect I will be making lots of mail order returns & filing lots of chargebacks. I will not be ripped off by trashy product.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    8. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by JPLemme · · Score: 1

      First, I didn't realize the use of word "piracy" to describe copyright infringement was that old. +1 Informative.

      But I also think that continuing to use the word "piracy" in place of "copyright infringement" only conflates a category of things that are clearly wrong (e.g. making 10,000 copies of a DVD and selling them in local flea markets) with a category of things that are benign (e.g. making a mix tape to give to a friend or posting a video of my toddler dancing to a Prince song). The less pejorative the terms we use, the harder it is for Warner Bros. et al to claim the moral high ground.

      For an example of why this is important, see "Digital Rights Management". It almost sounds like a Good Thing when you phrase it that way.

    9. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      Only a few centuries ago? European civilization from a century ago doesn't look remotely like what it does today. I'm pretty sure that the European languages have changed a lot in the same time too, maybe not as much. The fact that there is such old precedence and that it's not a use that is only a decade ago tells us it's not something new.

      I think it's funny that on a web where LOL-speak is commonplace that they complain that "someone else" is trying to change the meaning of words and how they are allowed to use them. Languages are malleable and no one subculture or interest group is going to be able to lay any legitimate claim to being the sole gatekeeper for how the meanings of words change.

    10. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by Prefader · · Score: 5, Funny

      That was only a few centuries ago, NOT A LONG TIME (I'm european)

      I'd love to know what exactly that's supposed to mean. Does time work differently in Europe than it does in the rest of the world?
      These definitions were in use generations ago. Propaganda or not, it's part of the language now.

    11. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by jensend · · Score: 1

      Modern English has only been around for a few centuries, so that is a long time for an English word. If you excise all words which are less than 300 years old and all words whose etymology had some kind of political influence, you can say goodbye to most of the language. Arguing against the use of the word "piracy" to denote copyright infringement only makes you look foolish. Taking away the name for the deed and giving it another one isn't going to make the deed any more ethical, and it's kind of pompous of people to declare that centuries of language use should be overturned to fit their literalistic whims.

    12. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about illegal filesharing and legal piracy?

    13. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by theaveng · · Score: 1

      >>>If you excise all words which are less than 300 years old and all words whose etymology had some kind of political influence, you can say goodbye to most of the language
      >>>

      A slight exaggeration. You can pick-up a document from 1400 (like Chaucer's Canterbury Tales) and almost the entire language is present, albeit spelled differently than how we spell. The word "pirate" originates around 1200. The verb comes from 1570s with the meaning "one who takes another's work without permission" recorded in 1701.

      - it comes from Old Northern French word "pirate'"
      - which came from Rome's vulgate latin "pirata"

      So that's a word that goes back over 1500 years. The synonym "plagiarist" comes from the 1590s. It means "kidnapper" in the original Latin. So stop kidnapping those movies, games, and music! ;-)

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    14. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

      Mix tapes are not piracy and in fact are expressly authorized under United States law.

      Moreover, there is no conflation, because your conclusion that copyright infringement is "benign" is not falsifiable and thus begs the question. Copyright infringement is not benign. It is unlawful, and it is so for myriad good reasons. That said, personal use should not be considered infringement (though at the moment, some forms of it are), and the RIAA comprises little more than a bunch of asshats who give a bad name to all the honest and hardworking copyright owners in the world.

    15. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by VJ42 · · Score: 1

      I'd love to know what exactly that's supposed to mean. Does time work differently in Europe than it does in the rest of the world?

      Time works different in Europe in the same way that distance works different in the USA. To quote the old axiom, Americans think that 100 years is a long time, Brits think 100 miles is a long way. Remember we've got over 2000 years of history in the UK alone. OK, a big chunk between the Romans and the Norman invasion in 1066 is missing but that still means we have a over thousand years of documented history. That's just the UK, add the histories of all the other Europian nations and Between us there's a lot of History.

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    16. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Ironically, the reason you can't return software is because people like you bring it home, copy it and then return it.

    17. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by theaveng · · Score: 1

      If I think it's crap and I'm returning it because of that reason, why on earth would I want a copy?

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    18. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by cong06 · · Score: 1

      Don't go accusing people now...that'd be rude.

    19. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was only a few centuries ago, NOT A LONG TIME (I'm european)

      I'd love to know what exactly that's supposed to mean. Does time work differently in Europe than it does in the rest of the world?

      These definitions were in use generations ago. Propaganda or not, it's part of the language now.

      A dictionary throwing the word "piracy" in legalese 150 years ago isn't really a strong argument for it being "the same" for a "long time".

      Presumably the implication is that the USA has not been around a "long time". Consider that the US of A is about 200 years old, almost 250. Consider also that, say England, has been a continuously (more or less) self-governing county for well over 1,000 years.

      Interestingly, the US was the biggest "pirate" of British "intellectual property" since it was founded. Dicken's stories were rampantly republished in the states without payment to Dickens (or his agents).

      On a personal note, I think the rise of Somali piracy is a great boon to legally acceptable and otherwise file-sharers.

      The preceding lesson was made possible by a grant from the "I'm posting in my underwear" foundation, the letter Z and the number 4 and not the OP.

    20. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by raynet · · Score: 1

      For legal piracy you just need a letter of marquee.

      --
      - Raynet --> .
    21. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by pm_rat_poison · · Score: 1

      What about all that imaginary profits the RIAA is losing, you insensitive clod!

    22. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never heard the saying: "In America 100 years is a long time; in Europe 100 miles is a long distance"?

    23. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by Obyron · · Score: 1

      They use metric time.

      --
      --Obyron
    24. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by mabinogi · · Score: 1

      More than a couple of decades, a few centuries

      --
      Advanced users are users too!
    25. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by Atario · · Score: 1

      These definitions were in use generations ago. Propaganda or not, it's part of the language now.

      So what you're saying is that it's legitimate to change the language. Yet it hasn't occurred to you that it's exactly as legitimate for us to try to do the same?

      --
      "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
    26. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I'm not accusing him of anything...he said it himself--"I've been pirating games since 1987"

    27. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      That's not how it works. You pay $50, bring it home, copy it, and take it back to the store for a $50 refund. You then buy the next game and repeat ad naseum. I worked in retail security in the 80s. This is exactly how it happened.

    28. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by jabithew · · Score: 1

      This reminds me of an old joke.

      An American couple walks into the Bodleian. They have a quiet but heated conversation until the woman gets fed up and walks to the help desk.

      "Excuse me, my husband and I couldn't decide...is this building pre-war?"
      "Madam, it is pre-America."

      --
      All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
    29. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by VJ42 · · Score: 1

      Heh, that's as good as my favourite way to "insult" Americans: "I've got drunk in pubs older than your country" (This isn't actually that hard). Fortunately, most take it in the good humour intended, but I've accidentally really annoyed one or two people with that line (obviously this just makes it funnier).

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    30. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by Prefader · · Score: 1

      I don't quite know where you got that idea.

      People are complaining, "That's not what the word means!" The GGP's post shows that it does mean that. Maybe tomorrow it'll mean something completely different . . . how is my post suggesting that it shouldn't?

    31. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's talkin percentages, obviously.
      The quote from Daniel Defoe is older than the United States of America; i.e. it is to be considered rather old for you americans -- after all, your nation with "all its history" didn't even exist when he said it! That's literally pre-historic times for the U.S.

      While the AC should've specified which country he's from, I can take my own country as an example.

      My friends and I tend to go for a few beers or a coffee in pubs & coffee shops with part of their original brickwork and foundation still intact.
      That foundation was laid in the 16th century.

      The city I live in was first mentioned mid thirteenth century.
      We've had the same name for the people from this country since *the first century* (though obviously with spelling changed over time), with a very old writing style invented in the second century, and we became an independent nation in the early 16th century (though the country existed by the same name many centuries before that).

      The gist of it all is that by European standards, even Mr. Defoe's quote wasn't made all that long ago ;)
      Then again, that's not to say that the AC to whom you replied isn't a cunt.

    32. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by toddestan · · Score: 1

      I think the point he's trying to make is that "piracy" has meant unauthorized copying of copyrighted works long before MP3's, computers, radio, record players, and even the **AA's. Even if you don't consider 130 years a long time, you can hardly say the use of the word is anything new.

    33. Re:File Sharing is not piracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Propaganda or not, it's part of the language now.

      So if something has been wrong a long time it becomes right?

      I guess I should get on the nuc-u-ler bandwagon right now! :)

  4. Why do I pirate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I pirate because I have an addiction to worthless things. I pirate to try and fill the hole which has always been sitting there. Drinking doesn't do it, alcohol doesn't do it. The distraction of free music and video games doesn't do it. But I keep on downloading, drinking, and watching. Not because I realize that these things aren't fulfilling, but because I just can't think of anything more convenient to act as a stopgap to the flood of boredom and loneliness.

    So I agree, for myself at least. There is no grandiose reason for piracy. It's there, it's easy, and I honestly gave up trying to care a long time ago.

    1. Re:Why do I pirate? by Strep · · Score: 1

      Hmmm. Perhaps after you're caught, your cell-mate will help fill that hole of yours.

  5. They still don't get it by ccguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    when faced with the option of getting something for free or paying for it, and in the absence of any significant risks, you don't need complex economic studies to show you that most people will opt for the free route."

    Well, there's always a third route: Not getting that something, meaning that having these three options:

    - 1. Play for free
    - 2. Play at a cost
    - 3. Don't play at all

    Many people will sort it 1,3,2.

    Also, some people will happily do 2,1,3 as long the price is reasonable and so it what they get.

    So... stop trying to get money from people who just don't value your product if it isn't free, because it can't be done. You can piss them off though, and that can hurt your business.

    1. Re:They still don't get it by rrcipolla · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So... stop trying to get money from people who just don't value your product if it isn't free, because it can't be done. You can piss them off though, and that can hurt your business.

      If they're only going to use your product for free, how is it hurting business to piss them off? As you stated, they're not going to buy it anyway.

    2. Re:They still don't get it by ccguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If they're only going to use your product for free, how is it hurting business to piss them off? As you stated, they're not going to buy it anyway.

      Because using your product for free is not the worst scenario. Just because they don't play it doesn't mean they don't know people who do, or spend time in forums bashing you.

      Take slashdot (not literally please): Many people here won't waste a chance to criticize Spore's DRM, even if they don't really care about Spore and wouldn't buy it even if it didn't have any DRM at all. Still, we are _pissed_ at EA for the DRM, and let everyone know.

    3. Re:They still don't get it by Aladrin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, Most people sort it like this:

      2 - if reasonably priced
      1
      2 - if unreasonably priced but not available free and still within budget
      3

      If 'most people' sorted things your way, almost nobody would ever buy a game.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    4. Re:They still don't get it by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So... stop trying to get money from people who just don't value your product if it isn't free, because it can't be done. You can piss them off though, and that can hurt your business.

      Heh yeah. Gotta love their logic: "We'll fight piracy by strengthening the 'copy protection' and increasing the value of pirated copies!"

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    5. Re:They still don't get it by ccguy · · Score: 1

      If 'most people' sorted things your way, almost nobody would ever buy a game.

      Actually most people start with 3, for games and for everything else that is not essential. That's a fact, people usually have one or two hobbies they can/want assign a non trivial budget two.

      So in your business model, consider the fact that no matter how good your product is, some people will only want it free. And if they can't get it, it's fine by them, they'll just forget it exist.

    6. Re:They still don't get it by theaveng · · Score: 1

      I don't know if I'm "normal" or not, but I like to think most people do what I do:

      1 - try it free

      2 - buy it if it's good (24, Heroes)

      3 - don't buy it if it's trash (Terminator Chronicles) and erase it from the hard drive

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    7. Re:They still don't get it by floodo1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Most people care about EA's DRM as a rights issue. Makes sense that you don't have to be affected to be concerned about how the loss of rights for someone else could potentially lead to the loss of your own rights.

      --
      I KUT J00 M4NG!!!
    8. Re:They still don't get it by g_adams27 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > So... stop trying to get money from people who just don't value your product
      > if it isn't free, because it can't be done.

      Your premise is flawed. Pirates obviously do value the product even if it's not free, which they show by taking the time and effort to get it.

      You seem to be quite confident that huge companies with highly-skilled marketing, accounting, and product research divisions "just don't get it", as if the ideas you present have never crossed their minds. But in fact the article spends a whole section or two discussing the issues that you refer to. For example:

      The argument [of economic loss] is straightforward and both intuitively and logically sound: for every pirated copy of a product, there is some potential loss of income to the producer of that product. This is not the same as saying that every pirated copy is a lost sale. What it actually means is that firstly some proportion of the people who are pirating a game would have bought it in the absence of piracy. Equally as important however is the fact that even those who would never have paid the full purchase price for one reason or another may still have paid some lower amount to purchase and play the game which they pirated. This is because by the very act of obtaining and playing a game, they've clearly demonstrated that they place some value on that game. After all, if something is truly 'worthless', consumers won't bother to obtain or use it in the first place, regardless of whether it's free or not. Even if a game only gives the pirate a few hours of enjoyment, that's still worth something. In the absence of piracy they may have purchased the game at a discount several months after its release, or bought it second-hand for example. So the existence of piracy results in some loss of income to PC game developers, publishers, retailers and even other consumers.

    9. Re:They still don't get it by Nathrael · · Score: 1

      And I can attest that. I illegally downloaded Half Life 2 as well as Half Life 2 Episode 1 because I liked HL2 and buying it was not an option for me at the moment, I had no access to a credit card back then and buying the censored German version [which is the only one they sell in Austrian stores] was no option for me. Later, a family member got a credit card, and guess what - because I think that Valve deserved my money for their great games I bought the Orange box (that was back when it was still possible to buy games to the reasonable US prices instead of the horrible 1USD = 1EUR local prices). If I wouldn't have played a DL'd copy of HL2 first, I'd probably would never have bothered buying E2 and later the Orange Box to complete my collection. Sometimes, filesharing actually improves selling rates, it seems.

      --
      A good education is a bit like a STD - it makes you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and gives you a desire to spread it.
    10. Re:They still don't get it by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Actually with the quality levels seen, I will often sort 3,1,2 with very little difference between 1 and 2. With games that have good reviews from people I trust, it will be 2,1,3 unless there is DRM or rootkist, when it will revert to 3,1,2.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    11. Re:They still don't get it by binarylarry · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but you can piss off your customers because they may run into the same countermeasures the pirates run into.

      See every anti-piracy system ever invented.

      --
      Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
    12. Re:They still don't get it by theaveng · · Score: 1

      I'll never make the claim that pirating improves sales. Instead I'll make the claim that it "helps poor citizens save money" because they don't waste their dollars/euros on junk. The try-before-buy approach helps them avoid wasting precious cash on crap purchases.

      This of course annoys the mega-mega-rich corporations, because they WANT you to buy crap. It makes them even more rich.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    13. Re:They still don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your premise is flawed. Pirates obviously do value the product even if it's not free, which they show by taking the time and effort to get it.

      You seem to be quite confident that huge companies with highly-skilled marketing, accounting, and product research divisions "just don't get it", as if the ideas you present have never crossed their minds.

      You seem to be a bit overconfident in the skills of your average marketing drone. Fact is that the companies really don't get it.

      1. The vast majority of potential customers could never afford all the software they have on their computer. Add up the cost of what an average 16 year old male American has on his PC, and you will see that very clearly.

      2. Even the ones that could afford the software on their computer would never ever buy the vast majority of the programs they have.

      3. The majority of pirated games is played about as much as they are played when they are bought---around 10 minutes of the first level.

      4. Most game companies have been unable to provide good incentives to actually buy their games---starting from repetitive, boring gameplay over DRM issues and ending with just providing a small leaflet instead of interesting additional content in the form of books, maps, etc. Notwithstanding a few exceptions, the creativity score of new title during the past ten years was 0 (in words: zero).

      5. People that have the money, because they earn enough, usually buy the software, except it's hopelessely overpriced (such as CAD/professional audio/graphics software, or games that cost almost a 100 USD).

    14. Re:They still don't get it by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      You seem to be quite confident that huge companies with highly-skilled marketing, accounting, and product research divisions "just don't get it", as if the ideas you present have never crossed their minds. But in fact the article spends a whole section or two discussing the issues that you refer to. For example:

      You and the author seem to make the mistake of assuming that by their very nature, huge companies with highly-skilled marketing, accounting, and product research divisions "just get it". The number of huge companies that have ridden themselves into the ground clearly show that one does not necessarily follow the other. Then throw in that we are talking about monopolies here, and the assumption becomes even worse.

    15. Re:They still don't get it by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      If they're only going to use your product for free, how is it hurting business to piss them off? As you stated, they're not going to buy it anyway.

      [citation] Bill Gates business model for pirated Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office to reinforce monopoly and combat linux in China

    16. Re:They still don't get it by kaizokuace · · Score: 1

      Just because individual people could be smart doesnt mean that they can add to an organization. Corporate organizations are full of all kinds of people (a lot of idiots, but smart people too) but the structure seems to not take advantage of individuals specialties. It all just comes out at the least common denominator level. So highly skilled marketing, accounting and research divisions aren't 100% highly skilled. Also they aren't run by one philosopher-king who has the knowledge and responsibility to take the product or whatever to excellence.

      --
      Balderdash!
    17. Re:They still don't get it by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Pirates obviously do value the product even if it's not free, which they show by taking the time and effort to get it.

      Actually, based on all the definitions offered up in this thread, the pirates are the ones illegally copying and redistributing the games, not those who download it and play it. So "getting" a pirated copy does not a pirate make.

    18. Re:They still don't get it by stewbacca · · Score: 3, Insightful

      2. Even the ones that could afford the software on their computer would never ever buy the vast majority of the programs they have.

      Dude, how old are you? Do you have a job? If so, did you happen to notice that every computer in your office has legal copies of very expensive software (times something like 500 at a small-medium sized company)? I suppose it you make $12 an hour you might consider $1200 to be a lot of money (Adobe Suite, for example), but I sure as hell don't, considering how absolutely necessary that software is to my livelihood.

    19. Re:They still don't get it by RedWizzard · · Score: 1

      So... stop trying to get money from people who just don't value your product if it isn't free, because it can't be done.

      Your premise is flawed. Pirates obviously do value the product even if it's not free, which they show by taking the time and effort to get it.

      I don't think it's quite that black and white. The time and effort to pirate is extremely low - usually a matter of a couple of minutes to start a download. It's lower than the time and effort of just getting to a brick and mortar store. So you can't ascribe very much value that way. It's so low that people sometimes don't even use the stuff they download. Also consider that time and effort taken to pirate does not represent the downloader's estimation of the value of the product, it represents the downloader's estimate of the potential value of the product.

    20. Re:They still don't get it by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      You're making the mistake of confusing work budgets with personal budgets.

      For example, i don't consider 10'000 US$ for a decent messaging server expensive. However, i would consider 10'000 US$ very much money if i had to pay for it out of my own pocket.

      Add to the fact that EVERY company i've EVER been seen doesn't license their software correctly (which is very easy, since a lot (but not all) company-only software has no DRM or licensing enforcement), for example consider Microsoft CALs or mishandling of product usage rights (e.G. deploying images without having a volume license + software assurance).

      And don't forget the "enthusiast" home users that needs nothing less than Photoshop to edit the poorly shot pictures he took with a $200 digital camera.

    21. Re:They still don't get it by el+americano · · Score: 1

      I still think most of it wouldn't have been purchased even at a discount. Also, they should subtract those who actually bought after downloading it first, but they won't. Based strictly on the volume of software and media downloaded, obviously most teenagers could only buy a tiny fraction of what they have, even if they wanted to.

      I don't have any problem with the companies trying to estimate their losses - they have lost - but it seems clear that they have an economic incentive to overstate it.

      --
      Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others. -Groucho Marx
    22. Re:They still don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As I understand, 0-day piracy kills the sales and without any protection the game is pirated straight to hell.

      As typical cat&mouse game, the copy protections have gotten heavier when the cracks have gotten better. As a side effect the buyers get the criminal treatment.

    23. Re:They still don't get it by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      As I understand, 0-day piracy kills the sales and without any protection the game is pirated straight to hell.

      Correction: They think 0-day piracy kills sales so they punish the legit customers. In actuality, this has never happened. Spore, for example, had pirated copies out before the game was available on shelves and still sold over 2 million copies. You'd think a game with that level of publicity and anger over its copy restriction scheme would have bombed. But, gee, apparently not everybody is living up to the stereotype.

      As typical cat&mouse game, the copy protections have gotten heavier when the cracks have gotten better. As a side effect the buyers get the criminal treatment.

      There is nothing right about that.

      a.) The buyers have paid for it. They should get the best product, not the worst.

      b.) The worse the restrictions get, the less comfrotable people will be buying a PC game before researching it. That removes it from being an impulse buy. Even if they managed to capture a few sales they wouldn't have before, they're teaching their future customers what caveat emptor means.

      c.) They're feeding the need for pirated software to exist. All this because they think people will go way out of their way to get something for free. (Amusingly a figurehead for the RIAA claimed that they couldn't compete with 'free'. I wonder if that guy has an iTunes account today.)

      d.) Strengthening the copy restrictions won't improve the damaged faith people have with PC Game companies. Again, they're feeding piracy.

      This whole 'cat and mouse' game does not need to take place. Even if it did, even a little kid with a lemonade stand would know that you make less money when you piss off your customers.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    24. Re:They still don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With BitTorrent, that's everyone, isn't it?

    25. Re:They still don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What it actually means is that firstly some proportion of the people who are pirating a game would have bought it in the absence of piracy.

      Okay, so how about the proportion of the people who would not have bought it in the absence of piracy?

      Personally, I really thought I would hate Oblivion, but my friend kept going on and on about how great a game it was. I downloaded it, really loved it and decided it was worth paying full price for. I ended up buying the game and one of its expansion packs.

      A similar thing happened with Final Fantasy 7 back in the day. I had never really liked RPGs before, so I never really considered buying one. Then a friend gave me a (homemade) copy of the PC version of Final Fantasy 7. I now legally own Final Fantasy 1 - 10 (including two different versions of FF8), Final Fantasy 12, a bunch of spinoffs and a number of other JRPGs. Squaresoft / Square-Enix made hundreds of euros off of me, which they never would have if it hadn't been for piracy.

    26. Re:They still don't get it by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      Your premise is flawed. Pirates obviously do value the product even if it's not free, which they show by taking the time and effort to get it.

      There is an interesting concept here that is rarely mentioned and it is the important difference between investment buying and consumption buying.

      Investment buying is the real purpose of a free market economy and is what companies do. Take for example the raw material markets. Businesses buy raw materials as an investment so they can make even more money than they pay for it from producing products. Each buyer values the raw material based on what he can produce and earn from it. And after that, supply & demand kicks in to determine who gets what.

      However, this doesn't work the same way with end consumer buying. An end consumer doesn't buy something because he can use it to produce more value. He buys it because he wants to consume it. And most end consumers want more than they can afford so they have to prioritize. What does this mean for the market? Simply put, end consumers only buy products when the real value they put on it is much higher than the price.

      I hope that explains why a pirate can value something while still not be willing to pay anything for it.

    27. Re:They still don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know about the company you work for, but my previous company (which is ow somewhere around 400 employees) -- pulling in some serious dough (as in, a few hundred million USD in profit, per year -- not too shabby for a company five years old, I'd say) -- didn't have all that much licensed software.

      The Windows licenses were included with the computers, same for the Tiger and Leopard licenses included with the various apple-branded computers we bought.
      Office? Well, I know someone ran out and bought a Vaio laptop at retail, which had Office 2k3 Business Edition included, but that's about it.

      To date, they still don't have any more Office licenses (and it's being used by a majority of employees).
      The main IDE used by the development department for roughly two years was never licensed.

      It's probably fair to say that my workstation was the one with the highest ratio of licensed software, but that's basically because I used my boss' CC to buy TextMate, Parallels, VMware Fusion, UltraEdit, RegexBuddy and SecureCRT.

      It took quite a while to order CS3 for our designers, who had been using CS2 from the beginning. One of 'em switched to a Mac a few months later and started using a pirated OS X version of CS3.

      We did pay for MySQL Enterprise though, at a deeply discounted rate (70-80% discount, if memory serves).

      Yes, a lot of companies do have licenses for the majority (or close to it) of their software, but I haven't encountered a single company where 100% of the software was licensed.

  6. BULLSHIT. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If i buy the game. They treat me like a thief. Install things that may or may not fuckup my computer or game. Require the disk to be in the drive. Require activation and other bullshit. Limit the number of installs i can do. Tell me what programs i'm not allowed to use like daemon tools. And costs a shitload for a semi-beta game.

    If i pirate the game. I don't have any of that. AND it's free.

    Piracy. Better product, lower price.

    You're kinda foolish not to pirate anymore...

    1. Re:BULLSHIT. by Renraku · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I remember when just having the disc in the drive was a step up from having to look up codes on page x line y in some book that came with the game. I remember after that, when copy protection was added, and there was a chance it wouldn't work on your computer, even if you bought it fair and square. I remember when they started adding physical programs that would use memory and make things unstable..sometimes refusing to run if some other legitimate programs were open in the background.

      I remember loading up Steam and playing games without any of those, but I lost the ability to sell off my games.

      I look back at all that and kindly request a damn code sheet or book so I can get to looking up those codes again.

      --
      Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
    2. Re:BULLSHIT. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, agreed. I split the middle, though.. buy the box and never open it, and then play from the pirated download. (I do the same with digital tv shows - I'll pay for the drm option and then delete it, and watch the better quality one I can download as an unencumbered file.)

      I've mentioned it here before and people poo-poo it since I'm showing the companies that I find DRM acceptable, but you know... it's a balance that works for me. I get the nice experience I'd have in a perfect world, game/movie/tv developers/producers/actors get paid as they would in a perfect world.

      I *know* I can't be unique in this, and it makes me wonder how many of the "pirated copies of Spore" are like mine... non-DRM downloads, paired with a 100% retail paid copy that's still in the shrink wrap.

    3. Re:BULLSHIT. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you can sell your Steam account.

    4. Re:BULLSHIT. by tripmine · · Score: 1

      Along with ALL your games?

    5. Re:BULLSHIT. by theaveng · · Score: 1

      I agree 100%. The problem is that technology has advanced. Books were hard to pirate in the 80s so codebooks were effective, but in today's world I can download 3000 pages of Harry Potter directly scanned, and the same is true with a codebook. It's no longer a viable deterrent.

      Perhaps those old spinning codewheels would work, but I doubt it.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    6. Re:BULLSHIT. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But you are just feeding the DRM nonsense. You are paying for DRM and then abandoning it for the pirated version.

    7. Re:BULLSHIT. by cliffski · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As a game developer that does not pull any of that shit, if you have the attitude that it means you should pirate ALL games from ALL developers, where is my incentive to try and meet pirates half way?

      If pirates treat all developers as evil corporate scum, why are they then surprised that developers adopt the same attitude in reverse?

      If people are foolish to not pirate, them I'm foolish to keep making games for the PC. So I'll go work as a plumber instead.
      great solution...

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    8. Re:BULLSHIT. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If people are foolish to not pirate, them I'm foolish to keep making games for the PC. So I'll go work as a plumber instead. great solution...

      Yes. Yes it is. It's about time we stop treating information as a physical commodity. It's about time some people try and *work* for a living rather than expecting society to pay them for *copies* of work done once.

      Copyright law is theft.

    9. Re:BULLSHIT. by twoallbeefpatties · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Buddy, knowing what I know now, if I was given the choice between going into video game development and going into plumbing, I'd have made more money and been more satisfied with my career 99 times out of 100 learning to fix a pipe and pretending I was Mario while doing it.

      You know, if you're going into the games market - or ANY entertainment market, music, movies, books - and expect it to be your career, then you're going to be disappointed unless you really have good contacts and really know what you're doing. This is all kind of tangent to the original article, but the similarity is that figuring out this stuff really isn't that easy. It's not that easy to pitch to your shareholders and executive and marketing that everything will be better if you just don't bother trying to stop pirates, and if you're a company that hasn't had this conversation or innately believes that piracy is wrong in every branch of your organization, then you're probably not big enough to make the Top 100 Dowloads list on thepiratebay.

      Building on what the parent suggests, here, publishers like EA deserve to be excoriated for some of their DRM antics, but just like piracy goes up when the prices of goods goes up, so does the worth of anti-piracy efforts go up when the profits goes down. Do you think that the big conspiracy efforts like Steam to stop people from being able to re-sell their games on the used market would exist if Gamestop hadn't made the used game industry such a serious force? Would piracy really be as much of a bother if it took more than just a Google search to crack a game's copy protection? Lord knows a lot of people would rather just pony up the 99 cents on iTunes than spend days on Limewire trying to find a half-decent quality version of a song for free.

      The only easy thing that can be said about the issue is that there's no flat easy answer. We're still gonna be bitching about this thing a decade from now.

      --
      Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
    10. Re:BULLSHIT. by ucblockhead · · Score: 1, Insightful

      To create a "major" game takes about $5 million. Most of that money goes to salaries. (Look at the credits screen of your average game and then multiply that by their salaries for about a year.)

      Where do you propose the money to pay those people come from?

      What business model do you propose that lets people play the games they want to play and gives the people who actually creates those games the cash they need to live?

      --
      The cake is a pie
    11. Re:BULLSHIT. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      As a game developer that does not pull any of that shit, if you have the attitude that it means you should pirate ALL games from ALL developers, where is my incentive to try and meet pirates half way?

      If what you want from pirates is their money, why wouldn't you listen to them?

      If pirates treat all developers as evil corporate scum, why are they then surprised that developers adopt the same attitude in reverse?

      Why do your non-pirate paying customers have to be punished for it?

      If people are foolish to not pirate, them I'm foolish to keep making games for the PC

      Why isn't it foolish to sell products that have defects for paying customers but not for the ones that haven't paid?

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    12. Re:BULLSHIT. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I don't give a fuck what you do anymore. Pc gameing can die.. I'll be sad, but i'll get over it and go play a console game. Where games just 'work'. like they used to on the pc.

      You game devs started this. You started treating ME. the customer, like crap. Long before i ever pirated anything. And i just got kind of tired of your shit and excuses for it.

      Pirating is MY response to YOUR bullshit.

      The ball is back on your side of the court. What will you do? Make ammends and try to get me back as a customer? Or add yet more DRM and other hoops to jump thru so i will never buy from you again?

      It's a simple choice. Do you want me as a customer again or not?

      So far all the game companys but one (stardock) have picked the wrong choice. And they are the only ones who have gotten any of my money in years.

      The choice is yours. You can win me back. But you're going to have to work at it. Try treating the customers with some honesty and integrity. I tend to respect those. Stop trying to take control of my fucking computer. Stop treating people as if everyone is a thief.

      Otherwise? Well. thanks for the games. i'll be keeping my money. now go fuck yourselves. :)

      Kind of brutal to see your own attitude directed back at you isnt it.

    13. Re:BULLSHIT. by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      If i pirate the game. I don't have any of that

      You still get the semi-beta game. No way of getting around that unfortunally. Mostly right though.

    14. Re:BULLSHIT. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If pirates treat all developers as evil corporate scum, why are they then surprised that developers adopt the same attitude in reverse?

      Hint: game developers need customers (buyers) to survive. The converse isn't true.

      Put another way, the game developers simply aren't in a position to take their ball and go home: it would be their death. The customers, by virtue of being an entirely heterogenous group, WON'T (collectively) take their ball and go home, but if they did, it would at most be a minor inconvenience to them, all things considered.

    15. Re:BULLSHIT. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing is, cliffski, is that hardly anyone has heard of you. Your incentive should first be to get people to have heard of you so they can buy stuff from you.

      Of course, if they're not interested in the games you make (and, honestly, while Kudos/Kudos 2 are neat ideas, I don't particularly want to play them), you may find people not bothering with them anyway.

      This, of course, is as much the problem of not being mass-market as it is the problem of piracy in itself for you - but I don't hear you saying you should be making mass-market style games, as it is "foolish" to keep making games like Kudos.

    16. Re:BULLSHIT. by cliffski · · Score: 1

      so its my fault? and I don't use DRM, and I can go fuck msyelf?

      You sum up a lot of PC gamers these days. and you sum up why nobody wants to make gems for you any more.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    17. Re:BULLSHIT. by cliffski · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Errrr. there is no law saying I can't change careers. I used to be a carpenter for fucks sake. If people refuse to pay for games, I'll change career again.
      What part of this isn't clear?

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    18. Re:BULLSHIT. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good, more then half the games available are crap ripoffs with unoriginal content anyway.
      The market needs readjusting

    19. Re:BULLSHIT. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a game developer that does not pull any of that shit, if you have the attitude that it means you should pirate ALL games from ALL developers, where is my incentive to try and meet pirates half way?

      Ehh. You don't get it, do you?

      I'll state it in simple terms: You're not supposed to meet the pirates half-way. The pirates are not your customers, nor are they going to be. You're supposed to make your games worth buying for those who want to buy them.

      If pirates treat all developers as evil corporate scum, why are they then surprised that developers adopt the same attitude in reverse?

      You really don't get it, apparently. The pirates don't give a shit what you do. The pirates get your games (if they want them) without any protection or DRM. Your customers, however (if you have any), do act surprised when you (as the publisher) make their (as paying customers) lives miserable, through the use of copy-protection and DRM schemes.

      Again: The pirates don't care. Your customers do. Why do you want to piss off your customers, again?

      If people are foolish to not pirate, them I'm foolish to keep making games for the PC. So I'll go work as a plumber instead.
      great solution...

      Based on your apparent inability to understand the issue, the difference between pirates and (potential or current) customers, I'm more or less forced to tell you, that yes, your changing profession and becoming a plumber would most likely be a much better solution for you as well as your (otherwise suffering) customers.

      And some people wonder why they fail at business...

    20. Re:BULLSHIT. by Esteanil · · Score: 1

      Honestly? Kudos 2 feels too high priced compared to the level of playability you get. Kinda like a text-only version of The Sims with a web interface, only done on the desktop ;-P But still, compared to most other indie games it's pretty cool, so you'll be the game dev I pay this xmas to pretend I still have some ethics in this pirate world ;-)
      But you don't really have much of a chance, no matter how "nice" you play. People have gotten used to piracy, it's just so damn simple.
      Going to a torrent site and typing "Kudos 2" in the search field is way easier than filling out my details, logging in to paypal, checking my email and *then* downloading - to get the game the "official" way off your site.
      But, as I said, this xmas you'll be my excuse, so Kudos 2 is on it's way down - the official way :-P

      --
      I'm a dreamer, the world is my playpen. But hey, I'm a serious person, I can't dream all the time.
    21. Re:BULLSHIT. by Esteanil · · Score: 1

      And what's the deal with the full Kudos 2 installer being smaller than the demo one?

      --
      I'm a dreamer, the world is my playpen. But hey, I'm a serious person, I can't dream all the time.
    22. Re:BULLSHIT. by anethema · · Score: 1

      Sell one copy of the game for $8 million I guess(Gotta have some markup.)

      There, not selling copies and treating it like physical medium. I've solved all the problems.

      What do I win?

      --


      It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
    23. Re:BULLSHIT. by ucblockhead · · Score: 1

      A copy of Tux Racer.

      --
      The cake is a pie
    24. Re:BULLSHIT. by mjwx · · Score: 1
      Many people cant tell the difference between "Developers" and "Publishers".

      For the most part it is not the developers who add BS like DRM into games, its the managers who work for the publishers that insist on it being added at the last minute (to avoid it being broken before release of course). This becomes apparent when we look at Developer/Publishers like Stardock and Valve who do not add onerous DRM into their games or in the case of Stardock are completely DRM free (I have my problems with steam though, a minute and a half of loading time is how long it takes me to find something else to do). I remember reading a thread on the official Bioshock forums called something like "the stupidity of Ken Levine" where Levine tried to explain his position on DRM and how it was a choice made by the project manager. That thread was deleted within 24 hours because someone threatened the manager in question. Reading this thread I began to understand just how much developers were interfered with by their corporate overlords and really began to see the difference between a Game Developer and a Game Publisher.

      As a game developer that does not pull any of that shit, if you have the attitude that it means you should pirate ALL games from ALL developers, where is my incentive to try and meet pirates half way?

      Not all of us think like that. I like most gamers, am over 25, have a full time job and plenty of disposable currency and not much time to waste so buying games is my preference so long as it is not too onerous. Legitimate ownership can never compete with piracy in terms of price but it can compete in every other way, more specfically in:
      - Ease of use (no buggerising around with crack)
      - Availablity (I can purchase a game in less time then it takes to DL it from a torrent)
      - After sales support (EA, Ubisoft you may want to learn what this is)
      - Multi-player
      In other words, always purchase unless it is more difficult then pirating. The problem is that DRM takes away the ease of use part, EA, Ubisoft and several other "big name" publishers like to release and forget games even when they have massive glaring bugs and while I realise that games are so complex these days that it is impossible to avoid having bugs, Zero day patching should not happen nor should any bug be ignored.

      If pirates treat all developers as evil corporate scum, why are they then surprised that developers adopt the same attitude in reverse?

      I'm surprised, and I refuse to support any developer or publisher who would take such an attitude. I dislike the attitude of certain publishers that they are entitled to make money, DRM is a product of the thinking that people can and should be forced to buy their product. Publishers cannot force people to buy anything, what they can do however is entice people to buy their product, this is done by adding value (or hype, but hype always fades quickly, see:spore), Stardock and Valve release a lot of after sales content which makes their games more valuable, DRM on the other hand detracts from the value of a game. This is why if given the choice I'll buy from Stardock or Steam

      I've never pirated from a small publisher, I did once pirate from Stardock (Gal Civ 2, it was given to me by a friend, not downloaded), I like the game so much I bought it 2 days later and was surprised to find that it cost a full A$20 less then any other new release game. Since then Stardock has had 5 other sales from me and I'm patiently waiting for the first SINS expansion pack.

      A few comments about your site however,
      You should put the price of the game on the same page as the description, even just at the bottom. Its a pain in the arse having to go the the online store just to find out how much it costs (other useful info includes download size, min system requirements, date of release).
      An AUD option in the online store would be nice (but this may be outside of your control though).

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    25. Re:BULLSHIT. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's fine. You are free to do whatever you want.

      But guess what. *I* have the money you want.

      And you? you have um.. hmm. nothing i can't download.

      Guess which one of us will win if you continue to fight your customers?

    26. Re:BULLSHIT. by cliffski · · Score: 1

      the demo has the upsell screen in it. that's the only difference between the two. (apart from save / laod disable and the time limit).
      I put the entire game in the demo, to avoid pirates complaining and claiming that its not representative...

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    27. Re:BULLSHIT. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fantastic!

      You're saying if we continue to pirate games, all the half-assed devs who are in it purely for the cash will jump to the next profitable wagon, and we'll be left with the hobbyists and passionate devs who actually give a crap about what they're putting into our culture?

      Maybe we can get back to 'artists' actually having to create art before they collect on pay-day - as opposed to crapping out the same repetitive shit, slapping a completely mis-representative promo vid on it, and calling it a creative work deserving of $millions.

      The last PC game i bought was Medieval Total War - since then I've 'ooh-ed' and 'ahh-ed' at about 10 to 20 titles that looked sodding amazing. Not one of them had demos available. I bought the first couple and was sorely disappointed. I pirated the next few and was just as disappointed, but at least i wasnt out 40 quid. I've stopped altogether now, as I've come to realise that even the dev teams you thought you could you trust, are willing to sell some POS that wont last more than 10 hours of gameplay, and isn't even worth pirating since im under download caps.

      The message is simple: If you are actually worth the money you demand, I will hear about your game. IF i hear enough good things, I will want to try it. If you don't let me try it legally - I will pirate it. If after all this, its a good game, then you and your team have +1 karma from me. At this point, I will tell all my mates about, so we can play it together. Once your next game comes out, and I see its by a team that produced such an excellent title, I will considerably more likely to risk the chance on a purchase - tho a demo would be preferred first.

      If you don't like this... tough. You made your bed, you poisoned your own well with craptastic sequels and rip-offs, and then you tried to extort us when these POS didnt sell on their own merits. Well this is a wake up call for devs - not only do you need to adapt to a new market model that appreciates the difference between digital and physical media (i.e. they dont cost the same to produce, ergo dont expect the same pricing to work) but you need to get back to making some products that are actually worth owning.

    28. Re:BULLSHIT. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I pirate games. I also buy games. At least, the ones which I try out, and feel are good products.

      The problem with the scenario is that once purchased, one day that game will no longer be usable.

      If you want the same game, or movie, or tv series, to last, you effectively have to purchase it again because someone else decides that format is out of date. I have a HUGE problem with that logic.

      That's why the book market faces none of this DRM lunacy.

    29. Re:BULLSHIT. by Esteanil · · Score: 1

      Btw, I'd suggest saving the game as "Demo Firstname Lastname" on demo time out and "To continue your life as Alex Murphy, buy the full game today". Should probably be able to keep more than 1 character from demo to full game.

      Installing Kudos 2 when I already had Kudos 2 Demo installed got slightly confusing (there are now 2 shortcuts in my start menu called "Kudos") and would probably be more confusing for less experienced users.

      So, my suggestion would be making the "real" Kudos installer uninstall the Kudos Demo and load the saved (timed out) games. "Do you want to continue your life as Marc Fergus. Jane Moosh or Start a New Game?". Well, either that or make the process of upgrading from demo to full edition not require any additional downloads but be done seamlessly from within the demo...

      Oh, and some better integration with the Paypal API on your site would make the purchase process easier. (Why should I fill out my name/address when Paypal can tell you automatically? Why do I have to wait for an email when you could redirect me directly to the download as soon as I've placed my purchase?)

      --
      I'm a dreamer, the world is my playpen. But hey, I'm a serious person, I can't dream all the time.
    30. Re:BULLSHIT. by Esteanil · · Score: 1

      And why didn't you include a big rebate for your other games with my purchase? I'm sure you'd get some additional purchases if the email with the download link included "20% off on Kudos Rock Legend, Democracy 2 and Ancient Lux! And as you are a valued customer, for the next week you can download Kudos 1 and Democracy 1 for free here!." Naturally mentioning the offer again on the web site for the free downloads.

      (Why: 1: Upselling is easier than selling. 2: Give someone something for free and they'll feel an urge to repay it. 3: Time limits increase the odds of people actually doing something.)

      --
      I'm a dreamer, the world is my playpen. But hey, I'm a serious person, I can't dream all the time.
    31. Re:BULLSHIT. by cliffski · · Score: 1

      The website purchase process is handled by BMT Micro on my behalf. As I understand it that delay is for fraud checking, but I don't know much about the specifics of it tbh. You are right about making the demo save out a game ready for the full version. It's something I had originally planned but never got around to...

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
  7. 10 Page Article VERY LONG by the_macman · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Introduction

    If there's a single topic that's guaranteed to cause heated debate among PC gamers today, it's piracy and the impact it's having on the PC gaming industry. Almost every gamer you speak to has a strong opinion on this topic, ranging from full support for piracy to total condemnation of it. In the past year in particular this issue has really come to a head, with one major PC game developer after another stepping forward to point to piracy as a clear and present danger to the industry.

    As a long-time PC gamer, I have to confess that I've become extremely frustrated with reading the numerous discussions and articles on piracy. PC piracy and related topics such as DRM seem to have become so shrouded in illogical excuses, hysteria, scaremongering and uninformed opinions that having a sensible discussion on the topic is virtually impossible. While it's true to say that it's very difficult to obtain completely accurate and conclusive data on piracy and its impacts, it doesn't help that there are a range of vested interests deliberately spreading misinformation on piracy-related issues.

    I decided it was time to compile an article which takes a close look at every facet of PC game piracy with a view to hopefully clarifying the debate with a range of facts. I'm not looking to repeat the same old one-sided, superficial examinations of PC piracy that you'll find everywhere else. What this article does is examine PC game piracy in a logical manner, taking into consideration a range of publicly available evidence to provide an informed view of the current state of play. I encourage those of you who are genuinely interested in this topic to take the time to make your way through this rather long but thorough article, as I believe it provides a great deal of food for thought for those willing to read it.

    As you may have noticed, this article is quite long. The reason for this is because it tries to do something that other articles on piracy have failed to do: examine this complex and controversial topic in detail and with a wide range of relevant facts and verified information. Other articles take the easy path by slapping together some unsubstantiated opinions and dubious arguments which merely follow whatever the popular sentiment is on this topic, and come to the usual conclusions. Let me be clear: I won't be doing that here. I've invested a great deal of time into actually delving into all the various aspects of this issue, thinking through all the issues and getting a good handle on the situation based on a large amount of publicly available data. Consequently throughout the article you will find numerous references to reputable data sources and first-hand information rather than just hearsay and conjecture.

    That's not to say it's just an article filled with data and theory. I've tried very hard to keep things as straightforward as possible, using plain English and plenty of straightforward examples. I've also tried to make this a balanced examination of piracy, however bear in mind that this doesn't mean that all sides of the debate have equally valid arguments. It simply means that I've examined and weighed up all the various arguments and facts, and present the most logical and plausible view in light of these.

    You can skip straight to whichever section of the article interests you, but I recommend reading the entire article from start to finish at some point despite its length, as every section contains important information, and the arguments and data spread throughout this article form a complete picture of piracy. Taking small portions of the article out of context in some sort of half-hearted attempt at debasing it is meaningless. If your only interest in reading the article is to quickly skim through it to see if it supports your preconceived notions of piracy, then you're probably better off not bothering with it in the first place.

    Note: Because this is a long article, if you find the text size uncomfortable after a while, hold down your CTRL key a

    1. Re:10 Page Article VERY LONG by ccguy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Obviously you are aiming at a cheap +5 informative.

      Would be nice to respect other people's work, as these people weren't obviously aiming at 10 cheap ad pages.

    2. Re:10 Page Article VERY LONG by FugitiveMind · · Score: 1

      ZOMG he pirated it.

    3. Re:10 Page Article VERY LONG by drquoz · · Score: 4, Funny

      Dude, you just pirated that article.

    4. Re:10 Page Article VERY LONG by theaveng · · Score: 1

      He sure did. He's depriving the original author or dollars earned through ad-views.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    5. Re:10 Page Article VERY LONG by Vexorian · · Score: 1

      Obviously you were aiming at a cheap +3 Interesting.

      --

      Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
    6. Re:10 Page Article VERY LONG by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What ads? I have AdBlock :)

  8. Morals by 4D6963 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Piracy is the result of human nature: when faced with the option of getting something for free or paying for it, and in the absence of any significant risks, you don't need complex economic studies to show you that most people will opt for the free route.

    Right, there's also moral values in the balance. To some people piracy is all bad, to some people everything should be free, to some other people it's fine to pirate from big studios but not from small developers who try to make a living out of it. It's called moral values. It varies from people to people, with also varying degrees of importance in the role it plays in decision making.

    --
    You just got troll'd!
    1. Re:Morals by AlexMax2742 · · Score: 1

      "Moral values" generally go out the window when you think you won't get caught.

      --
      I'm the guy with the unpopular opinion
    2. Re:Morals by celticryan · · Score: 1

      Its called INTEGRITY. Something that most teenagers lack and in our culture of "blame someone else for our problems" something more and more adults will lack.

      That being said, where does the person who pirates a game to check it out and then buys it fall? I don't pirate games because I don't care that much to go through the time and hassle of torrenting a 20 Gig game. If I want it that badly I make the decision on whether or not to buy it.

      I agree with the original poster and article that there does seem to be this culture of revolution surrounding any kind of file sharing that thinks it is some making a social and political statement through theft. Hell, maybe they are since Sweden has the "Pirate Party".

    3. Re:Morals by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      Like I said, "with also varying degrees of importance in the role it plays in decision making". What you say doesn't apply to anyone, so people are more attached to their moral values than that, depending on what their moral values even say about the problem in question (i.e. you can be very attached to your morals but think it's fine to pirate, or you can think it's bad to pirate but do it anyways because you don't care that much for your principles on the topic).

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    4. Re:Morals by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      Ah, teenagers! The eternal root of all evil.

      Note that my enunciation of moral choices regarding this topic was non-exhaustive, and while I characterised the problem as bi-dimensional it was a simplification.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    5. Re:Morals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit.

      Claiming that "everyone is right" and citing moral relativism does nothing to justify this. It is considered a problem by many industries, pirates know this, and yet they persist in piracy. That isn't moral values, that is the absence of them. Don't try to make this a deep philosophical issue, because it isn't. This is the free rider problem.

      Conflating this to be a 'social revolution' only shows how far up their ass these people are. Yeah, a social revolution in which you benefit immensely from. How convenient for you: you can hide behind the guise of "progressive" ideology while indulging your selfishness and materialistic wants.

    6. Re:Morals by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      Quit trying to read between the lines, twit. All I said was that moral values also played a part.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    7. Re:Morals by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      "Moral values" generally go out the window when you think you won't get caught.

      statistically, only 13% of burglaries are ever solved. This has been spoken on the news and various prime-time crime shows for ages.

      Robbery has not gone through the roof since this statistic started floating around.

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    8. Re:Morals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And some people pirate when a free alternative is not available, while at the same time donating money to their favorite FOSS projects.

      I am one of those. The last thing I pirated was some rather crappy NTFS recovery software, after an "accident" (stupidy on my part) with my XP partition. Before you ask, XP is also pirated, and it's primary function is beeing a game launcher.

      To me, free (as in speech) feels "right", so I donate to small projects I find usefull. I imagine my money is worth more then than by donations to large projects that already has corporate backing.

      When it comes to music, I never pay for stuff from the media moguls, but buy CDs from independent artists. (cdbaby.com is a good source.) Yes, I like the plastic discs.

      As for movies, I have a DVD collection of about 100 films, all original, and most of them MPAA connected. This is about price. Today, most DVDs are actually quite reasonably priced. A music CD is usually not when thinking about what part of the price goes to the artist.

    9. Re:Morals by AlexMax2742 · · Score: 1

      Apples and Oranges. World of Goo had a 90% piracy rate when released with no DRM.

      --
      I'm the guy with the unpopular opinion
  9. What about quality of the product? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The OP suggests that "most people will opt for the free route" simply because the product is free. I would argue that due to overly restrictive DRM, people prefer the free route because "hacked" or pirated products are better. I buy DVDs, but I wouldn't buy DRMed movies because it's effectively wasted money -- one day those movies will be unwatchable.

    Also, in the field of ebooks, often it is possible to find an ebook that's been pirated when no legal copy exists for sale. In this case, the publishing companies are not servicing a demand that is clearly present. Sure, I could scan in my own paper copy of the book, but why go to the trouble when someone else has already done it?

    1. Re:What about quality of the product? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So to notice that the product is restrictive they would need first to buy it, no? And if they all would buy it there would be no need for DRM.. hmm..

      I see egg and chicken.. maybe something BIG, like the complexity, is missing from this picture.

    2. Re:What about quality of the product? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this really true? I have a friend through whom I know quite a few acquaintances and you know what I found incredibly interesting? They pirate every game they can, except for WoW* and sometimes Battlefield 2. You know why? Because they can't. It's useless. You can't play Euro Forces or Armored Fury without a registration on EA's site. This is a whole bunch (20-30) of people aged 20-22. It's incredible! In this place at least, DRM (and the latter game, the subscription model) works.

      *To give them some credit, they did try to play WoW on private servers.

    3. Re:What about quality of the product? by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      I own dvd boxes of most seasons of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" (hey, I happened to enjoy the show in general). Anyway, I can say that I much prefer watching a ripped version.

      Why? Because I don't have to sit through the FBI warnings, intros and crappy menu systems. Instead I can just click on a video file and run it immediatly. Sure, the pirated version I have doesn't have the extra commentry soundtracks or subtitles. You usually have to look for non-scene releases to get encodings with such material in it.

    4. Re:What about quality of the product? by aj50 · · Score: 1

      Did you completely fail to read the article before commenting?

      Allow me to point you to this helpful nugget on page 8:

      The argument that removing DRM will result in a net increase in sales has no basis in fact based on the evidence at hand. Not only does gaming history show that unprotected games simply lead to more piracy, recent history also demonstrates clearly that simply removing DRM is not the answer to piracy. As we saw in the Scale of Piracy section, many popular games which have no intrusive DRM, such as Assassin's Creed, Crysis, Call of Duty 4 and World of Goo, also have some of the highest piracy rates in 2008. Indeed as I write this, the new Prince of Persia game was released yesterday for PC (December 10, 2008) with absolutely no DRM protection, and a quick look at torrents shows that the cracked version is available, and on two popular torrent links alone there are over 23,000 people downloading the game within the first 24 hours. The evidence is overwhelmingly clear: DRM does not cause piracy, piracy results in DRM.

      Movies, on the other hand, are a whole different question to pc games.

      --
      I wish to remain anomalous
    5. Re:What about quality of the product? by isilrion · · Score: 1

      "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"...
      Would you happen to know where to get those ripped versions?

      You see, I don't care about the FBI warnings... But they don't want to sell it in my country, with or without warnings. And even if they were to sell them, the prices (per season) are about 3 times my monthly income. And, after saving for a while to get a couple of seasons, they refuse to ship it...

      So, to further your point, not only the ripped versions tend to be of higher quality (less warnings and intrusive menus), but sometimes, they are the only choice.

    6. Re:What about quality of the product? by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      www.isohunt.com
      www.mininova.org

      Just go to one of those sites and search.

      As for which torrent client to use to download? Most recommend utorrent because of its small size. If you are using linux or mac, there are other alternatives. As always when it comes to filesharing, you should seed back as much as much as you take. It is the polite thing to do.

      Unless you are knowledgable in where to get video codecs it is also nice to have Videolan installed as a video player. It is unintrusive and completly seperate from the rest of the system and supports pretty much everything. Personally I prefer to use a player that use codecs that the system have installed, but I still have Videolan as a backup.

      Finally, always be skeptical and a little paranoid. Never download executables (.exe,.msi) from non trustable sources. Still, it should be pretty easy to pick out fakes from real material just by reading comments on the torrent sites. This is not meant to scare you. Just use your brain and you should be fine.

    7. Re:What about quality of the product? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used to pirate some PC games (as well as buying some), but after finding various cracks I downloaded contained viruses or trojans, I abandoned this and now only purchase the games legally. I don't want to save the cost of a game (not much more than the price of a restaurant meal for 2), only to find my PC full of viruses that are potentially opening me up to ID theft, etc.

      Think about it - when downloading a crack you are running software designed by somebody proven to have dodgy motives. Do you really want software running by these people running on the same PC you do emails, banking etc.?

  10. is he an idiot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I stopped reading when he told me that Usenet is now becoming a rapidly growing file-sharing method. Usenet is a rapidly declining file-sharing method that I would guess peaked in the mid/late nineties. Does anyone seriously use Usenet for piracy these days?

    1. Re:is he an idiot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know. Having not been on usenet since my *LAST* ISP quit supporting it like 5+ years ago I haven't has a chance to check. However I'd heard a while back that a number of 0 day groups still used it for initial distribution before it hit torrents or whatnot.

      Although then again I've also heard it's still mainly private FTP servers, which as a whole date back to the wee days of the internet.

    2. Re:is he an idiot? by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1

      Ever see a torrent that's full of .rar file segments?

      They're full of .rar chunks because that's how the 0-day group released it on usenet.

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    3. Re:is he an idiot? by Cythrawl · · Score: 0

      Lets see... You can get a 7.6gb Torrent in around 2-3 days from a so called 0-day release...

      With Usenet you get the same release within hours.. Anyone who is serious into pirating NOT using usenet isnt a pirate. Check out NFOHump's forums... nearly every one on there downloads using usenet. I think you need to re-check your facts my friend..

    4. Re:is he an idiot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would suggest going to http://www.binsearch.info/ and try typing in a few things. If you crank the maximum post age up to match a good server like Giganews, you can pretty much get anything you're looking for, old and new.

  11. DRM by Kranerian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The article goes on an extensive analogy about DRM equaling Door Locks, and it completely misses the point. Yes, DRm prevents the majority of hackers from being able to do anything to the actual, hard copy of the game. This is worthless, though. All it take is for one person to break through the protection and upload it to a torrent site, and then everybody with internet access can have the game for free. It does not matter that most people couldn't break the encryption themselves. They don't need to, because somebody else already has.

    --
    Do you have any idea how long it takes to dig graves for twenty-three oak trees?
    1. Re:DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're missing the point, there is a time element you're forgetting about. If the DRM can prevent a zero-day or day-one crack, then the DRM has done its job. If the DRM is cracked or if the game is released early than their sales (which are naturally highest on release day) are noticeably and unquestionably cannibalized.

      Sure all DRM is eventually broken, but as long as it's done after major sales has died down, they don't care.

    2. Re:DRM by aj50 · · Score: 1

      You appear to have completely missed his point.

      DRM (like door locks) is useless for preventing the large scale piracy but effective at stopping casual piracy between friends.

      --
      I wish to remain anomalous
    3. Re:DRM by timbo234 · · Score: 1

      Depends on how you define 'casual piracy': DRM may be a disincentive to copying game DVDs between a few friends, but it's clearly no disincentive to the equally 'casual' (in that its easily acheived) copying of games on a vast scale through P2P.

      And this is where the locks analogy proves false - once one person has cracked the DRM 'lock' then everybody can have access to the game, easily, with no need to crack the 'lock' themselves. With physical locks there may be some people who can pick a lock in 5 minutes, but this skill doesn't easily transfer to the vast majority of people who can't, and who'd require quite a lot of effort and practice to do so.

      --
      Pre-canned Evolution Links for all those Slashdot holy wars.
    4. Re:DRM by Jef7 · · Score: 1

      DRM ... This is worthless, though. All it take is for one person to break through the protection and upload it to a torrent site.

      Ah, no. Perhaps try reading the article. His point is that DRM delays the crackers. Even a few days of exclusivity increases the game's early sales.

    5. Re:DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read the stupid article. DRM isn't there to prevent the game being cracked, DRM is there to prevent the game being cracked *immediately*. If tons of AAA titles are coming out every weekend your first weekend will be by far the best for sales since your title will get old and lost to the public eye quickly.

      Then if there's a crack for your game the day it's released or even before that, your sales that weekend are screwed. By putting in significant delay of unknown length, they get many people who won't want to wait like that to buy the game.

  12. Better Support from the Scene by critical_point · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The bottom line is that the Scene provides better long-term support then most game companies ever have, and I only like to buy the games that I can and will indefinitely far into the future, which usually requires some variety of cracks and emulators, which is why even the games I have bought in the past are not installed in favor of the infringed+enhanced versions.

    1. Re:Better Support from the Scene by AlexMax2742 · · Score: 1

      If that's true, then why does the article assert that a non-trivial portion of the people calling support lines for games are using pirated copies?

      --
      I'm the guy with the unpopular opinion
    2. Re:Better Support from the Scene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those are probably the people who don't know any better. I doubt someone who has an idea of what they're doing wouldn't waste their time.

    3. Re:Better Support from the Scene by kaizokuace · · Score: 1

      I didn't RTFA but, usually when someone is asserting some statistic or trend in an article I would do the smart thing and try to find out where they are getting their data from. Do they cite it in the article? If not then it's a poorly written and researched article. There is a reason you have cite everything in college papers!

      --
      Balderdash!
  13. excuse me, mr. idiot by unity100 · · Score: 1, Troll

    "Fast forward to the 21st century, and piracy has apparently somehow become a political struggle, a fight against greedy corporations and evil copy protection, and in some cases, I've even seen some people refer to the rise of piracy as a 'revolution.' What an absolute farce. ... Piracy is the result of human nature: when faced with the option of getting something for free or paying for it, and in the absence of any significant risks, you don't need complex economic studies to show you that most people will opt for the free route.

    and political struggles and revolutions are EXACTLY that.

    an unglorified movement of 'rabble', at least at the start, which developes into a formatted, defined ideological struggle.

    if you had seen french revolutionaries in 1789, you would want to spray them with insecticide. it was a total stampede of barbarians. but then, in 2-3 years' time, it has become the very thing that awarded your sorry ass with the modern social guidelines about human rights, civil conduct we know today.

    piracy is exactly like that. just like it was back in 17th century, in which mercantilism was the order of the day. smugglers and pirates and traders ignored royal laws and edicts and traded with the nations they were barred from trading. the nations who were prevented from trading turned to piracy. no armada was able to stop piracy up until end of 16th century, when countries eased mercantilist laws and started trading with each other. then piracy waned like an extinguishing candle.

    same goes with software/music/movie piracy. IF, you are not providing a product that justifies it cost with EVERY aspect of itself, people WILL pirate and even out the thing. even if it takes more hassle to actually find a good, acceptable, virus free, quality copy of the game, movie, music, and even if it takes days to download and set up to watch (those horrible codecs and filters), even if it is missing on features .... AS LONG AS the hassle justifies the thing, they will do it.

    now imagine something different. imagine that, im able to acquire a game i need for $10. imagine that i can acquire it online at any time, directly download it to my computer in just half an hour. imagine it works regardless of where i put it, without any installation, shitty copy protection, problems, anything. do you think, unless im really in need of cash, AND i have the means to pay that company online through internet without any security/privacy issues, i still would go through the hassle that is pirating ?

    i wouldnt. and i dont. and IF i was in desperate need of $10, you wouldnt take my money regardless of the laws or enforcements you might have put out. thats a segment of society that is never going to be able to pay for those, so get charging them out of your mind already.

    an excellent example is spore. there was too much hype about the game, and the premise looked good. so, i go, buy it, shelling out $30, thinking it was a game worthy of my cash. i come home, i install the thing, only to discover that it is shitting with my computer, trying to install stuff i do not want on it. i go get a crack for the exe so it wont be disturbing MY property in a way i dont want. i actually, had to, CRACK a game i have PAID for. this is an irony that can kill people.

    6 hours of gameplay, another 3 hours of forced gameplay on the weekend, another 4 hours more on sunday, and i decide game wasnt worth either my 30 bucks, or the hassle i went through for the cracking. now i think, if i had known that it was going to be like that beforehand, i wouldnt even take the hassle of pirating and acquiring it through the internet even.

    too few are the games im going paying and buying boxed. and they generally happen to be the same software houses' stuff. you know, bioware, blizzard and so on. the companies who actually at least TRY to continue the pre-1995 (advent of the cd) era of innovative, entertaining game developme

    1. Re:excuse me, mr. idiot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are an idiot. RTFA.

    2. Re:excuse me, mr. idiot by abbamouse · · Score: 1

      if you had seen french revolutionaries in 1789, you would want to spray them with insecticide. it was a total stampede of barbarians. but then, in 2-3 years' time, it has become the very thing that awarded your sorry ass with the modern social guidelines about human rights, civil conduct we know today. ...and in one more year the Great Terror began. Indeed, we can thank the revolutionaries for introducing the word "terrorism" to our modern vocabulary.

      --
      Make cheese not war 8:)
    3. Re:excuse me, mr. idiot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So basically you are saying that: "the games are crap, they're all worthless, I do not enjoy them at all... Yet I got to have them one way or another."

      Why do you insist on getting the games if you dislike them so much? Because there's no better alternative and you are entitled to at least some entertainment?

      What drives sales is people's desire to play the games. If someone wants to play a game enough to pirate it, then he wants to play it enough to potentially buy it if he had no other way to play it, and this has nothing to do with how much he would actually enjoy the game in practice. The payment is not for satisfaction (which can often be subjective), but for acquiring a service (entertainment).

      When you are not satisfied with a service, such as a restaurant, you respond by not eating there anymore. It's obviously not the same mechanism with games, since you can buy that service only once, but there still are ways to preview it before you purchase: demo versions, online reviews, and so on...

      So if you preview a game and decide that it sucks, you can avoid buying it, and thus not waste your money. And if you preview another game, and decide it sucks, you don't buy that game either. And if you preview every game on store shelves, and decide they all suck, you don't get any of them, but now you're starting to go crazy because you desperately crave some entertainment, and at that point you become a potential consumer, and if your desire to play *something* is so strong that you are willing to ignore the fact that it may not be too good, then you become a customer.

      You may feel like this is a very lame situation- all entertainment sucks, yet I'm forced to pay for it because otherwise I'll go crazy from boredom, but the truth is that there's a lot of good entertainment out there. The underground music scene is huge, there are many old movies which are great, as well as old games, and there's an indie game market where games are cheap. I don't know how good they are, but the point is that you have places to go to that may fulfill your needs.

    4. Re:excuse me, mr. idiot by unity100 · · Score: 1

      please, read with your eyes next time, instead of your butt. if you actually take a second run, and use your eyes this time, you'll see that i dont feel the need to have them anymore.

      please, get real. previews .....

      do you think that a preview is an actual reflection of a game ? pal. if you actually do, i have a bridge to sell you. previews are marketing tools. what you are given in any preview, falls little short of lying to you, if you are in the target demographic.

      'there's great music out there !!' -> but there isnt 'huge time' in here. i dont have the time to navigate around like bedouin, searching and seeking 'greatest' indie music groups, or indie games. of course, if you employ me part time, but pay full time, that can change.

  14. Something missing by xbytor · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I know there are people like myself who purchase games, don't install them, but do install a downloaded copy that has the DRM restrictions removed. This may or may not be viable with Steam-related DRM, but I'm anti-social enough that online multiplayer doesn't really hold a whole lot of appeal for me. And if I did decide that I absolutely had to play something online, I setup an account just for that game so that I could resell my original copy (with the account info) when I was finished with it.

    1. Re:Something missing by Vexorian · · Score: 1

      I know there are people like myself who purchase games, don't install them, but do install a downloaded copy that has the DRM restrictions removed.

      Yeah... I was wondering why would you do that?. You are basically pirating because the pirated product is better than the original AND buying the original for no actual reason, other than possibly financing the corporate brains that will add DRM to next games forcing you to pirate them as well... It is non-sense to me.

      ... well, if you feel guilty of having to pirate due to DRM, there's always the other option, not playing that game... They do not understand a language other than money.

      --

      Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
  15. More Bullshit by maz2331 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Some of the copy-protection schemes are also designed to try and kill the secondary ("used games") market off by locking out copies from being reactivated.

    The mindset of some of these companies is that a game (or other software) has to generate revenue for them each time it changes hands. In other words, they refuse to accept the "first sale doctrine" at all.

    Buying one copy and distributing multiple copies to others is piracy. Uninstalling the thing and giving the disk and key to someone else is not.

    It all boils down to greed and control, really.

    1. Re:More Bullshit by theaveng · · Score: 1

      Yeah that's the part that pisses me off. I should be able to buy Final Fantasy 10-2 at $50, play it, decide it's crap, and sell it to someone else for $40. Or, get a refund. I don't care if it's store credit, but I should be able to return lousy games, not just swallow the loss.

      If Sony has its way, I won't be able to do that with Final Fantasy 14. I will be sold an online license, and I'll be stuck with the game, unable to sell it to the next person (because it won't work for them).

      A perpetual rental, not ownership.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    2. Re:More Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think this is the real reason these publishers keep including DRM software. It's not about preventing piracy. It's about killing the secondhand market.

      They know DRM doesn't work in stopping people from copying it. It doesn't even delay it any more. Spore, Assassin's Creed and others were being torrented even before those games were on shelves. The only people inconvenienced are the people who buy the retail copy.

      They know this, so why do it anyway? Because tying the game to an account or mandating online activation of some kind makes it difficult, if not impossible, to buy a used a copy. If they think that's going to drive up sales, they're even more out of touch with reality than we already think they are.

      I read that article on Tweakguide the other day. The guy claims he has no bias, then writes an article that works from a clear bias of "piracy is bad, pirates just want free stuff, DRM is good, people dislike DRM because it works and pirates don't like that and any arguments to the contrary are all bunk". I don't know who he is, but he goes on like an industry shill.

      Example. He spends a whole page defending StarForce. He gleefully mentions the small "reward" Starforce offered to anyone that could demonstrate it damaging a PC, but takes care to avoid mentioning that anyone wanting to give that demonstration would have to do so at their office in Moscow, a trip that would cost far more than the prize they were offering.

  16. Most of "their" Statistics have no source by theaveng · · Score: 1

    You'll often hear these companies say something like, "$100 billion is lost to piracy ever year," but when you ask for a source, then cannot provide one. Sure they might say something like "I copied it from XYZ document," but that document doesn't list a source either. It's a factoid that comes from nowhere.

    A society that holds itself to embrace science, rationality, and logic should ignore numbers that have no sources. Do not accept numbers that came from no place.

    --
    FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    1. Re:Most of "their" Statistics have no source by theaveng · · Score: 1

      P.S.

      Read more about these unsourced numbers (no origination point) here: http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/dodgy-digits-behind-the-war-on-piracy.ars

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    2. Re:Most of "their" Statistics have no source by similar_name · · Score: 2, Funny

      A society that holds itself to embrace science, rationality, and logic should ignore numbers that have no sources. Do not accept numbers that came from no place.

      Where is that society? I would love to move there.

  17. Sociological Studies Disagree by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Piracy is the result of human nature: when faced with the option of getting something for free or paying for it, and in the absence of any significant risks, you don't need complex economic studies to show you that most people will opt for the free route."

    The article summary includes the following quote, but it doesn't actually seem to be the case if you actually study the issue. In many studies it has been shown that "honor systems" result in fewer thefts than systems where there are technological or potential criminal penalties. In many, many cases building a system of trust and relying upon people's morals and ethics is the most effective solution.

    I scanned this article and then gave up because it seemed unoriginal and completely one-sided. If you can't even understand the perspective of people on one side of an issue, how can you rant for so many pages about your perspective on it?

    1. Re:Sociological Studies Disagree by yoshi_mon · · Score: 2

      Furthermore I'd argue that I'm willing to bet the author does not even consider that some software is just plain bad. Couple that with the return and very questionable status of the First Sale doctrine it's no surprise that some people choose to look at software 1st before plunking down virtually nonrefundable monies on it.

      I'll grant that of course there are those who are going to opt for getting stuff for free no matter what. If the author had any integrity he'd mention how software piracy is used often to test software before you buy. (No I did not RTFA and if he did at least give a nod to said argument then I suppose I'll cut him/her some slack. I'm betting thou it's more more of the typical black and white kinda view of the world that is easy for people to understand yet does a horrible job in actually expressing what goes on.)

      --

      Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
    2. Re:Sociological Studies Disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Honor systems only work when people are watching you.

    3. Re:Sociological Studies Disagree by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      Honor systems only work when people are watching you.

      Actually, in several studies placing a video camera on the scene to provide the perception that one might be watched led to an increase in theft, not a decrease. The moral or ethical taboo on violating the trust of others is quite powerful, but indications that such trust does not exist (people watching and checking) largely negates that affect. Interestingly putting up signs which read "please don't steal" have been effective because of this phenomenon.

    4. Re:Sociological Studies Disagree by Vexorian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The article summary includes the following quote, but it doesn't actually seem to be the case if you actually study the issue. In many studies it has been shown that "honor systems" result in fewer thefts than systems where there are technological or potential criminal penalties. In many, many cases building a system of trust and relying upon people's morals and ethics is the most effective solution.

      You know, you are missing the point, that's the reason he said that "you don't need complex economic studies" to reach his conclussion, cause if you did actual studies his conclussion would go unmasked as the non-sense it was.

      --

      Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
    5. Re:Sociological Studies Disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The author had a section about "previewing" of the software. And basically I also believe when you have the full copy for free, working, suddenly the urge to go to the shop somehow vanishes.

      I'll take your bet!!

    6. Re:Sociological Studies Disagree by cliffski · · Score: 1

      This guy did an empirical study;

      http://hackvan.com/pub/stig/articles/why-do-people-register-shareware.html

      We would love to think the honour system works.

      it doesn't.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
  18. Instead of... by Enderandrew · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Instead of debating whether or not piracy should be called piracy, how about we discuss that actual issue of how piracy affects games, and what effect DRM has on piracy.

    Honestly, I think the solution is to provide benefits to paying for the game. You're not going to stop piracy through DRM. And DRM may chase off paying customers. So about instead of pushing people away, you attract customers with benefits?

    For instance, online play that is only accessible to paying customers might convince pirates who downloaded your game to start paying for it.

    --
    http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    1. Re:Instead of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Honestly, I think the solution is to provide benefits to paying for the game. You're not going to stop piracy through DRM. And DRM may chase off paying customers. So about instead of pushing people away, you attract customers with benefits?

      So did you actually read the article or are you naturally that thick? DRM doesn't stop piracy indefinitely, but as long as it works long enough for the initial rush of sales to die down, they fine with that. It's when the DRM is ineffective enough to be cracked zero-day or day-one that they consider a failure, because then piracy takes a measurable chunk out of their sales.

    2. Re:Instead of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's under the assumption that it is an issue.

      It's assumed by many content publishers that it is a big issue (and has been since the beginning), but there is no way to determine that. Look at it this way, we will assume, for the sake of argument, that someone obtains illegal copies of games. Why do they do this?

      1. Not enough money to purchase the game.
      You gain: Word of mouth for good games.
      You lose: Word of mouth for bad games. At worst, you lose one sale. Generally, nothing is lost.

      2. Game is too riddled with DRM and consumers want what they pay for.
      You gain: Nothing.
      You lose: Word of mouth.

      3. You cannot return a game after buying it, so you would like to see what you're getting first.
      You gain: Word of mouth, if it is a good game.
      You lose: Nothing, assuming the user buys it. A sale, assuming the user does not buy it. Word of mouth, assuming it is a bad game.

      4. Game is far too low in quality for its current price point, but some people want to play it now because it's new and fresh. They do not have to want to wait for price drops - if price drops ever occur before it's pulled from the shelves.
      You gain: Nothing.
      You lose: A sale.

      Can't really think of any other common ones at the moment, but that's a fairly solid list.

      If you look at these, you are sadly mistaken to focus on copyright infringement as the issue - or as an issue at all. You may lose a sale here or there, but for every sale you lose, you gain players of your game and thus, word of mouth.

      There is NO POSSIBLE WAY to measure the full effect of copyright infringement, so to assume that it is an issue is fallacious at best. Start concentrating on quality, and then we'll talk about how much money you're losing. Oh wait.

    3. Re:Instead of... by shumakriss · · Score: 1

      It's a decent concept. Not only does it provide incentive to play the game, it can reduce costs of supporting a larger nonpaying group of players online (i.e. fewer servers, faster response time, easier maintenance). However, how do you propose to disallow the nonpaying group? You can't just put copy protection on the cracked versions. The first possibility that comes to mind is using a serial key to gain online access. How do you prevent shared keys or stolen keys? It's not comparable to say a car or house where if you take loans you don't own a product but you can use it. You either pay for it and by right, own it. Or you don't pay for it and by right, should not use it. The question that arises is what's a better way to give benefits to paying customers while accepting that anyone who doesn't feel like they want those features can acquire a free copy "guilt free?"

    4. Re:Instead of... by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

      For instance, online play that is only accessible to paying customers might convince pirates who downloaded your game to start paying for it.

      Ignoring for the moment that not all games make sense to have online, how will you enforce that? All you've said is "you can't beat the pirates ... unless you write a server" which is ridiculous, all that will happen is the pirates will clone the server and play on that. Preventing the cloning of online services is hard - Microsoft and Sony seem to have managed it, but they have fully blown hardware security.

      The primary benefit of paying for the game is meant to be that you .... get to play it!

    5. Re:Instead of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, that was in the article too. The new games will be first on the consoles where they make money with less piracy. After a while, or never, the last of the profits are gathered with a PC port. Games which are available first on PC's will have strong online portion, episodes or constant updates to make the life of a _pirate_ a living hell.

    6. Re:Instead of... by aj50 · · Score: 1

      DRM doesn't stop piracy indefinitely, but as long as it works long enough for the initial rush of sales to die down, they fine with that. It's when the DRM is ineffective enough to be cracked zero-day or day-one that they consider a failure, because then piracy takes a measurable chunk out of their sales.

      I read that bit of the article (and I agree with it) but unfortunately the words of publishers don't stand up to their actions.

      If this is indeed the case, why don't we see more games having their DRM lifted after a few months? (A few games have done this, see UT2004 and Supreme Commander)

      Maybe it's just that after you've paid your money, the publisher no longer has any incentive to provide you with services or maybe they just want to kill off the second games market completely. Either way, it's not helping thier customer relations.

      --
      I wish to remain anomalous
    7. Re:Instead of... by aj50 · · Score: 1

      1. Not enough money to purchase the game. You gain: Word of mouth for good games. You lose: Word of mouth for bad games. At worst, you lose one sale. Generally, nothing is lost.

      WRONG!

      In general, no-one has enough money to buy everything they want but has enough money to buy some of the things they want. Every purchase is a choice between buying the item and buying something else desirable.

      When some items can easily be obtained illegally for free, it becomes more preferable to buy items which can't be obtained for free. I might be torn between buying and game and buying a new graphics card. I'm more likely to spend my money on the graphics card because I know I'll be able to pirate the game.

      --
      I wish to remain anomalous
  19. Piracy is the future, the now by bowlburner · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Try before you buy. Why is it that we have to pay for a game before we play it? Why don't trials or evaluation periods exist for all games like they do for other applications? Don't say short-sighted demos or one-sided reviews do any justice. They don't. The gaming industry has coasted far too long on the "pay first, be disappointed after" system and is in need of an adjustment; this is why piracy is rampant. Why would anyone want to pay for a game not worth the money? Only good game developers that have fulfilled my gaming desires get my money: Blizzard and Valve.

    I'm not blindly buying another Hellgate: London.

    Keep pirating. Buy the games you like. Let the weak game developers wilt and die. This will only cause the market to shift to the games we truly desire or at least a system that doesn't rob you up front and leave you sore after.

    1. Re:Piracy is the future, the now by AlexMax2742 · · Score: 1

      How about not buying games impulsively on day one?

      --
      I'm the guy with the unpopular opinion
    2. Re:Piracy is the future, the now by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1

      Keep pirating. Buy the games you like.

      The problem with this is that far, far too many people will go "keep pirating--buy nothing."

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    3. Re:Piracy is the future, the now by cliffski · · Score: 1

      why do I have to buy my house before I live in it?
      Why do I have to buy my laptop before I get to take it home and play games on it
      Why did I have to pay for my holiday before I got on the plane?

      WTF is wrong with people that they think they have a RIGHT to enjoy other peoples work for free, and then consider if they feel generous enough, they might flip them a few cents later.
      Is that how YOU get paid?

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    4. Re:Piracy is the future, the now by mR.bRiGhTsId3 · · Score: 1

      Someone has to buy it sooner or later for opinions to be formed. If no one buys it until day 2, everyone is still in the same boat.

    5. Re:Piracy is the future, the now by shumakriss · · Score: 1

      my questions, do you always buy the games you like? how do you evaluate your decisions? how often do you consider reviews? how often do you consider whether or not reviews may NOT be biased?

    6. Re:Piracy is the future, the now by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Yes, i agree here...
      I play a small handful of games, and could afford to buy all the ones i play often, but i have pirated a huge number of games... Most of which were complete garbage and got deleted rapidly.
      I did tell myself i would buy the games i actually liked, but the bean counter in me decided later that i'd be paying for something i already had with no gain for me, and didn't bother.

      And yes, demos are lousy and reviews these days are often bought and paid for, and game publishers will punish review sites and magazines who write them bad reviews... But the publishers like it this way, because if they let you actually play the game before you bought it, on average they would lose customers.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    7. Re:Piracy is the future, the now by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      You do go and go look round your house before you buy it right? And you also get a survey by an expert to ensure there's no serious problems you aren't qualified to detect such as subsidence...

      Laptops are easier to quantify, because they are based on a collection of known components... Would you buy a laptop without knowing it's specification up front? Based on the spec, you have a reasonable expectation of how the laptop will perform, and if the laptop doesn't match the published spec you have grounds to return it for a refund.

      As for holidays, to answer your question it's because the cost to get you there has been sunk, whereas providing a time limited demo of a game costs nothing... And people get screwed with bad holidays, have you ever seen a tv show called "holidays from hell" ?

      Also, laptops can always be returned if they don't live up to the advertising, houses can be resold, but games typically cant be returned because you get accused of copying them.

      So in short, you do your due diligence with laptops and houses... With games, i advocate for time limited (but feature complete) demos as bowlburner did because it's practical to do so, simply because a game is not used up by giving someone a copy of it, unlike a holiday which would leave the supplier out of pocket.

      Just had another thought, many people have demanded compensation for lousy holidays, will anyone get compensation if they buy a game and it's not very good?

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    8. Re:Piracy is the future, the now by Damarkus13 · · Score: 1
      Aah, the inappropriate metaphors.

      why do I have to buy my house before I live in it?

      But you certainly get to walk through the house first and (if it's a new house) the contractor is liable for any structural defects for up to 10 years.

      You cannot return opened software. And very few developers release any sort of demo anymore.

      Why do I have to buy my laptop before I get to take it home and play games on it?

      But a laptop is a standardized piece of equipment, and if you don't like it you can return it (up to 90 days later at some stores)

      You cannot return opened software.

      Why did I have to pay for my holiday before I got on the plane?

      If the airline gets you were you are headed and the hotel has a bed for you, then you got what you paid for (it's not the airline's fault if your destination just got wiped off the face of the Earth by a hurricane.) This is probably the most appropriate of your metphors.

      However, if I buy a piece of software and it won't run on my system even though I meet the minimun req's, then I did not get what I paid for. And you cannot return opened software.

    9. Re:Piracy is the future, the now by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 1

      But a laptop is a standardized piece of equipment, and if you don't like it you can return it (up to 90 days later at some stores)

      Only by the good graces of the store. You can certainly return it if it is faulty, but not because you "don't like it", or "changed your mind". Why should the same not be the case for software?

    10. Re:Piracy is the future, the now by shish · · Score: 1

      Try before you buy. Why is it that we have to pay for a game before we play it?

      Because once you have something, the psychological push to then go and pay for it afterwards is an uphill struggle; once you've completed a game and thus have significantly less use for it than you did originally, it gets an order of magnitude harder. Thus, even well-intending people often delay until infinity, or move on to the next game and forget.

      Secondly, because the people who created it say so, and if they want to shoot themselves in the foot by not providing a sufficient demo, then that's their choice, not yours.

      --
      I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
    11. Re:Piracy is the future, the now by nSanosuke · · Score: 1

      I don't know if this is the case everywhere, where I live you can usually rent the game at a Block Busters and see if the game was worth playing. Of course it meant you may not get the game the moment it was released but if you really had such an urge to do so, I'm sure you'd have thought it was worth playing anyway. Although I suppose this is only true of console games and can't be said for PC games ...

    12. Re:Piracy is the future, the now by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 2, Insightful

      why do I have to buy my house before I live in it?

      Houses have inspections, guarantees, and so on. Video games have a no-returns policy.

      Why do I have to buy my laptop before I get to take it home and play games on it

      Defective laptop? Take it back. Defective game? Pick another game on store credit.

      Why did I have to pay for my holiday before I got on the plane?

      Mainly because, unlike a PC game, the odds of the plane landing somewhere completely unexpected are actually pretty low.

      WTF is wrong with people that they think they have a RIGHT to enjoy other peoples work for free, and then consider if they feel generous enough, they might flip them a few cents later.

      You game developers shoveled a bunch of crap on people and now they're cautious about it. Too many paid-for reviews, misleading marketing, necessary patches, ridiculous control schemes, and Daikatanas have made people stop to think. You made the right move by advertising that you're not pulling their crap. Your lack of understanding over people's values and expectations with PC games is disheartening.

      Is that how YOU get paid?

      Yes, actually. I get paid to meet requirements. If I show up to work and do nothing, I don't get paid. If I show up to work, but I do my job, then I get paid for it. That's me fulfilling a requirement. You're selling entertainment. That's the requirement you have to fulfill. It's not really any different except that your situation is more complex. Entertaining the public is harder than my job. That didn't suddenly change, though. You want to get paid, that's fine, I have software on the market, too. I get that. Tossing aside people's concerns, though, that I don't get. I really have trouble believing you weren't a PC gamer before selling your own games.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    13. Re:Piracy is the future, the now by Intrinsic · · Score: 1

      Games that have value dont follow this logic. which was one point another poster was talking about, Copyright Infringement is going to separate the boys from the men when it comes to how innovative games are. If you make a game that works on allot of levels people will by. This is from personal experience. I bought games after I tried them out because they did a good job at making the game replayable with mods and open ended game play.

    14. Re:Piracy is the future, the now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No but you go to the house and look around before you buy it.
      We're not asking it to be free, we're asking for more then a few selective snapshots or a combination of 7 second (or shorter) clips and short paragraphs describing the game. Is that too much to ask for?
      Coincidently I get paid per prenegioated milestone, not periodically.

    15. Re:Piracy is the future, the now by cliffski · · Score: 1

      you get a limited demo.

      When you buy a house, you don't see it in all seasons, at night, in flood conditions, you dont try out inviting friends round, or your pets, or try and get shopping delivered to it, or spend Christmas there, or try and park there in rush hour.

      It's a limited demo. For a three hundred thousand dollar house vs a £20 game.

      face facts, people pirate because they want free stuff and assume they won't get caught, this 'we need to try it more than the demo' stuff is bullshit.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    16. Re:Piracy is the future, the now by AlexMax2742 · · Score: 1

      And that someone has to be you?

      --
      I'm the guy with the unpopular opinion
  20. Free Riders by hhallahh · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Until people understand basic economics, people will simply conceptualize piracy as stealing from "the Man" or whatever rather than recognizing that it both drives producers out of the market and drives up prices for the paying customers who have to be responsible for recouping the development costs. Undoubtedly a lot of anti-piracy measures taken have only made things worse, but that shouldn't obfuscate the fact that piracy is a huge problem. Unfortunately, the impact of piracy on markets is largely invisible to customers, while the benefits (paying $0 vs. paying the shelf price) are anything but. The post-hoc ethical justifications are particularly disgusting... I really loved the ironic discussion of how file-sharing systems used for free-riding pirates have to deal with their own free-riding issues.

    1. Re:Free Riders by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Ofcourse driving up the price serves to increase the obvious cost benefits of piracy...

      On the other hand, if it wasn't profitable companies wouldn't make games, only they are greedy and want to make even more profit at any cost... I doubt prices would go down even if the piracy rate dropped to zero, more likely they would go up because people would have no alternative and companies would gouge.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    2. Re:Free Riders by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought basic economics stated that the price point is set by what the market will bear, not the development costs. So I don't see how piracy can conceivably "drive up prices."

    3. Re:Free Riders by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ethical discussions aside, basic economics apply to things made from physical materials not to ethereal bits and bytes. Producing a game is a fixed cost (X million) + $2 dollars per copy (4% of $50) produced (assuming its not a Steam download which is ~0% cost per unit), once you recoup the fixed cost everything beyond that less 4% is profit.

      In contrast, that is NOTHING like a physical product being produced from real matter where physical materials and labor are big cost components of each unit to which your "basic economics" apply.

      Piracy is invisible to consumers because it little more then an inconvenience to the big players in the market, in fact a little bit of piracy is probably good for keeping the smaller competition in their place/out of the market.

  21. Inside look???? by zoomshorts · · Score: 1

    Steal the game, share the game. Not rocket science.

    Ohhhhhh crack if needed.

  22. Somebody paid me to play by moteyalpha · · Score: 1

    I was contacted by a company the other day and they have a new game called "drone" and they said they would pay me to play it. I could fly a simulated plane in a virtual world and blow stuff up.All I had to do is sign a piece of paper and use their terminals. They said it was as realistic as you could get. I think the game was made by a company called USAF, or something like that. So why use the free version when somebody will pay you to play?
    Some binary bits may have been harmed in the production of this comment.
    As far as the article, a reasonably priced product will be easier to purchase and an expensive one will be more profitable to pirate. I don't think pirates go after ship loads of potatoes as much as diamonds. I personally find that FOSS games are entertaining enough for me and often educational, and I probably learn more playing with the source than the games themselves.

  23. Too much money, not enough game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I bought my first computer in '95. I spent every extra penny I could get on games. I bought them and was happy. I traded my Dune 2 floppies for Civ 1 floppies and then those for something else. It is the trading of games that was big on the minds of anti-piracy corporations. They wanted to stop this. By '97 I was buying two of three new games a month (and so was my roommate). We had well over 100 boxes each.

    1997-1999 were great years for gamers. New companies were breaking new ground; big companies were breaking the sound and graphics barriers. I spent thousands of dollars in just a few years supporting the games I loved so much. I still had fresh memories of my first computer game: Eamon. The new sounds and graphics were getting better all the time and game-play was imporving.

    Then it all changed. Well, not all, just most. Large firms started to pump out games that were nearly identical. Instead of innovating they just polished. They needed to make money faster. I am all for capitalism (I purchased 1 and 2 ... TY Trevor Chan), but they were making games that had less than two weeks playability. These were not $9.99 games; they were $39.99 and $49.99.

    Don't get me wrong there were diamonds in lumps of coal. Small indie dev houses still get my money from time to time. I have purchased EVERY Civ and both Diablos. I have purchased 15 or so MMOs that all were played less than a month. I purchase a lot of games, but I download them first and see if they are worth the $$$ and time. Sadly, most are not. I wish I could find games worth $50.

    I am happy and excited when I buy a new game. I love the new challenges and soon to be stories of multi-player action. Many games are made with the 15 minute gamer in mind. They only want to play for 15 furious minutes and then try again. I want to call in to work for two days while I stay up and save the princess.

    When devs make decent games .. I buy them, but so many games are crap now-a-days I refuse to buy until I try.

  24. Culture does not require fighting piracy... by gweihir · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What is needed for culture to evolve and flourish is hat the creatives make a decent living. That does mean enough people have to be willing to pay. For music, this is clearly the case, if you expect "normal" earnings and stipulate reasonable talent. Same for other areas.

    For business however, piracy is a problem. Cultural business aims at dominating and creating a mainstream, were a relatively low-quality product is sold in high numbers. People realize the low quality level and are often pirating or not interested at all. Ftom the point of view of evolving culture, the business apporach is very harmful. should it fail permanently and go away, at least todays networked world with very low publishing cost can expetc culture to get richer and more interesting.

    Of course the people that get rich on the talent of others will say everything, lie, cheat and steal in order to keep their revenue flowing.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:Culture does not require fighting piracy... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up... Greed is the problem.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  25. So Pirates are bad, mkay, and DRM is good, mkay... by CharonX · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The article is quite biased anti-piracy, pro DRM.
    Instead of taking a balanced close look at the causes of piracy the same old (pro-piracy) arguments are assembled into strawmen and then quickly ripped apart. When the focus turns to DRM there is a lot of handwaving and chanting "if I don't want it to be true it will not be".
    A shame really.

    --
    +++ MELON MELON MELON +++ Out of Cheese Error +++ redo from start +++
  26. Try this: by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 5, Funny

    Tell people: "If **AA can refer to unauthorized copying as piracy, it should be fine if we refer to the filing of SLAPPs as 'rape'"

    --
    My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
    1. Re:Try this: by symbolic · · Score: 1

      It's not just "copying" if you use it and derive benefit from it. At that point it's piracy.

    2. Re:Try this: by ericrost · · Score: 1

      --
      I BOYCOTTED the LOST season premier. Annoy me a little less next time, ABC.

      Methinks your sig is a bit stale, but since you want to advertise, the new premier hasn't happened yet, its returning on January 21st, 2009!

    3. Re:Try this: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention the theft of our time being forced to watch *previews* or those fucking FBI warnings at the beginning of a movie you just paid for, as theft of something you can NEVER GET BACK.... Some part of your life was just stolen from you by the MPAA, and it's worth is incalculable... It could be that at some time in the future, that person, who's 30 seconds of life was stolen by the MPAA could have saved the known Universe from Ice Pirates(tm), if only they hadn't had to sit through the same FBI warning that they'd seen 5000 times before...

    4. Re:Try this: by Wildclaw · · Score: 0, Troll

      Actually, I prefer calling piracy, raping, as in

      "I am proud to rape those RIAA bastards."
      or
      "I raped Britney Spears yesterday" (Only an example. I wouldn't admit listening to BS)

      The only way to fight the modern newspeech facists is to embrace it and use it against them.

  27. Seriously by PotatoHead · · Score: 1

    If they don't want to actually sell the game, then it's a rental or subscription. Ok fine. There should be no buy in cost then. Just pay to play, and call it good.

    Frankly, I would be ok with that model. At least it's honest.

    This whole buy it, but don't own it, and pay to play it too business has just turned me way off. I don't game much, but for consoles where selling off the titles is still viable, as is playing used. Buying new titles right now just isn't all that appealing. They cost too much, and there are a lot of issues.

    Retro gaming is fun. Lots of home brew titles to play, and writing one is doable for the average Joe as well. Much better scene. It's open, no hassles, and if you do pay for stuff, chances are it goes right to the guy that wrote the game, packaged it up and sold the copies! That is actually very cool and important to me. I know somebody somewhere did it for the love of it, put together a nice package, and earned the dollars straight up. No middle men, no hassles, just fun.

    I've bought a few home brew titles this year. Paid from $20 to $50. Got great packaging, lots of fun, sent a note to the author sharing how fun it was, and it was just a good experience.

    Looking at where major league gaming is right now just sucks. I think I'm tuning out for a while.

    Oh, and the home brew keeps a value on par or better than commercial titles. How cool is that?

    IMHO, building up this model and encouraging more authors to write and publish direct to their audience can only be a good thing.

    1. Re:Seriously by TuaAmin13 · · Score: 1

      I find this intriguing. Could you point my browser in a direction such that I could find said home brew titles? I presume there's a sort of gathering place where you can learn more.

  28. Bullshit on Titan's Quest by Kneo24 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm sorry, but Titan's Quest had a lot of problems that were not piracy related. Even those with a legitimate copy had severe issues getting the game to play. Trying to cite that as an example for negative perception underscores the fact that the developers, or maybe even the producers, rushed the game out before it had proper QA testing.

    1. Re:Bullshit on Titan's Quest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good post right up until the last few words. It is not the -testing- that is at issue, it is the -fixing-. QA only accounts for finding problems, which is the easy part. The rest is up to the programmers to actually fix the code, and the executives to decide when the game ships. No matter how good your QA is, if the programmers can't keep pace with fixes, and/or if the producers did not budget or schedule to allow the programmers to do this part of their job, the game will go out the door unpolished.

  29. "Option" of playing for pay or playing for free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who say it's an option? Sometimes, either (a) the player just doesn't have money or (b) the games are no longer available (like a lot of legendary SNES games).

    What is one supposed to do if one cannot afford to buy games? Sit around bored all day? If this player plays a "pirated" game, I would think that nothing is really lost, since the company wouldn't be getting this player's money, anyway.

    Or, what about stuff like Final Fantasy VII? There are still people who would pay for that, so why is it no longer available? Or, for that matter, what about Super Mario RPG, or Chrono Trigger, or any other completely legendary game? If these are no longer available, how are people supposed to play them?

    What is lost by game companies when the transaction cannot be made? Is it still "piracy" or any form of "theft" or "stealing"?

    Sometimes, there is not the "option" to pay for the game. According to the summary, part of the argument against piracy appears to rest on this being an "option". That is just not necessarily the case.

  30. Steam is the best DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Steam is the only DRM that protects both the digital rights of the publisher, and the digital rights that belong to me.

  31. An example of my piracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't pirate games much because most of them aren't worth playing past the demo.

    But a few years ago I pirated a game. It's name was Deus Ex 2. I love (still) DX1 and it gets replayed every 6 months or so (still waiting for the DX:NV and HDTP to be finished.. drooool)

    so DX2 comes out. I'm slavering. Only thing is it isn't supposed to come out for like 2 weeks in the UK. Fuck that I WANT IT NOW! So I download it, intending to buy when released in the UK.

    Only I didn't. The game sucked ass. Only about 11 hours of gameplay and crappy tiny maps that fitted into an XBox, which meant running between areas caused map load after map load which in the inital release caused you monitor to switch resolution twice (as well as the pause).

    i played it and uninstalled it all before it was released in the UK. (actually I completed it in one day). never bought it, was not worth the £40 or so it cost.

    I'm glad in a way I got it pirate before because I didn't loose any money. This is another problem - everything tends to be priced the same whether its a classic or a hum drum wander around shooting things fps (I'm looking at you F.E.A.R)

    One more thing. Steam now has pricing in GBP. only its shitloads more than the USD pricing (even given the VAT that would be added on anyway and most people commenting on this forget that).

    Its just adding up to not buying many more games - also not pirating any either because they tend to be fairly crap. Bioshock? ooh a brightly lit doom 3. wander, trigger, shoot. Left for dead? Pretty but nothing interesting going on. "here they come!". game randomiser my arse. just randomly placing baddies when there are like 300 a level doesn't really make any odds. thank god for demos.

  32. Just my opinion... by Bert64 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I got into piracy because as a child i wasn't terribly well off...

    If i saved my weekly allowance, it would take me several months to be able to afford a legit game, and i may be able to get one or two at xmas or a birthday.
    I started off buying games, quite a few in fact, and i found that a lot didn't live up to the hype, the demos/reviews were often very different from the actual game, like a demo that would include the first level which was quite good, and then the remaining levels were extremely poor and you couldn't save your progress, so you would do the first level, get to the second, die, and have to start again from scratch (the lion king is an example of a game like this)...

    So for my stack of 15 or so games, i had 2-3 which were good and got played a lot, and was finding that the newer games performed poorly because my hardware was now out of date... I still had all the advertising hype and peer pressure pushing me to want the new games, but not only could i not afford them but i now couldn't run them adequately either.

    So i started pirating games, and spending what little money i had on hardware upgrades. I was better off, i no longer had to be bombarded with commercials for games i couldn't afford to play, which is a very unpleasant feeling for a kid.

    I think all the heavy advertising is extremely unpleasant for the poorer kids who cant afford all the latest stuff (not just games, but most things you cant get for free so easily), games are overpriced especially seeing they mostly target kids...

    While on the subject, people are always complaining about the level of crime among teenagers and younger kids these days, but is it any wonder why?
    When i was that age, the average kid would be walking around with maybe $5 worth of stuff not including clothes, hardly a worthwhile target for robbery... Now, kids have ipods, cellphones and all kinds of other valuables for thieves to target.

    --
    http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  33. Article is Rife With Inconsistencies and... by Kneo24 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Outright lies. After being half way through the second page wall o' text, I did some skimming and found certain things to just not ring true. Quoting 2D boy's erroneous numbers, further more quoting the old erroneous old figure over the newer, lower erroneous old figure? Equating DRM to a door lock? Saying that STEAM doesn't work in offline mode? Citing Titan's Quest when that game didn't work right even if you had the retail version? Figures where there's a lot of "unknowns"?

    Sure, copyright infringement, which is what I prefer to call it instead of some term to denigrate people, is indeed a problem. But you know what? There's fuck all you can do about it. You can try to slow down the crackers, but when they get the game two weeks before release, you've already failed. When you purposely put in measures which makes the game crash to piss off pirates, you've also failed. When the game doesn't work at retail, guess what? You've failed again!

    I suggest to Slashdotters, who typically don't RTFA, to not read it. It's not worth the time or effort.

  34. You show your ignorance. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1, Interesting

    First, piracy is NOT "stealing", either ethically or legally. If you think it is, you do not know your history, in particular your legal history. Copyright infringement is quite distinct, legally, from theft, and there are LOTS of good reasons for that.

    Second, for the most part, pirates are NOT "taking food from someone else's mouth". There may be exceptions, but in general the gaming industry is making more money now than ever before. There is good reason to argue, in fact, that piracy probably increases sales.

    I could go on but I won't bother. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.

    1. Re:You show your ignorance. by ucblockhead · · Score: 1

      It may not be "stealing", but it is still unethical. It is wanting to get the results of someone else's labor for free.

      --
      The cake is a pie
    2. Re:You show your ignorance. by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Please do go on. I'd like to hear the rest of you argument, because I hear it a lot on slashdot, but it is never explained. How does NOT buying a copy of Half Life 2 cause more sales of Half Life 2?

    3. Re:You show your ignorance. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      I do not disagree, but that was not the subject of my reply.

      Further, I must point out that it is not always unethical. I was once in a situation in which our company HAD to pirate software in order to get the functionality for which we had already paid a great deal of money! The DRM on the software had failed, and the suppliers of the software were completely uncooperative in getting their expensive software to work properly. As a result, we got cracked or bootleg versions of the software when we could. After all, we had already paid for them but the "legitimate" versions did not work.

      DRM made us pirates, not the other way around.

    4. Re:You show your ignorance. by zarthrag · · Score: 1

      The desire to play online with friends? There are many who won't buy anything unless forced. Which is why there are fewer singleplayer games, and why adventure/rpgs are rarer still. Soon everything will be online-multiplayer-only, with a one-time "free code" to download your "exclusive content".

      --
      Why can't all fpga/microcontroller manufacturers just release free optimizing compilers???
    5. Re:You show your ignorance. by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      So you think somebody who is playing a pirated copy of a game is going to show it to his friends, but insist they all go out and buy it instead of just giving them a copy?

    6. Re:You show your ignorance. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Here is one example, but this is by no means the only way it works, and it may not even be the best example:

      You are a teenager who has very little "disposable" income (or cash at all). You drool over the new Half Life 2, because you have seen your friends play the original Half Life, and it looks like lots of fun. You would love to have a copy to play on your Dad's computer. But you do not have anywhere near the $45 or whatever it takes to buy the game, even though you have a part-time job. You work hard to be a good student at school too and you have to spend most of your money on clothes and other necessities...

      Your friend tells you about, or you happen into run online, a source where you can actually download the game without paying for it! Do you do so? Well, let's say you do, even though you feel guilty about it. You might tell yourself (correctly) that you could not afford to buy the game anyway, so the game company is not actually losing any money. (More on that in a bit.)

      So you install the game. And it's great! It's the best game you have ever played. So of course you tell all your friends about it. But, feeling guilty, you don't mention how you got your hands on it...

      Those who hear all these rave reviews are a lot more likely to go out and buy the game then if they only saw the commercials! After all, they have been burned by commercials for interesting-looking products that turned out to be crap. Word of mouth is the BEST form of advertising. It is 'viral' in the sense often used on the Net.

      So because of that pirate, indirectly or through other friends, the company makes, say, 3 sales that it would not have, if he hadn't pirated the product, tried it out, and spread the word.

      Note here that even if 10 of his friends also pirate the software, as long as they too could not afford it (or would have not bought for other reasons), then the company still has a net gain of 3 sales. It has not "lost" anything.

      It all hinges on whether the software provider loses more sales because of pirates who could purchase the product but did not, versus the amount it gains from the free advertising it gets from those who pirated the software but would not have purchased anyway.

      At least one University study concluded that (in the U.S.) about 80% of piracy occurs when there would not have been a sale anyway, for one reason or other. So about 80% of piracy does not result in even theoretical "losses" for the software company.

    7. Re:You show your ignorance. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Maybe they will, maybe they won't. But remember that we are not just talking about kids here, but adults too. In fact adults are probably the backbone of the gaming market.

      As an adult, are you going to go around telling all your friends that you pirated your software?

    8. Re:You show your ignorance. by tuxgeek · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      You're a low-life scumbag. Do you cheat on your taxes? I must assume so. You, "Jane Q. Public" probably cheat on your spouse or significant other. People like you disgust me. No wonder the world has turned into such a shit hole with a plethora of assholes like you and few people with real morals anymore, understanding the difference between right from wrong.

      --
      "Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
    9. Re:You show your ignorance. by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It may not be "stealing", but it is still unethical. It is wanting to get the results of someone else's labor for free.

      People who use gpl'd software are unethical? People who borrow a library book are unethical? Kids who believe in Santa Clause are unethical? All charities are unethical? Taxes are unethical? GMail, Yahoo Mail, MSN-Whatever-they-call-it-this-week are unethical? People who watch TV or listen to the radio are unethical? Visitors who use city parks or streets are unethical? Free public clinics for the poor are unethical?

      Methinks you've got a very strange idea of "unethical."

    10. Re:You show your ignorance. by ucblockhead · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You completely miss the point. There is a vast difference between someone letting you use their work for free of their own free will and taking their work against their will.

      --
      The cake is a pie
    11. Re:You show your ignorance. by ucblockhead · · Score: 1

      Oh, I agree. I downloaded a Diablo II crack, for instance, because their damn copy protection refused to let me play the game I'd purchased! But overriding someone's stupidity after having paid is vastly different from thinking you have the right to just take their stuff without paying.

      --
      The cake is a pie
    12. Re:You show your ignorance. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Yes, as far as that goes we are on the same channel.

    13. Re:You show your ignorance. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The English-language definition of stealing is "take without owner's consent". Seems like stealing to me.
      The legal definition of stealing is "taking money or property belonging to someone else with the intent of depriving the owner of its use or benefit". Piracy takes away the owner's right of distribution, and takes away the value of a product by illegally making infinite copies of it - kind of like counterfeiting money devalues the economy for everybody else.

      I don't see how you couldn't possibly see that as stealing. Unless of course you have some vested interest in morally justifying an illegal act?

    14. Re:You show your ignorance. by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      As an adult, I have income and thus no need to pirate software.

    15. Re:You show your ignorance. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Easy for you to say, unless you are buying a copy of AutoCad or Mathematica or 3Ds Max or the Photoshop Suite.

      Even if you are a student (but still an adult), and you need to learn to use this software, they don't usually give you much of a break on the exhorbitant costs.

      In fact, when I was a student, Macromedia gave me a "student penalty" price on their software suite. It looked like a student discount... until one went to actually install the software, at which time (for the first time), it informed you that you may not use it for commercial purposes. So, if one wanted to learn the software at school, then use it for a career later, one would have to go buy the full commercial version anyway!

      A student would be better off just paying for the commercial version (which was quite expensive), rather than paying an additional several hundred dollars for the "student version". It was in fact a student penalty. It might not be if students actually knew that the version they were buying had a limited licence... but that information was nowhere to be found on the package.

      There are other software products that do effectively the same thing.

      Another example, also as a student: I had signed up for a class in Web Graphics. I was not informed until the first day of class that I was expected to have my own copy of Photoshop 7. Well, Photoshop 7 cost $700 at the time, and there was no student discount of which I was aware. But there was no way I could afford the $700, and if I dropped the class, I would not get my tuition back, which amounted to almost the same amount (not to mention that it was too late to sign up for another class by then... so I would have been in school another quarter just to make up those credits!) Here is not just an ethical but a practical dilemma: what should I do? Waste a vast amount of my own time and money because somebody slipped up in the course catalog? Try to charge the school for their error (yeah, right)? Or get a bootleg copy of Photoshop 7? There may be other possibilities. You decide.

      Without mentioning what I actually did at the time, I should mention that out of school I do not use Photoshop at all. It is very expensive, the interface sucks, and there are other graphics packages out there that are vastly less expensive but do essentially the same job.

  35. Bullshit by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I call bullshit on this article, from a number of different angles!

    One of the biggest reasons is lack of logical coherence. The author cites lots of numbers, but then does not actually put them together in an objective way to actually support his conclusions. In fact, his conclusions appear to be foregone. He seems to have ignored a good body of evidence that would lead to different conclusions.

    For one example, he cites an article about game piracy on Macs. The article mentions the "pirate's argument" that it is okay to pirate because that person would not have bought the product anyway, therefore there is no lost sale. However, the article only discusses this topic from the point of view of whether it makes a valid moral or ethical argument.

    The cited article (and main article too) ignore that several university studies have in fact shown that somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of piracy occurs when there would not have been a sale anyway. (In most cases because there was insufficient money to purchase the product, but there are several other reasons this occurs.) That may not be a sound ethical argument in favor of piracy, but that is irrelevant. More to the point: it is an economic reality. Economic realities are; they exist. Simply putting them down as unethical is to ignore the actual causes, and possible solutions, for the situation. Further, trying to prosecute -- and especially fine -- people for not buying a product they probably could not afford to buy anyway is completely counterproductive. It offers no societal solutions to the actual problem; it simply fosters fear and antagonism. And backlash, as the RIAA and MPAA are finding out, probably too late to do them much good. They were warned by the society of their customers, but they did not listen.

    In another example of faulty logic, the author indulges in the classic logical Post Hoc fallacy argument to conclude that piracy causes DRM, not the other way around. (For those not familiar, this is the argument that because one thing happened after another, the earlier event must have caused the later event. This does not follow: in fact it is just as likely that some third event caused them both.) In particular, he states that a game that was released with no DRM resulted in lots of downloads, then claims that "The evidence is overwhelmingly clear: DRM does not cause piracy, piracy results in DRM." When in fact his "evidence" shows nothing of the sort.

    As a systems manager and tech (and now Software Engineer) with many years experience, I can testify that there are a great many cases where, in fact, DRM causes piracy. One example is when I worked for an engineering company, which used quite a few proprietary programs for certain involved, specialized calculations. Many of those programs came with various forms of DRM. And I can tell you this in complete honesty: every one of the programs that used DRM failed on us. Almost always at an important point in the project. And I mean that literally: every single one of them failed, without exception. And in every case, the cause of the failure was the DRM. Further, our calls to support for the software were almost always unproductive: "You must not have installed it properly." or "You must have been tampering with the copy protection". Nonsense. We had paid a lot of good money for the software and were not about to treat it so casually.

    In such cases, we were forced to either try to break the DRM ourselves, or to try to find a cracked version of the software, just to get the functionality we had already paid for! Which technically made us pirates. But it was DRM that forced us into piracy, not the other way around. Keep in mind that this was specialty software for which there was often no alternative product available. But just FYI, the invariable DRM failures did cause us to look for alternative products. Our official company policy became (this is true): "If there are alternative products available,

    1. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The articles author makes a very valid point, if piracy is killing the PC platform, for certain game genres, then the content developers will move elsewhere and the PC will be a poorer platform for it.

      I know this to be true, I'm one of the said content developers, and like many others we no longer consider the PC to be a viable platform and moved to console 2 years ago.

    2. Re:Bullshit by sesshomaru · · Score: 1

      Here's a good phrase, "Morality is Marketing."

      Corporations tend not to care about morality. Many of the companies that complain the loudest about immorality, have done evil things themselves in the past. Electronic Arts is a good example, as is Sony.

      Now, I'm pretty sure that Microsoft has never done anything morally wrong, ever, but I could be wrong about that. I'm open to the possiblity. (Incidentally, I hope people's sarcasm detectors are working.)

      Does that morally excuse Software Piracy? (Shrug) It's kind of irrelevant to me whether it does or not, I just know I consider it laughable when almost any corporation appeals to "morality."

      So, corporation use morality as just another tool in their marketing toolkit. I'm sure 20th Century Fox complains about morality when someone "pirates" Jingle All the Way without any trace of shame. (From the article about them "pirating" the script for that movie, "They obviously thought nobody would have the clout to fight.")

      DRM is a business strategy, anti-"piracy" lobbying is another, and commercials on DVDs saying "you wouldn't steal a car" or the hoary old, "don't copy that floppy" are another.

      Now, here's the thing a fine argument against piracy is that if companies can't make money in the business of selling copies, they might change to a business model that we won't like, cut back on product or something else. Sometimes these are uttered in the same breath as appeals to morality, as if to conflate them as being the same thing. However, what they really are are appeals to self interest or at best to community interest.

      Heck, recently corporations have started to use moralistic sounding language to attack used product. (The difference in the price of new and used product just proves that most things they are selling are at ridiculously inflated prices. As indeed does the prevalence of piracy.)

      None of the above should be considered an endorsement of piracy. I don't pirate games myself, but it's not because of morality.

      --
      "MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
    3. Re:Bullshit by doug141 · · Score: 1

      The article mentions the "pirate's argument" that it is okay to pirate because that person would not have bought the product anyway, therefore there is no lost sale.

      A lot of people think this. They fail to see that when you "can't" afford the $100 word processor you WANT, and you pirate it, you just took a sale from the cheaper $20 word processor you otherwise would have NEEDED to buy.

    4. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a third example, on page 9 the author gives a decidedly (and pretty blatantly) one-sided presentation of StarForce, SecureROM, and Steam.

      Notice how he mentions the "prize" offered by Starforce to anyone that can demonstrate it damaging a PC and cheerfully reports that nobody claimed it? Well, he also took care not to mention that the "prize" was only $1,000 and could be claimed only after giving this demonstration in Russia. What's the cost of a round-trip ticket to Moscow?

      You're right. That entire article works from the premise that "DRM prevents piracy and that's why people hate it and any arguments to the contrary are rubbish". The author is either an industry shill or just extremely ignorant. Or both.

  36. You can't have it both ways with human nature by Geof · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Piracy is the result of human nature: when faced with the option of getting something for free or paying for it, and in the absence of any significant risks, you don't need complex economic studies to show you that most people will opt for the free route.

    When we talk about piracy, we say the desire to get less for more is a moral failing that must be fought and punished. When we talk about the market, this same desire is used as a justification: there's no point fighting human nature. So we have piracy, a practice driven by greed, coming up against a system, the market, also driven by greed. How do we know which greed is good and which one is bad? If this fellow really thinks piracy is human nature, then he should stop trying to fight what can't be changed and instead find a system that works with it. But that rules out moral indignation, and it can be more satisfying to pronounce on good and evil than to seek workable solutions.

    Now I don't think satisfying one's greed is admirable, and I'm skeptical of claims for some immutable human nature. Adam Smith argued not for outright greed, but for enlightened self-interest. Too often in this debate, all the enlightenment is expected to be on one side, while all the self-interest is on the other.

    1. Re:You can't have it both ways with human nature by aj50 · · Score: 1

      Without looking too closely at the question of right or wrong, the result of these competing sides of greed is clear.

      With traditional PC games making less money, game developers and publishers are going to move their focus into areas where the return on investment is better: console games and cheap to make casual games.

      Whether right or wrong, the greed of pirates is making the pc gaming market less attractive to publishers.

      --
      I wish to remain anomalous
    2. Re:You can't have it both ways with human nature by Geof · · Score: 1

      the greed of pirates is making the pc gaming market less attractive to publishers

      You make a good point, and I appreciate you not flaming :) Though I can quibble a little bit (sharing can increase visibility and sales, wider distribution is a good thing in and of itself), I think you're right.

      If I still played games (I'd like to, but need to focus on other things) I would rather do it on PC, and I have no desire to pirate them. On the other hand, I'm not convinced this outcome is terribly significant (i.e. important or morally relevant) one way or the other.

      My comment is intended to refer to the wider copyright debate. What I care about, and what I would like to see more of, is increased active engagement by ordinary people. That means creativity based (like all creativity) on existing works, mashups, and so on. For video games, this means going beyond simply playing the games as written to create new works and experiences (e.g. machinima, unexpected social uses). As software, many transformations require open source, which is outside this question of piracy vs DRM. Machinima can require better licenses, which again doesn't seem heavily influenced by this, although I presume harsh DRM can prevent it from being made. To that extent, both piracy and anti-piracy measures can get in the way of valuable creativity and other activities.

      Piracy driven by greed does us no favors. It diminishes the incomes of artists, brings the law into disrepute, and hands ammunitions to copyright extremists. It takes two: someone has to craft extreme and unenforceable laws, and someone has to break them. Piracy and the copyright maximalists can be an unholy combination. Each justifies the existence of the other. I hold both sides responsible for letting their greed damage things far more important than saving or making a few bucks. Then we end up censoring valuable creative and social activities which are the basic justification for caring so much about culture in the first place. When copyright blocks those activities, infringement may be the only way to do them.

      Oh, look. I criticized moralizing by others, and now... *sigh* As frustrating as it is, blaming just isn't going to help. We need to figure out what we value, and we're going to have to find an effective way to maximize that (while taking into account any negative side-effects). A law that regulates our everyday communication in such complex and detailed ways cannot be made effective through enforcement alone. On the other hand, most artists must obey the law even if it stops them from engaging in valuable creativity. Without a practical system and social consensus involving everyone to back it up (regardless of the ethics of their activities), we all lose.

  37. Piracy happens because software isn't containable by erroneus · · Score: 1

    Unlike hardware and mechanical devices, software isn't something that can be contained or locked away. Because it must be read into memory before accessing, there is no technical means by which it can be locked away. Furthermore, once software has been developed, there is no limit to the number of copies that can be made for distribution. This is just as true for the developers of software as it is for those who wish to share or even profit from the unlicensed distribution of said software. Further, the cost of duplication is almost negligible as well. All of these factors make software unworthy of being thought of as "a product."

    Compare these properties with other things and you will see what the big difference between software and other things for sale really is. And for all of the same reasons why software is unsuitable, music and video are also less suitable.

    But the media pushers know this as well as I do. So they attack the problem by trying to change reality. They push for laws to support their business model. They push for equipment manufacturing standards to support their business model. They even damage the media they transmit their data on in order to make its access less available in order to protect their business model. A good business model does not need a great deal of protection if it is good.

    Software, music, video and images are not worthy of being packaged because they cannot be easily contained. Copyright was a fair arrangement in the beginning, but it is no longer fair and so it needs to be restored to fairness. And until that happens, this sort of consumer backlash will continue only because it is a part of the human marketplace... not because we are bad people, but because we are people.

    It is time for some serious reform.

  38. the solution by deepthoughtless · · Score: 0

    DRM is what was made to combat pirating. The solution: STOP PIRATING. And that oh-so-awful DRM will disappear. Publishers like EA wouldn't feel like they needed it if there weren't a problem to begin with. This whole arguement is as rediculous as being upset when a store decides to put an anti-theft tag on a shirt. If you don't play games all that often, then you probably don't mind waiting a few years for the price to drop to $10 or $20. If you just think that $50 is too much to spend on a game, then tough. Look at your expenses and find a way to make it happen, or find another hobby. But if you can afford to maintain a computer that can run the latest $50 games, then some disposable income, in the amount of hundreds, is clearly available to you. The real issue is the disassociation with what one is actually doing when pirating. It's stealing, plain and simple. The only difference is that instead of pocketing the toy and leaving the store, running the risk of being caught, you click the button and it's done. Stop cheating and they won't have to assume that everyone is cheating.

    1. Re:the solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But if you download games, you don't care about the DRM anyway

  39. Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    Software is no different from a piece of music: both are written works that achieve a desired (pleasant, we hope) effect.

    Do you not think artists should get paid?

    The fact is that allowing original works (stories, music, paintings, photography, software, sculpture, inventions, etc.) to fall directly into the public hands, without reward to the creator, DISCOURAGES the creation of said original works. And as a result, people do not create them. We know this, because it is a fact that history has demonstrated over and over again.

    That is the REASON that copyrights were implemented in the first place! To ENCOURAGE innovation and the arts, by allowing the creators (for a limited time) to profit from their works. When this period is truly limited (like the original 15 or 17 years), this also benefits the public -- which was the whole intent -- because then the art or invention gets into public hands and benefits everybody.

    Unfortunately, greedy people got the period for copyrights extended to 50 and even more years, which is NOT in the interest of the public good. And in such cases, people lose respect for the law and just pirate the goods anyway. (That is an oversimplification but that *is* one reason.)

    Just because such original works are in a different physical category than other works, that does not make them "not worthy"! A reasonable copyright system benefits the public a great deal, not just the creators of the works.

    Unfortunately, our copyright laws have ceased to be reasonable. Blame the corporations, because they are the ones directly responsible for this. But do not blame the works themselves, or their nature. That is false logic.

  40. Stupidity. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After reading all of these comments it makes me wonder if any of you actually READ the entire article.

  41. Farcical by bitspotter · · Score: 1

    So because it was "human nature" that slaves would just naturally not want to be slaves, you think you can denigrate the struggle for abolition as "a farce?".

    Nice logic, asshole. Having something to gain does not somehow magically de-legitimize struggles for justice.

  42. Reading the Fucking Article by markass530 · · Score: 1

    I know I'm one of the few that actually did, and trust me 95% of the time I don't but for anyone else who did, Anyone else think it's to much of an indictment against pirates and not enough against DRM?

    1. Re:Reading the Fucking Article by Fourpole · · Score: 1

      I read the whole thing, and I thought it was a fair analysis. It did a pretty decent job of addressing some of the more dubious claims of the pro-piracy people without calling them all crooks. Honestly, I'm not sure what kind of indictment against DRM you can make. Maybe some of it goes too far, but it is all in response to the ever more sophisticated methods of running illegal copies of software. I'm very skeptical of the idea that removing or reducing the amout of DRM will do anything to decrease piracy. Barring a fundamental shift in human behavior there is no way we can ever go back to the 'good old days' of 5.25" floppies with no copy protections.

  43. Crapware+DRM+utterly useless fancy numbers by KingofGnG · · Score: 1

    The best piece of crapware I will (never) read. Ever.

  44. No Less Ethical by macraig · · Score: 1

    Piracy is no less ethical than the very deliberate efforts of corporate executives and other "entrepreneurs" to manipulate, mis-educate, misinform, and generally disadvantage large groups of people to disproportionately benefit themselves. The only reason that the one activity (piracy) is illegal and the others aren't is because it's yet another successful example of that manipulation. The "victors" not only write the histories, they also write the laws, not only including laws that benefit them but also excluding laws that would lessen their advantages over others.

    It is this dynamic that drives some people to consider variations of socialism as an altruistic solution (never mind that socialism can't work as long as such people exist at all). In pure Darwinian terms, though, none of those activities would be unethical; any old trickery is fine if it gets the job done. That's "competition" in its purest form. "Cooperation", however, demands an artificial ethical framework not found in nature; Capitalists, Libertarians, and Socialists disagree on how much cooperation to legislate into a system of ethics, and so we have much infighting and a mish-mash of laws that winds up benefitting the very wealthy just a bit more than it does the rest of us.

    1. Re:No Less Ethical by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      Note though, that recent studies are leading to the conclusion that our capacity for empathy is what has advanced us so far over purely competitive species.

      Indeed, these studies state that very few species are actually capable of empathy, and among those even fewer have dedicated neural structure for it. Humans are among this latter group.

      I find this ironic given all these people claiming that "competition" and pseudo-anarchy will produce more advancement than regulations which help compel cooperation, especially given the glaring example of what a "pure, government free market" does in the form of somalia.

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    2. Re:No Less Ethical by macraig · · Score: 1

      Indeed. As I wrote elsewhere yesterday (and should have included here perhaps), this eternal schizophrenic struggle between competition and cooperation is both internal as well as external. It might produce more cognitive dissonance than any other single thing. Look at how much of our legal framework is devoted to it! I'm no exception to the internal struggle; even though the war was won in favor of cooperation long ago, occasional skirmishes still erupt now and then.

  45. The tag line by westlake · · Score: 1
    "stopcallingitpiracy"

    They will stop calling it piracy when the gamer geek is willing to settle for less than the production values of a $150 million dollar theatrical feature and the game play of Grand Theft Auto.

    1. Re:The tag line by Obyron · · Score: 1

      I paid for GTA4 and it did not disappoint. It paid for Fallout 3 and it is still not disappointing. I did not pay for Spore, and it disappointed heavily. I saved 60 dollars that I would have wasted. People will pay for good games, which is why good games shatter sales records.

      --
      --Obyron
  46. Art by sykopomp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Art is a labor of love. Love does not require profit, and an entire industry that puts its entire weight behind commercial success and greed can only do harm to one of the arts that I love.

    May they crash and burn. I really do mean that. I'd rather have ad-hoc groups of 5 or so people who really love the labor they put their time into.

    The entire games industry was born out of this love, this passion. It's disappeared from big companies. People who once sat in their rooms hacking assembly on ancient machines, out of passion, are now being exploited into grinding their lives away on a schedule, their creativity mostly ignored in favor of a few elite designers' "market-proven talent".

    Bring back the love. Bring back the passion.

  47. Re:Your conclusion does not follow from your premi by erroneus · · Score: 1

    You really should have finished reading what I wrote before you commented. You would have found that we are in nearly complete agreement. I stated that the original copyright agreement was reasonable at first. It stopped being reasonable and that is where the real trouble begins. Ultimately, the virtually unlimited copyright law as it exists today not only allows copyright holders to control access, but limit access and even remove access to the works in question. Disney would seek to lock up any of their works indefinitely forever removing the copright holder's side of the bargain. And even now countless works have been lost forever due to these practices. The "giving back to the public" stopped happening and when that happened, all other agreements are off as far as I am concerned.

    Yes, artists deserve their pay -- they rarely get it. Programmers are artists too... and they DON'T get a cut of the copyright do they? Not usually. So the real question to ask is whether or not the people COLLECTING the money and keeping it deserve their pay? I say no. They don't. Not after their reasonable time has expired. And in software terms, "reasonable" is a lot less than 10 years... possibly less than 7... but at least 5 years.

  48. Exactly wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Moral values are the ones that _don't_ go out the window when you think you won't get caught.

  49. Re:Your conclusion does not follow from your premi by loonycyborg · · Score: 1

    Do you not think artists should get paid?

    Yes.

    The fact is that allowing original works (stories, music, paintings, photography, software, sculpture, inventions, etc.) to fall directly into the public hands, without reward to the creator, DISCOURAGES the creation of said original works.

    Disagree. People create works of art not to get paid but for sheer fun of it. Paying them for it would help them focus on it though.

    IMO even government support will be better that current perverse copyright-based system. Restricting access to such immaterial and easily duplicable things is silly.

  50. You show your arrogance. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Why do people always drag in these asinine "but, technically, it isn't stealing! Here's what stealing is, and I'll be quoting from Webster's 4th revision of the 1986 dictionary" arguments? Redefining the terms does not change what the activity is: obtaining something in a way that is against the wishes of the people creating it, and violating their contract of sale. Don't hide behind a veil of semantics to try to justify this. The item that you are pirating has some sort of price that has been set on the market. What you think it should be is entirely irrelevant: you are not paying that price because you want it for free. The creators of the work are not receiving the compensation that they asked for.

    I have but one question for the pirates: how does this not make you an asshole? Can you see past your own self-entitlement complex and realize that your actions have an effect on other people? That the world isn't something you exploit to get ahead?

    Also, as for your gaming industry comment, well, I'll quote a few people:

    "It's crazy how the ratio between sales to piracy is probably 1 to 15 to 1 to 20 right now." - Cevat Yerli (source)

    "Piracy has pushed id as being multiplatform" stated Hollenshead [id's CEO] (source)

    Comments made by Epic's Capps carried a similar tone. "PC gaming is really falling apart," he revealed. "It killed us to make Unreal Tournament 3 cross-platform, but Epic had to do it," adding "the market that would buy a $600 video card knows how Bittorrent works." (source)

    Really, the most hilarious thing is that I know there is some subset of people out there who see their own piracy as acceptable, yet are infuriated by GPL violations.

    1. Re:You show your arrogance. by 3vi1 · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Piracy has pushed id as being multiplatform" stated Hollenshead [id's CEO] (source)

      Oh Noze! A company that grossed over ONE MILLION DOLLARS PER EMPLOYEE PER YEAR for many years in the 90's quit innovating had to start selling to a wider audience to maintain their profit ratio.

      Their fucking kids must make Ethiopians look soooo fat.

      (note: I always bought their stuff because I respect the hell out of Carmack. But, your argument sucks.)

    2. Re:You show your arrogance. by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      obtaining something in a way that is against the wishes of the people creating it, and violating their contract of sale

      I guess that makes second hand sales stealing. Actually, I have heard that being argued so it isn't a long stretch at all.

      The item that you are pirating has some sort of price that has been set on the market.

      No, it has a prices based on monopoly distribution of a pretty non fungible goods.

      The creators of the work are not receiving the compensation that they asked for.

      True. Although, unless every pirate pirates 100% of what he uses they are getting some percentage of the compensation.

      I have but one question for the pirates: how does this not make you an asshole? Can you see past your own self-entitlement complex and realize that your actions have an effect on other people? That the world isn't something you exploit to get ahead?

      Not every pirate spends nothing on media. In fact, looking at (non-mafiaa biased) statistics, you'll find that the largest media buyers also tend to be frequent pirates.

      I have yet to explain the PC game market though which tends to be an anomaly with a high piracy rate. Not sure why actually. It may be because gamers use multiple platforms and with their limited budget they choose to spend more on the hard to copy console games while pirating the easier to copy PC games. (Actually sounds like a valid theory, but would need real statistical polling to verify it a connection between owning consoles and copying PC games)

      Really, the most hilarious thing is that I know there is some subset of people out there who see their own piracy as acceptable, yet are infuriated by GPL violations.

      This is usually a matter of business vs private usage. You'll find that a lot of pirates thrown upon commercial piracy. Also, the same attitude holds for businesses that pirate software.

  51. Re:Bullshit^2 by MaulerOfEmotards · · Score: 5, Informative

    Agree with the above poster. The article is a classic example of tendentious writing. It wouldn't stand even the most basic requirements for an entry level university essay.

    It is written arrogantly and from an pro-industry perspective. Point by point, it consistently takes sides but continuously claims it is not doing so. There is no underlying theory or methodology other than "examine every aspect of game piracy". :rolleyes:

    1) The article starts with the author claiming neutrality and utter non-bias
    2) The article seems to have been laid out beforehand, written as intended and fleshed out with quotes and references where found as supporting his theses
    3) Sources are quotes selectively to further his preconceived conclusions
    4) Alternative interpretations are ignored or dismissed
    5) There is no source criticism
    6) Frequent hand waving and usage of weasel words 7) Interjected unsubstantiated strong conclusions, as "The evidence is overwhelmingly clear: DRM does not cause piracy, piracy results in DRM."

    Also, you gotta love an author who writes a long article, POS as it is, proves a "printable" link, which takes you to a page which says "if you want to print it, print each page, schmuck".

  52. Consoles v PC by RedWizzard · · Score: 1

    That article claims that consoles are seeing higher sales primarily because of lower piracy. That should mean that the difference is reduced or eliminated for games that can't effectively be pirated - the ones with peripherals like Guitar Hero. So did the PC release of any of the Guitar Hero games do better that expected relative to other games? If not (and I'm pretty sure it did not) then it indicates that other factors are at least as important.

  53. I am tagging this flamebait! by Vexorian · · Score: 1
    Really, post this on slashdot? meh. Flamebait...
    Securom

    Although annoying, and certainly not something users should be happy about, these issues are not particularly sinister and in general are easily rectified

    Starforce

    nterestingly enough, there's very little in the way of actual evidence that StarForce does anything harmful.

    WGA

    Consider one last example of a protection method which has been subject to similar levels of hysteria and misinformation, and which every legitimate Windows user has installed on their system right now: Windows Product Activation.

    The wtf part

    piracy has forced increasingly intrusive DRM upon us.

    wtf?

    There is no solution to the issue of protecting intellectual property (IP) that will satisfy all parties. There are customers who will accept nothing less than publishers acquiescing to a quasi-honor system for purchasing software [i.e. removal of all protection]. That doesnâ(TM)t work.

    Hell yeah it does. Ok, so you are trying to say this won't satisfy all parties... The only party I can so far think that would not be satisfied is a bunch of corporate leeches that actually think DRM is fine and costumers must give up all their rights, well, how about we just throw them to hell or something like that?

    Ad Logicam strikes back

    There's one particular tactic which people commonly use in the piracy debate that absolutely must stop. This tactic involves the sarcastic use of the claim 'PC gaming is dead', and is based on a technique known as the Straw man Argument:

    The Cherry on top

    Back in the 1980s when my friends and I swapped copies of Amiga games, we didn't blame the copy protection for forcing us to do it

    • Perhaps the reason nobody pirated games because of copy protection is that such a stupid thing like DRM that makes the original product of lower quality than the pirated one, did not exist ...
    • So, you pirated games back then? But it is just now when the industry is suffering so much about "piracy" and developers might "quit" because of the "risk" that involves making games...

    Of course, copyright infringement is 'bad'... However, it does not justify DRM, no it doesn't. DRM is neither necessary to "protect" investments nor effective against piracy. The WGA part was later laughable "This proves DRM works because Microsoft keeps using WGA" Let's forget about the fact MS has been attempting to make WGA stronger and more annoyingly in every release, people do get annoyed from it, many people I know in this country moved from MSN messenger to pidgin thanks to MS' silly attempt at controlling piracy.

    --

    Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
  54. Let's consider this piece by piece without emotion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I haven't the article, but man am I tired of here slashdotters get side-tracked and make muddying, confused arguments.

    Things that really should be debated (with several different, valid perspectives.)
    1. Should IP be protected at all? (I expect even many of the pro-piracy group would support some level of IP protection)
    2. How long should the protection be for (plenty of support here for shorter terms, but how many people are *honestly* saying they feel 0 years is appropriate?
    3. Is DRM effective in limiting piracy (probably not very, but again open to rational, unemotional debate supported by facts and logic)
    4. Is the production and distribution model efficient? (can of worms)
    5. Should doctrine of first sale apply (I really don't think this is a core issue, but that's a personal perspective. I suspect the sale of second-hand games would not be a deal breaker to either side in the debate. There are different views, but I dont think it's core to most piracy.)

    Things thatI feel are a distraction from the real issues above.
    1. Prices are too high. If prices were lower we wouldn't pirate. Nothing in a free market system implies you need to like the price. How many of us own aston martins? Mercedes? How many would buy them if they cost $500? IF we accept the right to control IP for a certain amount of time (even if it is only 3 months!) then the price we are asked to pay is not an argument to pirate. One reason demand curves are downward sloping is because as the price of a good decreases, more people demand it. There are innumerable markets where some people do not purchase because they value the good at less than the value to the producer. Similarly, there are many purchasers who pay less for the good than they would be prepared to. How come nobody complains that people who would be happy to pay $100 for a $50 game only pay $50?
    2. Not every pirated game is a lost sale. I'd agree with this. So what? IF we agree with IP, then the owner gets to control it. Further, some people who pirate games might otherwise purchase games (maybe a smaller number of games). To say that no revenue is lost (does anybody actually say that?) is disingenuous.
    3. Piracy isn't theft. OK fine. So what? This may reflect on appropriate punishment, but is not in itself permission to pirate.
    4. RIAA is evil. You know, some of the guys are probably quite nice and have families and stuff. Maybe they are still evil. So what? This is a separate issue, and probably one that should be dealt with. However, it is not sufficient to say piracy is Good.
    5. Piracy doesn't leave the producer worse off because they can still sell the product. It hasn't been stolen like a car. Erm, sorry, no. To repeat, some pirates might otherwise have bought more games than they would if they could pirate. So there is a cost. Taken to the extreme, if piracy is ok, why shouldn't everyone pirate? If everyone pirates, then where is the incentive to produce. We can't have a system that fails when everyone does the "smart" thing. Ok, that last sentence may have been an opinion, but I think it sounds fair?
    6. Pirated games are more useful than DRMd games. This statement is probably quite often true. Good for you. Relevance? If you don't like the game with the DRM, don't buy the game with the DRM (stay with me here, you don't HAVE to copy it either). If you don't like that the chocolate bar has nuts in it, don't buy it. Free market = nobody forces you to buy and nobody forces someone to make a product you like. Hopefully, if enough people dislike DRM and don't buy it (and don't pirate it... seriously, pay attention) then the producers will realise DRM = bad.
    7. The games suck. How will I know if I like it before I buy it? Nobody forces you to buy it. Games are not a fundamental human right. Don't get me wrong, I think it's horrendous that companies release crap, buggy games. 100% not relevant to whether it is morally wrong to pirate the game.

    Ok, I've only touched on a few. There are more. There is plenty to discuss. Good, solid,

  55. The real issue. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The real issue is that someone at the game companies saw dollar signs. Just like the music industry. "x *illion dollars lost to piracy" yeah... thing is... I don't think that money was lost. I remember a lot of people I knew growing up would copy music or pirate games... IF THEY WEREN'T THAT INTERESTED IN BUYING IT TO BEGIN WITH. If they really wanted it they bought it. If it was a type of music or game they wouldn't normally buy but the advertising caught their eye they would pirate it. Oddly, as I remember, that generated a LOT of sales. 4+ extra purchases per year by almost every person I knew who pirated. Yeah, they also didn't buy a lot of games but those were games they never would have bought as well. Some people won't buy a sports/action/strategy/rpg/puzzle/whatever game... Unless they discover they actually like it.

    I do know this. My purchasing habits changed drastically over the years. I used to buy a moderate amount of music, and a lot of games... Now, I buy NO music. I won't even turn on the radio to a station other then NPR I'm so disgusted with the music industry. I'm beginning to feel the same about gaming companies. There are enough good free (OS, Advert supported, etc) games out there that I'm not really feeling the pain as my commercial purchases drop off... again, because I'm disgusted by the companies... although I do remember a couple recent purchases... from companies that openly oppose DRM in their games and refuse to resort to the Russian protection racket that is StarForce.

    All said... I guess I'm part of the problem. I'm so disgusted with the industries that I don't even bother to buy games/music/movies anymore. I don't pirate either. I just do without... That's a big loss of sales for these companies. 5-10 music items, 10+ games, 2-3 movies per year. 1 less person listening to the radio and 1 less person going to the theatres. and I know I can't be the only one feeling like this.

    Maybe once the entertainment industry collapses in on it's own greed the next batch to come along will have a little respect for their customers and realise that treating everyone like criminals only make matters worse.

  56. I meant to add: by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    I am not supporting the ethics of the self-justification that was used by the student in the example. I am merely asserting its reality: most piracy occurs when there would not have been a sale anyway.

  57. Off-topic by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    Why are you making a big deal out of something that wasn't even in the discussion? Whether it is ETHICAL or not was NOT the topic of discussion, and I never stated that it was! It was whether piracy is stealing. It is NOT. And it is not for a lot of very practical reasons, not some "technicality". Go get a law book and learn something. Or at least stop changing the subject and berating people for not saying things that were not even part of the conversation!

  58. I did read your statements by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    and there must be a misunderstanding, probably over the phrase "not worthy". I thought you meant something that apparently you did not.

    I do agree with most of what you say here, and would add that in fact Disney was one of the corporations that were instrumental in getting copyrights extended to such a ridiculous degree. Michael Eisner was in charge then, and a bunch of Disney copyrights were in danger of expiration and falling into the public domain. Eisner was not about to let that happen.

  59. IP isn't property, it's a monopoly. Piracy needed by Bluefirebird · · Score: 1

    "It is common to argue that intellectual property in the form of copyright and patent is necessary for the innovation and creation of ideas and inventions such as machines, drugs, computer software, books, music, literature and movies. In fact intellectual property is not like ordinary property at all, but constitutes a government grant of a costly and dangerous private monopoly over ideas. We show through theory and example that intellectual monopoly is not necessary for innovation and as a practical matter is damaging to growth, prosperity and liberty."

    http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/intellectual/againstnew.htm

    --

    Fear is the mind-killer.

  60. Haha. That's funny. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    I am obligated to "read directly" from a law book because you say so? I don't think it works that way.

    But as for the reasons you mention, I will give you one freebie:

    The law generally considers copyright infringement to be different and distinct from theft, in part because theft deprives a party of ownership and use of property. Copyright infringement does not deprive the owner of the ownership or use of the original product; therefore they are fundamentally different.

    Do not take personally my reluctance to elaborate on this; it is just that I have explained this and other related concepts seemingly endlessly, in many discussions of copyright here on Slashdot, and I tire of repeating myself.

  61. I'm a pirate? AWESOME! by ZekoMal · · Score: 1
    -takes off eye patch- Oh...so I'm not a cool pirate with a gun, a parrot, a ship, or a plucky crew that is against the alliance and constantly runnin' from reavers.

    I bought pokemon yellow, and after years of just playing that game like mad, it eventually just wore out (if I move it, it deletes the save data, which is pretty awesome, but annoying if I ever decide to put down my gameboy color after playing). Well, deciding for nostalgia purposes that I wanted to play again, I downloaded it. After some time of playing it, I decided that I liked it enough to buy a hard copy that worked, and go play me some Pokemon Stadium.

    Going by the flimsy 'law' of piracy = downloading any game/music for free that could be sold for money elsewhere is evil, I should be fined a large amount (despite buying the game -twice-) for daring to download the game and steal money from Nintendo (the chances of finding a brand new Pokemon Yellow that would fork over a profit to Nintendo in any way is slim to none; most stores sell 'em used).

    Piracy would also be, apparently, when you decide to give your game to a friend once you are done. They didn't pay, after all. Or how about the fact that me and my friend share the same Sims 2 copy, even though we both bought expansion packs to add on to the game (and my friend bought the Sims 2 that we share)?

    Yeah, screw this -gets out 'game design for retards' book-. Get back to me in 5 years, I'll be the moron trying to sell DRM-free games for $30.

  62. "Piracy" is now an overloaded word. by gatkinso · · Score: 1

    One meaning to to steal or commandeer at sea (or air), another is to illegally copy published material.

    Get over it, it is just a word. It wasn't my choice to call it that: I would have just settled for "stealing."

    Now, back to the topic at hand....

    --
    I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
  63. N64 vs PSX? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The article casually makes mention that the PlayStation was widely pirated, while the N64 wasn't. But... the playstation totally KILLED the N64 in sales.

    Also, nintendo ds software is very widely pirated, and it's extremely easy to do. Yet the DS is one of the most popular platforms ever, and many companies feel so confident that they can make a profit that there are countless crappy shovelware titles on the system.

  64. Quote... by Bert64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why is copyright necessary? Why can't all information just be distributed without restriction? Copyright falls under the banner of a range of laws controversially referred to as Intellectual Property laws. The aim is to provide intellectual property a similar type of protection as that afforded to physical property. For example, whether you spend your life building houses or writing books, you should be equally entitled to reap the rewards of your labors and have the same sorts of legal protections against people seeking to unfairly benefit from your work without contributing appropriately towards it. It's argued that without protection against such theft, both the builders of houses and the authors of books would have much less incentive to invest their time and money into their respective outputs, particularly because they would stand little chance of earning appropriate income from their work.

    "have the same sorts of legal protections" - This i don't have a problem with... The problem is profiteering, when people will produce something once and then produce infinite copies of it for virtually nothing. Someone who builds houses can sell each house they've built once, and then have to go to the same time and effort to build another one. If they stop building houses, they no longer have any houses to sell and stop making any money.

    The two things are completely different, and thus should not be afforded the same level of legal protection at all. It sickens me to see greedy people continue deriving revenue from something they did many years ago, and for that matter deriving obscene levels of short term profit.

    There should be a cap on the level of profit, after which copyright should lapse... What makes these people so special that they can work for a year or two and then have a life of luxury while the rest of us have to work for 50+ years.

    --
    http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    1. Re:Quote... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are talking games here, they have a limited life (along with the hardware they use).
      Nobody has claimed that they continue to make money for many years.

  65. lock&key... by Pentium100 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    From TFA:

    So really, all locks and keys do 99% of the time is present a constant inconvenience for legitimate users. If we lose them, we're locked out of our own houses or cars. Yet strangely enough, you won't find a groundswell of popular opinion stating firmly around the Internet that "door locks don't work!" and demanding that everyone remove them because of the inherent inconvenience that they impose. Why is that? Probably because everyone is the owner of physical property of some kind, and is willing to endure the constant inconvenience of various locks and keys in their daily lives in the hopes of protecting that property from potential theft, even if in reality it actually provides them with no real protection against most thieves.

    If I have a lock on my door, it only inconveniences ME (the owner) and the thieves. Now if I want at least some protection from thieves with added inconvenience to ME, it is my right. The lock on MY door will not inconvenience YOU (if you are not a thief).

    DRM inconveniences CUSTOMERS and not the OWNER (the company which made the game).

    Now, you know that stores use video surveillance and those detectors near the doors that beep if you have something stolen. Those measures are relatively not intrusive, but do not eliminate shoplifting 100%. Suppose a store decides to really eliminate shoplifting - by having every person leaving the building stripsearched. How many customers would that store have?

  66. Re:Let's consider this piece by piece without emot by Bert64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    1. Should IP be protected at all? (I expect even many of the pro-piracy group would support some level of IP protection)

    yes, but it shouldn't be treated like physical property... it is not physical property and pretending like it is, is just stupid... the protection should be extremely limited with an aim to ensure a producer gets a short term benefit relative to the effort they invested, just like if they were working a normal job.

    2. How long should the protection be for (plenty of support here for shorter terms, but how many people are *honestly* saying they feel 0 years is appropriate?

    It should definitely be much shorter, especially in the modern world where things become obsolete so quickly... as it stands, lots of software ends up being lost or completely unobtainable because its no longer profitable but also not legal for third parties to distribute... having a shorter term should also serve to stop profiteering, where someone earns a completely disproportionate amount of money relative to the amount of work they did, i dont think anyone should have the right to continue profiting from work they did years ago, you lazy arrogant assholes get off your ass and actually earn some money.

    7. The games suck. How will I know if I like it before I buy it? Nobody forces you to buy it. Games are not a fundamental human right. Don't get me wrong, I think it's horrendous that companies release crap, buggy games. 100% not relevant to whether it is morally wrong to pirate the game.

    If people knew a game sucked beforehand they would never buy it... but how are you meant to find out if a game is lousy without buying it? demos are often very different from the final game (like a demo will have a good level, the full game has 20 more crap levels) and you don't get bad reviews anymore because all the reviewers are bribed or coerced by the big publishers... magazines and websites doing game reviews get the games for free to review, and a good portion of their revenue comes from advertisements... if they publish a good review then the freebies continue, the publishers buy advertisements in publications who give them good reviews and they may get other kickbacks (read: bribes)... but if they print bad reviews, then the advertisements will dry up, the freebies will dry up meaning they have to buy everything they review further increasing their costs, and they stop getting bribes... an unfavorable review can easily kill a game review publication.

    --
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  67. fuck Tweakguide by kribby · · Score: 1

    Starforce was hated because it would force CD-ROM drives to go into PIO mode, which in long periods of time, can damage the drive. It has been documented by a number of people who fixed their suddenly-slow CD-ROM drives by removing Starforce.

    I don't care if Daemon Tools or Alcohol is considered a 'rootkit' in definition.....at least they don't install drivers to obstruct my use of a certain piece of legit software.

    real dickmove there, tweakguide.

  68. But not music, right? by AugstWest · · Score: 0, Troll

    Now if only someone was allowed to present such a sane argument about music piracy on Slashdot, I would think people might have finally actually grown up.

    Fat chance, tho.

  69. Ah, but are you buying the games you like, now? by Animaether · · Score: 1

    Suffice to say that I think your "I was poor" argument is, well, fairly poor.. especially nowadays with a plethora of free (beer / speech / etc.) games available, but even in the end of the 80's; I remember buying BBC Micro magazine and typing in listings of games from the magazine - for free (yes, that's source code right there) - such as Clogger. The magazines were cheap, even with them having to be imported out of the UK, easily afforded by not spending allowance money on, say, candy... beer... cigarettes and a ton of other things other kids my age were spending -their- money on.

    However, your remaining arguments are very, very valid. Demos are supposed to be representative, but often they are not (Breed, Half-Life (yes, Half-Life was awesome, but I dare say the demo level was a notch above the rest of the game). Granted, reading around for reviews helps a bit in overcoming the shock of a full game not living up to the demo as the reviewer is likely to point this out - but reading another's review does not give -you- a full evaluation of the product.

    Of course there's very few products where you can get a full evaluation before paying; short of the situation of eating at a restaurant, you most usually pay up front and then get to 'evaluate' the product afterwards.. if you don't like it, you can usually return it, but sometimes not. I know that games make 'returning the item' difficult if not impossible, so let me get off this tangent right quick and get back to the prior paragraph..

    So given that the only way to fully evaluate a game is to essentially fully play the game, I agree that a pirated copy works wonders for it. Won't work with online games - and those are becoming the norm - but for single player games or games that you can still play on your own servers, it's a perfect solution (for you, not for the developer/distributor).

    But the question is.. now that you have this available to you, and you evaluate a game, and presumably you enjoyed the game (if you don't, I fully suspect that you'd delete it without another thought)... then what happens? Do you go out and buy the game at full price? Do you decide that it isn't quite worth the full $40, and wait for a few weeks for it to be discounted to $20? Do you wait even longer and wait for it to be in the $5 bargain bin? Or do you simply say to yourself "well I'm already playing the game for free - what's in it for me if I go and spend anything on it at all? Warm fuzzy feeling inside? ha."

    My warm fuzzy feeling inside makes me hope it's one of the first few options.. the reality around me is that by far the majority of those who would pirate games go with the last option.

  70. Article wrong about The Pirate Bay's costs by Trixter · · Score: 2, Informative

    The author mistakenly thinks that the TPB's infrastructure must not cost a lot simply because the website is spartan. The Pirate Bay is a tracker, and the author should look into what a bittorrent tracker does, and then multiply that by the millions of people that visit TPB each hour.

  71. O my dear Economics: by fineghal · · Score: 1

    Whenever I see one of these articles I always wish for the ability to post images.

    Or more accurately a supply/demand curve. (I'm going to use some slight inaccuracies to make a point)

    If the price-point is ZERO then demand is essentially infinite.

    Piracy is merely an example of this.
    If the movie I want cost $5 I will buy it, and so will a couple of 100K people. If it cost $50 I won't. Same bloody thing. Just because something is pirated doesn't mean a sale is lost.

    1. Re:O my dear Economics: by sykopomp · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind, though:
      Demand is essentially infinite...
      ...
      ...but so is supply!

  72. you think so ? by unity100 · · Score: 1

    pal, terror, despite being termed recently, has long been around. how do you think mongols conquered entire asia except india into the east europe ? read. horrible history.

  73. Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Plumber, eh?

    That sounds like a good idea for a game...

  74. What a joke by dkarma · · Score: 1

    Water is free, but companies charge for it...does that mean i'm stealing if i drink the same water out of a clean stream even though a company processes that water and sells it? Many people play video games that others have bought and never pay a dime...they play for free. The same is true of data available on the internet or via bittorrent. Just because I play a game for free that someone is selling doesn't mean I've violated a moral code. Furthermore, the more disturbing trend is the idea that just because a company has made a product they morally deserve to get paid for it. If i play a friend's game that he rented for a dollar. I played for free. If i download the same game I played for free. Why is one less moral than the other simply because in case A. the company got money? Deserving is subjective and there is no metric by which to measure deservedness. Just because you make a product doesn't mean you DESERVE to get paid for that product. Especially if that product is nothing but positive and negative charged ions on MY computer hardware. Claiming loss from computer "piracy" is a universal negative that can never be proven. Just because I didn't buy your product doesn't mean you lost anything...you didn't I just didn't buy it. Whether or not I play it anyway is irrelevant. By the author's logic you're stealing from the water company every time you drink from a stream. You're stealing from a car company every time you walk. Don't you know that people PAY to transport themselves? YOu're stealing right now because you didn't PAY FOR THAT LIBRARY'S INTERNET CONNECTION! Don't you know that companies charge for internet access?!?! If we learned anything from Enron it is that companies and morality can be (and usually are) mutually exclusive.

  75. A Rose by any other name... by Ostracus · · Score: 1

    TAG:STOPCALLINGITPIRACY.

    Yup we should start calling it "Copyright Infringement" so we can come up with even better excuses than before.

    --
    Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
    1. Re:A Rose by any other name... by Kneo24 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're missing the point here. Calling it piracy, and thus people who do the act, pirates, is just denigration. It's done to vilify the people more than what they probably deserve.

  76. No, it isn't by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    because THAT WAS NOT THE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION.

    Now, if the topic of discussion had been whether it was ethical to pirate software or other products, I would probably have been on your side. But it wasn't. Instead, I was basically accused of defending assholes, simply because I was explaining that there was a difference. And I found that to be rather... irritating, let's say, because I was not in fact defending pirates. I was simply trying to educate people.

  77. for progress' sake by bonjour3 · · Score: 1

    i think companies need to get with the times and start using alternative business models. without popularity, your company will never get off the ground. so make a game like starcraft, have millions of players even after 11 years, free internet game access (battle.net), and then go on to create more innovative games for pay. http://www.3v3bgh.com/

  78. Trying to... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Here's a few gems as I struggle through:

    Just as the printing press brought about a whole new set of problems with regards to unauthorized duplication, the Internet has similarly required specific measures designed to address the new possibilities for piracy it opens up.

    Not necessarily. Anyone remember the videocassette?

    Every new invention, including the printing press, has been fought by exactly the industries which stand to gain the most from it, if only they are willing to change. And when that change inevitably comes, they find themselves even richer than before.

    The important difference between digital piracy and the types of copyright infringement that came before it - such as taping songs off the radio - is that digital piracy allows perfect reproduction with no quality loss.

    Burning CDs allow perfect reproduction with no quality loss. The music industry fought burning CDs. They ended up making money by selling media and burners -- at least, Sony did -- and they continued to make money selling CDs and concert tickets.

    And so it is with the Internet. Their costs of reproduction are pretty much nil, even costs of a live broadcast are much smaller, and it's that much easier for the fans to connect, as well. It is their greatest opportunity yet. But they are fighting it, and that is why they're failing.

    The aim is to provide intellectual property a similar type of protection as that afforded to physical property.

    *head asplodes*

    Physical property, when taken, must be replaced. It is real, and can be possessed. It operates under fundamentally different rules.

    And when you factor in DRM, you find that they are not trying to protect intellectual property. They're trying to take away what you assumed to be your physical property -- your CDs, DVDs, etc -- and ensure that you are, in fact, only renting.

    For example, whether you spend your life building houses or writing books, you should be equally entitled to reap the rewards of your labors

    Indeed -- so find a system that actually parallels them.

    If I build a house, I can't then replicate it into thousands of identical houses for a fraction of a cent each, and then sell them for a profit. And I'm sorry, but that model is ending for other media, as well.

    The successful artists are getting paid like the housebuilders -- for actual work. That is, if you're a musician, sure, print a CD, but it is a promotional material -- let people pirate it. Your product is your tour.

    Without copyright laws the GPL couldn't operate, because it's through the rights that are enforceable under copyright law that the Linux movement can place terms and conditions on their licensing arrangement in the first place. Without copyright, the default and only possible distribution method for anything everywhere would be via the public domain

    I'm sure that many GPL advocates would be perfectly happy with that situation. After all, the primary evil of proprietary software is that it discourages sharing.

    Disclaimer: I don't actually think it's evil, and I do develop proprietary software.

    The argument is straightforward and both intuitively and logically sound: for every pirated copy of a product, there is some potential loss of income to the producer of that product.

    The arguments put forth here universally center around the loss piracy causes.

    What they completely ignore is the potential gain. Piracy demonstrates a much more effective method of distribution -- I'm at a loss as to why I can't legally obtain TV shows or movies via BitTorrent. It is also free advertising -- a pirate may eventually buy the game, and if the pirated version is at all good, they may in fact convince others that it's worth playing.

    It also increases awareness of the game and the brand, something which might otherwise be done with expen

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  79. I know what a Cracker is,,, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I was young I used to wait
    On master and hand him his plate
    Pass him the bottle when he got dry
    And brush away the blue-tail fly

    Chorus

    Jimmy crack corn, and I don't care
    Jimmy crack corn, and I don't care
    Jimmy crack corn, and I don't care
    My master's gone away

    When he would ride in the afternoon
    I'd follow him with my hickory broom
    The pony being rather shy
    When bitten by the blue-tail fly

    Chorus

    One day he rode around the farm
    Flies so numerous that they did swarm
    One chanced to bite him on the thigh
    The devil take the blue-tail fly

    Chorus

    Well the pony jumped, he start, he pitch
    He threw my master in the ditch
    He died and the jury wondered why
    The verdict was the blue-tail fly

    Chorus

    Now he lies beneath the 'simmon tree
    His epitaph is there to see
    "Beneath this stone I'm forced to lie
    The victim of the blue-tail fly"

  80. Article is a crock by Torodung · · Score: 1

    From TFA:

    The aim [of IP law] is to provide intellectual property a similar type of protection as that afforded to physical property.

    This would be nice if it were true in the slightest. The stated aim of copyright in Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution is...

    To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.

    ...and the term "Intellectual Property" didn't exist in the 18th C, sparky. Wiki says 1967 was when it was first coined.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property

    Seriously, this guy spent paragraphs assuring us that he spent time, researched, and can back up what he says with more than just hearsay, and then provides the most commonly regurgitated piece of hearsay, the granddaddy of all industry lies regarding copyright, shortly thereafter.

    He's got delusions of competency on the subject matter, on his research skills, and on his writing ability. FAIL.

    P.S.: WTF is the "Linux Movement?" Does he mean the FOSS movement? Do we need to change GNU to GNLED? (Gnu's NOT Linux Either, Dumbass)
    Could we read the f-ing article before posting a bunch of incompetently written, factually inaccurate crap as "News for Nerds?"

    --
    Toro

    1. Re:Article is a crock by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      He said IP law, not copyright, dumbass. IP law exists to give copyright, which you so (un)helpfully defined, "a similar type of protection as that afforded to physical property".

      Here is an idea: You and your ilk should try NOT twisting words and phrases. Your ilk loves to misquote, interchange words, and diliberately misrepresent the statements of others and you do it because your arguments can not stand otherwise.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    2. Re:Article is a crock by Torodung · · Score: 1

      That must be why I put in the "[of IP Law]" edit right there in the quote to clearly define the fact that he was talking about all IP law. What a word twister I am. Paranoid much?

      Okay, I'll try to explain this calmly, and maybe you'll come away understanding the law better.

      I did not misunderstand his argument. The whole article is (partially) rooted in a faulty premise that he clearly swallowed without documentation or evidence. If he had talked to anyone familiar with any IP law about it, he wouldn't have missed it. What he unambiguously stated, IP law tries to create physical property remedies and rights for ideas, is a common lay misunderstanding of what "Intellectual Property" means. At least he understands that infringement and larceny are handled completely differently in the law, but the article has a weak rhetorical foundation because that clarity is contradicted by his prior assertions.

      In U.S. History, the first IP law was enumerated in the Constitution. The reason I use that to illustrate my point is twofold, 1) common law is based in precedent, and 2) any discussion of "software piracy" is by definition a discussion of copyright. My comment stands: He's accepted the foremost lie about copyright and IP, that "Intellectual Property" refers to actual property, rather than being a poorly worded phrase for a set of laws whose primary purpose is to create a safe haven for innovation and rights to control and benefit from the fruits of one's own innovation.

      I really wouldn't have had as much of a problem with it if he hadn't spent the first page and a half making repeated assurances that he had gone to great lengths to bring facts and not anecdotal evidence.

      If you feel the need to argue that you are competent to shed light on a subject as an introduction to an essay, then it's very likely you aren't. QED.

      Here's a sound tip for yourself and the article writer, if you are indeed different people: write what you know. This basic premise was utterly wrong re the facts of the law, and the explicitly stated intents of the people who wrote the law. The point of patent, trademark, and copyright is not to create "imaginary property." "Intellectual Property" is a lousy, oft-misunderstood term, but we're stuck with it.

      --
      Toro

    3. Re:Article is a crock by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      The whole article is (partially) rooted in a faulty premise

      Show the premise of faulty. Oh, wait, you can't because it isn't. Your convoluted explanation shows how little you know and understand of IP and IP law.

      And, what is really funny to me is that your ilk have no problem violating other people's copyright thus violating the "a safe haven for innovation and rights to control and benefit from the fruits of one's own innovation".

      Your ignorance and selfish attitude does not justify what you do, asshole. Now go STFU and die.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  81. That sounds nice and all but... by Dracil · · Score: 1

    If I labeled chocolate ice cream on a menu horseshit, would you really find it as appetizing as if it wasn't?

  82. I'm into retro the most, so I reference: by PotatoHead · · Score: 1

    AtariAge is a good start.

    http://www.atariage.com/

    You can also find stuff for other systems at their hubs. lemon64.com would be one such hub for the C64.

    The fun thing is that older systems really do have some excellent capabilities. Here we are up to 30 years later, seeing new ways of doing things still happening. And since there are significant limitations, there is a lot of room for the simple game art to show. Last year, there were at least 10 commercial quality titles release for the old Atari 2600. All can be played in emulation.

    The Atari 8 bitters saw many titles, and this being one excellent one: http://yoomp.atari.pl/

    Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNxICcU3bPo

    Go find an emulator, and load up some great retro stuff!

    I find the progression of graphics tricks, new game play mechanics, controllers and such just as entertaining as I do the progression of serious graphics engines and such on the modern systems.

    The difference is, I can literally e-mail the authors of YOOMP! and congratulate them, buy a cart (if they produce one, some don't!), and ask, "how the hell?" and get some kind of an answer!

    This year is was weak, but I also enjoy the mini-game compo. Google 2008 mini-game compo for the links to the site. There are vote packs where emulators games and instructions are stored for voting. This is an online version of writing cool games for one another in high-school. I participated in one of these for the 2600, got 11th place and had a blast! Mine was OOZE! and I think it was 2006.

    For me, it's Atari stuff more than anything else, because it's what I like as a kid, so it carries over for me. New people show up all the time though. I see them run emulators, then get real gear, then some of them author, the rest just play and sometimes buy. A good author can make a coupla grand with a well realized production, and quality packaging. It's enough to make it fun and rewarding.

    You can find scenes for Dreamcast, NES, ColecoVision and others.

    Have fun! I do.

  83. Had to add, there is also a budding by PotatoHead · · Score: 1

    scene on micro controllers. The Parallax Propeller is a very capable chip. It's inexpensive too. I've a coupla development board setups, and can run lots of titles, and there are some in the queue. Most of the code is open, meaning you can tweak, learn, build and just have fun with it.

    http://wikispaces.propeller.com/

  84. How to end game piracy by theleoandtherat · · Score: 1

    All they would have to do is package the game with a tee shirt or something really cool for less than 30 bucks

  85. For such a long article.... by stephenhawking · · Score: 1

    He didn't go deep enough into the history of copyright to understand what copyright is really for. The original purpose of copyright has been so distorted by the lobbying and propagandizing power of various industries, that most lawmakers don't even know what it's really for. Everyone thinks, like this article's writer that it's to give "property rights" to content creators, so that they can protect their "intellectual property." What it's really therefore is to encourage the creation of creative works for the benefit of the greater good of the people (the greater good of the people should be behind all laws in a supposed democracy right?). It's purpose is to enrich a very important and undervalued concept called "the public domain." The temporary monopoly, is an incentive to content creators to create works which will ultimately enrich the public domain, at least in theory. The Public Domain has been completely destroyed by this process of lobbying and propagandizing corporate desires into legislation. Much of the significant creative work of the past century is caught up in it, even if it's not available to the public (this is more common than you might think.) So, let's always remember that the people in general are a much larger and more important group than the content creators. Copyright is a privilege granted by the people. The fact that "right" is part of the word I think is a bit misleading. It's not an inalienable right like life and liberty, as many people, this author included seem to not understand.

    1. Re:For such a long article.... by stephenhawking · · Score: 1

      And I forgot to mention, I'm a musician, songwriter, composer and also a web designer. So I know what it's like to be on the content creation end as well.

  86. TLDR by joocemann · · Score: 1

    gave it a shot. facts and opinions are not clearly provided and references are largely not from credentialed literature (such as research journals).

    I don't trust this article. Will not finish reading.

  87. Did anyone read the article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The author made a very convincing case and it is apparent by most of the comments here that no one read anything.
    Almost all your points against him are refuted by FACTS in his article. Yet you continue to spout the same objections:
    "If it was cheaper I wouldn't pirate it" -not true, proof in article
    "It's my right to own the game" -which you bought for $50 and they spent $50 million on
    "DRM doesn't work and chases people away" - For every person it chases away, 5 more people buy it because of the inconvenience of pirating

  88. try it! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If people are foolish to not pirate, them I'm foolish to keep making games for the PC. So I'll go work as a plumber instead.

    If you did, you would probably find that it pays better to be a plumber than to be a software developer. Plumbers also usually have reasonable working hours.

  89. "potential income" != income. by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

    Sorry, but "potential income" != income.

    Every person on earth could "potentially" buy my new tennis shoe line, but if they don't, or if they buy a competing line, they're not "stealing" from me. (don't compare it to shoplifting, copying does not deprive the originator of inventory).

    Additionally, those people consider the price too high. Since they've already optimized the price, they're not going to lower it. That is their problem, not a problem of piracy. They didn't implement differential pricing, and probably never will because of all the backlash it would cause by the people who pay "regular" price.

    It's quite simple. Pirated copy or not, they would not have bought the game. To them, the convenience to price ratio is not good enough.

    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  90. This is the case for me, but.. by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

    The OP suggests that "most people will opt for the free route" simply because the product is free. I would argue that due to overly restrictive DRM, people prefer the free route because "hacked" or pirated products are better.

    This is the case for me (though the fact these mega-glomerates are in a vast conspiracy against a neutral internet and strangling the tech sector also helps a lot).

    "rips" are DRM free, about 4 to 10 times more storage efficient, play anywhere without issues, and, freed from a disk, don't MURDER my laptop's battery life.

    DVDs may be too mangled by DRM to back up, even with ripping tools.
    Both DVD and Blu-Ray will eat a laptop battery faster than pirana on a fresh carcass.
    Then there's the atrocity that is blu-ray. "Down-resing" and blacking people's screen? Raising the cost of our hardware considerably by using MS to dictate ludicrous hardware requirements? Destabilizing drivers and operating systems by making them incredibly difficult to write?

    Steve jobs alluded to this in his statement on why mac has been slow to integrate blu-ray, albeit with a great deal more civility than anyone who has fallen victim to this scheme would be.

    Pirated products are the better choice, and I have absolutely no sympathy for these companies when a few teenagers in their basements can encode their movies four times more efficiently while maintaining the same quality.

    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  91. A few suggestions by freedom_india · · Score: 1

    Ultimately companies must realize that copying games without paying for them is going to continue irrespective of any technological advance companies make, because ultimately the same developers who produce these advances also hate the companies they work for.
    1) Let the gamers download the game from any place. Rapidshare, torrent, etc. In fact it reduces the cost of hosting for the game company.
    2) Let the buyer pay and get a key to unlock the Game completely. (I pirated Red Alert 3 because it was NOT available on my home country. It still is not.)
    3) Avoid modifying OS files. Its the gamer's computer and if you have to secure your game only by trashing the gamer's PC, then your game will definitely be "modified." Just like you don;t like your game to be modified without your permission, so does the gamer does not like his PC to be modified without his permission.
    4) Try to support the gamer is he finds it difficult to install or play. Don't treat him like a thief. The gamer is much, more intelligent than your answering drone.

    --
    "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
  92. PC vs Console... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

    The article goes to great lengths to point out that console games outsell pc games, while there are more pc users than console users and then blames the difference on piracy...

    What they have not taken into account, is that very few people buy computers just to play games...

    Of all those millions of video cards sold by ati/nvidia, a significant number will go into office computers that will never run games, a lot of people buy highend computers because they want the best they can afford, and never plan to play games... And don't forget that almost 100% of industries involved in graphics related work these days will be using nvidia or ati cards, this is video work, graphics editing, cad work etc, companies buy highend machines capable of playing games by the thousands, and even people only looking to watch high definition video will be buying higher end video cards.

    When it comes to gaming on the pc, it is often a lot of hassle for end users, even if your machine meets the published minimum spec you have no guarantee it will run or run at a playable speed, you could have incompatibility with background apps you have installed, or configuration issues, and drm schemes just increase the chances of things not working right.... pc gaming is a lot of hassle for end users, and so you get a much greater proportion of technically savvy users than you do on consoles.

    Buying a pc game is risky, since you have no guarantee it will work, yet you are unlikely to be able to return it for a full refund... Console games on the other hand are guaranteed to work first time with no hassle. Smarter people will try before they buy if there's a risk like that, and the only way to do that is to pirate.

    Also, 99% of console users bought the console specifically to play games, the proportion of pc users who did that will be massively lower.

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  93. Piracy is more about access than value. by master_p · · Score: 1

    In the old pre-internet days, it was much easier to just ask the neighbor to hand you the game tape or disk or CD so as that you can copy it, than going out and buying it.

    In these days, it's still easier to just download a copy than going out and buy the game. With broadband connections, it takes a few hours to download the game (you can start the download at night or before going to work and then in the morning or after work you have the game).

    Online purchases is something that most people do not trust, and they are right to do so.

    People pirate games in all price ranges. Even if a game costs $10, it will be pirated if it's one click away instead of going to the shop to buy it.

    So, piracy is more about access than value.

    In order to diminish piracy, there are a few things than can be done:

    1) internet communications should be encrypted at all points (even DNS). Granted, that's a huge step economically (and perhaps technologically), and certainly something governments would fear, but that's the only way to unlock the online economy. As long as this does not happen, people will not trust online transactions.

    2) games should be delivered incrementally to the customer. Why should I want to download a full game if I don't want to play it? I want to try it. Demos are a step in the right direction, but then after playing the demo, I don't have the option of downloading just the next level, I must purchase the whole game.

    1. Re:Piracy is more about access than value. by PFI_Optix · · Score: 1

      as for 2, you're describing episodic content. A number of games have done that, to mixed reviews.

      I personally abhor the idea of buying games one level at a time and think that model would make games tedious and not worth the effort. Let me drop $50 on the whole thing one time and be done with it.

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  94. Piracy is environmentally friendly by betterpc · · Score: 0

    Keep in mind that piracy is not all that bad: piracy is environmentally friendly...

    1. Re:Piracy is environmentally friendly by PFI_Optix · · Score: 1

      Then we should be rewarding the game distributors who are going green by selling on services like Steam and Impulse.

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      120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
    2. Re:Piracy is environmentally friendly by RyatNrrd · · Score: 1

      Steam really need to sort their shit out. TFA has a long list of legitimate complaints about Steam. In particular, Steam really should sell their downloads for less than the box price. If it undercuts the retailers, I don't care. I don't need another middleman in my supply chain.

      When you buy a game from Steam:

      1. You can't re-sell it. Customers should be compensated for this by paying less up-front.

      2. You run the risk of never being allowed to play your game again if Valve go bankrupt and shut down their servers. This is simply unacceptable.

      3. You pay for the megabytes to have the game delivered to you. You should be compensated for this.

      4. You don't get any printed material, so your purchase is worth less. Again, this should result in a lower price.

  95. In Indiana, copyright infringement is theft by tepples · · Score: 1

    There are technical, legal definitions of theft, which don't include the act of making digital copies.

    In Indiana they do. The Indiana Code defines theft to include "transferring or reproducing: (A) recorded sounds; or (B) a live performance; without consent of the owner of the master recording or the live performance, with intent to distribute the reproductions for a profit." True, federal copyright law preempts state law except for sound recordings published prior to 1972, but there are a lot of works published prior to 1972.

    1. Re:In Indiana, copyright infringement is theft by kumanopuusan · · Score: 1

      Wow, thank you for finding that. I'm amazed. I concede the point entirely.

      What is your interpretation of the "intent to deprive" clause? The section on evidence doesn't seem to list any evidence of intent to deprive that would apply to duplicating music. If there is no intent to deprive, unauthorized control over property is not theft under the Indiana definition. However, I'm sure the application of the code is much more complicated in real life.

      --
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  96. I hope you have $1K by tepples · · Score: 1

    For me, no game is worth more than $5. Not because I'm cheap, but because I hardly ever play, and if it do, it's only for a while. So if you want to get $50 from me you are going to let me play like 10 different games or so.

    Good. Nintendo can squeeze at least $1,000 out of you for WarioWare Inc. Mega Microgames, which contains over 210 games.

  97. Which clone of Spore? by tepples · · Score: 1

    There is already a competitive market for creative works - if you don't want to play Spore you're welcome to play another game instead

    As I understand it, you mean something like playing Lockjaw instead of Tetris, or some off-brand ludo board game if I don't want Hasbro's Trouble, Sorry!, Aggravation, or Parcheesi. I'll take you up on that offer if you can answer one question: Which Free game with similar rules to Spore would you recommend?

  98. Close substitutes by tepples · · Score: 1

    "If you think The Sims is overpriced, just buy Unreal Tournament instead". Which is, needless to say, also quite ludicrous.

    It is only ludicrous because you're leaving the genre. The alternatives to The Sims are Harvest Moon and Animal Crossing, and an Unreal game is the alternative to a Quake game. The problem here is that Spore is in an oddball genre that doesn't really have a lot of close substitutes yet.

  99. Intrusive DRM by P00k13 · · Score: 1

    The people who are up in arms against EA's new DRM are some of EA's best customers. These customers are mostly just afraid they won't be able to play the games they paid for a few years later because the DRM servers no longer authorize the game. They are NOT the customers who buy the game and then sell it on Ebay who won't need rights to play it years later. They are also NOT the people pirating the game. Pirates have little reason to protest because they get the games without the DRM attached anyway. The people upset are just scared because they are losing the guarantee that they can still play years later. EA suggests we should blindly trust them that we will still be authorized, yet the placement of DRM feels like they are telling us that they don't trust us.

    If the article is right, I can see why EA wants to block pirates though, but I don't think it should be done at the expense of the good customers, which is what I feel EA is doing now. Personally, I hate pirates because they are taking advantage of not only the game publishers, but also people like me who buy a lot of games (as the article discusses about freeloaders taking advantage of what paying customers fund). The only real advantage I have is that I can have an effect on which games are made in the future because every purchase is basically a vote for that type of game. But punishing me further by restricting my rights, in hopes to slow down pirates, is not the answer. I'm almost to the point where I'm ready to just look for a new hobby.

    As a side note, I just want to point out that the number of PC gamers aren't equal to the number of hardware sold, as the article implies. I buy a new video card yearly, and a new pc every 2 years. Hardcore PC gamers like to do that in order to get the best visual experience from new games. (Although I still get out and play my older games sometimes too and need to still have rights to play them)

    I agree with the article that Steam is not the answer though. My blood pressure was way up when trying to install Left 4 Dead. I uninstalled all my steam games and steam and even reinstalled my video drivers, but the game would not install. I finally found something on a forum the next day saying I need to delete a file from the Steam folder, and then it installed. Valve might make good games, but Steam obviously has some problems, and also removes rights to install games, even just by being buggy software. I will be looking for games that don't use any DRM in the future. If the day comes when all games use DRM, I will find a new hobby to spend my time and money on.

  100. Not a farce by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Fast forward to the 21st century, and piracy has apparently somehow become a political struggle, a fight against greedy corporations and evil copy protection, and in some cases, I've even seen some people refer to the rise of piracy as a 'revolution.' What an absolute farce. ..."

              This is not a farce. Well, against GAMES it probably is. But most people making this claim that it's a political statement are getting movies and music, and that IS a fight against greedy corporations. They use every accounting trick in the book to make sure records and movies lose money on paper. Lord of the Rings, each movie made over $800,000,000.... the movie company *still* claims the films have not broken even, to avoid paying any percentage of profits written into people's contracts.

              This is also a practical fight against DRM... so many music and movie sites (the "legal" ones I mean) insist on putting restrictive rights restrictions on everything (which aren't as easy to get a crack for as for games...) they charge full per-track CD price for music that is tied to one computer (or 0 computers, if the software to handle the rights restrictions malfunctions.)

              It's still a bit silly I suppose, but I do view movies and music seperately from software and games in these respects and I think many others do too. Now, the whole article *is* about games so in context what he says is valid.

  101. A couple thoughts by sgt+scrub · · Score: 1

    I know this isn't a fix for people that would rather not pay for software; but, it does apply to a fair percentage of people that download games.

    Bring back the demo. The only reason I have ever downloaded a game was to see if it was worth the money. The demo allows people that comfort. Back in the day, downloading the finished product after completion of the demo was pretty common. At least that is what happened with Doom, which we all know sealed ID's fate as a successful company.

    Fix, get rid of, the mandatory CD/long waits for the DRM checks. When I get a game that is difficult to start because of all the CD/DVD checking/DRM evaluating bullshit, I WILL figure out how to get it to load without the CD. And when I go through all the hassle and hard work of figuring that out, I'm going to share it. When someone tar/rar/zips up the content of the game's folder with the crack in it and puts in on P2P networks, IMHO it is the "we want DRM" folks fault.

    --
    Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
  102. Complete bullsh*t by gmezero · · Score: 1

    Ok, smart ass, if "Piracy is the result of human nature: when faced with the option of getting something for free or paying for it, and in the absence of any significant risks, you don't need complex economic studies to show you that most people will opt for the free route." then why has Stardock been consistently improving sales since the early nineties. They have NEVER used copy protection or DRM. They make solid products that people want to buy and provided added value elements to purchasers.

  103. Come On by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of all of these "pirates" how many would have ever bought the game if they couldn't have pirated it? I think almost none. For a tiny percentage of their total sales these companies spend tremendous amounts of money on DRM solutions all of which have been hacked. They limit my freedom, make me feel like a thief whenever I install it. I have to think, can I install it on this machine or will that look bad? Will they ban me? If i want to uninstall it, do I have to worry that I won't be allowed to reinstall? How fucking stupid. Except for my WII, I haven't bought or played any new video games in four years, fuck them, let those companies dry up and blow away.

  104. Ignoring the morality of IP... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I sent the following e-mail to the guy. I think it's worth re-posting here.

    "I got to say, I'm very disappointed with the one-sided, top-down, Pro-IP slant of your article. I'm not going to bother arguing the morals of IP law with you, as I assume you've already shrugged off a lot of the points I'd try to make, but I would like you, for a moment, to consider the potential functionality of a game industry sans Intellectual Property.

    Imagine a world where, instead of people paying other people for the use of IP, people paid other people to produce new IP. One person could make a game and put it on-line for free, and tell people that he'll start work on a new game when he get's $5,000 in donations. If the game is good, and people like what they see, they can go and make a donation. If the game is crap, then the game's creator get's nothing, and is forced to go back to his job at Burger King. Under this system, people get paid for their work, piracy is a non-issue, and the number of crap games on the market drops dramatically.

    You might be saying now "sure this works on a small scale, but what about big budget games?". Consider this: with out IP law, all game engines become open-source, and the cost of entry to game production drops drastically. A team of five people could put together a fun few levels of a new game on the current industry engine of the week, and make some money. They could then take that money, and use it bring new people in, beef up the engine, and put out more levels. Repeat the cycle until you have game development companies comparable to what we have today.

    I, personally, think this system would be highly preferable to the system we have now. I'd like to know what you think of it."