All of Vietnam's Government Computers To Use Linux, By Fiat

christian.einfeldt writes "The Vietnamese Ministry of Information and Communications has issued an administrative ruling increasing the use of Free Open Source Software products at state agencies, increasing the software's use both in the back office and on the desktop. According to the new rule, 100% of government servers must run Linux by June 30, 2009, and 70% of agencies must use OpenOffice.org, Mozilla Firefox, and Mozilla Thunderbird by the end of 2009. The regulation also sets benchmarks for training and proficiency in the software. Vietnam has a population of 86 million, 4 million larger than that of Germany, and is one of the world's fastest-growing economies."

Comments

Fiat?

[Rombuu]

Man, I don't know.. they make some pretty crappy cars, I'm not sure I'd trust them to make a decent operating system distribution.

Re:Fiat?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fiat also means: decree: a legally binding command or decision entered on the court record (as if issued by a court or judge);

Re:Fiat?

[Anonymous Coward]

And Fiat is made in Italy, not Vietnam. /I personally like Fiat, especially the Spyders and such.

Re:Fiat?

[mcgrew]

We Only Organize Special Heads

Re:Fiat?

[ciaohound]

When Fiats were sold in the US (i.e., the 70's and 80's), the joke was that Fiat stood for "Fix It Again, Tony." Even by American car standards, they were pretty unreliable, and rust-prone, and you couldn't get a decent wiring diagram to save your life.

The quality has improved, and the new Cinquecento, which was like the Italian Mini Cooper, may even be imported to the States.
Even so, I can't resist offering my favorite anti-Italian-quality acronym, for Alitalia: Always Late In Take-off, Always Late in Arrival.

Re:Fiat?

[Klaus_1250]

that beats azian cars! Problem is: they do not exist...

Shouldn't that be Japanese cars? Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Mazda, Mitsubishi are all Japanese. And German cars come pretty close. BMW, Audi, Volkswagen, Mercedes all make petty reliable cars.

Re:Fiat?

[pmbasehore]

that beats azian cars! Problem is: they do not exist...

Shouldn't that be Japanese cars? Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Mazda, Mitsubishi are all Japanese. And German cars come pretty close. BMW, Audi, Volkswagen, Mercedes all make petty reliable cars.

You forgot Isuzu.

Asian (Non-Japanese) cars, like Kia, Fuqi, Hyundai, Nanjing, Deely, and DengFeng are, for the most part, fairly unreliable.

Japanese cars != Asian cars.

Re:Fiat?

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Fiat also means: decree: a legally binding command or decision entered on the court record (as if issued by a court or judge);

Fiat also means:

• Fix It Again, Tony.
• Fucking Italian Automotive Trash.

Ford means:

• Found On Road Dead
• Fix Or Repair Daily

Vietnam has a population of 86 million, 4 million larger than that of Germany, and is one of the world's fastest-growing economies.

So what the hell does that quote supposed to mean? Compared to the populations and economies of China or India, the rest of the world is chump change.

Or will my next Porsche be a Viet-Porsche?

Re:Fiat?

[piltdownman84]

Man, I don't know.. they make some pretty crappy cars, I'm not sure I'd trust them to make a decent operating system distribution

Really? From everything I have read the Fiat 500 is an amazing car. It was rumored to be launches in America this year, I wonder if the credit crunch will hurt or help that. If it is released in Canada there is a good chance it will be my next car.

Re:Fiat?

[Klaus_1250]

I might have forgotten Daihatsu and Subaru as well. But for all three, I can't say anything about their reliability. Couls be good, by I know the previous ones as leaders in reliability.

Re:Fiat?

[fm6]

You're either a humorless nitpicker or a karma whore. And since ACs don't get karma...

Re:Fiat?

[CodeBuster]

So as to compel one to buy one of their cars...

Re:Fiat?

[Amazing Quantum Man]

Ford fanbois claim: First On Race Day.

Disclaimer: I am not a Ford fanboi.

Re:Fiat?

[Amazing Quantum Man]

Used to drive a Fiat 128. I think it was a '75. The clutch cable was routed so that it rubbed up against something. I always had like three spares sitting in my trunk (after I learned how to change them).

I was on a date in high school (before I knew how to change the clutch cable), and broke the cable. I then proceeded to strip second gear trying to force it into gear.

It eventually threw a rod on the 101 in Encino.

Re:Fiat?

[Sporkinum]

The Cinquecento if it really was a Cinquecento, would be cool. Doesn't this Cinquecento have a 1 liter engine making it a Fiat Mille?

Re:Fiat?

[Darby]

I always heard it was:
Fucked Over Rebuilt Dodge

Re:Fiat?

[wumingzi]

#include <truestory.h>
I was in Turin over Christmas visiting some relatives by marriage.

One of the relatives at Christmas dinner was a retired Fiat engineer.

He told a story once about working on a seatbelt design. He sat at his drafting table for days. Nothing. The design eluded him.

Finally, after five days of designer's block, he went home, plodded down to the basement, pulled out the 5 gallon demijohn of wine which is standard equipment in any well-appointed household in Italy, and poured a glass. Then another. And another. Pleasantly buzzed proceeded quickly to plowed and then straight to s-faced.

Deep into his cups, the design for the seatbelt came at last. He napkin-sketched the design and drew it out in full the next day at work.

Having heard this story related to me, I was Enlightened.

Re:Fiat?

[gooman]

Hey.
My first car was a Fiat. 850 Spider to be exact.
Ran great... As long as I did something to it every week. Something. Never sure what, but something. Yep, ran great, as long as I fixed whatever was broken or breaking. Yep, every week. That car taught me how much I hate working under the hood. But when it was running and I put the top down, all was forgiven. As long as I fixed something every week. Yep, every week. Miserable car, sometimes I miss it (what is wrong with me).

Re:Fiat?

[Lemmy Caution]

Hey.
My first car was a Fiat. 850 Spider to be exact.
Ran great... As long as I did something to it every week. Something. Never sure what, but something. Yep, ran great, as long as I fixed whatever was broken or breaking. Yep, every week. That car taught me how much I hate working under the hood. But when it was running and I put the top down, all was forgiven. As long as I fixed something every week. Yep, every week. Miserable car, sometimes I miss it (what is wrong with me).

That was exactly my experience running Debian Unstable in the late 1990s.

Re:Fiat?

[plover]

"rust-prone" is a damned polite turn of phrase for those iron oxide oxen.

The passenger floor rusted completely out of my cousin's Fiat. Completely. To sit in the passenger seat meant to straddle a large hole through which I could look down and see road passing beneath my feet. On the rare days it was running, I could have put both feet through the hole and used the Fred Flintstone brakes!

One day he sanded down the bigger cancer patches from the fenders, doors, hood and roof, then spraybombed the entire car with gloss white Rustoleum. It made a nice difference, as long as you were further than 50 feet from the car.

Yay, Fiat!

Re:Fiat?

[tsuki.kodomo]

Man, I don't know.. they make some pretty crappy cars, I'm not sure I'd trust them to make a decent operating system distribution.

Dude, it says "use" not "make" anyways, i think it's a great idea...more secure and supported.

Re:Fiat?

[Dishevel]

Actually Hyundai has been doing really well. Those Koreans still really hate the Japanese.

Re:Fiat?

[tehcyder]

I'm glad you completely overlooked the possibility that the GP might have making a joke, excellent work.

Re:Fiat?

[Jawn98685]

Fiat also means: decree: a legally binding command or decision entered on the court record (as if issued by a court or judge);

No! Really? Now I understand the parent post. It was a joke, a witty play on words deliberately juxtaposing into this context an almost non-sensical definition of the word "fiat".

Boy, you slashdotters... You don't miss a trick, I tell you what.

Re:Fiat?

[oatworm]

Did we just get autokoaned? Or, if you prefer, autokowned?

Re:Fiat?

[oatworm]

Probably around the same time it became a series of islands, so, what, late Cretaceous?

Re:Fiat?

[oatworm]

Ironically, the Chevette was a rebadged Opel.

hooray!

[larry bagina]

It's time to take the FREEdom out of FREE software!

Re:hooray!

[Tubal-Cain]

The government is demanding open source software be installed on government agency computers. Nothing wrong with that.

Re:hooray!

[TheRaven64]

No, but there is something wrong with requiring Linux. There are other open source operating systems, and some are better for some tasks than Linux. Treating Linux as a one-size-fits-all solution is almost as bad as doing the same with Windows.

Re:hooray!

[maddskillz]

But there is also something wrong with trying to support different operating systems and different office productivity suites.

Re:hooray!

[bigstrat2003]

I disagree. It's not strictly wrong, but it certainly is a slap in the face to the ideals that the OSS community seeks to champion. The community advocates choice: individual departments, at the least (individual user choice would be ideal, but impractical), should be able to choose what works best from them.

Also, there's a great deal of humor value in having "free" and "by fiat" together in the same statement. Nothing wrong with recognizing the hilarity!

Re:hooray!

[Hurricane78]

Don't worry. To the officials, it's "this Linux thing" if it's not Windows and not MacOS X.

And the ability to fit into everything is, I think, the point of Linux: The freedom to change it to your needs goes so far today, that Linux runs on the smallest handhelds and appliances, and on the biggest servers and supercomputers. In some way, there is no "Linux". There is just a set of kernels, userland toolkits, GUI desktops, and so on. Combined, they result in some Linux or BSD distribution... or something in between, or something different (like MacOS X).

Windows on the other hand, is rigid.

Please hand in your geek card, for not knowing this. ;)

Re:hooray!

[hvm2hvm]

They had to choose one in the end anyway and at this point I think a simple coin toss (with like 15 faces) would have been as good a judgement as any other. I know OSS gives you the possibility to make anything work with anything but sometimes sticking with one solution will help a lot: only one type of IT support needed, people have to adjust to only one system, etc.

Re:hooray!

[Grishnakh]

Wrong. The government of any country has the right to determine what products (e.g. software) it wants to use. OSS ideals and philosophy do not extend inside organizations; I've never heard OSS champions running around screaming that different departments inside a corporation should have any freedom in choosing software. Governments and companies are led from the top; if the people at the top make a blanket decision, that's their right. OSS people are worried about the rights of users. "Users" means either individuals with their own private equipment, or for governments and companies, those organizations as singular beings. If you don't like the software your employer requires you to use, then you should find a new job.

Re:hooray!

[bigstrat2003]

You'll notice I said "It's not strictly wrong...". I agree that it's their right, but I still think it's shitty of them to not let their departments choose. Different departments are going to have very different needs.

Re:hooray!

[Grishnakh]

That's something that's up to the organization, and not something that's the business of anyone outside the organization, just like what goes on inside my home (as long as it's not completely illegal) is no one else's business.

Of course, it's generally better if companies (and governments) make better decisions about how to run themselves internally, but what's "better" is really up to each company. It might make more sense to allow departments freedom in choosing their tools, but on the other hand, you might get too much chaos and too many bad choices: why does a single company need to use 20 different version-control systems, for instance? Remember, in most companies, these different departments all rely on the IT department to support them. Why should a department get both 1) to choose whatever tool it wants to use (a choice that may be motivated by something other than technical merit, such as kickbacks from a vendor or salesperson), and 2) require that the IT department reconfigure itself to support that tool? In many companies, certain choices about software tools are decreed by IT precisely because of this. Sometimes, departments are allowed to make other choices, but then they get zero support from IT on it.

Again, it all boils down to: it's up to each organization how it wants to do things internally. It's not really for people outside to say.

Re:hooray!

[mspohr]

My employer (8000 employees) mandates Windows servers and Windows desktops and crappy Outlook email. I wish it were otherwise but I can still get my work done. I don't work in IT so it's not my problem to keep it all running.

Re:hooray!

[bigstrat2003]

At no point did I say anything that contradicts any of this. "They shouldn't do that" does not equate to "Holy fuck, let's force them to stop doing that!".

Re:hooray!

[Smauler]

My take home pay is about 1000ukp/month, and that's not minimum wage by any means. Microsoft Windows is about 200ukp from shops here. The proportions are about the same.

Re:hooray!

[Smauler]

These are governmental departments. They should be working to open standards. They have a _duty_ to not use closed standards that require their citizens to pay a company half way around the world some fee just to read.

Re:hooray!

[donscarletti]

but I still think it's shitty of them to not let their departments choose. Different departments are going to have very different needs.

OK, I'm not sure what special requirements different government departments have but I'm pretty positive that they are all quite similar. Each bureaucrat has a computer which they use to make documents on, documents are sent between them and kept on a central server. Department keeps a database with all the government type info on it as well as internal administrative stuff.

It's a shallow analysis of course, but my point is that they are not producing embedded systems, they are not editing or streaming media, they do not have hard realtime limits such as in flight control systems or medial systems, they are pushing paper and they want something simple and universal to do this while being free and open. The other alternatives are the BSDs (similar to Linux but with even less focus on the desktop), ReactOS (a much less stable version of Windows), Haiku (unusably unstable), Darwin (BSD with no desktop). Why exactly should a government department be considering using any of these for use outside some incredibly specialized applications that probably come outside of this mandate anyway?

Re:hooray!

[Prien715]

Linix is like car. There's all different type of cars, but you wouldn't take a car to go to the moon. (Yay car analogy!)

Similarly, can you name anyone who uses Linux for professional photography editing? Eh? I mean, the GIMP is nice, but it's no photoshop.

The GP's right...best tool should be used for the job regardless of how it's developed and anything else forces software down people's throats -- how is that free? At the same time, the free is working together to make their software the best so there can be another coup like IE to FireFox, which happened because Mozilla decided to stop sucking (I say this as a former Mozilla user...firefox is 10x better!)

Re:hooray!

[Tubal-Cain]

Not really. Government, communist or not, can dictate whatever it wants regarding it's own computers. It's when it starts dictating the OS used by private citizen that I have a problem.

Re:hooray!

[HiThere]

Sorry, but there are actually reasons why, e.g., art departments traditionally use Macs. Doesn't mean that you can't use anything else, but there are reasons.

OTOH, there are companies that prescribe that even the art departments use MSWind. Their prerogative.

I think that Vietnam will find that some of their departments are less efficient using Linux. Most may well be better, but some will be less efficient. Others will require more expensive software to properly do their job under Linux (and may require particular distributions for the necessary software to be supported). But by and large I think that it's a reasonable and justifiable decision. They just ought to allow justified exceptions. (But again, that's an efficiency consideration.)

On the average, though, I believe that using open standards will pay off in only a very few years. Given that, Linux is a reasonable standard. Having a single supported OS should act to minimize support costs, since it's one that can actually *BE* supported. BSD would have been another choice, but it has less end-user support, while Linux has a great deal of server support. And there are other choices that would have been plausible...but none of them have the support of either Linux or BSD. (I really can't consider MSWind as acceptable to anyone who actually reads their EULA. Unfortunately, the same has recently become true of the Mac. I think I've bought my last Apple product.)

So given that they have decided to standardize, to my mind Linux is a reasonable choice. And standardizing has lots of arguments in it's favor...and only a few against it. Those few can be very powerful in special cases, however, and that should be allowed for. (Probably it will. This is a news story, and as such certain details were probably stripped. Note that the article didn't say that no commercial software would be allowed.)

Re:hooray!

[dbIII]

There is still a lot of choice among open source - they could use Solaris and freedos if they like and still hit this target.

Personally I think it's a good idea if only for the ability to customise the software for the language. It could eliminate the need to be able to read english first before being able to use the software.

Re:hooray!

[Elektroschock]

Well, it is the track. You call for open source mandates and open standards will be the compromise. You chose Linux and Microsoft will cut your license fees to zero and pay your government for not taking it.

You cannot negotiate with a compromise. You need to negotiate for preferential treatment.

Re:hooray!

[swillden]

Treating Linux as a one-size-fits-all solution is almost as bad as doing the same with Windows.

I disagree. While I think OpenSolaris and the BSDs are great operating systems and arguably work better than Linux in some contexts, if you want to pick just one OS there isn't ANYTHING that fits as many contexts as Linux. From embedded systems to big iron and everything in between, Linux works, and works well.

Of course, there's more to the OS than just a kernel, and arguably the Linux kernel used in an embedded system *isn't* the same kernel used in big iron, even if it's build from the same source tree. And that argument also assumes there's value in picking just one kernel for everything. But if you do want to pick one kernel for everything, Linux isn't just a good choice, it's the ONLY choice.

Re:hooray!

[abuelos84]

+1

Re:hooray!

[bsDaemon]

Linux isn't just a good choice, it's the ONLY choice.

Have you met NetBSD recently? I think you'll find that it runs on more stuff than Linux does, or at least just as much.

Re:hooray!

[rtb61]

In the case the government is enforcing choice not eliminating choice. FOSS software provide continuous choice by it very design. Do I use the software the way it is, do I make changes to suit my needs, do I choose to upgrade, do I choose to change document formats, do I choose to throw away billions of dollars on software licences. So let's just all back away from the M$ lie.

To select closed source proprietary software with restricted document choice kills all future choices except one, on all other choices you must obey they dictates of corporation who will manipulate changes in software to maximise their profits and hence your costs and the only choice you get is when to finally get off the upgrade treadmill and make the crossgrade to FOSS where you get to choose the future direction of your software stack depending upon the effort you want to put into it.

The reality is, for all the other countries in the world, their choice is whether to throw away money on foreign debt, literally billions of dollars on software licences to 'ONE' US company or to search for an alternative where that money can instead be invested into the local community and be used to develop technological expertise in their own economy. It is very difficult not to end up looking corrupt when foreign governments bleed their own economies to pointlessly enrich the billionaires of M$ when free substantially better solutions are available.

Re:hooray!

[Failed Physicist]

can you name anyone who uses Linux for professional photography editing?

I do. I'm a budding photojournalist and I consider that no event picture should ever need to be photoshopped. As such whatever photo editing I need never really goes past slight exposure correction, fixing white balance, etc.

For montages and stuff, well, that's why you have a graphist.

Of course I am not speaking for professional photographers of the artsy type, but even then I consider that you can do pretty much anything you need with gimp. Photoshopped works often lie more towards computer-generated works than pictures.

Re:hooray!

[ricegf]

OSS people are worried about the rights of users. "Users" means ... for governments and companies, those organizations as singular beings.

Nope. OSS people (free software advocates) are worried about the rights of citizens.

I paid for the data*, and I demand the right to access it without paying a mandatory tax to Microsoft, Apple, Adobe, or anyone else. This demand is trivial from a technical standpoint; overcoming corporate influence in government offices is the challenge here.

* I'm obviously talking about government data intended to be shared, not F-22 source code, here. :-)

Re:hooray!

[Grishnakh]

For government (not companies), you have a point. However, it still only really extends to data that's shared with the citizens, not systems that are only used within government offices. But remember, the government is accountable to the citizens, and theoretically "of the people", so you certainly have a right to lobby for your government to make an OSS-only rule, that all of its systems must run OSS. Unfortunately, you're only one citizen, and if other citizens disagree, their voices have equal weight.

Re:hooray!

[ricegf]

Yes, but only those citizens that express an opinion - which in the USA is a small minority. So my voice has disproportionate weight, which I intend to use to advocate freedom at every turn.

Re:hooray!

[Grishnakh]

It depends on what you mean by "express". As the last few elections have shown, turnout rates in the US aren't bad at all really. Of course, that's mainly for Presidential elections; other elections get less turnout or votes (if they're on the same ballot). I imagine the percentage of eligible voters bothering to vote for local school board positions probably isn't very high in many places.

Now, if you mean "express" as in writing a letter (not an email) to or calling your Congresscritter (state or national) to express a certain opinion, you're definitely right. Only a very, very small part of the population bothers to do that, and just like lobbyists' opinions, these opinions tend to carry a little more weight than others.

If you're planning to push your representatives to adopt rules requiring the use of OSS software and/or open file formats whenever possible in government, that's a pretty good way to do it, and I wish you well.

Re:hooray!

[wintermute000]

That would be one hilarious migration project!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Government bureaucracy + massive IT project + lots of production systems = get popcorn + start facepalming

Its bad enough in private enterprise. Throw Asian govt + business nexus (disclaimer: I'm Chinese) into the mix and it gets so mind boggling my head is about to explode

Re:hooray!

[swillden]

z-series?

Re:hooray!

[jbolden]

Remember this is a whole country with its own language. Likely they are going to be creating their own distribution

Next up!

[erroneus]

Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer take a S.E. Asian vacation...

Re:Next up!

[richardbirks]

... then what better time to invest heavily in a Vietnamese furniture manufacturer.

Re:Next up!

[NuclearError]

Microsoft reminds you when you program open source, you program communist!

Re:Next up!

[Yvan256]

I'm sure they both already have aides.

Re:Next up!

[Hyperspite]

That explains how they lost so much weight.

Re:Next up!

[_merlin]

Suits them - Vietnam is nominally communist.

Next week article.

[jellomizer]

Microsoft offers a new deal to Vietnam. Vietnam goes with Windows for 5 more years.

I may be skeptical. Using the Linux card is a great way to get a better deal from Microsoft. The bigger you yell the better the deal.

Re:Next week article.

[Greyfox]

Yeah, it's not like we haven't seen this story before. It's cropped up in South America and Africa. Microsoft always jumps in offering a steep discount and the organizations in question end up quietly changing their mind. It seems like the best way for a government organization to get a huge discount from Microsoft is to mandate Linux usage.

Re:Next week article.

[Anonymous Coward]

If they're bluffing M$, they just made a quick buck. If they're for real, they made a very wise investment.

Re:Next week article.

[girlintraining]

I may be skeptical. Using the Linux card is a great way to get a better deal from Microsoft. The bigger you yell the better the deal.

Eventually though they won't be able to offer discounts anymore because they won't be making any profit. It's not a sustainable model. Sooner or later, Microsoft is going to have to eat cow.

Re:Next week article.

[jellomizer]

Microsoft isn't competing against free.
They are competing against the price it will take to do a full switch to Linux vs the cost to stay and get new windows licenses.

As Linux gets better that cost gets smaller. Their may be a point where it isn't profitable for Microsoft. But it is a case where the product is already made, and covered their cost in the US and other areas. Then they can go really low on the price for a while.

Re:Next week article.

[thesupraman]

This is a growing economy, perhaps they are just deciding to take the hit now rather than dig themselves deeper into the Microsoft dependency trap.

To me this seems like a very sensible call for smaller and growing countries - it frees up resources for other purposes and means they are not caught in the trap in the future.

Linux doesnt have to be 'all that great', it just has to work, and it does. We are not talking about countries that have developed to the fat-and-lazy level of needing everything to be 'managed for them' here.

And if you thin Microsoft bends over backwards to help large customers in 'other' countries, then good luck with that.

Re:Next week article.

[Yfrwlf]

While you're right in that it's foolish not to consider the total cost, but the fact is Linux is free, so it will always be a smart long-term decision, it doesn't matter the initial costs because it WILL always be cheaper. It doesn't require more expensive hardware, it is the best long-term investment you can make. If any software is needed that doesn't exist yet, switch and it will come, especially for such a big organization switching.

Re:Next week article.

[ThePhilips]

There is a large upfront cost of switching.

In 3rd world people are saving by switching, since Linux can be customized to run on less resources. E.g. Linux Terminal Server is much much resource savvy compared to Windows Terminal Server.

And a lot of people will not be happy that they can't do X like they did before.

I'm pretty sure that Vietnam has its own ISVs. And the move - is the huge investment into ISV sector. For government it's a huge win too: more taxes.

And if they need support on some feature you can't intimate a US Open Source Developer by saying you are from the government.

Do not be silly. US != World. Local ISVs can do it and there are lots of Linux consultancies around of world. Asia is not that backward as many CNN/FoxNews watchers might think.

This is huge chance for local business to cash in - in long term. If gov't is serious, I'm sure they wouldn't let the chance to slip.

At least with Microsoft and you are a big customer they will bend over backwards to help you.

That's big lie. They will "bend over backward" if you have enough money to pay them for that. Otherwise you are on your own.

M$ can and does something on their own - but they rarely listen to feedback. Generally, in M$ ecosystem, burden of backward compatibility is on integrators and ISVs. My friend worked for such company in past implementing features (normally using ActiveX) from new M$ products for older M$ products (and vise versa) as well as smoothing integration with 3rd party software. Imagine: huge business built around solving problems created entirely by M$ development strategy.

Re:Next week article.

[banffbug]

And a lot of people will not be happy that they can't do X like they did before.

I don't think the people working for the Government of Vietnam are going to be very vocal about this.

It boils down to money, and national security. Why would they want a proprietary (foreign!) system like Windows when they can have something for free that their army of programmers can tweak and maintain? Their support will come from within, while creating a competent programmer workforce.

Re:Next week article.

[techess]

I'd be interested in seeing if anyone had done a cost analysis of switching to Linux vs. IT & OS cost to move to Vista or Windows 7. I would guess it would be very similar. If they are currently running XP and looking at upgrading they may have reached the point you mention, where moving to Linux costs the same as Microsoft's super-deal.

Re:Next week article.

[Anonymous Coward]

a lot of people will not be happy that they can't do X like they did before

If it's X they're doing, then they'll love Linux. I've always found that the various X implementations for Windows integrate poorly with the native desktop, whereas on Linux, X is the native desktop.

At least with Microsoft and you are a big customer they will bend over backwards to help you.

ROFL.

Re:Next week article.

[drpt]

can you discount a tird ?

Re:Next week article.

[Tubal-Cain]

Even for long term planning. If it will take say 10 years to recoup the cost going with switch to Linux.

[Citation Needed]
Anyways, governments generally exist long enough to justify long-term planning. What's a decade to a government that could last centuries?

and they may get into problems abiding by the GPL

1. If they don't customize the OS or don't distribute it outside the government, they aren't in violation of the GPL
2. They are required to have an OSS operating system, not necessarily Linux (stupid summary). It can be something not licensed under the GPL, such as BSD.
3. They are not subject to US copyright law.

Re:Next week article.

[jellomizer]

Yea like all open source application are written nice and clean and easy to modify yourself.

For most of us with open source if It doesn't work we delete it and find an app that does, even if it is closed source or you have to pay for it. Some Apps especially big ones to fix a simple problem will require you to start digging the source trying to figure out how it is laid out etc... A month later you can make that text box handle 50 characters except for 30.

If it was Open Source and Open Spec, then you can probably more quickly fix the code yourself. However there are to many people who think Open Source means Open Speced.

Re:Next week article.

[Elektroschock]

It is a domino effect agenda. Microsoft cannot afford to lose the deal and all procurement departments worldwide are about to use the same trick. So it is actually not important if Vietnam actually changes to Linux. It is like innocent civilians you put in front of a tank. Crushing them only escalates as long as media attention is covering the incident. Microsoft is in a difficult situation. They have to use ruthless lobbying tactics and these tactics escalate the conflict and strengthen the "resistance" to their products.

Re:Next week article.

[Elektroschock]

Exactly. And it just works. Right now no pressure group actually lobbies for Linux migration. It is simple procurement economics. Microsoft will end up to pay governments for using their products. Remember when they paid AOL for using the IE engine instead of gecko developed by AOL?

Re:Next week article.

[Elektroschock]

Put it in the context of what happened in China. Microsoft tried to crack down on software piracy. Then the Chinese threatened to use Linux and was able to continue to use Windows virtually for free.

Re:Next week article.

[Catalina588]

Guess this announcements means the Vietnamese version of Windows is put on hold. And what Linux distro are they using to get Vietnamese on Linux?

Re:Next week article.

[wumingzi]

There's an issue that a lot of developing countries have.

When you're at Vietnam's level of development, the piracy rate is astonishing. 99% of the software is pirated. All the software used at home is pirated. Most of the software used in government offices is pirated. Most of the software used in companies is pirated. Sometimes some do-gooder will wind up buying legitimate software, but that's really rare.

MS knows this. Everyone knows this. In a country with a per-capita income of $1000 a year, there's simply not a dollar at the end of this conversation. Yell, scream, protest to the World Court. Nothing will happen. There's no money to take.

So nothing happens.

Development moves along. Cheap furniture and rattan baskets turn into power tools. Christmas lights turn into consumer electronics. Power tools become CNC machines. Consumer electronics become silicon fabs.

Suddenly, you're not a dollar-a-day country any more. You've got real money. Moreover, your money comes from exports.

At this point, Microsoft comes back again. This lax attitude towards intellectual property? Beggar countries are allowed to slip by. Middle-to-high income countries? Uh-uh.

Your legislature is given a modest proposal. Produce intellectual property laws and enforce them, or the export-driven capital party comes to a grinding halt.

You now have a nascent IT infrastructure in your government offices which was built on pirated MS software. What was winked at for years is winked at no more.

Your IT managers now have a very expensive problem. Purchase licenses for every machine in government use, or retool for open source. Your choice. Both options suck.

By starting on OSS early, Vietnam is making a smart choice which will save a lot of pain down the road.

Re:Next week article.

[banffbug]

If their goal is to get windows for cheap, then yes this course of action will work. Only time will tell if it's all a ploy. I hope they do adopt FOSS, maybe other countries will follow suit.

Re:Next week article.

[el americano]

Things like getting the wireless to work and a second monitor proved to be a lot of effort to me (KDE).

Oh no! The Vietnam government will quickly grind to a halt without those... or somebody will fix it, one of the two.

Meanwhile, the cost savings and more powerful OS are sure to come in handy.

Re:Next week article.

[Hadlock]

Did you really just compare Tiananmen Square to the advancement of the Linux agenda? Seriously?

Re:Next week article.

[Elektroschock]

Look, people get killed by dictatorial regimes all around the world and no one notices it.

People against tanks wasn't invented in China. Tiananmensquare is great as a symbol because it demasked the Chinese regime. With Tiananmen Quare some person might get killed but it is not important if someone gets killed for the success of the scenario. Tiananmen had strong effects for the overthrow of Middle European Communist governments because the events and the solidarity notes of their government officials seriously undermined the regimes.

In the same sense people should not be concerned that Microsoft as the opponent of interests will escalate the situation as it did in MA or with Open XML and "win" because the political price it has to pay is far too high and as long as others don't feel deterred by the aggressions any victory is phyrric. Who would care what software is running in the state of MA? But what happened there stimulated international outrage and hit other dominos. That is the strange thing to consider. By fighting open policies the monster grows for Microsoft. They win MA and the next state shows up.

Think Monsanto against Percy Schmeisser. The whole case of the ruthless company is a brilliant propaganda piece for the anti-life patent movement. Ofn course the propaganda line is to paint Monsanto as the bad guy they are. If you can expose your opponent as the bad guy he is all violations of commonly shared beliefs and values he has to commit to win against your "good cause" fire heavily back. It becomes tragic for the opponent: Either the opponent gives up or he "wins". The task for you would therefore not be to win but to maximize the political damage because you don't really depend on winning it.

No one gets killed in IT.

Re:Next week article.

[ricegf]

As Linux gets better that cost [of switching from Windows] gets smaller ... but it is a case where the product is already made, and covered their cost in the US and other areas.

Not really, I think, because the day Microsoft stops working on (and touting) the next great version of Windows is the day the world switches to alternatives. Or have you not heard anything about Windows 7 yet? (ahem)

Microsoft is stuck on an expensive treadmill, and they know it. The open source development model is working very well for their competitors - Windows share dropped below 90% for the first time in modern computer history this week (thanks more to BSD-based OS/X than Linux), IE is below 60% in some markets (thanks primarily to open source Firefox), and even the Office cash cow is looking a bit pale lately in light of its competitors - and Microsoft has no clue how to embrace, extend and extinguish it.

Nothing's certain, of course, but in configuring my portfolio for the coming market rebound, I am not betting on Microsoft stock.

Re:Next week article.

[Hadlock]

I re-read that three times. Either you're taking a class taught by someone with a fixation on communist bloc countries or you just wrote three unrelated stream of consciousness single paragraph essays. Either way, you have yet to present a coherent argument. I'd revoke your slashdot login if I could. Get some sleep pal.

Re:Next week article.

[Yfrwlf]

Um, yeah it's free if you want to continue sharing the code that you use if you make changes to it. Whoopty freakin' do. Why would you want to lock it down, why would you use someone's work for free but then not share yourself? Pretty hypocritical, but you can use BSD or something instead then if that's what you want. Or, if you want to, you CAN make proprietary complimentary programs or whatnot, or not distribute the code and keep it internal which is also legal to do with the GPL.

Why would you want to use someone's work for free, but then want to lock down your contributions any way? Very hypocritical, but if that's what you want, go BSD.

What do they have against BSD and OpenSolaris?

[John Hasler]

n/t

Re:What do they have against BSD and OpenSolaris?

[TheRaven64]

Exactly my question. For a lot of uses, one of these can be a better choice than Linux. Mandating open source software means you don't get vendor lock in, but mandating Linux also means that you might well not be getting the right tool for the job.

Re:What do they have against BSD and OpenSolaris?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about the submitter's sources, but the article referenced in the summary doesn't mention Linux, at all.

Re:What do they have against BSD and OpenSolaris?

[fwarren]

Remember, to get "Most Favored Nation Trading Status". These countries are supposed to get their piracy rates down to under 10 or 20%. With software piracy at over 80%. Government is one of the major offenders.

This is a solution to that problem. Not one that Microsoft is going to like living with. But hey, no one in Vietnam will be stealing Microsoft's precious IP.

Re:What do they have against BSD and OpenSolaris?

[Penguinisto]

What do they have against BSD...

They read Netcraft?

(/me ducks and runzlakhell...)

/P

!all

[Tubal-Cain]

All of Vietnam's Government Computers To Use Linux

According to the new rule, 100% of government servers must run Linux by June 30, 2009, and 70% of agencies must use OpenOffice.org, Mozilla Firefox, and Mozilla Thunderbird by the end of 2009.

FTA:
by June 30, 2009, 100% of servers of IT divisions of government agencies must be installed with open source software;

I really doubt all of the Vietnam government's computers are servers. Also, Open Source does not neccisarily mean Linux. (not that BSD is a bad alternative)

Re:!all

[morgan_greywolf]

Also, Open Source does not neccisarily mean Linux.

Surely there are no other open source operating systems other than Linux!!

Re:!all

[rwyoder]

I really doubt all of the Vietnam government's computers are servers. Also, Open Source does not necessarily mean Linux. (not that BSD is a bad alternative)

Whoa! Someone who actually *read* the article. If I had mod points today, I'd mod you up. BTW, are you new here?

Re:!all

[Tubal-Cain]

No, I'm not new here. Just a relapse. Don't worry, it won't happen again.

Re:!all

[SharpFang]

>by June 30, 2009, 100% of servers of IT divisions of government agencies must be installed with open source software;

So. Let's see. Windows 2003 Server. Runs Exchange, SharePoint, MSSQL, IIS. And here, I open the console and type nc localhost 80. See, it connected. Netcat is open source. Meaning this server has been installed with Open Source software. Requirement fulfilled.

Emerging Solutions

[mfh]

Penguins?!? in Vietnam? It's a cold day in hell boys!!!

Also, this bodes well for Open Source everywhere. Eventually all other countries will follow suit and the people will have government systems that work best for their diverse cultures, tailor made UIs and logic, that can also extend inventive solutions.

Also knowing what is in the source code helps identify potential threats to national security.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[Tubal-Cain]

Eventually all other countries will follow suit

That's optimistic. Not many countries are big enough to influence others with a decision like this. Why should they care? This is less important that the fact they speak different languages.
Also, this could be used as FUD by MS lobbyists "Linux is evil because it is being used by those communistic Chinese and Vietnamese."

Better would be some international organization (NATO, UN, NAFTA) adopting it.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[jeffmeden]

Also, this bodes well for Open Source everywhere. Eventually all other countries will follow suit and the people will have government systems that work best for their diverse cultures, tailor made UIs and logic, that can also extend inventive solutions.

You BET! Every country on the globe (with the exception, perhaps, of Cambodia) is eager to follow in anything that the hip, trendy Vietnam does. Hell, I would be surprised if the United States can resist the trend, I predict they will issue a government mandate to run free software* by 2010!

*Of course, don't hold me to exactly what that free software will be. The US Govt could, pretty easily, simply mandate that Microsoft Windows be given to them for free.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[Tubal-Cain]

That would be bad for MS. There would be a key floating around that they couldn't justify deactivating.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[mfh]

That's optimistic. Not many countries are big enough to influence others with a decision like this. Why should they care? This is less important that the fact they speak different languages.

Working models influence decisions. Vietnam could easily release their version of the OS as a defacto government solution, making them valuable, to other global trading partners. Do you think China will turn a blind eye to this? No, they will request a copy of it to study it. They might even use it, if it's any good.

When you get China to use your software, that tends to have a ripple effect.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[Presto Vivace]

Also knowing what is in the source code helps identify potential threats to national security. I have been thinking the same thing, that has to be one of the biggest selling points of open source.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[mcgrew]

Penguins?!? in Vietnam? It's a cold day in hell boys!!!

Black Footed Penguins (also known, according to Wikipedia, as "Jackass Penguins") would likely feel right at home there, seeing as how they are native to Africa. They have a couple in the zoo here, they keep them inside during the winter.

When is somebody going to name a Linux distro "Blackfoot?" It would be HOT!

Re:Emerging Solutions

[Culture20]

Eventually all other countries will follow suit

Are you suggesting there will be a domino-effect?

Re:Emerging Solutions

[larry bagina]

China currently uses Red Flag linux.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[fwarren]

One of the big things that keep many Government agencies and large business from making the switch. They have not seen anyone do it successfully. The better Vietnam does this the more likely it is to have an effect in the west.

Also, if they write any software that helps with this. If it is written as opens source it would be available to help other organizations switch. It all snowballs.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[plague3106]

Perhaps, but I think an iron curtain will protect us.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[oakgrove]

Simple, with Linux, you don't have to just paste on a theme to what's already there. You can completely rip out the entire UI layer and replace it with whatever you want. Say you want a lighter, faster UI. Just replace whatever you have, be it KDE, Gnome, XFCE, or whatever with, *box, icewm, ion, fvwm, enlightenment or any one or more of the plethora of window managers out there. Don't like Xorg? There are alternatives. Hell, for that matter, you can just boot to a blinking cursor if that's your bag. This is a gross over simplification of what you can do but you get the point. With Windows on the other hand, for all intents and purposes, you are stuck with explorer.exe (sure there are ways around this but I've never seen someone in real life running anything else) and gluing something over the top of it. Even if you boot to "DOS", in the NT era, it's still a partially maximized window. After you change to the classic theme and turn off the animations, your box is as fast as it will ever get. It can only go slower from there. After adding Window Blinds or whatever theming engine you are using, you inevitably end up with something that is at best prettier but is still of lower performance than what you started with. So, sure you can possibly make it look like whatever you want but there are sacrifices to be made. Obviously, in the business space, there are ATMs and kiosks, that are running Windows with heavily customized interfaces that work fairly well and are responsive. But, that is a very narrow usage scenario. And you aren't going to put something like that on most people's desks and expect them to go for it.

And as far as implementing any logic I want. Cool, I have plenty of money, so when will you have that arm port of Windows 2000 ready that I can install on my N800? Thought not.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[powerlord]

Now I see what that sneaky penguin is doing.

First China switches to Linux, then Vietnam, next thing you know the entire South East Asia is falling like a chain of Dominos, and your buying pirated copies of CentOS in India!

Now where have I heard this before?

[/humor]

In practice, assuming they are trying to force MS to offer lower pricing, then it makes more and more sense for foreign governments to mandate OSS use.

1) Cheaper licensing cost, plus they no longer have the "stigma" in the foreign community of harboring/contributing to Software Pirates (in the legitimate use of the word).

2) Any money spent on maintenance, upkeep, customization are kept "local" in country, instead of lining MS's pockets.

3) The use of OSS forces more people to become used to it, which will (most likely) increase its adoption in the home market (especially where OSS excels at running on "older" or more cost restricted hardware)

4) The fact that OSS provides the source encourages local entrepreneurship, both for government use, and for the home sector. This could (I didn't say "Will") jumpstart a larger technological industry (games, utilities, support/servicing, virus writing and protection, teaching).

Of course I'm pulling these arguments out of thin air, so who really knows.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[FishWithAHammer]

Why would Vietnam actually open source anything, exactly? They're not distributing it outside their own offices, so even the rotten GPL (and yes, gnulots, it IS rotten--MPL, CDDL, or BSD for the win) can't make it so you get code.

(And they're not saying anything in the article about switching to Linux. Read the fucking article next time.)

Re:Emerging Solutions

[AmberBlackCat]

I think one food possibility here is that anybody who makes hardware for the Vietnamese market is going to have to make a Linux driver now. That means any of that hardware, which is also sold outside of Vietnam, is going to have a Linux driver somewhere. Maybe iPods are popular enough in Vietnam for a Linux iTunes...

Re:Emerging Solutions

[fwarren]

They may not have to. If the source for it is laying around anyone can look at it. If it is built on top of some FOSS licensed software that requires redistribution it will be copied. Plus they could give it to someone like China.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[FishWithAHammer]

Except that even the GPL doesn't require redistribution of source inside an organization, like a government.

And you assume that they will leave the source "lying around."

Re:Emerging Solutions

[HAKdragon]

Simple, with Linux, you don't have to just paste on a theme to what's already there. You can completely rip out the entire UI layer and replace it with whatever you want. Say you want a lighter, faster UI. Just replace whatever you have, be it KDE, Gnome, XFCE, or whatever with, *box, icewm, ion, fvwm, enlightenment or any one or more of the plethora of window managers out there.
 
You can use a different UI shell on Windows too. It's just that nearly everybody on Windows uses Explorer.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[techno-vampire]

when will you have that arm port of Windows 2000 ready that I can install on my N800?

It will be out just in time for you to run Duke Nukem Forever on it.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[Elektroschock]

Consider how little money is currently invested in the development of Linux and other free software. Small amounts of government investment can make a huge difference. Linux development is far more efficient. For believers in running code origin does not matter.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[cciRRus]

Do you know the actual usage rate? Red Flag Linux isn't gaining that much users as claimed.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[fwarren]

Yes, that is my assumption. Lots of FTP servers, lots of packages.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[maglor_83]

The south-west coast of Africa has a slightly different climate to Vietnam.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[ricegf]

I like to think that, too. Of course, some vulnerabilities aren't that obvious in the source code, and some aren't visible in the source at all.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[mcgrew]

I dont know what part of Africa these penguins are from, South Africa is roughly as far south of the equator as Vietnam is north of it. They should have roughly the same climate (rain forest/jungle).

Re:Emerging Solutions

[FishWithAHammer]

Furthermore, you're assuming (and, I think, tacitly encouraging) violating the GPL by people illicitly releasing that code. (Yes, that's a violation of the GPL to do so.)

Interesting. I would have thought somebody who cheers this to be for the GPL.

Re:Emerging Solutions

[Krishnoid]

When is somebody going to name a Linux distro "Blackfoot?" It would be HOT!

Not as hot as being able to say 'I run Jackass Linux'.

Lead time?

[qoncept]

Yikes, I hope no one was using SQL Server. 6 months to move every system to a new operating system? Moving one single system is a huge effort that most companies wouldn't even think about doing in such a short time.

Re:Lead time?

[eleuthero]

don't worry, it's much more likely that cousin X will talk to cousin Y and cousin Y will pay off department supervisor Q and the entire Northeastern half of the country will get a 5 year "extension" for switching

Re:Lead time?

[ShieldW0lf]

Yikes, I hope no one was using SQL Server. 6 months to move every system to a new operating system? Moving one single system is a huge effort that most companies wouldn't even think about doing in such a short time.

Technically, you could convert the Windows install into a virtual machine, install Linux and fire up the virtual machine with Windows installed on it, and you'd be in compliance. If I was one of the technicians responsible for implementing this, and knew I wasn't going to make my deadline, that's what I would do.

Re:Lead time?

[BigBuckHunter]

Yikes, I hope no one was using SQL Server. 6 months to move every system to a new operating system? Moving one single system is a huge effort that most companies wouldn't even think about doing in such a short time.

Two words....

LEROY JENKINS!!!!!!

BBH

Re:Lead time?

[bazonic]

That was my first thought too - the poor bastards who are managing institutions with hundreds of servers are going to have to migrate, test, tweak/rewrite all their apps in less than six months? IT Confucius say: technology timelines handed down by government are doomed to fail.
 
Great intent, but this isn't going to be pretty.

They should move to OSX instead

[Anonymous Coward]

A giant customized Starbucks in Cupertino California where lattes and no soy skim macchiatos are given out free to all employees. The background music involves a playlist of Nora Jones, David Matthews, John Mayer, and Bono on loop from an Ipod docked somewhere in the Apple/Starbucks facility. Hours are long but morale is surprising high as developers, hardware and software, are given 30 minute breaks to masturbate to the new itunes interface.

All developers sit at cafe type tables with a Mac Book Pro while their lord and master Steve Jobs stands deskless in his predictable attire of a turtleneck and jeans. In fact, this is the preferred (mandatory) dress code at Apple. Jobs walks around to each and every department, separated by latte and vegan preferences, and checks on the performance and efficiency of his developers. At any given point in the day one may see Mr Jobs yelling at a programmer for not implementing a button in the perfect shade of corn flower blue (#6495ED) and immediately sends him to the apple punitive chamber, consisting of a HP Compaq running Vista Basic.

There are 2 software development departments and 2 hardware development sections in Apple. For software there is the Apple core team, Apple Open Source team. In hardware there is the Apple systems and management team and the iDevice team. Since the OSX kernel consists of a BSD darwin kernel there is no real need for low level programmers and as such the entirety of the Apple core team consists of UI designers and photoshop junkies. All software churned out from the core team is designed in a program strikingly similar to Visual Studio's form designer but with Cocoa Objective C generated instead. The 16 hour day (Jobs demands 16 hour days since he himself never sleeps) of a core dev involves lining up the right shade of chrome with the latest photoshopped graphite button and maintaining the correct color scheme, not an easy job at all.

The Apple open source team involves a little bit more coding, which is mandated to be done in TextEdit or the option of a $80 third party mac text editor. The Apple open source team doesn't actually create much code but searches the internet for interesting BSD licensed software and modifies it as it's own through obfuscation and conversion to objective C. Many of the items a mac user sees comes from the open source world stamped by apple such as the ability to play music taken from 67 different originally linux based players, CD burning, and the overall ability to click a mouse. Apple's legal department has no qualms about this practice and has assured many that since most of the code is BSD and if any is GPLed many Linux hippies should be grateful that Apple fostered WebKit by using KHTML and adding some Gecko bloat. Perhaps one of the most important items that the open source team has done to date is use parts of the FreeBSD to keep the kernel up to date.

There's not much to say about the Apple systems and management team. I suppose they can be classified in to desktop and laptop systems. Because hardware work is beneath Apple in general and thought of being only worthy of Windows Users and as such can be found working on these beauties in the starbucks bathroom. Desktops are currently made by buying dell machines and putting them in Lian Li cases, where the majority of the costs goes to buying titanium Apple emblems to paste on the sides. Laptops consists of the rebranding of only the most silver and black Sony Viaos but talk has been going around about rebranding Asus EeePCs for a new Apple netbook but you didn't hear that from me, for fear of my life.

The iDevice team's job is to develop for the ipod, iphone, itouch, and many other portable electronics apple may release in the future. Their jobs are very interconnected with the open source team as well as the core dev team. Using firmware from random samsung devices and giving it an OSX skin the ipod stands as a shining example that infringement only applies to greasy file sharers and that the music player remains the best in market

Re:They should move to OSX instead

[MightyYar]

Wow, someone actually typed all of that.

Re:They should move to OSX instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Also on a side note to those who are worried about Job's health. He is fine but is trying a new diet consisting of Soy Nuts and Anger.

You troll, I LOL.

Re:They should move to OSX instead

[SecondaryOak]

On a MacBook Wheel, no less!

Re:They should move to OSX instead

[fishbowl]

>Well, the Macintosh has been playing music since 1984.

My first published computer music was made with an Orchestra-80, in 1980. Before that, I was stuck with abusing the cassette relay and FM radio interference :-)

Re:They should move to OSX instead

[koalapeck]

This could be the best post I've read on here in a long time. Bravo, if you actually wrote it.

Re:They should move to OSX instead

[p.rican]

My word, I wish I had mod points for this. Brilliant.

Re:They should move to OSX instead

[Ash-Fox]

The background music involves a playlist of Nora Jones, David Matthews, John Mayer, and Bono on loop from an Ipod docked somewhere in the Apple/Starbucks facility.

I think Apple fans prefer baby music, they play it all the time in Apple ads.

It's amusing to watch Vietnam do what USA should

[WillAffleckUW]

But then, we have too many people here in denial.

Also, think about the fact that Vietnam has a lot of people who were educated in France, where Open Source is more common in government.

Next up!

[Anonymous Coward]

Vietnam war 2.0!
CIA drops thousands Windows Vista Home Basic installation discs into the jungle.
Vietkong is hiding in their basements running make menuconfig and compiling their kernels.

LINUX FTW!

[Anonymous Coward]

Good for them! I can't wait until the USA makes this same decision.. Might help out our shitty economy

Not necessarily good

[CannonballHead]

IMO, this is not necessarily good. Forcing free software on someone is not going to generate all good comments. In fact, forcing someone to use something, especially if they aren't used to it, usually generates more complaints - not because the new thing is actually worse, but simply because they are being FORCED to use it.

I dunno. I like using Linux and I think it's a good alternative to Windows, but forcing people to switch doesn't really show Linux to be a "good alternative," doesn't make people want to use it on its own merits, etc... it makes it look more like a financial move, not a "This is better software" move.

Re:Not necessarily good

[0racle]

The company you work for most likely dictates many of the tools you use. This is no different.

Re:Not necessarily good

[moderatorrater]

They may bitch about it, but in the end they become more proficient and more likely to use it in the future. I work with a dude who loves perl and java with a fervor that would match a die-hard mac fan. In the end, he programs most of his personal stuff in php because that's what he uses here at work.

Re:Not necessarily good

[CannonballHead]

I'm not saying they don't have the right to say what to use. I'm saying that the switch may produce undesired perceptions about Linux. Just like forcing a bunch of PC users to use only Macs would do the same about Macs. People just don't like being forced to change, and when they are forced to change (being hired new is a bit different from having been there and THEN undergo a big change), their perception about what they are newly being required to use is generally colored with the dislike of being forced to use it. Especially when it's a "big" switch, like Windows -> Linux is. No, it's not a big switch for people that know what directory structure are, blah blah blah, but for someone that doesn't know much past "My Documents" and "The Internet (TM)," it can definitely be a big change...

Re:Not necessarily good

[Anonymous Coward]

Back when PCs where not on every desk, people complained when they were introduced.

They complained about their job being changed from under them, they complained about having to learn new things.

The world did not stop turning, the PC was not taken away from their desk (though some held out from using it until there really was no choice) and now everyone's got a PC on their desk which almost invariably runs Windows.

But things change. Sometimes that change is painful but if there is a real, clear benefit it will happen. Right now I'm not sure where the real clear benefit of Linux on the desktop is - certainly not when Microsoft, despite what anyone on /. may say, are more likely to be admired in the business world for having done such an efficient job of rising to the top than they are to be reviled for how they got there.

Re:Not necessarily good

[FishWithAHammer]

One of the few good posts I've seen.

There may, in the future, be a benefit to switching everything over to Linux and open source software. That will occur when it's both as good as the closed-source offering from a user perspective (meaning, for the people obsessed with the wrongheaded gnulot ideology and with "but our stuff is technically better", fuck off) and when the cost of continued use of Microsoft is more expensive than the costs of switching.

Re:Not necessarily good

[smoker2]

No, it's not a big switch for people that know what directory structure are, blah blah blah, but for someone that doesn't know much past "My Documents" and "The Internet (TM)," it can definitely be a big change...

For people who are that low down on the learning ladder it won't matter a bit then. We do have desktop environments available in Linux these days. Besides, nobody ever complains about "learning" a new web site.

Re:Not necessarily good

[boteeka]

Mandating the use of open-source software in government institutions is OK. Individual people can use whatever they want.

send in the Linux attack team ..

[rs232]

EDGI is a customer-focused program that is for circumstances (like the one you reference) where an education and/or government customer is going to purchase naked PC'S or PC'S w/Linux ..

under NO circumstances lose against Linux .. "

Re:Huh

[Tubal-Cain]

That is only a deterrent if nobody finds out about WINE and they don't need to use Battle.net

netcraft confirms it!!!!

[gandhi_2]

The Communications Ministry of Vietnam is running ASP.net on Windows Server 2003! oh the ironing!

forced to use 'free' software ?

[rs232]

"IMO, this is not necessarily good. Forcing free software on someone is not going to generate all good comments"

Beats forcing people to use software through the use of MOUs and when was the last time you can provide a citation for, when management consulted people on what software they used?

Re:forced to use 'free' software ?

[CannonballHead]

I am going on the assumption that they were previously using Windows. I didn't read the article.

Assuming they were using Windows, forcing the switch from Windows to Linux is a pretty big switch... for most non-geeky people anyways.

I'm looking at this from a user-perception-of-Linux/open source software and how this might affect it. If the switch were reversed, I'm guessing the consensus that being forced to use Windows when people are used to Linux would create general dissent against Windows because of the forcible change, not necessarily because of Windows vs. Linux (I think we have to admit that most users, unless they are in the IT field, don't really care about the difference between Linux and Windows, as long as it works).

Open standards are more important

[tsa]

I think open standards are much more important than open source software. The ability to use your favorite program to get a certain task accomplished without having to worry about compatibility problems is worth much more than wether you use open source or not. I would much rather use Pages instead of OpenOffice if it only would support ODF, for instance.

Chairs

[mfh]

Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer take a S.E. Asian vacation...

You cannot scare Vietnam with office furniture.

Next Edict...

[tjstork]

"Make my open office spreadsheet do [something just like excel], or, its the John McCain poke cage for you!"

Re:Next Edict...

[phorm]

I'd be happy if it would open the excel sheets my HR department has and print the damn things properly. I can't figure out why (all the paper/margin settings are correct) but it always prints the entire document in a 1.5"x1" space...

Re:Next Edict...

[tjstork]

They tested OpenBSD first but Vietnamese people and flames do not mix well.

It didn't help that they were using the "Napalm" release.

Not forcing anyone

[Anonymous Coward]

Who forced them to make this decision? As far as I can tell (with the article so short on details) the Vietnamese government came to this decision of their own free will. Yes, they're allowed to decide what software to install on their own computers.

As for the psychological effects, it shouldn't really matter why they chose Linux. The fact that they chose it indicates that it's better for some reason. It could be for security reasons. It could be for philosophical reasons. It could be for financial reasons. It could simply be that they were tired of dealing with licensing (or the risks of lacking licenses). All are excellent reasons to switch.

I applaud their decision and hope that others make the same decision, at the personal, business, and governmental levels.

Oh the ironing!

[jbeaupre]

Is that some sort of laundry joke?!?

Re:Oh the ironing!

[gandhi_2]

like a sweatshop.

Microsoft wins the 2nd Vietnam war!

[tjstork]

If you go to any asian country, you find stacks and stacks of CDs and DVDs filled with mislabelled stuff from Microsoft to Universal studios. So, the thought of Vietnam actually paying for a bunch of Windows licenses just seems rather remote to me.

I would be willing to bet that Microsoft has been quietly watching Windows get rolled out all across Vietnam, knowing that, they don't have but a dozen licenses for the entire country, and a million copies of Windows, and just let Vietnam build all of their infrastructure on top of it.

Then, once they see the Vietnamese are hooked, they sent in a salesteam to ask them to pay for it, or they will shut the country down. Vietnam of course issues its edict, but both they know and Microsoft know, that Vietnam now belongs to Steve Ballmer and Bill Gates.

Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon both roll over in their graves, and somewhere, on a dark night, the leaders of Microsoft enjoy a drink to celebrate the triumph with Henry Kissinger, Dick Cheney and the Bushes. "Hey, we might have f--- up in Iraq, but we finally won Vietnam."

Re:Microsoft wins the 2nd Vietnam war!

[mgblst]

Your an idiot. Do you see a difference between what people see on the street, and what the government buys?

Re:Microsoft wins the 2nd Vietnam war!

[tjstork]

Your an idiot

"Your an idiot" should be written "You're an idiot". I just thought I'd throw that out there.

Do you see a difference between what people see on the street, and what the government buys?

Of course the governments are stealing software, they just lie about it to save face. Do you really, seriously expect me to believe that some mid level manager in the Vietnamese government is genuinely going to be all that worried about whether Microsoft gets their licensing fee?

That's absolutely crazy.

Sure, he might lie to his boss to save face in terms of complying with government policy that he probably doesn't like, and in turn the boss will lie to Microsoft and the west, in exchange for getting access to American markets, but in the end, they are stealing software while selling American buyers shirts for a $1 a piece.

Re:Microsoft wins the 2nd Vietnam war!

[Daengbo]

Too bad you missed my list of stupidities for 2008. Chin up. Maybe you'll make 2009.

reasons for moving to Open Source ..

[rs232]

"Using the Linux card is a great way to get a better deal from Microsoft"

Among the reasons cited were:

to reduce commercial software license fees,

freedom from foreign-owned technology,

greater security,

curbing the number of infections from Windows-based viruses and

to gain technological leadership on platforms relatively free of dominance by large multinational corporations ...

Re:reasons for moving to Open Source ..

[jellomizer]

So all Microsoft needs to do to get the deal...
Lower License Costs.
Hire Vietnam Workers to work in Vietnam
Disable Active X
Use Vista with Norton.
Give them some stock options

Wrong way around...

[Arancaytar]

According to the new rule, 100% of government servers must run Linux by June 30, 2009, and 70% of agencies must use OpenOffice.org, Mozilla Firefox, and Mozilla Thunderbird by the end of 2009.

So wait... first you switch everyone's Operating Systems, which is a bitch to get used to, and then, half a year later, you try to get them to use OS application suites?

What do they use from June 2009 to December 2009? "Microsoft Office for Linux"?

Re:Wrong way around...

[Arancaytar]

Wait - "servers". I suppose individual work-stations will stay on Windows until later. That makes sense.

Re:Wrong way around...

[Tubal-Cain]

Also, they could use other browsers/email clients/office suites until the deadline (Konqueror/KMail/KOffice). Why they want to adopt different software for only 6 months, I won't speculate.

They're just trying to cover their ass

[Anonymous Coward]

The instruction also requests that computer traders not sell PCs installed with cracked software, but open source ones.

Nobody buys software in Vietnam. Seems they got some heat from software vendors for not going after "piracy", and now they're trying to enforce the only alternative to cracked software, i.e. free software.

Ballmer, are you listening?

[bogaboga]

According to the new rule, 100% of government servers must run Linux by June 30, 2009, and 70% of agencies must use OpenOffice.org,

I guess it's time for Steve Ballmer to catch the next flight to Hanoi with cash and incentives in his briefcase. If this approach worked in the past why shouldn't it work one more time?

Go Ballmer go!

Re:Ballmer, are you listening?

[plasmacutter]

According to the new rule, 100% of government servers must run Linux by June 30, 2009, and 70% of agencies must use OpenOffice.org,

I guess it's time for Steve Ballmer to catch the next flight to Hanoi with cash and incentives in his briefcase. If this approach worked in the past why shouldn't it work one more time?

Go Ballmer go!

Isn't it supposed to be with his fucking killstick?

Re:Ballmer, are you listening?

[Trailer Trash]

I hear he's taking a chair....

Re:It's amusing to watch Vietnam do what USA shoul

[poetmatt]

Linux = monopoly?

Since when?

Maybe you should talk to MS about that.

straight from MS FUD central ..

[rs232]

"I think open standards are much more important than open source software"

Straight out of the MS FUD manual. Like, let then use 'free' software as long as they us our Intellectual Property and Patent dues. When does your shift on slashdot finish ?

Re:straight from MS FUD central ..

[tsa]

When does yours? I really don't get what you're on about. Have you read the rest of my post? Have you realized that in the real world there are things more important than open source software, like, for instance, getting work done?

Re:straight from MS FUD central ..

[Dragonslicer]

Straight out of the MS FUD manual. Like, let then use 'free' software as long as they us our Intellectual Property and Patent dues. When does your shift on slashdot finish ?

I'm confused. Are you trying to imply that there would be open standards that are burdened by patents and/or copyright? Wouldn't that not really be open?

Re:straight from MS FUD central ..

[HiThere]

Sorry, but open standards is the correct priority. The problem is that closed source software never supports open standards...at least not reliably. One version may, but then after the next patch update it won't, and you upgraded without noticing.

So even though open standards is the correct priority, they require open source software to be ensured.

Re:straight from MS FUD central ..

[Elektroschock]

1. You call for preferential treatment of open source and Linux migration and massive funding.
2. Microsoft lobbies waters it down to open standards or platform independence and moderate coexistence.
3. Win

Or on the procurement side:
1. You make buzz about Linux migration
2. Microsoft offers discounts.
3. Win

For getting those discounts governments and larged customers have to invest in alternatives as Linux. It would be not wise to play nice with Microsoft.

Other scenario:
1. You call for open standards
2. Microsoft redefines open standards as RAND and invests massively in lobbying, long struggle.
3. ???

Re:straight from MS FUD central ..

[Daengbo]

When you go for "standards," though, and let MS dictate, you end up with ODF that doesn't conform to ISO/IEC 26300:2006.

Re:straight from MS FUD central ..

[nxtw]

Sorry, but open standards is the correct priority. The problem is that closed source software never supports open standards...at least not reliably. One version may, but then after the next patch update it won't, and you upgraded without noticing.

So even though open standards is the correct priority, they require open source software to be ensured.

Fallacious. Some closed source software vendors do not implement open standards (in full or in part), but this has nothing to do with that software being closed source. These vendors ignore open standards as a business decision.

Some open standards don't even have complete open source implementations. How many fully complete ISO 32000-1 implementations (more commonly known as PDF 1.7) are there? How many are open source?

I am writing this on a closed-source browser (Opera), which aims for standards compliance.

Re:straight from MS FUD central ..

[HiThere]

A valid point, but if the software is closed, then one can't rely on it continuing to support open standards.

I agree that open standard implementation is what's important and also that frequently open source applications are slow to arrive. But when they do arrive one can count on them continuing to support the open standard as long as it has anyone interested in it. With close source software this is dependent on the good will of the company implementing it. And that's subject to change without notice.

Re:straight from MS FUD central ..

[tsa]

And who the hell modded this informative? Clueless moderators.

sovereignty

[CarpetShark]

Agreed. This is why Peter Quinn's sovereignty argument for OpenDocument in MA was so apt. It's not about Linux, but communicating lofty ideals like Free Software to government types is difficult. When you start talking about the ancient political documents like a constitution though, and government responsibility to preserve them in a neutral format, things become a lot clearer. Add in the Peruvian arguments for an openly competitive economy based around open standards in software, and it's clear that government's absolute responsibility is to choose free software and standards. So no, Linux should not be forced, but yes, free software should. Our taxes should not prop up individual corporations -- especially when that monopolizes their power and cripples other parts of the economy.

Re:sovereignty

[betterunixthanunix]

"Our taxes should not prop up individual corporations -- especially when that monopolizes their power and cripples other parts of the economy."

I agreed with everything else in your post, but here is where I have to disagree. Suppose the US government standardizes on free software -- do you really want tax dollars spent creating a massive government IT force, or would you rather the government contracted with Red Hat or Novell? It is not inherently bad for the government to contract with corporations -- in fact, this is why corporations were created in the first place. We should focus on the real issue, which is that software used by the government should be free-libre, except in certain cases involving military systems (missile control, RADAR, etc.).

Re:sovereignty

[Tubal-Cain]

, except in certain cases involving military systems (missile control, RADAR, etc.).

In which case we want software that was developed in-house.

Re:sovereignty

[CarpetShark]

No, what I'm saying is that, at the moment, the government(s) largely prop up one organisation's development: microsoft's. When stuck with microsoft's closed apps, the best a contractor can usually do is script some macros for office, or write a plugin. Maybe an add-on app, if they're lucky enough that their use cases fit that model. However, with open, standards compliant, free software, anyone can develop new features, even for the core operating systems in use, or the core office suite in use. Redhat could be contracted to provide government with OS, but Ubuntu might be preferred for a future upgrade. Currently, we don't have this freedom.

Re:sovereignty

[betterunixthanunix]

"No, what I'm saying is that, at the moment, the government(s) largely prop up one organisation's development: microsoft's."

Actually, the US government contracts with Microsoft, Red Hat, Novell, Sun, IBM, and various other companies. It is actually considered a problem, and one of the things Obama seeks to fix, because different branches and government agencies use different software and different file formats, which impedes communication between other agencies and the people.

"Redhat could be contracted to provide government with OS, but Ubuntu might be preferred for a future upgrade. Currently, we don't have this freedom."

What makes you think that switching from Red Hat to Canonical would be so easy? We are not talking about a single machine here, we are talking about thousands (millions?) of computers at a time, with various regulations on data retention. If the government standardized on RHEL, it is unlikely that a migration to another Linux, let alone a different kinda of OS altogether, would be a simple or easy move.

Re:sovereignty

[CarpetShark]

because different branches and government agencies use different software and different file formats, which impedes communication between other agencies and the people.

We seem to agree here.

What makes you think that switching from Red Hat to Canonical would be so easy?

Since we're talking about two distributions of the same applications, I think the burden of proof is on you. What makes you think they'd be incompatible, assuming competent admins who read any release notes or bug reports before upgrading? Note that I'm not talking about the standard sort of upgrade issues you get between windows 98 and windows 2000, or between OOo 2.x and OOo 3.x. That's simple stuff for any competent IT dept, and certainly any company with a multi-million dollar IT contract for government. I'm talking fundamental incompatibility, due to one company not having access to the specifications or patents that the previous company used.

We are not talking about a single machine here, we are talking about thousands (millions?) of computers at a time, with various regulations on data retention.

Deployment isn't easy, and never has been. I don't see anything relevant or special about it here though.

Re:sovereignty

[jbolden]

Red Hat's entire workforce is 2200. That wouldn't make a dent in government payrolls.

Me so horny?

[SoundGuyNoise]

Good thing software will be free. My mom only lets me spend $5.

Re:hooray! MORE POWER *TO* THEM...

[davidsyes]

If they can keep ms' grubby hands off of 75 million people, communist government or not, I'm ALL behind them. The corruption, as in any country, will never go away, but hopefully they can de-colonialize themselves of mshaft. It's the only way to TRY to be sure...

Re:It's amusing to watch Vietnam do what USA shoul

[Anonymous Coward]

When the government is only allowed to use is Linux, then yes, you've created a monopoly within that specific market segment. And governments are large markets in most economies.

And the Microsoft monopoly bit is pretty tired by now. There's Linux, OS X and a variety of smaller OS variants that are available. Using political force in this manner is worse in my opinion than any "unfair competitive practices" Microsoft has done in the past.

Change Hurts

[kenp2002]

Change Hurts
Big Changes Hurt in Big Ways
Small Changes Hurt in small Ways

Linux in Vietnam is the bandaid, some choose to remove them slowly, some, quickly.

Either way the bandaid comes off.

Communist and Socialist nations tend to be able to handle the big changes quicker through mandate while capitalists tend to peel slowly. TO each their own, I for one avoid getting cut in the first place...

no minister .. :)

[rs232]

I wonder when 'Le Doan Hop' the Minister of Information and Communications, is going to be relieved of his job and trashed in the press.

"I'm sure you'd like to hear from Peter Quinn, formerly CIO of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts"

Re:It's amusing to watch Vietnam do what USA shoul

[moderatorrater]

Why exactly should the US move to Linux? Can any single Linux company offer the support that the US government can get from Microsoft? Is Linux as easy to use as Windows for those who aren't technologically savvy? Can everyone use Thunderbird as well as they can use Outlook, and is the calendaring as good with Thunderbird as it is with Outlook?

The point of the matter is that one size does not fit all, and when it comes to desktop productivity Linux doesn't do as well as Windows. When it comes to servers, my father in law (who helps set up systems for the Air Force) tends to use a mix of Windows and Solaris, so there's no monopoly either way there. Why on earth should the government use open source when the closed source solutions make more sense for them?

Alpha Romeo

[Philip K Dickhead]

Linux Quattrofoglio spyder.

Re:Alpha Romeo

[JamesTRexx]

Is that backwards compatible with my 164 Q4?

Re:It's amusing to watch Vietnam do what USA shoul

[WillAffleckUW]

oh, I thought it was the black code in the OS they were objecting too ...

Linux is communist .. :)

[rs232]

"Communist and Socialist nations tend to be able to handle the big changes quicker through mandate while capitalists tend to peel slowly. TO each their own, I for one avoid getting cut in the first place..."

A novel and unique critique of dialectical materialism. The only real world experiment in communism collapsed under its own inefficiencies. As I recall, you couldn't even get razor blades in Moscow ..

Re:Linux is communist .. :)

[HiThere]

Russia, nor any other country, was ever communist. Russia had a government that was a cross between Leninism and Ivan the Terrible. China ... well, it seems different, but it sure isn't communist.

There were very good reasons why Marx said that communism had to FOLLOW the industrial revolution. We haven't yet reached the economy that Marx posited communism as being able to work in. (I think he was wrong, but don't blame him for dictatorships that owe more to the Russian Tsars and the Chinese Emperors.)

The actual communist communities lie in the past. They were all small and isolated communities. They usually had a very strong religious theme. (Attempts to recreate them in the '60s were nearly universal failures...but then so were the earlier communities. Oneida is an exception, but it evolved away from communism as it grew larger, and as the second generation succeeded the first.)

Marx was attempting to resolve what should happen when the wealth generated by machines far surpassed that generated by individual work. Ask yourself "What will we do when almost all labor is automated?" to get an idea of the problem he was trying to solve. And try to come up with a workable answer. Marx didn't even really clearly see the problem, but he caught a dim outline of it. It's a lot closer now, and we still don't have a workable answer.

(Warning: It's been around 4 decades since I read Das Kapital, so I may be remembering things incorrectly, but that's the problem I remember him addressing. And failing to either see clearly or to solve.)

Re:Linux is communist .. :)

[Elektroschock]

Marx was an intellectual and a great polemic writer. I would love to read his criticism of the Soviet empire.

Unanswered is the digital good scenario. Windows is "egalitarian" because it is all the same for everyone. As a rich man you cannot buy a better windows with less bugs. At least one rich man buys a better Linux.

You can buy the world's fastest x86 machine and in five years your poor neighbors do not want to receive the electronic waste from you because they run faster machines.

That's nice and all

[s4ltyd0g]

But there's something to be said for diversity. Find one vulnerability in one system and you've found a vulnerability for all.

Excel

[troll8901]

it always prints the entire document in a 1.5"x1" space...

Set Print Area? An accidentally filled cell somewhere down or to the right?

By Fiat??

[damn_registrars]

What does this have to do with Fiat? Is everyone in Vietnam going to be driving Cinquecentos soon?

Re:By Fiat??

[otis wildflower]

Fiat Lux.

Re:By Fiat??

[Failed Physicist]

fiat (plural fiats)

      1. An authoritative command or order to do something; an effectual decree.

compatibility problems ..

[rs232]

"The ability to use your favorite program to get a certain task accomplished without having to worry about compatibility problems" Compatibility wasn't a problem until the worlds chief software architect mandated it so. One of the first things computers were designed to do was talk to one another, it's all ones and noughts you know .. :)

FUD INJECTION COUNT:

01. Just an excuse to get a Windows discount ..
02. Linux is communist ..
03. it's open standards never Open Source ..
04. it's forced on the end users ..
05. you can't get work done with 'free' software ..

Re:compatibility problems ..

[abuelos84]

DUDE... CHILL.... -.-

Re:compatibility problems ..

[tsa]

Is Digg getting so bad now all the adolescent fanbois are flocking to slashdot? I think I will start reading at +2 instead of +1 to be rid of clueless people like you. You didn't even answer my post, just put in the standard fanboi reply. Get out of the basement for a while and look around. There's more to life than Linux you know.

Re:compatibility problems ..

[tsa]

Thanks, FishWithAHammer. Nice to see that there are still reasonable people on /.. I have the feeling that there are more and more fanbois here lately.

This distro will not include a browser.

[aapold]

Why?

Charlie don't surf!

Re:Decline of the LAMP stack

[morgan_greywolf]

Oh noes!!! LAMP is DYING!!!

Says the troll posting on probably one of the highest-traffic sites running a LAMP stack on the globe.

Kudos to Vietnam.

[john.picard]

I write this as chairs are being thrown in another part of the world: Kudos to Vietnam! I hope that more governments and businesses around the world will realize the savings that can be had because when costs are cut at these types of organizations, it means higher efficiency and lower prices. Software is a great area to cut costs, and the free software packages that Vietnam will adopt are mature, stable codebases.

Not just Linux

[Taxman415a]

I know no one reads TFA but it doesn't actually mention anything about requiring Linux. That was your wonderful submitter that seems to have gotten that part wrong. TFA isn't even very clear if the requirement is even to change the server OS or just what apps are installed on it.

Obligatory

[f00dif00]

All your computer are belong to Linux.

I'll believe it when I see it

[Tracy Reed]

They've been talking about this for years. I worked in Vietnam for a year three years ago and still visit a couple times a year and they were talking about it even then.

But so far I have never seen a computer running Linux there that I or a Linux user friend of mine didn't set up myself. And I am completely unable so far to find the actual text of the proclamation that says that they will use Linux. Nor have I been able to contact anyone who knows anything about it. They are probably just looking for leverage against Microsoft.

Why is it that nobody ever links to the actual text of the legislation or proclamation?

I really do hope they mean it.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[gujo-odori]

I lived and worked in Viet Nam as well (2003), and while I did see some computers running Linux there, they were all in the hands of individuals, except for a couple of LAN servers I did admin work on (one at my employer, another at one of our customers).

At the time I was there, two things about most computers in government office were very noticeable: 1) They were really old, and 2) Many of them were running Windows 9x, not 2000 or XP. Getting from there to modernity is probably easier with Linux, especially considering that licensed copies of Windows aren't exactly thick on the ground in VN. The whole time I was there, I only saw three Windows machines that I was sure had licensed copies, and those were three brand new Compaqs that I installed fresh from the box, paid for by Japanese ODA. Amazing that they weren't Japanese PCs, considering the source of the funds. Even more amazing that the only Japanese products on that project were some wireless routers (802.11B WAN product made for outdoor point to point use; our longest hop was around 5 km IIRC, using parabolic antennas).

Are you familiar with Vietlug? http://www.vnlinux.org/

KPLUG, huh? I'm from San Diego, too, but live in the Bay Area now. I'm from the Montgomery Field area, too, have been to a few KPUG meetings in 2003 before I took a job out of town. Me may have crossed paths in real life at some point.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Tracy Reed]

If you went to KPLUG meetings in 2003 it is a pretty sure bet that we did cross paths because I'm a regular attendee.

Yes, I am familiar with vietlug. It is pretty much all ethnic Vietnamese people living outside of Vietnam. I used to be on their linux discussion mailing list for a few years but I seem to have fallen off and not noticed.

The only real LUG action in Vietnam that I am aware of is being conducted by my friend Kevin Miller who lives in Sai Gon and has a website here: http://www.saigonnezumi.com/ It was through Vietlug that I met Kevin. He was the only person on that list who actually lives in Vietnam and he isn't Vietnamese! We actually held a LUG meeting and invited locals who attended a computer class in school:

http://tracyreed.org/photo-album/Vietnam/sai-gon-linux-users-group

First and only meeting afaik of the group. Most of those kids were there because their teacher told them to attend. There is nearly zero interest in Linux there aside from us ex-pats.

Finding actual Vietnamese using Linux who live in Vietnam is quite hard. The pressure to use Windows there is incredible. First Windows is "free" as in price there. Then there is the social pressure. Not many like to "rock the boat" or be different. Conform or else. And then there is a lack of interest in computing in general because they don't have the hacker culture or technological evolution that we have seen in the more developed countries. They didn't get the hype when growing up about how computers were someday going to rule everything and we'll all have Rosie the Robots cleaning our houses etc. While we were experiencing all that they were just hoping not to be killed and to have something to eat.

There is a serious cultural issue here that prevents Vietnam from taking advantage of Linux.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Clarious]

There is a serious cultural issue here that prevents Vietnam from taking advantage of Linux.

Yeah, they even go crazy with windows 7 just because the notepad & calculator look 'shinier with big, nice buttons'.

I am in HanoiLUG, so I have some infos about this, sure it won't mean in the next few months all computers of Vietnamese government will use FLOSS, I even doubt that there will be any changes at all, but this is just the beginning. At least some people realized that there are other options than MS softwares.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Tracy Reed]

Clarious, You seem like someone I should know. I would like to meet with you and HanoiLUG next time I am in Hanoi. Please email me at treed@tracyreed.org or IM at t_ashpool2000 on Yahoo. :)

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[gujo-odori]

I hear you on that cultural thing. My (VNese) wife has no interest in computers other than the apps. She doesn't really care at all about the underlying OS, and long had the only Windows machine in our house. After it died, I replaced it with a MacBook Pro and she's quite happy with it and likely wouldn't go back to Windows. I would have chosen Linux, but one of her core apps is Yahoo Messenger and voice and video are a must, which rules out basically any Linux IM solution.

There was another foreigner involved with VietLUG back when I was there, Andy something, and he was in Saigon at the time. We got to dinner at a brew pub once with some local VNese Linux users, but it was a very small group. As you say, VietLUG is made up mostly of Viet Kieu.

Interestingly, one area where there does seem to be some kind of hacker culture is robotics. I lived in Japan for 8 years, and every years there's some robotics competition, and for three years running while I was there, some team from a VNese university won the competition. Of course, it could just be that robotics are big at that school. I'm not into them myself, so I never checked to see how many ordinary people might be into that sort of thing.

I'll check out Kevin's site, thanks for that.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Tracy Reed]

Yes, I met Andy when I was in Saigon also. You sure you weren't there in 2005? We met at some Indian type place which had a bar etc. in district 1. If you were there in 2005 I bet we met at that meeting.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[gujo-odori]

No, I was definitely there in 2K2-2K3, and made a short trip back for a vacation in the fall of 2004. I'll drop you an email so we can stop communicating through /.

Mod parent up!

[pbhj]

Mod the parent up, they actually read part of the summary .. after posting, but hey.

At least I'm pretty sure it must be in the summary somewhere.

hey,

[toby]

Dumbasses tagging this 'communism' - it's nothing to do with communism - more like COMMON-SENSE-ISM.

Re:hey,

[Vegeta99]

Except that Vietnam is a communist country. The US had a really nasty war with them, remember?

Re:hey,

[CarbonShell]

Yep, killed over a million of them because they would not have the government we wanted them to have and still they don't like the US.

And to finally finish them off we will give them FREE stuff.. haha, that will show them how capitalism rules!

Re:hey,

[toby]

Oh believe me, we won't forget that war in a hurry - or the US' psychotic obsession with the "Red menace".

But this story has nothing to do with communism. This kind of pragmatic policy has been enacted by many governments you'd call "democratic", as well; it is indeed just common sense. Especially if one's country is not a cosy "ally" of the US.

Public information and assets must not be locked behind proprietary walls. In any country.

It's all good

[sheldon]

This is a Communist government, they're quite used to forcing people to do things they don't want.

Re:It's all good

[Clarious]

Yes, because everyone here want to use pirated software :)

So I think forcing here is a good idea.

I'm sure the Gates Foundation can help, too

[hirschma]

Bill can kick in a few billion to fight some disease - money that will at least partially go into government official pockets - get some good PR, and keep Vietnam buying MS.

Cynical? Perhaps, but it worked in India.

OT: Your sig

[Amazing Quantum Man]

I've always heard it as "M.E.'s build weapons. Civ E's build targets".

Re:OT: Your sig

[Tubal-Cain]

Civ E's build targets".

There is no "E" in the Roman Numberal system, IIRC. So there will never be a Civ E.
Or perhaps you mean "e" as in e=mc^2?

Re:OT: Your sig

[Eternauta3k]

Duh, it's in hex

Re:It's amusing to watch Vietnam do what USA shoul

[FishWithAHammer]

RedHat and Novell are big, yes.

Neither even approach the size of Microsoft.

Nor does the necessary infrastructure even exist with regard to training. (MCSEs aren't worth a lot, no, but nothing both comparable and as available exist; I've never seen a Linux-based cert that would be worthwhile in its current form. For some apps, sure, but you don't hire an MCSE to run a MSSQL database server, you hire someone who's got MSSQL certifications, as you would an Oracle or MySQL box.)

Where Linux does not fit?

[jotaeleemeese]

It is used in embeded devices and in grid computing, and all beasts in between.

Linux is so flexible it is scary, specially for monopolists.

Zero wing (more like a flipper)

[LandruBek]

All of their base belong to Tux.

Even More Insidious

[0xG]

1) BalmerGates offers a sweet deal
2) The country moves everything to Vista and Server 2008
3) The country has a dispute with the US government
4) Under USA PATRIOT or similar spook legislation, Microsoft is told to disable all KMS servers and MAKs issued to Vetnam
5) Wait 180 days
6) Every computer in the country "tilts"
7) The Vietnamese government is utterly crippled
8) ...

Re:Even More Insidious

[thexile]

9) ???
10) Profit!!!

Re:Decline of the LAMP stack

[FishWithAHammer]

IIS7 is remarkably performant, even compared to Apache2, and I haven't seen a significant security update come down the pipe for it or ASP.NET in quite some time.

The initial cost outlay of a Windows machine is higher, of course, but did you consider the other costs? Maintaining an application written in .NET is a lot easier than doing the same in, say, Perl or PHP (unless your staff is universally comprised of language virtuosos, which strikes me as unlikely). Their development teams may already be proficient at .NET. I know that the common wisdom around here is that a good programmer should be able to pick whatever the hell they need to use and be able to get up to speed, but a lot of programmers aren't good but are nominally productive with what they already know. And the support Microsoft offers to big companies is really, really good. (Red Hat and Novell offer good support too, but neither are the same kind of behemoths that Microsoft is.)

There are good reasons to pick something that isn't what you personally like, whether it's proprietary or not.

Getting work done.. same old FUD.

[jotaeleemeese]

You can get your work done with any reasonable tool.

Not using the tools available in Linux is a lame excuse for not switching. The tools are adequate and in some cases superior to the competition.

Open-source support for Vietnamese language

[D H NG]

I've been observing the growth of Vietnamese-language software for the past decade, and I have to say that open-source growth have been outpacing proprietary growth. In a country where the piracy rate tops 90%, major software companies don't see much incentive to support the Vietnamese language. With more than 80 million speakers, the Vietnamese language has about 8 times as many users as Swedish, a commonly supported language. The repertoire of open-source software supporting Vietnamese grew from virtually nothing in 2003 to support in most major Linux applications in 2009. This includes some of the most common Vietnamese-language keyboard drivers such as Unikey and even expanded to the fast-growing Vietnamese-language Wikipedia. At the same time, Vietnamese-language support among proprietary software barely grew; IE still doesn't have a Vietnamese-language version, and Word does not have a Vietnamese spellchecker. The only notable exception to this is Yahoo!, who has a dominant presence in the online market.

Re:Open-source support for Vietnamese language

[Clarious]

Too bad, most people here use the English version even if there is a Vietnamese one. If you want to use a computer here, you *MUST* know English.

The reason for this is that people are 'used' to use English software, they don't know how to use Vietnamese one, how ironic.

There are many reason for this, one of the most important reasons is that there is no standard for words that are related to computer, 'file' = 'tep', 'tap tin', ' ho so' etc.... everyone use their own version of that word. And I am saying this as someone who is translating OO.o to Vietnamese. Vietnamese government is trying to switch to OO.o/ODF completely, so they can save 20m$ buying MS Office.

Re:Open-source support for Vietnamese language

[DNS-and-BIND]

Gosh, you think that might be because the Swedes got off their asses and contributed? Why would any company work on support for a nation that is just going to steal anyway?

Re:Decline of the LAMP stack

[bjourne]

The initial cost outlay of a Windows machine is higher, of course, but did you consider the other costs? Maintaining an application written in .NET is a lot easier than doing the same in, say, Perl or PHP (unless your staff is universally comprised of language virtuosos, which strikes me as unlikely).

Citation needed or something. I only have cursory experience with .NET, but it seems inconceivable to me that it would be "a lot easier" than PHP. Do you mind explaining that part?

Soon afterwards

[DontPanic6x9]

Soon after this announcement, several pro-mac Buddhist Monks set themselves in fire in protest.

Re:It's amusing to watch Vietnam do what USA shoul

[Haeleth]

Linux cannot be a monopoly, by definition. A monopoly is when a single entity has overwhelming power in a market. But Linux isn't an entity, it's a bit of software. (For the same reason, it doesn't make sense to talk about a Windows monopoly, only a Microsoft monopoly.)

Next, the reason monopolies are bad is that they guarantee income to certain people without any need to deliver good value, and prevent other people from competing in that market segment. But mandating Linux wouldn't do that. Anyone who wants to sell Linux can do so. Even Microsoft would be free to compete in a Linux-only market.

Re:There is no 2nd Vietnam war!

[mjwx]

If you go to any asian country, you find stacks and stacks of CDs and DVDs filled with mislabelled stuff from Microsoft to Universal studios. So, the thought of Vietnam actually paying for a bunch of Windows licenses just seems rather remote to me.

I would be willing to bet that Microsoft has been quietly watching Windows get rolled out all across Vietnam, knowing that, they don't have but a dozen licenses for the entire country, and a million copies of Windows, and just let Vietnam build all of their infrastructure on top of it.

Not quite, in SE Asia copyright enforcement is rather strict for governments and businesses due to pressure being placed on these governments by the west (primarily the US). If a business does not pay licensing costs they will receive a visit from a law enforcement agency as the government often gets a slice of the licensing fee. This is how laws are enforced in Asia, when a government member has something to gain, most often money. Corruption is an economy in itself in SE Asia.

Then, once they see the Vietnamese are hooked, they sent in a salesteam to ask them to pay for it, or they will shut the country down. Vietnam of course issues its edict, but both they know and Microsoft know, that Vietnam now belongs to Steve Ballmer and Bill Gates.

I really cant see this happening. It is far more likely that the Vietnamese government will find a way to screw Microsoft over, much in the same way as the Chinese did who now have the source code to windows, so any moves MS makes against china can be countered. Vietnam and much of Asia now have some very talented coders, if MS wants to go head to head with them they will find themselves in an uphill battle.

What you don't understand is that what you see as a tourist in Asia is not what is really happening and this is understandable and not meant as an attack, the Asian tourist industry works very hard to keep certain aspects of their societies out of public view. It in many ways is a facade, meant to give you an extremely positive impression while not allowing you to see what really goes on. The concept of Face is very important in Asia, if MS were to do anything that would make Vietnam lose face or even appear to lose face they will quickly find an entire country working against them.

Vietnam is communist in name only. You seem to understand the free market is alive and well there as it is in the rest of SE Asia, the only real difference between the government of Vietname and the Government of Thailand is that Vietnam does not have semi-regular coups.

Re:Decline of the LAMP stack

[FishWithAHammer]

.NET (when I say .NET, I refer primarily to VB.NET and C#, not the stuff on the DLR and the like) is a strongly typed, very structured environment. It's a lot more conducive to writing "clean" code--while it comes at the price of terseness, .NET code tends to flow better, be more readable (I hate "self-documenting" because it's a stupid term, but it almost fits here), and, at least in my experience, tends to be more easily picked up by another developer. It's hard to explain unless you've had it happen, but I'll try.

Whenever I've come onto a new PHP project or had somebody new jump into one of mine, there's been a rather long period of acclimatization; there's a lot of different ways something can be done for a lot of basic tasks, even as basic as logins. With .NET, there's only really One Good Way to perform most tasks, which means that developers generally share a development style that isn't the same in a lot of other languages. (The holy wars such as 1TBS versus Allman don't exist in C# mostly because the Visual C# IDE enforces indenting, bracing, etcetera. It's one of the reasons, I think, that the Mono guys have trouble getting and keeping contributors--people who already know C# look at their coding standards and cringe.)

It also helps that .NET has a ton of stuff built-in to prevent needless code reuse. PEAR has a bunch of it too, but PEAR isn't built right in and integrated with IDEs' intellisense.

I've got about four years of experience with .NET and have been using PHP since PHP3. If I'm working by myself, the choice actually goes to PHP (because I am comfortable with my own style and would rather use my Linux server for applications for myself). If I'm working with a group of people who I've worked with for a long time and I know won't bail, it's a toss-up--either works for us, depending on the situation. But if it's a project where I may be pulling in new developers on a semi-regular basis, like at a "big-name" corporation where there's some regular turnover? Give me .NET any day.

Who is next?

[mevets]

Nicaragua? Iraq?

Re:Decline of the LAMP stack

[deek]

IIS7 is remarkably performant, even compared to Apache2, and I haven't seen a significant security update come down the pipe for it or ASP.NET in quite some time.

  That's great to hear. I help to manage a couple of IIS6 servers, running some .NET applications, and security updates have always been a pain. Never mind that it often requires a server reboot. The IIS6 process also takes about a minute to restart, if I need to do so. That's a huge amount of time compared to the few seconds it takes Apache. It's not even taking into account the occasional IIS freeze when trying to restart. I have to use pskill to terminate the process properly, and then finally start up IIS. There goes 3 or 4 minutes of service downtime.

Maintaining an application written in .NET is a lot easier than doing the same in, say, Perl or PHP.

  Arrgh, don't talk to me about maintaining .NET applications. A program is only as easy to maintain, as the programmer allows it to be. I've had some painful memories of fixing issues in our .NET applications.

  Ease of maintenance may be better encouraged in some languages, but I've seen spaghetti code in pretty much every language I've come across. The only conclusion I can make is that language is irrelevant. Only the programmer is really important.

  Funnily enough, I've never had so much of an issue with the perl programs I maintain. For all its reputation of obfuscation, I've never had a problem with tracking down issues with our perl code. Then again, that particular programmer did a nice job of laying out the structure neatly.

There are good reasons to pick something that isn't what you personally like, whether it's proprietary or not.

  Bugger that for a joke. Give me something that I like, and I'll like coding in it, whether it's proprietary or not. Because I like it, you know that I will take pride in my work and do a great job.

  But, you never know what you like until you try it. So far, I have to say I'm liking Linux much more than Windows.

Gentoo by Fiat

[brilanon]

Gentoo is the greatest Linux distribution. Are they using it in Vietnam. What about Yellow Dog

It is good

[Clarious]

... because VNese government aren't switching from legal copies of windows, but from pirated ones. Even in the government sector, 50%+ softwares are pirated.

Also

[kaiwai]

Lets remember that as part of becoming integrated into the economy - Vietnam will be told taht they have to crack down on piracy.

Do they crack down on piracy and push up the cost of doing business in Vietnam by having all departments use Windows + Office, and thus all those who interact with the government having to have said software - or is it smarted to start off using opensource software now given that they are pretty much starting from a clean slate? They've made a good move - and I'll put money on it people will be looking in and asking their own government why Microsoft is given multi-billion dollar contracts when Vietnam's public service is just as productive (if not more) using Linux/OpenOffice.org as they would using Windows.

Re:Also

[donaldm]

By picking open source for the Vietnam Government this is the start of a trend that will snowball to the public and private sector since if anyone wishes to correspond with any Government department they will have to use open formats which is one step from saying "Oh stuff it why should I pay for MS Windows and proprietary applications when I can use a Linux distribution with cheaper or free applications and still get my business done and save money in the process".

To those vendors who say. "My software does not run under Linux but MS Windows and I can't see why I should change". All the Vietnam Government has to say to those vendors. "Well guess who misses out on a Government contact" :-)

Re:Also

[Daengbo]

You hit the nail on the head. Thailand made almost the same decree some six years ago for its government computers. They needed to appear tough on piracy for some reason.

MS didn't want that, so came in, offered to "legitimize" all the government's MS operating systems (by giving them free Win98), then signed a huge contract with Thailand over it. The FOSS movement went away.

Whatever motivated the first declaration (to move to FOSS) also went away, because Thailand immediately went back to being a hotbed of piracy.

Re:It's amusing to watch Vietnam do what USA shoul

[Chosen Reject]

Who/what exactly are you responding to? The GP didn't mention Linux and neither did the article.

Re:I got a question

[Clarious]

To cut cost.

Yep, 90% software in Vietnam are pirated (I doubt it even go to 98%+), but the government can't use to many pirated softwares.

And FYI, the last time VN bought MS Office, they have to pay 20m$, and it is a *big* amount of money in VN.

Re:It's amusing to watch Vietnam do what USA shoul

[Clarious]

They 'recommend' to use FLOSS over closed one, I haven't RTFA yet, but it is exactly what they say in Vietnam.

And they should forbid all pirated software too, if they do that, Vietnam will be FLOSS heaven :)

Re:The best part of it is easily overseen.

[Clarious]

Why mod this flamebait?

It is true, here is what exactly Bill Gates said:

"It's easier for our software to compete with Linux when there's piracy than when there's not"

Re:Decline of the LAMP stack

[Elektroschock]

fully agree. But you miss the point that this is about a scenario for procurement negotiations.

I hate it when government specifies a technology -

[CustomDesigned]

they should specify a characteristic or result. Like mandating open (and archivable) file formats and or open source. Even mandating particular file formats is preferable to mandating a OS technology.

Banning incandescent bulbs was dumb. Our office had bathroom lights on a motion sensor. Good idea. Then they replaced the incandescent bulbs with compact fluorescent - but left the motion sensor. Now they have to replace the mercury laden bathroom bulbs every few months (fluorescents hate frequent power cycles).

Re:Who Needs Choices?

[abuelos84]

*who* decides what kind of software a Govt will use?... You? STOP TROLLING This policy is related to the gov't computers, not everyone in Vietnam, the guy that will use OSS in the office can use whatever he wants in his house...

Microsoft would plead the Fifth

[tepples]

The US Govt could, pretty easily, simply mandate that Microsoft Windows be given to them for free.

Wouldn't that violate Microsoft's Fifth Amendment right to "just compensation" for the US Government's taking of Microsoft's copyright property for public use?

Re:Decline of the LAMP stack

[!eopard]

The initial cost outlay of a Windows machine is higher, of course, but did you consider the other costs?

Have you considered how much it costs to prove compliance with Microsoft's licence agreements? This is something we have to do at least annually, and there are millions of $$$ tied up in developing and implementing systems to do so, plus there are the $$$ spent keeping staff employed purely for managing these things. I'd much rather have that money spent on open source development, though it would mean finding a new job....

I thought ....

[PPH]

... Fiat built cars.

<rimshot/>

Over reaching government mandate

[MrGHemp]

I love the idea of them using more Linux and other open source products. BUT... I'm thinking having the government mandate that every thing must be open source is a bad thing. Basically, it should be up to the people actually using and implementing the systems to figure out the best solution. Sometimes it's open source, sometimes the open source options don't suit the needs as well as a piece of paid software. This is going to limit options and make some people's jobs a lot harder than necessary.

Obligatory troll

[Brandybuck]

FreeBSD: Unlike Linux, we won't send the cops around to make sure you're using the officially approved operating system!

It's real and its coming

[ug93tad]

My dad works for one of those provincial government agencies, and according to him, they're installing Ubuntu. Been trying to convince him to use Fedora !!

Re:I can believe that.

[renegadesx]

Tell that to the free societies that didn't even have software!

Yet another reason to learn Viet.

[Qbertino]

I've lived in a town in Germany with one of the largest Vietnam communities and also knew a few Vietnam expats. The best thing I like about the language is that they adopted variants of the Latin glyphset as their written language back in the day, which makes Viet relatively easy to read for westeners. I actually started learning a little Viet but didn't carry on with it. Maybe I should pick up some classes or something, now that I'll also be able to use my favourite OS in it. 'Can never hurt to learn a new language, and from what I can tell the vietnam girls - at least those I know - are sweeet. :-)

Only on slashdot...

[ryzvonusef]

I can't believe it! This an article on LINUX, and all people are talking about are cars! Oh the irony... On topic, There is a Vietnamese Linux Distro, Hacao linux http://hacao.com/

Äiáu nÃy là rá¥t, r&#

[aunt edna]

Äiáu nÃy là rá¥t, rá¥t tin tá't. Xin vui lÃng nÃi chuyán vái hÃng xÃm cáa bán lán và Ä'áf cho há biát nháng lá£i Ãch cáa viác tá't má(TM)t trong nháng ý tÆáYng nhÆ thá nÃy. Which, being translated, means: "This is very, very good news. Please talk to your large neighbour and let them know the benefits of good ideas like this one." http://vdict.com/?autotranslation Then again, looking at the oh-so mangled preview, it could mean "Large man chews neighbour's nuts off in mistaken impression they're threatening world peace." Or something.

Fiat makes computers?

[Hillgiant]

Man, considering the quality of their cars... Lets just say you should be very careful about letting the blue smoke out.

Re:Decline of the LAMP stack

[FishWithAHammer]

No, I don't. I've seen this too many times for it to come off as anything else. I was pushing this point because of the idiotic first post by the AC. :)

Re:Decline of the LAMP stack

[FishWithAHammer]

That's great to hear. I help to manage a couple of IIS6 servers, running some .NET applications, and security updates have always been a pain. Never mind that it often requires a server reboot. The IIS6 process also takes about a minute to restart, if I need to do so. That's a huge amount of time compared to the few seconds it takes Apache. It's not even taking into account the occasional IIS freeze when trying to restart. I have to use pskill to terminate the process properly, and then finally start up IIS. There goes 3 or 4 minutes of service downtime.

IIS7 is ridiculously nice in comparison to IIS6. I actually went out and paid for a Windows Server 2008 license in order to run it on my dev box. One of my clients transferred three servers over from 2k3 to 2k8 and IIS7--and managed to downsize to two servers because of the improvements in allowing .NET apps to play nicely together (previously the third box was running an intranet app because otherwise it tended to make another box unstable, on IIS6).

Arrgh, don't talk to me about maintaining .NET applications. A program is only as easy to maintain, as the programmer allows it to be. I've had some painful memories of fixing issues in our .NET applications.

    Ease of maintenance may be better encouraged in some languages, but I've seen spaghetti code in pretty much every language I've come across. The only conclusion I can make is that language is irrelevant. Only the programmer is really important.

Yes and no. Like I said upthread a bit, I find that .NET is more likely to nudge a programmer in the right direction.

Funnily enough, I've never had so much of an issue with the perl programs I maintain. For all its reputation of obfuscation, I've never had a problem with tracking down issues with our perl code. Then again, that particular programmer did a nice job of laying out the structure neatly.

I'm a little biased in that I absolutely hate Perl (give me ONE way to do any given thing so I don't have to know all the different ways when somebody else is writing code), but sure, a good programmer can alleviate any issues like that.

Bugger that for a joke. Give me something that I like, and I'll like coding in it, whether it's proprietary or not. Because I like it, you know that I will take pride in my work and do a great job.

You misunderstand; that was referring to the moron I replied to who was going "bawwwwwww, they isn't using my pet open source softwares, how do I annoy them best?!"--there are good reasons to use what he doesn't personally like. ;-)

But, you never know what you like until you try it. So far, I have to say I'm liking Linux much more than Windows.

For a server, I prefer it because it's cheap and I don't have to screw with it once it's set up (although, to be fair, setting up a Linux server properly, for me at least, tends to take an unpleasantly long time--but I have more experience setting up and managing Windows boxes). The only problem I have is that the software running on top of it kind of sucks. Apache is nice, of course, and well-built, as is PostgreSQL, but the languages--ergh. PHP? My preferred *nix language because I can get stuff done fast, but I'm under no delusions that it's not a completely craptastic language. (Weak typing? Bad Thing.) Python? Better, but ugly and annoying. Ruby? Crap crap crap, though there are some impressive things like Merb being built atop that crap foundation. Perl? Ehhhhhhh.

If mod_mono worked worth a damn with Apache, I'd switch over all my stuff to Mono development tomorrow. (It's not like I can't just plug in a different database to my ADO.NET stuff. And it'd be cheaper to sell over the long run.)

Re:Decline of the LAMP stack

[FishWithAHammer]

And one of mine is "use what works best," not "use what some fat greybeard says meets his idiotic standards for 'freedom'."

I'm free to recommend to clients Windows or Linux servers and apps that run on them as I see fit. That's freedom. RMS wants me to stick to shit he and his cronies have vetted as being OK by them. That's not freedom.

Re:Decline of the LAMP stack

[FishWithAHammer]

No, I didn't; that's a good point. I do contracting work for small and medium-sized businesses more than those very large ones, so I can't speak to that. But even despite that, there's a pretty good chance that it's still cheaper over the long term--though any business worth its salt will take a look and figure that out for themselves rather than just picking one or the other because they like it better.

Actually

[toby]

It was more like 3 or 4 million. Asymmetric warfare is like that; ask the Gazans.

Re:It's amusing to watch Vietnam do what USA shoul

[WillAffleckUW]

And neither Red Hat nor Novell have game console divisions, or manage large stock and bond holdings ...

Your point?

There are MySQL courses run by them. Quite a few. Even in Seattle.

Re:Decline of the LAMP stack

[FishWithAHammer]

Rumors aren't SLAs. Nice try.

Actual cost of Changing

[cyberblade]

People always talk about the cost of switching from Windows to Linux. Yes, switching does cost a lot for a company (here the Vietnamese government is just the part of a large company). What people usually miss is that outside of the first world those costs are usually much, much lower. This is because of the disparity between wages and license fees for software. For example, in the US if you were to lose 2 weeks of work from an employee for retraining them you're looking at several thousand dollars in cost-so saving the couple hundred in license fees is all lost. It is not cost effective for most companies in the US to switch from Windows to Linux on the basis of license fees alone. Simple. Overseas it's a different story. I do not know the particulars for Vietnam, but I have spent several years in the Philippines, and some time in Thailand and Bangladesh. That couple hundred dollar license fee-it covers a persons monthly salary or more. Yes, you have to hire some extra people to handle the change, the retraining, etc. But you can pay for them all that first year with what you would have spent in license fees, the next year you're saving. When you add to that all the security benefits, the uptime, stability, etc. It's really a wonder more countries don't take this approach.

Total PCs in vietnam

[gluliverk]

Maybe in all Vietnam is no more than 100 PCs :)