Copyright Lobby Targets "Pirate Bay For Books"

An anonymous reader writes "TTVK, a Finnish national copyright lobby, is threatening a book rental service called Bookabooka for allegedly running the 'Pirate Bay for Books.' Bookabooka however does not offer a torrent tracker service, nor does it enable a user in any way to download eBooks; it simply provides a place for book owners to rent textbooks to each other via the traditional mail service. It is mandatory that all textbooks must be originals. The service is used by a lot of School and University students, and it does not handle the shipping or returns of the textbooks. Nevertheless, the Finnish book publishers' association (Suomen Kustannusyhdistys) is convinced the service is breaching the copyright laws and threatening their business. TTVK has given Bookabooka until Friday to cease operations or face a lawsuit. Bookabooka's founders have vowed to keep the service online and ignore the threat."

Comments

Well.

[Anonymous Coward]

Good. Fucking pirates.

Re:Well.

[MindKata]

"pirates"

I know you are joking about pirates, but this "pirates" meme is pure PR. This legal move isn't about pirates or copyright or even about Pirate Bay. This is companies (using the smoke screen of the national copyright lobby) as a means to game the legal system into preventing people from using a business model that reduces their income. Using the name Pirate Bay is simply an attempt to use it for PR purposes to imply the business model of sharing is wrong. Book companies want to sell books and prevent people from sharing books.

Re:Well.

[Anonymous Coward]

By your logic, then Blockbuster and Netflix are the Pirate Bay's of America. ...QUICK! They've made millions on the backs of the original content creators! Horrible pirates sharing others' creations work for pennies when they should all have to buy their own (even though the movie/book/game only will entertain them for 2/10/20 hours or so). Oh yeah, and when you loaned Jimmy your comic book back in 4th grade for a quarter, yeah, we're gonna have to ask you actually pay for his full copy because you helped him pirate it.

   

Re:Well.

[mea37]

First the seize ships off the coast of Somalia, and then it's on to giving people who want books the names of other people who have them...

Re:Well.

[onionlee]

exactly. and furthermore, even if bookabooka wins, theyll probably be crippled by the staggering legal fees and thus close down.

Re:Well.

[wilkinc]

First the seize ships off the coast of Somalia, and then it's on to giving people who want books the names of other people who have them...

You forgot:

3) ???
4) Profit!

Re:Well.

[Runaway1956]

(sarcasem) I'll be happy when they focus on the Taxi companies. Damned pirates, if they weren't buying a few cars and then renting them to deadbeat consumers, those deadbeats would have to BUY A CAR!! If all consumers had to own their own car, GM would be healthy!! This piracy is the root of the world's economic ills, I tell you!! (/sarcasm)

Seriously, there goes the right of first purchase.

Re:Well.

[raynet]

If they win, the TTKV most likely will need to pay for bookabooka's legal expenses.

Re:Well.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not the same as Blockbuster or Netflix. Blockbuster and Netflix do not pay the same $15-$20 per DVD that you and I pay. They pay a premium, several times the MSRP for the consumer DVD. With this, they get the rights to rent those DVDs to other people. If they were giving the DVDs, then it would be simple transfer of ownership, but they are deriving income from renting something they own. Bookabooka is not Netflix or blockbuster, what they do is basically turn everyone with a textbook into Netflix or blockbuster, acting as a agent, but the individuals acuatlly do the renting. They are, however, renting the consumer books they have purchased. This is NOT legal in the same way it is not legal for you to buy all the latest Hollywoood blockbusters as soon as they come out and open up your own rental shop in your living room. You would need to purchase the rental rights for those DVDs by purchasing a different DVD. People who want to give their book away are free to do so, people who want to rent their old books need to purchase the copy of the book that comes with re-rental rights.

Re:Well.

[b4dc0d3r]

You seem to be a Finn based on your other comments - I would just like to clarify. Normally I'd say "like hell they would". But this would likely be tried in Finland, and so I assume your comment means "loser pays" is common in the legal system there?

On principle, US law has avoided that due to it being a potentially great imbalance. If I defend myself against the RIAA hoardes and loser pays, a technicality ruling could mean I have to pay millions in legal fees to RIAA laywers, while my defense is going to be a single affordable lawyer. My single guy against a hoarde of legal eagles makes it likely they can get out on a technicality my guy never saw coming. Losing the case means I am also bankrupt.

So "loser pays" can have the effect of making the little guy roll over for anything but the surest of victories.

Re:Well.

[Just because I'm an]

It is my understanding that in many of the "loser pays" jurisdictions it applies only if the party bringing the suit loses. So in your example you'd be fine... well not fine, more like screwed, but at least safe from having to front up the money for the vampiric hordes used to convict you of some heinous act like downloading a copy of Santa Clause 2.

It's still not a perfect system, but better than you describe.

Re:Well.

[raynet]

In Finland the loser usually has to pay the legal expenses of the winner, doesn't matter who brought up the case. But even if you win, you cannot just send the bill from your 200 lawyers to the loser as it is the judge who decides what is the reasonable amount of legal expenses to be paid. Usually it is thousands, maybe tens of thousands of euros, but not more.

It does have somewhat chilling effect, but also is very effective to prevent frivolous cases. And many people have home insurance that also pays some of the legal expenses.

And to protect the little guy, we have things like Consumer Protection Agency, who takes the company to court on your behalf if it thinks there is a reason to make them comply with the law.

Re:Well.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the loser in a legal dispute pays the legal expenses of the winner. The thing is, you simply can't hire 1000 eur / hour- charging lawyers and simply present a six-figure bill afterwards. The expenses deemed to the loser are lowered to a reasonable amount (thousands, not tens or hundreds of thousands) by the court regardless of the original sum.

The same thing goes with damages, our system does not recognize punitive damages, the sum must be proportional to the damage done, and no more.

IANAL

Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[CRCulver]

Speaking as a student at the University of Helsinki, nearly all textbooks I need are offered by one of the libraries, who keeps a number of copies of each textbook around so that students can take them out, do the course, and then return them at the end of the semester. Until I read this, I never imagined that university students in this country ever have a hard time getting access to textbooks and would need some kind of outside service like that.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Sockatume]

Unfortunately it varies for entirely predictable reasons. At my UK university, while there are plenty of postgraduate or specialist texts compared to demand, there are usually at most three copies of anything, which is insufficient for undergraduate classes in the hundreds. Therefore year after year there's a stack of new editions of the basic texts in the book shop which are eagerly snapped up. I imagine the publishers wouldn't be happy if the university bought 200 of the current edition every five years.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[fork_daemon]

In My College in the UK, the Computer section in the Library was very very very small as compared to any other courses and the books which are commonly visible in a Computer Scince section like Computer Networks by A. Tannenbaum were missing. All I could see were "For Dummies" Series or other crap teaching Office Software.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[ionix5891]

Erm

no one uses this site

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/bookabooka.fi

this is a non story

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll have to disagree with you. The availability of books depends significantly on your major. The situation which you describe can be true with books which are used on courses with a few (20) students. I'll dare to say that you are in the tiny minority of university students in Finland, who can find _nearly all_ or even a significant amount of their textbooks in libraries.

Unfortunately all books in first-year studies in, for example engineering, are quite scarce in libraries. Three examples from my own university:

University physics by Young & Freedman: 9 copies, approx 100 students, price ~80e
Calculus by Robert A. Adams: 8 copies, approx 50 students, price 77e
Microelectronic circuits by Sedra & Smith: 10 copies, approx 50 students, price ~60e

So, I have no problems imagining that such a service would be needed.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[linzeal]

Who goes to the library anymore. I download 80% of the textbooks I need from Piratebay. Saves me 1000's a year.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[TheP4st]

Erm

no one uses this site

Just wait for the Streisand effect to kick in. ;-)

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[cjfs]

Speaking as a student at the University of Helsinki, nearly all textbooks I need are offered by one of the libraries,

I don't understand how this works. If this was the case, what incentive would the professor have to require four of his books and never use them in the course?

Very strange system you guys have there.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[marsu_k]

Or maybe Finns on average are smart enough not to install Alexa Toolbar? Anyway, the service is quite new, and before this incident relatively unknown. At least I had never heard of it until this incident, and same applies to several people who discussed this on Helsingin Sanomat website (many of which noted they shall be using the service as text book prices are not reasonable for majority of students).

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Anonymous Coward]

Undergrad courses might have hundreds of participants - there's not enough copies for everyone. Fortunately, at Helsinki University of Technology most courses offer material of their own that is substantial enough to complete the exercises and the exams.

Also, there is a very functional newsgroup system which people use to trade books. No need to give money to Bookabooka for the same service.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[petermgreen]

I don't understand how this works. If this was the case, what incentive would the professor have to require four of his books and never use them in the course?
I see americans on /. talk about this as if it's a normal thing. Maybe it is in the USA, that doesn't mean it is everywhere.

At least on my course ( electronic systems engineering at manchester in the uk ) with a combination of good handouts and a reasonable library there is little need to purchase books. I think i've purchased one textbook so far on my course (and i've nearly finished said course)

The one time i've noticed a lecturer putting one of his own books on the "reccomended books" list he made sure there were plenty of copy of copies in the library, printed a large chunk of the content for us free in the form of a handout and basically explicitly advised us not to buy it.

Very strange system you guys have there.
I have to say I think the american system which drives students into insane ammounts of debt both directly with fees and with very high other expenses is pretty strange/fucked up.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Joutsa]

Anyway, the service is quite new, and before this incident relatively unknown. At least I had never heard of it until this incident, and same applies to several people who discussed this on Helsingin Sanomat website (many of which noted they shall be using the service as text book prices are not reasonable for majority of students).

Interesting. At my university (TKK) used textbooks have been traded on the local news server at least since early 1990s. My first reaction was "Why would anybody pay to use a service that already has a better free alternative?". I guess the news are not part of internet.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[mrphoton]

Thank you Finish copyright police TTVK or who every you are. I had never heard of this service before. It sounds great and now I might just use it!

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[oodaloop]

I hope these book publishers never find out about these things called "libraries", where in the US they outnumber even McDonalds. They're the original Pirate Bay, dens of malicious copyright infringers, intent on taking money away from the poor little book publishers.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[marsu_k]

Oh naturally the market for used textbooks has existed for ages - most public bulletin boards (of the physical kind) in any university/polytechnic are filled with such announcements. But this is the first renting service I'm aware of. And many commentators said they will try the service because they were so infuriated with the actions of TTVK.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well that might be at YOUR university, but at mine in Huddersfield, UK the lecturers advertise their books all the time. Ken Lunn for example went to great lengths to make sure we bought his books on UML.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[whereareweheadedto]

You don't have to go far to encounter such stupidity. Slovenia, for example. A friend of mine, who studied law, was required to buy books in amount of 400 and up. Every school year or semester. That's crazy, but many schools require students to buy textbooks. Usually written by the same professors who later require them. I went to Computer and ELectronics college and we also had to buy all the books. THe only good thng about this system is you can ask the author of the book in person, if there 's something in it, that you don't understand :/

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Anonymous Coward]

u people pay a lot for textbooks

here, i can get a years worth of textbooks for less than Rs 2000 and return them at half the price at the end of the year for half the price

and that is if i buy all new books

if like most of us you buy the second hand books you can do the entire year by spending only Rs 500-600 on textbooks

infact this system has been going on for so long, many of the books in circulation are the 1980's editions which cost a paltry Rs 30-40 to buy and are returned for 1/2 the price
on the other hand even the new editions of these books rarely cost more than Rs 200

(Rs40=1USD approx)
PS: i am talking about a BE in comp sc course

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[ionix5891]

it doesnt even register on google either

http://trends.google.com/websites?q=bookabooka.fi

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[rolfwind]

Speaking as a student at the University of Helsinki, nearly all textbooks I need are offered by one of the libraries, who keeps a number of copies of each textbook around so that students can take them out, do the course, and then return them at the end of the semester. Until I read this, I never imagined that university students in this country ever have a hard time getting access to textbooks and would need some kind of outside service like that.

I went to a community college for some outside classes one summer (foreign language, an extra math course, a purely self-indulgent history course since the Prof was interesting). As the name implies, Community Colleges tend to be the cheapest option, the most friendly to the not-so-rich, although they can be pretty good in quality depending on the affluence of the county they are in. They had a humongous library, must have cost millions, however, they never had the books for the courses - which could be some grand conspiracy or just due to the number of courses they offered. They told us that the professor/teacher had to donate them. On those professor's salaries (they got paid less than highschool teachers) that wasn't likely. Sometimes they had the book, but it was editions out of date - you could likely learn the same material from them but were out of luck if the professor was a stickler for work problems (as that was switched around). You also couldn't sign them out no matter what. The math book, sold by the Barnes & Noble run college store, cost $180 new or $150 used if you were lucky.

About the only relief College Students got was half.com and when Amazon.com's used book offerings came online earlier in the decade. That was win/win since college bookstores made it a point of pride to give you nearly nothing to "sell" the book back to them. The Pirate Bay has books sometimes, but often not what one needs.

I often wish for a netflix of books, a digital online library that one can subscribe to, "sign out" any books for a fee if necessary besides membership. I wonder, if the library has a physical copy, if that would be legal. Otherwise media mail is nice and cheap in this country. Google books is nice but often censored.

I would encourage people to contribute here:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/alexa.com

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Anonymous Coward]

Having been an american student and still dealing with the insane debt, I have to disagree that our system has problems. However, it is human nature to treasure those things that are hardest to obtain either by price or by work. In the good USA private universities, both of these factors add to the struggle of obtaining the degree and make the student appreciate their education and add to the sense of achievement. If you take two students, one who has to pay a majority of the cost themselves and the other who's parents take care of all their expenses, the student who has to pay will take things more seriously, at least in the USA. I have observed this repeatedly.
Now I admit that the insane amounts of debt has gone over board but mostly because of the idea of entitlement that everyone deserves to go to college. And before you call me a conservative, I don't think it should be determined by available money but by ability.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Is0m0rph]

That's much different then the US where they charge $100+ for a textbook that you should be able to sell back to the university bookstore at the end of the semester but the scamming publishers revise the book each year making it so you can't sell it back because you have an outdated revision. Then the next student has to pay $100+ for the new revision the next semester.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Anonymous Coward]

I see americans on /. talk about this as if it's a normal thing. Maybe it is in the USA, that doesn't mean it is everywhere.

It is, sadly. One of the reasons I don't miss undergrad.

I have to say I think the American system which drives students into insane amounts of debt both directly with fees and with very high other expenses is pretty strange/fucked up.

It's both, but it's also all we've got over here.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Narpak]

In fact this is actually a fiendishly clever ploy to massively increase traffic to the site. Oh yes...

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um yeah, alexa is worthless data gathered from only spyware infections of the alexa toolbar.

Come back with REAL data.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right, they should sue the library too! Now THERES a buncha pirates!

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[perryizgr8]

i've never been able to read from a computer screen. it just does not feel comfortable. and if i print out a whole book it will cost me more than the actual market price of the book.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[perryizgr8]

yeah and libraries here also have lots of dvds too. mostly 2-3 year old movies but still quite useful.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Lumpy]

it is human nature to treasure those things that are hardest to obtain either by price or by work.

By work? yes. by price? that's funny.

something hard to attain by price is folly, and are only treasured by the shallowest of humanity.

Those that work HARD are always more celebrated and respected. It's why a man that builds his own hotrod is far, FAR, more respected than the rich guy that bought his.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[msormune]

That's because you're in the capital city. Try finding those books in University of Kuopio (where I reside), for example. Yeah, I know the funding should be equal as per student. It's not.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say *woosh*, but your comment was decently well written and accurate enough that it didn't really matter.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Kamokazi]

Hey, don't forget those theiving bastards also got into the Video and Music business too (even if their selection sometimes sucks). Clearly, since it is free, it must be illegal.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[perryizgr8]

yes but you never get the original versions here. only the low price editions with crappy paper and black and white printing. i once got an original us version (very expensive) of a book i already had in lpe. and it was so much better to read. but if i had to pay that much for every book, i would have to find a full time job just to sustain my book buying expenses.
what i've realized is that the best way to get books is to ask a senior for his old ones. you get good advice regarding which book is good and you get the book for free :)

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[gerglion]

If they are never used in the course, why buy them in the first place? I usually refrain from purchasing any textbooks until the ... second week or so once I know what I actually need. Some courses actually require a textbook (in class work, homework) and others don't really need it at all. The number of computer science books I have bought in the last 3 years is fairly small compared to the number of computer science classes I've taken.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Firethorn]

I see americans on /. talk about this as if it's a normal thing. Maybe it is in the USA, that doesn't mean it is everywhere.

Like a lot of things in the USA, we're actually very fragmented. Remember, we don't have a national school system, we have 50 state level systems.

Some universities this practice is prevalent, in others it's actually forbidden. I remember one university that would allow a professor to teach from his own book - but such book had to be sold to the students at printing cost.

printed a large chunk of the content for us free in the form of a handout

Time for me to get a bit technical. Assuming said book had enough copies for economies of scale to take effect(several thousand copies IIRC), it's actually substantially cheaper to print the book than to 'copy' it using a laser printer/copier. You can get better results as well.

I have to say I think the american system which drives students into insane ammounts of debt both directly with fees and with very high other expenses is pretty strange/fucked up.

I have a theory that easy availability of credit/assistance has actually skewed the cost of a degree higher, much like the housing market.

Easy availability of credit means that individuals that wouldn't have gone go, and those that would have gone to a cheaper school go to an expensive one instead.

As a result, many universities haven't had to control their spending in quite a long time, despite all the moaning about not wanting to raise tuition. They've almost forgotten how to economize. To save money.

Restrict credit such that students don't actually HAVE the money to go to their college, and I'm willing to bet that the college would find a lot of ways to save money and reduce their expenses.

It's my personal philosophy that students DO need to pay for most of their degree; it's a good way to make sure they value it.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[AlHunt]

>I have to say I think the american system which drives students into
>insane ammounts of debt both directly with fees and with very high
> other expenses is pretty strange/fucked up.

My kingdom for a mod point. With 32 million Americans on food stamps (roughly the population of Canada) you'd think the American government would be prioritizing education, training and programs designed to raise the socioeconomic status of it's citizens instead of piddling away money that just gets diverted to executive bonuses.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Anonymous Coward]

woosh

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Steauengeglase]

As someone who went to college in America, I'll have to say that I find your communist heaven appealing. Textbooks in the library, wow that sounds like something that would get someone expelled in the good old USA.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[jedidiah]

> Easy availability of credit means that individuals that wouldn't have gone go, and
> those that would have gone to a cheaper school go to an expensive one instead.

This isn't really a factor.

In some states, the state universities are allowed to increase their
tuition rates by a certain state mandated maxiumum every year. It is
a limit and of course they don't have to "use" all of it but they do.
This cap on tuition increases is signficantly greater than inflation.
Due to compounding, these percentage increases build up consderably
over time. This effect has been building up over decades.

It occurs pretty much at a steady rate regardless of whether or not
there is some sort of bubble or recession going on.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking as a student at the University of Helsinki, nearly all textbooks I need are offered by one of the libraries, who keeps a number of copies of each textbook around so that students can take them out, do the course, and then return them at the end of the semester. Until I read this, I never imagined that university students in this country ever have a hard time getting access to textbooks and would need some kind of outside service like that.

This is unfortunately not the truth for polytechnics in Finland. There are usually 1-2 copies of the textbook in library. Bookabooka was actually made by students of one of the Helsinki polytechnics - Helia.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[spitzig]

There were usually a few books at the library at the last school I went to. But, they weren't used because of lack of availability to buy books. They were largely used by students to avoid BUYING the books. There were only a few, if any. So, students often raced to check out the book right after class.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Burkin]

no one who uses this site uses the alexa spyware tool

Fix'd for accuracy.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Ash Vince]

At my university the problem was that students would take the book out at the start of the year, then renew it continually until someone else put in a request. At that point they would simply stop renewing it then pay the fine when they returned it at the end of the year. This was usually cheaper than buying the book in question.

Most universities do not have enough money to but one copy of each text book for every student on a particular course in a single year. Certainly not when it comes to text books for courses like law when the text books themselves are updated at least every other year.

My university also had a book shop on campus that had a special relationship with the Uni. This meant your course texts were always in stock at a cheaper rate but the library always lacked a decent copy for at least a year after a book was updated.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Philip_the_physicist]

holy shit, man. How can it cost more than $0.10 per page (about the break-even point fora 1000pp textbook. At my uni, that is the standard price for single sided, and there are plenty of free printers as well. Either your books are more reasonably priced, or our printing is insanely expensive (assuming, of cours, that you do not need colour).

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[cbreaker]

Well, as of now it seems like a pretty localized site, so it doesn't surprise me that it doesn't fit in the top 100,000.

I think the site is a good idea. And, to invoke Copyright on this is unbelievable. There's no COPYING being done. When I give you my book, I no longer have that book.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[MasterOfMagic]

Thank you for restoring my faith in humanity. I had assumed that there were more McDonald's in the world than libraries in the US. Around my apartment, there are no fewer than 4 McDonald's within walking distance, but only one branch library.

I had begun to think that maybe Americans liked cheap, disgusting food more than they liked reading.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[russotto]

My kingdom for a mod point. With 32 million Americans on food stamps (roughly the population of Canada) you'd think the American government would be prioritizing education, training and programs designed to raise the socioeconomic status of it's citizens instead of piddling away money that just gets diverted to executive bonuses.

<cynical> Wouldn't work. We'd just have trained people with BS and MS degrees on food stamps. </cynical>

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[cdrudge]

Depending on how you want to include in counting the number of libraries, there may be about the same number as McDonalds. If you only consider public and academic (college/university) libraries, they are about equal. However this does exclude nearly 100k school libraries, special libraries (private, medical, law, corporate), or government/military libraries. Source

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Anonymous Coward]

it is human nature to treasure those things that are hardest to obtain either by price or by work.

By work? yes. by price? that's funny.

something hard to attain by price is folly, and are only treasured by the shallowest of humanity.

Damn PC fanboy, always picking on us Mac Fans.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[bhagwad]

But in general, his principal is right. There's an article about how mortgages should be banned that I wrote that discusses just this.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Hatta]

Therefore year after year there's a stack of new editions of the basic texts in the book shop which are eagerly snapped up

Don't you have used book stores in the UK?

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Jeremy Erwin]

Did you try using the catalog?

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[minorproblem]

Its funny because i have all of those books sitting in my bookshelf right now collecting dust, i was lucky enough to have a book scholarship through all of my university so i have quite a good library, but the idea of renting out some of the books would be kinda cool...

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[TooMuchToDo]

Funny story. I was at the library the other day looking for a very specific electronics book and passed a teen with a laptop, and external hard drive, and a stack of DVDs. As I walked past I glanced and saw him him running DVD Decryptor while he surfed the web. I said "Don't fill that drive all in one place chief." He just laughed as I kept walking.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[TooMuchToDo]

I can get books electronically. I have yet to be able to do the same with food products. =)

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[TooMuchToDo]

It's why a man that builds his own hotrod is far, FAR, more respected than the rich guy that bought his.

Although I would argue that each gets laid about the same, but for different reasons (and by different types of women).

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Jeremy Erwin]

One thousand single sided pages. My, my, that must be fun to lug around.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[operagost]

Duplexing laser printers are actually quite cheap now. A few of the entry-level ones even have a driver that emulates duplexing by printing the odd pages first, then prompting you to reload the stack and print the even pages.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Dan541]

Once it becomes illegal to borrow books from the library you will need services such as Bookabooka

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[BoneFlower]

"I don't understand how this works. If this was the case, what incentive would the professor have to require four of his books and never use them in the course?"

Spanish department at my school requires the textbook and a workbook. Recommends an audio CD set that costs close to 70USD.

Not only will the school library copy the CDs for you if you provide blanks, but all of the material from the CD set is available at the publishers website for free. Don't even need to register or provide a code from the book!

So why do they bother recommending this CD set?

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Alinabi]

It's my personal philosophy that students DO need to pay for most of their degree

and you would end up with an army of lawyers and doctors, as those are the only professions that allow someone to pay for their degrees.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[stinerman]

That's true of any loan. Loans drive up the cost of any item for the reasons you put forth in your argument. However, the cure is worse than the disease here. Tell any business that they no longer have any access to credit and watch a shockingly large amount of them go kaput.

The best way to be "recession proof" is requiring significant down payments on loans. This will decrease the cost of the collateral, but make it harder for people to get the loan. It's a sliding scale from 100% down to 0% down (and perhaps negative amounts down as we saw in CA and FL).

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[anonymousbob22]

Duplexing laser printers are actually quite cheap now. A few of the entry-level ones even have a driver that emulates duplexing by printing the odd pages first, then prompting you to reload the stack and print the even pages.

Yeah, but it still looks like shit compared to the actual textbook. If you factor in binding it, etc, they have you by a large margin due to economies of scale.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[orclevegam]

Aside from the fact that the GP was joking, this sort of thing has been going on in American schools (both public grade schools, and state universities) for a very long time. Richard Feynman writes about it in his book from when he (briefly) served on one of the state school boards as an expert in helping pick out the math and science books. What he found out was that the selection process is based more or less entirely on what the sales reps tell school board. Blatant bribery occurs, and most of the board members never even open the books up, just look at the covers and read the sales pitch provided by the publisher.

From what I understand there's really two forces at work here. The first, is deals publishers make with school to provide kickbacks to the schools (in addition to the cut the school bookstores make). The second is federal regulations that require schools to make a certain percentage of their revenue from non-scholarship sources. That second probably needs a bit of explaining, the idea behind it is that they don't want what are essentially welfare schools that are so expensive the only way anyone goes to them is because the government (or some charity organization) is footing the bill for the student. The problem is, it's not worded that way so what ends up happening is the schools instead require the most expensive books they can get with the largest publisher kickbacks and rotate them out every year so students are constantly having to buy new expensive books which contributes directly to the schools non-scholarship income, rather than the intended behavior of reducing tuition to attract more students (or possibly conducting more privately funded research programs).

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[oodaloop]

Neither are evenly distributed. In Lancaster, PA, my hometown, there are only 2 McDonalds and numerous libraries and colleges, not to mention art galleries, museums, an opera house, etc. We don't all fit the stereotype.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Sockatume]

Unfortunately we're an out-of-town campus with a big on-campus population, and no used book shop. We need a bigger bulletin board.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Jane_Dozey]

Ditto for Southampton University. None of my lecturers ever tried to make me buy their books and all of them provided full lecture notes.

The only times they required us to read parts of specific books they would either photocopy the pages or make sure that the book was available in the library so we could go and find it.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[TheLink]

Yeah. I did EE in UMIST back when there was a UMIST, and I only bought two books due to the course - one was "The Art of Electronics" and the other was "Oh! Pascal!".

Everything else was from handouts and course notes. I did OK. Not fantastic, but good enough I guess.

WRT to fees, I was an international student, and the fees are a lot higher for us than they are for the locals. UMIST won the Queen's Award for Export Achievement a few times :).

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[sixtuslab]

Thank you Finish copyright police TTVK or who every you are. I had never heard of this service before. It sounds great and now I might just use it!

As a finnish citizen I can only say "Right on!", this seems like the story where Monsanto denies the farmer the right to collect seeds from the harvest to sew the land again, instead the farmer must buy a new "license" (new batch of seeds).

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand how this works. If this was the case, what incentive would the professor have to require four of his books and never use them in the course?

1. Write book
2. Require book as part of course
3. Profit

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[JoelisHere]

But this is the first renting service I'm aware of.

I remember seeing quite a few adds for textbook renting services in the last few years. (http://www.google.com/search?q=rent+textbooks) Chegg.com is the first one that comes to mind. This one seems to be different in that it allows users to rent from each other rather than from the service itself.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Profane MuthaFucka]

I heard about the libraries in Finland from Fox News. They said it was SOCIALISM. They said that everyone in Finland is imprisoned in a library. They can't leave the library without permission because that's what Fox News says that SOCIALISM does.

No wonder Linus left Finland. You can't be free in a Finnish library.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[dogeatery]

In the US, every college town has several such businesses offering similar services

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[raynet]

The finnish word for copyright is "tekijänoikeus" which literally means "author's rights" and under that title the law can easily be broader than just under "copyright".

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[emeiji]

When I was in school, that Sedra & Smith text cost me some $120 CAD from my campus bookstore. However there were a bunch of enterprising students who'd sell softcover versions of that same textbook that they'd buy in Hong Kong for about $20.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Attila Dimedici]

The real problem is that colleges and universities in the U.S. have learned that any sufficiently motivated student can find the money to pay for a college education, therefore there is no need to compete on price. Additionally, they have learned that being more expensive is a competitive advantage; more expensive institutions are generally viewed as better than less expensive institutions. Finally, we are constantly bombarded with the idea that if you go to college you will have a higher income than if you don't.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[DragonWriter]

Like a lot of things in the USA, we're actually very fragmented. Remember, we don't have a national school system, we have 50 state level systems.

More than that in the case of higher ed, actually; as each private institution is its own unique institution, and some states have multiple, separately governed public systems (California has a Community College system, the California State University system, and the University of California system.)

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Firethorn]

Loans drive up the cost of any item for the reasons you put forth in your argument.

Especially for something like a college education, the market isn't actually constrained, more college courses can be 'constructed' and put on the market, especially as the price increases. The trick is to find a sweet spot where we have enough colleges/courses but the prices isn't too high.

That's why I specified 'easy' loans - IE credit is TOO easy to get, such that people find it easy to get over their heads with it. Same with businesses, credit is good for industry, but too much credit can lead to wasteful spending, and companies operating in dangerous territory as they operate completely off of loans, not having any actual capital of their own.

The best way to be "recession proof" is requiring significant down payments on loans. This will decrease the cost of the collateral, but make it harder for people to get the loan. It's a sliding scale from 100% down to 0% down (and perhaps negative amounts down as we saw in CA and FL).

How do you require a down payment on a college education loan? There's no physical object that the lender can confiscate to make himself whole if the borrower doesn't pay back.

Sure, you can make students pay a percentage of their class with unborrowed money, but that often doesn't work well either.

I'm not worrying about recession profing loans, at least not educational ones. What I'm looking at is if we make getting a loan more difficult, or decrease the amount somebody can get, the colleges would end up responding by dropping costs - or get fewer students.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Firethorn]

In some states, the state universities are allowed to increase their
tuition rates by a certain state mandated maxiumum every year. This effect has been building up over decades.

I know some universities are restricted on how much they increase tuition. My point is that even if they were allowed to raise tuition in an unlimited fashion, if students can't get the money to go, they can't go.

If the allowable amounts of student aid/loans hadn't increased ahead of inflation along with the increases in tuition, the more expensive colleges and universities would have found themselves having to restrain

A university can charge $100k for their education if they want, but if the students can only raise $40k, they can't go to that university, even if they're willing to pay the $100k, because they can't get the cash.

Universities need that cap on tuition expenses because they tend to expand uncontrollably - many haven't constrained their spending otherwise.

My arguement would be that even if you capped them at BELOW inflation spending for quite a few years, they'd find ways to adapt and keep teaching at the lower funding levels, and students would be graduating with substantially less debt.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Gilmoure]

My hotrod ('70 Impala Sport Coup/454 .30 over/3.73 Posi) ate it's tranny. For third time in 2 years. Sigh.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Firethorn]

Especially today, it often takes Doctors longer to pay back their loans than others, and it's still a difficult course.

Too many lawyers and their wages would drop, making them less able to pay back any loans.

There's plenty of career fields other than those two where you can make back your education expenses and more.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[AlHunt]

<cynical> Wouldn't work. We'd just have trained people with BS and MS degrees on food stamps. </cynical>

Want to know something funny? We pitched a plan to a US Senators office for implementing a proven entrepreneurship program (previously developed for a federal program, by the way), free to clients. All we needed was help with a facility. The response was "I'm just not sure training would do any good". On the other hand, we decided not to pursue an available grant of $75,000 last year to go out and teach the elderly how to apply for food stamps.

So, we can get money to help get people ON the dole, but not a dime to get them OFF the dole.

It's hard not to share your cynicism

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[JAlexoi]

Maybe they are sharing the books that are rare? Have you thought about that? Not every library can be the LoC.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Alinabi]

That process would be SLOW and would result in several wasted generations of students.

I am very curious to know what are those other lucrative careers you speak of, which would allow one to pay off their student loans within a reasonable time frame (~5 years).

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Anonymous Coward]

So where does the kid who worked like a dog all year to earn the money to buy his hotrod fall in your scale of things?

You're assuming that money comes without hard work attached to it. Let us now speak of shallow humanity...

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[thejynxed]

Ahh, you are from my old neck of the woods then eh? I bounced around for years from York -> Harrisburg -> Lancaster -> Manheim -> Hershey -> Camp Hill -> Elizabethtown -> Lebanon. Never cared to set foot into Reading, Lititz, Annville, or Ephrata though.

Indeed, there ARE more libraries in that area than there are McDonald's. And that is saying something, considering the ungodly amount of strip malls in that entire area.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Firethorn]

Even teachers can make enough money to pay for college; assuming that you don't go to one of the most expensive schools, take enough of a courseload you don't linger there and so on.

Plenty of people get degrees today with the assistance of loans. If it was cheaper, well, so much the better.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you use a jig like the one one of the clubs I am a member of has, you can clamp the pages and drill them to fit in a binder. This is a wooden box with a pair of G-clamps holding down a lid inside the box, which holds the pages tightly to stop them tearing. Combined with free duplex printing, this makes pirating textbooks a quick and cheap job. For under $5 all up, a poor print quality seems less of a worry.

posted anonymously because my user name is easily recognised by certain of the university authorities, and the club in question doesn't need any more investigations into illegal activities.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[williamhb]

something hard to attain by price is folly, and are only treasured by the shallowest of humanity. Those that work HARD are always more celebrated and respected. It's why a man that builds his own hotrod is far, FAR, more respected than the rich guy that bought his.

And yet the woolly jumper I knitted just doesn't seem to get the Prada-like respect it deserves.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Anonymous Coward]

We do like cheap food more than reading. That's why we go to fast-food everyday and library at most once per month.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[mehrotra.akash]

arent the low price editions available in US ?? i guess that $10-20/semester would not be much for them..

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[perryizgr8]

well i wouldn't know what the situation is in us. because i live in india.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[mehrotra.akash]

same here which college??

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[perryizgr8]

man i'm not in college. just gave my 12th boards and iit-jee. now studying for aieee. in delhi. you?

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[mehrotra.akash]

am at MIT manipal 1st yr BE CSE good luck for ur aieee

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[idontgno]

It's kinda unnerving. I've noticed that in the U.S., most of the "smart money" is on buying people fish, rather than teaching them to fish. It doesn't make any obvious sense, if you try to make rational assumptions about intentions and goals. But if you try to make other assumptions about intentions and goals.... well, paranoia and conspiracy theories bloom rampant in that direction.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Alinabi]

Plenty of people get degrees today with the assistance of loans.

Yes, I know. My wife is one of them. She'll be 45 before she'll be done paying them off.

Re:Who needs to hunt down textbooks in Finland?

[Firethorn]

And if college ed was cheaper, she wouldn't be looking at having the loans paid off when your kids are going to college...

Unfortuantly, subsidizing loans/schools isn't the answer, because expenses will rise to payments. In my experience, there's a LOT many schools can do to more efficienty and economically provide educations.

Sue me man

[Anonymous Coward]

The Finnish book publishers' association (Suomen Kustannusyhdistys) the finnish translation is like "sue me man"

Re:Sue me man

[godfra]

Suomen means "finnish".

Re:Sue me man

[Hognoxious]

No shit, Sherlock?

Threatening a book renal service?

[Sockatume]

Talk about cruel and unusual punishment.

Re:Threatening a book renal service?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can see a new challenge for goatse man

Re:Threatening a book renal service?

[Sockatume]

Why am I getting moderated informative/insightful? Is this "random karma day"? :/

Re:Threatening a book renal service?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. I wanted "Funny" but misclicked.

Re:Threatening a book renal service?

[Just Some Guy]

Who'd want to piss off a library?

Re:Threatening a book renal service?

[Sockatume]

Thanks anyway!

Don't mess with renal services...

[lxs]

Book renal services are supposed to be very hard on the kidneys.

Re:Don't mess with renal services...

[dgun]

Spell checkers have a downside.

Re:Don't mess with renal services...

[Anonymous Coward]

You whippersnappers have it easy.

All you have to deal with is kidney stones. And you have all these fancy drugs to make it pain-free.
In my day, I passed the entire Encyclopedia Brittanica and all I had was an old piece of leather to bite on.

What!

[Anonymous Coward]

What an awesome service. I'm subscribing.

Government intervention...again.

[reverendbeer]

The Finnish national copyright lobby needs to stay out of my books kidneys, dammit.

Copyright laws redefined

[tangent3]

If I do not get any money, you are in breach of copyright laws.

Re:Copyright laws redefined

[richlv]

maybe such actions will increase popularity of a certain political party ;)

Re:Copyright laws redefined

[Anonymous Coward]

If I do not get any money, you are in breach of copyright laws.

Sadly, at least in Sweden, last fridays court case redefined copyright laws so as long as you know someone who knows someone who knows a person that is able to point to who has a copyrighted work, you too are guilty.

Until the current court verdict is overturned in appeal, sadly this company has a valid copyright complaint in the EU against the book rental site, since they can't claim they don't know the people mailing each other books. :(

Now, I fully do not know if Finland will hold its own copyright laws over and above the EU, in which case the site is probably fine (Or at least governed by the laws the site operators would know about)

Wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

I was about to say that books usually have a "do not rent" clause in the legal jargon on the inside, but I've just flicked through four of my uni textbooks and not one of them said it.

Assuming this is the same for the books being rented out, they're trying to stop a technically-not-illegal service from encouraging people doing something perfectly legal.

Eh?

Re:Wait...

[hummassa]

Books and even DVDs cannot be "do-not-rent" if you BUY them. It's the "first sale doctrine" -- you bought it, it's yours! You can lend, rent and sell them, at your hearts will.

Re:Wait...

[91degrees]

But even if it did, what difference does it make?

You can't make arbitrary demands on a purchaser after the purchase. What if it said "You agree to pay the author a subscription to continue using this book after a year"?

Re:Wait...

[rednuhter]

Books and even DVDs cannot be "do-not-rent" if you BUY them. It's the "first sale doctrine" -- you bought it, it's yours! You can lend, rent and sell them, at your hearts will.
In what country/ies ?
We are talking about Finland here

Re:Wait...

[Keeper Of Keys]

Sounds like cloud computing.

Re:Wait...

[badfish99]

At least in my country, it's common to see "not for rental" stickers on DVDs that you buy. The media companies obtained a special clause in our copyright law that allows them to enforce this.

Books can be loaned out by libraries, because the book publishers haven't enough financial clout to get a similar law passed. And banning libraries, which have been around for many years, would cause an outcry, whereas banning DVD rentals was never noticed by the public, because there were no DVD rentals before the law was passed, because DVDs hadn't been invented.

I think that DVD rental shops have to buy special "rental" versions of DVDs, which have a much higher price than the regular ones.

Re:Wait...

[IBBoard]

Isn't that normally with the caveat of "in any cover other than the one supplied"? I used to think that charity shops were always liable to encounter problems because of the "no renting or reselling" clause until I read it and realised that the legalese included a bit more than that.

Re:Wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up.

Copyright law, and specifically the doctrine of first sale, limits what a publisher can or cannot ask you to do (or refrain from doing) after you bought a book, or in fact any copyrighted work.

What the publishers are trying to do here is institute EULAs for books.

Re:Wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't make arbitrary demands on a purchaser after the purchase.

Of course you can, if those demands are part of the copyright license. Are you suggesting that if I buy a copy of Linux from RedHat I'm free to ignore the GPL, because they can't make arbitrary demands on me after the purchase? If it works for software why can't it work for books? Copyright is copyright.

Re:Wait...

[TheRaven64]

Are you suggesting that if I buy a copy of Linux from RedHat I'm free to ignore the GPL, because they can't make arbitrary demands on me after the purchase?

Yes, you are completely free to ignore the GPL. In fact, you will see this explained clearly in the preamble. If, however, you decide to make copies or derived works of Linux, and then distribute them, then you need a distribution license. You then have two choices, either to individually approach every single one of the Linux developers and offer to pay them for a license, or abide by the GPL.

Re:Wait...

[Philip_the_physicist]

IANAL.

I am given to understand that under European law an EULA contained inside the product (for example, the message on a DVD, or a click-through licence) is considered to be an attempt to modify the contract after it has been completed, and that for them to be legally binding, the end-user would have to sign the EULA before buying the product. Also, ISTM that the burden of proof is on the plaintiff to show that you had agreed to the EULA before you purchased the book.

Re:Wait...

[jsiren]

In Finland authors get compensated for library loans of their books ("kirjastokorvaus"). It's recognized that copies in public libraries account for some lost sales, so a small compensation is paid.

About DVD rentals: It seems that the rental DVD itself is no different from a purchase copy, but it comes with a "permission to rent." Should I happen to lose or destroy the disc, I would be charged something like 45 to 90 e (asked a movie rental place once). I don't know if that's the real price or if the shop has an insurance that pays for the rest - or if it's an incentive not to lose the DVD...

Re:Wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, you are completely free to ignore the GPL.

Don't be disingenuous, I'm not completely free to ignore it if as soon as I engage in the behaviour that the GPL covers I have to abide by it.

Re:Wait...

[Hognoxious]

In the UK nothing needs to be signed, or even said. A contract can be accepted by action.

If you don't like the EULA, you can return it for a full refund. If you keep it, it's assumed you agreed with the contract.

Other countries may well be different.

Re:Wait...

[mrvan]

I'm not completely free to ignore it if as soon as I engage in the behaviour that the GPL covers I have to abide by it.

You're free to ignore the GPL as long as you don't do anything restricted by copyright law, ie distribution, creating a derived work etc.

You can *use* the copy you bought in any way you like, as you have not entered in a contract with the developers. However, to *copy* something you need permission because of copyright law (not because of the GPL per se), and the easiest way to get this permission is to enter in the GPL contract, which gives you this permission in return for certain considerations.

There's an offer, which you are free to accept or refuse, and there are fair considerations for both sides, so this is clean contract law matter.

If copyright is abolished, you have no need whatsoever to enter into the contract, so it is copyright law, not the GPL, that is forcing you to do stuff.

Re:Wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

The finnish version of first sale doctrine permits only reselling (or giving away), not renting or borrowing.

Re:Wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

If(*) the law allows you to do perform the action in question without some special permission, how's that different from saying "By leaving your house tomorrow you will agree to send me money"?

*) that's a big if though, especially with computer software.. there are often strange exceptions in the law for no other apparent purpose but to make software licenses legal.

Re:Wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're free to ignore the GPL as long as you don't do anything restricted by copyright law, ie distribution, creating a derived work etc.

Depending on where you are and the nature of the work rental can be restricted by copyright law. IANAL, but AFAICS in the UK this applies to sound recordings, films and software (I don't think the copyright owner can stop you, but you have to pay). Copyright law doesn't just cover copying and rental, it also covers things like public performance too.

Re:Wait...

[RKThoadan]

IANAL but I believe there is a significant legal difference between a license (the GPL) and a contract. If someone "breaks" the GPL you would sue them for copyright infringement, not breach of contract. Those are two very different sets of laws.

Re:Wait...

[jonaskoelker]

I would be charged something like 45 to 90 e

Let's see, 45 * 2.718281828459045 = 122.3226822..., but what currency?

Re:Wait...

[jsiren]

I would be charged something like 45 to 90 e

Let's see, 45 * 2.718281828459045 = 122.3226822..., but what currency?

€, EUR, or (as a last resort) e. I used the last resort character because the euro sign € has a nasty habit of turning into a question mark, although recent browsers are pretty good at handling it. Had I meant 2.718281828459045 units of the common European currency I'd have written e e, you insensitive clod.

Re:Wait...

[sFurbo]

The libraries pay a lot more for a DVD than it wopuld cost you and me, because they also buy the right to loan it to people. Even if they repurchase a broken DVD, which I think is nuts. They already bought the right to loan the DVD to people, they just don't have the DVD, why can't they buy the DVD for the normal price and then transfer the right to let people loan it?
But that is the old dichtomy between selling a physical object and selling a licens, and, as usual, the content providers gets the best of both worlds...

Re:Wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

The point is that the GPL is the only thing that lets you do something normally forbidden by copyright law - distribution. So "breaking" the GPL means you lose that right and will thus commit copyright violation if you continue distributing. I guess the fact that GPL is worded so that you can "break" it only by distributing in a way not allowed by it (eg. only binaries) confuses matters.

I wonder what would happen if one were to declare one doesn't accept the GPL and then distributes software licensed with GPL, but only in ways allowed by GPL?

Re:Wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

By reading this post, you hereby agree to give me $1000.

/I hope you live in the UK

Re:Wait...

[TheRaven64]

Not at all. The GPL is not an exclusive license. You can, for example, download MySQL and ignore the GPL if you buy a commercial distribution license from the copyright owners (Oracle these days). You can sell or lend your copy of the GPL'd program to anyone else, just as you could with a book. If you create a new book based on one you have just read, or you want to distribute copies of the book, then you need an additional license to do so. If the book is released under the GPL or (more likely) one of the similar Creative Commons licenses, then there is an existing license which you can use as long as you are willing to abide by its conditions.

The GPL does not impose any restrictions on you, it grants a set of limited freedoms. Those freedoms are more limited than those granted by, for example, a BSD license. If the work is not GPL'd, then copyright prevents you from distributing copies or derived works, but it does not prohibit you from using it in any way. Copyright law prevents you from distributing derived works or copies and the GPL provides you with the right to do this as long as you agree to abide by a certain set of conditions.

I personally find the conditions imposed by the GPL to be somewhat stricter than I would like (it is incredibly easy to accidentally violate the GPL, for example, when you give a friend a copy of a GPL'd binary), but you are using an incredibly misleading analogy to attempt to make your point.

Re:Wait...

[mark-t]

In a partial defense of the library's position, I have noticed that quite often the books they lend have much sturdier spines and covers than the exact same book you buy at a bookstore. I'd think it's not at all unlikely that this could account for the increased cost. Presumably, they are sturdier so that they can endure a greater measure of physical handling without being damaged, making it convenient as something to be potentially used by a lot of different people.

Not that the higher pricing makes any sense for music/movies media, but it's tenable with respect to books.

Re:Wait...

[Frederico Camara]

No that's not right.

From the wikipedia: "Copyright gives the creator of an original work exclusive rights for a certain time period in relation to that work..."

The keyword is "exclusive". It means you have no right at all, unless you accept a license agreement, like the GPL. To use it, you have to accept the license.

Some things are restricted by licenses, and others are not. Here are some examples:

When you buy software, you in fact are buying licenses, and paying for services (support, copying). You have to explicitly agree to a license in case of Windows Vista.

When you own a tv set in England, you have to pay a TV license for your home, renewed every year; in many other countries, this license is granted you without you having to pay for it.

I can buy or own a car without having a driver's license. But I can not use it without that license.

Re:Wait...

[Hatta]

From the wikipedia: "Copyright gives the creator of an original work exclusive rights for a certain time period in relation to that work..."

The keyword is "exclusive". It means you have no right at all, unless you accept a license agreement

That's simply wrong. The creator of an original work has certain exclusive rights. Specifically, the exclusive right to make copies, the exclusive right to make derivative works, the exclusive right to hold a public performance of the work, etc. If it's not on this list you are free to do it, no matter what the copyright holder says. (as long as you don't accept a EULA further restricting your rights)

Re:Wait...

[mooingyak]

You wouldn't be able to stop the renting, but if we assume (for the sake of argument) that it is actually illegal to do so, then the book trading service could be shut down for encouraging illegal activity.

Re:Wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

From the wikipedia: "Copyright gives the creator of an original work exclusive rights for a certain time period in relation to that work..."

Wikipedia has oversimplified. The creator has exclusive rights to copies and public performances. Not to use.

When you buy software, you in fact are buying licenses, and paying for services (support, copying). You have to explicitly agree to a license in case of Windows Vista.

Because you need to make a copy (to your hard disk). Buy a movie on a DVD and you don't need to agree to an EULA because you're not copying anything.

When you own a tv set in England, you have to pay a TV license for your home, renewed every year; in many other countries, this license is granted you without you having to pay for it.

You need a licence to receive TV signals. You can own a TV set without paying a licence if you don't use it for receiving broadcasts. The licence is for the TV signals.

I can buy or own a car without having a driver's license. But I can not use it without that license.

Yes you can, on a private road. The licence is for use of public roads.

Re:Wait...

[smallfries]

But it has to be intentional - for you to claim that an EULA was binding over me you would have to show that I read the EULA and *intended* to enter into the contract. The defence that I just skip all EULAs because they are garbage would be valid, although I'm not aware of this being tested in uk law.

Re:Wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

Books and even DVDs cannot be "do-not-rent" if you BUY them. It's the "first sale doctrine" -- you bought it, it's yours! You can lend, rent and sell them, at your hearts will.

Not always for DVD's. Books in general, yes.

The reason being that with a DVD you may have paid for the disc itself, but you only paid for a license for the content (music or movie) which comes with restrictions. This is usually true of movies, music, and computer games.

And before you say "But stores rent them!" yes they rent them, but have a license to do so. Disclaimer- I used to work in the rental business.

Now there are often exemptions to these types of things, for example public libraries and schools are often exempted, at least to a limited degree.

(I'm speaking in the US, don't know about other countries)

Re:Wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a writer and if a library would offer me money for loans of my books I think I would laugh. Free publicity my friends, and also most people that loan books in a library wouldn't be even reading them if they had to pay for them.

I think there is a line where copyright must end and knowledge availability must begin and that line is right there in the doors of the libraries.

Re:Wait...

[91degrees]

I wonder what would happen if one were to declare one doesn't accept the GPL and then distributes software licensed with GPL, but only in ways allowed by GPL?

If I understand it, the GPL is a limited grant of permissions (to redistribute). I think you automatically accept it by doing anything that requires permission. Much like if you have a fishing licence, you can declare you don't accept it, but if you go fishing you clearly have accepted it.

Re:Wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

In more general terms, it is known as Public Lending Right. "A Public Lending Right program compensates authors for the potential loss of sales from their works being available in public libraries." There is a 1992 EU directive that covers rental and lending rights.[1]

What both the article and /. is skipping is this has nothing to do with physical versus digital. The question is whether Bookabooka is fufilling an established legal duty. Which may be a question just like that of the Pirate Bay -- are they only an intermediary that connects parties? Meaning the renting party, not Bookabooka, should be paying a fee under the EU directive.

I can't read Bookabooka's site, so I don't know their stated position on this. And I'm certainly not going to try to parse the EU directive -- several member countries have implemented legislation that the EU has said doesn't get it right. Law is hard. But let's be clear that lending libraries do not exisit outside of copyright royalities. Countries inside and outside of the EU have legislation that force libraries to compensate the copyright holder. [2]

[1] Note for Americans - yup, Finland is part of the EU.

[2] I'm a minor author. I know bloody well my books are in libraries in a couple of countries where such laws are enforced. I've never seen any such revenue on my publishers' statements. Frankly I think it's collected, and then the "artist" way down the food chain never hears about it, just like in music.

AC because my contracts have clear statements that I mustn't say mean things about my publisher. Fine. Moderation should apply to content anyway.

Re:Wait...

[Frederico Camara]

My mistake, you're right. By Copyright Law, you can use original works as long as you don't accept an EULA, which is a contract.

But, at least in the case of software (and it is very criticized, there's no agreement on enforceability), acceptance of an EULA may occur when you unwrap the contents of a box, or when you use it. It is a contract that you submit to regardless of having read it, agreed to it or signed it, it is assumed you have, and the enforceability is supposed, based in this premise.

Anyway, it is not the case of the GPL, which focus on giving certain rights, restricted by Copyright Law. GPL mentors are probably critics of EULAs.

If it were an EULA, it would not be wise to ignore it, because regardless of Copyright Law, you would risk going to court to determine if you are bound by the license.

Re:Wait...

[iJusten]

I'm under impression (which may well be wrong) that you have to be client/member for the collecting agency. Otherwise your share will get divided with other writers.

Also, there was also controversy few years back that the association that handled music compensations refused to pay them outside the country (Finland). If you are interested how book-compensations are handled in Finland, you should probably contact info at sanasto.fi.

Re:Wait...

[DarkVader]

Um, it's not a GPL violation to give your friend a binary unless he asks for the source and you refuse to give it to him.

You just have to make the source available to someone you distribute a binary to.

Re:Wait...

[TheRaven64]

No, you have to either include the source or a written offer to provide the source on some medium commonly used for software interchange. If you do neither, then you are violating the GPLv2, section 3. The one exemption, section 3c, allows you to pass on the upstream offer of the source, but only if you received a binary-only version. If you downloaded the source, compiled it, and then gave binaries to your friends then you are violating the GPL. Now, your friend probably won't tell the original author (the only person with standing to sue you), but that doesn't mean that you are not committing copyright infringement.

If all of the people who advocated the GPL actually read the license, instead of the executive summaries, there would be a lot fewer GPL advocates around.

Seems Ironic

[WeirdJohn]

It seems ironic that a company that represents book publisher doesn't have anyone that can actually read, and that the first listed book on BookaBooka is "EU LAW: Text, Cases and Materials"!

Stupid.

[haeger]

This gets really stupid after a while. I mean everything you do will be a threat to someone's "business model". If I choose to walk to work then I threaten Fords model. If I choose to go the Gym instead of buying a wii-fit I'm hurting Nintendo.
Could my ISP sue me for writing a letter instead of an email?

Ridiculous is what it is.

Re:Stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the USPS, and you are threatening our business model by posting an 'electronic message' in lieu of sending said message through our mail system. Please cease and desist all electronic messaging, as it could lead to the bankruptcy one of a critical US system (which is too big to fail without detriment to the economy).

Re:Stupid.

[toyjoy]

I agree with you.

The Finnish national copyright lobby should be sued just by putting this in consideration. Why shouldn't i rent something that is mine ??? Or when i buy a book i'm not really buying it but i'm only getting the possibility to read the book and put it in a shelve getting dust over the years.

I'm reading a book that were from my parents i hope that's not a crime.

Re:Stupid.

[Renraku]

Companies exist only because we the consumers support them.

You are not threatening someone's business model if you do not buy from them. The onus is on the company to come up with a business model that will compel you to buy from them. If they fail to do that, then that's their own fault. As long as you aren't breaking any laws.

In the end, its all about money. Buggy-whip manufactures never did have millions of dollars to waste trying to lobby to congress to outlaw cars. Nintendo doesn't have that kind of money to waste, either. Hell, even Ford didn't back in his day.

However, media companies do. Oil companies do. Banks do.

Guess who law will favor in the future?

You could very well be looking at criminal charges for not paying off your credit card bill, or at having your door kicked in by the SWAT team because you downloaded some music online.

The companies with the most power are exactly the ones that shouldn't have any.

Re:Stupid.

[Creepy Crawler]

Not exactly.

Once certain companies gain a certain critical mass, they are seen as "vital to the economy" and the government will bend over to them. In cases of copyrights and media companies, this means a rather unfair Media Tax.

Garbage like this also guarantees that killing them is that much tougher. Government has seen to their protection, so then govt is the thing that needs to be brought down a notch to stop the support.

Re:Stupid.

[freedom_india]

If i continue to live, am a threat to the Hearse makers consortium.
If i die, am a threat to the pharma companies.
If i read, am a threat to RIAA.
If i write, am a threat to MPAA.
If a watch a movie, am a threat to Authors Guild
If i sit at home idle, am a threat to Comcast Cable.
If i browse the internet, am a threat to NY Times
So basically, everything i do or not do is a threat to some industry.

Re:Stupid.

[IBBoard]

Could my ISP sue me for writing a letter instead of an email?

Perhaps, but the more worrying thought is that you're screwed both ways because the postal service could sue you for writing an email instead of sending a letter ;)

Re:Stupid.

[Ed Avis]

The onus is on the company to come up with a business model that will compel you to buy from them.

Ugg, be careful what you wish for: DRM systems are exactly designed to 'compel' you to pay money for things which were previously your fair use rights.

The onus is on government to make a system that creates just enough artificial monopoly rights to 'promote progress in science and the useful arts', while minimizing the effect on individual liberty.

Re:Stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

whoops, too late!

Re:Stupid.

[pHus10n]

Why do you hate America?

Re:Stupid.

[SendBot]

DRM systems are exactly designed to 'compel' you to pay money for things which were previously your fair use rights.

There's a reason they call it "defective by design". I can't say with authority, but I'm pretty darn sure drm has only hurt the entities that use it.

Re:Stupid.

[AnalPerfume]

For answer see parent post, lol.

Re:Stupid.

[WCMI92]

This gets really stupid after a while. I mean everything you do will be a threat to someone's "business model". If I choose to walk to work then I threaten Fords model. If I choose to go the Gym instead of buying a wii-fit I'm hurting Nintendo.
Could my ISP sue me for writing a letter instead of an email?

This is pretty much the welfare mentality that has infected business. Businesses and industries now think that just because they have made money in the past that they are entitled to it in the future, even with changing technology and such that might make what they are doing obsolete. IE: the recording industry... So, just like the lazy do-less welfare slob, these companies thinks that the public owes them something for nothing regardless of what they do or don't do.

"Adapt or Die" has become "Pay me or get sued"

Re:Stupid.

[perryizgr8]

and if you buy a ford, you are hurting toyota's business model.
if you buy wii-fit you threaten you local gym's business model.
ridiculous indeed.

Re:Stupid.

[perryizgr8]

You could very well be looking at criminal charges for not paying off your credit card bill...

well that seems to be a real crime to me. you borrowed money from someone and agreed to a contract that you would pay it back after a pre-determined time period. now if you breach the contract, isn't it a crime?

Re:Stupid.

[Flaming Foobar]

If I choose to walk to work then I threaten Fords model. If I choose to go the Gym instead of buying a wii-fit I'm hurting Nintendo.

Not really the same thing. In the Bookabooka scenario it's always the exact same product, not an alternative.

A better car analogy would be buying a car at a big discount due to an agreement which forbids its rental, and then renting it anyway.

Re:Stupid.

[Daravon]

So are you suggesting that we kill you to end the threat, or to give a few billion to each of the companies on your list?

Signed,
Your Senator

Re:Stupid.

[NeutronCowboy]

I don't know if it is so much as an infection as the realization that this approach works. Everybody has looked at how much success the RIAA has had in lobbying for preservation of their business model. And in turn, everyone wants a cut of the piece.

I have to admit, if I were a lawyer at a corporation, I'd look very closely at this avenue to make more money for myself and the company. Granted, I'd have to shoot myself afterwards, and this is one of the reasons why I'm not a lawyer. But you have to admit that "Pay me or get sued" has been a wildly successful business strategy, particularly if any IP is involved.

Re:Stupid.

[freedom_india]

Dear Senator,
Killing me would cause a loss of income to Pharma companies and RIAA and the Authors Guild.
Do you seriously want them to stop giving you any more "campaign" funds?
Thanks

Re:Stupid.

[freedom_india]

The onus is on the company to come up with a business model that will compel you to buy from them.

What model does Comcast, AT&T, Sony Music and Bank of America have in common?

Re:Stupid.

[dkf]

If i continue to live, am a threat to the Hearse makers consortium.

No, you're just a futures contract to them.

Re:Stupid.

[noidentity]

Ugg, be careful what you wish for: DRM systems are exactly designed to 'compel' you to pay money for things which were previously your fair use rights.

The problem with DRM isn't the technology, since that can be broken; it's that it's illegal to break it and publish how. (not that you were saying otherwise, just noting)

Re:Stupid.

[Fulcrum of Evil]

You are not threatening someone's business model if you do not buy from them.

Of course you are. Threatening someone's business model is not and should not be illegal.

Re:Stupid.

[Eil]

Dude. If only I had mod points. I would hack Slashdot to give your comment like 18 of them.

What you said is exactly what's been resonating in my head for years. Corporations have become lazy to the point that they squander their (sometimes ill-gotten) riches on the lifestyles of their top-tier execs instead of competing in the market or enriching the community that built them. Their business models have switched from "become a market leader through superior performance" to "intimidate the fuck out of everyone until they just hand us money."

Monarchy died because citizens eventually realized that their kings were, without exception, acting in their own best interests instead of the interest of their civilizations. Corporations are in the same boat, the only question is if, when, and how they too will be replaced.

Re:Stupid.

[freedom_india]

Excuse me?

Re:Stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot an important one...
If I fall sick or get hurt I am a threat to insurance companies.

Re:Stupid.

[pHus10n]

It's a joke. If you'd like me to explain it, I will... but I assumed you had previously seen this internet meme.

Re:Stupid.

[Tuoqui]

In the case of the USA... The 'Big Media' are seen as too big to fail since the USA's only export these days is cultural. Same with other Imaginary Property laws like Patents, Trademarks and such...

If the USA was actually a manufacturing economy they wouldn't need heavy protection on these things.

Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[BeShaMo]

Somebody is smelling blood here...

The logical conclusion of all this (including that EU law that is being looked at at the moment, where you have to be able to prove ownership of all media on your laptop/mp3player when crossing the border) is that private ownership cease to exist, and only corporations can own anything, and then allow the rest of us a peak once in a while, for a fee of course.

My only comfort is that when (if) the revolution comes it will no longer be the politicians who are first against the wall, but the copyright lobbyists...

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[redhog]

The "revolution" is already here. It isn't a bloody one though, just the Pirate Party lining up for the EU parliament election the 7th of June.

We fight for your rights. We fight for a Free Internet. Vote for your local Pirate Party.

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[CarpetShark]

Somebody is smelling blood here...

Yes, and given how corporations are lining up on one side, and how young private citizens are lining up in Sweden, that blood might well come in the form of a civil war one day.

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but you can only vote for it in Sweden or so I read. I imagine that somewhat lessens the impact it could have.

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[Aris Katsaris]

"Freedom of speech is not freedom to steal."

Copyright violation isn't stealing. It isn't depriving anyone of any object, physical or informational, at all.

"If you want to make point, boycot abusive companies, don't continue using their products,"

Yes, I was like you recently, thinking that only abuses of copyright were a problem. In truth, in the informational age, all copyright is a massive problem, as the companies nowadays don't provide ANYTHING of value for the items they want to be paid for -- neither transport and distribution, nor printing, nor anything at all.

Copyright-dependent companies have now become mere parasites on the artists and the consumers both.

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[OhPlz]

Copyright violation isn't stealing. It isn't depriving anyone of any object, physical or informational, at all.

You're depriving them of reward for the hard work they put into creating the material. If someone spends a year writing a book, you think everyone just has an implicit right to possess it? Why?

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[yabastaaa]

Sadly, despite having approx 18months of news coverage of the American presidential candidate campaigns and elections, then actual presidential campaigns then elections, then 'obama! woo!' for an extra couple of months, we in the UK have had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING regarding the european elections :(

Thanks to you I know have a date, but who's standing in my area? How do I find out? Where do I vote? The news blackout on this is complete (even from the relatively even-handed BBC) in this increasingly xenophobic shithole of a country :(

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[bit01]

If someone spends a year writing a book, you think everyone just has an implicit right to possess it? Why?

You think distributors have an implicit right to restrict freedom of speech? Why?

All "rights" trade one person against another. The question is what is the correct balance. That's a value judgment and it's not at all clear that one person should be able to completely restrict what 6,700,000,000+ people do.

---

Copyrights and patents are privileges, not rights.

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[Cathbard]

That doesn't make it theft. If you decide you like my table but can't afford the price I want for it so you go home, chop down a tree and make one yourself you have stolen nothing. You haven't even deprived me of income (not that that is relevant to the theft issue) because you were never going to buy my table anyway.

There's a book you may want to consult - it's called a dictionary.

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[am 2k]

When you play by the rules, it's not a revolution.

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[Aris Katsaris]

"You're depriving them of reward for the hard work they put into creating the material."

No, they no longer own the copyright. The publishing company owns the copyright. And the company didn't create the material, the value it added was about the PRINTING (which I no longer require in most cases) and the DISTRIBUTION (which I'm now paying my ISP and phone company for).

If I like a writer's work, I'm very likely to reward him via a Paypal donation. But not if I had to pay for his book in advance, before reading it.

I can do much more good for the author if I download his books for free, and I then reward the ones I like through a Paypal donation. Much more money will be going to many more creators then, than by enriching companies that no longer provide any additional value at all.

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[jedidiah]

> "Freedom of speech is not freedom to steal."

Actually, that is EXACTLY what it is.

Freedom to speak and create culture is FAR more important than someone's ability to profit from it.

This is why copyright is supposed to have a built in safeguard so that
wankers can't go around trying to sue you for just helping to contribute
to the state of the art and culture in society. This is why copyright is
supposed to be LIMITED.

The nonsense with MLK's speeches is the perfect example of this sort
of interference in subsequent generations being prevented from
contributing to politically relevant speech and culture.

Paul McCartney needs to "get the f*ck off the stage" and not bother the current generation.

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a truly inaccurate metaphor - you might as well say "feel free to record your own music to listen to, or write your own books to read." Its not the physical object that costs anyone anything - its the service fee for using someone elses work.

If you dont pay for services or intellectual property created by others who do not wish to give it away for free, then you are taking something from them that they dont want you to have. The fact that it is not a physical object that they will personally find missing means nothing.

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[Hebbinator]

Go ahead and mod this down, Im submitting this in anger. I am sick and tired of these BS blanket paypal statements - I would like to see statistics on all these direct payments to authors/musicians/game developers that slashdotters say they donate to after pirating stuff. I hear a lot about them, but after looking hard I can't find a paypal account to donate to anyone currently being published by another company. I know that there are certain cases, including radiohead's paypal album a year or so ago, where your model makes sense. However, note that before this album came out, they were already world-renowned musicians. Their popularity and recognition which makes this system work for them hinged on radio hits distributed by.. publishers. Also, the ability to independently record and produce their own album was likely due to the massive royalties and ticket sales secondary to this distribution.

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[Aris Katsaris]

"I would like to see statistics on all these direct payments to authors/musicians/game developers that slashdotters say they donate to after pirating stuff."

Yes, I would like to see some statistics too, but as you say, the lack of Paypal buttons diminishes our power to make our desired model possible.

I've donated to webcomics like Gunnerkrigg Curt or Penny && Aggie that were already offered for free, but e.g. Terry Pratchett would have earned much more money from me if he also had a Paypal button available. Instead I was morally forced to buy his "Nation" from fictionwise com, instead of being content with my eMule copy (which was much more readable as it suffered from no DRM). Which means that instead of dollars, he ended up getting mere cents from my purchase, as most of the money went to publishers that offered no additional value *at all*.

So who was doing the stealing here? Me from Pratchett for downloading a DRM-free copy AND buying a useless one from fictionwise.com, or his publishers for depriving both me and Pratchett of the money they took?

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[Daravon]

I don't think any currently discussed copyright issues are going to be the cause of the revolution.

Just wait for another 20-40 years, when a company helps you correct the genes in your kid when he's in the womb to prevent a horrible disease. That child grows up, has a child of his own, and gets sued for reproduction (hah!) of copyrighted material (their special Gene Sauce).

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[Aris Katsaris]

"The fact that it is not a physical object that they will personally find missing means nothing."

It means the world. It means your act of supposed "stealing" doesn't actually increase unhappiness or cause inconvenience to anyone, like acts of traditional theft do. That's an important distinction, when your pleasure doesn't benefit someone but atleast it doesn't harm them either.

As for "service fee" -- I'd normally agree with you, except that I think that a world where everyone read books freely and they then rewarded voluntarily the authors they preferred would actually mean much more money going to the creators themselves.

I know for example that I've often hesitated before buying books because of their monetary costs. If I could buy them freely, and then reward my favourite authors, I assure you those get much more money from me, than the mere cents they end up receiving now for each purchase. And the books would spread more widely, as I could email my favourite ones to all my friends.

But the attitude needs change. The attitude ought become "read freely first, pay if you like it later".

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[Fulcrum of Evil]

You're depriving them of reward for the hard work they put into creating the material. If someone spends a year writing a book, you think everyone just has an implicit right to possess it? Why?

No, but there's no guarantee of reward either. If someone is infringing my copyright, I can go after them for statutory damages, but I can't complain if i simply don't sell any copies.

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[shutdown -p now]

including that EU law that is being looked at at the moment, where you have to be able to prove ownership of all media on your laptop/mp3player when crossing the border

That one sounds really nasty. Do you have any links to decent write-ups on it?

Re:Smell of blood/books in the morning, etc.

[alexo]

Freedom of speech is not freedom to steal.

Then stop stealing my culture.

Is this even illegal?

[eyal0]

In the USA, reselling a book is totally legal. I imagine that renting one is, too. Which part of the copyright law are they accused of breaking?

Re:Is this even illegal?

[MichaelSmith]

In the USA, reselling a book is totally legal. I imagine that renting one is, too. Which part of the copyright law are they accused of breaking?

Apparently some people actually borrow books from libraries without paying at all. Its a scandal.

Re:Is this even illegal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Libraries don't just buy any book in a book shop. They have specially licensed copies. They also pay various copyright associations for lending out their books.

It's similar to how the dvd's that you buy in a shop or on Amazon contain a notice that forbids renting, public performance etc.

Copyright laws do allow the owners of the exploitation rights of copyrighted works to lay down such restrictions, and to hand out different kinds of licenses to different people/organisations.

That said, the whole "Pirate Bay for Books" wolf-cry is just pathetic.

Re:Is this even illegal?

[Velska1]

Reselling a book in Finland is totally legal. There may be a point about lending/renting out books if you're not a library, which has to buy a different license. Even then all you have to do is change the term 'rental' to 'sale'.

You sell the book to your friend. It doesn't matter if you just met. There are plenty of services that work like that. Then you buy it back from him a little cheaper, because he didn't really like it. See? Actually, there are tons of second-hand book shops around that do exactly that.

Re:Is this even illegal?

[tg123]

Libraries don't just buy any book in a book shop. They have specially licensed copies. They also pay various copyright associations for lending out their books.

It's similar to how the dvd's that you buy in a shop or on Amazon contain a notice that forbids renting, public performance etc.

Copyright laws do allow the owners of the exploitation rights of copyrighted works to lay down such restrictions, and to hand out different kinds of licenses to different people/organisations......................

um can you provide evidence of this for books ?

I know that this is the case with dvd's that you rent from a store but not with books.

Re:Is this even illegal?

[iJusten]

I don't know about the getting copies part, but Sanasto Ry was founded three years ago and the first thing they did was ask money from libraries. Finnish article from 2006

On Sanasto's frontpage, they mention that they got their demands. Sanasto's homepage

Ministry of Education has on November of 2008 named Sanasto, Kopiosto and Teosto responsible for dividing lending compensations for creators. Lending compensation is a copyright compensation for creators from books lend out from libraries.

(Opetusministeriö on marraskuussa 2008 nimennyt Sanaston, Kopioston ja Teoston tilittämään tekijöille tulevat lainauskorvaukset. Lainauskorvaus on kirjastoista lainattavien teosten lainaamisesta suoritettava tekijänoikeuskorvaus tekijöille.)

Re:Is this even illegal?

[tg123]

I don't know about the getting copies part, but Sanasto Ry was founded three years ago and the first thing they did was ask money from libraries. Finnish article from 2006.......

wow!!!

I checked it out in Australia if there is more than 50 copies of your book in a public library you get payed. Its called public lending right.

http://www.arts.gov.au/books/lending_rights/public_lending_right_-_guidelines_for_claimants

However in the article they were only talking small amounts.

Makes me wonder, How tight assed are the finns?

Re:Is this even illegal?

[tg123]

.................... Makes me wonder, How tight assed are the finns?

whoops that should read how penny pinching are the finn copyright holders?

Re:Is this even illegal?

[canajin56]

Not in Finland. There is no first sale doctrine there. Libraries have to pay fees to the publishers for every book loaned. DVD rentals are illegal if you don't pay a fee to the publishers there, too. This isn't the USA. They should have put that in bold in the summary! In Finland this is quite illegal, you cannot lend or borrow anything, even from a friend!

Coming from an author...

[Max Romantschuk]

There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute or common law. Neither individuals nor corporations have any right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back.

Robert Heinlein, Life-Line (1939)
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein

Re:Coming from an author...

[MichaelSmith]

Arthur Clarke used to say that if anybody sent him a book to sign (and send back) he would just give it to a local library. He may lose a sale by doing that but it is more likely he will gain a sale. When I was young I mainly read library books, and books borrowed from other sources. I only bought books when I had the money, which wasn't very often.

Re:Coming from an author...

[MadJo]

Wait, he gave away someone else's property? Someone bought the book, sent it to him to have it signed by him, and instead of sending the book back, he gave it away?
That looks a lot like theft to me.

Re:Coming from an author...

[AlterRNow]

Isn't that called theft?

Re:Coming from an author...

[MichaelSmith]

Wait, he gave away someone else's property? Someone bought the book, sent it to him to have it signed by him, and instead of sending the book back, he gave it away? That looks a lot like theft to me.

What are they going to do? Track him down in Sri Lanka?

Re:Coming from an author...

[mspohr]

When you send something to somebody in the mail, you are giving it to them. They can do anything they want with it. It is no longer your property.

This is firmly established in the US because companies used to send unsolicited merchandise to people and then demand payment. They sent it to you, you can keep it.

Re:Coming from an author...

[Philip_the_physicist]

Unsolicited goods: he may have to give the owner a reasonable mount of time to collect them (at the owners expense) but after that they become his to do as he wishes.

Disclaimer: IANAL, this is based on my vauge understanding of UK and Australian law, Sri Lanka may be very different.

Re:Coming from an author...

[jsiren]

Arthur Clarke used to say that if anybody sent him a book to sign (and send back) he would just give it to a local library. He may lose a sale by doing that but it is more likely he will gain a sale.

Those who did send him books to sign must not have liked it...

When I was young I mainly read library books, and books borrowed from other sources. I only bought books when I had the money, which wasn't very often.

When I was young, the library was where I used to hang out. I didn't own many books, but I did read a lot.

Re:Coming from an author...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, if someone sends you material unsolicited, you have no obligation to return the item to their ownership

Re:Coming from an author...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think if you receive something in the mail, you're not legally obliged to send it back signed or not signed.

Re:Coming from an author...

[Anonymous Coward]

He never advertised a book-signing service. IANAL, but it isn't theft to give it to the library because any unsolicited mail you receive is a gift, yours to do anything you like with, regardless of what the sender's wishes are. I could send you a computer to fix, but if I did, you'd have every right to ignore it completely, trash it, or give it away.

Re:Coming from an author...

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it theft when someone sends you an exciting offer from one of our sponsors in the mail and I throw it in the trash instead of signing it and sending it back like they want?

Re:Coming from an author...

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was young, the library was where I used to hang out. I didn't own many books, but I did read a lot.

Strange. We used to hang out in the library, and now we hang out on the internet. I don't own many web sites (any!), but I sure do read a lot. ;)

\\ posting AC to save my up-mods.

Re:Coming from an author...

[dargaud]

When I was young, the library was where I used to hang out.

Couple years ago I took a climbing road trip of the SW US, and on rainy days we would just go hang out in small town libraries. I was really surprised to see them often crowded by very varied crowds (bums, students, kids, tourists, old timers, etc...)

Re:Coming from an author...

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that called theft?

No. It is unsolicited. Arthur never asked for the book to be sent to him for signing. If he had then it would be considered theft.

Re:Coming from an author...

[MadJo]

Okay, I hadn't seen it like that. It just feels weird. :) Mailing an item in such a fashion is based on trust.

In a way, Arthur Clarke actions caused his book to get bought two (or more) times for the same fan.

The first book gets sent to him, he gives to a library.
Fan doesn't get his book back, doesn't hear anything -> assumes that his book got lost in the mail, buys another book (*ca-ching* for ACC).
If they really wanted that signed copy, they'd send it again to ACC, who would have then again handed that book to a library.
Fan again doesn't hear anything, assumes book is lost, buys it for a third time (again *ca-ching* for ACC).

Neat trick. :)

Re:Coming from an author...

[PhilHibbs]

If you mail something to me, unsolicited, it's mine.

Re:Coming from an author...

[Shrike82]

I heard that when he held book signings he'd sign people's books, then throw them in a fire and spit in their faces too. Man, he sounds like a real douchebag.

Re:Coming from an author...

[Anonymous Coward]

But then your opinion isn't worth shit, because if you had any legal knowledge at all you'd be aware of the concept of an involuntary bailee.

Re:Coming from an author...

[Hognoxious]

I'd suspect that with the civil war they're having right now a few missing books isn't going to be top priority.

Re:Coming from an author...

[russotto]

I heard that when he held book signings he'd sign people's books, then throw them in a fire and spit in their faces too. Man, he sounds like a real douchebag.

No, you're thinking of Harlan Ellison.

Re:Coming from an author...

[AlterRNow]

Thank you ( and your post siblings ) for correcting that incorrect line of thought.
That makes perfect sense.

Re:Coming from an author...

[gnu-user]

A little quick googling confirmed my suspicions. Mr Clarke donated books that were sent without return postage

Now why is it part of the authors duty to spring for time and postage to mail a book signing request back to the requestor?

I'd say the sender is thoughtless and selfish, regardless of what you might think of Mr Clarke's behavior.

Re:Coming from an author...

[Anonymous Coward]

Granted, but you have to admit it kind of sounds like a dick move.

Re:Coming from an author...

[Shrike82]

I was just kidding. I don't really think he spat in people's faces. I'll use humour HTML tags next time.

Where else can we extract money ?

[Going_Digital]

In the latest news publishers have launched legal action against the postal service for facilitating copyright violation. It has been discovered that copyright works have been transported through the postal system and publishers say that they are entitled to a payment from the postal service as they have access to material that is not theirs. A publishers representative has said "Why should the postal service profit from delivering our material to our customers without paying a fee to support our authors. After we send it and before our customers receive it the postal service has unauthorized access to copyright material denying our customers access to it during that period. We therefore believe that the postal service should pay a royalty to cover this period".

What copy?

[Moblaster]

It seems to me that "copyright" refers, in the most straightforward way possible, to the "right to copy." There are no copies being made in this case. It is simple, exclusive transfer of one embodiment of a book's content, convenient embedded in the physical, tangible medium of dead tree.

No copy, no outrage.

But the lawyers are getting paid, so as usual they will entertain the self-serving legal theories of their clients with dignity and care until such time as they lose or go broke.

Re:What copy?

[tg123]

It seems to me that "copyright" refers, in the most straightforward way possible, to the "right to copy.".........No copy, no outrage.

But the lawyers are getting paid, so as usual they will entertain the self-serving legal theories of their clients with dignity and care until such time as they lose or go broke.

Thats the core of the story "lawyers are getting paid" and pure greed on the part of the publishers.

 

Re:What copy?

[worip]

Maybe the publishers are so greedy, BECAUSE they have to pay the lawyers!

Re:What copy?

[funkatron]

It seems to me that copyright refers to the exact opposite of the right to copy. It is the "right" not to have copies made.

If copyright meant the right to copy I would support it

Re:What copy?

[ciderVisor]

A book's contents, conveniently embedded in the physical, tangible medium of dead tree.

Just be careful you don't buy a swarm of Vashta Nerada while you're at it.

Re:What copy?

[TheRaven64]

pure greed on the part of the publishers

Please note, this is the Finnish copyright lobby, and not any publishing companies. The only time my publisher (one of the largest in the USA) has got involved in this kind of thing in relation to any of my work was when someone decided to post the PDF copy of my book to a public mailing list, and then their only involvement was to request that it be removed from the online archives.

If you Google for the title of my last book, the top link is to a site where you can download the PDF illegally (straight HTTP - no peer-to-peer needed). If the publishers were going to start going after copyright infringement, then they would start here. Instead, they are attempting to add value in other ways to discourage copyright infringement, for example by setting up services like Safari Books Online where you can, for a small subscription, read any of their catalogue online or download the PDF versions, or by adding video courses on DVD accompanying the books.

Re:What copy?

[cfulmer]

You'd think that. But, at least in the US, Copyright has more, including the right to copy, the right to distribute, the right to make derivative works & the right to perform or display publicly.

What we need is a little DRM

[erroneus]

We need book DRM so that only the person who bought the book can read it. We also need to prevent people from reading books aloud so that they cannot be shared in other ways. That's the REAL reason I don't read books to my 2 year old... it would be immoral!!

I have seen some greedy bastards in my day, but this really takes a new low. This is essentially a social book club!! It's not like people are making copies of books and selling them. The publishers need their asses handed to them in a BIG way.

Re:What we need is a little DRM

[digitig]

We need book DRM so that only the person who bought the book can read it.

That would be the Kindle, then. I knew there had to be some reason for dedicated eBook readers.

Re:What we need is a little DRM

[Qzukk]

We need book DRM

They can try, but they won't succeed.

Next will be Public Libraries

[freedom_india]

We gotta stop these RIAA/MPAA morons before they ruin every little thing.
Next thing these morons would change the law to outlaw public libraries. Politicians as they always are, care about the next campaign, and almighty money. So they would say to the public that terrorists used libraries to steal ideas for making bombs, and so libraries must be closed or terrorists would take over the world.
O'Reilly would jump in with a pinhead or patriot question about Paris Hilton being a pinhead for supporting libraries and Miley Cyrus as a patriot for saying libraries are dull (Jamie Foxx says that Cyrus should make a s*x tape in Library).
First of all, create a group, donate liberally to it, hire the best lobbyist and make politicians fight for you, against RIAA/MPAA. Fight fire with fire.

Re:Next will be Public Libraries

[tg123]

............... Politicians as they always are, care about the next campaign, and almighty money. So they would say to the public that terrorists used libraries to steal ideas for making bombs, and so libraries must be closed or terrorists would take over the world.

dude quiet , you might give the politicians ideas.

if you really think about libraries have terror potential ........

shhhhhhhhhh

Re:Next will be Public Libraries

[freedom_india]

Don't worry, they already did that.
In 2000 i opened a library account in Sydney, Australia at a Public Library: All i needed was a letter addressed to my home address and my name on it. I showed them my latest Telstra bill and i had my account opened in 20 mins.
FFW to 2004, in Boston USA, when i went to open an account at a public library i had to show: my passport as ID, my check book for address proof, and a letter addressed to me to show that i lived there (No, a check book is only 10 points). It took 20 mins.

Re:Next will be Public Libraries

[MichaelSmith]

Yeah but thats in case you borrow a book on bomb manufacture and they have to report you to the ATF.

Rental

[mr100percent]

This sounds like a mail-order library, or for those of you who are too young to remember a library, it's like Netflix for books.

This is not the first to do this, how about Bookswim in America?

First sale doctrine?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is neither illegal nor morally questionable.

I don't know if Finland have a first sale doctrine, but where I'm from, if you buy something it's yours and you can lend, sell or give it to whoever you want.

A system that asserts you don't have complete control over a book that you legitimately purchased is rather a frightening one. Trying to establish this sort of thing under the guise of "copyright" is becoming very fashionable, yet doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.

We need to stamp this out before it spreads.

Don't do this

[Idiot with a gun]

This is such a poor plan. When you take music away from people, you take away entertainment. Take away books (especially text books), you make people dumber. And we have a problem with this already.

Re:Don't do this

[kaaposc]

Take away books (especially text books), you make people dumber.

Maybe that is their real goal? Dumb crowd is easier controlled.

Re:Don't do this

[horza]

When you take music away from people, you also take away part of their culture. A few decades ago there was an uproar about this music called rock and roll. It was slammed by the establishment for moral decadence and became the focal point for a rebellious youth movement.

Phillip.

Re:Don't do this

[Idiot with a gun]

I'm not trying to degrade music. But I feel books are more important, especially text books. Then again, I am a CS major, and the son of an engineer.

Re:Don't do this

[CodeBuster]

Take away books (especially text books), you make people dumber. And we have a problem with this already.

Perhaps that is part of their intention, reduce the average level of education and intelligence in the general population so that the elite may compete more easily and better consolidate their power and wealth. Why compete with equals when one can compete with foolish, superstitious, and ignorant people instead?

Re:Don't do this

[shazzle]

What's the problem in making people dumber?

If the people are dumber, they'll be more easily manipulated and that saves a lot of money from the Big Media persuading people!

The big companies don't want smart consumers, they want consumers that buy - governments don't want smart citizens criticising bad developments either. Ignorance is bliss, and a strength too, just not for us regular sheeplings.

It is not copyright infringement.

[bliz1985]

This reminds of an idiot in an online forum who insisted that it is illegal to lend your friend a dvd or book which you own, that only you can watch/read your dvd/book.

Most dvds state that rental is not allowed, while most books just prohibit the illegal reproduction of the book without saying that rental of book is not allowed. To prove my point that it is perfectly alright to lend your friend a dvd or book, I emailed the IPOS (Intellectual Property Office of Singapore) but instead of a reassurance that it is alright, I got a reply that told me to consult my lawyer. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure that something is considered rental only if there is monetary gain.

Indeed this hurts the business model of the book authors and the publishing firms. In this case, there is only one physical copy of the book so it is not copyright infringement. Also, would those who use the service have bought the book in the first place? Without this service, will they eventually borrow the book from their friend's friend anyway (through word of mouth or online networking tools), go without the book, or share a book with a course mate?

If someone who has a book wants to lend it to others, it should be perfectly alright. At any point of time, the (total time of all bought books in existence)/(total time of bought books being read) is already way greater than one. Why should it be the case that we are not allowed to decrease this ratio just to ensure that authors and publishing firms can earn more? It makes better sense for mother earth if the ratio is close to one.

At the end of the day, if students do not photocopy the books in excess of what is legally permitted or do not pay the photocopying copyright fee, there is no copyright infringement. This service is just to facilitate the sharing of resources. Even if this service makes a profit through membership or advertisement, and it actually does contribute to lesser people buying books, it shouldn't be illegal. The internet makes it easier for people with similar interests to communicate and achieve their common goals, money-grubbing companies should just get over with it.

If this is illegal, so should bookcrossing, freecycle, craigslist, free giveaways, garage sales etc... In fact, I see this as a specific application of the first-sale doctrine (just that money being exchanged is 0).

Re:It is not copyright infringement.

[MichaelSmith]

To prove my point that it is perfectly alright to lend your friend a dvd or book, I emailed the IPOS (Intellectual Property Office of Singapore)

Jesus thats brave. Maybe I should send an email to the secret service asking if it is okay to walk up to them with concealed weapons. What could possibly go wrong.

Re:It is not copyright infringement.

[El_Muerte_TDS]

Most dvds state that rental is not allowed

The trick is not to rent DVDs, but lend it to people asking to recuperate you on diminished value due to wear and tear, and for the fact that for a short period do have to access to the item you own.

Re:It is not copyright infringement.

[denzacar]

To prove my point that it is perfectly alright to lend your friend a dvd or book, I emailed the IPOS (Intellectual Property Office of Singapore) but instead of a reassurance that it is alright, I got a reply that told me to consult my lawyer.

Whatcha askin mefore - Ah just work here.

Coincidentally, what you did might be a good way to probe potential employers in the government sector.
Ask them a question pertaining to their supposed area of expertise.
If you get an answer like the one you got above - that might be a great place to await your retirement playing solitaire at the expense of the taxpayers.

Re:It is not copyright infringement.

[beowulfcluster]

lend it to people asking to recuperate you .. for the fact that for a short period do have to access to the item you own.

Isn't this what renting something is?

Re:It is not copyright infringement.

[El_Muerte_TDS]

It has the same effect, but the method is different.

Godwin variant

[xouumalperxe]

Pirate Bay? What the hell does this have to do with the Pirate Bay?

Somehow, I think that, since the pirate bay guys got a bad verdict, comparing organizations to the Pirate Bay because they're screwing with your profits will become a fad. In which case, with due credit to that Godwin chap, I hereby claim ownership of Alperxe's Law: "All discussions about an organization hurting IP-based corporations will eventually devolve into the target of the discussion being compared to The Pirate Bay".

Re:Godwin variant

[kaaposc]

Pirate Bay? What the hell does this have to do with the Pirate Bay?

"Pirate" - it is just another new buzzword for legalizing their actions. Remember Bush's "War on terror"?

Re:Godwin variant

[jeti]

There's a good chance that the Pirate Bay verdict will be overturned.

"The judge in the Pirate Bay case, Tomas NorstrÃm, has been a member of several of the same copyright protection organisations as several of the main entertainment industry representatives, Sveriges Radio's P3 news programme reports." http://www.thelocal.se/19028/20090423/

Re:Godwin variant

[Dansteeleuk]

Yeah, but whose side will everyone take in the "War on Pirates?" Drugs are bad mmmkay? Pirates are cool. ARRRR! The only chance they have is forming an army of ninjas.

Re:Godwin variant

[BiggerIsBetter]

Somehow, I think that, since the pirate bay guys got a bad verdict, comparing organizations to the Pirate Bay because they're screwing with your profits will become a fad. In which case, with due credit to that Godwin chap, I hereby claim ownership of Alperxe's Law: "All discussions about an organization hurting IP-based corporations will eventually devolve into the target of the discussion being compared to The Pirate Bay".

Unfortunately, Xouumalperxe's Law just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Re:Godwin variant

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. But only if you call it "Pêssego Law".

Re:Godwin variant

[BiggerIsBetter]

There's a good chance that the Pirate Bay verdict will be overturned.

"The judge in the Pirate Bay case, Tomas NorstrÃm, has been a member of several of the same copyright protection organisations as several of the main entertainment industry representatives, Sveriges Radio's P3 news programme reports." http://www.thelocal.se/19028/20090423/

Wow. That's so far from a fair trial it blows my mind. He should lose his position over that.

Re:Godwin variant

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I remember for years reading comments like: "...just like Napster" or "... is the new Napster."

Re:Godwin variant

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember terrorists.. and possibly children.

Re:Godwin variant

[Anonymous Coward]

Its been replaced by Obama's "War on Pirates"

Re:Godwin variant

[Vexorian]

Alperxe's Law: "All discussions about an organization hurting IP-based corporations will eventually devolve into the target of the discussion being compared to The Pirate Bay".

Sorry but, "Alerxe's" ? I cannot picture myself remembering that name, the reason Godwin gets invoked so much is that it is such an incredibly easy name to remember "God-win!" .

Re:Godwin variant

[xouumalperxe]

That would be a friend of mine's handle, not mine. Sorry.

next up

[El_Muerte_TDS]

Wiping your ass with pages from a book will also be considered copyright infringement.

Re:next up

[TheRaven64]

Well, it is creating a derived work, and in some cases a better one than the original...

BS.

[thesupraman]

Bullshit, I work at time for a publisher, most libraries get deep discounts, and they (and you) are very free to lend out books. Go look up first sale doctrine. Lending out or sale is NOT a restricted public performance.
Copyright certainly does NOT give publishers rights to any license they want.

Re:BS.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit, I work at time for a publisher, most libraries get deep discounts, and they (and you) are very free to lend out books. Go look up first sale doctrine.

Go look up Finland. Hint: it's not a US state.

Lending out or sale is NOT a restricted public performance.

In this case it's about renting.

Copyright certainly does NOT give publishers rights to any license they want.

I didn't say they could license it in any way they want, I said they could lay down restrictions such as the ones I mentioned. It's obvious they cannot put anything in their license that goes against the law.

Re:BS.

[tepples]

Lending out or sale is NOT a restricted public performance.

In what country?

The right to read

[tpwch]

Do we still have the right to read?

There's Always A Way

[Velska1]

If you live, maybe you'll become another "reality TV" star and give lots of fodder for the tabloids.

If you die, perhaps you'll go in a big enough bang to give an idea for someone to write a blockbuster movie.

If you read, perhaps you'll find a book that infringes on someone's copyright and you can get a finders fee from a trolling lawyer.

If you write, there is always someone who kills someone in a grisly enough way for you to create a thriller script, which the MPAA will buy from you for 5 bucks, 'cause you're a nobody, and make it into at least 5 mil.

You get the drift...

Re:There's Always A Way

[Velska1]

Yeah, I've noticed sarcasm seldom works...

You know..

[thinkpol]

There is this building in my city that actually allows people to go and get the books that people want. It's crazy - you go to their website, search for a book, and then, like magic, you can use the book without paying for it. It's called a "library" and its almost like the Pirate Bay, except not at all.

Because of Internet

[iJusten]

TTVK:n mukaan vuokraaminen ilman kustantajien ja tekijöiden lupaa on laitonta, koska palvelu toimii internetissä, eli kuka tahansa voi käyttää sitä.

TTVK (Copyright-information and enforcement Association) says that renting without rights from publishers or writers is illegal, because the service operates over Internet, and everybody can use it. Source.

How can you possibly argue over so eloquent argument?

Re:Because of Internet

[oneirophrenos]

TTVK (Copyright-information and enforcement Association) says that renting without rights from publishers or writers is illegal, because the service operates over Internet, and everybody can use it.

That is super retarded. What about libraries? Since when could *everyone* not use them? Greedy people will think of any justification to get more money.

Re:Because of Internet

[thannine]

TTVK (Copyright-information and enforcement Association) says that renting without rights from publishers or writers is illegal, because the service operates over Internet, and everybody can use it.

Well, I'm sad to say, but that's how it goes according to the law in Finland. You are allowed to sell the book you own, or you can lend it, but You're not allowed rent it out for money.
The "over the Internet" is just there because the law speaks about making a book (or another piece of copyrighted material) available to the public for rental, and being in the Internet is a proof of being available to the public.
You may not like it, I definitely don't like it, but that's the law in Finland.

Re:Because of Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

... koska palvelu toimii internetissä, eli kuka tahansa voi käyttää sitä.

... because the service operates over Internet, and everybody can use it.

How can you possibly argue over so eloquent argument?

Where does this assumption come from?
Just because something is done over internet, does not automatically mean, that anyone may use it. Or does it?
If i set up moderatelly crapy page/service on the internet, then i assume that blind people for example would not be able to use it.
I have access to my bank account over internet, but it does not mean, that _anyoune_ can use my account. Or does it?

the oldest enemy..

[Luuseens]

I say, we all go after the oldest enemy of the poor ol' copyright owners! *queue spooky music* The Libraries!! Someone should teach those copyright breaching, information sharing rat bastards a lesson!

What about ebay?

[Anonymous Coward]

HA... next thing you know, ebay is going to be in violation of copyright laws because you can "buy" books for only a penny - virtually loaning them anyway.

Now - if that is ok, then bookabooka must be ok. If not - I smell a legal loop-hole that they could take advantage of - a 'rental fee' so to speak.

Re:What about ebay?

[Anonymous Coward]

because you can "buy" books for only a penny

And pay much more in shipping charges. This practice is actually against the eBay TOS because it undermines the % eBay is supposed to receive on the sale.

Get used to it.

[YouDoNotWantToKnow]

Now that the western society "wealth" generation is completely dependent on artificial scarcity, people who benefit the most from this charade will be trying very hard to protect their revenue streams. They will only fail if the "third world" manages to gather behind China's lead, emancipate itself from corporate slavery and take back what they rightfully deserve. The concept of intelectual property is flawed in surprisingly similar ways the idea of communism was. Instead of promoting well-being of the masses through supporting investment in research and creativity, it has become a tool of manipulation used by the elites.

I gave my newspaper to my friend this morning...

[captainpanic]

Am I going to be arrested now?

I also borrowed a book from a friend, and (although unrelated) I bought him a beer at about the same time as I got the book...

Am I going to jail now?

I believe that all these copyright trolls are trying to get a single payment (one time profit) out of this. Even they would not be so stupid to believe that this will result in a more strict policy and controls on university campus to check the owners of books.

I GOT IT!

[denzacar]

You are a terrorist! Right?

An accident of language and history

[Kaseijin]

It seems to me that "copyright" refers, in the most straightforward way possible, to the "right to copy."

Etymologically, the 'copy' in 'copyright' refers to the original work. The earliest copyright statutes restricted printing specifically. When the laws were broadened much later, it was primarily to cover new technologies for publishing works, like the phonograph. Copyright includes an exclusive right to reproduction because technologies to reproduce information grew diverse before they grew cheap.

I am discriminated!

[Anonymous Coward]

AThe bad is the spok of not listen the bots whre the sunk sting of discrimino to me fir h000oikqwn **G*GUW HIHI ih 9h0hri*(*(*hu icdkjhua fuoijwqjiqioiqwiIOIOIOIDOIWJIDJ OIJ DJICDJXWIDCUW W DWuq9q9999 9qw9 9q 999999q9ie9klaljljLJLLJLJjdfoiea nfiusauiyfag 8rg73u7ufoijfoi ifou foi penis fhoiuewahfudsaohuhp rjw aoiiPIIPPIIIIP hfsagg7saddsygdsydgysdygsgd uYY((Y2ho2 oi i2oi o2 oi oi2.

TTVK: Your dinosaur is double-parked.

[kulakovich]

Your business model is dead. Your lawsuit is the wake.

~kulakovich

Commercial rental

[DrYak]

At least in my country, it's common to see "not for rental" stickers on DVDs that you buy. The media companies obtained a special clause in our copyright law that allows them to enforce this.

For commercial rental. You can't setup a DVD rental, for profit, shop. Nonetheless you can lend your own DVD to your friends.

I think that DVD rental shops have to buy special "rental" versions of DVDs, which have a much higher price than the regular ones.

Or buy a separate license that allows them to.
But again, for profit commercial DVD rental shop should have to shell out additional money. Though I don't know in which jurisdiction they have to...

Books can be loaned out by libraries, because the book publishers haven't enough financial clout to get a similar law passed.

In addition to that, the service talked about in the summary isn't a library renting books, merely a forum where the users can meet each other to exchange books in a way which is perfectly acceptable according to their jurisdiction's equivalent of the first sale doctrine.

As a side note, Swiss university libraries *do* pay an additional license for the material they make available.
This license covers the duplication.
It is perfectly legal, as either a Swiss student or as regular user of the library to go in, make photocopy of whatever you need and takes those home.
Web publication is authorized too, as long as access is similarly limited to students.

Finland soon

[Anonymous Coward]

The Finnish Pirate Party is also organizing, although it still needs to reach 5000 registered supporters to be given legal status as a party.

Coming Up Next:

[Anonymous Coward]

Car Industry Association threatens to sue every car renting service for copyright infringement.

Finns do this! (And anyone: Please mod this up!)

[Anonymous Coward]

This was the last straw for me so I decided to do something and I ask my fellow Finns to do the same:

Request and sign a supporter card of The Pirate Party in Finland. Do it here, it obliges you to nothing and doesn't make you a member of the party, you only sign it to show that you want The Pirate Party to be registered. Once they have 5 000 signatures, they can become a registered party and enter elections. The immediate advantage will of course be the increased publicity once they are registered.

Ps. Please mod this up.

How they going to stop progress ?

[HollyMolly-1122]

Are they going to arrest anyone who owns scanner or copier ? For what else these devices are meant to be used ? Are these devices postulate crime ? Are they they going to arrest everybody in a party who will sing "Happy birthday to you !" just because of Copyright infringement in a group ? Are they going to stop mankind achievements ? Going this way, they could smash somebody's car, just because of he or she used it to deliver some copies of text book to the friend. Or just stop internet entirely, for not being honest to their lag into thinking :-) Creazy people.

Who's stealing?

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't stealing. It's (if not for profit) not even piracy.

It's a civil tort infringing on the copyright holders' granted monopoly on copying their works.

Some people are just bored.

[indre1]

People who come up with this stuff simply have too much free time in their hands.

I don't believe that this will go through in Finnish court.

Lending books

[pickle_in_being]

I am going to lend a friend a book today, just for the sake of doing so. It may not be possible anymore within a given amount of time.

Buggy whips

[Anonymous Coward]

The leading buggy whip company saw change in the air and became what is now one of the leading automotive parts suppliers in the world. So in reality the old tired "buggy whip" analogy is not terribly apt. Most of the places making buggy whips just started making something else and stayed in business.

I don't know what the proper analogy is for the current crop of companies that think their business model needs to be protected by legislation, but it's not buggy whip manufacturers.

While on the topic of libraries...

[Firethorn]

This site sounds almost needlessly limited; libraries have been doing similar transfers for decades, and not just limited to textbooks.

Which kinda makes sense. Textbooks tend to be for a specific class. Research books and materials, on the other hand, are both more universal and often rarer.

Then again, it could be a translation issue and be about research/professional books and not just about the american definition of 'textbook' being a book mostly used for a class.

Who cares?

[PeeShootr]

It's fucking Finland!! How much could a book publisher make from their book for Whale Blubbering 101 or Fjord scaling 300 anyway?

Hmm... Good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I never heard of such facility until the anti-piracy measures hit the news. Gotta check it out.

(BTW, I never heard of the Pirate Bay until I read the newspaper about the trial. What a great service this is and I can't help regretting how much money I spent on movies before this. Now I can get those cool collectors/directors editions for free, before I had to buy bargain bin releases because I also had to buy $SOME_OTHER_STUFF.)

Disclaimer: the above is a fictional reaction of an average consumer who reads newspapers instead of grey sites... Anywho, any publicity is good publicity.

I propose a solution

[kimvette]

Hello everyone, I'd like to announce that I have a solution which will work for everyone. Through my solution, you will actually OWN the copyrighted works you purchased, in accordance with the law. However my solution includes a safeguard which 100% guarantees that copyrights will not be infringed outside of the framework of Fair Use.

My solution is revolutionary, and yet so obvious, it's amazing to me that no one has ever considered it. To me, the "intellectual property" holders seem completely stupid, just barely approaching the intelligence of an idiot savant.

Now, please, hold back your excitement. I'll reveal my proposal very shortly, but first I need to inform you that both my copyright enforcement/protection method AND my business method are patented. You may contact me privately to inquire about licensing my patent and of course to learn where you may remit the licensing fees, which I am confident you will find completely reasonable.

Surely you are familiar with gold and other precious metal certificates, and you are familiar with futures. What I propose is selling not your copyrighted works, since distributing them makes your intellectual property vulnerable to relentless infringement and violates your right to control the resale and/or rental of those works due to that pesky doctrine of first sale.

Instead, what I propose is not the sale of books, CDs, MP3s, and DVDs, but rather, that you sell book CERTIFICATES. MP3 CERTIFICATES. DVD CERTIFICATES. Perhaps even COMPUTER SOFTWARE CERTIFICATES (I still have to work out the licensing details on the software - that is a business idea which is patent pending, because you know, the methods with movies and books are patented, but "doing it with computers" is a completely novel implementation so of course you understand I must patent it). Instead of delivering that copyrighted work to the customer, the customer receives a hologram-imprinted official certificate of deposit, where the book, MP3, CD, or DVD is always retained by the copyright holder and placed into escrow.

These certificates may be sold, resold, and rented to the owners' hearts' content; use of the Copyrighted Work Certificates are unrestricted in their use. Need toilet paper? Use your certificate. You're a worthless stoner and need a hit? Just roll one up in your certificate. Want to run a book or movie rental business? This program is for you, Need to invest in your college education? This solution isn't for you. Instead see the "Futures" section below.

Regarding Copyrighted Work Futures: this is somewhat similar to the Copyrighted Work Certificate, except in this case you are trading on the the speculated future worth of our intellectual property. Of course, the futrure value of each Copyrighted Work Certificate will vary based on the demand and popularity of our works. You may trade these futures any time you wish, but we recommend purchasing in advance of our non-publication dates for our copyrighted works for maximal investment value.

As you can see, my solution is completely flawless. Copyrights cannot be infringed by reading, listening to, or watching them, so no unauthorized, infringing copies are retained in anyone's brain. Our copyright cannot be violated by parodies, commentaries, or criticisms. We will never receive a bad review, so no one can possibly libel our works. Most importantly, no one will be able to steal our rightful revenue by reselling those copyrighted works. We even will admit that you own these Copyrighted Work Certificates.

It is the perfect solution that doesn't allow those pesky first sale doctrine and fair use clauses interfere, nor DMCA exceptions! You can start thanking me now.

Aren't you happy I created this noteworthy solution?

Re:I propose a solution

[kimvette]

Due to the overwhelmingly popular response we have drafted a preliminary fact. Thank you for all of your inquiries we are pleased that we have a Copyrighted Work solution which appears will make everybody happy,

Q. Will I be able to read, view, or listen to my copyrighted work?

A. Our Copyrighted Work Certificate product ensures that our copyright will never be infringed, including the Fair Use copy stored in your mind.

Q. How will I know what the book is about?

A. We will soon be announcing our Copyrighted Work Synopsis Certificate product in the near future. Stay tuned!

Q. Will works enter the Public Domain?

A. We are reasonably sure that the Copyrighted Work Certificates will eventually fall into Public Domain, however, with this product we have eliminated intellectual property ownership issues which the Constitution introduces. We were unhappy with the whole "limited duration" thing because it forces us to continue to innovate and create useful arts and sciences to remain profitable. That is cruel and unusual punishment!

Re:I propose a solution

[kimvette]

Two additions to the FAQ:

Q. I do not like this business method.

A. The customer is always wrong. It is not your integrity we question.

Q. How do I know the copyrighted work I own actually exists and is in escrow?

A. You can trust us. You trust gold certificates, don't you? It is not our integrity that is in question. We have INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY we must protect!

Speaking as a publisher...

[Garwulf]

Well, speaking as an actual publisher, I don't see a problem with Bookabooka. They aren't making any copies, and what people want to do with books once they've bought them, so long as they aren't breaking the law, is their own business.

Besides, if one of my company's books is being rented, hopefully whoever rents it will like it enough that they buy a copy for themselves.

Re:Speaking as a publisher...

[HikingStick]

You nailed it. The book was purchased. After that, its private commerce. In the US, that's the first sale doctrine. Authors and publishers get their cut on the first sale. After that (e.g. garage sales, used book stores), nothing goes back up the tree to the content producers.

Re:Speaking as a publisher...

[Garwulf]

I'd also add that the point of a publisher business model is to get the books you publish into the hands of paying readers. This means being realistic about what is out there, and not wasting valuable time on side-issues.

For example, I don't sell e-book versions of the books I publish. I have e-samples available for the new books, and full e-books for the public domain reprint(s), but I don't charge a cent for either. That's just because the e-book represents so little of the book market (frequently less than 0.7%) that concentrating on making inroads there just doesn't get books into the hands of readers - although they are very good for free advertising on file sharing websites. On the other hand, a new technology is being tested called an Expresso Book Machine, or EBM, that prints a book for a reader within minutes, and could allow any bookstore with one of these machines to have access to millions of books. That is something I am going to try to get into at the earliest opportunity.

This Bookabooka thing is a waste of time for a publisher. It's not going to cut into book sales any more than the second hand book market will, and the only thing you can do by trying to fight them is enrich your lawyer while alienating the people your business model relies on to buy your books. It's a side-issue, and wasted time that could be spent publishing more books.

The Pirate Bay is the new hammer

[Geshem]

Now everything is a nail...

When were the Psychedic Furs big, early 80s?

[smchris]

I remember a "record rental" store by our Big 10 U. They lasted a few months before they got squashed. Which is basically to say that this stuff is ancient and isn't a very viable business model.

Enough already!

[gnarlin]

I just can't stand one more bullshit copyright-gone-bat-shit-crazy story! What drugs are these copywrong thugs on anyways? It is is an intrinsic part of copyright to be able to borrow, give and/or lend copyrighted material. These people and organizations are such fucking hypocrites. When the law favors them they whine about how people aren't obeying the law, but when they don't like some new better organized way of sharing legally under fair use they complain because whey want to have their moneycake and eat it too.

Many moons ago I thought that it might to possible for the copyright-happy authors to make a new cultural-sharing bargain with the public. After all, that is supposedly what copyright is. Something to help enrich the common culture the fastest and best way for everyone.

Now, after an endless barrage of stories and every news outlet for all these years about how the copyright people are fucking over everyone in their hunt for the great big white whale of total control of culture I have had ENOUGH!

FUCK COPYRIGHT AND FUCK THOSE PEOPLE!
If they don't want the public to disseminate their works I suggest they hide them where the sun don't shine and that way we, the "pirates" will never get our hands on them... ever.

Thank you for your attention.

Rental is evil now

[Vexorian]

It is interesting that copyright holders don't seem to think content purchasers are allowed to rent their stuff. And they take offense to it as if it was the same as piracy. Book publishers are not alone, see what game devs think of it : http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20041215/hook_01.shtml

Of course, maybe with all the piracy paranoia we allowed things to degenerate into a situation that companies want to be protected from ANYTHING that would hurt their sales. Not something I like.

First they came for music

[rwwyatt]

I did not complain as I do not listen to music. They came for my books and I did not complain as I do not read. Then they came for my porn, and then I joined the revolution.

Lucky they don't sell secondhand books on Ebay!

[clickety6]

oh wait... they do!

Just a matter of membership wording?

[germ!nation]

Won't the membership statement just be like:

"Any books sent are as gifts to the recipient. If the recipient wishes to gift the book back to you around the time that you gift your book back to them then this is purely coincidental".

Unless giving people gifts is illegal too?

Where does the "copying" come in?

[nasor]

Perhaps someone could explain where the "copying" comes in here? How is this any different from setting up a webpage that lets people rent out their car, or lawnmower, or TV, or any other bit of property that they own?

The Finnish law on rentals

[Anonymous Coward]

In Finland the distribution right of the copyright holder as far as renting is considered does not end at first sale. That means renting, at least when done commercially or in organized fashion, requires the permission of the rights holders.

The video renting is based entirely on contract between the store and the copyright holders. In practice the stores need to buy more expensive rental DVD's.

I think in many European countries the law is very similar, especially in Sweden.

On other aspects the law is very liberal. One can copy for private use. That is one can go to a library and xerox the entire book. Studying is considered private use but education is not. One does not need to own the copy one is making the copy from.

Where is the Piracy?

[sexconker]

Where is the piracy?

There is no theft involved.

The item being transferred around still gets the sale for the publishers.

No copy is being made (thus, there is NO possible way copyright law is being violated).

And what about on the internet?
Imagine the following:

Guy makes a torrent.
People download it.

People fearing the MAFIAA can download in worm mode:
All they do is download.
Then, later, they seed it.
Upon successful transmission of a piece, it's deleted from the user's computer.

No copy is being made by those in worm mode.
Those in worm mode do not know if the ones they are getting pieces from are also in worm mode.
If they choose to make a copy after it finishes downloading, and before it starts to seed, then that's completely their fault (and completely out-of-band, neener-neener-neener, you can't catch me!).

Obviously downloading in worm mode would be slow (as you're not uploading, you'll get the bottom of the barrel in terms of bandwidth), and uploading in worm mode is terribly efficient. It would fail hard, and no one would use it.

But ThePirateBay is letting people MOVE files. People are the ones subverting the system and copying them, and the MAFIAA can't prove anything ever occurred (they can't do that with regular bittorrent downloads - how do they know the file isn't actually being moved piece by piece, not copied?).

I currently am supporting both

[Dareth]

I have both a gym membership and a Wii Fit.

Of course, I hardly find a reason to go to the gym because they are paid by bank draft.

And my Wii Fit is still wrapped up in the box until I can find time to open it.

Well, at least I can feel good that I am supporting capitalism while it still exists in the USA.

WAAAAAAAAHH!!!!!

[kheldan]

What a bunch of fucking crybabies.
Back in the day I bought copies of Borland Turbo C and Borland C++. They had a licensing agreement that was "like a book": you can loan it out, you can install it on more than one computer -- but so long as only ONE instance was in use at any given time, it was all good. Now someone is trying to say, "Hey, I know you bought that book, but it's AGAINST THE LAW to loan it out to someone else for a small fee". FUCK them, and FUCK copyrights then, I say. Shall we invoke 1984, then? Let's all start committing books to memory, and reciting them for others, who in turn will commit it to memory, and so on, and so on. Let's see them try to copyright our brains and say it's illegal for us to REMEMBER something we read! Same goes for music, movies and television: Let's all recount, verbally, the hottest movies for others, so they DON'T need to go see them, then watch the MPAA shit their pants over it and try to make "reminiscing verbally on a copyrighted work" illegal. It's far past time this bullshit stopped!

I'm confused...

[ghostis]

Copyright is about the right to copy, right? In this case existing copies simply move around. Unless people are renting illegal copies of books, I don't see the relationship between a pay-to-use case and copyright law. Are they saying that Netflix is illegal? What about libraries? It seems like this would only be an issue if the buyers of the books accepted a shrink wrap license that prohibits rental when they opened the book for the first time - enforceability of such licenses notwithstanding.

-Ghostis

Libraries are next if this works.

[nurb432]

This sounds like a membership only library.

Not a lot different with traditional libraries considering my tax dollars go to pay that single copy of a book that 1000 people borrow ( in effect, rent since they paid taxes ) over its physical life. They also offer online inter-library loans, and renewals.

The GPL is not a contract

[Anonymous Coward]

The GPL is not a "contract", it is a "license".

Contracts require a meeting of minds, and consideration from both sides to be formed. After that they are binding on both parties.

The GPL on the other hand is NOT a contract. It is a "license", which is a unilateral grant of permissions with certain conditions attached to the grant. If you accept and abide by the GPL's conditions, then you may now rely on the granted permissions.

By accepting the license and the granted permissions (direct from the original copyright holder, regardless of who actually distributed the software to you), you may be placing obligations on yourself, such as the obligation to release your changes under the GPL.

Your acceptance does not place any obligations of any kind on the distributor, though! The only obligations they have are the ones they already had before you accepted the license. For example, if they are redistributing someone else's GPL'd code, then they also had to accept the GPL license from that other party, so they have obligations under the GPL from that, just like you now have obligations after you accepted it.

So again -- the GPL is not a contract, that requires consideration in both directions and a "meeting of minds" between the two parties. Most EULAs would (laughably) claim to be contracts. The GPL does not.

I'm not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.

Publicity

[shutdown -p now]

The first thing that I thought after reading the TFS, "this BookaBooka thing is a wonderful idea, I wonder if there's one around here".

No, really. No matter how I look at it, it sounds great. It's perfectly moral (despite the fact that I'm not anti-copyright in general), since all books have been bought. Authors have been compensated. And it's a service valuable for the society as a whole.

I hope this lawsuit dies the way it deserves, and the idea catches on around the world.

Ridiculous.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ridiculous. Give an inch and they'll take a mile.

Re:Finns do this! (And anyone: Please mod this up!

[Anonymous Coward]

At the moment over 4000 cards collected, c'mon guys and gals, let's get couple thousand more!