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First Flight of Jet Powered By Algae-Fuel
s31523 writes "Today a US airline carrier conducted a 90 minute test flight with one of its engines powered by a 50/50 blend of biofuel and normal aircraft fuel. This was the first flight by a US carrier after other airlines have reported trying similar flights. In February 2008, a Virgin 747 flew from London to Amsterdam partly using a fuel derived from a blend of Brazilian babassu nuts and coconuts. At the end of December, one engine of an Air New Zealand 747 was powered by a 50/50 blend of jatropha plant oil and standard A1 jet fuel."
It's like a car... no, wait it's not...
fp!
Eew. Algae. What's next, a flight powered by athlete's foot? It's great that we're coming up with alternatives and it could be worse, but I'm wondering what this will make the airports and flights smell like.
Bio-fuel from algae is going to be an interesting field. It's easy to grow, difficult to harvest, and takes a lot of it to make into fuel. But it doesn't take up valuable cropland like corn does and really can be grown anywhere you're willing to build tanks. Solix (http://www.solixbiofuels.com/) is one such company working on the issue who see the potential of building tanks by power plants and then using the CO2 emissions to feed the algae.
Putting those millions, nay, billions of LIVING organisms in such terrible working conditions is a crime against humanity.
* 1 Case Regular Pint size Mason Jars ( Used for canning)
* 2 Boxes Contact 12 hour time released tablets.
* 3 Bottles of Heet.
* 4 feet of surgical tubing.
* 1 Bottle of Rubbing Alchohol.
* 1 Gallon Muriatic Acid ( Used for cleaning concrete)
* 1 Gallon of Coleman's Fuel
* 1 Gallon of Aceton
* 1 Pack of Coffee Filters
* 1 Electric Skillet ( If you don't know what iam talking about i will have pics later)
* 4 Bottles Iodine Tincture 2% (don't get the declorized it won't work)
* 2 Bottles of Hydrogen peroxide
* 3 20 0z Coke Bottles (Plastic type)(with Lids/caps)
* 1 Can Red Devils Lye
* 1 Pair of sharp scissors
* 4 Boxes Book Matches (try to get the ones with brown/red striker pads)
* 1 pyrodex baking dish
* 1 Box execto razor blades single sided
* 1 digital scale that reads grams
* 2 gallons distilled water \
* 1 Roll Aluminum foil tape
That's what you would have to go buy if you wanted to make meth.
First things first -- the Iodine Crystals. Take one 20 oz, plastic Coke Bottle and pour 4 Bottles 2% tincture into it.
Add Hydrogen Peroxide to this. Use only 1/2 a bottle of Hydrogen peroxide. After this you know, the gallon jug that the Muriatic acid comes in take the cap off and fill this cap level with the acid. Add the acid to the coke bottle (Place in a freezer for at least 30 mins).
While the Iodine crystals are being made we are going to extract the Phsuedo from the Contacts. You are going to need a towel for this so go get one. Take the pills out of one box, add it to one of the mason jars fill with rubbing alchohol just enough to cover the pills let set for 3 minutes. Remove pills and take the towel and wipe the top coating off the pills this will remove the wax. Do the same with the other box of Contacts as well, after this add those wiped off pills only 10 to a clean mason jar. On top of this add 1 bottle of Heat do the same for the other box of Contact. Let theese two mason jars with pills, heat stand for 30 minutes. Then shake the jars till pills are completly broke down then let the jars sit again for 4 hours or until the Heats is completly clear . Once clear cyphon the heat off (Not the powder stuff at the Bottom you don't want this it will fuck your dope up).
Well anyway syphon the heat off with a piece of the sergical tubing syphon this into a pyrodex baking dish place in microwave on high till the heat is almost evaporated. Take out of microwave. Now plug up your electric plate set the pyrodex dish on this on about 180 deg continue evaporating till you get a white powder on the pyrodex (Carefull not the burn the phsudo if it turns yellow it's burned) after you get it dried take a razor blade and scrape this powder up. (put this asside for later use)
Now we are going to get the red phosphorus from the book matches take a pair of scissors and cut along the edge of the phosphorus do the whole four boxes of match book matches then take 1 small coffee cup will work to this coffee cup add about 1/4 the way with Acetone dip the match book strike pads into the acetone for 10 seconds this will loosen the phosphorus so it will be easier to scrape with the razor blades. ( put the phosphorus in an empty match book box to let dry. Now it's time to get the iodine crystals get a clean mason jar on top of this place 1 coffee filter and pour the contents of the iodine +muriatic+Hydrogen Peroxide into the filter ( do it slowly don't over pour) well once you get though with the filtering on top of the coffee filter will be a black substance ( This is iodine crystals) dry them by wraping in more coffee filters till you get a pretty good thick pile around the original filter place on ground and step on it to get the rest of the liquids off save this for the cook.
next take your digital scales wiegh your pills first say you had 2 grams of pill powder then weigh out an equal amount of iodin
I think it's great that they're testing, but that isn't the issue, is it? Isn't the real problem in getting the production up to a practical level?
Politicians complicate life - logic is sacrificed on the altar of political expediency.
the plane could fly solely using two African swallows with a string around the plane, such as they would if they were carrying coconuts.
Due to the low Energy Return on Energy Invested inherent to biofuels, you can't really make the stuff too far from its point of use, as the transport of the material would exceed its energy value. Jet aircraft are insanely inefficient and guzzle fuel at prodigious rates, and require fuel that has a high energy density. As a consequence I do not see biofuel for jets as anything but a stop gap measure.
I suggest you move to where you like to live, so you can plan out your future, because in a few short decades, you're not going anywhere cheaply or quickly.
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
It is well known that biofuels can (at a cost) be refined to meet most specifications. Providing there is some mineral fuel in the blend to prevent microbial contamination and growth, using this should cause no problems apart from cost. But since jet kerosene is generally untaxed, it is harder to subsidise biofuel replacements than it is for road fuels.
Is this really an Environmentally-friendly change, or just ensuring that it's a fuel that can be supplied long-term (not limited like fossil fuels)?
Consider these points before agreeing that it truly benefits the environment:
- what energy and chemicals goes into the growing, harvesting, and processing of the plants to make it into fuel? What CO2/pollution does that create?
- the land used to grow the crops... are we displacing food crops? Would that land otherwise have sequestered CO2 long term (benefitting us), whereas now we're taking that carbon and putting it back into the atmosphere?
It's all about "additionality"... comparing the results of using the new fuel type to the alternatives as a whole. It's hard to come up with solutions that truly make an impact today - until technology makes producing these things in the lab easy (algae seems the most promising).
MadCow.
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
Fly me to Bikini Bottom! I'm ready, I'm ready!!!
Yeah, my karma sucks....but so do the mods.
Why are these tests being performed with live aircraft rather than with a jet engine in a lab somewhere? Perhaps they want to see how these fuels perform in real-world, high altitude situations. Or more cynically, perhaps the airlines just want to make headlines and appear to care about the environment.
Into the crapper.
I'm all for biofuels and algae is certainly promising, but AFAIK, it's nowhere near industrial production yet. (cellulosic ethanol is getting there though)
Note that it says:
They don't say how much algae-derived biofuel was in that mix. I'm guessing this is rather a way for the company involved to get attention and hence, more funding. I suppose the ends justify the means, though. It takes a lot of funding to start test plants for industrial production.
My ass has been biofuel powered for years!!!! Dutch ovens rock!!!
If we are going to burn food we might as well pack it in right now.
A US airline carrier
Is rather vague. Would it kill the editors to read the first line of the article itself to see
The 90-minute flight by a Continental Boeing 737-800 went better than expected, a spokesperson said.
Considering how poorly many of the carriers are doing in terms of finances and customer satisfaction (not to mention customer service) it could be useful to know which one is trying the biofuel, even if it was a short test.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
It looks like the world's elite have mostly given up on technology as a solution to increasing scarcity/cost of (jet) fuel and decided to solve the problem instead by reducing the availability of air travel. The price of ever more scarce kerosene doesn't increase when it is no longer economical for most people to fly and a great many carriers have gone bust due to the drop in custom.
I think in the near future air travel will once again cease to be a mode of mass transit and return to the exclusive realm of the super-rich. In this case it won't matter what fuels the jets as there will be more than enough of it at an acceptable (economic/environmental) cost to go round.
"I bless every day that I continue to live, for every day is pure profit."
The more science progresses, the close we move to Gilligan's Island. Who knew The Professor was so ahead of our time?
Please keep in mind when reading articles like this that biofuel does not automatically mean that the fuel is any more ecological than regular fossile fuels.
The bio-prefix comes from greek meaning "life", and used with the word "fuel" it can be almost any non-ecologic stuff...
In many ways liquid hydrogen would be an ideal aviation fuel. It is clean, has a high energy/weight ratio, it has already been demonstrated ( The Russians developed a Hydrogen passenger Jet during the first Oil crisis ), it scales and because airlines have much more predictable traffic patterns than does your home car, you don't need to store it for days or weeks, meaning the cooling and insulation systems can be much simpler.
The catch is the cost of producing hydrogen in an environmentally friendly manner. Renewable and nuclear energy sources can produce it from electrolysis of water, but even the most advanced and experimental schemes only achieve an efficiency of about 50% using already expensive electricity, and that does not include the energy needed to compress and liquefy it.
blah blah blah Dunkin Donut shops, blah blah blah
Mmmmm... Donuts.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
Eew. Algae. What's next, a flight powered by athlete's foot?
You don't EAT the damn stuff dude, you burn it! Who the hell CARES what it's made of? Sure seems like a lot less trouble and easier on the earth than digging deep into the earth and dredging up old dead dinosaurs to burn.
I'm also hoping it shuts up the idiots who jump up and down yelling "but how will we feed the children?!?!" whenever someone advocates biofuels. BIO in biofuels does NOT equal FOOD. If I recall, algal blooms are in OVERabundance due to human activity (our detergents ending up in water and supplying phosphates to grow the stuff in excess--tainting our water and killing fish, etc). Seems like an elegant solution to me.
Athletes foot wouldn't be next, but I can thing of another abundant biofuel source that we have a hard time eliminating and that nobody would eat: fecal waste. Everything from poultry litter and cow manure to even human sewerage. How is THAT for gross?
Also, with biofuels, the PROCESSED end product is chemically similar or even identical to conventional hydrocarbon fuels. If you run straight corn oil in your car of COURSE it'll smell like the fryer at the local burger joint, but you don't run straight algae in a jet engine!
Incidentally, have you ever smelled NORMAL jet fuel, or better yet, the EXHAUST from an engine running on it? Jets typically run on a naptha/kerosene blend, which besides being a carcinogen will give you a real bad headache afer a few minutes (unless you're into doing things like snorting tremclad or shoving jiffy markers up your nose or other "fun with fumes" I guess). The exhaust smells similarly unpleasant--almost, but not quite as nice, as deeply inhaling the cloud of black sooty smoke that comes out of the tailpipe of an old diesel truck with fouled injectors.
SO, I'm guessing that it'll perhaps make the airports smell BETTER if algae-derived biofuels become more commonplace. It's also much better than using exotic and/or edible sources, such as coconuts.
The kinks in harvesting algae will be worked out with development. Give the industry time.
And of course it will take large quantities to produce large volumes of fuel, the up side is that algae is easy to grow anywhere and grows fast.
Solix (http://www.solixbiofuels.com/):
On a side note and off topic, what imbecile modded you down to -1? Your post is informative and includes a great link to the technology and should be modded up. I amazes me just how many morons are out there with mod points. Mr Malda, would you fix this please. Someone needs a time out.
"Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
Nobody ever bothers meta-moderating.
Damn spell check
Post correction, should have been:
"It amazes me just how many morons are out there with mod points."
"Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
And then there are people, like me, with "excellent" Karma that hasn't seen mod points in well over 5 years. I can only figure that I said something somewhere that pissed off one of the Slashdot editors enough to be placed on a "Does not get Mod points EVER!!!!" list.
Yes, my views are distinct, and I always thought that is what made Slashdot great. But seriously, I'm not a freaking troll (at least not most of the time).
But you know, whatever. I'm still here, and I don't complain much. I'll just keep adding comments, meta moderating and such. I've given up on ever seeing mod points again.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Sounded like they were flying algae somewhere by jet.
Where will the water for growing algae go? In Arkansas there are many square miles of valuable cropland in the Mississippi and Arkansas River basins covered in fish farms.
Stop posting for a bit. The more you post, the less likely you are to be given mod points (which makes sense, since people who post in every article they read can't use mod points). I got mod points over Christmas after I spent a few days not checking /., and the last time before then I got them was when I was too busy to post for a while.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Actually, I'm the one that made sure of it, and it's not because of what you did. Just that you're ultra-ghey.
is making me go nuts.
To all you virgins: Thanks for nothing.
In February 2008, a Virgin 747 flew from London to Amsterdam partly using a fuel derived from a blend of Brazilian babassu nuts and coconuts.
Yeah but were those African or European coconuts?
Place bycycle-type cranks and pedals at every seat in the plane, and power it by the passengers. Ticket prices would plummet, we'd all have much nicer looking legs, promotes teamwork... The flintstones knew it way back then!
I've got Excellent karma as well, and haven't posted in at least a year (although I browse Slashdot a lot.) I also haven't been given mod points in almost 3 years.
So does this mean we will have planes with bigger paunches to carry fat Americans?
I like the idea of feeding the output of coal/gas power plants into algae farms, you get two sources of power from one carbon input.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
The real test will be whether the total energy efficiency exceeds that of creating hydrogen fuel via electrolysis as the MIT team that's been all over the news for the last year says they can now do cheaply and efficiently. Biofuel is of course just a form of solar power. The conversion efficiency is not likely to be more than about 14% based on how photosynthesis works, if I recall my numbers correctly. PV cells already do much better than that, so the real value is of course in the storage. If MIT's electrolysis tech can use the 40%+ efficiency of the latest PV cells or thermal solar power or whatever else to generate hydrogen for a total efficiency that significantly exceeds the 14% of biological photosynthesis, then biofuels are likely DOA. But the gap would have to be significant to compensate for the difficulties and costs associated with hydrogen fuel.
Personally, I think it's unlikely hydrogen will cover all these hurdles in the near term. So, my money is still on algal biodiesel.
A-Bomb
Algae is the only really viable bio-diesel source. The closest thing to it is switchgrass, but even that can't be fully turned into bio-diesel. The only - and significant - issue with algae-derived bio-diesel is that it's difficult to efficiently turn algae into diesel.
What astounds me though is the number of times people try to turn slow-growing foodstuff into fuel. Coconut oil? I'm sure the same genius came up with the idea to use corn for ethanol fuel. Here's why those are dead ends:
- they require a lot of surface, water and nutrients.
- only a small fraction of the entire plant gets used.
- impacts food prices.
Compare that with algae, which:
- can grow in vats of arbitrary size.
- can be grown in sewage treatment plants.
- main growth restriction is light.
- the entire organism is used in the production of the fuel.
Every time I hear someone advocate fuel from coconuts or corn, I'm wondering how much he's getting paid by corn and coconut growers.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
The airlines will never admit to doing this once it has been many years that way they can keep bitching about the gas prices, and overcharge you until the day comes they will let it be known they have been flying for some time now. I doubt very much the price of tickets will go down just because they save money doing this.
I used to meta-moderate almost every time I saw the link for it.
I tried once after we switched to slashdot v2.0 and could not figure it out, so I haven't moderated since.
NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
Why do people always say 'Jet Fuel' like its something mystical or magical, instead of saying Kerosene. I have a kerosene heater at home. It burns jet fuel. The only issue is that jet fuel has additives that don't burn quite as clean in a heater as pure kerosene. But still...
at least not at the universe im in. the aircraft they carry flies.
Read radical news here
Because most of the time when there is a post the moderator doesn't like or agree with. He will moderate it Overrated.
Overrated is not effected by Meta Moderation unless they make it so
Rated Overrated Score when rated was x currently is y.
Overrated should be used when a post score is about a 5. Right on the top of the page but really doesn't belong there.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Actually, I started out at -1. My karma was Terrible. This is apparently what happens if you have a couple of +5 Funny comments. Now, thanks to this Informative post, my karma went up to Bad.
/. karma system that has yet to make sense to me. I just have those moderators who actually read -1 comments to thank.
So there are no morons who modded me down, only a
...Though it has been hinted too, but this essentially gives machines the same footprint on the earth as living creatures. Rather than being fueled by goo that comes out of the ground, our airplanes cars and houses will becomes consumers of food. I would like to know how much a jet 'grazes' each day to operate and how much food supply it is going to consume.
The one that used coconuts was a European-owned airplane.
But yes, Tim the Enchanter didn't even _consider_ what happened if you used a North American swallow carrying either coconuts or algae.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
So are football fields of soybeans going to be the standardized measurement for biofuels? I'd prefer hockey rinks of alfalfa sprouts.
... a Boeing 737-700, took off from Houston Intercontinental, flew over the Gulf Of Mexico, and returned to IAH (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/COA9990). A mostly overwater flight shows reasonable confidence in algae as a fuel.
It's Linux, damnit! Pay no attention to renaming attempts by self-aggrandizing blowhards.
Bio-fuel from algae is going to be an interesting field. It's easy to grow, difficult to harvest, and takes a lot of it to make into fuel. But it doesn't take up valuable cropland like corn does and really can be grown anywhere you're willing to build tanks.
Converting maize into ethanol isn't exactly a simple process anyway.
It sort of depends on how fast you want to get there. If you can take a bit of a slower ride, zeppelins would be an excellent alternative. It does not need fuel for lift, just motion. Kitted out with solar panels on its skin and decent batteries, it could conceivably make trans-oceanic trips on batteries. And if the batteries run out of juice, it's not catastrophic.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
What you say isn't entirely true from what I have read.
The Algae is usually seperated from the water through filtration or skimming of some sort and then pressed to extract the oil. The waste product can then be dried out and broken up to be used as food stuff for the algae that you still have growing. So while the algae isn't generating as much waste as the other options it's not 100% production either.
The big difficulties I seem to remember were in getting useful amounts of oil out of the strains of algae they could easily grow. While there are millions of different strains of algae there are only maybe a couple hundred that can produce enough oil to be worthwhile. They need to find a hardy strain of algae that won't easily be displaced by an invading strain that doesn't produce enough fuel. And at the same time that won't wipe out all other algae strains in the area.
The real test will be whether the total energy efficiency exceeds that of creating hydrogen fuel via electrolysis as the MIT team that's been all over the news for the last year says they can now do cheaply and efficiently.
Hydrogen is a difficult fuel to handle. Compared with hydrocarbon gases it's much harder to ensure that there are no leaks. Most existing vehicles are designed to use liquid fuels. Switching to a gas fuel would require a complete redesign of fuel systems. In the case of jet transport aircraft the wing is typically the main place to carry fuel, but that isn't a sensible place to put a gas fuel.
Well, it's not meta-moderating anymore. It's just plain moderating, with ambiguous instructions. I stopped doing it after that change was made.
I've had a few +5 funny screw my karma. You don't get any karma for being funny anymore. Then you get one or two people give you a -1 overrated or -1 offtopic and you'll earn negative karma for your funny post. That is why you'll see "funny" posts rated as interesting or informative , mods are tweaking the system so the author earns some karma.
I used to metamoderate daily, until the updates to slashdot broke metamoderation for IE users (since I normally browse slashdot from my work machine on which there can be no Firefox).
I don't know if it's intentional, but it seems to me that slashdot is intentionally broken for IE users... while that's fine by me from a philosophical standpoint, if it gets worse, I'll go elsewhere. I just hope the powers-that-be recognize that the 'screw IE' development of the site drives users, and therefore content, away. I'm pretty sure they understand and are willing to lose some cash from lost users... but I'm not so sure they realize the impact of the redesign on the content (comments) of the site, which has scarier implications for the future of slashdot.
I know I post less than I did before the crappy redesign, and I'm also quite certain the quality of my posts has dropped as well.
I know I'm going off on a tangent here, but the user page is awful and barely usable. Clean(ish) design was why I liked slashdot's UI... that's going away, and at some point, so will I.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
What they COULD do -- since they are snazzing up the page -- is to create floating/translucent areas the contain the things moderators dick with. ANYthing that is metamoderated would go there, and then users could know instantly who the abusive on-duty moderators are. Users could link-alert each other to "rectify" the damage an assailing moderator might wreak. Moderation is a power that should come with a responsibility to JUSTIFY why a score or category is assigned, forcing any vindictive or unintelligent moderators to STFU, and to be out of a lush position.
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Feeding beans, butter, cheese and an assortment of other things could dual-purpose inmates as bio-fuel export sources.
If only our smart-asses could figure out how to create (or accelerate) more potent energy from our excrement, we could have a bounty of energy to fly planes. Maybe they could "cut" the bio-ass fuel into the mix. Compressed Human Ass Fuel Futures (CHAFF) could be a good investment in divestment. Hopefully, though, the planes won't "stink to high heaven"... But, flying in "a world of shit" could have omnious meanings in a crash, and NTSB would REALLY have a shitty job of the aftermath (and after math)... (is it Friday?)
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Sadly the supposed "efficiency" of hemp oil as a magical bio-fuel is a constant myth propogated by the pro-MJ crowd.
Typically, hemp oil has too many poly-unsaturated fatty-acids to make it a really good fuel by itself so it need to be chemically altered before it can go into typical distribution channels (or go rancid) or used directly in typical combustion engines (w/o causing lots of soot/carbon residue). The extra processing required makes it fairly uneconomical compared to other current bio-fuel alternatives. Also as a plant, hemp isn't really much more "productive" than other plants (such as rapeseed or other plants currently used for bio-fuel production) as measured in biomass per acre or per-amount of fertilizer, or other typical metrics that might be applied.
Of course that doesn't mean that it's really bad as a hydrocarbon source or there aren't other uses for industrial hemp (e.g. paper and other cellulistic types of products), but the myth that it's some sort of magical thing we aren't taking advantage of because of a government conspiricy is really just a "pipe" dream of the MJ advocates...
Maybe if they did some selective breeding or some other transgenic modifications of hemp, it would be a better fit for bio-fuels, but we are probably equally (or better) served doing similar activities with the current rapeseed or algae strains rather than blindly follow this hemp myth...
Although, I bet that algae are a lot cheaper than the latest PV cells.
Why not grow algae near airports and convert it onsite to fuel?
Now that a US-flagged piece of equipment has done it, we can really label it as a first. (Headline: First Flight of Jet Powered by Algae-Fuel)
When the Brits and the New Zealanders did it, it didn't really count. They were just goofin'.
What would Madge say? "You can soak in it!"
Nobody ever bothers meta-moderating.
I haven't had mod points in over a year. Like I'm going to get heavily invested in the moderation system when I never get to play.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
I got mod points once in the last 10 years. I guess using them to mod down off-topic flamebait wasn't a good idea unless I did it only in a Christian-bashing/anti-America/Liberal form to keep those all at +5. I keep seeing those at +5 and lost all faith in moderators. Meta-moderating for 5 yrs didn't give me a single mod point.
The real test will be whether the total energy efficiency exceeds that of creating hydrogen fuel via electrolysis as the MIT team that's been all over the news for the last year says they can now do cheaply and efficiently. Hydrogen is a difficult fuel to handle. Compared with hydrocarbon gases it's much harder to ensure that there are no leaks. Most existing vehicles are designed to use liquid fuels.
Airliners would have to use liquid hydrogen, and thanks to NASA there is a lot of existing technology for that. The problem is that hydrogen in liquid and gaseous form has a low density so a 747 would almost need a shuttle external tank to get decent range.
I think the best way to use hydrogen is to combine it with carbon to make methane. Energy density per unit mass goes down, but per unit volume it goes way up.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
What astounds me though is the number of times people try to turn slow-growing foodstuff into fuel. Coconut oil? I'm sure the same genius came up with the idea to use corn for ethanol fuel. Here's why those are dead ends:
- they require a lot of surface, water and nutrients.
- only a small fraction of the entire plant gets used.
- impacts food prices.
Compare that with algae, which:
- can grow in vats of arbitrary size.
- can be grown in sewage treatment plants.
- main growth restriction is light.
- the entire organism is used in the production of the fuel.
Well, compare that with inventing a solar-powered machine thats water and air directly into gasoline, at 100% efficiency. Wouldn't that be something?
Saying algae is less wasteful, while adding the caveat that it might be hard to, you know, actually turn into useful product? Not a great way to make your case.
Turning corn/coconuts into fuel might not be efficient, but at least it has the plus side that it's possible with existing technology. The perfect is always the enemy of the good.
I'm not saying corn as a biofuel hasn't been a complete disaster--it has--but claiming algae is the solution is making an unjustified leap of faith. Let the technology develop, but I'm willing to see if, say, soybeans or jatropha or switchgrass make more viable near-term alternatives.
Jatropha and switchgrass are good alternatives as well. They have the added benefit that the technologies for extracting a good amount of oil from them already exists. However, they do not have the upside that algae have. That's why a lot of people are excited about them, including me.
As for corn/coconuts, the lack of efficiency isn't even the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that you're turning food (needed for survival) into fuel (needed for travel and shelter, and therefore less critical). This drives up prices for food, and causes significant pain. If we're talking cliches, this is stealing from Peter to pay Paul.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Since a hydrocarbon is just hydrogen and carbon molecules, shouldn't algae (or any mechanism) be able to theoretically take energy from sunlight to combine hydrogen from water and carbon from the atmosphere into hydrocarbons?
I mean, sure, the algae structures are going to be made of other bits of matter, but you should be able to recycle those with minimal loss, right?
I mean, once you have all the algae you need (you aren't trying to grow more to seed new vats), you'll only need to provide foodstuffs for what you lose in normal processing. None of it should actually be consumed.
As for the other concerns, it probably wouldn't be very economical to grow the algae in sealed vats. I am wondering what the ERoEI of algae is opposed to, say, thermal or photovoltaic solar plans in the same areas? Sure, electricity doesn't have the benefits of fuel, but what's the "price tag" for getting the energy in a fuel form? Or is letting mother nature do it for us more efficient?
"That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
You put the algea in large tubes (10 ft tall, 2 ft around) and continuously churn the water until the density of algea reaches your target harvest point. Then drain the water and process the agea.
Not dissimilar to how commercial farms raise the chickens we eat. ;-)
While there's been no Disney movies produced to date that feature algae in starring or even cute supporting roles, it's not unthinkable that some group will incorporate the wildly-creative reasoning of the Life Begins in The Womb types, or those ideas advocated by the more extreme environmental groups, to raise objections to harvesting our single-cellular friends on a mass scale.
If that sounds absurd, consider PETA's new campaign to Save the Sea Kittens. Note that the site is neither a joke, nor a kids entertainment page.
Every day you drive to work, a kitten starves.
Every time I hear someone advocate fuel from coconuts or corn, I'm wondering how much he's getting paid by corn and coconut growers.
Is it easy to actually get algae based biofuel right now? Maybe the corn/coconut outfits are just easier to buy from.
Seems to me that this is an opportunity in a different fashion. Squish the algae for the oil you can get from it, then take the left-over material (mostly cellulose) and use the catalytic process for converting that to ethanol, and you can get a second shot at harnessing the solar energy the algae absorbed as vehicle fuel.
This would also be a good recovery pattern for non-oil algae strains infiltrating an oil-based crop.
It's not that simple. Combining CO2 and H2O through photosynthesis gives you carbohydrates (made up of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen) directly, not hydrocarbons (made up of just carbon and hydrogen). Plants and animals can take energy from carbohydrates and produce fatty acids (hydrocarbons), but it's not the automatic result of combining carbon dioxide and water.
ironically i got mod points right after my recent bunch of posts so its not always true i guess
Woah, that is FUCKED UP. But of course I already knew about PETA.
I'm not about to confuse a fish with a kitten, but if I did, I'd want them all dead! Cats kill most of the native wildlife, spread toxoplasmosis and other horrible diseases, dig up gardens, and poop in sandboxes. Cats are evil. Kittens are just small cats. Die, die, die!!!
PETA's intent must be... that we should kill all fish?
Nearly always, a car holds 1 person.
Nearly always, a plane has less than a dozen empty seats. Delta is especially "good" about this, overbooking every flight and then failing to serve a half dozen customers per flight.
Buses and trains tend to be far from full. Something like 25% full seems about right. They also take incredibly indirect routes (factoring in the bus/train changes), adding many many miles to the trip.
From the moderation faq:
"I found a comment that was unfairly moderated!
Lemme know and I'll look at it. Sometimes I might agree and revoke access to a moderator. Usually I disagree and let it go. Its difficult to be the judge on this stuff since it is so subjective. "
I'm pretty sure it hasnt been updated in a good 4~5 years. So no1 really knows how moderation works at this point. Maybe meta-moderating a bi helps? Just like 10 minutes.
First Flight of Engine Powered By Algae-Fuel
There fixed that for you.
And the other 3 engines are not the engines you are looking for.
The whole moderation system is retarded. The only people qualified to moderate are the only people qualified to post comments. Moderation ensures that either the quality of moderation or comments will be limited by anyone willing to moderate (unlike me.) :)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The kinks in harvesting algae don't just need time, they need high oil prices (which of course they got very briefly last year). But four months isn't enough.