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Do Nice Engineers Finish Last In Tough Times?
jammag writes "As the wave of pink slips is starting to resemble Robespierre and his guillotine, the maneuvering among tech professionals to hang on to their job is getting ugly. IT Management describes the inter-office competition between the manager of a server farm and the supervisor of networks and security. One was nice, giving his team members credit, taking responsibility when something went wrong. The other was a backstabber who spent plenty of time sucking up to the management. As the inevitable cuts came, who do you think hung on to their job?"
Do Nice Engineers Finish Last In Tough Times?
Why, just the other day, a coworker was in contention for a promotion that was going to a younger engineer. My coworker found the specs to the younger engineer's car online and determined the precise rate it would have to leak coolant to completely drain the reserve tank precisely when he was leaving home to make an important customer meeting the next morning. I saw him on a crawl board attaching the regulator and a valve system in the parking lot and sure enough it overheated at precisely the right time so our customer just sat their waiting.
It's a calculate-or-be-calculated world out there!
My work here is dung.
Hot tip: not every tech professional is an "engineer," the least of which being IT professionals and "network engineers." What a diluted title.
Ability will never catch up with the demand for it.
If the management above is unable to see which of the two in the example is worth keeping, perhaps it's not the best place to work anyway, as it looks like politics makes up more of the workload than engineering. I'm reasonably sure that engineers are engineers because they DO NOT want to be politicians.
Of course, there is always the fix the coolant leakage rate solution, mix that with the faked IP and filesharing solution and things get entertaining while you are passing out your resume.
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
For wasting company time being nice.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
With capitalism garbage rises regardless of whether or not times are tough...
Do Nice Engineers Finish Last In Tough Times?
Same as:
Nice guys don't get to kiss pretty girls.
They're about networking, social skills, and shameless self-promotion.
People like me, and I suspect most geeks on slashdot, want to be judged on our merits, but the fact is in most cases we won't be. So yes, nice engineers do finish last.
Why not make lemonade from lemons and accept a layoff? If you're financially stable with few or no obligations such as family, mortgage, etc. and you've had a reasonable work history why not just collect unemployment until you can find a decent-paying gig?
You won't make as much money, true, but if you satisfy the above conditions you'll probably make enough to afford food and a roof. You'll be able to sleep in every day, go to the gym, work on personal projects, go out on dates, and much more! It's not like you're being lazy or anything -- "the economy" is a very acceptable excuse for not having a job, at least until the economy goes back into full swing.
Nice engineers finish last when the management is stupid.
What's yours?
Or do you value integrity so highly that you'll accept the consequences?
Of course, there is the flip side to the coin - one could argue that advising management that the ass-kisser is actually doing a terrible job (complete with documentary evidence) is the more honourable position. You've advising the company of a risk they may not have been aware of.
As an Engineer I believe my ethics are just as important as any other skill I may have. You should too. If a company I worked for didn't see that in me I would probably be working somewhere else anyway. You do have the ability to look for other employment while at your current job. If you have been at your job for any length of time, they will know you, both personally and professionally. If there is anything to worry about, they already knew it BEFORE anyone stabbed your back. A wise man told me once, "If a company wants you, they will do anything in their power to keep you. If they don't like you, they will do anything to get rid of you. This includes "bending the rules"".
"Computers are a lot like Air Conditioners" "They both work great until you start opening Windows"
Is this even a supposedly true story? I'm not sure what we're supposed to conclude from n=1 cases of what appears to be a parable.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Always, not just in tough times. The archetypal IT practitioner is the Bastard Operator From Hell, not the Nice Operator From The Land Of Huggybear and Kissyface.
No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
As the inevitable cuts came, who do you think hung on to their job?
The cute receptionist?
Some managers value competence, some mangers don't. Doesn't really change with the times.
...it's time to look for something better anyway. If in though times a businesse does not realize that it isn't built on career people, then it's already on the way out. Leave while you can. The fighting is only going to get rougher when the ship sinks.
There will always be companies and individuals that favor short term gains instead of focusing on long-term goals. Letting the good manager go for a bad one can only lead to revolt. While they may not necessarily all follow the good manager when he leaves, his team will all certainly be looking for another opportunity even in this economy because they all know they will be next to go if something goes wrong regardless if it was their fault.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
And occasionally, a nice engineer can't cope with it anymore and takes a shotgun to work.
I'm in a vaguely similar situation. In my current situation if I got cut, I'd be like, "Okay, feel free to call me, my consulting rate is $200/hr."
Eventually they'd call:
- other guy:
- can handle basic help desk - sure
- can manage citrix/TS - no
- can manage ERP - no
- can deal with scripts - no
- can perform complex troubleshooting - no
Lucky for him, he doesn't report to me!
I think that the whole premise of the question is false. The question being asked is whether nice guys who share credit and accept responsibility will get axed in favor of mean guys who steal credit and ID scapegoats.
I actually RTFA (I know, a /. blasphemy) and I don't think that is a valid question. According to the article, the reason "Doug" got the job and "Staurt" the nice guy got fired is that Doug went to their boss and made a case for why it would be better for the boss and the company to retain him instead of Stuart. Now his reasoning was flawed, but Stuart never made such a case. He just assumed that he got fired because he was the nice guy.
Being a nice guy (sharing credit, accepting responsibility) and valuable employee (recognizing your manager's needs and supporting them, being politically aware and astute) are not mutually exclusive.
What Stuart should have done is said "that I am well respected by my team, I keep a mature and professional attitude when mistakes are made (not like Doug who yells at his team). In this uncertain time after layoffs are announced, the remaining people will be nervous and perhaps looking to leave on their own terms. Kelly, I'll make sure that the remaining team stays on target, and achieves all goals, so you look good. Doug said that I cannot make the tough decisions, but look, I've come to you with cogent and well reasoned reasons to layoff the required people in my team, as you requested. I can make the tough decisions, but in a way that keeps the remaining team morale up and productive."
Now Stuart may have actually said that, but TFA doesn't say so. Instead we're left to assume that he just figured as a nice guy he lost his job.
Nice or mean doesn't have much to do with it, being politically aware and understanding office dynamics is everything.
-"Those who fought today will die tommorow."-
that if you are nice, you will be screwed all the time by everyone around you. NEVER enter business, or any other type of relationship, without being possessed of the ability to utterly destroy the people around you should the need arise.
It's a ruthless world. If you are not at least a little ruthless, you will starve. If the economy is good, you may be able to nibble a few morsels that fall from the lips of those that are actually doing what it takes to make it, but in tough times, you're out.
You can achieve success, you just have to realize that you'll do it on the backs and broken dreams of your coworkers and colleagues. Suck it up and get back to it!
I am the penguin that codes in the night.
It's not clear why we should believe the story. It has all the earmarks of embellishment. The detail that tears it for me is the assertion that the bad guy said "I will be ruthless and make you look really, really good Kelly.â
Nobody describes themselves as "ruthless." Nor would they be so unsubtle as to say "I will make you look really, really good." Nor would many people be so naÃve as to trust someone to make them look really, really good after they had just described themself as "ruthless."
This colorful detail sounds as if it were made up. So why should we believe the rest of the story?
I don't think this is a piece of journalism, with real names concealed. I think this is just someone asserting that nice guys finish last... in the form of a parable.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
to not offer layoffs based on performance. Where I work, it's whoever's on "performance management" (you have to really really suck, have attendance problems, or be insubordinate, none of which have hardly anything to do with performance for 95% of people). If nobody is on "performance management" or the list of layoffs exceeds employees on the list, then it goes by hire date.
You could be new and great and not make the cut if someone who only generally sucks got hired one day before you.
It's neither fair nor smart, but eliminates the politics of it and is less likely to happen at a smaller company where they are more prone to actually make distinctions based on merit.
Game: Player 'Donald J Trump' now has AI skill level 'experimental'.
the start-up I was at was being shopped around for acquisition as the money was starting to run out.
A potential suitor turned into someone who just wanted to cherry pick a few people. At some point discussions turned into "we want persons a, b, c, and d, but not e." I was person a.
As soon as person e heard this he trotted over, badmouthed me, got himself a job offer, which he didn't take, and I ended up on unemployment for a month.
Boo hoo for me I suppose. Should I have sued his ass?
Of course you can always find an anecdotal counterexample, but the one time I decided I wanted to get someone out of a management position that was interfering with my job, it wound up backfiring hugely (the situation was *worse* after I succeeded) and on a personal level it's something I regret to this day.
On the other hand, every time I've come into a job situation and behaved with honesty and integrity, it's worked out well for me. And I get to sleep at night.
So take your pick.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I have over the years read several articles about who the most successful CEO's are, those that are humble. When things go well, they give credit to the "team". When things go bad they take the blame. I think in the long run nice guys finish first. You can not trust someone who is a backstabber.
The plural of anecdote is bullshit.
In a well run company the engineer is graded through both quanity and quality of output. Being a nice guy (if slanting the outcome) will be a plus in not loosing their job.
Everybody wantes to be around a good guy, bosses and co-workers alike.
Nice guys finish last in all times. The "nice guy" who finishes last is very likely diffident, afraid to take risks, refuses to stand up for himself, shies from taking credit for their work, and avoids confrontation. These guys finish last. The "jerks" and "assholes" who succeed stand up for themselves, take credit for themselves, and are not shy about confronting those in their paths. The nice guys get run over by these assholes and then post on the Internet how how unfair life is.
I got this insight from my female roommate. Men would complain about how they are nice guys but girls always go for assholes. But these nice guys either never asked girls out, or even worse, wanted to be bad guys but just did not have the guts to do it. She related the story about a self-professed nice guy who got drunk, and started to feel her up even though she made it clear she was not interested.
So you can try to get everyone to like you or you can try to get what you think you deserve. It is very rare to be able to get what you want without stepping on any toes. You can be nice and polite, but if you are competing with someone for a job, the loser is not going to like you at all.
Hope this helps.
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
How did 'Being a prick guarantees you more success in the world of IT' become a story? Microsoft turned that idea into a business model, and look where it got them.
While the ethicist in me would like to think that a backstabbing prick like the one described in the article will eventually get his comeuppance, the truth is that assholes generally win in business. If you're competing with someone who is only bound by what's legal, as opposed to what's moral or fair, you're playing with a serious handicap. Whether you think the material gain is worth losing a bit of your humanity is a judgment call.
I, for one, would rather make less and be a better person.
I hear this repeated over and over.
I'm sorry, but "networking" is not the ticket to success in a technical career. In a technical career, knowing your shit is simply far more important.
If you count "networking" as your most important skill, you probably work in management, sales, or some other NONtechnical position.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
The summary makes it out to be a choice between the evil, cold-blooded manager (Doug) and the warm, fatherly teamleader (Steve). As much as we all like to see the black-white picture, I'm frankly sick with it -- do we need to have Slashdot become the Cosmo Girl for Nerds?
With a clear suppressor and an underdog, this can also be painted another way.
Kelly is the manager of the above two here. She was in a very tight spot and felt very alone, with noone to rely on. When asked for employee ratings, Steve unresponsively turned his back to her, just following orders. However, when Doug came along, he offered a listening ear and offered suggestions of his own. He showed that he could think along, offer support as well as make tough decisions -- just the person she needed.
*yawn* See how boring this black-and-white stuff gets?
8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
Maybe I'll set the building on fire...
Whether "nice" finishes last depends on your understanding of "nice". The more common usage is a people-pleaser who means well but cannot help operating out of a position of weakness because he thinks that happiness and fulfillment and completion come from other people (i.e. their approval and acceptance). To take on this nature is to be a leaf in the wind, always at the mercy of other people who themselves do not (yet) see their beliefs and full actions (with no exceptions) as choices. This is actually a form of slavery and it works because ignorance of the higher way prevents people from seeing that it is bondage. This idea taken to its full expression is unfortunately what most people think love is, when in reality its most healthy expression (which is still enslaving) is nothing more than a mutually agreed trade like those found in any market ("you're nice to me so I am nice to you").
The less common usage is well beyond mere courtesy and is more like an act of love. This is a person who has kindness and compassion for its own sake because cultivating these is pure joy. When you have this, there is no concern for outcomes or results because you realize that all of us are equal and must come to our own understanding at our own pace and in the fullness of our own time. There is no need to control and there is no need for this type of loving-kindness to be reciprocated. Reciprocated or not, the mere expression of it is pure joy and it is complete in and of itself. Everything is filled to the brim with nothing missing and there is no need to get upset (and thus cause suffering over) the non-ideal. It is the truly pure motive, in that even the exquisite joy of it is not done for the sake of experiencing joy. This is the type of person who finds possibilities and opportunities where there are none; the one for whom all actions and all speech are expressions of an ultimately simple and self-evident Truth. With this understanding, you feel that you yourself are not doing or saying anything. It is more like you find or observe yourself saying or doing this-and-that and it happens to be the best thing you could have said or done at the time, certainly far better than the result of any kind of deductive process. An engineer or anyone else who has this need not worry about things like tough times because he or she is free of the slavery that makes someone a victim of circumstance.
The only thing that is regrettable, or something like regrettable, is that most people live their entire lives without ever knowing the difference. It is not so complicated that most people cannot understand it. It is so incredibly utterly simple that most people overlook it out of a belief that they themselves should be doing something or seeking something or becoming something.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
...telling his boss that mistakes that his employees made were his mistakes was not very smart.
Atleast that is how I read his actions.
Stuart should have been 100% honest. Lying to his bosses about who screwed up didn't help anyone in the end.
Well, it helped Doug.
Not saying throw the employee under the bus. Be cool, be honest, and tell it like it is.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
What is this middle class obsession with being as unstreet-wise and day dreaming as possible?! The meek will inherit the earth, so long as it's alright by you.
One was nice, giving his team members credit, taking responsibility when something went wrong.
That is probably the problem. In the higher-ups eyes at one time something went wrong and that guy did it.
Mechanical, electrical and chemical engineers were decimated in the late 70s/early 80s as manufacturers packed up and went overseas. There was an engineering glut due to Eisenhower and Kennedy's "beat the reds" era programs which churned out armies of engineers. Several of my father's friends were caught up in those lay offs and had take up menial labor jobs to keep food on the table.
Answer: The folks at Satyam.
I just hope the PHB took his kickback in Satyam stock.
Have gnu, will travel.
Sniff...
I smell a load of crap.
The story is obviously a fake. All falls together way too nicely and conveniently to be true.
even as a load of crap, it's worth discussing.
1. Stuart should demonstrate his value (not necessarily by stabbing doug in the back).
2. if the story had been true, Doug would surely begin working to overthrow THE BOSS next. Watch your back.
3. No upper manager would reconsider when the staff threatens to leave over the layoff. They're just angry and will get over it.
I think jammag forgot the last sentence. Who kept his job? I want to know.
To do list for Windows
why more women don't enter tech.... lol:)
whoosh
I got this insight from my female roommate. Men would complain about how they are nice guys but girls always go for assholes. But these nice guys either never asked girls out, or even worse, wanted to be bad guys but just did not have the guts to do it. She related the story about a self-professed nice guy who got drunk, and started to feel her up even though she made it clear she was not interested.
I'm not clear on the message here. Nice guy turns into jerk and feels up uninterested girl. Since chicks dig jerks, she must have liked it right? If she didn't like it, would the guy have been better off staying nice? If so, that would conflict with your major premise.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
SOMEONE has to fix the problems that those other people create. And the best way for them to handle it is to bring you in as a consultant/contractor.
Particularly in the company featured in TFA. Why didn't Kelly know that Doug was taking credit for things he wasn't responsible for?
In an economic downturn, I'd stick with the nice people because they ARE nice. You cannot afford to have them leave and take the business knowledge that is locked in their heads with them.
The employees will know that their boss is a backstabbing bastard and they will react accordingly. The talented ones will look for other jobs. The people-not-in-the-talented-ones-group will remain behind. The company will suffer.
Actually, in most jobs, they're both important. There's two lessons that the "smart kids" generally have to learn later in their lives (some have to figure it out in college, some get by a little longer). One is that unlike in grade school, smarts along won't put you in the upper echelon. You have to work hard, and you have to network. It's a big world, and no matter how smart you are, there's a guy out there who's at least as is talented as you and harder working. And there's a guy out there who's at least as smart as you and better at networking.
The point is that(especially in rough economic times) there's often more than enough smarts available to fill the demand. Being technically competent is certainly important, but unless you're in some very rare position where no one else is equally competent (or convincingly close), you've got some equally competent competition out there. Taking the time to develop some social and political business skills is not a wasteful investment in yourself.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
Having been on a few sinking ships, I haven't found that to be the case. What I've seen, oddly, is the opposite. People get nicer once the realize there's no future in it for anyone. At that point, it becomes about who remembers you and how, and whether they can get you into wherever they land next.
At a certain point, it just becomes collecting your paycheck until its your turn. No point in being a dick about it.
No, networking is not the "ticket to success" in an IT career, but it is the fare. You can be capable of building your own helpdesk, write your own OS for breakfast, and whistle in Bluetooth (no, I don't have any idea how) but if no one wants you in the building you'll never get work.
Any job, ANY JOB, involves interaction with human beings. And as such, if you want to keep your job, you must be willing to put at least a minimum amount of effort in keeping that interaction cordial.
Networking doesn't enable you to do the job, it enables you to GET that job and KEEP it when other individual of seemingly comparable qualifications (to the outsider making the decision) are available.
And who says you aren't being judged on your merits? Or did never occur to you that the real world might value things differently than your insular little self absorbed haven?
It's the only silver lining in an economic downturn. the good part is that whatever money the poor have can actually continue to feed them. Perhaps you'd prefer an inflationary depression wherein one's life savings can't buy a loaf of bread? Our fearless leaders are doing their best to ensure that occurs. For an example of the wonderful employment environment it produces, you could consider moving to Zimbabwe.
"If still these truths be held to be
Self evident."
-Edna St. Vincent Millay
It's not a matter of nice or not nice, whether you're a network "engineer" or a degreed PE. The people who finish last are the people who will accept being put in last place.
Those that can, do. Those that can't but speak up, still do. Those that don't speak up, whether they can or can't do, are the ones who get the shaft.
Toot your own horn when it's necessary but don't overdo it. Toot other people's horns when it's necessary, but don't overdo it. Do your job and make sure at least one skip above you understand that you're a valuable member of the team and you'll be fine in most cases.
"Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
I'd think game theory would have something to say about this exact situation, but not being familiar with it, I'm not sure what parts come into play. Any ideas?
Of course he used a fitting that required the moisture of the coolant to stay connected, once the coolant was gone the fitting dried out and fell off several minutes before the engine overheated, leaving only a small hole.
Aside from the fact that your post is a load of horseshit, I suppose that you didn't step up to the plate by telling management what you witnessed.
And, incidentally, once the youngster took his car to the shop to be repaired, the tampering would have been discovered, and your fictional coworker would have been thrown in jail (hmm just where did this after market valve and regulator come from anyway?). In most states tampering with an automobile is a felony.
Alright alright, I need to come clean ... I embellished on this story a little bit. Here's the truth:
I was going to tell my boss but when I walked in, the coworker I was ratting out was on his knees with a mouthful of my boss and I think he said, "Oh hai!" I didn't stick around to clarify, I just left.
And it wasn't a car, it was a hovercraft. And it wasn't a regulator & valve, it was a detonator & C4. And he wasn't late for a meeting, he died. And don't worry about the law, Virginia isn't a state it's a commonwealth.
I feel almost relieved to get that off my chest and to come clean with you. I think I answered all your questions truthfully and fairly. Hopefully, together you and I can keep the internet a sound unbiased source of nothing but the unadulterated truth and historic account of everything.
You've helped me help myself. I love you.
My work here is dung.
Do you honestly think someone would go to jail for that? I don't think the mechanic would give a damn.
Besides, your sense of humor is very small, utmostly microscopic.
Why does 'nice' have to mean 'weasely and pathetic'? Conversely, cynically betrayal and ruthless ambition are not assertive qualities, they are antisocial qualities.
Not being a complete sociopath is actually an important, if undervalued, component in being a manager who doesn't make your haggard underlings want to throw themselves out of the office window.
I've been in enough horrific corporate and government hierarchies to know that actually nice people (rather than passive aggressive sorts who won't publicly stand up for themselves) end up being passed over for people who I swear would be murdering young girls and wearing their skins had they not a career ladder to climb.
Don't confuse the "nice guys finish last" complaint of a shy teenager with the "nice guys finish last" complaint of a demoralised office drone trying to maintain his humanity in an environment that actively tries to suck it out of you out of pure expediency.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
The only way to win is to pick up the board and beat the other guy to death with it :)
A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
Same deal with employment. If your company/IT department think like a singles bar looking for one night stands and will screw over each other and customers for a quick buck then being nice means nothing and you need to out-asshole the others to get ahead.
If, instead, your company/IT department are there to build long-term relationships, satisfying service and repeat business, then being nice is very important.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
If you are clinging to a job you are doing something wrong.
If layoffs come and I have to compete for a spot I just walk away, in fact I have done it twice (in friendly terms), leaving the spot for somebody else. I always end up working elsewhere for more money.
HTML is obsolete. It's time for a new, simpler and richer markup language.
I am trying to remember what this is called, the law of something or another.
It was explain really well in a book I read some time back. This is where once dumb managers get in, they will never hire anyone smarter then them. So only the dumb aggressive ones rise. Eventually the whole company can die from this.
This was discussed on Slashdot several years ago too. Good luck finding it.
I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso
Not all 'nice guys' are wimpy. You can be a nice guy AND be assertive, stand up for yourself, take risks, and take credit for your own work. Heck, you can even be part of a confrontation and still be nice. This IS being nice and perhaps even honest. A person who can't do any of the above is a wimp. wimp!=nice guy.
Now, a 'douchebag' would be a guy that takes credit for others' work, is confrontational, puts everyone else down, and takes risks that put others in jeopardy. Some people like being douchebags, and some people just like douchebags.
go figure.
You CAN win and be an honest, stand-up guy. You won't if you are a wimp, and douchebags never win, even if it looks like they do.
I've hired wimps, douchehbags, and stand-up people. When the time came to let them go, the douchebags and wimps went first. Stand-up people went last, but they got great references and any assistance I could give them. That, in the end, is winning.
Toil is Stupid. Don't be Stupid.
The older one will be fired. Ageism is alive and well and living in the offices of engineering management.
Robespierre, Marie Antoinette, the Piss Boy, and the Count and Countess are all standing in line!
Nice guys finish last in all times. The "nice guy" who finishes last is very likely diffident, afraid to take risks, refuses to stand up for himself, shies from taking credit for their work, and avoids confrontation. These guys finish last. The "jerks" and "assholes" who succeed stand up for themselves, take credit for themselves, and are not shy about confronting those in their paths. The nice guys get run over by these assholes and then post on the Internet how how unfair life is.
As portrayed in this episode. Nice/jerk and weak/strong can be two different axes, though, depending on how you look at it.
Networking is not the same as being polite. Being polite is good.
Networking is the deliberate act of socializing with a large number of people in the off chance that one day one of them will offer you a sweet deal/job just because you talked about sports with him at a bar one night.
I have never had any particular trouble getting job interviews just by sending my resume to someone who was looking to fill a position (found online). Bullshitting about politics after hours had zero to do with getting those interviews.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
I got this insight from my female roommate. Men would complain about how they are nice guys but girls always go for assholes. But these nice guys either never asked girls out, or even worse, wanted to be bad guys but just did not have the guts to do it.
Your "female roommate" sounds to me to be so clueless as to not understand signals unless the words are literally painted to the front of a truck and rammed into her at 80 mph.
Either that, or she's just a misandric (explative deleted) since she can't decide whether men are worthless or evil, so assumes both.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
There's more insight in this person's post than is first apparent.
The fast and easy promotions through a company are usually grabbed up by people who have nearly no history. In many companies, you are golden until tarnished: once tarnished, you are never golden again.
If you're an old-timer, you probably have too many years to have never stumbled. Whether the fall was your own, a product of blame diversion, or inherited from predecessors is probably not even considered in the eyes of the decision makers.
Once had a manager say how badly the weekend migration was handled. She explained that everything went smoothly and so no one knew how good the team was. If there aren't innumerable problems and last minute saves then it couldn't possible but very hard.
It seems that most people who judge you are incapable of actually judging you. I worked with a guy who was just terrible. He kept training management to come by his desk and ask for all kinds of things to be added, which he dutifully did. Of course there was absolutely no release cycle so most of his brilliant fixed end up corrupting the data. For some strange reason management never saw that because the rest of the team had to fix it. From their perspective he was the only guy worth a damn because he never pushed backed.
Most managers just want to someone to say they will eliminate problems for them. Of course if they add 2 problems for everyone they eliminate it's OK as long as no one else knows.
You might as well just get used to it.
"As the inevitable cuts came, who do you think hung on to their job?"
The guy who installs coat hooks.
Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
Networking enables you to gain mentors, jobs, and promotions. This is no less true in a technical career than in a non-technical career.
No self-respecting engineer would consider networking his "most important skill". A successful one recognizes it as a necessary evil (unless, unlike most I've met, he actually enjoys the social aspects of his career).
The only time "knowing your shit" matters is when the person above you or hiring you is a technical person too. (That will never happen unless your technical skills are being used within the same technical industry, which doesn't describe all of us.) And even then, without networking, social skills, and self-promotion, you're going to get passed over for the other guy who knows his shit, too.
The funny thing is that the "nice guys finish last" statement doesn't hold weight in your argument because Assertive, Confident and Ambitious are not mutually exclusive to being a nice guy.
So phrase a slightly more accurate generality, weak and shy nice guys finish last. Strong and Assertive nice guys have a much better shot at finishing first. We have one of those strong and assertive nice guys being inaugurated tomorrow.
The article suffers from this same false dichotomy.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
"Nice Guy", "Asshole" those are all relative terms depending on which side of the layoff you are on.
You are hired by a business to advance that business (either save more money or make more money), not to play feel good with your fellow employees. It is best to be honest and do your job with integrity, in other words do what is best for the business without compromising your ideals. Never cover up or take the blame for others, if your fellow employees are having difficulties then teach them how do to better within the context of the business. If they still have problems it could possibly mean that employee is not cut out for the position that they got or they are not a good fit for the company. It benefits no one to keep someone in a position they are not qualified to do, in fact in most cases things eventually get ugly as everyone gets more and more frustrated. Business is business, you go to work every day to do business not to socialize. That does not mean that you cannot be fair, honest and open with the people you work with though. When the cuts come I guarantee your boss is going to be looking at who in the department helped to promote the business the most, not who was the nicest or who was the biggest asshole.
Upper management should really pay more attention to the productivity of the team as a measure of a manager/supervisor's success.
If the middle manager motivated his employees by celebrating successes and protecting the team in failures, chances are his employees were more confident, happy and productive.
If the supervisor spent all his time trying to take credit for other people's work and lay blame for failures, chances are his employees were disgruntled, depressed and not productive.
Also it is usually VERY easy to pick out the brown nosers, and even upper management doesn't really like those people!
Unless you are a project leader and you network with people that actually know their shit ;)
The Long Now Foundation
> As the inevitable cuts came, who do you think hung on to their job?
I was in a contract with a great boss where I had to educate someone as a backup and knew he would eventually become my replacement. Now I could have stonewalled and tricked him, but being a professional I documented everything to a high-standard, walked him through and mentored him well. I figured I'd already proved my worth to the firm, and anyway jobs weren't that hard to find.
So took an pre-agreed holiday, came back and was told my contract was canceled. As it turns out, jobs are no longer easy to find.
So I'd never do that again. It sucks, but if you have to choose between "doing the right thing" and survival, always choose survival.
Reading that simile was like marinating a walnut in talcum powder.
At the bottom of the
The only real skill that most bullies and back stabbers have, is manipulating things to appear different to their bosses, than it appears to the rest of the masses.
They may only know one thing well, and that is politics. Sometimes, that is all they need to know to be promoted.
On the whole nice-guys-just-don't-try thing.
Personal experience is that many (but not all) women are attracted to non-interest and compliments-that-could-be-insults (aka mean compliments). Maybe because it indicates confidence. Nice guys often work *harder* and spend more to make a relationship, just to lose to an ass she runs into at a bar/party/work/school.
Or people just prefer something they have to work for. Most (not all) guys would likely prefer the hot, demanding, 'passionate' girl over the hot 'nice' girl too. At least, in the short term.
Either way, being an ass is attractive.
Work relationships are the same way, especially to the people in charge.
Even the good researchers/programmers are often obnoxious. They're so wrapped up in their work, they just treat everyone else like tools to get the job done. They'll ignore everyone but themselves.
I've read a good bit of research on this, but a couple googles didn't turn up a good article. Feel free to look on your own. I'm sure there's plenty.
Both are extremes on one side of the scale or the other, and the opinions of both are less useful on average than someone who is well balanced. If I can trust someone to be honest, I'm going to be happier overall with that employee than someone who I either have to drag an answer out of, or someone I have to filter through the BS when dealing with.
If the nice guy would learn to be honest, instead of being nice, and the asshole would learn to be honest instead of blowing up or exaggerating things, they'd both be more valuable.
They're about networking, social skills, and shameless self-promotion.
I've got the networking part down pat. I replaced the 100 Mbit Ethernet switch on my desk with a gigabit switch.
I need to get back to hacking my Wikipedia entry for that self-promotion bit...
I don't think I agree with this article. Think about what being "nice" means. It means people like you in the office because you help everyone INCLUDING management. Being "nice" doesn't mean you're competent unfortunately. Maybe the article should have been being "competent". Problem is it isn't always clear who's "competent".
Still, I recall reading articles that being both "nice" and "competent" will eventually lead to good things in most cases. It was true in my case. I went from helpdesk call center to head IT operations in a small non-profit. It was a long and tough path but who am I to complain when I meet folks in worse situations than I was in.
In the end, I think the secret is to stick to what you love regardless of pay, and to be patient. It might take forever but at least you tried is my beliefs. Worked for me eventually.
between being nice and being meek. If he let everyone else take credit for what he worked on and took all responsibility for everything that went wrong then the management will have a bad image of him, even if he is superior. You have to man up and take credit for what you do. If something goes wrong don't blame someone else, but explain what went wrong, why it went wrong and how it can be fixed.
Can you recommend a resource for learning personal skills and politics? Books or something? How does one do this, exactly? Just show up for meetings and be nice to people?
This kind of reminds me when a dorky buddy of mine suddenly became an expert in "The Game". He went from tolerable dork to "call the cops" creepy in a matter of weeks amongst female company. I can imagine a similar technically proficient but socially mal-adjusted IT guy making a similar transformation when they try to apply their engineering problem solving skills to office politics.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
In my workplace, after years of cuts, there's speculation that a huge swath of of the company are going to be let go.
I can dig in, make myself look better than everyone else while coworkers with debts and families are out on the street ... or, I can sit back, make other people look good and get myself cut.
A nice guy can only handle so much survivor guilt.
We're smart and we may not say anything, but we know better. If a manager can't fight for you, then you are in the wrong place. I had a manager basically fuck me over in a meeting to his boss. I just stared at the guy and never said anything. But then they all knew and he never came back to ask me for shit after that, because I would never give him anything. I would rather get fired than help some idiot. He quit, I then left that company since that other manager wasn't any help either. So yeah we are nice, but you mess with the techie, your ass will be sorry. I don't care about pricks like that any way. You live and learn. And no, techies are not out to get people or take over someone's network, most of us are just good professional people, but I won't take shit from a backstabber. I had my share just like some people here. And yes, there are also many bad people in the computer industry just like any other.
On the other hand, the best manager I've ever had was the one that let me do my job. And you know what, I still talk to that manager to this day and I always did everything to make sure that manager didn't get screwed because of something that had to do with the network.
You know that saying, bull shit will get you to the top, but it won't keep you there.
Nice or not, lying in engineering is a stupid thing to do.
If it was your fault, fix it. If it was someone else fault, fix it and correct them so they don't break it again.
Blaming people or trying to take credit for things really has nothing at all to do with the job at hand.
Let those who want to play politics go do it.
If you are at a decent company, they'll recognize that and know that things run far smoother with you there. Most likely the managers will leave you alone to do your work too since you just 'make things work'
If that isn't the kind of person you are, perhaps you are more expendable than you think.
In my experience if you don't make any noise(good or bad) then nobody knows you're there. I don't think this situation sounds like it had to do with being a nice guy as much as it did being a quiet guy.
For some reason I refuse to use either spell check or the spacebar properly.
Okay, so someone posted something about workplace violence and that gets modded up with a "Funny." What the hell is wrong with you people? Workplace violence is not funny, never has been, and I could only imagine the scenario where it would be funny.
It should have been modded 'insightful.'
That's what she said.
its all of the business world, just that IT has been pretty much immune to it until now.
Welcome to reality folks. Hope you like it.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
There is no such thing as a non-management position. Unless you have a better than normal manager, most managers want you to not only do your technical job, but want you to do their job as well. At that recent interview I mentioned, the person who would be my manager complained so many IT people just sit at their desk and do their job instead of interacting with the business units, managing their own projects etc. He said he was overburdened, and without saying so he was obviously implying he was looking for the people under him to take a lot of that burden from him. Years ago when there were layoffs at a large company I was at, one of the managers also said people who just sat at their desks and did their job as opposed to schmoozing and all of that were at risk.
That you need some base level of technical knowledge goes without saying. But the people who brown-nose managers, who inquire what the business units want and who are held in high regard by the managers and leads of the other prominent business units etc. are who stays when there are layoffs. Within every company there is a coterie of managers, leads and top IT people who may as well be a lead or manager, and you are either in it or you are not. If you are not, you are susceptible to the ax.
I have seen a lot of self-delusion on Slashdot and among IT people as to there being a gap between hard-working people who know their shit (which the person considering this always thinking they're part of this group) and slackers who are incompetent. Which is standard. But you are going beyond even this and saying technical knowledge is everything, and brown-nosing managers and schmoozing other managers and leads means little or nothing. You may find this is not the case the hard way. I have seen two tough times in this field - from about 2002-2003, and another one which started last year and will end in who knows. Finding out that you are wrong may be a very painful lesson.
In some other post someone was mentioning how things work under capitalism etc. And so they were right. Someone who thinks their technical skill is all-important, and who doesn't see how those who brown-nose managers and schmooze with other managers and leads get ahead, is certainly going to be blind to the workings of the overall economic system. Because such things are intertwined with the economic system to some extent. But if someone can't see the obvious about who people who brown-nose managers get ahead of more technically competent personnel, than going into any of the broader stuff is pointless.
Who had the most important job? Or who was best at their job? Good people management is a useful skill but it might have been the only skill the nice guy had. We don't know the whole story.
Many folks in the defense industry felt they were in such a party back during the early 90's.
btw - they tasted like chicken! :P
Networking is an important skill. This is because you are essentially dealing with people no matter what your job is. The addage that "It's not what you know but who you know." is true. There is no escaping it. You can be the bee's knees on a subject, but if you don't make the right connections, then you won't be able to pick up the next job when the time comes up.
Being good at your job is important now. Being able to network is important when moving on.
For example. I worked my way up from answering phones to being in charge of a 2000 seat campus by a combination of learning new skills from a range of experienced techs. Then (due in part to the smooth running of the site, and due to having made friends with the regional manager) I was asked to monitor the health of the regions equipment. Now I was in charge of 500 switches, 50 routers and 80 servers. Monitoring their general wellbeing. I was able to get the jump on around 50% of errors by watching anomalies before they became a problem. Something that takes reasonable technical skill. (Yes, any charlie can read a log, but reading 80 of them daily and filtering for weird stuff takes some perl.)
Then sweeping changes occurred to that technical team and most of the operation was to be outsourced, my job included. I could have stayed on as a contractor working on the same system, but due to my networking skills, was able to use this to land a promotion. I am now working on a network 10 times the original size doing really cool stuff.
The moral of the story is tech out the wazoo will only get you so far. Networking is a skill that will get you further.
A sig is placed here
To display how futile
English Haiku is
So in the example, the nice guy gets fired and that back stabber gets promoted.
Well, 5 years down the road, the backstabber is also fired, while the "nice guy" found a job through one of his former coworkers who thought he was amazing and good to work with (the guy was good but also made him look better!) The backstabber, can't find work, and has no references.
Being nice or moral isn't generally filled with short term benefits (which is why it's contrasted with greedy!), but in the long term can yield very good results.
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
If that's what networking means to you, that's why you are discounting it. Networking is maintaining a social network. Period. With all that entails. If you have 'poor' networking then yes, all it is is socializing with a bunch of people an hour at a time for the sole purpose of getting 'something'. Be it a job or not.
But think I started valuing *myself*.
Look, there's quite a difference between being assertive and being an ass. Being passive and being nice is also not the same.
Communication skills are very important in the modern company. I don't care who you are---the days of the lone wolf are long gone, if they ever truly happened in the first place.
Be willing to stand up for yourself. Treat others with respect, and take pride in your work. Make sure others know who you are and your value.
It's not backstabbing. It's healthy human interaction. And it'll lead to you having more respect higher up and among your peers.
The nice vs. mean question is a false dichotomy, and being strong doesn't have to imply you're an ass.
Dragging people kicking and screaming into reality since 1996.
One of the things ascribed to the "nice guy" that is presumed to hurt them is that they take responsibility for failures.
A lot of organizations with political problems have a sort of "blame-oriented" culture. When something goes wrong, someone has to be blamed, and that person must be made to suffer. This is, of course, bad, because it focuses on punishing someone rather than solving the problem.
Sometimes in such an organization, you can actually gain power by accepting blame. When a problem is brought up and the group is obviously going on the hunt for a scapegoat, sometimes you can stand up and say "I'll take responsibility for that," define the problem as you see it, and spell out what you intend to do about it. This can be so shocking to the other people that they don't know what to do about it, and thus there's no punishment. This is particularly true if you do this in a context where it's clear that you're not actually to blame for the problem, you're just accepting responsibility for it anyway.
This can have several positive effects:
1) You are seen as someone who isn't afraid to stand up and be responsible, a leader.
2) You are seen as a force for positive action, a bringer of solutions.
3) You get to be in charge of whatever it is, even if you might not normally have been in charge of it. If you want to do so, you can expand your realm of authority in this manner.
Sometimes when you do this, one or more people who are particularly blame focused will notice you said you're "responsible", not "to blame", and start questioning you to determine if you actually caused the problem or someone else did (maybe someone who works for you) so they can try to find someone to blame and harm. When this happens, I say something like "The important thing here is not that we affix blame and punish someone, the important part is that we solve the problem for the organization so we can move on and stop suffering the consequences. If you want someone to blame, blame me. I care more about getting the job done than about my image." If they try to pursue it, it makes them look like a fool in front of everyone else. If they try to go after a member of my staff, I say something to the effect of "I am responsible for my team, so if this problem is their fault, it's my fault. If I feel that any member of my team is failing to perform adequately, I will take care of mentoring them, helping them, or firing them as necessary. It's not your responsibility, and none of your business. I don't tell you how to do your job, please stop interfering with mine." I've never had anyone stupid enough to be willing to push it beyond that.
You can probably get away with all of this, IF:
1) You are willing to be bold about it. Timidity will just get you stepped on.
2) You're high enough placed in the organization that upper management knows you.
3) You've already built some respect with some successes, so upper management knows that when you say you will do something, you mean it.
4) Most importantly, you MUST have a solution to propose IMMEDIATELY when you say you are going to take responsibility. That solution doesn't have to be comprehensive, you can propose to have particular people study the problem to determine what the next step is, but have SOMETHING to propose right away.
Social 0 + technical 1 = always employed but on the bottom rung of the ladder
Social 1 + technical 0 = better paid but expendable
Social 1 + technical 1 = very well paid, job offers for 9/10 applications instead of 1/10, ending up as a contractor, and nice holidays all over the world whenever you want.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
I can see many replies here that say the anecdote is obvious, and I can also see many that say it's rubbish. Both are correct, from my experience, but neither tells the full story.
"Stuart" didn't get fired because he was the nice guy. He got fired because nobody noticed how good he was at his job except the people under him. "Doug" kept his job through manipulating "Kelly": had she been doing her job properly, she would have spoken to "Stuart" as well to make a better decision about who to keep and who to fire.
The truth is that some people are simply stronger than others. It's possible to be a jerk and a coward at the same time, if you have jerks around you that are strong enough and loyal enough to protect you when you screw up. Similarly, it's possible to be a nice guy and still remain strong enough to stick up for yourself, if you want to end up sticking up for other nice guys as well. I've seen the former first-hand - actually, I've been the victim of it - but as for the latter, it might be a while before I can say how well that works.
Someone here has already posted that if the office-political nonsense is more influential than the work itself, and you're not prepared to play these sordid little games, then maybe "Stuart" and his ilk are better off to leave. I would definitely agree with this. This is the sort of situation that highlights the superficial nice guy who is really a jerk underneath, and these are the people you have to watch out for the most.
I'm in a bit of a dilemma about this again myself. I don't really want to leave my current job, but I can't stay in it unless its gets better. That, in turn, depends on a few people who are in the way, who have been in the way for months, and who don't seem to be getting out of the way. I suspect that there are some superficial nice guys at play: they seem nice, but they won't stick up for a nice guy like me because they're really jerks underneath and are in it more for themselves. It's true that it might not be the wisest move to quit, but I'm miserable here and I should at least be evaluating my options.
Attack its weak point for massive damage!
I watch Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott on the television all of time. He was born in rural Kansas and acts like a rube, the CNBC interviewer asked him some question and Scott's answer began "Gee whiz, I hope so." Scott is not a rube, you do not climb to the top of the Wal-Mart management chain by being a nice guy.
In the article it describes two management styles. The Stuart's of the world will consistently have/hold jobs. Being educated, able to handle your job responsibilities with tact and concern for your employees are skills that Doug doesn't possess. I would hate to work for a Doug. In fact, I have worked for a Doug types and Stuart types. I quit the Doug jobs. LOL Seriously, I am unemployed right now, and I am not afraid. I know I will find something. If you have a decent skill set, an education and have had relevant work experience then things will work out fine. If not, heck train for another arena that you are interested in!
I know I am not the norm, I have had six jobs in my 15 years of real job experience. I just don't see sticking with a company unless it is worth it, heck call me disloyal. I really wouldn't call it that, if companies treated their employees the way they should, most people wouldn't become job gypsies, LOL
I recently graduated and trust me if I don't find a job I really want right off the bat, I will take something I have to take and keep looking for the "long term" job with a growth pattern and a decent salary. I did it during my college years and I will continue to do it until I find the right place for myself.
In this article you have Stuart (the good guy or GG), Doug (the A$$wipe or AW) and Kelly (the incompetant bimbo or IB). The AW makes a deal with the IB to cover her ass and in return she cans the GG and promotes the AW. What's eventually going to happen is this: The GG's employees will find other jobs and quit. In their exit interviews they will blame the AW and IB for their leaving. Thus, a pattern will be discovered-one that is costing the company valuable employees. But since the IB's boss is also likely incompetant moron or IM himself, nothing will happen-yet.
Behind the IB's back, the AW will begin trashing her to her superiors. After all, he knows she's an IB-because she kept HIM, the AW instead of the GG. See, the AW wants the IB's job-and by showing the IM how dumb the IB is he's got a decent shot of getting it. Remember, the AW isn't dumb, he's just an AW.
Eventually, one of three things will happen: First, the AW will get the IB's job, 2/3 of the dept. will quit and the AW will get fired himself. Of course, the IM will get credit for cutting costs by all these people leaving. Second, the IB will discover a clue and either fire the AW herself, or demote him (and tell him why) so he quits himself. Of course, being an IB she will then proceed to hire an idiot or another AW to replace him and the cycle will repeat. Third, the entire department will get outsourced and the IM will still wind up being a hero for cutting expenses.
Have you noticed something interesting here? Nowhere is the GG in the plans. See, competant, nice guys DO finish last today! The problem is that EVERYONE in corporate America has recahed their level of imcompetance. Don't kid yourself, the downturn in our economy is primarily because of the collective incompetance of a LOT of people in decision making places. Those IMs are still there-and as long as they stay there things will not get better. See, they believe in CUTTING in bad times, NOT expanding. They have ZERO vision! Our one hope is the the BIGGEST and MOST POWERFUL IM's term ends tomorrow morning. let's hope that Obama doesn't wind up an IM himself.
This kind of reminds me when a dorky buddy of mine suddenly became an expert in "The Game".
Hehe, I remember that book/website/incoherent rant. It's partly true, but you're better off applying the non-asshole portions than going whole hog.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
As the inevitable cuts came, who do you think hung on to their job?
The head of human resources.
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
That's what being nice is -- finishing last. If you're an asshole and able to get away with it, people assume you're important -- at least more important than the people you're being an asshole to. And if those people let you get away with it, they are conceding that you're more important than them. Being an asshole all the time doesn't work (unless you really are the man on top), as if you're an asshole to someone who is more important and knows it, you'll be out on your ass. But being nice all the time is another way of saying "I'm on the bottom of the hierarchy, shit on me".
(what, cynical, me?)
Here's a couple ways to get started.
- Pay some attention to the people around you, and watch how they conduct themselves. Plenty of people are good at personal skills. The world is full of examples to learn from.
- Pick up a hobby that's generally involves some social interaction, and that you have no previous talent in. Go join a bowling league or something. The fact that you're new to it will make it more likely that you'll need to seek help from other people, hopefully forcing you to be more social. And many people actually enjoy the act of teaching and helping a fellow human being improve themselves, interacting with them won't be as hard as you think.
- Help with lots of little things around the office. Although it's sometimes annoying, it's actually a good thing to be one of the guys that people go to when they have a computer problem, or they need a ride to a meeting, or help carrying some boxes to their desk.
Note that none of these tips are particularly geared towards helping you pick up women. That "game" is a whole different thing, and one that I know even less about.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
How would you like to live through that. I did.
Before the year out Doug will have Kelly's job
Many people forget, that guy who's a shark who says "he will make you look good" is making bloody sure the people above you notice what he is doing as well (as long as he has not screwed up, if he has it will be your fault as his manager..at least that's what he will be saying behind your back) and when next round of cuts come along if you are still there, he will be stabbing you in the back for your job
Stuart's and Kellys are just road kill on the corporate ladder to the Doug's of this world and more fool the Kelly's for making it easy on them
If you know most of your shit, but at the same time you keep quality connections, you can always ask them for help. Then you return the favor and it's win-win.
Works for me.
For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of working on a radiator (or the built-in valve) I'll give some backing to the "horseshit" claim made by gatkinso.
Modern radiators (anything say in the last 20 years) have a drain valve that is removable. There are two generally accepted methods of removal.
1. any respected radiator shop will replace this valve by first desoldering the old valve and soldering in a new one.
2. any inexperienced, but enthusiastic first-timer will attempt to use the 'righty-tighty/lefty-loosey' paradigm and break it off. This method requires a trip to the previously mentioned 'respected radiator shop'
Otherwise, it would need to be installed inline of either radiator hose. That leads to other problems when the target is a newer vehicle with form-fitting hoses. A hose section would need to be cut for the 'valve' to be installed in-line. The major problem with this is that the radiator will drain to the level of the cut requiring the cooling system to be re-filled and air removed from the system. These tasks cannot be performed on a crawler as the vehicle has to be running to remove the air and the hood has to be opened to fill the radiator.
Flamebait for calling BS, or in this case HS? I think you got a raw deal dude. I agree with your post but lack moderator points to do-the-right-thing (TM) and mod you up.
"Lame" - Galaxar
Humor is one way people deal with things they would otherwise have a difficult time dealing with. Sorry we can't all be as advanced as you, buddha.
I'd have to say that the engineers who keep their jobs are the ones who figured out how to make themselves the most useful to most companies. If you can't fire someone, you fire someone else. If you're a nice guy/gal and you got fired, you've got to learn to gain some skills in some areas that could be more beneficial to the next place you work. I know firsthand that it sucks a lot more to fire a nice person than a suckup/dishonest/jerk type person. You want to do everything you can for the nice person to help them stay on as long as possible because they make your job, as a manager, a lot easier. If a company is keeping the guy who spends all his/her time backstabbing the rest of their team intentionally, I'd say either the management is really stupid to not get the picture, or they're pretty messed up people themselves. Especially if they laid off someone integral to a part of their company just because some other jerk who wasn't quite as qualified played mean. You're a lousy manager if you can't tell that one guy is screwing over his/her team for job security. As I said, the guys companies keep around are the guys who fit the plan the best. If they're firing their best people, they aren't going to be around too long anyway.
Exactly. This supposed guy was a jerk, as a nice guy would never feel up an uninterested girl, drunk or not. He apparently wasn't a very good jerk if he acted differently when not drunk, just probably a coward and loser.
I have to post anon for this, as I would be guilty by association
Employment gaps are red flags to HR. Your resume is not considered at all if gaps are spotted. No, don't even argue; they're not. Having no job for 6 months in a rotten economy is not a stumble you easily recover from. Gaps are career poison and I live in fear of an extended job loss.
I worked for a company that was small enough that there was no HR and all resumes were looked at. There were several things that immediately prevented an interview:
0. No degree
1. A very long work history (You either bounced a lot or were old)
2. Every acronym under the sun (You were a liar)
3. Gaps in employment (Other companies did not want you)
4. Experience not relevant to the job (You were fishing for anything)
5. Your name (You can tell a lot: gender, race, etc. --these were not my rules!!)
6. Diploma-mill degrees or trade schools.
As repugnant and unfair as those rules were...they sorta worked well.
Networking is the deliberate act of socializing with a large number of people in the off chance that one day one of them will offer you a sweet deal/job just because you talked about sports with him at a bar one night.
God, no. Networking involves a huge spectrum of social contacts, both work-related and not. Knowing that that guy you once worked on a project with knows everything there is to know about subject X will allow you to place a quick call to get something sorted, instead of having to go through "official channels", making you look incredibly efficient(and getting credit for what's inside his head, even if you're completely honest about how and where you got the info). Sticking around for a 5 minute casual chat with some colleagues and saying hi in the hallways does wonders if you later have to work with them on something again. Remember what people tell you about their lives, and enquire at a later point in time how they're doing on whatever subject they happened to bring up.
That shit is important to a lot of people. Enquiring about things that people really care about makes them feel good about themselves. Nothing wrong with that. I don't give a hoot about my or anyone else's birthday either, but then my opinions aren't always the most important, and on some subjects you have to compromise.
Besides, it's a lot harder to really dislike people you regularly have face to face contact with, and that goes both ways. Much easier to blame department Y for all the wrongs in the world if you've never met Joe, Jack and Jane that works their asses off down there.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
The rise of the MBA over the past fifty years has burdened this country with whole class of parasites. Look to that when you try to explain the fall of a once great nation.
"In most states tampering with an automobile is a felony."
I don't know about that, but I can verify that there are a number of states in which tampering with an automobile can strike one as being extremely entertaining.
Keep in mind people the article is an anecdote and only tells you what's going on in Kelly's mind. She chose Doug over Stuart simply because he was able to get a meeting. Had she exercised a little more forethought she might have asked herself the question, "Do I really need someone as ruthless as Doug working for me right now, or would Stuart's gifts allow me to achieve maximum results with those who remain?" In the end the decision was Kelly's. Assuming the survivors don't sabotage Doug, she might have made the right choice.
I think in the short term, nice people do finish last. However, when the jerk falls, he falls harder and has an even harder time getting back up. The nice guy in this story, while a short term victim, will have no shortage of excellent references and connections. The nice guy will have to worry about his reputation significantly less than the jerk. The jerk will have done so much backstabbing that he will have no one left around to support him. While a cliche, the saying, "What goes around, comes around," is quite a truism. The nice guy will really have the last laugh. I see this behavior going on in my workplace and I also have seen it backfire .... especially when the backstabbing victim involved a legally-protected, disabled employee. It cost the backstabber her job when it came full circle. Moral .... always be the bigger person
I decided a long time ago hanging onto my soul was more important than hanging on to my job.
The summary makes it out to be a choice between the evil, cold-blooded manager (Doug) and the warm, fatherly teamleader (Steve). As much as we all like to see the black-white picture, I'm frankly sick with it -- do we need to have Slashdot become the Cosmo Girl for Nerds?
Here's the reason why I think it is clear cut: After Stuart got fired everyone on his team threatened to quit. And when Kelly refused to change her mind, his team followed through. Now which kind of team manager would be better to have? I think it's very clear.
One way of looking at networking (since I'm replying to a post on Slashdot, not writing a f*cking book) is that it lowers social and financial transaction costs.
A key part of networking is doing favours to people. You give away 'stuff' in the natural course of things that cost you nothing. You recover those photos a contact lost because their PC caught a virus. You are funny and amusing company over drinks with your store of anecdotes, building social capital. As your network grows you put A in touch with B when they can solve each other's problems without asking a finder's fee (though you might joke about 'owing you one').
And then when stuff comes up you know nothing about, you have the favours in the bank to call Joe, or Mary or whoever, and have the advice and contacts to call on to fix whatever it is in seconds, not months, and often free or at worst at non-ripoff commercial rates.
Be nice, give away what costs you nothing but don't be the doormat pushover either. People will leech off you - watch for it and find other people. Learn some basic social skills and put in the time. If you are desperately shy and uncomfortable around others, try acting or learning an instrument: it did Tom Lehrer no harm way back!
There's a whole theory of business you can look up about 'internal transaction costs', why big companies exist; because it's just more efficient that way.
Your network, apart from giving you a life in the 'get a life' sense, also gives you dramatically reduced EXTERNAL transaction costs and hugely improves your life efficiency.
If the day comes when you start out in business yourself, then you bless your network. Over, and over, and over again. And when looking for a life partner, a recommendation from a friend who knows you well beats years of hanging around in bars.
In your teens you build technical skills. In your twenties you hone them and start building social skills (if not before). In later life you focus on life skills and social abilities more and more as your undoubted technical ability becomes less important than your ability to just make stuff happen quickly. And that's why you need a network.
IMHO YMMV
It's a trick question. Neither of them did, as the entire department was outsourced. Or right-sized. Or left-screwed. Or smart-wombatted. Or wang-smacked. Or whatever they're calling it these days.
That is the point I was getting at. Not all "nice guys" are actually nice. They would like to be jerks but do not dare to do so. My roomie believes that a lot of the self-professed nice guys are cowards and losers.
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
Can you recommend a resource for learning personal skills and politics? Books or something? How does one do this, exactly?
Strategy Representation: An Analysis of Planning Knowledge http://www.amazon.com/Strategy-Representation-Analysis-Planning-Knowledge/dp/0805845275
"Do Nice Engineers Finish Last In Tough Times?"
Only at companies that are failing because they are poorly managed. If you find yourself working at one of these companies, don't wait to be laid off, start looking for new employment now!
When I am in such a state, I find auto-tampering often leads to digital damage, so I usually quit and go get another cold one.
The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
They're about networking, social skills, and shameless self-promotion.
Couldn't have said it any better. It's not about being nice or an asshole, it's about making sure people know who you are and that you're valuable. People aren't going to fire Steve who wrote that great app "Steve's Manage Utility" that helped out a lot...
They are if "Doug" can claim credit for Steve's app, or define it as less important, or...
And, once enough ambitious self-promoters get high enough in management, there is basically no way to recover.
That is why companies should not live forever.
I bet not too many people joke around with you twice. Am I right?
Career advancement, especially in this right-sizing economy, is zero sum. There can only be one promotion. There are layoffs so only one person can keep their job. Only one person can be assigned a great project. If one person gets the prize, the other contenders will not. And the failed contenders will be bitter regardless of how nice the winner is.
In this environment, the atmosphere will always be unpleasant. You can try to be nice but you have to stand up for yourself and therefore piss other people off. A co-worker is the sole breadwinner of his family. You are a single guy who has tons of savings. Are you an asshole for fighting to keep your job even if he gets fired?
That is the reason why psychopaths get ahead. They do not care about others; they only care about advancing themselves. I do not think this is the best outcome but it makes sense that those who would do anything to get ahead end up getting ahead. Those who make "moral" sacrifices do not.
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
As for the Anonymous guy who has a thorn in his side about IT pros calling themselves engineers, well true not everyone one of use could be considered that, but the good ones can. We are given problems every day that we need to "engineer solutions for."
Dewser - all around techy "In the immortal words of Socrates - 'I drank what?'"
What manager relies on the last minute pitch by one of her employees to make decisions that important, I have no idea.
If she did not know which team was the more valuable one by then, she should have been the one to be sacked.
I don't know (of course), but I guess with what she gets paid, two of the lower-level people could have kept their jobs.
I've seen many an incompetent manager with a degree with such incompetence. Some of them minorities.
Just read the classics. The Prince and The Art of War. If you master those two books, suddenly the social climbing stuff is easy and transparent. And the people who care about social climbing but aren't masters become easy to manipulate.
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
Yes, I do have a job. (night shift janitor)
I don't know what the other 6 are up to lately though...
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
I got to play with 7 radiators in one of my cars (yep, 7, Toyota really did screw up the design of this one) All but the last custom made copper radiator were factory OEM models made of composite top and bottom caps, and the valve was most definitely a screw in (I'd love to see you solder that thing in myself though - respectable radiator shop or not!)
I haven't had the displeasure to check out any of my cars' radiators since, thank goodness.
Oh, and the first 6 replacements were on warranty. (I think I got my money's worth on that, as they also replaced all the sensors and the CPU as well - all while trying to track down a bad float in the intercooler... which I shorted out and never had another problem with...)
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
Skill is gold. He should started looking for a new job as soon as he realized he worked for asshats. If you have the skills, you will get a better job. And as far as jobs go in general, we'll all be working for the government in one way or another in the next 4 years anyway.
Besides, it's a lot harder to really dislike people you regularly have face to face contact with,
I was with you til this. The people I dislike most I have regular face to face contact with.
Insanity: voting in the same two parties over and over again and expecting different results
* http://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Anyone-Little-Relationships/dp/1593160267/
* http://www.amazon.com/How-Be-People-Magnet-Finding/dp/1593160054/
Ask for a mail or, preferably, a written request or assignment when it comes to stupid and/or illegal orders. Usually, you won't hear about it again, ever.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Looks like that eh.
A loop, by its nature, continues. If that didn't make sense, start reading this sentence again.
I'm sorry, but "networking" is not the ticket to success in a technical career. In a technical career, knowing your shit is simply far more important.
You're exactly right.
Signed,
Your Manager
I have lived a life of integrity and played nice. It doesn't get you ahead in life, but you sleep well. Make your choice.
It may seem odd to "brain people" like most geeks are, but most people react to other people based on what they seem like, not what they are. This has many reasons. Stereotypes being one. And stereotypes stretch beyond race and sex. It's also and most of the time appearance.
We want to be judged based on our performance. Not our appearance, our "style" (or lack thereof), our ability to suck up. But we forget that people who decide about our future rarely even understand our business. They don't know what we're doing. Essentially, we're some wizards performing our magic in our lair (aka server room) and they don't really want to know how we do it. They accept, at best, that we're a little odd and quirky, because that's how wizards are. But you may rest assured that they will react a lot more amiably to a "wizard" that shares their traits, or that they can somehow relate to.
I recently read a study why suits like suits. Why managers seem to value form so much over fact. Why they react better to someone in a "nice" suit than to the usual techie in his t-shirt and jeans, with sandals or boots instead of slippers. The bottom line was that people are more comfortable in the presence of peers. And when your attire "matches" what they're used to, they can see you as an equal, a peer, a "friend". That's basically the reason behind suits and ties. To display that you consider the other one as an equal and that you want to be with him on friendly terms. There's no logic reason behind it. Maybe it's our good ol' tribal brain that tells us this way, the one that I deal with belongs to "us".
So when one of the tech wizzes, who work magic the mere mortals they are don't understand, start to deal with the suits on their terms, they are immediately more relaxed in his presence and like him more.
It's odd. But, let's face it, managers didn't grow too far beyond their stone age chieftain stage. The "gimmegimmegimme - mineminemine" theme is still quite strong for them, so why do you think the rest changed too much?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Pay some attention to the people around you, and watch how they conduct themselves. Plenty of people are good at personal skills. The world is full of examples to learn from.
I think the suggestions you make are good, but I think the people who are going to have social problems of this magnitude aren't going to be helped by these suggestions. I think there's good reason for it, so hear me out.
Face it, being an employed adult is pretty late in the game to have a fundamental problem in an area that most people had figured out by second grade. I think if a person doesn't know how to be nice or act in a group by age 25, they probably have Asperger's or are high-functioning autistics. Studies have shown that people on the AS spectrum don't have neuron activity in the mirroring area of the brain -- the part that allows us to imitate others. So they can't just learn from examples. You can't treat Jane the way Bob treats Jane. Each relationship has its own unique context. AS people literally cannot perceive social things or events like facial expression, body language, emotion, reading between the lines.
I think for real AS people, they need more than just a few pointers. The probably need intensive socialization therapy so as not to simply come off as a jerk. AS people literally cannot percieve the same social cues and realities that non-aspies can.
Now that's just learning how to act in a group. How to actually deal with real office politics and succeed, or at least not get trampled and maintain yourself -- that's a different story. Even normal people have a hard time with that.
- Help with lots of little things around the office. Although it's sometimes annoying, it's actually a good thing to be one of the guys that people go to when they have a computer problem, or they need a ride to a meeting, or help carrying some boxes to their desk.
Is this really gonna save someone's job when the chips are down? Most of the obviously aspie people I've met also blow this helpfulness thing also. They just can't see the problem from the other person's perspective. They offer help when its not wanted, fix things that aren't broken but simply non-optimal, and are completely oblivious to polite dismissals of their offers of help, charging forward with their single-minded goal of being useful to someone else. When someone approaches them with an actual problem that they want help with, they are unable to understand the other's person's communication, or even the fact that another person *has a different way of seeing the world*, and might see a problem where the aspie sees none, or might not be totally on board with the Aspie's radical solution to "fix" things.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
"Oh, uh, Charlie - about your little problem - there are two kinds of people in this world: those who stand up and face the music, and those who run for cover. Cover is better." - Frank Slade
Its not who you know, much more important is who knows you.
You're confusing 'nice' with 'meek'. One can be courteous, friendly, ethical, and also politically astute and assertive. I won't comment on what that does for getting the chicks, but it's served me well in 25 + years of business. Having the balls to stand up to a dickhead doesn't need to affect how you behave to others who aren't out of line.
I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
intro paragraph shows where the real problem lies.
--
As the inevitable cuts came, who do you think hung on to their job?"
--
The problem is with management, not the game playing employee. If management would rather have someone who plays their kind of games than someone who takes responsibility and is a team player then the company will eventually falter. There are plenty of examples of this out there. The backstabbing blameshifter will eventually move into management and hire those he can use and abuse. There's a reason that the kinds of people that go into management are the way they are. And also the reason that we end up with Enron-style fiascoes.
Unless your into Buddhism being "nice" is in no way related with being a pushover.
As a general rule people who go to work each day and actually work hard and make a contribution will more often than not be noticed and commensuratly appreciated.
Its sometimes unfortunate one must spend time social engineering others so that shit can continue to get done - this doesn't make you a bad person unless what your doing is not ethical.
Thinking like a "victim" (basically TFA) is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
If you are in an environment where you have to be evil just to get by then it may be wise to concider finding a real job with peers who act like professionals. If your being shit canned from such an environment it may very well be for the best.
I see this question posted with some regularity Slashdot, so I thought I'd take a minute to explain things to the managers out there that haven't figured it out.
What happened to all the nice engineers?
The answer is simple: you did.
See, if you think back, really hard, you might vaguely remember a geeky Evan-from-Superbad look-alike who always seemed to want to spend time with the servers. He'd go along with you when you wanted to purchase McAfee for the corporate network because your brother-in-law needed the sale, stop by your place to clean up your kid's virus-infested Acer (he's into girls pissing, by the way), or even sat there and took the fall when all your remote sales reps were fucked by Blaster back in '03 because you thought firewalls were more trouble than they were worth.
At the time, you probably joked with your fellow department heads about how he was a little bitch, always following you around, trying to test patches before deploying them company-wide, begging you to pay attention to him. They probably teased you because they thought he was trying to justify his position. Given that his behavior was, admittedly, a little overly cautious, you vehemently denied taking his recommendations, and buttressed your position by claiming that you "know how to run your department." Besides, he totally wasn't your type. I mean, he was a little too short, or too bald, or too fat, or too smelly, or didn't know how to dress himself, or basically be or do any of the things that your tall, good-looking, fit, rich, stylish peers at the time pulled off with such ease.
Eventually, your pain-in-the-ass drifted away, as you played golf with the dude who sucked up and had his MCSE and keeping the other guy was, admittedly, a little weird, if you weren't going to promote him. More time passed, and the suck-up eventually caused the Finance server to crash at the end of your FY and didn't bother with back-ups, or cussed out your secretary, or you realized that the things that you valued in him weren't the kinds of things that make for a secure IT network with 99.999% up-time. So, now, your ass is in the sling, and after having tried Monster for several months having only encountered Miltons and consultants, you wonder, "What happened to all the nice engineers?"
Well, once again, you did.
You ignored the nice engineer. You stole his glory and passed the blame without reciprocating, in kind, with bonuses or recognition. You laughed at his foresight and resented his devotion. You valued the kiss-ass from your alma mater more than the attentive "just-a-" system admin. Eventually, he took the hint and moved on with his life. He probably came to realize, one day, that managers aren't really interested in engineers who test and then deploy; or do daily back-ups just because; or cleaned up the Sharepoint site because you mentioned, in passing, that HR complained that they couldn't find anything; or listen patiently when the ladies in Accounting bitch about Pogo locking up their machines. He came to realize that, if he wanted to keep a job with a manager like you, he'd have to act more like the suck-up that you had. He probably cleaned up his look, bought some golf clubs, and generally acted like more of an ass-kisser than he ever wanted to be.
Fact is, now, he's probably getting paid, and in a way, your ultimate rejection of him is to thank for that. And I'm sorry that it took the complete absence of "nice engineers" in your life for you to realize that you missed them and wanted them. Most managers will only have a handful of nice engineers stumble into their lives, if that.
So, if you're looking for a nice engineer, here's what you do:
1.) Build a time machine.
2.) Go back a few years and pull your head out of your ass.
3.) Take a look at what's right in front of you and grab ahold of it.
I suppose the other possibility is that you STILL don't really want a nice engineer, but you feel the pressure from the C-level executives to at least appear to have matured bey
Look after the boss' interests and he'll look after you.
Don't confuse the company's best interests with the boss' best interests.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
People who network well usually have more information than those going it alone. That's definitely an advantage for technical workers.
a)Be competent. You need to have a certain level of knowledge just to be able to ask the right questions.
b)Be friendly and helpful.
This will allow you to
c)Work with people who are competent and learn from them.
You should know some technical things yourself. Become an expert in at least one area (or a good generalist). But since you can't be an expert in everything (if you did, you'd be the founder of the company instead of asking for advice on Slashdot) you should at least know who knows the things you don't know.
Speaking hypothetically of course, if I had to become a self-promoting back-stabber to keep my job, I would rather behave properly and let nature take its course (even if it meant getting canned). And if the company is rewarding the self-promoting back-stabbers at the expense of team players, it's better to get out and try again somewhere else.
Not much sense in playing the game. If you decide to join the legion of self-promoting back stabbers, it's only a matter of time before someone plays the game more effectively than you do and then out you go.
You should only work with trustworthy people. If for some reason you cannot trust the people you work with, find people you CAN trust and go work with them instead.
Looking at the early meanings of the word, it is not hard to see why "nice" engineers finish last. When people say nice, they often mean "thoughtful" "considerate" or "kind". However, there are important distinctions, since people with latter attributes do not typically finish last.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=nice&searchmode=none
Have you guys seen Satyam fiasco in India? http://www.rediff.com/money/satyam.html?zcc=rl
I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
Define "backstabber" and define "nice." Yeah, a lot of "nice" engineers get canned. Some nice engineers are often also lacking in some major skill, which is why they have to be nice. And backstabbing is almost always misinterpreted by the person who gets the short stick. I think the vast majority of the time, an engineer who is smart and competent, is tough when s/he needs to be and respectful at other times, will rarely get the pink slip unfairly. But then again, sh*t happens, but probably not a good idea to assume sh*t always happens.
If Doug (in TFA) didn't sound like the Bush type, I don't know who does. He got away with it mostly without notice for about 5 years, but was eventually exposed.
Table-ized A.I.
Go see a counsellor. Just the exercise of explaining what you want to advance is worth the $75/hr. He'll give you some exercises which he'll follow up as well. (For example: "Ask your colleague what he's been doing this weekend and what feeling this gave him.")
8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
It doesn't make sense. In an unpleasant, demoralising environment you will not get the best out of people. Their energies will be focused on survival and watching their backs rather than putting their best into their work.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
I work for a company where the culture is one of co-operation, and a backstabber wouldn't last long. I've seen one or two come or go - when everyone else turns round and tells the truth of the situation they usually get the idea that this is not the place for them.
I know a company where backstabbers prospered. I was working for an external contractor at the time, and the successful people were ones who covered their backs, not those who worked well.
I remember there was one young programmer who produced more than the rest of a team of 20 put together and this is NOT an exaggeration. Occasionally his programs wouldn't work and he was constantly held to account. Other people would sometimes not write a lone of code without a comment "this done on advice of XXX".
This was very good for the company I worked for because we were frequently called in when things were bound to fail - it was a profitable game. We would see that a deadline couldn't be made, they would say "Thats fine, just tell us you'll make the best effort". Then when teh deadline was missed it was not the months that they had worked on it, but "they had been let down by company YYYY".
This was ten years ago and the company's IT department has almost gone - they outsource everything. The few remaining people who arrange outsourcing and give first line user support are the worst of the backstabbers though.
I am actually one of those coward losers who believes that he is a nice guy. What I am most shocked to learn here is that women actually know this about the supposedly non-asshole "nice" guys. I always felt safe in my secret, thinking that just being nice to them and not ever daring to make a move would at least help keep a neutral opinion of me, even if as usual I finish last and never get the girl. But now I learn that she knows that I am coward and a loser and I can't even hide that by being nice. Sigh.
Your posting was one of the more poignant ones I have read here today. Well said.
I take it, you haven't crimped a hose before?
There would be some air in there, but it would cycle out to the overflow bottle.
Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown
I was a consultant at a well known company in Marin County. I was hired in for a few months and given something difficult to do. Getting a handle on the job was the first hurdle, and had I received some cooperation, the team's group goals would have been completed in a more timely fashion. When I asked a few simple questions to get started, I was rebuffed with, "What? You don't know how to ^%*&^%?". The guy I asked was the only one who knew a certain trick, and depended on that to keep his job. After my fist contracting period ended, they asked me to stay, but the team dynamics stunk, and continued to stink until the company hired a women CEO and things changed mightily. I didn't ask this fellow to do my job, I just asked which way was up, and had he bothered to give me twenty minutes of help, I could have been a real asset to the department. It is obviously important to get your own work done, but helping out a little builds team trust and cohesion. Good managers know this.
Fake some girly love letters to his house from a whore, make sure his wife gets it, call up during the day, or hire a girl for the voice.
Or call his boss requesting pretending to be a reference check for his 'new job application', im sure that will get HIM sacked.
Payback like rapture can be fun if your unemployed.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
When you see 300,000 shops close there are many consequences.
1. lots of average joes - no jobs
2. lots of landlords no income
3. lots of wifes, no hubby money.
4. lots of security guards not needed.
5. lots of delivery/suppliers not needed
6. chain reaction goes on like a neutron party in a uranium pit.
add to that, trillions STOLEN by banks, local/state/federal govts geting MUCH less tax revenue due to zero capitol gains taxes, land price increases, wage taxes - govts will TAX you now MORE to death.
Its time for FIGHT , FLIGHT or FRAUD.
a) wont work, b) is hard with no cash, c) is easy.
Prepare for a revolution, pitch forks in front of CEO houses/govt town halls.
Thanks mr govt, if I as a company become huge, too huge to fail, make massive mistakes, loose billions, you will save me, and give me more for free or at 1% rates, but the little guy the guy who works hard, pays taxes (unlike fortune 500's offshore subs) gets shafted with MORE taxes, more laws, more expenses.
Its time to SACK 80% of the govt. They have been on their gravy train for too long with easy jobs, no ROI's or profits needed and guranteed pensions (stolen from taxes)
www.financialsense.com has more, time for all to learn, hear their Pod casts on News Hour.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Easy to manipulate - by, for example, recommending wrong guides to them ?-) Or did you want me to think that they are wrong guides to keep me away from them ? Or did you want me to think that you want me to think...
It kinda makes me wish that I could get a job as a garbage truck driver or something else that involves no office politics.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Golly, you must be loads of fun at parties!
.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I must go out and cut some co-workers brakelines before daylight comes.
None of that pantywaist "coolant crap sabotage" for THIS dude!
.
- aqk
F U
just worked an aesops fable into slashdot.
as tfa states, with technical skill i may not be immune to economic crisis, but lets at least acknowledge the fact that being fired doesnt mean as much to me as to the guy who swats nails for a living to support his aging parents and 2 kids. lets worry about him a bit more.
Good people go to bed earlier.
From Wikipedia (apt definition in my opinion):
"Engineers are concerned with developing economical and safe solutions to practical problems, by applying mathematics and scientific knowledge while considering technical constraints."
Do IT professionals:
- Develop economic and safe solutions to practical problems? Yep.
- Apply mathematics and scientific knowledge? Yep.
- Consider technical constraints? Yep.
Ditto for network Engineers.
So what is your frigging point?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
You don't need to be a sociopath to triumph in life.
The Prince and the Art of War are interesting reading in a world were power is an end to itself and human consequences don't matter.
In other words, the worlds described there are the realm of tyrants and despots with unbound power and no accountability.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
If you've got a full blown case of Ausergers, then I'm sorry, I'm not really qualified to help you. My advice isn't meant to solve any serious mental issues. I was approaching more from the position of the guy who was bored in grade school because everything was ridiculously easy, and so they develop the sort of mindset where "hey I don't need anyone's help, I'm smarter than everyone else, I don't need to play their little games..."
I was firmly in this category growing up. Shortly before college, family issues that I couldn't deal with on my own sort of reminded me how little I had figured out. In college I ended up taking all of the steps that I listed in my previous comment, and it really helped. I'm still not the most social guy out there. I don't particularly care for big parties, I usually prefer to spend my evenings at home relaxing in quiet than out with crowds. At work I'm still more of a technical guy and definitely not a schmoozing clients kind of a guy (although I do appreciate that clients often need to be schmoozed). I'd write more about this, but I really need to get dressed and go to work right now.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
There is no amount of schmoozing, and brown-nosing (for bunnies sakes, can't you use other expression?) that will get you anywhere if first you don't know your stuff.
The ticket to the park is your knowledge, playing the political game is all great and good, but at the end you will be judged mostly by how well you do your work, anything else is icing on the cake.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Nowadays you have more chances to find a job online than in the off chance that one of your acquaintances finding something for you.
I still would try to keep in touch with people, it does not harm, but the possibilities offered by networking in "meatsapce" nowadays are dwarfed by what you can find with a good CV and a bit of web surfing.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I am a very nice guy, honest, but nobody screws with me, Period. Have met plenty of people like this (and can think of many, Nelson mandela for example).
I don't understand why in some people's brains these character traits seem to be mutually exclusive.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Please show me any statistics or studies of any kind where this is even hinted at.
Is anything you are you hinting at your own prejudices. I see both assholes and nice honourable people being promoted, being successful and achieving what they want.
For every asshole CEO for example one can mention a successful one that wasn't such and that triumphed by being humble and fair with people around him.
All this bullshit about being aggressive to triumph in life has no basis in any certifiable and verifiable reality whatsoever.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
If you think that is progress, well, all the power to you.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Why waste time replacing the valve?
Just drill a properly sized hole in the radiator hose: If you are going to sabotage something, you don't want to get caught. Replacing a valve takes extra time with the target vehicle. Drilling a hole the correct size does not even require opening the hood. (caveat, some cars have plastic shields underneath & you will have to open something)
I call BS for this alone;)
duh
Every once and a while, you need to play the relationship maintenance game with your boss. If you're a nice guy and a quality employee you should really consider handing in a new resume. In it you should point out all of the responsibilities you have at your current job, experience and make the case for your professional worth. It's been my experience that management tends to forget just how much work you do and what responsibilities you have. Showing that you're invaluable to the company is a great way to say 'Hey, I work hard and I'm a great employee.' Your actions should speak louder than your words, so let them know what you've done.
They're about networking, social skills, and shameless self-promotion.
People like me, and I suspect most geeks on slashdot, want to be judged on our merits, but the fact is in most cases we won't be. So yes, nice engineers do finish last.
Two things:
1. Networking and social skills ARE merits to be judged by. Your social skills directly impact how effective you will be at your job. If I was hiring a programmer, the two most important things I'd look for are programming ability and social/communication skills.
2. I'm your standard "nice guy" who just does his job. I guess I'm decent at what I do -- I write code (I'm not an amazing uber-programmaer, but not bad -- I keep impressing my bosses everywhere I go, so I guess I'm good enough?). I don't play political games, don't do much self-promotion. I just be friendly and do my job. And every job I've been in, my managers have looked out for me, and worked hard to keep me around and happy.
So sure, there are dumb jerk managers out there. But it's not the rule -- plenty of managers recognize talent and do a good job of keeping productive workers happy. There's a general cynicism here on slashdot that says the opposite is true. I'm still not sure whether it's coming from antisocial difficult-to-work-with techies who are bitter that people don't like them, or whether all the people with bad managers are the only ones talking. But I do know that it's not my experience.
You rise to your own level of incompitance.
Even a garbage company has this stuff. How do you suppose they decide who gets the desk jobs vs who handles the medical waste?
There is only one kind of employment that doesn't require social climbing to advance: self employment. And there you better either have these skills, or such an amazing product that other people are applying those skills to get to you.
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
The story is interesting, but should not be titled do nice engineers finish last. The story is about two managers, reporting to another manager. Doug, Stuart, and Kelly are all in management - although they may have some engineering duties, they are not fundimentally engineers.
That said: For engineers, knowing your shit is required. Period. However, being nice also counts, as does schmoozing enough to have a head start on upcoming projects: This means you are nice enough, and get out enough to know what's coming down the pike before it "officially" hits your desk.
As far as the linked story of Doug, Stuart, and Kelly goes: It can go well, or badly. I recently saw a similar situation where Manager Stuart left the company after a power struggle which Manager Doug won. Doug promoted another guy to manage a newly demoted team (Sysadmins, who had been on the same team as Helpdesk): Let's call him Bad_Manager, who acted.. badly. One of the three administrators (sysadmin3) complained to Doug, and HR about Bad_Manager - then left after no action was taken. That sysadmin3 proverbially shot Bad_Manager on the way out the door, and Bad_Manager got demoted within a week. Everyone else who worked with sysadmin3 was very happy, and he was warned to be nice when filling out the security review that he eventually got for sysadmin3.
I suspect that Doug got dinged as well.
$.02
Yeah, I got a new radiator for my Toyota and it was composite as well.
So as an addendum to my post above, if the radiator is composite, buy a new one from the previously mentioned respected radiator shop.
"Lame" - Galaxar
Do nice engineers always finish last? Of course not - I think it is a sign of managerial incompetence if the management does not look more deeply at things than that. I think a more likely scenario is one where back-stabber does not so much benefit himself from his treason, but instead simply harms somebody else. Sensible managers will always look at the real requirements of a position; the higher the level of management, the more important are the "soft" skills of the person. The leader of a department does not need to be the one with the most technical expertise, but he does need to be able to manage his employees, which is something that requires good interpersonal skills. And in tough times, since the future of the company may well depend on the ability of management to mobilise the best in its employees, this is something that becomes more important exactly when it is tough.
However, being nice is not necessarily the same as being well qualified for a management position. A leader sometimes needs to do things that don't look or feel nice; it is actually possible to do those things in a way that avoid nastyness as much as possible while still being effective. It has a lot to do with things like respect, trust and openness; a good manager wouldn't listen to somebody's malicious gossip without checking out the facts - he would have a talk with the person being slandered at the very least, where he would be open about the issues and would show due respect and consideration for the employee.
Y'know, Einstein always gets credit for everything Leo Szilard did. Like inventing the atomic bomb, for example, and the so-called "Einstein Refrigerator".
Indira Ghandi said "there are two groups of people; those who do the work and those who take the credit. Try to be in the first group, there's less competition."
Otherwise, it would need to be installed inline of either radiator hose.
I am aware that a low-tech approach might be anathema in the context of Slashdot, but it seems to me that an efficacious means to the end might be the simple application of the point of a sharp knife to one of the two hoses. I would suggest the lower one, as escaping vapour would be less obvious at this point, and thus the risk of early discovery would be minimised.
It is quite remarkable how small a hole is required to cook an engine. I found this out to my cost a couple of years ago when a heater hose on a newly-reconditioned engine sprung a leak and completely fucked me up 40km into a 150km drive.
Can you recommend a resource for learning personal skills and politics? Books or something? How does one do this, exactly? Just show up for meetings and be nice to people? This kind of reminds me when a dorky buddy of mine suddenly became an expert in "The Game". He went from tolerable dork to "call the cops" creepy in a matter of weeks amongst female company. I can imagine a similar technically proficient but socially mal-adjusted IT guy making a similar transformation when they try to apply their engineering problem solving skills to office politics.
Yea... a lot of socially inept guys who get into "The Game" are like that. Most don't make it out. I was an instructor for a while at one of those companies, and all that stuff only makes sense to someone who already GETS IT on a basic level socially. Otherwise, you just get weird. The unmentioned first step is "Go become a normal, socially aware human being who occurs as normal to other people". Tell your friend I said that, and tell him to go look at Sinn's little ebook on the subject.
People rise to their own level of incompetence. In my experience, I've witnessed far too many technically incompetent people come through round after round of layoffs and reorganizations unscathed while the really intelligent people get the axe. Why? Charisma. In my experience, the more charismatic a person is the more incompetent they are. They can't do jack squat but they are able to bullsh*t their way through most things, deftly blame-shift their mistakes, and claim credit for other people's hard work.
Seeing how the whole point was to get away from the office, a loss would be victory ;).
It's not like you touch the garbage with your bare hands; in fact some of the more advanced truck models nowadays don't even require you to leave the cabin. The only real bad side to that job is having to drive in insanely tight spaces, but that's what insurance is for ;). And for the same reason you are unlikely to be fired without a good reason, since giving a $100,000+ truck to an new employee is always risky.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Since I think GP's intent was to inappropriately take its parent post seriously for comic effect, I think your "whoosh" misses the point entirely and I have no choice but to whoosh it. ...Whoosh.
DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
Your post is saying you can't fix the drain cock permanently once broke off, without draining. The parent seam to describe breaking the drain valve and fixing it temporarily. Now wheres the proof this is difficult? The needed tools, pliers to break the drain cock end, small tube to slide over the remaining stem with required burst pressure/temperature, hose clamp and plug. (or no remaining stem, then some JB waterweld.)
A previous manager of, obviously, dubious ethics, recommended Machiavelli as required management reading. He was very good at gaming the system to further his political career ambitions while thrashing the company he was working for at the same time. When a choice came to further a company project that would likely make us unpopular to our competitors, he observed our company's financial position (wasn't looking great) and frankly said that if we went ahead with the project none of us would likely find employment among the competitors after our current company went under. Thus he killed the project and went with a weak-competition implementation to make it look like he was busy doing his job whilst all the while sabotaging the company at the expense of his career. That company went under and had to 'reorganize' under bankruptcy. You'd like to believe that good work or honesty wins out -- but quiet often, I've found that not to be the case. Political and marketing manipulations will trump good design any day.
The boss picked the alpha male. Duh. That's how it works. Stuart doesn't have to be an ass to call Doug out, but he does need to grow a pair and learn how to assert dominance. If he did, not only would he be the logical choice to keep, but the show of strength would make Doug's antics backfire on him, further strengthening his alpha male position.
Lot's of fun... and I don't have some gay assed obstruficated email address either.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
"Thanks for the candy..."
But they get to like themselves and live into their nineties because of their stress free lives!
I've finally discovered perpetual energy! All I need to do is build a dildo-powered generator! I'll just modify a regular ICE generator - remove the engine head, loop back the oil and coolant routes, and use dildos to move the pistons. I suppose their speed is controlled by the level of female arousal, so I'll have to spend a little time developing a "throttle control" mechanism, but that's a minor technicality really. In theory it should be possible to get them running at a low speed just as they are.
And I just sent off my patent application so it's too late for you, loser!!!
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
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If it is, I don't believe you.
At my school (traditional engineering program) all the engineers taking more or less the same courses for the first two years (The engineering core: calculus, physics, differential equations, circuits 1, thermodynamics, chemistry, statics and materials, tech writing.) The cores purpose it to teach you how to approach problems the 'engineer way' by giving lots of different examples and teach the foundation of all the engineering disciplines. Without this coursework you can't pass the EIT (which tests you two years after you finish most of the material, how's that for checking your retention.)
The CS people on the other hand took calc for business majors and as they didn't usually have the math for real science they also took baby versions of physics and chemistry.
They did write a LOT more high level code then we did. We got a lot more (then 0) bench time, more assembler, different OS theory courses (ours involved writing code, they took OS theory without first learning assembler), and nitty gritty bit twiddling.
CompE people missed out on database theory and a shitload of business courses.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'