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The Myth of the Mathematics Gender Gap

Coryoth writes "The widely held belief that there is disparity in the innate mathematical abilities of men and women has been steadily whittled down in recent years. The gender gap in basic mathematics skills closed some time ago, and recently the gap in high school mathematics has closed up as well, with as many girls as boys now taking high school calculus. Newsweek reports on a new study published in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that begins to lay to rest the remaining argument that it is at the highest levels of mathematics that the innate differences show. Certainly men dominate current academia, with 70% of mathematics Ph.D.s going to men; however that figure is down from 95% in the 1950s. Indeed, while there remain gaps in achievement between the genders, the study shows that not only are these gaps closing, but the size of the gap varies over differing cultures and correlates with the general degree of gender inequality in the culture (as defined by World Economic Forum measures). In all, this amounts to strong evidence that the differences in outcomes in mathematics between the genders is driven by sociocultural factors rather than innate differences in ability."

588 comments

  1. Ok I can't resist by Critical+Facilities · · Score: 5, Funny

    Certainly men dominate current academia, with 70% of mathematics Ph.D.s going to men; however that figure is down from 95% in the 1950s. Indeed, while there remain gaps in achievement between the genders, the study shows that not only are these gaps closing, but the size of the gap varies over differing cultures and correlates with the general degree of gender inequality in the culture (as defined by World Economic Forum measures).

    Of course, the study was done by a team of female mathematicians/statisticians, so we really can't trust the results.

    I'm kidding, don't flame me.

    1. Re:Ok I can't resist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, after all these years of being taught that 5 inches is really 8, women no longer have any standing in anything math related. It's simply not their fault.

    2. Re:Ok I can't resist by TeknoHog · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But.. but.. correlation is not causation!!! It's impossible to tell if the gender of these researchers had any causal effect.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    3. Re:Ok I can't resist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course we can't trust them. I've found not one, but two people on the internet that say so. See http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/math2.htm/ and http://motls.blogspot.com/2008/07/janet-hyde-boys-girls-in-math-not.html/.

    4. Re:Ok I can't resist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, there there my little 5 inch man. (*hugs*) You go right on believing that. So cute.

    5. Re:Ok I can't resist by WaywardGeek · · Score: 1

      I'm kidding, don't flame me.

      There's no protection on slashdot! I hereby flame you to a burnt crisp!

      I do not believe there are differences between the sexes in innate ability in mathematics, or advanced algorithms coding. I do believe there are innate emotional differences. Many women programmers I've known have gone into management and roles that deal with customers, for example. Those who prefer the anti-social life of a hard-core mathematician or programmer are more commonly guys.

      --
      Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
    6. Re:Ok I can't resist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a chemistry graduate student at UW Madison(where the researchers are working), and one of the researchers gave a talk to our department several months ago about her preliminary work. She listed 9 collaborators, and all were women.

      Since I'm a coward, I didn't ask her about this during the Q&A portion of her talk, but I did ask about this privately at the reception after wards. She responded without a sense of irony that men just didn't seem interested in her field of research. I didn't have the guts to reply back with, "Sort of like chicks and math, huh?"

    7. Re:Ok I can't resist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But.. but.. correlation is not causation!!

      True...but if someone on your street dies mysteriously every time Angry Joe The Maniac is seen strolling down it and only when Angry Joe The Maniac walks down it, man I'd be damn sure to lock my doors and windows if I ever saw Angry Joe The Maniac walking down it.

    8. Re:Ok I can't resist by fractoid · · Score: 1

      This is exactly the point I was making when a careless click ate my post. I don't believe in any innate difference in ability between men and women when it comes to maths - the few women I've seen in 'hard' sciences tend to excel. There's most certainly a difference in interest though - which is why the gender balance is so skewed.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    9. Re:Ok I can't resist by BetterThanCaesar · · Score: 1

      Obviously your gender will depend on which math problems you're confronted with.

      --
      "Stop failing the Turing test!" -- Dilbert
    10. Re:Ok I can't resist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      IANAJTM.

    11. Re:Ok I can't resist by netstv · · Score: 1

      Of course, the study was done by a team of female mathematicians/statisticians, so we really can't trust the results. I'm kidding, don't flame me.

      That's REALLY funny! I just spit coffee all over my screen!

  2. ...or maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    we've just beaten men down so much that we've lowered the bar on everything?

    1. Re:...or maybe by snowraver1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Really, I thought it was that Science is so watered down now, that it no longer really interests anyone...

      Science should be exciting, and excitement attracts young men.

      --
      Copyright 2010. All rights reserved. This comment may not be copied in any way including, but not limited to caching.
    2. Re:...or maybe by Grishnakh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Science should be exciting, and excitement attracts young men.

      Nope, ease and money attracts young men in American culture now. Math is neither easy nor high-paying. So young men go into things like sports and multi-level marketing instead.

    3. Re:...or maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      excitement attracts young men.

      Whereas women revel in repetition and boredom?

      Give me a break. Some people get excited about science. Most do not. This is true of men and women.

    4. Re:...or maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Women tend to gravitate towards fields which there is a degree of socializing, such as education, medicine (Regular and veterinary), and communications.

      Men tend to gravitate towards either exciting fields, or fields which they feel will be financial rewarding.

      This is statistically backed up. This is well understood. This does not mean there are no counterexamples. There is a definite difference between the genders, and I don't understand why people feel we should artificially shoehorn people into career paths they don't want, in order to achieve 'balance'. What's equally baffling is that, despite Females in Veterinary College outnumbering males by 4 to 1 (!), nobody seems to be decrying that we need more males in that field...

      Let people choose what they want to do. Stop trying to 'fix' it.

    5. Re:...or maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Science should be exciting, and excitement attracts young men.

      As does your mom.

    6. Re:...or maybe by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Let people choose what they want to do. Stop trying to 'fix' it.

      But we need more female nerds! Who else can we possibly relate to?

    7. Re:...or maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is, when men gravitate towards fields which are more financially rewarding, women start to complain that they're not paid as much.

      But compare the work environment in a paper mill recausticizer to a classroom and tell me the people working at the paper mill don't deserve their wages.

    8. Re:...or maybe by datababe72 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'd love to see the studies you claim make this a well understood fact.

      I suspect the truth of the matter is that this is a possible explanation that has become popular, but without any rigorous work being done to see if this is true- and if it IS true, whether women choose certain fields because of some innate difference in preferences determined by biology or for some other reason, like the fact that being discriminated against and subjected to insulting comments at every step of your career is enough to drive many reasonable people to choose a different career.

      No one is decrying the disparity in number of women and men in Vet school because there is no evidence that men are being kept out of Vet school due to discrimination. Show me some evidence of discrimination, and I'll be right behind you in arguing that this should be corrected. Heck- I'll even take you seriously if you can find me a male Vet student who has heard things like "it must be nice to be a man so that you can win scholarships" or "I'm sorry, I just don't think men make as good vets as women" or "I'll bet he slept with the TA to get that grade." Yes- I have heard comments similar to both of those as a woman in science. The few women who stick it out in math probably have even worse stories. Thankfully, my experience with the overt sexism displayed in those comments has declined as I have advanced in my career- but there is plenty of less obvious sexism still out there.

    9. Re:...or maybe by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      No, but some law and medical schools try to keep 50/50 balances. So where they used let in underqualified women, now they have to let in underqualified men to achieve that.

    10. Re:...or maybe by demi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      These career path selections are never made in a vacuum, either. If you're interested in two or three career paths, and one is full of sexist bullshit and one is not, more women may go into a second choice.

      --
      demi
    11. Re:...or maybe by dollargonzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think the issue has little to do with trying to equalize the balance of men and women so much as equalizing the balance in the opportunities to pursue the fields that people want. I think that the general agreement is that (especially since the percentages have been changing quite dramatically in recent decades) women don't have the same opportunity as men do. There are various studies showing that women make less than men for the same jobs, and this is blatant discrimination. I don't think anyone is arguing that men have less opportunities in veterinary medicine (although I think there is some framing that goes one as I mentioned below).

      This reminds me of the way orchestra auditions have changed over time (described in "Blink"). Before, candidates would play in front of the judges and the judges would decide-- seems harmless enough. However, women have been consistently under-represented in orchestras, and especially on instruments deemed "better" for men (e.g. french horn). Now, candidates perform behind a curtain, so that the judges can't see the candidates, only hear them. Almost overnight, the number of women skyrocketed. I think it's essentially the same thing with women in math and science. People are predisposed to think that men are better than women at certain tasks/professions (even if it's subconscious) and this is reflected in the number of women we see in various industries. I don't think anyone is really immune from this, and in math and science, I think the framing effect is rather strong. Just read some of the blogs of women in science (e.g. http://scienceblogs.com/isisthescientist/) and you'll see that there is still an opportunity gap.

      Also, it's not entirely the fault of men. I think women have almost just as much to do with the problem. From mothers telling their daughters they're not smart enough to do science to an example from aforementioned blog: Isis took her toddler to daycare and the caretaker asked what she did; she said "I work at the hospital" and the response was "oh, a lot of the other mommies are nurses too." This does not help the problem...

      --
      BSD is for people who love UNIX. Linux is for those who hate Microsoft.
    12. Re:...or maybe by verbalcontract · · Score: 1

      Women tend to gravitate...

      Men tend to gravitate...

      This is statistically backed up. This is well understood.

      [citation needed]

    13. Re:...or maybe by Alexandra+Erenhart · · Score: 2, Informative

      Oh, if I had mod points I'd give one to you, because what you say is completely true. I've lived some of that discrimination and predisposition against me for being a woman in the math and physics fields. Of course I like to prove everybody wrong so if I have to work twice as much to achieve that, I'll do it just to rub their own words in their faces. I think that's what has motivated me the most when it comes to science. Science itself is very interesting to me, but proving everybody wrong is priceless :).

      And I always thought that females were conditioned by society to not to be interested in the hard science fields. I have yet to see how much influence does environment and culture have, compared to the fact of having a XX chromosome, when it comes to math.

    14. Re:...or maybe by cha5on · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I call bullshit.

      From TFA:

      In both cases, countries with as many or more girls at the upper extreme tend to be those with the greatest gender equality, such as Germany and the Netherlands. . . . If the differences were innate, they should show up in every culture.

    15. Re:...or maybe by Starcub · · Score: 1

      Women tend to gravitate towards fields which there is a degree of socializing, such as education, medicine (Regular and veterinary), and communications. Men tend to gravitate towards either exciting fields, or fields which they feel will be financial rewarding.

      That certainly used to be the case in my parents generation. However, I've noted more interest in crossing the traditional roles by the opposite sexes in my own life time. I'd say that people in contemporary society have been engineered (physically and psychologically) with a purpose towards eliminating those traditional distinctions.

    16. Re:...or maybe by Langolier · · Score: 1

      Perhaps women who are good at logical reasoning and details go into better paying fields than mathematics and the sciences, such as law and management. That was the theory put forward by a blog post I read, which suggested that some of the discrepancy that reappears at the PhD level in mathematics, computing, and the sciences may be because men are foolishly seduced into spending years getting a PhD and working in academia by the ideas of the prestige, status, excitement, and importance of this research. A woman with the same skills and general interests might be more realistic, and make the much better paying choice of a successful law or business career. I tried to find the blog that made this point, but could not. It seemed quite likely to me though. The same skills that make someone a good mathematician or programmer, would make them an outstanding lawyer or manager, as long as they have reasonable people skills. Perhaps a study of the careers of skilled undergraduate math majors, of both genders, would indicate if people are just making more (women) or less (men) rational choices about their future paths after a math B.S.

      --
      Share. Until it becomes uncomfortable. Or at least a little.
    17. Re:...or maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "it must be nice to be a man so that you can win scholarships" or... "I'll bet he slept with the TA to get that grade."

      Read up on evolutionary psychology. It makes no evolutionary sense for females to give preference to males in such situations, but it does make sense for males to give preference to females in the mirror situations. I am making no value judgements here. I am just pointing out that for real differences between the sexes reasons, the discrimination would not be likely to take that specific form, so your analysis may be flawed.

    18. Re:...or maybe by datababe72 · · Score: 1

      I won't argue with you about whether or not a lonely female TA might choose to extract sex from one of her students in exchange for a grade. I'll just take your statement as written and say: propose a reasonable way in which anti-male discrimination in Vet school might manifest itself.

      Frankly, I'm at a loss.

      Which supports my initial point.

    19. Re:...or maybe by mrmeval · · Score: 1

      "Math is tough" --Barbie the Bimbo

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
    20. Re:...or maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmmm. Math is not high paying???

      I am SO laughing at that statement right now.

    21. Re:...or maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stereotypes...

    22. Re:...or maybe by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Compared to football stars and celebrities, no, math isn't very high-paying.

      Compared to serving coffee, yes, it is high-paying, but it also requires a lot of time, dedication, and hard work to get to that high-paying status, and Americans aren't interested in doing something that requires a lot of dedication unless it'll make them multimillionaires. They'd rather settle for being a barista.

    23. Re:...or maybe by kklein · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Also, it's not entirely the fault of men. I think women have almost just as much to do with the problem.

      I don't know how I will be modded for this, but yes.

      Statistics on child-rearing consistently show that women do the bulk of it (not a value judgement; that's what the numbers show). In my own case, my mom has more education than my dad, and I would say their relationship is pretty equal (if not tipped toward my mother in most things), but yes, she is the one who raised me and taught me values about the world, etc. My dad wasn't absent or anything, but he was the guy who taught me how to do stuff--build things, fix things, make bad puns. It seems that this is the norm, from the sociological data I've seen.

      How is it, then, that women find themselves the victim of "social gender roles?" Men, I think, in a very real sense, do not make society. Women do. Women raise kids and instill values in them; men's behavior is almost entirely based on doing things that will score and keep women. If mothers raised children with egalitarian values and young, fertile women did not hook up with guys who had sexist ideas, guys would fall into line almost immediately. Think how quickly the American image of men changed from "strong and silent" to "soft and sensitive" in the 90s. We were told that's what gets girls, and next thing you know, guys are bawling over every damn little thing. Eventually this started annoying women and there was a backlash in recent years, asking where all the "real men" (look at that choice of adjectives, ladies) went, and guys of the current young generation aren't so weepy as we Gen-Xers were. Guys do what they are told.

      Again, in my own case, every time I run into a sexist idea I may have, I think "hmm, where did that come from?" and I remember being taught it by my smart, well-educated, empowered mother.

      I think women have a lot to do with the problem, and can do a lot more than men can about it, in the long run. Guys are puppets.

      Finally, I also have to echo someone else's comment above: Just let people choose what they like. I want to be sure that people are all given equal opportunities so that they can do that, but I don't think that's going to lead to 50/50 gender representation in every field, and that's okay!

    24. Re:...or maybe by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Money always attracted nearly all men. A good definition of "geek" is someone whose interests override their need for money.

      But the ease thing... yeah. American culture right now can go die. Exactly when America should be reinvesting in making things and in R&D, everyone just figures that a bit more management can make it all work again.

      I have a new slogan for the business world: "If you're not in production, research, or development, you're in overhead."

    25. Re:...or maybe by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Money always attracted nearly all men. A good definition of "geek" is someone whose interests override their need for money.

      What's funny is that there's plenty of "geeky" jobs that pay quite well these days. Engineers generally make pretty good money, though they need to be prepared for a sudden layoff with the way many companies operate now. But still, it's a lot more money than working at the mall, or even most other jobs requiring a college degree. But Americans don't want to bother because "it's too hard!" or "it's too boring". (Of course, if someone is bored by technical things, I'd rather they didn't go into engineering, but them being bored by it is frequently a product of how they're raised.)

      But the ease thing... yeah. American culture right now can go die. Exactly when America should be reinvesting in making things and in R&D, everyone just figures that a bit more management can make it all work again.

      Yep, everyone wants to be a manager, but no one wants to do the actual work. They all think we can all be managers, while all the work gets done offshore by teams in other countries.

    26. Re:...or maybe by Mr_eX9 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for promoting gender roles/stereotypes. Acknowledging "counterexamples" does not change the fact you are stereotyping men and women as acting in certain ways and having distinct preferences on the basis of their sex.

    27. Re:...or maybe by cptnapalm · · Score: 3, Informative

      "There are various studies showing that women make less than men for the same jobs, and this is blatant discrimination."

      Are those the same studies that also show that women at the same jobs work fewer hours per week, take more time off, drop down to part time more often and retire earlier?

      Women do, indeed, make up the bulk of new vets, but the gender switch may have the odd effect of sharply reducing the number of active vets in the future. There are already shortages of vets for farm animals.

    28. Re:...or maybe by hackstraw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd love to see the studies you claim make this a well understood fact.

      I'm not going to do a cited paper, so give me some latitude here with some well understood facts.

      Its nice to believe that there is some equal playing ground in life, but its the differences between people that make things interesting. This perennial debate over the sexes being the same is quixotic. All sex based species have differences between the sexes for survival of the species. Humans have not evolved any more than the animals that they have domesticated. Dogs still bury bones in the corner of a carpeted room because its in their genes to do so. Cats kill birds and bring them home even though they have plenty of food because its in their genes. Dogs are not cats.

      Humans are not genetically different from the hunters and gathers from around 100,000 years ago. Meaning they are not any smarter, even though some of them know how to do partial differential equations and some don't. In humans, its the males that typically did the hunting and females did the child rearing and gathering. Female humans have wider hips for giving birth which limits their ability to run and catch prey which is needed for protein in their diet. Hunting abilities gave men better spacial abilities, the ability to plan and execute a plan, and also men have a much greater upper body strength and lung capacity. These are well understood facts for anyone who knows a little about human evolution or biology. Gathering abilities enable women to have better periphery short range vision (eg, why they can find things in the refrigerator that were right in front of the man's face!).

      To say that women and men are the same is nonproductive because by definition they are different.

    29. Re:...or maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...There are various studies showing that women make less than men for the same jobs, and this is blatant discrimination.

      And there are also various studies that show that this is often because women are unassertive when it comes to requesting a raise or negotiating over salary.
      Women are also shorter on average and there are studies that show that tall men are paid and promoted more on average than shorter men and (I assume) women.

      There being differences does not immediately imply that there is discrimination. Correlation is not causation.

    30. Re:...or maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      in my experience, people who say this type of thing have never actually been in the field and "thing they hear" are actually "things they would expect to hear"

    31. Re:...or maybe by ChatHuant · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There are various studies showing that women make less than men for the same jobs, and this is blatant discrimination

      I haven't seen those studies, so I don't know what methodology they're using. I have seen numbers like 70% bandied about (women being paid 70% of the amount men get for equal work).

      So my question is: if that's true, why would any businesses bother hiring men at all? If you can get the same work by hiring just women and paying them 30% less (or even 10%) you have a crushing advantage over the competition, especially in low margin businesses. I can't believe all employers (including women business owners and hiring managers) are uniformly sexist. I'd expect the market to force the equalization of pay to work. So why the contradiction?

    32. Re:...or maybe by schrodingers_rabbit · · Score: 0

      According to an article in Education Resources Information Center (ED445192), there is no difference in career preference between men and women. Additionaly, a New York Times article hosted on the Stanford University website found no difference in the performance of men and women in a mathematical competitions. Furthermore, many females I know, including myself, wish to pursue a career in science or math. However, I would be happy to see your statistics.

      --
      #Computers do not appreciate sarcasm
    33. Re:...or maybe by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Engineers generally make pretty good money, though they need to be prepared for a sudden layoff with the way many companies operate now.

      You're at least partially right. Even back in 2005: "High school and college students considering their futures know that work as a scientist is morally nasty, brutally alienating and financially insecure."

    34. Re:...or maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. I had no intention of contradicting you, only pointing out that your specific example sounded silly. Setting up strawmans when you have a good argument is a bad argumentation strategy. ^_^

      I do know one person in vet school (who happens to be male), and I have never heard of sexism in that field. As this is the same person who I have heard about evolutionary psychology from the most, I suspect I would have if there were anything to say.

    35. Re:...or maybe by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Science != engineering. They're totally different fields. You might as well compare high school teachers and college professors.

      Science, in the USA, is a pretty lousy field to get into. Engineering, OTOH, while not a panacea, does pay pretty well (it's not hard to get to six figures with experience), and there's plenty of openings. While I have been laid off a couple of times in the past few years, I found it quite easy to find new jobs in the same area, and got a big pay raise each time. Since there's not enough experienced engineers to go around, there's a lot of demand (even now). The key, however, is to make sure you have the experience employers want since everyone wants someone who can start contributing right away and doesn't want to take time for training.

      But yeah, science is a horrible field, unless you have a morbid interest in doing tests of useless pharmaceuticals on live animals or something. There's very few places for scientists to work, mainly pharma and a little government stuff like NASA, and the pay is terrible. You'd make more money working at the mall most likely. And of course, a lot of it (like the pharma stuff) is very morally questionable. The lucky scientists get to work at NASA, but what if you don't manage to get a job there? Maybe you could settle for a research position with a university paying about $20k.

    36. Re:...or maybe by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      The key, however, is to make sure you have the experience employers want since everyone wants someone who can start contributing right away and doesn't want to take time for training.

      Which is a self-creating problem of not wanting to pay for entry-level workers.

      But btw, the article I linked was about engineering, not science. And I'm a Comp Sci, so I figure I can go any way.

    37. Re:...or maybe by reason · · Score: 1

      Because the perceived value of women's work is lower, which is part of the reason they get paid less.

    38. Re:...or maybe by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      I call BS on a study that looks at test scores, (seemingly) for high school students, and says that the more women are in the 99% percentile so it's cultural.

      that is idiotic. I was in the top 99th percentile my entire life in math (well, before college). Even in the intro college courses I was at the very top , but there were others. when we hit hte high level maths (proofs, abstract algebra, etc) I was trounced, just so absolutely outpaced it wasn't even close.

      When you talk about the 99th percentile for high school math and try to draw some sort of line talking about those people who are actually at the top fo the math field, you are basically a moron.

      what you care about when talking about math geniuses isn't the 99th percentile. you are looking for the 99th percentile fo teh 99th percentile of the 99th percentile. at that level, there are no tests other than fields medals, nobel prizes, citations in scholarly journals, professorships, ground breaking findings, etc, differences that have shown up over time in every culture.

      I'm in the first group and I'm so far behind the group people talk about when they call someone a math genius it's stupid to care. it's like saying more women are in teh 50th - 60th percentile so more should be in the 99th percentile for high school tests. there is no reason that has to be the case.

    39. Re:...or maybe by fractoid · · Score: 1

      Depends how good at it you are. If you're on the cutting edge of cryptographic research, for example, you'll be raking it in. If you're not on the cutting edge of _something_, though, it's both boring and not very lucrative.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    40. Re:...or maybe by cha5on · · Score: 1

      I call BS on a study that looks at test scores, (seemingly) for high school students, and says that the more women are in the 99% percentile so it's cultural.

      So let me get this straight: you're saying that it's not significant that nations with greater gender equality have more women scoring above the 99th percentile in mathematics?

      Methinks someone failed Logic 101.

      Certainly, scoring in the 99th percentile is by no means an indication of math genius-ness. But that's missing the point entirely—what matters is that there are strong cultural factors that are pushing many capable women away from mathematics, leaving any mathematical ability unidentified, genius or not.

    41. Re:...or maybe by fractoid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The difference is that the lonely female TA just has to wander down to the local bar wearing a tight top and by the end of the night she'll have half a dozen offers. A lonely male TA, on the other hand, will just be one of those dozen offers, and his odds aren't good, so when that hot chick in his class offers to sex him up in exchange for a few extra days to work on her assignment... well who knows, maybe she had a crush on him anyway?

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    42. Re:...or maybe by fractoid · · Score: 1

      Also, even when considering men and women in exactly the same role and environment, expected long absence from the workplace will effect lower earnings. Consider the wages that your average guy will earn compared to the wages (yearly and accumulated lifetime) that another guy in the same job will get if he takes 5+ years out of his career to care for his children. Hint: 5 years' worth of pay rises is quite a lot. Also often not taken into account is the fact that, traditionally, women are financially supported by their partners. Obviously these days that's less common than it used to be, but still, it seems unfair to complain about a man earning 20% more than his female counterparts when 50% of his net wage goes to supporting a spouse.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    43. Re:...or maybe by dollargonzo · · Score: 1

      My whole point was that sexism is to a large degree not conscious and hugely dependent on the societal f of the perceived value of women. So yes, in some sense, there is some uniform level of sexism across men and women due to framing and I think this accounts for the differences and why the employment "market" isn't efficient in this sense.

      --
      BSD is for people who love UNIX. Linux is for those who hate Microsoft.
    44. Re:...or maybe by humppamies · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well here are some:

      http://ec.europa.eu/employment_social/publications/2006/ke7606200_en.pdf
      http://www.bmfsfj.de/bmfsfj/generator/RedaktionBMFSFJ/Abteilung4/Pdf-Anlagen/entgeltungleichheit-sinusstudie,property=pdf,bereich=,sprache=de,rwb=true.pdf

      The second one is in german, but serves to prove the "same work different pay" aspect. You have to imagine the following: In Germany, YOU NEVER GET TO KNOW WHAT YOUR COLLEAGUES MAKE. That's right. You can work alongside a person for thirty years, doing the same work, and be completely in the dark wether or not there is a pay difference between you. Germany has a very rigid culture of secrecy regarding matters of pay. There are no legal obligations or even guidelines for transparency.
      Now look at the numbers of the second study. You can see that even in jobs in which stereotypewise we wouldn't expect a pay gap (example: cook) women earn something like two thirds of what men make. THAT'S the gender bias people are talking about.

      Both studies were created by government agencies, btw. (EU Commission, German Ministry of Family Affairs)

    45. Re:...or maybe by Ben1220 · · Score: 1

      whoaaa! I'm a young man and I had no idea that I like sports and multi-level marketing, I thought I hated that stuff.

    46. Re:...or maybe by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      my point was simple, none of those countries show a predisposition for women at the very upper eschelons (you are no more likely to see a woman field's medalist in Korea or Europe compared to the US or Japan).

      every discussion I've heard isn't why women can't do calculus at the high school level. anyone who thinks they can't is an idiot. the question is why aren't they winning Nobels and Fields medals for math related work (theoretical physics is very math intensive so I would argue a similar amount of math aptitude is required for a nobel in that as it is for a field's medal).

      there may be strong cultural factors causing women who could do calculus to not do it but that doesn't explain why there are fewer women PhD. As I said, it's like saying because there are more women in the 80th to 90th percentile than men, women should have a great representation in the 99th. that is required by any amount of logic.

      so if we are only concerned about women taking calc in high school, sure, this study is very relevant. if we are wondering why there aren't any women's field medalists, it's a completely different question that requires much more than just looking at averages. if you want to look at outliers, you need to study publication history, citations of work, and look for mathematicians opinions on the significance of work.

      not logic, just pointing out that the study does not address what it seems to make conclusions about.

    47. Re:...or maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are two things we're talking about here.

      Ability. And Interest.

      Both genders can be equally able at something, while only one shows interest in it.

    48. Re:...or maybe by MPAB · · Score: 1

      As a doctor, I've noticed that the climbing of women ratios has gone along with the decline in pay. Not sure if in the US, but it happens in European and 2.5-world countries I've lived in.

      Could it be perhaps because of the popularization of the medical career, which yields a growing number of physicians (and easier opportunities to become one) each year everywhere? Or is it that males are rushing out of this career as it becomes less paid for the sacrifice it demands?

      In my experience, though, the females in med school are in average much more studying and dedicated than us their male counterparts. Thus, they tend to set the bar higher for all of us.

    49. Re:...or maybe by Aceticon · · Score: 1

      I studied in a technical University in Portugal and both the Physics and the Mathematics degrees had as many women as they had men.

      Computer Science had somewhat fewer women than men, Chemistry had more women than men and Electronics had almost no women (guess which one I was doing).

      As far as I can tell, were I come from there as a many women in science as there are men.

      (PS: From what I remembered, universities that taught social sciences did has a lot more women than men.)

      Maybe the disparity being discussed here is a cultural characteristic specific to the US...?

    50. Re:...or maybe by kandela · · Score: 1

      You are attempting to be funny but you speak the truth. Try couching it in this terminology:

      If you are in science at postgraduate level chances are it isn't for the money it is because you really love it. It is part of who you are. Now, what affect do you think it has on one's self esteem if half the population (in particular those your sexual orientation dictates you are likely to become romantically involved with) don't understand your passion, or even are socially conditioned not to? Of course that is going to suck.

      Note that it will also suck for the females who stick with it because opportunities for female-female bonding are also reduced. If your peers don't value what you do that sucks too.

      --
      Conservation of angular momentum makes the world go round.
    51. Re:...or maybe by inline_four · · Score: 1

      I'd love to see the studies you claim make this a well understood fact.

      I'm not going to do a cited paper, so give me some latitude here with some well understood facts.

      Its nice to believe that there is some equal playing ground in life, but its the differences between people that make things interesting. This perennial debate over the sexes being the same is quixotic. All sex based species have differences between the sexes for survival of the species. Humans have not evolved any more than the animals that they have domesticated. Dogs still bury bones in the corner of a carpeted room because its in their genes to do so. Cats kill birds and bring them home even though they have plenty of food because its in their genes. Dogs are not cats.

      Humans are not genetically different from the hunters and gathers from around 100,000 years ago. Meaning they are not any smarter, even though some of them know how to do partial differential equations and some don't. In humans, its the males that typically did the hunting and females did the child rearing and gathering. Female humans have wider hips for giving birth which limits their ability to run and catch prey which is needed for protein in their diet. Hunting abilities gave men better spacial abilities, the ability to plan and execute a plan, and also men have a much greater upper body strength and lung capacity. These are well understood facts for anyone who knows a little about human evolution or biology. Gathering abilities enable women to have better periphery short range vision (eg, why they can find things in the refrigerator that were right in front of the man's face!).

      To say that women and men are the same is nonproductive because by definition they are different.

      I think you need to read up a bit on human evolution. The things we know don't definitively indicate that men were hunters and women stayed back in the caves and reared children. In fact, it seems early humans were primarily gatherers and trap setters. Both of those tasks were done cooperatively by both sexes. There is also evidence making this dichotomy murky pointing to the fact that what we sometimes perceive as innate difference in people's abilities are manifestations of the differences in people's reaction to prejudgment and expectations. In other words, some people are psyched out more easily than others. Certainly, men and women aren't the same biologically, but the argument of nature vs nurture is far from settled. I'm not advocating making us a society of drones, but glazing over the breadth of each genders' psychological and mental reach is just as shortsighted as claiming there are certain forever unbridgable divides between us we simply must accept.

      --
      Alexey
    52. Re:...or maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The biological function of the women is to rise kids, it's why in our society it's more difficult for the women to do other functions, including math.

    53. Re:...or maybe by Teriblows · · Score: 1

      so true, any company that would take advantage of the so called pay gap would crush its competition, greed always wins. it basically shows how big a lie this is. a 30% advantage is simply a recipe for domination of any sector. it is a manufacturered figure that is exaggerated and oversimplifies reality by assuming everyone makes the same life choices and so should have the same result. that it doesn't make sense doesn't make a spit of difference in politics where reason and truth count for nothing, and repeating big lies for political gain is perfectly kosher, especially if you have the power of political correctness to smash down anyone that questions your dubious claims.

    54. Re:...or maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The studies showing that women make 75 cents for every dollar a man earns at the same job were done by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. I never wanted to believe that, but I worked in career services for a few years, and the numbers were right there in front of me. I then thought that maybe women go to work for public interest employers and men work 80 hours a week in the private sector, which would explain the difference, but that wasn't true either - women made less money for literally the same job, same hours, and same background requirement.

      Your point that employers should prefer to hire women (if they indeed get the same work for less money) is well taken, and I'm actually a bit puzzled as to why we don't see more of that. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it does make financial sense on their part - but I don't see that. Even with the economy the way it is now, I'm seeing more women getting salary reductions and layoffs than men, probably because of the old stereotype that he has a family to support.

  3. And while we're on the subject... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How about showcasing the widening gender gap in BA/BS degrees in Western culture? Women are earning more degrees almost across the board, and yet there is almost no measures being taken to call attention to that disparity.

    1. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      How about showcasing the widening gender gap in BA/BS degrees in Western culture? Women are earning more degrees almost across the board, and yet there is almost no measures being taken to call attention to that disparity.

      There are more moderately-high paying jobs not requiring a BA/BS degree that men traditionally hold, rather than women. Building trades, for instance.

      And since women tend to work less than men (as a whole, due to traditional family roles), some of them have the luxury of more time for education.

      FWIW, since this is a relatively recent development, I think it's fine... it'll help undo centuries/millenia of male domination in Western culture.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    2. Re:And while we're on the subject... by spinkham · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sorry, we only study gender and race when it fits a pattern of traditional bias. Biases against the traditional more powerful groups are welcomed and encouraged.

      --
      Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
    3. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's all intentional.

      Schools have been geared toward girls.
      Everything from the environment, discipline, actual instruction, and expected performance has been bastardized to make females perform better than males, without any actual focus on understanding the material.

    4. Re:And while we're on the subject... by bertoelcon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think it's fine... it'll help undo centuries/millenia of male domination in Western culture.

      But it will most likely take at least a century, probably more, to breakdown completely, look at racism it has taken a long time to break as far as it has. Sexism will take no less time and will most likely take more because it is deeper ingrained

      --
      Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
    5. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Good point.

      But I'd like to add that the pace of societal change has, IMO, increased rapidly since the advent of mass media and the internet.

      The Cosby show probably did more to help reduce racism against blacks in the US than any other single thing in the last 2-3 decades. Numerous shows depicting women in positions of power have done the same for women.

      But, in the end, I think we're very limited in how fast change can happen... it's a generational process. I find it amazing that some of the people in the highest positions of political power now, basically formulated their prejudices before the end of segregation in the US. I wonder what the US will look like re: racism when today's kids are 70 years old? How much would the R&B/Hip-hop movement to rural areas & the burbs affect their ideas of race?

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    6. Re:And while we're on the subject... by internerdj · · Score: 1

      So to clarify we have a bias against non-traditional biases?

    7. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In what sense do males dominate ... they go out and fight the wars whilst the women stay at home child-rearing. Who is truly in the position of power? It is the women in such situations that shape society.

      In my locality the tradition until recently was for men to do highly risky jobs 6 of 7 days and bring the money home to the women who would determine how to use the money - the men virtually serfs under a background of matriarchal dominance.

      The most powerful person in my country is a woman, has been for nearly 60 years.

    8. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      Racism tends to be a one-sided injustice, while sexism is more insidious.

      Sexism, for example, stereotypes both men and women, and in positive and negative ways.

      Father's rights groups have popped up in many countries because of the ingrained sexist attitudes in many legal systems which say any women is better than any man at being a parent. Men who are accused of abuse or rape or stalking are treated differently in the legal system(and society) than women who are accused of abuse or rape or stalking. On the other hand, they're given more credit as to being strong, capable, and stable.

      At the same time, women have to deal with the many and varied "girls can't/shouldn't do that" myths regarding life choices, and also bear unusual burdens regarding sex(Though I suspect some of those are self-inflicted). At the same time, they're given more credit in a number of areas (think of the last 'incompetent dad needs omniscient mom to help deal with common life problems' ad you saw)

      --
      It's been a long time.
    9. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There are more moderately-high paying jobs not requiring a BA/BS degree that men traditionally hold, rather than women. Building trades, for instance.

      Nearly all of which have collapsed under competition from guest workers or foreign countries since roughly the '90s.

      FWIW, since this is a relatively recent development, I think it's fine... it'll help undo centuries/millenia of male domination in Western culture.

      Male domination my ass. Men don't dominate. The top men dominate.

    10. Re:And while we're on the subject... by kklein · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes. This is how I see society working as well. Men are expendable.

      Also, as much as there are horrific abuses of women in the Arab world, I suspect they are aberrations. I have known a lot of Arabic guys in university, and with the exception of one creep, those guys dote on their wives and do what their wives tell them. The women really seem to wear the pants and make the big decisions; the guys are like children who are given a little more slack because they go out and earn the money.

      I honestly think that this view of society needs to be put out there more. I live in Japan, and this is very much how this works. Guys go out and work themselves to death; housewives have the bank card and give the guy an allowance.

      You know that saying "behind every great man there is a great woman?" Well, people think that it's sexist, because it implies that women are in a support role, but what it doesn't mention is the strings connecting the woman's hands to the man, and the fact that the man is in front because that's always where you put a shield. He's there to do the bidding of the woman and soak up bullets.

      Okay, so the model of society I'm posing here isn't exactly true, but I would argue that it is no less true than the model of male dominance. The truth is always a lot more complex than any little caricature we can dream up.

    11. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i would like to see more discussion about this comment, seeing as how it's being modded up.

    12. Re:And while we're on the subject... by bogjobber · · Score: 2, Interesting

      FWIW, since this is a relatively recent development, I think it's fine... it'll help undo centuries/millenia of male domination in Western culture.

      No, you are wrong. This is a terribly serious problem.

      This isn't simply a case of more women getting degrees. It's also that fewer males are getting degrees. Look at the dropout rates in high school for men vs. women, particularly among inner city kids and many ethnic minorities. It's absolutely devastating.

      And this isn't about jobs, this is about education. The solution to "centuries/millenia of male domination in Western culture" isn't to make all the men uneducated idiots. That solves nothing, and I think it's reasonable to expect it to make the problem worse.

      We need a serious men's education movement in this country. How many sociologists are doing gender-based research on men's issues vs. the number of them who research women's issues? I know they're out there, but from my experience in college and my (admittedly limited) experience with the field, I see the numbers are massively skewed towards women's issues. And I don't mean this in a Rush Limbaugh reverse-racism reverse-sexism sort of way. But how many universities or colleges have a men's studies department?

      We need to have an honest and frank dicussion about the existence of these problems in order to understand how to reverse these trends.

    13. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Ahhh of course. Certainly no reasonable person could have any problem with discriminating against someone today because they have the same skin or facial features or genitals as some group who supposedly committed some wrong sometime in the past. Hey, that person today looks the same as the past oppressor so it's ok to discriminate against them. Isn't that right Red Flayer?

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    14. Re:And while we're on the subject... by NonSequor · · Score: 1

      John Stuart Mill made the argument that such a view is ultimately demeaning to men and women alike.

      When you suggest it is good and proper to limit the scope of concerns of certain groups of people, you're doing a great disservice to the immense range of capability of the human race, which my experience has shown to have no restrictions beyond those that we ourselves place on it.

      I believe in the concept that a husband and wife should be a team, but the details of any such arrangement should be worked out based on the needs and skills of each couple, rather than by preassignment of culturally constructed roles.

      --
      My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
    15. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      You know how far you will get with that? Well the old "women working full-time only make $0.60 for every dollar that men make" propaganda is still being pushed in the press. It is put forward by academics who definitely know better and published by newspapers with editors that certainly ought to know better. But the feminist revolution firmly embraces the ideal of "the ends justify the means" - as the person you are responding to here has amply demonstrated - and they will fight tooth and nail any attention being given to the idea of men being short-changed.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    16. Re:And while we're on the subject... by bogjobber · · Score: 1

      Hold on a second buddy, the language you use make me hesitant to agree with you. I don't mean to make it sound like I don't believe there are women's issues out there. I consider myself a feminist, and there are still some massive problems with gender inequity in this country, including women making less money than men for equal work. That is still an issue, even if it's not the massive problem it was 20-30 years ago.

      I just feel that we need to give the same consideration for men's issues, especially in an academic setting. These are very troubling trends, and I don't think they are given the same weight and importance from academics as a similar trend among women would.

    17. Re:And while we're on the subject... by bothemeson · · Score: 0
      Good point about complexity.
      Can I suggest that it's the 'doting' you mention that's a part of the problem here? It's pretty much the same in Catholic countries where the elevation of women (you could call it the Cult of Mary) onto a pedestal is one side of a coin that is opposed by, for example, truly abhorent behaviour against women who fall short of the 'ideal'.
      It's not only in arabic countries where women who breach the social, often unwritten, rules are humiliated and possibly raped in the knowledge that the raped woman is unlikely to complain and lose what private dignity remains. Being in Japan you'd know more about bukake than I but that might be a red herring.

      I quite agree that the expendability model of maleness is robust - particularly, I would argue, in societies where males are kept from seeing women as 'people'. Porn also helps, I think (and I know that this is /.), to infantilise men with unrealistic notions of female sexuality.

      As it happens my GF is a Professor of Statistics at an English Red Brick university while I garden, make wine and look after the house. She faces problems at work from two directions - one set of male colleagues spend time telling her how pretty and young (she's as old as many of them) she is - those are the bastards to watch.

      Others unwittingly exclude her by not allowing that the sexes use language in different ways whilst claiming that her usage is inferior. Her flexibility in language does seem to make her a better teacher, though, as she notices who is not understanding her point and switches to different analogues until all present 'get it'. I know that some men do this as well and the difference seems encultured. Anyhow, thanks for an interesting post.

    18. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well I'm sure you've already seen the effects of the "R&B/Hip-hop movement". One only needs to look at US crime figures for young people, teen pregnancy rates, failing IQ scores and poor performance at schools.

    19. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Well if I say something untrue you may have cause for complaint. My saying things in a way you're uncomfortable with isn't really a problem afaics. Do women make less money than men for equal work? Not in Canada, and especially not for younger women. Once you account for actual hours worked, seniority, education etc., specifically once you account for all the non sex differences, the difference in pay is within the margin of statistical error. That's been true for at least 15 years.

      As far as the issues you are worried about, if feminism were about equality then women's studies departments would have addressed those issues long ago as well.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    20. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      Yes, it is right. Because the effects of that prior discrimination are not gone... they still exist. Glass ceilings, race-based (or gender-based) hiring and promotions... it's still there.

      If we really want to be a land of equal opportunity, we've got to counter the residual discrimination that still exists.

      I know, it's not fair to some individuals. But that's the price of living in a land of opportunity -- and not allowing equal opportunity pretty much shatters any possibility of the American ideal.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    21. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      So you are willing to discriminate against somebody not because of anything they did but simply because they look like the people you claim did some wrong. I'm not sure how you can get your head around that but it's bigotry in its worst form. Funny how so many will decry the evils of discrimination, real or imagined, and then turn right around and do the exact same thing themselves when it gets them something they want.

      I know, it's not fair to some individuals.

      Gee, ya think? But you figure it's ok to treat people unfairly as long as you get what you want. Nice set of values.

      not allowing equal opportunity pretty much shatters any possibility of the American ideal

      Ahhh, so in order to have equal opportunity we must discriminate against some completely innocent people and give them less opportunity. Does your head hurt at all when you say stuff like this? You know, every bigot, dictator and tyrant in history had a rationalization for the evil they were committing. Just as you do.

      After all the lessons of history, all the people dying in wars fighting against it... it's truly depressing to hear people still espousing a "the ends justify the means" philosophy.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    22. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      You're missing the basic point.

      Currently lots of people are discriminated against. If this is the land of opportunity, then we need to counterbalance that discrimination to provide equal opportunity.

      It's equally depressing to see that there are plenty of bigots like yourself who refuse to see inequal opportunity as a problem.

      I know we'll never agree on the subject, but it saddens me that a supposedly just society can produce people who choose to ignore the impact of systemic discrimination.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    23. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1
      No, the basic point is whether or not the ends justify the means. You clearly believe in discriminating against people based on their sex. You've said so. Whether or not there is systemic discrimination (which is questionable at best) the means you choose to end the supposed discrimination are themselves bigoted. The fact that you can actually say that refusing to discriminate based on sex makes me a bigot shows how truly twisted your thinking has become.

      Perhaps a little story from Aesop will help.

      The Wolf and the Lamb

      Once upon a time a Wolf was lapping at a spring on a hillside, when, looking up, what should he see but a Lamb just beginning to drink a little lower down. "There's my supper," thought he, "if only I can find some excuse to seize it." Then he called out to the Lamb, "How dare you muddle the water from which I am drinking?"

      "Nay, master, nay," said Lambikin; "if the water be muddy up there, I cannot be the cause of it, for it runs down from you to me."

      "Well, then," said the Wolf, "why did you call me bad names this time last year?"

      "That cannot be," said the Lamb; "I am only six months old."

      "I don't care," snarled the Wolf; "if it was not you it was your father;" and with that he rushed upon the poor little Lamb and ate her all up. But before she died she gasped out

      "Any excuse will serve a tyrant."

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    24. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      No, this is not an ends vs. means situation. This is an individual benefit vs. societal benefit situation.

      Let's flip the tables. Is it fair that a set of individuals has no opportunity for advancement due to discrimination?

      Start by answering that question.

      Now, the second question, which is really what this is all about. Do we have a societal responsibility to address the extant discrimination against individuals?

      And finally, the analysis. If your answer to (1) is NO, and your answer to (2) is NO, then now I know that you do not share my values to any extent, and arguing with you is useless -- but I am saddened that you do not believe in fundamental equality.

      If your answers to one is (1) YES, then I'll write you off as a self-interested bigot.

      If your answers are (1) NO and (2) YES, then please explain your position more clearly, for there is a fundamental logical problem.

      And your fable? I've read it before, and it makes no more sense in a societal context now as it ever has. And linking it to excuses for tyranny is laughable... you are substituting potential tyranny for extant tyranny.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    25. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      LOL you have clearly stated that the ends justify the means so it quite obviously is an ends justify the means situation. I'm not imagining or interpreting this in any way - this is what you have clearly stated. You can try and dress it up any way you want but the unvarnished truth, again by your own words, is that you are willing to discriminate against innocent individuals based on their gender because it will produce an outcome you want. That is the very definition of bigotry.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    26. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      It appears that you must have rented out your brain (and thus your nick is no longer apt) because you're still missing the original point. Your red herring does not change this.

      I do believe the ends justify the means. That is not up for debate. What is up for debate is whether you believe inequal opportunity is just.

      Apparently, you believe it is fine.

      I do believe it is just to discriminate against individuals based on their gender in order to ensure an equal playing field.


      Finally, let me guess some things. You are a white male under the age of 24, with a conservative father, who had a stay-at-home mother, or a mother with a very low-end job. You grew up in either suburbia or a small-town setting with a smallish but significant minority population, but then went to (or are attending) a mostly-white college. The area you grew up in likely has a below-national-average education level. Am I right?

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    27. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Pointing out that your thinking is bigoted is not a red herring Red Flayer, it is the point. You're rationalizations attempting to justify that bigotry do not change that.

      I do believe the ends justify the means.

      Then you are a sad and very dangerous type of person who has failed to learn some very important lessons from history.

      I do believe it is just to discriminate against individuals based on their gender

      Then you are a sexist bigot. By definition. The fact that you think you have ample justification doesn't change that. Every bigot thinks they are justified and apparently you are no different. In your world people will not have a fundamental right to be free from discrimination, they will have a privilege that may be curtailed at any time the powers that be decide it is convenient to do so. Most people will understand that that would be a "bad thing" but evidently you don't get it. If fact you've stated that it will be unfair to those discriminated against but treating them unfairly is ok by you. You are a menace to a free society.

      Finally, let me guess some things.

      Why? Because you can't deflect me from pointing out the inherent bigotry of your attitudes so you wish to attempt a sideways ad hominem attack? And, quite aside from being hilariously wrong, the "guesses" reveal far more about you than you would probably like. You're so easily threatened and so easily stoop to stereotyping, but then everything you've said is bigoted so it isn't a real surprise - although that doesn't stop it from being really quite sad.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    28. Re:And while we're on the subject... by mi · · Score: 1

      husband and wife should be a team, but the details of any such arrangement should be worked out based on the needs and skills of each couple, rather than by preassignment of culturally constructed roles.

      Sorry, the above nice-sounding statement makes no sense, because some (most important) roles are "constructed" by biology. Once you accept, that only the wife is to give birth (and you better), you accept, that some things can not be "worked out based on the needs and skills". And so the question comes right back to what's determined merely by culture (and can be changed, if desired), and what's handed over to us by evolution (and is thus very hard/useless to fight)...

      For example, there is a fairly strong argument, that women are better at handling many small chores at once (perhaps, because they were gathering and tending to babies) — which may explain, why most secretaries are female, while men excel at big projects (but only one project at a time — "context switch" being more expensive for the male brain) — because, able to develop more muscle, they used to concentrate on hunting, which requires concentration.

      Of course, unlike child-bearing, the above example talks only about statistical differences — there certainly exist wives, who happen to exceed their husbands in some things, that are usually deemed "manly". But statistics is all, that the article is about...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    29. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      Out of fear of some tyrannical bogeyman, you are willing to let millions of people wallow in discrimination. You still haven't addressed whether you think this is just, and whether it is necessary to provide for equal opportunity in order to be a just society. Are you avoiding that question because the answer would show your true bigotry?

      You are quick to call others bigot -- you should probably examine your own beliefs.

      As for my guesses being hilariously wrong, care to share? I'm curious what upbringing could have resulted in someone so afraid of tyranny that they are willing to turn a blind eye to wanton injustice.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    30. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Out of fear of some tyrannical bogeyman,

      The use of the word bogeyman presumably being intended to imply that there is no danger, but doing so without you having to actually make that claim and then defend it. You don't seem to have learned much from history. But hey, in a land of warrant-less wiretaps, extreme rendition, government sanctioned torture etc. what could possibly go wrong with reducing yet another right to the status of revocable privilege? I'm sure things would be much better if you and your fellow travellers were in charge. You are, after all, so different from the other would be tyrants.

      You still haven't addressed

      There is no need for me to fall for your attempt to divert things because your claimed motivation for being a bigot does not in any way not affect the truth/falsity of the claim that you are a bigot.

      You are quick to call others bigot

      Actually I'm not quick to label others as bigots, in fact it is a very rare occurrence for me. However since you specifically declared yourself to have all the attributes of a bigot it's kind of hard to avoid labelling you as such. Sheesh, look in a dictionary sometime. Also you have no data on which to base your claim about my labelling others but you present it as fact - thereby indicating that little credence should be placed in any claim you make.

      you should probably examine your own beliefs.

      I do. Constantly. But I get the feeling you don't question yourself much, if at all.

      As for my guesses being hilariously wrong, care to share?

      LOL Why would I want to participate in an ad hominem attack on myself? Don't be silly.

      I'm curious what upbringing could have resulted in someone so afraid of tyranny that

      Ummm, one where I was taught some history, given analytical tools to observe what is going on around me and appraise the claims of others, etcetera... your comments indicate that didn't happen for you.

      they are willing to turn a blind eye to wanton injustice.

      Since I not only never said that but never even implied it you are once again demonstrating your willingness to promote your uninformed opinions to the status of facts and publicly present them as such. Again you are giving a clear indication of how much credence should be given to your various claims. And "wanton"? You might do better if you dialed back the hyperbole a smidgen.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    31. Re:And while we're on the subject... by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      The use of the word bogeyman presumably being intended to imply that there is no danger, but doing so without you having to actually make that claim and then defend it.

      I'm not making that claim. You presume too much. There is danger, but you overstate the danger, whipping it up into a bogeyman that must be avoided at all costs. What you have done with "tyranny" is no better than what some of the potential tyrants have done with "terrorists".

      Sheesh, look in a dictionary sometime.

      I did. Long ago, when you claimed I fit the very definition of a bigot. And guess what? I don't. YOU need to look in a dictionary -- or, if your understanding of the word bigot is correct, then you need to revisit your presumptions of what I believe in relation to who I am.

      I do. Constantly. But I get the feeling you don't question yourself much, if at all.

      Why? Because I disagree with your paranoid conclusions? Because you do not believe it is possible for someone to question themselves and come to a different conclusion that you did? I genuflect all the time. But this isn't about me anymore -- it's about your inability to address one of the foundations of your argument. This alone tells me that you don't want to question your own beliefs.

      LOL Why would I want to participate in an ad hominem attack on myself? Don't be silly.

      Where is the ad hominem attack? I haven't made one. I'm trying to understand where your philosophy has come from, so I can better understand why you apparently believe that an unjust society is tolerable.

      Ummm, one where I was taught some history, given analytical tools to observe what is going on around me and appraise the claims of others, etcetera... your comments indicate that didn't happen for you.

      So, still more ad hominem attacks from you. Do you have any other tools in your shed? Such as reasoned debate? Or are you still tossing the ad hominems to avoid answering questions fundamental to your analysis of the situation?

      Since I not only never said that but never even implied it you are once again demonstrating your willingness to promote your uninformed opinions to the status of facts and publicly present them as such. Again you are giving a clear indication of how much credence should be given to your various claims. And "wanton"? You might do better if you dialed back the hyperbole a smidgen.

      You did indeed imply that. Numerous times. By avoiding answering the questions that would have cleared up your views on that specific issue. By discounting systematic redress of injustice as a valid policy to counteract it. By refusing to address the issue when I had raised it more than once before.

      So, before you go back onto your "ends justify the means" rant, will you please address the two questions laid out in a prior post? Or will you continue to stand on a logical point that has no foundation?

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  4. CS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    How about we close that gap in CS now.

    Im so lonely :(

    1. Re:CS by sorak · · Score: 1

      How about we close that gap in CS now.

      Im so lonely :(

      So you're just like us guys.

    2. Re:CS by berj · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You want to date a programmer? Are you nuts?

    3. Re:CS by Tetsujin · · Score: 3, Funny

      You want to date a programmer? Are you nuts?

      Obligatory XKCD...

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
    4. Re:CS by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      Oh, great, so we can have a whole mass of girls with hygene issues out there. I'm glad I already found my wife. J/K... mostly

    5. Re:CS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The CNR one would also fit nicely.

    6. Re:CS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      seriously. have you ever seen a female programmer? usually not a pretty sight.

    7. Re:CS by linzeal · · Score: 1

      Dating in your own field is a lot more work than dating someone who compliments you intellectually and socially. I would not want to date another engineer unless she had her own place with her own tools and workspace for one, two moving in the same social crowd seems like a good idea till you break up and she usually keeps the friends and last but not least I like dating artists/social scientist types because they do not try to correct my horribly kludged math notation.

    8. Re:CS by barberousse · · Score: 1

      Have you seen the male one?

    9. Re:CS by Vu1turEMaN · · Score: 1

      I'd rather someone close the age gap in History teachers so I can stop hearing about the Cold War like its still going on.

      I had one 25yr old History teacher at CCAC, and it was the most incredible experience one could ask for. They need more of them badly. Almost as badly as CS teachers.

    10. Re:CS by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 4, Informative

      Dang, moderators give you +2 Funny now just for posting a link to an XKCD?

    11. Re:CS by nyctopterus · · Score: 1

      But the cold war's coming back in! Yo've just got to hang out long enough, and everything old is new again.

    12. Re:CS by billius · · Score: 1

      It's true! At my school (University of Arizona) CS consistently either has the lowest or second lowest female enrollment of any major (we're in a competition with Optical Engineering it seems). My roommate is a Math major and he actually *met* his current girlfriend through a student teaching position (they were both TAs). Women are doing better in Math specifically, but in other "mathy" fields (CS, Engineering, etc) they are still really underrepresented. Not that it's the job of the University to find me a date who will listen to me prattle on about the editor wars or anything :p

    13. Re:CS by Vu1turEMaN · · Score: 1

      Right, but they're still talking about Cold War I when I wanna talk about Cold War II.

      Luckily, my young History teacher was talking about II and how III was going to happen....it was amazing.

    14. Re:CS by Whitemage12380 · · Score: 1

      I did a report on the very subject last semester. Yeah, the math gap is closing way up, but the CS gap is really depressing. In fact, the CS gap was very small nearer the beginning of its conception, but at least as far as 2007 it's only been growing. We need a serious societal reconsideration of what being a programmer means in order to get that gap down. No more [CS = at computer labs 24/7 hacking, drinking mountain dew, and playing Quake].

    15. Re:CS by corsec67 · · Score: 2, Funny

      That is just how funny XKCD is, even linking to the relevant strip gives you a Funny moderation.

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
    16. Re:CS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's a sophisticated method to burn the karma of cheap karma whores.
      Funny moderations don't give any positive karma -- it's been this way for some years now.
      However, they do attract inevitably jealous moderators who will give negative moderation like -1 offtopic or -1 overrated (if they are smart, overrated doesn't show up in metamod).
      So pushing a post to +5 Funny is a save way to burn a lot of karma of the poster and has a chance of getting their karma into bad or even terrible. After that all their posts start at -1 and are not accessible within the new slashdot web 2.0 system. On top of that nobody bothers to mod up negative posts anymore anyways.
      This shuts them up for good.

    17. Re:CS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least they speak the same language ... C, C++, Java, Lisp ...

    18. Re:CS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've worked with several. Most of them good looking (and married).

    19. Re:CS by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

      Dang, moderators give you +2 Funny now just for posting a link to an XKCD?

      Yeah, it does seem a bit... I don't know... unfair? imbalanced? After all, it's not my "funny". I guess I could have posted it anonymously or something...

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
  5. The real question... by delta419 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...as many girls as boys now taking high school calculus

    My problem is the number of **attractive** girls taking my class. There are girls, and then there are girls.

    1. Re:The real question... by eldavojohn · · Score: 1

      ...as many girls as boys now taking high school calculus

      My problem is the number of **attractive** girls taking my class. There are girls, and then there are girls.

      Agreed, I would also like to point out that there's a big difference between a "whole lot of girls" and a "whole lot of girl."

      --
      My work here is dung.
    2. Re:The real question... by internerdj · · Score: 5, Funny

      Here is hoping you are a student and not a teacher.

    3. Re:The real question... by delta419 · · Score: 1

      Good call- I'm a student.

    4. Re:The real question... by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My problem is the number of **attractive** girls taking my class. There are girls, and then there are girls.

      I'll bet the girls in your class are saying the same thing about the guys. No, I'm not trying to be a smart ass: the fact is that people interested in higher math tend to be geeky because they're more interested in math than say, what Gina wore to the party last night.

      And I say this as a fellow geek.

    5. Re:The real question... by Rycross · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As the nerd women I know say, "The odds are good, but the goods are odd."

    6. Re:The real question... by story645 · · Score: 1

      Aww, phdcomics

      As a girl in those classes: 8 years (high school + college) of male dominated courses and only a handful of reasonably attractive (even fewer hot) guys. Equal distribution of eye candy would also be nice.

      --
      open source modern art: laser taggi
    7. Re:The real question... by morgauxo · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Who told you that YOU are eye candy?? Sry, couldn't resist, go ahead and mod me down!

    8. Re:The real question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now when I was in college... in Math the top 3 students were the top 3 best looking girls. They cruised 3rd year Math at a casual 90% plus level, where the rest of us mere mortals were smashing our heads on the walls to get up to a passing grade.

      Now over in the CS class, the couple of nice girls did fine on theory, but really battled in the lab. They guys generally did Ok on both theory and lab, or were useless.

    9. Re:The real question... by story645 · · Score: 1

      Don't care and never said I was. (I'm most probably not.) Just saying, if he wants pretty girls in class, better bring in the pretty boys.

      --
      open source modern art: laser taggi
    10. Re:The real question... by ViennaSt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ...as many girls as boys now taking high school calculus

      My problem is the number of **attractive** girls taking my class. There are girls, and then there are girls.

      No, the problem is whether or not it is **American** girls in these classes and in this study. Look at the swarms of Chinese and Indian females that take up these majors in the American universities. You'll find that these cultures don't have this "gender gap" or separation with these subjects. This may be due to these cultures not having the option of taking the social sciences. I would like a breakdown of what race/culture make up these woman that are obtaining these Ph.D. If it is mostly foreign born, then we are looking at a socialized root of the mathematic gender gap problem--not an anatomical/physiological difference that develops in male and female brains that causing the difference in mathematic performance.

      Also, Winny from the Wonder Years got a Ph.D. degree in math. She's hot.

      --
      "Engineering. Where the noble, semi-skilled laborers execute the vision of those who think and dream." -Sheldon
    11. Re:The real question... by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      I really need a disclaimer here: I'm married and monogamous (4 years and counting) and therefore am no longer on the dating scene, but some quick advice here:

      "Hot" is more about malleable things such as attitude, dress, hygiene, and behavior than it is about genetics and physicalities. Once you fully grok that -- not just understand, but grok -- the rules of the game change entirely in your favor. ;)

    12. Re:The real question... by jacqdesign · · Score: 1

      ...as many girls as boys now taking high school calculus

      My problem is the number of **attractive** girls taking my class. There are girls, and then there are girls.

      I am waiting for the girls in your class to post a comment about how they are waiting for some *attractive* guys to start taking your calculus class.

    13. Re:The real question... by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1

      Yes, but ...

      There's no replacement for a few hours a week at the gym, and a bunch of minutes in the shower and front of the mirror in the morning. (OK, you did include "hygiene" as one of the malleable things.)

      I agree with your point over-all, and moreover: attractiveness isn't a quality, it's a special-effect. A hack, if you will.

    14. Re:The real question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure that goes both ways; That is to say that if you looked like "insert handsome-type man name here" the equally hot looking girls would take Calculus to.

    15. Re:The real question... by XcepticZP · · Score: 1

      Nooo thank you, buddy. We don't want "pretty boys" in our classes, thank you very much. Just what we need is for a bunch of frat boys to ruin the experience for the rest of us. I mean, it's bad enough that lots of CS classes are filled with people just doing CS because it's the "in thing" to do at the moment, we don't need frat boys bringing blond bimbo's in so they can distract the rest of us. Not to mention the stupid snickers and comments they'd make at what the lecturer is talking about.

      What we do want, and I'm sure lots of my fellow CS students will agree with me on this, is females that are equally attractive and smart as we are. Oh and they have to be into geek stuff, like Star Trek and RPG games :) I would give my left testicle for a girl like that.

    16. Re:The real question... by story645 · · Score: 1

      What we do want, and I'm sure lots of my fellow CS students will agree with me on this, is females that are equally attractive and smart as we are. Oh and they have to be into geek stuff, like Star Trek and RPG games :) I would give my left testicle for a girl like that.

      As a girl who probably meets all those criteria, I've gotta ask if that's really true. Sure, you say you want a girl like that, but in my experience I get relegated to the "just friends" bin as fast as guys do with their female friends. (Maybe it's the crazy religious thing that's killing me?)

      --
      open source modern art: laser taggi
    17. Re:The real question... by Rycross · · Score: 1

      I am marrying a girl who likes Star Trek and RPG games. She's not incredibly into them, but enough to be considered nerdy. Certainly, most of the nerd girls I know usually had guys dripping off of them (even the very unattractive ones). In summary, I have no idea why you get relegated to "just friends." Could be that you're not displaying interest early enough, could be that they're too timid to take it to the next step, or it could be the "crazy religious thing" (depends on the religion and how into it you are; a lot of college guys aren't going to be interested in a no-sex-before-marriage relationship, for example).

    18. Re:The real question... by Lost+Race · · Score: 1

      My problem is the number of **attractive** girls taking my class. There are girls, and then there are girls.

      How is that a problem? Back when I was a math major in college, there were **attractive** female math majors, but my girlfriend was an **attractive** female bio/chem major.

      Thinking back further ... some of the girls in my high school math classes were reasonably pretty and pretty brainy ... which in my book is **attractive**. Of course, at that age I considered almost all girls **attractive**, so I have a hard time imagining what you're complaining about.

    19. Re:The real question... by XcepticZP · · Score: 1

      Honestly, we're probably drooling over the hottest of females, as all guys do. But at the end of the day, if we did manage to get them we'd get bored pretty quick. They can only feign interest for so long, then it becomes clear that they really _don't_ like the same things you do.

      But at the end of the day, I really have no idea as to why some of your equally geek guy friends aren't doing anything. Unlike the other poster said, I think it's them that might be too timid to take it further. But I do agree with him that the whole no sex before marriage thing is a put off. If that is the case, then maybe you'd have more luck trying to find someone that shares your religious views as well as your geek interests.

  6. Bing by goldaryn · · Score: 5, Funny

    The only correlation between math and sex that I can see: I don't get either of them

    1. Re:Bing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I get 179,000 results.

  7. Another one bites the dust by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In every field which was once exclusively male, but is now no longer, it's been claimed first, that no woman can perform alongside men; second, when the first claim is disproven, that hardly any woman can; and third, when the second claim is disproven, that maybe a few women can, but a majority lack the ability or the inclination. And every single time, as the residual sexism fades, the third claim is shown to be false as well. Business, politics, medicine: it's a familiar pattern. Now math is next on the list.

    In short, if there's a difference, it's not the sex, it's the sexism. Anyone who can't acknowledge this is a bigot and a twit.

    Men and women are different, yadda yadda. Yes, they are, and they may be even be different in ways that affect performance at certain jobs. But every time the issue is put to the test, we see that those differences are not nearly as signficant as the bigots desperately believe. The difference in means between the sexes, or any other groups into which people can conveniently be divided, is far smaller than the variances between individuals.

    --
    The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    1. Re:Another one bites the dust by Rycross · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, I'd argue that its pretty well established that women can't compete in raw strength to the same level as men, so in many athletic fields they can't. But for anything not involving muscle mass, the evidence (overwhelmingly) indicates that aptitude discrepancies between genders is a problem of social expectations.

    2. Re:Another one bites the dust by thedonger · · Score: 1

      It is likely that given enough time that would even out, too, though I wouldn't want to be looking for sex in that future.

      --
      Help fight poverty: Punch a poor person.
    3. Re:Another one bites the dust by harryandthehenderson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, I'd argue that its pretty well established that women can't compete in raw strength to the same level as men, so in many athletic fields they can't.

      I'd say that's inaccurate, too. It would be more accurate to say that the top end of all women can't reach the level of raw strength as that of the top end of all men. There are many women who are stronger and faster than a number of men.

    4. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not this again.
      Look, not everyone is sexist and ignorant, it's just that those who aren't don't go around yelling about it; so it seems that way. Sure there are a few assholes who somewhere got the idea that because most females don't get X degree means their not good at X degree, but most reasonably people understand that there's a difference from being good at something and deciding to to get a degree in it.

      The people who try to explain to you that woman and men think differently are not the majority.

    5. Re:Another one bites the dust by Rycross · · Score: 2, Interesting

      True, although I just realized that I don't actually know whether there's a scientific basis for that thought. I recall reading that men build muscle mass more easily than women, but I have no idea if that has been empirically tested.

    6. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      someone's got to wash the dishes and burp the baby

    7. Re:Another one bites the dust by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      What about peeing contests, driving (if only cars didn't have mirrors), and sports.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    8. Re:Another one bites the dust by TrashGod · · Score: 1

      "Men and women are different, yadda yadda."

      Did you just yada-yada sexual dimorphism?

    9. Re:Another one bites the dust by Lord+Ender · · Score: 5, Interesting

      These days, women are intentionally given advantages over men, so it is NOT fair to say that women have proven equality with men.

      For example, my school had all sorts of scholarships available only to women (not men). It had free math tutoring for women (not men). It had many programs available only to women to help them academically and financially.

      If women want to display equality, they need to compete on equal ground.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    10. Re:Another one bites the dust by Nevyn · · Score: 1

      when the second claim is disproven, that maybe a few women can, but a majority lack the ability or the inclination. And every single time, as the residual sexism fades, the third claim is shown to be false as well. Business, politics, medicine: it's a familiar pattern. Now math is next on the list.

      While I personally agree with your overall point, that the gender divide is mostly a social problem, I don't think the above is proven yet.

      We aren't anywhere close to 50% women in politics (and when Hilary was running, her gender seemed to be a much bigger issue for "was she qualified" than being non-white was for Obama).

      Women are still generally paid less in business, don't rise as high and I don't see a lot of Women doctors (esp. if you discount paediatrics and OBGYNs).

      Also IMO there seem to still be a huge number of women who think having a child is a huge achievement. So in general I think you are being a bit optimistic about the current state of the world :).

      --
      ustr: Managed string API with ave. 44% overhead over strdup(), for 0-20B
    11. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your error is that you automatically jump to bigotry. maybe women dont like math as much? why is it that every single time someone's pet cross section of society is underrepresented somewhere, white straight male bigotry is the assumed cause? that in it self smells of bigotry.

    12. Re:Another one bites the dust by CorporateSuit · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Men and women are different, yadda yadda. Yes, they are, and they may be even be different in ways that affect performance at certain jobs. But every time the issue is put to the test, we see that those differences are not nearly as signficant as the bigots desperately believe. The difference in means between the sexes, or any other groups into which people can conveniently be divided, is far smaller than the variances between individuals.

      Chemically, testosterone and estrogen have different, powerful effects on the brain and body. Be careful not to call people "bigots" because they celebrate this diversity and seek out the advantages it contains, or you must call yourself a bigot for your intolerance toward anyone who thinks that any notable differences are an evil that needs to be squashed. Yes, with extra effort, one sex can almost always measurably outperform the opposite sex where the opposite sex is more fitted, biologically, to a purpose -- but that doesn't reinforce your point; it contradicts it. If a woman and a man can perform equally at math, but the woman has to study n% longer, then the man is inherently better at math. That's what inherency means. It's not politically correct, but it's nature... however, I vehemently agree that the product of nurture and identity should always have the /choice/ to agree with nature or to struggle to see if it can obtain something better. If a woman chooses to study n% longer than the man to perform equally at math, her identity shows that she would be the better mathematician -- because she's more willing to put forth the necessary effort-- but don't hate or belittle people because they accept what nature has given us as a gift, rather than viewing it as a curse.

      --
      I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
    13. Re:Another one bites the dust by Narpak · · Score: 1

      The difference in means between the sexes, or any other groups into which people can conveniently be divided, is far smaller than the variances between individuals.

      I agree. While genetic differences, between sexes and ethnic groups, could probably affect the body and physical development of the individual. I would argue that for the significant majority the main factors would be intellectual stimulation during the formative years, complimented by study, practice and dedication when it comes to their performance in all fields; including math.

    14. Re:Another one bites the dust by lgw · · Score: 1

      Also IMO there seem to still be a huge number of women who think having a child is a huge achievement. So in general I think you are being a bit optimistic about the current state of the world

      Having children is a pretty damned important accomplishment for the future of our species. In most modern cultures, having two or fewer children per woman is the norm. Without some women having a third child, humans have no future.

      Also, why should equal representation of the sexes in all fields even be a goal? Life is far more interesting with cultural differences between men and women, and differences in interests (genetic or cultural) should reflect in differences in populations in some fields.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    15. Re:Another one bites the dust by MrMr · · Score: 2, Informative

      Testosterone helps build muscle mass. Men have higher natural testosterone levels
      Men and women will get equal physical strength when equal amounts of steroids (anabolic or androgen) circulate in the blood stream.

    16. Re:Another one bites the dust by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      In every field which was once exclusively male, but is now no longer, it's been claimed first, that no woman can perform alongside men; second, when the first claim is disproven, that hardly any woman can; and third, when the second claim is disproven, that maybe a few women can, but a majority lack the ability or the inclination. And every single time, as the residual sexism fades, the third claim is shown to be false as well.

      Incorrect. As the study in TFA shows, there's no inherent different between men and women WRT math ability, but there most certainly is a different in inclination, or interest. The reason 70% of math degrees go to men is simple: women aren't as interested in it. The reasons for that are cultural of course. Women tend to be more interested in majors such as music and theater than men. That's why there's very few women in engineering. It's just not something that interests them that much. In other cultures, it's different; there's lots of Indian women in engineering here in the US, for instance. Of course, this observation can be extended beyond sexes: Americans of both sexes tend to not be very interested in engineering as a profession, so most engineering students these days are foreigners. That's because Americans are generally interested in things that don't involve much math or science, and are more interested in things like real estate and sports.

      There's nothing bigoted about observing that different groups of people are interested in different things.

    17. Re:Another one bites the dust by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Men and women do think differently, and that has been all but exhaustively proven scientifically. However, as a rule, men and women do equally well on broad measures of intelligence. And while men and women differ as to what areas they tend to do well in, either can do mathematics equally well. It's just that men and women will generally take (and may even require) different approaches to learning. It's not a bad thing, it's a good thing.

    18. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well written flamebait ma'am.

      In other news: women are not stupid. Now move along.

    19. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Women are still generally paid less in business, don't rise as high...

      I am tired of this crap. No one has handed me any promotions, and I have worked my ass off for the money I have made. I doubled my annual salary in seven years on my current job, and my dick had nothing to with it.

    20. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In short, if there's a difference, it's not the sex, it's the sexism. Anyone who can't acknowledge this is a bigot and a twit.

      Impressive argument, there. I am also outraged at the sexism at the birthing centers. Would you believe they wouldn't give me a bed, just because of my gender!

      The fact is that mean intelligence is close enough between men and women that the difference, if any exists, hardly matters. However, men vary more among each other in ability, so there are more highly capable men and more highly incapable men than women, and this is significant for fields such as mathematics, where you have to be at the tail of the distribution to even be able to enter the field. This also means that the most brain-dead and dangerous jobs are mostly occupied by men, and that there are more highly unintelligent men compared to women.

      Of course, the actual ratio of men to women in any field is not just a question of base ability in the population. If many more men are interested in mathematics at a high level than women, but for political reasons, we hire the same amount of women as men, then of course the women are going to be much less capable than the men, simply because they are chosen from a much smaller group. Even if as many men as women were in a position to contribute to mathematics, if more of the men were actually interested, there would be more men in the field.

      To just conclude that any difference between men and women must be due to discrimination is much like assuming God did whatever you don't otherwise know how to explain. It's not that there couldn't possibly be a God which created everything, it's that you actually DO have to argue that this is the case using valid arguments.

    21. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I don't disagree that the gap is shrinking but it's ignorant to label people bigots because they believe there may be differences between genders and even races.

      What we mustn't do, is assume there are differences without proof, but similarly we mustn't hinder people who do try to do research and prove these differences, it seems naive to think that the only differences between sexes and races are what we can judge from the outside.

      The biggest issue with research into this kind of thing is that it is in itself dangerous and has implications in paving the way for people to discriminate based on those differences.

      "In short, if there's a difference, it's not the sex, it's the sexism. Anyone who can't acknowledge this is a bigot and a twit."

      Can you prove it? If not, then don't make such a claim, else you're as ignorant as someone who discriminates based upon the assumption that there is. Whilst I'm in no way suggesting that the gap does exist, I can certainly see plenty of room for that to be the case in light of the article's discussion, it mentions for example that more females are taking calculus closing the gap, but this doesn't necessarily mean that females are equally as good at calculus, it just means they're now equally as interested in it. Because of inherent differences between sexes and the way sexes are treated there is no way to be certain that the results those students taking it get are a good judge either. Now again, I'm not saying females are worse at calculus in general but I am saying the possibility exists for that to be true and that's key here.

      We shouldn't be insulting, defaming or labelling people based on what they think when there is certainly room for what they think to be true because that just forces people to shy away from properly researching the subject and it is not your place or any other individual's place to pressure someone away from research or thought about an idea just because you don't like that idea, it is society as a whole that decides the moral standards that define whether we do or don't want to know about differences between sexes and races.

      It is a very difficult area to discuss already because it certainly does of course touch raw nerves, but it's an area that's also full of double standards. I have for example encountered women who would gladly tell me about how research has proven women are better at multi-tasking whilst simultaneously being entirely against the idea they may be weaker in other areas. Similarly at Leeds University a professor Dr Frank Ellis was suspended after student protests about research he had done suggesting that black people were generally less intelligent than white people, but who wants to bet that some of those protesting were black males who would be happy with the suggestion that black men generally have larger genitalia for example? The real response to such research should be to review it and perform a study to try and disprove the research, but alas due to the danger of research in such an area to an individual and his employer is so great that we wont know any time soon.

      We've got to realise that we certainly are different in some ways, may or may not be in others, but should probably find out creating taboos through fear of merely hurting someone's feelings is a good way to hold the human race back, particularly if that person can't learn to be proud that they are who they are rather than take it as an insult. Discrimination shouldn't occur based on that though, because there's always the chance of being above what is defined as the average for your specific race/gender. More importantly perhaos, hard work will almost certainly be enough to negate any minor genetic difference anyway.

    22. Re:Another one bites the dust by BaronHethorSamedi · · Score: 1

      In short, if there's a difference, it's not the sex, it's the sexism. Anyone who can't acknowledge this is a bigot and a twit.

      BIGOT, n. One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion that you do not entertain.
      --Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

      I mean, really. You state that the the difference is not in the sex itself, but in the sexism, and then acknowledge differences between the sexes that possibly affect job performance.

      How about this proposition: men, in the aggregate, are more physically and mentally predisposed than women to certain activities, and vice versa.

      The bolded language is the key here. It suggests that men and women (as you acknowledge) are different. This is not the same as saying that "women can't do math" or "men don't make good school teachers." It's possible (and very sensible) to acknowledge biological and behavioral differences in a way that does not set up barriers to employment or other life activities to persons of either sex wishing to engage in them.

    23. Re:Another one bites the dust by lavacano201014 · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't the older sibling do that?

      --
      A wise man once said, "Where is my other quotation mark?
    24. Re:Another one bites the dust by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 4, Informative

      In short, if there's a difference, it's not the sex, it's the sexism. Anyone who can't acknowledge this is a bigot and a twit.

      That comment is just as ignorant as anything a bigot would say.

      I'd say it's not boys stopping girls from taking maths in school and it's not boys stopping girls from taking programming. In fact, from my experience in school, and what I've seen, most school aged boys would love to have a girl that was into something that they found cool.

      Sure sexism plays a part in some instances but like everything else it's not black and white. A lot of girls don't do math because that's not where the cool boys are. Their social standing would take a hit if they were caught carrying a calculator and hanging around the nerds and yes believe it or not, a girl's self image means a lot. Hence the market for make-up, push-up bras, high-heel shoes, fad diets and anything else that will make them feel like they're something they're not.

      And no those things aren't forced upon girls either. Which is why girls with a lot of image issues (and especially food issues) go through a lot of boyfriends because the guy gets fed up listing to them talk about what they're not going to eat today.

      It's not the case with all woman, because again, not everything is black and white, but a lot of girls compete amongst each other to attract boys and math will only attract nerds in their eyes.

      So let's not be ignorant and just blame everything on men being some sort of evil being because it's simply not true.

    25. Re:Another one bites the dust by lavacano201014 · · Score: 1

      In a perfect world, there's no such thing as bigotry. Unfortunately, we can't have a perfect world, because human nature tends to screw that up.

      --
      A wise man once said, "Where is my other quotation mark?
    26. Re:Another one bites the dust by Bemopolis · · Score: 0

      If women want to display equality, they need to compete on equal ground.

      And if women are expected to compete without advantages, the ground on which they compete has to be equal. Which means an academic environment absent of sexism. And a financial environment with equal pay for equal work, and gender-neutral access to that work. It has been shown repeatedly in the history of America that the easiest (and often only) method for equalizing the ground is to elevate a significant population of qualified females into a heavily male-dominated field.

      This also produces whining, but it seems a small cost at the end of the day.

      --
      "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
    27. Re:Another one bites the dust by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      It would be more fair to compare top men to top women. Really, comparing an average woman to a fat man is just a bit silly because fat men wouldn't perform in sport on a paid competitive level (bowling is not a sport). Plus it's like saying you can run faster than Stephen Hawking. You don't really use that as a selling point.

    28. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree,

      At my University, there were a bunch of scholarships/bursaries for Engineering. As a male you needed an 85 average, as a female you only needed a 70, which was pretty much required to stay in Engineering at all.

      I'm all for allowing women to study in whatever field they want, but they should have to meet the same requirements as the rest of us for these sorts of things. If you are exceptional in your knowledge area you get a bonus. If you're a women and you're mediocre at it you still get the bonus.

    29. Re:Another one bites the dust by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If women want to display equality, they need to compete on equal ground.

      By which you mean; accept the multitude of barriers and prejudices I and others put against them.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    30. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Near where I live a gym was sued because it had seperate weight rooms for men and woman. Now they have to share yet there is a healthclub chain that explicitly caters to woman and no one says a peep. Gotta love reverse sexism!

    31. Re:Another one bites the dust by dhall · · Score: 1

      Muscle mass might also have high social pressures. What we consider "attractive" in the opposite sex can drive this more than anything. Physiologically it has been proven that there are inherent differences between the sexes. Sure that can be overcome artifically via hormones, and maybe our future is one where we're all unisexual bipedal equivalents of androgynous amoeba. That's a lot of genetic behavior to rewire.

    32. Re:Another one bites the dust by cynical+kane · · Score: 1

      More like the top end of all women can't reach the level of raw strength as the average man.

      According to http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards.htm , the intermediate man who's been training (not necessarily in weights) for up to two years can be expected to lift at least about as much in every exercise as a competitive female strength athlete of the same weight. For some exercises it's not even close--a puny gym novice can bench with the best women weightlifters. Nevermind the massive weight differences between the two.

      It's fun to pretend to be "accurate" in the name of political correctness, but your "accurate" portrayal of "many women" being stronger than "a number of men" is disingenuous, unless by "many women" you actually meant "a small percentage of women."

    33. Re:Another one bites the dust by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If a woman and a man can perform equally at math, but the woman has to study n% longer, then the man is inherently better at math.

      As a mathematician, I can assure you that the time a student must spend to learn the material is no indicator of their ability with it.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    34. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Muscle mass isn't the only issue in sports. There's also the fact that men tend to have faster metabolisms, which translates to an increased rate of energy conversion.

      There are a few sports where a slower metabolism works to women's advantage, e.g. free-diving (slower metabolism means oxygen lasts longer) and long-distance swimming, particularly in cold water (slower metabolism means less heat loss). And the gender gap for running gets closer with increasing distance. It has been theorised that men and women might be equal for 24-hour races, but it's such a niche sport that any trend is swamped by sampling error.

      But these sports don't get anything like the attention of track and field, which strongly favour a faster metabolism.

    35. Re:Another one bites the dust by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      Well, I'd argue that its pretty well established that women can't compete in raw strength to the same level as men, so in many athletic fields they can't. But for anything not involving muscle mass, the evidence (overwhelmingly) indicates that aptitude discrepancies between genders is a problem of social expectations.

      55% of men are stronger than 50% of women. The two bell curves overlap significantly... it's not __/\__/\__, but _//\\_.

    36. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      At a previous workplace there was a role in one of our sister IT departments for a new middle manager. There were 8 candidates, but only 2 ever real had a chance, one was male, the other female, the male far more experienced, a much better work ethic and simply much better suited to the job. The female got it however, the interview team consisted of 2 males and 1 female, the female was the existing helpdesk manager. The two males she'd spent day in day out flirting with (in fact, that's pretty much all she did, she was a crap worker). I got on quite well with the helpdesk manager and she said she'd actually voted for the male who deserved it, but was told by one of the other two (who was her superior) that she was to change her mind to the female to support equality in the workplace.

      Realistically, situations like this I do not believe are massively uncommon. Some females argue that using their sex to get further in the workplace is fair game, but I do not see how this can be true when it puts males at a real inherent disadvantage - even if there were more female managers in the workplace for males to flirt with in reverse the reality is that males are far more receptive to flirting than females most the time.

      Females then have to accept that if they truly want to see equality that they must refrain from this kind of view of things, they cannot on one had suggest they are treated unfairly in a bad way, then on the other take advantage of their sex to get treated unfairly but in their favour.

      I'm all for equality, but a lot of what's sold under the equality banner is really just more inequality.

    37. Re:Another one bites the dust by pbhj · · Score: 1

      Anyone who can't acknowledge this is a bigot and a twit.

      If you're argument were strong enough to stand on it's own then you wouldn't need such name-calling.

      Try again, this time, try to be logical, scientific or at least adult about your argument whatever it may be. Then at least it may warrant a thoughtful response. I know this is teh intarwebs, but come on, you appear to be of reasonable intelligence, can't you let your arguments stand on their own without flaming ad-hominems.

      The only response you deserve currently is: "Anyone who thinks women are as intelligent as men is a mindless idiot."

      Anyhow, the abstract:

      the size of the [supposed gender] gap varies over differing cultures and correlates with the general degree of gender inequality in the culture

      So which is more equal, being expected to die for your country or being expected to look after the kids. Men take bigger risks which pays off in certain fields - they're both the most intelligent and high paid and the least intelligent and low paid. Men are disposable by virtue of biology (few men are needed versus the number of women). They get the limellight as the victors but are as often the vanquished. The men taking the [metaphorical and actual] spoils of war and are noticed and envied by the women with no thought spared for the piled bloody agony of bodies left on the battle field.

    38. Re:Another one bites the dust by Xest · · Score: 1

      "Women are still generally paid less in business, don't rise as high"

      The problem I notice is a lot of women are still happy to be the ones playing role of parent and so expect to be able to finish early to pick up the kids, drop out of work at the drop of a hat to pick up a sick kid and that sort of thing. The reality is that a lot of families need a parent around and can't afford childcare, and their employers can't provide it and so one of them has to take that role, if females are choosing that role they can't simultaneously expect businesses to treat them equally to the males who aren't playing that parental role and so can concentrate more on the needs of their employer. I have met some women who feel they are entitled to do as well as the men who come in at 7:30am and work until 5:30pm when they role in at 9am having dropped the kids at school and have to leave at 3pm to pick them up, that simply can't be treated as equality as it's really not. That's not to say some businesses can't perhaps allow more flexible working to make the balance fairer of course, so employers still aren't all totally without blame but not every company really can do more.

      "I don't see a lot of Women doctors (esp. if you discount paediatrics and OBGYNs)."

      That's interesting, in the UK I'd say the amount of doctors female and male is quite balanced from personal experience although maybe the stats say differently? Which country's healthcare system are you referring to, the US?

    39. Re:Another one bites the dust by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah? Well, men do now and always will dominate the field of writing their names in the snow while taking a leak, so there!

      The difference in means between the sexes, or any other groups into which people can conveniently be divided, is far smaller than the variances between individuals. Absolutely correct. So, what's wrong with a child having two mommies or two daddies, as opposed to one of each gender?

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    40. Re:Another one bites the dust by ThatsLoseNotLoose · · Score: 1

      In short, if there's a difference, it's not the sex, it's the sexism. Anyone who can't acknowledge this is a bigot and a twit.

      Personally, I will not consider this issue closed until that attitude has been purged.

      It sounds like you want to open a scientific discussion by throwing out the null hypothesis, then preemptively denouncing everybody as a bigot just in case they don't see things your way.

      Over the last 20 years, it's been unsafe to posit that men and women have different innate abilities. The studies that ARE published tend to land on Slashdot with so much loaded language in the summary that it's clear that the submitter has their own axe to grind. Not exactly lending credibility to TFA.

      Hit me up when we're past public denouncements as a research method. I won't be holding my breath.

    41. Re:Another one bites the dust by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      It had free math tutoring for women (not men). You misunderstand the purpose of this "tutoring"... "Hey, baby, why don't you come over to my place and I'll... tutor you all night long!" You probably think letting ladies into nightclubs for free is an unfair advantage too...

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    42. Re:Another one bites the dust by LandDolphin · · Score: 1

      So all of this is moot as the population in developed countries drops and the population in under developed countries, where often women don't have equal rights, sky rockets.

      --
      Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
    43. Re:Another one bites the dust by BlueShirt · · Score: 1
      I agree with you most heartily. This is a ridiculuous debate fostered by non-mathematicians, as I see it. Real mathematicians would rate Emmy Noether as one of the best, ever.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmy_Noether

      From the Wikipedia article:

      In the spring of 1915, Noether was invited to return to the University of Göttingen by David Hilbert and Felix Klein. Their effort to recruit her, however, was blocked by the philologists and historians among the philosophical faculty: women, they insisted, should not become privatdozent. One faculty member protested: "What will our soldiers think when they return to the university and find that they are required to learn at the feet of a woman?" Hilbert responded with indignation, stating, "I do not see that the sex of the candidate is an argument against her admission as privatdozent. After all, we are a university, not a bath house."

    44. Re:Another one bites the dust by Lord+Ender · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Which means an academic environment absent of absent of sexism.

      The only sexism I've seen in academia is anti-male sexism. The boys get done with class, head to work to make money to pay tuition, then come home exhausted and try to figure out their homework before bed. The girls get done with class, have all evening to do the homework, and get their hands held through the hard problems by tutors whenever they have trouble.

      That's clear, direct sexism. I'm against sexism. Show me such sexism against males or females, and I'm against it. You endorse sexism. You make me sick. Male professors who give males As and females Fs for the same answer should be fired. The same is true for college administrators who give females money and help while giving males the finger. Fuck sexism, and fuck you.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    45. Re:Another one bites the dust by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nah...

      Male's natural advantage in aggression causes a difference over time unless society actively corrects for it.

      Trivial case,
      Two scientists make the same amount of money.
      One asks for raises and pursues them.
      The other hopes the boss will notice and give them a raise.

      One leaves and gets a job paying 25% more.
      The other stays and gets an 8% raise.

      One leaves and gets a more prestigious position.
      The other stays and competes for the few positions available.

      Now run that cycle for a few generations and we are right back where we are now.
      In the real world, in those fields where aggression matters, it still demands a premium or gains extra success over time.

      Physical strength no longer demands a premium.

      In some cases, aggression is a draw back-- in those fields, men do worse.

      I agree there is a ton of built in sexism, racism, and historical privilege and that is slowly being rooted out.
      But having gone from low aggression to high aggression- (via hormone therapy), I see the difference it makes for me.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    46. Re:Another one bites the dust by TheLink · · Score: 1

      For a lot of things it's the "top few" that make the difference. Being the top 2000th tennis player doesn't count for that much. I doubt the top 2000th mathematician in the world is going to advance the field of mathematics that much.

      So I would be interested to see if the extreme top women in math can really match the extreme top men, and how many of that level are there.

      The study doesn't really show this. I don't recall many math geniuses who do the "great stuff" going for math competitions. PhDs don't really prove that much either.

      FWIW a female professor in China and her team have done pretty good work finding flaws in MD5 and SHA1. That's the sort of data point I'd find relevant. A significant advance in the field (and a headache to others ;) ).

      --
    47. Re:Another one bites the dust by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Pretty clear that we are past the carrying capacity already given the number of systems collapsing.
      More kids are just going to hasten a particularly nasty end game scenario. I hope it happens in 50 years and not 30 years.
      But it will happen.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    48. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I'd say that's inaccurate, too. It would be more accurate to say that the top end of all women can't reach the level of raw strength as that of the top end of all men. There are many women who are stronger and faster than a number of men.

      While true, I find your last sentence rather vague, 'many' and 'a number' being undefined. It would be more informative to state that men are, on average, stronger than women.

    49. Re:Another one bites the dust by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Let me speak from the programming field and my math in college.

      If you *freaking love math and programming* you will probably do better at it.

      If you work on math and programming problems in your spare time, you will probably do better at it.

      I know female math genius's exist. But in my 200 some odd fellow students, perhaps 3 of the females were really interested beyond getting "a good job" while 60% of the males were sincerely interested and "got" it.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    50. Re:Another one bites the dust by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      That's exactly right. These Western ideals of gender equality, free speech, etc. are quickly becoming obsolete as we're being overrun by people from less developed cultures, who are not adopting these ideals and are pushing their own instead.

      With the way that those people are reproducing, and Westerners are not, I think all these things Westerners have created and fought for will be lost in 100-200 years.

      However, Westerners having 16 kids like some people suggest isn't the answer either. The way we sustain the culture we've built is by having small families and devoting more resources to each person.

      The world isn't going to be a pretty place in a couple hundred years, unless mother nature takes care of this problem with a good pandemic or two.

    51. Re:Another one bites the dust by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

      If women want to display equality, they need to compete on equal ground.

      By which you mean; accept the multitude of barriers and prejudices I and others put against them.

      Well, maybe "accept" isn't the right word - but there's no reason they couldn't work within the system. Instead of free tutoring, for instance, they could offer sexual favors for tutoring... ...I could be a tutor...

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
    52. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are people closer to this than you think. Look up CAH. I'm one of those people with female outerparts and ambiguous brains. There are a lot of those girls out there who don't think very much like girls, and chances are those nerd girls you're looking at are actually rather ambiguous in gender... which rather explains their performance in the bedroom.

      (posted anon. 'cause of the stalkers :P)

    53. Re:Another one bites the dust by Gospodin · · Score: 1

      Not to mention available jobs (in the academy in particular) following graduation.

      When I was an undergrad I knew a married couple both getting their PhDs at the same time. The wife had six job offers. The husband had zero (at the time; he might've had more later, after we lost contact). As far as I could tell they were about equally capable.

      One anecdote does not a theory prove, but I'll bet this happens a lot.

      --
      ...following the principles of Heisenburger's Uncertain Cat...
    54. Re:Another one bites the dust by mcvos · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Testosterone helps build muscle mass. Men have higher natural testosterone levels
      Men and women will get equal physical strength when equal amounts of steroids (anabolic or androgen) circulate in the blood stream.

      But how many women are willing to have manly looks to achieve equality?

    55. Re:Another one bites the dust by MrMista_B · · Score: 0

      Then the males you're referencing are dumb for not taking advantage of the tutors available.

      Are are you saying the women are having their 'hands held' because they use tutors?

      College administrators who give males money and help too. That's their job.

      Forgive me, but you sound like you're trying to blame anyone but yourself, for whatever it is that's making you lash out so angrily.

    56. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are differences in learning styles between men and women.

      What happens is something like this:

      1. gender gap is identified
      2. teaching styles are adjusted to promote the subject among women
      3. women's performance improves, implicitly at the expense of men's performance.
      4. gender gap is closed, everyone is happy
    57. Re:Another one bites the dust by Thiez · · Score: 1

      Where did you get those numbers? Are you seriously suggesting 50% of all women are stronger than 45% of all men? Based on personal experience that doesn't sound right, but I have been wrong before. Can has sources?

    58. Re:Another one bites the dust by mcvos · · Score: 1

      I have met some women who feel they are entitled to do as well as the men who come in at 7:30am and work until 5:30pm when they role in at 9am having dropped the kids at school and have to leave at 3pm to pick them up,

      Are the men at your work all childless, or do they all skimp on their parental duties?

    59. Re:Another one bites the dust by Raindance · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In short, if there's a difference, it's not the sex, it's the sexism. Anyone who can't acknowledge this is a bigot and a twit.

      If I had modpoints I would certainly downmod you for injecting kneejerk hysteria into what should be a reasonable and empirical discussion. Preemptively calling anyone who doesn't share your beliefs bigots and twits is really incredible bad form.

      In every field which was once exclusively male, but is now no longer, it's been claimed first, that no woman can perform alongside men; second, when the first claim is disproven, that hardly any woman can; and third, when the second claim is disproven, that maybe a few women can, but a majority lack the ability or the inclination. And every single time, as the residual sexism fades, the third claim is shown to be false as well. Business, politics, medicine: it's a familiar pattern. Now math is next on the list.

      I think we can all agree that there has been real sexism in certain careers, and that it's been detrimental to society. We're moving to a better place now. It's not perfect, but it's getting better.

      I'm all for equality in opportunity. But I cringe when I see people pointing to an unequal distribution of genders in a career as evidence of evil discrimination. It seems to be outside the realm of allowed possibility that perhaps men, on average, enjoy being computer programmers more than women? Or that women enjoy being preschool teachers more than men? We'd be absolutely wrong to hinder in any way people who wish to pursue any career path, whether it's traditional for their gender or not. And we should encourage both genders to pursue all sorts of goals, especially when there's institutional intertia in the equation. But I think it's naive to think that, different as men and women are, that all careers will equalize out to a 50/50 distribution over time. Men and women are stochastically interested in different things. And that's okay.

      Anyway, there's also the possible issue of differing standard deviations in traits between the sexes, which may or may not play into these questions of achievement, and is a scientific, empirical question (and a two-edged sword for any gender with the larger standard deviation, of course).

    60. Re:Another one bites the dust by sjbe · · Score: 1

      I don't see a lot of Women doctors

      You haven't been looking very carefully. As of two years ago approximately 42% of internal medicine interns were women. By next year 33% of doctors are expected to be women and that number is rising. Yes the profession used to be heavily male dominated and still is among older doctors but women overwhelmingly dominate most other areas of medicine and their numbers are rising fast as doctors as well. My wife happens to be a physician so I see it first hand.

    61. Re:Another one bites the dust by ciggieposeur · · Score: 1

      That's why there's very few women in engineering.

      Have you been to college recently? In the current crop of 18-25 year-olds ("millenials" ?), women are quite well represented in engineering departments.

    62. Re:Another one bites the dust by ppanon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Malcolm Gladwell and others say that you are incorrect and that in fact practice is a huge factor. Now, I suspect that a certain level of talent or inclination is necessary for someone to be willing to put in the 10,000 hours necessary to become exceptional. People don't tend to put in that much time if they have no aptitude and show no improvement. But there is a strong indication that you can't rely on talent; you really do have to practice a lot to get to Carnegie Hall. Also read the first comment here.

      Now, you can put in a lot of time without any progress. There's a saying that you have dancers who have been dancing for twenty years, and you have dancers who have danced for a year twenty times. One can even refer to the old schoolyard taunt, "Yeah, and I bet Grade 7 was the best 3 years of your life!". Time is not equivalent to effort. The GP referred to one and you confused it with the other.

      --
      Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
    63. Re:Another one bites the dust by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      This is the inherent problem of using quantity adjectives: "Many" and "a number of" can mean a hell of a lot of different things, so much so that the GP's comment is meaningless.

      Most people(err...many...er...what do I mean?)--Most people I know (more precise) cannot comprehend this. They throw around non-specific quantity adjectives and expect to be understood. Problem is, "a lot" can mean 1,000 or 1,000,000,000--it just depends on context.

    64. Re:Another one bites the dust by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Chemically, testosterone and estrogen have different, powerful effects on the brain and body. Be careful not to call people "bigots" because they celebrate this diversity and seek out the advantages it contains, or you must call yourself a bigot for your intolerance toward anyone who thinks that any notable differences are an evil that needs to be squashed.

      That's not why they're called bigots. They're called bigots because they assume that demonstrable differences between sexes naturally and obviously cause whatever differences their society had already assumed to be true. For example, the idea that testosterone levels would directly inform mathematical ability. Is there any scientific basis for this connection? No, but men and women are different in this easily quantifiable way, therefore it's equally possible that our stereotype that women aren't as good at math as men is actually a biological reality!

      It's hilarious (in that particular sad way) how over time people come up with justifications for how the prejudices of their particular time and place are actually biological fact, even as those prejudices change! So early in the 1900s, the US Army IQ testing "proved" what everyone already knew -- that Irish and Italian immigrants were inherently dumber. But now that's not true any more. What could have changed? Did the genetics of the Irish change so much in the last 100 years that they no longer suffer from inherent biological disadvantages? Or was it that the culture they were living in changed? Naw that couldn't be it. In the 1990s you wouldn't have even thought to suggest something as dumb as "the Irish are inherently dumb", but The Bell Curve could still "prove" that lingering prejudice against Africans wasn't prejudice at all, but rather a prescient insight into biological truth. I'm sure if they'd bothered to try to dress their prejudices up in the garb of science, the Romans could have "proved" that every barbarian was biologically incapable of the superior thoughts of a Roman citizen.

      Show me a study that shows one group has a biological advantage over another that doesn't exactly match the pre-existing biases in the particular culture being studied, and I'll start to listen.

      Which is why this study is so interesting. By looking around the world, it helps get around the issue of specific cultural biases. And unless you're going to suggest that South Korean women are genetically significantly different from American women with regard to math (I guess they produce more testosterone?) then you're going to have a hard time maintaining the position that the gender gap that exists in the U.S. is due to biology and not culture.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    65. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only sexism I've seen in academia is anti-male sexism.

      Then either you are a) not perceptive enough, b) dishonest with yourself, or c) dishonest with us.

      "a" could include being narrow-minded enough that you think that everything you've described is the entire picture, and I suspect this is the most plausible case. It is far, far more complicated than you think it is, but I suspect you will be content to remain ignorant as long as it is to your own benefit.

    66. Re:Another one bites the dust by level_headed_midwest · · Score: 1

      There are just as many of not more women entering medicine than men. The classes at my medical school in the past decade ranged between 50-54% female- my particular class is 52% female. From what I have seen looking at national statistics, the percentage of male students keeps falling year after year, just like in undergrad (national averages say something near 60% of undergraduate students are female.)

      --
      Just "gittin-r-done," day after day.
    67. Re:Another one bites the dust by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      What exactly in your view does the "gift" of estrogen do for women besides make them weaker, stupider, and rounder? The OP's point is that the difference in the type of intelligence is basically insignificant, at least below the genius level. A person's choice for breakfast is as likely to affect his/her mathematical performance as his/her gender.

      The main difference in my opinion is that women can get laid whenever they want, and thus have less sexual frustration motivating their academic pursuits. Seriously--most females study less, not more, than males.

    68. Re:Another one bites the dust by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      No, I graduated in 1998, and haven't been back since.

      But what kind of women are you talking about anyway? American women, or foreigners? When I was in college, there were a few women, but almost all of them were Chinese or Indian. Not that this is a bad thing, but that's a different culture. Also, back then, at least half the students were foreigners. I've heard it's only gotten worse, as Americans have pretty much abandoned engineering.

      Again, I'm not trying to knock anyone from other countries, I'm pointing out that 1) people from other cultures are different from Americans, and their female representation in science/engineering shows that there's nothing genetic to the idea that women don't like math, it's just cultural, and 2) America is in trouble if Americans aren't interested in "hard" subjects any more and think that they can just let people from other countries do all the hard work while they sit around selling each other houses and pouring each other coffee drinks.

    69. Re:Another one bites the dust by hedwards · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's hardly a small price to pay. There's going to be hell to pay in the next few decades when the consequences of taking it easy on girls becomes clear.

      It's not that I don't think women can compete, it's that they aren't being required to. In order to "fix" the gender gap in math, most schools in the US have removed most of the technical bits to make it more a function of finding the answer as opposed to solving the problem. I'm all for equality, but changing the courses to assert sexism in the opposite direction serves no useful function. It's sort of like if in the 19th century we'd "solved" slavery by switch whites for blacks.

      Additionally, I take it you haven't been to college recently because most college students are women, most schools have a large number of female faculty. Which leads me to wonder where all this mysterious sexism is coming from, because I didn't see it. Most of the classes I was in had women at the head of the class.

      As for equal pay for equal work, that's bunk. The studies for that hold up well, as long as you don't attempt to measure the other portions of a worker's compensation, at which point it all falls apart pretty well. Making up stories to justify replacing the patriarchy with a matriarchy is hardly a constructive use of resources. At the end of the day it's equal cost for equal production and there's no evidence that women are being screwed in that sense. Female CEOs don't pay women more, they pay men less mainly because the compensation provided to women is equitable based upon the decisions they may.

      Now if you want to argue that the burden of things like raising children leads to unfair decisions, I'm not going to stop you, seems like a reasonable assumption.

    70. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sexism is inherently in the eye of the beholder. Just like the activist minded will cry racism any time a non-white is fired (because that MUST be the reason) then any denial of a woman in a traditionally male field must be due to sexism.

      The claim that woman don't get equal pay is also bogus. Either the method used to compare is flawed (trying to calculate the value of some task being done) or they are using old data. I simply don't see it currently anymore. Activists have to find rare examples of labor laws being broken to find any current examples or they simply twist the data.

      Seeing as we are producing generations of young men being denied the attention lavished on woman (and young men are paying the price for it) I'd say it wasn't a small cost we are paying.

    71. Re:Another one bites the dust by babblefrog · · Score: 1

      You made quite a jump there, from sexism in society to men being evil. You can easily have the first without the second.

      I'd guess that the idea of specific gender roles, what girls are good at vs what boys are good at, what professions should a young person of either gender go into, etc, are widespread in both men and women. This doesn't mean that men are evil. It does, however mean that sexism is still widespread.

      This is not an "us vs them" issue.

    72. Re:Another one bites the dust by ciggieposeur · · Score: 1

      I graduated BS in Computer Science in May 2000, and MS Chemical Engineering in May 2008. In the decade between a lot changed. At the undergraduate level in ChemE, there is almost exactly 1:1 male:female, about 80%+ American, with no real correlation of gender and skill (i.e. just as many top performing women as men). At the graduate level, it's more like 60/40 male:female, but also 90/10 foreign:domestic. Of the domestic students, it's still 1:1 male:female. I don't think Americans have abandoned engineering, they are (were) getting decent jobs with a BS and not seeing much point in grad school. It also doesn't help that few American companies will fund a MS/ME/PhD (but their foreign competitors will); US companies only seem to fund MBAs. (By "fund" I mean send their employee off to do full-time school for several years; most large employers will reimburse part-time university hours, but they still require their employee to work full-time.)

      I agree that we need more Americans majoring in "hard" subjects, but I can't quite blame the students for that. We have fewer engineers I think because we have fewer manufacturing facilities needing them, which will eventually lead to having less need for engineering departments. Until we have the political will to re-industrialize, we'll continue seeing a general decline in engineering interest (as a percentage of total student population -- departments are still seeing good enrollment numbers, but nothing like "pre-med" or general business majors).

    73. Re:Another one bites the dust by datababe72 · · Score: 1

      The problem is, whenever someone does a rigorous study looking for these innate differences they find... not much, or in fact, evidence to the contrary. This being slashdot, I doubt you went and read the article in the post. Had you done so, you'd find that the research being reported did NOT support the hypothesis that the reason for the differences in the number of women in academic math departments is an innate biological difference. They did not see that difference in different cultures, even in different cultures with exceptionally similar gene pools. If there is an innate biological reason for the difference, you would expect that difference to be demonstrated across cultures.

    74. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd be more pissed at the guys who fell for the flirtation. I can't stand guys in these situations who are so pathetic that they think that if they give special treatment to some woman that it'll get them laid (or close to it). No, you won't. She'll smile at best and take what she can get leaving you looking like a sap. The saleswoman is trying to sell you something, the bartender is doing her job, the applicant is trying to get hired, etc. Please, don't fall for it.

    75. Re:Another one bites the dust by Etcetera · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, I'd argue that its pretty well established that women can't compete in raw strength to the same level as men, so in many athletic fields they can't.

      I'd say that's inaccurate, too. It would be more accurate to say that the top end of all women can't reach the level of raw strength as that of the top end of all men. There are many women who are stronger and faster than a number of men.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_intelligence - variation (standard deviation) is higher in males than in females across a number of different measurement categories, including (presumably) factors that lead to any posited mathematical ability. This has been put forth to explain the "drop-off" effect in any number of fields.

      See also http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121691806472381521.html and of course, The Bell Curve...

    76. Re:Another one bites the dust by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      The only sexism I've seen in academia is anti-male sexism.

      Yeah, and the only racism you've ever seen is anti-white racism. That's because you're sheltered and oblivious.

      Try opening your eyes and looking... at this very thread! Look at how many are blandly suggesting that women are inherently inferior at math and that the gender gap is the right and natural result of biology, that ignoring this obvious truth is just being PC for the sake of being PC. Now imagine that they're talking about your obvious inferiority, and these are supposed to be not just your peers, but also your educators and role models.

      The boys get done with class, head to work to make money to pay tuition, then come home exhausted and try to figure out their homework before bed. The girls get done with class, have all evening to do the homework, and get their hands held through the hard problems by tutors whenever they have trouble.

      That's clear, direct sexism.

      WTF? No really, What The Fuck Are You Talking About?

      All the boys are working too hard to get a tutor, and all the girls have a free ride? Are you really using the male-as-breadwinner stereotype to claim the existence of anti-male sexism? That's funny, because I had a free ride and my gf busts ass making the money to go to school full time and still racks up big piles of debt. And when I was teaching in grad school, plenty of boys had time to stop by and get some tutoring.

      Yeah there are scholarships that are only available to women. Once the sexism that you don't see because it supports your preconceived notions is gone then scholarships that favor women can go away too. There are plenty available to men too, so who exactly is giving you the finger? Oh right, I forgot, this was blanket stereotyping and hyperbole day. But of course you don't do that, no no you don't support sexism. It's just those stupid girls who don't even have to work for their degrees who are at fault.

      Here's a clue: If it weren't for people like you, none of the things that are so unfair to you would need to exist. So why don't you go fuck yourself.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    77. Re:Another one bites the dust by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      In addition to building up more muscle mass, bone also develops differently in men allowing muscle attachments to bone to support greater force. Furthermore, Iseem to recall reading that there are morphologic differences between the brains of men and women.
      As far as the parent poster's idea that all differences between men and women is a product of sexism let's consider Title IX. In order to meet Title IX requirements (as interpreted by courts), colleges and universities are required to have equal opportunities for women in sports as for men. Many schools have aggressively recruited women for scholarships and still been unable to fill the slots. As a result they have felt obligated to reduce the number of men's sports teams that they field.
      Now whether this is a product of socialization or is an inherent difference between men and women, the fact is that after 35 years there are still significantly more men in college who wish to be involved in organized athletics then women. This despite the fact that women now outnumber men on the majority of college campuses.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    78. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In short, if there's a difference, it's not the sex, it's the sexism. Anyone who can't acknowledge this is a bigot and a twit.

      I'll consider myself a bigot when I see a female bricklayer.

    79. Re:Another one bites the dust by Weezul · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't believe you about the tutoring, but normally students who need full blown tutoring are lost causes.

      It's just basic biology, males are the "disposable" gender who might have zero children or might have massive armies of kids, while women are biologically constrained in heir reproductive output, and so their genes benefit more from playing safe. In particular, women have an innate advantage that "they do what society tells them" while men try to buck the system. It's hardly surprising that women do math well if you tell them to do math well, while men fuck it up just to stick it to ya. Society will eventually favor women for this one reason.

      Another important fact is that males have higher variance across most species and most traits. So you expect the smarted 1% are mostly males, which might have been all the scientists & engineers 200 years ago, but we need way more than 1% doing science & engineering today. I mean, visualize two normal distributions with the same mean and different variances, the high variance dominates the uber high end, but the low variance dominates eventually. But females are actually buying a slightly higher mean then males with that low variance, as biology can fuck up easily. So they very quickly dominate the intelligence disciplines once you need large numbers of people.

      --
      The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
    80. Re:Another one bites the dust by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      For example, my school had all sorts of scholarships available only to women (not men).

      And I knew a male engineer that won a scholarship from the Society of Women Engineers.

      If women want to display equality, they need to compete on equal ground.

      True. First, we need 50% of all mathmeticians to be women so that society accepts them as equals. Oh, that's not the case? Then we'll leave in direct "unfair" incentives because there is an ol' boys network that would otherwise keep them down.

      I find it hillarious that people like Bush are against Affirmative Action. Bush Jr. thinks that people shouldn't get a bonus to anything just because of who their parents are. However, when the C student was too poor of a scholar to get into Yale without Daddy's help, he relied on his lineage to get him what he wanted. Then acted to counteract that if it's anyone other than rich white males who get to do it with things like nepotisim and "legacy" (affirmative action for rich white people). Fuck the poor, think of the rich white men of mediocre inteligence and no skills, how are they supposed to scrape by on a few million a year from Daddy unless society props them up?

      But yes, the real problem is that there is tutoring available for women studying math. Oh the horror.

    81. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Then the males you're referencing are dumb for not taking advantage of the tutors available.

      The male is himself.

      He couldn't get a merit scholarship, so he had to get a job and couldn't go to office hours regularly. Then some damn girl who got some Encouraging Women in Sciences scholarship comes in, attends tutoring sessions, and gets an A in the class while he gets an F (even though they obviously should have gotten the same grade). After soaking in bitterness for a while, he comes to represent all boys and she comes to represent all girls. "Boys" get the finger, "girls" get free As.

    82. Re:Another one bites the dust by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      And a financial environment with equal pay for equal work, and gender-neutral access to that work.

      While it is true that women in general earn less per year than men, it is also true that women in general work fewer hours per year than men. Men, also, tend to take "high risk" jobs at a much higher rate then women. In summation, a thorough evaluation of the pay differences between men and women indicates that it results from the tendency of men and women to make different choices about their priorities in life.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    83. Re:Another one bites the dust by Deanalator · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sorry, but I have yet to meet this mythical female mathematician that only got to where she was because she had everything handed to her. Every girl I know that got into theoretical mathematics got there by being a freaking rockstar mathematician. In my experience, mediocre mathematicians are predominantly male, because females that are mediocre at math tend to go into a more accepting field.

    84. Re:Another one bites the dust by Lord+Ender · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Are you really using the male-as-breadwinner stereotype to claim the existence of anti-male sexism?"

      Stereotype? Breadwinner? What does that have to do with anything? No, the guys have to pay for school. The girls get scholarships. Hence the example of the guys having to work to pay for school. I'm sorry that wasn't clear to you. You seem like you have blinders on, so I doubt this message will get through to you, either.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    85. Re:Another one bites the dust by englishknnigits · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but you are completely wrong. If two people can learn the same thing, but one takes half as long to learn it, the one that takes half the time is better at it. I hope you are a mathematician and not a teacher (if that is possible) because you do not grasp some simple concepts of learning. I am assuming the fallacy you are making is that the one that took longer to learn it may have a more thorough understanding. The problem with that thought is that it implies different amount of learning so the two students did not, in fact, learn the same thing. If they didn't learn the same thing then comparing the time it took to learn them is way more complicated.

    86. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But nerds are cool... right? /is a nerd

    87. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Realistically, situations like this I do not believe are massively uncommon. Some females argue that using their sex to get further in the workplace is fair game, but I do not see how this can be true when it puts males at a real inherent disadvantage - even if there were more female managers in the workplace for males to flirt with in reverse the reality is that males are far more receptive to flirting than females most the time.

      But wouldn't you agree that there are also 'male bonding' activities that women are not usually a part of? Is it an unfair advantage when men can talk about 'manly' things to one another? It can be tricky for women to become 'one of the guys' (if they even want to).

      > Females then have to accept that if they truly want to see equality that they must refrain from this kind of view of things, they cannot on one had suggest they are treated unfairly in a bad way, then on the other take advantage of their sex to get treated unfairly but in their favour.

      Whiiiiine more. It's not like she slept her way to the top or something like that! People are different. Some people are funny/pretty/intelligent/charismatic, those are all 'unfair' advantages too. Besides, I doubt most women would have to actively 'use' their sex to get treated differently. I guess in a truly 'fair' system we'd have no knowledge of our coworkers age, sex and race, and exchange no personal information at all. Hardly a place most people would want to work tho.

      Still, it's a shame that situations as the one you described happen.

    88. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices;

      That describes you perfectly. This study suggests that the difference in achievement may be entirely due to societal factors. It's a supposition meant to open people's minds to the possibility. However, the selective consideration of data and her personal opinion on their meaning does not counter balance the evidence on human intelligence we have to date.

      We already knew that we don't know how much societal factors affect the difference in the types of intelligence we have observed. However, it is purely wishful thinking to proclaim that there is no biological difference. The article doesn't even discuss any differences except "achievement" - and that term was not defined.

      On the weight of that, you 'll call anyone who doesn't agree with you a bigot and a twit? You're a fool.
       

    89. Re:Another one bites the dust by bitt3n · · Score: 1

      if it's always sexism, how do you explain results like this, in which success on the trading floor correlates with exposure to testosterone, such that those with the highest developmental exposure earn five times more than those with the lowest?

    90. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In every field which was once exclusively male, but is now no longer, it's been claimed first, that no woman can perform alongside men; second, when the first claim is disproven, that hardly any woman can; and third, when the second claim is disproven, that maybe a few women can, but a majority lack the ability or the inclination. And every single time, as the residual sexism fades, the third claim is shown to be false as well. Business, politics, medicine: it's a familiar pattern. Now math is next on the list.

      In short, if there's a difference, it's not the sex, it's the sexism. Anyone who can't acknowledge this is a bigot and a twit.

      Men and women are different, yadda yadda. Yes, they are, and they may be even be different in ways that affect performance at certain jobs. But every time the issue is put to the test, we see that those differences are not nearly as signficant as the bigots desperately believe. The difference in means between the sexes, or any other groups into which people can conveniently be divided, is far smaller than the variances between individuals.

      [citation needed]

    91. Re:Another one bites the dust by lgw · · Score: 1

      That Malthusian nonsense was popular in Victorian times, when people were fretting about "the darkies outbreeding them". It's established bullshit today. We could support a great many more people on Earth with today's technology, and of course technology doesn't stand still. All shortages related to basic needs today are political, not fundamental. We need less land for farming every year, mass produced housing (and clothing, and furniture) has revolutionized how we live, and nuclear power means unlimited clean water is simply a matter of being willing to build the infrastructure.

      It doesn't matter in any case. World population is expected to crest at 10B or so (as industrialization spreads) then begin declining. Declining population ends in extinction, but I suspect a new culture shift will come long before that's a problem.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    92. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think your being in the field of mathematics does not make you an expert in the field of genetics or learning ability (whatever that field is). So your opinion is not so relevant as you think it is. Or maybe you are just obsessed with math and not inherently good at it.

    93. Re:Another one bites the dust by lgw · · Score: 1

      If you think overpopulation is the key problem, "you first".

      Western culture needs to embrace the idea that 2-3 kids, not 1-2 kids, is desirable. That means someone is going to be staying home with the kids for many years. Rearing children with good values and judgement is perhaps the most important accomplishment one can brag of.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    94. Re:Another one bites the dust by Vexorian · · Score: 1

      Then the males you're referencing are dumb for not taking advantage of the tutors available."

      He claims women had free tutoring while men didn't have free tutoring.

      Say what you want, but giving free tutoring to any gender and not to the other sounds quite sexist.

      --

      Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
    95. Re:Another one bites the dust by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      And there we disagree.

      If you are right, or if it happens after I die, it's okay either way for me.

      The system gets more brittle each year.

      All it takes is one real war or pandemic and the number of deaths will probably be in billions.

      And i'm not saying we can do anything to stop it anyway. I think it's too late to do anything about it.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    96. Re:Another one bites the dust by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Why, so we can have even more population problems than we already have? Or are you one of those morons who thinks the earth has infinite capacity to hold humans, and doesn't understand that there are limited resources (food, oil/energy, freshwater) for supporting us? Or maybe you'd prefer if everyone lived in dire poverty on the brink of starvation?

    97. Re:Another one bites the dust by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      "Then the males you're referencing are dumb for not taking advantage of the tutors available."

      Please explain to me how you expect the males to take advantage of the tutoring program, which is available only to females. Costumes, perhaps?

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    98. Re:Another one bites the dust by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      "I don't believe you about the tutoring"

      Well then get lost! There was a university-sponsored math tutoring program free to women only. There was no such program for men. That's a fact, and I'm sorry that you fear reality.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    99. Re:Another one bites the dust by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For example, my school had all sorts of scholarships available only to women (not men).

      Let me clarify this with a data point/anecdote. Here at UMass Amherst, there are a great many scholarships available for Computer Science students. The small minority that don't require that the applicant have membership in a racial minority or have female sex all explicitly state that they still prefer it. It's actively frustrating hunting for scholarships as a "white" male, since everyone figures that you must be rich, fat, and happy enough to pay for everything in life all on your lonesome, or at least that you deserve their money much less than someone who happens to speak Spanish natively or lacks a Y-chromosome.

    100. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I admit it's there, just that it's not there all the time. I was really griping about political activism getting in the way of truth for emotional reasons.

    101. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why there's very few women in engineering.

      Have you been to college recently? In the current crop of 18-25 year-olds ("millenials" ?), women are quite well represented in engineering departments.

      Having even the slightest grasp of statistics I'll say first that my one time anecdote can in no way be generalized to large swathes of the population at large but, in my four years of undergrad (just finished last May of 2008) and my one year of graduate school so far, women are still significantly underrepresented in engineering. Now, they may have much higher percentages than they did in the past, and from my experience they always set the curves (damn them) but still, not nearly as numerous as the men. Coincidentally, at my current job, three of the four head consultants are women and the entire office is pretty equally distributed between men and women.

    102. Re:Another one bites the dust by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Not a very good example. Post-doc work depends largely on what you did for your PhD. If the couple had equal abilities but did two different PhD thesis topics and the woman's turned out more successful by coincidence, the scenario you describe could easily happen by random chance.

    103. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and my dick had nothing to with it.

      but what if it did!?

    104. Re:Another one bites the dust by CorporateSuit · · Score: 1

      In an attempt to switch things up a bit, I did bother to read the article before posting... and after posting. The study was flawed and approached with great bias and blinders on to any mitigating factors. The article ignores a great many factors, and assumes some very questionable things. For example:

      1) Article suggests Asian cultures do not have prominent, patriarchal gender roles.
      2) Article ignores the different ways different countries take aptitude tests. For example, when I was growing up, I found out that teachers would be pressed by their union to test the challenged kids for "random samplings" for the national academic surveys in junior high and middle schools. This would show that our students were scoring low, and therefore needed more funding for the schools. When it came to SATs and ACTs, public schools allow all kids to be tested in the US. This is not the case in other countries, where only the cream of the crop are tested (while vocational students are sent to different schools or institutions for learning and are not included in worldwide aptitude tests). This may not affect the outcome, but ignoring it completely, as this study does, solicits error.
      3) Article ignores the scientific studies that prove that testosterone takes social considerations into account when performing, and ignores testosterone levels differ across cultures (Asians have the lowest, while Africans and Caucasians typically have the highest in the studied age ranges) And that non-verbal intelligence was shown to be greatly enhanced by increased testosterone. It suspects that, where disparities show between genders, women are performing worse where, according to other (read: SCIENTIFIC) studies, it would be more likely that the men are simply performing better.

      --
      I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
    105. Re:Another one bites the dust by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Note that the exact reverse is also true. En masse most guys don't go into math because it's extravagantly unlikely to net them a desirable female. It's just that men differ from our average in most traits more often than women differ from their average.

    106. Re:Another one bites the dust by Coryoth · · Score: 1

      variation (standard deviation) is higher in males than in females across a number of different measurement categories, including (presumably) factors that lead to any posited mathematical ability.

      Note that the study pointed to in TFA deals with this issue as well, and while they can't conclusively say it is not the case, they do have decent evidence to imply that the variance in mathematical ability at the extremes is potentially roughly the safe between men and women, but is strongly affected by sociocultural factors.

    107. Re:Another one bites the dust by hackstraw · · Score: 1

      If a woman and a man can perform equally at math, but the woman has to study n% longer, then the man is inherently better at math.

      As a mathematician, I can assure you that the time a student must spend to learn the material is no indicator of their ability with it.

      Isn't there also a saying that goes something like "If you haven't found something new in math by 30 years of age, then you never will"? Point being, ability is ability.

    108. Re:Another one bites the dust by askeluv · · Score: 1

      There are many women who are stronger and faster than a number of men.

      The "men" you are refering to are, presumably, us slashdotters?

    109. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As an employer, I can assure you that the time it takes to complete a task to specifications is a GREAT indicator of their ability.

    110. Re:Another one bites the dust by justinlee37 · · Score: 1

      It seems to be outside the realm of allowed possibility that perhaps men, on average, enjoy being computer programmers more than women? Or that women enjoy being preschool teachers more than men? We'd be absolutely wrong to hinder in any way people who wish to pursue any career path, whether it's traditional for their gender or not.

      The problem is that many people "choose" the traditional career path because their mothers and/or fathers shaped them to be that way. I agree that these sort of statistics can't show us what sort of discrimination is happening, or where it is happening, but they certainly do show discrimination at some level, in some area of society, which may or may not be intentional.

    111. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a woman and a man can perform equally at math, but the woman has to study n% longer, then the man is inherently better at math.

      As a mathematician, I can assure you that the time a student must spend to learn the material is no indicator of their ability with it.

      What if they die before they have enough time to master the material?

    112. Re:Another one bites the dust by stdarg · · Score: 1

      All the boys are working too hard to get a tutor, and all the girls have a free ride? Are you really using the male-as-breadwinner stereotype to claim the existence of anti-male sexism?

      To be fair, the "male as breadwinner" stereotype is sexist. Positive stereotypes are still harmful, especially to people who don't live up to them.

      Yeah there are scholarships that are only available to women. Once the sexism that you don't see because it supports your preconceived notions is gone then scholarships that favor women can go away too. There are plenty available to men too, so who exactly is giving you the finger?

      Do you honestly believe a program that was successful at encouraging girls to do XYZ will just be scrapped? Never going to happen. To take another issue besides education -- women already live significantly longer than men, but we still spend a lot more money on breast cancer than on prostate cancer.

      Separate issue: most of the scholarships that favor men are sports scholarships. Why don't you try looking around for general scholarships just for boys. They're out there, but they're primarily for disadvantaged groups who *truly* are underrepresented in college. Then search for general scholarships for girls. Much easier. You're being deliberately blind if you don't see that it's unbalanced, despite more girls going to college already.

      Oh right, I forgot, this was blanket stereotyping and hyperbole day. But of course you don't do that, no no you don't support sexism. It's just those stupid girls who don't even have to work for their degrees who are at fault.

      Being against the disparity between programs that favor girls vs. boys is not sexist, no matter how you spin it. You're the one being sexist.

    113. Re:Another one bites the dust by Exception+Duck · · Score: 1

      If you want to teach women to swim, you have to throw them in the lake.

      Then copy Baron Berners who " upon hearing that you could teach a dog to swim by throwing him into water, the young Gerald promptly decided that by throwing his mother's dog out the window, he could teach it to fly."

      And soon we'll be out of parking spaces everywhere.

    114. Re:Another one bites the dust by lgw · · Score: 0

      Why, so we can have even more population problems than we already have? Or are you one of those morons who thinks the earth has infinite capacity to hold humans, and doesn't understand that there are limited resources (food, oil/energy, freshwater) for supporting us? Or maybe you'd prefer if everyone lived in dire poverty on the brink of starvation?

      All resources are limited, the question is: what's the limit? Is there a limit at all revenent to current population level (billions, not trillions)?

      Food is not meaningfully limited, relative to current population levels (all modern starvation is political in nature, more humans are overweight than underweight, total farmland needed has been shrinking for years).

      Energy is not meaningfully limited, relative to current population levels, we just prefer cheap oil to more scalable solutions such as nuclear and solar. We're no where *near* using the amount of energy we could get free from the sun without even putting collecters into orbit.

      Fresh water is not meaningfully limited *globally*, as we have lots of power available, though there are certainly local areas where significant infrastructure would need to be developed to support additional population. Still, there are enough areas globally where there's no meaningful limit that it's not a bound on global population growth.

      All of which is somewhat irrelevent: 2-3 children per woman is replacement rate. 1-2 children per woman is extinction rate. Again, if you'd like to see the human race extinct: you first!

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    115. Re:Another one bites the dust by lgw · · Score: 1

      Well, duh, a major event that kills a percentage of the population will kill more people the more people there are. Did you mean something more interesting?

      It's been a while since we've had the sort of event that makes us take infrastructure seriously. Katrina didn't matter at all to Americans in this regard. CHina had the worst engineering disaster ever, when a series of burst dams killed probably hundreds of thousands - I'm not sure whether they improved communist construction or not, but their first relfex was to ban all news on the event, and it went unremarked in the global press at the time.

      But human do learn, and if something bad does happen we'll get serious about infrastructure again for a little while.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    116. Re:Another one bites the dust by Grishnakh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Food is not meaningfully limited, relative to current population levels (all modern starvation is political in nature, more humans are overweight than underweight, total farmland needed has been shrinking for years).

      Have you been living under a rock? People are starving all over the place, especially as crops are being used more as fuel now instead of food, causing prices to rise beyond the poor's ability to afford it.

      Most humans are NOT overweight, just humans in 1st-world countries where there's plenty of crappy, artificial, processed food.

      Energy is not meaningfully limited, relative to current population levels, we just prefer cheap oil to more scalable solutions such as nuclear and solar. We're no where *near* using the amount of energy we could get free from the sun without even putting collecters into orbit.

      Nuclear and solar aren't used more because they're expensive, and solar's efficiency isn't good enough yet. Expensive==resources. Putting collectors into orbit? Now you're talking about speculative future technologies. The fact is, right now, energy is highly limited, unless you happen to be rich. In the future, when your orbital collectors are in place, then we can revisit this topic.

      Fresh water is not meaningfully limited *globally*, as we have lots of power available, though there are certainly local areas where significant infrastructure would need to be developed to support additional population. Still, there are enough areas globally where there's no meaningful limit that it's not a bound on global population growth.

      WTF??? Fresh water most certainly is limited in most places on the planet. We do NOT have lots of power available.

      This is ridiculous. You are obviously living in your own fantasy land, and it's pointless to even discuss this with you. A simple google search can easily disprove your assertions.

      Do you also believe the earth was created 6500 years ago?

    117. Re:Another one bites the dust by logicnazi · · Score: 2, Insightful
      And as another mathematician I will call total BS on that.

      Yes, I definatly agree there are excellent students who need a fair bit of time to digest material and there are quick but not deep students as well but are you really going to claim that there is NO relation between the time it takes to pick up a piece of math and mathematical ability.

      Hell, in modern mathematical practice a great deal of what we do is spend time trying to digest the work of other mathematicians so we can profit from their techniques. Ultimately if you can pick them up faster you have an advantage. It's an advantage that can be outweighed by other factors but it's still an advantage.

      The parent's point is logically valid. Other factors being equal picking up a subject faster is an advantage. Or course other factors may not be equal. While this is based primarily on ancedotal experience IMO part of the difference has to do with the way that men and women relate to the course and to other students (for reasons that are certainly at least partly social). Women are much more willing to ask for help from the instructor and possibly less willing to contest other students solutions. Given the way we teach math pre-college and in introductory classes following the instructor's advice too closely is a disadvantage for becoming a real mathematician.

      --

      If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

    118. Re:Another one bites the dust by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      No- I'm talking beyond that.

      I think we are going to over-breed to the point that we are like a spinning top.

      Large parts of the ocean are dying even at our current population levels. They would spring back in under a decade if we could leave them alone but we can't/won't.

      I don't think we can wipe out humans- but i think we can take it to the point were we fall back quite a ways and lose progress for a hundred years or so and end up with 3-4 billion.

      Without foreign aid, a lot of countries are really uninhabitable in africa and have 100x the number of people that should be there subsisting- barely existing but not really living. If the foreign aid, or the water, or the energy, or etc. is interrupted for 60 days it is going to be a catastrophe.

      Any bright idea we have to take the cap off and take our population higher makes whatever the eventual event is that much worse.

      In any kind of real war, we'd probably lose electricity very quickly. we might lose water as well. cholera and other diseases we haven't had to deal with in a long time are just waiting for an opening- we are very tightly packed these days.

      Any kind of real pandemic is going to hit a lot harder than the 1917 pandemic. -- however, I'll grant that in 20-30 years we might just solve that problem with the ability to extremely quickly model diseases and create counters to them.

      I don't disagree that we won't keep inventing better foods, better medicines.

      It is just increasingly unstable. Any screwups will make us look like stupid deer outbreeding our food supply.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    119. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I'm Indian and we have a lot of the same thing. Hell there are lots of places where all girls get free education, forgot about special scholorship programmes.
      However the harsh reality is that if you charge those parents one unit of money for the education of a *girl* they'll put her right back to washing and cleaning up. They already need heavy subsidies to get the boys to school and lots of convincing to even send the girls, any expenses means a lot of girls going without education. Mostly rural areas but jackasses are everywhere, even in cities, to a lesser extent.
      Sure it may be diffferent in America, no parent is going to keep their kids from school but once they get there your corporate culture has fucked with kids brains quite a lot already feeding them stereotypes up the wazoo. Ultimately it's the kids responsibility to choose the path that's right for them and boycott the industries that tried to get them to be only homemakers but it does affect.
      Those scholarships would get more *talented* women into fields where they would otherwise might not have gone. It may be unfair to men, it certainly will be some decades down the line when the gap has closed entirely, but for now it really isn't since they are just making up for the cultural handicap that you've given your girls.
      There is also a very important distinction between your post and the one below, the first is a somewhat slanted approach at trying to achieve equal results though inequal opportunity, the one below is trying to force equality without merit.

    120. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just curious, did we go out of our way to try to level the playing field for Irish and Italians back in the day?

    121. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure sexism plays a part in some instances but like everything else it's not black and white. A lot of girls don't do math because that's not where the cool boys are. Their social standing would take a hit if they were caught carrying a calculator and hanging around the nerds and yes believe it or not, a girl's self image means a lot.

      Their self image can't mean a lot if they let other people define it.

    122. Re:Another one bites the dust by reason · · Score: 1

      And once it's well established that women can do the job, it starts to be seen as a lower-skilled job, and relative pay rates fall. Past examples include secretarial clerks, teachers, and others.

    123. Re:Another one bites the dust by blues_shuffle · · Score: 1

      Would you be willing to tutor a male student at the same rates?

    124. Re:Another one bites the dust by thesandtiger · · Score: 1

      He's either lying, or he's leaving out that the source of the free tutoring is likely a student organization, not from the university itself (meaning that if male students wanted free tutoring they could have formed an organization to offer it themselves).

      --
      Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
    125. Re:Another one bites the dust by bigbird · · Score: 1

      Surprisingly, in ultra-marathons it seems that women are able to beat men - and are doing so regularly. Take a look at this for example.

    126. Re:Another one bites the dust by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

      > But every time the issue is put to the test, we see that those differences
      > are not nearly as signficant as the bigots desperately believe.

      That is one opinion. Another, with a fair amount of evidence to back it, is that every time the issue is put to the test if women don't do equally well the definition of the task is changed until the desired result, equality, appears.

      Exaxmple: Carly Fiorina destroyed Lucent and Hewlet Packard yet she is still considered a trailblazing leader who's opinion is sought out because to do otherwise might imply that she was a fool given a position she was unfit for to demonstrate political correctness. A male CEO who failed as utterly as she did would not likely be remembered.... although there are exceptions; the corporate world isn't quite sane now is it.

      Bottom line, people should be free to try to be anything they want within a few sensible limits[1] and anybody who tries to stand in someone's way due to race, sex, etc. should attract the social sanction of all right thinking folk. And anyone discriminating while holding any power of the state should be removed from power.

      Demanding equality of results is madness. We have tens of thousands of years of cultural differences and quite probably a few biological ones as well. And anyway, I though we were supposed to celebrate diversity and how can you HAVE diversity if there aren't differences to celebrate and draw strength from? The progresive newspeak diversity is so sterile and boring, where you have a rainbow of races, gender identies and cultures yet everyone thinks exactly alike and all results among identity groups are equal in every measurable way.

      [1] Do I really have to spell out those obvious exceptions? It would just go offtopic at warp speed.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    127. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bigotry never fails to surface when any gender-related topic appears on Slashdot.

    128. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a woman and a man can perform equally at math, but the woman has to study n% longer, then the man is inherently better at math.

      As a mathematician, I can assure you that the time a student must spend to learn the material is no indicator of their ability with it.

      It may not be a guarantee, but it's definitely an indicator. This is especially true of a field like mathematics, which builds very heavily upon itself. If it consistently takes someone longer than average to learn the next theorem, that's a pretty strong sign that they have little natural ability in mathematics. You might be able to find some outliers who learn math slowly only due to handicaps (like dyslexia), or who learn quickly but can't apply it (like an autistic savant), but that's hardly the stuff of generalizations. Generally, people who learn the material of some field faster than average are more able with that material than average, and are inherently superior in that field.

    129. Re:Another one bites the dust by thrawn_aj · · Score: 1

      In every field which was once exclusively male, but is now no longer, it's been claimed first, that no woman can perform alongside men; second, when the first claim is disproven, that hardly any woman can; and third, when the second claim is disproven, that maybe a few women can, but a majority lack the ability or the inclination. And every single time, as the residual sexism fades, the third claim is shown to be false as well. Business, politics, medicine: it's a familiar pattern. Now math is next on the list.

      In short, if there's a difference, it's not the sex, it's the sexism. Anyone who can't acknowledge this is a bigot and a twit.

      And yet again we see the emergence of the false dichotomy. Why can people never see the third choice? Have you ever considered that maybe some fields of study or professions are simply not desirable to certain classes of people? Is it a cause of concern that men might be so poorly represented in women's studies? Agreed, this might be an extreme example. But in all discussions involving gender (or racial or other) inequality in representation in a certain field, why must people ALWAYS start with the assumption that all fields will always settle into a static equilibrium where all possible classes that humanity can be divided into will be proportionally represented?

      Here's an anecdotal example. In the university where I got my undergraduate degree, I was closely involved with both my major department (physics) as well as an allied one (math). The latter was pretty close to gender neutral in terms of representation while the former was staggeringly male dominated. It is now well-known that gender bias DOES exist in hiring practices in physics (way more so than in math) departments. But shouldn't the question be phrased thus:

      "What is the ratio of hires (or admissions if grad students) to applicants once you screen out the obviously unqualified [to a strictly objective standard like publications or GPA - screening that a bureaucrat or a computer algorithm can do]?"

      Only then can you cancel out the (I suspect LARGE) effect of class X having a simple (non-conspiratorial) lack of interest in field Y. Instead, the question asked is always, "Why the hell don't you have gender equality in your department?" or "Why do you have so few black or hispanic or asian professors in your department?" I'm not claiming that this IS the reason for the discrepancy, just that it is automatically rejected, nay, not even considered as a possible reason, when in fact any reasonable person would put that at the top of his (or her?) list of possible causes.

      For the record, I am NOT white (far from it :P). Forced diversity (of any kind) is cheap posturing at best, politically correct a** kissing at worst. One would think that INTELLECTUAL diversity would be more important at a university than the superficial diversity of skin color or funny accents. Personally, I have seen more intellectual diversity (in terms of ways people think, not WHAT They think) WITHIN a group of white males than among a superficially diverse group (at least in academia - no idea how it works in the "real world", whatever that's supposed to mean *roll*).

    130. Re:Another one bites the dust by smoker2 · · Score: 1

      Or when there are enough female hormones pumped into the environment. This is biological warfare.

    131. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my experience (I worked as regular employee in 4 companies and consulted in many many more), all women who got to the top (think: CIO position, or VP of IT), got there deservedly so. All of them were 'hard-driving', assertive and with keen understanding of both IT and management.

      I also knew quite a few women (my colleagues) who didn't quite "make it" and I could also see why.

      I honestly cannot recall a single situation in which one of them got promoted thanks to some kind of bias. In fact, I would say that to me, it looked as cards were stacked "against them" and their work was usually under more scrutiny.

      And yes, the added disadvantage was that the type behavior that passed as "alpha" and "assertive" with some of my (male) managers, was perceived as "bitchy" with my female colleagues.

      So, don't whine about an unfair treatment.

    132. Re:Another one bites the dust by moosesocks · · Score: 2, Interesting

      For a variety of reasons, my school tries to shoot for a 55/45 female-to-male split.

      However, the applicant pool is split 65/35 (F/M)

      In other words, admission for females is considerably more competitive than it is for males.

      In my experiences as a student (I recently graduated), I witnessed virtually no anti-female sexism, but plenty of anti-male remarks, many of which were praised and even applauded. (I find it very difficult to take Women's Studies seriously as a field of study, particularly at the undergraduate level. Studying gender would be much more appropriate, and less prone to bias)

      Don't get me started on the processes that take place if a male is accused of sexual assault. The male student is given virtually no opportunity to defend himself, even in light of a complete lack of physical evidence (the Duke lacrosse incident is a good example of this). We also received some of the most offensive "sexual assault prevention training" that I could possibly imagine.

      At one point, we were asked to respond to a multiple-choice survey asking us if we'd sexually assaulted a woman A) 0-5 times, B)6-10 times, C)10-15 times, or D)15+ times. (Also, according to the survey and training program, rape apparently only occurs within the heteronormative ideal)

      But, yes. In Mathematics and Physics (my field), you do have fewer females than males. Although there isolated incidents of legitimate sexism, I believe that the reasons are largely historical, and will disappear with time. As more females trickle into the field, the field becomes increasingly attractive to other females.

      I believe much of the gender disparity in these fields stems from the fact that up until the past decade, Physics and Mathematics were dominated by the huge influx of professors who graduated immediately following WWII. Given that there were comparatively few hires in these departments until that generation began to retire, it's no surprise that that generation's cultural standards lingered around for much longer in those departments.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    133. Re:Another one bites the dust by Nevyn · · Score: 1

      You haven't been looking very carefully.

      From your first link:

      Female doctors in training now outnumber men in dermatology, family medicine, psychiatry, pediatrics, and OB/GYN

      Women tend to cluster in specialties that are more accommodating of women and part-time work, notably pediatrics and obstetrics

      Currently, fewer than 10 percent of thoracic and orthopedic surgery residents are women.

      And then younger physicians of both genders -- but particularly women -- shy away from demanding specialties like surgery.

      So it doesn't surprise me that I've mostly met male Doctors, as most of the ones I've seen over the last 5 years have been surgeons. It's nice to see stats. that the profession as a whole doesn't just represent my experience though. Although it looks like parts of it are heavily split, it looks like it's doing better than most everything else.

      --
      ustr: Managed string API with ave. 44% overhead over strdup(), for 0-20B
    134. Re:Another one bites the dust by mgblst · · Score: 1

      What a stupid nitpick, that adds nothing to the conversation, and tries to hide the fact that the initial point still stands.

      I guess it is inaccurate to say that women give birth more than men as well?

    135. Re:Another one bites the dust by mgblst · · Score: 1

      So you are saying that women don't study and work? That seems to be your main gripe, but has not been my experience. All the women I know at Uni, have also worked as well.

      Sounds like you are a little bitter.

      There is sexism there, but there is also a large case of women complaining about sexism then they don't get their way, whether it is a promotion or pay rise.

    136. Re:Another one bites the dust by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Wow what a lot of ill-formed rubbish. I agree with your sentiments, disagree with the points you use to support them, and would also like to throw in the fact that you have dramatically oversimplified the issue, and also ignored the female pespective.

      Getting teased about doing maths by the boys and girls at your school has a real effect, not just on the people being teased, but on anyone considering making the jump.

    137. Re:Another one bites the dust by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      Overwhelming? Are you kidding me?

      What about color blindness? Stuttering? And loss of language functions due to certain types of brain damage? What about ADD? The ratio for colorblindness is 1 out of 10 males, but something like 1 out of 100 for females (sorry for the round numbers, but if anyone wants me to look them up -- I certainly can). Stuttering, the difference is also very high, favoring females who are not only less likely to stutter, but they're also much more likely to stop stuttering once they reach adulthood. And same goes for brain injuries and loss of language functions, women lose less, and they almost always recover more quickly than men.

      Now if the political correctness movement can bury these indisputable quantifiable numbers, think of what it can do to the numbers that are actually subject to interpretation and more difficult to quantify. That's right, the PC angry mob has actually stopped us from honestly exploring those possibilities. And it's preventing us from improving education for either gender, because right now, the school system is geared to teach girls and it's designed to drive out any innate masculine traits the boys have (instead of drawing on those innate qualities to make them better students).

    138. Re:Another one bites the dust by univalue · · Score: 1

      Yes women need to compete on equal grounds. The question is are women competing on equal grounds? Society for the most part has been saying that women can not do as well as men in math. So I would say we are not on equal footing.

    139. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Being a mathematician makes you an expert on everything.

      Seriously. Mathematicians are fucking invincible. Once you learn to approach a formal system generically, no field of human thought is outside your reach.

    140. Re:Another one bites the dust by NonSequor · · Score: 1

      You're confusing a marathon with a 100m dash.

      Another measure of intelligence is how far you go before you burn out.

      Mentally, I'm more of the sprinter type. I have an extremely varied range of knowledge, and I'm very proud of that, but I still envy the things that people with more endurance than me can achieve. There are definitely trade-offs between the two.

      --
      My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
    141. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is so True.

      In mi country, Chile, it is stated for government scholarships basis that a woman is selected if competing with a man who has the same total evaluation score.

      Besides, there are also a couple of scholarships only for women. Of course, it would be considered a horrible display of sexism if someone created a men-only scholarship.

    142. Re:Another one bites the dust by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1

      This is the problem of a "local minima" - good for the parents, bad for the world.

      Overpopulation isn't a very sexy problem right now. It conjures up scary pictures of draconian birth-control policies, of forced sterilizations, etc. But the world population has doubled twice in less than two generations. This is a big problem: you think global warming is bad now? Sprawl? The loss of biodiversity? It is only getting worse.

      A one-child-per-couple policy, coupled with reasonable policies to help with an aging population (like doing things to aggressively encourage savings, instead of aggressively encouraging consumption to fuel economic growth) is the only responsible approach to take. And it can happen in the 3rd world, as well, when women are given greater political power, education, and opportunities: see the case of the (still very poor) Indian state of Kerala for an example of that at work.

      I speak as a parent, as well. I very much want to rear a child with good values and judgement, but that is not the most important accomplishment either I or my spouse will be able to brag of, either. That kind of sentiment is pure treacle. Raising a responsible, ethical child is baseline, don't-shit-where-you-eat stuff.

    143. Re:Another one bites the dust by migla · · Score: 1

      A lot of girls don't do math because that's not where the cool boys are. Their social standing would take a hit if they were caught carrying a calculator and hanging around the nerds and yes believe it or not, a girl's self image means a lot.

      It seems to me you are arguing the point that it is indeed sexism, deeply rooted in our culture, that is to blame.

      --
      Some of my favourite people are from th US; Vonnegut, Chomsky, Bill Hicks.
    144. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you accept the premise that some people produce less value than the resources they consume, then you also have to at least consider the premise that some people produce more value than the resources that they consume.

      If the second premise is true and such traits are to any extent genetically heritable or capable of being cultivated by child-rearing practices, then it seems that it would be a valid conclusion that limiting the propagation of these traits through the general population would be maladaptive.

    145. Re:Another one bites the dust by Xest · · Score: 1

      Some are childless of course, but others not, suggesting that's skimping their parental duties is a bit silly though.

      Families make a choice about who works, my sister works long hours and it's her partner that stays home and looks after the kid. Does that mean she's skimping on her parental duties, or is it only skimping if it's the male that does it?

      The fact is someone in the family has to earn a good wage to provide a good life for a kid. Most families are happy that it's the male that does it and that's their choice. Females who have their husbands working those hours so they don't have to though so they can look after the kids cannot expect to go as far as males in other families who also work those hours that they're competing against for jobs. They either need to switch places with their husbands so that they can work the hours and have a career whilst the husband doesn't or accept that. The only alternative is if they can find someone to look after the kids for them and again, that's their choice.

    146. Re:Another one bites the dust by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      In every field which was once exclusively male, but is now no longer, it's been claimed first, that no woman can perform alongside men; second, when the first claim is disproven, that hardly any woman can; and third, when the second claim is disproven, that maybe a few women can,

      Bullshit! The field of sperm donation is still exclusively male.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    147. Re:Another one bites the dust by icebrain · · Score: 1

      It seems to be outside the realm of allowed possibility that perhaps men, on average, enjoy being computer programmers more than women? Or that women enjoy being preschool teachers more than men? We'd be absolutely wrong to hinder in any way people who wish to pursue any career path, whether it's traditional for their gender or not.

      The problem is that many people "choose" the traditional career path because their mothers and/or fathers shaped them to be that way. I agree that these sort of statistics can't show us what sort of discrimination is happening, or where it is happening, but they certainly do show discrimination at some level, in some area of society, which may or may not be intentional.

      You missed the point. The problem is that you claimed all differences, any disparity at all in the gender distribution of a particular career, had to be the result of bigotry and discrimination. I agree that social pressures and discrimination may be responsible in part for such disparities (to varying degrees in different fields), but you can't claim it is the only cause. It's quite possible that, averaged over the entire population and normalized for background and all, there is some innate biological difference that would result in differences in aptitude or preference for various tasks. In either case, though, we simply don't have the data to run a proper study.

      Yes, we should try and eliminate discrimination; no, we should not throw up barriers to people based on race or sex or whatever. But the goal should be equal and fair opportunity, not outcome.

      --
      The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
    148. Re:Another one bites the dust by Gospodin · · Score: 1

      True, but happens not to be the case here: they were actually working on the same topic and had written papers together.

      --
      ...following the principles of Heisenburger's Uncertain Cat...
    149. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, he's arguing that it's "geekism" rather than sexism.

    150. Re:Another one bites the dust by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      Discriminating based on sex is sexism. There's no spin in that statement. But you're a freaking gyroscope for trying to argue the opposite.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    151. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      apparently you never finished reading his comment

    152. Re:Another one bites the dust by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

      Food and water are plentiful. The problem is that some places have too many people than the environment and cultural infrastructure can sustain. If you live in a desert, you need to either keep your population low or you need to be advanced enough to bring water to you and civilized enough to get along. That's the problem with the 3rd world, not exploitation from the 1st... not a lack of generosity from the 1st, but there's too many people living in the 3rd world in proportion to its social and technological advancement. Even if we hand them the technology, they lack the cultural infrastructure to use and maintain it properly. The best thing they could do for themselves is to stop breeding like rabbits. That would reduce pressure on the people who remain and allow them to grow gracefully.

      Yes, i'm very culturally inthenthative. Call me a culturalist if that makes you feel better. Go ahead and mod me -5 Unpleasant Truth. i don't want these people to suffer, but it's not SOLELY our responsibility to fix and no amount of effort from us will solve it. Even if we doubled the aid we gave to these places, it would be enough. We aren't their problem, they are. The sooner we (and they) realize this, the sooner things will get better for them. The best things we can give to these troubled lands is books and condoms and any other form of birth control we can throw at them. For now we're throwing money down the drain.

      No, i won't read your whiny ass reply because you need to think this way to feel good about yourself. But i'll tell the girl at the campus bookstore you read your revised history and are oh so sensitive to the plight of brown people inflicted by rich white males.

      --
      Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
    153. Re:Another one bites the dust by lgw · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree that we won't keep inventing better foods, better medicines.

      It is just increasingly unstable. Any screwups will make us look like stupid deer outbreeding our food supply.

      I agree with this part completely. But the point you seem to be missing is: it's always been this way. And yet, the "vanished civilizations" one can find historically are very rare. Sure, cholera might resurface, but it will never be the problem it was historically (mesured as a percentage of the population killed), because we understand hygine and the "germ theory" is well accepted and understood.

      Similarly, we've been real slackers on infrastructure in America, because we haven't needed redundancy for quite some time, so there will be some suffering if there's a major electrical outage. But that's just lazyness, not really a difficult problem to solve. I was in Florida when 4 hurricanes hit in one year. People figure out the whole "how do I prepare for unreliable power" thing really quickly, once it actually matters.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    154. Re:Another one bites the dust by lgw · · Score: 1

      Did you graduate from a public schol in recent years? You sound like you've been educated to an agenda, not to facts.

      The WHO has been warning that Obesity was a bigger problem than starvation for years now. We burn crops as fuel in America just as an ag subsidy: it's *so* easy to grow *so* much corn, the price as a commoddity sometimes goes to 0.

      Countries where starvion is a problem is a result of deliberate political control of the food supply, not lack of food worldwide.

      Farmland in America has been decreasing for decades now, while total food supply increased. This effect has been profound enough that total forest area in America has grown for decades, as the forests reclaim the farmland.

      Energy is limited only by out willingness to build infrastructure (cost). Industrial solar (using solar-thermal, not photo-electric generation) is plenty efficient, and there are example plants around that are part of the base load in places like California. California has power shortages entirely for political reasons: *no one* will allow a power station in their back yard. It's so bad that PG&E has *seriously* proposed putting a solar collector in orbit, as that's the only place not in anyone's back yard!

      Ocean + power = fresh water. Most humans live on the coast. Did you know that most water is used for power generation today? And most of what remains for agriculture? And most of what remains for landcsaping? Drinking water is a *tiny* percentage of water use.

      Facts.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    155. Re:Another one bites the dust by lgw · · Score: 1

      Would population is expected to crest soon, at around 10B, and then start declining. What overpopulation problem? I challange you to find a "Starving nation" with a population density higher than Silicon Valley. Politics will always cause people to die, sometimes of starvation, but there's no shortage of food (or any other basic material) worldwide.

      Do you really think you will contribute more to society through your job, or volunteer efforts, than what you contribute through raising a child who is productive instead of a leech? The math is simple: what will you contribute, vs what will all your children and grandchildren contribute?

      Culture (the values we teach our children) is the only difference between modern industrialized society and the most horrific living conditions in history.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    156. Re:Another one bites the dust by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

      Would you be willing to tutor a male student at the same rates?

      No, male students already have so many advantages over their female counterparts - I extend this offer to the female body as a way for them to put themselves on a level playing field.

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
    157. Re:Another one bites the dust by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      I know what you mean about a "level playing field"... On a tilted playing field, they tend to fall off during strenuous activity!

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    158. Re:Another one bites the dust by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1

      The issue is the exhaustion of resources, the production of waste and pollution, and the loss of free space. Food isn't the only, or even the main issue. I want a citation for your "expected to crest soon," (the growth rate is declining, of course, but you know how trends work) and even so 10 billion is huge - the global population didn't even reach 1 billion until the 19th century and only reach 2 billion around the middle of the 20th, and we're looking at a 5-fold increase from the population our grandparents experienced? Can you quintuple the number of people living in your house?

      I actually believe that I will contribute more to society through my work than through my child, but perhaps my career has a bigger impact than yours does. That's not meant to be judgmental. In any case, teaching a child not-to-be-a-leech isn't that hard. It's like congratulating yourself for not crapping in your pants.

      Most culture is passed on unconsciously, and children learn what their parents model. The real "culture" most of us pass on in the West is consumerism: we are obliged to buy, and produce so we can buy, until we die. I would also remind you that some of the most horrid living conditions of recent memory - the mid-20th century totalitarian states - included the most "cultured," the most educated, the most "modern." (I think of the USSR as definitely being the product of modernity.)

    159. Re:Another one bites the dust by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1

      You are using the word "value" without clarity. What is valuable to a person may not be valuable to the world as a whole.

      I also don't know where this talk of traits comes in, either. Are you talking about some theory of inheritable genius? Or are you talking about eugenics?

    160. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've sit in on enough academic hiring committees to know that identity politics and diversity are big motivators for the hiring decision, and if two candidates are remotely in the same league, the one that hits the most diversity-flags will get the offer. Almost every time.

    161. Re:Another one bites the dust by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1

      Nature and nurture get cut up to fit peoples' ideologies all the time, both on the right and on the left.

      On the right, biology is an acceptable explanation for gender differences - but not an acceptable one for differences in sexuality; homosexuality is often characterized as a choice.

      But on the left, it's reversed: biology is A-OK for sexuality (unless you've read your Foucault and Butler), but not OK to explain gender differences except as a very last resort.

      One of the reasons I've become increasingly non-partisan is that I find rampant intellectual dishonesty all over the place, and the resistance among liberals and progressives to any biological or genetic explanations is one of the more glaring bits of intellectual irresponsibility.

    162. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The differences between boys and girls in brain development occurs very early. I have to agree with the indictment that the public school system in America has so desperately wanted equal outcomes between boys and girls in mathematics, that they've sabotage boys from learning them well. Boys have less development in the corpus callosum, which means that a lot of dendritic growth and regional development in the spatial-cognition areas which doesn't occur in girls. Instead, girls tend to get the significant cognitive benefits that come from a thicker corpus callosum, including more advanced linguistic ability and other types of reasoning.

      Girls have historically not be taught to their strengths, and it is to everyone's benefit if they are. However, optimizing human potential for everyone is different than trying to hammer every one down to an equal level. The Harrison Bergeron model of education is why I am keeping my kids out of public schools.

    163. Re:Another one bites the dust by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      Not true because, as someone pointed out, a lot of boys do the same. You don't get to join the popular circles by being a math whiz.

    164. Re:Another one bites the dust by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      I would not say going by personal experience is ill-informed. Clearly certain women do exist that are like that. No where did I state that all women are like that so it's not like I'm generalising about a whole group.

    165. Re:Another one bites the dust by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      Being a man I personally don't think men are evil and yes the comment is a bit overboard but the way some people go on about how hard it is to gain equality, they're essentially saying that.

      My only real gripe with "equality" is the push for women to be kept on the same level as a man despite leaving work for a year during maternity leave and it has nothing to with their gender. I think anyone who leaves for a year can't possibly expect to just jump back in and reap the rewards of the people who were working during that year.

      But it's also the fact people push for this in the name if equality while ignoring the fact that maternity leave is unfair itself as the women get a year and the man gets 2 weeks.

      If you want to say a woman is more suited to watch the child, that is fine. But the mere fact a woman doesn't have to take all that time off and instead can opt for as little as 2 weeks herself and imply giving the kid to a stranger while she works is better than the father is just insane.

      I'm all for equality because it is fair but only when it's done properly.

    166. Re:Another one bites the dust by lgw · · Score: 1

      I want a citation for your "expected to crest soon," (the growth rate is declining, of course, but you know how trends work)

      http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=world+population+peak

      Can you quintuple the number of people living in your house?

      There's plenty of land. In America, the "number of rooms per person" (the total number of rooms in everyone's houses divided by the total number of people) has almost doubled in the past 25 years. Technology makes life better faster than popluation grows.

      I actually believe that I will contribute more to society through my work than through my child, but perhaps my career has a bigger impact than yours does.

      Well, there's a tail to every bell curve, so I won't say you're wrong, but are you sure you can't teach your children to be as useful and productive as you? Did you know there's a low correlation between wealthy parents giving their children money, and those children being wealthy as adults, but a high correlation between wealthy parents teaching their children "how money works" and those children being wealthy as adults? Teaching your children how to live well is *huge*.

      The real "culture" most of us pass on in the West is consumerism: we are obliged to buy, and produce so we can buy, until we die.

      So if you think that's bad, don't do that. ;) Act the way you want your children to act. Children spot hypocrisy. But I'm sure you know that.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    167. Re:Another one bites the dust by justinlee37 · · Score: 1

      No I didn't. Look closer. I'm not the OP.

    168. Re:Another one bites the dust by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      This is easily explained. The younger generation of men isn't interested in doing hard jobs like becoming doctors, because there's lots of women who will happily go to school and become doctors, or go into other well-paid professions, and work all day to support a live-in boyfriend who sits at home all day playing Xbox.

    169. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I can vouch that such programs exist. But this over the top affirmative action usually comes from kinda bullshit "toy" academics, the sort who failed to find a post at a major state school.

      So you were presumably studying at some liberal arts collage whose students all say they came for better teaching, but really just feared the non-high-school-like social life found in major state schools.

      Does it really surprise you that maybe your English lit professor didn't understand affirmative action theory all that well? You choose him because he "explained things well", totally ignoring the fact that his peers hadn't selected him for a job at an important university.

    170. Re:Another one bites the dust by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      What are you talking about? I went to a large state university with a well-funded "diversity program."

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    171. Re:Another one bites the dust by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      So early in the 1900s, the US Army IQ testing "proved" what everyone already knew -- that Irish and Italian immigrants were inherently dumber. But now that's not true any more. What could have changed? Did the genetics of the Irish change so much in the last 100 years that they no longer suffer from inherent biological disadvantages? Or was it that the culture they were living in changed?

      Actually, it was most likely nutrition and health care. Same for blacks.

      Being poor leads to bad health care and bad nutrition. These lead to a lack of advanced brain development, which leads to lower IQs. Improve those factors and you improve the smarts.

    172. Re:Another one bites the dust by level_headed_midwest · · Score: 1

      I am sure there are a lot of explanations as to why women go into medicine, but in my experience, the "to support a live-in boyfriend who sits at home all day playing Xbox" isn't one of them. In my experience, more women than men go into medicine because they can be supported by a husband or their parents much more so than men. Men are not supported by their parents after undergrad nearly as much as women are and have a much different social and financial situation to face. Many women in my class are married to men a few years older who mostly have college degrees and are working so they don't have to borrow a boatload of money, live in the same crappy apartment they did in undergrad, and eat the same PBJs and macaroni and cheese that they ate during undergrad. Fewer men are married and those that are generally are married to other students or to women who are otherwise not in a financial situation to help defray much of the costs of medical school. Some of those women in med school might end up supporting their husbands for a while as the husbands stay home with the children while the women work all day, but likely not supporting some bum of a guy. They would just divorce the bum, throw his butt out, and then the women would keep the most of the money they'd earned- it's not like a male doctor divorcing a bum of a wife and having to give her almost all of the money he'd earned, plus pay alimony after it's over. Plus, many medical specialties have very flexible schedules to allow for having children, which is something women tend to rank much higher on their list of "must haves" than men do.

      One thing to remember is that the makeup of the people who are admitted doesn't say nearly as much as to who is interested in going into medicine as the number of people who apply and are reasonable candidates. There is at least an order of magnitude in difference in the number of people who want to go to medical school and the number that actually gets accepted, due to the limited number of medical schools. My experience is that the admissions committees tend to look at female applicants much more favorably than male applicants of the same race as medical schools are very much politically-correct when it comes to admitting applicants. Thus you may very well have a skewed picture of who is really interested in going into medicine just by looking at who got in.

      --
      Just "gittin-r-done," day after day.
    173. Re:Another one bites the dust by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I said that rather tongue-in-cheek. I don't mean to insult women in medicine; I'm just making a snarky comment based on something I see a lot with the younger generation: perfectly attractive, well-employed young women (20s) supporting total bums who just sit at home and play Xbox and talk about how they want to make a "career" out of being a tattoo artist when in reality they just go hang out at the tattoo shop for a while but never bring home any money. It seems like there's a lot of men in this younger generation who are good-for-nothing, lazy losers, and for some reason, plenty of women willing to enable that behavior.

    174. Re:Another one bites the dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why chess competiotions are still dominated by men?

  8. Taking vs Excelling by Tanktalus · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't really care whether there is a gap or not, but I am a stickler for accuracy. Taking the course is not the same thing as passing or excelling. It's an important metric, but not the only one. Perhaps we have a "traditionally disadvantaged" group being pushed, in the name of equality, into an area they dislike because it doesn't come natural, and they're barely passing. That's not success - that's a failure because these people probably would be more successful in life playing to their strengths rather than weaknesses.

    I'm not saying that's the case. But it's a plausible explanation for the results in TFS, while not dismissing the myth, I'd say they have to do more work and study to proclaim this myth busted.

    1. Re:Taking vs Excelling by harryandthehenderson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm pretty sure if a woman is being awarded a Ph.D in math she is definitely doing more than barely passing.

    2. Re:Taking vs Excelling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah. I mean, I have female friends, and they're not good at math. So it's not sexist when I say that I think that an indeterminate number of "more studies" need done.

    3. Re:Taking vs Excelling by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Try reading TFA instead of just TFS. It goes into a reasonable amount of detail, and should help dispel some of your doubts. (Unless, of course, you're already determined to reach the opposite conclusion, in which case there's no reason you should confuse your pretty little head with facts.) Girls perform at least as well mathematically as boys in a number of countries, including those where there's a lot less worry about "traditionally disadvantaged" groups than there is here in the US. You'll have a hell of a time pinning this on political correctness in Korea ...

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    4. Re:Taking vs Excelling by MozeeToby · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's maybe true when you're talking about high school math programs, but TFA also mentions the gaps closing in under and post graduate work as well. The guidance counselor might convince you to take calc your senior year, but I don't think anyone is going to convince you to make a career out of a subject you hate.

    5. Re:Taking vs Excelling by Tanktalus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Congratulations. The plural of anecdote is not data.

      I have a degree in Electrical Engineering. I hated it. I'm not using it in my career (other than on my resume to say "I have a Bachelor's Degree.") I did more than barely pass (well, most of my courses - the arts electives weren't so hot). I'm not data, either.

      In short, one article neither proves nor disproves. I'm neither convinced the conclusion is true nor false. And, like many episodes of the MythBusters (entertaining though the explosions are), I remain skeptical of the "busted" tag based on the evidence presented. The evidence is lacking. Mind you, the assertion in the reverse has no (scientific) evidence, either, which is why I remain skeptical in that direction as well.

    6. Re:Taking vs Excelling by Dynedain · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not necessarily. At the architecture school I attended, foreign students routinely received credentials and adjusted grades for sub-par work. Usually because the culture at the school was to attribute the deficiencies to the "language barrier" instead of individual aptitude or skill. I also routinely saw professors advancing and showing bias towards students because of gender (in both directions).

      It's the same thing as people complaining the IE thread earlier today. If your website statistics show no Opera users, it's not necessarily because there are no Opera users, but could be because your site doesn't work for Opera users.

      Statistics regarding gender/ethnic/any type of diversity within a field do not in and of themselves negate myths or pre-conceptions regarding gender/ethnic/any type of diversity and ability in that field. This was the point the grandparent was making. Essentially correlation != causation, but with a more directed focus than the generalized meme.

      Take for example basketball and American football, sports dominated by African-American players. Are African-Americans genetically more predisposed to athletic ability than whites, latinos, asians, or polynesians? Or is the prevailing African-American socio-economic culture of poverty and poor education provide primarily athletic means of escape and is geared more towards rewarding that route? Arguments can be made in both directions, and certainly both factors play a role, but simply looking at the number of players in those sports does not prove or disprove any speculations or myths regarding innate tendencies, nor does it prove or disprove the existence of bias or bigotry.

      --
      I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
    7. Re:Taking vs Excelling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In all fairness Daniel, you appear to be quite determined beforehand to find that people who disagree in this thread are bigots.

      Keep in mind, too, that there is nothing inherently wrong with having gender roles, even roles that are quite impressed upon people.

    8. Re:Taking vs Excelling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is such a thing as barely passing for a Ph.D. - it's just at a higher level than barely passing for a bachelor's degree or a master's degree. In any case math departments all over the world are actively trying to recruit women, so women don't need as much ability to get a career in math. This is unfortunate, since it puts an initial presumption of lesser competence onto even the women who are fully competent to the mens' level.

    9. Re:Taking vs Excelling by harryandthehenderson · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily.

      Unless it's being awarded from a diploma mill like Patriot University, then yes they are more than barely passing. No accredited university worth anything is going to hand out Ph.Ds to people who don't deserve them.

    10. Re:Taking vs Excelling by Smashe01 · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure if a woman is being awarded a Ph.D in math she is definitely doing more than barely passing.

      What do you call the person who graduates last in his class in med-school? A doctor.

    11. Re:Taking vs Excelling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's true, but you're forgetting that 'a degree' and 'a PhD' are two completely different things. They're both degrees, yes, but a PhD is not something you could do if you hate it, and only get it to call yourself doctor. If you went through x years of undergraduate, possibly another y years in masters (depending on country), and then z years in a PhD (which requires a publishable paper at the end of it), then you're either a masochist, or you love the subject and are very good at it.

      disclaimer: I intend to start a PhD this year, and my current physics department is ~1/3 female for undergrad/PhD students/staff, although none of the female staff hold the title of professor.

    12. Re:Taking vs Excelling by WCguru42 · · Score: 1

      I've never been to med school (can't deal with the dead bodies and insides and stuff) but yeah, the person who graduates with the lowest grades (or last in line, if you were being literal) is a doctor just the same as the one with the highest grades. Now, the better the student the better the residency but still, a doctor none the less. Make sure to keep that in your mind the next time you go in for surgery (or when the eye doctor puts that light ever so close to your eyes).

      --
      "Educate the mind but never at the expense of the soul."~Blessed Basil Moreau
    13. Re:Taking vs Excelling by swillden · · Score: 1

      Girls perform at least as well mathematically as boys in a number of countries

      I'm not really arguing that there is a gender gap, but I have to point out that at the very pinnacle of mathematics, the people who are making significant new breakthroughs, there is an almost complete lack of women. No woman has won the Fields Medal, for example.

      Perhaps given time we'll see more parity in not just ability to do well-understood school-level mathematics, but also ability to make grand new leaps. Or perhaps we won't. I'm open to either possibility, and have no problem with the idea that there are differences between men and women.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    14. Re:Taking vs Excelling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed! The extremes are usually populated by males. The best mathematicians, the best chefs, the best hair dressers...usually male. The same goes for the worst. Men have evolved to impress women. "All civilization was just an effort to impress the opposite sex. And sometimes the same sex." It's all a result of competing for females. Basic evolutionary psychology. This keeps getting proven over and over again, but those who religiously believe that men and women are psychologically identical and the human mind is a blank slate keep ignoring the facts (and basic common sense). It's like they reject evolution altogether, and, instead, believe in some divine goddess creating men and women perfectly "equal" (read: exactly the same).

      For those who can actually reason, I recommend reading Steven Pinker's works, starting with The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature .

    15. Re:Taking vs Excelling by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      It seems to be generally accepted that for most traits the outliers tend to be men more than women. It isn't that women, on average, are worse at X than men but that the very best (and worst) tend to be men even though the means may be equal.

      However I look forward to the day when feminist organizations start demanding more recognition of violent women, moronic women, psychopathic women, child molesting women, abusive women and so on. After all women are just as capable as men at the good and the bad, right?

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    16. Re:Taking vs Excelling by skelterjohn · · Score: 1

      Hah! Universities will hand out PhDs just to get rid of some people.

    17. Re:Taking vs Excelling by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      not true at all, many graduates of medical school score low enough to not match with a residency and not be able to find one when they start looking for programs desperate for say, the proctocologist).
      you would not call this person anythign because they would simply have an MD but never gotten the training to become a doctor.

  9. Obligatory XKCD by spinkham · · Score: 5, Funny

    Obligatory XKCD:
    http://xkcd.com/385/

    --
    Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
    1. Re:Obligatory XKCD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      This should be modded Insightful.

  10. Honestly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Does it really matter? There are countless abilities that differ between the two genders...
    and between left and right handed people
    and those with black or red hair
    and those with blue eyes
    or darker skin...
    The list goes on, what of it?

  11. But Barbie said... by querist · · Score: 1

    Barbie said that "Math class is tough!" (often misquoted as "math is hard.")

    http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/21/business/company-news-mattel-says-it-erred-teen-talk-barbie-turns-silent-on-math.html

    It's funny how these inaccurate stereotypes find their way into the stranges places.

  12. Social or Biological? by Manip · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We have a statistic, 70% of PhDs in Mathematics go to men and up to 30% go to women.

    But does this tell us anything about the abilities of both men and women to compete at that level? It might, but it also could be social. Boys are from a very young age encouraged in Maths, Engineering, and Sciences while a lot of girls are encouraged to embrace their social and emotional sides.

    If you look at a Psychology, Social Science, or English they have an extremely disproportional amount of women in them. Just as Maths, and Science often has a disproportionate amount of men.

    PS - Too few women in Maths/Engineering is "broken." Too few men in Social Science/Child Care/Psychology is "fine."

    1. Re:Social or Biological? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That kind of thinking is always warped: There are too many black in prison, but not too many in the NBA. Hmmm.....

    2. Re:Social or Biological? by istefany · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Too few women in Maths/Engineering is "broken." Too few men in Social Science/Child Care/Psychology is "fine."

      That's not true. Specifically, I know that there has been a big push to get more men involved in education. The motivation for this is that young boys (and even teenage boys) who are behaviorally disruptive in class respond very well to a male teacher. And that's a win for everyone. Unfortunately, teachers are not well-payed, so it's hard to get people into the field, period, let alone men.

      Also, re:

      If you look at a Psychology, Social Science, or English they have an extremely disproportional amount of women in them.

      Try taking a look at MA/MS/PhD enrollment in those fields. Much closer to 50/50. No one really cares about undergraduate degrees.

    3. Re:Social or Biological? by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the "little" distinction of women getting pregnant. Which is something that men simply cannot do.

      Not to put it bluntly but numbers may be down because some women choose (or oops) to have children early in life. Attending later on is more difficult and thus numbers would be down.

      Many of these would not attend university. Some do. Some guys don't attend due to the responsibility also. Some don't

      Statistically if that is what we are speaking, I would bet this effects negatively women than men (and by that I just mean that less actually may go because of that determining factor). Yes some single mothers also go. The difficulty curve just goes up and likely the numbers go down again.

      In any event this natural biological function will account for some statistical variation, and likely that variation will tend to favor males.

      You can make the same arguments for simple statistical arguments for workplace equality.

      That is not to say that is the only factor, only that is a significant one that is ignored usually in the name of equality.

      Granted I didn't RTFA, so I have no idea how they came up with their numbers nor how they did their statistics. If it was based on a ratio or per/capita it wouldn't be too bad a description other than that is all it is. Trend is simply over time.

    4. Re:Social or Biological? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      But does this tell us anything about the abilities of both men and women to compete at that level? It might, but it also could be social. Boys are from a very young age encouraged in Maths, Engineering, and Sciences while a lot of girls are encouraged to embrace their social and emotional sides.

      Wrong, at least for the US.

      Here in the USA, boys aren't encouraged in math, engineering, or especially science. Instead, they're encouraged to go into sports or singing (American Idol). Boys who don't do well in these are encouraged to become real estate agents or mortgage brokers.

      Maybe things are different for you in the UK (as you called it "maths"), but kids, boy or girl, are NOT encouraged to go into science, math, or engineering fields here.

    5. Re:Social or Biological? by iwein · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, teachers are not well-payed, so it's hard to get people into the field, period, let alone men.

      ... Since men are better at math (and generally smarter), they're less likely thwarted by the job interviewers at schools to take the crappy teaching job for ideological reasons. There, fixed that for you.

      --
      Show a man some news, distract him for an hour. Show a man some mod points, distract him for the rest of his life.
    6. Re:Social or Biological? by lavacano201014 · · Score: 1

      There's too many players in hockey, but not too many teeth. Hmmm... (Side question, is my grammar OK?)

      --
      A wise man once said, "Where is my other quotation mark?
    7. Re:Social or Biological? by pbhj · · Score: 1

      In any event this natural biological function will account for some statistical variation, and likely that variation will tend to favor males.

      Don't come here with your well thought out scientific arguments dammit, the numbers of women in any particular [nice] role must be at least as many as the number of men or equality is not being served.

      Strangely no one is arguing for more women in sewer maintenance.

    8. Re:Social or Biological? by Locke2005 · · Score: 2, Funny

      70% of PhDs in Mathematics go to men and up to 30% go to women. All this tells us is that having a PhD may help you get laid, but if you have nice tits, then you don't need a PhD.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    9. Re:Social or Biological? by story645 · · Score: 2, Informative

      ... Since men are better at math (and generally smarter), they're less likely thwarted by the job interviewers at schools to take the crappy teaching job for ideological reasons.

      Guys don't teach cause it's a traditionally female field* (read here for usual reasons) not 'cause they can get better jobs. The equally gender skewed male equivalent is probably a technical job like repairmen, carpenter, or electrician.

      *acceptableness of male teachers is inversely proportional to age of student, which is why there are as many male professors as female ones, but very few male pre-school teachers)

      --
      open source modern art: laser taggi
    10. Re:Social or Biological? by hedwards · · Score: 1

      That's not true. Specifically, I know that there has been a big push to get more men involved in education. The motivation for this is that young boys (and even teenage boys) who are behaviorally disruptive in class respond very well to a male teacher. And that's a win for everyone. Unfortunately, teachers are not well-payed, so it's hard to get people into the field, period, let alone men.

      That's not the problem, well it's one of the problems, but not the only one. This is going to get tougher and tougher as time goes on, mainly because misguided attempts to shoehorn women into highly technical fields. Pay is one thing, but it gets tough to do when you can't do quotas and there's a distinct lack of individuals with relevant qualifications. Which is a natural consequence of the toxic environment and tendency to put off a vibe of being anti-man, particularly anti-white man.

    11. Re:Social or Biological? by onkelonkel · · Score: 1

      "Unfortunately, teachers are not well-payed, so it's hard to get people into the field, period, let alone men."

      Just arguing for arguments sake here, but haven't you got it backwards. If it was hard to get people into any field, the supply would be low, the demand high and basic economic theory would tell us that the price (salary) should be high? Low salaries for teachers indicates to me an abundant supply and a limited demand. No? Am I missing something obvious?

      --
      None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
    12. Re:Social or Biological? by oldhack · · Score: 1

      "We have a statistic, 70% of PhDs in Mathematics go to men and up to 30% go to women."

      Up to? When 70% go to men and less than 30% go to women, who (what?) get the rest?

      --
      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    13. Re:Social or Biological? by Click+and+drag · · Score: 1

      As a student at a science and mathematics focused high school, as well as a recent graduate of the standard public primary education system, I can say that the theory that boys express or are guided to more interest in math/science is at the very least anecdotally patently false. As a mere student, I have no quantifiable or rigorous evidence (a little help TJHSST teachers? I know you're out there), but as I say, all anecdotal evidence points to girls being equally as interested and equally or more successful in the math and science areas than boys. Of course, being guided is something else all together; there are three (3) at my school organizations devoted to encouraging/assisting/whatevering girls in the math/science areas. Guess how many there are for boys.

    14. Re:Social or Biological? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your grammar for that one sentence is fine. If you are a non-native English speaker looking for grammar corrections, I recommend saying so in your .sig. Normally grammar corrections are considered impolite as they are off topic and many Slashdot users are not native English speakers.

    15. Re:Social or Biological? by Quothz · · Score: 1
      And now for... Off-Topic Adventures with Quothz! In today's episode, Quothz answers a question asked sotto digitare by lavacano, whose email is hidden:

      (Side question, is my grammar OK?)

      It is okay, yeah. "There's" should be "there are". The first comma is superfluous. The comma in the parenthetical comment should be replaced with a colon (followed by a capital "I"). In a highly formal context, the parenthesis should be omitted, but they're fine in anything that isn't gonna get beaten with a style manual.

    16. Re:Social or Biological? by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      You're missing the fact that teaching is funded out of local taxpayers' pockets and the fact that demand for teachers shifts up with the ability to pay for them. In other words, rich school districts who can afford to pay well for a dozen top-of-the-line teachers to teach only 200 kids will do so, whereas when poorer districts need to get five teachers to teach 200 kids they can't even afford to pay the same wages as the rich district. The NEA and government requirements also interfere, so that when you combine relatively low wages with long hours and a large education requirement nobody really says material prosperity or gain in becoming a teacher.

    17. Re:Social or Biological? by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      The racial makeup of our prison population may say more about our drug laws and their enforcement than about the prisoners themselves.

    18. Re:Social or Biological? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not Manip.

    19. Re:Social or Biological? by Tacticus.v1 · · Score: 1

      Yep
      Most people don't want to pay tax and think that teachers earning SFA are already over paid
      when someone working a checkout is earning the same as a first year teacher why would you be a teacher?

    20. Re:Social or Biological? by tsotha · · Score: 1

      I don't know how it is in other countries, but as a man in the US you'd be barking mad to be a teacher. The child predator hysteria has reached such an (unwarranted) fever pitch you may as well just check yourself into prison.

    21. Re:Social or Biological? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a woman, I see something that it seems the comments visible on the main page here are missing.

      I have a daughter now 12. I'm always telling her, "You do what is fun for you. So get good at something and then it will be fun and then you will do it more--it works both ways, those things feed each other, and eventually you're REALLY good and it's a great hobby."

      I also tell her, "If you want to learn [x], make up a real-world project for it so you have inspiration to learn to apply it and can make something out of the effort." These are basics of human life from a very early age.

      Thanks to Google and youtube she is better self-educated at every obscure thing than I can imagine. (And many I don't want to, probably.)

      I really like math and in some alternate reality might have pursued that. But here is why I think me and my girl-friends were less inclined to math, than to english or psychology or something.

      When I was growing up, I cleaned the house. A lot. That was my duty. Most my buddies just took out the trash and otherwise had a lot more time to spend hanging on the street with skateboards or bikes than I did. I spent most my extra time reading or writing or singing because they were things I could do alone and in the house. Occasionally when in a context that church was around, singing and social elements came in. That was pretty much all there WAS for me to do.

      (I was an only child off and on through dad's 5 marriages, so I spent a lot of time playing games against myself. I was such a cheater! But I always won.)

      I had male friends who helped their dad rebuild the engine on the truck, or make cabinets for the kitchen. They'd been making model airplanes and stuff since they were little. So they were already working indirectly (or sometimes directly) with math, etc.

      When I was 18 I demanded of my father, who was still suggesting I might cut off something important if allowed to mow the lawn, "Had I been a boy, would you not have had me out there in the garage doing wood work, auto mechanics, etc. probably from the age of about 5?" He admitted, "Well yeah, probably." (I'm not saying I resent this. I'm simply saying that one cannot ignore 'previous culture' in the role of the present culture.)

      Who was forced to learn _AND USE_ math in practical and immediate ways, throughout life, my male friends or me? Who found a good reason for it and 'had fun' doing it?

      So, not shockingly, who already had a lot more experience, skill, and seeming-aptitude, for math even in school?

      In High School I was accidentally placed in metal shop when it began. The class was all guys but me and they were openly begging me to stay. I considered it, particularly for the popularity element (though I'm interested in nearly all forms of construction). I never saw so many guys fawning over [rather-boring] me [well aside from when I was 18 in the CCC in CA and the vast majority of the folks were men and the majority of women were lesbian, but that's another story] -- but alas I only had TWO electives.

      The one they had left me out of was choir. I only had two things in my life -- music and writing and I couldn't drop those. While my guy friends had been learning everything from mechanics and woodwork to firearms earlier in life, I had been learning to read and write poetry and stories and sing. So sadly, I had to leave metal shop. I'd have been forced to learn a little more about even basic math and reading blueprints or whatever else might be involved (I don't know).

      During my high school years, my buddies were in metal shop, and wood shop, and mechanics, and of course various slightly higher math courses in many cases, but they were STILL "using math proactively, actively, on real-world projects, in a way that helped develop their skill and made it fun." With dad, or with buddies, or with neighbors or relatives.

      Even in normal settings, normal activities, for cultural reasons it just often leads men to doing stuff where even indirectly they are forced to learn some

    22. Re:Social or Biological? by XcepticZP · · Score: 1

      You can't honestly try to push that "drug laws" are the reason for there being more black people in prison than white people. Unless you're implying that black people use/sell more drugs than white people. I can give you quite a few plausible reasons for that disparity, at least for drug related crimes:
      -Bias by police.
      -Bias by juries.
      -Culture in black communities.
      -Culture in white communities.
      -Hip-hop and RnB culture. You'd be surprised how many young black children are badly influenced by that kind of music.

    23. Re:Social or Biological? by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      So neither police nor juries matter in the enforcement of drug laws? Also, the laws against cocaine are biased against blacks (crack versus noncrack).

    24. Re:Social or Biological? by ahabswhale · · Score: 1

      It was "fine" until people realized there was a problem. In fact, it was encouraged for women to go into teaching for many years because most people believed (rightly or wrongly) that they were better teachers. Considering that now any adult male who even glances at a child the wrong way is likely to be accused of being a pervert/molester/statutory rapist, have fun getting men into teaching. I wouldn't consider it even if they quadrupled the salary. The funny part of this is that female teachers are having sex with students all over the country but nobody ever questions whether women are evil perverts or whether they should be trusted. Double standards for everyone I say!

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
    25. Re:Social or Biological? by tez_h · · Score: 1

      That's not true. Specifically, I know that there has been a big push to get more men involved in education. The motivation for this is that young boys (and even teenage boys) who are behaviorally disruptive in class respond very well to a male teacher. And that's a win for everyone. Unfortunately, teachers are not well-payed, so it's hard to get people into the field, period, let alone men.

      Indeed I suspect there is some outward pressure (socialogically, biologically, what's in the balance?). But is also there also a greater liability for, at least in terms of the current progression of student vs teacher rights, harassment or sexual assault?

      -Tez

      --
      Haskell, the static-typed, lazy, polymorphic, programming language.
  13. bearing on what's politically correct by 2ms · · Score: 1

    So does this mean that it's hereby not only politically correct to say that females have better verbal abilities than males, but now also higher overall aptitude too?

  14. Just a thought by Xeth · · Score: 4, Insightful

    (not meant to necessarily have any correlation with reality)

    People seem to assume that what is happening is that previously, cultural norms dictated gender inequality when there was no biological basis, and now that those norms have changed, biological equality is restored. Couldn't it be the other way around? I.e. that there is a biological inequality, that is being altered by cultural factors to produce equality?

    --
    If your theory is different from practice, then your theory is wrong.
    1. Re:Just a thought by bendodge · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'd support that. The obvious biological difference is that women can bear children. Since at least some women are going to be in their gender exclusive career (kids), of course they're going to be fewer women in careers available to both men and women. What we have here culturally is a mistaken notion that women are somehow inferior if they don't imitate men. Feminists have long been trying to get women to imitate men in every way, and it's causing a serious problem with the birth rates. Women were designed to have children, not be breadwinners. That's primarily the man's job. I'll probably lose karma for supporting the traditional family model, but if we don't get our birth rates up, Western society soon won't have any family model at all. (Just Google "global birth rates", "birth dearth", or similar terms.)

      --
      The government can't save you.
    2. Re:Just a thought by istefany · · Score: 1

      Women may be designed to actually give birth, but that doesn't mean they have to be in charge of raising the children afterward. It is, technically, a 9-10 month commitment on the outside, and after that, men are just as qualified to raise children, if *they* can get over their gender roles phobias. Happy family, happy society, yay, we all win.

    3. Re:Just a thought by level_headed_midwest · · Score: 1

      If you really want to get down to the "designed for" part, men aren't "designed" to be the only one raising infants since they lack the ability to feed the infant themselves. (Yes, there is infant formula today that a man could feed an infant, but that is a modern invention and not an innate capability of men.) Women have two organs specifically attuned to this very task.

      --
      Just "gittin-r-done," day after day.
    4. Re:Just a thought by story645 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Women were designed to have children, not be breadwinners. That's primarily the man's job.

      And they can't do both because? A bunch of my friends are supporting their husbands (it's a cultural thing in certain branches of orthodox Judaism that has to do with learning Torah all day) while having tons of kids. One of 'em had her first while getting her engineering degree and had 2 more while working on construction sites. Lots of girls I know manage at least two before their husbands ever start working. It's difficult, but doable.

      --
      open source modern art: laser taggi
    5. Re:Just a thought by datababe72 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your statement that I was designed to have children and not be a breadwinner is insulting. These two things are by no means mutually exclusive.

      I have a PhD in a science field. I work at the intersection of science and IT. Through a combination of luck, work, and ability I have done pretty well in my field, and have a good career that pays well. If you define breadwinner as the person bringing home the majority of the household income, that would be me.

      I also have a daughter and am pregnant with my second child. I breastfed my daughter for almost two years- I've done pretty much all that biology requires of me as a mother as opposed to a gender neutral parent. I categorically do not want to be a stay at home mom. I have a lot of respect for those who do. It is a hard, under-appreciated job, and one that I readily admit I am not well suited for.

      Sure, some women will be stay at home moms. Some men will be stay at home dads- and more and more are choosing to do so as our society becomes more equal. The personality traits that make one a good stay at home parent are not uniquely female. In my family, it happens that my husband would make the better stay at home parent. It also happens that he does not want to do that, and we can afford to pay for excellent day care, thereby allowing us both to continue in the careers we enjoy. Some families decide to have one parent stay home. Some families decide to use day care. The latest research shows no real difference in outcomes for the children, provided it is high quality day care.

      If you're worried about birth rates, you can work to make our society more supportive of working parents. If you insist that the only way society can work is if one parent stays home with the kids... you're pretty much guaranteeing that some percentage of families will choose not to have kids because neither partner wants to stay home.

    6. Re:Just a thought by istefany · · Score: 1

      OK, I'll upgrade my commitment to 9-10 months plus breastfeeding, which brings it up to, what, 2 years max? :) And don't forget pumping and saving milk, but that's also a bit of a modern convenience.

    7. Re:Just a thought by datababe72 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Since none of you seem to actually know what's involved....

      40 weeks of pregnancy, give or take a couple of weeks. Usually, you can work through most of that- although some complications will dictate bedrest and some occupations are less suited for working during pregnancy than others. I'd say "academic mathematician" wouldn't involve any work place hazards that would preclude pregnant women, though.

      Breastfeeding is extremely variable. The current "official" US recommendation is exclusively breastfed for 6 months, breastfed + solid foods until a year, and then breastfeeding after that as long as both child and mother want. The WHO recommends 2 years of breastfeeding.

      I breastfed for 23 months. I went back to work after 3 months. As you say, we now have breast pumps. The limit on using a pump is mostly time and space- you need 15-20 minutes 2-3 times a day, in a private space.

      I'll also point out that throughout most of human history, women have worked while caring for children. They just haven't worked outside the home. Working in the home on non-childcare related things used to be a lot more time consuming than it is now. Have you ever read a description about how to make soap, for instance?

    8. Re:Just a thought by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I prefer parents choose the gender of their child. Only this time, instead of selecting for males, choose female. Would screw with society in so many fun ways, but should also be a solution for that pesky negative birthrate thing.

    9. Re:Just a thought by bendodge · · Score: 1

      Pumping and saving for the future is a bad idea, because a mother produces milk specifically for the baby's current stage of development. For example, if a baby is born prematurely, the mother's body knows that and supplies milk different from what it supplies a baby born on time. The milk has exactly the nutrients the baby needs to develop outside the womb - it's even specific to each baby. This is why an NICU uses mom's milk instead of formulas whenever possible.

      --
      The government can't save you.
    10. Re:Just a thought by that+IT+girl · · Score: 1

      See, I'm a female and I agree with this. I think one of the biggest problems we have today is that for a lot of reasons (two big ones being the high divorce/single parent rate and the economy/general cost of living), it's become more of a luxury for one parent to be able to stay home. Most people can't afford to, so nobody is there to provide a stable environment for the kids, and they lose the structure that seems to be very necessary for development. Then folks wonder why children have so many health and behavioral problems. (Obviously some people can pull off both, but I'd put that number in a very small minority. And you still cannot give either job the undivided attention it deserves if you are doing both.)

      Maybe some women will call ME inferior, but I can't take on the responsibility of having children. I don't really desire to, but even if I did, I know I couldn't stay home with them. And I wouldn't let that desire override what I know would be best for a child. I can't dedicate myself to the extent I know they would need, so I choose not to--anything less would be selfish.

      --
      10 FILL MUG WITH COFFEE
      20 DRINK COFFEE
      30 GOTO 10
  15. Of course it's mostly social influence... by VinylRecords · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I was a sports broadcasting and psychology double major in my undergraduate studies. When I was taking sports broadcasting classes it was a total sausage fest. Thirty guys talking about sports in an academic environment as if it was a locker room. Meanwhile in psychology it was always majority female in classrooms ranging from 60% to 90%. It was because sports writing and reporting is a male dominated field, whereas psychology was a necessary field of study for many female students who wanted to teach elementary or middle school, a field traditionally occupied by women. Also my school was 60% female so a typical class would have 60% women which really emphasized how incredibly one sided sports broadcasting was a major regarding gender divide.

    While men and women solve problems differently, our brains are made up differently so that is to be expected, most studies conclude that even though we solve problems differently men and women reach the same conclusions eventually but they take different paths. Both genders are equally smart but think differently to solve the same problems.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_intelligence
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences

    1. Re:Of course it's mostly social influence... by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

      > Both genders are equally smart but think differently to solve the same problems.

      It boggles the mind how anyone could type politically correct tripe like that and expect no laughter. If you assume men and women think differently there must be fields of thought each will be better/worse at. To postulate that men and women have notably different mental machinery yet are statistically EXACTLY equal in attacking EVERY field of though would require a coincidence so improbable as to, like the poor Babelfish, be seen as the final proof for the non-existence of God.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
  16. Another pissing contest . . . ? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

    In every field which was once exclusively male, but is now no longer, it's been claimed first, that no woman can perform alongside men; second, when the first claim is disproven, that hardly any woman can; and third, when the second claim is disproven, that maybe a few women can, but a majority lack the ability or the inclination.

    . . . so which one applies to pissing contests?

    --
    Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    1. Re:Another pissing contest . . . ? by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

      In every field which was once exclusively male, but is now no longer, it's been claimed first, that no woman can perform alongside men; second, when the first claim is disproven, that hardly any woman can; and third, when the second claim is disproven, that maybe a few women can, but a majority lack the ability or the inclination.

      . . . so which one applies to pissing contests?

      Third one, I'd say. Majority lack the inclination.

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
  17. If women don't know math.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    If women don't know math they might fuck up recipes.

  18. sociology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It might be sociological in nature, but that does not mean that it is due to bigotry of white straight males.. I know, maybe women dont LIKE math as much, statistically speaking.

    1. Re:sociology by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      These days, white straight males don't like math much, either.

    2. Re:sociology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think math was ever a popular pursuit.

    3. Re:sociology by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I think "popular" is a relative term here. But if you go back to the 50s-60s, I think "hard" subjects like math, science, and engineering had a lot more prestige in America than they do these days. Back then, people were really looking towards the future and envisioning grand new technologies, space travel, etc. These days, Americans don't dream like this at all. Instead, their dreams are of getting rich by selling houses and driving a giant SUV. Some of them may have put those dreams on hold at the moment, but that's still the way they think. Other Americans with lofty ambitions pursue lucrative careers such as baristas, cell-phone salespeople, and tattoo artists. And of course, the most ambitious Americans these days pursue a career in music by attempting to get on American Idol.

    4. Re:sociology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      certainly explains why most of our engineering schools are populated from foreign countries. Unfortunate to say the least.

  19. the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In most fields with a gender disparity in either direction, the minority sex is generally, under any reasonable attempt to measure inherent "ability", just as able to do it. The real gaps seem to be in interest: fewer men than women wish to enter psychology as a field, and fewer women than men wish to enter mathematics as a field, to take two examples. Why is that? It's not entirely clear, but it starts pretty early. For example, boys are much more likely than girls to play ad-hoc games that involve numbers and math, even at ages where girls tend to do better in school. Boys are also much more likely to build electronics or program computers as a hobby. Probably much of this is cultural, but that's where the real disparity lies, and you're never going to get parity unless you figure out how to change interest.

    On the other hand, changing interest is always tricky, because you run the risk of trying to tell people they ought to be interested in something they really don't seem to be interested in.

    1. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by Zordak · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Probably much of this is cultural, but that's where the real disparity lies, and you're never going to get parity unless you figure out how to change interest. On the other hand, changing interest is always tricky, because you run the risk of trying to tell people they ought to be interested in something they really don't seem to be interested in.

      There's the real problem. Why should we pursue parity for parity's sake? What's wrong with just having a level playing field and letting people decide what they want to do with themselves. If more women want to do elementary education, and more men want to do engineering, why are we so antsy to push them into something else? On the other hand, if both sexes are equally inclined and have equal ability, then with time they will approach numerical equality. I agree that it doesn't make sense to edge somebody out of a career path because of race or gender or whatever. If Sally wants to be a mathematician, good for her. Let her be a mathematician, and let all of her friends who have the inclincation and ability be mathematicians too. But I don't think it makes any sense to try to force somebody into a field because some social scientist arbitrarily decided that certain career fields need to be 50/50 so that we can have some vague Social Justice.

      And while I'm at it, who's working to close the gender gap in sanitation workers? I don't know if I've ever seen a female garbage collector in my life! Or do the Great Social Scientists only wring their hands about equality in vocations that they deem, in their boundless wisdom, to be worthy of equality? Do they have a list of jobs that need to be equal to achieve Social Justice? Is it on Wikipedia or something?

      --

      Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
    2. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by Locke2005 · · Score: 0

      Boys are better at manipulating physical objects, while girls are better at manipulating other people?

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    3. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by FooRat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not letting women opt to choose the very subjects they're interested in is, uh, the *opposite* of freedom for women.

    4. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by dkleinsc · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And while I'm at it, who's working to close the gender gap in sanitation workers?

      Warren Farrell is a somewhat controversial author on men's issues who has actually spent quite a bit of time exploring this exact question. He proposed, with appropriate evidence, that while women have made great strides in reducing the effects of the "glass ceiling", they tend to ignore the "glass floor" in which men tend to occupy undesirable and often dangerous professions. Examples of these sorts of male-dominated professions include sanitation workers, miners, construction workers, oil rig roughnecks, sailors, farm laborers, police officers, firefighters, and lumberjacks. The reason he proposes for this is really quite simple: the women most involved in feminism tend to be fairly wealthy, and that means that the millions of working-class men in those undesirable professions are essentially invisible to them, whereas the men who are at the top of the food chain are very visible to them, creating a perception that all men are doing better.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    5. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by bosef1 · · Score: 1

      I haven't read Warren Farrell's books, so I'm not really qualified to comment, but who on /. ever let that stop them. A poster near the top pointed out that, in general, men have more upper body strength than women. This has a physiological basis, as men have more testosterone in their system than women, and testosterone is a great anabolic steroid. I'd bet a lot of those "unskilled" or "semi-skilled" blue-collar jobs below the glass floor focus more on tasks that require physical strenght and dexterity. Especially job like trashman, oil worker, miner, lumberjack, and farmer. So you would probably expect to see more men than women in the field, based on the fraction of each sex above some minimum strength. That is, instead of a 50/50 split, the "nominal" split should be something like 60/40 in favor of men. I imagine the problem is that the split is still like 95/5 in favor of men.

      Something else to note: many of the dirty, hazardous jobs have the potential for exposure to a lot of nasty toxic chemicals and metals that build up in the body and have long-term carcinogenic and teratogenic effects. I would expect they have a reasonably linear effect on men's reproductive capability, with capability declining with increased exposure, but with minimal effect on the fetus/child. However, I would imagine they would have a much more significant impact on women's reproductive capabilities, and a much greater chance of harming the developing fetus/child; due to the child remaining in the woman's body and continuing to be exposed to the accumulated toxins.

    6. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      The rest of Farrell's argument focuses on the socialization of men, particularly working-class men, that teaches them to sacrifice their own well-being for their families, neighbors, and nations. So what will tend to happen is that poorer men are more willing to take on extra risk in favor of earning more money, whereas women will tend to choose professions that give them more personal freedom and safety at the expense of lower pay.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    7. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      That's true. I think there's an interesting question whether the gap in interest is the result of something else, though. Are young girls with a potential interest in, say, computer programming, discouraged from trying it out as a hobby at a greater rate than similarly aged boys with similar interests? If so, that might be worth changing, and doesn't require imposing interests on people who don't have them.

    8. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      But what if a woman is not pregnant? Her eggs are inside (are already made), whereas men produce sperm in a more exposed region.

    9. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simply because it's a struggle for power.
      When a woman *discovers* something important in math (like proves Poincaré conjecture), THEN let us know.

    10. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by Dhalka226 · · Score: 1

      I do tend to agree with you that in most cases we shouldn't be pushing anybody to take up any particular field of work just to make our numbers balance out with the general population numbers. However, in the interest of trying to see things from both perspectives let me throw out a handful of possibilities and questions:

      1. Why do specific genders avoid specific jobs? I don't think anybody wants John to be a nurse just to get the nursing splits up, but it would be considerably more disconcerting if John didn't want to be a nurse because "that's a woman's job" versus "I'm not interested in nursing." In fact, nursing would be an interesting example: There are plenty of men who want to be doctors, so it doesn't seem as though there's anything about genders specifically that make men less willing to care for sick people, but there are considerably less men who would consider being a nurse than would consider being a doctor.

      2. What would a different gender bring to a field? Some fields probably just don't matter. At the same time, we know without a doubt that men and women's minds work differently. What perspective are we missing in some fields dominated by one or the other? Could we solve issues or make significant progress just by bringing in people with different ways of looking at things?

      Aaand I let this sit too long and lost motivation, heh. So I'll just leave it there.

    11. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by bosef1 · · Score: 1

      You're right that a man's organs are more exposed and subject to physical injury (think "Ice Pirates"), whereas a woman's organs are internal and thus better protected. And you're right (I think) that, for unpregnant people, the risks to overall personal health from exposure to dangerous chemicals is probably more important than particular risks to reproductive organs. I would further submit that for many blue-collar jobs, the risk of exposure to dangerous chemicals over "usual" is minimal; considering the trash collector, how much raw plutonium is thrown out in the trash every day. I suspect the real answer is to develop consistent non-sexist job perforance and toxic exposure standard. Ones that are as gender neutral as possible, but make sure to highlight gender-specific dangers, too. Continuing with the trash collector job, if a woman can do the work, it makes no sense to exclude her. However, even if the same woman is strong enough to work in the cadmium mine, it may not be in her long-term interest to do so.

      One other difference that may be relevant. For men, spermatogenesis starts at puberty and continues uninterrupted until death (at least according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spermatogenesis). You could imagine a man working in a position that harms his reproductive capability, but then is able to stop working (transfered to another job, desk job, whatever), and get himself cleaned up to restore his reproductive ability as new sperm are generated. On the other hand, women start out at birth with a large but fixed number (reduced to about 300,000 by puberty according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folliculogenesis). You could imagine a woman being exposed to a chemical on a job site that causes permanent, non-regenerating damage to the oocytes. Of course, I'm not a doctor, so I don't know if that's how it works.

    12. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by jmorris42 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      > Not letting women opt to choose the very subjects they're interested
      > in is, uh, the *opposite* of freedom for women.

      Oh you silly silly person. These things are done in the interest of higher morality than what some woman thinks she wants. First and foremost is the self esteem of the progressives dictating the politically correct rules. If they feel better about themselves, for demonstrating their higher moral development and general superiority, then the project is a success. It is about our betters guiding us inferior creatures into a better world in spite of us being unworthy worms that counts. We will be told what do do, nay even what to WANT and we will be grateful to bask in the glow of our betters, knowing that they care for us even though we are unworthy, that they will be our shepherd and show us how to be obedient to their will.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    13. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by indiechild · · Score: 1

      Not sure if this example counts, but there are plenty of female cleaners in all societies. You know, people who scrub the toilets, mop the floors, clean up the spills. Not quite the same as garbage collectors, but they do dirty work all the same.

      I don't know what the exact gender stats are for cleaners, but in the last few jobs I've worked I've seen a lot more female cleaners than male.

      Hmm... which is worse, garbage collection or toilet cleaning...

    14. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by indiechild · · Score: 1

      There are also heaps of working-class jobs in factories which are dominated by women. For example, toy making, textiles, electronics and electrical goods -- basically industries with lots of monotonous assembly-line type work. Just look at your typical TIME magazine photos in articles about industries in China, and almost all the workers are female. I find it quite curious actually since I can't see any particular reason why so many more women than men are working in these fields, but there you go.

      Here in Australia, my mother works on an assembly line putting together meals and cutlery for airlines, and most of her colleagues are female. Of course, there are also lots of men at the company, but they tend to work in other areas such as driving forklifts or delivery trucks.

      I agree that men dominate the dangerous and physically challenging working-class professions, and I guess that's a natural consequence of an innate difference between men and women.

    15. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He proposed, with appropriate evidence, that while women have made great strides in reducing the effects of the "glass ceiling", they tend to ignore the "glass floor" in which men tend to occupy undesirable and often dangerous professions.

      Hmmm. If I recall the purpose of the "glass floor" is so that those men working dangerous, undesirable jobs can look up at women's hoochies.

      OH YEAH! High 5!!!!

    16. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by Zordak · · Score: 1

      I think those are valid points, and I'll even agree with those who argue that historically women and minorities have been largely excluded from certain professions for silly and arbitrary reasons. And perceptions won't change overnight. That's why I say if we open up the fields to everybody who is interested and qualified, over time those fields will eventually get the mix that reflects that mix of interest and qualification. I don't think it will happen overnight. It may take decades. But it will happen. And I don't think we can remedy past prejudices and discrimination with more prejudice and discrimination. I think we're better off making a conscious, concerted effort to open those fields to everybody, and let those who want to come.

      --

      Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
    17. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by hankwang · · Score: 1
      As for the grandparent: all the example "men" jobs require a lot of physical strength, which is simply not so common among women.

      As for the electronics assembly lines: I can think of two things: (1) women are less likely to make mistakes, and (2) small fingers are convenient when you have to handle small electronics parts. I think I have read both reasons somewhere, a long time ago.

    18. Re:the biggest gaps seem to be in interest by Teriblows · · Score: 1

      indeed, warran farrell was a 3 time elected board member of NOW if anyone thinks he's anti woman. the reality is men man most dangerous disgusting and physically destructive jobs. there can be no rational discussion of parity without this consideration, especially when it comes to the whole "pay gap" nonsense. interests are different for the genders. theres nothing wrong with that in fact in some professions like medicine women are disproportionately represented, as medical doctors its becoming lopsided with women. the problem is that activist groups only focus on trying to force parity based on their own idea of what reality should be rather than allowing people to make their own choices. we've seen whats happened with forcing women down the road of the tech industry, many left it during the bust and never went back, i'm sure plenty more have left. female dominated jobs like nursing are well paid these days, and the lack of even handedness in this push for quotas or "help" to force parity shows how corrupt the whole enterprise really is. its really counterproductive, pushing quota/politically correct hiring only guarantees that the merits of any female math professionals is questioned by default. i also remember there was another study where accelerated math programs for girls only in some high schools yielded rather poor results as well. the girls could do math, but almost none choose it as a profession or major once they left for college.

  20. pshhh! by ilblissli · · Score: 0

    if women were able to grasp basic mathematical skills my wife would know how to balance a freaking checkbook and understand why she can't buy a 300 dollar pair of shoes.

  21. Windows of opportunity to learn by davidwr · · Score: 3, Interesting

    By the time you are 20, your brain has gone through several "windows of opportunity" which are the best time to learn specific skills. For example, the window of opportunity for foreign languages for most people is in preschool.

    If a given culture discourages certain members from learning certain skills until after the window closes, these individuals are now stuck with what might as well be an innate disadvantage in that area.

    For these individuals, it's not important whether they could have been good at this or that if only they had taken classes when they were younger, the important thing is that if they do try to learn it, it will be relatively hard for them.

    Plus, there's the whole issue of experience, someone who starts learning a skill at age 5 will have a 15-year head start on someone who starts learning a skill at age 20.

    --
    As societies, we need to accept the fact that there are very few if any things beyond giving birth or being a wet-nurse that either gender has an inherent advantage in if both are given equal opportunity and encouragement when they are young. All or almost all "gender-specific" advantages are created by the environment in which we live.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:Windows of opportunity to learn by EdgeyEdgey · · Score: 1

      I don't suppose you could list what should be learnt at each age. I'm not picking a fight. I'm genuinely interested. I totally agree that foreign languages should be learnt as early as possible. For example, In your opinion what age should we learn about:
      Maths
      Programming
      Geography
      The opposite sex
      Politics
      Music
      etc...

      --
      [Intentionally left blank]
    2. Re:Windows of opportunity to learn by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      By the time you are 20, your brain has gone through several "windows of opportunity" which are the best time to learn specific skills. For example, the window of opportunity for foreign languages for most people is in preschool.

      Research is showing that such effects may be much smaller than previously thought. Language for example. If a thirty year old is immersed in a new language and spends as much time practicing it as a preschooler, he or she will usually pick it up at a similar rate.

    3. Re:Windows of opportunity to learn by Lunzo · · Score: 1

      I'll second this. I did a seminar on 2nd language acquisition at uni. The gist of the research was that there is no real difference in outcomes between adult and children learners. The differences are in the ways one learns and that adult learners will keep their accent but children under 12 won't. The emphasis on reading, writing and grammar with set study works for adults. Children are better off with less formal guidance and with a focus on speaking and listening.

    4. Re:Windows of opportunity to learn by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Thank you, I was going to mention the accent thing but forgot. As I understand it, it's believed that when we're infants our repertoire of phonemes is pruned to reflect those we actually use in the languages we're learning. As adults, or older children learning a new language, it IS more difficult to learn to properly pronounce the missing phonemes, so you generally have an accent. It's fascinating.

    5. Re:Windows of opportunity to learn by i_b_don · · Score: 1

      I have no emperical data but I totally agree with you. Children are immersed much more than adults and adults talk differently to children who are learning the language than to other adults.

      I'm American currently living in Japan with two small kids. How other people treat me learning Japanese vs how they treat my 2.5 yr old is totally different. they'll correct him, use simpler words, speak slowly, teach him, and praise him when right. If you're an adult, other adults will try to speak to you on their level. It is incredibility hard to pick up a language with other people speaking at full speed using more advanced language.

      IMHO this and the level of Immersion kids face are the two huge advantages kids have when learning a new language IMHO. I no longer believe all that BS about "kids being intrinsically better at picking up languages" and crap. (Although the accent comment may be spot on...)

      d

      --
      all language nazi's will burne in heil!
    6. Re:Windows of opportunity to learn by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      As societies, we need to accept the fact that there are very few if any things beyond giving birth or being a wet-nurse that either gender has an inherent advantage in if both are given equal opportunity and encouragement when they are young. All or almost all "gender-specific" advantages are created by the environment in which we live.

      Who told you that "fact"? I mean there are so many counter-examples one would have thought you'd have noticed.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    7. Re:Windows of opportunity to learn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you saying men are as good at lactating and giving birth as women?

    8. Re:Windows of opportunity to learn by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Since I've just moved to a mostly french speaking area I'm trying to learn the language. I've taken regular language classes in both french and spanish, and was surprised by my progress, but this time around I've got a copy of The Rosetta Stone. I figured I'd see if it could live up to the hype. I'm not sure how well it's working yet, but it does take an interesting approach. There's no translation, as there is in regular language classes. You're never told "voiture" means car, for example. Rather, the software shows you several pictures of cars and bicycles, each labelled (and a recording played) of "la voiture" or "le velo." To introduce new concepts, such as color, you see cars but in different colours, etc. The idea is to teach the language the same way you learned your first language. It will be interesting to see how well it works. The lessons are certainly more interesting.

      On another note, I noticed that when english speakers meet someone who doesn't understand english we often speak louder. In Spain, when I was slow to get the point they'd frequently talk faster. I guess that idea was to say things in more ways and maybe I'd catch one of them, but it didn't work any better than the english way.

    9. Re:Windows of opportunity to learn by i_b_don · · Score: 1

      When i first started learning Japanese just a little before i moved here I took a class that taught in the method you described. Now different people learn differently, but I found that method of teaching, teaching only in the foreign language and not using any English, to be a waste of time.

      For the way I learn I needed to be able to bound the meanings of words. If I left the word meaning open ended (maybe that's car?... maybe that's vehicle?... maybe that's wheel?... maybe that's "to ride"?), I found that I couldn't just say "ah, that's a car" and memorize it and move on. When I gave up on that approach I did much better... but again, different people learn differently and no place is that more apparent than in language.

      And the interesting thing here in Japan is that a number of people know english but not very well, so when I first got here I could typically communicate better using their crappy english over using my even more crappy japanese. I found that the best way to communicate to someone in a language that they're not good at is to slow down, pronounce everything clearly, and to use simplified words/language. Speaking clearer can sometimes lead to more volume so that each syllable is heard. ... or maybe the English speakers were just being stupid...

      d

      --
      all language nazi's will burne in heil!
  22. Simply doesn't address the real issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is an extremely dishonest story which does not address the most basic issues involved.
    What Summers said at Harvard is supported by the evidence and remains the best explanation
    for the "gender gap." Indeed, he felt confident that he could "get away" with his statements
    because the evidence is so overwhelming and the facts so obvious.

    Consider any number of physical traits the measurement of which is not controversial
    (for instance, height, weight, ratio of arm length to leg length, etc.) A few empirical observations
    can be readily made:

    (1) the distributions are roughly Gaussian --- this make sense as these traits are controlled
    by multiple genes and some version of the central limit theorem is operational

    (2) the means vary by gender and ethnicity

    (3) the standard deviations vary by gender and ethnicity

    (4) a pattern quickly emerges: for virtually all traits the STANDARD DEVIATION
    of the male distributions is somewhat larger than the female distribution --- although
    not by much. Again this makes some intuitive sense --- men are biological more expendable
    then women so more variation in male traits can be tolerated.

    I can hardly be expected to believe that physical traits (the measurement of which is generally
    not controversial) are unique in having property (4). Especially when the observable
    data available for mental traits exhibits a difference in standard deviation.

    This difference in standard deviation predicts what we see in practice --- if we set
    a high threshold and look at the number of men and women with ability above
    that threshold we expect the ratio of men to women to be large. Because this
    is an effect of differences in standard deviation, it is not observable near the
    middle of the distribution --- only at the tails.

    There are many many articles which conclude that there is no gender gap
    in mathematical ability because the mean of the male and female distributions
    are the same or similar. I am not familiar with every such article,
    but every one I have read --- including the two famous Science articles ---
    presents observational data showing a difference in STANDARD DEVIATION.
    An issue none of them seem to address.

    Incidentally, any one familiar with the error function can easily
    see that the variations in the ratio of men to women whose
    mathematical ability exceeds a given threshold by ethnicity are
    also predicated by this approach (to startlingly high accuracy --
    do the math!) This again follows simply from the fact that
    the mean and standard deviation of biological characteristics
    vary by ethnicity

    Everything I have said can be verified to a ridiculously high level of
    certainty by someone with basic knowledge of Stat 101 and a copy
    of Excel.

    1. Re:Simply doesn't address the real issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But it won't be, because your opinion is the unpopular one. Isn't life grand?

    2. Re:Simply doesn't address the real issue by ehack · · Score: 1

      So, the fact that an explanation is mathematically correct doesn't make it "right". :)

      The above was for fun. However, what you are are referring to is a model of the existing distributions. It is not obvious that the variances could not also be trimmed by varyng educational constraints, if an effort were made to do so.

      --
      This is not a signature.
  23. panz by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does the debate have to be who is better at math? Let's assume there are gender differences in brain physioogy and social conditioning, and that some of these differences will continue to exist even in an "equal" society. Isn't it possible that men will be "innately" better at some kinds of mathematics, and women will be "innately" better at other kinds of mathematical thinking. And isn't it possible that by understanding these potential differences and working together in productive teams, we can make better progress as a result? Wouldn't that be a win-win situation?

    1. Re:panz by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Who cares about gender differences? Just encourage every kid to find what they want to do and do it. It's certainly possible that men are better than women at certain things, and vice versa, but it's equally true and more important that individual differences are more significant than group differences. For all I know, women in general aren't as good at algebraic topology as men are, but that doesn't mean women shouldn't be algebraic topologists, or that when constructing a team that needs an algebraic topologist we should make sure we get a man.

      In the meantime, gender imbalances are evidence, although hardly conclusive, that there's some stereotyping going on. If there's stereotyping going on, some people are being discouraged from doing what they should be doing, just because they've got the wrong number of Y chromosomes.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    2. Re:panz by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Just encourage every kid to find what they want to do and do it. When I was a kid, it was obviously to me what I really wanted to do required the willing participation of a member of the opposite sex, and while it might be useful for the propagation of the species, there was no way I could make a living by doing it.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  24. Absolute NO gap? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

    To say that there's no gap means that whatever statistic is being used for comparison, it has the exact same value for the population of men as it does for the population of women.

    The likelihood of that being true is essentially zilch.

    The real questions should be: (a) how big is the gap, and (b) is it big enough for us to care.

    1. Re:Absolute NO gap? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're studied math, but not statistics. There are common trivial definitions of significant differences vs insignificant ones based on random chance.

    2. Re:Absolute NO gap? by lavacano201014 · · Score: 1

      I'd like to revise: Is there a gap at all? (If yes, continue) Is it big enough for us to care? (If yes, continue) How big is it? (If bigger than 20%, prepare for accusations of bigotry from the general moron public)

      --
      A wise man once said, "Where is my other quotation mark?
    3. Re:Absolute NO gap? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      You're studied math, but not statistics.

      Not true. I've studied both.

      There are common trivial definitions of significant differences vs insignificant ones based on random chance.

      If you're referring to randomness due to sampling, note that I talked about a statistic over the whole population of men/women, rather than from a sampling of them.

  25. It's not that women are getting smarter. by DigitalReverend · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think men are just getting less intelligent and they think differently than they used to. You see, in the 200+ year history of our country, we've sent our strongest, mentally stable and most intelligent men to die in wars and left the weaker and less intelligent and mentally unstable at home to breed. Through unnatural selection, we've thinned our own gene pool. The male gender has become more effeminate and now it seems they think like women instead of men. It's not the women who are getting smarter, it is us men are are getting dumber.

    --
    I read Slashdot for the headlines, because the headlines, unlike the articles, are usually original and never duplicated
    1. Re:It's not that women are getting smarter. by nausea_malvarma · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You see, in the 200+ year history of our country, we've sent our strongest, mentally stable and most intelligent men to die in wars and left the weaker and less intelligent and mentally unstable at home to breed.

      Bullshit. The army doesn't recruit our most intelligent students. Infact, Army Recruits with a High School diploma were at an all time low in 2007. That isn't to say army recruits are not smart, or that having a diploma necessarily means you're intelligent. But it's not a case of taking our best and brightest to wars and leaving our worst behind. Throughout history, America's army has drawn it's members from all backgrounds. It has not exclusively selected intelligent people.

    2. Re:It's not that women are getting smarter. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are using an oversimplified model of genetics to place too much emphasis on the genetic component of intelligence. Genes only provide a foundation; any genius could easily fail if they were raised in the inner city with no parental support.

      I think that any perceived shifts in average intelligence are more likely tied to shifts in cultural values and social views of intelligence.

    3. Re:It's not that women are getting smarter. by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      do you hear the sound of the joke flying over your head?

    4. Re:It's not that women are getting smarter. by DigitalReverend · · Score: 1

      Just because the intelligent people aren't volunteering today, doesn't mean they weren't drafted during the major wars.

      --
      I read Slashdot for the headlines, because the headlines, unlike the articles, are usually original and never duplicated
    5. Re:It's not that women are getting smarter. by nausea_malvarma · · Score: 1

      A draft is random. The chance of an intelligent person getting drafted is the same as someone who isn't. Thus, the military does not exclusively select intelligent people. And besides: a typical intelligent person might have a better chance of becoming an officer or working behind a desk if they were drafted, because they might have non-combat skills that are more useful to the military.

    6. Re:It's not that women are getting smarter. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Replace strongest, mentally stable, and intelligent with brave, honorable, and selfless, and I'd be inclined to agree with you.

  26. why oh why by snl2587 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why oh why would you ever want to change interests? That's my whole problem with this debate whenever it comes up.

    The real "solution" to this "problem" is to allow boys and girls to go into whatever field they so choose and encourage them no matter what.

    1. Re:why oh why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heretic! You must bow at the alter of equal outcomes!

    2. Re:why oh why by pbhj · · Score: 1

      exactly

    3. Re:why oh why by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Why oh why would you ever want to change interests? That's my whole problem with this debate whenever it comes up.

      Because those interests were formed in a society whose prejudices steered those interests away from certain fields they might otherwise have been interested in, that's why.

      When a girl isn't interested in math/engineering because her father/mother/teachers/peers/crush tells her that she shouldn't be interested in those things, that is something that should be changed.

      The real "solution" to this "problem" is to allow boys and girls to go into whatever field they so choose and encourage them no matter what.

      You can't really think that this "solution" is what we'd have if we didn't have any women-in-science outreach, do you? Sitting here in this thread, where we have, as usual, men stating as fact that women simply aren't as interested in math and the gender gap is natural, you can't possibly believe that.

      The whole problem here is the lack of encouragement for women going into math. More so, it's systematic societal discouragement. Which, understandably, changes the interests of many girls. And thus we must go out of our way to show that women are desired in these fields simply to counter that effect and come closer to the "solution" you desire. Until we eliminate the sexism that pervades these fields, the "problem" is real and your "solution" cannot exist.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    4. Re:why oh why by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      If we were fair and followed our common sense, the psychology and sociology departments that do work on sex disparities would lose their ability to use the buzzwords of society's past sins to procure funding! Therefore, we cannot have fairness or equality, but most swing the pendulum of inequality in the other direction, guaranteeing work for academics and think-tanks for decades to come!

    5. Re:why oh why by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Why oh why would you ever want to change interests?

      Because if the interests are cultural, then perhaps there needs to be a little pressure to make cultural pressures gender neutral so that there is a freedom of interests. If a girl really likes math, they are pressured to not persue it because it isn't feminine. There exists pressure one way now, and only with artificial pressure the other way will there be a true choice of interests.

    6. Re:why oh why by pem · · Score: 1
      Yes, I know a lot of people who believe this.

      Most of them have not raised children.

      People who have raised children know that (in general), little girls and little boys are different, right from the beginning.

      And this particular parent has two girls who, despite my best efforts, are not interested in the slightest in programming or engineering.

    7. Re:why oh why by XcepticZP · · Score: 1

      Then maybe you should address the pressures themselves, rather than applying a different kind pressure to supposedly fix the first one. What makes your "pressure" more righteous than the natural one that is in society at the moment? For all the girls that you supposedly push into the right direction with your "intervention pressure", how many more are you pressuring in the wrong direction? Just like society's "pressure" doesn't affect all girls, so too will your pressure not affect all girls. It will affect some girls, and those girls may or may not be the ones that were being pressured in the wrong direction in the first place, before you decided to pressure them in what _you_ thought was the right direction.

      Woah, I think I said the word pressure like 10 times or something in that last paragraph. Anyways, I hope you all understand my point.

    8. Re:why oh why by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Why on Earth is the choice not real because pressure exists one way or the other? Pressure and preference exist in every choice. Stop trying to counteract free will for the sake of feminism.

    9. Re:why oh why by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Then maybe you should address the pressures themselves, rather than applying a different kind pressure to supposedly fix the first one.

      If the pressure is that any profession with a majority of one sex will be seen as slanted towards that sex, and thus attract more of that sex and less of the other, how do you address the pressure? The pressure is directly caused by gender inequality. The "fix" is to mandate that the profession be half of each, and everyone agrees such mandates are stupid. So, rather than addressing the first pressure (impossible without utterly stupid and quite illegal legislation), a secondary pressure is applied that is aimed to be more subtile and less intrusive than even the primary pressure and aimed at lessening the effect of the primary and undesired pressure.

    10. Re:why oh why by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      What does free will have to do with this. No one is taking away your choice if a financial incentive is attached to one choice and not another. You are still free to choose whatever you want. That you are a weak-willed spinless sap that will choose whatever the last person that spoke to them suggested doesn't mean that's what happens with everyone.

      Oh, and apparently your agrument is that trying to remove preference from a choice to make them equal choices is somehow removing free will. So, by allowing more equal choices, we've somehow limited everyone's choices? That's a contradiction. You argue against yourself quite well. But no, that didn't stop me from also arguing against your illogical position.

    11. Re:why oh why by XcepticZP · · Score: 1

      But see that's where the justification falls apart. You have to actively prove that the current "ratio" is not the one that is meant to be. And I will agree with you without question if you can prove that what I said in my previous question. I don't mean to sound arrogant about this, but good lucky trying to prove it.

    12. Re:why oh why by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      What does free will have to do with this. No one is taking away your choice if a financial incentive is attached to one choice and not another. You are still free to choose whatever you want. That you are a weak-willed spinless sap that will choose whatever the last person that spoke to them suggested doesn't mean that's what happens with everyone.

      Thank you for arguing my point for me. We need not put "pressure" on girls to go into certain fields because they have a right to choose what field they go into, and if they choose something other than mathematics because someone suggested that math is "uncool" or "unfeminine" then they're just "weak-willed spineless saps".

    13. Re:why oh why by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      And then you argued my point. That pressure doesn't matter, so whining about whether someone is or isn't doing it is a fucking waste of breath. So take your own advice and shut the hell up. You are the weak willed spineless sap that is wasting time arguing about something you claim doesn't matter. If it didn't matter, then you wouldn't argue the point. So take your illogic elsewhere.

    14. Re:why oh why by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You have to actively prove that the current "ratio" is not the one that is meant to be.

      So says you. And I can. It's changing constantly and consistently. As such, until the net change is zero, there is active proof that it isn't in equilibrium. It's easy. It's done. And it proves that there are external forces. So, now that we've covered that you agree with me, since I have active proof, what are you going to do about it?

      I'm guessing that you'll change your logic to approve of your personal beliefs, rather than actually agree that proof (and there is tons out there, but the fact that ratios are predictably changing indicates that pressures exist and that it isn't in the "meant to be" category).

      Even if you deny all proof out there, to hold your stance that if it were proven it would be a different matter, what would you suggest if proof was presented that you did accept? There must be some proof you'd accept, or else you were lying that someone was allowed to prove it. So if this proof were presented, showing that the "natural" ratio was 60% female and 40% male, but that the existing ratio was 60% male and 40% female, what would you do? Quotas? External pressures to bring things into line? mass executions? To have given the premise so much thought, you either have made up your mind it is impossible, and are just playing word games to harass others, or you have an idea of what an appropriate fix would be. So I'm curious about your fix because it seems to me that proof has been given numerous times (every study I've ever heard about on the matter indicates that the ratio isn't what it "should be" even if you don't accept them as proof) so consideraton should have been given to the fix, even if you don't think it applies in this one particular instance.

    15. Re:why oh why by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Wow, look who drags out insults when he contradicts himself. And I quote you:

      Because if the interests are cultural, then perhaps there needs to be a little pressure to make cultural pressures gender neutral so that there is a freedom of interests. If a girl really likes math, they are pressured to not persue it because it isn't feminine. There exists pressure one way now, and only with artificial pressure the other way will there be a true choice of interests.

      You're the one advocating pressure to make people do things your way.

  27. Discrimination in Applied Science by onkelonkel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There is a branch of Applied Science where discrimination and outdated sexist attitudes still rule. The gender balance there is so heinously skewed that no other explanation is possible. There are those that suggest that perhaps persons of the under-represented gender simply aren't interested in this profession, or perhaps they lack the skills to do well, but clearly they are just making excuses for the sexist bigots that still dominate this field. I'm talking, of course, about the School of Nursing, where only 5% of the graduates are men.

    --
    None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
    1. Re:Discrimination in Applied Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having met the nurses that I have, you'd have to pay me a whole fuckload more than the nursing profession pays to work around or for a hall full of bitter, catty gossips

    2. Re:Discrimination in Applied Science by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      I hear the statistics for lap dancers are even more heinously skewed, but that might be more of a demand side limitation than a supply side problem.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    3. Re:Discrimination in Applied Science by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      I'm talking, of course, about the School of Nursing, where only 5% of the graduates are men.

      Yep, which is why concerned parties conduct and learn from outreach programs designed to increase male enrollment in nursing.

      Cue the hordes of free-thinkers irate that people would try to mess with the obvious natural balance resulting from a combination of men's general lack of interest in nursing (which of course has nothing to do with social stereotypes of nursing as "women's work") and not being as empathic as women and thus not as capable at the job. Really, we're just screwing ourselves by trying to give men a leg up against simple biology. The gender gap isn't sexism, it's trying to fix it that's sexism! Am I right, men?

      *waits for hordes*

      Hmm... No? No hordes? Huh.

      Anyway, you may think it's obviously sexism, but this is yet another case of pure biology just happening to justify the transitional prejudices and stereotypes of a particular culture at a particular point in time.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    4. Re:Discrimination in Applied Science by that+IT+girl · · Score: 1

      However, the fact that they work so hard for so little pay probably has a lot to do with the bitterness.

      --
      10 FILL MUG WITH COFFEE
      20 DRINK COFFEE
      30 GOTO 10
  28. So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with either side of the argument. I don't know, and I know that I don't know. But... What's the big deal? Why is it such a faux pas that men may be better at maths or something. It's like, there is a massive backlash any time somebody says anything about race correlating with IQ or something... Well, why shouldn't there be a correlation? There are lot of other physical attributes that are different in different races and sexes, and yet a lot of people (In yet another case of something politically correct or something) seem to think every single person is identical in certain ways, e.g. intelligence. (I have not RTFA, and I have no problem with researching the topic for whatever reason, I am just having a dig at people who instantly think pointing out any difference between people of different race / sex / ... is evil discrimination. Oh, and while I'm on the topic, if you want the door holding open, iron my shirt and make me a sandwich, bitch)

  29. Still amazed at the choices in the US high schools by guruevi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm still amazed that you can CHOOSE to opt out of high school calculus. I live in the US now and I know some youngsters that chose to minimize mathematics in their school schedule and then they wonder why they are stuck at pre-calc in 10th grade. Where I went to school in Europe, the girls or anyone didn't really have the choice. It was 8 hours of mathematics a week portioned between statistics (1h), geometry (1h), calculus (3h) and algebra (2h) and sometimes statistics was interchanged with small episodes of chaos theory or applied mathematics or whatever was necessary for a particular group.

    I believe that the US schooling system needs a complete overhaul in order to create a better knowledge economy. First thing to do is add at least 1h per day to the school day. I see most kids get home at 2 or 3 in the afternoon even if they have to travel 2 hours because they're in an intercity exchange program. I remember being at school until at least 4pm and then you had to do homework and study for the next day too and if you were going to a specific specialty (eg. art, electronics, sports), traveling could also take 1 or 2 hours. The second thing to do is reduce sports activities during school hours to a maximum of 4 hours per week and fill those voids with science, mathematics and art. And for all those living in rural areas it would be interesting to expand electronic schooling so they only have to go to physical building two or three times a week (hybrid of home schooling and standard schooling). Those times should be devoted to a short overview, lab time and testing to make sure nobody is slacking at home.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  30. Math Competitions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_winners_of_the_Mathcounts_competition

    Every single name on the list is either Male or Asian.

  31. Way too simple of a model by shadowofwind · · Score: 1

    I think its too simplistic to put men and women on a continuum and talk about which is 'better' than the other. In my experience teaching math to men and women, they are approximately equal in skill overall. However, on the average they excelled in different ways. Women often organized their thoughts more clearly, while men seemed to get farther kludging their way through things. And at the very high end of the distribution, its not obvious what the differences would be.

    In any case, there are obviously very intelligent mathematicians of both genders at the high end, so there needn't be any debate about that.

    If fewer women become mathematicians than men, maybe women are just smarter about their career choices. Its not like there are a ton of non-academic jobs out there for people with math degrees.

  32. An example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well I'm ending my first year of a Math degree (in Barcelona, Catalonia), and the ratio of men and women in my class is really near to 1:1.
    Those who excel are also equally distributed. Perhaps this is an isolated case, but definitely times have changed (or at least seem to be changing) for good.

    1. Re:An example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry the situation will rectify itself "soon". The final semester of pure math ended yesterday (oh joy!). It started with 7 men and 3 women but in the end it was just 5 men left. Everyone else washed out along the way. I think some of them just didn't care or couldn't care enough about the subject, I'm not a fan either but I decided to hang in there, while others where personal problems unrelated to the subject.

  33. Maybe... by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 4, Interesting

    it's just that men are getting dumber. We have lower enrollments in college. We tend to sit around and watch TV/play video games more than women do. Just a thought.

    --
    Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    1. Re:Maybe... by bitt3n · · Score: 2, Funny

      as a male, I support equality between the sexes by consistently underachieving in every area of my life.

    2. Re:Maybe... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think this is the true reason. We need a communist regime so we can pump out only engineers.

  34. The article is confused by j.+andrew+rogers · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The article is confused about where most of the real differences are purported to be.

    No one credible claims that females have less ability to learn mathematics or crunch numbers in most cases, which is what this article is contesting. In other words, they built themselves a strawman. The differences involve application, not learning.

    What *is* credibly claimed, in the sense that there is not insignificant quantities of direct and indirect evidence in literature, is that females are markedly poorer at certain classes of applied mathematical problems, notably applications involving complex, high-dimensionality metric spaces. Females understand the mathematics just fine, they have relative difficulty applying it to real-world problems when system complexity exceeds a certain threshold. This is largely attributed to male brains having more neurons dedicated to conceptualizing and manipulating spatial relationships.

    There are real differences, but it is mostly in specific areas of the applied side and there is a relatively straightforward causal theory related to brain structure. That people feel it necessary to repeatedly trot out the strawman that women have less ability to learn math while conveniently ignoring supportable arguments for differences in practical ability reeks of a political agenda. There are other biases in application spaces strongly favoring females that also have straightforward causal links related to differences in brain structure but which say nothing about the ability of males to learn.

    1. Re:The article is confused by ViennaSt · · Score: 1

      I have studied Neuroscience for years and obtained a degree in it. You mention spatial ability differences between the sexes and you attribute better performance in spatial problem to more neurons being dedicated to "spatial centers" in men. I believe your argument would be more effective with some citations of this. I mean, at least link to an fMRI scan between two genders while they solve spatial patterns. And does more neurons equate greater functionality? Look into, it's not the case. Whether or not these spatial centers in the parietal lobe have a difference in neuronal metabolism between the genders while they solve spatial problems is a better question to ask. You are right in one thing, a spacial difference does exist.

      A review of 646 articles summarizing gender differences in spatial ability is found here.

      Your rationale behind it...is another story.

      --
      "Engineering. Where the noble, semi-skilled laborers execute the vision of those who think and dream." -Sheldon
    2. Re:The article is confused by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      >> No one credible claims that females have less ability to learn mathematics or crunch numbers in most cases

      Whether you like to accept it or not, women and men are psychobiologically different. Meaning, there are observable, quantifiable and consistent physical differences in the brain and its chemistry based solely on gender.

      As a result, women consistently perform worse at spatial-based tasks than men. Women consistently perform better at communications-based tasks than men. There are millions of well-conducted experiments and studies that re-prove the existence of these and other gender-based differences over and over again.

      It frustrates the hell out of me that the loony 'Politically Correct' regime is so enforced on us and continues to deny any innate gender difference even in the face of hard evidence.
      Most 'normal' people now feel they can't even openly raise the possibility, much less the FACT that we actually are mentally differently-abled BECAUSE of gender.

      Society as a whole will not properly develop until we accept the existence of gender-based ability differences, including mental, as a fact and move on.

    3. Re:The article is confused by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2, Informative

      "I mean, at least link to an fMRI scan between two genders while they solve spatial patterns."

      Beware, neuroscientist. fMRI is getting to the point where, if you're an optimistic person, you might believe it can indicate general position of activation, given a good study design and competent analysis. Meaningful indications of the size of the activated area, or the amount of activation? No way.

    4. Re:The article is confused by ViennaSt · · Score: 1

      I was replying on how to support the claim that there exists anatomical differences in this area. An fMRI would show this--there would exist on average a larger left parietal lobe (if the theory claimed by rogers was true). This is the data that would help support the idea of greater neuronal presence in this area. PET or light scattering imagining would show difference in metabolism. fMRI would not.

      --
      "Engineering. Where the noble, semi-skilled laborers execute the vision of those who think and dream." -Sheldon
    5. Re:The article is confused by lgbr · · Score: 1

      Beware, neuroscientist. fMRI is getting to the point where, if you're an optimistic person, you might believe it can indicate general position of activation, given a good study design and competent analysis. Meaningful indications of the size of the activated area, or the amount of activation? No way.

      The GP makes two claims. First that women having fewer neurons than men isn't likely true. They suggest an fMRI scan to verify this, which you dispute the accuracy of with zero citation. I'm not doubting your claim, but if we're going to be this scientific about it then you absolutely must cite a source. Second is that even if it were true, it wouldn't matter because that's not what improves one's ability to solve spatial patterns which is evidence by the article that they cited.

      Sorry slashdot. This isn't computers, this is science. Any and all claims must be cited.

    6. Re:The article is confused by ceoyoyo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Perhaps I've misunderstood what you've said. fMRI does not show anatomical differences such as differences in size of various brain structures. It is sensitive to variations in blood perfusion, which reflect differences in metabolism in response to brain activity.

      Perhaps you're thinking of standard anatomical MRI, which can be used to look at differences in volume of brain structures.

      Infrared techniques are also sensitive to blood perfusion. They measure something very similar to what fMRI does, although in a somewhat more direct way. Unfortunately, they are only sensitive to tissue close to the surface of the brain. PET using labeled glucose is directly sensitive to metabolism but generally not on a timescale that is useful for looking at something like brain activation during a specific task.

      None of these techniques are really able to provide good evidence for or against Rogers' hypothesis.

      BSc in neuroscience?

    7. Re:The article is confused by justinlee37 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't worry chicken little, the sky isn't falling. Society will move forward just fine.

      Women and men are biologically different. Yes, that's not contestable. We have different organs, muscle structures, and hormones.

      But little (if any) data is ever presented during a public discourse that really shows that there is a causal link between these biological differences and typical gender differences (such as a preferred field of study). To me the social conditioning argument is rather compelling; girls don't spend time practicing math or fixing cars because they're told at a young age that that isn't what "girls do." This is so consistent that I'd imagine you could interview a thousand men and a thousand women, all of the same age, and find that - surprise! - the ability to fix a car is correlated with testosterone levels. But that doesn't mean that testosterone somehow imparts some sort of biological knowledge of combustion engines onto you. Furthermore, if there are gender differences in something such as problem-solving ability, are the differences pronounced enough to be entirely responsible for the widely different activities and occupations that we see men and women engaging in? Or are they relatively minor, and trumped so that we can ignore fundamental social issues and get back to "business as usual?"

      Maybe it would be easier to raise the possibility of innate gender differences without getting publicly shot down if you ever backed any of these claims up with some sort of effective citation..

    8. Re:The article is confused by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Sorry lgbr, this is a discussion board, not a scientific paper and I have better things to do than look up obscure references to satisfy your doubts (a clinical trial using MRI, as it happens). Additionally, if it WERE a scientific paper, when a reviewer, audience member, committee member, etc. raises questions about the ability of the technique you're using to show the differences you claim, it's up to you to cite (or acquire) positive evidence that is is, not vice versa.

      If you're interested, the Wikipedia article on fMRI is fairly good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_magnetic_resonance_imaging. Make sure you take a look at the list of disadvantages, note the spatial resolutions mentioned, and have a look at the third paragraph, which cites reference 4. That's a review paper in Nature Neuroscience, which might be freely available.

    9. Re:The article is confused by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Damn you Slashdot. Igbr, your question made me curious, so I had a look. Here's an abstract you might be interested in: http://afni.nimh.nih.gov/sscc/staff/rwcox/ISMRM_2006/ISMRM%202006%20-%203340/files/03263.pdf

      Coincidentally, it's written by people I know. They tried to measure the minimum detectable change for repeated fMRI experiments. Unfortunately, they're looking at minimum detectable change in serial scans of one subject, whereas we'd really like to know the MDC across subjects. However, since the across subject metric will include additional sources of variation, we can at least use the intra-subject value as a lower bound.

      They looked at two tasks, a finger flexion one and a more cognitive test, the 2-back. In a 2-back test they show a series of digits on a screen and you have to press a button whenever the digit being shown is the same as the next-to-last one. 2-back isn't too hard. 4-back makes your head hurt.

      Both finger flexion and N-back tasks are used a lot because they give fairly robust responses. Testing something as nebulous as "spatial abilities" is probably going to be less reliable than either, but of the two, the N-back test is the more relevant.

      For the N-back they got MDC in the number of pixels activated between about 38% and 23%, depending on how many averages they did.

      Their focus is stroke recovery so they're primarily interested in laterality index. Unfortunately, they only reported the MDC in pixel count as a fraction. MDC will vary not only with how robust a response you get for your particular task, but also by how large the responding region is. As an extreme example, if you measure a response in two pixels, even without noise your MDC cannot be less than one pixel, or 50%.

      So even ignoring all the caveats, you cannot expect to see any changes within a subject of less than about 25%, best case. It's not perfect data, but it probably gives us a ballpark figure. If you actually wanted to do the study you'd first have to scan a few volunteers of both sexes to establish what the inter-subject variability is. You'd then decide how sensitive you wanted your analysis to be, depending on how big you thought the difference between sexes was. Then you'd run the numbers through the formulas to determine how many subjects you need to get the required statistical power. Then you'd go to your supervisor / granting agency and give them the pitch. Even given the best case estimate that's probably going to translate into quite a few scans, at something north of $600 each.

      Certainly nobody should regard "an fMRI scan" as any sort of evidence.

    10. Re:The article is confused by lgbr · · Score: 1

      Certainly nobody should regard "an fMRI scan" as any sort of evidence.

      Bravo. Now we have a worthy rebuttal to ViennaSt's original reply. Yes it's fairly common knowledge in the medical research community that fMRI's are useless for this, but I wanted to see you cite some evidence unlike the ggggp (who, by the way, should also have noted that the slope of a forehead is in direct correlation with human intelligence, making the Anglo-Saxon race the most intelligent.)

    11. Re:The article is confused by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Maybe it would be easier to raise the possibility of innate gender differences without getting publicly shot down if you ever backed any of these claims up with some sort of effective citation..

      You mean the way you did?

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    12. Re:The article is confused by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Once again, the responsibility is on the proposer to cite evidence that a technique is appropriate, not the other way around.

  35. Old news by lattyware · · Score: 1

    This story was used in the A-level general studies paper (Edexel, I believe?)

    --
    -- Lattyware (www.lattyware.co.uk)
  36. Stop checking genitals by syousef · · Score: 1

    When it comes to mathematical and scientific ability, I really don't care about someone's genitals. Stop checking. If a woman shows ability there should be no additional road blocks compared to a man who shows ability. There should be no affirmative action either.

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    1. Re:Stop checking genitals by geekoid · · Score: 1

      And we should all get a pony.

      Since people DO check, then yes we need something in place to attempt to keep the playing field even.

      You are correct, who cares about the gender? I only care about competency. Apparently people like you and I are rare.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Stop checking genitals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One small objection - women should not be exposed to high levels of radiation, i.e. enough to cause damage to her eggs. It is a lesser issue for men as we produce semen rather than having all we are ever going to have already. Granted I should hope that in most cases, such work is done remotely/with lead suits, but I can see a legit case for discriminating against women in nuclear science/engineering for this added safety reason.

  37. MRS or PhD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fact is, it's hardware for a woman to get her MRS in math than to get her PhD. Unlike, say, sociology or psychology.

  38. Who is a bigot and a twit? by cnaumann · · Score: 1

    In short, if there's a difference, it's not the sex, it's the sexism. Anyone who can't acknowledge this is a bigot and a twit.

    I still have an open mind on the subject. Does that make me a bigot and a twit?

    But every time the issue is put to the test, we see that those differences are not nearly as signficant as the bigots desperately believe.

    I find the gender gap in mathematics interesting. While I would like to know why there is a gender gap, I really don't have any personal stake in the reason for the gender gap. Is it inate? Is it social? Is is a combination? All of those would be interesting results.

    I have no desire to shut women out of lucritive jobs in science and engineering. However, I don't think that we are suffering from a shortage of scientists and engineers, and further more I think that these fields are wide open to anyone (man or woman) that is interested. And yet there is still a gender gap. Is this something that really needs fixing?

  39. This argument will NEVER die by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In order to prove that women or men are superior at ANYTHING let alone math, you'd have to have a male and female that were completely identical with the exception of their gender, and raise them in exactly the same social environment with absolutely no variation.

    Since this is never going to happen, there will always be stupid people in the world that really think it matters.

    1. Re:This argument will NEVER die by FooRat · · Score: 1

      In order to prove that women or men are superior at ANYTHING ...

      Anything? Are you sure? Why do we have separate categories for women in athletics then, where they consistently under-perform compared to men by a wide margin? At physical activities they don't come close. To deny that women on average are notably physically weaker and slower than men on average would be beyond absurd, like claiming the sky is purple - the evidence against it is right in front of your face, everywhere you look. And no, it isn't caused by "socialized gender roles" alone, it's basic human physiology. It isn't in doubt, not in the scientific world or anywhere else.

      Now math is a different ball game, but you did say "anything" in capital letters.

    2. Re:This argument will NEVER die by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      And no, it isn't caused by "socialized gender roles" alone, it's basic human physiology.

      Sexual dimorphism is one of those "chicken and egg" situations.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  40. Is that because by geekoid · · Score: 1

    There are more girls taking it, or just fewer boys?

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:Is that because by FooRat · · Score: 0, Troll

      Or maybe boys aren't pushed as hard anymore to truly excel. Perhaps since that would be 'offensive'.

      The title "The Myth of the Mathematics Gender Gap" is nonsensical, because the gap is an existing *fact* that even the article admits! - even after all these decades of feminism, men *still* outperform women in this field - the gap itself thus cannot be said to be a myth at all, the *only* thing still in question is the *cause* of the gap. The title is clearly biased, as it attempts to give the impression there is no gap when clearly there is. When they say "the myth of the gap", only if we're careful will we interpret that very loosely as having been intended to state "the myth that men are intrinsically better" ... but this is not what is stated at all, and it suggests a bias that reveals an agenda - the submitter wants people to misread that as "the gap does not exist" - i.e. something completely false.

      The title of the blog post itself is just "Sharon Begley: The Math Gender Gap Explained ", so the bias may be at the submitter level.

  41. Physical strength by sjbe · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'd say that's inaccurate, too. It would be more accurate to say that the top end of all women can't reach the level of raw strength as that of the top end of all men. There are many women who are stronger and faster than a number of men.

    Completely accurate but incomplete. Men on average have significantly higher upper body strength than women. Aside from being simply obvious there is a vast amount of data to support this thesis. Men overall also have greater ability to build muscle than women. One simply has to watch a bodybuilding competition to see the difference in potential. There are some women that exceed many/most men in a given sport but no women that exceed all men when strength matters. Outside of a few niche sporting events, men hold virtually all athletic world records where strength is a meaningful factor. This holds true at every level of competition and every age past puberty. Even at relatively low levels of performance and even with adequate training most women measurably under-perform their male counterparts in most sports. If these differences did not exist, there would be little reason to have women compete separately from the men.

    I cannot reasonably address the mental differences between men and women but there is NO question that men are physically stronger on average or in peak potential. It's ok to admit that there are at least some differences between men and women.

    1. Re:Physical strength by dargaud · · Score: 1

      One simply has to watch a bodybuilding competition to see the difference in potential.

      How is this relevant to anything but the ability to soak up Anabolic Steroids without dying immediately before the competition ? At least you should compare sexes in a real sport (one that uses brains and muscles, there are so very few of them).

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    2. Re:Physical strength by sjbe · · Score: 1

      How is this relevant to anything but the ability to soak up Anabolic Steroids without dying immediately before the competition ?

      Umm, because even with unlimited access to steroids women can't compete. The top women body builders don't even get as strong as the men who win in "natural" competitions (read drug free).

      At least you should compare sexes in a real sport [gdargaud.net] (one that uses brains and muscles, there are so very few of them).

      I'll ignore your bitter and incorrect thesis and just ask why would I do that when my entire point was to compare muscles only?

    3. Re:Physical strength by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, men in general exceed women in general when strength and/or speed are the major factor.
      There are no women who can beat the top men. However, looking at the extreme end isn't a very good picture.

      If you look at any athletic sport, starting in high school, going through college, and professionally, even the worst performer on the men's side will rank in the top group of the women's side. In high school I ran in the worst third of Junior Varsity cross country- and at my best meet I was one second slower than the all time state record for the women (I would probably have beat it but I quit after freshman year when my dad got this cool thing called a "home computer"). The girl who won state that year had a time on the 3 mile that would not have qualified her for our men's Varsity squad.

      This also holds true for almost the entire population. Now, I'm not saying that a 500 lb fatass man can outrun a 120 lb female sprinter. But if you take two people with similar levels of training and physical conditioning, you can lay good money on 95% of the men coming in above 95% of the women, and at LEAST 5% of the men passing ALL the women.

      Once you start hitting late life, the gap pretty much goes away as age cripples both sexes fairly equally... for a short while in the latter part of mid-life the women do catch up a little, then people start breaking bones, etc.

      When it comes to measuring stuff like mental ability, using industry statistics is always going to give you a skewed result. If 90% of the jobs have been created, fine-tuned, and generally custom-fit for men over the years, then it certainly makes sense that women have a tougher time doing those jobs.

      On the other hand, using things like graduation rates, degrees, and job positions to justify the absence of a gender difference is just as flawed. Those simply are not good measurements to use.

      One thing is for certain- Men and Women do tend to think a little differently. That does not mean there is a gap in capability in general, but there are specific tasks that lend themselves more to a female brain and vice versa.

    4. Re:Physical strength by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Men overall also have greater ability to build muscle than women. One simply has to watch a bodybuilding competition to see the difference in potential.

      Did you just seriously suggest watching a female bodybuilding competition.

      Ewwww. Seriously, dude. EWWWW.

  42. Re:Another one rides the bus by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

    Men and women are different

    No no no... you got it all wrong. It's "Women be different than men!"

    Now personally, I was pretty strong in math when I was in high school - but the best math students were girls... So I never really thought of math as a guy thing.

    --
    Bow-ties are cool.
  43. Hold on there! by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    These days, white straight males don't like math much, either. Well, I'm a white male and I think math is just fabulous!!! Oh, wait...

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  44. Dear mod, by dr_wheel · · Score: 1

    You are a smelly pirate hooker!

    1. Re:Dear mod, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well I modded your OP up for the funny reference I wanted to do, but I couldn't find a youtube of it...Every time I want to make a funny movie quote, the best one can consistent hope for is a list of quotes on a site - which isn't nearly as funny or effective as seeing the clip.

      BTW, fuck the mod who put you as a troll. My Navy friends and I - women included - regularly quote from that movie, because quite frankly it's hilarious and ridiculous. And good portion of that is with a nod and a wink, no less.

  45. Re:Still amazed at the choices in the US high scho by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The second thing to do is reduce sports activities during school hours to a maximum of 4 hours per week and fill those voids with science, mathematics and art.

    reducing highscool extra-curricular / sporting time would only lead to an increase in the already rampant obesity rates. new plan.

  46. Re:Of course by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

    Did you seriously just fall for that troll?

  47. Draft women? by sjbe · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If women want to display equality, they need to compete on equal ground.

    That presumes that the ground IS actually equal which I would argue it probably is not equal - not yet anyway, though it is headed in the right direction. Nevertheless I agree with your sentiment that for true equality to exist the playing field should be level and many old prejudices need to die. Personally I'll concede that things are equal or nearly so when women in the US have to register for the draft.

    I've always found it ironic that most women who claim to be for equal rights never seem terribly eager for certain dangerous responsibilities that should go with those rights. For example I see no logical reason why women in the US are not forced like the men to register for the draft. Women clearly are capable of serving on a voluntary basis, and most of the jobs in the military apparently can be performed admirably by either gender. Yet I've NEVER heard a single self-described feminist clambering for the right to be drafted into military service. Sometimes rights come with ugly responsibilities. Seems like a double standard to me.

    1. Re:Draft women? by freemywrld · · Score: 1

      Have you ever considered that many of those same women likely oppose the draft in its entirety?

    2. Re:Draft women? by WCguru42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yet I've NEVER heard a single self-described feminist clambering for the right to be drafted into military service.

      Why would they? A feminist is someone who strives for the betterment of women and signing up for the draft doesn't appear to fall into that category. What you search for is the equalicist. They're terribly few and far between but if you ever see one confront a feminist it's well worth the watch.

      --
      "Educate the mind but never at the expense of the soul."~Blessed Basil Moreau
  48. Media propoganda by CherniyVolk · · Score: 1, Interesting

    This is media propoganda, through and through. It's insulting even.

    Women in math? The "gender gap" between women and men in math, even "basic" math has "closed"? BULLSHIT!

    First, "calculus" is not "basic math". It's not needed for most academic majors, nor is it a requirement for entry to so much as a community college. Perhaps, "General Math" is a "basic" math. Perhaps, Pre-Algebra is a "basic" math. But, most certainly, any level of Calculus is NOT a "basic" math.

    Secondly, I have been in five higher education institutions spanning two different countries and have majored in Math in particular along with engineering courses. I also took Calculus in High-school... when I attended a high school that even HAD the course (not all American high schools offer calculus).

    First, anything past Algebra I and Geometry in highschool and you are officially a nerd or geek, therefore you probably have less options of having a girlfriend. The girls have no interest in that sort of thing, nor any male that has such aptitude. If they did, such classes would have a fair number of girls in them, just to be in social alignment with the males fully able of completing the courses. But, look no further than media entertainment, and frankly, being a nerd or smart isn't "hip".

    Ok, so that's more of a social outlook on the issue, and it is. Can girls do the calculus? Maybe, but most don't even if they could, most don't even try or think such a task is even credible to endure.

    As a result, any claims that there are a lot of girls in a high school calculus class, is just that a claim. I dare any of them to actually, physically, literally walk their ignorant butts into a random high-level math class and count with their index finger the number of girls in that class. (This will render a far higher count than if we subtracted the ugly girls from any "attractive" girls.)

    Now, walk to college. This will be easy as randomly roaming the halls of a high school might have the police arresting you. But you can stand around and most colleges and universities. The gap is closing? Bullshit, if anything it's getting wider.

    Of all the years and all the courses of math above Trigonometry I have took, maybe two girls total I might have personally dated . Including all "females", less than ten total. Two of them, were the professors. My Linear Algebra professor was a female, a rather attractive one too. But, the numbers are there, per raw experience. And it only got worse in college and at the highest levels of math females are virtually extinct.

    My gripe about all this, is that they should actually do something to make girls look at being smart as an advantage to life. Instead, if one has a cute ass, they'll just leave Calculus to the nerds and hope her boyfriend becomes a NFL star. Regardless if she could have passed a calculus course, the fact she didn't makes her dumb all the same and since she's among millions of other girls the end result is well reflected that women can't be counted on when it comes to mathematical abilities.

    They want people to believe there are females in these math classes even if they aren't actually physically present. For most people never take calculus, and now they face the few that have and might call them sexist if they announce "uh... I only saw a handful of girls in any of my classes when getting a Masters in Mathematics".

    They want more girls in math? They need to come up with something that actually makes girls consider it as a useful tool in life. As it is now, 10,000 dollars for a hard and burdensome education or an easy and highly profitable breast augmentation? You decide, as inherently lazy humans, which many girls might opt for.

    1. Re:Media propoganda by Angeliqe · · Score: 1

      There are 6 girls in my Differential Equations class including me. I don't think any of them are ugly, but if you like the average college girl sorority look, I'd say there are at least 4 of them and I'm not going to even include myself in that bunch. I wouldn't say the gap isn't there. It is, but the article is suggesting that it is closing. I won't pretend to think that my own experiences suggest a sufficient sample set to confirm or deny this. :P

    2. Re:Media propoganda by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      My gripe about all this, is that they should actually do something to make girls look at being smart as an advantage to life.

      How about we just correct the general anti-intellectualism among both sexes instead? Guys thinking they can get ahead in football or a musical career is essentially the same thing as girls thinking they can get ahead on "a cute ass": banking on one's personal sex-appeal to make it through life. The fact that girls express personal sex appeal through physical appearance and men express it through socially-arranged skill performances only belies the central fact of too many people attempting to make a living off their appeal as mates instead of by contributing to society.

    3. Re:Media propoganda by schrodingers_rabbit · · Score: 0

      The girls have no interest in that sort of thing, nor any male that has such aptitude.

      My all-girls high school requires Calculus. Most students go on to AP and Differntial Calculus before graduating. I am personally very focused on math, science, and technology. Your point?

      --
      #Computers do not appreciate sarcasm
    4. Re:Media propoganda by dbIII · · Score: 1

      It depends where you are and it looks as if it's entirely cultural and driven by peer pressure. In Australia now there is a bit of worry about the balance going the other way - maths is seen as "girly" and boys on average are not doing as well as they should.
      Over the last twenty years there were some very successful efforts to get girls interested in maths which moved the proportion of girls in high school advanced maths classes from around 1 in 15 when I went to school to greater than 50% now. I don't know what it was but it certainly wasn't scholarships at a high school level.

  49. Recently? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    with as many girls as boys now taking high school calculus.

    ...when I did high school calculus in 1979 the M-F mix was the same as any other class. Math was not a 'guy' subject at all.

    This was in a medium-sized factory city in Ontario. Not a university town or anything special. Big blue-collar suburbia.

    I know from older siblings that girls in sciences were not taken seriously by that school just a few year earlier, but that attitude had vanished by the end of the 70s. What's this business about "recently?"

  50. Re:Of course by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

    Yay, /., where if you're not PC, you're 'flamebait'...

    What if OP had said "how many asian mathematicians are there"? That would probably not be tagged flamebait.
    Both would be interesting statistics to see.

  51. Re: men vs women by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm 5'7". That's the same height as Florence Griffith-Joyner (aka Flo Jo). Back in high school I could run faster than Flo Jo did in her 100m and 200m world records. Two problems: (1) I'm not a woman, and (2) I wasn't quite fast enough to compete with the 6'+ men that dominate mens sprints (Hint: 5'7" is ~75%ile for women, but ~25%ile for men).

    I've observed over the years that speed divided by height is fairly consistent for top performers(*), regardless of gender. So I'm confident in saying that I think a 6'2" to 6'5" woman could beat Usain Bolt's 100m and 200m world records. The problem is that there are very few women that tall, and most of the ones that tall aren't very coordinated.

    (* Usain Bolt should be able to run 4% faster if he took some time to work on his stride; compare the videos of Michael Johnson's 19.32s 200m world record in 1996 vs Usain Bolt's 19.30s 200m world record in 2008, and then compare their heights.)

  52. As a female CS major by Angeliqe · · Score: 1

    I tend to agree with the idea that gender has little to do with ability in math or science. As someone who has had to pull a team of 3 clueless guys through a programming project, I can tell you I have no problem keeping up in class. I do recognize that social pressures and conditioning do influence young girls to do other things. My classes average about 1 female to every 5 males. I once volunteered to help some brownies (younger girl scouts about 6 to 8 years old) through an activity in internet browsing at the computer lab at my college. The general impression I got from doing this was that they were more interested in fashion than computers. There was a lame flash game that let you pick a girl, backdrops and music to make your own music video. They went through the selections and when they got to one that looked very studious and wore glasses, they said she was ugly. It was just a cartoon drawing of a girl, so I did not think it was possible for her to actually look ugly, but the girls I was helping said they would never pick her and picked the "pretty" blond girl instead.

  53. A myth ? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

    How come a 70/30 ratio makes this gap a myth ?

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    1. Re:A myth ? by CharlesEGrant · · Score: 1

      How come a 70/30 ratio makes this gap a myth?

      Because 50 years ago the gap was > 95/5. The human nervous system hasn't changed much in fifty years, so surprise, surprise it turns out that cultural factors play a major role in the choice of education and occupation. And yes, there were folks 50 years ago who were happy to claim that the 95/5 ratio was the unavoidable result of the differences in the male and female brain.

    2. Re:A myth ? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      Ok, it did not occur to me first that the difference was attributed to biologic factors. So it makes the biological theory moot but the gap does exist, is cultural in nature and there is still quite a lot of efforts to do in order to close it.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
  54. What about Physics? by ianto · · Score: 1

    Hmm girls taking maths? Now lets just extend maths into physics for the moment. In my college there are just 2 girls in my class out of 20 and about 6 girls in the entire year of physics. Strange huh? Surely there's a correlation between maths & physics?

  55. Tainted results by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Over the years, teaching approaches have been altered to accommodate what are judged to be inadequacies based on race or gender. There has been a focus on providing better outcomes for groups that are perceived to be disadvantaged. I've read several articles in mainstream media about how teaching methods are allowing more girls to flourish and boys are becoming the ones who need more attention and encouragement.

    It's a complex issue, and this study oversimplifies its analysis.

  56. So I Really Am Just a Dimwit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    So the reason I washed out of college level math in my third year is because I'm a dimwit not because I'm a girl? The truth hurts.

  57. it's babies by timmarhy · · Score: 1
    the answer my friends is BABIES. dispite what popular culture has tried to tell you, you can't have a high powered career AND children successfully. There just aren't enough hours in the day so you can neglect your kids (which people do do but it comes back on them eventually) or you can drop hours at work which is going to affect your career, and probably limit your upward movement.

    and all you 20 somethings, wait till you hit 30 and you realise you've only got 5 years left in you to have kids. my partner was never that interested in kids and she's about to have her 30th and it's nothing but talk about babies all of a sudden.

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    1. Re:it's babies by justinlee37 · · Score: 1

      So, why can't the husbands help out with raising the child? Why can't the child be put into a work daycare facility, or supervised by an older sibling? The reason that women don't advance as often as men isn't as simple as "babies." Furthermore, if it was, then how do we justify making women take ALL of the household responsibilities? That's especially heinous when she has a job out of the home on top of it. Men should pitch in. If they did, we wouldn't see skewed gender statistics like we do.

      Also, while I am a 20-something, I happen to be dating a 30 year old and she can't deal with the idea of having kids at all. Doesn't want 'em. She's not even happy with just one boyfriend.

      The point is that there are individual differences between people. Not all women are baby-crazy and I don't think the difficulty of raising children is why women don't advance in the workplace.

      If you wanted to argue that women don't advance in the workplace because men (and other women) thoughtlessly force them and condition them to do ALL of the work in raising children and maintaining the household, then I'd feel like you were getting closer to the root cause in all of this. But your oversimplistic dismissal of the issue does everyone a disfavor.

  58. Brain specialization by wonkavader · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is missing an important point.

    Males have greater brain specialization. (In particular, right handed males have the most.) This is why savants are more likely to be male. Head injuries to males (and especially right-handed males) are more likely to cause the complete and utter loss of some function.

    So you can have female savants, you can have female geniuses, you can have just as many females doing just fine in math, but the overall likelihood is that at the very top of the field, where the people are often badly broken people who specialize in math and seem oddly incapable of anything else, the ratio of males to females will be higher.

    Is this a societal phenomenon rather than a genetic one? While it might be a mix of factors, you absolutely cannot argue that male brains are just like female ones. You need only look at the prevalence of autism in males vs. females to see this. (Unless you're going to argue that autism is all about rearing technique -- in which case we ought to be dressing all our children uniformly in pink.)

    1. Re:Brain specialization by datababe72 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A big problem with your argument is that you are assuming that math professors are all "at the very top" of the math field. I am not qualified to assess mathematical genius, but I don't think this is true- certainly in fields in which I can assess ability, not all professors are at the very top of their field.

  59. Overheard by cowtamer · · Score: 1

    "You know why women can't play Chess? They have small hearts...can't get enough blood to the brain. That's why Chess is a Young Man's Sport!"

    -- Eccentric Chess Player to a bunch of college freshmen hanging out at the Union. I was one of the dumbfounded freshmen...

    It's good to know that Math is not in this category :)

  60. There is and always will be differences. by JustNiz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Whether you like to accept it or not, women and men are psychobiologically different. Meaning, there are observable, quantifiable and consistent physical differences in the brain and its chemistry based solely on gender.

    As a result, women consistently perform worse at spatial-based tasks than men. Women consistently perform better at communications-based tasks than men. There are millions of well-conducted experiments and studies that re-prove the existence of these and other gender-based differences over and over again.

    It frustrates the hell out of me that the loony 'Politically Correct' regime is so enforced on us and continues to reduce to denial any innate gender difference even in the face of hard evidence.

    Most 'normal' people now feel they can't even openly raise the possibility, much less the FACT that we actually are mentally differently-abled BECAUSE of gender.

    Society as a whole will not properly develop until we accept the existence of gender-based ability differences, including mental, as a fact and move on.

    1. Re:There is and always will be differences. by CharlesEGrant · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course the statistical properties of groups don't tell you anything about the qualities of a given individual. Men are on average taller then women, but I'm male, and only 5'6" while one of my previous girlfriend was 5'10". I make my living in a mathematical field, and I work with plenty of women who are much better at math then me. The question is, when we see large group disparities between genders is it nature, nurture, or some combination of the two?

      I did an undergrad degree in physics back in the early 1970s. At that time the number of women in upper-division math and physics classes was about 1/30th the number of men. I heard many folks explain this as a natural result of the innate differences between genders. I also heard several professors explicitly discourage women from taking upper division math and physics because it was not a "suitable" field for women.

      In 2003 I went back to school to do an MS in Applied Math. I was surprised to see that women now made up between 1/5th and 1/3rd of the upper division and graduate classes. Furthermore, the women in the classes didn't seem to have any more trouble with the material then I did. I'm perfectly open to the idea that the distribution of talents in the two genders is influenced by neuro-development and anatomy, but human neuro-development and anatomy didn't change much between 1974 and 2003, which makes me think that the folks who ascribed the gender ratios in circa 1974 math classes entirely to intrinsic differences were full of shit.

    2. Re:There is and always will be differences. by jyx · · Score: 1

      Fair enough, but you should probably include some links to a few of these 'millions' of well conducted experiments. Ill settle for 100.

      To be frank, millions of posts with 'quoted words' and CAPITALS making UN-substantIATED claims ending up being 110% WRONG have made me cautious of taking such posts seriously at all.

      In my own experiences, men are just a mentally differently-abled to other men as they are to women. There are plenty of gender based differences, but I don't think 'being good at [insert mental discipline here]' is one of them

    3. Re:There is and always will be differences. by Teriblows · · Score: 1

      the irony is that the same women will be rather quick to claim that women are better at xyz, multitasking, social interaction, verbal ability etc etc etc. so they've really already shot out their foot on the idea that all things are equal. of course they are never that consistent. ok lets make a deal. we'll let women claim they are every bit as good at math as men if they have to accept that women are just as criminally violent as men and so the only reason that women don't make up 50% of inmates at prisons is discrimination in the justice system.

  61. Help help! Men are being repressed! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You (and all the morons who predictably moderated you up) only see the gender studies you WANT to see and ignore anything that doesn't fit into your pre-determined opinion. It's called confirmation bias and the interwebs is frankly powered by it.

  62. Lawrence Summers was right by treeves · · Score: 1

    Males

    Frequency                 *
                      *               *
           *                                  *
    *                                                  *
    mathematical ability -------->

    Females

                              *
                        *          *
                   *                   *
             *                               *
    mathematical ability --------->

    less variation in females, at both ends

    --
    ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
  63. Not trolling. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a (male) high school student who has taken many advanced math/physics/programming classes, I must say bluntly that not only are the gender ratios very skewed in these classes, but the male students are the brightest. I'll go one step further. The asian students (I'm white) are consistently smarter than the white students. Now I don't know what amount of this is coincidence of my limited sample size, but I have very definitely noticed this.

  64. These studies and articles always ignore issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is so ridiculous. These studies generally tend to ignore so many relevant things including, but not limited to the following:

    1) opposite gender inequalities (men vs. women in nursing or vetrinary)
    2) years dedicated to a field (far more women than men take time off in their early 30s for family, this impacts average salary over time)
    3) actual examples of "different" people actually being better at stuff, such as the way many autistic children are very skilled at math compared to their non-special needs counterparts (certainly not all, but includes girls)
    4) ignores the question of preference vs. abilty
    5) ignores the necessary butt-kissing involved in many fields and whether more women or men are willing to do it
    6) ignores very low paying, dangerous, or unpleasant professions
    7) ignores opportunity differences, especially in examples of areas where the gender gap has been "overcome" (e.g. there are very real differences in scholarships available to poor women vs. poor men)
    8) slices groups of professionals however it is convenient to reinforce their notions (for example women vs. men MDs are always compared, but compare specializations such as Gastrointerology which typically include longer hours and higher stress and it is still dominated by men)

    And any woman that thinks she has an unequal playing field just because she heard some sexist comment from some guy in school can kiss my butt. Seriously, we all put up with BS in school and it doesn't end there, it's part of many professions, especially blue collar ones (which is what most IT, programming, and math jobs end up being).

    And if you want proof I'm a sexist, here ya go: I am a big guy, weigh well over 200 pounds, if a firefighter ever has to haul my ass out of a burning building I hope it's a dude, because I'm not sure most women firefighters could do it (yeah they're strong, but I'm really big).

    Btw, I have a daughter, most of the sexism I fight against comes from her female educators, not the excruciatingly few male ones she has.

  65. Show me by turing_m · · Score: 1

    Show me the female equivalents of an Euler, Pascal, Leibnitz, Newton, Laplace, Riemann, Fourier, Gauss, Euclid, Archimedes, Poincare, Lagrange, or this article is only so much Dvorakian handwaving crap.

    --
    If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
    1. Re:Show me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look up Emmy Noether. Her work is a foundation for much of modern abstract algebra and mathematical physics.

  66. who cares noone that who by nibbles2004 · · Score: 1

    sorry who care's this is the most irelevent and pointless article on slashdot to date, no one cares what the OP has to say as it's irelevent

  67. Nope no bias here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion [as a mathematician] than a white male who hasn't lived that life. You know what I look for most in a mathematician? Empathy.

  68. Missing the point by a mile. by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Women tend to gravitate towards fields which there is a degree of socializing, such as education, medicine (Regular and veterinary), and communications. Men tend to gravitate towards either exciting fields, or fields which they feel will be financial rewarding.

    You're missing the point by a mile. TFA isn't about whether this is so, but rather about why this is so. There is a relatively prominent set of people who insist in attributing this kind of thing to innate differences between the genders; TFA is mentioning studies that rebut that claim, and rather support the counterclaim that the differences are due to culture.

    There is a separate question here that TFA doesn't discuss, but which your quote does bring up: pay differences. I'm not going to argue this one way or the other, but there's a question to be asked as to what extent men gravitate towards those jobs because they're financially rewarding, versus to what extent the jobs are financially rewarding because they're done by men. I know it's hard to think of the latter alternative, but basically, it comes down to the power to set the relative prices for different kinds of labor being overwhelmingly in mens' hands.

  69. The prison gap! by quenda · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is good to hear. Now we can start to address other gender issues.
    The 10:1 gender ratio in prisons is obviously driven by sociocultural factors rather than innate differences.
    We need affirmative action to address this imbalance. To get the ball rolling, I propose a 12 month minimum sentence for parking across 2 bays.

    1. Re:The prison gap! by swarsron · · Score: 1

      We need affirmative action to address this imbalance. To get the ball rolling, I propose a 12 month minimum sentence for parking across 2 bays.

      +5, Insightful. Funny moderation or moderators on crack

  70. Remeber Lawrence Summers? by juggledean · · Score: 1

    From the abstract "The gender gap has significantly narrowed over time in the U.S. and is not found among some ethnic groups and in some nations ... It correlates with several measures of gender inequality. Thus, it is largely an artifact of changeable sociocultural factors, not immutable, innate biological differences between the sexes." http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/06/01/0901265106.abstract The president of Harvard was changed for ignoring this equality.

  71. There's no such thing as innate ability. by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

    People seem to assume that what is happening is that previously, cultural norms dictated gender inequality when there was no biological basis, and now that those norms have changed, biological equality is restored. Couldn't it be the other way around? I.e. that there is a biological inequality, that is being altered by cultural factors to produce equality?

    But the simple problem here is that everybody grows up in a culture, and that this throws the whole concept of "biological ability" out the window. There is no way to establish a baseline level of purely biological ability; all you can do is measure relative differences in the end-results of different cultures.

    If you have Culture A with equal outcome, and Culture B with unequal outcome, there is simply no way of deciding that one of these outcomes is "more natural" than the other without making some value judgement about the cultures.

  72. Lawrence Summers? Remember Sonia Sotomayor. by TomTuttle · · Score: 1

    "I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion [as a mathematician] than a white male who hasn't lived that life." You know what is the best quality of a mathematician? Empathy.

  73. Two things being conflated by Stuntmonkey · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There are a couple of things being conflated in this type of research, which to me muddies the water. One question has to do with performance of people not too far from the median. For this question, I believe it's reasonable to look at how achievement test scores vary with factors like gender, race, culture, nationality, socioeconomics, and so forth. The original research cited here involves data of this type. And the conclusion isn't so surprising: Female performance relative to males is very situationally-dependent. Anecdotally one only needs to look at the gender gap (if one exists) in east Asian students vs. the gender gap in white students. *Maybe* white women are at some genetic disadvantage relative to asian women -- again relative to their respective male counterparts -- but it seems unlikely relative to a cultural factor.

    What these lines of research don't really show -- because there isn't enough comparative data available -- is what are the external factors that most correlate with the gender gap within different groups. Is it culture that drives the variation? (Asians have higher expectations on daughters? Asians don't propagate the "geek stigma" as much for girls?) Is it economics? (Poorer people cannot educate all their kids, so preferentially educate the boys?) Or something else? Who knows.

    The second question being conflated is performance at the far, far, end of the performance spectrum. Fields medal winners represent the 99.999+ percentile. Who knows what defines people out there? There aren't enough of them to really study as a statistical emsemble. It's fair to say that at the high end of any performance curve, a lot of things have to come together simultaneously: Raw talent, motivation, opportunity, persistence, environment, dedication. It could be for example that men have no more innate ability than women, but are just more single-minded in their approach to life. I.e., more men than women are willing to do what Andrew Wiles did, namely hole up in an attic for 10 years to prove Fermat's Last Theorem (with a low probability of success).

    Finally, I think with regard to this sort of research it's important to maintain a dispassionate attitude. When I get the feeling the authors are trying to *advocate* for a particular conclusion, that makes me a bit queasy. There seems to be this unstated assumption that an unequal outcome is indicative of unequal opportunity. Would anyone argue that the relative lack of white men in the NBA is indicative of low opportunity or discrimination? Probably not. Perhaps white women don't pursue math at the highest levels because they simply don't want to, compared with other uses for their time. Is this a bad outcome? Within the scientific enterprise it's a very slippery slope to start asserting value judgments about these things.

  74. Re:Still amazed at the choices in the US high scho by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

    I see most kids get home at 2 or 3 in the afternoon

    That would be because they got to school at 7 AM.

  75. TFA Refutes Your Statistics by ancarett · · Score: 1

    And someone who took stats to a graduate level and read TFA will respond with this quotation from TFA:

    Mertz and Hyde looked for evidence of this imbalance - more boys than girls at the extremes of math ability - in international data, too. Again, they found that in some countries as many girls as boys score above the 99th percentile, and in others more girls than boys are extreme math dunces or math geniuses. In both cases, countries with as many or more girls at the upper extreme tend to be those with the greatest gender equality, such as Germany and the Netherlands.

    Furthermore, in T(Actual)FA about which TFA reports, I read the following:

    Notable is the fact that numerous countries had a normalized SD difference that was insignificantly different from zero, with 3 even having a negative value, that is, greater female variability. (Hyde and Mertz, PNAS June 2, 2009 vol. 106 no. 22, 8803)

    In other words, statistical measurement shows that what you're seeing in the performance differences between men and women in mathematics are not innate differences but culturally-mediated differences. Same goes for the ability in language, verbal expression or other acquired skills, I would argue. Women aren't innately better communicators or writers. We're just kind of herded that way, as a group. Young women are, from very early on, acculturated to those skill sets seen as appropriately feminine. Young men are supported to learn and behave in ways that are considered appropriately manly. This socialization begins very early and extends quite a ways into the life-cycle.

    --
    ancarett, historian and zombie gamer
    1. Re:TFA Refutes Your Statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In other words, statistical measurement shows that what you're seeing in the performance differences between men and women in mathematics are not innate differences but culturally-mediated differences.

      It's a nice theory, but it just doesn't pass the common sense test. For instance, parents of autistic kids are relieved if their next is a girl, because that means far less likelihood of being autistic. Or color blindness for instance. It just defies believe that not having a backup X chromosome expresses itself in so many ways, but magically has zero effect on something as fantastically complicated as one's mind.

      Young women are, from very early on, acculturated to those skill sets seen as appropriately feminine. Young men are supported to learn and behave in ways that are considered appropriately manly. This socialization begins very early and extends quite a ways into the life-cycle.

      ... except that it happens the same way in every mammal.

  76. Reads like a political treatise, not science by Torodung · · Score: 1

    I am the father of two girls. Just wanted to make that very clear. I think one of them is quite brilliant with mathematics, in fact, and she routinely outperforms her male peers. Top of her class.

    Be that as it may, we appear to have one study here, and the rating on "gender equality" by the WEF, to which it is correlated, is a politically derived statistic at best, absolute chauvinist political posturing at worst.

    What this indicates is we need to have many many more studies, until we can see repeatable results or a pattern, based on hard statistics, not political ones, before we start calling some very intelligent people who work in the field, most with an excellent grasp of statistics, perpetuators of "myth" and "stereotype."

    And anecdotal stuff about who gets sent to the Math Olympiad doesn't imply they performed well at the math Olympiad, or that they belonged there. It implies that the countries were more willing to send women. Period.

    Did they do well? That's the real question, the only question which addresses aptitude, and it is not answered.

    I want to believe in gender equality as much as anyone else, perhaps more, but this article is shot through with correlative holes and shoddy thinking. It is bad science and political spin.

    I am fully willing to believe that this is because mainstream journalism cannot competently cover science. Is there a more scientifically minded article covering this paper?

    --
    Toro

  77. Higher Education & Gov'ts Are! by ancarett · · Score: 2, Informative

    Some colleges and universities are preferentially offering more admission spots to male candidates than otherwise they would. Why? In order to redress the gender imbalance that's seeing fewer men than women enroll. (See this article from 2007 in US News & World Report.)

    Last month also saw the 2nd Conference on College Men which also dealt with some of these concerns.

    As an academic and someone who advocates wide access to all sorts of education, I want to see everyone have a chance to study for what they want to and can manage, men and women.

    --
    ancarett, historian and zombie gamer
  78. Pregnancy Statistic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    100% of pregnancies are going to women, 0% to men.
    Scientists confused.

  79. Change from the 1950's? by RobinEggs · · Score: 1

    ...70% of mathematics Ph.D.s going to men; however that figure is down from 95% in the 1950s.

    Nevermind that 95% of *all* PhD's went to men in the 1950s. This statistic might be useful about women and education in general, but it's completely misleading and pointless with regard to math.

  80. Um... what? by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How is it, then, that women find themselves the victim of "social gender roles?" Men, I think, in a very real sense, do not make society. Women do. Women raise kids and instill values in them men's behavior is almost entirely based on doing things that will score and keep women.

    Have you considered the possibility that children actually don't acquire their values exclusively from their mothers? But rather, acquire them from their interaction with the culture at large? Have you considered the possibility that, just for example, schools are sites of sustainable transmission of values between the children themselves? So that kids end up learning a very large chunk of their values from peers and kids slightly above their grade.

    And what about the constant portrayal of gender roles in the media? Are you also absolutely convinced that that has no part to play? Or, also, what about the fact that until relatively recently in our culture, licit sexual access to women was negotiated between the suitor and the woman's father? Are you absolutely sure that our culture contains no residues of that? Like, for example, are you sure that men's behavior toward women is always truly aimed at gaining the women's favor as an end in itself, and never as, say, a means towards winning an imagined competition between men?

    You've considered all of this and more, and correctly discarded all of it, right?

    1. Re:Um... what? by babble123 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Have you considered the possibility that children actually don't acquire their values exclusively from their mothers? But rather, acquire them from their interaction with the culture at large? Have you considered the possibility that, just for example, schools are sites of sustainable transmission of values between the children themselves? So that kids end up learning a very large chunk of their values from peers and kids slightly above their grade.

      This is the central argument of an excellent book called The Nurture Assumption by Judith Rich Harris.

    2. Re:Um... what? by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

      This is the central argument of an excellent book called The Nurture Assumption by Judith Rich Harris.

      No, not quite. Harris is arguing that parents have little influence over their children. I was just challenging what I see as an implicit assumption in the post I was responding to, that mothers have near-exclusive influence over their children's values.

  81. What This Doesn't Say by logicnazi · · Score: 1

    Is that in those countries girls generally outperform boys in school. Yes, boys and girls seem to do just as well in math but girls substantially outperform boys on the reading/linguistic tests. Moreover, the difference between girls math and language scores seems to be fairly similar across all these countries.

    I wouldn't read too much into this but if anything this is evidence for a biological difference in terms of math ability. Either you think that girls are simply innately better at academics in general or you think some other factor explains the generally superior performance of women in school in these tests. If so one would want to subtract out that effect (say maybe girls care more about achieving in school than boys) before trying to estimate any innate differences.

    Frankly what nearly everyone says in this debate is stupid for several reasons:

    • It's totally irrelevant what the statistical distribution of talent is between the genders. What matters is whether someone is getting unfairly screwed over.
    • Even if one thinks that girls are statistically less good at math one can't infer that being female should cause one to think they are any worse at math. How conditioning on gender should affect one's beliefs about ability depends on very subtle questions about the shapes of the distributions and one's prior knowledge.
    • The idea that somehow there is this sharp distinction between innate talent and socialization is flat out idiotic. There are all sorts of complicated effects based on one gender's different preferences (even say in just dating) affecting what kind of things they feel are worth pursuing. Likely these kinds of effects outweigh any issues with innate ability to rotate objects or the like.

    However, it really pisses me off when I see people try to misrepresent the (still fairly hazy) data as obviously implying a position that they wish were true.

    --

    If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

  82. PNAS != open source by nbauman · · Score: 1
    The literature on this question is full of politically-motivated BS, so I want to read the original article.

    But when I looked up the article on PNAS http://www.pnas.org/content/106/22/8801.abstract it was subscription only.

    When I read the Science magazine article on girls and math, buried in the fine print they admitted that they didn't really have statistically significant data for high-performing girls.

    So I won't take this seriously until I can read the original article.

  83. Re:Still amazed at the choices in the US high scho by guruevi · · Score: 1

    Reducing fat intake will lead to a decrease in obesity. When parents give their kids fatty cheese or hot dogs or hamburgers with ketchup and mayonnaise as a snack something is wrong. Maybe more parents would become aware of the kids and their own obesity and do something about it (you know, like parenting). Right now there is just about enough activity for those youngsters to become slightly obese but not morbidly (there are exceptions) just enough that it's something to watch out for but not something to worry about.

    Do you really think that in Europe, China, India, ... all those kids are fatty's? I think that only Americans are so much into sports yet so obese. Heck, I only had 2 hours of gym per week in my days but nobody in my class was ever obese nor am I now.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  84. Re:Still amazed at the choices in the US high scho by guruevi · · Score: 2, Informative

    So did we. In most countries, schooling is a full time (36 to 40h/week) activity. So worried about your kids when you have to go to work that you need to bring them by car: drop them off and they'll hang out in a study hall where they can work on whatever they need to work on.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  85. Affirmative Action's contribution? by mi · · Score: 1

    Sexism will take no less time and will most likely take more because it is deeper ingrained

    You seem to agree with article's premise, that the rising percentage of women in science is simply due to the diminishment of sexism. What if it is (at least partially) explained by the Affirmative Action instead?

    Colleges do seek out female applicants for science majors — that's a very well known fact. So much so, female applicants are advised to specify Math major in their applications to improve their chances, whatever their actual interest — it is easy to switch major once you are in... Other things being equal, a girl will be admitted to Science program over a boy. I'm not saying here, whether that's good or bad in my opinion — only that it does affect the statistics.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Affirmative Action's contribution? by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      More than that. Thirty years ago the ratio of men to women entering 1st year university was 60/40. This was a source of outrage and of public calls for making the educational system more "girl friendly" and ending the "obvious" systemic sexism in the educational system. By ten years ago it was reversed to 40/60. But nobody complains that sexism is afoot, that the system needs to be made more "boy friendly"; in fact on the rare occasions that the issue is raised in the mainstream media usually boys are somehow blamed. At least that's the way it has been in Canada. And we still here calls to make the educational system do more for girls/women.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
  86. Re:Of course by fractoid · · Score: 1

    Wow - some of those figures are very interesting. In 1998, there were 3.6 million white male students, and 500 thousand black male students. In 2006 when the study ends, there are around 4 million white male students and 650 thousand black male students. So a small, roughly proportionate growth in both, although white males are definitely more likely to receive a university education. Likewise for white females, who went from 4.6 million in 1998 to 5.2 million in 2006. So far, ratios are staying pretty constant.

    Where it gets interesting is that black female enrolments rose from 850 thousand in 1998 up to 1.1 million in 2006 - a 30% increase in enrolments compared to around 12% for the other race/gender combos. Statistically, black women are well ahead of everyone else in terms of improvement in education.

    --
    Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
  87. it's about lifestyles not brain-styles by beth_tk · · Score: 1

    As an ex-mathematician, I can say there's a lot more to having a successful mathematics career than simply how your brain is wired. It is far more of a lifestyle choice than simply a job. If you want to solve the hardest problems your best hope is to have long stretches of peace and quiet where you can do nothing but devote yourself to the problem. Also there is the long hours culture, the regular conferences without available childcare, the amount of collaborative work done in the pub, the way everything has moved on completely if you have a few years out, having to move anywhere in the world to get the next job... None of that fits with family responsibilities. Some still manage to raise a family and make it as a mathematician but those are the exceptional ones who've made it through despite the handicap. Most women either don't go into it in the first place or else quit after their PhD's to settle down.

  88. taking maths class != being good at maths by Bromskloss · · Score: 1

    as many girls as boys now taking high school calculus

    This particular observation doesn't really tell us much about the respective abilities of the groups, does it?

    --
    Swedish plasma phys. PhD student; MSc EE; knows maths, programming, electronics; finance interest; seeks opportunities
  89. I don't know which sex is more able by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't know which sex as a whole is better at maths but I do know that there are many people in each group who are promoting the idea that their group is best and highlighting reasons why their own group might not have faired so well, either in recent years or in the past.

    It is impossible to have a sensible discussion on this subject while most of the people involved have an agenda.

    It does seem so unlikely to me that two groups of people with such obvious outward differences overall should possess exactly equal average ability.

    I have heard it said that boys tend to thrive in an environment where there is more discipline and competition, less coursework and less collaboration and so on.

    Unfortunately we are unlikely to be able to conduct an experiment to establish the truth about this once and for all.

  90. Innate != workforce distribution by noidentity · · Score: 1

    The summary seems to confuse innate differences with the gender distribution in the workforce. If the two were directly related, then a change in the workforce would mean a change in innate skills, which are pretty unlikely to have changed that drastically in the past 100 years.

    If the argument used to be that the low number of women in math wasn't proof that women were poor at math, then the greater number of women in math now is likewise not proof that women are good at math; the number of women in math is much more strongly influenced by other factors besides innate ability.

  91. Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I, for one, welcome our new math-knowledgeable overpersons.

  92. That is only true during "Peace" time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Peace time" recruits are not famous for academic ability, but "Peace Time" and small colonial wars (including every war the West has been involved in since 1945) do not significantly change the gene pool. The major wars (WW1, WW2) were very different; here in the UK most men were called up to fight except those who failed the medical. Every man in my own rather intelligent family fought in WW2 (and some were killed) except a grandfather who was only 5' 0" tall and who went on to have 7 children.

  93. Welcome to slashdot by entgod · · Score: 1

    You must be new around here.

  94. Equal opportunity or equal results by khchung · · Score: 1

    I'm all for equality in opportunity. ... But I think it's naive to think that, different as men and women are, that all careers will equalize out to a 50/50 distribution over time.

    One eloquent way to put it I have heard in a debate about affirmative action:

    "Do you want equal opportunity? Or equal results?"

    --
    Oliver.
  95. That's obtuse by bebemochi · · Score: 1

    You're ignoring the fact that women were actively, wilfully, consistently kept out of higher academics and especially from publishing -- even fiction -- until quite recent history. How are there supposed to be women equivalents if women couldn't even study beyond high school, were laughed at if they wanted to publish anything (unless they used a male pseudonym and had a male friend present it) and were being pushed to get married and have babies ASAP? (Keep in mind there was no birth control, so they'd have several, with the attendant responsibilities. Oh and, their husbands weren't expected to help them beyond finances.)

  96. Already? by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

    I wonder if they could already be indoctrinated by the time they're six or so.

    BTW, I've heard a saying of some Girl Scout troops, "too much doily-making and not enough camping" (the way that statement was given, and common sense, implies that there are some out there that aren't, just sayin'.)

    --
    I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    1. Re:Already? by Angeliqe · · Score: 1

      That was my point. Television/media influence and peer pressure starts early. By the time they get old enough to make decisions as to education in higher math or doing beauty pageants, they are highly biased. That could be a contributing factor for the low number of girls in complex math classes such as Calculus in college. I believe it is a more likely reason than females have to study harder to do well in those classes than males do. I for one, don't find that I have to study harder. Calculus was fairly easy for me. I am not talking about barely passing with a C after the curve. I'm talking about making A's and not even paying attention in class. I learn better by reading the book on my own and working out a few problems. I've never had to have a professor explain something to me. I went to a group study session once and ended up being the one explaining things to the guys. I am not only able to understand it well enough to do well on a test, but enough to also be able to explain it to someone else who does not understand.

  97. curriculum changes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Britain the tests have changed so that you get more partial credit instead of exact answer only and this favors women and disadvantages men.

    Perhaps the same thing has happened here.

  98. Biased mods - not a troll by FooRat · · Score: 1

    How was that a troll? Guess a moderator with an agenda didn't like me pointing out facts!

  99. There is evidence of some differences by WeirdJohn · · Score: 1

    This has been an ongoing debate in education for years. The only area where there does seem to be a real significant gender difference is in the ability to visualise 3D spatial relationships, and there is a reasonable explanation from evolutionary biology, in that this skill does seem to assist in hunting large mammals, and a better hunter would have been a more desirable mate. The effect (if it does exist) is not huge though. There seem to be as many studies showing the effect does not exist as that say it does, so the source isn't breaking any new ground.

  100. Why!?!?! by JAlexoi · · Score: 1

    Really? Why would anyone think that the abilities to do math are gender related?
    Biology plays this little trick om women, it's called giving birth. The only innate thing, that is 100%, is the maternal instinct that will definitely leave a woman out of a chance to pursue a degree, in a not so easy field as mathematics.
    The last 50 years have brought more possibilities to women to have baby(-ies) and pursue an academic career.

  101. You are being more obtuse by turing_m · · Score: 1

    If the whole supposed male power structure is responsible for holding a supposed equal or greater number of female mathematical geniuses down, then it should be relatively easy to show with actual examples in a country such as the United States in the last 50 or so years, where these barriers are no longer in place. Or you could accept the more rational explanation, that the higher variance in IQ in the male means that you have more genius males and more dullard males. Of course, you will have a few genius females. There are going to be exceptions, and humanity is better off for their contribution.

    Then you will get into subjective issues as to who is the greater mathematician and how do you judge this. Of course, you can look at similar intellectual endeavours (e.g. Chess) that are absolutely objective and have no barriers to entry for females. At extreme levels of skill, chess is dominated by males, as is the upper echelons of all cognitive endeavours that I can think of.

    --
    If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
  102. What about driving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, if there is a study on this I wonder if there is a study to compare driving between the genders

  103. Ok, seems the studies author is dubious...... by Teriblows · · Score: 1

    seems she was previous debunked, and is back for another swipe with dodgy data. http://www.geoffreyfalk.com/blog/June2009.asp#5 http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/math.htm http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/math2.htm the top 1% of students in general esp at a high school level are not what matters when it comes to mathematical genius anyways. its ridiculous to draw conclusions from that. and if asian/colored women outperform their men then they should continue to do so when it gets to the phd level/awards right? probably not addressed. i think what matters with these studies is they are published and get a headline, thats all that really matters, very few of the gender warriors that like your conclusions are going to check your work.

  104. males must be discriminated against in reading/wri by Teriblows · · Score: 1

    http://www.uaf.edu/northern/schools/myth.html it is amusing the language/reading gap that favors women is just accepted, when under the same viewpoint it should mean that boys are horribly discriminated against when it comes to that aspect of education!! look at the gpas, women outperform men in many areas other than mathematics. are we to conclude that men are being highly discriminated against as well? that is the logical conclusion from such thinking. "Grades: That females receive higher grades in virtually every subject is undisputed. In reviewing the literature on gender differences in cognitive tests, for the flagship journal of the field, American Psychologist, Halpern (1997, p. 1102) points out that "higher grades in school, all or most subjects" is an area of unquestioned female advantage. Another recent, comprehensive review of the research literature on gender differences in school performance comes to the same conclusion: Data from a wide variety of sources and educational settings show that females in all ethnic groups tend to earn higher grades in school than do males, across different ages and eras, and across different subject matter disciplines. Many researchers in past times and today consider this to be such an obvious fact that they treat it as axiomatic....Modern reviews of the subject are unanimous in their finding of higher grades for females (Dwyer & Johnson, 1997, pp. 128-129)." "Class Rank and Honors: Since girls receive higher grades in school, they should also surpass boys in class rank. This is exactly what happens. Examining gender differences in high school class rank and honors in a nationally representative sample from the 1970s, Adelman (1991, p. 3) makes this point, "No matter how one slices the high school class of 1972, women's mean class rank exceeded that of men by a minimum of 10 points." Caucasian women attained, on the average, the highest class rank (67th percentile), while African-American men attained, on the average the lowest class rank (44th percentile). African-American women ranked far higher (56th percentile) than African-American men. The same pattern of female advantage in grades and honors shows up in the 1990s, in a nationally representative longitudinal study of the high school class of 1992 (NELS Second Follow-up, cited in Dwyer & Johnson, 1997, p. 139). In the academic arena, high school girls outdistanced boys in making the honor roll, in getting elected to a class office, and in receiving writing awards and other academic honors. In the academic arena, boys outdistanced women in vocational-technical honors and in awards in science and mathematics competitions. While males are still ahead in gaining mathematics and science honors, females are making strong gains. From 1995-1998, close to 40 percent of the winners of the most prestigious science competition, the Westinghouse Science Talent Search, were female (Science Service, 1998). The Westinghouse Science Talent Search requires high school students to complete a project in science, mathematics, and engineering and submit a report communicating the results. The work goes on over many months, often with the assistance of a parent, teacher, or other researcher. The contest is notable for producing winners who later go on to win a Nobel Prize. Westinghouse finalists from the 1940s through the 1970s were overwhelmingly male. The number of females among the top 40 finalists has increased since the 1980s and is approaching parity (Table 2)." all this hand wringing over women is clearly missing the real problem eh?

  105. bias is against men by Teriblows · · Score: 1

    more proof the bias in education is against men. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/8085011.stm Female students are ahead of men in almost every measure of UK university achievement, according to a report from higher education researchers.