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Circuit Board Design For a Small Startup?
Patrick Bowman writes "I'm with a small (okay, it's just me) startup planning a camera-related USB device for the mass market. It's probably patentable so I can't give details. I can handle the software but have no hardware design or manufacturing experience. Does anyone have any recommendations for a company to handle the PCB design and manufacture? Instead of starting from scratch I've also considered approaching one of the companies (mostly in China) that make similar devices and asking them to modify their hardware for my requirements, and to provide their source for me to modify. Has anyone taken this route before? How did it work for you?"
Express PCB will do prototype PCBs for as little as $50 for three units. Free software to get started with (no autorouting but hey).
You should check out
http://www.dragonflycomputing.com/
Depends on where you are - I recommend working with someone local. This is the kind of project where you would want to work very closely with the manufacturer. If you happen to be in Colorado - I highly recommend Premier Manufacturing (pmscs.com). They're really good at working with specific customers.
In my direct experience, they are highly-skilled in copying/ripping off and even building on/improving on original ideas. Note: This is for stuff which is often already trademarked, registered and patented.
So, I'd suggest getting some VC/angel financing and professional help, and patent your idea to hell and back in major markets before doing anything else. OK, they'll take a huge chunk of the eventual gain, but 50% of something is a lot better than 100% of nothing.
It's nice and all to think you can be the next Richard Branson by doing it all yourself, but in reality very few businesses go from zero to IPO with a single guy pulling all the strings.
[FUCK BETA]
Why not just download the open-source suite, gEDA http://www.gpleda.org/ and build the board yourself. Then, you can send the gerber files to any manufacturing site you wish.
Think twice. If you request a vendor modifying his product, and it's easy enough he can do it right away -- how do you think you can ensure he won't run his product line to make more devices than you have requested?
By contract perhaps? Go and sue a chinese vendor in China, then...
First, build a prototype yourself so you know it will work. Or find someone at your location with the appropriate knowledge. Short distances speed up development. The one will then very probably be able to design a custom PCB out of the prototype. And the appropriate software (e.g. Eagle) isn't expensive.
But if you shouldn't know how to build the prototype yourself, I wonder how you know your invention will work at all...
However, good luck.
The slighly overweight penguin.
many many sources for this - look in trade journals such as EDN and Electronic Design and Embedded Systems Design.
To a lesser degree, some wisdom can be gleaned from Circuit Cellar Ink.
I have some (limited) experience with Asian contract mfrs, and would not recommend this for a startup.
GOOD LUCK
My advise is to learn to do as much as you can yourself.
Try not to rely on other companies or people for
consulting or design (expensive) until you are
sure you have hard data proving your design will
make money.
Most people think a startup is a risky project to
make lots of money. This is a wrong and dangerous
point of view.
A startup should be seen as a project to prove
the viability of a new business. You can tick
it as a success when that viability has been
established definitively as "yes" or "no",
while at the same time spending as little capital
a possible in the process.
Doing as much as possible yourself means less
chance waisting capital.
paulsheer@gmail.com
You may want to check out B&B Electronics. A few years ago, they were dealing with custom boards, not sure if they still do now, but you can check em out at http://www.bb-elec.com/
You can find somebody very capable on Guru.com. Ask for references from previous customers.
http://www.pad2pad.com/
A printed circuit board manufacturer providing all your custom printed circuit board
http://www.olimex.com/
Electronic design and PCB sub-contract assembly
http://www.eurocircuits.com/ ...also...
PCB manufacturing; verified a la carte on demand specifications
http://www.emachineshop.com/
Machine shop to create custom parts, products and prototypes
http://www.tapplastics.com/
TAP Plastics specialize in fiberglass resins and fabrics for fiberglass repair, plastic containers, and custom fabrication
(non-affiliation yadda yadda goes here)
"Good news, everyone!"
There is a cottage industry of small engineering firms that could suit your needs in the US (assuming your in the US). Generally they are run by senior engineers who have done many projects of similar size to what you're sort of talking about. Generally the firms in China do not do their own design work, and unless you speak Chinese, the language barriers will be an extra challenge to overcome, not to mention the difference in time zones. Also don't forget you will have to gain certain regulatory approvals depending on the nature of your product, and I doubt anyone in China has much background designing the product around these requirements. Personally I think it is best to stick with a local company, or at least one in the same country as you.
www.robots-everywhere.com If you need actual DESIGN done, we're pros. Matteo's one of the best CEs in the US right now and Reason...well he's Reason Bradley and needs no introduction. :P
Want it done right, price negotiable? Talk to us and we'll help you get what you need. :)
You should really get it working before you go down that road. If you want some hardware quickly and easily, go to a university and look for someone doing a senior project to design your electronics. This would only cost you $500 for parts. Otherwise, you should go about it in the same way you would look for a website designer.
If you want to do true mass-production, be prepared to raise well over $500,000 for all of the require overhead (Hard tooling for enclosures, test fixtures for automated testing, printing manuals, not to mention packing materials).
Don't worry about a patent or having China steal your IP. Everyone thinks their idea is revolutionary, and the China shops won't recognize a revolutionary product until it slaps them in the face. As far as patents go, any company that wants to rip you off can get around your patent very easily. Don't worry about the patent until you have a working product and you have the funding to mass-produce it.
The first hurdle is prototyping the device. If push comes to shove find a near-broke college student to do the hardware design for you, a better choice would be an outfit with experience such as Parallax, Systronix, or Digilent. But before you can go 'mass-market', you will need to test your device and not just to make sure it works. Does it meet all government requirements (FCC part 15)? Is it safe (UL certification)? Are there going to be any manufacturability issues (just because you made one does not mean someone can make 100,000 for you reliability and cheaply).
Something I don't think you will get from others is the suggestion that before you talk to anyone you get a copy of an excellent non-disclosure agreement (NDA).
With a good NDA you can talk freely about your project with little risk of the second party being able to talk to a third party without significant financial repercussions. I have worked in procurement* for the last sixteen years and I could talk for hours on the value of a good NDA. Try using Google for an example of a good NDA. They need not be complex, but they do need to spell out the repercussions if the second party talks about your idea with a third party. Get them to sign before you share any critical details.
*I hate that we stopped being purchasing and became procurement for one simple reason; one of the accepted definitions of someone who procures is pimp! I really don't think that is the impression a Fortune 500 company wants to make, but then they did not ask me. :)
We have always been at war with Eurasia!
Good luck getting source code from Chinese companies. I've tried a few times, and even with a company that I already buy tens of thousands of dollars of equipment from, the answer has always been an emphatic 'no'.
In some cases, the problem may be that the source code isn't theirs. Take two way radios, for example. There are many, many different models on the market that all share the same basic firmware. Each of the companies licenses it from one design house, probably along with some of the hardware designs, too.
It's often hard to tell who's even a manufacturer and who's just a trading company, unless you go and personally tour the factory. Even then they can make it difficult to figure out who's who.
Where I HAVE had a measure of success is in buying partial products. For example, if you look on SparkFun Electronics' website, you'll see a weather sensor assembly. I bought those from a weather station manufacturer in China, and since their usual wireless interface wasn't FCC approved and wasn't needed for my application anyway, I negotiated a deal to buy the bare sensors at a significantly reduced price that still gives them enough extra profit margin to make it worth the hassle (the unneeded touch screen display is the expensive part), while still being far cheaper than designing and producing my own hardware. The reason they're at SparkFun now is that I'm way behind schedule on designing my own electronics package and I got tired of them taking up warehouse space, and sold part of the lot at wholesale.
The good news is that lots of Chinese companies are basically family-owned, and you CAN sometimes get through to the people who make the decisions, where with US companies you might not. But again, I've never had any success getting firmware source (even relatively simple stuff that I could recreate myself in a week) from any of them. Cable assemblies, housings, and so forth, sure. But not a single line of code.
If you're serious about making it happen, consider catching a flight to Hong Kong next month. The Hong Kong Electronics Fair, electronicAsia, and the China Sourcing Fair are all there at the same time around the 12-16th, and the massive Canton Fair (this will be my first year there) is right after that in Guangzhou, but that takes a little more planning.
Just showing up in person and leaving business cards (bring a few hundred, seriously) will get you much better responses later in email. They know you're serious enough to make the trip, at least. That was a benefit I hadn't foreseen my first trip. Also, allow a couple of days extra after the fairs for meetings with vendors if you do make some good contacts.
Also, one book I've found particularly useful in understanding the business culture in China is "The Essential Guide for Buying from China's Manufacturers" by James Lord, ISBN 1419628461. Wish I'd read that before my first trip there. (Tip: Beware the phrase "no problem". =])
If you do make it to Hong Kong, drop me a note and I'll meet you for a beer some time.
scott@argentdata.com
I would recommend a product design firm. like these guys:
http://www.pdt.com/
As inspiration, you could look at Cobra as an example (they make GPS Naviagtion systems and radar detectors. The whole company is 2 guys who outsource everything).
I work at Plexus, a global Electronic Manufacturing Services company, in the engineering services division. We do hardware, PCB layout, software, mechanical, test, project management, etc. Whatever piece or pieces you are looking for, we can do. If you want to use us for manufacturing eventually, great. You pay for the development, so you own the IP and can take it wherever you want. We work with multi-billion dollar companies but also have worked with 1-man startups before.
http://www.plexus.com/contactus.php
A while back, I came across some articles on open source hardware and how exciting/fast growing those projects are. The thing isn't that you have a patentable idea. It's can you stay ahead once anyone else sees your idea and makes their slightly different copy of it?
Apparently, the thing with the OSH is that they released their base design and have basically something like a forum to suggest/give improvements. Of all the various Chinese fabs that they ordered a few thousand from, each of the chinese folks once learning that they could reuse the base hardware ran with it and used it for other stuff as well. The original folks are still abit ahead with better features/support than the rest, but its all the competition and low prices that make it possible.
Where they've learned how to make money is on the support and custom R&D end. Its amazing some of the things and prices on some of their products. But the profit margins are much, much lower than what you'd want. There was something about a device attached to art work to track it and it being sold for a $150-200 per device to museums. Their open source hardware could do the same thing for like $5-10 for a couple. They had a few other examples that were similar.
Now obviously you want your business to be long term profitable and not to just hand our your ideas and such. I'd suggest that you do a quick search in the OPH and just double check if anyone else is already doing what you are planning and if so how much it's going to cost them. It's liable to cost you about the same to produce something similar. Plus you might consider how wide spread some of those various projects are. If it looks like your idea can bring in money for the next 5 years, by all means patent it and make as much as you can off it. If it looks like there are a couple of others about ready to do the same thing and are giving away the specs at cost, then you should seriously think about joining up, or using their hardware for portions of your project or releasing your specs. It depends on how great your competitive advantage actually is about what you decide to do though.
One thing to remember though even if there is a project doing something similar or you just decide to use their hardware in your stuff, it's that you are selling your stuff to your clients. Is this something that you can make a living off of "support" or assisting others in setting it up? If not seriously think about how you tend to bring in money in the future. One day some one will be competing against you. Now a days that could be far sooner than you realize.
1) Although some people recommend learning it yourself, I would advice from experience to find someone. There are lots of people that offer such a service for a fairly low price, locally and they will help you improve your design with their experience. I haven't tried it myself, but elance.com seems like a good place to find someone like that. Remember, copying a reference design is often not the smartest choice, since quite a few reference designs use uncommon parts with long leadtimes and high prices. Having someone help you, who has the experience can/will save you a lot of time, hassles and money. And get you access to parts (a lot of companies don't sell to individuals).
2) A second way to find an experienced designer is to just ask a local PCB manufacturer if they know someone who does a lot of this stuff and is working freelance or at a small firm.
Good luck!
contact Dekimo (www.dekimo.be) - they do design and production on any level you want. :)
disclaimer - I work there
You can use the free tool eagle from cadsoft (free for small designs, and works on linux) to design the pcb
You probably won't make the best pcb at first, but it would get you going, don't try to make the pcb yourself, if you've never done that it would take you a lot of time, cost a lot for the equipment and you won't get good results without at least a month practise.
Lot's of small companies can make the pcb for you cheap, find a company close to home, it much more fun than supporting the chinese copy factory
I've had nothing but success with EZPCB. They charged around 150$ for 36 boards... They design, routing and assembly services too.
The way I coordinated with them, because they are in china, is by MSN instant messenger when I was about to go to bed.
They are courteous, they make a good product, and are inexpensive.
expect a 2 week delay from order to reception.
Lotsa good and horrible advice above.
If you're going to make a commercial product, and you want it to be manufacturable and have high yield and work reliably for more than a week, you need a lot of expert help.
You need an EE to design the circuit.
Then you need a manufacturing EE to redesign the circuit so it does not use any rare or known unreliable or hard to surface mount or single sourced parts.
Then you need a quality engineer who will redesign things so the hot voltage regulator is not right next to the electrolytic capacitors, and shuffle the pcb traces so they're less likely to short out from tin whiskers, and rearrange them for better ESD protection, and they will test it in an environmental chamber for performance over a wide temperature range.
Then you'll need a standards EE who will make sure it meets EU and US standards for safety and toxicity and flammability and electromagnetic emissions.
Then you need someone on site at the manufacturing facility to do QA and make sure they don't divert your product into the black or grey market.
Then you need enough extra time and money to do the whole thing over again if the original design still turns out to be unmanufacturable or have poor yield or reliability.
Don't feel too bad, when Apple set up their own disk drive manufacturing facility, the yield even after extensive tweaking was only about 40%. And that's with huge amounts of money and lots of experienced engineers in the area.
You need a whole lot more than a PCB house.
You want to target the mass-market, yet your firm consists of only you? You need to think about how you are going to get mass-market retailers to actually sell the thing, how you are going to get press coverage to publicize it, where you are going to get funding for the production runs, etc.
There are certainly ways to go about this for software (i.e. a game developer producing a little gem for XBox Live), but because of manufacturing costs, this is harder to do for hardware.
I think your best hope is to get a crude hardware prototype with your software running on it, and let an actual mass-market company buy it off of you (or hire you.) The alternative would be to somehow get funding, but if you have no experience in the industry, you won't find anybody willing to hand you money.
SirWired
Try http://www.bplan-gmbh.de/ :)
This sounds like you did not really think it all trough, and overestimate your own potential. It is not hard nowadays to produce a electronic prototype of most thinks you can think of, with the help of MCU's from AVR. The Arduino community does it all the time, so why not you? If you can demonstrate such a prototype, you can convince other people that it might make a profit. If you don't, well maybe sucking (up to) VC's (off) might work.
By the way, if you are not able to do the hardware side, then I very much doubt that your idea is more then a software solution. If it is not, it is not patentable. Please don't waste societies resources then.
This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
You can get some short-term IP protection by filing a PPA. Filing fee was $100 last I knew (small entity). Go to nolo.com and buy "Patent It Yourself" for about $30. Read, understand, and follow all safety instructions. Then you can talk to potential partners, investors, vendors, etc. more confidently.
If your device contains patentable ideas, I would really encourage you not to have someone in China or elsewhere out of country do it for you, otherwise any IP you may have in it may well be gone right away.
It is definitely the better idea to look up local electronics design and assembly companies and have them do the work for you. Not only are they going to be in the same timezone as you are and will generally turn out to be much more responsive with regards to modifications and problems than someone abroad.
Especially if you go with small businesses, your project is going to be much more relevant to them in turns of money in comparison to their total earnings, so you will be much more important to them than you would be to a large design and assembly company.
Just look up a few in the yellow pages, have a chat with them and go with the one(s) that you feel you are on the same "wavelength" on.
Also, you can sign Non Disclosure Agreements with them, which are much easier to enforce because only your local laws apply.
I own a small business that was looking to get some manufacturing work done. While the Chinese were dirt cheap, in the end their version of what is ethical business practice and what are's was turned out to be vastly different.
You also get what you pay for. Look to a company in the US first for starting out. Once you have a proven design and concept, then consider moving elsewhere to build what you have. The extra money up front will give you a better product!
http://4pcb.com/ great manufacturer located in Denver. They have great deals, willing to work with you at all levels of production (prototypes vs. actual production releases). If you are new to design they are very helpful and willing to test your designs before printing, to warn of any mistakes you may have.
Jesus saves souls and redeems them for valuable cash prizes
Someone suggested getting partners, at least an Electrical Engineer and a salesperson. I couldn't agree more. If you have a good idea and can handle the software side then great, thats your contribution to your new company but you need more. I would suggest finding an EE student at a local university with an interest in self-employment. As for sending your idea to China to get prototyped... take a look on Ebay for chinese iPhone clones. Do you really want to send your idea there? I realize that you probably dream of being the one and only #1 of your own company since you aren't already looking for partners but consider this... starting out your resources will be limitted. Cheap help will give you exactly what you pay for.. cheap product. That is, If they don't just run off with your idea. Good help will probably be out of reach for a while. Partners don't get paid in money. They are paid with a share in your company which at this point costs you nothing to give as it is only an idea. Ideas are a dime a dozen. It's the work and dedication of someone truly committed to making the idea real that will make or break you. New business take more commitment than babies to keep them alive it's only a partner who will have that kind of motivation. While you may think you lose out in the end by giving them a part of your company/idea you will also be gaining a part of the ideas, skills and work they put in which means you come out ahead. Your partners will be motivated to see you succede as their own success is tied to yours.
Check out the following groups:
The Open Hardware Foundation (www.openhardwarefoundation.org)
The Open Graphics Project (www.opengraphics.org, www.traversaltech.com)
Their OGD1 board is in prototypes. They should be able to help you with design and refer you to board fabrication companies.
its sad but true.
I almost went thru this myself. I'm a software guy but do a decent amount of hw design and building. I once designed a camera RF remote control (it was semi popular on the dpreview website where I posted the design) and I even started talking to a china business guy (I met on ebay as a seller for some of my raw parts) and we started to talk about what it would take to custom make the boards and the plastic boxes for it.
upfront tooling costs and all that would have been covered by me, not him. I'd have to take essentially all the risk.
and what would I get for it? my production run would be done but then, once done, they'd run 10x or 100x of their own from MY design! they'd screw me. I got that feeling loud and clear.
I didn't go any further. sad, isn't it? but I can't 'police' across the ocean and I do NOT want to spend my effort only to be robbed of my design so blatantely. I was told 'this is how it is' either deal with it or don't do it.
so I didn't do it.
if you can, do it locally. you have more control over things and the ethics, well, they may match yours a bit better.
(I also have learned a lot by hanging out on various DIY audio forums; there are a lot of folks who have experience with 'kit building', meaning they make/design their circuit and board (usually using Eagle) and then sell partial or full kits. its a good exercise to go thru and there's lot of info about it for people starting out, just check the web based audio forums or any other 'DIY' style forum).
Eagle isn't too bad and even a sw guy like me came up to speed on it in less than a week and had a board designed (on paper, at least; then I did the toner transfer method to get my first copper board made).
anyway, avoid china. unless you KNOW how to manage such a thing, most likely you will be taken to the cleaners ;(
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
back in 1994-95, I had an idea of converting tv signal to a video stream (ala sling media). Contacted a firm in Atlanta, and they were going to charge some 20K (guarenteed 3 boards, etc), but found a firm in HK that would do it for 5K. We opted to go with the 5K. Had issue after issue after issue with them. In the end, after spending 20K and still not having SQUAT from them, I called it quits. That is why Sling has a product and we did not. Otherwise, the unit would be different and it would have come from Colorado.
Do yourself a favor and do it local. Once you have the product selling, if you still feel like you can increase the margins by getting it done overseas, then and only then do it. Just keep in mind that Asia does not have the same laws and know it. Basically they will nickle and dime you to death. And for the states, I suggest knowing EXACTLY upfront what you need done. Shop around. They all have specialties of items that are one offs. There are a number of chips out there that will allow you to try various ideas.
One last thing. If you get your company going, if I may suggest, keep your engineers local. If you go over to Asia, any ideas you have will likely end up in some other product before yours is out the door.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
PSoC Express prototyping/design boards. Google that. Good luck on your quest.
Not too long ago I worked for a company that would take OEM (Gilbarco, Tokheim, etc.) gasoline pump parts (pcbs, panels, buttons, etc.) and send them to Shenzhen, China, to be ripped apart, analyzed and remade. IMO the recreated parts were better than the original.
So rather than trying to convince OEMs to modify their designs for your purposes, buy one, send it to such a company and pay FAR less while getting exactly what you need with full control over the manufacturing process.
My
Limekiller
...www.zengineersco.com. They do board design and prototyping, and can help you get set up with a manufacturer.
http://www.batchpcb.com/ you might have to wait a week or 2 but cheap and just what you are looking for.
slashdot troll = you make a compelling argument I do not like the implications of.
Just a thought
Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.
In my direct experience, they are highly-skilled in copying/ripping off and even building on/improving on original ideas.
I can second this experience having worked for an OEM.
The comments about financing work for some, but not for most. VC will *at least* want to see some finished product moving. Even then you can easily end up with nothing to show for your efforts partnering with VC.
Finally, if the device is so special, license it out as soon as possible. Why? Because if you are at all successful your idea will be copied and sold at a steep discount. And no, you won't be able to afford the litigation.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
I used:
http://www.technical-mandala.com/
for our machine controller board on a time and materials basis. I recommend them highly. They handle relatively small quantity production for us, too.
There is a Wired article that you might find informative. It chronicles a hardware startup. It won't help you with the specifics, but it will provide a heads-up for what you can expect dealing with a manufacturer from China, selling, etc.
For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.
An "Great Idea" is not an invention! Anyone who says otherwise is a douche-bag!
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
I am said hardware guy, inventor (14 issued so far) and entrepreneur. My advice is:
1. You can easily know for sure whether your device is patentable with a reasonably simple keyword search of USPTO databases.
2. If it is truly NEW, count on $10k to $12k to draft, file, and convince the examiner. With this in mind is it still worth the effort? How about if giant competitor A challenges you in court?
3. The only way you can know #2 above is through market analysis. DO THIS FIRST!
If the answer to the market question is not a profound slam dunk yes, I suggest you market it as a hobbyist accessory for low cost to try and recoup your development costs.
There are literally millions of hardware / PCBoard layout / manufacturing guys out there. A simple google search will show this.
Save your money by doing your homework and taking a cold hard look at your work through a skeptic's eyes.
Best of luck. I've had some luck at this, but I still have a day job too.
-m
It's a good idea to at least file a provisional patent on your concept before you discuss it with vendors. Write up your ideas and sketches as completely as you can, and send it in to the USPTO with a check for $110 using form SB16, available at: http://www.uspto.gov/web/forms/sb0016_fill.pdf
Pat, I'm going to assume that you have all the legal things under control and what you need now is someone to manufacture the device... Google "electronic contract manufacturers" [your city name]. Most of these places will have experience with what you want to accomplish hardware-wise and will sign non-disclosures, etc.. . Good luck!
"Trusting every aspect of our lives to a giant computer was the smartest thing we ever did.." Homer Simpson
Find a local electrical engineer who is willing to do consulting work and get that person to do the schematic and produce a working prototype. Many will also be capable of doing the pcb layout. You might end up buying the software for them. OrCAD is usable if it's a simple design. Altium/Protel is easier to use for larger projects.
Once you have a functioning layout, you can look at fab companies. At that point, it makes sense to go overseas, not before, because trying to get a decent hardware design done out-of-country is a nightmare. Even cross-country it's really hard: there are lots of tweaks required. Many fab companies can source the parts, do assembly, and test. Expect that to cost 3x as much as the board fabrication itself.
Then, you have a functional product, and you can start looking into what it's going to take to get it to a point where it can actually be sold: testing, quality, certification. Expect that to take as long and cost as much as the schematic/layout/fabrication/assembly part.
Marketing/advertising is at least as hard, but that part I don't know. For that matter, the marketing research, in the first place, that determines whether it's even worth doing, costs a bunch and takes a lot of time.
In conclusion (as they say) the software is about 15% of the project, and getting the other 85% funded and finished is all work that's as hard as the software, and that you're not good at, so you're probably going to have to purchase.
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
or figure this shit out for yourself
My understanding is that China doesn't have any stringent IP laws like the West does. I'd be very careful about taking your "patentable" ideas to such a country, if it really is that valuable to you.
http://www.redwirellc.com
Run by some very smart MIT guys with whom I am friends.
If it's "probably patentable", it's probably already been patented. Companies that take their IP seriously and engage in electronic development are very good at writing broad patents to protect their market from minor advancements. Unless your idea is already in the patent process and you have a competent patent attorney who's already helped you write the application, your idea is unlikely to be patented, and you are very likely to be robbed. Look at the history of the Microsoft Mouse patent lawsuits for examples of big companies ripping off small developers for clever improvement ideas, and _NEVER_ rely on an NDA with a big company to prevent them from rebranding and profiting from work you discussed in a closed meeting with them, looking for investment funds.
Invention means both the good idea and the reduction to practice (which, these days, means being able to write down a proposed physical embodiment that someone could build).
So, having the idea, but not having the skills, means you're NOT an inventor. You're an idea generator.
If the hardware requirements are simple enough, I would seriously consider doing the design in-house.
I have my own start-up company and faced the same situation when I first started. I am a computer engineer though, and can do the PCB design myself, but would rather outsource as much as possible. Long story short, after getting a number of quotes, a production ready PCB design (sans software) was around $50k for a fairly straight forward design. I don't know about you, but I didn't have that kind of cash to dump into a single design (I'm working with 4 discrete boards now).
Anyway, I started with PCB123 as it is free to get started and very easy to use. The downside is it does lock you into their PCB manufacturer (Sunstone Circuits) but it is a good place to start for prototype and initial production runs.
Furthermore, for prototypes and small scale production board assembly, I recommend hand assembly. Get yourself a pair of tweezers, a tub of solder paste (I prefer Kester Easy Profile 256, but I work in a RoHS exempt industry so this may not work for you), an electric skillet and a SMT rework station. For small batches, this is by far cheaper and faster than machine assembly - It's just not worth the time and cost of having an assembly house setup their equipment to only assemble a handful of boards. When you're ready for a final production run with a few thousand units, you'll obviously need the machine assembly - until then stick with hand assembly. I assure you hand SMT assembly is much easier than it may seem; I actually prefer it to hand through-hole assembly and now avoid through-hole like the plague on any designs I'll need to hand assemble.
Once you have a working design, you can dump your design files onto a production house and have the thing produced - many places you just need to send them your gerber files and bill of materials and they'll take care of the rest - PCB123 offers such a service via their partners. I would suggest staying local and avoiding China. I've heard many horror stories and what you save in production costs, you'll lose in quality, shipping costs, and turn-around times. When starting off, being able to call someone for support who speaks the same language as you and works the same hours as you is nearly priceless. Perhaps look to China for things like enclosures - I can't really give you advice there as that is not something I've had to deal with.
If you're capable of writing the embedded software for such a device, I'd be willing to bet you'd be capable of designing and building the device as well. It may take a bit of extra effort and require you to learn some new things, but I really don't think it is as difficult as it may seem. Look for any development kits that can do what you need, and then copy and modify their schematics for your own design - this is why part manufacturers produce these kits. If you don't feel comfortable doing this yourself, reach out to any electrical engineering friends you might have, or hire an EE as a part-time contractor. Your best bet may be to do the bulk of the leg work yourself, and hire an EE to look over your shoulder and give you guidance.
Just my $0.02
Try D3 Engineering out of Rochester, NY. They have experience designing hardware for "smart" cameras and also DSP software. We are currently subcontracting them to design custom hardware for video acquisition and port our software from a desktop environment onto a DSP.
You have a lot of work ahead of you.
First, you need to build a functional prototype. This doesn't have to be manufacturable at low cost; it just has to work. It can be larger than the production version and the parts cost may be higher. Then you'll have something to demo, and can get feedback on whether this is something worth making in quantity. This is something you can get done by one EE who does prototypes.
Second, you need to decide whether your idea is good enough to patent. If it's a "me-too" idea, or something that could be replaced by a similar device not covered by the patent, don't bother. Read "Patent It Yourself", from Nolo Press, for advice on this. Incidentally, nobody serious files provisional patents; you either file a real patent or don't bother.
The next step is to get a case designed. You're selling a camera accessory, where form factor and design are important. Right now, things are slow in the design business, and you can probably find someone competent to do your sketches and mockups. Start reading industrial design magazines so you understand how to talk to a designer.
Now it's business decision time. Is there a viable product in this? Can you afford to make it? Can you get enough money together? You now have something to show; it's not vaporware at this point. So you can get opinions on whether manufacturing it is a good idea.
Only now are you ready to talk about manufacturing. There are major companies that will do the whole job for you, such as Flextronics, which makes, among many other things, most of Microsoft's hardware products, including the Xboxes. Things are slow in that industry right now (Flextronics just did a major downsizing) so they'll probably talk to you. They don't finance you; that's your problem. They design the electronics, design the case, get the parts cost down, and make the thing to order. If you don't have enough money for them, they might pass you down to a lower-tier contract manufacturer.
This is exactly what my company does -- custom electronic design. We keep very little overhead and are small and flexible. We cover design to managing manufacturing--various parts as per the customer's need.
www.stratforddigital.ca
End of shameless plug.
James.
I know a company that might be able to help: http://www.asiabizgroup.com/ has a lot of experience helping high tech firms move into China, Taiwan, Japan, and Korea. They know a lot of OEMs, so may have some solid recommendations.
If your idea is truly novel, IP protection is paramount (patent,NDA...etc.). Then next is to produce a proof-of-concept, not so much a prototype that you can replicate for mass production. You need this to engage with customers (or reseller/partner) so that they will give you feedback. It may or may not be 100% what the end-user may want/need, hence the proof-of-concept. Once you delve/invest into a final design/mass production unit, it'll be tough to change if you're in a 'wrong' direction.
I run a contract technology development firm (KappaStone) based in Columbus, Ohio. We work with start-ups and small companies all the time and I'd be happy to sit down and talk about your concept. Although the bulk of our work is done on a cash basis, we are willing to discuss alternative agreements on a case-by-case basis.
If you have any interest, visit our site at http://www.kappastone.com or give us a call at 800-706-4534.
KappaStone
I work for a company called Phoenix International, we are fully subsidiary of John Deere. We do build to spec and build to print designs as well as manufacturing. We have facilities in the US as well as Mexico and India.
Check out our web-site.
http://www.phoeintl.com/
I'm a Software Engineer there, but you could contact someone from Marketing to talk about things.
Being a hardware type .. I found this an interesting post. I am evaluating the basic premise of the question. Dos the poster have the skills do design and or hack some existing device, produce a schematic and a BOM but just lacks the PCB layout experience or was looking for a near turn key solution for hardware from a concept?
There are threads here about various PCB houses that have limited layout software. This would assume that the poster can produce a schematic/BOM of a working device. And would also assume the ability to produce some kind of prototype (if some existing device could be modified I would guess some kind of hare ware hack). In the old days this would be called "blue wired". For most modern stuff I have found that 30AWG wire wrap wire is way to big. I use 34 - 40 AWG magnet wire. (the stuff that the insulation will cook off with a 'Hot' iron)
Good PCB layout tools are not cheap. However Eagle is affordable.
The idea of some kind of a partner has been recommended and is a good idea.
Good Luck
Hiring an EE and going straight to PCB design and fab is not a cheap proposition. You instead should focus on the intellectual property and in building a prototype/demo unit. This can be done on any number of FPGA development boards for a relatively low price. Depending on your specific requirements, you would spend anywhere from $200 to $6000 on one of these boards.
In particular:
1) Learn about FPGA's. Learn how to program in Verilog or VHDL or find a Computer Engineering grad student to help you with this.
2) Get an account on opencores.org. Identify the cores you can use so you don't have to reinvent the wheel. The USB core comes to mind.
3) Find an inexpensive FPGA development board that could host your prototype. Xilinx and Altera (the two leading FPGA manufacturers) sell these and offer a "web kit" version of their software for free. The Xilinx Spartan 3A Video Starter Kit may work for you.
for small things it is quite ok. The autorouting sucks an needs lots of manual tuning, but thts ok/
A provisional patent doesn't need a lawyer, and is all of $80. Go to the uspto.gov website.
Get Eagle. It's free and there are a lot of part libraries out there. It's quite backward, but you will soon learn that most electronics CAD tools are. I guess there isn't all THAT much overlap between ECE and HCI people... Have Eagle produce a Gerber file and then send it off to your favorite board house. Happy routing :)
I find it amusing how Slashdotters are willing to criticise Microsoft for its emphasis on IP, yet they are the first to give advice on how to protect IP when "one of them" asks a question about outsourcing to China or elsewhere.
Most people in consumer electronics do their own software & their own hardware. There aren't big companies with dedicated job functions like there were.
I own a startup as well. I formed an LLC (just myself the LLC is in case I get sued) and I am still working very very hard. Learn from my mistakes, PATENT NOTHING! I mean this, why? Because by the time you have a working product your publish date will probably be years ago and your patent will probably have already gone through at least one or two rejects. According to the IP lawyer I didn't have on the pay roll but was willing to help out, you should expect a few rejects regardless of how NON obvious the design is.
My products have nothing to do with USB cameras but it seams like we have a similar problem, there was something very close in the market but not exactly what you were looking for. I've had a couple EE courses in college so I started with looking into chip design myself. Cypress has a great PSoC system you can look into. Just about everything you'd need is on that board. Designing it yourself, building it yourself before going to anyone is the best route if you can.
What I ended up doing though was contacting a local PCB, they directed me to the engineer they had on contract. I had the EE guy sign an NDA and I paid him about a grand. He was a great guy to work with! I went to his home and we laid out the plans on the kitchen table. I learned a few things from the guy but being who I am I just about had the design ready for him by the time he suggested anything. A year passed after this and I had worked on the design a lot. One month before my patent was published Apple came out with a competing product, odd to say the least. Suffice it to say it made me paranoid.
I went back to the drawing board many many times after seeing that EE guy. I eventually came up with a design that avoids all other patents, it is a ton cheaper for startup as there is no hardware to manufact on the client side...but the down side is I have no IP protection and I probably never will...it will come down to marketing.
Here is the bottom line, building a startup is hard. If you can do everything you want to do with existing hardware on the market then design software around that...avoid having to sell any hardware yourself. While this is probably not an option for you and you will have to design hardware and sell it...AVOID CHINA! Contract law means something here and that's all an NDA is...good luck enforcing that in China on your startup income.
You're going down a long long road, I hope you're determined. You will have nay sayers, you will have competing products, you will have every large company in the market steal your idea and while your over a barrel they tell you to sue them. Every card is stacked against you from developing, to coding, to marketing...DO NOT FORGET THIS. Being the little guy means nothing today. It used to be the case that IP rights protected the little guy but that was a long time ago. Today using the patent system means everyone gets to know your product before you have a product in hand. Keep things small with low TCO, keep things close to home to avoid losing trade secrets etc, don't trust the patent system it is broken and they will reject your idea regardless of how great it is and you can expect at least 2-5 years before even having a good idea where your patent will go. The patent system is a lot like congress and bills today...it goes where the money is....and I'm guessing that isn't you.
It was great to read this! I'm glad I'm not the only one in this boat. I'll try and contact you and see if I can give you any other suggestions. Don't lose hope, and don't expect hope is all you need...after all...hope without action is sloth right :-)
~AC
Cole Design and Development, LLC specializes in micro electronic design and embedded software development. Akron, Ohio-based.
http://www.coledd.com
You need an engineer at this point, not a PCB design.
Why not hire an engineer to design it? Give someone in the U.S. a job we need them right now.
Am I lying when I tell you that im telling the truth? Or am I telling the truth when I say that Im lying?
Ok in a nutshell this is how a PCB gets designed and made:
1) You have your PCB designer - This guy reads all the datasheets of every hardware component you need and decides how best to tie them together. He'll need to consider signal integrity, power, environmental conditions and matching voltage standards etc. For a large or complex project, there might be extra consultants on hand to run simulations and design the power sections.
2) Layout Engineer - This is the guy/gal that takes a schematic drawing and actually convert it to something physical on a board. The PCB Designer will work close with the layout person to make sure the traces are thick enough, the signals are routed properly so there's no interference, etc. The layout person will make sure it meets the design requirements of the fab house so that the board CAN be made using a board material that is sufficient for noise/power/price.
3) PCB Board Manufacturer: They just make the PCB. You pay for the silkscreen and stuff. Once the silkscreen is made and you made a boo-boo, you have to buy a new one.
4) Operations or Purchaser: They order the parts and make sure they match what you asked for on time. Might also double check that they meet RoHS or restriction of hazardous materials (Mandatory for consumer electronics). Your PCB Designer should be already be aware of this.
5) Assembly: This is a plant that will actually solder/bake your parts onto the printed circuit board. They might handle your testing as well.
6) Board testing: Depending on complexity and quantities, you will need a "chicken-pecker" board checker or a full blow ICT clamshell. You want to be sure the design is pretty final before ordering a ICT test fixture.
7) Additional QA/Testing: Probably a trained technician that runs test scripts on your product.
8) UL/Compliance testing: you need someone who's familiar with the rules and requirements of the countries you're exporting to. They'll hire out a UL lab and get your hardware tested. Once it passes you're in luck.
9) EM interference, same as 8 above. Your product has to be taken to a lab to make sure there's not too much noise generated from it.
10) Profit, maybe.
Most deals do NOT go public. Google and all those big deals are the minority of VC deals. Most of the time, the company is sold off to a bigger company for cash and maybe some stock in the purchasing corporation.
Building a working prototype of USB peripheral using development kit is not that difficult. Many of the kits available from Cypress Semiconductor include a daughter card specifically for prototyping. Your cost for a development kit should run about $500 and the cost of licensing the full SDK for firmware development should run about $1000 (you *might* be able to get by with the free trial version for your initial prototype build). Depending on the complexity of your design, a consultant could probably get you up and running with 20 - 40 hours of work with an hourly rate of $150 - $200 (consider going the DIY route if this cost is prohibitive). Once you have a working prototype you need to pound the pavement to get the Angel investment to take your product through a full design cycle.
I can't give details
Get over it. The whole secretiveness about our product thing is a fast track to failure in a startup company.
You need customers, first adopters, partners and venture capitalists. Until you're ready to talk freely, they won't even return your phone call. Worry about the patents when you actually have a revenue stream.
Seriously. How many hardware geeks here on slashdot who might have been interested in your project chose not to contact you because it isn't worth their time to chase a secret of dubious quality?
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
freescale has a reference board for a webcam, it may be usb. Reference designs are generally wide-open-source (as opposed to merely open-source).
You say this is a mass market item. You say you are a one man shop. Guess what -- you can't scale yourself up to deliver to a mass market fast enough to be successful. IOW: your business model is utterly broken. Not to worry, I will describe a proven one that works well:
Step 1: Build a quick prototype using whatever and whoever is convenient. I would suggest hiring someone local to do the PCB design for you, get the source files from them so you can later do it yourself or hire someone else.
Step 2: Have the PCB's done by APCircuits or PCBExpress or similar. Or a local shop. You might even consider having a assembly house do your prototypes. Get it all working, mostly. The prototype can be ugly. You might find a local shop that can do all this from PCB design to assembly for you -- probably a good way to go if you can.
Steps 1 and 2 will cost you several (or even many) times what a production version of the unit will cost. So:
Step 3: Construct a bill-of-materials spreadsheet that is correct plus-or-minus 5 cents based on what it costs to source parts and manufacture in China. 5 cents. I'm not kidding. Real sourced-in-China 100K unit prices. I'm not kidding. Do your homework here.
Step 4: Market the idea to companies that have the manufacturing expertise and the marketing channel to deliver to the mass market. Sign a development contract where you: a) deliver a production design, b) support their PCB and manufacturing and purchasing people in China to bring up production, c) get progress payments for development engineering work so you can eat during that time, d) get a modest royalty if your product actually eventually ships.
This works. I know people that are quite successful with this model. They live well. They work their asses off, too, though.
http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
Great schematic capture, auto-router, parts list, etc.. all open source!
-Marko
There are several steps in getting a product to market, and it sounds as though you are well on your way. First, I want to emphasize that hardware design in inherently more risky than software design, so you should first learn about systems engineering from someone who has put a product such as this together. If you tell yourself that you can do the software, make sure you are equally confident that your team can put the hardware together. It has been my experience that the hardware itself can be one of the most challenging as well as one of the most expensive aspects of the system design process. First, you must think from the system level about the product both in terms of the overall design specifications and the engineering required to meet your specification to meet a particular cost model. You will need someone to handle software (it sounds as though you have that covered), electronic design, mechanical design, PCB layout, sensor and optical system requirements, and how you will put it all together. Since you asked about PCBs, it is absolutely necessary that you find an experienced PCB engineer, either by hiring one (the market is great for this right now, if you have the money to hire) or by finding someone with hardware design experience to work as a consultant and could select the components, layout the board, and then work with a mechanical engineer to package the system for the mass market. There are many companies that are more than happy to contract with you to do this, but beware that they have different focuses in terms of quantity, reliability, and, most importantly, cost. The design process prior to going to a Chinese manufacturer will usually include a working prototype, a couple of design iterations, and a final (usually several copies) of the final test prototype for verification and comparison to the Chinese production model. Simply put, you donâ(TM)t want to order 50000 buggy boards. Express PCB will print the board itself, but you will need another shop to drop the components and solder them to the board. Iâ(TM)ve had luck with a couple of companies that are local to me and you will likely be able to find a shop that can provide you with PCB finishing services. Your PCB engineer will likely help you select components (probably from DigiKey) and whatever sensor you are using (likely directly from Kodak, depending on the sensor, or from a vendor that will give you a complete OEM camera (that is usually a better option if you have no sensor integration experience, but will typically cost more per unit, so if you are going to mass market the camera, youâ(TM)ll want to look into other options). In summary, your team will need to work on the product design from different perspectives, both the systems/business/cost side and the design/fabricate/testing side.
I know a few electrical engineers that could probably do this in their sleep, and make it fit in an Altoids tin. Find someone like that, hire him under contract so you can enforce an NDA, then run some prototype PCBs locally where the turnaround time is fairly minimal. Once you have a design that works, then you go to various (probably Chinese) companies for bids with full plans and part lists already in hand. Hopefully you will be able to complete the software end yourself, as this is where you will have to continually tweak and upgrade. The hardware shouldn't change unless some of your parts become unavailable or excessively expensive.
Make sure you know what your primary requirements are -- remember the "good, cheap, fast, choose any two" rule applies here. Know where you want to stand on the balance of the three.
Mal-2
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
I want to make a device and sell it to millions of people with shoddy software. Then I'll go out of business and move to the bahamas and leave all the mom and pop computer shops out there to bang their heads on the wall supporting my product.
i suggest you think this over really carefully before you get started. designing a mass producible electronic device, with no experience or a fat wallet to pay some company to do it for you is near impossible. even for people skilled in this field this is not a task to be started all by yourself and without a pretty hefty budget.
it would be best to make it work as a prototype on a breadboard or smth to make sure you get your circuitry and software right before you even start thinking about making it mass producible
Bunnie Huang (for Xbox hacking and Chumby fame) has some interesting experiences, mostly positive, doing similar things in China. See his blog.
Quit fucking around on Slashdot and hire a hardware designer. It doesn't even have to be an EE. Right now hobbyists are going from idea to product without any formal training.
Eagle is available on linux too.
I wonder how much of his idea has been tested. I had an idea, and being a stubborn bastard as well as ignorant of electronics, I decided to learn by doing. I quickly found that I was focussed on the end product when I found that I couldn't provide enough power in the space I had decided to work with. It was not an option to make more space available (at least not unless I prototyped using surface mount, which is expensive). But at least I found out by designing a schematic, getting the parts and soldering it up. It was a waste of money, but spare diodes are never wasted and I have a new interest. So my idea which I wanted to get built yesterday is on the back burner until I can find a way around it.
This is without mentioning that I was probably infringing on someones patent anyway - I never checked. Also, just as I was coming to this final realisation, I came across someone already selling something that was almost exactly what I wanted. I could hack their gear to get my result. Selling it would be harder of course. And it was still too big.
...to this question, you're probably not capable of designing and prototyping this product and bringing it to market. Not to be rude and blunt, but it's the truth. Find someone who can or quietly write your idea in a notebook and store it away.
Tired of being "punished" by the Slashdot $rtbl since 2002. I'm now over at http://soylentnews.org/ .
Try Subsite electronics, they are primarily an underground locator electronics manufacturer, but they also outsource their engineers when they are low on projects (at least when I worked there they did). They are very capable of doing your design work, and were pretty friendly last time I talked to them. Their website is subsite.com - make sure you are sent to someone in the subsite building (They are owned by ditchwitch). Good luck.
I work for / partially own InDesign, LLC (http://indesign-llc.com) that does exactly this type of contract product design. Located in Indianapolis, we have in house approximately 60 employees. Most are engineers, with many years of electrical, firmware, PCB layout, PCB assembly, test, and mechanical experience. We have done several camera related products, and a large number of our product designs include USB in some capacity. We can do just hardware and mechanical if you have firmware resources available. We can do quick low volume prototypes, or design for and work with an outside third party manufacturer for high volumes. Feel free to respond to my email address above, or contact one of our account managers from the InDesign website to learn more about our capabilities.
-- the computer doesn't want any beer, no matter how much you think it does. NEVER, EVER feed your computer beer.
One of my clients, Digitec, does a great job with PCB design and engineering. They are in the midwest and have over 25 years of experience. Their site is a bit outdated, but you can find out more at http://digitecinc.com.
always on the edge...rift design studio
Go to your local tech college and try to recruit help. Give them stake in the company.
Stay away from the chinese as they are liable to get the stolen version of your product to market before you do.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Here's a story in wired about the dudes who invented to fitbit and their process of getting it to market:
http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2009/03/changing-econom.html
http://www.tinaja.com/glib/casagpat.pdf is a good read by Don Lancaster (writer of the "TTL Cookbook" - yeah, that Don Lancaster) and why he considers the patent system to be a games that is stacked against the small player.
Coming to Slashdot, of all places, begging for help while swinging your "not yours, I want to patent it" bat around is just pathetic.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
Engineering Students in many universities need some form of a final project, and original ideas are often lacking. Something original and within there abilities is a win-win for you are them.
PATENT IT FIRST and you can divulge it to anyone. this will help if you do decide to manufacture as you can give the company explicit details so they can give you a more accurate quote.
BEFORE SPEC'ING OUT MANUFACTURERS YOU MUST HAVE A WORKING PROTOTYPE.
going directly into manufacturing is extremely risky with absolutely no payoff. Prototypes will tell you what needs to change, what can be omitted etc. giving you a much better device and likely cheaper.
In my undergraduate career as a senior project we built a fully functioning medical device. It was based on research that only provided an algorithm and we (a team of 10 undergraduate students, 2 computer engineers. 2 electrical engineers. 4 biomedical engineers, and 2 industrial designers) were able to design a prototype using pretty close to what the final manufacturing process would require.
The project has since been picked up and i currently work as a consultant on its commercial final design awaiting FDA approval.
one thing to look out for is the universities ownership of the project. There is normally nothing in the universities policies that simply gives them ownership because a student created it, however if said student is using the universities facilities and resources they then can make a pretty strong claim toward ownership. so make sure you check into this first.
So basically, you need an electrical and/or computer engineer at the very minimum so that the device can even be built. I've done this kind of work before, and it never gets old when someone is stunned that the price tag is in the thousands rather than $300 or so. There is a rather misguided notion that PCB design, component selection, PIC programming, failsafe testing, etc, is the same as photoshopping a zit out of a picture at the London Drugs photo booth. To get this kind of work done, you're going to be paying for people who've spent something like a minimum of 5 years in university, 5 years in industry, and something like $150 000 to pay for all the training to boot.
Let's assume you have a plan for marketing the product. If your software can run on an existing product, you may be able to strike a deal with that product's maker. Something like he will furnish up assembled and tested hardware at "wholesale" (something less than retail). Don't count on talking anyone into doing a special design just for you, not unless you are a peerless salesman who convinces the maker that you will take hundreds or thousands of units.
If you have to roll your own hardware (the likely case) then you have one man hardware project. You don't want a company, you want one good hardware designer. This guy will draw the electrical schematics, do the printed circuit board layout (Gerber files) , send the Gerber's to a printed circuit board fab house, assemble, debug and test the prototype unit, program all the programmable logic devices, furnish a written programmer's model of the gadget, and design a factory acceptance test procedure. For extra credit he can find or design casework (molded plastic?). With luck you can find a case that you can buy. Molding your own case requires expensive dies, say $30,000 for soft tooling.
The hardware guy will need access to test equipment, say a scope, device programmers and a logic analyser. He will also need access to a schematic capture program (Orcad), a PC layout program (PADS), and a programmable logic programming system.
Figure three months design followed by 6 months debugging of prototype, longer if trouble is encountered.
You can find guys who will work as contract engineers or guys that will join your startup, in return for a share of the winnings if the project works. You want some experience, the right guy will have designed a USB or camera product.
WTF Google that Einstein "quote" and the only place it shows up is this post.
First think about your costs. FCC, CE, UL, etc.. certifications can end up more than the cost to develop a new product (one man operation.) Patentable, forget this, you can't afford to patent it yet, get the product first out, then worry about patenting it.
To all of you who replied to my initial post, thank you. I've read all the responses carefully, even the trolls: they too have their story. There's a wealth of excellent advice here and a high signal-to-noise ratio. Thanks in particular to those of you who took the time to provide thoughtful and well-rounded answers. Will this idea fly? Beats me. But I hope to have a lot of fun finding out.
Check out the "avoid patents" development strategy and tactics that has been developed and tested by technical writer and engineer Don Lancaster.
Don wrote "CMOS Cookbook" around 1973 and he is still active selling some specialized products, books, EBay stuff and more.
His strategy is: avoid patents, build a kit or add on first, stay below the radar of the big players, treat the project as part of a process rather than a one time bonanza.
www.tinaja.com
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Lancaster
Prevas is my employer, a scandinavian-based design house, specialized in developing intelligence in products and industrial systems for the world's leading companies. Over 550 consultants in these fields help make our clients more competitive through innovative, profitable, futureproof solutions.
Prevas is a publicly traded IT consulting company with rock-solid expertise and 20 years' experience. We are based in the Nordic countries and serve clients in a range of industries around the globe.
One of Prevas' strongest competitive advantages is our ability to deliver IT solutions at previously agreed upon terms. These terms might be regarding the functional requirements, financial requirements, or both.
* Prevas deliver 95% of its projects on time, with just 3% of all projects requiring warranty services upon completion.
* As far as customer satisfaction goes, our customer rate us at 8.6 on a scale of 1 to 10.
Prevas is a Microsoft Windows Embedded Gold Partner as well as National Instruments Alliance Program Partner, and - of course - have excellent relationship with selected PCB manufacturing plants that are capable of producing anything from prototype to million-unit series. Prevas also have exellent knowledge of the UL, CE, WEE, RoHS and other directives required for producing products for the major world markets.
Reference customers include both major companies such as Nokia, ABB, Panasonic, Siemens, Stoneridge, Volvo, and minor companies that are still growing, including start-ups.
Sensible Electronics. We do schematic capture (analog and digital design, but you already did design, did you?), PCB layout, firmware.
Call (805)-750-0665 any time (this is my cellular), ask Lev.
PCB prototype I usually order from "www.pcbfabexpress.com". "Sierra Proto Express" faster but more expensive. China is good for mass production, not for prototype or design.
For small quantities on a small system (using just a off design), I did not go through all this. BUT, I suspect that if the guy has a hit, and wants to scale up, he will in fact need all that you said.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
You asked for a recommendation for a company, so I'll give you one. There's a company called Applied Integration. I used to work for them (appropriate disclosure, I think) designing digital video surveillance systems (I worked on the software side). The market dropped out after the dot-com bomb, and the owner went back to doing custom hardware designs. He's very good at what he does, has designed imaging systems for the telescopes of major observatories down to small surveillance systems, and he's nearing retirement. He may be able to do what you need for a reasonable enough price. I also would never expect him to rip off your idea, though I would of course make sure to have an NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement) and the whole nine (legal-wise) yards in place. The website is http://appliedi.com/
I hope that helps.
Hey bro!! If you need more details on how to go about it ..... Please think as a business man.... Go and get you Idea to be patent first..... Everyone in this world invent and creating something every day.... Dont let your idea to be taken by someone before you patent. If you need more details on how to go about it feel free to contact me via email. Thank you.
I know a physicist in a major US university whose dept. needed a custom board made. They contracted with a Chinese company. Long (expensive) story short: quality control was so bad, they took it in house. Just one data point, but the lesson I took from that was if you're a small company or just a few people, Chinese fab (is there any other?) may be a crap shoot. I would have told you that a the Chinese factory would have been excited by the order and done what it took to make things go right. My advice: have a bushy strategic tree that allows for survival if the hardware doesn't work. If that's not part of your game plan, rewrite your game plan.
Are you lawyer? If not, stop offering legal advice. I'm not a lawyer either, so I'll just paraphrase what my lawyer told me two weeks ago: "Sure, an NDA is a good step - if it can be enforced." If you are a lawyer, please cite case law, etc., that backs up this "magic NDA" view.
An NDA is not a magic shield that will protect your ideas. At best, it is one tool among many. At worst, it is fool's security blanket.
Another tool is the provisional patent.
And another is meticulous documentation - document every meeting, every email, etc. I make some people sign NDAs - for others, I rely on the fact that I can point to a body of evidence - correspondence, journals, etc. - that show that the ideas were mine. It depends on the person, the situation, the likelihood they will sign - if you ask someone for advice, why would they sign an NDA? What, exactly, do they get out of it?
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