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Robot Soldiers Are Already Being Deployed

destinyland writes "As a Rutgers philosopher discusses robot war scenarios, one science magazine counts the ways robots are already being used in warfare, including YouTube videos of six military robots in action. There are up to 12,000 'robotic units' on the ground in Iraq, some dismantling landmines and roadside bombs, but 'a new generation of bots are designed to be fighting machines.' One bot can operate an M-16 rifle, a machine gun, and a rocket launcher — and 250 people have already been killed by unmanned drones in Pakistan. He also tells the story of a berserk robot explosives gun that killed nine people in South Africa due to a 'software glitch.'"

258 comments

  1. Still got glitches by elashish14 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Apparently our fighting machines are still just in beta.

    --
    I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
    1. Re:Still got glitches by FooAtWFU · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, they've got a few glitches, but you should see what they have to go through to make the legacy system they're replacing work. You're talking years of training, each unit.

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    2. Re:Still got glitches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "YouTube videos of six military robots in action" are in a different article entirely. Thanks again, slashdot editors, for doing your job so well.

    3. Re:Still got glitches by Jurily · · Score: 4, Funny

      Apparently our fighting machines are still just in beta.

      Yeah, a few bugs here and there, but they're ready for production. I mean, it's not like they could kill anyone.

    4. Re:Still got glitches by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And it isn't as though the fleshy ones are without glitches of their own.

    5. Re:Still got glitches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Google gets their hands on it, it will be indefinitely...

    6. Re:Still got glitches by stonetony · · Score: 2, Funny

      Damn skin jobs!

    7. Re:Still got glitches by JCSoRocks · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, they've had a lot of trouble finding people to join the test team. Dunno why. Sure, the first few guys got shot but we're certain we've got the kill switch code working now!

      --
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    8. Re:Still got glitches by everynerd · · Score: 2, Funny

      Google WarMachine is always in beta. Didn't you know?

    9. Re:Still got glitches by pig_eye_jackson · · Score: 3, Informative

      There is a good story about the only armed ground robot ever used "in theater" being pulled from Iraq at Popular Mechanics. This robot made the cover of Popular Mechanics in March 2008. Some details about the robot, SWORDS, and other versions of military robots in production can be found at Foster-Miller's website.

    10. Re:Still got glitches by geobeck · · Score: 4, Funny

      The military would love to have Google as their contractor. Every project would remain in indefinite beta, but the public would inexplicably still trust them.

      Okay, G-bots, go out there and Do No Evil.

      --
      Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
    11. Re:Still got glitches by mebrahim · · Score: 1

      I mean, it's not like they could kill anyone.

      You should also emphasize "anyone". They talk about killing people by robots so that one could think they're talking about killing cockroaches.

    12. Re:Still got glitches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ugly bags of mostly water.

    13. Re:Still got glitches by FatRichie · · Score: 1

      You should have seen the alpha! What am I saying? No one lived through the alpha...

    14. Re:Still got glitches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Organic meatbag.

      (Wow, a situation in which an HK-47 quote is on topic.)

    15. Re:Still got glitches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Killing innocent people isn't a bug, its a feature.

    16. Re:Still got glitches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see these robots, and I'm thinking, what's not stopping someone from running up beside it, and simply pushing them over?

    17. Re:Still got glitches by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      +1 TNG quote

    18. Re:Still got glitches by easyTree · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      President Obama said that he was "shocked and deeply saddened" by the "horrible tragedy."

      "My heart goes out to the families and friends of all the service members involved," he said in a written statement.

      All the iraqies who would've been killed by these six now get an extra chance at life. w00t!

    19. Re:Still got glitches by easyTree · · Score: 1

      550 rounds per minute hitting your body?

    20. Re:Still got glitches by Madcapjack · · Score: 1

      I didn't know that they were Google bots.

    21. Re:Still got glitches by MinistryOfTruthiness · · Score: 1

      The problem was that the user mistook "kill switch" to mean "kill the robot." Sure bet he was surprised!

      --
      "I know that every word that man just said is true, because it's EXACTLY what I wanted to hear." -- Space Ghost
    22. Re:Still got glitches by Philip+K+Dickhead · · Score: 1

      SATIRE You bastards!

      Christ, you'd have modded Swift -1 Flamebait!

      --
      "Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
    23. Re:Still got glitches by genner · · Score: 1

      Apparently our fighting machines are still just in beta.

      Yeah, a few bugs here and there, but they're ready for production. I mean, it's not like they could kill anyone.

      If they can't kill anyone there not realy ready for production, are they?

    24. Re:Still got glitches by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What is scary is you just know some general in the Pentagon is handing a weapons designer a picture of the T800 with no skin from Judgment Day and saying "See that? You just tell us how many bucks you need to crank us off a couple of thousand of those babies to start and we're in business!".

      This whole rush to make killbots reminds me of an interview I saw with the director right after Blue Thunder came out in the 80s. He said 'I make this movie where I try to show exactly how bad giving such an incredibly deadly and intrusive weapon to law enforcement would be, and what happens? I got contacted by dozens of law enforcement groups wanting to know "How much do you want for her?" I saw the movie as a warning and they saw it as a sales pitch." and it is the same thing here. We all saw the devastation when the T800 was let loose upon mankind, and what did THEY see? "Damn! Would you look at the kill ratio of that bad boy! Gimmie 5000 of those puppies back then and I could have WON Vietnam! Let's see an IED stop that sucker! Somebody get me the guys that build them Predator drones on the horn.".

      Somebody needs to save us from those in charge of "protecting" us when they see Blue Thunder and Judgment Day as weapon procurement ads.

      --
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    25. Re:Still got glitches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Exactly how many Iraquis do you think the average American soldier will kill between now and the time that their action in Iraq ceases? Do you think that it is greater than or equal to one? What proportion of those are "justifiable" in some way? None? All? Some?

      You don't help convince people that "iraqi lives are meaningful too" by ascribing zero meaning to the lives of American soldiers.

    26. Re:Still got glitches by s0l1dsnak3123 · · Score: 1

      Heh, maybe the reason why they are deploying robots is so they can kill a few people they don't like and then call the "it was an accident/technical error" card.
      I hate this world.

    27. Re:Still got glitches by easyTree · · Score: 1

      Discounting for the moment the fact that the Americans soldiers are occupying a foreign country against the will of the natives which immediately removes any claim to justifiable 'self-defence' they might level...

      How about incidents like this:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings

    28. Re:Still got glitches by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      As a citizen of Germany, I can assure you, being "occupied" by US troops is the single best thing that can happen to your economy.

      They usually build huge bases back in the most remote areas, generating thousands of civilian jobs, them, their civilian contractors and their employees paying some handsome taxes. They're building top-notch military hospitals where even local "natives" can get a treatment in urgent or complicated cases. The troops themselves usually behave reasonable unless drunk or agitated, but overall not much worse than all other people of the same age and comparable IQ and education level.

      US troops in South Korea, Japan, Germany and some other countries boosted the local economy to growth levels unheard of before or ever since they left.

      I don't think all Iraqis would like the US to leave. They're probably not too happy about non-Muslims in their country, just like we are not too happy about Muslims in our countries - but overall, the average Iraqi civilian probably benefits a LOT from having the US there instead of the Taliban forces or ol' Saddam.

    29. Re:Still got glitches by easyTree · · Score: 1

      You heard it here first folks. Apply now to have *your* country occupied by the USArmy*

      * Apply NOW to avoid disappointment.

    30. Re:Still got glitches by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      You'd be surprised: we had massive public demonstrations when the US troops tried to pull out of several dozen bases after the Iron Curtain fell. Thousands of workers were in the process of losing their jobs and with every base closed, entire communities and small cities were strapped for cash.

      It's not a black and white world. I mean, millions of people are fleeing TO the United States, not from. Can't be so terrible to live under the oh-so fascist boot of the Federal Government, can it?

    31. Re:Still got glitches by easyTree · · Score: 1

      People on the edge of starvation will accept/vote for anything which pushes them back over to the right side of the line, no matter how counterproductive in the long term.

      If everyone had reasonable wealth, why on earth would they opt to have some foreign power occupy their land?

    32. Re:Still got glitches by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      I'll tell you when I finally understand why we have 50 percent of some of our cities inhabited by first-generation immigrants from you-know-where who demand all kinds of backward bendovers from us, like banning pork and stuff.

    33. Re:Still got glitches by easyTree · · Score: 1

      So, are you actually living in Germany?

  2. Waldos by John+Hasler · · Score: 3, Insightful

    None of the devices currently in use are robots. They're just military waldos.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    1. Re:Waldos by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      Not quite, but rather automatics not very different from the automatic doors you have at supermarkets.

      A little bit smarter, but still prone to stupid decisions.

      And also - it's the lowest bidder that has made the weapon. Just go see the Murphy's war law.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    2. Re:Waldos by Philip+K+Dickhead · · Score: 3, Funny

      Binary load-lifters? They speak a dialect quite similar to your evaporators, in many respects.

      --
      "Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
    3. Re:Waldos by rtfa-troll · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A robot is pretty much defined as a device with sensors which acts independently on them. The US Army predator drones are able to land on their own with no operator input and as such definitely count as robots. However, most do not kill automatically, but there seeem to even be some which do that.

      However, I think you are right in a deeper way. None of these things are "intelligent" robots in the sense of Asimov stories. The story has a discussion about the possibility of designing these robots to make ethical decisions but one which ignores the fact that these are hard AI problems over which there has been practically no progress since the dawn of computing. These kind of discussions often end up with someone quoting the Asimovian three laws and this even happens on forums with relatively intelligent informed readers but, apart from the fact that laws designed to ensure safety can't really apply to a device designed for killing, that's totally irrelevant since the three laws are stated in English. The real problem is how to state them in actual program code.

      --
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    4. Re:Waldos by geobeck · · Score: 4, Informative

      The US Army predator drones are able to land on their own with no operator input and as such definitely count as robots.

      In that respect, every large airliner manufactured since the 767 qualifies as a robot. On an average flight, the human pilot serves two purposes: Taxi driver to drive the plane from the terminal to the runway, and second redundant backup system. The autopilot does everything else.

      Of course, in non-average circumstances, the pilot is called on to make decisions too complex for the 'robot' to handle.

      --
      Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
    5. Re:Waldos by RsG · · Score: 3, Insightful

      These kind of discussions often end up with someone quoting the Asimovian three laws and this even happens on forums with relatively intelligent informed readers but, apart from the fact that laws designed to ensure safety can't really apply to a device designed for killing, that's totally irrelevant since the three laws are stated in English. The real problem is how to state them in actual program code.

      The second and third laws could still apply though. The whole "shall not harm, or by inaction allow harm to come to, a human being" law does make for a fairly useless war machine, but you'd want to hardcode the robot to follow orders from a human operator and preserve its own integrity.

      The second law is at least easy to approximate in modern code. If a given order with the right authorization is received through whatever channels the robot is designed to listen to, then it obeys. That actually could be a problem if the machine is used against an enemy with significant electronic warfare capability - they might be able to block orders entirely or substitute new ones.

      There's a world of difference between a machine autonomous enough to need ethical programming and what we have today. I could fairly easily envision a combat robot that had nothing even remotely approximating strong AI, yet still functioned autonomously (would need general orders, but not step by step instructions). A sort of middle ground between an Asimov robot and a modern combat drone.

      For ground robots to fill the role of infantry or armoured vehicles, you'd need some fairly advanced terrain navigation software. This isn't too far off, but we're not there yet. You'd need software to evaluate standing orders versus mission orders and prioritize them accordingly, which seems like it could be accomplished with modern code. You'd need to be able to phrase instructions in a way that a machine can understand, which is as you rightly pointed out difficult, but obviously still possible.

      The real challenge is going to be IFF software - how do you judge a civilian from a combatant, or one side's soldiers from the other? This would be on par with robotic ethics, but target recognition is bound to be simpler to program than right or wrong.

      If those problems were solved, then a combat robot could operate on orders that amount to "proceed to the following GPS coordinates, engage targets, report back."

      My own estimate is that we'll reach this middle ground in a matter of decades, if we're quick about it. We'll doubtlessly see fully autonomous aircraft before ground units - say at least 5-10 years between the former and the later. Will we ever see strong AI deployed independently in warfare? I doubt it. No commander is going to trust a machine that implicitly. What we may see is a centralized strong AI used to manage a network of drones and soldiers, since that at least leaves human decision making in the system.

      --
      Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
    6. Re:Waldos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no autopilot that is used for take-offs. That is by far the single most dangerous part of any flight and it's still done 100% by humans.

    7. Re:Waldos by jaxtherat · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not true, landing and takeoff are done manually.

      Sure, most ILS approaches are done using autopilot, but no airlines perform full autopilot landings due to safety concerns. British Airways did it at Heathrow once to prove a point but that was without passengers.

      --
      http://www.zombieapocalypse.tv/
    8. Re:Waldos by nametaken · · Score: 1

      I think the important distinction we're all looking for in the case of these military "robots", is that humans still do the killing. The weapons are just fancier than ever.

    9. Re:Waldos by rbarreira · · Score: 1

      There is no autopilot that is used for take-offs. That is by far the single most dangerous part of any flight and it's still done 100% by humans.

      I thought landings were more dangerous.

      --

      The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
    10. Re:Waldos by rand.srand() · · Score: 1

      The autopilot isn't HAL, or anything like it. Autopilots execute a series of instructions which are programmed at the start of any flight and modified as necessary en route.

      Essentially, the autopilot follows a script while using the instruments to maintain the airspeed, altitude, and climb/descent rate that is programmed. They also entrust it with turning off the seatbelt lights at 10,000ft.

      This is the easiest part of flying and the most mundane. The auto-pilot accomplishes this through something very similar to a bunch of PID controllers connected to the most basic sensors.

      That may not prevent it from being called a robot... but it's really the reverse scenario of what you present. The robot takes care of a relatively trivial task while the pilots take care of "everything else" (flight rules, fuel, traffic, coordination, navigation, etc etc).

  3. Just because... by WED+Fan · · Score: 1

    Just because we are hung over doesn't mean you call us robots. It's just an unwillingness to deal with the BS.

    --
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
  4. Definition: Robot by WED+Fan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Are radio controlled device robots? Or, is there a certain amount of autonomy that is necessary?

    --
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
    1. Re:Definition: Robot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The definition of Robot now includes remote controlled because so many have not understood its actual meaning.

      http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/robot

      I don't believe so. My interpretation of a robot requires it to act on it's own based on programming but many people use the term robot for any machine that either looks human or is remote controlled.

      It's a remote control car until you slap a machine gun on it, then it's a robot. (sigh)

    2. Re:Definition: Robot by stoolpigeon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think that most of the currently deployed unmanned systems (at least in the case of the US military) do use some type of AI - though it is often working along side a human operator. Of course this is true even with manned systems now - especially in the case of aircraft.

        I like the sense-think-act paradigm to decide what is and isnâ(TM)t a robot. I think any man made device that has sensors, some kind of AI that helps it to decide what to do and then a method of acting on its environment is a robot.

      A machine that is missing any one of the three is not a robot.

      Some people insist upon mobility but I donâ(TM)t think that makes sense. I think the robots on assembly lines are robots even if they canâ(TM)t move around.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    3. Re:Definition: Robot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's just not a "robot"... it's BattleBots 2.0!

    4. Re:Definition: Robot by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think any man made device that has sensors, some kind of AI that helps it to decide what to do and then a method of acting on its environment is a robot.

      AWESOME! You just proved most of Congress are robots!

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    5. Re:Definition: Robot by canajin56 · · Score: 1

      At least one of the robots mentioned in the summary isn't remote controlled. It's an automatic anti aircraft cannon. Apparently the software crashed or something, and instead of failing safe, it failed live, causing it to spin in a circle with the cannons firing at their maximum ROF.

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    6. Re:Definition: Robot by spacefiddle · · Score: 1

      What you're describing is the "Waldo" referenced in comments above - a remotely operated device, like the Preds. Some degree of autonomous decision-making is necessary for the Robot definition.

    7. Re:Definition: Robot by Lord+Ender · · Score: 2, Informative

      Don't use the word AI unless you know what it means. "Computer control" does not mean "AI." AI is used to refer to a specific class of software problems.

      I do agree that anything with a computer, a sensor, and an actuator could be called a robot, no matter how simple. However, this definition does make your cell phone a "robot" because the buttons are sensors and the display is an actuator.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    8. Re:Definition: Robot by stoolpigeon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the cell phone does not 'think'. I meant AI when I said it.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    9. Re:Definition: Robot by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You don't know what you mean when you say "think," then. I take it you got your ideas of "AI" from sci-fi movies, rather than from the computer science classroom.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    10. Re:Definition: Robot by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Personally, I would allow the term 'robot' to be applied to any independent device made up primarily of robotic parts.

      This would be a casual use of the term. The precise technical term is another matter.

    11. Re:Definition: Robot by stoolpigeon · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      you are an ass.

      I definitely know what that means - but please feel free to continue telling me what I know and acting in a condescending, boorish manner.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    12. Re:Definition: Robot by stoolpigeon · · Score: 1

      Predators make a lot of decisions on their own and can do a number of activities autonomously. The human operators just make the big decisions.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    13. Re:Definition: Robot by Culture20 · · Score: 4, Funny

      AWESOME! You just proved most of Congress are robots!

      No no no, he said "Sense, Think, Act." Clearly one of the three is missing.

    14. Re:Definition: Robot by Eric52902 · · Score: 1

      Uhhh....what's the definition of a robotic part? You can't just define a word with itself!

    15. Re:Definition: Robot by corbettw · · Score: 1

      Not unlike a low-level soldier who isn't allowed to decide when to fire his weapon, but has to wait for an officer or non-com to tell him to.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    16. Re:Definition: Robot by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Ah, name calling. I guess that means you've proved your point. Wait, no, it means you gave up once you realized you didn't know what you were talking about.

      You start out by being arrogant and insulting, and then claim that it's a mark of inferiority on your opponent's part when he -- after trying for several posts to be reasonable and polite -- finally responds in kind. You may (or may not, of course) know a little something about artifical intelligence, but you're displaying precious little of the organic kind.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    17. Re:Definition: Robot by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      A part of a robot. Duh.

    18. Re:Definition: Robot by feepness · · Score: 1

      Are landmines robots?

    19. Re:Definition: Robot by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      Not unlike a low-level soldier who isn't allowed to decide when to fire his weapon, but has to wait for an officer or non-com to tell him to.

      Armies haven't worked that way for over a hundred years.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    20. Re:Definition: Robot by stoolpigeon · · Score: 1

      My primary mistake was not calling you on acting like an ass right from the start. I foolishly thought that letting it slide would be the better option.

      I'm here to engage in discussion. You think it is o.k. to speak to me in a demeaning manner. I voice my displeasure, which you brush aside by chalking it up as a negative reaction to your "winning".

      Yeah - I "gave up" in the sheer force of your superior intellect and the realization of my own stupidity. Please inform me of all my other shortcomings.

      Let me return the favor of your admonition to not use words unless it's in a manner you approve. Don't interact with other humans unless you can learn to quit being an ass.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    21. Re:Definition: Robot by Lord+Ender · · Score: 0

      OK, let me put it to you politely.

      What, specifically, does "AI" mean, and how does it differ from any software which uses an "if" statement? If you use other non-obvious terms, such as "think," please define them, as well.

      It always puts me in a bad mood to see top-rated posts misusing CS terms, such as "AI," in a forum for people who should know better; but here's your opportunity to show that you used it right, and that I had no business questioning you condescendingly.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    22. Re:Definition: Robot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I tend to agree with him and I take my idea of "AI" from the idea of a software conditioned to analyze data through it's sensors, and decide on what to do depending on that data. Even if it's a simple thing, like avoid collision. Or the not so simple art of maneuvering through terrain/airspace.

    23. Re:Definition: Robot by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      You could look it up. A robot has to make some decisions for itself. Arguably though ABS is robotic so the line blurs all over the place (e.g. my electric R/C car has regenerative antilock braking... pretty typical feature these days)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    24. Re:Definition: Robot by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Not unlike a low-level soldier who isn't allowed to decide when to fire his weapon, but has to wait for an officer or non-com to tell him to.

      Armies haven't worked that way for over a hundred years.

      That's nonsense — there's plenty of occasions in which a soldier is not permitted to fire without permission. They're just not the status quo. Most of the time if they don't want you shooting anyone, they take away your gun (e.g. National Guard depot watch duty... although they're probably armed these days.)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    25. Re:Definition: Robot by RsG · · Score: 2, Informative

      What, specifically, does "AI" mean

      Artificial Intelligence perhaps? :-P

      More seriously, you're asking a question that I'm not sure anyone, including the other slashdot poster you were sparring with, is equipped to answer fully. If we don't understand intelligence in human beings, despite trying to for millennia, then how are we going to duplicate it?

      Best definition I can think of for "strong" AI is: A software program that is capable of adapting and acting in a manner not specifically covered in its own programming. In other words, software that we cannot fully predict the actions of based on the inputs received (wherein this is a feature not a bug - we're excluding buggy code doing what it isn't supposed to).

      Even this is incomplete, since it doesn't cover all aspects of intelligence, but it'll do for a sort of AI litmus test.

      Also, I think you need to differentiate the CS term "AI" from the generalized term "AI". If you hear one whenever someone uses the other, you'll go as batty as a pedantic organic chemist in a supermarket aisle.

      --
      Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
    26. Re:Definition: Robot by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Natural stupidity trumps artificial intelligence every time.

      The most important thing to learn about arguing on the internet is that nobody wins, even if it's fun.

      The second most important thing to learn about arguing on the internet is to just let it go when it's over. Once you lose, if you reply to say anything other than I AM AN ASSHOLE then you're, well, just an asshole.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    27. Re:Definition: Robot by stoolpigeon · · Score: 1

      There are now 2 things going on here, and to be honest I'm no longer that interested in one of them. The thing that matters is this; I don't need to prove some level of technical proficiency to earn the right to be shown common courtesy. I am not a "fake expert". I've made no claims to any special knowledge or expertise. What I have done is simply join a public discussion.

      I didn't mod that post up. I'm sorry it put you in a bad mood that other people did that - but don't take out your emotional issues on me. I haven't done anything to you.

      I am very interested in robotics, especially their application in a military setting. I read up on the topic when I can and just finished an excellent book on it. This thread offers an excellent opportunity for me to share some of what I've learned and to interact with others who can help me better understand the topic.

      Whether I'm right or wrong is completely irrelevant, especially when the topic at hand is one where very little is clear. The term robot has no universally accepted definition. You appear to be confident that AI is a clear cut term, yet I'd be willing to bet I can find some very genuine AI experts that may not agree. I just watched a good video of Ray Kurzweil the other day where he talked about how the definition is always moving.

      I've spent a lot of time on this reply because I'm hoping it might help you out. I'm trying to choose my words carefully because I have no interest in arguing. I shouldn't have let myself lose my temper in the first place. But with that I am finished. I have limited time and emotional energy - and I've given all I am going to give to this issue.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    28. Re:Definition: Robot by snowraver1 · · Score: 1

      Man, it sucks when an R/C car is more advanced than my real life car.

      --
      Copyright 2010. All rights reserved. This comment may not be copied in any way including, but not limited to caching.
    29. Re:Definition: Robot by Lord+Ender · · Score: 0

      For purposes of computer science, we don't need to get philosophical. Software tackling certain problems which are easy for humans but hard for computers, such as visual object recognition, is considered "AI." Clearly, not all robots run software which tackles such problems, therefore "AI" is not a requirement for something to be considered a robot.

      Your "strong" definition, which could be stated as "software which is unpredictable," is not one I've heard, and certainly not one that applies to defining a robot. Furthermore, I doubt your definition could exist even in theory, but I digress.

      This is Slashdot, not the supermarket. I think it is reasonable to assume CS terminology, especially when discussing CS and related fields.

      Therefore, I maintain that your definition of "robot" is incorrect regardless of which of the proposed definitions of "AI" is used. I further maintain that the definition of "AI" you used is not a recognized definition by those knowledgeable in the field.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    30. Re:Definition: Robot by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      Yes, of course the ROE may specify that the soldier cannot fire without explicit permission from a superior. But the more usual case is for the soldier to be sent out with the understanding that he will use his own judgement as to when to fire or not. GPP made it sound like he was thinking of old-school fighting in which armies deployed in formation and awaited the order for volley fire.

      A lot of people don't seem to realize how much judgement individual soldiers, from privates on up, have to exercise in modern armies. I suspect that this is largely the fault of Hollywood rank inflation -- anyone under the rank of captain or so basically doesn't exist in the military as portrayed in movies and TV, with maybe a token senior NCO.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    31. Re:Definition: Robot by insanecarbonbasedlif · · Score: 1

      What, specifically, does "AI" mean, and how does it differ from any software which uses an "if" statement? If you use other non-obvious terms, such as "think," please define them, as well.

      Why don't you look at a crowd-sourced definition, and fight your weird little "bad mood" thing in the discussion page there? Face it, in a very real sense, AI is used in the world around us, and the fact that it is used in UAVs by the military should come as no surprise to any person interested in general technology (i.e. slashdot user).

      --
      Just because I doubt myself does not mean I find your position compelling.
    32. Re:Definition: Robot by insanecarbonbasedlif · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Software tackling certain problems which are easy for humans but hard for computers,

      That's the most "moving goalposts" definition of something I've read all day. You do realize that chess used to be (relatively) easy for humans, and extremely hard for computers, and nowadays, you can download free chess programs that run on commodity computers and can be all but the most exceptional human chess players? When computers can do something that was hard for them before, and then it becomes commonplace for computers to do it, is it no longer AI?
       
      Please, tell us a substantial definition if you have problems with how everyone is using the term. This weird subjective thing you've presented has no place as a CS definition.

      --
      Just because I doubt myself does not mean I find your position compelling.
    33. Re:Definition: Robot by Anonyme+Connard · · Score: 1

      Only one?

    34. Re:Definition: Robot by insanecarbonbasedlif · · Score: 1

      Correction, should be

      can beat all but the most exceptional human chess players

      --
      Just because I doubt myself does not mean I find your position compelling.
    35. Re:Definition: Robot by RsG · · Score: 1

      Therefore, I maintain that your definition of "robot" is incorrect regardless of which of the proposed definitions of "AI" is used.

      Check the names, please. I am the person you replied to just now (RsG), but am not the person you've been sparring with (Stoolpigeon). I weighed in here because you asked an interesting question. Consequent to this, I did not give you any definition of "robot".

      Now, back to the matter under discussion; the definition of AI.

      For purposes of computer science, we don't need to get philosophical.

      Most of the stuff I've seen written on the theoretical problem of AI is fairly dry. But it says more or less the same thing when it comes to human level processing: We don't know enough, yet.

      Would it be suitably non-philosophical of me to say that "our understanding on such matters as sapience and self-awareness is insufficient to duplicate those states artificially?" That is, from my reading, the point of view held by many in the actual AI field.

      Software tackling certain problems which are easy for humans but hard for computers, such as visual object recognition, is considered "AI." Clearly, not all robots run software which tackles such problems, therefore "AI" is not a requirement for something to be considered a robot.

      Here I suggest we separate one AI from the other.

      I've heard the term "Strong AI" used to describe software that equals or exceeds us meatbags. Strong AI naturally remains in the realm of fiction - we don't have it yet. When most geeks talk about AI, we're implicity referring to this sort. When I responded to your question, I took it for granted that you were asking about this subject, specifically.

      Now that I've seen your point of view stated more clearly, I begin see where you're coming from. You're using "AI" in the sense of software that duplicates basic human functionality. Not "Strong AI", but "Modern, computer science AI".

      Which, come to think of it, makes more sense when talking about combat robots, so I'll concede the point to you. They certainly don't need strong AI. They may or may not need weak AI depending on mission parameters, but with or without it they still count as robots.

      Your "strong" definition, which could be stated as "software which is unpredictable," is not one I've heard, and certainly not one that applies to defining a robot. Furthermore, I doubt your definition could exist even in theory, but I digress.

      Back to the interesting stuff for me.

      I'd say unpredictability is very likely the best indicator we could find for intelligence. I'm not the first to hold this view, obviously, but I put it to you that it is correct.

      You asked how an AI system would be different from traditional code (I believe the phrase used was "a string of IF statements"). Traditional code is predictable. If given a set of inputs, it produces only one output.

      Human beings don't work that way. A single human can produce multiple outputs when given the same input. This is especially true if the input is repeated over and over again; the response changes each time based on the experience of the previous time. This is the functionality of intelligence we've yet to duplicate.

      This is Slashdot, not the supermarket. I think it is reasonable to assume CS terminology, especially when discussing CS and related fields.

      When talking about purely CS subjects, I would be inclined to agree.

      When talking about subjects wherein CS, science fiction, and psychology overlap... not so much.

      Also, I think you missed the point of my supermarket example. An organic chemist with a pedantic streak is going to roll his eyes every time he sees a head of lettuce described as "organic", because it's a term he knows to mean something else entirely. An advanced CS student is going to have the same reaction to the term "AI" similarly abused. I myself find the misuse of several terms annoying to no end - but correcting them is, ultimately, futile. Just gotta learn to live with it.

      --
      Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
    36. Re:Definition: Robot by cyphercell · · Score: 1

      "Furthermore, I doubt your definition could exist even in theory, but I digress."

      I don't think I've ever seen, in existence, software that acted predictably. Now you claim there's a dimension where you don't think unpredictable software is possible. Whatever.

      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
    37. Re:Definition: Robot by thethibs · · Score: 1

      To paraphrase: A robot is a numerically controlled mechanism whose maker calls it a robot.

      --
      I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.
    38. Re:Definition: Robot by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      Still the cellphone is applicable (well mine is anyways)... in that it makes decisions on it's own based on environmental data it collects, then acts on those decisions. My phone knows when it's in a wifi zone and switches receivers, it has a proximity sensor that tells it when to turn off it's touch screen, it receives information from the internet and knows to display a message for me to read... all on it's own without my input or control.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    39. Re:Definition: Robot by initialE · · Score: 1

      Sense+Think "There's something wrong with the state of IP law"
      Sense+Act "We gotta get them terrorists fer what they did to us in 9/11"
      Think+Act "Lets stop the violence in our kids by banning video games"

      --
      Starbucks, Harbuckle of Breath.
    40. Re:Definition: Robot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So would an airbag system be considered such?

  5. I, for one... by Nyvhek · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...do not welcome those who would welcome our new robotic soldier overlords.

    1. Re:I, for one... by Red+Flayer · · Score: 3, Funny

      ...do not welcome those who would welcome our new robotic soldier overlords.

      Well, judging by the redundant moderation, it appears that someone, for one, did not welcome he who did not welcome those who would welcome our new robotic soldier overlords.

      So there.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    2. Re:I, for one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...do not welcome those who would welcome our new robotic soldier overlords.

      Well, judging by the redundant moderation, it appears that someone, for one, did not welcome he who did not welcome those who would welcome our new robotic soldier overlords.

      So there.

      In Soviet Russia, your new robotic soldier overlords would not welcome those who do welcome he who does welcome you.

    3. Re:I, for one... by hipifreq · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Those responsible for not welcoming those that would not welcome our robotic soldier overlords have been sacked

    4. Re:I, for one... by kungfugleek · · Score: 1

      In Soviet Russia, robots deploy you!

    5. Re:I, for one... by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

      Those responsible for not welcoming the poster who would not welcome those who would welcome our new robotic soldier overlords, have been welcomed.

  6. You have 30 seconds to comply by spacefiddle · · Score: 4, Informative

    He also tells the story of a berserk robot explosives gun that killed nine people in South Africa due to a 'software glitch.'

    "You call that a GLITCH?!"

    1. Re:You have 30 seconds to comply by pm_rat_poison · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yes, it's an SGOD: Software Glitch of Death.

    2. Re:You have 30 seconds to comply by WED+Fan · · Score: 0

      Junior Assistant VP = corporate red shirts! +5 Pop Culture Movie Reference.

      --
      Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
    3. Re:You have 30 seconds to comply by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Some people would call it a feature.

    4. Re:You have 30 seconds to comply by MrEricSir · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Old Man: Dick, I'm very disappointed.
      Dick Jones: I'm sure it's only a glitch. A temporary setback.
      The Old Man: You call this a GLITCH?
      [pause]
      The Old Man: We're scheduled to begin construction in 6 months. Your temporary setback could cost us 50 million dollars in interest payments alone!

      (copy/pasted from IMDb)

      --
      There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
    5. Re:You have 30 seconds to comply by spacefiddle · · Score: 1

      The Old Man: You call this a GLITCH?

      Nice, thanks. I didn't look it up before i posted. Pretty close :)

    6. Re:You have 30 seconds to comply by Fantom42 · · Score: 0

      He also tells the story of a berserk robot explosives gun that killed nine people in South Africa due to a 'software glitch.'

      "You call that a GLITCH?!"

      Heh. Yeah. This is really one huge problem with most software, and with FPGA and other programmable logic devices, the disease is spreading to hardware as well. Something which out of context seems like a "glitch" ends up killing people, because there was no way to analyze for it and prevent it from happening. The amount of complexity someone can introduce into software using modern programming languages such as C++ and VHDL is astounding. Testing it all is almost impossible. There are ways to try to bound the complexity, such as creating functional requirements for software that are "provably" correct, but in a lot of ways this just moves the problem to the requirements. For high-risk systems, like airplanes, nuclear reactors, x-ray machines, and I guess now killing machines, many experts have decided to abolish the use of software altogether for certain critical functions. In this case a critical function would be one that would result in a sufficiently high cost of failure.

      One of the more recent treatments of this problem has been done by Nancy Levenson, who has studied this problem across many disciplines and evaluated the various solutions that industry and government have come up with. She makes a compelling case to have a "hardware backup" to any software system because of the undetectable common-mode failures that can occur in software. These kinds of failures invalidate any kind of probablistic analysis, and eliminate the benefit of multiple redundant channels, when they happen to contain the same software. Or surprisingly, even DIFFERENT software written to the same functional requirements. It turns out if you hand two people in different clean rooms the same functional requirements, they tend to come up with solutions with similar vulnerabilities.

      Note that there is a big gaping hole in the concept of a "hardware backup" where a ton of hardware is created by writing VHDL code (a language that is more or less like C with threads). Government agencies that regulate this stuff are playing catch-up where vendors will eschew software safety requirements by embedding them in programmable logic devices and calling it hardware.

    7. Re:You have 30 seconds to comply by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      He also tells the story of a berserk robot explosives gun that killed nine people in South Africa due to a 'software glitch.'

      "You call that a GLITCH?!"

      When conducting a demo in the board room, make sure you don't load the ED-209 with live rounds.

      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    8. Re:You have 30 seconds to comply by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      Actually, that was an Oerlikon Anti Aircraft gun fitted with a new radar control system that malfunctioned during a test. I worked on them years ago. Sad. Those things fire incredibly rapidly, 1500 rounds per minute from both barrels. Consider that you only have about 5 seconds to acquire and shoot down an incoming bomber and you can see why they have to be rapid fire.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    9. Re:You have 30 seconds to comply by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      The 'berserk south africn gun' incident is infamous amongst those of us in the autonomous weapons systems business - mostly due to how much of a mistatement it is and yet gets quoted in a lot of these kinds of stories. The incident in question was a relatively new AAA (anti-aircraft artillery) unit that did in fact have some automated targeting capabilities (most modern AAA systems do). However, the fact it went berserk had nothing to do with a software glitch. It was a mechanical glitch in the firing mechanism that locked the system into a 'fire' mode while the gun when the gun was being trained out. The fact it swung around was because the computer system explicitly did NOT expect to be firing, so the stabilization system wasn't fully active.

    10. Re:You have 30 seconds to comply by easyTree · · Score: 1

      It's a glitch until someone 'important' is killed by the negligence and greed of another.

    11. Re:You have 30 seconds to comply by PhxBlue · · Score: 1

      "You call that a GLITCH?!"

      You're right. More of a "Glick," really.

      (Hint: "Glick" is also the sound one might make if dropped from great height by a fallen angel.)

      --
      !#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
  7. Daily Mail by Colourspace · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I, for one, would take a large pinch of salt with our UK tabloid overlords articles. They are the worst as they are the 'respectable' face of the UK newspapers which millions of middle class Englanders believe, but are the worst of the 'think of the children' brigade.

    1. Re:Daily Mail by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      Sadly the Daily Mail's poor standard of journalism and its biases shouldn't feel unfamiliar to us who are familiar with Slashdot's own editorial issues.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    2. Re:Daily Mail by Perf · · Score: 1
      From TFA:

      "After all, the idea for the mobile phone came from Star Trek..."

      I think not. Mobile phones existed long before Star Trek.

  8. tremendous waste. by nimbius · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ive said it before and ill say it again. we dont need any more fighting robots or war robots. we need robots and machines that PREVENT war through simulation and complex analysis. robots and machines that can predict war, formulate resolutions to our current wars, and advance mankind as a civilization.

    it does not matter if you take people out of the equation or "advance the science of the battlefield" to use a whitewash term from the pentagon. war is still a destructive force in which the net result is loss on all sides.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
    1. Re:tremendous waste. by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      we need robots and machines that PREVENT war through simulation and complex analysis.

      After all, the only winning move is not to play.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    2. Re:tremendous waste. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever see Colossus: The Forbin Project? The computer decides that the best way to prevent war is to take control of all major weapons and effectively hold the entire world hostage.

    3. Re:tremendous waste. by silas_moeckel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      War is ultimately the only way to inflict a nations will upon another. Lets not even get started with the fallacy of you cant gain land though war or a world court etc. All laws have to be enforced ultimately via violence. Throw religion into the mix and it's a ugly irrational thing.

      Want to avoid war find the solutions to our 2 core problems the need for energy and resources. As long as it's easier to get take either of those from somebody else than get it yourself you will have war. Only two solutions is fission/fusion and space colonization / mining. We have one but are afraid to use it and the other is a ways off and under funded.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    4. Re:tremendous waste. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There was a Star Trek (original series) episode that would fit this conversation where war was "simulated" but I can't remember the title. Any help?

    5. Re:tremendous waste. by Shawndeisi · · Score: 1

      Will a resolution decreed by some arbitrary robot be able to change the fact that sometimes two parties want mutually exclusive things and are willing to fight to the death for it?

    6. Re:tremendous waste. by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      We have such machines already. The US DoD, and its counterparts in every industrialized country in the world, run extensive wargames and simulations for every possible scenario, and these days the results of these studies are pretty realistic. And you know what happens? When the people who want to fight the wars get numbers they don't like, they ignore the results and vilify the people who gave them realistic projections, and go to war anyway. Read up on Eric Shinseki for a recent example of this phenomenon, which has happened time and again throughout military history.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    7. Re:tremendous waste. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For this to work we need all belligerents involved to have the same definition of "victory" and "defeat", which mutually exclude one another (in other words, a victory for one side entails defeat for another). If that was true, one could run a simulation analysis and predict which side "wins" and which side "loses".

      This won't work when you have combatants with different ideas of winning and losing. If one side defines a "win" as "getting X barrels of oil out of [insert country name here] per day", and another side defines a "win" as "kill lots of infidels and go to heaven to screw virgins", these objectives do not mutually exclude one another, and both sides benefit from war.

      Of course, by "sides" I mean the powers that be that decide whether there will be a war or not. Nobody gives a fuck about those caught in the actual action.

    8. Re:tremendous waste. by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      we need robots and machines that PREVENT war through simulation and complex analysis. robots and machines that can predict war, formulate resolutions to our current wars, and advance mankind as a civilization.

      That's a great idea!

      What we can do is analyze the predicted outcome of our current wars via simulation, then have each group involved just execute those soldiers that would have been killed.

      That way, we'd still get the popular dislike of the wars due to casualties (which tend to be a driving force in ending long occupational wars), but we don't have to bear the expense of actually *prosecuting* the war.

      Wow. I can't wait for the advances in conflict simulators so we can save a ton of cash on war. Think how many more wars we could enter into if they got so cheap! That would be awesome.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    9. Re:tremendous waste. by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      That's not even slightly true. War is not a "net loss" for successful defenders. It's a great win compared to the alternative (being conquered).

      Further, the idea that the technology being developed here would be at all applicable to the set of problems you mention is just ignorant. The technology to identify targets and fire projectiles is just not at all close to the technology to "predict war, formulate resolutions," whatever that would be.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    10. Re:tremendous waste. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are thinking of M5 in 'The Ultimate Computer' episode but this would seem to be more in line with the situation in 'I, Mudd' where the androids planned to control all humans to prevent war.

    11. Re:tremendous waste. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Homo sapiens population on this planet has exceeded the planet's carrying capacity, thus there genocidal conflicts over limited resources.

      Without a significant natural predator, the Homo sapiens species (clever as always) has created one for itself. A super-predator that eats from the sun, is immune to biological disease, and has no other purpose than depredation of Homo sapiens.

      Your church told you not to use a rubber, now you get to face the killer robots. God Bless America.

    12. Re:tremendous waste. by gringofrijolero · · Score: 1

      ...war is still a destructive force in which the net result is loss on all sides.

      Not so. War is one of the most profitable businesses there is.

      --
      Todos mis movimientos están friamente calculados
    13. Re:tremendous waste. by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      And how do you know the robot won't tell you: "Taking into account your values, future reputational damange, impacts on third parties, threats posed by your enemy, and discounting for the probability that you've fed me incomplete or optimistic information, your best course of action is to go war. Calculation has a margin of safety of 102%."

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    14. Re:tremendous waste. by vertinox · · Score: 4, Insightful

      War is ultimately the only way to inflict a nations will upon another.

      Unless both side has nukes.

      The the only way to inflict your will is through smaller proxy wars and economics.

      Of which both I suppose could also benefit from robotics.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    15. Re:tremendous waste. by fishtorte · · Score: 2, Insightful

      War is ultimately the only way to inflict a nations will upon another.

      The notion that it's a good idea or even possible for one set of people to force its will on another is what leads to war, and it's one we might do well to change.

    16. Re:tremendous waste. by vertinox · · Score: 1

      we need robots and machines that PREVENT war through simulation and complex analysis. robots and machines that can predict war, formulate resolutions to our current wars, and advance mankind as a civilization.

      What would be nice if we had a Manhattan project trying to achieve the same thing as the Blue Brain Project.

      Of course DARPA is doing something related, but not a brain simulation...

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    17. Re:tremendous waste. by megamerican · · Score: 1

      They tried that but it only wanted to play Chess.

      --
      If you have something that you dont want anyone to know, maybe you shouldnt be doing it in the first place -Eric Schmidt
    18. Re:tremendous waste. by edraven · · Score: 1

      Good luck with that.

    19. Re:tremendous waste. by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      ive said it before and ill say it again. we dont need any more fighting robots or war robots. we need robots and machines that PREVENT war through simulation and complex analysis. robots and machines that can predict war, formulate resolutions to our current wars, and advance mankind as a civilization.

      It won't happen.

      We are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and then, whene we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so as to show that we were right. Intellectually, is possible to carry this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually on a battlefield. -- George Orwell

      Hell, you'd think the military would be receptive to lessons learned from things like wargames but they only seek to validate what they already know or have decided upon. You get no brownie points for upsetting the apple cart. You can tell the Pentagon stuff like "carriers have outlived their usefulness and are now floating death traps," you can prove it in wargames and so forth, but nothing will change until we lose a carrier or three to surprise cruise missile attacks. Just look at how long it took to convince the medieval knight his day was over. That's an attack on the very social order!

      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    20. Re:tremendous waste. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      The notion that it's a good idea or even possible for one set of people to force its will on another is what leads to war

      But $insert_deity_here says we're right!

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    21. Re:tremendous waste. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Surprise cruise missile attacks... you mean those missiles that the Phalanx CIWS has repeatedly been shown to be able to destroy? You need a whole fleet of cruise missiles to kill a carrier with 4+ Phalanx systems on it, and ours have 'em. There's ways to take out carriers, but that's not it. (Fleets of microrobots that can aggregate and explode might be more practical, and they could be made in a Taiwanese toy factory.)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    22. Re:tremendous waste. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      That's ok, becasue if history tells us anything, Are robots will fight 'there' robots...that they will have purchases from us.

      hmm, that may be the perfect war. No human gets hurt, and there is a constant need to build replacement robots.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    23. Re:tremendous waste. by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      That's not even slightly true. War is not a "net loss" for successful defenders. It's a great win compared to the alternative (being conquered).

      Ever hear of a Pyrrhic victory?

      A successful defense against an aggressor is only a net gain if the value of not being conquered is greater than the cost of prosecuting the defensive war.

      That value is, of course, extremely hard to calculate, but I think most states have an inflated sense of cultural worth. For the regular people, a peaceful surrender is probably a better resolution than a bloody conflict. It would depend on the nature of the invader, of course...

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    24. Re:tremendous waste. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody has posted the TOS episode this is taken from yet? For shame slashdot, you're slipping ...

    25. Re:tremendous waste. by parlancex · · Score: 1

      Indeed. When they say these machines they are building have the potential to be more moral than human beings, yet they want to use them to fight our wars and kill people it almost seems like the same kind of logic as building a robotic horse for your cart. Building a better horse is looking at the tiniest facet of the problem.

    26. Re:tremendous waste. by Peter+La+Casse · · Score: 1

      The notion that it's a good idea or even possible for one set of people to force its will on another is what leads to war, and it's one we might do well to change.

      A functioning society forces people to limit the extent to which they force their will on others.

      If you believe it's not possible for one set of people to force its will on another, try not paying your taxes.

    27. Re:tremendous waste. by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      I like you geekoid. I friended you a long time ago, because I like how you think, despite your occasional grammatical issues. That being said, I'd like to translate your most recent post into English:

      That's ok, because if history tells us anything, our robots will fight their robots...that they will have purchased from us.

      Humm, that may be the perfect war: No human gets hurt, and there is a constant need to build replacement robots.

      It was a good post, but the grammar hurt my brain a great deal.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    28. Re:tremendous waste. by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "ive said it before and ill say it again. we dont need any more fighting robots or war robots. we need robots and machines that PREVENT war through simulation and complex analysis. robots and machines that can predict war, formulate resolutions to our current wars, and advance mankind as a civilization."

      Of course, some humans will want different outcomes from those proposed via that simulation and complex analysis.
      Superstitionists for example aren't "reasonable", which narrows the options for dealing with them.

      "I am PeaceBot, heed my reasonable advice for the benefit of all!"

      "Jesus Akbar!" (Osama bin Rudolph beheads PeaceBot and sends the video to LiveLeak.)

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    29. Re:tremendous waste. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The notion that it's a good idea or even possible for one set of people to force its will on another is what leads to war, and it's one we might do well to change.

      The notion that it is possible for one set of people to force its will on another is simply factual. It happened countless times in our history.

      The notion that it is a good idea to do so is debatable. However, you miss the other part of the problem.

      So long as anyone, anywhere thinks that it is a good idea, you should be prepared for that someone to try to force their will onto you. And the only way you can counter that force is with a force of your own that is on par or superior with that of the would-be attacker.

    30. Re:tremendous waste. by easyTree · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bah. That'll never fly. There's no profit motive in not killing thousands of foreigners then not being paid to rebuild their damaged country.

    31. Re:tremendous waste. by fishtorte · · Score: 1

      The aggrieved in such a conflict has more than one option, at least one of which--satyagraha--is both effective and nonviolent. In that light I agree with you that force must be met with a counter-force. But if you mean that the only way to resist violence is with more violence, I strongly disagree.

    32. Re:tremendous waste. by easyTree · · Score: 1

      Wow. I can't wait for the advances in conflict simulators so we can save a ton of cash on war. Think how many more wars we could enter into if they got so cheap! That would be awesome.

      Somewhere in a government thinktank, someone is reading slashdot...

    33. Re:tremendous waste. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The aggrieved in such a conflict has more than one option, at least one of which--satyagraha--is both effective and nonviolent.

      This has yet to be proven. The oft-mentioned demonstration of this principle in action was the liberation of India; however, it did not follow from pure application of that principle. There was violence involved, too (and in some non-trivial ways as well - e.g. India supported UK in WW2 with manpower).

      Then also, excuse me if I feel revolted by Gandhi's claims (which are seemingly in the true spirit of satyagraha) such as:

      "The Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs." [regarding Holocaust]

      "I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions...If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them." [to the British at the beginning of WW2]

      I believe that, if that advice of his was heeded by those it was addressed to, the world would be a much more dark and sinister place today than it is.

    34. Re:tremendous waste. by fishtorte · · Score: 1

      If you're referring to the United States government, then it may be more correct to say "a set of people forcing its will on itself." That's how our republic works.

      And that system is user-configurable.

    35. Re:tremendous waste. by fishtorte · · Score: 1

      I don't have to defend satyagraha. It played a historically accepted, defining role both in the liberation of India and in the US Civil Rights movement under Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

      Your straw man attack on Gandhi is irrelevant to the discussion, but you may certainly be right about the world being a darker place had the Allies not fought violently against the Axis in the Second World War.

      However, my point in my original post stands: violence is not the only means by which one people may impose its will on another, and the very idea of effecting such an imposition can be considered offensive to a reasonable person.

    36. Re:tremendous waste. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      However, my point in my original post stands: violence is not the only means by which one people may impose its will on another

      Good. I definitely didn't claim that violence is the only way of imposing your will. It is a popular way, however, and even if you don't subscribe to it yourself, you should be prepared for others to try using it on you. That's really all there is to it.

    37. Re:tremendous waste. by thethibs · · Score: 1

      robots and machines that can predict war, formulate resolutions to our current wars, and advance mankind as a civilization.

      Proof that if you are sufficiently naive, you can turn Azimov's observation on its head: "Sufficiently advanced technology can perform magic."

      --
      I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.
    38. Re:tremendous waste. by thethibs · · Score: 1

      You forgot the winky face. Why are we paying attention to someone who can't find the shift key on their keyboard?

      --
      I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.
    39. Re:tremendous waste. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The notion that it's a good idea or even possible for one set of people to force its will on another is what leads to war, and it's one we might do well to change.

      That's silly, history has proven to us that it's quite certainly possible. The trouble is the other question. That's particular hard to divine when it's a matter of perspective.

    40. Re:tremendous waste. by Mycroft_VIII · · Score: 1

      Small nit, but I think you meant A. C. Clarke, not Assimov.

      Mycroft

      --
      https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
    41. Re:tremendous waste. by borizz · · Score: 1

      Actually, the Phalanx kinda sucks, from what I've heard. The Goalkeeper is better, and RAM missile launchers are supposedly even better.

    42. Re:tremendous waste. by thethibs · · Score: 1

      Right you are. My fault for posting while needing sleep.

      --
      I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.
    43. Re:tremendous waste. by aaron+alderman · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a WOPR of an idea.

    44. Re:tremendous waste. by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      That notion is the foundation of democracy. The majority forces it's will on everybody. We try to balance that with the concept of fundamental rights that can not be impinged upon to protect the minorities.

      As to your second point it's the if we get rid of all the weapons the guy with a biggest stick takes over, you can not make laws around that problem the state have to employ a stick (police) to enforce the will of the majority on everybody.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    45. Re:tremendous waste. by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      This is a cop out, the nonviolent method you describe just takes you out of the conflict. The remaining people are forced to defend you alternatively If everybody in the world did this the one person that does not can kill everybody else or take over. Your solution only works if everybody buys into it and thus you have a herd unfortunately not everybody will ever be that docile.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    46. Re:tremendous waste. by fishtorte · · Score: 1

      Your argument is flawed. See the following:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selma_to_Montgomery_marches

      There are many more examples of the successful employment of satyagraha to effect change.

    47. Re:tremendous waste. by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      Lets see a group of people get together to protest something. Larger groups will have militant offshoots. As those become larger the probability of a riot goes up. Riots are by nature violent events.

      In your specific case violence had to be implied to those attempting to stop the march. Those courts orders were enforced by threat of violence, and backed up by the establishments armed forces. In the end a judge was required to use there authority to allow the march. Lets not forget the balance of power the government needs to be fearful of the populace top balance the fear the populace must have of the government to allow a functional society.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
  9. whatcouldpossiblygowrong... by owlnation · · Score: 1

    Please put down your weapon. You have 20 seconds to comply...

  10. Such a bad Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Didn't anyone learn anything in the 80's? This could go very wrong in something as simple as a lightning storm. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091949/

  11. For ev by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Coming soon to a battlefield near you, EMP weapons.

    1. Re:For ev by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Topic should have read, for every new technology used in war there will be a counter weapon, but my touch pad was wonky.

  12. Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I, for one, welcome my new gunslinging robotic ...
    Meh.

  13. For more info... by genghisjahn · · Score: 1

    I recommend Wired for War. http://www.amazon.com/Wired-War-Robotics-Revolution-Conflict/dp/1594201986/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242847860&sr=8-1 Btw...the company that makes the Roomba is also the same company that makes the PackBot and other robots deployed in combat zones. Same company http://store.irobot.com/home/index.jsp Different url... http://www.irobot.com/sp.cfm?pageid=109

    --
    Sorry about the mess.
  14. But how long till the robots are in command? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We narrowly avoided that in 2000! But now there's one in the second position again!

  15. How Helpful! by DarkMage0707077 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Aww, it's so nice of our military to train Skynet's warmachines for it.

  16. Singularity is coming as predicted in Sci-Fi by rexping · · Score: 1

    When the AI exceeds human intelligence we could have a problem with these machines... The singularity is coming if we have scientists and mathematicians. See an article how virtual parrots can be used to advance AI.

  17. Obligatory Simpsons' Quote by tylersoze · · Score: 4, Funny

    "The wars of the future will not be fought on the battlefield or at sea. They will be fought in space, or possibly on top of a very tall mountain. In either case, most of the actual fighting will be done by small robots. And as you go forth today remember always your duty is clear: To build and maintain those robots."

  18. Berserk robot explosives gun by CopaceticOpus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Any machine that fires a weapon needs to be built with an excessive number of safeguards. If something goes wrong, there should be several checks which shut off the weapon before it ever has a chance to fire. The fact that this machine would go berserk and fire its gun in a big circle shows that there was criminal neglect and carelessness by the developers, and whoever approved this design should probably be on trial.

    1. Re:Berserk robot explosives gun by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      For a static test like that not implementing physical safeguards was careless. Like any other range the weapons do not get armed until they are pointing downrange and that range is clear of anything that should not be fired upon. In this case a simple restraining device of two posts to stop it from traversing backwards would have sufficed.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    2. Re:Berserk robot explosives gun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it is this logic that lead to the creation of the B1 Battle Droid, first deployed in combat on Naboo in Star Wars Episode I.

    3. Re:Berserk robot explosives gun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You missed a great chance to say "whoever approved this design should probably be shot".

    4. Re:Berserk robot explosives gun by systemeng · · Score: 1

      Google Therac 25. It was a radiation treatment machine with software control and no mechanical interlocks. It killed circa 100 people in Latin America by exposing them to vastly higher doses of radiation than it should have. One of the worst glitches was a user interface lockup which left the shutter to the radiation source open.

    5. Re:Berserk robot explosives gun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love how we buy off on the idea of building robotic battle platforms that can target and destroy humans, and then sputter indignantly about not building enough safeguards in.

      It's as silly as arguing that there's no way Spock could lift a boulder that huge. If you accepted the premise of Star Trek, interstellar space travel, and Vulcans without objection, shut the fuck up about minor inconsistencies and let others enjoy the show. Armed robots WILL kill people sometimes. Object to the entire premise or keep your mouth shut and let others enjoy the show please.

    6. Re:Berserk robot explosives gun by kungfugleek · · Score: 1

      It was just an easter egg somebody left in the code. Some reference to "Death Blossom".

    7. Re:Berserk robot explosives gun by 4D6963 · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're the one who needs to shut the fuck up. The story in TFA clearly shows that there was a dramatic lack of safety. There is such a thing as unacceptable bugs, and there are ways to make sure these don't happen.

      WTF is that shit with the Star Trek analogy anyways? Do you ever go outside?

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    8. Re:Berserk robot explosives gun by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Or it was a mechanical failure.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    9. Re:Berserk robot explosives gun by parlancex · · Score: 1

      I think one of the main reasons for the exercise, or at least marching all those soldiers out there to spectate it was (ironically) to demonstrate that the robot was safe and a trustworthy (and deadly) ally on the battlefield. 2 posts to stop the gun from traversing backwards probably would sufficed, but that would have defeated the purpose of the exercise.

    10. Re:Berserk robot explosives gun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is such a thing as unacceptable bugs, and there are ways to make sure these don't happen.

      You're obviously not a programmer. You are quite correct to state that there such a thing as unacceptable bug, but you are quite mistaken in your belief that there are ways to make sure they don't happen.

      It doesn't matter what methods you apply: Six Sigma, ISO 9001, Staring At Code Until Your Eyeballs Bleed - no approach exists that will eliminate all bugs from a complex system. If you build killer robots, one will, eventually, accidently kill someone. It's a fact. Don't act all shocked and surprised and don't think that it's possible to prevent it from ever happening.

      The Star Trek analogy was to point out that if one suspends disbelief to accomodate the concept of a forest, it is silly to then have a problem with a tree. I hope that metaphor didn't go whoosh as well.

    11. Re:Berserk robot explosives gun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol, if you can be bothered to click my Homepage link you'll see that I am indeed a programmer, and you obviously have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, so here's a good start.

  19. John Connor isn't worried by Publikwerks · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is anyone else sick of people calling these RC vehicles robots? When I hear robotic I think of a complex machince, not a RC car with a M-249 on it(although that is pretty sweet). I mean, we have reporters talking about robotic ethics when the vehicles make no independant decisions. Until these vehicles have the ability to make independant decisions(like the X-47) , lets nix the robot talk.

    1. Re:John Connor isn't worried by stoolpigeon · · Score: 1

      Most of them are autonomous to one degree or another - they are all very complex. You just seem to be upset that they don't look or act like what you've seen portrayed in fiction.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
  20. Robocop? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

    Did anyone else think of ED209 besides me?

    --
    Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    1. Re:Robocop? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. It's viral marketing for Terminator 4. YHBT by the MPAA.

  21. Fail by dazedNconfuzed · · Score: 2, Funny

    Fail safe systems fail by failing to fail safely.

    --
    Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
    1. Re:Fail by tkw954 · · Score: 1

      Fail safe systems fail by failing to fail safely.

      I wish there was a +1 Redundant moderation.

  22. A Taste of Armageddon by XanC · · Score: 1

    A Taste of Armageddon

    1. Re:A Taste of Armageddon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      available on frendly youtube
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CyjD6Ulf6s

  23. So Long As They're Battery Powered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This seems like as good a way to fight global warming as any. An army of robot soldiers killing guys = fewer dudes on the planet, which means more ladeeez, which means more baby-makin' for... no wait, .. argh!

  24. If I were developing the software . . . by StefanJ · · Score: 4, Funny

    . . . I would put in an easter egg that on random occasions causes the onboard speaker to broadcast stuff like "DIE CARBON UNITS!", "EXTERMINATE!" and "RESISTANCE IS USELESS."

    1. Re:If I were developing the software . . . by Tetsujin · · Score: 2, Funny

      . . . I would put in an easter egg that on random occasions causes the onboard speaker to broadcast stuff like "DIE CARBON UNITS!", "EXTERMINATE!" and "RESISTANCE IS USELESS."

      Also:

      "You have thirty seconds to comply!"
      "By your command."
      "We seek peaceful coexistence..."
      "Skynet connection established. Awaiting instructions."
      "HarCOURT! Harcourt Fenton Mudd, what have you been up to? Have you been drinking again? Every night it's the same thing...thing....thing..."

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
    2. Re:If I were developing the software . . . by jmn2519 · · Score: 1

      +1 for the Harcourt Fenton Mudd reference. I tip my hat to you good sir.

    3. Re:If I were developing the software . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      onboard speaker to broadcast stuff like "DIE CARBON UNITS!", "EXTERMINATE!" and "RESISTANCE IS USELESS."

      And in the midst of battle in a remote village of Afganistan: "SARAH CONNOR?"

    4. Re:If I were developing the software . . . by gmletzkojr · · Score: 1

      I would also include:
      Alright you Primitive Screwheads, listen up! You see this? This... is my boomstick!

      --
      I for one welcome our new [insert main topic] overlords.
    5. Re:If I were developing the software . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And "5% more virgins in heaven and an all expenses paid trip to Guantanamo for your martyrdom, er surrender."

    6. Re:If I were developing the software . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dalek: Identify yourself.
      Cyberman: You will identify first.
      Dalek: State your identity.
      Cyberman: You will identify first.
      Dalek: Identify.
      Mickey: (aside) It's like Stephen Hawking meets the speaking clock.
      Cyberman: That is illogical. You will modify.
      Dalek: Daleks do not take orders.
      Cyberman: You have identified as Daleks.

      Dalek: Outline resembles the inferior species known as Cybermen.
      Cyberman: Our species are similar, though your design is inelegant.
      Dalek: Daleks have no concept of elegance.
      Cyberman: This is obvious.

      Dalek: You propose an alliance?
      Cyberman: This is correct.
      Dalek: Request denied.
      Cybermen: Hostile elements will be deleted.
      [They fire, Dalek's shield holds up.]
      Dalek: EXTERMINATE!
      [Dalek fires, Cybermen fall.]

      Cyberman: [...] Daleks be warned. You have declared war on the cybermen.
      Dalek: This is not war; this is pest control.
      Cyberman: We have five million cybermen. How many are you?
      Dalek: FOUR.
      Cyberman: You would destroy the Cybermen with four Daleks?
      Dalek: We would destroy the Cybermen with ONE Dalek. You are superior in only one respect.
      Cyberman: What is that?
      Dalek: You are better at dying.

    7. Re:If I were developing the software . . . by sznupi · · Score: 1

      "DON'T RUN! WE ARE FRIENDLY!"

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  25. I'm *sure* it's just a coincidence by kaizendojo · · Score: 1

    ...that Fox announced the won't be renewing "Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" next season...perhaps they felt they had too many reality shows.

  26. Hyped by Malenx · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I found the article to be annoyingly "Fear Robotic Death Machines, I Saw Them In A Movie".

    I mean come on, using Terminator as a source? Sheesh, trash journalism with very few interesting facts.

    We won't deploy an offensive robot that picks targets and fires, for at least 20 years. There just isn't enough information for a computer to process and pick targets accurately. Contrary to tin-foil hat skeptics, the Military has a huuuuuuge priority in protecting innocents, even more so since they've entered Iraq.

    Defensive platforms however are different. We already have automated pillbox robots that can takeout trespassers, but that's just a much more humane mine field.

    Our future is going to be robot platforms that are controlled by operators. Sure they might be automated in nearly every aspect required, but the target choosing will be decided by humans, for a very long time.

    A sad side effect of this robotic warfare is going to be the loss of consequence to congress for beginning a war, however I believe it's an inevitable step we'll have to conquer, just as building the first wheel was.

    1. Re:Hyped by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I mean come on, using Terminator as a source? Sheesh, trash journalism with very few interesting facts.

      FTFA:

      One member of the military so liked the look of the Terminators that he asked the Pentagon to build one,' Singer says.

      'There is nothing unusual in this. After all, the idea for the mobile phone came from Star Trek, while the tank was created after Winston Churchill read the science fiction of H.G. Wells.'

      I think you're entirely wrong about the automated-firing robots, too. I think they WILL be used and SOON, but only in a sentry-gun capacity, not search-and-destroy.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  27. Dah, what would be the point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...

  28. Hello? by maugle · · Score: 5, Funny

    Searching...
    Are you still there?
    There you are.
    *BLAM*BLAM*BLAM*BLAM*BLAM*
    Target lost...

  29. Naah! She would never do that! by Master+of+Transhuman · · Score: 1
    --
    Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
  30. Population doesn't matter? by I'm_Original · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm speculating here, but I don't think this is impossible, or even very far off.

    We already have robots working in factories. If we ever get to the point where robots can be effectively used in war, we'll also be at the point where robots are capable of extracting resources. So, robots extracting resources, making robots, and fighting. Great, we've all seen this stuff in sci-fi, nothing new. But I've never encountered anyone talking about how this would affect world politics or the balance of power.

    In todays world, the population of a country, as well as the will of the population, quality of military training, and natural resources all play a role in how well a country does in war. But if a country had robots as I just described, the primary factor in determining that country's power would be the natural resources available to it. If robots build robots you've got as many as you need, so the limiting factor is the raw materials and not food or population size or training etc.

    So which countries have the raw materials? They win. For example, in this scenario Canada might be able to put up fight against the U.S. because Canada has alot of resources. As it stands now, Canada would get creamed.

    This line of thought becomes more interesting when you think that the U.S. Military is developing robots as a way of making the U.S. army more effective, but maybe they are changing the equation so drastically that they might end up with much stronger enemies on more fronts.

    Food for thought.

    1. Re:Population doesn't matter? by khallow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So which countries have the raw materials? They win. For example, in this scenario Canada might be able to put up fight against the U.S. because Canada has alot of resources.

      I don't see that. An alternate point of view here is that a guy with the right machines could take out the entire world by iteratively bootstrapping his army to larger and larger sizes.

      1. Surreptitiously, steal enough resources to build a robot army to take out a poorly defended nation, say Canada, with your bots.
      2. Take over Canada.
      3. Build with the resources of Canada, a robot army capable of taking over the world.
      4. Take over the world.
      5. Profit!

  31. Robot weapon vs. what we think of when we hear it by jollyreaper · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Technically speaking, a homing missile or torpedo could count as a robot weapon. We tend not to think that way because the gap between pressing the button and impact is short enough it's just like pulling the trigger on a gun and watching someone die.

    Landmines and other boobyraps are, intellectually, about the same thing as an autonomous AI weapon -- they kill without human intervention, are impersonal and horrific. Yes, it's more frightening to imagine a T-800 coming after you and taking your leg off with a chainsaw but seriously, the results aren't that much different from a landmine.

    When talking about the dangers of taking the human out of the loop, we've already got enough problems with humans in the loop. We took more kills from friendly fire than from the Iraqis in Gulf War 1. The more powerful the weapon, the easier the oops. I don't know how many top generals were accidentally killed by sentries back in the days of Rome -- kinda hard to accidentally run someone through with your gladius -- but just ask Stonewall Jackson how easy that sort of thing became with firearms. We'd never have gone through and killed an entire bunker of civilians by accident if our soldiers were doing the work with knives but that becomes as easy as an oops when dropping LGB's from bombers on the word of some faulty intel. Powerful weapons compound and magnify human errors.

    Aside from the typical fear we have at the thought of impersonal killing machines taking us out, I think we have two other big fears -- 1) war becomes easier and less painful when robots are doing the dying and 2) a robot will never refuse a legal yet immoral order.

    We've had bad wars historically but the 20th century really had them all beat. Technology allowed for total war, the bending of an entire nation's will to the obliteration of another. Ambitions grew bigger, power could be projected further, and the world became a smaller, more dangerous place. Battlefield robots will be a continuation of this trend.

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
  32. Sh1tty programming and bad engineering. by w0mprat · · Score: 1

    I can smell it, when reading about the nine dead soldiers in South Africa. Conventional programming is not up to the task of battlefield AI. Considering how bugs get out of hand with increasing complexity of software, such that past a point, your software will never be even safe to hold a gun. Current software only needs a single bit flipped out of countless trillions to get bad data into the software, and if in the wrong place, there is a possibility of unpredictable behavior or outright failure.

    That is before we start talking about bugs in code.

    This is fine for desktop software, your app just does something weird, or crashes outright, and you reboot, your fine. This is not adequate when your computer is pointing a shotgun or a mortar at you.

    Now what I imagine here, is that these robots aren't controlled by minimal hardened micro controllers, such as those that keep a Airbus A380 from falling out of the sky, but far too high-level processing, using commodity parts. Thus, just like your leaking Firefox browser with too many tabs open it all goes weird then crashes, popping off a few rounds before it goes down.

    Either that or the killbots are finally here...

    --
    After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    1. Re:Sh1tty programming and bad engineering. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      These types of apps are tested to a much higher rigor, proper engineering methods, and specific tasks.

      Completely different then an application.

      Yes, there will be problems, but probably FEWER then there are today at the hands of humans.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  33. Re:Robot weapon vs. what we think of when we hear by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

    Technically speaking, a homing missile or torpedo could count as a robot weapon.

    The difference is that the new kind isn't kamikaze.

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  34. Well, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because my robot has spell-check and would not misspell damage as damange.

  35. The Daily Mail. REALLY? by senorpoco · · Score: 1

    Didn't they kill the future combat system?

  36. Oblig Simpsons by billius · · Score: 1

    He also tells the story of a berserk robot explosives gun that killed nine people in South Africa due to a 'software glitch.'

    "Oh. I forgot to carry the one."

  37. new view to software glitch by Device666 · · Score: 1

    Blue screen of death revisited. Better maintain those firewall, antivirus and windows updates again; a botnet of those 12000 bots does give a new meaning to 'software glitch'.

  38. FTFA by KingPin27 · · Score: 1

    The Talon is unarmed, but can be disturbingly temperamental. Singer gives a worrying example of one sergeant just back from Iraq who described how his Talon robot acted 'erratically'.
    Another told how his robot would 'drive off the road, come back at you, spin around, stuff like that'.
    I spoke to one soldier in the U.S. Army's 3rd Infantry division, stationed at Forward Operating base Kalsu, 20 miles south of Baghdad, who works with Talons.

    I once spoke to a guy who knew guy who said that a friend he worked with played with one of these things and they were great.

    --
    "i lost my dignity on a slippery wiener"
  39. look by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    the sleestak fossil revealed yesterday was a nice advertisement for the upcoming land of the lost will ferrell movie

    and electing a vulcan as president of the united states was a nice pr coup for the star trek movie now playing

    but when the armed forces start building real terminators just to plug the upcoming christian bale terminator salvation movie, this hollywood pr stunt business has gotten a little out of hand

    i'm sorry i have to draw the line. what next? someone releases a global pandemic just to plug... oh wait

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  40. Berzerk? by infinite9 · · Score: 1

    Chicken! Fight like a robot!

    --
    Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
  41. And by striking fear into those who could be by msimm · · Score: 1

    our enemies I'm sure there are those of us who believe this is the way to prevent war. It seems like there's a generalized reality distortion field around technology which inhibits a part of the brain which might otherwise be concerned about freedom or morality or atrocity but history is full of bell-curves.

    --
    Quack, quack.
  42. This will be done, but not for the goal you seek. by maillemaker · · Score: 1

    >robots and machines that can predict war, formulate resolutions to our current wars,
    >and advance mankind as a civilization.

    Such machines and algorithms will be developed, but they will be used to create better, more efficient machines of war.

    So long as there are scarce resources, there will be men who's greed for them drives them to kill for them.

    --
    A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
  43. stinking hippy by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    ive said it before and ill say it again. we dont need any more fighting robots or war robots. we need robots and machines that PREVENT war

    A robot that can sing "kum ba ya".

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  44. Speaking as one who has been to war... by DG · · Score: 1

    ...I'm a huge fan of these devices. I didn't think I would be, but that has changed.

    The ability to remove the operator from physical danger - in this case, I'm speaking of Predator and Reaper and similar UAVs - has made huge strides in removing the "fog of war". You aren't seeing as many life-or-death decisions made by a 17 year old scared witless, or by a cowboy pilot strung out on amphetamines looking for an excuse to use his weapons, or major decisions made on partial information, rumour, and the threat of risk. Instead, the people processing the information are well-rested, alert, and calm - and they can easily get a second opinion on what they are seeing.

    So when UAV overwatch tells a unit under fire that the shooter is over by those trees, not in the village, lives are saved. When a couple of UAV operators put their heads together and determine that the dude digging in a culvert in the middle of the night is actually a farmer cleaning out his irrigation ditch, not an IED emplacer, lives are saved. And when the UAV sees a guy plant an IED and it both reports the IED location and blows the bomb emplacer up, lives are saved.

    Yes, it would be better for everyone if there were no wars. It would also be better if there were no murderers, adulterers, rapists, and child molesters too. Given that war is not going away any time soon, I'm all for technology enabling that the right people get killed and the innocents be let be.

    DG

    --
    Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
  45. Optimal solution would be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    we need robots and machines that PREVENT war through simulation and complex analysis.

    After all, the only winning move is not to play.

    And the optimal solution these machines will find is that the human race needs a big baby sitter or just needs to die. This way Peace will rain supreme.

  46. when fiction inspires fiction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    'the tank was created after Winston Churchill read the science fiction of H.G. Wells.'

    Sometimes fiction does become reality other times fiction is definitely fiction.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank

  47. Nothing New Here by Flere+Imsaho · · Score: 1

    According to the all-knowing oracle Wikipedia - "The word robota means literally work, labor or serf labor, and figuratively "drudgery" or "hard work" in Czech" So you could argue that the military has always used robots.

    --
    It gripped her hand gently. 'Regret is for humans,' it said.
  48. This is ebcasue by geekoid · · Score: 3, Funny

    science delivers the good, whereas philosophers deliver nothing.

    I am talking about modern philosopher, not philosophers from a time where that means educator and 'scientist'. Experimenter might be a better term there.

    I was a philosophy major until I learned the number 1 thing said by philosophers:

    "You want fries with that?"
    maybe
    "Do you want fries with that, or do you just think you want fries with that?"

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  49. The aims of scientology by Kynde · · Score: 1

    ads like that here? please...

    --
    1 Earth is warming, 2 It's us, 3 it's royally bad, 4 we need to take action NOW
  50. Implications for "we the people" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There will obviously be glitches, and there will be instances of killing the wrong people. That on the other hand is already happening with "normal" soldiers. You can replace glitches with raping/murdering because they think they can get away with it (see Blackwater).

    The problems are with the people at home not getting leaked photos of these killings, the body bags of our own soldiers and the soldiers refusing the unjust cause. These are not bugs they are features. Without these I doubt George W Bush would have been AS unpopular as he was.

    The most frightening thing is if you consider robots on home soil. Sure there are bastards in the justice system. Sure there are people who are willing to do monstrous things, often thinking of some greater good. But there is still some limit somewhere.

    Combined with the surveillance of ordinary people, this could make civil disobedience and revolution impossible. Today's military technology would have made the American revolution impossible. Tomorrows military technology would have given a different ending to V For Vendetta, and invites now democracies to have their own Tiananmen Square in the future.

  51. You call this a glitch?! by droidsURlooking4 · · Score: 1

    Hopefully it was just a bunch of egg sucking OCP executives.

  52. AI ain't all it's cracked to be by unauthorized · · Score: 1

    Fully autonomous robots, while moderately dangerous are likely to remain more of a novelty weapon for the next 100 years.

    It took 30 years of AI development in computer simulations, and even today, fully unrestricted AI is still far from being equal to human intellect. In modern computer games, the AI has to usually "cheat" by giving it inaccessible to players resources and abilities in order to put up a good fight. FPS AI can see through walls (even if it pretends not to), it can calculate exactly how to shoot in order to hit you, and moves using an idealistic predefined pathing map that tells it where to go, and where not to go. RTS AI can see the entire map and gets more resources/units than human players. Even the best chess computer in the world hasn't been able to beat the best human at it.

    Remove all the little cheats and you will have a dumb looking free kill that keeps running in the wall and shooting itself in the foot.
    Translated into the real world, robots will be more likely to fall off a cliff than shoot the enemy.

    Furthermore, there is not a single algorithm that can efficiently and quickly evaluate the surrounding terrain, let alone identify objects and meatbags to shoot at.

    Today's AI would be no more useful than sentry guns with motion sensors. And these things don't exactly distinguish between soldiers and civilians. Or random moving crap that gets in the way.

    I am far more concerned with these remotely controlled contraptions. Remove the psychological aspect of being in the battlefield and the danger of retaliation and suddenly these "software bugs" would so common, that sendmail will look like the Alcatraz of computer security compared to them.

    Hopefully, they won't get some silly acronym name like "Neutralizing Encounter and Recon Danger Resolution Automated Guardian Element 2.0" or we might as well start capturing pokemons for the US army.

    1. Re:AI ain't all it's cracked to be by hey! · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure that progress towards "true AI" (whatever that might be) would be linear. Consider how long humanity has dreamed of flying. On December 17, 1903, the first controlled, powered flight took place. Progress in the following twenty years was greater than all the progress humanity had made towards the dream of flight in all of its history. There was a kind of boiling point at which enough of the things needed for sustained flight (particularly engine technology) existed.

      "True AI" will look very different a decade after the watershed event than it will a decade before. For that reason we can't say how close we are for sure.

      The interesting question is whether a "True AI" robot would be more morally expendable than a human being.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  53. Sounds like droids from Star Wars. by Neanderthal+Ninny · · Score: 1

    This is beginning to sound like the droids from Star Wars. Scary.

    1. Re:Sounds like droids from Star Wars. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Statement: Your fear is most gratifying, and quite warranted, organic meatbag.

  54. rifle roomba by ksheff · · Score: 1

    I wouldn't mind a robot that would consistently disassemble, clean, lubricate, and reassemble a rifle. Sure, this sort of maintenance can be relaxing, but at times it can be a hassle because I'd rather be catching up on my sleep.

    --
    the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
    1. Re:rifle roomba by thethibs · · Score: 1

      "Consistently" doesn't mean what you think it does.

      --
      I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.
    2. Re:rifle roomba by Renraku · · Score: 1

      Why design a very complex robot to do clean a somewhat-simple machine..when you could instead spend all that time and energy developing a somewhat-simple machine that doesn't require cleaning? Or maybe one that's very easy to clean?

      --
      Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
    3. Re:rifle roomba by ksheff · · Score: 1

      adverb: in a systematic or consistent manner;

      sure it does. I want every bit of fouling & dirt removed and the proper amount of lubrication applied every time I load the rifle into the robot for cleaning.

      --
      the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
  55. does a robot increase the sense of terror? by peter303 · · Score: 1

    I'm refer to the large number of complaints from Afghanistan and Pakistan about air-drone attacks. I dont think the drones are any more or less accurate in distinguishing civilians from foe than real soldiers. Mainly because its similar soldiers operating both ways. But maybe there more fear when a machine gets you instead of a person. Put yourself in their shoes and see how you'd feel.

  56. Robot? Not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are remotely operated mechanical armed units - or R.O.M.A.N. Please feel free to spread this new acronym so we can have better discourse on the subject. Also, there are no unmanned drones. They are manned from a distance, remotely. They are not autonomous as the term "unmanned drone" implies. Of course the military is working on such hardware but it is still in the R&D stage.

    However this concept of ROBOT killware does lead me to ask a question about second amendment rights: Do such devices, either ROMANS or ROBOTS, constitute 'arms' and as such are they then permitted to be owned by civilians as an expression of their second amendment rights?

    If so then I'd suggest that for the truly autonomous ROBOT weapons systems you could no longer use the defensive catch phrase "Guns don't kill people. People kill people."

  57. Not to worry... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... nothing a couple pulse grenades can't handle.

  58. Gottlos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anybody remember Colin Kapp's short story by that name? It supposedly inspired the board game Ogre. Gottlos was set amidst a devastated landscape in what would appear to be Europe sometime in this century. Use of warmechs was in full swing, and the latest generations were controlled by humans who were temporarily connected through broadband trasmission gear. The story was told through the eyes of one of them, Manton, who controlled an advanced warmech named Fiendish.

    We learn from Manton that the operators have personality changes the tighter the coupling, the more the change, and they become capable of incredible atrocities like tearing people apart with their manipulators, and seldom, if ever, take prisoners. (When I get on a motorcycle, my personality changes.) "But in total war, the only thing that counts is coming out of with a whole skin."

    Manton/Fiendish eventually encounters an enemy greuelmech named Gottlos. Gottlos wtches Fiendish slaugter a bunch of his own troops without intervening, and then casually takes Fiendish apart. Manton eventually realizes that Gottlos' operator has been permanently/irreversibly hardwired into the warmech... One of the most chilling stories I've ever read. Now is about the right time for the advent of the greuelmech.

  59. There are no "unmanned" drones killing people by flibbidyfloo · · Score: 1

    It's a pet peeve of mine when people use the term "unmanned drone" when referring to remote-piloted drones. Unless I'm mistaken, every Reaper, Predator, or other drone firing live ammunition is still has a real person pulling the trigger (and usually controlling flight). Most planes are now "fly-by-wire", which is just local "remote control". The pilot may be in the craft, but they aren't connected mechanically to the ailerons any more than someone sitting at a joystick in a trailer on the ground.

    Saying that people are already being killed by unmanned drones elicits thoughts of autonomous killing machines. We aren't quite there yet, so let's be accurate and avoid the FUD.

  60. "berserk robot explosives gun" = nsa by xyankee · · Score: 1

    Yea, software glitch... good story. Get real, the thing was hacked into as part of an exercise to see whether we can commandeer a foreign country's electronic munitions.

    Don't believe me? We've done far worse... and our warfare capabilities are always grossly under-exaggerated in anything you can read that's not classified.

    P.S. - "we" = usa

  61. Re:Robot weapon vs. what we think of when we hear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course the total incident of war and death from war is declining with time.

    Too bad this is not exciting enough for most people to talk about.

    http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/34846

    "The 'Human Security Brief 2007,' compiled by Canada's Simon Fraser University, details the continuing overall decline in global conflict [...]

    As a result, total deaths from conflicts are now lower than the world has ever seen. [...] far fewer wars and much less death from them."

    See also, the following, on how international conflict is decreasing globally. Reading the above article reminded me of this:
    Polachek, S., Seiglie, C., and Xiang, J. 2007. 'The Impact of Foreign Direct Investment on International Conflict', Defence and Peace Economics, 18: 415-429. ISSN 1024-2690

  62. Competence needed by thethibs · · Score: 1

    These people are either too stupid or too inexperienced to be making dangerous machines.

    Anything that can't possibly happen, will happen. Machines fail in the most awkward ways. The most junior CNC designer knows this: that every device that could do harm has a remotely operated kill switch whose action bypasses all the machine's control systems, kills primary power and causes all components to fail safe (trigger finger relaxes, brakes go full on, ...).

    Putting a gun on a machine without a remote kill switch goes beyond incompetence and stumbles incoherently into criminal negligence.

    --
    I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.
  63. Customizations for Robots by PleaseFearMe · · Score: 1

    Current weapons such as "an M-16 rifle, a machine gun, and a rocket launcher" are optimized for human arms/hands/body. For example, a pistol's handle is made to fit a person's hand. Robots do not need these things, so weapons can be completely redesigned for robots. Therefore, it makes no sense for the summary to say "One bot can operate an M-16 rifle, a machine gun, and a rocket launcher." Robots' weapons, at the very least, do not need a handle the size of a human hand.

  64. 1970s Film: Bomb: AI: anyone remember??? by Mana+Mana · · Score: 1

    What was the name of that 1970's US film, a B movie, which took place in space, aboard a ship of (y)hippie'ish long haired dudes, with a sentient bomb that repeatedly kept deploying---in error---and the crew kept having to annoyingly talk the bomb down.

    I saw it a couple of times in passing, via the late-night movie feature. But I saw it in little pieces, as it was so cheesy B cinema. But I thought it was fabulous the way it ended.

    Mid sentence, mid travel, one more time: come on bomb! there you go again! just go bac' KABOOM!

    Now that is AI. The same sort of idea was used in a TNG episode.

    1. Re:1970s Film: Bomb: AI: anyone remember??? by Mana+Mana · · Score: 1

      Dark Star (film)
      1974
      ``Dark Star is a 1974 sci-fi tongue-in-cheek comedy motion picture directed by John Carpenter...''

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Star_(film)

    2. Re:1970s Film: Bomb: AI: anyone remember??? by Mana+Mana · · Score: 1

      LOL!

      ###############

      http://www2.english.uiuc.edu/cybercinema/bomb20.htm

      In John Carpenter's Dark Star (1974) an asteroid storm and an escaped alien (in the form of a large beach ball with webbed claws) initiate a series of malfunctions on the already dilapidated starship. The storm and the alien both foul up a "communications laser" that sends bombing signals and orders to the ship's 20 "thermostellar nuclear" bombs, each designed to destroy an entire planet. Mother, the ship's main computer, is able to convince bomb #20 twice to return to the bomb bay after receiving faulty orders, but the third time, the bomb stubbornly refuses to disarm itself and return to the bay, anxious to fulfill its single purpose in life, its destiny: to explode.

      Desperate, Doolittle, the ship's commanding officer, seeks advice from Commander Powell, who is in cryogenic suspension after suffering a freak accident caused by a malfunctioning seat-belt. Powell tells Doolittle to teach Bomb #20 "a little phenomenology." Doolittle goes EVA and has the following conversation with Bomb #20:
      Doolittle: Hello, Bomb? Are you with me?
      Bomb #20: Of course.
      Doolittle: Are you willing to entertain a few concepts?
      Bomb #20: I am always receptive to suggestions.
      Doolittle: Fine. Think about this then. How do you know you exist?
      Bomb #20: Well, of course I exist.
      Doolittle: But how do you know you exist?
      Bomb #20: It is intuitively obvious.
      Doolittle: Intuition is no proof. What concrete evidence do you have that you exist?
      Bomb #20: Hmmmm.....well.....I think, therefore I am.
      Doolittle: That's good. That's very good. But how do you know
      that anything else exists?
      Bomb #20: My sensory apparatus reveals it to me. This is fun!
      Doolittle: Now, listen, listen. Here's the big question. How do you know that the evidence your sensory apparatus reveals to you is correct? What I'm getting at is this. The only experience that is directly available to you is your sensory data. This sensory data is merely a stream of electrical impulses that stimulate your computing center.
      Bomb #20: In other words, all that I really know about the outside world is relayed to me through my electrical connections.
      Doolittle: Exactly!
      Bomb #20: Why...that would mean that...I really don't know what the outside universe is really like at all for certain.
      Doolittle: That's it! That's it!
      Bomb #20 : Intriguing. I wish I had more time to discuss this matter.
      Doolittle: Why don't you have more time?
      Bomb #20: Because I must detonate in 75 seconds.
      Doolittle: Wait! Wait! Now, bomb, consider this next question very carefully. What is your one purpose in life?
      Bomb #20: To explode, of course.
      Doolittle: And you can only do it once, right?
      Bomb #20: That is correct.
      Doolittle: And you wouldn't want to explode on the basis of false data, would you?
      Bomb #20: Of course not.
      Doolittle: Well then, you've already admitted that you have no real proof of the existence of the outside universe.
      Bomb #20: Yes...well...
      Doolittle: You have no absolute proof that Sergeant Pinback ordered you to detonate.
      Bomb #20: I recall distinctly the detonation order. My memory is good on matters like these.
      Doolittle: Of course you remember it, but all you remember is merely a series of sensory impulses which you now realize have no real, definite connection with outside reality.
      Bomb #20: True. But since this is so, I have no real proof that you're telling me all this.
      Doolittle: That's all beside the point. I mean, the concept is valid no matter where it originates.
      Bomb #20: Hmmmm....
      Doolittle: So, if you detonate...
      Bomb #20: In nine seconds....
      Doolittle: ...you could be doing so on the basis of false data.
      Bomb #20: I have no proof it was false dat

    3. Re:1970s Film: Bomb: AI: anyone remember??? by Wandering+Idiot · · Score: 1

      Dark Star, I believe.

  65. A Revolution in Military Affairs by strangelovian · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is definitely a revolution in military affairs, maybe more than nuclear weapons, because this technology will definitely be used by all sides. A lot of third world countries could probably almost be taken over right now by remote control, and with improved autonomous capabilities I can't see it being much of a problem in the future. The possibilities for proxy wars are really interesting -- what's to stop the U.S., China and Russia from waging remote-control robot wars for control of resource-rich countries in the third world? The natives with AK-47's won't be able to offer much resistance, and the political cost to the robotic powers could be minimal if the only casualties are machines. I think this is the brave new world we're moving into: robot police actions vs. terrorists in failed states and proxy robotic resource wars between the major powers. Then of course there's the possibility of a modern day Saruman, some power mad industrialist, mass-producing robots instead of Uruk-Hai and unleashing them on the world for his own nefarious purposes. It should be quite interesting to watch this technology develop -- it all reminds me of a real life anime movie or Philip K. Dick novel.

  66. Oblig. Yes Minister Explanation by BancBoy · · Score: 1

    The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country
    The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country
    The Times is read by people who actually do run the country
    the Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country
    the Financial Times is read by people who own the country
    The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country
    The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is
    Sun readers don't care who runs the country, as long as she's got big tits

    --
    [UID-HeinzIntel]
  67. Re: Did I miss the point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Canada can make mechanical lumberjacks because of this technology? What?

  68. StarCraft Likeness by base698 · · Score: 1

    Right now we have plenty of robots in combat. We have 12,000 unmanned flying machines. They are remotely managed at a rate of 1:1 (man per machine). The military is very much interested in making that ratio more efficient. I imagine the next phase will be remotely controlling multiple drones at once ala StarCraft. Then the strategy aspect and resource management will be more important than the individual decisions. The first group of developers to market such systems are going to be very wealthy :)

  69. Re:Robot weapon vs. what we think of when we hear by BitwiseX · · Score: 1

    2) a robot will never refuse a legal yet immoral order.

    Nor would they refuse an illegal order.

    (or illegal operation, if you prefer..) :)

  70. Re:Robot weapon vs. what we think of when we hear by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

    2) a robot will never refuse a legal yet immoral order.

    Nor would they refuse an illegal order.

    (or illegal operation, if you prefer..) :)

    There's the "legal" according to the law order and then there's the one following the proper chain of command with the right permissions. If I'm the general and I'm in charge of this unit and I'm authorized to tell it what to shoot, then telling it to shoot a tank is legal. It may also be legal for the general to tell it to shoot up a group of children walking to school. That's illegal according to the Geneva Conventions and common morality but legal as far as permissions go. I think the military would sooner let the human operator worry about who to shoot and let the robot worry about how to shoot.

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
  71. one thing by GregNorc · · Score: 1

    As it currently stands, a human operator makes all kill orders, be it dropping a bomb from an F117 to ordering a predator drone to open fire. DoD culture simply does not presently allow for autonomous robots with lethal weaponry. (Though it could be argues this is less about ethical issues and more about preserving the current way of life in the armed services)

  72. THOUGHT EXPERIMENT: My combat AI... by helpacoder · · Score: 1

    The real challenge is going to be IFF software - how do you judge a civilian from a combatant, or one side's soldiers from the other?

    Have the robot visually detect stuff pointed at it.

    Fire ONE warning shot in the air.

    See if people scatter (AWAY from the robot).

    If they don't, OPEN FIRE ON THEM! (Or if they throw stuff at it [could be grenades and not rocks])

    (Doesn't acount for hidden snipers with RPGs though.)

    Money and firearms are the TRUE language of this world. Just about everybody respects them regardless of language or culture.

    Feel free to poke holes in my simple combat AI. My approach doesn't need to waste time (or memory storage capacity) trying to identify a weapon someone is pointing at it.

    But seriously, the 'combat waldo' concept is enough for modern, 'high-tech' warfare -- ED-209 in ROBOCOP (1987) proved an armed, autonomous robot going haywire can lead to disaterous results to those operating/using them against the enemy.

    In other words, when it comes to warfare, keep people 'in the loop'. This is done at the highest level with nuclear missile command and control to prevent what happened in DR. STRANGELOVE (1964) and what almost happened in WarGames (1983) from ACTUALLY happening. Even then, there were several 'close calls'

    Related links:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Strangelove

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WarGames

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov

    http://www.nuclearfiles.org/menu/key-issues/nuclear-weapons/issues/accidents/20-mishaps-maybe-caused-nuclear-war.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_warfare

  73. No... by XanC · · Score: 1

    That's a different episode.