Scientists Build Neonatal Incubator From Car Parts

Peace Corps Online writes "The NYTimes ran a story this week about a group of scientists who have built a neonatal incubator out of automobile parts, including a pair of headlights as a heat source, a car door alarm to signal emergencies, and an auto air filter and fan to provide climate control. The creators of the car-parts incubator say that an incubator found in any neonatal intensive care unit in the US could cost around $40,000, but the incubator they have developed can be built for less than $1,000. One expert says as many as 1.8 million infants might be spared every year if they could spend just a week in the units, which help babies who are born early or at low birth weights regulate their body temperature until their organs fully develop. Experts say in developing countries where infant mortality is most common, high-tech machines donated by richer nations often conk out when the electricity fizzles or is restricted to conserve power. 'The future medical technologists in the developing world,' says Robert Malkin, director of Engineering World Health, 'are the current car mechanics, HVAC repairmen, bicycle shop repairmen. There is no other good source of technology-savvy individuals to take up the future of medical device repair and maintenance.'"

Comments

but

[weirdo557]

cars are pretty expensive, unless there is a huge supply of broken cars i cant see this panning out.

Re:but

[Vectronic]

Thats sarcasm right?... cause, you know with stuff like...

Police have seized more than 25,000 cars in Greater Manchester since new powers to tackle rogue drivers were introduced last year.
More than 10,000 have been crushed.

And thats in "Greater" Manchester alone, which is about 3 million people or so... and that doesnt include just normally scrapped vehicles, or accidents.

Calculate that for various other locations in the world.

Re:but

[DigiShaman]

Ever been to a junk yard? I have many times. In fact, you can even do it online.

http://www.pickyourpart.com/

Re:but

[Clay Pigeon -TPF-VS-]

Ok cars are expensive outside of the Nanny State then. Here in Amerikkka you can't just take people's cars for speeding or reckless driving.

Re:but

[dotancohen]

cars are pretty expensive, unless there is a huge supply of broken cars i cant see this panning out.

And a huge care package for extra babies. Call me cold-hearted, but there is a reason that those babies are not surviving. Now that they will survive, there will be even more mouths on each gram of scarce food and more congestion.

1) Save third world babies
2) Have a food crisis
3) Have a population crisis
4) Have a disease crisis
5) ???
6) They die anyway.

Re:but

[Vectronic]

I dont see what that has to do with it, do a search for "american junkyard" or "african scrapyard", etc, etc.

There are millions of cars just sitting around all over the world, and stuff like air-conditioning has been around since the 1950's or so, headlights for even longer, etc.

It's not like we need to create an incubator for every baby born or anything either, there's what, 20,000 or so cities in the US? say, 2 incubators per city, thats 40,000, easily do-able, and a savings of about $1,560,000,000 (provided all 40,000 cities needed new incubators, lol)

Everett's Auto Parts ... Everett's recycles over 10,000 cars a year and has more than a thousand cars in stock for you to find just the parts you need. You can even ask us to find those parts for you!...

That single junkyard could do it in about 16 years or so (given that not all vehicles have air-con, working lights, etc), nevermind the other hundreds maybe thousands of other salvage and junkyards in the US, nevermind elsewhere in the world...

You get the idea.

Honestly, i dont really give a damn about the incubators, but the point is its a worthwhile recycling program, plus it uses a relatively small amount of the vehicles, leaving a large amount of other parts that could (should) be used for other things.

Re:but

[ppanon]

Here in Amerikkka you can't just take people's cars for speeding or reckless driving

OK. Drug possession on the other hand...

Re:but

[thatskinnyguy]

No cold-hearted, just Malthusian. There is talk about how technology has stunted human evolution. Technology has also vastly increased the Earth's ability to support human life far beyond what it would be capable otherwise. I'm still kinda riding the fence on the Neo-Malthusian/Cornucopian debate.

Re:but

[ianare]

There is a direct correlation between infant mortality and birth rate, across all living things. This is why reptiles or fish have so many offspring at once compared to mammals. In mammals, the parents protect and educate the young, ensuring lower mortality rates, and therefore don't need to produce as many offspring to have the same number of adults. Even within mammals, species that provide less maternal care will have more young more often (i.e. dogs, cats) compared to those that provide more (i.e. dolphins, apes).

Looking at our species the same law naturally applies, and its effects can be clearly seen. If you look at the countries with high birth rates, you will see they are also the ones with high mortality rates. In the short term there will be a population increase but in the long term it will stabilize. The initial increase can (and should) be reduced by providing contraceptives, legalizing abortion, teaching sexual education in schools, and minimizing the influence of religion (if it goes against the first 3). These are things that all modern societies have done, I don't see any reason why others would be unable to do so.

Re:but

[xaxa]

Ok cars are expensive outside of the Nanny State then. Here in Amerikkka you can't just take people's cars for speeding or reckless driving.

Here in the Nanny State we have a lot less road deaths.

Most seized cars were uninsured. If you pay the fines you can get the car back, but if you've been banned from driving for a year or two for driving uninsured and your car wasn't worth much anyway it might not be worth it.

Re:but

[Ortega-Starfire]

But we have more than enough junk car yards. Trust me, you could get the parts needed for cheap. It's the fully functioning new cars that cost money (and even those are pretty cheap right now, thank you Mr. Bush)

Re:but

[khallow]

I'm still kinda riding the fence on the Neo-Malthusian/Cornucopian debate.

Why? Here's a question. In the technologically advanced parts of the world, what is their birth rate, especially for people native to that region? Once you've answered that, you'll see why the neo-Malthusian view of the world is broken.

Re:but

[quenda]

Technology has also vastly increased the Earth's ability to support human life

Unfortunately, it's much worse than that. First, so long as countries have a high birth rate, any technological advance only delays (and magnifies) the coming Malthusian disaster.

Secondly, many of the technological advances are temporary, especially in 3rd world countries, as they depend on cheap oil for mechanisation, fertiliser and pesticides.

The current economic situation has given oil a small reprieve, but the shit will hit the fan some time. It might start with some "unexpected" coincidence of multiple factors: a drought here, a war there, a crop disease somewhere else.

N.America, Australia, Brazil etc suffer a little with reduced exports. China bids high for what remains. Africa starves first, with places like Indonesia and even India not so far behind.

And guess what? There is nothing we can do to stop it, short of mass involuntary sterilisation. Even if all the Americans go vegetarian, banning grain-fed beef and ethanol fuel, it only delays the problem a short time.

Birth rates are the time bomb, and China is the only third world county to be doing anything about it. Mass-starvation (millions of deaths!) is _very_ fresh in their minds.

You can argue over all the variables of crop yields, oil reserves, etc, and it only changes when, not if, mass global food shortages will come.

Re:but

[noidentity]

cars are pretty expensive, unless there is a huge supply of broken cars i cant see this panning out.

I thought the point of using car parts is that they are cheap, easily available, and run on 12 volts (so the device can run without A/C, and be charged by another vehicle).

Re:but

[yndrd1984]

First, so long as countries have a high birth rate, any technological advance only delays (and magnifies) the coming Malthusian disaster.

True, but when higher technology is actually available, the birth rate drops. This has held true for about 1/3 of the earths population across several cultures.

Secondly, many of the technological advances are temporary, especially in 3rd world countries, as they depend on cheap oil for mechanisation, fertiliser and pesticides.

Right, in the long run the only solution is to covert them into first world countries.

Re:but

[gunnarstahl]

This is one of the most ignorant and arrogant views I have heard in a long long time. And you even get modded insightful. Wow.
Yes, third world faces horrendous problems. War, dictatorships, racism, food crisis, diseases.
So yes, it is a dying world. And by your proposed logic something like homicide shouldn't even be considered a crime there, because "They die anyway".

All the foreign aide going into third world is useless, because "They die anyway". Safe the money which is invested into the education in these countries because "They die anyway".

I do not hope that the next time you visit a doctor this pendulum swings back to you. Might be interesting to see if you'd agree to some totally arrogant bitch of a stranger telling the doctor to stop helping you because "Listen doctor, in another couple of decades he will die anyway".

The reason for saving the lifes of people is to give them a chance to create a better world. But interesting enough with people like you, living in such a better world (No, I do not know your particular world, but from the point of view of some of the poorest people in this world your life looks like heaven, no matter how hard you think it is), there is a reason why this world is turning for the worse every day a little bit.

Yt,

Gunnar

Re:but

[he-sk]

I take it you don't have kids, do you?

Call me cold-hearted, but there is a reason that those babies are not surviving.

Yes. They don't have access to proper medical care. Cold-hearted asshole.

Re:but

[yndrd1984]

Looking at our species the same law naturally applies...

The numbers work out the same, but I don't think it's due to that law. In nature, choosing an R-type (many and cheap) or K-type (few and expensive) reproductive strategy is something the occurs at a genetic level, and has to happen because resources are limited.

But since that balance is in the genes, you can 'break' that law by putting the creature in an unnatural situation. Bacteria in culture or rabbits in Australia can have low mortality and rapid reproduction, because they aren't being held back by predators or a lack of resources. Human beings are in a similar situation in the first world - we could easily have an average of eight children per female like in the third world and still have very low mortality - but we don't, so some other factor must be involved.

Re:but

[hey!]

Well, in poor countries they keep things running longer, so there aren't a huge supply.

One way of thinking about this might be that there are different financial scales of purchasing in rich countries and poor countries. This leads to different qualitative phenomena, e.g., the attitude towards labor and the prevalence of things like personal servants.

In a rich country, a proper neonatal incubator probably costs a considerable amount of money, but not so much that a hospital with a maternity ward would hesitate to buy enough of them to handle the maximum likely demand in their neonatal ward.

In a poor country, a proper neonatal incubator might be more like getting a CAT scan machine -- every hospital probably could use one, but not every hospital can afford one. However, although a used car (or pile of parts) is a considerable expense, it is one that is affordable on their scale of finances. The labor to transform the car into an incubator is negligible.

All countries have rich people. In fact all countries have something of a middle class. So all countries are going to have cars and a considerable infrastructure to supply those cars with parts. So it's quite practical to look at ways transform cars into other things. We did it in this country when cars were new and expensive relative to the median wage: people tranformed model T's into all kinds of machines.

Re:but

[Hognoxious]

Here in Amerikkka you can't just take people's cars for speeding or reckless driving.

You can't just take them in the UK either.

Re:but

[Henkc]

Honestly, i dont really give a damn about the incubators...

Nice one. You're obviously not a parent...

Re:but

[Anonymous Coward]

When you're a rabbit in Australia, you have three choices. Eat, Sleep, Reproduce.

When you're a woman in a first world country, you have a few more choices. Some of these choices (career?) beat out the whole "vagina=clown car" system.

Re:but

[Anonymous Coward]

> in the long run the only solution is to covert them into first world countries.

Does not work, they still have 3rd world mentalities. Go to any part of eurabia, every burka clad bitch has 5 brats in tow and another on the way.

Mean while the local population can't have children because they both have to work to keep a home and eat. Then there's taxes - which go to all the scrounging wogs so they'll keep voting for leftist pandering scum.

Re:but

[beadfulthings]

Thank you for the first reasonable post in this thread! (I know there are others to follow.) People who don't know any better can talk about birth rates all they want, but it's the infant mortality rate that tells the tale. Combine that with the number of otherwise healthy adults dying from diseases like HIV/AIDS and you have places in Africa where the few children remaining are being raised by their few remaining grandmothers because there aren't any parents left to do the job--or to put in the crops or otherwise bring in money and food.

For the past eight years, very capable American agencies have had their hands tied because they can't mention (for example) the fact that you can prevent the spread of HIV by the use of condoms or that you can space the births of your children by means of condoms or other birth control. I'm optimistic that all this is about to change with the new administration, but a lot of ground has been lost in eight years.

The other issue that hasn't been mentioned is that birth rates may be higher in rural, agrarian, or subsistence-level economies because it takes more people per family to make a living. Children, and large families of them, have been an asset across thousands of years. It's only in the past couple of hundred that this has changed.

Also, idly, I'd entertain thoughts of taking the "let the babies die" folks on a stroll through a neonatal intensive care unit and allowing them to choose which of the babies got to live and which had to die. That's because I also believe at some level that humans who haven't been conditioned or brutalized have a natural instinct to try to save any distressed human young that we happen to run across.

Re:but

[Vectronic]

Nice one. You're obviously not a parent...

Nice one. You're obviously not telepathic...

Re:but

[Anonymous Coward]

Shit, I know its too much of stretch to expect RTFA from many /.ers but I sort of thought that posters and their moderators would read at least the first half of the fucking summary before engaging in a public display of their stupidity.

From the summary:

an incubator found in any neonatal intensive care unit in the US could cost around $40,000, but the incubator they have developed can be built for less than $1,000.

Okay assholes, what this means is even though an incubator built of brand new off the shelf car parts would cost a whopping $1,000, that is only 1/40th the cost of acquiring current technology.

Pretty absurd, eh? Does that suggest that just maybe the "health care industry" is riddled with companies that are in it for the greed? Does it seem that the world might be a better place if idjits with organic neural nets sophisticated enough to participate on slashdot would pay some attention to the cesspools in the "health care industry"?

Re:but

[maxume]

It isn't Malthusian. The Western ethics are brought/pushed in well ahead of the economic infrastructure that makes them viable. It isn't a 'people will probably starve if infant survival rates increase', it is a 'hey look, infant survival rates increased ahead of the starvation and unrest in <region>'. I guess the point is not that the population pressure cannot be dealt with, but that the population pressure is not being dealt with.

It still makes a mountain of sense to have a policy of trying to make peoples lives more secure (and then easier), but things need to be done in context, not done because they are obviously right in isolation.

Re:but

[Ihlosi]

Pretty absurd, eh?

Only for people who are bad at math. They're quoting $1000, which is probably just the cost for the parts, and compare it to the catalog price of a brand-spankin'-new incubator which comes with such niceties as being already assembled, being safety- and biocompatibility tested (and you can sue the heck out of whoever made the thing if anything goes wrong), etc.

Re:but

[Golddess]

Maybe so, but from TFS...

The creators of the car-parts incubator say that an incubator found in any neonatal intensive care unit in the US could cost around $40,000

Something tells me that as long as you aren't restricting the cars utilized for this to brand new Mercedes-Benz or Hummers, the cost isn't going to be as high as the current ICU equipment.

Re:but

[Anonymous Coward]

A forty-fold increase in the price of a tangible item to cover feel-good intangibles is something you consider reasonable for a health care appliance?

With logic like that, is it any wonder that the health care industry is such an incredible cesspool of greed and corruption?

Re:but

[SCPRedMage]

"vagina=clown car"

Seriously, I know we're talking about an AC here, but this NEEDS to be modded funny...

Re:but

[Ihlosi]

A forty-fold increase in the price of a tangible item to cover feel-good intangibles is something you consider reasonable for a health care appliance?

Being already assembled is a very tangible benefit, and the whole biocompatibility stuff is also very tangible (or rather - you'll realize the difference after having been in contact with the surfaces of the thing). Same goes for all the other questions. Can it be sterilized properly?

And no, a factor of 40 between a bunch of low-quality, untested parts that maybe can be assembled into something and a tested, finished product that works out of the box is not unreasonable.

Re:but

[sunking2]

Your own newborn baby needs an incubator. There are two sitting there, one but together with old car parts and another brand spanking new unit. Just for the hell of it they offer you $5k if you use the old car parts one. Which do you choose to save your baby?

Now I don't disagree with you. The medical industry is insane with its costs. I just got the bill for a minor surgery and its insane when you look at the line items. $100 for a friggin scalpal. But relying on do it yourself medical equipment might not be the best idea either in a life or death situation.

Re:but

[Anonymous Coward]

And no, a factor of 40 between a bunch of low-quality, untested parts that maybe can be assembled into something and a tested, finished product that works out of the box is not unreasonable.

No, a factor of 4%, or possibly even as much as 40%, would be a reasonable way of distributing the one time costs of development over the units produced for sale. The factor of 4,000% is not reasonable.

You, sir, are confusing reason with the common rationales used to justify the absurd profits of the health care industry. Don't do that.

Not that it should matter since the argument stands on its own merits, but I speak from 10 years of experience working as an Intensive Care Unit Registered Nurse and an additional 10 years working in hospital administration roles.

Re:but

[domatic]

The initial increase can (and should) be reduced by providing contraceptives, legalizing abortion, teaching sexual education in schools, and minimizing the influence of religion (if it goes against the first 3). These are things that all modern societies have done, I don't see any reason why others would be unable to do so.

Trying to explicitly do that won't work well. Religion tends to violently oppose direct attempts to "reduce it's influence". Those things tend happen anyway in societies that increase their affluence. In affluent career-oriented societies children are a burden. They have to be housed and educated to quite high levels. They also pretty much need to be maintained well above sustenance levels to gain entry to work/social ladders. So it isn't common to have more than two or three or even one kid in such societies. Most people also survive to old age in these societies and many AREN'T supported and maintained by their children in old age.

Societies with high birth and deathrates need many children for their version of social support. Many won't survive to even young adulthood so the birthrate goes high to offset that. In addition, those few who survive into old age are respected elders and can expect that the younger generations will provide for them. Cut the birthrate without addressing the economic side and the societal balance is gone.

If one wants to help a society in such straits, then find a way to raise the industrial/tech level. All else is band-aids.

Re:but

[domatic]

If there is a proper incubator to use sure. But if the choice is between a car-part one and nothing and the child will almost certainly die with nothing then the car-part incubator starts looking pretty good.

Re:but

[philspear]

There are millions of cars just sitting around all over the world, and stuff like air-conditioning has been around since the 1950's or so, headlights for even longer, etc.

Exactly! My baby was concieved in the back of a 57 cadillac, it's only appropriate that he's incubated in one too.

Re:but

[X0563511]

That's assuming that new parts are not available.

I would imagine that, even if you purchased new and shipped from an auto parts store, these would be worlds cheaper than a normal incubator.

Nobody said the parts had to come from used cars...

Re:but

[couchslug]

"That's because I also believe at some level that humans who haven't been conditioned or brutalized have a natural instinct to try to save any distressed human young that we happen to run across."

That an instinct exists does not make it useful. When we eliminate natural selection and try to protect maladapted cultures from the effects of their defects we perpetuate problems. There is no reason to try to preserve the backward peoples who cannot preserve themselves. It does not benefit us.

Re:but

[vertinox]

You can argue over all the variables of crop yields, oil reserves, etc, and it only changes when, not if, mass global food shortages will come.

I don't see what the problem is. Overpopulation is a self correcting system.

Either technology will be improved to allow for the new population numbers or a war will ensue thereby creating more technology in the process (ie WWII)

To say technology can't solve the problem is a bit small minded. It has been solving the problem for over 500 years in advancements in agricultural and industrial production. In fact, even with population increase, last decade there were more than 100 million less people in extreme poverty.

Now it is not sustainable with current technology, but technology constantly improves because there is a demand for it.

To say the world going to fall apart into anarchy is just dumb. If it would have, it would have done so in the 1930's or 1970's when the global situation is quite worse..

Doesn't mean people should stop breeding, but that its not doom and gloom as people put it.

Re:but

[Henkc]

Apologies for my previous knee-jerk response - it's just that your comment touched a nerve, being a parent who experienced the gut-wrenching anguish of seeing a child in an incubator.

Perhaps your comment wasn't meant to be flippant WRT life-saving (possible) innovations.

Re:but

[sbeckstead]

hey we have broke auto makers looking for a new revenue stream don't we?

Re:but

[gregbot9000]

Of course mass starvation is still very fresh in the minds of the Chines, never mind the fact that they were caused, like the starvation in many parts of Africa, by failed government policies.

There is plenty of growing capacity on earth, the only reason that supply will not meet demand is because of market manipulations by the governments like what is happening in Zimbabwe. The Oil bogyman doesn't really work, worst case scenario they will go to coal gasification and let the developed nations cry about global warming.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/alex_singleton/blog/2008/04/13/big_government_causes_starvation

Re:but

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, in the long run the only solution is to covert them into first world countries.

Just a matter of getting them hooked on internet porn, then that girl next door just doesn't look as desirable anymore.

Maybe the OLPC project may help the population problem, provided it's kept well into teen years and has a good .jpg viewer and plenty of drive space?

Re:but

[roc97007]

> I dont see what that has to do with it, do a search for "american junkyard" or "african scrapyard", etc, etc.

This seems like it'll get some play in 3rd world countries, but I don't see it happen in the US. Anyone who tries it will get sued or legislated out of existence. For instance, there will be the inevitable dimwits who worry about carbon monoxide poisoning.

This will only work in areas that have access to sufficient car parts, and have a sufficiently low enough ratio of lawyers/humans to be allowed to use it.

This is great!

[thesaurus]

A use for all those cars we Americans won't buy now! We can bail out Detroit and save babies at the same time.

Re:This is great!

[waferbuster]

Support the automotive industry bailout!

Won't somebody just think of the children!

I love projects like this..

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a reminder of what can be done with old-fashioned, low-tech stuff, and that breakthroughs can remain a down-and-dirty job and you don't need millions of dollars in funding to get one.

Re:I love projects like this..

[saider]

Who paid for the engineers' and all the testing and certifications for that device?

That is what eats up the cost with all these medical devices, not the cost of parts.

Re:I love projects like this..

[scorp1us]

Um, no. Not in the US. If a unit had a failure leading to death, the family would sue, the hospital, and the equipment manufacturer for multiple millions each.

See, we've moved past just being happy to be alive. We now need to have someone else be responsible for providing for our existence too. That's how good it is here in America!

Re:I love projects like this..

[PapayaSF]

There's little reason for incubators to be particularly high-tech, given that they were successful when first invented in the 1880s. And the story of their development is fascinating: to generate publicity, the inventors displayed infants in incubators at large exhibitions and world's fairs starting in the 1890s. Beginning in 1903 Martin Couney ran his incubators as an exhibit at Luna Park in Coney Island, where it was quite popular at 25 cents a ticket (when most attractions were 10 cents).

So for decades, the best premature infant care facility in the country was run as a profitable sideshow attraction!

Cool

[skiphoppotamus]

I work at Children's Mercy Hospital and Clinics in the ICN and I can tell you from first hand every day experience that creating affordable incubators that can be brought into lesser hospitals would dramatically help what is an increasingly high premature birth rate here in the Midwest.

Re:Cool

[darkmeridian]

I get the feeling that better prenatal care of the mother would prevent a lot of those premature births. A lot more than better incubators, I'm sure.

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

I work at Children's Mercy Hospital and Clinics in the ICN... creating affordable incubators would dramatically help what is an increasingly high premature birth rate here in the Midwest.

I've never worked at a hospital and can tell you that creating affordable incubators will do absolutely nothing to help what is an increasingly high premature birth rate in the Midwest ;)

Re:Cool

[mad flyer]

And you want the fun part of that... here in Japan. The Red Cross refuse donation other than... MONEY...
I'm in an old maternity clinic where they stopped deliveries as the owner is getting too old for this kind of 24h a day duty cr@p and so we have inpatient beds, newborn beds (all heavy duty japanese made, stuff that can survive a nuke). Brand new incubator and delivery table. ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING WAS REFUSED.
Seems that the japanese Red Cross suffer the common local problem known formerly only by politicians... You cant buy blow and prostitute with hardware donations...
So everything will be scrapped. Ain't life great.

Re:Cool

[DDLKermit007]

The Japanese have this weird hangup about 2nd hand stuff. Boggles my mind, but I love it when I'm in Japan. Few want the stuff, and the original owners were anal-retentive Japanese so are generally practically new after a few years use! End up with near mint condition stuff for less than what would show heavy use stateside.

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

[citation needed]

Re:Cool

[gunnarstahl]

So much to the question if you should trust your feelings. If you really care, take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premature_birth

And I know from first-hand experience that prematire birth can happen without giving you a chance to intervene.

Yt,

Gunnar

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

So touching ... but how exactly an incubator helps a 'premature birth rate' ?

Re:Cool

[skiphoppotamus]

It doesn't improve birth rate--I wrote my comment at 2am after working *laughs*. Only certain levels of hospitals are capable of handling certain procedures/patients, like cancer etc. We have two helicopter pads just to accept children from Chicago, Minneapolis and other cities around here. If incubators were more affordable, these hospitals could therefore afford to treat patients without being as stingy. example: "this kid is not sick enough to fly overnight to kansas city". In most hospital settings, incubators and other intensive care nursery machines are the limiting reagent--not staff or docs.

Re:Cool

[maxume]

In the first world, some big chunk of the premature births are children of young, poor, single mothers. That suggests that intervening before conception would be a straightforward way to reduce premature births (I'm not suggesting that they should be prevented from having children, I'm suggesting that they are a high risk group that could be encouraged to delay having children until a time when there is less apparent risk).

Re:Cool

[ColdWetDog]

I'm glad you woke up. I was going to query you about the mechanism for the existence of incubators decreasing preterm births. You could likely patent that.

But are you sure your current premise really holds water? Out here in rural Alaska, we have three (count'em) incubators. That's NOT what keeps us from keeping the premees. It's the fact that neither the doctors nor nurses feel comfortable caring for a even marginally ill peanut. It's the people, not equipment. I'm sure that both would be in short supply in rural Africa, so the original idea does not sound too generically useful.

Re:Cool

[LanMan04]

I get the feeling that better prenatal care of the mother would prevent a lot of those premature births. A lot more than better incubators, I'm sure.

Then again, maybe those premie babies wouldn't have made it at all if it weren't for good prenatal care. Kind of like the statistic that the US ranks like 37th in the world in terms of infant mortality. It's probably not because of poor care, but because of exceptional care. All those infants that died after birth probably would have been stillborn/killed the mother by dying in the womb. The babies would be just as dead, but not classified as "infant mortality".

Re:Cool

[skiphoppotamus]

Very interesting, I haven't had much contact with people in Alaska over this topic--we have 85 beds with x-ray and a few other nicknacks as well as the capability to have up to three kids on ECMO. It could be the difference in hospitals or the area...my aunt is a respiratory therapist in Wichita, KS in their ICN and they have maybe...5 beds? They fly kids to us pretty consistently. Both hospitals don't have problems staffing...young nurses seem to love working with babies down here. We do have difficulty staffing ECMO though.

Re:Cool

[gregbot9000]

Yeah, but that would require changing people, not just creating a cheap technological fix.

What does this really mean?

[GodfatherofSoul]

Sounds to me like this is a statement more of price gouging on medical equipment more than the ingenuity of the scientists (not to belittle their effort).

Re:What does this really mean?

[jcr]

price gouging on medical equipment

Nope. I've worked in medical imaging from time to time in my career, and you'd be shocked to learn what kind of costs are imposed by government regulations. An 8-bit, 1024x1024 monochrome CRT can cost $15K easily, and it's not because the vendor wants it to cost that much.

-jcr

Re:What does this really mean?

[Davemania]

Thats because the stringent testing that is required for medical devices. If we're talking about devices that doesn't play any pivotal role in medical treatment, it often doesn't require the verification and stringent testing and would cost significantly less(alot of the cost for devices are on clinical tests). Imagine if you use a off the shelf monitor for a multi-million dollar imaging machine, and it failed to display a small cancerous anomaly correctly ...
This article doesn't really say anything about the current state of medical devices, it just simply costs alot to build and verify they work in an acceptable manner for medical purposes. I don't think the machines talked about in these article will ever be adopted in the west. I doubt the reliability of these components will be up to scratch compare to the regular prenatal care machines BUT for third world countries where the medicial facilities are so poor, its probably worthy to think about adopting these machines as a temporary stop gap and thats probably the point of this exercise.

Re:What does this really mean?

[jcr]

Thats because the stringent testing that is required for medical devices.

That's what the FDA would like you to believe, but in my experience, that's bullshit. The costs go into the insane amount of red tape and hoop-jumping that it takes for FDA to grudgingly acknowledge that you've done your homework and the product performs as advertised.

-jcr

Re:What does this really mean?

[Davemania]

I've had experience with regulations and biomed industries, not just the FDA, but european etc etc. Theres a reason why companies have to do all these regulation and testing for medical devices, the more intrusive or critical the device it is, the more testing and verification is needed. (Not that it ever catches every single bug or design flaw) but a safety mechanism is needed (for recall, tracking manufacturing, design etc etc) and to show that the these company have at least taken common problems into considerations. I have no doubt there is probably some red tapes in all the regulation agency, but there is a reason why critical medical devices cost so much. This isn't some FDA or CE conspiracy to jack up the price (at least most of it).

Re:What does this really mean?

[jcr]

This isn't some FDA or CE conspiracy to jack up the price (at least most of it).

Their purpose isn't to drive the costs up, that's just a side effect of giving them far more power than they should ever have had.

-jcr

Re:What does this really mean?

[saider]

Most FDA regulations are in place because someone died from a malfunction. The FDA is a very reactionary organization. They do not think ahead, they are trying to prevent a repeat of past problems. The problem is, there have been many problems that we do not want to repeat.

Re:What does this really mean?

[gregbot9000]

Yeah, Government at it's best. I'd rather take my chances with the OTS monitor than with my current provider: Prayer.

Re:What does this really mean?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had experience with regulations and biomed industries, not just the FDA, but european etc etc. Theres a reason why companies have to do all these regulation and testing for medical devices,

and that reason is to raise the barrier to entry from competition.

Let's say there is a market for 1,000 devices at $1M each ($1B total) and 10,000 of them at $1,000 each or less ($10M). Let's say the device is a "medically certified" version of a $400 LCD screen.

If I'm the first one out, I want the certification for the next guy to cost $500M, even if I have to pay the $500M too.

Yes, I lose a half Billion to the certification process. So what, that keeps anyone else from getting in the game, and I still take in nearly a half billion MORE than that as profit.

These kinds of "size neutral" (aka screw the little guy) regulations are frequently/generally the same as zoning laws. Zoning laws suck if you want to make something, say a tree house in your front yard, but they are great for keeping anyone else from changing your view.

Re:What does this really mean?

[RockDoctor]

Imagine if you use a off the shelf monitor for a multi-million dollar imaging machine, and it failed to display a small cancerous anomaly correctly ...

Imagine indeed ... how much easier it is to point the finger of blame at an inanimate lump of machinery, instead of the training of the person who only used one view in one image of the suspect lesion.

I just drill holes in the ground for a living ; if I made a diagnosis (one way or another) on the basis of a single image viewed from a single perspective a single time ... well I'd deserve the sack.

Car parts ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, at least those kids get a good start..

-1 misses the point?

[DerekLyons]

Um, the problem isn't a lack of repairmen Mr Malkin - it's a lack of electricity. A problem which this incubator doesn't fix. (No, the motorcycle battery isn't a fix. It's a backup. With no electricity, this incubator dies just as dead as a high tech one.)

Re:-1 misses the point?

[nonsequitor]

I think you missed the point. The point is that this can be repaired with car parts by a mechanic and is more robust than the higher tech units. Having cheaper more robust technology is important for developing nations since it allows first world countries to help bootstrap improvements to their quality of life. While I can't speak to how many hospitals are lacking electricity, I would say this is going to enrich the lives of many people around the world and is definitely a good thing.

Re:-1 misses the point?

[Slashdotvagina]

Um, the problem isn't a lack of repairmen Mr Malkin - it's a lack of electricity. A problem which this incubator doesn't fix. (No, the motorcycle battery isn't a fix. It's a backup. With no electricity, this incubator dies just as dead as a high tech one.)

Not a problem. A small motorcycle internal combustion engine could run continuously to provide electricity via a generator. Now all that's required are babies that breathe carbon monoxide.

Re:-1 misses the point?

[MillionthMonkey]

Any baby can do that for at least a few minutes.

Re:-1 misses the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Interestingly, a while back someone invented a way to have a car engine create electricity.

I know, it's pure magic.

However, if you are already using car parts to build an incubator, I'll bet you could use the rest of the parts to make a pretty good generator.

Re:-1 misses the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

MY GOD YOU'RE A GENIUS!
We can evolve the human race, one incubator at a time!

Now what will you do, Mr G. Warming?
Where's your poisonous gases now?!
Humans 1
Nature 0

Re:-1 misses the point?

[DerekLyons]

Try reading TFA.

Re:-1 misses the point?

[maxume]

Your definition of breathing is stupid.

Re:-1 misses the point?

[mpe]

Not a problem. A small motorcycle internal combustion engine could run continuously to provide electricity via a generator. Now all that's required are babies that breathe carbon monoxide.

Or someone comes up with a low tech method to make either a power cable or an exhaust pipe :)

Re:-1 misses the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm.... I think that was a joke

Finally.....

[budword]

A slashdot story that cries out for a car analogy.

Re:Finally.....

[Thanshin]

Look at it this way: If the incubator was a car...

Ok, that's all.

Re:Finally.....

[CraftyJack]

It's also screaming for a Tony Stark reference.

Mission Criticality

[_Hellfire_]

My daughter was born 7 weeks premature and spent 2 weeks in an incubator. As a side effect of spending so much time with her in the neonatal unit, I got to know what every switch and readout on her machine did. It was a very impressive piece of equipment designed to do one thing very well - keep a helpless human alive.

I would hazard a guess as to say that the insides of the machine are built with all sorts of hardware redundancy checks inside to ensure that its critical mission is carried out no matter what (I'm pretty sure it even had a UPS); which probably contributes somewhat to the high cost. That and the liability aspect inherent with any machine that keeps humans alive (from auto-respirators to space-suits).

I am fortunate enough to live in a country with a high standard of health care, and my daughter's stay in her expensive machine saved her life; however if a lower cost alternative that does the core functions of the expensive machines can be built for countries that are not as well off as we are, I am all for that. Expensive machines are also expensive to maintain, and if the TCO can be lowered to the point that poorer countries can operate them comfortably, that's got to be a benefit. It just goes to show that ingenuity knows no bounds.

Post-apocalyptic computing

[Thanshin]

This gives me hope.

Some day, someone will find a way of creating a computer from wood and stone. And then I won't feel inferior to car mechanics because of my uselesness in a post-apocalyptic scenario.

(Yes, I know a car is more useful than a computer in the first months, but years of gaming must have prepared me for fending the radioactive zombies till a new order is established.)

Re:Post-apocalyptic computing

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't even need the wood: http://xkcd.com/505/

xkcd is like the Monty Python of the internets- there's a sketch for every occasion.

Re:Post-apocalyptic computing

[maxume]

Just learn how to build a good still (and perhaps how to brew beer; brewing the precursor for fuel is pretty easy though, you don't care how it tastes). You will be far more useful than the mechanics.

Re:Post-apocalyptic computing

[shawb]

Back in my day, we didn't need no fancy wood to build our computers. Stone was all we needed. And we liked it.

Re:Post-apocalyptic computing

[Anonymous Coward]

http://xkcd.org/505/

We need... Bicycle Repairman !!!

[mmu_man]

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rxfzm9dfqBw :D

sad

[Tyrannousdotnet]

too bad it couldnt be made out of neonatal incubator parts instead.

Re:sad

[MillionthMonkey]

What I need is a car made out of neonatal incubator parts. Because I definitely want good climate control.

A grand for parts...

[jcr]

... and probably forty grand for costs of FDA compliance.

-jcr

Re:A grand for parts...

[MillionthMonkey]

Why would you seek FDA compliance for a device like this? It's like seeking approval for a steak knife as an emergency tracheotomy tool.

Re:A grand for parts...

[jcr]

Why would you seek FDA compliance for a device like this?

I wouldn't, but it's the FDA that decides what they'll regulate.

-jcr

Re:A grand for parts...

[sorak]

This is for use in third world countries where the FDA has no authority.

Re:A grand for parts...

[fotbr]

And more importantly, its the insurance companies who decide wether a hospital/clinic/whatever is going to be allowed to use something. And they want THEIR backside covered by FDA approval.

I'm one of those repairmen...

[hedgemage]

After being laid off from the high-tech industry a few years back, I ended up working as a maintenance man at a large retirement facility. Our facility includes independent living, assisted living, and full-time managed care.
Since we're a not-for profit facility, there's a lot of incentive to do things in a cost effective manner, but at the same time, safety and well being of our residents is paramount. I've found myself having to repair all manner of medical equipment with little or no help from the manufacturer or seller. Things as simple as wheelchairs and walkers, to moderately complex like lift chairs and adjustable beds, to stuff like oxygen generators and emergency nurse-call equipment.
My employer would never be able to afford vendor reps to fix all this stuff, and so its left to myself and the rest of our small department. I'm the only one with a college education, and the only one from a high-tech background. The other guys have backgrounds in things like HVAC and carpentry. Simply put, the cost of health care equipment has far outstripped the ability for many facilities to support it and still provide affordable care. I was used to working with engineers, programmers, and big budgets until recently. The future of health care is not more tech, but taking the tech we have and making it cheaper and easier to maintain.

Re:I'm one of those repairmen...

[Simonetta]

I used to be an electronic technician in the medical device field (until I got fired for cutting through impenetrable FDA red tape regulations too many times).

    I have noticed the unbelievable cost difference between medical equipment and consumer electronics that use the same technology. This is due I believe to the cost-plus guaranteed-giant-profit mentality of the entire medical industry in the USA. Every part of the industry; the lawyers, the doctors, the administrators, the drug dealers, the insurance companies, the equipment makers, the FDA regulators, everyone, is working to drive the costs up without any consideration whatsoever for the long term consequences. And these consequences are the premature painful deaths of millions of people who are denied health care in the USA, both now to a limited extent and in the future to a much greater extent.

    I'm toying with the idea of an underground health movement that uses 'open-source' medical equipment that is cheap and safe, but illegal because it can't get FDA approval. Nothing in the USA gets FDA approval if it is created outside of the insaisibly greedy medical industry. I've come to the conclusion that whenever people in the USA talk about the need for 'extensive testing and ultimate safety' for medical equipment, they are expressing a code word for getting paid off big time.

Re:I'm one of those repairmen...

[Thelasko]

My employer would never be able to afford vendor reps to fix all this stuff, and so its left to myself and the rest of our small department. I'm the only one with a college education, and the only one from a high-tech background.

When someone dies or becomes injured the plaintiff's attorney will have an easy open and shut case against your employer for hiring unqualified technicians. Health care is affordable, liability insurance isn't.

Re:I'm one of those repairmen...

[nido]

There is an underground movement underway. It's just known as "alternative medicine".

Conventional medicine treats the patient by treating the symptoms. "Alternative" medicine treats the patient by addressing an ailment's many causes. Sometimes the best you can do is treat the symptoms, but most the time you can do better.

Dr. Zieve's book is a nice start.

Economy of scale

[__aabvlw4075]

I didn't RTFA, but what a lot of commenters seem to be missing is the concept of economy of scale. The great idea here seems to be that using "off the shelf", mass-produced car parts to create an incubator with equal functionality to that of a standard incubator saves a great deal of money. Plus, the car parts have been better tested and are apparently more reliable. So this is kind of like building a software system by combining lots of preexisting, well-tested components rather than custom designing everything in-house.

Re:Economy of scale

[sorak]

It is also about going into a third world junkyard and getting a local mechanic to fix the thing when it's broken. The article mentions how that many of the expensive neonatal incubators end up not being used because they either don't know how to operate it, or can't fix it five years later, when it breaks down.

I am curious how, in terms of effectiveness and quality this stacks up to what we have in America, but, in some places, they have no other options.

Re:Economy of scale

[mpe]

It is also about going into a third world junkyard and getting a local mechanic to fix the thing when it's broken

Though it could well be that the "mechanic" and the "junkyard owner" are the same people.

The article mentions how that many of the expensive neonatal incubators end up not being used because they either don't know how to operate it, or can't fix it five years later, when it breaks down.

Even if they did know how to fix it they probably can't get the parts. If these "donations" are supplied without even operating instructions what chance has anyone got of getting hold of a service manual?

Too much legal liability.

[GrpA]

I can't see it happening.

The medical industry is all about litigation. If you invent something that saves peoples lives, then of the 100 people it saves, there might be someone who dies anyway, because of device failure and you can be sure that some lawyer's already prefilled out the lawsuit against you and is just waiting for an opportunity.

A friend of mine invented a very simply device that measured skin resistance and could be placed over someone's torso (like a blanket) to look for internal bleeding. This isn't just some inventor guy, he works as an engineer in one of Australia's top universities.

As soon as the university lawyers found out it had a medical application, they killed the project.

There's no doubt it would have saved lives, but the sad truth is that the university involved would actually rather see those people die than risk the litigation of being sued if anyone tried to prove that someone actually died of the device if it was somehow misused by a paramedic at the scene of an accident.

And I don't think it's likely to change. There's too much money invested in keeping medicine esoteric and away from everyone else too allow too many companies in to dilute the spend of sick people.

Maybe it's a rant, but it's a sad truth that I beleive. Doctors are pretty much the only people who seem to get away with doing this kind of research but even then I've read of far too many doctors who are persecuted because they came up with some kind of new treatment/device.

I'm guessing that car-parts-incubators is just radical enough to get anyone who tries to market it into trouble. Even if it saved a million livess, it would bring a thousand lawsuits and while I'm sure if some parents saw an infant die because of a lack of incubators, they would say these are needed, but if an infant dies while it's in an incubator, they'll look for someone to blame. Not that commercial units are any more reliable. But what judge is going to beleive that a $1000 unit was just as good as a $40,000 unit?

Please excuse my cynicism. It's just that I've observed this more than a few times.

GrpA.

Re:Too much legal liability.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bonehead, this is intended for use in the developing world, not lawyer-land.

Re:Too much legal liability.

[jcr]

Please excuse my cynicism.

Noting to excuse. The FDA probably kills more people than the DOD.

-jcr

Re:Too much legal liability.

[theredshoes]

I agree with you. Some babies will die regardless if the incubator is 1K or 40K. It is a part of being human and doctors are not completely infallible, I wish it wasn't like that, but it is unfortunately.

When my husband died, his cardiologist would not sign off on the death certificate, I had to get his PCP to sign off on it. To this day I am still very angry about that. He had passed his stress level tests three months previous and was doing very well. The doctor took him off of heart medication I feel now that it was too soon for him to be taken off of it in hindsight. The amount of grief I felt about that fact kills me still. But, I am not a doctor and I do not know how to save lives.

At the same time, his cardiologist was one of the best in our area, and it was his call, I still feel that my husband received very good care in the end. I certainly would not have sued his cardiologist. The thing about life and death is that it is still a mystery. Some procedures will work wonders on one person and be detrimental for another.

There is nothing wrong with developing less expensive ways to save lives as long as it falls within a safe range of standards.

Re:Too much legal liability.

[Vellmont]

I'm guessing that car-parts-incubators is just radical enough to get anyone who tries to market it into trouble. Even if it saved a million livess, it would bring a thousand lawsuits and while I'm sure if some parents saw an infant die because of a lack of incubators, they would say these are needed, but if an infant dies while it's in an incubator, they'll look for someone to blame. Not that commercial units are any more reliable. But what judge is going to beleive that a $1000 unit was just as good as a $40,000 unit?

This device is supposed to be for places like Africa, where parts are expensive, hard to come by, and the locals aren't trained to repair the medical technology.

Your concerns would certainly be valid in the industrialized rich world, where people have lots of money to pay lawyers to sue medical companies. I kind of doubt that that's the case in a lot of countries in Africa. Poor people don't sue.

Re:Too much legal liability.

[merfle]

Cynicism not entirely misplaced, but...RTFA? The problem isn't a general lack of incubators here, it's a lack of repairable, durable incubators in the developing world. Not the U.S. (opinions on our current economic state aside). This is targeted to places where, with WHO approval, the FDA has no sway even though the car part incubator is an invention from American scientists.

It looks like a deliciously practical approach to development, actually. The scientist saw a problem, found what resources would be available on site to fix the problem and keep it fixed, and worked from there. It's also not something people are really going to "market" - this was done by academics, not doctors, and they really don't seem to be looking for a big payout. It's a fix for babies who die outside broken, useless high-tech incubators, and I don't see Indonesian judges having a problem with that.

(Please excuse my optimism. It's just the tail end of my hope fever.)

Re:Too much legal liability.

[Anonymous Coward]

Poor people sue all the time. Poor people don't get sued. Rich people get sued. The only rich people in Africa are the ones who control armies. Those are the kinds of rich people that don't get sued.

Re:Too much legal liability.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, bonehead, why the hell does everything medical-oriented in lawyer-land cost so damned much? The OP was right! Medical suppliers have a vested interest in making sure that competition does not exist! Whether their involvement is in actually filing lawsuits or simply providing "expert witness" testimony to help lawyers get a settlement, they are raising the bar for anyone else to enter a market that they control with overpriced, overfeatured equipment.

Lawyer-land could use a lot more of these $1k solutions and a lot less of the $40k solutions. Maybe then people could actually afford health care!

Re:Too much legal liability.

[TubeSteak]

Your concerns would certainly be valid in the industrialized rich world, where people have lots of money to pay lawyers to sue medical companies. I kind of doubt that that's the case in a lot of countries in Africa. Poor people don't sue.

Poor people sue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contingent_fee
Poor people in Africa don't sue because most of Africa has a shitty legal system.

A lot of the freedoms and equalities that exist in the USA are the result of a robust and independant judiciary that is respected and can have its decisions enforced. In many foreign countries, situations get dealt with privately (and often violently) because there is no assurance that the police or court system will be fair and just.

President Andrew Jackson is alleged to have stated:
"[Supreme Court Justice] John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!"
That is how much of Africa is.
Fortunately, it is a rarity in most developed nations.

Re:Too much legal liability.

[Firethorn]

Poor people in Africa don't sue because most of Africa has a shitty legal system.

I might be wrong, but I think they also have much more of a 'bad stuff happens' view on life. Then again, rather than sueing they'll occasionally go to town with a machete or Ak-47, depending on the individual's resources.

Sueing is better than attacks.

Then again, I think that medical malpractice stuff needs to be toned down - especially when it comes to devices. What I'd ask is 'is the average patient better off with the device than without it?', and 'for a machine of it's class, is it within a standard deviation for reliability, safety, etc...?'

Basically, any suite would have to prove that the device isn't worth the money to get any money. Defects happen. Failures happen. Mistakes happen. We'd still be scratching in the dirt if we didn't accept some risk. Risk management, not risk avoidance.

Re:Too much legal liability.

[CrimsonAvenger]

Your concerns would certainly be valid in the industrialized rich world, where people have lots of money to pay lawyers to sue medical companies. I kind of doubt that that's the case in a lot of countries in Africa. Poor people don't sue.

But rich American lawyers do "pro bono" work for poor Africans who might, just possibly, have a case against a colossally rich corporation that might choose to make these devices.

Or even against a moderately wealthy University that paid for the research.

"Anyone with money, for any reason or none" seems to be the motto of American lawyers, if not lawyers worldwide.

car parts

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, there is hope after all. They can use car parts from gas guzzler's like hummers. Those should be worthless very soon and the kids will love'em.

Let those Red Staters die

[Anonymous Coward]

Let those Red Staters and their deformed children die.

Re:Let those Red Staters die

[fotbr]

You do realize that Children's Mercy gets a lot of "business" (what a horrible word to describe sick kids, but it fits) from the Chicago area, right? Not to mention the rest of Illinois. One of those "blue" states you're oh-so-fond-of.

No big deal

[sleeponthemic]

White trash have been incubating their kids and dogs in sealed cars in parking lots around the world for years.

Re:No big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

*sigh* "White Trash".... bigot.

Re:No big deal

[NiteShaed]

I remember a few years ago a comedian talking about that. He was saying how if you used an ethnic, racial or religious slur somebody would always jump out of their seat and say "Hey, I'm a [insert group here], and you can't talk about us that way", but if he made a white-trash joke nobody was ever too eager to jump up and yell "Hey, I'm white-trash, and you can't talk about us that way".

I notice that you posted AC...hmmmm.

Re:No big deal

[sleeponthemic]

I would categorise any white person who leaves their children in their car whilst they shop as white trash so you know.. maybe not racist.. perhaps just helpfully specific.

pinball

[MillionthMonkey]

They wanted me to build them a neonatal incubator, so I took their plutonium and gave them a shiny casing full of used pinball machine parts!

Someone pitch the idea to the car companies

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Hell, the American Big Three are desperately looking for some good PR, after getting spanked out of Washington. A reformed Rick Wagoner could say, "I've given up taking joy rides in the corporate jet, and am now saving babies."

TFA mentions that they rummage around in junk yards for parts: Detroit probably has butt-loads of new parts that they will never need. The UAW will clean up their image by using volunteers to do the assembly for free.

As soon as they do this, the German auto companies will respond with a better engineered model, and the Japanese with a fuel efficient hybrid.

Oh, remember to disable the airbag before you put the baby in.

Shows how over priced some equpitment is...

[Anonymous Coward]

anyone that thinks these incubators really need to cost 40k USD is crazy. A lot of medical equipment is over billed.

Perhaps we need more tiers of this stuff. maybe most people people don't need the 40k version but there is that one kid a year that will die without it. So buy a bunch of the cheap ones and a couple of the expensive ones. Best of both worlds.

Re:Shows how over priced some equpitment is...

[Lershac]

And which one will you want to put YOUR kid in?

Scientists?

[GigsVT]

The NYTimes ran a story this week about a group of scientists who have built a neonatal incubator out of automobile parts

I think you have scientist confused with engineer.

Re:Scientists?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? Scientists cant build things in their spare time?

Hamster Wheel

[bryan1945]

Just hook them up to a hamster wheel- the running will keep them warm. Plus it will build their muscles. No need for a muffler, if you get them exposed to all the toxins early enough they will grow up nice and monstrous (good for NBA/NFL ticket sales). And just think how many cars we will be saving from silly reuse when we can encapsulate homeless people in them and then present them to French art critics as "Still Life in Auto".

Grand Theft Incubator

[deanston]

Perhaps we can create games that's not only entertaining but challenge the gamers to create things or find solutions that can benefit the society.

This is great

[johno.ie]

If this really works there might even be enough people around to eat all that surplus food that's available in 3rd world countries. Not to mention the water and energy surpluses that we've been trying to get rid of for decades. People even try to dispose of their excess water by flushing it down the toilets in some countries.

Yes, there are piles of car parts.

[Neuticle]

From my experience, I would say yes, there are huge supplies of car parts lying about in developing nations.

Sure, only the small fraction of wealthy people can buy a car, even one heavily used, but what happens to the car when it breaks down beyond all repair? Does the non-existent trash-collection agency come to haul it off to the non-existent recycling facility or proper landfill? Nope, it sits right where it broke down - unless it broke down on the road, then it will be pushed aside just enough for normal traffic to resume. After that, everything that can be removed and hauled off without special equipment will be removed. Fans, engine, alternator, lights, pumps, belts, bits of plastic, body panels, I mean EVERYTHING. All this stuff ends up back at the mechanics, since they are the only people who could get any use out of it. Parts rarely match up exactly, but things get shoe-horned into place and made to work. In a few months or so, if a big flat-bed lorry comes along, what is left of the frame will be hauled off and turned into hand carts.

My single data point: In my small little remote town there are about 4 private cars (1 was a missionary doctor), a couple of government cars, as well as a bus-stop that ran 3 or 4 buses between the nearest towns. The mechanics at the bus stop stand had a large collection of spare parts. I have no idea how many of them were functioning or to what degree they did, but there were piles and piles of all different sorts of parts. I'm sure that with a bit of trial and error, enough working parts could have been pulled out of there to construct something equal to what was in TFA. Even more, there was a shop selling solar panels to charge car batteries for 12v lighting systems. While still quite expensive, a system like this could be set up to be totally independent of unreliable mains.

I know that what passed for the hospital in town did not have an incubator, or regular electricity to run one if they did. I never personally knew anyone there who lost a baby shortly after birth, but I heard of it happening often enough. Something like this could have saved some of those lives.

Now I'm feeling some kind of reverse home-sickness :(

Re:Yes, there are piles of car parts.

[Anonymous Coward]

And you left there why? Because they threw spears at you, isn't it?

Try teaching sexual education in schools....

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps in somewhere with a strong islamic culture, like say Nigeria.

Let us know how that works out for you.

OLPC Redux?

[shungi]

Why not have an OLPC like effort. With the salvage parts, we might even get this one down to $100.

What a bunch of geniuses, durr.

[Ihlosi]

Almost any medical device or drug can be made dirt cheap if you throw enough safety considerations out of the window.

Or do these guys want to tell me that those $1000 also include R&D (just how many hours did they spend designing it?), biocompatibility testing (I don't think most materials used in cars undergo this by default), electrical/mechanical/chemical hazard analysis, etc.

Also, they're comparing the parts&labor price of their contraption to the list price of an actual incubator. Sorry guys, you fail accounting, big time. The parts&labor cost of the incubator is probably in the sub-$10k range (I wouldn't be surprised if it was very, very close to their $1000, even). The other >$30k are R&D, testing, support, etc, and of course a fat profit.

Re:What a bunch of geniuses, durr.

[OneSmartFellow]

The other >$30k are R&D, testing, support, etc, and of course a fat profit.

Based upon the typical behaviour of most businesses in the health services business sector, I'd say it's more likely that the per machine cost of parts&labor, (including R&D, testing and support) comes to about $1000, The remainder is a fat profit.

. The fact that a couple of guys can whip up what is essentially a free replacement, is an indictment of our health services industry but should come as no surprise to anyone who has looked at the true costs of providing such services.

Re:What a bunch of geniuses, durr.

[OneSmartFellow]

The ten highest paid Pharmeitcal company CEOs together earned $200,000,000 in 2008 (yes, that's two hundred million split amongst ten people in one year). The top twenty earners make that number over 300M. That means every person in the USA who bought any form of medication gave one dollar of that to one of twenty people. That's why we don't have cheap drugs in the USA, NOT becuase of pure research and development costs, but becuase of fat-cat greed.

How much of the pharma companies executive compensation is included in what they euphamistically refer to as R&D expenditure?

Re:What a bunch of geniuses, durr.

[bondsbw]

If you didn't give that dollar to the CEO, it's not like the company will take a dollar off the cost. They know you'll pay it.

My question is, why do these large companies feel compelled to give one person as much money as 500 workers combined? What could that one person possibly be doing that is worth so much money to the company?

I'm not saying that a CEO should only be paid $40K, but let's get real... the company would profit much more by cutting his salary to the 6 figure range plus stock options.

Re:What a bunch of geniuses, durr.

[Migraineman]

The high cost of equipment creates a barrier to adoption of the devices. Can't afford it? Tough, you'll have to do without. That's a basic free-market element.

As a physician or health-care provider, you'd be faced with a choice - do nothing, and suffer a X% infant mortality rate; or hack something together out of available components that does the job, reducing the infant mortality rate by Y%. What's the correct choice? That'll depend on what X and Y are. Beyond that, there are social implications (like being prosecuted for bypassing health regulation laws.)

Re:What a bunch of geniuses, durr.

[OneSmartFellow]

Agreed - Let's assume that each level of management entitles a person to 1.5 times the previous wage.

I've tried to work this out using somewhat reasonable titles for the appropriate 'sphere' of influence
I can't believe many organizations have this many layers of management, but if they do ...

worker =~ 50K (I'll be generous)
team leader =~ 75K
supervisor =~ 110K
department head =~ 165K
division head =~ 250K
group head =~ 375K
region head =~ 550K
global vice-head =~835K
global head =~ 1.25M
CEO =~ 1.8M
x1.5 = 2.8M
x1.5 = 4.2M
x1.5 = 6.3M
x1.5 = 9.5M
x1.5 = 14M
x1.5 = 21M


So, it takes 15 layers of management in order to get from a preposterously high 'worker' wage (by that I mean, I doubt this is anywhere near the average wage of the average non-manager worker) in these huge corporations. I also doubt the salary bands are as large as a 1.5 multiple. Even if they were 15 layers of management is obsurd. NATO military officer ranks don't contain that many grades, and the military is far from an example of a lean organization.

The U.S. Military pay grade system does indeed contain more levels (if you include Warrant Officers and Enlisted ratings, there's 24 grades), but still comes nowhere near the executive level pay. In fact it would take more than 10 (ten) further military pay grades to come anywhere near the 20+ Million per year that these guys are receiving. Can you imagine having almost 40 layers of management between a worker and the CEO !!!

Of course not, no company could survive with that kind of idiocy, but the CEO's of these companies would like us to believe that they are worth compensation at that level. It's simply theft. And the truth is, it's theft from the shareholder. You know, the people that actually OWN the company ! You'd think they'd be more concerned about it, but they're not.

Re:What a bunch of geniuses, durr.

[maxume]

You are drunk on stupid. Fantastic drugs (aspirin, ibuprofen, loratadine, Diphendydramine, etc.) are available for anyone to buy, for peanuts (an hours wages buy's a months supply of most of those) and Walmart gives many antibiotics away for free, if you have a prescription.

There is plenty of room for improvement in pricing, but your characterization of the situation is hilarious.

Re:What a bunch of geniuses, durr.

[mpe]

Almost any medical device or drug can be made dirt cheap if you throw enough safety considerations out of the window.

It's also likely to depend on exactly what those "safety" considerations are.

Or do these guys want to tell me that those $1000 also include R&D (just how many hours did they spend designing it?), biocompatibility testing (I don't think most materials used in cars undergo this by default)

Yet cars are typically sold with the idea of transporting humans.

electrical/mechanical/chemical hazard analysis, etc.

It isn't unknown for "hazard analysis" in the "first world" to be over concerned with all sorts of "freak acident" possibilities, sometimes to the point of overlooking actual risks.

Re:What a bunch of geniuses, durr.

[Ihlosi]

It's also likely to depend on exactly what those "safety" considerations are.

A fairly nebulous statement. If you have any concrete arguments, I'd be happy to read them.

Yet cars are typically sold with the idea of transporting humans.

They're sold with the idea of _transporting_ _adults_. They're not sold with the idea of being in contact with premature neonates for extended time or even with the idea of being sterilized occasionally. What point are you trying to make?

t isn't unknown for "hazard analysis" in the "first world" to be over concerned with all sorts of "freak acident" possibilities, sometimes to the point of overlooking actual risks.

Another nebulous statement. With the contraption from the article, I'd have quite a list of possible hazards that need to be excluded. From burn and electrical hazards to simple things like proper sterilization.

Re:What a bunch of geniuses, durr.

[Arcane_Rhino]

And the truth is, it's theft from the shareholder. You know, the people that actually OWN the company ! You'd think they'd be more concerned about it, but they're not.

True. Relatively few shareholders, however, care that they own (a piece of) a company. Most are stock speculators that only care about the value of the stock relative to yesterday (or tomorrow), not the value of the stock relative to the value of the company. How, for example, the big three US automotive companies have not been trading for pennies for years is beyond me.

Additionally, those few who do care about the company are often not in a position to influence CEO compensation. The fact that I won't invest in ABC company because the CEO is overcompensated or may withdraw my 500 (of 50,000,000) shares if the CEO becomes overcompensated isn't even noted. If Mr. Buffet indicates he is unhappy with a CEO's compensation, however, I suspect that has a little more traction. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of Mr. Buffets and collective actions by shareholders are about as effective as collective actions by any group of people with disparate interests.

Re:What a bunch of geniuses, durr.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Let's assume that each level of management entitles a person to 1.5 times the previous wage"

So what if we assume it doesn't?

Supplier?

[pilsner.urquell]

Now, where those new (OEM) parts, third party parts or did they go to the local junk yard to get parts?

No more lame excuses to the state troopers...

[Vexler]

[From a courtroom transcript]

Prosecutor: So according to your earlier testimony, the defendents were travelling in the breakdown lane at a high rate of speed. Am I correct?

Trooper: Yes, that's correct.

Prosecutor: So what happened when you pull them over and approached the operator of the vehicle?

Trooper: The male defendent stated that the female defendent was his wife, and that she was going into labor. I offered to help them after I issued their citation, but they refused.

Prosecutor: They refused? How?

Trooper: I read it on Slashdot about a way to rebuild autoparts into a neonatal unit, and since the defendents were driving a 4Runner I thought I could help them out so they wouldn't continue to break the law.

Prosecutor: So what happened then?

Trooper: They thought I was too smart to be a state trooper, so they both burst out laughing and said that I should get a real job. Then they continued down the breakdown lane at a high rate of speed. That's when I called for backup.

Incubator is very cool stuff LOL, but

[digimedia1742]

How about Scientists now building BIONIC HUMANS: http://www.95news.com/bionic-humans-top-10-technologies/

I know this guy

[Bromskloss]

who is an uncurable petrolhead. It's like he was born in the engine compartment of an automobile.

Dear God

[RMH101]

...and this is modified +5? I hope you've elected to avoid any form of surgery or medical attention in your country should you need it, to be even-handed.
I fail to see how making incubators cheaper/more prevalent can be seen as anything other than a good thing. Following your line of logic it'd seem the logical extreme would be bombing continents for the good of the "civilised" western world...

Re:Dear God

[Simonetta]

Following your line of logic it'd seem the logical extreme would be bombing continents for the good of the "civilised" western world... ..and you live very comfortably in a country that has 10,000 hydrogen bombs... for peaceful purposes.

Re:Dear God

[gregbot9000]

Was that supposed to be sarcastic? cause it just sounded kind of dumb. I live very comfortably in a nation with the capacity to destroy the earth. It's this capacity that has brought us the longest era of peace in the history of Earth. I guess you think it was better when nations engaged in wholesale slaughter with tanks, bombs and guns, rather than live in peace under the threat of nuclear annihilation? If their was no bomb do you really think the USSR would have been content with just eastern Europe?

Where does the power come from?

[houghi]

The power could be generated by using humans as an energy source like in The Matrix.

insurance

[Anne Thwacks]

but the incubator they have developed can be built for less than $1,000

Until you include the insurance against being sued. In America anything medical has to be insured against enormous law suits. It s unrelated to the risk of causing damage to pateints. It is very closely related to the potential profit from lawyers.

And the FA approval orocess could reasonably be expted to add $1,000,000 to the cost of each unit if you are not careful.

Re:insurance

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would they even think of using this in America?

Re:insurance

[Thelasko]

Mod Parent Up!

When I was in engineering school, my manufacturing professor held up two screws. Both screws were nearly identical, except one was for orthopedic surgery and the other was not. He told us the orthopedic screw cost 100 times what the other screw cost, and asked us to come up with reasons why. Most peoples said things like quality control, tighter tolerances, different materials, or cleanliness specs. The correct answer was insurance.

Next time you take your pet to the animal hospital, look at the prices, then look at the prices at a human hospital. In most cases the treatments are exactly the same. The products probably come from the same factory, the products designed for humans just cost ten to twenty times more. (animal care products have insurance costs too, just not as much.)

Re:insurance

[demonlapin]

If it only cost 100 times as much, I'd be surprised.

the probable cost of product liability insurance

[DotDotSlashDot]

$45,000 per unit

I think I saw this on TV once

[davidbrit2]

It was on an episode of Red Green. Pretty good one, too.

Safety Features --- Cost

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason why conventional medical kit is so expensive is because of the mid-boggling level of safety that must be designed in and tested in every posible combination of fault scenarios.

How does this contraption fare in that respect? Reliability of car headlights, fans relays etc? Abysmal compared wuith ordinary industrial standards, let alone safety-critical medical kit.

I'd heard it was quite tough in the USA...

[fantomas]

I'd heard teaching birth control in countries with strong Christian cultures like the USA is tough is as well...

Re:I'd heard it was quite tough in the USA...

[Asic Eng]

Furthermore - Christian cultures hamper usage of birth control in Africa, too. Rather than preventing ways to decrease infant mortality, I think the ethical way to contribute to population control is to stop religious fundamentalism from interfering with development aid. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/newsroom/press-releases/bush-administration-withholds-africa-22494.htm

Re:I'd heard it was quite tough in the USA...

[not-my-real-name]

Except that the Bible says nothing about birth control. It does say a few things about avoiding adultery and not having sex with your sibling. In fact Paul even says that husbands and wives should not withhold sex from each other (I Cor 7:5). The reason given is avoiding temptation (presumably for adultery), not procreation.

Re:I'd heard it was quite tough in the USA...

[j-pimp]

Except that the Bible says nothing about birth control.

Ok, and the constitution says I can own a handgun (I know it doesn't say that exactly). Mayor Bloomberg and the NYPD have different opinions though. Also, your argument only applies to Christian sects that believe in sola scripture.

Re:I'd heard it was quite tough in the USA...

[not-my-real-name]

I am a protestant and fiercely proud of it.

Re:I'd heard it was quite tough in the USA...

[Asic Eng]

Except that the Bible says nothing about birth control.

Christian fundamentalists do, however. I can't really comment on whether that's theologically correct or not - I don't have sufficient knowledge or interest there. It is morally wrong though, because of the proven uselessness of teaching "abstinence only" and of the harm and suffering which results. Now I realize that "Christian fundamentalist" is hardly a well-defined term, so to clarify: I know many Christians oppose this policy too, and I applaud them.

Re:I'd heard it was quite tough in the USA...

[j-pimp]

I am a protestant and fiercely proud of it.

Congratulation. I am a Catholic. The point is, that Christians as a whole are not against birth control. There are Christians (including protestants) that are against the birth control pill that believe it is abortion. One can argue internally with ones fellow protestants that their stance on abortion is not intellectually honest. However, from the outside looking in, non christians see the current working beliefs of christian policy makers leading to reduced use of birth control in third world countries regardless of what the bible says.

Just what we need

[DaveV1.0]

More people, especially children, living in poverty stricken countries. And, more reasons for those fake charities to beg for money.

Kris Olson

[Invicta{HOG}]

This is pretty cool - I remember when Kris Olson started talking about this project (he was one of my attendings at MGH). In any event, it's good to see that they have reached their goal. Having spent time in Africa where there's no shortage of newly donated equipment but a dearth of people to fix broken equipment, this should be a huge deal.

Junkyard Wars

[Joseph Hayes]

Sounds to me like the challenge for a really fucked up episode of Junkyard Wars

It's worth it though

[Anonymous Coward]

Our son was born premature. He had to be put in one of these incubators made of car parts for three months.

We added headers, a bigger cam, and switched to an Edelbrock fuel injection system for the incubator. Now he is an all star player in the NFL, NHL, MLB and NBA!

Talk to the chicken farmers

[sunking2]

I bet they spend a heck of alot less to build their units. How much can a heat lamp and thermostat cost.

liability insurance

[Anonymous Coward]

liability insurance is the big expense in mfg any medical equipment. That's the major reason for the $40k unit

Re:liability insurance

[Lershac]

THIS is the real reason why this article is meaningless

Re:liability insurance

[Hognoxious]

Yes, but regular medical equipment is made by corporations! And we all know corporations are BAD!

5W-40 standard and 10W30 premature options...

[SrWebDeveloper]

And the feeder tube comes in two options: 5W-40 for the healthy newborns and of course 10W-30 synthetic with the special anti-wear technology for the premies.

idiotic approach

[drolli]

let's see what makes medical equipment expensive -using defined processes for everything. -using quality control everywhere -getting the approvals/certifications/etc. Cut all this and your incubator is nothing else than an temperatur and humidity controlled box supplied by clean (=filtered) air. You can get that for less than 1000 dollar if you manufacture it in China (and it will still be an order of magnitude more safe than any solution involving used part or parts not designed for the purpose).

Just what the world needs...

[Simonetta]

Just what the world needs...more babies born to people living on $1 a day, and growing up to be cannon fodder for terrorist religious fanatics.

    Now before you call me a fascist and a racist and a sexist and a whatever-the-fuck-ist, please do consider that the population growth curve is approaching vertical. And we are beginning to enter the phase of history that Malthus predicted (after a long delay for technological development) where there would be exponential population growth and linear growth of the resources needed to sustain all these people.

    In other words, we don't need all the people that would be 'saved' by building incubators from junk automobile parts. It's cruel, yes, I know. But that's why Allah put white people on the earth, to make the cruel decisions necessary for the survival of the species, so you don't have to.

Re:Just what the world needs...

[Firethorn]

Now before you call me a fascist and a racist and a sexist and a whatever-the-fuck-ist, please do consider that the population growth curve is approaching vertical

Actually it's not. History is showing that the trend is quite different. You normally see a baby boom almost identical the the USA's as a country industrializes, as technology allows vast gains in infant survival rates, then the birth rate crashes within a couple generations to sustainment or even below.

First world countries have more trouble with not enough births to maintain population than too many.

Why Not Strive For Both?

[EXTomar]

Parent is right but its a little to late to discuss that when the child is already there. And not to mention the cost of health service and insurance "quirks" may make it unaffordable to some anyway.

Why not get the best of all worlds? It is possible to strive for better, cheaper prenatal care and better, cheaper incubators.

Government as usual, rather.

[HBI]

The government is only good at making repetitive processes function. Unfortunately, they gild the lily of these repetitive processes over time, increasing the cost and time required.

Some things that have been tried are creating a new agency and abolishing the old one, to streamline the process. This has a limited effect as those hired by the new agency are often the same faces as at the old. The only way to reduce cost and streamline the process would be to privatize it, but the inevitable corruption in this approach would show forth the futility of the entire process.

Mind you, none of this increases safety. This mostly increases perceived safety, and is analogous to the security theater in US airports in this regard. But people are always asking government for things government cannot do, such as assuring safety.

Trade-offs

[maz2331]

Sometimes the trade-off between "crude and mostly works", "works every time perfectly" and "don't have the damn thing at all" has to be made.

Where resources are scant, you do the best effort to get something, even if it's somewhat sub-optimal. At least then there's a chance of helping someone who is almost certain to die.

If the choice is no care and death, or crappy care and a chance, most people will take crappy care.

"A" for effort, "F" for execution

[NoleusMaximus]

Sorry but this particular application fails the sniff test. Let me start by saying that I really wanted to be encouraging about this. The use of recycled auto parts to save infant lives is a truely noble gesture. Unfortunately the way the lives are saved may just be by ruining them. There may be a way to sterilyze the parts used without causing rust, oxidation, or corrosion but keeping them sterile would be a monumental if not impossible task. The second and more serious problem is that the method of warming the infants-pointing a car headlight at them is like stabbing them in the eyes. Neonates have undeveloped eyes that cannot regulate the amount of light that hit their retinas. They would be better off in complete darkness than a bright light on them. Their ears have a similar problem. They need silence to be able to develop smoothly and the open nature of the "junkyard" incubator does nothing to help this issue.

Nanny states and car confiscations...

[Firethorn]

your car wasn't worth much anyway it might not be worth it.

There was an article in a paper a while back where the police mentioned they'd confiscated like seven cars from this one dude - he had basically a lifetime revokation for DUIs, and they'd take his car whenever they caught him(usuaully drunk). He'd just go out and buy another cheap sub-$500 car - cheaper than impound fees and such. Part of the article was, of course, outrage over why the guy wasn't in prison.

Personally, call me old fashioned but I think that car confiscations, even/especially for drug stuff should be handled through the courts. Confiscations, period, for that matter.

Technology, or QoL/education?

[Firethorn]

True, but when higher technology is actually available, the birth rate drops. This has held true for about 1/3 of the earths population across several cultures.

I'd argue that it's more due to quality of life improvements and education, but technology largely allows them, so it's a bit of a moot point.

Car parts - cheap!

[Firethorn]

I thought the point of using car parts is that they are cheap, easily available, and run on 12 volts

The thousand dollars quote leads me to believe that you're right - it wouldn't be even a grand if you're taking parts out of a junk yard, but who wants to do that? I figure that these incubators are using new parts, just ones from the automotive industry and not the medical industry for economy of scale and robustness. Though, yes, the ability to use junkyard parts for repairs is mentioned.

For example, most headlights are under $20, so that's only $40 for your heat source. 12V cabling is relatively cheap, there's various thermostats you can get. They're vibration resistant, and a AC-DC transformer will provide a good amount of protection from surges, especially if you put a car battery in the circuit to provide backup. Automotive fuses can provide safety and prevent damage. For that matter, car equipment is designed to take anything from like 12V to 14.4-15V, so it's robust from that angle as well.

The article mentions detractors that say that intervention, skilled delivery people, emergency care would be better. I'd argue that those would cost more - importing a western trained doctor is expensive. Low-hanging fruit, people. One step at a time. Incremental improvement.

Heck, if it's good enough, I'd like to see them in our hospitals. Perhaps a fancier, more expensive model, but still cheap compared to current ones. Look at our healthcare costs. How much money would be saved if we could get, instead of a $40k incubator, a $5k incubator instead? Figure a thousand incubators a state per year(50k total), that'd be $1.75 BILLON saved. Not including any maintenance savings, given that current incubators are maintenance hogs per the article, and I didn't see any mention of parts that you'd expect to replace any given year with the auto one. Sure, not much against the trillions we spend now - but as they say, a billion here and there, and suddenly you're looking at real money. ;)

Tinker toys

[solweil]

Like the computer made from tinker-toys that plays tic-tac-toe? http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~cfs/472_html/Intro/TinkertoyComputer/TinkerToy.html

your underground health movement

[solweil]

would do well to use the wikileaks or thepiratebay as examples of avoiding concerted legal attacks from multiple jurisdictions

Phrased differently...

[Firethorn]

What if they phrased it a bit differently?

Sir, you have the choice between this $40k rube goldberg incubator that fails, on average, every other week or whenever the power goes a bit wonky, and our nurses can't operate correctly because we can't find the manual, or this one built out of commodity parts with a MTBF of 40k hours that can be serviced by the guy who also works on our ambulances? By the way, it only cost us $5k*, so we'll give you a cut on your bill if you pick that one.

*I figure we'd still get a fancy one, so I upped the price a bit.

Re:Phrased differently...

[Ihlosi]

Sir, you have the choice between this $40k rube goldberg incubator that fails, on average, every other week or whenever the power goes a bit wonky, and our nurses can't operate correctly because we can't find the manual, or this one built out of commodity parts with a MTBF of 40k hours that can be serviced by the guy who also works on our ambulances?

So how are the nurses going to operate this one without training or manuals? Not to mention the sheer nightmare of things built out of random parts .... every unit is unique.

Re:Phrased differently...

[Firethorn]

So how are the nurses going to operate this one without training or manuals? Not to mention the sheer nightmare of things built out of random parts .... every unit is unique.

Except they're not built out of random parts. The prototype was built out of entirely 4Runner* parts from the sounds of it. Presumably the factory building cheap incubators would build them in a standardized way. Best way to keep costs down anyways. They'd only become bastardized out in the field, presumably after their users have become familiar with the operation.

And, coming directly from the factory to the 3rd world medical facilities, presumably the manual wouldn't have been lost or not delivered, like the expensive, donated, used incubator.

*From the article. Presumably a production unit might use different parts.

Talking about the US medical industry

[hellfire]

The US medical industry is all about litigation

There, fixed it for you.

You make all very good points, but just wanted to point out that your comments apply primarily to the US (don't have any idea how they would apply in Europe). In many places in Africa, just send your old car parts to them and I'm sure they'll trade a near definite chance of dying for a somewhat lower chance of dying.

Premature births and young mothers...

[Firethorn]

I'm suggesting that they are a high risk group that could be encouraged to delay having children until a time when there is less apparent risk.

Given the research I've seen, we already delay childbirth more than necessary, proper pre-natal care is more important today than delaying pregnancy. From what I've read, 16-18 for the age of the mother is also the category with the least number of problems, given proper care.

Re:Premature births and young mothers...

[scorp1us]

Um I heard completely different.

Lets start with prenatal care. I heard zero (0) gain - from a Hopkins Ph.D.

Also, the last chart I saw on least number of problems was at age 14, with excellent rates until about 22, where it begins to climb appreciably, then takes off in late 30s to 40s. Which may very well match your data, but the incredibly low rate at 14 was very surprising to myself and I would have though you'd mention it if you saw it.

Just some more data... Their could be geographical bias in those numbers.

Re:Premature births and young mothers...

[Firethorn]

Call it political correctness... I almost put in 14 as the number, but reconsidered. Didn't want to say I want 14 year olds to be having kids.

Thus the 16 number.

Then again, I've considered before a society where people have their kids young, but have grandparents take care of them.

Consider, people having kids at 14-16, their parents will be 28-32, easily ready to take care of the children. I'd tend to place the deliminter where the grandparents stop taking over around 20-21.

Re:Premature births and young mothers...

[scorp1us]

This scares me... when politics modifies actual scientific data. You, as a scientist or statistician (in /some/ capacity) have an obligation to the data. Society based of flawed data will itself be flawed. Having crazy young girls at 14 birthing kids has ramifications for families, for health care providers, for schools.

Your duty is to the data.

Re:Premature births and young mothers...

[Firethorn]

Fortunately I'm neither scientist nor professional statistician. I'm a multipurpose computer guy, specializing in security at the moment. I'm just generally good with numbers and tend to remember stuff.

And if I'd put it as 14 I'd have probably gotten jumped at for that one. I just can't win. :(

As you said - problems increase in frequency as the mother gets older. There's some research that older fathers increase certain problems, but not as much.

Fine. Going by PURE physical statistics - incidents of birth defects, complications with the pregnancy, etc... The younger the mother, the better, as long as she's properly past puberty. In the USA, this is around 14 today.

Going by society, well, the increase in problems in the 20-25 age category is probably outweighed at this time by the increases in responsibility and family stability/maturity. Thus my suggestion of having the grandparents doing the raising.

Re:Premature births and young mothers...

[maxume]

I was actually thinking more about the portion of babies that are unintentional (and perhaps the additional portion that are intentional but represent poor economic choices) than I was thinking about maximizing the number of full term babies. I'm presuming that many of the babies born to young mothers are indeed unintentional, but I'm sure that many of the intentional babies are not well thought out.

My thought was that the babies not born don't really represent a cost to the mother (because it wasn't something she desired or planned), so it sets aside a bunch of thorny issues regarding society dictating individual behavior, and handing out millions of condoms costs about as much as the care for 1 extreme high risk premature baby...

Re:Premature births and young mothers...

[RockDoctor]

Having crazy young girls at 14 birthing kids has ramifications for families, for health care providers, for schools.

Just as a sanity check - if Juliet and Romeo had chosen Life not Drugs (of the 'suicidal overdose' variety), got their families permissions, got married in the manner approved of by their Church and State, and she'd fallen pregnant in their first month of fucking ... she'd have given birth in the 3rd quarter of her 14th year, allowing a couple of weeks for uncertainty about the exact dates.
There are real problems about honestly using Bill the Shake for teaching English literature in some school environments.

The present-day mores and laws surrounding age of legal consent are just another set of mores, with all the logic one would expect. Biology, in a world brutally well aware of the likelihood of starvation, childbed fever, and the genetic death sentence that dieing childless is, makes it's own opinion on the appropriate age for human females to start breeding, and it makes that opinion abundantly obvious through patent menarche.

FWIW, in some western countries, Juliet would have been behaving within the law, and in others she'd have been exposing herself and Romeo to jail and a life on a register as a sex offender.

Bog, am I glad that's all someone else's problem.

not the problem

[bugs2squash]

OK - so there are too few incubators available in developing nations. I bet doctors there know that

OK - so you can build an incubator out of a wide range of materials. I bet local people in developing nations are smart enough to figure that out, maybe even have a few improvements of their own to offer.

Having a government that would allow anything like this to actually come to pass. Now there's a problem...

As a devil's advocate stance, how about we abandon all aid of any description and focus simply on educating people with the hope of getting them to elect competent, open governments within the next 30 years and helping them to take control of their own fertility, give them options for living into old age that don't rely on having 20 children.

What can we do to help make that happen ?

Almost had it

[Tablizer]

No wonder our company bellied up: we built cars out of incubator parts.
         

$1,000 for the parts, $39,000 for the lawyers

[argent]

Back in the '80s the company I was working for investigated making a similar product, a neonatal phototherapy unit. While the product could have been made more cheaply than the competition, the necessary regulatory approvals, safety tests, and other red tape would have pushed the price up far enough that the savings in materials wouldn't have mattered... and the competing product had already passed all of that and was on the market.

McGyver Tech

[Richter X]

No McGyver tag for this one?

1.8 million - a luxury the planet cannot afford

[Anonymous Coward]

...1.8 million infants might be spared every year if they could spend just a week in the units....

1.8 million more humans to act as force multipliers for continued global warming. If you are serious about reducing human contribution to global warming then stop creating humans. Seventy years or so and the human contribution to global warming will be about zero.

Harsh? Maybe. But it's the reality nobody seems to want to talk about.