Company Claims EEG Scans Can Help Identify ADHD

Al writes "Technology Review has an article about a company hoping to expand the clinical use of electroencephalography. Thanks to better sensor technologies, data-processing techniques, and more detailed knowledge of the brain, EEG is expanding into completely new areas. A startup called ElMindA, is developing an EEG system to help doctors diagnose attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). Scientists have also used ElMindA's system to characterize brain-activity patterns in patients with ADHD, identifying statistical parameters that differ between normal people and those with ADHD." If "normal people" can sit through high-school classes without being distracted and grumpy, count me out.

Comments

get rid of shitty teachers

[pak9rabid]

As someone who's been 'diagnosed' with ADHD, I can confidently say that the solution to this 'problem' isn't putting kids on amphetamines, it's to fire the horrible teachers that make learning a horrible, horrible chore.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Spazztastic]

As someone who's been 'diagnosed' with ADHD, I can confidently say that the solution to this 'problem' isn't putting kids on amphetamines, it's to fire the horrible teachers that make learning a horrible, horrible chore.

I agree. I was 'diagnosed' with it as well. As long as I had a very interesting teacher I was attentive. Interesting can be replaced with "attractive and female," as well.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Ethanol-fueled]

it's to fire the horrible teachers that make learning a horrible, horrible chore.

No, fire the higher-ups who insist that schools must cater to the lowest common denominator and teach to the standardized test.

...And bring back the paddle.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Akido37]

Is it the teachers that are shitty, or is it an educational system that demands teachers teach a certain way?

Anecdotally, a community college professor in my area (who holds a PhD) was fired because his classes were "too interactive", and he allowed students to "ask too many questions". To me, it sounds like he was doing his job: Helping the students learn.

In his case, the college wanted professors to stick to the lesson plan that had been handed down from the administration.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who is in those classes, I say don't bring back the paddle.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[jellomizer]

It is a million times easier to give kids drugs with harmful side effects then face the teachers union. I am pretty sure the Teachers Union owns the rights to "Won't someone please think of the children!"

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[77Punker]

ADD isn't necessarily about school; it's about having the ability to pay attention and structure thoughts into actions. I was diagnosed with ADD at a young age and thought it was bullshit until I got to college because I was smart enough that I didn't need to pay attention to get good grades. When the ideas I needed to pick up were complex enough that I couldn't infer them on my own (data structures, anyone?), I noticed that I would listen intently to my professor in a class I enjoyed and come out with no idea what we just talked about.

Now in the "adult" world (it disappoints me that many adult are overgrown children), I know ADD is real because I'm certainly smart enough to write code that implements business rules, but I often lose track of important conversations. I constantly end up asking not for clarification of a topic, but just to hear things restated verbatim because the words went in one ear and out the other.

Your psychiatrist may be an irresponsible dirtbag that just throws stimulants at everything that comes through his door; incompetence is rampant in every profession. This does not mean that the body of established evidence for the existence and treatment of ADD is wrong.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[rift321]

Rather than turning this into the standard ADHD/education discussion, might we come up with ways that educators can use the early data on brain patterns to better educate those with ADHD? Everyone with ADHD (including myself) knows of the HUGE shortcomings of our education system for ALL students, not just the ones with high IQs and an attention span of 0.2 seconds.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

One problem is the "no child left behind" philosophy, which can also equate to "no child too far ahead"

-- gid

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

No, fire the parents.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[drinkypoo]

Bring back the paddle? I don't think abuse is the answer. Besides, the school can't play disciplinarian if there's no discipline at home. It just won't work. Just kick the kids out if they're not manageable. Let people home school. The results will be depressing in many cases, but at least they won't drag down those in the education system for education. (Sure, it's also indoctrination, but it's still more useful than no education.)

Parental involvement is overwhelmingly what is missing in education today. No Child Left Behind should have resulted in riots in the streets, or at least at PTA meetings.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[SolarStorm]

As a former teacher, I can agree that there are some poor teachers, but there are also poor mechanics, ditch diggers, and doctors. Remember 50% of the doctors (or teachers) are below average. That being said, 50% of the PARENTS are below average. My point is that a teacher only has a child for a max of 6 hrs per day or 30 hrs per week. In today's world there are so many couples that spend the "required" 6 weeks at home to qualify them as a parent and then get daycare, grandma, etc to raise their child. Then are disappointed when the child has no direction. ADD becomes a quick solution. By labeling ADD parents are relieved of their responsibility because now their child has a disease. Some actually do! Many don't. So before we hang the education system I ask: Are you willing to spend more on education to attract better quality teachers? And, are you willing to take more responsibility for your own childs actions and development?

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[swanzilla]

As someone who's been 'diagnosed' with ADHD, I can confidently say that the solution to this 'problem' isn't putting kids on amphetamines, it's to fire the horrible teachers that make learning a horrible, horrible chore.

cool...let's ride bikes!

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[gyrogeerloose]

Unless it was my middle-school French teacher who was doing the paddling. Woo-hoo!

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[dkleinsc]

I used to work extensively with kids, mostly in summer programs. I described the effects of ADHD as follows:

A kid with ADHD will tend to run around like crazy screaming their head off, will have a short attention span, and may not notice when you tell them something. A kid without ADHD, by contrast, will tend to run around like crazy screaming their head off, will have a short attention span, and may not notice when you tell them something.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[rift321]

Great comment. Could you suggest a better way to educate children with broad-spectrum ADHD?

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Tony Hoyle]

That doesn't sound like ADD, it's just the results of stress. My wife was diagnosed with stress and those are the *exact* symptoms.. she'd be in the middle of a conversation and forget how it started. She really hated the effect when raiding... she couldn't hold enough information to be able to remember tactics.

I've seen the proper clinical form of ADD and you wouldn't need an EEG to diagnose it - those with it are, to put it politely, 'socially disfunctional' to the point that if you saw it you'd know something was wrong immediately. There are, alas, rather a large number of doctors who use it as a catch all for 'a bit hyperactive' leading to the widespread impression that it doesn't exist at all.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[everett]

I was going to write a well thought out post about how I was also diagnosed with ADHD, but then I went outside to ride bikes instead.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[rift321]

I think that you have a good, pragmatic take on ADD diagnosis and treatment, but on the flip-side, how much more productive are you than many of your non-ADD co-workers simply due to your intelligence and ability to easily grasp concepts and problem-solve? And how many times were you penalized for being a "bad listener" and having "poor self-control" in your educational environment? Do you think that there are better ways to treat and guide people with ADHD as youngsters? Remember that a higher-than-average IQ is also a symptom of many people with ADD.

My feeling is that billions of dollars of productivity is lost in our system because people don't take the time to properly understand or educate those with ADD early-on in their lives. I think you know as well as I how well people with ADHD can focus on something when they're properly motivated to do so.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[GooberToo]

it's to fire the horrible teachers that make learning a horrible, horrible chore.

Thanks to the "No Child Left Behind" program, their current goal is to fire all teachers who are not creating a horrible learning environment.

If a school receives federal education dollars, its impossible for them to do anything other than teach how to take a test.

Don't blame your teachers, blame your government!

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to work extensively with kids, mostly in summer programs. I described the effects of ADHD as follows:

A kid with ADHD will tend to run around like crazy screaming their head off, will have a short attention span, and may not notice when you tell them something. A kid without ADHD, by contrast, will tend to run around like crazy screaming their head off, will have a short attention span, and may not notice when you tell them something.

Its really great that you're so understanding towards people with ADHD. People like you really are great to have around if you have ADHD.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[SolarStorm]

The biggest problem we have with our education system is funding. Education costs money. I left because of the BS, parents willing to blame me for their childs issues when I taught them for all of 2 hrs per week?, and the fact that I could earn two to three times as much as a software developer. Simply wasnt worth it. A better way... I dont have the training to fully understand the disorder. I believe before I give advice, I should have a SOLID understanding of the issue. I taught high school, my wife taught elementary and junior high (middle school for the US readers). I can tell you the the Teachers Aides that were assigned to any of the handicapped students were in over their head 50% of the time. Quite often, under trained and overworked. Again it comes back to funding. Someone has to pay the bill, for qualified trained help. Failing that, a teacher can only do so much and then it is upto the parent to take over and get the training themselves. Not an easy solution, but the only one I know of...

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

ADHD is real. I know.. I have it... tons of kids are misdiagnosed.. but it's real and it can be tested for using tests simliar to IQ tests.

I've been on ritalin since 2nd grade (I'm 32 now) and it literally changed my life... I became a straight A student almost overnight and graduated with an engineering degree from a top 5 engineering school....

I will say that my wife didn't believe ADHD was real either until she met me

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[0100010001010011]

My own anecdotes.

I do think that it's getting over diagnosed these days, but I was diagnosed with it "back in the day". I thank my parents when I can for not putting me on anything.

Even when I'm running the meetings I will find I will stare directly at the person talking and have no clue what they were talking about because in the last 30 seconds my mind has been on 50 different subjects, mostly about other work I'm doing.

ADHD is akin to having a little buzzer in your head that tells you you have to switch tasks or at least what you're thinking about. Some (good) days the timer is set to a nice 5 minutes. Meaning I can get in a solid 5 minutes of programming. Worst case days it's set at 30 seconds. Meaning every 30 seconds I have to switch what I'm either thinking about or doing. If I'm in the middle of a line of code. I have to check my e-mail. Go to the bathroom. Look around the room. Wonder why the light in that socket is out. Read the posters in my cube. Look at other peoples posters. EVERY 30 SECONDS. Having concurrent 'things' going helps. (Watching movies, etc) because I can listen to the movie and still keep working on what I'm working on.

I agree, it's hard for even 'normal' people to concentrate on boring stuff. The difference is that there are times that there are things I enjoy and should be concentrating on. Worst case scenario is sex. (And this should trigger some +5 Funny's at my expense) But there are some times where my mind is jumping to what is that noise downstairs, did I switch over the laundry, what am I having for dinner, etc. And trust me, it's not fun.

I'm looking at going back to grad school, and I honestly don't think I'd be able to do it. I'm going to talk to my primary care physician and see if I can test out some of the ADHD drugs. If they improve my concentration at work. I just don't want something that takes a while to 'build up'. I more or less want to be able to say "this is a concentration day" pop a pill in the morning and concentrate at work, and on the weekends be able to do my own thing.

(Since starting this post. I've responded to 2 business & 4 personal e-mails. Checked when the best time to plant garlic is (came up this weekend). Updated the mysql pages for a website I run. Opened 3 other php files. Opened the Facebook API page. And launched 2 instances of Matlab. I have 3 rows in my Windows task bar full.)

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

Rubbish! You have never been diagnosed with ADHD. Maybe your teachers were bad, maybe you were an obnoxious asshole - I don't care. I do care about my present pupils, though. This year, of 120, only two are diagnosed with ADHD by doctors. One of them is very intelligent, unable to concentrate for more than a few minutes at a time, and unable to control his impulses. He does not use amphetamines, but maybe they would have helped this intelligent young man to learn something others believe would be beneficial to him in adult life? I don't know. I teach, I don't diagnose or prescribe. The other one is not very intelligent, in fact quite childlike - socially several years behind his classmates. He uses amphetamines, and this has helped him no end. He says himself: "I don't want to become the baddest boy in school ever again." Oh, and learning _is_ a chore, so shut the fuck up.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[mooingyak]

That doesn't sound like ADD, it's just the results of stress. My wife was diagnosed with stress and those are the *exact* symptoms.. she'd be in the middle of a conversation and forget how it started. She really hated the effect when raiding... she couldn't hold enough information to be able to remember tactics.

The major difference being the the ADD/ADHD folks can focus fantastically well on something that interests them (like raiding for example).

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[h4rm0ny]

Not just easier, but more profitable too. Never forget the second motive.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Gramie2]

I remember reading (The Economist?) that there is a clear correlation between the respect shown to teachers in a society (generally linked to salaries) and the performance of children in international tests/competitions.

Maybe that's why my teacher brother can make 90K (CDN) a year, while I get 2/3 that as a software developer.

(I was making more at a much more stressful job; I took a $15K pay cut for the quality of life. Regardless, he still out-earned me.)

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[dkleinsc]

My point was that ADHD often is really an issue of adults expecting kids to behave like adults rather than behave like kids. For instance, kids attention spans are naturally shorter than adults, they naturally tend to move quicker than adults do, and tend to make a lot of noise and be a bit clumsy. All of which are considered important traits in ADHD diagnosis.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[dwiget001]

Funding **is not** the problem.

Schools have received more and more and more money over the years, with the results either A) no improvement or B) little improvement.

To repeat, funding is not the problem.

It is the methods of teaching and what is being taught.

Schools have turned into little more than indoctrination clinics compared to what they were in the 60s, prior to "New Math" and the like.

I was in grade school in the transition period to "New Math" and the like. It always made me wonder what was wrong with "Old Math", so to speak.

We need to teach the basics and the reason(s) why these are being taught to the people that are learning, amongst other changes. One big change, les money for school administrations (and their administrators) and more into teachers and materials to teach with, would be a good start, then tackle the rest.

ADHD is nothing more than a voted on condition that psychiatrists and school systems (money for disabled or special education children) to be a cash cow for them. Nothing more, nothing less.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Itninja]

The tricky part is ADHD is a clinical diagnosis. There is no authoritative test to determine if someone has it or not (at least not yet). So people tend to just read Wikipedia and diagnose themselves. But back before being ADHD was, for lack of a better word, 'trendy' it was pretty clear which kids had the problem.

Those kids were not simply running around and not paying attention, they were incapable of doing so. With a non-ADHD kid you could entice them with treats, or threaten them with punishment and they would behave (at least for awhile). But the ADHD children simply could not do it. No matter what the consequence. Even if you said 'I will buy you a new [insert highly coveted toy here] if you just be quite and sit still for 15 minutes', it was just beyond their ability.

But these days, parents will convince themselves that it's not their poor parenting or terrible home life making their children act up. Their children must have this ADHD they have heard so much about. Yeah that's it. See? It's not my fault....my kid's special. So they will go to doctor after doctor until they one who will give them the diagnosis (and the drugs) they are looking for.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[pak9rabid]

So before we hang the education system I ask: Are you willing to spend more on education to attract better quality teachers? And, are you willing to take more responsibility for your own childs actions and development?

Yes and especially yes.

What parents need to realize, as obvious as it should be, is that the way you raise your kids affects them for their entire life after they've become adults. You can bet your ass I'm going to do everything I can to ensure they absorb the right information to shape them into well-mannered, productive people in society (including spending the money to send them to a school that isn't just a glorified daycare). That's you're responsibility as a parent and if you fail at this, you've failed your children.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the biggest problem is thanks to teacher's unions, schools can't kick out the bad teachers, teaching isn't a competitive profession. You get a school you work at, you get the children "zoned" for your school.. I bet if schools had to compete for their money, they'd be a whole lot better.

I'm home schooling my boys for this exact reason. I'm sure they would be "diagnosed ADHD", but I would have been also. So my wife can do a much better job at teaching them what they need to know. Also the fact that she KNOWS their strengths and weaknesses. Like how my 5 yr old doesn't need any help learning to read maps, he learns just fine himself, also WoW and Guild Wars have helped him in that area. But being able to relate to the child is key. Like "Road Trip" guy said, (i'm guessing but you get the idea) "I can teach physics to a monkey, I just have to know how to relate it to him"... Each child relates things differently, that's why teaching a class of 40 kids doesn't always come out best in the end.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[TooMad]

Or you could take responsibility for your own problems. I don't mean drugs, that is just as bad. Each individual is going be different and needs to be taught how to focus if they don't fall within the norm.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[tjonnyc999]

Is it the teachers that are shitty, or is it an educational system that demands teachers teach a certain way?

It's definitely the system. The 40's and 50's brought massive application of B.F. Skinner's methods to the public education system. The less said about the 60's, the better. The 70's gave us the "gift" of "Mastery Learning", which focuses on by-the-numbers learning instead of independent thinking. The 80's continued this disturbing trend with "Results-Based Education" (later renamed to "Outcome-Based Education" to avoid criticism. Ah, semantics.). And the 90's through the millennium saw the application of principles such as "No Child Left Behind", social promotion, curve-based grading, and other bullshit methods for accepting failure and passing it as achievement.

And now, we have an education system that is thoroughly and completely fucked.

American teens' test scores are consistently around the 25th place compared to the rest of the world. (And this is considering the fact that the vast majority of public education is geared towards "teaching to the test", with special prep courses and example tests given out. Even when we cheat, we're still losing. Badly.)

I count myself lucky to have gotten a European education - and a first-hand look at the difference between that and American public education system. Having seen the system from the outside and from within, I can safely say that unless we drop the liberal (not Liberal as in political party, but liberal in the socioeconomic sense, settle down) bullshit of OBE, NCLB, SCANS, and all the other mediocrity-promoting crap, we'll soon be left in the dust.

Of course, this will never happen as long as the teachers' unions are in power, and as long as the politicians can sell the same bullshit to the public year after year.

No, I don't have a solution. And I'm not qualified to offer one, either. Just throwing my opinion out there; mod it as you wish.

P.S. Check out Charlotte Iserbyt's excellent "The Deliberate Dumbing Down Of America" (all over Amazon and a free download at http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/ (6 MB PDF, about 520 pages).

P.P.S. By the way, Akido37, your local professor isn't the only one who's gotten in trouble for teaching "to the brain" instead of "to the test". There are at least 20 (that I've come across personally) well-documented cases around the country.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[h4rm0ny]

It also sounds like he was done a bit of a disservice at school. I also didn't have to work very much to learn until I reached university level. Consequently, University hit me hard as I spent far too much time partying and socialising not realising that I couldn't coast through most of my units anymore. If I had been pushed further at school, I might have had a less rocky first year. The same might be true of the GP that if higher standards had forced him to focus more as a child, that ability would have lasted into adulthood. I agree it doesn't sound much like ADD, but then most diagnosed ADD doesn't sound like ADD to me, just a conn to sell drugs to kids and something that over-concerned parents can hang their worries on.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[dkleinsc]

Those kids were not simply running around and not paying attention, they were incapable of doing so. With a non-ADHD kid you could entice them with treats, or threaten them with punishment and they would behave (at least for awhile). But the ADHD children simply could not do it.

I had a fairly sure-fire way of getting ADHD kids to behave: get them focused on something that was interesting to them. And yes, that something may not have been what you originally had planned for them to be doing.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[sheph]

I don't recall anyone saying anything about abuse. A paddle is just a tool. It can be used to play ping pong, and it can be used to correct behavior (to a certain degree). As long as it's not being used maliciously I don't see the problem with it. I like some of your other ideas though. It's true that if there's no discipline going on at home there will be no hope that it would succeed in school. Sometimes though there are kids that will do and say things at school that they would never dream of at home. Perhaps if there were some form of consequeces it might be beneficial to those kids.

I sense that you are mixing home schooling as a punishement with home schooling as a choice. Why would the results of home schooling be depressing in many cases? The only way I could see that being true is if the parents don't care, but if that's the case then it wouldn't matter what environment the child was in. It would be better for those in the educational system if those individuls weren't there.

On the other hand kids who are home schooled by parental choice can become much better prepared to function in the real world. Indoctrination is more indicative of what is happening in the public school system than in those who are home schooled. Independent thinking and tolerance are highly encouraged unless you happen to hold beliefs contrary to the status quo. Then you quickly become educated in just how closed minded and biggoted some of these enlightened folks can be. I've seen it here on /. as well.

As for the topic itself I'm not a big fan of slapping a label on some kid because he doesn't quite fit in with the norm. I often wonder how great minds like Einstein, Ben Franklin, Abraham Lincoln would be viewed through the lenses of today's society. Without their greatness they may have never been given the opportunity to succeed. It seems like the educational system as a whole is just lazy. Both intellectually as well as physically. They don't want to take the time to get to the bottom of things. Slap a quick fix on it, teach assumptions as though they were fact, and beat down anyone that doesn't agree or has a different idea. If you look at the situation honestly it's not hard to figure out why we are where we are as a society.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

You and the parent are fools. Think of all the money you can make selling your prescription speed!

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[oneTheory]

Was he really that hot?

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Red Flayer]

In his case, the college wanted professors to stick to the lesson plan that had been handed down from the administration.

That's a transfer credit acceptance issue.

If that professor deviates too much from the established curriculum, then it is possible that four-year colleges will not accept that course for credit at their institution.

I had this problem; I took three classes at the local community college while in high school, and I had to fight to get my college (after I graduated high school) to recognize the credits from two of the classes.

Sometimes community colleges have credit transfer agreements with state schools -- but this is also dependent on the curriculum.

In short CC professors are screwed when it comes to deciding what to teach -- obligations of the CC to have their credits accepted elsewhere are what defines the curricula.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[twidarkling]

I sense that you are mixing home schooling as a punishement with home schooling as a choice. Why would the results of home schooling be depressing in many cases? The only way I could see that being true is if the parents don't care, but if that's the case then it wouldn't matter what environment the child was in. It would be better for those in the educational system if those individuls weren't there.

That's basically exactly what I read it as GP said. If the parents don't care enough to help the kid do well in school, they're not going to help them do well in home schooling.

On the other hand kids who are home schooled by parental choice can become much better prepared to function in the real world. Indoctrination is more indicative of what is happening in the public school system than in those who are home schooled.

Um... I hate to burst your bubble, but the vast majority of home schooled students are taught so because their parents don't want them picking up "incorrect ideas" such as "evolution," "all races are equal," and more. It's not just religious whackjobs, it's whackjobs period who do the majority of homeschooling, nowadays. The best way to indoctrinate your kid is to make sure you're the one feeding them all the information.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Phasma Felis]

As someone who's been 'diagnosed' with ADHD, I can confidently say that I would never have graduated high school without both Ritalin and good teachers.

Some teachers are horrible and need to be fired. Some students have genuine brain imbalances that require medication. Please don't confuse the two problems. Just because ADHD drugs are over-prescribed doesn't mean that ADHD isn't real.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[sheph]

That sucks!! See, this is the problem: it's no longer about eduction, it's about brainwashing students to think like their teachers. It's been happening since the late 60s. That professor clearly wanted the students to think, ask questions, come to their own conclusions, and decide what they would take away. That's what education ought to be. It's too bad he was fired. We need more teachers like him if we're going to change the way things are.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[h4rm0ny]

Worst case scenario is sex. (And this should trigger some +5 Funny's at my expense).

Don't worry, I'm not making fun - I'm just thinking that this is the only time I've ever heard a good threshold given for someone having ADD. As to this:

I just don't want something that takes a while to 'build up'. I more or less want to be able to say "this is a concentration day" pop a pill in the morning and concentrate at work, and on the weekends be able to do my own thing.

What you are asking for is speed, aka amphetimines. Your doctor wont give it to you, but get it and it will have the effect you're after. Don't take too much, use strictly for legitimate purposes only when necessary. Don't take it if you have a heart condition. ;)

Am serious, btw. Try it and see what effect it has on your work. Just be sure to use it in moderation. My friend taught herself to play the saxophone on speed. Locked herself in her room for days, took lots of speed and pretty much just practiced from dawn to dusk. Okay, she was jabbering like a loon and lost what little fat she had on her to begin with, but wow, was she focused!

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[twidarkling]

I think the biggest problem is thanks to teacher's unions, schools can't kick out the bad teachers, teaching isn't a competitive profession. You get a school you work at, you get the children "zoned" for your school.. I bet if schools had to compete for their money, they'd be a whole lot better.

wow. What school districts have you been in? Around here, new teachers are given a yearly contract, and let go if they're not performing well, and even teachers long in the service are only on slightly extended contracts (usually about 5 years). It's a simple matter of just waiting out the contract, and then trying to find a replacement.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[clifyt]

"those with it are, to put it politely, 'socially disfunctional' to the point that if you saw it you'd know something was wrong immediately."

Wow. Really? You mean all the training I've gotten over the last 4 years was wrong...it is something that one can just naturally tell is wrong?

"There are, alas, rather a large number of doctors who use it as a catch all for 'a bit hyperactive'"

And this is where you fail. Very few doctors look at it as 'a bit hyperactive'. For children, there has to be documented proof of hyperactivity or inattention. This proof has to come from at least two settings...this is one of the reasons it is (and should be hard) to diagnose young children and psychiatrists (not some physician / nurse that wasn't trained to diagnose mental disorders) rarely give this recommendation to those under 6. We all know of cases of young'uns that are though. Blame the parents who force their physician to give meds they aren't trained to give.

Beyond that, there has to be 6 clear symptoms of hyperactivity in very specific settings (another 6 if one is speaking about the combined type including inattention).

Beyond this, it has to be inconsistant with others at the same developmental level. Kid running around like a crazed loon? Well...how old is he...and what setting is this in. Oh, he is 7 years old and running around like this after a sugary meal? Yeah...not going to be diagnosed.

The problem is, if one has prescribing rights, they can pretty much give any rx they want. If I want to try something out, I can go talk to my buddy who is a podiatrist and he can give me provigil (I was surprised he actually pulled out the steth and checked my heart rate first...then he said it was my funeral if it didn't work because he knew nothing about it). Much easier than the proper channels.

So back to the point, no...you wouldn't necessarily note that something was wrong. Nor are those with ADHD socially dysfunctional. Hell, I'm not even at the high functioning side of ADHD and I'd hesitate to call myself any more dysfunctional than the average person. I just can't pay attention....where was I going with all of this?

Nevermind...I don't have the attention to dispute this anymore.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[K. S. Kyosuke]

ADD isn't necessarily about school; it's about having the ability to pay attention and structure thoughts into actions. I was diagnosed with ADD at a young age and thought it was bullshit until I got to college because I was smart enough that I didn't need to pay attention to get good grades. When the ideas I needed to pick up were complex enough that I couldn't infer them on my own (data structures, anyone?), I noticed that I would listen intently to my professor in a class I enjoyed and come out with no idea what we just talked about. ...

Pity I cannot shake your hand, because this is *exactly* what I have been going through.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Phasma Felis]

Or you could take responsibility for your own problems. I don't mean drugs, that is just as bad. Each individual is going be different and needs to be taught how to focus if they don't fall within the norm.

Would you tell a kid with a broken leg that he needed to take responsibility for his own problems, and just needed to be taught a different way of walking? Or would you give him a cast and some crutches?

Medical problems call for medical solutions. They also call for appropriate therapy and adaptation, of course, but those are useless if you aren't addressing the medical cause.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[twidarkling]

The issue doesn't seem to be educating those with ADHD, it seems to be that most people honestly believe, rightly or wrongly, ADD/ADHD simply isn't the actual problem for a number of those who are diagnosed with it. Being able to teach to those with it doesn't help if someone doesn't actually have it.

Now, if this thing can prove whether people actually DO have ADHD, then we should all be fucking ecstatic, since it'll finally put this branch of the argument to rest, and then we can move on to your branch, of how to teach those who actually have it.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[bwalling]

I've been diagnosed with it as well, but I still don't believe it's a "disorder" or worthy of medication. I have no doubt the medication helps - I've taken it. I don't take it anymore. I do two things to combat it. First, I get regular exercise. This has an amazing impact on many areas of my life, including my ability to do boring work. Second, I work on being consciously aware of my ADD related issues and recognizing when I'm doing them. I'm no master of will power, but I'm fairly capable of refocusing myself repeatedly.

Some of this is easier for me now that I'm older and more mature than it would have been had I been smart enough to try it when I was younger. I can see some of the patterns developing in my kids, and I'm going to do my best to avert them with better habits rather than allowing them to get into the position I was in by the time I got to college (no ability to attend lecture, no ability to study and finding the material difficult enough to require doing at least one of those).

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless he was teaching "Sex Ed". Although I'd love to be in his interactive class...

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

WOOSH!

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Locke2005]

I think the problem is greatly exacerbated by placing too many kids into each classroom. Any kid that has difficulty focusing just isn't going to learn if placed in a small room with 30 other kids distracting them. The problem with giving kids drugs is that it becomes a crutch that they rely on; when you take them off the drugs, they do worse than when before they started the medication. Giving individualized instruction to these students would be more effective, but unfortunately that costs a lot of money, something that is in short supply in today's school districts.

As far as firing the bad teachers, you can thank the teacher's unions for ensuring that that is impossible. I tried complaining about my child's teacher, and the teachers union lawyer immediately sent me a Cease and Desist order demanding that I stop complaining!

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't most ADHD drugs amphetamines?

Wiki seems to agree.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[twidarkling]

Oh, and learning _is_ a chore, so shut the fuck up.

Wow. I'm sure you're a great teacher with that attitude. If you define chore as "A task, especially a difficult, unpleasant, or routine one," no wonder kids have difficulty learning. Learning should never be routine, difficult, or unpleasant. You may need to occassionally learn about things you prefer not to, but a good teacher can at least make it not routine, and hopefully ease the students in to it. The best way is the classic "streaming" classes. For those who learn a subject quickly, put them in to one class, so it'll be less routine and unpleasant. For those who need more assistance to grasp certain topics, another class, so that it's not too difficult or unpleasant. The worst thing for students is either to be the smartest kid in the class by a wide margin, or to be the slowest, by a decent gap. You're either bored spitless, or you have no idea what's going on, and can't get an idea because it's moving so much faster than your abilities.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[h4rm0ny]

Replying to my own post but... it would be remiss of me to simply answer your question by saying "speed" does that, without suggesting a healthier and more natural way to get the effect you want. I don't know how physically active you are but I can recommend both yoga and weight-training (I know the latter sounds really unlikely, stay with me...).

Now yoga really does help train the mind to focus. I know given what you've said about your concentration that if you haven't studied yoga you'll probably think your mind would be too resistant to sitting in some funny position and trying to empty itself. First thing I'd say is to recommend Ashtanga yoga. You're moving (sometimes quickly) through sequences of positions, not sitting still helplessly thinking about how you're not supposed to be thinking. In between trying to work out what position comes next, paying attention to your balance, trying to remember whether your breath is supposed to be going in or out right now and visualising and attending to the tension in different muscles, you will be far too occupied to be distracted. And this is all good practice because when you get good at yoga, you become good at other things. Honestly - try it and try it with a bit of determination and I think there's a good chance it will at least help to a degree you will be aware of and can benefit from. Weight training can also help for some of the same reasons that yoga can - a sustained physical task that requires concentration (if you do it right and do it hard). But yoga is my recommendation so long as its one of the active styles. Get a good DVD of some of the sequences, a decent book on the theory (I can recommend if you want) and give it a go. Less of a quick fix than speed and more of the "slow build" you said you didn't want. But good for your health and will quickly start to help. Good luck with whichever approach (if any) you take.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[cyphercell]

I was held back in second grade for refusing to do my homework. It didn't help, the work wasn't hard, it was monotonous, terribly so. The longer I spent in regular school the worse it got. I hated the whole damn thing, I think early on I figured school wasn't teaching me anything, I spent my whole freshman year in High school smoking pot, ditching class, working, and hiding in the basement reading encyclopedias, my chemical rubber company handbook, writing, or playing with math. My freshman year was at a new school and they had trouble getting my old records so they had me take some assessment tests. I scored above average in most areas, but my new found drug problem and habitual truancy were a big problem. Eventually my records came through and the VP of my high school got a little gun-shy about keeping me in advanced classes. I had two instructors that kept me, Global Religions and My Algebra instructor. I kept easy A's in those two classes for most of the year, but eventually I got bored and said "fuck it". I had been dropped from most of my other classes by mid-year for truancy.

My son, in kindergarten, asked me why he has to "learn" so much stuff he already knows. He started out with EXACTLY the same attitude towards school that I had. I explained to him that school isn't about learning stuff, it's about making sure the rest of the world knows exactly how smart you are. I told him that if you don't prove to people that you are smart, they will think you are stupid and you will get stuck with a really stupid job for the rest of your life. And THAT is much worse than stupid homework. I explained to him that that's what I did and it was very difficult to fix, he doesn't complain about the redundancy of the stuff so much anymore. And explaining to him the difference between "practice" and "learning" also made a big difference. For me as a kid, I would do work that was "practice", everyone called it "learning" and somewhere in my head, wires would cross and a bright neon sign would light up stating "I ain't learning shit!!!"

Nowadays, I'm basically ADD, but I couldn't tell if it's because of some inherent chemical imbalance or if I just figured early on that the whole world was bat-shit crazy and I wasn't going to listen to any of it. How can you trust adults to teach you anything, if they can't figure out what you know? If you know it, why do you have to prove it a thousand F*ing times? If they know you know it, why do they make you learn it again? The pat answer "to prove you know it" was just not lucid enough, most adults would not clarify who you were proving your worth to. Example, "Why do I have to do this", "to prove you know it", "but you know I know it", "doesn't matter, you still have to do it", "What?!". Now the social construct of proving it to "everyone", is much different - it makes sense because "everyone" doesn't know how smart you are. Once my son got this, homework switched from a struggle to something he just tries to get done ASAP, because I told him that the secret is: "the smartest kids finish first".

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Ihmhi]

Don't necessarily blame the teachers. You have the school boards/PTAs to blame as well for several factors.

First, it's practically easier to impeach a senator than it is to fire a teacher. They are nigh-invincible.

Secondly, we have defined curricula where there is little to no leeway for teachers to get creative in their classroom.

Third and last, we have tons of standardized tests that are meant to measure progress, but all its doing is forcing schools to "teach to the test" and fuck up anything remotely interesting even further.

How many teachers do you think actually WANT to make their entire school day a $TEST prep course? SOMEONE is behind that bullshit.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Veretax]

Uh, they are Kid's they are supposed to have a lot of youthful energy and pay little attention. That's what discipline and correction are for. Attention is something you have to be taught it is not a trait that you are born with.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

Try reading a peer reviewed study. Everyone thinks they are an expert on this. The evidence is not ambiguous.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

You're so right. If only we got rid of the teachers union, the sudden influx of all those brilliant and inspired folk that would love to tutor children could change the world!

Oh wait...

In any company you have crud. Teaching isn't any different.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[h4rm0ny]

Aren't most ADHD drugs amphetamines?

Wiki seems to agree.

Ritalin certainly is. Or else it is something that is merely amphetimine with just a random molecule tweaked slightly so it can be (a) patented and (b) marketed as not giving speed to kids. The difference is that the GP said they wanted something more potent that could be turned on or off. Well no drug is an on/off switch - the human body is to complicated to be completely predictable - but at least with speed he can get a reliable, stronger and quick effect and he knows when he's on it and when he's not. Better to take something with a clear effect with a beginning and end on the occasions it is needed than take a watered down drip of the stuff for the rest of his life. That's just my take on it though. I don't think taking drugs is the answer in the vast majority of cases and I don't like them. Half the real problems come from not knowing what you're getting though. If you could pick up a tab and know exactly what dosage it was, things would be a lot better all round (except for drug companies and politicians who base their campaigns about the dangers of drugs).

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

I was once marked down on a yearly review at a community College because I didn't show my students the "right way" to solve Calculus problems; I presented various ways telling them that there are many ways to do things (some easier than others). I'm no longer at that particular school.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[DeadDecoy]

Actually 50% +/- 1 are below the median. You could have a Poisson or exponential distribution, in which extreme outliers drag the average one way or another. Therefore, you could have a lot of reasonable people and a few extremely stupid ones, or vice-versa. Ah, sorry for nit-picking. I've just been staring at too many math papers. : P

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

You're so right. If only we got rid of the teachers union, the sudden influx of all those brilliant and inspired folk that would love to tutor children could change the world!

Oh wait...

In any company you have crud. Teaching isn't any different.

But the parent posters point was removing that union would help lessen some of that crud.

And you seem to agree with that fact, although sarcastically and bitterly for some reason.

What was the purpose of your reply again?

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Caboosian]

Anecdotally, a community college professor in my area (who holds a PhD) was fired because his classes were "too interactive", and he allowed students to "ask too many questions". To me, it sounds like he was doing his job: Helping the students learn.

This reminds me of one of the best teachers I ever had in high school. My finance teacher had one policy with his students; if you ask a question, he will answer it to the best of his abilities. He barely planned anything for each day - just a quick run through of some finance topic. Honestly, each topic would probably take no more than 20-30 minutes. However, since he answered every, and I mean every, question he was asked, that topic would form the basis of a conversation with our teacher that was fun, laid back, and extremely educational. We probably had 4 tests in that class, and almost no gradable work, yet I feel I learned more in that class (that was considered to be a "blowoff") than I learned in my very work heavy psychology class. I hear the administration is cracking down on him - he needs to produce "results". I always thought his results were knowledgeable students. Now I know better.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[d3ac0n]

just posting to strip an erroneous mod.

Incidentally, I would have loved to have been "paddled" by my 11th grade math teacher. She was right off of her assistant teaching stint after college. The last day of school she wore this leather miniskirt... Wow. Just wow.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

> Schools have received more and more and more money over the years, with the results either A) no improvement or B) little improvement.

Schools have received less and less money over the years if you take into account inflation and the more-rapidly rising expectations society has of them. Fundamentally, the schools *cannot* replace the parents - it's not good at standing in for absentee parents and it's absolutely horrible at counteracting the effect of actively bad parents. Performance isn't increasing linearly with funding anymore because performance was already close to peak before the funding increases started - "peak" performance meaning as high as it can get in practice due to the few percent of troubled students that the school is legally mandated to still have to try to "fix" (kind of like peak employment can only actually be around 95-97%). And when I say trouble I'm not even really talking about ADHD here - that doesn't increase the expenses or funding of the school unless it's *really* freakin' severe.

Additionally, remember that we had a decades-long ramping up of the educational system's scope from 50s to the 70s (as expectations rose from "everyone really should have a 9th grade education" to "everyone really should have a 12th grade education" to today's "everyone really should go to college if they can"). Lower teacher pay has always been compensated for by, in theory, more-stable benefits and retirement plans. That means over the past few decades we've had to start paying more and more of a percentage of the education budget towards retirees coming out of those previous teacher booms. In other words, not all the increase in the education budget is going to educating, and this is not a sign of waste or fraud as much as it is long-deferred cost of living increases and paying off of the long-deferred "debt" of pensions promised decades ago.

On top of that - and this part is anecdotal, so Your Mileage May Vary - at least in my area we're hitting the next rampup wave/bubble/whatever, some of which follows naturally from the circumstances of the previous one and some of which is a side effect of the success of that previous wave. To put it bluntly, we're having to repair, rebuild, or replace some of the old schools because having good schools meant more people moving in over the last 20 years. In some ways we're lucky that the retirement wave and construction wave didn't overlap with each other (or with the housing bubble's increased land and construction prices), but it still means lots of money that has to be spent while the quality of the system merely breaks even.

And, again but in different words - we're past the point where quality is going to increase linearly with budget. If you want more quality now, you're going to need some combination of better-trained teachers, smaller class sizes, and more intensive programs (longer hours or more activities?), all of which cost a lot more. I mean, just those first two items implies higher-paid teachers AND more of them AND more facilities (if you break 1000 kids into groups of 20 instead of groups of 30, you will of course need more rooms, whether that means building more or renovating the old ones). Can we do it, and afford to do it? I think so, but I think it'd take a major restructure of how we do things, which itself would come with major up-front cost.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[grrrl]

I wouldn't say you have ADD, I'd say you have what I have - a lack of decent work ethic compounded by a reasonable intelligence. In high school I hardly had to work at anything to get the ideas (like you) but at university I also had trouble because I didn't have the work ethic that smart, yet not super smart, people had to build in order to get by in high school.

A lot of university-level ideas require concentration, hard work and yes, listening in class (I had to become a decent note taker). I know people who did better than me not because they were smarter, but because they were good at working.

My advice to you? Build a work ethic. Make yourself sit down and work through problems (any problems, pick up an old math book or a language learner). Also, for comprehension I seriously recommend audio books - my first audio book I had to keep rewinding, but now I'm much better at retaining what's said. Answering phones (receptionist or guest services type role) also really helps on this one too (not a job you'd ever really want, and not one I'd ever been good at, hated answering phones at my dad's office on the odd occasion, but a stint answering phones while on vacation and now I'm a pro).

So yeah, don't take the easy way out and say you have ADD. Just realise you haven't worked on the skills you need to be good at other disciplines.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[ppanon]

Well, yeah. Apparently everybody but you seems to know that Miller Lite is mostly rice based, not wheat and barley.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[grrrl]

I liked your post, and I think your son will really benefit from your honesty and approach. I got really bored in grade school and I had to figure out on my own how to deal with it. If someone had taken an interest and told me to get it down quickly then go out and play, I think I'd be less of a loner :P

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[blincoln]

The major difference being the the ADD/ADHD folks can focus fantastically well on something that interests them (like raiding for example).

In my experience, untreated ADD/ADHD means that while you can *sometimes* do that, it's not something you really have control over. IE it's not just interest (or lack thereof) in something, there is some other quality that determines whether you can do the hyper-focus thing on it.

I was diagnosed as having ADD as an adult, and I take prescription stimulants to correct for it. I've been overwhelmingly happy with the results - it's no longer a matter of rolling the dice to see if I can keep something (e.g. math, electronics) in my head long enough to get a handle on it. The problem I have now is finding time to study and make use of all the interests I have.

I have a lot of mixed feelings about whether I should have started taking them at an earlier age. On the one hand, I tend to agree with the people who think giving young people ADD medication tends to turn them into robots when they might have been more creative otherwise. On the other, looking back I notice that I ended up using a *lot* of caffeine anyway (enough to have more of a health effect than the prescription I take now).

If I'd had access to something more effective at the time, I might have gone in a very different direction, career-wise. Whether that's a good, bad, or neutral thing is more subjective, but there is definitely a window in the late teens/early 20s in which someone with ADD is going to limit or eliminate potential career options by their choice of medication or not.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm, I work the same way. Maybe I should talk to a doctor about this eventually. But until then, my "concentration pill" is Gingko Biloba. It always makes me feel more alert and able to focus. When i have days that i cannot focus well, i later realize that it's not exhaustion but that I forgot to take a ginkgo that morning. Try it. YMMV.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[mariox19]

Number one: I think you mean "than face the teachers union." A comparison requires "than." What you wrote literally means: first, give them drugs; second, face the teachers union.

Number two: I can't speak for the remaining 50 states, but in New York, a teacher dare not recommend to a parent that a student be put on medication. That's for a doctor to recommend. The best a teacher can do -- even when it's pretty clear to an experienced professional that deals with kids day in and day out that little Johnny could use a shot of Ritalin -- is to make a veiled suggestion to the parents that if they're still wondering what more could be done to help Johnny succeed, perhaps they could have a pediatrician rule out any health problems.

There is plenty of legitimate criticism to be made of education today; but I've got news for you -- the bogeyman teachers union is not behind every problem. It's a million times easier to blame the psychiatrists who spend five minutes "evaluating" a patient before trying their hit-or-miss method of prescribing the first drug that comes to mind. It may just be only less than a million times more accurate to blame them than the teachers union, too.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

you may be suffering from or gifted with ! "Otitis Selectus" read on: http://www.childrensdisabilities.info/autism/auditory-processing.html

My dad has selective hearing big time it takes at least 3-4 tries to get the same point accross but he understands all the same. i think he just pre screens pointless talk at a preconscious level

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[blincoln]

What you are asking for is speed, aka amphetimines. Your doctor wont give it to you, but get it and it will have the effect you're after.

Your doctor will give it to you if you're diagnosed with ADD or ADHD. Adderall, for example, is dextroamphetamine salts. All of the stimulant-based ADD drugs I'm aware of are related to amphetamines in one way or another (although there's a whole other SNRI class of them that are not stimulants). Concerta is a particularly interesting tangent in terms of the molecule.

One of the many benefits of going the legitimate route is that the product is a lot less likely to kill you or destroy your brain. The dextro- variety has lower neurotoxicity than what you would get on the street. The prescription kind comes in carefully-measured lower doses because it's not intended for a recreational effect. Also, of course, you won't go to jail.

I've never used street speed, but when my doctor was tweaking my dose around initially to find the right one I got a taste of what that would be like, and it was too far in the other direction. I can see the attraction it would have for some people (I remember it as being as though I were inside a crystal cathedral of logic), but I don't think it would be an effective treatment for ADD like lower doses are.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[h4rm0ny]

I have a feeling I'm not going to like the answer, but what is "New Math"? Is this a US term? (Though having done a brief stint as a maths teacher in the UK, I'm not going to extol our own virtues too highly).

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[MaskedSlacker]

It was 'Japanese to a monkey in 36 hours'

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

from also diagnosed back in the day (early 80's) -- only one other kid in my school was ADHD.
It was NOT cool.

I went to grad school and just graduated.
You can too so long as you remember to fucking FOCUS.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[cyphercell]

Oddly, my sister and my daughter didn't have this problem at all. Thanks. My kids do try to tell me that I'm better at socializing than they are. Which, in a professional role, sure, I can smile and socialize and all that, but when I'm not trying, I just don't care. Their dependence on me for regular social stuff is kind of scaring the shit out of me.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[dbialac]

ADHD isn't a function of teachers, its a function of parenting. There is an old psychology theory that found that ADHD was caused by lacking the concept of a situation -- something your parents would teach you. Having been diagnosed as ADHD I've found the following:

1) The theory is correct. When I gained a concept of a situation and began using it a few years ago, I started finding myself focusing MUCH better. I found myself better able to organize my thoughts and I communicate much more clearly. I have a 'filter' to determine relevence and appropriate behavior. Prior to understanding this concept, I lacked these abilities.
2) Having been put through ampetamines while growing up and for a while in adulthood, they help, sort of but they simply are not the same. Additionally, the have bad side effects and can cause you to become reclusive and paranoid.

With their permission, I've helped a few friends who are ADHD or ADD diagnosed to learn the concept. One of the more telling ones was a girl I dated who said "Oh my god! You changed something in my brain! I can focus!"

So the reality is we need to help kids with ADD/ADHD to understand the concept of a situation, and further we need to help their parents so they lay information out to their children in the context of a situation.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[modecx]

The problem with illicit amphetamines is: how the fuck do you know, unless it comes from an extremely reputable source: a) its concentration b) what else is in it (harmful impurities)

Unless it's made by a pharmaceutical lab, I wouldn't touch it for any reason.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Omestes]

I don't agree with others here, I don't think you should go to your local ghetto and find a shady character to buy some tweak from. You really don't want to go down that path, the other effects are probably worse than any of the symptoms you currently have (and it seems learned to live with).

This might seem a little cheesy, but bear with me. Try meditation. Not in the bogus "new age" sense, but in a more practical "mind training" methodology. Basically your forcing yourself to concentrate for prolonged periods of time, this slowly rewires your brain to make concentration on a single detail or task easier. It might be a slower and less drastic fix than becoming a tweaker, it probably is better for you in the long run, and might achieve longer lasting results.

As a personal anecdote, meaning take it with a grain of salt, I was diagnosed with ADHD sometime in grade school. I was a terrible student, I couldn't focus on tasks, etc... Though I could sit in the corner of my house and read for 12 hours a stretch, oblivious of the the world outside of my book. If given a sketch pad I could draw for hours on end, and never even realize that there was a world outside my paper and pen. Long tangent, short; the put me on all manner of drugs, Ritalin, and later the second generation of ADD drugs, eventually even Lithium. My parents noticed a flattening of affect, and that I stopped being able to have my focus on things that were interesting to me, and took me off of it all. My behavior improved. Though I never became good at school until college, where I could pick subjects that challenged me. Even them I had better grades in the harder courses, than I even achieved in the core classes and the other meaningless fluff needed to get a degree (Eng101, for example). The point of this is, drugs aren't the always the answer, and may suppress useful bits of your mental talents as well as the bad bits, and also make sure to find the line between boring and disorder. How do you perform on your hobbies, or things you have a true passion for?

Also, congratulations, your one of the few people I can actually believe has adult ADD. 99% of the time people just decide to self-diagnose themselves with it because they feel they should be more attentive in boring tasks, when in fact most of our jobs are down-right hostile to our natural inquisitive mental modes. Yes, a lot of our co-workers can stair at a monitor or sit through meetings with out belaying attentional wandering, but if we pay attention to them we will find that they are either incredibly dull people, or have as hard a time focusing on boring tasks as the self-diagnosee does, but are better at concealing it.

90% of all cases of ADD/ADHD didn't last beyond puberty when I was diagnosed in the early 90's, but now it seems EVERYONE has it, and has it well into their 40's (oddly coinciding with the early wave of ADD/ADHD diagnosis). When over 50% of the population has a disease, I don't think we really can call it abnormal, or a disorder anymore.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[grrrl]

What do you mean by their dependence on you for regular social stuff is scary?

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[rift321]

Now I know what I'll tell my future children.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Cro Magnon]

I'm guessing he means that if they look to HIM for social advice, that is scary!

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

Ritalin is not an amphetamine, it's methylphenidate. Adderall is the mix of amphetamine salts. Surprisingly my doctor got this backwards as well.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[gillkm]

Can't figure out if you're describing me or yourself! I was diagnosed post-high school with ADHD, mostly for the same reasons you mention. I can keep large, complex software algorithms in my active memory, but still consistently forget what my wife asked me to do 30 seconds ago (probably because I'm still thinking of the algorithms).

I got through high school, and even a tour with the Marines before being diagnosed. Hit the real-world and college and it can really show up when the tasks start getting truly complex.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[SpeZek]

Seems your statistics teacher was among the shitty.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[dave562]

I've been diagnosed with ADD (minus the hyperactivity) and although I was similar in that interesting teachers kept me interested, I can't blame my attention problems on the teacher. People with healty minds can focus them on whatever the subject happens to be. It's a cop out to put the burden of our inability to focus on the rest of the world for "not being entertaining enough". I did a lot of biofeedback training and that, combined with meditation and martial arts has really helped me control and focus my attention.

Staying focused is a skill that takes time to develop. On the other end of the spectrum, being hyper alert and aware is also a skill. I think that staying focused is easier for ADD people to develop. Becoming hyper alert is more of a physiological/genetic trait. It is an innate ability, more so than a learned behavior. It just happens to be frowned upon in an "orderly" society.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[COMON$]

Interesting can be replaced with "attractive and female,"

I beg to differ, although it did make my daydreams much more interesting...

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[DaFallus]

The side-effects of this reach further than one might expect. A number of people close to me are teachers and they have told me about how kids diagnosed with ADD or ADHD must be given extra time on tests or assignments. I have no problem with giving troubled kids a little extra time on something to make sure they understand the material. However, most of the time these are the students who turn in a completely blank test five minutes into class.

These parents who insist that their kids are just as good as everyone else and are being held back and discriminated against because they have sort of disorder are really doing a large disservice to their children. Almost no one in the professional world gives you more time to finish a project or assignment because you have ADD or ADHD. The scariest thing to me though was when a friend of mine in medical school told me about people getting extensions on their exams/boards for similar reasons. I'm sorry, but people aren't magically going to stay alive and give you an extra hour to finish an open heart surgery.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, that has much to do with our whole society. It is easier to bend over or bow down or let someone else solve the problem.

Please note, if public schools were abolished and education vouchers were issued instead, we would see real progress on many fronts.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[atraintocry]

I have it as well. I stopped taking medication for it, but it's very frustrating to have something wrong with you that everyone else shrugs off as a big-pharm conspiracy. Overdiagnosed or not, it's real, and it's frustrating. It's painful for me to keep my mind on one topic, even for a minute. I am trying to train myself to do it better, though. But I wasted many years of my life because (a) I couldn't focus and (b) I bought into the anti-ADD hype (while being on pills for it, even) and deep down just assumed it was a discipline issue. But as I have gotten older I got better at seeing the signs, and denial became less of an option. Wish I could have figured it out sooner.

If I don't beat it, it's going to ruin me. As it is I have to go back and finish my undergrad, and like you, I'm scared to even try.

Most of the pills out there, at least the ones that I took, do not take any time to build up. They are just mild amphetamines. It's like caffeine that doesn't make you jittery. You don't have to take them on the weekend. But they do work. They kick in within a half hour and last for a few after that. The time release ones repeat the cycle four hours later. Headaches were common with me, at the very least you want to stay hydrated.

They're not a big deal and I'm sure it's different with everyone. If you are on top of your ADD in terms of correcting yourself when you see the signs, the medication will help. If you are not, then you will be tweaked all the time for no reason. It's important to not view the pills as a miracle cure.

I am terrible at remembering people for the same reason...I'm just not paying attention when they're talking to me, despite trying.

Some of us just have more of a load to carry than others. It's annoying that people don't see it as legitimate (and I don't deny that it's overdiagnosed in children), but like many things it's not something the majority of people understand on a deep level, they make their opinion quickly and lock it in place. I have learned to simply not bring it up with people and to just work on getting it under control.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[master5o1]

Also it helps if it is an interesting subject.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

like how my 5 yr old doesn't need any help learning to read maps... WoW and Guild Wars have helped him...

Five years old and on WoW and GW? He is clearly in very capable hands when it comes to his future education.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[ivan256]

Something like this could theoretically change "diagnosed" into diagnosed.

Think of all the false diagnoses that could be prevented if there were a sure-fire test. No more lazy teacher not wanting to deal with a discipline case sending the parents off to medicate....

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

I'm not able to find any info on what you're suggesting (at least not in context of ADHD), can you provide references? I'm interested in learning more.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Jurily]

Bring back the paddle? I don't think abuse is the answer.

Violence is not abuse. Violence for the sake of violence is abuse.

Just an example: since the demise of the communist regime, teachers may not hit children, under any circumstances. What's happening now, you ask? I've witnessed a 9 year old boy getting up in the middle of class, walking up to the teacher, and kicking her, repeatedly, while the rest of the class either cheers or is horrified (roughly corresponding to skin color, but we all know all racism is unfounded, too). So now, if the teacher stops the kid, she loses her job. In a working system, the kid spits out a tooth suddenly, the class is resumed, and nobody in the class ever tries that again.

Of course, if the teacher just walks up to a random kid in class and hits them, they should lose their job. That's abuse.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

from also diagnosed back in the day (early 80's) -- only one other kid in my school was ADHD. It was NOT cool.

I went to grad school and just graduated. You can too so long as you remember to FOCUS.

If you think that you can just 'remember to focus' and do OK, then chances are high the you were mis-diagnosed. Try having a conversation with somebody and making an active effort to pay attention - then realize that you're actually paying attention to the mechanics of paying attention and the conversation is still going in one ear and out the other. Even if you repeat each word in your head as they speak them, they are without semantics.

You think that it's as simple as saying "focus" to stop that? Try again.

The ability to kind of "play back" the last few seconds of a conversation is invaluable (auditory nerve memory lasts for several seconds - a great tool for ADDers)

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[drinkypoo]

All the teacher has to do is leave the room and call the police to come and deal with the child. Is it sad that we have come to this pass? Sure. Is the appropriate answer to allow backhanding? Nope. If anyone should be backhanded, it is the parents. It's not the kid's fault they act that way. If someone hit my kid (not that I have one, being mature enough to spare society my offspring) I would go and knock all their fucking teeth out. Hitting my kid is my job.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[sadler121]

Pretty much every teacher I know (my wife being one of them) HATE NCLB and want it abolished. Of course they still want more of the same, more money, and will fight any kind of school choice programs tooth and nail.

Parents should have a choice of what school they can send their school to, and the money should follow the child NOT the school.

See Stupid in America.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

I'm going to talk to my primary care physician and see if I can test out some of the ADHD drugs. If they improve my concentration at work. I just don't want something that takes a while to 'build up'. I more or less want to be able to say "this is a concentration day" pop a pill in the morning and concentrate at work, and on the weekends be able to do my own thing.

It's worth doing as most of the amphetamine based treatments work this way. However - one thing to keep in mind is that it only addresses half of the problem. It gives you the /ability/ to focus - but you'll also have years of bad habits that you must consciously make an effort to overcome. (I still have not been successful in the latter aspect... but slowly improving )

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[cyphercell]

Pretty much. I used to hide from my math teacher so I could get stoned, then I'd hide from my stoner friends so I could read physics books. That was pretty much my attitude towards casual relationships for a long time. Nowadays I mostly just say no and people think I'm difficult, but it's healthier.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[AK Marc]

...And bring back the paddle.

I spent split time in public and private schools. I was paddled one and only one time in school, and it was one of the reasons I went back into private schools for a time. I was in the second grade and was given the assignment to draw a man with two orange heads. This was on a day of a parent teacher conference near Halloween and the teacher wanted some art for the walls to make it seem like she did something other than have us work on stupid worksheets all day long, day after day. Well, everyone else in the class drew a man, normal in every way, other than in place of a head, he had two heads, and they were orange jack-o-lanterns. I, however, drew a normal man. He held, in each hand, an orange head. So, for drawing a man with two orange heads, I was ordered to the principals office for a paddling. I failed to follow directions.

When teachers send kids to get beaten because their directions are followed exactly, but they don't like the result, the system failed. To allow administrators to beat children for such stupid reasons should be illegal. There is nothing that justifies such actions. Oh, and they didn't notify my parents before or after. So yes, please bring back discipline. However, the paddle is not correlated with discipline, not even weakly. It's just abuse, and is abused.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Carnildo]

I had a fairly sure-fire way of getting ADHD kids to behave: get them focused on something that was interesting to them. And yes, that something may not have been what you originally had planned for them to be doing.

That's one of the lesser-known effects of ADHD: in addition to the well-known inability to focus on boring things, most people with ADHD have the ability to hyperfocus on things that are interesting.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

A broken leg is a binary problem. ADHD is the 'new' asthma. Sometimes the kid is just a poorly raised brat that was never taught to sit still.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Cro Magnon]

If you were doing your job, your brat wouldn't be hitting teachers. And if a brat hits a teacher, s/he should be permanently expelled from that school, regardless of whether the teacher is allowed to backhand the brat.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

BS. ADHD *is* real, though today it appears to be significantly overdiagnosed. I was severely ADHD as a kid, and I couldn't sit still or stick with the same topic for more than a couple minutes at a time. I was diagnosed, and put on ritalin. Ritalin made a HUGE difference for me. I could focus on something for extended periods of time, and actually finish tasks.

I no longer take ritalin, and I now have a fantastic job which I'm very good at- but ADHD is real, and some of the time, drugs are a very useful tool to help people overcome it.

I don't know if this technique from TFA is accurate or not, but if it IS accurate, it's a great thing. Perhaps we can have fewer misdiagnoses of ADHD and treat the people who actually SHOULD be treated.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[phosphorous]

I'd also be really interested in hearing more about this. I have a son who has been diagnosed with ADHD. He's 8. He is a very difficult child to deal with. We've tried medication, psychotherapy, etc etc but nothing really seems to help. Incidentally, I also have a daughter who is 10 and another son who is 4, neither of which have ADHD. I used to wonder if it wasn't just a parenting issue, but after seeing 3 kids go through the same parenting and only one "getting" ADHD, I'm not so sure.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[sheph]

Well you're not going to burst my bubble, it's soundly in tact. While that might be your opinion, and you're certainly welcome to it I happen to have a different viewpoint. I do oppose the teaching of evolution in the classroom for a whole host of reasons that I'm not going to get into here. That doesn't mean I'm a whackjob, it means I care about my kids and don't want to see them subjected to what I see as a bunch of politicised nonsense that has little to do with true science.

I think all races are equal, but wonder if children wouldn't be better served by people who live by example rather than teachers who dictate that it is so, and therefore it is and no questions can or should be asked. Especially when those same teachers would practice exclusion on groups of people for their particular beliefs. Call it indoctrination if you want, but is it any different when it's being practiced on a grand scale? Conversely, my wife and I ask our kids questions. We let them come to their own conclusions without the polution of a school system that seeks to form the minds and hearts of the youth rather than just educate them.

In the real world often times we're required to think on our feet, and form our own opinions about things. I don't think that the public education system in general does a good job of preparing kids for that type of environment. Regurgitating what you've been fed isn't what's going to get you through life.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[linzeal]

I say we drag them into the streets and kill them along with the lowest common denominator children or enslave them both to build monuments of our greatness. How else will be ready for when only ADD kids can save us from an alien robot from space that is bent on destroying the Earth and only we can pilot the long buried robots that assemble into an even bigger one?

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Jurily]

All the teacher has to do is leave the room and call the police to come and deal with the child.

Tell me, what is this magical power the police has that solves everything? And what will happen once they leave? And do you think they'll come back three times or more? They can't take the kid because the laws were not updated properly and there is no penalty for children under 14, even for murder. Of course back then there was nobody to apply them to.

Is the appropriate answer to allow backhanding? Nope. If anyone should be backhanded, it is the parents. It's not the kid's fault they act that way

Of course it is. He knows the teacher is powerless. Stop treating children like plants. I agree about the parents though.

If someone hit my kid (not that I have one, being mature enough to spare society my offspring) I would go and knock all their fucking teeth out.

What if the policeman hits him? Is he allowed with his magical powers? What if that slap was the only thing needed to make sure your kid will not be a criminal in 10 years?

Hitting my kid is my job.

Yes it is. But if you don't do it, don't be surprised if someone else will.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

If they can focus on anything at all, they're probably not ADHD. They're just bored.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[dave562]

I have ADD and having read what you wrote, I'm kind of terrified because I think you're setting your son up for a bruising in about a decade or so. School is "easy" and "smart kids do finish first" when dealing with basic concepts. As soon as he has to deal with complex concepts, higher level math that involves multiple steps, or research that goes deeper than the superficial, he is going to be lagging behind his peers. When he can't "finish first" he will start having all sorts of self esteem problems and think less of himself because he isn't "smart" anymore.

I eventually learned that the smart kids are the ones who use all of their time. When they are finished with the test, they go over it again to make sure that they really did do the math right. They re-read what they wrote to make sure that their points really are clearly communicated. The smart kids enjoy learning and don't see it as something that they need to hurry up and finish.

If your kid is ADD, get him some professional help. Get him a tutor who can help him develop some real learning skills.

Those classes that you "got bored" with were the classes you struggled with. You wrote them off as boring because you couldn't handle the work. It was easier to go do something else instead of focusing on the work and getting it done. Trust me, I made the exact same excuse.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[lannocc]

I constantly end up asking not for clarification of a topic, but just to hear things restated verbatim because the words went in one ear and out the other.

When I was in elementary school we were taught that some people learn (i.e. retain information) better when it is received aurally while others learn better visually. I always found myself very much in the visual and "hands on" learning category, which is probably why computers have been such a great fit for me. To this day any significant information relayed to me by ear is usually half lost, yet I thoroughly enjoy good music and play many instruments. Go figure.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[h4rm0ny]

More information, please. What do you mean by "lacking the concept of a situation", in what way do your parents teach it to you and how did you teach yourself it? Am very curious.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[seebs]

Sounds like me, complete with the multiple tasks. I'm working right this minute, I'm just between time slices.

I'm on methylphenidate, and yeah, I take it most weekdays, skip on weekends or weekdays when I'm tired anyway, and don't build up much of a tolerance, so it stays useful.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Kerkyon]

What you are asking for is speed, aka amphetimines. Your doctor wont give it to you, but get it and it will have the effect you're after.

Wait, what?

I've had a number of legal prescriptions for straight amphetamine. I've had more for dextroamphetamine, and still more for an amphetamine/dextroamphetamine blend (Adderall). We eventually went to the Adderall because I had serious focus crashes when the straight stuff wore off -- there's a much calmer come-down on the blended form.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[noidentity]

You may suffer from not being able to concentrate on things, but that doesn't mean "there's something genetically wrong with you that needs drugs" is the cause and solution. There may even be a genetic component that makes you more susceptible to this problem, but it still doesn't mean it's a defect or disorder. Other valid areas to look for causes is the way people communicate and what styles are catered to/not catered to. Left-handed people provide a good study of a difference that has been treated as a defect.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[AK Marc]

You can bet your ass I'm going to do everything I can to ensure they absorb the right information to shape them into well-mannered, productive people in society (including spending the money to send them to a school that isn't just a glorified daycare).

And what do you do when there are 1000 people out there claiming to be PhD, DO, MD or some other doctor designation expert? Better yet, the proper way to handle your children is different depending on who you are listening to. So, with 1000 right ways, which is best for your child? What happens if you can only tell after it is too late?

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[h4rm0ny]

So these are kids that don't like to waste their time on things they aren't learning anything of value from and have a great capacity to focus on things that they are learning from. And this is called a disorder? Sounds like society is the one at fault.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[medlefsen]

I know exactly what you mean. Telling people you're just lazy and forgetful is better than saying you have ADD because then at least you're not "making excuses". The stigma around it is almost as bad as the disability itself. Even in very progressive circles people find it uncomfortable and try dismiss or diminish it. I really hope that as more information about the disorder comes out people lose the knee-jerk reaction a bit and start actually trying to understand it and how it affects the people it afflicts.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Kerkyon]

Worst case scenario is sex.

I am right there with you on the "I should really be able to concentrate on having sex" point. It's frustrating on a level that cannot be imagined by people who haven't experienced it.

I just don't want something that takes a while to 'build up'. I more or less want to be able to say "this is a concentration day" pop a pill in the morning and concentrate at work, and on the weekends be able to do my own thing.

This is exactly how both my wife and I use meds to help manage our ADD. There are some days where the ADD effects are honest-to-gods useful, and we don't want to clobber that.

You want either Adderall (an amphetamine blend), Ritalin (methylphenidate, technically amphetamine-derived but more like cocaine in its chemical action), or some other stimulant therapy. You do not want Strattera or any other SNRI, and you probably don't want Wellbutrin (which they might try to prescribe though last I knew it was technically off-label). Adderall works best for me (a combination of extended release and short-action), and Ritalin works best for her. I'm not personally familiar with any other stimulant therapies and haven't researched it in a while, so there may be other things out there.

Both Adderall and Ritalin are short-acting -- the extended release Adderall wears off after 6-8 hours for me, and about half that time for the non-XR version.

Good luck.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

The major difference being the the ADD/ADHD folks can focus fantastically well on something that interests them (like raiding for example).

Actually, this is pretty accurate. Hyperfocus "may also be regarded as a psychiatric diagnosis, as a distraction from reality, when it is considered as a symptom of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) or autism spectrum disorder."

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[bcrowell]

Akido37 wrote: Anecdotally, a community college professor in my area (who holds a PhD) was fired because his classes were "too interactive", and he allowed students to "ask too many questions". To me, it sounds like he was doing his job: Helping the students learn. In his case, the college wanted professors to stick to the lesson plan that had been handed down from the administration.

Red Flayer wrote: That's a transfer credit acceptance issue. If that professor deviates too much from the established curriculum, then it is possible that four-year colleges will not accept that course for credit at their institution.

I'm a community college physics teacher in California, and I think both of you may have a somewhat inaccurate understanding of how this works.

First off, the administration doesn't write lesson plans. That's the teacher's job. (A "lesson plan" means lecture notes, plans of demonstrations or videos to use, etc.) There is generally a course outline which is on file as part of the curriculum paperwork for a particular course, sort of like an expanded version of the course description listed in the college catalog. The course outline is not a lesson plan, and it generally says very little about teaching methods. It says things like, e.g., that Newton's laws of motion are one of the topics to be covered in Physics 205. The outline is also not written by the administration, it's written by the faculty (who have the knowledge of the subject area). It's true that the course outline needs to cover the right topics, or else four-year schools won't accept the course as being equivalent to one of theirs. This is called articulation. However, typically nobody looks over your shoulder to see whether you actually cover every topic that's listed. For example, Physics 205 is a real course at my school, and the course outline says that it's supposed to cover fluids. Some teachers at my school do cover fluids, but when I teach the course, I don't, and nobody cares.

In any case, none of this has anything to do imposing particular teaching methods, like chalk-and-talk rather than the kind of dialog that Akido37 liked. Generally the way that works is that when the teacher is first hired, he is on track for tenure, but he has to get regularly evaluated to see if he gets tenure. It is generally not difficult at all to get tenure at a community college. The jobs are difficult to get (often you're competing against a hundred applicants to get an interview), but in the natural science division of the school where I've taught for 13 years, we've probably made 20 tenure-track hires since I've been there, and IIRC there was only one who didn't get tenure. The evaluations are mostly made by your peers, not by an administrator.

Okay, it's true that traditional chalk-and-talk lecturing is the safest choice. As a teacher, you know that your students and peers are familiar with it. If you do it proficiently, your students and peers will give you good evaluations. Interactive teaching methods are harder to do well, although in my field (physics) there's quite a bit of research to show that, when done well, they give better results than chalk and talk (as measured on standardized tests). My experience is that students generally do not like interactive teaching methods. For one thing, it requires that they read the book and make an effort to get as much of the material as possible on their own, rather than just coming to class and having all the material spoon-fed to them. I still use interactive methods, because research shows that they're better, and I get good results with them. However, there is a lot more room to stumble when you're just starting out with interactive methods. For instance, when I was first starting out, I tended to expect my students to be able to do more difficult stuff than they could really do.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[machine321]

Right, you should never give someone medicine to someone to help alleviate symptoms that impact the person's quality of life. There must be something wrong with me, those amphetamines dramatically improved my life and career.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[pak9rabid]

I go with what worked for me.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[mcfatboy93]

Also from a person who is 'diagnosed' with ADHD and is still in Highschool. ADHD is not some disease, it is just a lable for students who are capable of doing the work but just do not get good grades. (trust me i have ADHD and 'can' get good grades but I don't)

its a way the school puts the blame of the student getting bad grades on genetics or enviorment rather than themselves

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[gyrogeerloose]

Hey, this is Slashdot, remember? The course in question was one of the first computerized courses ever offered in the U.S. so my teacher was a mainframe computer in the school district office...

Kidding, of course. She was female, in her twenties and liked to wear high heels, short skirts and tight sweaters.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[cyphercell]

I'm sorry, but no. If you're really smart you will finish first, review your work three times and still be complete before the rest of the class. At that point when someone beats you it's time for a little ego driven competition. Anyways, my kids are learning that they will never be as smart as Matilda and that is enough for me. That and the boy takes a beating to his ego from his sister all the time. (important to remind her she's an idiot compared to Matilda, especially)

Has your therapist given you an IQ test?

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

If only someone had written that wikipedia article about Miller Lite he'd have known!

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[x102output]

if I had mod points left, I'd mod you up. Very well spoken, I feel you've explained my exact situation and opinion on the matter.

The problem I have now is finding time to study and make use of all the interests I have.

That's what I've found with medication treatment as well. It has changed my life.

On the one hand, I tend to agree with the people who think giving young people ADD medication tends to turn them into robots when they might have been more creative otherwise.

I look back and think that it was necessary to live untreated. The creativity and character building is key to being able to live happier later in life and also improve intelligence. Like you said, when you hit that window, is when you need to decide.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[mooingyak]

Yeah... not sure where the funny mod came from, there was no joke in there. I've got a daughter who was diagnosed as ADHD by a neurologist, so I've both observed and read up on it a bit. Plus I can tell the she definitely inherited it from me, though I'm not quite there (only 4 of the 12 symptoms or something like that).

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[x102output]

...school isn't about learning stuff, it's about making sure the rest of the world knows exactly how smart you are.

Best quote ever.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Meneguzzi]

Also, pay teachers reasonably enough that smart and motivated people may want to stick around the education sector rather than wanting to move to better paying administrative positions. The thing is, that people who actually do usually get paid a lot less than the people who bullshit and go to admin. Creating high quality classes is a lot of work, and each in-class hour is worth at least four hours preparing it.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[TuaAmin13]

I had a similar occurrence (stupid punishment for stupid reason, but I'm too young for paddling).

I was given "silent lunch" (you sit separate from everyone else and can't talk) for reading my AR (Accelerated reading book. The AR program gave you points for answering a 10-30 question quiz, depending on the level of the book. Harder books gave you more points, but also had harder quizzes. Most teachers required a certain number of points for each student for a grade).

Anyhow, I was reading my AR book in my 7th grade geography class because I was done with my assignment. Teacher apparently didn't like that, so she gave me and another guy silent lunch. Hurray for being one of the smart people and finishing early...

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[mooingyak]

In my experience, untreated ADD/ADHD means that while you can *sometimes* do that, it's not something you really have control over. IE it's not just interest (or lack thereof) in something, there is some other quality that determines whether you can do the hyper-focus thing on it.

From experience and observation, the hyper-focus tends to come into play more frequently for things the individual in question considers fun, with an especial frequency for video games.

While it's not controlled, the things it usually snaps into place for have a tendency to become the preferred leisure activities.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[dontmakemethink]

I thought ADHD was just a pharmaceutical disorder, kind of like how Father's Day is a Hallmark holiday. It's only considered a disorder instead of just a character trait because pharm companies claimed to have found a cure.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[aaandre]

Sitting in a confined space and listening to boring facts is just not appropriate for human children. We learn by playing, experiencing, moving, experimenting, exploring, doing. Schools are more akin to training camps for factory workers.

As for ADHD, parents and organizations ought to consider feeding children non-toxic food. http://www.myomancy.com/2006/07/add_adhd_diet_a

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[aaandre]

"...And bring back the paddle."

You may be interested in learning about the consequences of using violence and physical abuse as a tool for obedience conditioning of humans.

http://www.alice-miller.com/flyers_en.php?page=7

http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[aaandre]

"A paddle is just a tool. It can be used to play ping pong, and it can be used to correct behavior (to a certain degree). As long as it's not being used maliciously I don't see the problem with it."

Causing pain to another human without their consent violates trust, respect and their core dignity. It is abuse.

Please consider another point of view, backed by research.

You may start here. http://www.alice-miller.com/flyers_en.php?page=7
And here http://www.alfiekohn.com/articles.htm

Thank you.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[aaandre]

Interesting how the oppressive nature of schools touches everyone involved.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Hal_Porter]

I suffer terribly from ADHD and I've been working on a solution. The idea is to use microshock to flip the brain out of its

Ooh look! A Kestrel! I'll go and get my binoculars.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[PollyAnna]

Wow. I can totally relate to your description of your days. I was recently diagnosed (am almost 40) and suddenly my whole life made sense. But, I had been clinically depressed for almost 25 years and nothing really "fixed" that. I am telling you, I spent a lot of time in meditation, ate healthy foods (even went vegan for a while), took every antidepressant you can find, and the older I got, the more I really needed to know the answer because it was affecting every aspect of my life, especially my work.

I started Adderall about a year ago and the difference is astounding. Dr.s use Adderall as a diagnostic. If you respond well (and they check your pulse and heart rate in addition to your feedback), then chances are that you have ADD and can be treated. That was the case for me. I got a second opinion, too. I didn't want to be "swayed" by any drug-related euphoria, so I took myself off and went to another Dr. - same diagnosis. I even had to take my school records, get family feedback, etc.

I never felt like I could do grad school because of this, but now I know I can. As a kid, I had psychiatrists wondering why I had so many problems focusing in school when my "scores" were so high, but all they told my folks was that I was bored and needed a challenge. I ended up majoring in Math, loved it, found it challenging, but still had a horrible time focusing - just exactly like you mentioned with the 5 minute or 30 second days.

I am in the process of a move right now and am in between jobs, so I cut way back on the meds. But I know that when we've relocated and I am working again, they will make a huge difference. I intend to finish that master's I started 6 years ago and know that I have something that finally works for me. Please go to the Dr. No matter what anyone says, it can close a lot of gaps and answer so many questions in your life. Good luck!

PS - I am an educator and am very comfortable working with kids with ADD. Many teachers aren't but many are. The importance of that skill is determined by the Principal (and many of those were poor teachers to begin with). So it is a dice toss about what kind of teacher your kids get. All I can say is that I wish someone had encouraged my folks to consider meds when I was in school. While I ended up getting my Math degree, I was in therapy every week so as not to "sabotage myself". I truly believe medication would have made a huge difference in the development of my confidence, success in school and self-esteem in general. Some kids have to take meds. I always knew I was intelligent and could never understand why I couldn't translate that into my life on a regular basis.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[SpaceCadets]

This might be a tad off topic, but have you seen the movie Dead Poest Society? Your post reminded me of the main character, Mr. Keating (played by Robin Williams), who's "different" approach to teaching was blamed on a student's suicide and resulted in his dismissal. An example of his approach was teaching his boys (this movie is set a few years back in an all-male school) the dangers of conformity by having them walk "in thier own way" around a courtyard. I found the movie thought provoking at the time, and it remains one of my favorites to this day. (Side note, if anyone is thinking I'm trying to say that Akido's collage professor was right in being fired, that's not what I'm saying at all. The best teachers I've learned off were the outside the box ones.)

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

That is easy for you to say. The problem is, as somebody with ADHD, the harder I try to focus, the less I am able to do so. Remember, I can't focus on things I find interesting either... if I could do it without medication, I would, trust me.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[dave562]

I'm only slight above average in the IQ department. The last time I was tested was in third grade before I went into "gifted" education and my IQ was in the 140s. I realize that reading my original response to your post, I came across as a little hostile. That wasn't my intent. As I read your post it reminded me a lot of myself. I know that your intentions are good and that you want to help your child focus on school work. I think that the way you're doing it is by giving him some high-level meta messages that have the potential for a serious downside.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[grrrl]

I didn't say no-one has ADD/ADHD, just that the grandparent poster seemed to commit to ADD as an excuse rather than recognising what might simply be a developmental issue. Just because the effect is the same doesn't mean the diagnosis is.

I understand the frustrations of being unable to focus, and if medication helps you without serious side effects I say go for it. Especially if (as it seems) you have tried your damnedest without.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[drinkypoo]

Tell me, what is this magical power the police has that solves everything?

To remove the child physically from the classroom now that In Loco Parentis has broken down.

What if the policeman hits him? Is he allowed with his magical powers?

No. I won't be hitting a policeman, though. Everyone knows that in that situation you would sue. It's not necessary for a grown policeman to beat a nine year old.

Of course, again, I don't have children. I don't consider myself responsible or patient enough to raise them to be responsible humans.

Yes it is. But if you don't do it, don't be surprised if someone else will.

I maintain that if anyone is backhanding your child, you have failed in your job, and that includes you.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[cyphercell]

No offense taken. In fact, I was a little worried about my wording as well.

Matilda by Roald Dahl is a great book for kids that are a little bit smarter than average, it's both humiliating and at the same time it empowers kids to think in terms of intelligence as being a sort of superpower. I highly recommend it, even for adults.

Basically, I'm not certain my ADD is environmental or biological. Generally, my doctors usally advise that I'm not doing too bad, I seem to manage okay, and they leave the question of drugs up to me. After some of the comments here I'm reconsidering as I've always said no.

My son is too young and operates along these lines much better than his sis or even I do. All of his marks are excellent and he is really good about setting aside time for daydreaming or getting things done so he can go back to letting his mind wander. I brought up the homework situation mostly because I felt like others around here could identify and think of ways they could communicate the importance of school to their children if they were having the same problems. The speed tests are specific to certain types of homework. Sometimes we use it during reading, but I make sure it isn't going to cause him distress. I think the most important thing is that each piece of homework gathers his attention in a different way. There are particular ways to approach different problems and sometimes there several ways to approach the same problem. For the specific case of "I'm bored, it's too easy" I've settled on speed tests, explaining the importance of practice and the value of recognition. My point was that the way it was explained to me as a child was illogical and confusing, which caused me to think about the explaination rather than the homework.

As a disclaimer I'd like to say that the sort of boredom with school work I experienced is perfectly normal. It doesn't necessarily relate to being smart. School work can be boring. I was just trying to say that not being acknowledged for who you are can be very difficult. It's important for people to understand their intelligence level and how they relate to others because of it. When a smart kid does poorly in school it especially sets a bad example for kids that lack discipline and haven't got the talent to make up for it. It's frustrating for the kids that earn their Cs and undermines the educational process altogether. Whether that is the kid's, parent's or teacher's fault is beyond me. But the grandparent post had placed the blame directly on teachers who blamed the kids, I was trying to show that some of it can be corrected at home even though I had serious issues with the way I was dealt with at school.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Daychilde]

As someone who has been diagnosed with ADHD, I have to say that my personal experience with Ritalin has been life-changing.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Daychilde]

You would be incorrect. It's quite real. I was diagnosed at age 32, and Ritalin has truly changed my life.

Different solutions are better for different people. But ADHD is quite real.

There are arguments that it's over-diagnosed. Well, that may well be, but it doesn't change the fact that it's very real.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

And also fire the horrible teachers that make learning a horrible, horrible chore. Oops, I stopped reading at amphetamines.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Borg Bucolic]

I'm not sure how helping doctors turned into crapping on teachers and how they do their jobs. When children are not learning, everybody likes to blame someone for it. Teacher's unions have nothing to do with how a teacher teaches. They just keep the public from railroading teachers every time someone is not happy about something in education. The problems with education have nothing to do with teachers, unions, funding, or any of that. The biggest problems are: 1. The current cultural belief that being ignorant and stupid is OK and possibly entertaining. 2. That all society's ills, that have nothing to do with education, can be cured at schools. 3. That somehow teachers can educate students that don't want it or don't show up to class. 4. That homogeneously mixing children is going to improve the education of low performers by mixing them high performers, and is not a detriment to both. 5. That everybody who has experienced the educational system is an expert on how to teach in it. (a big one for me) 6. That teachers or unions have any control on how or what they teach. 7. That someone is to blame for a crappy child's behavior. 8. That children raising children makes for responsible parents. 9. That every child is entitled to good outcome even if they didn't work for it or deserve it. 10. When parents learn that schools are not a free baby sitting service. 11. That not every person who graduates from high school wants to go to college. 12. That the country should actually decide the purpose of education, besides college prep. 13. Don't move a child onto the next grade or educational level after failing so that their self esteem will not be damaged. It only makes matters worse. 14. Give up the idea that teachers are not your child's parents, psychologists, or entertainers. 15. That some people actually believe that EVERY child can be educated to the level of college readiness in exactly a proscribed amount of time and methodology. Assuming of course that all children can be educated to that level. **Shall I go on?** EVERYBODY loves to blame teachers and unions for all the crap in education, because they don't want to admit to their contribution to it. The detriment to education comes from the outside, not from within.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Eli Gottlieb]

Average usually means mean rather than median. Oh, and the fact that 50% are above and 50% are below the median comes from its definition.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Eli Gottlieb]

It's when they tried to teach math to children from the "ground up" based on set theory and logic. Needless to say, it didn't work that well.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[shadowbearer]

  Corollary: No adult too far ahead.

SB

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[ppanon]

Yep. Unfortunately I was wrong. Miller Lite at one point contained several ingredients not normally found in beer, including manufactured chemical additives. "The Center for Science in the Public Interest is a Non-profit organization watchdog journalism and consumer advocacy group headquartered in Washington, D.C.... reported in 1982 that Miller Lite contained Propylene glycol, alginate (a seaweed extract), water, barley malt, corn syrup, chemically modified hops extracts, yeast, amyloglucosidase, carbon dioxide, papain enzyme, liquid sugar, potassium metabisulfite, and Emka malt (a food coloring). Today, the company claims their beverage contains water, corn syrup, malted barley, and hops." Apparently I must have gotten it confused with Budweiser or Miller Genuine Draft.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[shadowbearer]

Now in the "adult" world (it disappoints me that many adult are overgrown children), I know ADD is real because I'm certainly smart enough to write code that implements business rules, but I often lose track of important conversations. I constantly end up asking not for clarification of a topic, but just to hear things restated verbatim because the words went in one ear and out the other.

  In my experience,that's not ADD. That's being in a useless, mindless, endless job, mostly populated by coworkers who feel about the same way about it, even if they can't even determine that for themselves.

  Get out, while you can. You still can; the fact that you can talk about it that way, means you still have something of yourself left.

  There is no such thing as the "adult world". There is only people who do their job, people who don't, people who you respect, and people you don't. Life is a bit more complicated than that, but in that position, it's about the best way to look at it that will get you out to somewhere you can find some self respect. Make the leap. It's not a very comfortable world, and you'll be challenged by it, but you won't want to go back to being beholden by people who can't think past their next promotion.

  It reminds me of an old saying: "There are no adult dogs; just old, trained puppies."

  Our society - our global society, not just here in the US - needs more people who think for themselves. People who think for themselves are the ones who change the world.

SB

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[slimer]

As a kid and a young adult, I was just like you. I couldn't quite fathom it back then. My way of describing the sensation is like having someone who constantly taps you on the shoulder to ask you questions about something entirely different than you're trying to focus on. For instance, while walking from the living room to pick something up from the kitchen, I could forget why I was going to the kitchen at all because I spotted a piece of paper with a logo on it which reminded me of unpaid bills. While trying to find my bills (all in unsorted piles all over the apartment, of course), I would be reminded of something else, etc. Several hours later, having done nothing of relevance, I would start to wonder why my stomach was growling, walk up to the kitchen and stare into my empty fridge.

I, too, wouldn't have been able to read a post as long as yours through without taking breaks. Now, thanks to 90 mg of methylphenidate every morning, I had no such difficulties, even though people are moving in the background and I have a hum of background noise here at the office - well drowned by my headphones, though.

Of course, everyone have these symptoms to a lesser or greater extent, and to be diagnosed you need to be on the 'wrong' side of the cut-off point, that's the definition of ADHD/ADD, at least here in Sweden. "Now", you say, "this happens to me, too! ADHD/ADD-people are just lazy bums". Sure, it happens to you too. It most probably doesn't happen all the time, every day. If it does, I recommend seeking treatment.

I have an IQ of 150+, and I am well liked and sociable. I have strong communication skills and I am very good at what I do. Before I was 'diagnosed', I lost a jobs, several girlfriends and lots of friends, I slipped into several depressions and I flunked university bad, twice. My father has had to lend me money through parts of my life, and for a couple of years I gave him control of my economy, just for my bills to be paid.

90 mg of methylphenidate each morning has given me the opportunity to get up every morning and go to work (because I'm so exhausted when it wears off in the evening that my day has a, for me, unprecedented regularity). It has given me the opportunity to do my job well all the time, every day, because I don't have to depend on the "good days" to get stuff done. It has given me the opportunity to start a family which I am about to do, because with methylphenidate, I am startingly like a dependable adult and not a 32-year old impulsive teenager unable to shoulder responsibility.

I am able to look further than trying to have clean socks in the morning and trying to pay the bills. At last, I am able to realise my potential and I am able to dream of a normal life.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like your more perceptive them most. I have the same problem at work where I'll notice subtle details or changes in the office, movement of anything or anyone in my line of sight, lights "starting" to go bad, and that one time I noticed the clock's second hand hopping at the 50sec mark.... all while working on router config.

So would you call that an inability to focus, or hyper awareness?

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Ihlosi]

Oh, he is 7 years old and running around like this after a sugary meal?

"Sugar buzz" is a myth. If your blood sugar regulation is working correctly, sugar will make you tired, if anything.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

But back before being ADHD was, for lack of a better word, 'trendy' it was pretty clear which kids had the problem.

ADHD is the aspergers of children.

"Oh no, little Johnny has ADHD. That's totally why I drug him not that I don't want to deal with the little snot."

Hell, the lack of attention in most of them is entirely because the parents plop them down in front of the TV. 22 minutes of show with 8 minutes of 30 second commercials every 30 minutes? This is why PBS with its no commercials is better than having your kids watch commercialized channels. At least they have solid blocks of television to teach the kids to focus.

THOSE kids aren't ADHD. They've just been through conditioning that screws up their attention spans.

Yes, I do admit real ADHD kids exist. But they exist in the same proportion as real aspergers cases exist vs. "self diagnosed" aspergers.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Ihlosi]

ADHD is the aspergers of children.

Err .. no. Those two are completely separate disorders. And kids can have either, or even both.

Hell, the lack of attention in most of them is entirely because the parents plop them down in front of the TV.

I have a kid with ADHD, and believe me, I'd be more than happy if I could just "plop him down in front of the TV" for a minute. But he doesn't watch TV. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. Because that would mean he'd actually have to sit on the couch for more than 30 seconds. Instead, he'll sit down for 29 seconds (at most), and then jump up to either play with the remote, the buttons on the TV set, the radio or the books on the shelves, or climb on the window sill, or run to the bedroom to jump on the bed, or climb in his sisters crib, or just run outside. _Anything_ other than sitting still and watching TV.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to like taking things out of context.

The "Aspergers of children" remark was to state how often people diagnose it to excuse their own failings. Parents and teachers say the child has ADHD to forget that the child might have been raised horribly. People who self diagnose Aspergers (and I'm sure slashdot will be up in arms about this) give it as an excuse for their lack of social aptitude.

As for the "plop them in front of the TV" remark, if you read on I meant that the child would learn, from early exposure to television, that short attention spans are proper. Did you child have ADHD when you first placed him in front of the TV at 6 months old to watch the flashing colors and fast paced images to his newly developing brain? No? Well then he learned that things should happen quickly so he's got a short attention span.

Also, in order to play your game as you played it.

I'd be more than happy if I could just "plop him down in front of the TV" for a minute

Yeah, the fact that you want to just drop your kid in front of the TV makes you out to seem like an amazing parent.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Ihlosi]

Did you child have ADHD when you first placed him in front of the TV at 6 months old to watch the flashing colors and fast paced images to his newly developing brain? No?

In fact, after reading up on ADHD symptoms in infancy, I can say yes, he was pretty much showing the symptoms from the minute he was born. He must have gotten it from the one brief look at the patient monitors screen in the delivery room, right?

Yeah, the fact that you want to just drop your kid in front of the TV makes you out to seem like an amazing parent.

Yes, great, you may be able to spend 12 hours without a bathroom break, but I for sure don't. And right now, taking that break means a high chance of having to do damage control (highly annoying and time-consuming) and mete out punishment (highly unpleasant for everyone involved and entirely without effect) afterwards.

That may be news to you, but parents need breaks, too. With a kid with ADHD, you only get a break when the kid is asleep. Not getting the breaks you need won't make you a good parent. In fact, it'll turn you into a horrible parent over time.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet nowhere have I said your child doesn't have ADHD. My entire point was that a vast majority of children diagnosed with ADHD are, in fact, not sufferers of it. Does this mean I believe your child has ADHD? He might. He might not. I'm skeptical of any diagnosis of ADHD due to confounding variables.

Or do you mean to say that everyone diagnosed with something does have it? That every child diagnosed with ADHD does in fact have the disorder? The insanity brought upon by believing every

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[shiftless]

That's not ADD, that's a hearing impairment called CAPD.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder why this ADHD problem seems to only appear in the US...?
I never heard of it in my country.
Here, our kids behave like... you know... kids... curious, full of energy... happy.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Ihlosi]

I wonder why this ADHD problem seems to only appear in the US...?

It's the same problem everywhere. The problem in the US is that it's massively overdiagnosed (90% of the produced methylphenidate is consumed in the US).

ADHD isn't new. It's been known under various names as a psychiatric disorder for over a century.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[thannine]

Well you're not going to burst my bubble, it's soundly in tact. While that might be your opinion, and you're certainly welcome to it I happen to have a different viewpoint. I do oppose the teaching of evolution in the classroom for a whole host of reasons that I'm not going to get into here. That doesn't mean I'm a whackjob, it means I care about my kids and don't want to see them subjected to what I see as a bunch of politicised nonsense that has little to do with true science.

So, you just proved the parent's point that the homeschooling is done because of whackjob parents who don't like the fact that schools actually educate children instead of feeding the "true science" your religion happens to accept. BTW. The only "politicised nonsense" in schools taught instead of science is creationism. And luckily that isn't taught in all the schools.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[clifyt]

I was making a point about ADHD...not about sugar...at that age, ANYTHING will set kids off...including sugar...or lack of sugar...or just enough sugar...

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[wolfmanx]

Diagnosed at 40. Ritalin does have its merits.

Over-diagnosing may be possible, over-treatment however cannot prevail.

Amphetamines in low dosage have a paradox effect on people with ADD: it calms them down.
If you do not have ADD, amphetamines do not calm you down.
It is therefore not possible to gain positive results from Ritalin, if you do not have ADD.

I do recall that my grades were very dependent on the teacher I had.
However, I find it hard to identify a "shitty" teacher, since it is a totally subjective category.

The problem is that any one teacher will be "good" for some people and "shitty" for other people.
The same goes for the entire concept of "put all kinds of personalities in a single room and make them listen to a single person".

As long as the fact is ignored that there are different personality types, the whole "industrial normative education system" will make some people suffer. It is this suffering that has negative long-term effects, not actually the ADD itself.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a healthy kid. Running around playing, rather than sitting and watching the mindless indoctrinating crap on the lazy-box.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Ihlosi]

Sounds like a healthy kid. Running around playing,

The problem is, he's not playing _with_ other kids. He loses interest in group activities almost instantly and then runs off to do things on his own (throw rocks, play with dirt, flip light switches, open drawers, try to climb the fence, etc). He also has a hard time sitting still for group activities (singing, playing games) - he loves music and will sit still while a song is being song, but will run off as soon as the song is finished.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[ultranova]

Causing pain to another human without their consent violates trust, respect and their core dignity. It is abuse.

And that serves to teach a very important lesson: you are only guaranteed these things if there isn't anyone stronger than you around. If there are, you'd better concentrate on kissing their ass, because otherwise they'll beat yours.

Trust no one. That's the most important lesson to learn.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[The Spoonman]

Funny, I was diagnosed with it a few years back and since having been put on medication most of the issues I faced in the day-to-day have been eliminated. Perhaps you were misdiagnosed, but that don't mean the problem don't exist.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Have Brain Will Rent]

I don't think it is just the late teens and early twenties. Someone with ADHD is going to continually and for the rest of their life be making different depending on what, if any, medication regime, including self-medication, they practice. Some people think children are being drugged willy-nilly just for being rambunctious and I tend to agree. That doesn't mean ADHD isn't real and it doesn't mean that people with ADHD don't benefit from medication - far better prescribed and monitored stimulants than continuous caffeine intake coupled with a pack-a-day smoking habits both of which are common self-medicating responses to untreated ADHD. And non-stimulant treatments are now appearing.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Have Brain Will Rent]

The difference is that there are times that there are things I enjoy and should be concentrating on. Worst case scenario is sex. (And this should trigger some +5 Funny's at my expense) But there are some times where my mind is jumping to what is that noise downstairs, did I switch over the laundry, what am I having for dinner, etc. And trust me, it's not fun.

Not being able to concentrate on things you are interested in is an important symptom and something most non-afflicted people just don't understand. The sex thing (and good for you to mention it) can bring incredible suffering for people. I've known both men and women who simply cannot achieve orgasm if anything happens to distract them, including some random thought, during the act. Once it happens they have to "start over from the beginning"... and then have that happen over and over again. It ruins a fundamental part of life, it ruins relationships - it's truly tragic.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[AK Marc]

I had "silent lunch" by being locked in a closet (a large one with a desk) every lunch period. I was happy with it because it was the one hour a day the teacher wouldn't bother me. It lasted almost all year. I never even mentioned it because I didn't even realize it was punishment at the time. It's like sending a child to his room for punishment when he'd rather be in his room.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Golddess]

It's not necessary for a grown policeman to beat a nine year old

You've obviously never seen a fight break out in a US public school...

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Anonymous Coward]

I can tell you. Most of the time it isn't the teachers (yes some teachers are boring). Teachers don't cause ADHD. Hell if anything its technology with games consisting of constant movement and blinking.

ADHD is a personality(read:mental) disorder. It is something you can control. Just like stress, happiness, boredom, even tiredness. I've met plenty of people who use the cop out of ADHD if they get bored. We need to quit with all the diagnosis' about each individual person having some disorder, and just realize, you are who you are and want to be.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[sheph]

Well and you've just proved that you have nothing to bring to the table other than your own opinion.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[sheph]

Well gee... I guess I've been wrong all these years because someone did a study. Color me corrected then. I was spanked with a paddle in school, given the belt by my father, repeatedly beaten with his fists on more than one occasion, and perpetually called names and all manor of such things. Guess what? I lived. I'm not an axe murderer, I don't find pleasure in violence, and I'm not about to treat my children the same way I was treated. I do however recognize that physical discipline was at times a deterant, so I take the good and leave the bad. Guess why? Because I have the capacity to learn not only from my own mistakes, but from the mistakes of my parents as well. This idea that a certain form of discipline can be directly correlated to violent behavior is nothing but fodder for lawyers sticking up for ill behaved members of society. It's high time we embraced personal responsibility instead of blaming all of our problems on some external event out of our control. Regardless of how I was brought up I have responsibility to do what's right now. Bullshit excuses about how I was raised are nothing more than just that. Bullshit. And so it is for everyone else. Nobody controls your actions but you.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[Ihlosi]

It is something you can control.

No. If you can control it, then it's not a disorder.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[sjames]

The police are not there to handle discipline problems. Up to the point of physical violence, and corporal punishment should come from the parents or at least with their permission (I recall when I was in school, the principal had standing parental permission for a couple of kids).

Kicking the teacher crosses the line. Expecting anything short of the teacher knocking the kid on his ass and dragging him (by his hair if necessary) to the principal's office is nonsense. Everyone, including teachers, has a natural right to defend themselves against assault.

The parents can then handle the followup beating of the butt.

Re:get rid of shitty teachers

[jellomizer]

Even though I personally dislike the teachers union. My post wasn't about abolishing the teachers union or their personal stance. It was response to the question on Why not get rid of the bad teachers, vs giving the kids more drugs. The fact is, it is hard to fire Unioned Teachers no matter what their quality is. And if you are going to to try to weed out bad teacher the Teacher Unions will fight back really hard.

I don't care if you are Pro-Union or Anti-Union. A Union (as its was designed) is a powerful force to reckon.

Overdiagnosis...

[Akido37]

If enough people are diagnosed with ADHD, when does it become "normal"?

Re:Overdiagnosis...

[Anonymous Coward]

When they can't make money selling drugs for it.

Re:Overdiagnosis...

[Eli Gottlieb]

Is the diagnosis rate that high? Normally I don't buy into this "society has oppressed human nature" bullcrap, but if it was found that a majority of the population has ADHD I'd suddenly have to seriously look at arguments that we're failing to accommodate our own natures.

Everyone knows the most accurate ADHD diagnosis

[Anonymous Coward]

...is made by kirlian photography.

Normies

[incognito84]

...normal people and those with ADHD.

The last normal person was born a decade ago. Since then, every child born has either ADHD or some other kind of learning difference preventing them from being able to pay attention. It has nothing to do with the education system or the fact that it has failed to reach out to modern yo--Ooh! A puppy!

I dont get it?

[jellomizer]

If "normal people" can sit through high-school classes without being distracted and grumpy, count me out.
So you don't want to be happy and focused? When you grumpy and distracted you are in no ways focusing on learning material. And probably distracting others from learning too.

Re:I dont get it?

[Darkness404]

The problem is most high school courses are courses that have no point in the real world. No one especially not at 16, 17 or 18 cares to know about something that doesn't matter, especially when its taught by an uninteresting teacher who can't teach.

Re:I dont get it?

[Alzheimers]

To paraphrase the great Walter Biship, "It only doesn't matter, until it does."

Re:I dont get it?

[idontgno]

Well, here's the real problem. You don't know what point anything has in the real world. Never. Particularly, not at the age of 17. But even at the age of 47, or 77. Because the real world changes, and the most interesting changes take directions you can't even fantasize about, let alone accurately predict.

So, to write off any knowledge as irrelevant is short-sighted and foolish. When you ultimately need to know it, you may not have time to learn it.

Learn everything. There's no good excuse not to.

Re:I dont get it?

[Darkness404]

But if someone is good at one thing, does it well throughout life, they will usually have a job when their current industry is destroyed because a second industry often larger emerges from the ashes of the first.

Re:I dont get it?

[shmlco]

You live in a modern, technologically advanced society. Science has a point. Biology has a point. Knowing how government and the financial and legal systems work have a point. Knowing how civilizations rise (and, more importantly, fall) has a point. Math skills let you do more than count change at McDonalds. English and communication skills have a point no matter WHAT you plan to do with your life.

Education allows you to have MEANINGFUL opinions on subjects that matter.

Ignore it, and you wind up being an ignorant, easily manipulated savage who doesn't know what to do when the magic button on the remote control stops working and the voice stops whispering in his ear...

Re:I dont get it?

[internerdj]

As someone with a BS and MS, the most important classes in high school were the ones that didn't fit what I eventually made my career in: English. The best skill I picked up in high school was the ability to do research and write papers, that came out of my English classes. I certainly wouldn't have been the same without all my science course but I don't think I could have made it through my undergrad much less my Master's without the foundation in writing.

Re:I dont get it?

[ivan256]

The problem is that when you're 16-18, you don't have any clue what has a point in the real world. If you think you know that your high-school class has no point, all it means is that your parents didn't teach you the lessons that they were supposed to... If you coddle a kid and tell them that they're the best thing ever to have happened to the world, they can then have sufficient ego to decide that the things adults have chosen to make them learn are 'useless'.

If the parents of those kids hadn't failed them, the kids could take some initiative and chose to learn the material despite having an uninteresting teacher.

Re:I dont get it?

[Anonymous Coward]

>Well, here's the real problem. You don't know what point anything has in the real world.[...] changes take directions you can't even fantasize about, let alone accurately predict.
.
Let alone teach before it changed.
.
>So, to write off any knowledge as irrelevant is short-sighted and foolish. When you ultimately need to know it, you may not have time to learn it.
.
Believe it or not, the available time per day is limited and one of the most valuable skills you learn at university is exactly how to skip knowledge which you don't need right now. If you didn't do that, you'd just get the important things (also in life) buried under a mile of crap.
.
I'm not sure what the "have time to learn it" refers to. Certainly life-saving stuff needs to be learned and specially marked as life-saving. Other than then, how would you not "have time" to learn something you actually need/want?
.
>Learn everything. There's no good excuse not to.
.
Except that I have better things to do than to try to do the impossible. Really, why would I need to pre-learn everything?
.
Now if you said "Learn things you see the value of", that would be advice I could agree to.
.
But "Learn everything"? That would be questionable advice even if everything you had access to was actually interesting and/or useful: you'd just collapse of overwork.
.
And in a high school, where they teach you inane stuff just to keep you busy?
.
I am aware that maybe you didn't mean it to these extremes but just take this as a counter argument for the extreme case.
.
cheers,
      Danny

Re:I dont get it?

[Cro Magnon]

It's not that easy to know what will matter in the real world. I wasn't that interested in history and didn't see what use it would be. But I learned some from reading the textbook while tuning out that boring teacher. And in retrospect, I'm glad I learned it.

Haven't...

[Darkness404]

Haven't people realized by now that ADHD is nothing more than a symptom of our education system and not a syndrome in and of itself?

Re:Haven't...

[rift321]

Yes, in fact, many policymakers and educators already know this, but lack a practical alternative that can be widely implemented.... unless someone knows more about this...

Re:Haven't...

[Darkness404]

Practical alternatives: Less general education and more specialized education. Most people who are diagnosed with ADHD have a certain field that they really care about and can really excel in, be it woodworking, computers, certain branches of science, history, etc. Our education system does not let students really customize what works for them. An ADHD student who really wants to be a welder and is amazing at welding isn't going to care too much about things that aren't related to welding such as history. That student then does poorly in history. Put that student in a shop class and they will do amazing. We try to have far too generic classes that are mandated in education, allow students to pick what they want to be in and learn that rather than things that they don't care about and the ADHD program will slowly fade away.

Re:Haven't...

[yali]

Haven't people realized by now that the fact that some people are misdiagnosed with ADHD doesn't mean that the condition isn't real?

The problem is that there is a gap between the fairly extensive diagnostic procedures that should be used and what sometimes happens in practice (5-minute office visit where general practitioner hands out prescriptions on the school's or parent's sayso). I don't blame people for being skeptical, but that doesn't mean there aren't real kids (or adults) with a real disorder.

Re:Haven't...

[TheRaven64]

I think you need a vacation. Remember, one cubic centimetre cures ten gloomy sentiments.

Re:Haven't...

[interkin3tic]

Haven't people realized by now that ADHD is nothing more than a symptom of our education system and not a syndrome in and of itself?

I can tell you I have ADD. Whether that last D should be "disorder" or something more along the lines of "that may be normal but I still don't like" is up to people who care more about semantics than I do. It may be within normal variation, but I still don't like being able to focus less than my colleagues. I don't care what constitutes a disorder, if taking adderol when I need to focus is corrective or elective, it still helps.

It's also worth pointing out that I'm not talking about sitting through high school lectures, not that high school lectures are unimportant.

Re:Haven't...

[Anonymous Coward]

And when all welding is taking over by machines, what then will that student do? Mooch off the government? School is supposed to be used for learning how to learn imo. Things change.

Re:Haven't...

[Anonymous Coward]

The parent statement-in-the-form-of-a-question is absolutely false.

Do not mod it up as informative.

Re:Haven't...

[Darkness404]

When (if) all the welding is taken over by machines the student can simply go to the next thing. Be that repairing the welding machines, welding smaller hand crafted things that machines can't/won't do, or running the welding machines.

Schools do not teach you how to learn, at least not the public schools in the USA. They teach you how to fill in a blank, how to guess the right choice, how to cram for some useless test, how to score high on a standardized test, etc. We must remember that societies, throughout all time are like a pyramid, at the base are the people who can't do anything, above them are the people who do a lot of things but can't do them well, then above them are the people who can do a lot of things but do them well, above them are the people who do one thing and can do it well. Our education system was designed to move people up the pyramid, sadly we stop at giving a lot of varied education but no one does it well. Most people who are diagnosed with ADHD don't fit into that, they do one thing and do it well. If there is one thing history has told us it is that things change, jobs are destroyed but even more are created and those who do well at the job that was destroyed will find their place easily in one thats created from the destruction.

Re:Haven't...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you need a vacation. Remember, one cubic centimetre cures ten gloomy sentiments.

Thank Ford.

Re:Haven't...

[shmlco]

"We try to have far too generic classes that are mandated in education, allow students to pick what they want to be in and learn that rather than things that they don't care about..."

Math, science, history, government, and many other subjects are REQUIREMENTS for living in today's society. At least, they are if you want to be anything other than an easily replaced cog in the machine. Which leads us back to the point that, at that age, you do NOT know what's best. Many students would rather party than learn anything at all, and who's to blame them? But there seems to be a distinct lack of paying jobs for people who like to attend parties.

What's needed, IMHO, are teachers who can make those subjects RELEVANT. Show the would-be welder how materials science impacts his work. Why business and econ and English communication skills are needed for someone that might just want to run his own business some day. And so on.

Education is important, and most kids are too stupid to realize it.

Re:Haven't...

[atraintocry]

Not everyone who has it goes to school.

Re:Haven't...

[jeffliott]

Unbelievable. Consider for a moment that some people can concentrate very well. Consider that there are also people who can hardly concentrate at all. Haven't you realized that the above statements are obviously true? Consider for a moment that some people are experiencing symptoms outside of an educational environment. The stimulants given for treatment of ADHD significantly boost the ability to concentrate of those on the lower end of the spectrum. If it makes their life better by their own opinion, this is all that matters. If not, then they don't take it. The +5 mod points are totally wasted on your post.

Re:Haven't...

[nxtw]

Practical alternatives: Less general education and more specialized education. Most people who are diagnosed with ADHD have a certain field that they really care about and can really excel in, be it woodworking, computers, certain branches of science, history, etc. Our education system does not let students really customize what works for them. An ADHD student who really wants to be a welder and is amazing at welding isn't going to care too much about things that aren't related to welding such as history. That student then does poorly in history. Put that student in a shop class and they will do amazing. We try to have far too generic classes that are mandated in education, allow students to pick what they want to be in and learn that rather than things that they don't care about and the ADHD program will slowly fade away.

And how do you know this? Have you performed extensive studies or gathered any data?

This phenomenom you describe is not listed in the DSM-IV TR at all.

Re:Haven't...

[Kerkyon]

I was diagnosed with ADD the year I turned 25. I was a straight-A student until high school, where I finally got a B. Then I did relatively well in college. My mental function is not a symptom of the educational system.

You only say this because you have not experienced the cognition-halting static that sometimes goes along with it, or the scattered thinking that can lead to thinking about, well, anything else during sex, or the loss of 8 hours because you were too focused on something, or the experience of physical pain while standing in a long line.

It is frustrating that anyone, anywhere, thinks that ADD is about attention, or that it's a deficit of anything, or that it's a disorder. It's about a lack of the ability to consciously control your thought processes that most of the people in the world take for granted. It is just how my brain works, and it can be useful or it can be harmful. It just doesn't fit with how our social structures are set up.

(I focus on the attention-oriented aspects above because these are the ones that people have a hope of understanding. The impulsivity is by far the worst symptom, but it's hard to explain in a way where people don't immediately jump to "Well, just don't do that," as a response.)

Re:Haven't...

[bcrowell]

Haven't people realized by now that the fact that some people are misdiagnosed with ADHD doesn't mean that the condition isn't real? I don't blame people for being skeptical, but that doesn't mean there aren't real kids (or adults) with a real disorder.

One problem is that the symptoms listed in the link you provided form a continuum. Suppose you take a thousand kids and sort them out in a line according to how well they match these criteria, with kid #1 matching the best and kid #1000 giving the worst match. So #1 definitely has ADHD, and kid #1000 definitely doesn't. Now where do you draw the line? At kid #10? At kid #100? Parents have a strong incentive to get their kids classified as having the disability. If they get the kid classified as disabled, then the kid will get pills, which the parents hope will make the kid easier to deal with. If the kid is classified as disabled, the kid will get extra time on tests.

The cool thing about the possible new method described in TFA is that the determination of ADHD might become more of an objective matter, rather than a matter of whether affluent, pushy parents can bargain for what they want.

I teach at a community college, and the number of students who are diagnosed with learning disabilities is extremely high. I'm not even allowed to ask what their disability is; all I know is that they get special test-taking accomodations. The fact that so many of them have the diagnosis makes me suspect that the condition must be vastly overdiagnosed. If it weren't so overdiagnosed, then society might be able to focus better on helping the students who really do have a hardwired problem that makes their brain work in a qualitatively different way.

Re:Haven't...

[wwwhippet]

As someone who struggled with undiagnosed ADHD until diagnosed in my thirties, I can assure you that ADHD has nothing to do with our educational system.

Our educational system may be abusing the diagnosis and pushing the use of drugs inappropriately. It may be ignoring or failing to address the individualized needs of students.

That doesn't discount the reality of ADHD.

The way in which you broadly discount ADHD by blaming the educational system is no more credible than teachers diagnosing their students as ADHD.

Re:Haven't...

[Eli Gottlieb]

Look, it isn't. I was diagnosed at age 17, when out of high school. It's real, it's biological, and it's genetic. It's just also about as overblown as terrorism.

Re:Haven't...

[Eli Gottlieb]

It's because you work in community college, which is primarily for people who couldn't get into real college because of their disabilities or because of their cash-flow problems.

Re:Haven't...

[Ihlosi]

It is frustrating that anyone, anywhere, thinks that ADD is about attention, or that it's a deficit of anything, or that it's a disorder.

They should (once again) rename it - to "attention control disorder". People with ADHD have plenty of attention (not more or less that people without it), they have difficulty controlling what they focus their attention on.

And the simpler solution is . . .

[siloko]

develop an EEG system to help doctors diagnose attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)

errr or just talk to the parents . . .

Re:And the simpler solution is . . .

[Darkness404]

...And the parents will say that they are clearly ADHD! Because they don't like eating vegetables, they would rather play outside then sit through church, they would rather play video games than read and they don't particularly like school. CLEARLY the answer is that its ADHD and not just the fact that most kids observe most of the ADHD symptoms. And of course the answer is never to improve the education system or just let kids behave as kids but its obviously to drug them up!

Re:And the simpler solution is . . .

[siloko]

of course I was being facetious and I agree with what you say up to a point. But just like it is important to let kids be kids it is also important to respect what parents have to offer in the assessment of their kids' behaviour - after all they are [often] the closest to them and have the most empathy with their foibles.

Re:And the simpler solution is . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

If they won't sit through church, they're not ADHD - they're the Antichrist!!!

We should just pre-emptively burn them at the stake.

Thank you,
A concerned parent.

Re:And the simpler solution is . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Strangely everyone here is talking about ADHD as a child. I was diagnosed around age 30. So think again that is is just kids being kids. I struggled at college and only made it though due to panic stimulating me to make my brain function more normally so I could get things done by my deadlines. For me it is all about stimulation. I have a very difficult time with getting mundane things done like paying bills or filling out rebate forms on time.

I have read some books about ADD/ADHD and one of the discoverys they have made is the concentration center of the brain gets turned off so you can't concentrate. Medications turn the concentration center back on so you can concentrate. They did this with MRIs and a chemichal marker to see blood flow I believe. I don't have the book any more so I can't say who it was other than a Dr. in California.

I have a bachelor's and a job working in IT. Ovbiously I have some smarts and some ability to concentrate. The secret for me is there is always some thing new going on to keep me interested and enough going on that when I miss some stuff it is covered up by the fact that we all miss stuff.

People just don't want to believe in ADD/ADHD they just want to think we are all lazy, and undisciplined.

Try this on for size hold to magnets together when they want to repel each other, it takes two hands and concentration. NOW try and get some work done. That is what concentrating on things when you have ADD/ADHD can be like. I remember being in 6th grade and needing to write a book report or I would fail and have to repeat 6th grade. It took me a week to do it. I had already read the book, and I wanted to do the work I just could not make myself do it. I was sitting at a desk at a neighbor's house being watched so I did nothing else. It took me a week, me WANTING to do it and I could not focus enough to get it done.

When I was diagnosed it was by a specialist and I filled out a survey, and so did my wife. Her responses were much different than mine (about me). I also had to take an excruciatingly boring test for 45 minutes. The only way I could keep going was because I knew I'd NEVER have to take it again.

I'm not a good writer or speller, so if you could read this and follow my thoughts congratulations!

Re:And the simpler solution is . . .

[Eli Gottlieb]

So just wait until they're adults to diagnose it, like a proper medical establishment.

And in the meantime make school suck balls less.

Follow up study

[oldspewey]

Missing from TFA:

Researchers had planned to perform a follow-up study and compile a much more comprehensive report of their findings, but were distracted by a tub of lego blocks with those cool electric motor modules.

APA's "Disorder"

[rift321]

I disagree with the APA's classification of broad-spectrum ADHD as a "disorder." I also disagree with the use of amphetamines as "treatment" for ADHD, and as you may have guessed, I'm speaking from experience.

I hope that early diagnosis of ADHD will not lead to the disclosure of the "disorder" to the children themselves, but rather an individualistic approach of treatment by different classroom experiences, school placement, a better diet, and giving them more time for physical activity in school, rather than sitting them at a desk for indoctrination for 7 hours a day.

Re:APA's "Disorder"

[drinkypoo]

Our school system was designed to produce obedient factory workers and soldiers. It was not designed to produce well-educated individuals. The USA has always had to attract the majority of its star scientific talent from other countries (and has always successfully done so, until recently.)

Re:APA's "Disorder"

[rift321]

Our school system was designed to produce obedient factory workers and soldiers.

Yes, I agree. Please see my reply to the "shitty teachers" thread. I'd love to see this discussion to become more solution-oriented than every other ADHD discussion that has ever taken place. Notice my use of "indoctrination."

Re:APA's "Disorder"

[drinkypoo]

Start by working to get rid of "no child left behind". (Yes, they intend to put them all in the military...) Work your way down. Personally though I think the answer is to form home schooling guilds where you trade kids around between rotating groups of three or four parents per class, and just stop using the public school system.

Re:APA's "Disorder"

[hoggoth]

> the answer is to form home schooling guilds where you trade kids around between rotating groups of three or four parents per class, and just stop using the public school system.

That's what we did. I started skeptical but the results have been fantastic.
My kids sit in front of workbooks no more than 2 hours a day. The rest of the day they play with 10-20 other home schooled kids. Their play includes digging up clams, playing soccer, playing violin, making models, painting, sculpting, doing experiments, building things, writing stories, performing their stories, reciting poetry, and sometimes just doing whatever kids want to do without guidance.

I am jealous because *I* had to spend 12 years sitting in a tiny uncomfortable wooden chair while bad teachers droned on and on without enthusiasm about topics they were forced to cover by the administration.
My "3rd grader" is doing 7th grade math and finds it fascinating. His group has performed plays in front of real audiences. He has played violin at Carnegie Hall (and has no idea how special that is).

What is he missing? He doesn't get teased for excelling at academics. He doesn't sit all day in one spot, come home and sit all evening in front of the TV. His friends don't have bad attitudes, don't curse at their parents (much), don't whine for the latest electronic gadget. There are no drugs in his "school". He has no idea who Hannah-Montana is.

I'm sure some replies will say he needs to deal with "real life", but what does school have to do with real life, unless you are preparing your kids for prison - the institution that most resembles school.

I let him wield a hammer, and get hurt sometimes. I listen to his opinion and it's often quite sound.

Re:APA's "Disorder"

[DNS-and-BIND]

Factory workers? In the USA? You do know that around 30 years ago, manufacturing packed up and left for overseas? And as for the jibe at the military, today's soldier is a trained professional just like a network engineer. The days of conscripted bullet stoppers ceased over 30 years ago with the repeal of the draft. You might want to try updating your corrosive hate data points, they work better that way.

Re:APA's "Disorder"

[drinkypoo]

I'm sure some replies will say he needs to deal with "real life", but what does school have to do with real life, unless you are preparing your kids for prison - the institution that most resembles school.

School prepares kids for a "real life" which imitates school. If that's what people want for their kids, then they're bastards, but that's "fine" (for some value of "fine" which says "I cannot stop you, but I think that it's child abuse.") But if what you want for your child is for them to grow up and live a life that does not resemble prison, as you say, then perhaps they need to be learning a different set of interpersonal skills than participating in the cycle of bullying that suppresses individuality and contributes only to the slave mentality.

Re:APA's "Disorder"

[hoggoth]

Thank you for supporting what I said. This is a controversial subject for a lot of people and I have literally put my childrens' future at stake taking an unconventional approach that I think will make them better, more competent, and happier people.

A friend of ours moved to a very expensive town nearby, got a bigger house, and switched their child from home schooling into one of the highest ranked public schools in the nation. In three months the child has become withdrawn and has lost much of her enthusiasm for learning.

Re:APA's "Disorder"

[drinkypoo]

Factory workers? In the USA? You do know that around 30 years ago, manufacturing packed up and left for overseas?

Completely irrelevant

And as for the jibe at the military, today's soldier is a trained professional just like a network engineer.

1) Snicker snort.

2) Also completely irrelevant, since what is taught in school is obedience and order. They want you to think precisely as they wish you to think in the military. You're not taught to think for yourself; you are taught what to think, and when to think it. The military works by making a plan, then sticking to the plan 100% until it has been revised... then stick with the new plan until IT is revised. They want you to stick with their plan.

You might want to try updating your corrosive hate data points, they work better that way.

You might want to try to stay relevant, your comment might have a point that way.

better diagnosis reduced the number of cases

[seroph]

There have been countless studies that indicate that ADHD is a neurological disorder the problem is when no physical tests are used in diagnosis people can more easily get labeled as having it when it is in fact a product of the education system.

On another note some cases of ADHD do not go away after adolescence and can impact work performance and social interactions. Also, the more popular illness for students currently is autism since it is not as easily identifiable as actual ADHD.

Re:better diagnosis reduced the number of cases

[rift321]

I have to ask how the APA is deciding that the broad spectrum of ADHD cases are classified as a quantifiable disorder. I do agree that the EEG diagnosis could be a huge advance, but could you punctuate your comment a bit better?

Re:better diagnosis reduced the number of cases

[seroph]

Sorry about the punctuation. The case studies that have been conducted in the last 10 years. Various brain imaging techniques were used have found that legitimate cases of ADHD are accompanied by distinctly different frontal lobe synapse firing patterns. Most studies focused on MRI scans for diagnosis.

getting through high school

[castironpigeon]

1. Sit in the last row.
2. Get out homework, TI calculator loaded with games, or a thin book.
3. Enjoy 50 minutes of quiet time before moving to a new room.
4. Realize that eventually you'll have to learn something to get by in the world and you'll be completely unprepared for it.

Re:getting through high school

[Darkness404]

Realize that eventually you'll have to learn something to get by in the world and you'll be completely unprepared for it.

...And how many high school classes really prepare you for the world and day to day living? Sure, history is nice to know and the basis is almost necessary in order to make political choices, but does that really affect your day to day living unless you are a historian? Math beyond basic geometry is useless to those who aren't in a math based career field (unless you are engineer, programmer, etc. you aren't going to need to know the sine or cosine of anything). Chemistry is useless unless you become a chemist, sure the basis is used for a lot of things, but you don't really have to understand the reactions. Biology beyond basic anatomy is borderline useless unless you go into a science based discipline. Etc. Most high school classes are worthless in retrospect for most students, yet we still keep making them take more classes than ever before. Its no wonder many students don't pay attention in class, they won't use the material being taught.

Re:getting through high school

[Anonymous Coward]

5. Profit!

Re:getting through high school

[hoggoth]

It's important to understand the basics of chemistry and biology so you know when you are being lied to by the media.

Re:getting through high school

[shmlco]

"Sure, history is nice to know and the basis is almost necessary in order to make political choices, but does that really affect your day to day living unless you are a historian?"

Tell that to all of the parents who lost their kids in Afghanistan and Iraq. Or the kids who lost parents, for that matter. The parallels in the lead up between them and between many previous U.S. wars are too numerous to mention.

Yeah, you're right. Being killed, having essential freedoms stripped away, and more, all have little to do with your "day to day living." Until, of course, you wake up and it does.

Idiots.

Re:getting through high school

[Polarina]

I am diagnosed with ADHD and I don't completely agree with your points.

1. Sit in the last row.

I hate sitting in the last row, or any row that isn't the first. I cannot see the chalkboard due to my poor vision and hearing the instructor is also difficult due to the interference from other students. Besides, not all high schools have rows in classrooms, let alone classrooms.

2. Get out homework, TI calculator loaded with games, or a thin book.

Homework is definitely boring. However, failing a course simply for not having turned in enough assignments doesn't benefit anyone. Games or sketchbooks do not help in that matter, especially if one has issues with game addiction like a friend of mine with that 24/7 addiction to Tetris.

3. Enjoy 50 minutes of quiet time before moving to a new room.

You simply cannot imagine how utterly boring that is. Quietness for over a constant period of 10 minutes drives me nuts, hence my loud computer fan and the open windows exposed to traffic and storms. Quiet or not, it's boring anyway.

4. Realize that eventually you'll have to learn something to get by in the world and you'll be completely unprepared for it.

I cannot argue about that. Slashdot is the perfect method to realize just that.

Re:getting through high school

[dkleinsc]

Sure, history is nice to know and the basis is almost necessary in order to make political choices, but does that really affect your day to day living unless you are a historian?

I was chatting with a historian just Sunday about this very question, and came up with an excellent answer: Proper study of history is the study of sources. That is, when you have two competing descriptions of the same events, who do you believe? Or what do you do when a document is credible except for a couple of numbers being way off? How do you determine which sources are independent from each other, and which depend on the same primary report? In other words, studying history (the right way, not the boring memorize-dates way) hones your extremely important BS detection skills.

Re:getting through high school

[Anonymous Coward]

If you've got poor vision why not, I dunno, wear glasses? Or contacts, but personally contacts seem like a hassle.

Also what that guy was saying, I'd assume, is that he's doing his homework in class. Because frankly, a lot of stuff they teach is straight out of the textbook so you can just learn it all on your own time.

His 50 minutes of quiet time isn't sitting in a corner, it's doing quiet work. Doing homework, reading, etc just like he mentioned in point 2.

As for point 4, eh. It depends on your social skills honestly. Good references are ace, but if you can talk the talk, you can eventually learn to walk the walk as you go along. But if you can walk the walk but can't talk the talk, no one's gonna even give you a chance unless you can run the run.

Re:getting through high school

[Anonymous Coward]

Most classes aren't about the trivia that you cover. They are usually about teaching your brain to sort, prioritize and store information.

There are some exception that are training you specific things you should comprehend. for instance, the ones you mentioned:

History is about learning how events affect the world, not about the date of the Battle of Waterloo. Past performance is a strong indicator of future returns.

Math isn't about sine and cosine, it's about re-programming how your mind approaches problems. The solving process of breaking big things down into discrete, solvable steps is important every day. You'll understand when you see your kids trying to do their math homework, this is why there is so much repetition. Yes some students get it and don't need the drills to make it rote, but most do and I would argue this is the most valuable and under-taught subject/skill in American schools.

Chemistry is about cause and effect and understanding complex interactions (it also applies when cooking dinner)

Biology is again about complex systems and, if you pay attention, you might learn a thing or two about how your body works so you can keep it alive a bit longer.

ADHD

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, yes. Attention-Deficit High-Definition.

Wait, what?

disorder?

[Lord Ender]

Humans did not evolve to sit at a desk, day after day, for most of their lives. Children being active and energetic is natural and healthy; it is not a disorder.

Re:disorder?

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you get a kid with ADHD to sit still long enough to complete one of these EEG scans?

we should welcome this objectivity!

[panthroman]

Many people here are (correctly) deriding ADHD as being an ill-defined "disorder" vaguely attributed to recalcitrant students. That seems to be exactly the issue the EEG scans are trying to address.

From TFA: "...hopes will help doctors diagnose attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) more objectively..."

To use a polemical and simple example, imagine a time before trisomy 21 (aka Down's Syndrome) was understood. Then instead of understanding a cause (trisomy 21), we had to rely on symptoms (mental retardation). You can't take a symptom and pretend it's a cause. Mental retardation is ill-defined and has many potential causes, and lumping all "mentally retarded" people together is disingenuous. If mental retardation were treated like ADHD is today, then anyone who did poorly in school would be labeled mentally retarded and given a prescription, some pills, a stigma, and a glass ceiling.

We should welcome even small steps towards objectivity and causation for ill-defined diagnoses like ADHD.

Re:we should welcome this objectivity!

[rift321]

To expand on your idea, could people suggest a better educational pathway for people with objectively-identified ADHD patterns?

Also, I'd like to know how much the statistical analysis discerns between different degrees and types of ADHD symptoms.

Re:we should welcome this objectivity!

[k.a.f.]

Many people here are (correctly) deriding ADHD as being an ill-defined "disorder" vaguely attributed to recalcitrant students. That seems to be exactly the issue the EEG scans are trying to address.

From TFA: "...hopes will help doctors diagnose attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) more objectively..."

Maybe I'm dense, but how can it become an objective diagnostic, when apparently there is a lack of existing objective measures? What do you calibrate it against? Sure, you can find recurring patterns and decide to call those 'indicators', but who decides which of those cases are positives and which are false positives?

jesus

[Anonymous Coward]

do i really have to read bullshit comments like "Darkness404" here on slashdot?

by reading here i always got the feeling ppl are more openminded.

im a 27 year old adult and finally got last year ADHD diagnosed. my life was hell before that, altho able of many many things failing at all of them. falling behind everyones and mine expectations. fail fail fail fail.

do you people really believe ADHD only happens in schools/class ? it affects our social life, work , etc, basically everything.
So i got this super high IQ, but because of my ADHD (till now) i never had any work better than a bullshit clerk job, forced to be surrounded by stupidity every day and even failing at those retarded jobs. thats a very nice feeling, and doesnt hurt at all, really. when i hear parents talk that they try to "heal" their kids without ritalin (or whatever) i would love to take them their kids away, they have no fucking clue what they are ruining.

so fuck you people who think ADHD is just a symptom of the education system or just a hype, or whatever. really. educate yourself, try to talk to people who suffer.

you cant imagine how much more i am accomplising now that im on ritalin.

(posting as coward because of no account)

Re:jesus

[spookthesunset]

Pretty much the same boat as you. Was diagnosed about five years ago at the age of 26. Couldn't focus on starting my own company no matter how damn hard I tried. Never could get started.

Dont screw with this stuff folks, living untreated is a great way to waste your potential.

Re:jesus

[Anonymous Coward]

My story is very similar and I can't decide if the denials of ADHD being a real disorder or the excessive focus on kids/schooling is more irritating. Adults with ADHD have it far worse than a child ever will. Yet all you ever hear about is schools/teachers and how ADHD medications are turning kids into robots/zombies.

ADHD is not about school or teachers or teachers unions or parenting or sugar. Talking about any of these things is not constructive to understanding ADHD or finding better treatments. I was one of those kids with ADHD. But guess what? I'm an adult now and the consequences are far more real. There's a difference between getting grounded for bad grades and losing your job because you can't focus on a consistent basis no matter how hard you try.

Even though I am still young there's a mountain of things I regret because I did not get treated sooner. I'm still trying to cope with it. But most of all I am bitter and resent the fact that my own mother refused to do something about it when I was younger because she could not accept that ADHD is real and "didn't wan't me to be medicated". That is why these ignorant denials are so infuriating. People are suffering just as the parent poster and I did for over twenty years.
 

It's astounding what I've read in these comments. The chattering and continual perpetuation of myths and general idiocy by these closet scientologists and pseudo-neuroscientists is harming people.
 

Posting as Anonymous due to no account. Creating one requires too much focus.

Old tech

[Ravenscall]

I really don't see this as breaking news, I had a doctor use an EEG in the timeframe of 1988-1990 to diagnose me with ADD.

When I was a kid

[elrous0]

We used to call ADHD kids "Kids with parents too lazy to control them."

Re:When I was a kid

[sexconker]

It's all part of the pussification and nanny-statification of America. Leveling the playing field only stifles the desires of those who are better and sets up the weaker individuals for huge disappointment later on in life (or it would if the rest of us didn't have to keep propping them up).

Lame? Crippled? Handicapped? Handicapable? Disabled?
DIFFERENTLY ABLED.

Stupid? Moron? Idiot? Simpleton? Retard? Slow? Dunce? Challenged? Developmentally Disabled?
SPECIAL NEEDS.

Problem child? Acting up? Bad parenting? Acting Out? Attention Seeking Behavior?
ADD/ADHD.

Bastard? Child of a broken home? Single mother?
SINGLE MOTHER BY CHOICE.

F? Red ink? Sad face?
EVERYONE GETS A GOLD STAR FOR TRYING.

Math? Science? Girls not testing as well as boys?
TALK IN GROUPS ABOUT HOW MATH MAKES YOU FEEL.

Reading? Spelling? Grammar? Kids don't speak English?
LANGUAGE IS ALWAYS EVOLVING, WHY TEACH IT?

Hard? Difficult? Unfair?
CULTURE AND GENDER BIAS IN TESTING.

Re:When I was a kid

[SpeZek]

From your positioning of ADD/ADHD under "Problem Child" and "Acting Up", rather than a header to "Special Needs", it's very clear you don't understand it nor the challenges it presents for legitimate sufferers.
Like it or not, there are legitimate reasons for giving special treatment to some people. We're not all born equal, certainly nobody better, but certainly many worse off.

Re:When I was a kid

[sexconker]

"Like it or not, there are legitimate reasons for giving special treatment to some people."

Nope. All people should be treated (by the government, my taxes, etc.) equally. (Having a separate class for the problem/retarded kids is fine by me, as it benefits all involved.)

"We're not all born equal"
Correct, we are not.

"certainly nobody better, but certainly many worse off."
Incorrect, and a logical fallacy. Some people ARE simply better than others. Deal with it.

As for not understanding it, I understand it just fine. Kid acts like a kid, isn't parented properly, and then gets labeled and drugged up. The vast majority of ADD/ADHD cases are bullshit misdiagnosis that parents buy into because they want something to blame other than themselves.

There ARE cases where it's a real problem, but to create a label of ADD/ADHD and pump kids full of drugs that do more harm than good is a farce and a tragedy. People used to do it the hard way, and guess what, it worked. Kids were taught discipline and self control and parents were held responsible.

Re:When I was a kid

[SpeZek]

We're all born human, is what I more or less meant. The problem is that we aren't all born with the same default settings; some of us might have bad drivers and loose connections. They're still equally human, just not on the same platform. It's poetic speech, not a fallacy.

Re:When I was a kid

[sexconker]

"We're not all born equal, certainly nobody better, but certainly many worse off."

Yeah...

Re:When I was a kid

[spookthesunset]

People used to do it the hard way, and guess what, it worked. Kids were taught discipline and self control and parents were held responsible.

People used to live without glasses too. Should people who can't see right suck it up and go without?

Your argument is exactly the same. ADHD affects me just as much as somebody who has horrid vision.

Re:When I was a kid

[sexconker]

You can't focus (ha) and be extra disciplined and mitigate bad vision.
You can with ADHD. You can with a host of other problems society has seen on the rise lately.

If we lived by your mantra, fat people would all be excused for having genetic predispositions, violent criminals would treated with kid gloves because they claim hormonal imbalances, and drunk drivers would be coddled because they have an addiction.

Shit's hard for you. Sorry. But that's the way it is.
To pass drugs out like candy and give everyone an excuse is bullshit, especially when most people diagnosed with ADD/ADHD don't even fucking have it.

Re:When I was a kid

[Ihlosi]

You can't focus (ha) and be extra disciplined and mitigate bad vision.

Huh? There are enough people out there claiming that you can. Just use google.

You can with ADHD.

No. If you can "snap out of it" in a controlled fashion, then you probably don't have ADHD. Or a only very mild case.

Re:When I was a kid

[sexconker]

You claim you can fix bad vision with focus, and say you can't do the same for ADHD?

Sir, can I go home? Damn mine took my leg off.

NO SOLDIER, just stick with and focus hard.

But Johnny got to go home and he just forgot to make his bed and lace his boots!

No amount of training or determination will help that poor boy. He's a HERO, you hear?!

Obligatory South Park Reference

[sudotron]

Okay, so kids, to see if you have attention deficit disorder, I'm going to start by reading you "The Great Gatsby", by F. Scott Fitzgerald...

(Several Hours Later)
--So we beat on, boats against the current, bourne back ceaselessly into the past.

So children, who can tell me the kind of car that Gatsby drove in chapter three? Anybody? My god, these kids all have ADD!

Now we have another HD format?

[AnalPerfume]

WTF? I thought BluRay won, and was welcomed with a luke warm "meh" from consumers. Is this the new HD format to replace it?

Re:Now we have another HD format?

[Ravenscall]

Yes, it is made from "special" children.

Lets start a new anti-health meme

[Alzheimers]

I blame the Flu Vaccination.

I'm sure someone can run numbers to compare the trends of flu vaccinations and the number of ADHD diagnoses made every year. I bet someone could even win some prestigious awards for doing so.

It would be total fabrication, of course. But when has that ever stopped activists before?

Really?

[sexconker]

A map of the electrical activity of a brain can be used to identify an electrical problem in the brain?

Not surprising at all. Headline fails.
(The method used to interpret the scans and identify ADHD IS newsworthy. The fact that they're using EEGs is totally not headline material.)

Re:Really?

[cheros]

Umm, qEEG as used in neurofeedback has been able to identify ADHD for years now.

I think the news is that someone may have found a method that doesn't involve half an hour doing tests (in itself hard for ADHD people) while wearing a headcap with electrodes and hair full of contact gel..

Re:Really?

[sexconker]

Exactly my point.
The headline states that a company is claiming eeg scans can help identify ADHD.
That's not news.

Excercise...

[ghostis]

In my experience, making sure kids get enough daily exercise really helps with ADHD symptoms in the classroom.

Re:Excercise...

[rift321]

Thank god someone else realized that. Please tell me you're a teacher.

Re:Excercise...

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish it were that easy. Unfortunately, ADHD is all too often used as a label for "hyper" kids. In those cases, yes, adequate physical exercise / activity helps tremendously with "symptoms" in the classroom. It's been described somewhat in earlier posts as well, but ADHD realy relates to the inability to associate actions and thoughts. ADHD children will frequently do something and have absolutely no idea why they did it because the thoughts and the actions don't really mix. The "H" in ADHD applies to children with the additional complication of being very "figity". It doesn't necessarily mean they are "hyper" or that they have a lot of pent-up engergy. They just have very little control over the small physical things (can't stay in their chair, babbling all the time, etc.) Those symptoms by themselves are probably what is most commonly mistaken for just needing to work out the jitters. But try raising a child who really truly does have ADHD and you'll quickly learn to tell the difference. What you may find interesting is that the number of ADHD diagnoses sky-rocketed immediately after the federal board of education added ADHD to the list of disorders that qualify for special financial assistance. That decision, not surprisingly, was direct result of significant lobbying by the companies that make the common ADHD medications.

So yes, there is a large class of people incorrectly diagnosed with ADHD. And yes, I agree that things are exacerbated by the structure of our education system. However, there is also a very real disorder that is perhaps not very well named but is no less impactful to children (and adult) who suffer from it.

And just to bring this full circle, now that my daughter is being treated for it, she actually gets much more exercise as a result, because she is better able to participate with other children and focus long enough for physical activity to actually be enjoyable and meaningful to her.

I'd prefer they spend less time

[mandark1967]

scanning to find who has ADHD and ADD and more time finding out which kids will end up being a serial killer who eats people.

Of all the things in the world that parents teach their kids, like how to go to the bathroom instead of shitting themselves, how to tie your shoes, learn right from wrong*, etc. parents simply aren't taking the extra 3 seconds to sit their kid down and tell them, "Don't eat people."

A brain scan that can identify these kids would be far better than telling who has ADD/ADHD.

*(at least some teach this)

ADHD is REAL

[Anonymous Coward]

I know, I have it. I've been on ritalin for over 20 years... I take the same small dose now that I took in 2nd grade.

ADD can be tested for... they have standardized tests and I've seen my results from childhood compared to non ADD kids and it's completely obvious. Granted my doctor has often said I'm a "textbook case". Ritalin is a safe effective way of treating kids that have had proper testing/diagnoses... in fact ritalin is very old and very widely tested and is very, very safe. The problem is that lazy people misdiagnose kids with ADD all the time because they have behavior problems or whatever.. without getting proper testing.. that is a problem and I'm against all the un-necessary medicating of our youth.

In summary, proper diagnosis and treatment changed my life. I became a straight-A student almost overnight after starting medication... and I've never needed an increased dose (another sign that I actually need it... kids without ADD will need more and more drugs)

My wife didn't believe ADD was real until she met me.

There is no such thing as ADHD.

[IGnatius T Foobar]

Seriously. Kids are all different. People are all different. ADHD roughly translates to "Teacher doesn't understand this kid and can't get through to him/her so we're going to use this made-up diagnosis to put him/her in a box and then pump him/her full of drugs to make the problem appear to have gone away."

Administering neurotoxins to healthy children is child abuse and should be treated as such.

The funny thing is, so many people say "oh yes, you're right, 99% of ADHD diagnoses are really just misunderstood children" but then their "ADHD" child always seems to be part of that last 1 percent. Nope, sorry, doesn't work that way, no exceptions. If you label a child "ADHD" you are an incompetent parent or teacher. Period.

Re:There is no such thing as ADHD.

[Phasma Felis]

Seriously. Kids are all different. People are all different. ADHD roughly translates to "Teacher doesn't understand this kid and can't get through to him/her so we're going to use this made-up diagnosis to put him/her in a box and then pump him/her full of drugs to make the problem appear to have gone away." Administering neurotoxins to healthy children is child abuse and should be treated as such. The funny thing is, so many people say "oh yes, you're right, 99% of ADHD diagnoses are really just misunderstood children" but then their "ADHD" child always seems to be part of that last 1 percent. Nope, sorry, doesn't work that way, no exceptions. If you label a child "ADHD" you are an incompetent parent or teacher. Period.

You have no idea what you're talking about. You also don't know what "neurotoxin" means.

Please research the issue and report back to the class.

Re:There is no such thing as ADHD.

[cheros]

Sadly, I have to disagree from simple practical experience. However, where I would agree with you is the enthusiastic administration of drugs, especially because they don't SOLVE the issue, they just convict the child to being a lifelong provider of profit.

For what it's worth, my son (you could call him a "light" case) was helped by neurofeedback. Not for everyone, sure, but in his case it worked. Ritalin is really about the last thing I'd do to him, so I'm immensely grateful it worked. ADHD is - as far as we learned (I'm no expert) - a weakness in the ability of the brain to switch regions on and off according to need. However, it's no snake oil - you can actually SEE the issue when you look at brain maps (quanititive EEG or qEEG). Rather horrible to see it confirmed, but nice that it IS confirmed so you can try to address it.

Neurofeedback is a bit like a gym and education for the switching mechanism, and for the region that doesn't work too well. It learns to switch correctly (or at least, the "mean" as sampled from many others) and the weakened region gets some exercise, like a muscle. Neurofeedback is cool in that it very quickly shows if it's working or not (no year long therapy), after which more of the same "embeds" it.

The problem with Ritalin et al is that you end up with an overall "on" or "off" state, which means if you need to switch from "doing" to "sitting in the car for an hour" you need to plan this and change medication. If you can avoid that in any way, shape or form, please do. It's really only a last ditch measure.

All IMHO, of course. I can't speak for others, only what I learned myself with my son.

Try to read up on the condition, but do it with a critical eye. I'm the first to agree that a Godawful amount of rubbish has been written about it, but it does exist. And brutally ignorant prescribing of drugs exists too.

But ADHD is no myth. On behalf of many parents with children, I wish to God it was.

Re:There is no such thing as ADHD.

[pnuema]

Fuck you, asshole. My two year old is capable of things my 11 year old is not. My wife and I have discussed her quitting her job so our son can get the help he needs, because adult level doses of amphetamines aren't cutting it. My son scores in the 80th percentile in reading comprehension, and in the 3rd percentile in auditory memory. For every 30 minutes his classmates spend on homework, he spends 2 hours - that's with an adult sitting right next to him refocusing him every 30 seconds. In fifth grade.

I'm an abuser? Come over here, cocksucker, and let me take the frustrations I've felt over the last 8 years and pound your goddamned face in.

Re:There is no such thing as ADHD.

[atraintocry]

I'm an adult. I have ADD. For years and years I denied it because I thought people like you knew what the fuck they were talking about. I'm almost 30 now and I have nothing to show for it, because instead of treating something I just berated myself for being "lazy."

I'm sick of you armchair quarterbacks. Stick to what you know, don't pontificate about what you don't.

Re:There is no such thing as ADHD.

[atraintocry]

I'm sorry to hear about your son. One day he will be old enough to realize everything. What he has, what the signs of his focus drifting look like, what he can do to compensate for it, and how you did everything you could to help him when he wasn't old enough to help himself. Don't let these guys get to you.

Re:There is no such thing as ADHD.

[Buelldozer]

It's unfortunate that you never met a real ADD/ADHD case. I was one as a child and still am one today as an adult. As a child without the drugs I couldn't possibly have functioned. As an adult I have learned coping mechanisms, but it isn't perfect.

For instance I still have days where I have extreme difficulty concentrating on things even if they interest me. Prolonged concentration can be very difficult for me, making it hard to learn complex things.

On the plus side I can be extremely creative and when having an "energy storm" can outwork any three people you care to name with levels of speed, precision, and forethought that most people have never seen and can't comprehend.

On the bad days I can be distracted while tying my shoes. The worst though, for me, is that I simply cannot always get my brain in gear before my mouth. I have "tennis shoe tongue" from all the sneakers that have been jammed in there.

So mock ADD/ADHD if you want, but you should know that you look like an ignorant asshole to those of us who live with the condition.

Re:There is no such thing as ADHD.

[tristanreid]

Tom Cruise? Is that you?

-t.

Re:There is no such thing as ADHD.

[IGnatius T Foobar]

I'm sorry to hear that you have failed as a parent and have bought into the lies Big Pharma has fed to you through their pawns who are your son's teachers.

Re:There is no such thing as ADHD.

[spookthesunset]

I think Tom Cruise and his scientologist buddies have about a few dozen or so accounts.

Re:There is no such thing as ADHD.

[IGnatius T Foobar]

Nope, this isn't armchair quarterbacking. I have a child who was misdiagnosed with ADHD (hint: if it's ADHD, it's misdiagnosed, because ADHD doesn't exist). They wanted to pump him full of drugs so they could pretend they "fixed" him. We wrote up the teacher, fired the pediatrician, and got another opinion. We hooked up with a doctor who took the time to get to know him and understand him, and guess what? He just had plain ordinary anxiety issues. When the anxiety was addressed, the symptoms they were calling "ADHD" went away.

And no, this wasn't "oh, I'm glad it worked for you, but my child isn't like that..." Sorry, it doesn't work that way. If you zombified your child with Ritalin or other amphetamines, you took the irresponsible easy way out. Shame on you.

Re:There is no such thing as ADHD.

[IGnatius T Foobar]

Yes, you are an abuser, and based on the aggressive tone you are taking with me, I suspect you may be abusive on more than one level. The inconvenient, unfortunate truth is that you took the easy way out by zombifying your child with drugs instead of trying to find the root cause of whatever "attention" issue they told you he was having. I feel sorry for him, and I hope someday more parents, teachers, and pediatricians will take the time to understand their children instead of believing what Big Pharma wants them to believe.

Re:There is no such thing as ADHD.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a fascinating approach. I hope you're writing this up as a journal publication. I mean,
to think that all these neuroscientists have been
wrong for 70 years with their twin studies and dopamine level measurements and tomography. Quite embarrassing actually, if you think about it.

Re:There is no such thing as ADHD.

[pnuema]

Thanks man, I appreciate it. It's people like you that keep me getting out of bed every day.

Re:There is no such thing as ADHD.

[Have Brain Will Rent]

You know you really don't have a clue. Go talk to a few adults diagnosed with ADHD and ask them if it is imaginary.

Re:There is no such thing as ADHD.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, you really are an asshole. Someone makes a post skeptical of ADHD and medications, and you're ready to respond by "pounding [his] goddamned face in" ?? Dude, you seriously need to relax.

Interrupting activity to ride bikes != ADHD

[tepples]

I was going to write a well thought out post about how I was also diagnosed with ADHD, but then I went outside to ride bikes instead.

Let me guess: you realized that it was getting late, and you had to jump on your bike to get to the office.

Again? What is the new take this time?

[neurophys]

One of the biggest and best attempts to diagnose psychiatry by EEG-measures was R. John in the 1980-1990. His methods failed in practical use.

There are no publications sited by Pubmed on this, but EImindAs website and the linked article gives an impression of this being the same again. Don't hold your breath.

PGL

Re:Reverse the negative

[shmlco]

Perhaps, like DNA tests, we can use this information to diagnose people who are NOT matches, do not have ADHD, and as such shouldn't be drugged or "treated" for a disease they do not have...

Methylcobalamin B12 treatments for ADHD

[Anonymous Coward]

You guys should see this then:
http://www.recoveryvideos.com/autism/methylcobalamin-vitamin-b12.html

In particular:
http://www.recoveryvideos.com/video/eegdraft.wmv

Methyl B12 injections/nasal spray have been very successful as part of biomedical treatments for autism (as part of the Defeat Autism Now (D.A.N.) protocol) and it seems to have a positive impact on other
neurological sicknesses as well.

on homeschooling

[eleuthero]

Um... I hate to burst your bubble, but the vast majority of home schooled students are taught so because their parents don't want them picking up "incorrect ideas" such as "evolution," "all races are equal," and more. It's not just religious whackjobs, it's whackjobs period who do the majority of homeschooling, nowadays. The best way to indoctrinate your kid is to make sure you're the one feeding them all the information.

While this certainly may be true, I and several others I have met spent time "homeschooling" because there weren't any private schools worth beans in the area and the public schools were an order of magnitude worse. I started my tenth grade year because the local school felt that moving was an unexcused absence (keeping in mind that I was moving across the state, not down the block, and they had records from the previous school to prove this). The old school provided resources and I went back to public school ahead of the curve in 12th grade after another move. I graduated 9th out of 450ish after taking the various tests. Home schooling doesn't need to mean that you are of a fringe ideology, it is simply one of the possible reasons for homeschooling. Another, much less negative possibility: Students who have high internal motivation do not need public school and can even find it to be a hindrance. As for the claim that the majority of homeschoolers are racists--where did this come from? Homeschooling is used by people across all demographics - and for some statistics (first google link, so I'm not sure how much it's worth): Home School Legal Defense Association.

Re:on homeschooling

[twidarkling]

While this certainly may be true, I and several others I have met spent time "homeschooling" because there weren't any private schools worth beans in the area and the public schools were an order of magnitude worse.

I recognize that home schooling can be of value, and didn't discount that, as I used "vast majority," and with the way school systems in North America in general are swinging, there's an increase in legitimate uses of homeschooling. However, that doesn't change the fact that the historical majority, as well as a very large number of current cases of homeschooling are to inculcate students to the parents' beliefs, so accusations of public schools indoctrinating students are laughable at best, dangerously misleading at worst. After all, if a student learns something at school, and then goes home, and a parent tells them different, the child's been given two separate viewpoints to consider. With homeschooling, those who homeschool for similar reasons tend to congregate, thus all espousing the same views, which presents a homogenous viewpoint for the child, and doesn't give the opportunity for objective analysis, since "everyone" believes it.

As for the claim that the majority of homeschoolers are racists--where did this come from?

Not to be rude, but, apparently, it came from your ass. I never said homeschoolers were racist. I pointed out two ideologies that a parent might wish to pass on to a child which would be contra-induced by public schooling. Evolution - generally a *religous* point of contention, and racism, an *asshole* point of contention. And I then went on to say it's "whackjobs period" who use homeschooling in that fashion. Any fringe view can be passed on to a child if the parent's the only one presenting information, thus making homeschooling the refuge of people with extreme viewpoints which don't stand up to logical scrutiny. To make an analogy, however, to soothe any ruffled feathers, I will say that "just because pirates use the internet doesn't mean all the people who use the internet are pirates."

AKA: Just because whackjobs homeschool doesn't make everyone who homeschools a whackjob.

You'll notice a careful absence of absolutes in my two posts? Simply "majorities." My proof for majorities? Take a good look in homeschooling bookshops. Many absolutely cater to specific points of view.

Re:on homeschooling

[COMON$]

there is also a large absence of any references or fact to any part of your post. i was just reading down this thread and was offended by your original post which I also interpreted as you saying that home schools are largely made up of bigots "the vast majority of home schooled students are taught so because their parents don't want them picking up "incorrect ideas" such as "evolution," "all races are equal," and more"

Parent at least cited one example to refute, you just cite opinion and your own bigotry when you state "whackjobs period who do the majority of homeschooling, which you conveniently left out. Wonderful thing about /. you cant edit your own idiot statements, they are there for all to see forever, giving asswipes like myself reason to point and laugh at you.

ADHD *is* real

[Anonymous Coward]

While I agree that ADHD is misdiagnosed at incredible rates, it is definitely a real disorder. My wife has a good friend who has it as an adult. She's just full on, high energy all the time; but she can't focus. We visited their family a few years ago, and their study was half painted, not in a nice neat fashion, but like someone started painting it, and then just put the brush down and never got back to it. When we asked her husband about it, he said, "Yeah, she started that months ago."

This is just one particular example, but this is the way she lived her whole life. She'd start things, but finishing them was a problem, and it wasn't from getting tired out, because she was never tired out. She just kept moving from thing to thing. I suppose once she would have been called 'flighty' or something like that, but clearly this isn't normal behavior. Her daughter has been diagnosed as well, and having observed her and knowing her mother, I think it is a good diagnosis. There are a lot of bad ones, but don't assume that ADHD doesn't exist just because a lot of the cases that get diagnosed as it aren't really it.

If a test can show differences in brain activity, that's a good thing because hopefully it can cut down on the number of false positives.

Re:ADHD *is* real

[flyneye]

Well what about the people with those same symptoms who don't have ADHD?
Still no proof that your Santa Clause exists.
ADHD exists, it's just that it exists in theory to be pulled out whenever a pharmaceutical company has need of increased revenues.

          Jill: hey, these smart pills taste like rabbit droppings! Dr.Phil: they must work, you're getting smarter already!

Re:ADHD *is* real

[Ihlosi]

Well what about the people with those same symptoms who don't have ADHD?

ADHD and various other conditions (e.g. certain forms of autism, oppositional-defiant disorder, bipolar disorder, hearing problems, brain tumors) have symptoms in common, so those people should be evaluated for those conditions (in fact, ADHD is diagnosed only after these conditions have been excluded - if it turns out that someone was diagnosed with ADHD but did in fact have not have ADHD, it's a sign that the doctor overlooked something. If there's a concentration of such cases for certain doctors, maybe it's time to look at their licenses again. Doctors aren't going to like that, really.)

ADHD exists, it's just that it exists in theory to be pulled out whenever a pharmaceutical company has need of increased revenues.

Durr. Really. ADHD is treated with fscking cheap generic stuff. There's no big money to be made with making it, especially not for big pharma, since the patents on it have expired fscking decades ago, if they ever existed. You might as well say that headaches are a a theory that's pulled out whenever a pharmaceutical company needs to sell more aspirin, it's just as silly.

Let's redefine "normal" instead

[Locke2005]

The amazing thing about these ADHD kids is that they can spend hours at a time sitting intently focused on a difficult video game. People will focus on and retain things that they perceive as important to their daily life. Couldn't ADHD also be cured by making the instruction more relevant?

All children are not created equal

[Thaelon]

All children are not created equal, but should be given an equal opportunity.

Offer them interesting classes with engaging teachers teaching things that will be useful in their adult life, or useful in preparing them for their adult life. Fire any teacher that hands out busy work, or large volumes of rote memorization work.

Those that pay attention and learn will continue to do so. To those that prefer to goof off and fall behind the curve, hand them a shovel or burger king hat. At least that way both will be prepared for their adult life in ways that are appropriate to them as an individual. If parents complain, tell the parents to encourage their children not to be dumb asses.

Above all, any system staffed by humans should attempt to account for being staffed and run at least partially by incompetent schmucks.

Re:All children are not created equal

[PPH]

Won't work. If they offer 'interesting' classes to the likes of you or I, it means separating us out of the herd and identifying us as 'special' or (worse yet) 'gifted'. That leaves Bubba, the star quarterback, behind in the 'average' class. Bubba's mommy and daddy come down and scream at the administration for daring to identify their precious kid as average. They threaten to pull him out of school and send him elsewhere, which will screw up the football program. Other parents scream. Administration backs down and closes the special programs, putting us all in the same class. Teachers don't have time enough to manage a few students already doing college level calculus while they have to keep drilling Bubba on his times tables.

I can't belive I have to step in here to say this

[Hojima]

Has anyone here not even heard of EEG treatment? I can't believe this article is even on Slashdot. just go to Wikipedia and you'll see this is OLD news. Not only can you detect ADHD with EEG, but you can treat it. Hell, it can even be used to treat migraines, PTSD, and sleep disorders. The applications are almost endless. A quick summary of how it works for the uninformed: there are 4 main oscillations within the neocortex. There is a statistical average for the occurrence of each one, hence a deviation from these averages can correlate to a disorder. By actively trying to shift those frequencies, disorders can become undone. Yes there are some disorders it can't treat, but the applications are even being expanded into enhancing the mind, and enhancing reflexes and mind-body interactions (on google, look up: neurofeedback peak performance).

You're Right!

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't take this desk anymore, and I'm quitting RIGHT NOW

talked much with *adults* w/ AD(H)D? Thought not.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm an adult with AD(no H)D.

It would've been great if I'd been eating sugar or food coloring (had a healthy diet), or not exercising (always did), or watching too much TV (didn't as a kid, didn't have time to as an adult because I was always behind). It would've been great if my teachers were boring, or if my college classes were terrible, or my first jobs out of college were drone-work.

But they weren't, because ADHD is real. ADHD is what's left after all the denial and blame of external factors (which 99% of your peers can handle just fine, funny that) are removed. ADHD isn't some side-effect of soul-sucking corporate life: it's what might get you fired from the most energizing and exciting job you've found because you can't concentrate no matter how hard you try.

That's the problem with ADD: you can't concentrate on things you love, even when you're doing everything right. I'd be eating good foods (straight from the farmer's market) and exercising and taking tai chi and have half the concentration of people who lived off of ramen and jelly beans.

If you're an adult who might have ADD (or parents of a child with it), I encourage you to talk with adults who have ADD and are dealing with it effectively. Yes, I dislike having to take ritalin, but uncontrolled ADD was far, far worse.

The anti-meds (often scientology) crowd talks about kids being zombies on ritalin. You know what makes a person a zombie? Not having a life because it takes you 3-4 hours to do what fellow students can do in an hour. Putting in 12 hour days to get 8 hours worth of work done. Not being able to sleep for fear of when the axe is going to fall because you're permanently behind on everything.

Once I started on ritalin, I found what it was like to get a day's work done in a day, to have time to jump on new projects because I could accurately predict I had the time to work on them, to be able to contribute to meetings--to brainstorm not brainfog--rather than feel permanently 10 minutes behind.

Once I started on ritalin, I actually knew what it felt like to concentrate-- to look at a project and quickly set up planning to get it done efficiently (rather than start off the afternoon looking for a stamp and end the afternoon repainting the table, sans stamp, because everything was distracting and every project has "Priority 1"). Heck, if I forget my ritalin I can get by--not my best but much better than my pre-ritalin days--because I know what concentration and focus is.

Some ADD kids can get by in high-school or even community college without medications because their anti-meds parents follow them around to keep discipline, or because they're really smart and high-school never asks that much of you. But what happens when you're at college and everyone else is just as smart, and doesn't have (untreated) ADD? What happens when you've got a dream-job and your parents can't be whispering encouragement every half hour?

At some point everything external is what it should be, and you're still not able to focus. And it'll be time to deal with the reality of ADD. It's a brain thing, and modern medicine can help. Talk to your doctor, but before that talk to people who've been through this.

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[Missing_dc]

The ramones knew about this ages ago...

To quote:

I was feeling sick I was loosing my mind I heard about these treatments
From a good friend of mine he was always happy smile on his face
He said he had a great time at the place

Gimme Gimme Shock Treatment!!
I wanna, wanna Shock Treatment!

ADHD = intelligent and creative but BORED

[ilovegeorgebush]

I'm so god damn sick of this 'condition'.

I paid so much attention to my IT classes, even when a shit teacher was running it.

I paid attention in my English class when my slightly-saucy but interesting female teacher ran the class.

I paid attention when my inspiring South African English teacher ran the class.

I never paid attention when I was forced to do 'Social studies' that was run by uninspiring and deadbeat middle-aged has-beens.

I never paid attention when my 60-something inpatient French teacher picked on my refusal to participate because she couldn't teach.

Stop with this bullshit labeling and for Christ's sake invest in education that is relevant, meaningful, exciting and a little bit risky.

After diagnosis I was put on Ritalin for years and it did nothing but harm.

Re:ADHD = intelligent and creative but BORED

[cheros]

You're comparing apples and rotten tomatoes.

Someone with ADHD can in some cases not even take advantage of the few excellent teachers that are around. It's not because they don't WANT to, it's because they really can't. I didn't make that clear in a previous post - as a parent you don't want to hear your child needs a label. You WANT it to be boredom, or "just a phase", and I have a sufficiently wide background to separate BS from reality. I have SEEN the scans and the delta's.

This also means they are double handicapped by the drones out there. They already need to work harder to focus.

Medication

[Anonymous Coward]

With all due respect to the opinions posted here, it irks me that everyone is so down on stimulant medication. I've been diagnosed myself with ADHD, and I'm extremely grateful to my parents for putting me on a heavy dose of stimulant, despite it being in early elementary school. It completely changed my life and allowed me to focus, and even though I never used to like the idea of being on medications, I embrace it openly now.

I for one am thankful that scientists are working on ways to properly diagnose this condition and others, and although I agree that ADHD is probably overdiagnosed, the current uneducated backlash in recent years against medication for ADHD (or, for that matter, for many mental disorders) pains me. Stimulant medication, antipsychotic medication, and antidepressant medication have helped a lot of people. I've known plenty of people who have seen benefits from them, and it's not some ridiculous placebo effect.

As someone who experiments with EEG neurofeedback

[pestilence669]

I welcome any neurological diagnosis that is based upon actual brain activity rather than questionnaires that ask "how are you feeling?" EEGs have long been accepted as an accurate method to diagnose epilepsy. The effects of ADD & ADHD on an EEG are unknown to most doctors, but backed by a good number of clinical studies. The field isn't mainstream, but it's still scientific.

I can say from experience that there's something to this. I own a computerized EEG system and use it for biofeedback training. I was skeptical of any positive effects, but they happened. Combining EEG w/ feedback does teach self-regulation at a rapid pace. It works via an unknown mechanism, just like anti-depressants and alcohol.

Simple technique

[PPH]

You sit a kid down, glue a couple of electrodes to his forehead and tell him to hold still for 15 minutes. If he can't, he's got ADHD.

Yes, disorder.

[HappyEngineer]

Humans did not evolve to sit at a desk, day after day, for most of their lives. Children being active and energetic is natural and healthy; it is not a disorder.

Yet sitting at a desk day after day is what most humans need to be able to do. If they can't do that then they can either fail at life or they can take steps (including medication) to modify the evolved behaviors to fit the way the real world requires.

Education is sometimes fun, but not everything can be made to be fun. Sometime you just have to learn lists of facts. Sometimes you have to work through the pain and learn something that you would rather not have to learn. Sometimes you need to work on a project at work which is not at all an enjoyable experience even if your job is enjoyable most of the time.

Some people have a ridiculous fear of all medications (as if caffeine wasn't an extremely common medication that vast numbers of people consume in order to address their natural ADHD).

Newsflash: Red Bull, coffee, and Coca Cola are medications for ADHD. If you need one of those to get through the day then you are self medicating. If that's enough then great, you don't need to take any prescription pills. If it's not enough then see a psychologist and get what you need to live your life properly.

Re:Yes, disorder.

[Lord Ender]

There are many characteristics that are advantageous in the modern world. It is nonetheless false to claim that a healthy person lacking any of these advantageous traits has a "disorder."

Being beautiful or tall helps in the modern world. So do short or ugly people have disorders? Why should attention be any different?

Re:Yes, disorder.

[atraintocry]

address their natural ADHD

Newsflash: Red Bull, coffee, and Coca Cola are medications for ADHD.

You do not understand what ADHD is. People getting tired, or not wanting to focus on things that are unpleasant...you're right, that's normal, and Red Bull is fine for that.

It's not ADHD.

Re:Yes, disorder.

[HappyEngineer]

You are right. I posted without thinking. If it happens every day whether rested or not then it is ADHD. If it happens even when the person enjoys doing what they are doing then it's ADHD.

However, what I was objecting to in my post (or at least, what I was thinking about objecting to in my post) was the silly idea that people should not take any medication for attention.

People constantly take medication in order to gain attention. There is nothing wrong with getting a prescription for something if the lack of focus is impacting their lives.

Re:Yes, disorder.

[HappyEngineer]

I suppose that if you are a model or an actor then yes, being ugly could be considered a disorder.

Attention is required is most jobs. If lack of attention is imparing a person's ability to properly function then yes, it is a disorder and it should be dealt with.

Re:Yes, disorder.

[Lord Ender]

Disorder doesn't mean what you think it means.

Re:Yes, disorder.

[Have Brain Will Rent]

Sorry but you are the one who doesn't understand ADHD. Many people self-medicate their ADHD with common stimulants because they've never been properly diagnosed. All the beverages named are caffeine bearing which provides the stimulation the brain needs. Nicotine does the same.

It's great that everyone is entitled to an opinion. It would be nice if they tried to make it an informed opinion. You and all the other folk here who clearly don't have a clue about ADHD should try and educate yourselves before spouting off in a public forum. And for those who won't let me say that telling someone with a disease that not only don't they have it but that the disease doesn't even exist is an actively harmful thing to do to that person.

Re:Yes, disorder.

[atraintocry]

I wasn't saying "there's no such thing as ADHD," what I was saying was that ADHD is more serious than what Red Bull can fix.

I hope you will read my post history for this article (it's only a few). I have ADD and even though I took ritalin most of my life I somehow fell for the "it's fake" conspiracy theory. It was hard for me to drown out the misinformation even when faced with not only my symptoms, but also the consequences of them over many years.

When I finally acknowledged what I had, it was like seeing the elephant in the room. Yet still I have people who are close to me (who've actually been hospitalized for going crazy) who I can't bring it up with because they think it's fake and I'm a nut for believing it, despite the fact that I'm experiencing something first-hand and they're just guessing.

Re:Yes, disorder.

[atraintocry]

I think I read more into your post than what was actually there. I'm sorry.

Caffeine does help a little bit but so far for me the thing that's helped the most was just realizing what I had. Even the medication won't help if you don't let it.

I'm sure there are different degrees of it, but the best description of it that I read was somewhere in this thread...somebody said it's like a buzzer that's set to go off every 30 seconds or so if you keep your mind in one place. It's a strange feeling.

I was on pills in grade school then I got off them. Then in high school I started up because I thought it might help. I'll never forget the first day. I got to school and I sat down and started talking to a friend. Right away she said, "is something wrong with you? You're acting different." At the time I thought she must have been psychic, because I wasn't doing anything or saying anything that I wouldn't have normally said and done.

But it was probably the first time she had ever seen me sit still without fidgeting and actually look her in the eye. And this is me at probably 18 years old. Everyone in the thread is saying, "that's how kids are supposed to act," and that may be true, but I'm not a kid and I still can't sit still. Even driving.

Caffeine can help a little bit but if I were to have enough caffeine to get that kind of feeling where I don't have to squirm around, my heart would probably explode out of my chest. The medication is just uppers, and of course caffeine is one too. So I get what you're saying. And it's not like they're a miracle cure, but they are somehow different from caffeine. It's not just about having enough energy to do things, it's about having enough energy to short circuit the ball that's bouncing around inside your head. I'm actually not that energetic in person but there's just always that twitch, it's hard to explain.

Re:Yes, disorder.

[Have Brain Will Rent]

My sincere apologies if I mistook your meaning. I can't do anything now but let my previous message stand as a response to all the naysayers who were denying the existence of ADHD.

Summarize the summary

[kimvette]

I'm sorry, I couldn't make it through the entire summary. I got distracted. Could someone please summarize the summ-- OH LOOK! A BUTTERFLY!

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[Jurily]

Not only can you detect ADHD with EEG, but you can treat it.

Fun fact: Hungary does not recognize the thing you're trying to treat. It simply does not exist here. Although we do have something similar, we call that boredom, and it's not a disease.

And most of the parents would personally beat the shit out of you for even suggesting drugging their children.

I think it's the kind of people who have the authority about these decisions that are different, not the children.

It's called Tenure...

[sadler121]

I don't know where you live, but the NEA pretty much controls the public schools in the USA, and always pushes for some kind of Tenure for their teachers.

This means that no matter how bad a teacher gets, once they're tenure, it becomes extremely hard to fire them.

Re:It's called Tenure...

[Hatta]

This means that no matter how bad a teacher gets, once they're tenure, it becomes extremely hard to fire them.

It also means that no matter how bad the administration gets, once a teacher gets tenure they have a measure of independence. In my experience, incompetent, backwards, and even vindictive administrators are far more common and harmful than bad teachers.

First, treat the ADD, then the work will follow

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm the AC who wrote "Ever talk to adults with ADD?" earlier.

What you're saying about developing a work ethic would be true if ADD didn't exist. A smart person could slide through high school without good habits and then find themselves behind in college. At that point, if they work hard to get good habits and a good work ethic things will get better.

But they don't, because ADD/ADHD are real, and all those good habits and work ethics just mean that you'll only take 2 hours (not three) to study what most students take 1 hour to study, or once you're in the working world that you'll take 11 hours (not 13) to do what should take 8 hours.

The point about ADD is that all the good work habits in the world don't help if you cannot focus and concentrate. You'll be in college and doing worse than students who don't have good habits at all. I was eating well, exercising regularly, working a real job and in an interesting major, and still couldn't concentrate the way students who lived on jolt, top ramen and beer could concentrate.

It was my excellent work habits that let me keep my job long enough (even with all the being behind schedule) to get diagnosed. Same work habits AND treating my ADD meant that I could get a day's work done in a day, and then when necessary start new projects because I had extra time.

With my ADD treated I could work at startups-- because I knew I could get 12 hours of work done in 12 hours.

Now I run my own business- it's the best possible job for many people with treated AD(H)D. I could never have done this with good work habits alone.

As an adult with ADD, no.

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Ritalin is a generic medicine that's been on the market for decades. There's no profit in it.

2. Ritalin doesn't affect me (or the other adults in my local CHADD group-- do you go there and talk with them?) as a binary "on / off" effect. All it means is that I can choose not to get distracted, a choice I never, ever had before my diagnosis.

When I'm taking ritalin and choose to concentrate, I can. If I need to do some free-flow creative thought, that's just as easy as it's ever been. The only difference is that when I get a really good idea, I can actually then take it and run with it. That's the thing about ADD- it's what you can't do during the best of times that's the problem. Of course no one likes boring work-- the problem is when you've found some wonderful work and you still can't get it done.

I can tell you all the things I did before and after my diagnosis--as a child I had a healthy diet. Lots of fruits and veggies, no packaged sugar, no food colors: all this is still true today. I do biofeedback (I own one) and can be in a beta-free zone pretty easily.

But none of that helps a fraction as much as the choices opened up to me by treating my ADD with ritalin.

The only time I ever was a "zombie" was before my diagnosis, because I was doing everything right and still taking hours longer than my peers during college and my first after-college jobs. Facing a lifetime of underperformance and stress was dreadful, because no matter how much I loved my work (and I loved it-- I had a great major and a great first job) I couldn't work well.

Now, with my treated ADD, I have a great career and choices I never had previously.

I hope you'll encourage your child to talk to adults with ADD once he's an adult, because if he's afraid of contemplating medication for ADD he might find himself where many of us once were.

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

...
I had an EEG done 20 years ago that diagnosed my ADD and my sister's ADHD... this is nothing new

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[h4rm0ny]

Interesting. What's your immigration policy and do you need any computer programmers? :)

Bad subject ... again

[Anonymous Coward]

"Company Claims EEG Scans Can Help Identify ADHD"

Any company can claim anything they want and it doesn't make it true or useful.
I bet EEG scans can find cancer, eye problems, chiropractic issues ... whatever they can convice someone to buy.

"Company Claims Breathing leads to death" works just as well.
I've never seen anyone who didn't breath at some point die, so it must be true!

True, Not New

[DynaSoar]

New technologies may well work, but the old works so well so as to make it superfluous.

Joel Lubar of East Tennessee State pioneered the use of EEG for a diagnostic for ADD 20 years or so ago, using technology that wasn't new even then (up to 16 channel, 40 Hz). 10 years ago I used an experimental high density, high speed (128 channel, 200 Hz) EEG machine to try to improve on his results and couldn't.

He also developed its use as a biofeedback (ie. 'neurofeedback') device, and has trained ADD 'out' of children in 6 to 8 weeks -- no drugs, no side effects, no stigma. He can get good results where they can be had, but 'soft' diagnoses by the misguided and self-serving far outnumber diagnoses validated by his or other objective and direct means. The depth, breadth and pathological thinking behind ADD over-diagnosis was so well presented by Diane McGuiness in "When Children Don't Learn" (chapters 9 and 10) that the APA invited her to write a dissenting opinion piece for the DSM IV.

The assertion that a kid that can sit still for something for 15 minutes does not have ADD is as wrong as the 'pill-kills-ills' school. ADD rarely means inability to attend to something alone. Mostly it means being unable to attend consistently while blocking out distractions. Many ADD kids can sit for an hour or two playing a video game if there isn't distraction. In fact it's how Lubar's neurofeedback works.

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[dov_0]

In my experience, most kids here in Aus who get the ADHD label just have the misfortune of lousy parents who haven't disciplined them properly from an early age. Not the kids fault, just the parents who either don't care enough, are too busy working anyway or just don't know how to rear kids.

Another group of kids have early or mis-diagnosed Narcolepsy and are really just trying to stay alert.

Philip K. Dick took dexedrine...

[big_paul76]

Which is prescribed to a lot of people for ADHD, both adults and children. IIRC, Dick said that "every single thing I wrote before 1973" he wrote while wired to the gills on dexedrine.

Now, I don't know how different the effects of aderhal and some of the newer varieties of stimulants are, but it doesn't seem that creativity is a problem.

Re:talked much with *adults* w/ AD(H)D? Thought no

[dave562]

I am very much in the same boat that you are. Did you try biofeedback at all? There is a great program that has been developed by The Drake Institute for Behavioral Medicine (you can Google them). They use biofeedback programs that are specifically tailored to each individual patient's needs. My sister and I both went through the program and we achieved similar results, but with very different treatment methodologies. The thing that I took away from the treatment is the feeling of being "concentrated". Concentration has a body feeling associated with it. Once you are able to relax, train your breathing and calibrate your mind, you can bring the feeling about at will.

Drugs are the easy way to do it. They just force the brain into a certain state and keep it there until they wear off. My sister ended up getting on drugs (I think she takes Adderol(sp?)). I prefer meditation, tai chi, kung fu and running. Diet helps too, as do some supplements (alpha-gpc, tryptophan, chlorella). However I wouldn't be able to use all of those tools without having gone through the biofeedback program. The biofeedback establishes the baseline. Once the baseline is established, it becomes easier to monitor how different factors in life affect it and adjust accordingly. For example, I've found that when I listen to music with lyrics, the songs get stuck in my head. So these days I listen to classical, jazz and electronica.

Not a syndrome?

[Jay L]

Anyone who thinks ADD is flat-out "not a syndrome" - as opposed to an over-diagnosed but existent syndrome - has clearly never stood halfway between the dishwasher and the trash can, holding a yogurt cup and spoon, unable to dispose of the one because he keeps getting distracted by what to do with the other.

It exists.

And better still...

[coryking]

...Forget what you were doing entirely and start making food or feeding the cat. I love that... going on an (important) mission only to get to the destination and do something completely different without even knowing I was forgetting to do something else. Then the significant other asks "did you complete $task" only to go "oh yeah... that whole thing".

Good times.

I skated by highschool

[spookthesunset]

I skated by in my university too. It wasn't until I tried to grow my own business and manage my time that I was diagnosed and treated for ADHD. You see, no matter what the hell I did, I couldn't fucking start working on anything. I'd just sit there in front of the computer and screw around the whole day. It wasn't that I didn't *want* to work on things, it was that it was almost impossible to do because I lacked any kind of structure. Looking back, even with structure I had trouble in college. I wasn't as social or as assertive as I could be simply because I couldn't follow conversations that well. I may have wanted to follow the conversation, but I simply could not.

Bottom line is, dont fuck with this stuff. If you think you might have ADHD, you owe it to yourself to get a diagnosis one way or the other. If you have it, ignore the tom cruise scientologists who are getting moderated up on this forum. You have too much potential to piss it away on stuff that is out of your control. I sure wish I was diagnosed much earlier. I probably could have gone to a better school and gotten into better programs.

Meta: this topic is why we have anonymous posting. No way in hell am I going to post this under my normal account....

Got me a great story

[GF678]

When I was in kindergarten, my parents were called up to attend a meeting with my teacher. The teacher had noticed I was being particularly irritable, twitching my head a lot, unable to keep still, and so not being able to remain focused on what I was suppose to be doing. I was being continually distracted and annoyed by something the teacher couldn't work out, so his diagnosis was that I had a learning disability and required medication/therapy.

Fortunately, the parents were suspicious of this, and so they asked me why I was having trouble keeping still. My answer? The little tag on the back inside of my shirt was annoying me by always flicking my neck. They cut the tag off, and the problem went away.

So this teacher, who didn't even bother to try and simply ASK me why I couldn't keep still, jumped to the conclusion that I had a learning/behavioral disability and needed treatment through drugs and therapy. I believe this was before the era of ADD/ADHD (or at least before they invented a name for the condition), but the conclusion was the same. I'm proud of my parents for not listening to this idiot.

Re:talked much with *adults* w/ AD(H)D? Thought no

[Eli Gottlieb]

As someone with ADD (not sure of the H, but exercise definitely helps so maybe), thank you. You've said exactly what I wanted to so that I can get off Slashdot and go to sleep.

Now, let's all go ride bikes!

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[Ihlosi]

Fun fact: Hungary does not recognize the thing you're trying to treat. It simply does not exist here.

I see that even after the fall of communism, it's long-standing tradition of denying reality is still alive and well.

Although we do have something similar, we call that boredom, and it's not a disease.

Oh, yeah. You probaly don't have paraplegia, either, but something similar, which you call laziness? And no blindness and muteness either, but something similar, which you call stupidity? Right.

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, as a lifelong sufferer of 'boredom', I have found ways to cope without medication (due to it's cost). I think of it more as a unique mental makeup that gives me a slightly different outlook and thinking skills than others.

But trollingly, if most parents in Hungary would 'beat the shit out of' another human in response to that person's suggestion, you guys need some serious stress relief.

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[Ihlosi]

But trollingly, if most parents in Hungary would 'beat the shit out of' another human in response to that person's suggestion, you guys need some serious stress relief.

No, they don't have violent psychopaths there. They have something similar, which they call "marginally civilized behavior".

All the cool kids have ADHD

[ThatsNotPudding]

Amazing how a 'disorder' went from non-existence to a nerd merit badge at light speed. Yes, we all have ADHD, because we're all precious, unique snowflakes - standing in line at the the Apple Store.

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to forget that it's easier (and cheaper) to drug your kid than it is to be a real parent these days.

Amazing!

[flyneye]

What will they think of next?
Maybe a test for cancer. Whoops, we have proved cancer exists.
Maybe we can CAT scan for cranial rectumitis. Xray for gluttial neuralgia.
How about a smear test for elves?
I bet this company is set for the revenues to come pouring in.
The subject gets tested,the doctors confer in the next room and flip a coin and VIOLA we have a diagnosis.
The subjects doctor is called with the news and the testing company puts the revenues in the coffer for future research into the viability of snake oil to heal baldness.

Convergence Insufficiency (eyes) and ADD

[Brian Stretch]

Convergence Insufficiency is often misdiagnosed as ADD and you're 3x as likely to have it if you have ADD/ADHD. It's a very common eye disorder that makes reading and other "near work" difficult, causes the mind to tire quickly from visual stress, etc. Most people with CI go undiagnosed because people didn't used to sit in front of computers all day and for some reason the average optometrist only cares about moving you towards 20/20 vision and doesn't take 2 minutes to check whether your eye muscles are working correctly.

CI usually presents in the mid teens, around 15 for me. It really messes with your head. The CI website can direct you to a clueful optometrist. If you think you have ADD and have trouble with reading in particular, get tested for CI. A few months of vision therapy fixes it.

Getting petrochemical additives out of your diet is a Good Thing too. So's exercise. Both helped me. Most artificial food coloring, preservatives and flavoring are petroleum based and thus toxic. Britain is in the process of banning the stuff. Food allergies and intolerances should be attended to too.

AFTER you've done all that, if you still need help THEN try meds. You may have abnormally low dopamine, etc that stimulants tweak. If you take serious doses of stims and it calms you down, you have geniune ADHD. Most people don't but stims will "help" just about anyone if they can handle the side effects. I wouldn't give stims to children but for adults with decent cardiovascular health, as a last resort, go for it.

Homeschooling?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a parent who homeschools an ADHD student, I'm not sure any of these are solutions, per se. Just because I have my son at home while we school him doesn't mean that the ADHD simply goes away. It's not something that only appears while in a school situation. It's pervasive and systemic. So, just as it makes regular schooling difficult, it also makes homeschooling difficult. Inability to concentrate, trouble focusing on simple activities, even though he's demonstrably very intelligent.

No easy solutions.

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[Golddess]

I see that even after the fall of communism, it's long-standing tradition of denying reality is still alive and well.

Fun fact, life sucks.

It's fine if you want to use a drug to make life more bearable, just don't kid yourself by hiding behind the "it's an illness" banner.

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[Ihlosi]

It's fine if you want to use a drug to make life more bearable, just don't kid yourself by hiding behind the "it's an illness" banner.

A condition that interferes with a persons functioning in everyday life can be labeled a disorder without any problems. In fact, that's pretty much the separating line between a personality trait and a disorder.

Besides, ADHD has been described in psychiatry for over a century. Its existence is hardly news. If you have really good arguments to the contrary, I'm looking forward to finding some of your journal articles on pubmed.

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[The Spoonman]

It's fine if you want to use a drug to make life more bearable, just don't kid yourself by hiding behind the "it's an illness" banner.

Hear, hear! Similarly, just the other day I saw some lazy shit riding around in a motorized chair on wheels! Can you believe it? How lazy can you get? I told him to stop being a lazy shit and get up and walk like the rest of us. He whined about how he was a paraplegic and he couldn't walk and blah, blah, blah poor me. I told him he just wasn't trying hard enough and his parents should be ashamed of themselves for raising such a lazy, useless drain on society.

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[Golddess]

Let me guess, you must consider so-called "intellectual property" to be the same thing as physical property.

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[Golddess]

ADHD has been described in psychiatry for over a century.

And homosexuality was listed as a "mental illness" in the DSM up until 1973 (I really should have made that the "fun fact" in my last post, but I was sleepy and not thinking). What's your point?

Now I have no doubt that these drugs help people to "fit in". I also have no problem with people taking said drugs, it is something I fully support even if the D.A.R.E. brainwashing means I wouldn't ever myself. But when you call it a "mental illness" you're doing it wrong.

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[Ihlosi]

And homosexuality was listed as a "mental illness" in the DSM up until 1973 (I really should have made that the "fun fact" in my last post, but I was sleepy and not thinking). What's your point?

Err ... have you read the first paragraph of my posting? The point about "interfering with everyday life"? ADHD does that, homosexuality doesn't.

it is something I fully support even if the D.A.R.E. brainwashing means I wouldn't ever myself.

You'd rather lose job after job and relationship after relationship? Big words.

But when you call it a "mental illness" you're doing it wrong.

I'm looking forward to your input to the next revision of the DSM or ICD. Or any of your publications.

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[The Spoonman]

I really have no idea what one has to do with the other. What I DO believe, however, is that since having been diagnosed with ADHD 8 years ago and having medication prescribed to me, my life has improved by orders of magnitude. Some psychological disorders can't be cured by traditional talk therapy. Do you think with sufficient counseling Charles Manson or Harold Shipman could be reintegrated into society (yes, I know, Shipman's dead now)? They're not caused by mistakes of parenting or boring teachers. They can't be corrected by beatings, exciting classes or stern parenting. Just like the paraplegic can't get up out of their chair by wishing it to be so, those of us with ADHD CANNOT "just try harder" and have all of their focus issues resolved. To suggest otherwise is as abhorrently ignorant to us as it would be to the paraplegic. Having been on both sides, I can tell you: the amount of effort you put into your day to remain focused is a mere fraction of what I did prior to medication. YOU are the lazy one by comparison.

I will grant, however, that there are cases of misdiagnosis. That does not imply the actual problem doesn't exist or can be shrugged off by an ignorant public simply because it can't be "seen". The fact that we are seeing what appears to be a rise in diagnosis has more to do with better understanding of the symptoms and a better acceptance of the problem so it can be dealt with properly. Some teachers will mistakenly refer a student to counseling because they feel the child might be exhibiting symptoms. Isn't it better that happen, rather than torture and punish a student who really is trying harder than you can possibly imagine? That's why those of us with the disorder are happy about the technology in this article. It means fewer misdiagnoses and, at least to me, shows conclusively that there's a biological difference between ADHD and crazy, lazy or stupid. None of the latter show up on an EEG.

It could also be that the needs of society are becoming more and more complex and demanding each day thus exacerbating and exposing the limitations of those of us with ADHD. There was a time in America where you didn't need a lot of focus, you just had to keep the plow's handles on your shoulder and follow the ox's ass. That time doesn't exist anymore. Regardless of the reason, ADHD is real, and has been known to be a real disorder for a very long time. Ignorance has as well, but the cure for that is even easier.

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[badkarmadayaccount]

Thank you for wording your post so well, you are the pride and joy for all of us. Keep up the good work, and hang on there, bro, you are not alone.

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[Golddess]

Interesting, I accept that you need drugs to be able to function, and yet you continue to hide behind the DSM like it's the be-all, end-all, if-this-says-it's-true-then-it's-true-for-everyone-and-if-it's-not-in-here-it's-false guide to mental health. Hell, if Jurily is to be believed, the entire country of Hungary (well, ok, I guess it really only reflects on Hungary's government or their equivalent to the APA) has differing ideas than the APA does in the US, but that doesn't automatically mean they're wrong (cue joke about just because 4.6 million people live in Alabama, that doesn't mean they're right).

Now I certainly don't think the entire DSM is a load of crap, only that it's not some holy bible of mental health that is 100% accurate. And I did read the first paragraph, but one person's "condition that interferes with a persons functioning in everyday life" is another person's "this is who I am, quit trying to fucking change who I am".

And yes, I would rather lose job after job and relationship after relationship, than become dependent on a drug that changes the very physiology of who I am, 24/7 (like I said, D.A.R.E. brainwashing, although oddly enough I find recreational drug use to be perfectly acceptable even on myself). Again, if you use such drugs, that's fine, you're not me so frankly I don't care that you use it.

Re:I can't belive I have to step in here to say th

[Golddess]

Shit, this was all about ADHD. I was getting threads confused and thought we were talking about depression.

I still feel that drugging is never required as I've never met an ADHD person who's required drugs (which admittedly that pool isn't very big), but I'm certainly open to the possibility that there are cases where drugs are required.