Allegedly Rigged Product Demo In SAP Suit Goes Missing

narramissic writes "Waste Management sued SAP in March 2008 over a failed ERP project. Now, well into the pre-trial discovery process, a presale product demonstration software package that Waste Management says was a key element of the 'false representations' SAP made to 'induce Waste Management into entering a software licensing and implementation agreement' has gone missing. Naturally, both sides say the other has it. And SAP, for its part, says it has 'searched extensively' for the system and wants it 'as much or more' as Waste Management, since it 'will help SAP disprove WM's fraud claim.'"

Comments

like every other sales demo

[SoupGuru]

So this is pretty much like any other sales demo?

Re:like every other sales demo

[Locke2005]

In response to Waste Management's complaint, SAP has said in part that the company failed to "timely and accurately define its business requirements" and did not supply "sufficient, knowledgeable, decision-empowered users and managers" to work on the project. So this was pretty much like every software project I've ever worked on?

Re:like every other sales demo

[dave562]

Pretty much. I worked for a consulting company, and one of our clients needed a system to manage their manufacturing and distribution processes. Developing a system like that was far beyond the scope of our ability, but we developed the needs analysis (documented all of their internal processes, etc) and helped them shop for vendors. We eventually narrowed it down to Epicor and the Epicor sales staff of course promised everything under the heavens... then signed a contract committing to their promises. A year and a half later, when the product STILL wasn't working, the client sued Epicor for breach of contract. We were in the clear because we just did the needs analysis, and we didn't know that Epicor was full of crap.

It seems like there are two worlds, the ideal world, and the real world. In the ideal world, you can purchase an off the shelf software package that supports all of your business processes. In the real world, you find something that comes as close as possible, and then modify the way you do business... or, you hire programmers/farm out the programming work to customize the hell out of it.

Re:like every other sales demo

[Runaway1956]

I'm pretty sure that I see "incompetence" stamped all over this. On BOTH sides. WM is so impompetent, that they need software to manage their company. Software is no replacement for managerial skills. SAP would have us believe that they are so incompetent that they only ever produced ONE COPY of a presentation software, with no backups. And, they've lost it.

The judge needs to have all parties flogged and thrown in the frigging DUNGEON. Feed them watery gruel for a year, let them out, and see if they are ready to proceed with a trial.

Re:like every other sales demo

[sortius_nod]

Sounds like most projects I've worked on.

The issue, however, is that SAP made claims based on little to no information, nor people who had any idea on what the outcomes should be. Now, I'm no project management expert, but this seems like a monumentally stupid thing to do.

Whether the demo was rigged or not, SAP went into an agreement without full details and without real confidence that the product they are delivering would actually do what the client wants.

Re:like every other sales demo

[TheRealMindChild]

"So I have this great Wazmo that you certainly need! It jimmies your jewels so that they hum with the harmony of a negative color! You want to buy it, we want to sell it! It is a win-win for everyone!"

That is my sales pitch... and you just bought my Wazmo. Who is the idiot?

Re:like every other sales demo

[Decameron81]

Sounds like most projects I've worked on.

The issue, however, is that SAP made claims based on little to no information, nor people who had any idea on what the outcomes should be. Now, I'm no project management expert, but this seems like a monumentally stupid thing to do.

Whether the demo was rigged or not, SAP went into an agreement without full details and without real confidence that the product they are delivering would actually do what the client wants.

IMHO it's more complex than that. There's guilt in both sides.

Customers are guilty in that they often don't bother trying to check if what they are being sold is feasible at all. The end result is that most of the times they are willing to pay for more features in less time, even when that "more" is clearly an impossible goal. For instance if I asked you to develop an MSN clone with a proprietary protocol from scratch, and you told me it'd be ready in a week for $20, I would look for someone else to get it done.

Problem is when the customer doesn't know better, and is unreasonable.

Re:like every other sales demo

[ppanon]

WM is so impompetent[sic], that they need software to manage their company.

Wow, so you think that trying to use software to improve your business processes by automating as many deterministic tasks as possible is a sign of incompetence? So what do you do exactly? If you're a programmer, can we assume that you demonstrate your competence by manually translating all your high-level language programs into machine code by hand?

Re:like every other sales demo

[hairyfeet]

I have to agree, that while it sounds like both sides didn't bring the brightest bulbs to the table, SAP screwed the bigger pooch by signing the agreement without knowing what they were getting into. It is like when I build a new PC. Folks often just want me to quote them some price but I refuse. I ask them to at least give me an IDEA of what they want, to which I usually get something like "Really really fast with a crapload of memory(which you have to watch out for, because half the time they say memory when they mean HDD space) and super duper graphics and..". It reminds me of that old line from Robocop-"I want a car that is really really fast and gets really shitty gas mileage! I want a fully loaded 6000 SUX!

So then I quote them a crazy price and after they are done choking I say "Now why don't you just sit down and tell what you want to DO with it, and I can help you design an affordable machine that will do what you want and be reliable." and every time their description ends up getting them a dual core with 4Gb of RAM, a 250-500Gb HDD, Onboard Graphics(which are actually pretty good now) and XP Home. And they leave with a smile on their face and are gushing to their friends about how great I am.

The problem is when the client asked for the moon for $1 SAP said "sure, we'll throw in Mars while we are at it!" instead of simply refusing to sign anything until they sat down with somebody with a brain that could tell them what they actually needed the thing to DO, instead of what they WANTED. Because I have found those two things are almost never even slightly related. IMHO it is always better to give the customer what they need and not what they want. If you meet their needs they are usually happy campers. If you try to give them their desires not only will it be expensive as hell, it will often not actually do what they need. And nothing pisses off a customer more than spending big bucks and finding out after all is said and done they are still stuck with the same problems they had before they paid you.

Re:like every other sales demo

[Runaway1956]

From the article: "ERP (enterprise resource planning) project"

Meaning, the management is unsure of what resources they have, and/or what resources they need, and/or how the resources should be used. Resources which might include personnel, fleet, plant and equipment, or not.

Bottom line - if management doesn't know what they have, or how to use it, they can't possibly program a software to manage all of it for them.

Next to the bottom line - the company failed in their stated goal of making software do the job, and they failed in management after the software failed.

Incompetent. (there, I spelled it right this time, find something else to (sic))

Re:like every other sales demo

[Anonymous Coward]

Customers are guilty in that they often don't bother trying to check if what they are being sold is feasible at all.

The company selling the "solution" is supposedly the expert in the field. As the self-styled experts, the company is supposed to know (or to be able to easily determine) if the "solution" is feasible. If the customer already knew what was a feasible solution, what do they need the "solution" provider for?

Re:like every other sales demo

[DreamMaster]

I can't agree more wholeheartedly with the above (unclear specifications). I see it all the time in my business too.

If you go to the folllowing page: http://slashweb.org/programming/25-best-programmer-comics.html [top 25 programmer jokes], one is the classic Dilbert strip where Alice tries to nail down a client's specifications... one of my favourite jokes of all time.

Re:like every other sales demo

[jsebrech]

The company I work for also sells waste management solutions. The first time we sold it, we took a planning tool meant for building maintenance (repairing light bulbs and the like) and repurposed it. Even today the garbage trucks still have to be entered into the system as employees.

So, yeah, this is pretty common.

Then again, the users are very positive about our solution, which is apparently one of the easiest to use in the market. That says a lot about just how bad the niche enterprise software business is in general. People think those special-purpose apps are well-crafted, but because they're special purpose they usually are held to a much lower standard than consumer apps.

The most embarassing "enterprise" niche software product I've seen was a solution for patient transport in hospitals. It was written by a hobbyist, and I could have done a better job at 15 than that guy did. Still, they sold it for thousands of dollars a seat, and were apparently one of the key players in the patient transport business. Scary.

Re:like every other sales demo

[mgblst]

One of the reasons companies go to external companies like SAP, is because they don't have the technical knowledge necessary to build the thing themselves, and so how can they know when they are being lied to. This is in no way the companies fault, they aren't expected to be lied to, they aren't expected to be ripped off!

What a ridiculous way of looking at things.

Re:like every other sales demo

[jsebrech]

This happens all the time in the specialized software business.

Usually the needs are so particular that there's nothing in the market that does exactly what they want. So, you get approached by someone who knows you don't sell what they need, but they hope you can build/adapt something quickly.

The surprising thing is that if you press for exact specs at the beginning of the project, the entire project is often derailed. The realization by the customer that they don't know what they want is often enough to scare them away from buying a solution for their problem. Sales will put a lot of pressure on development in the form "just give us a general quote, we'll figure it out once they sign". For sales, every signature is a win. For the business as a whole, some projects are money losers.

Re:like every other sales demo

[jsebrech]

No, ERP in waste management means scheduling when each garbage truck will do which round, and who is going to be on it. Are you really going to schedule that on paper? What happens if you have a run of the flu, and 10 percent calls in sick? Believe me, a well-run organization uses software for this.

They probably had to reduce their planning department to save costs, and couldn't get the job done without software.

Re:like every other sales demo

[Runaway1956]

"They probably had to reduce their planning department to save costs, and couldn't get the job done without software."

Obviously, the software didn't do the job. If, as you claim, they laid people off IN ANTICIPATION that the untested software could replace people, that only proves my charge of incompetence.

And, it really doesn't take a genius to schedule people to make a garbage run. Even in a moderately large city (500,000 to 1 million) all it takes is one idiot savant, or two to three normal people. I mean, WM doesn't put tens of thousands of people in the field in a city that size!!

The entire scenario reeks of incompetence, no matter how much someone may wish to justify reliance on software. BEFORE you rely on software, you MUST have someone who understands the software. No matter HOW GOOD the software, you must have a backup plan. Fail to have alternative plans, and you fail hard. Ask anyone with a military background.

Crap, they could have hired one drill sergeant to make personnel assignments. Most of them qualify as idiot savants, after all.

Re:like every other sales demo

[diskis]

Actually software like SAP requre their own administrative/support staff. SAP is so complex (=administrative nightmare) that a company must have specialists available if they are to purchase it.
And purchasing SAP is not because of lack of technical expertise, it's because software in that scale takes years and years to develop and test. Buy it, and it's up and running in a few weeks.

Re:like every other sales demo

[cerberusss]

instead of simply refusing to sign anything until they sat down with somebody with a brain that could tell them what they actually needed the thing to DO, instead of what they WANTED

In my opinion, it doesn't always work like that. I run my own business and regularly the following happens:

• Client posts a pretty generic Request For Proposal (RFP) on a website
• I put in some thought (say, an hour) and give a rough price
• They call me and make an appointment
• We meet and talk it through for about two hours
• I make a final proposal, another four hours.

Now I've spend a day and have not yet seen a single penny. The customer usually replies with "thanks for the proposal, but you should change this-and-that, and we should talk more about the details".

To which I usually say -- look we can talk about it some more, but I already have spent a lot of time. Are you going to sign or not? So me and the client sign an agreement without knowing all details. These are hammered out later in a functional design. If I come to the conclusion that the devil is in the details and the tolerances in my quoted price are too limited, I tell them this and possibly break out of the agreement.

The point is that these two parties did not break out of the agreement early enough.

Re:like every other sales demo

[mathman47]

Yes, but SAP supposedly isn't so specialized. It is everything for every business. I was on the project at a GMC division and went through all the sales stuff and helped develop the 140 page needs document and the software selection. SAP wasn't the only vendor. Selection took over a year. Didn't really help. Then the project started. I wasn't added to that staff until 9 months in. I wasn't part of most of the decisions, but I was able to point out a few disasters. But... Our first implementation was in our Aftermarket Business Unit. A few things really pissed me off. First, we paid to send their techs to classes to learn their software. Users were asked how to do set the switches. All the experienced people bounced in/out of the project. Probably the worst part was their lack of business experience. No idea of the processes involved in bidding, quoting, purchasing, scheduling, receiving, warehousing, allocating, picking, packing, and shipping. And these were the reasons we bought SAP. When it was finally implemented, the executives were happy while the floor supervisors lost all their hair. Just too many switches without the knowledge of what they did. I went on medical leave for 2 years and retired shortly after I returned to work. I heard it was implemented in manufacturing and they didn't know what to build and went over 160+ engines behind schedule. Bottom line: watch what you spend your money on. Hire outside contractors that know your business, and be sure the people that SAP puts on your project have been trained before they show up. That said, SAP is the most capable ERP product out there and is flexible enough to be used in your business, no matter what it is.

Re:like every other sales demo

[Another, completely]

Often, the proposal may start as reasonable, except that it assumes cooperation from the customer, and become unreasonable in the client's specific bureaucracy. I don't know what happened with this project, but I've seen it a few times before.

If you ask a professional to repaint a building, he can look it over and give a reasonable estimate. Then, three weeks before the job, he sends you a note to remind you that you need to specify a colour. Two weeks before the job, you still haven't chosen a colour, so he takes time away from other work to make a personal visit and force an answer from you. One week before the job, you finally tell him, and he needs to pay his supplier extra for a short-notice order on all the paint. Then he shows up on the appointed day, but you forgot to tell the building management to reserve the parking spaces the painter said would be required, and somebody from a different part of the company scheduled an all-day media event in the lobby because your company doesn't have a decent system for reserving facility use...

Incompetent customers can cause overruns in reasonable estimates.

Re:like every other sales demo

[Aceticon]

I work in Software Engineering and I've worked for both IT Consultancies and IT Products companies (and also many non-IT companies).

My experience in the industry is that there are very, very few people that are knowledgeable and capable in all of Requirements Gathering, Analysis and Software Engineering.

You need somebody that:

• Can speak to non-technical oriented counterparts using their terminology.
• Can detect and distinguish when the business client is presenting solution oriented requests and guide them to actually look at their needs instead.
• Guide a business client through discovery and analysis of their business needs.
• Have enough technical expertise to know what's feasible and not-feasible plus what's cheaper and what's more expensive (often, some business "needs" turn out to be "nice to haves" which will be dropped if too expensive).
• Have enough project experience to actually know the typical "additional needs" that are often forgotten during the initial stage and usually pop-up once the software starts being used (things like usage reports, access control and others).

In a way, this is the same pattern as the approach that you describe above.

In this industry, the vast majority of the people that end up being send to do what in the end boils down to Requirements Gathering and Technical Analysis fall in one of the following groups:

• Salesman: know nothing about technical things, will happily commit to having the impossible done yesterday and will say whatever it takes to get their sales commission.
• Managers: often coming from a technical background, sometimes not. Most moved to management without ever have gone through the experience of doing Technical Analysis, which means that (if they're good managers) they know people, they know some low level out of date technical stuff (or very high level, if they're not from a technical background) but they don't know how to survey, decompose and evaluate a business process and design a technical solution that fits into it (e.g. analysis).
• Developers: your typical techie. Knows all about the nitty-gritty details of developing applications but has trouble talking to a business counterpart in business terms. While they know all about the feasibility of implementing something or not, they have a lot of trouble understanding business processes and needs and creating technical solutions that actually fit into and complement existing business processes.
• Consultants: basically a cross between a salesmen and a developer. They're usually all over the place with regards to their expertise, if you're lucky you might actually get one that knows all the necessary things (rare). They can usually talk business enough to do some requirements gathering and know technology enough to know what can and cannot be done, but have trouble in the analysis part of things. The problem with consultants is that many companies (especially IT consultancies) will put the label "consultant" in anybody and everybody, so you can't rely on a "consultant" actually having enough experience in the relevant areas to do a proper requirements gathering and analysis.
• Business Analysts: Usually found in large non-IT companies, supposedly to bridge between the business and IT. Usually they are people promoted from a low-level business, secretarial or sales position. They don't usually have technical backgrounds, often know a lot about one kind of business but know almost nothing about analysis. They're not methodical and produce vaguely worded requirements documents which are incomplete, unclear, internally-inconsistent and often self-denying (e.g. requiring both A and not-A as items of functionality).

Re:like every other sales demo

[jeffshoaf]

Buy it, and it's up and running in a few weeks.

You've obviously never been involved in an SAP implementation. If you have SAP up and running in 18 months, you've done a "quick" SAP implementation!

Re:like every other sales demo

[Mango Fett]

And nothing pisses off a customer more than spending big bucks and finding out after all is said and done they are still stuck with the same problems they had before they paid you.

In my experience, having been on 3 sides of this - client, vendor and 3rd party system integrator - many times, they're struck with the same problems they had before because the business refuses to update their processes. Case in point, a few years ago, was working on a nifty java solution for a major bank. Their existing process was mainframe. They had no interest in process re-engineering, nor did they have any interest in using out of the box industry standard functionality. Ego and laziness drives many business decisions. Be it "we've got 30 years of knowledge in this mainframe system, we won't change processes" to "we can't assign a full time SME to this effort", in the end, business has a huge part in why projects fail.

As for SAP, big whoop. A salesman sold a blue sky picture with vaporware and a presentation. That's sort of the norm. Shame on WM for falling for it. I would be a dollar to donuts that an "enterprise architect" was asleep at the wheel, dreaming up grandiose ivory tower patterns that could never be implemented in the real world on a timely, cost effective basis, and thought the SAP proposal was lock step with his vision.

Being on the implementation side, I'm always at odds with our sales staff. Luckily, I'm now high enough up on the food chain that I've been able to implement a golden rule, which has worked: "All presales demos, proof of concepts and prototypes must be demonstrative of out of the box functionality, not include customization unless it is achieved through out of the box customization options". Customers seem to love it, because I can walk in with sales, talk tech and then show their tech people that it's not smoke and mirrors. Others can't/won't/don't.

Re:like every other sales demo

[The_reformant]

I dont think you've had much experience in the enterprise world. Ive only used toy SAP systems to test some interfacing but typical implementations are gignormous this is the kind of stuff that replaces departments of hundreds of people.

Re:like every other sales demo

[Thaelon]

The first time we sold it, we took a planning tool meant for building maintenance (repairing light bulbs and the like) and repurposed it. Even today the garbage trucks still have to be entered into the system as employees.

I love that word.

It always makes me think of doing something wildly inappropriate for utterly selfish reasons. Like selling a company a bunch of hammers you've "repurposed" as screwdrivers by labeling them screwdrivers - and no other changes - then selling them. Then lying through your teeth saying they're screwdrivers simply because you've decided you want their money but don't actually have what they want.

Re:like every other sales demo

[berend botje]

See, now I know you're lying. You could have said three years and maybe you could have fooled some people. But you had to go with a completely unbelievable 18 months. Ridiculous! Preposterous! Unpossible!

On a more serious note, I've witnessed a SAP implementation as a replacement of an in-house developed application. Original development took two years, SAP took four years. And after those four years the application still didn't have all the functionality of the original app. You might take a guess at the costs involved, but I assure you that it was a lot higher than that. Guess again and you're still not thinking in the same ballpark.

SAP, that name still sends shivers up my spine.

Re:like every other sales demo

[Runaway1956]

No, I don't have that much experience in enterprise. However, I'm quite aware that incompetence scales quite well to all sizes of companies and institutions. The concepts are the same, no matter what size.

Reliance on an untested software, as opposed to any number of people who get the job done, is most definitely a sign of incompetence. You may replace the word "software" with almost any other term, and the concept is the same.

As for incompetence scaling well to any size corporation - look at Wall Street, General Motors, and Chrysler. Ford seems to be pulling it's collective head out of their collective asses at the 11th hour, or they would be on the list as well. Only time will tell if that last minute shot of oxygen into their collective heads will save them.....

Re:like every other sales demo

[afidel]

Exactly, we're a midsized (S&P 500) company with fairly minimal requirements by enterprise standards and yet our ERP implementation was 6 months and that was considered blazing fast. Two and a half years later we are just really hitting our stride with the system, both from an IT perspective and from a business perspective.

Re:like every other sales demo

[durdur]

Your experience with hardware doesn't exactly translate to software. ERP systems are huge, complex, over-engineered beasts. There is often no economy version (SAP actually has a version for small/medium businesses but I assume that's not what the customer is buying here).

Also, the sales guys in this business really only care about their commission check. What happens after the sale is Somebody Else's Problem. Unlike you as a one-person shop, the customer won't be calling sales guy for support. Or suing them (personally) if there's a bigger issue.

Re:like every other sales demo

[Anonymous Coward]

you give people XP home? that makes me ill.

Re:like every other sales demo

[Daravon]

Me.

Only because I want one too...

Re:like every other sales demo

[gtall]

I don't believe you could run a garbage company scheduling the way you think it ought to work. It would be grossly inefficient. Those trucks use a lot of expensive fuel. You cannot just send them out on routes, those routes have to be designed to be efficient. Roads get closed periodically. Your mix of trucks has to be matched to the routes. You must also design the routes so they mesh with where to put all the stuff you pick up. And you must also figure in shifting prices and locations to put the crap you collect. And if you are recycling, that's a whole other lot of scheduling.

There are customers complaining for every missed pickup that you must some how get back to servicing without spending more than their year's worth of fees. Then you must figure in sick time for employees, employees quitting, new employees not being as inefficient as trained employees. And if you have different tiers of employees, you must figure health benefits, retirement, etc.

I'm sure there's a whole lot I've left out.

Re:like every other sales demo

[Runaway1956]

Odd. I was thinking about that, really. And, I was comparing it to the trucking industry in the '70's through today. Back in '70, an office with 5 to 10 individuals managed fleets of as many as 300 trucks, nationwide, WITHOUT benefit of computers. All they had were telephones, and their brains.

Today? A similar number of dispatchers manage similar numbers of trucks, WITH computers. There have been some benefits, I won't knock the use of computers. Some improvements in efficiency, among other things. But, trucking companies STILL rely on people. WM has a few concerns that the average trucking company doesn't - and some of the concerns that they share with trucking companies have to be approached a little differently. But still - software is NOT a freaking necessity. People can do the job.

And, still, getting rid of people IN ANTICIPATION OF a set of software that can replace them is the ultimate in managerial incompetence. I just can't seem to make that clear, can I?

Obviously, the people calling the shots at WM should be run off, or offered jobs on the trucks, and they should be replaced by people who understand what CYA means, among other things.

Re:like every other sales demo

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I don't have that much experience in enterprise.

Then perhaps you should shut the fuck up, you clueless noob.

Re:like every other sales demo

[Hognoxious]

Everyone is going on about scheduling garbage truck routes. There's a heck of a lot more to ERP than that.

Re:like every other sales demo

[Hognoxious]

Back in '70, an office with 5 to 10 individuals managed fleets of as many as 300 trucks, nationwide, WITHOUT benefit of computers. All they had were telephones, and their brains.

I totally agree. Look at banks. Back in the day, if you wanted to take cash out of your account, you had to go (Mon - Fri, between 10 and 12 or 2 and 4) and fill in a form and they'd give you the notes.

Now, you can put your card in some machine and take money out anytime anywhere. Don't even get me started about bill payments. They've just got lazy, instead of having to write a cheque, send it off and have dozens of people process it through to its final result you can do a couple of clicks on an interweb and it's done.

Obviously, computerisation is the reason for the current financial crisis, global warming and the impending resumption of thr Korean war.

Re:like every other sales demo

[Hognoxious]

Didn't have the same functionality, or didn't do it exactly the same, step by step, screen by screen way?

In my experience, out of a 100 cases where they claim the former, 95 are the latter.

Re:like every other sales demo

[Hognoxious]

I was disappointed to find that the one about the person with a low 6 digit slashdot ID who can't do hyoerlinks properly wasn't on there.

Re:like every other sales demo

[berend botje]

As in, didn't support the same number of business processes. I'm not sure if the application ever got finished as I've since gone to greener pastures.

Re:like every other sales demo

[Decameron81]

That's a good point too. Lazy customers are a PITA!

Re:like every other sales demo

[cloudmaster]

I guess you've gotta get down into the 5-digit range to handle both copy/paste and spelling... ;)

Re:like every other sales demo

[Hognoxious]

I can spell perfectly well thank you very much, I just can't type. Clod, etc.

Re:like every other sales demo

[Hognoxious]

Is that supposed to be an answer?

SAP reply was to waste management...

[Anonymous Coward]

in reference to cleaning up this mess...

"Can't someone else do it?"

Waste management was not amused.

3 points for the reference.

I for one...

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Would definitely trust SAP on this. Who wouldn't trust an ERP vendor that either managed to lose a vital file or managed to "lose" a vital file?

Getting to choose between serious incompetence and outright malice is always fun.

Re:I for one...

[sys.stdout.write]

Apparently you've never used SAP.

SAP is how Lucifer interacts with our world.

Any product demo showing SAP working in a satisfactory manner is clearly fraud.

Re:I for one...

[Chris Burke]

Getting to choose between serious incompetence and outright malice is always fun.

Forget the lost demo, I have to make that choice every time I interact with SAP.

Though frankly I think it's a combination of both -- the incompetence being when SAP actually does work.

Re:I for one...

[ViennaSt]

Give them a break, they clearly "don't recall remembering" what happened to the file. Ah, gub'ment.

Re:I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

SAP:

Shitty Ass Program
Sucks As Predicted
Suppliers Are Pissed
Still Are Problems...

Re:I for one...

[jeffbruce]

You missed Stop All Production

Re:I for one...

[geekoid]

How DARE you lower Lucifefrrs name in association with that pile of crap.

Lucifer is far more clever in his malice.

It was create by a few German Gnomes that mostly live in an underground complex with one way in or out.

Now, the people who buy SAP, they have Lucifer whispering in their ears.

Re:I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

What it really means:

Suck Aryan Penises

Re:I for one...

[interkin3tic]

Seriously, what is ERP and what is SAP? Like, from a tree?

NEVER USE ACRONYMS WITHOUT DEFINING THEM!

Re:I for one...

[Jake73]

Actually, I'm convinced SAP saves big companies millions of dollars. They do so by losing invoices or making it so difficult for other companies to invoice them that these invoices never get paid. Companies using SAP have much higher payment aging than other companies.

Re:I for one...

[petermgreen]

And how much does it cost those big companies in lost productivity when an unpaid supplier deciedes they have had enough and stops shipments?

Re:I for one...

[blind biker]

SAP is how Lucifer interacts with our world.

I thought that was through Lotus Notes applications. They definitely emanate a creepy feeling, and nobody who used them kept his/her sanity.

Re:I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called IDES.

SAP already invested a crazy amount of time and energy in making the mother of all tech demos, and it just *barely* works.

Trust me - I've supported SAP since the 90s. It is pure evil.
Still beats Oracle Apps (which are the worst use of an RDBMS ever)

Re:I for one...

[bennomatic]

Never is a strong word.

In some cases, an acronym is not an acronym. SAP is the company name. What does it stand for? Maybe something, but "SAP" is how people refer to the company that's called "SAP".

And in some cases, the acronym is totally unique and is accepted terminology. Think "AM", "PM", "AD", "BC". "ERP" isn't quite that ubiquitous, but it is enough so that a quick Google search--the modern equivalent of a dictionary search--would tell you exactly what you need to know. Even if they did spell it out (Enterprise Resource Planning), it might not mean anything useful to people who don't deal with that sort of software anyway, so they may as well look it up.

Re:I for one...

[superdave80]

While working for a factory that was switching over to SAP, I noticed that anyone outside of the SAP world (users) pronounces it 'Sap' (like from a tree). While everyone in the SAP world (consultants, etc) is very careful to pronounce it S-A-P (sounding out each letter). And they are quick to tell people that pronounce it 'Sap' that it should be pronounced S-A-P.

The software sucked so badly, and I hated it so much, that whenever I was around our SAP consultants, I made a conscience effort to say 'Sap' instead of S-A-P every chance I got. :-)

Re:I for one...

[_Sprocket_]

And how much does it cost those big companies in lost productivity when an unpaid supplier deciedes they have had enough and stops shipments?

That's the beauty of it. You go with a supplier that's large enough to have their own SAP implementation. That way, the supplier is pretty much in the dark as well and it takes them a while to realize they should have cut you off years ago.

Re:I for one...

[fishbowl]

Bash SAP all you want, provided you come to the table with an alternative.

Re:I for one...

[enogeejon]

fyi, ERP = Enterprise Resource Planning SAP = Systemanalyse und Programmentwicklung which roughly translates into System Analysis and Programming. Now, since I work as a SAP BASIS (sys. admin.) administrator at a managed services hosting company so I actually get to work with multiple companies SAP landscapes daily so I can easily play devils advocate for SAP here. Maybe part of the problem for Waste Management is that they have a less than stellar implementation partner. It can easily take months for the developers to tailor SAP for the customer, often so long that you might think that writing something from the ground up makes more sense and maybe sometimes it does. Really, it depends on the scope of your business and what you really want to do and seriously, the scope of SAP is very large even without any of the add on products. However, as to losing the system, neither company should have lost it though I have my doubts that there are many IT managers who could manage to get any version of SAP installed and working on their own so the Waste Management IT Manager and their staff might just have tried to install the demo but failed and then chucked it. As I really see it though, if the business can't clearly define their needs then they are going to just end up wasting lots of money no matter what software they are working with, I have seen it with .NET, Java, and php/mysql as well as SAP.

Re:I for one...

[b4dc0d3r]

This is not funny. I work at a fortune 11x company and I know several things are true.

1) We use SAP because they made a pitch and hooked a sucker in a suit.
2) You buy SAP, then a plan to "customize" it.
3) Customize means "finish the code"
4) It also means you pay high-ranking aka high-earning business types piles of money to give requirements to SAP when a junior coder could just do the obvious and have something that works
5) The requirements you give to SAP are exactly the same as what the sales pitch said it already did

I'm sure I could go on. This is not a funny comment, it is how SAP works. Mod me scary or obvious if you want, but not funny.

Re:I for one...

[Qzukk]

How DARE you lower Lucifefrrs name in association with that pile of crap.

I knew I should have taken Satan's offer! All I got for selling my soul to SAP was a tech demo, and it disappeared the next day!

Re:I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a SAP SAP World.

Re:I for one...

[interkin3tic]

You're right, never is a strong word. Maybe I should have said "always define the acronym unless you're certain everyone will know what it is." In this case, I didn't.

However

And in some cases, the acronym is totally unique and is accepted terminology. Think "AM", "PM", "AD", "BC". "ERP" isn't quite that ubiquitous, but it is enough so that a quick Google search--the modern equivalent of a dictionary search--would tell you exactly what you need to know.

No, I did a wiki search:

The abbreviation, acronym, or initialism SAP may stand for:
RamÃn Villeda Morales International Airport, located in San Pedro Sula, Honduras (IATA code is SAP)
Serum Amyloid P Component, the identical serum form of Amyloid P component (AP)
Santa Paula, California (Amtrak station code: SAP)
Second audio program, an auxiliary audio channel for television that can be broadcast or transmitted both over the air and by cable TV
Soon As Possible, used in manufacturing and shipping
Seminal acid phosphatase, an enzyme produced by the prostate.
Special Assistance Plan, an academic programme in Singapore
Special access program, Secret clandestine operations program, run by secret governmental agency
Stabilisation and Association process of the European Union for the western Balkans states
Statements of Administrative Policy, the formal mechanism through which presidential views about pending legislation are communicated to Capitol Hill
Standard Assessment Procedure, the UK government's recommended system for energy rating of dwellings
Statutory Accounting Principals
Strategic Action Programme as part of a GEF international waters project
Strike Anywhere Productions, American film company
Strong Anthropic Principle, the idea proposing that the universe must produce life
Structural Adjustment Program of the IMF
Substance Abuse Professional, a specific qualifications needed by drug/alcohol counselors in order to perform drug assessments on individuals tested under the U.S. Federal DOT (United States Department of Transportation) guidelines
Superabsorbent polymer, a polymer able to absorb tens or hundreds of times its own weight in water
South African Police, the national law enforcement organisation of South Africa between 1913 and 1994
Shrimp Alkaline Phosphatase, a common alkaline phosphatase from a species of arctic shrimp
The Seabirds Advisory Panel, a committee set up to advise the British Birds Rarities Committee on seabird records

In computing and technology:
SAP AG, a global software company headquartered in Walldorf, Germany or its various products.
Either SAP R/3 or SAP ERP, two versions of the enterprise resource planning software product of SAP AG.
Systems, Applications and Products in Data Processing - origin from SAP AG
Session Announcement Protocol, a computer protocol for broadcasting multicast session information
Service Advertising Protocol, an IPX network protocol that makes the process of adding and removing services on an IPX internetwork dynamic
Service Access Point, an identifying label for network endpoints used in OSI networking
Atari SAP music format, format used for storing music from 8-bit Atari computers and consoles
System Assistance Processor, an auxiliary I/O processor on IBM mainframes
SAP2000, a structural analysis program

A lot of them are obviously not it, but the summary is so vague, that all of these could be what SAP refers to from my perspective

Strategic Action Programme
Superabsorbent polymer
Second audio program
SAP AG, a global software company
Systems, Applications and Products in Data Processing - origin from SAP AG
Session Announcement Protocol
Service Advertising Protocol
Service Access Point

Re:I for one...

[amicusNYCL]

NEVER USE ACRONYMS WITHOUT DEFINING THEM!

Really?

Hey man, you got the time?
Sure, it's 10am. That's from the Latin ante meridiem, by the way, in case you were wondering. That means it's between midnight and noon.

Re:I for one...

[DAldredge]

If you don't know what SAP and/or ERP is you should not be posting on /.

Re:I for one...

[EdIII]

Dear God.... Thank You for introducing us to that online comic. It rocks :)

Re:I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

> The software sucked so badly, and I hated it so much, that whenever I was around our SAP consultants, I made a conscience effort to say 'Sap' instead of S-A-P every chance I got. :-)

You should also be sure to use the insult, "What a sap."

Re:I for one...

[mazarin5]

That means it's between midnight and noon.

Isn't everything? :)

Re:I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

SAP is how Lucifer interacts with our world.

I thought that was through Lotus Notes applications. They definitely emanate a creepy feeling, and nobody who used them kept his/her sanity.

Wow. I'm really doomed. I use both. Daily.

Re:I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

Close enough. ERP is 'enterprise resource planning', the basic idea of trying to see at head office what your organisation actually needs to buy. Imagine a store.

SAP is .. well, I don't know what it stands for. Treat it as a proper noun, it's the name of a big, idiosyncratic ERP/accounting system favored by CIOs because they get to write SAP experience on their resumes.

Re:I for one...

[kiwisteve]

Yes, this is exactly how it works. The only invoices that run smoothly through the system are the ones from SAP and the implementation partners.

Re:I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I'm convinced SAP saves big companies millions of dollars. They do so by losing invoices or making it so difficult for other companies to invoice them that these invoices never get paid. Companies using SAP have much higher payment aging than other companies.

I've always said that this is how companies that transition to SAP manage o make up for the insane consulting cost: not paying their suppliers because "the system has a slight problem right now"...

Re:I for one...

[Johnno74]

You missed Stop All Production

Sorry After Purchase

Re:I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

Smegma Almond Pies

Re:I for one...

[Fireshadow]

I thought it was Suck All Profits ?

Re:I for one...

[neomunk]

Software As Punishment

Re:I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because sap in German is derogatory. And SAP is an acronym. Sorry if the Germans are too Pedantic for a Slashdotter.

Re:I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've just been through my first sap project. During it I realized what sap stood for..

In the old days a sap is a cudgel that footpads used to hit their victims with before nicking their money.

Most SAP customers also end up with a headache and all their money stolen..

Re:I for one...

[amicusNYCL]

Isn't everything? :)

Only if you don't take the order into account.. if "midnight" is the start and "noon" is the end then the answer to your question is no.

Re:I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

sap in German is derogatory

I'm German, fairly literate, have never heard of a German word "sap", and I'm not alone.

Re:I for one...

[vivtho]

The correct way is

• If you're referring to the company or the product as a whole, then it's pronounced S-A-P.
• If you're referring to a component of the software, e.g. SAP HR, then it's pronounced sap, like 'tree sap'.

Just my $0.02.

Re:I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, what is ERP and what is SAP? Like, from a tree?

NEVER USE ACRONYMS WITHOUT DEFINING THEM!

Systemanalyse und Programmentwicklung. Does that help?

Re:I for one...

[dkf]

You missed Stop All Production

Seriously Annoying Programs

Re:I for one...

[Thaelon]

SAP.

ERP.

Re:I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

Send Another Paki

Re:I for one...

[Hognoxious]

3) Customize means "finish the code"

Wrong.

Hahahaha

[goldaryn]

Hahahaha

In response to Waste Management's complaint, SAP has said in part that the company failed to "timely and accurately define its business requirements" and did not supply "sufficient, knowledgeable, decision-empowered users and managers"

Not "decision-empowered".. good way of saying brainless lusers. I like it!

Re:Hahahaha

[TheRealMindChild]

And truly, that is probably what it was. They were being sold something and couldn't filter out the buzzwords. They thought they were getting X and they got Y. When it came time to show the cards, someone competent looks it over and says "Uh, dude, you just had no idea what you agreed to buy". It happens WAY too much.

Re:i had it

[Captain Splendid]

You chose...poorly.

Oh, oh, SAP

[Anonymous Coward]

SAP... liquid cement... the firm that sold ERP to CEOs and turned thriving firms into basket cases by forcing wholesale moves to slow, cumbersome, slow-motion systems controlled by an elite of take-it-up-the-ass-and-weep consultants and partners? The firm that pioneered the creation of Euro 1,250 "consultants" who were newbies with sociology majors that had done three months of BAP and knew less about software than a E-scoring CompSci major. The firm that pushed for software patents in Europe because they swallowed the cool aid and were too pussy to compete against FOSS? And finally someone sued them? Where do I donate to the attack fund? God, I *hate* SAP. Bastards, long overdue against the wall. Utter, utter bastards.

Re:Oh, oh, SAP

[Hognoxious]

Hi Larry. How's the yacht?

SAP has no copy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Any sofware company that cannot find a copy of something they produced for a customer is INCOMPETENT!

Re:SAP has no copy?

[Clandestine_Blaze]

Any sofware company that cannot find a copy of something they produced for a customer is INCOMPETENT!

This article talks about a Pre-Sale demo, which is usually where all of the problems occur. Most proof of concept demos done by sales consultants promise the world just to get the client to buy, then scope is reduced significantly. While the majority of sales consultants have some technical background, proof-of-concepts rarely take business flow into account, and generally show what the product can do out of the box.

This is why a lot of technical guys refer to the sales side as "the dark side" - in reference to how often the tech folks get thrown under the bus when the customer goes "Well your sales guy promised xyz to us, and you're only giving us x!"

There's no excuse for that.

Re:SAP has no copy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually that's why there is a contract and scopes of work. If your companies purchasing dept and contract lawyers are too dense to come up with this simple c.y.a. requirement they need to be canned.

Time for a car analogy. If I go to a Car lot and the salesmen shows me the top of the line model mustang with a Nitrous system and we get into th office and find I can only afford the 4 cylender version and I sign on the dotted line with the VIN of the 4 cylendar version I can't sue the salesmen because he showed me the Nitrous 'stang. It's my fault for not ponying up or making sure I was getting what I was signing for.

Re:SAP has no copy?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is actually a semi-optimistic occurrence. I think you're failing to mention the times when a PoC is shown which only mocks up the major functionality desired by the customer. It's not until they sign on the dotted line that Sales notifies Engineering that they need to produce what was promised.

"What's the big problem, you've got mock ups of how everything's supposed to look when you're done?!?"

Re:SAP has no copy?

[Maxo-Texas]

SAP has been replacing one of our systems for over a year now.

SAP feels a lot like fight club.

You don't say anything bad about SAP, or you are out the door.

Our management is going to be different, special, the one to actually implement SAP on budget in only 3 years.

Re:SAP has no copy?

[SgtChaireBourne]

...You don't say anything bad about SAP, or you are out the door...

That'll get you in the next round of downsizing to pay for the M$ and SAP licenses. God forbid you also have data showing the problems. That'll get you escorted to the parking lot.

Re:SAP has no copy?

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually know of a successful SAP implementation. The key factor was a project manager who went around kicking asses and actually checking up on the SAP consultants. When a consultant billed for 2 weeks to produce a project plan that was clearly a cut-and-paste job from another client (the client's name still appeared throughout the document) the PM said "FU, I'm not paying for this because you clearly didn't actually spend 80 hours on it" and fired him. The implmentation gone done on record time and under budget, but the other consultants were so insulted (ie: some threatened their gravy train) they would not work for the PM again.

Re:SAP has no copy?

[Maxo-Texas]

They also have a policy..
No one on the SAP project is to say anything about the project or raise any concerns to anyone outside the project including their normal supervisors and managers.
Breaking the policy is grounds for termination.

My bud at another company said they did this there too.. the result was that after about $300 million, it became clear it was a screwed up situation but management decided so much money had been spent that they should see it through. After 9 years they finally are close to finishing their 3 year project. He said they turned the corner at about 6 years but there were still a lot of missing pieces. They had 5 divisions. Our company has over 50.

For now, I'm avoiding it- if the economy gets bad, they've been set up as a separate company and can be cut loose. The people they let go were told, "this project has no need for you any longer" and "no you can't return to your old job, that's in a different company". I figure at year 3, if the economy is good, I'll angle to get on it.

I'm risking getting laid off less by keeping the tires on the car. I'm giving up a chance at picking up a hot new skill. But I'm also working 42 to 45 hour weeks instead of 50 to 55 hour weeks for the next three years.

Waste Management? uh, oh.

[Anonymous Coward]

Waste Management is headquartered about an hour from SAP America's headquarters in PA.

They also are also the subject of various mob-related rumors (as are all trash disposal companies), and have had a dubious string of CEO's come and leave under weird accusations of accounting fraud.

I wouldn't want to walk to my car late at night at SAP. That's all I'm sayin'.

Re:Waste Management? uh, oh.

[superdave80]

How the hell did trash disposal get so mobbed up? Did the first conversation go something like this:

Mob Boss: Ya know, it's great being in the booze, gambling, and beating the crap out of people business, but you know what I've always wanted to get a piece of...?
Mob Lackey: What's dat, boss?
Mob Boss: ...garbage collection. There's nuthin' more glamorous than telling people you work in garbage.
Mob Lackey (fearful for his life): Uh... yeah, yeah, great idea boss!

Re:Waste Management? uh, oh.

[Tmack]

What better way to make unfortunate evidence disappear?

Re:Waste Management? uh, oh.

[db32]

Aside from the obvious of trusted removal of things like stained rugs and strangely heavy "empty" barrels... There is also an incredible intelligence gathering piece. You know...the same reason that the authorities like digging through your trash for evidence and criminals like digging through your trash for useful information.

Re:Waste Management? uh, oh.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's big business and it's tied into communal politics. Need I say more?

Re:Waste Management? uh, oh.

[Anonymous Coward]

Think in terms of garbage collecting being a subset of the trucking business.

Re:Waste Management? uh, oh.

[Anonymous Coward]

Money laundering?

two rules

[Anonymous Coward]

#1 - if the evidence supports your side of the case, make sure you're the one who holds on to the evidence

#2 - if the evidence doesn't support your side of the case, make sure you're the one who holds on to the evidence

Re:two rules

[Hognoxious]

#3 - if you can't produce it in court, it doesn't exist.

HMMMM . . .

[arizwebfoot]

Do you suppose Waste Management is going to try and "trash" SAP?

Re:HMMMM . . .

[Archangel Michael]

SAP said they were selling trash, but in reality they were selling CRAP, which as you know is a whole other department.

My legal opinion

[Hognoxious]

Waste Management are a good old American business. Whereas SAP are a German (nazi+evil) corporation (super evil), who are European (communist).

We find in favor of the plaintiff!

Re:My legal opinion

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, yes, can't trust those nazi communists. :)

Isn't Waste Management known as sleezy

[docbrody]

Isn't Waste Management know to be a sleazy company? Old Mafia ties, etc.

Re:Isn't Waste Management known as sleezy

[Locke2005]

You gotta problem wid dat?

Re:Isn't Waste Management known as sleezy

[tsalmark]

They are both known to be Sleazy and Dirty. Dirty in different ways.

Re:Isn't Waste Management known as sleezy

[LaRoach]

Waste Management was caught cooking the books ala Enron, Worldcom, etc: http://www.sec.gov/news/headlines/wastemgmt6.htm

Re:Isn't Waste Management known as sleezy

[Epi-man]

Interesting, the link is for events from 1992-97, against former top officers, and is itself from 2002. Do you think the same people are still in charge? The corporation itself isn't necessarily sleezy, those who were running it were sleezy. It is entirely possible the "culture of corruption" still exists at the company, but I don't think this link really provides much evidence of that.

Re:Isn't Waste Management known as sleezy

[LaRoach]

Hence the word "was" in the post...

Re:Isn't Waste Management known as sleezy

[TheRealMindChild]

See my sig.

Re:Isn't Waste Management known as sleezy

[Anonymous Coward]

In other news, America used to be a country where slavery was okay!

Re:Isn't Waste Management known as sleezy

[Anonymous Coward]

Hard to know who to root for.

Waste Management has multiple felony convictions, and I've seen their corrupt culture up close. (The City of Omaha paid WM to run a recycling program. And WM was also getting paid to run the landfill, at a slightly higher rate per ton. Guess where the recyclables went.) I've worked in a lot of different corporations and, in my experience, the one thing that DOESN'T change is corporate culture.

How?

[Anonymous Coward]

How can you "go" missing? Missing is something you are or are not, not a place or activity. How, unless you are a bad marksman, or are on the prowl for young ladies, can you "go" missing?

Re:How?

[sexconker]

What if it's 2 AM, the seat's down, and you didn't turn on the light? That could cause one to go missing.

Re:How?

[Quothz]

How can you "go" missing? Missing is something you are or are not, not a place or activity. How, unless you are a bad marksman, or are on the prowl for young ladies, can you "go" missing?

Go crazy, then take a left at the second stop sign. Missing's right on the left. You can't miss it.

Courtney

[sexconker]

SAP. SAP get my presale product demonstration software package.

I am SAP.

Get me my presale product demonstration software package.

No. Wha ha ha!

Grr. I'll just get my own presale product demonstration software package through the pre-trial discovery process.

But the presale product demonstration software package was MISSING.

*BLAM!*

Failure to understand technology

[Locke2005]

In fact, Waste Management should have the demo in its possession, as it was transferred to the trash hauler's system in late 2005 and early 2006, according to SAP, which demanded in a May 14 filing that Waste Management turn it over. So, copying the software to a customer's computer automatically erases it from developer's computer? And now they want it back, 'cause that will automatically erase it from the customers computer? This dispute makes both sides look like morons, but looking like an idiot is going to have more more impact on SAP's business than on Waste Management's bottom line. No one expects a garbage man to be an IT expert. But if a software developer can't keep a copy of everything they give to a customer, how the hell can they be expected to maintain the software they distribute?

Re:Failure to understand technology

[PitaBred]

Keeping the POC (Proof Of Concept, AKA demo),which isn't software... it's more like a database tables and data transforms and such very specifically made for Waste Management and useless to almost anyone else, for over 3 years after you haven't heard anything from the client? Do you have any idea how much data that is, and how often people do POC's that go nowhere? Hell, even if it DOES go somewhere, the initial demo is either just a base point or completely thrown out and redone once the actual infrastructure of the company's data systems is encountered. It's entirely possible for them to have lost it, or just cleaned it out. Developing an SAP app demo isn't quite like coding a new text editor.

Re:Failure to understand technology

[Anonymous Coward]

No... Waste Management has it. When SAP trashed/lost it (maybe because of the lawsuit), it was "transferred" to a landfill.

Re:Failure to understand technology

[Anonymous Coward]

Keeping the POC (Proof Of Concept, AKA demo),which isn't software... it's more like a database tables and data transforms and such ...

By what definition are database tables and data transforms not software?

Re:Failure to understand technology

[mgblst]

It is like when I was downloading the ne acdc album of off someone, and noticed that he was downloading it from me as well. I messaged him and asked him what he was doing, he said "I'm getting back my ablum, asshole".

Re:Failure to understand technology

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the garbage men throwing the demo away makes perfect sense.

You know, gotta keep those trucks filled!

No, it really matters more to Waste Management

[bfwebster]

I'm not a lawyer, but..

Most software licensing agreements contain limitations of liability and monetary damages, usually limited to the amount paid by the customer. However, if the customer can demonstrate fraud, the customer has a chance to 'break' those limitation and go after additional damages (lost profits, cost of replacement, etc.). So if the demo exists and if it shows capabilities not found in the actual SAP implementation, WM might be able to use it to prove fraud -- assuming that the judge doesn't simply rule the demo as being "sales puffery" (i.e., salespersons are allowed a certain legal leeway in extolling the virtues of the product they're trying to sell).

Should be interesting. ..bruce..

Re:No, it really matters more to Waste Management

[geekoid]

Can ana ctual lawyer weigh in on the legal application of "Sales puffery"?

Re:No, it really matters more to Waste Management

[Anonymous Coward]

I could, but then I'd have to kill you. Intimate knowledge of the application of "sales puffery" is not to be bandied about lightly...

Re:No, it really matters more to Waste Management

[Xtifr]

IANAL, but Groklaw contains all sorts of useful links to on-line legal references, which is how I found this. HTH. HAND.

Re:No, it really matters more to Waste Management

[Anonymous Coward]

Five years of law school ought to be enough to comment on this. Basically, mere puffery is the giving of statements which are unqualified and should be seen as being basically, sales talk. eg "This washing powder will give you the whitest whites." or "This yacht will cut through the water like a knife through butter." If you make statements which are qualified, or which have testable claims such as "This washing powder will remove 99.9% of the germs in your clothes." or "This yacht will attain a maximum speed of 40 knots under 20 knot winds."

In the case of SAP, there are numerous things that could be said which are going to be puffery. For example, if they said "Our software will give you the best possible ERP for this price.", are you really expecting them to scour the world for competing products for you? Probably not.

Re:No, it really matters more to Waste Management

[ppanon]

For example, if they said "Our software will give you the best possible ERP for this price.", are you really expecting them to scour the world for competing products for you? Probably not.

That statement also doesn't exclude the possibility of a free open source ERP giving all or more of the same functionality for free.

If you use SAP your staff needs time and practice

[Anonymous Coward]

with the Software. As an end user at a subsidary of a fortune 500 company we went through a multip phased process of SAP taking over paper and other cludged systems. There were definitely growing pains like if you missed a field to generate a report it could bring could be a while before you got your session back. Little did most of the users know that you could bring up multiple sessions with a file menu option before you got started. 2 months in we all wanted to can SAP one year later we were more efficient at what we did and how we did it. Things like approvals and purchase reqs never got lost like they did before. We could hold plant maintenance accountable for work orders put in.

We were lucky in that our Information systems and accounting people were sharp and knew how to disseminate information. If they were average Joe's our SAP would have failed miserably.

Summary

[amicusNYCL]

WM trashed SAP's ERP.

How many things can SAP stand for?

[cavehobbit]

When I had the misfortune to get onto an SAP conversion project, after a while a few of us started thinking up things SAP stood for.

Sozialistische Arbeiter Programmierung
Shutup And Program
Stress And Pressure
Stocks And Profits
Stupid Ass Processing

I went back to mainframe after that. It's more open, less complicated, less prone to massive failures, easier to administer and code for.
After all, SAP is just a giant rip-off of CICS ported to a distributed environment.

Re:How many things can SAP stand for?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sanduhr Anzeige Programm Hourglass Display Program

Re:How many things can SAP stand for?

[Anonymous Coward]

Software Against People

Uh oh..

[Ecuador]

They are the zillionth company to find out that not only in Soviet Russia SAP ERP adapts YOU... and they are pissed about it. Don't tell me they actually expected software that would adapt to their own business model and integrate seamlessly with their operations?

Re:Uh oh..

[geekoid]

If that's what SAP claimed, then yes they should expect that. When that fails SAP should have the pants sued off them. Rinse, repeat until SAP stops lying.

SAP again?

[someyob]

I would hazard the vast majority of us have first hand knowledge of an SAP based enterprise system project gone amok (as I have). Some interesting ideas here http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/sap-watch/what%E2%80%99s-the-real-trend-in-failed-sap-projects/. I wouldn't necessarily blame the users all the time; in our case, it seems a combination of ill defined requirements, crazily feature rich software and consultants not unhappy when things drag out.

-1 Redundant

[Anonymous Coward]

over a failed ERP project

Is there any other kind?

Oh this is easy... it's on the net

[MickyTheIdiot]

It's just a fake BSOD.

Hello, I am S.A.P.

[geekoid]

Today we will have a few demonstration of our new product.
Afterwords, there will be cake.

Now read it again after the cake reference.

interesting

[hurfy]

I find it interesting that the demo is apparently a separate program instead of what they were getting with some preloaded scripts or something. Our demos for our accounting system was someone running the program we were going to buy and mostly doing what we asked. We still missed that an important feature was missing :( Hey, the 1980 computer system did it, the 1990 computer system did it, but forgot to check the 2004 system :/ That was in addition finding out how many of the things it does do actually cost a lot extra to do :(

Enterprise Software

[thectrain]

The real problem is... All "Enterprise" software sucks because of what they say it does. They try to come off as a nearly complete solution to your problem. 5 years down the road when you actually complete it, you could have written a very similar/better product from scratch. But they give an excellent sales pitch to people who dont know better, and of course they buy it. This happens when non-technical people runtechnical parts of the business. Just like you wouldn't have a Software Engineer running HR you shouldn't have a MBA choosing the foundation for your system.

Re:Enterprise Software

[PitaBred]

Yes, but technical people have consciences and morals, which means they wouldn't do very well in management.

Re:Enterprise Software

[geekoid]

Who do you think right that pile of crap known as SAP? technical people.

Proof tech people don't necessarily have a conscience or morals.

Things randomly disappearing...

[Cryacin]

In the "waste management" business?!? NO! Never!

Re:Things randomly disappearing...

[PopeRatzo]

Can someone please tell me what an "ERP" is? I had a hard day and I'm too tired to gazoogle it. Plus, if I were to google "ERP" I'd probably get twenty different things, plus the question: "Did you mean burp? And I'm tired of hollering at google ten times a day, "No, motherfucker, I didn't mean "The Black Crowes", I meant what I typed. If'n I'd meant "The Black Crowes" I'd have fucking well typed "The Black Crowes".

Then I am forced to stab myself repeatedly in the meaty part of the leg with a penknife.

Nobody wants that, right?

Re:Things randomly disappearing...

[slashtivus]

Enterprise Resource Planning. It's fancy scheduling software.

Re:Things randomly disappearing...

[jesseck]

In Manufacturing, ERP is "Enterprise Resource Planning"... such as knowing how much material you have, where it is, and if a specific order can be fulfilled. And a whole lot more.

Re:Things randomly disappearing...

[ikkonoishi]

Yeah sure. Here

Re:Things randomly disappearing...

[jsebrech]

It means "crappy software with a big name so we can ask you for a big pricetag". How they got it to spell out ERP I'll never know.

Re:Things randomly disappearing...

[noundi]

It means "crappy software with a big name so we can ask you for a big pricetag". How they got it to spell out ERP I'll never know.

Expensive Retarded Program, I believe.

Re:Things randomly disappearing...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's an excuse for managers not to walk around and check on things.

Re:Things randomly disappearing...

[Alpha830RulZ]

And ERP has morphed in meaning to mean enterprise management software, encompassing the planning/scheduling, finance/accounting, inventory/resource management, HR/personnel and core business process flows of the company.

They sure are good salesepeople.

[Trip6]

I know of several failed SAP implementations, each spending millions. It is big and bloated and requires tons of consulting - a vendor's dream. Yet, they dominate the market.

WM Has It

[Comatose51]

When SAP said that Waste Management has the evidence, they meant they throw it out in the trash so technically WM has it now.

Re:WM Has It

[TimSSG]

Exactly what I was thinking. Tim S

Into the round file

[Todd Knarr]

My guess at what happened: once SAP was done with the demo and left a copy with the customer, whoever was responsible for putting it together cleaned it up. It wasn't needed anymore, and document retention policies and the need to clean up file clutter both dictate it goes. On the WMI side, the techie who got the demo filed it away. It's not like a demo mock-up's going to help a developer. And again, between document retention policies and the general need to get rid of useless junk cluttering up the directories, it got deleted. And then months after that, the lawyers come around looking for it and it's not there.

This, BTW, is one of the reasons I don't like document retention policies that're designed to make sure things get deleted/destroyed. Sure they may get rid of evidence the other guy could use against you, but at the same time they get rid of evidence you could use to support your case if you end up in court. I normally consider all vendor communications to be "retain indefinitely", likewise all product documentation, specifications, etc.. At some point you will need to be able to look one of their salespeople in the eye and say "Yes, you did promise that and I've got the letter from you to prove it.".

Re:Into the round file

[Anonymous Coward]

It wasn't needed anymore, and document retention policies and the need to clean up file clutter both dictate it goes.

I don't have experience with a lot of different companies, but those I know of have document retention policies of a minimum of seven years. That's how long you need to keep most tax records. A surprising number of seemingly unrelated things can impinge upon the calculation of tax payable, so they err on the side of caution and keep it all.

Re:Into the round file

[Anonymous Coward]

I think along the same lines you do, and for the same reasons. I have seen MANY situations where people were desperately searching for files to support their company's position in a dispute (a few court cases, but mostly informal disputes). But I have NEVER had anyone congratulate me on getting rid of a file or message that could be a liability issue for the company. As we can see in this case, the inability to produce the information does NOT necessarily work in SAP's favor; it makes them look either incompetent or dishonest.

In any company with reasonably ethical management, there will be more documents IN FAVOR of the company's position than against. Systematically getting rid of it tends to undermine the company's position in any dispute, since there is a fairly high probability that the information would have been helpful. On the other hand, if your company consists of a bunch of crooks robo-calling the planet in the hope of selling bogus warranties, the retention policy is pretty much "delete on receipt."

Re:i had it

[RichardJenkins]

A classic Indiana Jones reference highlighting the folly of choosing something based on how shiny it is get moderated as troll whilst I can get modded insightful for spouting the first nonsensical bs that comes to mind? What's the world coming to!

Re:i had it

[Anonymous Coward]

"What's the world coming to!"

Word on the street says that the world is coming to pictures of your mom bumping uglies with a llama.

Project management 101:

[Zapotek]

http://lh4.ggpht.com/samuel.jack/SLvrV9QlOiI/AAAAAAAAAQQ/ajKR2-6Pmko/TreeSwingProjectManagement_thumb%5B3%5D.png?imgmax=800
No seriously, this was the first thing my Project Management professor showed us...

Re:Project management 101:

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know how old that strip is, but it or something very similar was pinned to the office wall in 1987 (Sheffield UK) pretty sure the roller coaster is a more recent addition, the version in the office was a photocopy

At least 22 years and some things never change.

it's me! I stole it!

[porky_pig_jr]

it's a single line of C code printing Hello World!

Like a bad dream come true

[Archfeld]

These 2 companies deserve each other like few in the world do... SAP sales folks ARE the KINGS of VAPO-Ware. They will promise ANYTHING in the "next release" and then re-assign any person responsible for making any claims of any type, stating that they are unavailable at this time. WM is one of the lowest of the low and has been tied to corruption and the MOB in more states than I can count on 2 hands. I am just sitting back hoping they will do each other in :D

Re:Like a bad dream come true

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, vapor-ware is SAP's main product! They probably showed them the "Waste Management" module and told them that thy could take advantage of a fiscal-year-end special offer if they signed the papers that day. Afterwards, you get a delivery date of 2011 (when the module gets developed) and a consulting team of 1.250 Euro/Day interns from a local partner !

Re:i had it

[Captain Splendid]

Are you sure you want to go on record as equating "hot, thick and hairy gay cock" as shiny?

Half-Life 2?

[Samah]

The trash hauler has said SAP used "rigged and manipulated" demonstrations during sales presentations.

Reminds me somewhat of the E3 demo of Half-Life 2, and Valve's claim of "these are not scripted sequences."

For people who don't remember, there's a point in the demo where the player walks into a room and shuts (and barricades) a door. The combine guy on the outside kicks the door open. I personally played that demo when it was leaked, and I stood outside of the "unscripted room" and watched the door magically explode inward with no-one there to kick it, as the combine just stood there and stared at me.

Never have coke in a Italian Butcher Shop

[Anonymous Coward]

The SAP guy goes over to the WM guys place for a little conversation after hours and, whatdayaknow, goes missing.

Christopher handled the "garbage contact problem..."

I am SAP Technical consultant and can tell you:

[Anonymous Coward]

- there is big difference between capabilities of the SAP suite of applications, its subset the customer decides to buy and subset of that customer pays consultants to implement;
- it is very frequent conversation in all SAP implementation projects "I saw in presentation SAP can do this and that" - "Yes, but the scope of the implementation does not include that and the scope was negotiated and approved by your management based on the budget available";
- all SAP implementations result in a big change the way companies operate. At some places corporate management is so poor they can't even remotely manage such change. It is pretty much guaranteed that SAP implementation in such company (as any other large and complex project) will fail. One of the ways such corporate management decides to save their asses when it becomes obvious that money is spent and there is no result - is by blaming the software vendor or the consulting partner.

Re:I am SAP Technical consultant and can tell you:

[Anonymous Coward]

I am SAP Technical consultant

I don't doubt it for a minute: The poor English is a dead giveaway.

ob joke

[g2devi]

Upon dying, Bill Gates went to final judgement.

St. Peter said to his, "Now Bill, you have done some good things, and you have done some bad things. It has been decided to let you decide where you want to go".

So, Bill takes a look at hell and sees these beautiful women running around, in 30 degree Celsius temperature, on beautiful beaches.

Then he took a look at heaven and it was nice, you know harps and singing and worship and stuff like that.

So he said to St. Peter that he would like to go to hell.

About a week later, St. Peter went down to hell to check on Bill. There he saw him, neck deep in molten sulfur, being whipped by demons.

He said to St. Peter, "What happened to all the beautiful women, and the beaches and the 30 degree Celsius temperature?"

Peter replied, "That was just demo."

Explanation of acronyms

[ProfMobius]

Is it possible to have a more complete short version of the article ? I don't have a fraking clue about this is all about.

Waste Management sued SAP in March 2008 over a failed ERP project

What is Waste Management ? a company ? what is SAP ? what is ERP (Wikipedia give me a full list of results, with "Erotic Role-playing, a sexual form of Role-playing" among them, but i guess this is not what it is about) ? Where is this story located ?

Remember that you have audiance which is not from the US and sometimes don't have a clue on what you are talking about.

Re:Explanation of acronyms

[kiwisteve]

Waste Management (a big US company) sued SAP (largest accounting software company in the world) in March 2008 over a failed ERP (accounting software) project. Yawn.

Re:Explanation of acronyms

[Culture20]

What is Waste Management ? a company ? what is SAP ? what is ERP (Wikipedia give me a full list of results, with "Erotic Role-playing, a sexual form of Role-playing" among them, but i guess this is not what it is about) ? Where is this story located ? Remember that you have audiance which is not from the US and sometimes don't have a clue on what you are talking about.

Thank You! I am from the US, and I have NO idea what any of this is. It's like a perfect April Fools' day joke; tons of comments that make no sense, joking like SAP and Waste Management are household names. ?

Re:Explanation of acronyms

[kiwisteve]

Who these companies are and what the software does is not really the point of the story, its the fact that both of these HUGE companies have "lost" a very large software program that could have proved one or other or both of them are liable to pay one or the other or somebody else huge sums of money (or not). Saying that however, the word "SAP" in the story has triggered a lot of comments from people who use or make a living from installing and customising it. (Red rag, bull etc). Most of the feedback is negative because SAP is widely condemned as a POS (hope you can work that one out for yourself). And to be fair if the story had been about any other big ERP player like Oracle Financials you would have gotten the same reaction. The fact is that ERP addresses very difficult problems, every company works differently, every implementation requires planning, analysis, customisations, etc - there is no one model that fits all. Despite what you read here not all ERP implementations are failures, most of them are not, or SAP and Oracle would have been unprofitable and out of business years ago.

"As much or more"

[Adrian Lopez]

"And SAP, for its part, says it has 'searched extensively' for the system and wants it 'as much or more' as Waste Management, since it 'will help SAP disprove WM's fraud claim.'"

Hmm... "I want police to find my wife as much or more as the District Attorney, since she will help disprove the DA's claim that I killed her and neatly disposed of her body."

Re:"As much or more"

[mjwx]

Hmm... "I want police to find my wife as much or more as the District Attorney, since she will help disprove the DA's claim that I killed her and neatly disposed of her body."

Hans, they're letting you post on /. from prison.

Anyone who's used SAP knows

[Anonymous Coward]

it stands for Severe Anal Penetration.

I'm glad I'm not alone

[sxltrex]

I too work at a multi-billion $ per year company, and our executives also bought the SAP sales pitch hook, line, & sinker. What a stinking pile of crap. I have never seen a worse user interface. The saddest part is, no-one knows of a successful implementation, yet all of the executives who buy this shit think "my company will be the first!" They also think paying hundreds of millions of dollars to firms like Deloitte will fix everything. Dumbasses.

One of my co-workers invented SAP: The Board Game. Every card says "Lose a Turn."

Re:I'm glad I'm not alone

[Inda]

Hey, that's unfair on SAP! They are the world market and technology leader, of the world, of the universe. They accelerate business innovation ffs.

You know when you select text in an application? You right click for a context menu? What options would you expect at the top?

Undo, maybe?

Cut, Copy and Paste? Most definitely!

How about: None of the above?

Where do you think Cut, Copy and Paste sits in the menu?

That's right, nowhere. It's keyboard shortcuts or forget it.

Now some of you, like me, enjoy using keyboard shortcuts. That's good, apart from they don't work on dialog box buttons.

Don't get me started on the back button, up button and stop button...

Forgot to click the save button? Tough shit, your data is lost.

Re:I'm glad I'm not alone

[rah1420]

Forgot to click the save button? Tough shit, your data is lost.

And by all that's holy, don't be in a dialog with unsaved data, and go to the command box and use "/n" as a prefix to leave the current transaction and launch your new command (like typing "/nWE02".) Because it will happily throw away all unsaved data with zero warning before launching the new program.

Don't ask me how I know this.

SAP the Board Game

[sxltrex]

SAP: The Board Game.

Every card says "Lose a Turn."

Re:SAP the Board Game

[_Sprocket_]

SAP: The Board Game.

Every card says "Lose a Turn."

Actually - once in awhile you find a card that reads: "You hire an expensive SAP contractor! Draw another card!"

Re:i had it

[Koiu Lpoi]

You bastard. You made me click "parent" just to see what you were replying to.

WHO/WHAT?

[Anonymous Coward]

What is SAP? Who made it?
Who is Waste Management?
Both the summary and the article ASSUME people know what each of those is,
and trying to google for such generic terms is useless

Ever listen to the Bloodhound Gang?

[jeric23]

Do you even know what a Wawa is?

Alright, look. They are two companies that have US headquarters in South-Eastern Pennsylvania. To summarize based on the song reference, SAP is cop rock and Screech, WM is lazer removed tasmanian devil tattoos. SAP showed WM some third string demo written by puck. WM is really special peoples club, so they believed SAPs irreverent top ten list of features.

I could go on, but basically SAP is the heart with no name airbrushed on a licence plate of a Subaru that was registered in Pennsylvania.

True what they say, WM is zima, they are barf, they take cinderblock yard art. Of course they are baldwin brothers, not the good one but the others.

Do you even know what a Wawa is, girl? ...

They in the state of P f'n A.

SAP actually works pretty well

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in a company that runs SAP, it actually works pretty well for us and I've not had this bad experience that some people describe above.

Perhaps it's because I work with the logistics part of it, a fairly old and well defined part of the system, but generally the software works and lets the company run fine.

It's certainly better than some of the other systems I've worked with in the past and I sort of like the mainframey 70ties kind of feeling that I get from the software.

But then again i probably count as biased since i'm part of this evil SAP consultant priesthood described earlier - but really, isn't it like this for any kind of complex software?

Re:SAP actually works pretty well

[Alpha830RulZ]

but really, isn't it like this for any kind of complex software

Yup. Cf. Oracle financials, or MSFT Great Plains/Dynamics.

Complicated software is complicated to put in. The business process side is as complicated as the technical side. The complexity and configurability of the packages makes it hard to test out customer specific functionality until you get to the actual implementation, so a lot of implementation consists of configure, find bug, get patch from vendor. Repeat until satisfied or out of budget.

SAP: Send Another Payment

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had the misfortune of working with SAP for a few years now, and I can honestly say that I can't imagine a bigger waste of time, money, and resources. Here's what you get when you buy SAP: Annual licensing fees - per user, proprietary software that gathers all of your company's data (poorly) and doesn't allow you to take it out, a database backend that has tens of thousands of tables - all cryptically named, a worthless, ancient looking user interface that doesn't work very well and is confusing to even the most technical of users, a proprietary COBOL-like programming language that is cryptic, a help site that forces you to login over and over again - and then has poorly written documentation that doesn't help.

Any time you are tasked with evaluating vendor software, use Google and see what help and/or user groups are available. If you can't get to the help pre-sale, you won't be able to get to it post-sale, either.

Here's a perfect example of the suckitude that is SAP. In order to use their software, you need to attend their training - apparently, their developers never bothered to read "About Face" or any other book on UI design. You have to pay $3000 to attend a 5-day course in the US. For your $3K, you get to share a computer with another SAP customer (sucker), and a 3" binder containing printouts of the slides. They won't give you the electronic documentation - apparently "searching" is a concept that SAP has yet to master. Don't even think about getting the training data and playing with it once you get back - they won't give it to you. One good thing about the training is listening to your fellow colleagues in SAP-hell bitch about how awful the software is, and why won't it do even the most basic of tasks without several support tickets.

There are two things SAP does really well - their sales force is top-notch. There is no way they could be in business in a competitive marketplace. Secondly, they are really terrific in gathering licensing fees for every single thing that you ought to be able to do with your software.

Pronunciation of SAP

[Rocketship Underpant]

Well, since it's a German company, the correct pronunciation would be "zap". :)

babies

[Anonymous Coward]

I could write them a full blown system for 20% of what that piece of crap company SAP is charging and it would perform 10x better.

Beware the SAP Kool-Aid

[motherpusbucket]

The company I used to work for implemented SAP. As a part of the indoctrination, it was taboo to call it 'sap', as in tree sap. S.A.P. was the only acceptable terminology. Calling it 'sap' was more fitting, as it 'saps the life out of you'. In this case 'Waste Management' is a bit of an oxymoron.

Pre-sale demos are always awesome!

[elguevote]

SAP will do anything and bring any number of expert in your industry for the pre-sale demos... hell comes after you sign the papers... Not even Gil Grissom will find the missing demo

Rummy

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm, another case of a missing WMD-emo?

Has anyone finished their SAP implementation?

[sglines]

Is it just me but could someone point to any successful SAP implementations. I've never seen one.