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Palm Kills Community Before It Begins

Former Fan of Palm writes to tell us that an enthusiastic, supportive developer community has fallen victim to corporate ineptitude once again. The preDevCamp started as a community-driven effort designed to mirror the iPhoneDevCamp based on the new "Pre" product announced by Palm. Unfortunately, suspicion and legal posturing seems to have gutted the founders of any and all enthusiasm they may have once had. When will corporations realize that community support is the best way to drive success? "As a corporation, I acknowledge that Palm's only responsibility is to its shareholders. There's nothing self serving or evil about that; it's how things work in big business. However there are many keen and willing developers out there, who have been waiting for the arrival of WebOS. A development platform is only a success if it is broadly adopted. Instead of embracing the grassroots upswell of interest in WebOS that preDevCamp fostered, Palm seem to be, at best, oblivious and, at worst, disdainful of the enthusiasm and good will engendered by these folk. I think they are missing a real opportunity to be involved in and to help generate the growth of a vital community."

247 comments

  1. Hah! by Jaysyn · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well, this is certainly an interesting article to be reading as I am looking for a replacement for my aging Tungsten E.

    Guess who I probably won't be going with this time?!

    --
    There is a war going on for your mind.
    1. Re:Hah! by bigman2003 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Windows Mobile?

      When it comes down to it...like it or not...Windows Mobile is the most open phone OS.

      They are the most supportive for developers. No roadblocks, nothing. I can write a program today, and distribute it over the web without any problems.

      Every part of the Phone OS is open to me. My carrier cannot block a single thing from running on my phone.

      --
      No reason to lie.
    2. Re:Hah! by bigman2003 · · Score: 1

      Just a little more-

      Windows Mobile 6.5 has been widely available for a while, and Microsoft hasn't raised a fuss. Apps were ripped from it (Facebook for instance) to run on previous versions...and Microsoft actually supported it!

      --
      No reason to lie.
    3. Re:Hah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      bullshit.
      android followed closely by symbian OS is the most open there is.
      carriers regularly block GPS capability on windows mobile phones.

    4. Re:Hah! by bigman2003 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Honestly...I completely forgot about Android.

      But I have had quite a bit of trouble with Symbian, much less so with Windows Mobile.

      --
      No reason to lie.
    5. Re:Hah! by tcolberg · · Score: 1

      I'm also waiting for a replacement for my Tungsten T3 which practically crippled. A lot of Palm's success in the past was due to the app community, so I'm hoping that they will leverage that with the Pre. If this doesn't cover what I'm looking for, I might have to move on to Android.

    6. Re:Hah! by COMON$ · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Palm, while once a great device is just another example of a corporation who should have been unstoppable, makes a crapload of stupid mistakes, doesn't learn from them, then keeps hoping that their lack of innovation will drive them forward. iPod, iPhone, RIM, and the slew of windows devices should never have had a chance if Palm would have been at least a little adventurous.

      --
      CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
    7. Re:Hah! by rolfwind · · Score: 3, Funny

      When it comes down to it...like it or not...Windows Mobile is the most open phone OS.

      If, by open, do you mean in the same fashion as goatse? If it's anything like it's parent OS, I'll have to agree;)

    8. Re:Hah! by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 1

      Guess who I probably won't be going with this time?!

      A corporation that manufactures and sells anything? Because most of them would have done the same. Especially the one Palm is competing with.

    9. Re:Hah! by ViennaSt · · Score: 1, Interesting

      What's worse...if you look up on Palm's career page and do a keyword search for "developer" jobs or "WebOS" jobs...

      http://www.palm.com/us/company/careers.html

      There are zero job openings anywhere in the US. Looks like they don't want/need any help developing their products, grassroots or in their company.

      --
      "Engineering. Where the noble, semi-skilled laborers execute the vision of those who think and dream." -Sheldon
    10. Re:Hah! by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Informative

      Why?
      Really all that happened is these guys talked to Palm about setting this up, signed and NDA, got a meeting set up, then some yo yo tweeted about it and probably violated the NDA.
      So the meeting got canceled.
      No take down notice or anything like that. Now they are all upset and posting about how unfair this is and Slashdot picks it up and runs with it.
      Well just what are you going to replace your Tungsten E with then?
      Windows Mobil, iPhone, S60 maybe?
      Good grief folks get some perspective. Palm my end up sucking but the Pre may be great. Seems way out of line to get bent before the phone is even out yet.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    11. Re:Hah! by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Yet.

      Microsoft is working hard to make a iPhone app model that they can get their cut of each app.

      It's open now, it will NOT be in 2 years. They cant ignore the big fat gigantic cash cow that Apple created by locking down the apps like they have.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    12. Re:Hah! by LWATCDR · · Score: 2, Interesting

      For now.
      I wonder how long that will last. Microsoft copies all things Apple. My bet it will be just a matter of time before it puts in an AppStore and locks things down.
      Microsoft has never seen a revenue stream it didn't love.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    13. Re:Hah! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just look at what they did with the Treo. Rather than holding on to their strengths (handwriting, high-resolution screen, existing apps) and just adding a phone, they threw all those things away in order to try to compete with Blackberry and Nokia: They made the screen smaller, added that shitty little chiclet keyboard, removed the handwriting recognition, and a lot of existing apps would not work (or work well anyway) on the Treo.

      What a tragedy. The iPhone is what the Palm should have been 4 or even 5 years ago.

    14. Re:Hah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blocking GPS has nothing to do with the operating system, they just don't provide drivers. If I gave you the world's fastest most super duper video card and you couldn't use it in Windows, its not the fault of Windows, its because I didn't give you drivers.

    15. Re:Hah! by crabboy.com · · Score: 5, Funny

      Honestly...I completely forgot about Android.

      .

      It takes a big man to admit his mistake.

      --
      The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money
    16. Re:Hah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Symbian is trying to become open due to competition (a year ago, the pro version of Carbide would cost you more than $1000 - just to get the ability to debug on the phone), yet there is still all that signature crap. Moreover, have you tried programming for Symbian? I wouldn't call the experience pleasant (plus every major OS version tends to be incompatible with the previous, I need a SIGNIFICANTLY different codebase to run on OS 9 devices than for the OS 8 devices).

    17. Re:Hah! by Maarek+Stele · · Score: 2, Informative

      bullshit.
      android followed closely by symbian OS is the most open there is.
      carriers regularly block GPS capability on windows mobile phones.

      that's carrier specific, like Verizon. You can use everything in AT&T so I don't have a problem either with creating apps.

      --
      "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
    18. Re:Hah! by speculatrix · · Score: 3, Funny

      It takes a big man to admit his mistake. and a bigger man to make him admit it

    19. Re:Hah! by nilbog · · Score: 2

      Mod parent up. It's not the OS's fault. It's carrier - induced BS. As delivered, Windows Mobile is an extremely open OS that follow the development ethics of the desktop.

      It's the equivalent of Dell shipping PCs with custom XP installs that don't allow USB drives or something. Not Microsoft's fault.

      Personally, I believe this is due more to stupidity than altruism on Microsoft's part, but it's better for the community. A modified Hanlon's razor perhaps applies?

      P.S. I'm no Windows Mobile fanboy, but I do own a WM phone for this reason.

      --
      or else!
    20. Re:Hah! by ZorinLynx · · Score: 1

      Why would anyone want handwriting recognition? I can type, even on a chiclet keyboard, several times faster than I can write.

      Handwriting recognition is a gimmick. Give me a real keyboard anyway. Heck even the iPhone's virtual keyboard is better than handwriting recognition!

    21. Re:Hah! by afxgrin · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ummm - They're absolutely hiring in Sunnyvale...

      "Software Development Internship" 2/19/2009

      "Build & Release Engineer" 5/09/2009

      "Kernel Team Manager" 4/20/2009

      "RF Software Engineer" 4/22/2009

      "Senior Engineer - Multimedia Software" 4/28/2009

      " Senior Kernel Engineer" 5/08/2009 and 5/19/2009

      "Sr. Engineer - SW Dev" X3

      "Sr. CDMA Driver Engineer"

      "Sr Software Applications Engineer"

      "Software Engineer"

      "Sr. IS Engineer â" IT Web Applications"

      "Sr. Software Engineer - Drivers"

      Clearly you didn't try very hard. Obviously if you're straight out of college, there's not much, but it honestly seems every company is like this ... All major corps always have senior positions available, all the time.

    22. Re:Hah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Actually, wouldn't the most open be Open Moko? www.openmoko.org?

    23. Re:Hah! by ViennaSt · · Score: 1

      Why doesn't it come up on their Career page when you select any USA region? Even selecting "Engineering" and all OTHER (non Sunnyvale) locations doesn't come up with any results. They obviously better web developers.

      --
      "Engineering. Where the noble, semi-skilled laborers execute the vision of those who think and dream." -Sheldon
    24. Re:Hah! by Big+Boss · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree. What I really want is the bastard child of an iPhone and a Blackberry. The iPhone UI, with a real keyboard... oh wait, the G1 is damn close to that. Just wish it was a little more polished. Say what you like about Apple, they are very good at UI. Hopefully Google makes some improvements there. If I had the $, I'd probably buy the developer version of the G1.

    25. Re:Hah! by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 3, Insightful

      All major corps always have senior positions available, all the time.

      They have open reqs, but trust me they aren't exactly filling them. A lot of companies with branch offices keep reqs open just to determine interest by area. Others have reqs open in the hopes that an applicant from a competitor will apply (i.e. pretrained for a specific job, knowledgable about tools and processes used elsewhere, and potentially a bit of a sting when you steal him).

      If you send your resume around to some of these places, no matter how well qualified, you never hear back.

      It feels like a scam some days.

    26. Re:Hah! by Sancho · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly. And that's exactly how MS got their desktop monopoly.

      Piracy was rampant in the 80s and 90s. DOS and Windows disks were passed around like the town bicycle, along with CD keys. If a really big shop was caught selling pirated copies of their software, there might be a fuss, but casual copying and even smaller businesses buying one copy and pre-installing it on all of their machines was pretty much overlooked.

      A lot of people have theorized that Microsoft allowed this to go on to gain marketshare. It's better to have your OS pirated and installed on a machine than for your competitors to make a sale, in the long run. There's always time to lock everything down once you've gotten the monopoly.

    27. Re:Hah! by Glendale2x · · Score: 1

      No kidding. I use my WM based Treo for SSH a lot and handwriting recognition would be completely retarded.

      As an aside, I've tried lots of phones and I tend to like the Treo form factor the best because it's really easy to use one-handed. With a little practice I can operate my Treo without looking at it. Although I'm sure I'm the fringe minority of people who wants a quick access SSH terminal in my pocket.

      --
      this is my sig
    28. Re:Hah! by JO_DIE_THE_STAR_F*** · · Score: 1

      Gio sent out a tweet simply stating that we had a meeting and it was under an NDA,

      He just tweeted saying there was a meeting but they could not discuss it. Why cancel a meeting over that.
      Unless of course the first rule of the NDA is that you don't talk about the NDA.

    29. Re:Hah! by KlaymenDK · · Score: 1

      Well, this is certainly an interesting article to be reading as I am looking for a replacement for my aging Tungsten E.

      Guess who I probably won't be going with this time?!

      I hear you. I'm currently suffering withdrawal pains after having replaced my (beloved) T3's with a relatively crummy-but-connected Treo 680. But I'm not blind, I can see which way the Palm (pre-Pre) community is headed.

      What are you considering, then, if not Palm?

      I'm looking for a pda-cum-phone that I can write my own apps for as easily and freely as I can for the PalmOS. Apple is right out, with its expensive gear and dev's license, opaque validation process, and MacOS-bound dev suite.

      And don't talk to me about Windows. I don't even run the stuff on my pc. Enough said.

      Right now I'm looking at the Nokia N9x line, looking for some insight into the upcoming N97. I've played a bit with the N96 (I think it was), and the handwriting recognition is just crummy (confined to a small corner window, for one thing). At least it seems there's some dev suite choices, but I haven't figured out their licensing/cert/id/key/whatever system yet.

      But you gotta go somewhere. So, what's your current best candidate?

    30. Re:Hah! by KlaymenDK · · Score: 1

      I agree with your points -- except that the Treos *are* capable of handwriting recognition. My 680 even runs it fullscreen, thanks to TealScript, so I don't have to use that crummy li'l slippery-keyed keyboard.

      My 680 replaced my oh-so-nice T3's because I needed to be connected; the 680's have the biggest screens of what can still be found (used, natch).

    31. Re:Hah! by i.of.the.storm · · Score: 1

      Meh, the G1 doesn't let you flash your own OS onto it by default, unless you hack it. And Android doesn't let you run native programs by default either, only ones running on the Dalvik VM. I hardly consider that open. Just because it runs Linux as its kernel doesn't make it inherently open. At the same time, it's light-years ahead of the iPhone OS, but I would still consider it behind WinMo. But I think I'll skip the whole smartphone problem and just get a Pandora, and do whatever the hell I want with it.

      --
      All your base are belong to Wii.
    32. Re:Hah! by Dark_Gravity · · Score: 0, Troll

      ...Windows Mobile is an extremely open OS...

      You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    33. Re:Hah! by Toonol · · Score: 1

      Well, then it's a pity that Palm hasn't learned anything from Microsoft.

    34. Re:Hah! by Lally+Singh · · Score: 1

      Nope, openmoko.

      --
      Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
    35. Re:Hah! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not so. After a bit of practice, I could write on my Palm much faster than I could use those little keyboards. Your mileage may vary, but it certainly worked for me.

      But more to the point, Palm also had a virtual, on-screen keyboard, much like the one on the iPhone. What's wrong with that? People like it just fine on the iPhone.

      Regardless, my point was: the Palm was not designed to be another Blackberry. If you like the little keyboards, you could always get a Blackberry. But instead, rather than competing on their strong points (or the things that set them apart from the competition), they built a Blackberry clone. That was a stupid thing to do. They alienated the loyal Palm users, and did not draw the Blackberry users. So they got the worst of both worlds.

    36. Re:Hah! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      I do not agree that it was a gimmick. The handwriting, for me, was much faster than a keyboard. Of course it did take some practice to get it right, and a lot of people did not want to bother to take the time.

      But it also had the virtual keyboard, much like the iPhone has now.

    37. Re:Hah! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      The original Treos did not have handwriting recognition. Later a hack was released into the wild that put the handwriting back in, and Palm realized their mistake on later models. But it was a bit too late for their bottom line, I think.

      Also, IMO the keyboard takes up too much space, so the Treo had an even smaller screen than, say, the Tungsten. And that was my point... the screen real-estate, plethora of available apps (many of them free) were among the strongest features of Palms... and Palm threw them away. Originally.

    38. Re:Hah! by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      bullshit. a carrier can only block anything in windows mobile if you are too stupid to press the soft reset button once just before the carrier customisation installation is started. windows mobile even clearly gives you three seconds of forewarning to do this.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    39. Re:Hah! by markkezner · · Score: 1

      Meh, the G1 doesn't let you flash your own OS onto it by default, unless you hack it.

      True, but this doesn't have anything to do with the OS, only the phone. The Android Dev Phone 1, by comparison, lets you flash an unsigned image.

      This is a carrier problem, which has reared its ugly head on most platforms in one way or another.

      --
      Dangerous, sexy, turing complete: Femme Bots
    40. Re:Hah! by ZorinLynx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If we were in the same room I would challenge both you and the previous respondant to a duel to see who can enter something faster, either me typing or you writing.

      I can be certain I will win. Using two thumbs I can typically be ready to press the next key right as I finish entering the current one.

      I just don't see how it's physically possible to graffiti faster than typing. I will be very impressed by anyone who proves me wrong!

    41. Re:Hah! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      The handwriting worked for me faster than a chiclet QWERTY keyboard. I really don't care how it worked for you.

    42. Re:Hah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a "locked down appstore" coming from Microsoft. The difference is that you are not forced to use it. (Browse with your WM phone to http://client.marketplace.windowsmobile.com/).

    43. Re:Hah! by StuartHankins · · Score: 1

      I replaced my Treo 650 with a $300 16GB iPod Touch. I get VNC, RPC, telnet, SSH, and a *bunch* of apps games etc. I do voice recordings and can send and receive multimedia emails. I can sync documents to it. I have downloaded all levels of zoom for all maps covering from Vero Beach to Miami, FL. I can do everything with it that my Treo could and much much more.

      Oh, yeah, it plays music too.

    44. Re:Hah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Android is no good. Why? Because it stores data on Google's servers. I don't want my data stored on any machine I don't have control over, period.

      I'm replacing my Tungsten E with an LG Incite, btw. Windows Mobile.

    45. Re:Hah! by bigman2003 · · Score: 1

      Well, the question would be: "What does it mean to you?"

      You may have your own definition of 'open', but mine in this case is:

      "Can I modify the software to do what I want it to do? Can I write programs and install them on my phone? Are there artificial limitations in place?"

      The answer to all of these is, 'no' in the case of Windows Mobile.

      --
      No reason to lie.
  2. Well to be honest... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure Palm would want an IPhoneDevCamp-like group. Aren't those the guys that led the development of jailbreaks? Seems like a situation Palm wouldn't want to be in. Especially since the Pre is a survive-or-die product.

    1. Re:Well to be honest... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Aren't those the guys that led the development of jailbreaks? Seems like a situation Palm wouldn't want to be in.

      Ever consider how many people would have not bought an iPhone if it was 100% impossible to "jailbreak"?

    2. Re:Well to be honest... by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ever consider how many people would have not bought an iPhone if it was 100% impossible to "jailbreak"?

      Ever consider how many people have not bought an iPhone simply because for it be useful, they would have to "jailbreak" it?

  3. contrary by b4upoo · · Score: 2, Informative

    "There is nothing self serving---only responsibility to its share holders".
            What a contradiction. Right action demands serving all people and the most in need first not shareholders. In plain terms a corporation is about the essence of pure evil.

    1. Re:contrary by mea37 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So by way of example, whenever you earn money you keep just enough to live and give the rest to local charity?

      Oh, but you clearly have access to a computer, so that's probably not true.

      Get off your high horse about "right action". Hypocrisy is the essence of pure evil.

    2. Re:contrary by MozeeToby · · Score: 4, Informative

      Right action demands serving all people and the most in need first not shareholders. In plain terms a corporation is about the essence of pure evil.

      By that logic, if I don't live in a shack and give away all the money I don't absolutely need, I must be an evil, immoral person. Right and wrong are determined by culture and society. In our culture, a business has a duty to maximize shareholder value because shareholders have essentially loaned the corporation the money it needs to operate. If I loan you money, it is correct in our society to pay it back with agreed upon interest; there's very little difference between that and a corporation maximizing shareholder value.

    3. Re:contrary by gravesb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Bond holders lend money to a company; shareholders own part of the company. Since the shareholders own the company, the board and CEO work for the shareholders. That is why they must maximize shareholder value. Then the shareholders can take the money they make and spend it how they like. Saying a corporation is evil is a silly, populist gloss over the way things work. Corporations are neither good nor evil. The people who own them are. Corporations maximize shareholder value, and then we, as shareholders, determine whether that value is used for good or for evil. Sorry- not all of that was directed at you, just the definitional part at the beginning.

      --
      http://bgcommonsense.blogspot.com
    4. Re:contrary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a stupid, ill-informed, and shallow comment.

    5. Re:contrary by kestasjk · · Score: 1

      Hypocrisy is the essence of pure evil.

      Overreaction is the essence of pure evil.

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    6. Re:contrary by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1, Troll

      Well, if Palm doesn't want a healthy development community for its products, then let them have what they want. It's the first nail in the coffin, and the product will be DOA. Fuck 'em.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    7. Re:contrary by sherriw · · Score: 1

      I wonder if anyone will catch your Eightfold Path reference. Great post.

    8. Re:contrary by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 2, Funny

      In plain terms a corporation is about the essence of pure evil.

      Especially those 501(c)(3) corporations. Rotten to the core, every one of them!

      --
      This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    9. Re:contrary by vertinox · · Score: 2, Informative

      By that logic, if I don't live in a shack and give away all the money I don't absolutely need, I must be an evil, immoral person.

      According to a lot of regions... Including Christianity.

      Yes, you are.

      "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to squeeze through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to get into the kingdom of God."
      >

      I'll admit. I'm not a Christian (and yet I'm here quoting bible verses) so I understand perhaps this view is flawed, but arguably if you take it from a religious point of view of Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism then yes you are supposed to give all your things away you don't need a live in a shack.

      Heck, Islam forbids money lending and so did Christianity up until recently.

      Not that people have overlooked these teachings for the past 2000 or so odd years, but don't say wealth isn't historically viewed as something not evil. Half of the new testament is Jesus's denouncification of it.

      Again, I don't personally ascribe to it, but the tell that to the Amish or Buddhist monks.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    10. Re:contrary by camperdave · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hypocrisy is the essence of pure evil.
      Overreaction is the essence of pure evil.

      No. Describing things as the essence of pure evil is the essence of pure evil.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    11. Re:contrary by cromar · · Score: 4, Funny

      Recursion is the essence of pure evil.

    12. Re:contrary by mea37 · · Score: 1

      Hm... did you miss the reason I chose that phrasing? Because missing the joke is the essence of pure evil.

      Also, just to get ahead of this one: suggesting that my actions are evil, is the essence of pure evil.

    13. Re:contrary by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I guess in the eyes of religion, then, all technology is really quite evil too. After all, without wealth, no one would ever have been able to devote the time, energy, and resources necessary to developing any but the most rudimentary of technologies. Things like scientific research must be evil, because these scientists are being funded by wealthy people to pursue things, instead of this money being used to feed the poor.

      No wonder I'm not religious. It's all a bunch of idiotic claptrap made up by people envious of others.

    14. Re:contrary by fibrewire · · Score: 1

      And by that logic, Walmart must be the poorest company ever, with their cheap prices, their welfare plans and low dollar salaries to their employees - yep, gotta maximize that shareholder value. MozeeToby is correct, but lets not forget that balance in a competitive marketplace is always key. If you can't come up with something new, copy something that works - like Walmart. Low ball the employees, they will be grateful to have the job. Low ball the price for goods, we will be grateful to save money. When you have billions of shares. In fact, every company in the forbes top 10 list has made their fortunes a couple of dollars at a time.

      Note to self: Approach corporate Walmart with plan to distribute open source software and have local community devs at local stores, then host data warehouses at every store with free developer business centers - and cover all software and technology under the Walmart Public License.

    15. Re:contrary by ADRA · · Score: 1

      haha just watch "The Corporation". It was a great movie, even if you love our corporate overlords =)

      --
      Bye!
    16. Re:contrary by LoyalOpposition · · Score: 2, Funny

      No, recursion is the recursion.

      --
      I aim to misbehave.
    17. Re:contrary by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      A lot of us do in fact give a good portion of our money to charity. People who make a lot of money often give a very large amount to charity. Sure they also live well, but its not like they all penny pinch every dollar for themselves.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    18. Re:contrary by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 2, Funny

      Recursion is recursion (see: Recursion).

    19. Re:contrary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. Forgetting to close your tags properly is the essence of pure evil.

    20. Re:contrary by vertinox · · Score: 2, Interesting

      After all, without wealth, no one would ever have been able to devote the time, energy, and resources necessary to developing any but the most rudimentary of technologies.

      Umm... Who is your history teacher so I can slap them because you've just discounted all the Greek, Roman, and Renaissance innovators and inventors? Yes, many of them had patrons, but most of these guys weren't wealthy themselves. (And ironically some of the Scientists during the 1500's were monks and church leaders themselves)

      Also you've discounted all the advances of the Soviet Space program and arguably the Nazi German rocket program.

      I will agree that wealth is conductive towards technological progress, but capitalism wasn't needed for all instances of progress.

      I'd argue with need a mix of both, because without agencies like DARPA we'd never have saw private industry take the ball and run with what we call the internet today.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    21. Re:contrary by John+Whitley · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, one doesn't need to be utterly self-denying. GP's statement was phased differently by Bill and Ted: "Be excellent to each other." A Slashdotter, however, might require the double-negative form: "don't be an asshat." ;-) Neither of these forms include "to the exclusion of oneself."

      Paying attention to one's own needs is basic to the ability to interact with the world in a healthy way. People (and corporations) who deny this tend to get rather screwed up and/or end up playing doormat to others' desires.

      In the case of corporations, they DO have a responsibility to the societies that permit them to exist beyond just "the shareholders." This is a stupid fallacy that I'd love to see die. Occasionally, corporations forget this and get smacked down for it -- see the history of laws and legal actions relating to pollution, lemon laws, anti-trust, etc.

      Hypocrisy is the essence of pure evil.

      No, hyperbole is. ;-)

    22. Re:contrary by crabboy.com · · Score: 1

      "There is nothing self serving---only responsibility to its share holders". What a contradiction. Right action demands serving all people and the most in need first not shareholders. In plain terms a corporation is about the essence of pure evil.

      I believe you are both mistaken. A corporation has responsibility to provide value to all its STAKEholders. Meaning everyone with a stake of some sort in the company. Share holders being just one.

      --
      The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money
    23. Re:contrary by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'll admit. I'm not a Christian (and yet I'm here quoting bible verses) so I understand perhaps this view is flawed, but arguably if you take it from a religious point of view of Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism then yes you are supposed to give all your things away you don't need a live in a shack.

      You can't just take one verse from the Bible and get a whole lot of meaning out of it. You have to look at it in context. Jesus often times did things to make a point, and this is one of those cases.

      Prior to this passage (I'm paraphrasing now), a man asked Jesus what he had to do to get eternal life. Jesus told him to follow God's commandments, which the man claimed he did since he was a child. Jesus told him "Cool, now go sell all your stuff, give the money to the poor, and follow me." When Jesus said that, the man went away sad, because he was very wealthy. Basically, what it came down to was that the young man loved his stuff more than he loved God. That amounts to idolatry, which is in direct conflict with the 1st commandment.

      Most people don't realize that Jesus talked about money more than almost any other subject. Obviously, Jesus had many people who had money that supported his ministry on Earth. From a Christian world view, there's nothing wrong with having stuff, there's just something wrong with loving stuff more than you love God.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    24. Re:contrary by Unordained · · Score: 1

      Is recursion tautology, or is tautology recursion? Is a stateless, parameter-less, unbounded recursion even recursion at all?

    25. Re:contrary by mcsqueak · · Score: 1

      THANK YOU for stating this, even though you shouldn't have to. If I have to listen to one more person automatically paint corporations as "bad" because they think it makes them sound intellectual I'm going to puke. And don't get me started on those douches with their Che stickers on their Macbooks... ugh! ;)

    26. Re:contrary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Right and wrong are determined by culture and society."

      I fear for people who feel this way.

    27. Re:contrary by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Actually, no they don't have a responsibility to society beyond their responsibility to their shareholders. However, if they do not pay attention to anything but the immediate return to their shareholders they will fail in that responsibility. The corporations that got smacked down, failed to recognize that if they fail to meet some basic level of demands that society in general puts on them, they will fail in their responsibility to their shareholders.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    28. Re:contrary by Dunkirk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Disclaimer: IAAC. I know several wealthy Christians, even one -ridiculously- wealthy one, and I'm talking real, dyed-in-the-wool, no-hypocrisy-within-sight Christians. Depending on your point of view, I might be considered wealthy. Certainly, as a computer programmer in America who's doing alright despite "this economy" (thank God), I'm more wealthy than the majority of the world's population.

      If "Christianity" forbad lending, I don't know where "they" got it from. There are scriptures dealing with usury in the old testament. It was alright to lend with interest, just not to someone else of the faith. ;-)

      I'm writing to note that it's "easier" for the camel, but not impossible. The trick here is that it's the LOVE of money which is the root of all evil, according to scripture, not money itself. King David was one of the richest people the world had ever seen back in his day, and he was "a man after God's own heart."

      Take this for what it's worth, but since you seemed so reasonable (on Slashdot?!), I just wanted to chime in with my view.

      --
      Acts 17:28, "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being."
    29. Re:contrary by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      The Amish are not anti-wealth (many Amish are fairly rich), they are anti-technology (and even that is a bit of an oversimplification). The Amish have a quite different view of what is important than most others in our society (look at their reaction to the case where a man shot up one of their schools a few years ago).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    30. Re:contrary by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Umm... Who is your history teacher so I can slap them because you've just discounted all the Greek, Roman, and Renaissance innovators and inventors? Yes, many of them had patrons, but most of these guys weren't wealthy themselves. (And ironically some of the Scientists during the 1500's were monks and church leaders themselves)

      I never said scientists were wealthy, just their patrons. If their patrons had money to give scientists, inventors, etc., that's money that could have been given to the poor instead.

      The monk scientists aren't much better. Though they were poor, they were using resources (provided by Church money), and time, to do their work. Those resources and time could have been devoted to helping the poor instead. For instance, they could have spent all their time growing more food to give to poor people.

      Also you've discounted all the advances of the Soviet Space program and arguably the Nazi German rocket program.

      How so? Those were funded by those countries' national resources. Those countries used tax money, through the government, to run those programs. They could have spent it on the poor instead.

      I will agree that wealth is conductive towards technological progress, but capitalism wasn't needed for all instances of progress.

      Capitalism isn't necessary, but wealth is, whether that wealth is controlled by individuals, companies, or governments. All that wealth could be given to the poor instead, according to religionists. And according to religionists, apparently, wealth itself is bad, so we should all be poor people living in shacks and living off of food we grow for ourselves (and then starving when a drought hits).

      I'd argue with need a mix of both, because without agencies like DARPA we'd never have saw private industry take the ball and run with what we call the internet today.

      Yes, but that isn't the point. The government "wasted" that wealth on DARPA, when it could have given it away to poor people instead.

    31. Re:contrary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Describing things as the essence of pure evil is hypocritical overreaction.

    32. Re:contrary by AnAdventurer · · Score: 1

      Corporations are playing to the next quarter and to themselves. Evil is a but much though.

      --
      6.8SPC TR of 550, l xwind at 6, drift rt at 26" drops 77". AT has 503 ft-lbs at 1403 fps. FT 0.86
    33. Re:contrary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Someone please Godwin this recursive loop before it crashes Slashdot!

    34. Re:contrary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We don't take kindly to the essence of pure evil 'round here...

    35. Re:contrary by monopole · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Never ascribe to malice what can be accounted to stupidity.

      Every time I hear the "Only Responsibility is Maximizing Value for the Shareholders" argument it seems to be coming from executives who are gutting a company to realize great quarterly profits. They then jump clear on golden parachutes as the husk of a company nosedives.

      Wise corporations think well ahead, plowing money into research and development, retaining skilled and loyal workers, and cultivating a loyal and fanatical consumer base.

      Palm (and Handspring later) used to be the former, producing truly innovative, best in the world products. Now it's the latter, clueless and circling the drain.

      Entire segments of American industry have been wiped off the map this way in a manner far more pernicious than any communist could conceive.

    36. Re:contrary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since the shareholders own the company, the board and CEO work for the shareholders. ... Saying a corporation is evil is a silly, populist gloss over the way things work.

      While as an anonymous stock holder I appreciate the board and CEO's syncophant willingness to follow orders. However, profit should not be the only motive for a company. The idea of a company, that a group of people could come together to work for a concrete goal, should be so perverted is a waste. There are many means to the ends of profit, some of which I have and will continue to vote against with my shares no matter how coward I may seem.

      To paraphrase Godwin via Quirk's Exception: But in a world full willing Nazis I refuse to play the part of Hitler.

    37. Re:contrary by gravesb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not all companies are motivated purely by profit--that's just the legal default. There are entire classes of corporations dedicated to things other than making money--non-profits, for instance. Even for profit companies, such as Google.org, can have goals other than profit maximization, as long as they specify those goals in their by-laws. I am unsure that purely profit motivated companies are even the majority, as it seems every student has a non-profit registered these days. For profit are definitely the largest by market cap, though, as people generally donate money to non-profits, and invest money in for-profits.

      --
      http://bgcommonsense.blogspot.com
    38. Re:contrary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Recursion -> Recursion is the essence of pure evil.... Opps, I'm Evil

    39. Re:contrary by baKanale · · Score: 1

      No. Describing things as the essence of pure evil is the essence of pure evil.

      Exactly! Only a Sith deals in absolutes!

    40. Re:contrary by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · · Score: 1

      So by way of example, whenever you earn money you keep just enough to live and give the rest to local charity?

      Sort of true.

      Except the charity isn't always local, and it isn't voluntary. It's called taxes.

      --
      Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
    41. Re:contrary by Akoman · · Score: 1

      #1 "Right and wrong are determined by culture and society" which is correct. It is a subjective quality. Glad we started this on a good note.

      In a culture where goods are communally managed you will only live in a shack if everyone lives in a shack. If there is enough for everyone to live in a house, then everyone lives in a house. I would really like for you people who do not want to accept communal good as a (perhaps subjective) moral imperative to at least stop making idiotic straw man arguments. You have far better ones at your disposal, as you show in the rest of your post.

      Legally a business has a duty to generate profit. But a business isn't a person so most of the normal moral brakes aren't there. Specifically the businesses duty can (will?) lead it to *deliberately* exploiting individuals, doing environmental damage that is hazardous to nearby residents, or lobbying for modification of legislation to benefit their fiscal duty at the expense of common good.

      You can also argue that monopolization of resources both raw, material, and productive means that collectively businesses actively exclude public participation in providing cheaper goods and services (since they do not include the markup) that benefit more people. You can see this in all the Municipal Wi-Fi projects that are under attack.

      In fact it is arguable that businesses or enterprises owned and controlled by a fraction of the population are inherently undemocratic because they control the actual production of goods and services and are actively opposed to the democratization of that production (ie unions of the early 1900s who demanded a lot more than just wages). Meanwhile when the actual democratic state tries to intervene and impose moral/ethical restrictions on businesses they are actively rebuffed and campaigns are made by employees specifically paid to undermine the decisions of a democratic body elected by the people.

      I think I've listed some good points. Corporations aren't evil, they're just victims of their legal duty and apathy of a people. But that doesn't mean that the moral/ethical standard they maintain is somehow acceptable.

    42. Re:contrary by advocate_one · · Score: 1

      Palm (and Handspring later) used to be the former, producing truly innovative, best in the world products. Now it's the latter, clueless and circling the drain.

      I think you got your former and latter the wrong way round... :)

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    43. Re:contrary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you by any chance know the phrase "sour grapes"?

    44. Re:contrary by Rufty · · Score: 1

      Since the shareholders own the company, the board and CEO work for the shareholders. That is why they must maximize shareholder value.

      You've missed a step there. The board and the CEO work for the shareholders, and the shareholders almost always (but don't have to) tell them to maximize shareholder value.

      --
      Red to red, black to black. Switch it on, but stand well back.
    45. Re:contrary by sootman · · Score: 1

      No, forgetting to close your <i> tags is the essence of pure evil.

      --
      Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
    46. Re:contrary by crono_deus · · Score: 1

      Heck, Islam forbids money lending and so did Christianity up until recently.

      Incorrect, and as a Muslim, I should know.

      Islam forbids usury, which most of the time means interest, but which in general applies to any fee charged for the use of money. Sharia Law banks indeed do loans, but they give them without charging a fee for said loan or interest on the loan itself.

      The wikipedia link above also notes that up until "recently," (as these things go, at any rate) Catholicism forbade usury as well, and Talmudic law prohibited a Jew from charging another Jew, but not a Gentile, for the use of money.

      Furthermore, you said

      if you take it from a religious point of view of Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism then yes you are supposed to give all your things away you don't need a live in a shack.

      I can't speak with authority on Christianity and Buddhism, but I can say for certain you've very easily straw-manned Islam's view of charity and wealth (and probably the others, too). Allow me to enlighten you: Islam asks that one be generous in gift-giving and charity, but not to the point of bankrupting oneself or even one's family. There's even a famous Hadith about this. If memory serves, it goes something like:

      A old man came to the Prophet one day and asked if it would be acceptable to give half money to charity before he died. The Prophet asked him if he had any children, to which the man said, "Yes." The Prophet then said, "Half it too much; you leave too little for your family." The man then asked if a third was acceptable. Again, the Prophet said, "A third is also too much." Finally, when the man asked if a quarter would suffice, the Prophet made no reply. And so it was.

      I think what has confused you is that though religions, including Islam, will occasionally hold actions or people up to be paragons of charity, the intent is not to get everyone to become paupers, but to help point out to us that it's only money, something of this world, and that the attachment to it -- called greed, which we Slashdotters love to fume about -- is the cause of a good number of problems.

      --
      Ne Cede Malis.
    47. Re:contrary by Follis · · Score: 1

      Not on any smart compiler. It'll be optimized into an infinite loop

    48. Re:contrary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most people don't realize that Jesus talked about money more than almost any other subject.

      Well, he WAS Jewish. ;)

    49. Re:contrary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pure evil is the essence of pure evil.

    50. Re:contrary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Congratulations! Only 4.75 hours after I made the same comment.

    51. Re:contrary by jknapka · · Score: 1

      It's easy not to love money when you've got enough of it.

  4. Nitwits by jonnythan · · Score: 5, Informative

    If I'm reading correctly, Palm hasn't done anything.

    It seems they signed some NDAs and had a meeting set up. Then one of the guys posted to Twtiter something about the meeting, and as a result Palm canceled the meeting.

    That's it.

    Am I missing something? If not, these guys are tards and making a big deal out of nothing.

    1. Re:Nitwits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      these guys are tards and making a big deal out of nothing.

      I think this part needs to be emphasized and repeated.

    2. Re:Nitwits by DerekLyons · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, it also appears that the balance of their complaint is "we just wanna help and Palm hasn't fallen all over itself to appease us like they must".

    3. Re:Nitwits by TinBromide · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Haha, so the proper title is "overzealous developers get miffed at palm and lose interest in creating community".

      --
      Is it sad that I am more likely to recognize you and your posts by your sig than your name or UID?
    4. Re:Nitwits by vertinox · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then one of the guys posted to Twtiter something about the meeting, and as a result Palm canceled the meeting.

      All the guy said in Twitter that they were having a meeting with Palm and nothing content related to what they were discussing.

      If that is the reason, then its piss poor community relations. If they guy gave details about what was covered then perhaps that would violate NDA.

      Either way, the behavior of Palm towards its community developers isn't going to get anyone to do them any favors at this point.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    5. Re:Nitwits by NiteMair · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm guessing you've never read an NDA from a large corporation. Just the act of mentioning the NDA is often a violation of it - let alone that you are scheduled to meet with them!

      The idiots who think they can re-interpret what an NDA means get what they deserve.

    6. Re:Nitwits by jonnythan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, the very existence of the meeting may have been covered by the NDA.

      But the contract they signed with these guys was based on no business partnership whatsoever. Palm would have to basically just trust them to abide by the NDA.

      The fact that they twittered about the meeting right after they signed the NDA probably didn't really foster trust in the relationship.

    7. Re:Nitwits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      First rule of NDA: Don't talk about NDA

    8. Re:Nitwits by 644bd346996 · · Score: 1

      Draconian NDAs like this one are usually laden with unconscionable terms, and are the most common symptom of bad community/developer relations. Once the public knows your product is coming, you want third party developers to be able to start working as soon as possible, and you want them to be able to publicly extol the benefits of developing for that platform.

    9. Re:Nitwits by rm999 · · Score: 1

      It seems to me like this is one of those situations where someone's feelings got hurt, and they are trying to use the internet to punish the other side. I hate when people do this; if you think you were wronged, act like an adult. From the twitter posts, it seems like Palm's Ambassador is a normal guy who was a bit stressed, and felt he was being pestered. The Pre Dev Camp people should have remained consistent:
      "During the planning phases of the event we agreed that the community would live and thrive with or without Palm, Inc.'s support or participation. To that end, we assumed we'd get no support from Palm"

    10. Re:Nitwits by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      If they guy gave details about what was covered then perhaps that would violate NDA.

      Simply disclosing the meeting could very well violate the NDA. It depends on exactly what the NDA required you to not disclose.

    11. Re:Nitwits by gmeb · · Score: 1

      I agree. Corporations will only partner with entities/communities they trust. Not honouring an NDA is throwing away your trustworthiness. No corporation in their right mind will ever want to divulge confidential information with them.

      --
      The angry man always thinks he can do more than he can. -- Albertano of Brescia
    12. Re:Nitwits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The idiots who think they can re-interpret what an NDA means get what they deserve.

      And companies that will only talk with an NDA that requires no one mention the NDA, get what they deserve, too. These guys may be "tards" but it's also pretty clear that Palm does not want anyone to buy their product.

    13. Re:Nitwits by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      I can neither confirm nor deny the presence of an NDA in this statement.

    14. Re:Nitwits by lintux · · Score: 1

      > Am I missing something? If not, these guys are tards and making a big deal out of nothing.
      Even more because this publicity probably burnt all their remaining bridges. :-)

    15. Re:Nitwits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      For clarification, since the NDA is the main thing being discussed on most posts on the web.

      We were very specific and direct with Aaron Hyde that we signed the NDA to cover the release date of the phone. Nothing else. The fact the the meeting was taking place or that we had an NDA was absolutely not part of the agreement.

      Second point, Paul Cousineau and Chuq Von Rospach at Palm had asked us on a previous call to make sure the community knew they were talking to us. They were held under some tight restrictions about what they could say to the public, for obvious reasons, and had asked us to be sure the developer community knew they were engaged.

      It appears that the two competing needs (communication to the community that Palm was talking to the independent developers via preDevCamp and secrecy) driven by separate camps clashed.

      This, coupled with our frustrations based upon some other issues in our relationship with Palm led to the decisions by whurley and myself to exit the scene.

      The worldwide movement we created under the preDevCamp banner is, by design, intact and all local groups, as far as I can tell, are still planning their individual events.

      Last point, Palm gets it now...

      Pam Deziel, VP of Developer Marketing, responded on the Palm Developer Network blog this morning about the situation:

      "We overreacted to the whole disclosure issue. Weâ(TM)ve been in stealth and super secret mode for so long now, we needed a real world conversation to see how we needed to work things so everybody can operate in their own environment."

      "Iâ(TM)m optimistic that we can find a good solution. And weâ(TM)re going to keep talking. Weâ(TM)d love to get your two cents, concerns, and suggestions â" feel free to join the conversation here, and be assured that even when we sometimes have to keep quiet, weâ(TM)re always listening to your ideas."

      Read the whole post here: http://pdnblog.palm.com/2009/05/a-predevcamp-update/

      Whurley and I are here to serve the community, not the corporation. When it became obvious that we needed to make a bold move to get Palm's attention on behalf of preDevCamp, we moved. Whether you agree with our tactics or not, Palm is seriously paying attention to you now. Dan Rumney will insure that the movement has one single point of leadership to the extent that a large, worldwide movement needs it.

      The end result has been a more active, genuine, serious relationship between Palm and its independent developer community. Everyone wins. This is what we, as leaders of the preDevCamp movement, hoped to create in the beginning. It looks like we're here now.

      Anyone want to talk to me about it personally, feel free to catch me on twitter http://twitter.com/giovanni, email at predevcamp(@)gallucci(dot)net or leave a comment on my original post http://blog.gallucci.net/2009/05/palm-doesnt-get-it.html

      I'm thinking it's water under the bridge now. Nothing to see here. Go forth and develop. I'm going camping: http://dallas.wordcamp.org

      -giovanni
      http://twitter.com/giovanni

  5. Umm... by Joe+Snipe · · Score: 1

    There's nothing self serving or evil about that; it's how things work in big business.

    There are people who feel that those two positions are not mutually exclusive.

    --
    Sometimes, life itself is sarcasm...
    1. Re:Umm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone who thinks businesses are about making profit, and have no care about anything else are commies!

      Everyone know that businesses are like puppies, they make everyone happy and healthy and do no wrong!

  6. Sorry... but gotta be said. by zonker · · Score: 0, Funny

    FACE PALM.

  7. Ok, what is the history from the other side? by Tei · · Score: 1

    I feel like we are reading here only the 50% of the history.

    --

    -Woof woof woof!

  8. So they cancelled a meeting? by Planesdragon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ok. So some guys who don't have experience with WebOS want to do a "dev camp". OK, more power to them. Palm reaches out, wanting to encourage this sort of thing.

    The blogger in the linked article then gets an NDA to sign for an upcoming meeting. And then the meeting is canceled... and because they canceled one meeting, obviously palm is "killing" a development community?

    I wonder if Mr. "dancrumb" (Dan Crumb?) was just harping about the HTML + javascript model not being "real" programming, and the OS guys over at Palm realized that a community that didn't want to , you know, write web-style-apps for WebOS wasn't the first developer community they wanted to help?

  9. Wasn't even the meeting.... by Cheviot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I might be missing something, but the fact that they were even having a meeting with Palm would have been covered by the NDA, wouldn't it?

    If they started talking before even the first meeting took place it's not surprising Palm pulled the plug.

    1. Re:Wasn't even the meeting.... by Warhawke · · Score: 1

      The first rule about Palm Corp. is you do not talk about Palm Corp.

    2. Re:Wasn't even the meeting.... by hplus · · Score: 1

      You're missing the same thing that the rest of us are missing: details about the NDA. Without those, we can't tell who is in the right in this situation. Now we just have to find somebody willing to agree to disclose this information...

  10. Read the article by NiteMair · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It seems like these guys got overzealous that they had signed an NDA and were to meet with Palm, so much so that they couldn't refrain from posting a tweet about it.

    It's likely that one of the conditions of the NDA was that they could not discuss the NDA at all. By claiming they had signed one, in preparation for a meeting with Palm, it was probably a sign that they couldn't keep their enthusiasm contained long enough to even meet with Palm.

    This is speculation on my part, but this is how it seems reading the article. When dealing with corporations and NDAs, one must be careful what one does - the old adage: "loose lips sinks ships" comes to mind.

    1. Re:Read the article by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      "The first rule of Fight Club is, you do not talk about Fight Club." Somehow, I don't think this applies to NDAs.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    2. Re:Read the article by afabbro · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "The first rule of Fight Club is, you do not talk about Fight Club." Somehow, I don't think this applies to NDAs.

      Well, it all depends on what you sign, right?

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
    3. Re:Read the article by NiteMair · · Score: 1

      It certainly seems that Palm felt that it did:

      http://blog.gallucci.net/2009/05/palm-doesnt-get-it.html

      "So, Iâ(TM)ll let whurley recount his conversations with Pam. Suffice it to say, all three of us (whurely, Dan and I) were unimpressed. The twitter message from me and retweetted by whurley was enough, in their judgment, to claim that we broke the NDA."

  11. Overreacting. by damu · · Score: 1

    I think the preDevCamp guys are over reacting. At least they are getting some acknowledgment from Palm. Let Palm release the damn thing first then have them focus their sites on the community. If the platform is solid and open, people will flock to it, with or without preDevCamp. dam

    --


    Useless sig.
  12. Irresponsibility to your shareholders! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You CAN be responsible to your shareholders THROUGH supporting a developer community. In fact, causing this "bad will" by not being supportive is an act of complete irresponsibility to your shareholders, because this move will damage the bottom line.

  13. Corporations seem to forget... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...that shareholders are irrelevant if they aren't getting paid through the money that consumers spend. So, if that's really how a company feels--that they only need to get down on their knees to fellate those few individuals who purchase their sock--then I have a simple solution. Stop giving that company your money.

    Vote with your wallet, folks. I've been saying that for years.

  14. Quiet, you! by bonch · · Score: 0

    Be quiet! Companies are evil! This is yet another example of "corporate ineptitude" for all the enlightened Slashdotters to shake their heads over. Didn't you read the summary? Stop thinking!

  15. Right action? by Burning1 · · Score: 1

    "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need", eh?

    I have concerns about libertarian "free market" ideals, but I think your comment pushes things way too far in the opposite direction.

    1. Re:Right action? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Please keep in mind that contrary to popular belief, Libertarians are not in favor of completely unregulated markets. Rather, they support the least amount of regulation that works. For example, I think just about anybody today with half a brain or more recognizes that the "financial industry" was out of control and requires more regulation... Libertarian or not. Most intelligent Libertarians also recognize that a reasonable set of antitrust laws are also necessary.

    2. Re:Right action? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      All real libertarians are free market anarchists, which is where the term came from, just because a conservative party took it for their name doesn't mean anybody who is a conservative can go and call themselves libertarians, so you are very wrong on that point. And every libertarian worth anything understands that it was in fact government mandates that caused the banks to act in a risky way, causing the problems we see today.

    3. Re:Right action? by Bananenrepublik · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Rather, they support the least amount of regulation that works.

      By that definition, everybody is a libertarian, they just define to work differently

    4. Re:Right action? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Not at all. A lot of Democrats, for instance, can see for themselves that a particular market is working, and still want to interfere in it. They have been doing so for a very long time. Not to give Republicans a pass. They have done so as well, though their tendency sometimes has been to go toward so little regulation that it does not work... like in the finance "industry" in recent years, for example.

    5. Re:Right action? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      No, I am not wrong on that point. If you actually read the platform of the Libertarian Party, you will see that it contradicts you on exactly those points.

      First, there is nothing "anarchist" about it... which means that Libertarians are not anarchists. Which makes perfect sense... there is already an Anarchist party. What would be the point of two? If you are a member of the Libertarian party, but you are basically an anarchist, well, you are in the wrong party. That is pretty clear.

      Second, there were lots of causes of the market collapse. Among them were: driving stocks down through naked short selling, which was not a "government mandate" in any way. In fact, that is highly illegal. Also, the mischaracterization of high-risk investments (some mortgages, for example) as low-risk within hedge funds and other instruments played a very big factor. Also not a government mandate. Extensive over-leveraging was another culprit, which was made possible by government when they got rid of some regulations a while back, but which again was not a "government mandate".

      All three of those areas: over-leveraging, naked short selling, and what amounts to fraud in debt-based financial instruments were all areas that cried out for better regulation. An awful lot of people were screaming loudly about that long before the "collapse" ever happened, and many of them were Libertarians.

      Libertarians Ron Paul, Harry Browne, and Bob Barr all called for auditing the Fed as a starting point toward leading us eventually back to a solid monetary standard. You call that "anarchist"? It is anything but.

    6. Re:Right action? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Give an example.

    7. Re:Right action? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For example, I think just about anybody today with half a brain or more recognizes that the "financial industry" was out of control and requires more regulation... Libertarian or not.

      Some libertarians might actually argue for much less regulation. However, they would at the same time argue for a complete removal of all government help to the financial industry. No "FDIC" or other "insurance", no bailouts, nothing.

      If I went to Las Vegas with a rich uncle (Sam) and he told me I could bet as much as I wanted, and he would bail out my losses, but I could keep my winnings... just imagine how careless I could bet. If I knew I was paying my own losses, I wouldn't be so careless. I don't think that's the only cause of the financial problems, but it does serve to illustrate how some extreme free-market fans might actually argue for less regulation.

      (I'm a minarchist, not an anarchocapitalist. And I favor a gradualist approach. So I might welcome greater regulation in the near term, while still hoping that someday we could simplify things down more closely to the minimal-government ideal.)

    8. Re:Right action? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you missed the point entirely. Regardless of what the libertarian party believes, they ARE NOT libertarians, because libertarians are free market anarchists, by original definition.

      On the other point, when you look into it, you see the financial crisis was largely due to the failing of Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac. Both of those were "government sponsored". The government insisted that they make housing affordable. Bush's Quote: "We use the mighty muscle of the federal government to encourage people to own their own homes"
      See search results for that quote here

  16. Pre vs. iPhone 3.0 by TedTodorov · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I continue to be mystified as to why anyone would seriously consider the Pre over the new iPhone. The iPhone 3.0 http://daringfireball.net/2009/05/the_next_iphone will have twice or four times the capacity as the Pre for the same price (depending on how you wish to count Palm's rebate from the $299 upfront price). The iPhone has a thriving developer community that the will only expand when the iTablet finally gets released, and is unlikely to be duplicated by Palm, even if they stay ion business, which is far from a given.

    And finally, the iPhone works worldwide, while the CDMA Pre is a US/Canada only device. That in and of itself decides the choice for me.

    1. Re:Pre vs. iPhone 3.0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Let's see...

      - I'm going to pay a hell of a lot less for the same kind of data usage/plan from Sprint than I would from an iPhone provider.

      - I don't want to switch carriers anyway

      - The device is cheaper

      - It has a physical keyboard

      - I don't want to run iTunes

      - My primary need is a MID, not a media device

      - I don't need storage, I need capabilities

    2. Re:Pre vs. iPhone 3.0 by nedwidek · · Score: 1

      I'll second the above and add that it will be fantastic to have native support for my gtalk though my gmail account and my google apps account.

      The fact that I will be able to have access to my public calendar, personal calendar, and business calendar at the same time is completely fantastic.

      I have an iPod Touch and it is nice, but the one exchange calendar/contacts limitation is driving me nuts.

      --
      Post anonymously - For when your opinion embarrasses even you!
    3. Re:Pre vs. iPhone 3.0 by docbrody · · Score: 1

      I've got an iPhone and I am definitely thinking about switching. I need better coverage in the areas I live. I want a real keyboard. I would like to have background processing so that I can leave an IM app open while on the phone/browsing the web.

      On the other hand, the iPhone does have a lot of cool apps already and I do like iTunes (*GASP* yes I just admited that I like iTunes).

      Even if I do switch, my iPhone will basicaly become an iTouch, so I will still have the apps, but then I am back to carrying around multiple devices everywhere I go.

      If I had to guess, I think I will be sticking with the iPhone, but the Pre is tempting - good developer support (and therefore cool apps), could tip the balance toward the pre. So I hope they straighten things out with these guys and get the dev community charged up.

    4. Re:Pre vs. iPhone 3.0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      iPhone v3.0's push notification server thingie will take care of your IM needs.

      As for the others? Those aren't going to go away. What if you got a micro-cell booster for your home? And if you jailbreak your iphone, there's potential to add a physical keyboard.

    5. Re:Pre vs. iPhone 3.0 by docbrody · · Score: 1

      My home is OK for coverage, but the micro cell boosters is a great idea. Do they make them for cars? As far as push notification is concerned, I'll have to see how it is when it finally arives, but I doubt that it is quite as elegant as the pre's notifications bar and "activity cards" for switching between browser, IM client, etc.

    6. Re:Pre vs. iPhone 3.0 by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · · Score: 1

      iPhone?

      And you are arguing about the ethics of Palm??

      It's not like they went and sued app developers.

      --
      Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
    7. Re:Pre vs. iPhone 3.0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Pre has much, much faster hardware than any generation of the iphone. When you scroll web pages in the Pre, it's actually able to render them in real-time; you don't get the stupid "checker-board" crap like on the iphone where you have to wait for pages to load.

      Using a phone to browse the internet is one of the biggest reasons a smartphone makes you more productive. Sounds like if a phone is able to do that better, it's a better phone.

    8. Re:Pre vs. iPhone 3.0 by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      And finally, the iPhone works worldwide, while the CDMA Pre is a US/Canada only device. That in and of itself decides the choice for me.

      Non US models use GSM.

  17. Palm lost the plot years ago... by argent · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Palm lost the plot years ago, when they decided they wanted to make a laptop replacement to compete with the Pocket PC... even though they were kicking the Pocket PC 4:1 in the market even years after the iPaq allegedly "legitimized" the Windows Powered handheld.

    They could have had Palm handhelds PROFITABLY for sale for $40-$50 in every grocery store in the US, if they'd followed the price-performance curve down to mass market levels. They could have sold entry level models for cost to school districts and replace the Ti-83 and equivalents in classrooms, and everyone would be using Palms and Palm Powered cellphones... but no, Compaq/HP had the ARM-based Pocket PCs and Palm wanted that last 20% of the market... and lost it all.

    1. Re:Palm lost the plot years ago... by 644bd346996 · · Score: 1

      They couldn't have done well in the education market, because their platform was too open to games or software that teachers would view as cheating. That's why things like touch screens and IR aren't allowed in standardized tests, and consequently, are banned from most classrooms. Advanced hardware features typically implies the capability for software that is too advanced for most teachers.

    2. Re:Palm lost the plot years ago... by Ohio+Calvinist · · Score: 1

      You are exactly right. As Palm saw the tides turning, they should have said "We're going to be a great organizer at a great price that just so happens to run all sorts of applications" where PocketPC was "we're just a little tiny computer that can't do a lot of the things the big one can." If they'd stuck to monochrome on lower-end hardware rather than trying to keep up with PocketPC they could have sold millions of those things to people who thought they'd be a great tool, but not worth the price point versus a paper organizer, and been best-of-class.

      That being said, they should have also kept the OS general enough and licensed it and you'd have seen the PalmOS in all kinds of embedded applications as linux hadn't developed enough to be as good of embedded OS as it is now.

      --
      Forgive my spelling from time to time. I'm often posting during short breaks.
    3. Re:Palm lost the plot years ago... by Ohio+Calvinist · · Score: 1

      The TI-89/92 and I'm sure lower had the ability to run ASM programs. We played games on them all the time and the teacher encouraged it because in AP Calc, if you could pass without paying attention, and therefore more power to you, and if you failed because you were playing games, it was no sweat off the teacher's back. Not only that it got us more familar with the devices and taught us to use them more effectively rather than as $150 paperweights.

      These devices also had ports for communication, and if there was a market, I'm sure could have had an IR dongle created.

      If Palm made an Education model without the IR sensor and hard-flashed particular apps based on what the device was "for" (e.g. a touch calculator, a reading tool, a serial device controller) on low-end hardware for a low-end price, they could have sold millions of them for "specific applications." On the other hand they could have left them open, sold them for $50-60 bucks and given each student one and allowed teachers (if they wished) to integrate them into cirriculum.

      There are so many uses for technology in education and the two limiting factors are technologically inept teachers with no desire to learn (Disclaimer: Wife and I both work in Ed, and trust me, there are many of these) and the high per-pupil cost. If they made these things cheap and easy and had buy in from administration they could have done amazing things with these years before OLPC was an option.

      --
      Forgive my spelling from time to time. I'm often posting during short breaks.
    4. Re:Palm lost the plot years ago... by nuckfuts · · Score: 1

      They could have had Palm handhelds PROFITABLY for sale for $40-$50 in every grocery store in the US, if they'd followed the price-performance curve down to mass market levels.

      Ultimately I don't think that would succeed. There has always been a drive for featurism in the marketplace. I think it stems from the fact that many purchasers are uncertain about choosing technical products. (Nobody wants to buy the next BetaMAX or HD-DVD, right?). There has to be an simple way to compare products. For computers, people used to compare processor clock speeds. For digital cameras, people compare megapixels. For LCD screens, it might be refresh rate or contrast ratio. People need something understandable to grasp on to.

      So, getting back to Palm, I can see why handheld makers are pushed to constantly add new features, not just offer the same old product for less money. People are atttracted by the "gee whiz" factor in new products. "This one is cheaper, but this one can do X, Y and Z"!

    5. Re:Palm lost the plot years ago... by TangoCharlie · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Palm is dead. If you have shares in Palm sell them quick while they're still worth something. Shame really. Actually, ironic really, since it's Apple who is really hammering the last
      nail into the coffin..... remember, it was Palm that took the PDA concept from Apple and made it work. Now Apple has retaken the last of that market and killed it. Poetic justice I guess.

      --
      return 0; }
    6. Re:Palm lost the plot years ago... by argent · · Score: 1

      There has always been a drive for featurism in the marketplace. I think it stems from the fact that many purchasers are uncertain about choosing technical products.

      There's a marketplace for features, to be sure, but there's also a marketplace for "good enough".

      1. The difference in price between "features" and "good enough" was more than a factor of two.
      2. Palm's ARM-based entry into the market cost more and had fewer features than the Windows Powered competition.

      Palm OS could NEVER compete with Windows CE on features. The fundamental design of the OS was too different. What they COULD compete on was price and application support. They threw away price and some major applications, when they switched to ARM. Now they've thrown away the rest of their legacy application compatibility. They have abandoned all their advantages for a game where they were crippled from the word go.

  18. Why I will never use *any* Palm product again : by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Palm allowed Sony to produce hardware, but did not control the software end of that situation.

    As a result, my Sony "Palm" device not only became incompatible with the desktop computer I was using, but it also corrupted the data on both the Clie and in Palm Desktop.

    After this disaster, I use a plain cell phone ( non-smartphone )
    and paper notes. It will be a cold day in hell before I use, let alone buy, any device sold by Palm or Sony.

    1. Re:Why I will never use *any* Palm product again : by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. Palm screwed up their previous software+ hardware situation, and now they
      expect people to forget about all that.

      It's not gonna happen.

      No Palm, no way, not even if it's free.

  19. Why even try? by ichbineinneuben · · Score: 1

    What made them think this was a good idea to begin with? After more than a DECADE of customer abuse and putting the interests of their corporate partners ahead of their users (with the predictable result - shrinking market share) Palm DESERVES to die...

  20. Meh by rnelsonee · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm not sure a canceled meeting is newsworthy, but I do feel like Palm isn't bending over backwards to help developers.

    There's still no SDK (I applied to be part of the second limited release - no response), and the SDK ain't exactly complicated - it's javascript - they don't need to do much else than provide the standard packages and put in some new keyword highlights, and get an simulator out. Also there's zero published documentation - I only get PDF updates from the O'Reilly book chapter by chapter as it's written, and even the emulator to get PalmOS apps on WebOS is third party.

    Palm has enough competition with App stores - everyone from Blackberry to SymbianOS is getting their hands dirty with App stores this year. Palm's strength is its developers, and it seems they're going to just let this whole advantage go as they dribble out the SDK at a snail's pace.

    1. Re:Meh by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Typical. First they stick with their legacy OS long, long after it's obsolete. Then when they finally get around to replacing it, they fail to support their developers. Jeez, a new platform has the deck stacked against it even if you do everything right. No developer/hacker ecosystem? The things dead before it's even released.

      Palm's capacity for shooting itself in the foot is amazing. The first Palm I owned was a V. The V series made me fall in love with the platform, and is still my favorite. But even it had some boneheaded features. Like an Up button that stuck out too far, so you couldn't close the cover without triggering it; I think the StayOffIfUp hack was the most popular of all Palm OS hacks.

      And every Palm I've owned since then has been worse. I had hopes for the Handspring version, but its screwups made me wonder if Jeff Hawkins really had anything to do with creating the basic Palm design. And when Palm absorbed them, Handspring ineptitude seemed to spread through the whole product line.

      My final Palm was as a Centro: buggy, shoddy construction, and the integration of the phone with the PDA was klunky in the extreme. A web browser designed by somebody with very novel notions about what the "Back" button is supposed to do. JRE pulled just before I bought it. When the Centro finally stopped seeing is microSD card, I knew my long relationship with Palm was over.

      If the Pre were from some random vendor I'd never heard of, I'd be very tempted to give it a try. But I'll never touch another Palm product, ever.

    2. Re:Meh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and the SDK ain't exactly complicated - it's javascript

      Isn't there also an API involved in here somewhere? That's like saying the iPhone SDK isn't complicated, it's just Objective-C, or the Windows Mobile SDK isn't complicated, it's just C++.

    3. Re:Meh by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      I used my one megabyte palm pro for nine years. In that time I found exactly two bugs in the software. When I upgraded to to new palm zire I loaded my data into it with palm-link on linux. Literally everything was there on the new machine. At one time palm employed fantastic software people. It remains to be seen if they still do though.

  21. When? by sexconker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When will corporations realize that community support is the best way to drive success?

    When it's true.
    Sorry nerds, the best way to drive success is to dangle shiny bobbles in front of the plebes, and charge them out the ass for it.
    Deal with it.

    1. Re:When? by Phacet · · Score: 1

      When will corporations realize that community support is the best way to drive success?

      When it's true. Sorry nerds, the best way to drive success is to dangle shiny bobbles in front of the plebes, and charge them out the ass for it. Deal with it.

      I'm not convinced this model is universal. Many companies, notably in the console gaming cateogry, have relied or currently rely on developers to deliver content to drive their hardware sales. It's been speculated that the app store on iTunes fills exactly this role in the market the Palm pre will compete in.

    2. Re:When? by Rufty · · Score: 1

      And just who makes all those *extra* shiny bobbles???

      --
      Red to red, black to black. Switch it on, but stand well back.
    3. Re:When? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Console gaming industry, you say?

      We've got Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft.

      Sony and Microsoft both take HUGE losses on their hardware initially, and hope to make money in the long run on software.

      Nintendo, on the other hand, MAKES money on each console they sell (and does so at the launch of the console), AND develops/publishes lots of their own games, in addition to relying on the 3rd party licensing fees that MS and Sony bank on almost exclusively.

      So far, the gaming divisions of MS and Sony are deep in the red. Sega deep. But both MS and Sony see their gaming divisions as hooks for their brand, so they continue to keep their broken model alive.

      Nintendo is primarily a game company and needs to make a profit through games to survive. Nintendo works for themselves and considers 3rd party profits gravy, and is fucking rolling in cash. Obscene amounts of cash.

    4. Re:When? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      For 99% of them, that would be the corporation, of course.

      Any person in the community developing their own baubles (can't believe I typed "bobbles" back there...) that are worth a damn will be monitored. Once the successful ones reach a certain level of success, they will be approached and assimilated.

      Further baubles from said individual will simply be a marketing exercise in tapping into your consumer culture of choice, while maintaining the guise of "indie" status.

  22. Deja Vu by singingjim1 · · Score: 0

    How many times have we heard this mantra,"When will corporations (insert any other bureaucratic organization here) realize.."? And will we ever stop repeating it?

    1. Re:Deja Vu by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      When will corporations realize that we will never stop repeating the mantra of when will corporation realize that we will never stop repeating the mantra of when will corporations realize that we will never stop repeating the mantra of ....

      Arrrgggggghhhhh!

    2. Re:Deja Vu by singingjim1 · · Score: 0

      I guess I should have clarified a bit more and asked, "Will there ever be a time when there will be no more need to repeat it?"

  23. devHissyFit by obarthelemy · · Score: 3, Funny

    not to worry, clearly these jokers are very well equipped to relaunch under a new name: devHissyFit

    --
    The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
  24. And yet.. by msimm · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The OS still sucks. I'll stick with RIM/Blackberry (which also has an active and seemingly open developer community) until a Android phone I like comes along.

    And where do you get "most open phone OS"?

    --
    Quack, quack.
    1. Re:And yet.. by blincoln · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'll stick with RIM/Blackberry (which also has an active and seemingly open developer community) until a Android phone I like comes along.

      Are you posting from the mirror universe? When I had a company-provided BlackBerry, I went looking for apps. The only "free" one I found was Opera Mini, AKA Opera Please-Trust-Us-Not-To-Steal-All-Your-Personal-Data-That-Is-Being-Proxied-And-Modified-By-Our Servers-Including-HTTPS-Traffic. I tried out a couple of shareware/paid apps and was amazingly unimpressed. One was a replacement browser which managed to be even less usable than RIM's, and the other was a server-based wrapper for MS Office/OpenOffice that would take screenshots of Office docs and make them available for the phone so they'd look correct, because RIM's viewer/editor programs were so lacking in features.
      On the other hand, now that I have a G1, I've found a ton of useful, completely free applications. It doesn't have Exchange ActiveSync (yet), but since it's my personal phone I'm not in a huge hurry to get that anyway. Also, it has a browser that actually works.
      If there's a whole world of BlackBerry stuff I missed, I'd definitely be interested in hearing about it, though.

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    2. Re:And yet.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A whole world of BlackBerry stuff indeed. A whole world of applications. An "app world", if you will.

      http://appworld.blackberry.com/

    3. Re:And yet.. by zxaos · · Score: 2, Informative

      It should be noted that the "Please-Trust-Us-Not-To-Steal-All-Your-Personal-Data-That-Is-Being-Proxied-And-Modified-By-Our Servers-Including-HTTPS-Traffic" system is designed to save battery life by doing encryption on RIM servers instead of the device. It should be further noted that this is an option that can be disabled so that people who it makes uncomfortable (like you) can have it performed on their device. Seems like FUD to me.

    4. Re:And yet.. by eudaemon · · Score: 1

      Blackberries are *excellent* devices - I carried them for years. For e-mail and contact management, you can't touch them.
      Seriously - world class. The G1 although much less mature in contact management, and actively hostile towards
      e-mail carriers other than google offers a much better integration experience between the components on the phone.
      Example: installing the twitter client twidroid automatically extends the camera application's share feature to include twitter.
      Applications also play well with each other - Buddy Runner will pause playing music, speak to my mileage goal (.5 miles run, pace x.y miles
      per min) and then unpause the music. You just don't see that happening on the BBerry where everything is a separate and distinct
      application and in which only very rare cases is aware of or integrates with other apps on the phone.

    5. Re:And yet.. by 12345Doug · · Score: 1

      If you are willing to pay for exchange integration there is Touchdown from Nitrodesk that works really well. It's rather expensive compared to your normal phone app (I think I paid $25) but it works pretty seamlessly and provided good contact/google contact integration, mail, and calendaring features. Now if I could just open my power point slides on my G1. Ah well I'll keep looking.

    6. Re:And yet.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only is your information on the Blackberry out of date but you apparently don't know the difference between an "open" OS and free software to run on that OS.

    7. Re:And yet.. by k_187 · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, Opera mini is a version of the opera web browser that uses a proxy in sweeden (right? that's where they're from) to render and compress websites then shoots it to your handheld. Not that what you're talking about doesn't also happen, all BB data goes through RIM's servers in Canada, things you view in Opera Mini go through an extra step.

      --
      11 was a racehorse
      12 was 12
      1111 Race
      12112
    8. Re:And yet.. by msimm · · Score: 1

      Try again. Two of my favorites are LogicMail (POP/IMAP from anywhere) and MidpSSH (in a pinch, server management) but you can also find more at places like Sourceforge.

      --
      Quack, quack.
    9. Re:And yet.. by hkmwbz · · Score: 1

      Opera is from Norway. And Norway has some of the strictest privacy laws in the world.

      --
      Clever signature text goes here.
    10. Re:And yet.. by hkmwbz · · Score: 1

      The only "free" one I found was Opera Mini, AKA Opera Please-Trust-Us-Not-To-Steal-All-Your-Personal-Data-That-Is-Being-Proxied-And-Modified-By-Our Servers-Including-HTTPS-Traffic.

      Are you claiming that Opera can't be trusted? Opera's HQ is located in Norway, which has some of the strictest privacy laws in the world. It's definitely a trustworthy company as well. Has been around for 10-15 years, and has never done anything to comprise user privacy.

      --
      Clever signature text goes here.
    11. Re:And yet.. by k_187 · · Score: 1

      ok, a proxy server in Norway. Either way, all the stuff you view in Opera Mini goes through their servers as well as RIM's.

      --
      11 was a racehorse
      12 was 12
      1111 Race
      12112
    12. Re:And yet.. by hkmwbz · · Score: 1

      Probably just Opera's servers. But considering that Opera has been around for about 15 years and has an excellent privacy track record (and operates under some of the world's strictes privacy laws), Opera Mini is probably your last worry.

      --
      Clever signature text goes here.
    13. Re:And yet.. by mots · · Score: 1

      Actually, it does have Exchange ActiveSync if you use a modded image...

  25. Communications have not broken down with Palm by LisaBrewster · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I had a phone conversation with Pam, Palm's VP of Developer Marketing last night, and I can assure you that communication has NOT broken down between them and preDevCamp. It's unfortunate that whurley, Giovanni, and Dan had such a bad experience, but for business reasons Palm has to maintain tight secrecy until the phone is launched. The best course of action in this case is not to scold them for what they can't do for us, but work together and adjust expectations accordingly.

    Pam was very eager to know what we need to have a successful event, and I expect to have their full co-operation going forward. It just needs to be a bit more on their terms than whurley, Giovanni, and Dan anticipated.

    There's a thread open regarding preDevCamp on the Palm Developer Network forums with at least three Palm employees actively participating (VP Pam, Community Manager Chuq, and Chuq's boss). Maybe yesterday's news put the fear of God in Palm, but they're definitely willing to work with the community to ensure that preDevCamp is successful.

    1. Re:Communications have not broken down with Palm by mattisking · · Score: 1

      There's a thread open regarding preDevCamp on the Palm Developer Network forums with at least three Palm employees actively participating (VP Pam, Community Manager Chuq, and Chuq's boss).

      Got a link?

    2. Re:Communications have not broken down with Palm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Palm's developer network forums are currently open only to those that have been accepted into the SDK early access program.

    3. Re:Communications have not broken down with Palm by LisaBrewster · · Score: 1

      Only those with access to the Mojo Early Access program can see this, but there's the link: https://prerelease.palm.com/clearspace_community/message/1833

      And I stand corrected regarding which Palm employees are participating. Pam is Chuq's boss...Dave Weddle is just some bloke. ^_^

  26. Re:Maximizing short term or long term profits by vertinox · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Corporations maximize shareholder value, and then we, as shareholders, determine whether that value is used for good or for evil. Sorry- not all of that was directed at you, just the definitional part at the beginning.

    I think a lot of companies fail to realize that short term profit maximization often is contrary to long term profit maximization.

    Sure, they could make a lot more money being bastards to their community and suing their customers and competitors, but over long term they will loose "good will" and suffer long term profits.

    Personally, I'd rather own shares in a company that treats its employees, customers, and community with respect simply because that will mean they'll be around in 20 years with maximized gains.

    --
    "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
    -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
  27. The Idiocy Of Slashdot Right There by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Idiot writes blatantly false Slashdot headline.

    Another idiot(the OP) without bothering to read the bullshit story sees this as opportunity to spew random garbage supporting their retarded agenda.

    A bunch of other idiots with mod points who didn't bother to read all the posts shooting down the bullshit story summary and went right ahead and modded up the OP's inane ramblings.

    Welcome to Slashdot.

  28. Re:Maximizing short term or long term profits by gravesb · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Very true, and I wish more large shareholders--pension plans, for example--would do so. The problem is when a majority shareholder wants a large, short term profit and pressures the company to maximize short term value. The board can hide behind the business judgement rule, but then the shareholder will replace them with someone who will maximize profits in the short term.

    --
    http://bgcommonsense.blogspot.com
  29. Hopefully they get a clue. by magnusrex1280 · · Score: 1

    Hopefully this action by Palm will severely limit the amount of developmer response, and Palm will learn a harsh lesson.

  30. Where's the News Here? by automag · · Score: 1

    Palm sabotages itself by making stupid and shortsighted decisions that are likely to cost them in the long-run? Where's the news here? This has been Palm's m.o. since the mid-90s... Is it any wonder that they continue to be an 'also-ran' in a market which they used to dominate? Next.

    --
    ---As my daddy used to tell me: "You gotta be smart before you can be a smartass."
  31. NDA's are worthless if nobody cares. by DocSavage64109 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In enforcing their precious NDA, hasn't Palm just turned off the entire community and made their NDA moot? It seems to me that there are too many alternative phone O.S's to risk alienating their community over trivial matters. In fact, this looks to me like they have things to hide.

    1. Re:NDA's are worthless if nobody cares. by 2short · · Score: 1

      "In enforcing their precious NDA, hasn't Palm just turned off the entire community and made their NDA moot?"

      The point of an NDA is not generally any fear of or potential beef with the person who signed it. Rather, if some third party steals your trade secret, and you want to sue them for doing so, you must establish that the information they stole was actually a trade secret. One condition of establishing that is showing that you were actually trying to protect the information from disclosure; e.g. by requiring and enforcing NDAs from anyone you shared the information with.

      So even if you don't think someone is going to steal your info, you have a significant interest in having them sign an NDA, and in enforcing it, so you can use that against other people who might steal your secrets.

      Anyway, what community? Some guys who hadn't done (or even had the chance to do) anything but sign an NDA and immediately twittering in violation of it? They're no value to Palm so far, and have made themselves a liability.

    2. Re:NDA's are worthless if nobody cares. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once you sign an NDA you are no longer part of the community, you're a sock puppet.

  32. NDA didn't include talking about metting by Benanov · · Score: 1, Interesting

    NDA never mentioned talking about the meeting. Palm just got some major pucker factor.

    1. Re:NDA didn't include talking about metting by LWATCDR · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You have the NDA?
      Palm has a huge stake in the Pre. Right now the company is ridding on it and it has not been released yet.
      Again it is all just fluff and bother for now. These guys just wanted to get in first and become the place for Pre stuff and probably generate ad revenue.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    2. Re:NDA didn't include talking about metting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are operating under NDA with a 3rd party, you don't discuss any goings ons with that party in a public forum. That in itself violates the NDA. The palmDevCamp guys screwed up and now they're whining about it. Besides, all they did was cancel a freakin' meeting.

      Ryan-

    3. Re:NDA didn't include talking about metting by pintpusher · · Score: 1

      I've never operated under an NDA, so help me out with this. The way I've read a lot of this, operating under an NDA puts you in this situation:

      you: "What's up today?"
      me: "Can't tell you..."
      you: "Orly? Why not?"
      me: "Can't tell you..."
      you: "Heh, okaaaayyy... So want to hook up later? What time are you free?"
      me: "Sure, maybe 5:00"
      you: "cool.."
      me: "Hey can you give me a ride?"
      you: "Sure, where're we going?"
      me: "Can't tell you..."

      it's absurd.

      THe conversation should realistically be more like this:

      you: "What's up today?"
      me: "Oh, I've got a meeting with the palm folks"
      you: "oh cool, that's right you're working on the preDevCamp thingy"
      me: "yeah."
      you: "so what's the meeting about?"
      me: "Can't say, I'm under an NDA"
      you: "oh cool. ..."

      The point is that these guys were working on palm stuff! What's the big secret? It's not like they're working for the competition and going to the meeting is itself a secret. It's damn silly, IMO.

      and to be clear, I'm not affiliated in anyway despite what you might think from the dialog above.

      --
      man, I feel like mold.
  33. Summary is a little inaccurate by docbrody · · Score: 1

    The summary is a little inaccurate if your read the underlying blog it links to. Mod me down if you think I am nit picking, but "legal posturing" is not exactly a fair characterization. Its not like they threatend to sue, they just canceled a meeting.

    These guys signed an NDA, then turned around and tweeted to the world that they had a confidential meeting. Maybe Palm over-reacted, but its kind of dick move to tweet about a confidentil meeting.

  34. Palm has been generally neutral towards my site by kenyoung77 · · Score: 1

    I created a small community site focused on webOS development and so far Palm has been pretty much hands off, as I expected they would be. Chuq, the Palm developer community manager, has posted in the forums a couple of times, but I believe it was primarily because I had asked people to discuss whether they had been accepted to the Mojo early access program and he was just letting people know that they were watching, in case anyone was thinking of breaking their NDA. But other than that they have been content to let us exist peacefully, promoting the webOS platform in the absence of real developer tools. I hope this whole preDevCamp debacle boils down to a simple misunderstanding that got blown out of proportion. It would be a shame for the platform to die when it has some genuinely innovative features. More competition pushing the envelope is always good.

    1. Re:Palm has been generally neutral towards my site by tchapin · · Score: 1

      If there's no real information about the platform and no dev tools yet released, what exactly is there to promote? That's the problem I have with the hype, like over at treonauts.com.

      I've been a Palm owner for a long time (7 devices, from the Pro to the 700p), and this summer I suspect that I'm going to get an iPhone. I got excited about the Pre when it was first announced, but there's been such a paucity of actual information that's reliable, that I haven't been able to stay excited, or even interested. In addition, Palm's support for their devices has grown to be horrible. I think my each of my Treos only ever got one firmware upgrade apiece.

      A lot of the iPhone's continued success has been the app store. Sure, it could be better organized, and the rules for app approval could be more clear and less capricious, but overall it's been a success.

      I was interested in Android, as a Sprint phone would supposedly be forthcoming, but that hasn't materialized, and there hasn't been a critical mass of apps. I suspect that with shenanigans like this, there won't be for the Pre either. And that's why I won't be getting the phone, even if it is awesome. Perhaps when my contract w/ ATT runs out in 2 years, the ecosystem will be different and I'll make a different choice. Who knows?

      I've been happy with Sprint overall, but feel that they do little to try to keep someone as a customer. Additionally, their phone selection has historically been pathetic.

      --
      -- !todd erases a red dot! I steal music on the internet.
  35. Palm pissed me off years ago... by advocate_one · · Score: 2, Insightful

    when they made it ridiculously hard to develop apps on any platform other than Windows...

    --
    Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    1. Re:Palm pissed me off years ago... by advocate_one · · Score: 1
      I don't give a fig about any other vendor... I was quite happily developing apps for Palm using Gnu tool chain & the Pose emulator to test my code on and then they made the new version windows only which meant that to continue developing apps for the new palms would have meant buying a windows machine.

      It was only a little sideline... brought in some money, but the extra cost required to get hold of a windows license just to carry on developing for Palm meant I was not happy at all... especially as I had purged myself of all windows boxes back in 99 and was quite happy using Linux.

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
  36. Maybe they are going after BB instead of Apple by MazzThePianoman · · Score: 1

    While the number of applications available for Blackberry has been growing their success was not because of the number of applications but the quality of the core system, phone/email/web etc. Instead of going after Apple and their app store Palm might rather be wanting to specialize, like Blackberry did, to refine, and dominate the business user market with good core functionality.

    --
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Franklin
  37. maybe a merger is in order by OnePumpChump · · Score: 1

    Sounds like they'd be a good fit for Creative Labs.

  38. Palm is finished.. throw them on the cart by xtal · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Palm has gone the way of all cool tech companies that get taken over by suits and forget their markets. Instead of spending the time to invest in a next-generation handheld - the palm V, in ~2000, and figure this out then they did more of the same, and released bigger, power sucking devices that forgot the real utility needed.

    I owned a USR Palm, a Palm Pro, a Palm III, a m500, a m505, and a Tungsten. I loved their early API. Now.. why bother?

    The Pre has no chance. If they cared about their shareholders, they would sell the company and refund the money with a "Sorry for being stupid" letter.

    Apple has provided a unified platform, a brilliant storefront, and hardware people are willing to pay a premium for - providing them the margin they need to stay ahead of the game.

    Palm's advantage is what, exactly?

    --
    ..don't panic
    1. Re:Palm is finished.. throw them on the cart by CAOgdin · · Score: 1

      Palm has snatched defeat from certain victory about every six months since they started. When they split into two companies with the fantasy of licensing their O.S. to the cellphone community, I knew they were dead; nobody is going to do business with such an antedeluvian management. It appears to me they know nothing about marketing, nothing about support, and--progressively--less and less about designing products people want to buy. And, when they do put in features, they seldom work (ever tried WiFi from a Palm Tungsten?). The company is led by greedy, stupid people who's only consistency is their stoopidity. This is just another nail in their self-built coffin. And, yes, I still keep my Tungsten C's in good working order, and since spares now cost me only about $50, I expect my use of the Tungsten will outlive the company itself. From the trenches of modern technology, --Carol Anne

  39. Palm Business Model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Palm Business Model - have one great idea, milk it to death, shoot self in foot, repeat. Non back-compatibility of WebOS and crap like this story make me believe that the Treo in my hand will be my final Palm product.

  40. Yeah, but it sucks by footnmouth · · Score: 1

    I've used it both on touch screen and keyboard driven phones and each time it's led to a Basil Fawlty-esque anger management problem on my part.

    It looks great, but in my experience it's always been too slow to respond to user commands, a better PDA than phone and the most annoying thing (that I've ranted about before) is the fact that it constantly pops up windows to tell me it's found a wireless network, or that a memory card is full, or... in the middle of a call, in the middle of writing an SMS, nope, it doesn't care - here's my modal window for you to disrupt your day for the 27th time.

    For Slashdot I'm actually probably not that anti-MS - my company's an MS partner and I run Windows for servers and PCs (while preferring Linux - I was brought up on Solaris and HP-UX so...), and I even did Windows API programming back in the days of NT, but as a phone OS, CE / Mobile currently sucks.

    Now my new Blackberry Curve - man alive I never realised a phone could be a PDA and work at the same time.

    --
    -- For evil to triumph it is enough that good men do nothing.
  41. Who gives a shit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Palm Pre-gnant is pre-tarded, and I'm pre-fectly pre-lighted to see it pre-cluded from pre-vailing in the marketplace.

  42. They are trying to be open because they screwed up by WarlockD · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Have you seen how many apps are out ofr Symbian now vs just 4 years ago? They GUTTED their user base when they started to charge for it. You still can't get a developer to reply to you unless you pay them a butt load of cash. Palm did the same think Nokia has done. Their developers are not allowed to release software for their own store site, they are NEVER going to develop a good UI that rivels the G1 or the iPhone.

    Not to mention the SDK is a pice of crap. My Windows Mobile 6.1 phone is not great. It randomly freezes, apps sometimes drain the battery, but when I can fire up a copy of C# express and make an app, it makes up for all of it.

    Sigh. Sad part was I was really looking at a Palm Pre because of the WebOS. Seems like thats off the table. God I wish the G1 came CDMA.

  43. Well, speaking as an iPhone fan by weston · · Score: 1

    I'm going to preface this comment by saying that I'm more or less an iPhone fan. I think it's a great convergence device, that it deserves a lot of its hype, that Cocoa Touch is a pretty awesome development platform, and that anybody who pooh-poohs it (and in particular, says stupid things like "It's just a fashion accessory") may be mentally handicapped in some way (and there are a lot of people regularly posting on Slashdot whose handicap is more or less that they can't understand that a product may have real merit if it doesn't fit *their* priorities).

    That said, when I first saw the Pre previews, I was pretty impressed about a number of things:

    1) Built with multitasking as a core design element. Whether that turns out to have negative tradeoffs (say, with battery life) is an open question, but it's pretty interesting. iPhone OS 3 will have push notification, which sortof enables similar things, but it's looking like Palm will beat them to market.

    2) Hard keyboard. It's pretty much a personal preference thing (some people like the touch-screen keyboard just fine, some people just don't care), but for those who really want physical buttons, it's potentially compelling.

    3) Development platform. HTML/CSS + Javascript API? If you're a web developer -- and there's more than a handful of those -- you now have a platform pretty much made for you, minimal investment needed. This is the first concept I've seen that I think is going to really challenge Cocoa Touch in terms of popularity with developers, and it has potential to be huge. Oh, I suppose Android might be bigger, if for some reason this flops, but if I were betting, I'd put my money on Apple and Palm. Plus, it can run existing Palm apps, giving it a legacy application base from the get-go.

    4) Sprint's Data Network. Arguably, it has broader coverage and performs better than AT&T's, which makes sense, given that Sprint's been serious about data for a long time now. Heck, EVDO-Rev A almost has low enough latency to support VOIP, but the bottom line is that smart phones also tend to be bought for data-centric uses, so a really strong data network is a big bonus.

    5) Swappable battery. Not just useful when you decide two years down the road you don't want to send it in to the manufacturer or DIY hack. Also nice if you'd just like to have a little extra juice.

    All of this might not add up to a decisive edge in the market against some other impressive products, including the iPhone. But a lot of people -- particularly here on slashdot -- make the mistake of becoming blind to the iPhone's merits because its feature set isn't precisely targeted to their preferences... especially if they've got some other product in mind which is more closely matched. That's exactly how you want to think about choices on a personal level, but when you're thinking about industry-level trends, it's a mistake, and it's pretty easy to see that the critics of the iPhone are pretty much wrong when it comes to the market success of the device. The Pre is not the iPhone, the iPhone has a lot going for it, you may even really love the iPhone. That doesn't mean the Pre's feature set might not be appealing to other people or make it a huge success. There is room enough in this town for more than one smartphone.

  44. Only to the shareholder? Way to FAIL... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As a corporation, I acknowledge that Palm's only responsibility is to its shareholders.

    It's funny how people sometimes do not think around the next corner. Most of the time, I see half-baked thoughts, that never got thought to the end, because... well... thinking is uncool??

    What do they think, that the shareholders want? More money.
    And how to they think they get more money? By having more customers, who pay more.

    Well... why would potential customers buy more from them? Because they offer them what they want. (Aka realize their dreams and hopes.)

    But nowadays it's all: Just screw 'em over, and then bind them with the most expensive hidden fees, plans and contracts.

    I remember, how an ex-coworker of mine took over the shopping portal of a large Internet portal. He single-handedly made it boom like crazy.
    People wanted to know, how he did it.
    His secret? Make them happy. Even if it costs more in the beginning.
    Not only did he try to fulfill the wishes of the customers. No. He also made all the business partners / suppliers happy. They had a wish? He was there. He gave them little presents. They gave him some. (Like better offers, better deals.) It was like real friendships. Sometimes suppliers just called him to chat and crack jokes.
    Others would have said, that this was bad. But he did not. He knew how to let it grow.
    And he was proven right.

    Nowadays he works for ebay, and has tons of cash. And he really earned it... instead of tricking people into traps.
    The word earning really has lost its meaning. :(

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  45. Not all hope is lost by dancrumb · · Score: 5, Informative

    As one of the founders of preDevCamp, I have to counter the OP's ominous analysis of the situation. While this "seems to have gutted the founders of any and all enthusiasm they may have once had", I'd like to assure you that I still am enthusiastic for the platform. I still believe that bringing HTML/JS/CSS into the realm of mobile development will make a great impact on this field. I'm still committed to seeing preDevCamp through and making it the biggest and best DevCamp possible.

  46. Knuckle shuffle by giorgist · · Score: 1

    I thought this was a knuckle shuffle group accident !!

  47. It's all about who the Alpha is in the room. . . by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1

    Corporations only feel safe when they are in control.

    A group of self-motivated individuals working independently of the Corporation are THREATENING because they are not under any direct control by the company, and if their movement grows influential enough, it can start to dictate to the corporation what it ought to do. And those things might not be in the corporation's best interest. They might be in the interests of the people. (Horrors!!!)

    And so, the corporation doesn't care if it destroys its market base through the issuance of infantile legal notices, because failure is worse than being under the yoke of humans. A corporation under human control is not a corporation at all. It is a co-operative. It's open source. It's pinko commie something or other. . . Whatever it is, it's frickin' scary to those who want to enslave others and enrich themselves and move into gated communities, (where apparently, the American Dream lives.)

    --This is all especially so for a large and well-established corporate body. It can afford to lose a little business by pissing off the fringe of fans because it KNOWS it can simply program a bevy of mindless drones to become new fans; it's easy! Just give running shoes to inner city black kids, or whatever. That's the job of the Public Relations department, and we know it works, because people wear stupid clothes and eat toxic shit because they are told to. So really. . , fans? They're the disease! They're an unruly gob of humanity motivated by passion and not by corporate marketing science. Fuck them! In the schizoid world of the Corporate marketing world, the most intense fans are the worst kind of customer. They are motivated by Love! And everybody knows that given the choice between being Loved and Feared, the Alpha In The Room will choose to dominate rather than establish any sort of healthy human relations.

    Sigh.

    Establishing control over the weak is the post-coital pleasure for any large beast of prey. And Corporations are Sharks.

    -FL

  48. it's how things work in big business. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "I acknowledge that Palm's only responsibility is to its shareholders. There's nothing self serving or evil about that; it's how things work in big business."

    Who writes crap like that? It may or may not be self-serving but most certainly *is* evil. In fact, it is by definition evil. A corporation can take no action based on morals- because its only reason to be is to create profit. Its *only* has a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders.

    Think about that. If corporations could gut babies and sell their spleens at a profit they would- and would be *have to*. Certain legalities are the only thing stopping them- NOT a moral compunction that it might possibly be wrong to gut babies for profit...

    The essence of evil is not necessarily wicked or bad actions- it is the absolute amoralism of the actions- regardless of their outcomes. Show me a corporation passing up on a buck to do something *good* and I will show you a shareholder lawsuit/laid-off CEO.

  49. No kidding... by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    I was at an iPhone dev camp before the NDA was lifted. If people can make THAT work, the palm guys have zero issues.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:No kidding... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you share how the logistics worked taking into account there was an NDA? How did you make sure there were no leaks?

  50. Big fingers by DrYak · · Score: 1

    I will be very impressed by anyone who proves me wrong!

    Some people are cursed or blessed (depending of point of view) with big hands and huge fingers.

    In this case, it's hard to hit the smallish button of micro-keyboards without regular mistakes.
    Whereas the Graffiti is written with a stylus (or a fingernail's tip) and is less dependent on the size of the holder's hands.

    As the other user said your mileage may vary. Some people do prefer different input methods than you and by cloning the blackberry's look, Palm lost an opportunity to be different and attract users more interested in bigger screens.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  51. Re:Maximizing short term or long term profits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    kinda tired of this "the market cures all ills" philosophy. in my mind it's roughly equivalent to "we all die someday".

    the freemarket works only when barriers to entry into a market are kept at a minimum. and nobody is allowed to reach a "too large to fail" size. it invariably breaks otherwise.

  52. Well, what then? by KlaymenDK · · Score: 1

    Sorry nerds, the best way to drive success is to dangle shiny bobbles in front of the plebes, and charge them out the ass for it.
    Deal with it.

    That might be the true reason why this story landed on Slashdot ... that we are not that willing to be charged out of the ass for shiny bobbles, and are actually trying to deal with it.

    Me, I'm taking a good long look around the pda/smartphone market. Alas, what I have found so far is that the best thing out there is --well, was-- the PalmOS platform.
    Now that that is thoroughly dying, what's the next best alternative?

    OpenMoko?
    Nope. It's a fine project, but really: it's not yet capable of even a simple phone call.

    iPhone?
    Nope. It's very much the aforementioned 'shiny bobbles' concept, and very closed to tinker with. Note that I'm not saying it's not possible, just that it's closed and you have to 'break' it to do it. Besides, you more or less need a Mac to develop for it, which is quite a steep entry cost.

    Windows Mobile?
    You're kidding, right?

    Android?
    Perhaps. I speak for nobody else, but personally I'm one of those luddites who some years ago began to be quite a bit uncomfortable with the sheer size and power of Google, so Android is not going on my phone.

    Symbian?
    Perhaps. It's not quite as closed down as the iPhone, and it does have a large user base, but 3rd-party apps and dev tools are still scarce compared to the PalmOS community. There's also some form of required membership or application certification that I'm not done looking into.

    Others?
    I'm sure there are some other platforms that I've not listed here.

    1. Re:Well, what then? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Typical /. post.
      Windows Mobile is the best option.

      It works just as well as any other phone OS (or "platform").
      If you don't like it, change it.
      If you want an app, buy it.
      If you want an app, but don't want to pay, steal it.
      If said app doesn't exist, make it.

      The strength of Windows Mobile is the fact that there are endless hacks for it and there are tons of people using it and fiddling with it (in a developer sense).

      The physical design of phone will affect your usability orders of magnitude more than the underlying OS. I don't give a shit what OS my phone has.
      I demand a full qwerty keyboard first and foremost.
      I demand a LACK of touchscreen bullshit (having one is fine, but everything sure as hell better navigable/usable without it).
      I demand shit that doesn't flip or slide or do some other bullshit that will just be one more thing to break.
      Etc.

      By far the most important application any phone can offer (beyond the phone/address book functions, obviously) is a good web browser. 99% of what's on sale for the iPhone is stupid shit that should be a stupid shitty web page.

      You dismiss Windows Mobile because it's Windows.
      Yet, and this might hurt your head, it is the best choice if you want to be "free" and still have an assload of options available to you. You can pay for them or not, and you can justify your behavior by saying they are or are not just baubles.

    2. Re:Well, what then? by KlaymenDK · · Score: 1

      "Windows Mobile is the best option"
      All my friends' experiences with WinMo involve lockups and reboots several times per week. Coming from a Palm platform (heck, any platform), that's just unacceptable.

      "If said app doesn't exist, make it."
      I don't suppose you can point me to a cross-platform development environment, then? Seriously. That would score some good points for this option.

      "If you want an app, but don't want to pay, steal it."
      I'll just pretend you didn't write that. Why the hell do you think I'm using a free (as in, any way you like) OS at home? A certain somebody keeps suggesting I should just install his MacOSX on my pc so that I can program for the (his?) iPhone, but that's just not going to happen.

      "I demand a LACK of touchscreen bullshit (having one is fine, but everything sure as hell better navigable/usable without it)."
      I don't know how much experience you have with PalmOS or Epoc (what later became Symbian), but it sounds you've only tried some comparatively poor alternatives. Touch screens *are* useful. However, having a number of hardbuttons is vital.

      "I demand shit that doesn't flip or slide or do some other bullshit that will just be one more thing to break."
      If I read your post correctly, you want a full-size qwerty keyboard on a non-collapsible device? That sounds awfully big (I mean, when you're not using it and it's in your pocket).
      The Psion Series 5 has been notorious for wearing out the screen ribbon cable after some years(!) of opening and closing, so I do see your point.
      I'm just saying that, for me, the Palm T3 was the best darn PDA I ever had -- huge screen when you looked at it, but it collapsed together when you put it back in the pocket. I didn't really miss a keyboard because its handwriting recognition was solid, fast, and adaptable to my handwriting. That is not bullshit, that is practical.

      "By far the most important application any phone can offer (beyond the phone/address book functions, obviously) is a good web browser."
      Again, to each his own. I fully agree that storing your contacts, along with a calendar, is *the* thing a PDA needs to do. On that note, it seems that Symbian is shooting itself in the foot, because the address book is actually more of a phone book -- names and numbers, but no provision for storing addresses, dates, or personal notes. Too bad, really, that all the good PDA makers are focusing on phones these days.
      My usage pattern is probably different (less web-enabled) than yours, but my second most important tool is not a browser but an outliner; that is, a glorified to-do list, project manager, and plain text editor (if you want to get specific about it, something like Natara's "Bonsai" or Llama Graphics' "Life Balance"). Actually, I get along quite well without web access.

      "You dismiss Windows Mobile because it's Windows."
      No I don't; I see I should have elaborated that point. Sorry.
      The reason I dismiss it is because it's slow, expensive, and, most of all, unstable. Those are objective reasons.
      I dismiss the iPhone because it's Apple, even though I freely admit that the UI and appearance are second to none -- that is deliberately philosophical.

    3. Re:Well, what then? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      My phone has locked up 3 times in over 2 years of owning it. Less than any other phone I've seen.

      Cross platform development? Java?
      And why does it need to be cross platform? The other big boys certainly aren't.

      "Why the hell do you think I'm using a free (as in, any way you like) OS at home?" Because you don't like paying for shit and you have an irrational hatred of Microsoft. Also, you are a young male nerd who's time is worth very little, so you can waste it on Linux.

      "Touch screens *are* useful. However, having a number of hardbuttons is vital."
      I should be able to use the entire phone without touching the damned touch screen at all. Same goes with mice. I don't know about you, but I use my keyboard for just about everything. The mouse comes into play for idle shit, such as games and fucking around on the web.
      It's a preference, but it's also a usability issue. Buttons are by far more reliable than touch screens. And if my touchscreen breaks, I want to still be able to use my phone.

      "That sounds awfully big"
      Nope. Check out the BlackJack, BlackJack II or SamsungEpix (BlackJack 3 basically). Full qwerty. Nice size. None of this half qwerty shit that one blackberry tried to pull.

      Windows Mobile isn't that slow. It's no more unstable than any other phone I've tried. Expensive? It was free, and the phones with it are all priced lower than comparable blackberrys/etc.

      I dismiss Apple because they're Apple, too. But I dismiss Apple in general because I hate their design, I hate their build quality, and I hate their lack of customer service. Apple Care my ass, they'll still charge you a billion dollars to fix something that was their fault, and deny it all the way to the bank.

    4. Re:Well, what then? by KlaymenDK · · Score: 1

      My phone has locked up 3 times in over 2 years of owning it. Less than any other phone I've seen.

      Duly noted, that is good.

      Cross platform development? Java?
      And why does it need to be cross platform? The other big boys certainly aren't.

      Well obviously, so that I am not forced to install a particular OS in order to write those missing apps.
      I can accept not getting the full use (desktop companion, backup) out of it, but not being able to write new software is a major roadblock.
      True enough, the (current) 'big boys' aren't cross platform -- not that that's a very good argument. You could, though, write PalmOS apps on BSD and Linux, and you certainly will be able to write WebOS apps using anything.

      "Why the hell do you think I'm using a free (as in, any way you like) OS at home?" Because you don't like paying for shit and you have an irrational hatred of Microsoft. Also, you are a young male nerd who's time is worth very little, so you can waste it on Linux.

      Frankly, I take offence at this.
      True, I have no desire to pay for shit; I expel more of my own than I care to keep.
      Software, though, has a price that can be compared to its value, and Windows, along with the Office suite, just don't tip the balance for me.
      As for the 'irrational hatred', when have you ever seen me write "Micro$oft", or otherwise come across as hateful? I dislike Windows first and foremost for its security faults, and I consider the overall business strategy and conduct of Microsoft rather unappealing -- but not much worse than average, really.
      As for time spent, I have not stated anything. I'm sure a Windows user also needs to spend a certain amount of time to keep up with system updates and so on, but beyond that it's individual how much 'tinker time' is really required. I spend very little. In any case, putting a price on one's spare time is missing the point; any hobby could be considered an utter waste of time by a non-hobbyist.
      What I'm saying is this: You don't know me. Please refrain from personal attacks, and stay on topic. Thank you.

      I dismiss Apple because they're Apple, too. But I dismiss Apple in general because I hate their design, I hate their build quality, and I hate their lack of customer service. Apple Care my ass, they'll still charge you a billion dollars to fix something that was their fault, and deny it all the way to the bank.

      Now who is spouting irrational hatred? ;-) But really, you're entitled to that outlook and I'm not going to argue.

      "Touch screens *are* useful. However, having a number of hardbuttons is vital."
      I should be able to use the entire phone without touching the damned touch screen at all. [...] It's a preference, but it's also a usability issue.

      It's good that we agree that it's a personal choice.

      "That sounds awfully big"
      Nope. Check out the BlackJack, BlackJack II or Samsung Epix (BlackJack 3 basically). Full qwerty. Nice size. None of this half qwerty shit that one blackberry tried to pull.

      Oh I see! You're right of course, chicklet-size keyboards aren't very big, and T9-keypads aren't proper keyboards. I just understood from your post a full *size* keyboard that you could touch type on (as with the Psions). I'll take a look at them, if I can get hold of them here.

      Windows Mobile isn't that slow. It's no more unstable than any other phone I've tried.

      Well, my experience differs. I expect a PIM to load any standard app within fractions of a second (as is the norm with rom-based devices running real-time operating systems); it seems to me that on WinMo, it takes a few (just a few) seconds to switch between applications. That's not an eternity, but just too slow for the instant response I expect from a good pda.

      Expensive? It was free, and the phones w

    5. Re:Well, what then? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      None of the phones I mentioned use T9, they are full qwerty keyboards, with very usably-sized buttons.

      So your only complaints are speed and security.
      I take it you've had viruses and information leaks from your windows mobile phone? I take it you've used a wide variety of equally-priced phones and tested the speed? Smells like bullshit dude.

      Price? What the fuck are you talking about. Look at phone prices. Compare some phones of similar hardware and differing OSs.

    6. Re:Well, what then? by KlaymenDK · · Score: 1

      Hey, now you listen. I've been polite and to the point throughout, and you're talking bullshit.

      No, I have not tried a multitude of Windows phones, because you can't exactly borrow them to take them for a test drive, can you? All you can do is feel up the fake ones at the store, with they toy screens. You can't ask the salespeople if there's a proper phone book with birthday and anniversary and note fields, or how you access 3rd-party apps or how they integrate with the OS, or if the handwriting recognition is full-screen or confined to that little corner down there, or if it can be adapted to your personal handwriting or if it can be extended with aliases and macros, or how long the battery life really is if you don't friggin' Facebook (that's a verb now, apparently) all day long, or how long the GPS takes to acquire a lock, or if you can reassign the hardbuttons or how long it takes for one of the standard PIM apps to start up, because all they know is what is says on the tin, and that's all about the megapixels and the replaceable fashion covers and matching key chains.

      All I want is for the dog-gamned PDA companies to build a dog-gamned PDA, preferably with a phone in it but I'm flexible on that point. You'd think it's not that hard, but they are really trying to look past all their experience and put out crummy consumer-grade shite.

      End of discussion. Don't bother answering because I won't bother to read it.

    7. Re:Well, what then? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      No, I have not tried a multitude of Windows phones, because you can't exactly borrow them to take them for a test drive, can you?

      So you admit you have limited experience, and then you claim you can't test drive them?
      Ask a friend, go to any fucking phone store, hell, BUY a phone. You get like 30 days to return it no questions asked, even when you're contracted out the ass.
      You're a moron and a bigot.

  53. Spoke too soon by Kohenkatz · · Score: 1

    Palm released a blog post today saying that they are sorry they overreacted and are now working with preDevCamp. See it at http://pdnblog.palm.com/2009/05/a-predevcamp-update/

    1. Re:Spoke too soon by ggallucci · · Score: 1

      For clarification, since the NDA is the main thing being discussed on most posts on the web. We were very specific and direct with Aaron Hyde that we signed the NDA to cover the release date of the phone. Nothing else. The fact the the meeting was taking place or that we had an NDA was absolutely not part of the agreement. Second point, Paul Cousineau and Chuq Von Rospach at Palm had asked us on a previous call to make sure the community knew they were talking to us. They were held under some tight restrictions about what they could say to the public, for obvious reasons, and had asked us to be sure the developer community knew they were engaged. It appears that the two competing needs (communication to the community that Palm was talking to the independent developers via preDevCamp and secrecy) driven by separate camps clashed. This, coupled with our frustrations based upon some other issues in our relationship with Palm led to the decisions by whurley and myself to exit the scene. The worldwide movement we created under the preDevCamp banner is, by design, intact and all local groups, as far as I can tell, are still planning their individual events. Last point, Palm gets it now... Pam Deziel, VP of Developer Marketing, responded on the Palm Developer Network blog this morning about the situation: "We overreacted to the whole disclosure issue. Weâ(TM)ve been in stealth and super secret mode for so long now, we needed a real world conversation to see how we needed to work things so everybody can operate in their own environment." "Iâ(TM)m optimistic that we can find a good solution. And weâ(TM)re going to keep talking. Weâ(TM)d love to get your two cents, concerns, and suggestions â" feel free to join the conversation here, and be assured that even when we sometimes have to keep quiet, weâ(TM)re always listening to your ideas." Read the whole post here: http://pdnblog.palm.com/2009/05/a-predevcamp-update/ Whurley and I are here to serve the community, not the corporation. When it became obvious that we needed to make a bold move to get Palm's attention on behalf of preDevCamp, we moved. Whether you agree with our tactics or not, Palm is seriously paying attention to you now. Dan Rumney will insure that the movement has one single point of leadership to the extent that a large, worldwide movement needs it. The end result has been a more active, genuine, serious relationship between Palm and its independent developer community. Everyone wins. This is what we, as leaders of the preDevCamp movement, hoped to create in the beginning. It looks like we're here now. Anyone want to talk to me about it personally, feel free to catch me on twitter http://twitter.com/giovanni, email at predevcamp(@)gallucci(dot)net or leave a comment on my original post http://blog.gallucci.net/2009/05/palm-doesnt-get-it.html I'm thinking it's water under the bridge now. Nothing to see here. Go forth and develop. I'm going camping: http://dallas.wordcamp.org/ -giovanni http://twitter.com/giovanni

  54. As a corporation, by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    I acknowledge that Palm's only responsibility is to its shareholders.

    No. As a corporation with limited liability for it's owners, the stockholders, it has the responsibility to improve the common or public good. That was the only reason businesses were ever given limited liability. Because they were anti-democratic Thomas Jefferson said of corporations: "I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country."

    Falcon

  55. I believe by LOLoDEN · · Score: 0

    I believe these countries have gurus who can grab open source software and end up build a versatile system. Who the hell needs Microsoft? It could be Jabber all the way. http://mazok.ucoz.com/

  56. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 0

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  57. Real story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it was a big misunderstanding that blew up. When the preDevCamp guys violated NDA, Palm said they wanted to cancel the NDA in total, canceling their private meeting. The preDevCamp guys seem to have interpreted this as Palm backing out of supporting them and each did smear posts. Palm, however, simply meant they wanted to work without NDAs and just use public information and do want to support preDevCamp. Palm and the preDevCamp guys have since worked things out:

    http://www.precentral.net/rocky-road-predecamp-it-keeps-trucking
    http://predevcamp.org/2009/05/23/palm-supports-predevcamp/

  58. Open? Where is the license? by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Incompetence enforcing closed licenses is not openness.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  59. Because it is authentically user friendly by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    You type faster than you write because you are a nerd (no offence intended, clearly it is a matter of fact).

    Palm correctly discovered that such input method was the most user friendly around.

    Most people understand hand writing, even if you have to tweak it slightly to accommodate the device.

    Unfortunately they followed the lesser players in the field ( up to the iPhone, whose text inputting is completely atrocious).

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  60. When people write they are not racing. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Why do you insist about speed?

    When designing a device you offer usability, speed is a nice thing to provide, but frankly one prefers to provide something familiar.

    Keyboards, specially in such small devices, are not user friendly (they come in all kind of presentations, from T9 arrangements with predictive test, to QWERTY that is not quite the same, to worst arrangements (like all the letters in alphabetic order).

    The Palm solution used what any newcomers would know how to do: writing. There should be no wonder the the Nintendo DS draws from that same conclusion in some of their most popular games.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.