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Senator Applauds Pirate Bay Trial, Chides Canada
eldavojohn writes "Republican Senator Orrin Hatch spoke Tuesday at the World Copyright Summit in Washington DC and hailed the Pirate Bay guilty verdict as an important victory. He expressed severe disappointment in Canada for showing up on our watch list for piracy next to China and Russia. Senator Hatch also said, 'In fact, one study reports that each year, copyright piracy from motion pictures, sound recordings, business and entertainment software, and video games costs the US economy $58 billion in total output, costs American workers 373,375 jobs and $16.3 billion in earnings, and costs federal, state, and local governments $2.6 billion in tax revenue. During this time of economic turmoil, we must ensure that all copyrighted works, both here and abroad, are protected from online theft and traditional physical piracy. After all, US copyright-based industries continue to be one of America's largest and fastest-growing economic sectors.' GamePolitics notes that for his 2006 campaign, Hatch was rented for $7,000 by the RIAA and also got on his knees for $12,640 from the MPAA."
start defending this idiot.
He seems to forget that some people can afford those things for reasons beyond their control, or they're so over-priced anyways that people wouldn't normally buy them. Bottom line, without pirating they'd be lucky to be making a quarter of that amount.
"Our goal each year should be to increase the number of goals we set for ourselves!"
If someone download a movie, game or song doesn't mean they would have paid for it if they couldn't. So those loss calculations are wrong
I can't believe he admitted it. "After all, US copyright-based industries continue to be one of America's largest and fastest-growing economic sectors."
Next thing you know he'll say, "And if they won't buy our opium, we will sail our ironclads right into their harbours and open up their markets, whether they like it or not."
Lets face it,
If as a society you are pissing off a modern US Republican, you have to be doing something right.
That's an incredible saving. That money can be used to fix broken windows everywhere.
How dare you give your citizens freedom.
Where exactly did he get his numbers? I wonder?
Common Sense isn't as Common as people think...
"Orrin Hatch (R-UT) once again was charming,
informed, thoughtful and inspiring in his speech."
Who's a good doggy? Who's a good doggy?
You are aren't you! Have some kibble.
I'm sure glad that he is a senator then. I would love to see how he would feel if he was convicted in a trial and it turned out that the Judge was a high ranking member of the puppeteers of the prosecutor. Talk about trying to stack the deck. I know lets make sure the Judge is on our side and already believes us, that will make it much easier to make sure the outcome is the one we want.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
Is that like the "15 pounds of pot found!" busts where the dude had one puny 10cm plant that happened to be in a 15 pound planter.
I suppose it would be a waste of time to explain to this genius that the "problem" of file sharing in Canada is largely a myth and has been discredited.
If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
Hey, Orrin. Just an FYI - those numbers have been proven wrong, on numerous occasions by numerous sources. And not wrong in the "close but not quite accurate" sense - wrong as in "so far off from any vague hint of accuracy as to be laughable." You keep quoting numbers that are being fed to you by the MPAA and RIAA and they're making you look stupid. You might want to have one of your staff members do a smidge of research so you don't look quite so idiotic. Oh, and when you spout off these incorrect numbers, it weakens any other point you may have by association. But, hey, you enjoy that new deck that the RIAA/MPAA donation allowed you to add to your country home.
Now what do you suppose the people that downloaded movies/music did with that money?
They couldn't possibly have spent that money elsewhere (most likely on a new HDD =)
The Right whines and makes up numbers as scare tactics, and the Holy Left appoints the RIAA's attack dogs to run the justice department.
I'm thinking it's time to move to Canada.
Wait, I thought there was a special tax in Canada on blank media that the government just handed over to the RIAA-equivalent.
Orrin Hatch reminds of putrid old snatch. (C) 2009 all rights reserved
Hope is the currency of fools
cost the economy $58 billion or allowed those $58 billion to be introduced into the ocal economy rather than going straight into madonna's offshore account?
Some things the Senator needs to understand:
1/ Other countries are INDEPENDENT and the United States has no authority to dictate to them.
2/ Industry funded studies designed to "prove" their viewpoint cannot be trusted.
3/ Copyright under the U.S. Constitution was not intended to be eternal. It was supposed to be for a limited time and I suspect that "limited" was meant in compared to the human life span not compared to eternity.
3/ The DMCA is bad law and should be repealed rather than encouraging others to implement the same
It is estimated that the US printing industry lost Eleventy Billion Dollars in book sales last year from all those freeloading bastards reading at their local public library, which also contributed to heavy losses in the paper manufacturing industry....
Slavery is the legal fiction that a person is property; A Corporation is the legal fiction that property is a person.
This has been thoroughly debunked by Professor Michael Geist a law professor at the University of Ottawa where he hold the Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law.
Yes, I live in Utah.
Yes, I am Mormon.
Yes, I really dislike Orin Hatch.
No Democrats agree with Hatch here. Right?
...oh, wait. This Orrin Hatch, who.voted for the DMCA along with the rest of the Gopasaurs. Both parties suck on IP issues.
Okay, maybe I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, but if Americans aren't spending money on mp3s and downloaded movies, aren't they instead spending that money elsewhere? We have one of the lowest savings rates in the world, so it's not like the money is disappearing into our savings accounts. Therefore, downloading content on the internet should theoretically cost the economy $0 and $0 jobs, or at least considerably less than the figures quoted in the article, and instead create new jobs in other sectors rather than lining the pockets of movie execs. Then again, this whole philosophy is moot if nobodyâ(TM)s following the Pirates Code of Honor and buying content that is actually good.
But then I realized the cable was blue, so I only gave it one star. I hate blue.
I have my doubts that 373,375 Americans are engaged in full time piracy. I have bigger doubts that Sen. Hatch has statisticians capable of producing a figure of jobs lost to piracy accurate to six significant figures.
0 = 1 + e^(Alt something)
I'll note only that the $16.3 Billion in lost wages is just the payroll portion of the $58 Billion (about 30%), and that the jobs shown are the payroll divided by the average salary in the industry - about $43,500 according to the latest economic census numbers I can find. I can't imagine that 373,375 people have actually lost their jobs because someone downloaded Wolverine. Does that industry even have that many jobs in the US, since so many productions go to Vancouver?
Never underestimate the potential of Human stupidity. -Heinlein
58 Billion! We need a RIAA Bailout quick, or the economy is really doomed!
The crux of the problem with "the pirate bay convictions" is that they aren't being properly tried under local law. The fact that they had their stuff seized and then returned to them should have been indication enough that the problem isn't with the pirate bay's activities, but with the local laws. Their present conviction is quite wrongful.
Hatch rather reminds me of my ex-wife who believed that anything that made her angry must be against the law and so was inclined to call the police to resolve it. Hatch, of course, is one of the bought and paid for politicians and I simply can't believe anyone is taking him seriously any more... well okay, I can believe it simply because the general masses still don't get what is wrong with current copyright law and process... and definitely don't get that different countries have different ideals and standards of law.
I would have been an interesting turn of things if the U.S.S.R. was able to peddle its influence to have other nations change their laws the way the U.S. does. And outside of the U.S. I am fairly certain that the practice is both unappreciated and unwelcome. It is probably one of the larger reasons the U.S. is presently disliked in the world.
...but it's a drop in the bucket in a senate election. So while I am just as annoyed at Senator Hatch as the next geek, I think accusing him of being bought is probably tactically stupid. First, because it's probably not true. Second, because there's probably another reason he holds this particular position. And third, because he probably actually believes what he's saying.
There are two ways to get him to stop being such a powerful advocate for copyright interests. One is to get him replaced. The other is to get him to change his mind. Getting him replaced is going to be really, really hard. But by all means, go for it. Only I really doubt the average Utahn is going to vote him out on the basis of his position on copyright, even if they disagree with him. So that's a really big job.
The other possibility is that you could get him to come around to seeing how much economic damage the RIAA and MPAA positions are doing to our economy. I think that's pretty hard too. But maybe not impossible. But one thing that is impossible is that you will get him to even listen to you if you start talking about how he's blowing the MPAA to get campaign contributions. The electoral system works the way it works. I want it to change as much as you do. But it's not going to change because you make nasty accusations. It's going to change because you work for it, or not at all.
If someone is losing money, it is not because someone else is stealing it. It is because the product is not competitive. If an album is not selling, it is not because of piracy, it is because it is not competitive. Either enough money has not been spent on marketing, or it is priced too high, or it is too hard to get. How many of us pay more to get milk from the corner store. How many of us would pay that same high price at the big grocery stores. Recorded music still has value, just not the value it did. I am sure Mr. Hatch is confused to why a audio tape manufacturers are not making as much as they did, and probably wanted to a bailout to help them. Under his logic, I could build a fishing pole, sell it for a while, then make it more expensive or reduce the quality, then claim that pirates have stolen my design and I need the feds help.
Although economics is not a zero sum game, one person does sometimes get rich at the expense of another, or at least that is the perception. The music industry is currently in an uproar that it cannot extort more money from the radio stations. Sure the music industry provides the raw materials, but it is the radio station that adds value. What I would like to see an end to compulsory licensing. They could use a bid based system, you know, we will play you album on the station only if you charge this much and no more. Oh, you want the money you used to get, won't happen. Not in a capitalist market.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
As ever, the media companies are deploying insupportable statistics. Most of the numbers for 'lost revenue' are coming form multiplying 'estimates' for the number of files shared by the recommended retail price of the shared item, which makes the huge leap of believing that every single download that the RIAA thinks happened represents a lost sale that otherwise would have taken place. This assumption is not only naive but studies have shown that people who download music for free also buy more music. In the UK the government is basing policies on similarly erroneous information bought and paid for by the media companies. In that particular case the 'academic study' got it's numbers for lost revenue from an industry press release...
If intelligent life is too complex to evolve on its own, who designed God?
Orrin Hatch has taken over $96,000 From the TV/Movies/Music lobby already.
Just a snippet from the blog cited above...
I bet it was the free Metallica tickets for life. Hatch rules the mosh pit.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I'd love to understand their algorithm for determining that 373,375 American jobs are affected by this.
...so this is even more pathetic. But then this is the same Hatch that helped block 60 of Clintons judicial nominees, only to have his party threaten to blow up the Senate if the Democrats didn't give an "upordown" vote for all of Bushs nominees. Now of course that a Dem is back in the White House, the GOP is threatening to filibuster Obamas picks before he's even made them.
We've lost 1 million jobs each month due to our corporate and government corruption (same damn thing if you ask me).
We cant be a nation of film makers and muscians. Its not going to float this sinking economy. The real problem is greed, corruption, outsourcing, our law makers bending over backwards for those that would sell out America at every opportunity.
Downloading a shitty movie here and there that still makes 200 million in profit, is not costing us that much.
There are far bigger problems, and i find it hysterical that Oren Hatch (who is part of the problem) is acting as if some how the pirate bay is more significant than health care or the economy.
Perhaps more people are pirating stuff because they can no longer afford to LIVE in the country Oren Hatch supposedly represents. Thanks Oren you fucking tool.
Every one of these politicians live like kings in these "tough economic times"
Give me a break. Fuck off and DO SOMETHING FOR THE PEOPLE FOR ONCE!!!!!!
You're absolutely right that it doesn't mean they would have paid for it. A lot of pirates might not even be able to pay for it. However, the availability of piracy as an option skews the whole thing wildly. We don't know what people would do if piracy weren't an option. It very well might be possible that the sales of games and movies might be significantly higher. Again, we won't know because people can just copy anything they don't feel like buying or budgeting for.
Publish more bullshit in the hope that it sticks just because Canada doesn't rubber stamp the changes US media giants want to existing Canadian legislation... Just F-OFF and while your at it find another supplier of energy for the US, Canada is your #1 supplier. Find someone else to fight in Afghanistan, Canada has been there willingly and very fucking effectively since day one. Even after your trigger happy fucking cowboy pilots dropped bombs on Canadian troops on exercises in a clearly marked and advertised training area... Hatch please just fuck off. Sorry for the rant folks.
Good god. #1 The banks and investment firms that didn't get involved in the mortgage backed securities nonsense are doing JUST FINE. And it appears that the real problem is the phony money that is being made in the markets. If the U.S. had the same strong manufacturing base that we once had, we would not be nearly as affected as we have been. All of our manufacturing is sent overseas and now our value is is based on how much money we move around. And when the markets crash, the value of our money crashes right along with it. So then what do we have to rebuild with? Not much. That's why we are seeing cars of all types being sold at 50% or more off MSRP today.
And here's the kicker -- we know what the causes are and have been. Nothing has been done to prevent it from happening again. They want to prop things back up and get back to partying like it was 1999.
The good senator may have missed a few points about the Pirate Bay trial.
Firstly, the guilty verdict has been appealed. I don't think we are likely to see the Swedish Supreme Court pass sentence for a good many years yet. And before the Supreme Court hands out a sentence, I don't think you should consider the matter settled. In fact, even after the Swedish Supreme Court, the accused might appeal to the European court (I'm not sure they have the legal possibility, but they might, and if so I think they will take it).
Secondly, the judge is suspected of being biased, and because of this the trial might be declared invalid. The reason this suspicion has arisen is that the judge is a member of two organisations whose purpose it is to strengthen copyright and/or trademark (or similar) protection. Among the other members of at least one of these organisations are the legal representatives for the plaintiffs.
If the trial is declared void, it might be a few years before we get a sentence again.
From Prof. Michael Geist's blog BSA Admits Canadian Software Piracy Rates Estimated; Canada Viewed as Low Piracy Country, the following shows that these statistics are just made up...
A quick google search will land you at a link to http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_32/b4045001.htm That article, while talking about pets, states "Americans spend on the movies ($10.8 billion), playing video games ($11.6 billion), and listening to recorded music ($10.6 billion) combined"
So according to the RIAA and MPAA we spend 33 billion on movies, video games, and music combined but some how piracy is costing the American economy almost twice what it actually spent on that industry? I know they inflate numbers, but this is beyond hyperbole.
that stands for Bull Shit Alliance, right?
"Our goal each year should be to increase the number of goals we set for ourselves!"
If the USA takes to protecting imaginary property to strongly.
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/930731/posts
When I see a DVD screener of a movie that hasn't been released yet, exactly who is responsible? The industry. Obviously industry insiders are a bigger problem than these morons are willing to admit. Sure, point fingers at everyone else while your own people are stealing the revenue right out from under you.
This is a great piece about the Section 301 Report. Basically, this is pure political posturing because we haven't implemented the DMCA - the actual data about piracy and copyright violation does not lend any substance to Canada's placement on that watch list.
Stuff.
.... unchecked air-breathing by the earth's entire population costs governments trillions of dollars of lost revenue, billions of air-accounting jobs and millions of death by old age.
The free availability of air to anyone with the simple capability to just *SUCK IT IN* willy-nilly skews the whole thing wildly. We don't know what people would do if wanton free-for-all air-breathing weren't an option. It very well might be possible that the accounting and sale of air (by the gallons) would create huge revenues for government and private businesses. Again, we don't know because people can just... you know... inhale and exhale at will.
And vote this obvious shill for RIAA/MPAA out of office. His words speak volumes as to which pockets he's funded from.
Dear Senator Orrin Hatch,
Suck it
-Canada
GamePolitics notes that for his 2006 campaign, Hatch was rented for $7,000 by the RIAA and also got on his knees for $12,640 from the MPAA."
I think I speak for everyone when I ask "Did they film it?"
He expressed severe disappointment in Canada for showing up on our watch list for piracy next to China and Russia.
Canada is probably severely disappointed in the USA for the very same reason.
And the Chinese in themselves, also for the same reason.
During this time of economic turmoil, we must ensure that all copyrighted works, both here and abroad, are protected from online theft and traditional physical piracy.
(emphasis mine)
Wow... just wow.. when was the last time pirates looted ships for copyrighted works?!
I understand that piracy can make someone think they lost money (it is disputable, but there's at least a bit of truth to that claim). However, I have yet to meet a person that was fired (or a company that went down) because the company's product was pirated too much. Naturally I'm not counting cases where the person in question leaked the product herself.
Short .nfo:
cracked by Zedrick in his 34th year of glory. Greetings to all old friends in the Amigascene! Note: Copyright-info removed to fit release in one sentence.
"Orrin Hatch reminds of putrid old snatch."
Maybe we should just rename him Booby Hatch! This creep has been on the wrong side of almost every issue since the dawn of time. He is too old, too evil and just plain stupid so naturally he has some power.
I can't believe he admitted it. "After all, US copyright-based industries continue to be one of America's largest and fastest-growing economic sectors."
When it gets down to it - talking trade balances here - once we've brain-drained all our technology into other countries, once things have evened out, they're making cars in Bolivia and microwave ovens in Tadzhikistan and selling them here - once our edge in natural resources has been made irrelevant by giant Hong Kong ships and dirigibles that can ship North Dakota all the way to New Zealand for a nickel - once the Invisible Hand has taken away all those historical inequities and smeared them out into a broad global layer of what a Pakistani brickmaker would consider to be prosperity - y'know what? There's only four things we do better than anyone else:
- music
- movies
- microcode
- high-speed pizza delivery
Prisencolinensinainciusol. Ol Rait!
Mind your own fucking business and keep your cool-aid to yourself you obviously dirty and sorry excuse for a politician.
Canada
- Seems to be the new Land of the free and the home of the brave!!
Oh really?
Here are some thoughts about what the summary says:
After all, US copyright-based industries continue to be one of America's largest and fastest-growing economic sectors
Let's assume that if it's large, it's important. I guess that if something is important to you, the downfall of anything that opposes it is good. But even at the expense of sane legal systems in other countries? Maybe Orin Hatch should take a word from a party fellow, GWB, about ensuring democracy and Rule of Law in other countries ;-)
costs the US economy $58 billion in total output, costs American workers 373,375 jobs and $16.3 billion in earnings, and costs federal, state, and local governments $2.6 billion in tax revenue.
Let's see... the 16.3 billion dollars freed up by not having to be spent on music, I guess people just park them in their bank accounts---right? Or maybe people spend the money elsewhere, so that other people earn the same money (through jobs) and pay taxes off of them.
This seems awfully hard to measure. I'm sure those who came up with the numbers did their due diligence and did this hard measurement, so that the $16.3e9 figure is the difference between money saved on music and money spent on other stuff.
But I could be hopelessly naive ;-)
"...we must ensure that all copyrighted works, both here and abroad, are protected from online theft and traditional physical piracy."
Yar, mateys... hoist the sails and get the cannons ready. A cargo ship containing 50,000 copies of High School Musical 3 is due to cross our path in a half hours time.
It would be nice to see the difference of game sales of the same game between the PS3 and XBOX 360. I'm wondering if there is a correlation between the PS3 that can't be hacked for the moment, and the XBOX 360. Does it make a difference ?
So, if all file xfers/copies ended now, we would see $58 billion pumped into the US economy and 373,000 jobs created.
WOW.
I don't see how anyone would pirate files any more. ;->
I just decide that the breath I exhale should be my property, and therefore anyone using it after me should pay as much as I decide it's worth. There's just one catch.. First I must become the most powerful nation on earth, so I can force all other nations to see the fairness in this rule.
I'm sure the only reason Britain hasn't yet asked for royalties on the world wide use of the English language, is that they're not the most powerful nation.
--
Asking people to pay for something that is free to reproduce is something that will only work in a totalitarian regime. Go and find better business models, that's the only solution for the future.
Even looking at real losses (the person who would have baught the movie), certainly not all of those profits would go into hiring more people to do more work. In many cases, they represent better incomes for stock-holders and those who have residuals.
Also: It's not like the person who didn't spend $25 on that BluRay (likely manufacturered in China) is going to set the money on fire. He will spend it somewhere else.
Buying movies legitemately may cost jobs too.
It really disgusted me when Orrin Hatch called a Judicial Committee Hearing on BYU campus with Shawn Fanning right before his re-election when Napster was popular.
Basically he kissed Fannings butt to get college student votes and he used tax payer dollars to do it.
The guy is so slimy.
"...costs American workers 373,375 jobs and $16.3 billion in earnings, and costs federal, state, and local governments $2.6 billion in tax revenue."
"After all, US copyright-based industries continue to be one of America's largest and fastest-growing economic sectors."
So one of the fastest growing yet losing 373k jobs? ooooook...
I actually buy "one of the fastest growing..." part. The emergence of online content has been a massive boon to all content sellers whether they want to admit it or not.
The real reason he's yakking is: "...and costs federal, state, and local governments $2.6 billion in tax revenue.". You can't tax it if its free...interesting concept.
moving along...
" GamePolitics notes that for his 2006 campaign, Hatch was rented for $7,000 by the RIAA and also got on his knees for $12,640 from the MPAA." That's not a heck of lot of money for a campaign contribution coming from the filthy rich RI/MP AAs but I guess it still shows a conflict of interest, even if it is small.. I will state for the record that I do not condone piracy but I am in favor of a content model where consumers can get music and movies on demand a reduced price or for free in return for watching ads (hulu-esque). I find modern DRM distasteful as I buy all my movies and I can't make backups legally. -rilian
...quicker, easier, more seductive the darkside is...but more powerful, it is not.
You have 58 billion in total output (2 digits) costing American workers 373,375 jobs (6 digits), 16.3 billion in earnings (3 digits) and 2.6 billion in tax revenue (2 digits).
Already we find ourselves wondering what kind of math skills are involved, without looking at the bogus research behind them. 373,375 jobs ?!!?! Really? Not 373,374? Not 373,376? If that is true, then we have to assume there is a fairly detailed breakdown carrying 6 digits of accuracy down from the 58.0000 billion in total output (i.e. if you only have two digits to begin with, you don't get more later.... THAT means the starting figure has to have AT LEAST 6 digits, and more likely 9 or 10 to nail this down to such an exact job count).
So that makes us wonder what fraction of the 58 billion account for these 373,375. The trick is to look at the TAXES. We know because they told us that 2.6 billion is going to go to taxes. But that is only 4.4 percent of 58 billion! That is federal, state, and local taxes! And that HAS to be spot on if they are so accurate with the job count!
But they also claimed the 58 billion includes 16.3 billion in earnings. We gotta assume most of that accounts for the 2.6 billion in taxes. But that is only 15.9 percent of the earnings!?! I don't quite understand how they are keeping their tax rates so low, unless they are piping that money offshore. In which case, one has to wonder about that.
ANY way you slice these figures, not much income tax can be assumed, or that tax number would be MUCH bigger.
Now the only way I can figure cutting down the income tax is by assuming low paying jobs. So let's guess their analysis assumes 20K per year per job. That comes to about 7.4 billion.
That leaves 34.3 billion on the table. Where does that go? Expenses? But IF all that goes to expenses, doesn't that imply jobs created in addition to the 373,375 jobs quoted? A massive error perhaps?
The numbers just don't add up. And what kind of Senator would repeat them when they are so clearly junk?
Really, what Senator Hatch should do first is to take care of its own pirates like McColo, InterCage and alikes, who cost billions of dollars for millions of people all around the world. American Pirates who specially care to attack hundreds of thousands of russian sites stealing resources AND traffic with specialized trojans, semi-automatic robots and unique viruses.
Maybe russian taxpayers don't have billions of dolars to show Senator Hatch the cost of what american pirates do here. But I am pretty sure that many american citizens still can endure tens of billions of dolars, which does not happen to many russian citizens. Because for many of them, the cost of a high-tech McColo attack runs frequently from 1/3 to 5 times their monthly salaries. There are small companies here that went burned from something that originated in USA. Yes, playing absolute numbers is SOOOOOO COOOL. Watch the effects first, before crying wolf.
So many thanks for Senator Hatch to refer Canada, China and Russia as being in the top of US's Piracy watch-list. For us, it is YOU who are in the top!
Music, movies, and microcode. Every so often, I wonder what Mr. Stephenson drinks, and where I can get some.
If i pirate something to see if i like it, and then buy it because I do, do I count as a lost sale to them?
He made a speech at the 'World Copyright Forum' in favor of copyrights and anti-piracy.
A politician is invited to give a speech somewhere BECAUSE they expect him/her to provide the viewpoint they want.
Opening a bus station? Bet who ever shows up talks about public transportation.
A factory? Jobs
Aircraft Carrier? Defense
School? Education
I am NOT agreeing with or defending Mr. Hatch. I am simply pointing out that a politician is invited for a reason AND chooses to attend for a reason, and those two things rarely combine to create some incredible spark of reality.
-- I really need to bleed off some of this
Culturally Canadians and Americans are pretty much the same. Sure, we have two languages on our cerial boxes and real sugar in our soft drinks, and sure some of us like our french fries covered in cheese curds and gravey, but despite that there's not much difference between your average Canadian and your average American. So, considering that Canada has roughly one tenth of the population that the US has, there is a certain amount of justification to the age old heuristic for translating back and forth between Canadian statistics and American statistics: Multiply (or divide) By Ten.
So, having said that, whatever pirating numbers you may have for Canada, multiply them by ten and you'll get the pirating numbers for the US. In other words Piracy is TEN TIMES WORSE in the US than it is in Canada!!
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
the abhorrent failure of every American taxpayer to send me $10.00 costs the United States nearly 50,000 jobs per year. (Assuming that I would employ as many people as possible at $18,000 per year--well above the federal poverty level--and keep only $700 million or so for myself).
Let's stop this travesty immediately and put another 50,000 people to work. If you're a taxpayer, be sure to send me $10! Meanwhile, I really think that the courts and congress should look into this economic disaster!
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Prior to 2003, Orin Hatch was frequently heralded here on /. as a great defender of consumer rights because he was always bashing on Hilary Rosen.
Then suddenly when they replaced Rosen with Mitch Bainwol, Hatch changed his tune. Now he was the greatest champion of everything the RIAA asked for.
One only needs to look up the political affiliations of Rosen and Bainwol to understand why. :-)
I'm gonna copyright my ass (it's one of a kind) and charge the Music and Film industry 5 bucks to kiss it. I'm sick of paying for cd's that only have that one good single on it to find out the rest is crap. I want to sample it first.
Orrin Hatch is a brainwashed Moron who doesn't do any thinking for himself. Having met the man, I can testify that he has lost all ability to empathize. He sees everything in absolute terms of right and wrong. He thinks he has God on his side and so he will never make a misjudgement. The crazy bitch needs to be brought down!
That's a lot of gaffers and grips.
One has to wonder how it is that a Republican Party that complains so often about the media and the arts world should bend over backwards so much to defend them. Do we Republicans really think that Barbara Streisand is going to cry in love for us if suddenly we help her collect more royalties from the 1970s movies she made? I'd say, cut her off, and cut off copyrights.
This is my sig.
"In fact, one study reports that each year, copyright piracy from motion pictures, sound recordings, business and entertainment software, and video games costs the US economy $58 billion in total output, costs American workers 373,375 jobs and $16.3 billion in earnings, and costs federal, state, and local governments $2.6 billion in tax revenue"
From the US department of numbers-and-statistics-I-just-pulled-out-of-my-ass
Obviously people who make illegal copies of software, music, and other copyrighted works didn't spend money on them. So what did they spend the money on?
With Senators spouting that so called 'piracy' has cost X amount of money and taxes, one would assume this money unspent on these pirated items was hoarded. In reality this money is spent on other things. It's spent on foot or rent or cars. Durable goods. Things that can't be copied for (near) zero cost. One might almost assume that durable good manufacturers should be strongly against copyright, as it reduces the amount of money spent on their goods.
The logic that assumes people who pirate would spontaneously create the wealth required to purchase the items they pirate is one of the great fallacies of the anti-pirate side of the argument. Those "lost" tax dollars are actually collect when the person buys a bicycle or pack of Magic cards. No tax dollars are lost because the money was actually taxed on a different sale. The money could not be spent twice, and hence would not be taxed twice.
Logic this flawed only makes the argument against piracy flawed.
This, of course, says nothing about the fact that almost all copyright is an attempt to retrofit property rights on to information. Information is the result of a [i]service[/i]. The result is not property and should treated differently in legal terms.
... roughly 28 years ago, when joining the U.S. military, you were asked "Are you or have you been a member of the Communist Party?"
They should really change that, modernize it to ask:
"Are you or have you ever been a member of the Democrat or Republican Party?"
If so, sorry, but you could not possibly keep your oath as a member of the U.S. military to "protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic".
This crazy old man always siding with his benefactors!
First let's make one thing clear, applauding miscarriages of justice should be entirely discouraged of U.S. Senators.
We've already been made aware of the judge in TPB's trial was a member of the content industry's trade organization.
That's clearly a conflict of interest. It may even be illegal for the judge to have not recused himself.
So, Senator Hatch should really open his crusty old eyes and realize that what he's doing is hurting America and her people.
They're using their grammar skills there.
As a Canadian I find this all very amusing and scary at the same time.
It used to be that Canada felt threatened every time the U.S. offered criticism. We used to be proud to have the last "Superpower" next door. Things were pleasant.
Now we just watch the border turn into a wall as the U.S. becomes more and more protectionist. To top it off people are getting tired of their inward looking and self serving attitude. "If it's good for us, then we will ensure it is good for you". It's like watching a train wreck in slow motion.
Hatch is an idiot. The bad thing is thanks to the Repubs here in Utah, anyone that runs against Hatch is pretty much doomed. Orrin Hatch is a very good argument for term limits.
Computers are like Old Testament gods; lots of rules and no mercy.
If it's been said once, it's been said 1000 effing times.... Just because you don't get $30 on a download DOES NOT MAKE IT A COST.
It doesn't COST the industry a damn red cent.
And case in point - Most of my 450+ DVD collection is built out of videos I've bought after downloading the movie.
You're more at risk of my piracy if I wait for it to come to rental market before showing an interest.
in the free market.
It also requires that the government tell you what YOU can do with YOUR property.
Both of which were HUGE in Socialist Russia.
Oh, and to enforce it means you need to watch ALL the citizens.
Which was something Stalin had a boner for too.
Why do you think the Warsaw pact countries had Communist governments? Why do you think they dropped them as soon as they could see that the USSR could no longer enforce their will on their client states?
Not that this excuses the USA or Senator Hatch.
Orrin Hatch (R-Utah): Bitch of the RIAA and MPAA. Will do anything and everything for the highest bidder. We really need to get the Utah populace to eject this piece of "work" out of his current position and into an appropriate one; namely, giving unspeakable acts to random passers-by on the street for money. What would be the difference? Only that he wouldn't hurt as many people this way and his lust for money would be satiated.
To me, the biggest reason for downloading a game or a movie is to check it out before I spend money on a proper copy of it. It's not my fault that 90% of what I download is crap that flat out isn't worth the money.
Take Terminator 4 -- I couldn't even stomach watching the whole movie. I deleted it after the first 45 minutes.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Sorry, Us Canadians are just angry that since you Americans bought Tim Hortons you've been serving us microwaved from frozen donuts. Give us some real donuts and maybe we'll take our hands off your media!
and local governments $2.6 billion in tax revenue.
Glad to hear it, eh! It's amazing what you can do when you get internet in your igloo.
Guess what Hollywood? Even if I couldn't easily download your movies I would never buy them. They suck. Make something worth watching and maybe I'll bother seeing it in the theater. Or, you know, try making a movie that doesn't need millions of dollars of special effects to make up for the overwhelming lack of creativity.
...when I say: Orrin Hatch can go fuck himself.
A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
Well, according to some studies (conducted by me) Senator Hatch has cost Slashdotters an average of $3,141 per month in earnings and has led to 562 workers per week losing their jobs. I can't tell you my methodology, but it's the same as the entertainment industries. Here's a hint. It rhymes with: Bulled the Frumbers out of Vly Gear.
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
We don't care. We don't care that we're destroying jobs and profit margins.
We don't care that you label us pirates.
We don't care about your campaigns to label us criminals and thieves.
When the movie and music industry goes under, or the internet goes offline,
We will find other free forms of entertainment.
We don't care about you... you're just a passing fad, any distraction will do.
You are not entitled to our earnings.
"He expressed severe disappointment in Canada for showing up on our watch list for piracy next to China and Russia."
The same watch list that was quickly shown to be completely bogus with respect to the data used to put Canada on it? It's almost like the U.S. doesn't care whether its "watch list" looks like a bad piece of propaganda, because here he is referring to it even after it is shown to be wrong. And he demonstrated his ignorance in front of an international audience, no less. What a disappointing performance by Senator Hatch.
Oh well, at least it isn't as bad as mistakenly thinking that the 9/11 terrorists entered the U.S. from Canada, which is a myth that still pops up from time to time even among people who should know better (e.g., like John McCain and the current head of the U.S. Dept. of Homeland Security). I guess we should get used to being blamed.
What a bunch of crap stats. 373,375 jobs. Why not 375,373 job or 773,777 jobs? So is that the extra clerks they would hire to rent videos or mail out DVDs for netflix or answer support calls from legit downloaders or fill up more Redbox machines or package more DVD orders or collect more movie tickets or sell more popcorn? Total junk numbers. I'd have to guess most illegal downloaders are people that would never pay for the stuff to being with. On the other hand, you probably get some people who say that's a good CD or DVD, I'll buy it to support the band or maybe they say yeah I'll spend $100 to see the band or buy a ticket to see the movie on the big screen.
Personally, I buy zero CDs, zero DVDs and go to zero movies. If I can't get it from the library, listen to it on the radio or watch it on TV (or HBO) I don't see it or hear it. I will not spend another penny. So if I were to download $10 million worth of stuff in my lifetime that is not lost revenue because I would not have purchased it to begin with. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one thinking this way. I'd also guess that many that are paying for every premium TV channel out there is also the one that is likely to be downloading the movies as soon as they can on the internet because they can't wait. So are they ripping the biz off? No, because they are paying for every freakin' channel out there, they are just jumping the gun.
The model is broken. The people that create need to get paid for creating. The people that distribute and put up money for the creations need to get paid. Capitalism and a free market economy are essentially good things when there is decent oversight. So if you are proposing that there should be no copyright, and a great majority of the world's media is created and produced here in the US, then how do you propose the creators and producers get paid what they deserve - no more, no less - unless there are protections in place to keep their content from being freely distributed? I hear a lot of noise about how the RIAA and MPAA are evil and paranoidal (new word!) spellings of "Amerika" by immature ignoramuses, but haven't heard - or read- any real, viable alternatives for protecting the rights of the artists and the companies that represent them.
I pay $0.20 per blank CD in Canada to cover copyright infringement. Until that levy is gone I can legally download all I want. Don't label me a blasted pirate, ya lily livered sea dog!
I can almost guarantee Orrin Hatch had never heard of The Pirate Bay until his RIAA/MPAA overlords "suggested" he make a statement about it.
Better to be on that list than this one.
you had me at #!
And this is all complete bullshit that Mr. Hatch pulled out of his ass.
"373,375 workers lost their jobs and $16.3 billion in earnings", because some people make backup copies of their CD & DVD disks?
Come on now Mr. Hatch, I've heard you say some smart things on occasion, this isn't one of them.
"Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
The money lost is calculated using Republican maths. (whats it with Americans and thick people?) They lost how much? Using the same logic everyone who didnt buy a lotto ticket lost millions of dollars.
There was an interesting trade dispute that South Africa had with the European Union. The fact that South Africa made port and sold it as port and had been doing so since before the days of Napolean was contentious as the EU had decided that the word "port" was a piece of intellectual property owned by Portugal. SA had to change their naming to "fortified wine" if they wanted a trade agreement with the EU. Same goes for "champagne". In pretty much the whole world, "champagne" is recognised as a piece of intellectual property owned by the champagne region of France. The US does not abide by these rules and allows sparkling american wine to be labelled as champagne. Now I disagree with the back-dating of trademarks like "port" and "champagne" but I find it amusing that the US holds itself up as the world-wide champion of intellectual property and other countries should fall in line when that seems to only apply to US made products.
C'mon, waterboarding is a sport, not torture.
Anyway, I used to like Hatch, but I don't like Hatch's stance on any of this, he's really scraping the bottom of the barrel with his lies, damn lies, and statistics. If the economy lost 300,000 jobs and $16B, then where did it go? Nowhere you hack! People pay what they're willing to pay after they bought what was most important to them. Pirates don't buy software, music, and movies! Stop them from pirating, they still won't buy it.
The RIAA and MPIG needs to stop treating their customers like criminals and come to the realization that their sales go up when they make good products that entice people to crack open their wallets, not when they crack down on people and compel their wallets open. If anything has cost these trade groups and the industries they represent, it's the ill will of their potential customers. That in a nutshell is where the $16B and the 300,000 jobs went!
This is like GHWBush going to Japan and throwing up on the Prime Minister because the Japanese don't want our useless cars with the steering wheels on the wrong side. I can't even muster up a fake sob for these groups and it's shameful for Hatch to get sucked into their rhetoric for a crappy $7K rental feel.
Does he come from a state where marrying a close relative is mandatory?
I have seen statistics that reliably put the annual loss to to piracy at a figure closer to 47 kajillion dollars.
I am NOT a man!
I am a free number!
the one you bought by shelling out a few mil bucks from a gaudy 'think thank' ?
go f@ck off. lobbying and think thanking should be banned.
Read radical news here
It seams your senators are no better than Canada's own politician. As Michael Geist has explained repeatedly (and again today) http://www.michaelgeist.ca/. All this garbage about Canada being a haven of file sharing is based on very questionable 6 year old data.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAlADlTzDZ4
I'm Canadian. Sorry but US politicians lack any sort of basis to admonish any nation on any topic. If they're doing that, by definition they are worsening the terrible existing internal problems the US has, by expending their efforts elsewhere. If your Senators aren't focusing on fixing your nation for you, why don't you rip them out of their Senate seats and put someone there who represents you? Well yeah OK I guess if I were an American, I'd feel so bad that I would have to start pointing fingers too. The hell with Americans. You continually fail to not act like arrogant children.
PS. Hey almighty Senator, guess who you are in Canada? Just Orrin. Some Yank with no influence. And if I saw you I'd tell you to go back to your hellish plutarchy and stay there.
Congratulations on your divorce.
That kind of thinking is classic. I'm not a psychologist, but narcissistic personality disorder and sociopathy come to mind.
I'm pretty sure my mother is in one of those two categories. Doesn't seem to be dangerous, fortunately. But she can't seem to keep friends, because they notice and say something, and then they're "out to get her" when they suggest she may want to talk to someone.
On the other hand, complete disregard for others' right to live their lives as they see fit seems to be a pretty common syndrome of the American psyche. (Maybe the human psyche.) I should be happy about the degree to which we have detente among the various groups, as that's all that saves un-binnable freaks like me from being outlawed in the crossfire. (And many of my fellow harmless freaks are not so lucky, esp. the recreational pharmaceuticalists of most stripes.)
Canada, a population 1/10th that of the USA, with a less developed telecom sector, has set up industries to download and counterfeit music CDs. We then create Canadian Spellings for the labels, adding in the extra letter u, where it was left out, and substitution the z and s back to where it belongs. And the senator believes that electronic digital drums, and other instruments are of interest. From what I see, teenagers buy their music from the web, and do not know or have the means to transfer it from one ipod to another. We old farts still use vinyl 33 rpms, and full stereo orchestrial music. Not the big boom boom boom crap we here in the 3000 watt base speakers built-in to teenager cars. No Senator, good music would result in sales of cds and dvds. Poor music results in no-sales.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
As such, he believes that Joseph Smith, a convicted fraudster, found a cache of gold plates that were supposedly left there by a tribe of Israelites (Nephites) who came to America. Said convicted fraudster allegedly dug up said gold plates and a pair of sacred spectacles that allowed him to read said plates. The story gleaned from this became the Book of Mormon, a tome full of tales that are utterly absurd and have no basis in any mainstream science.
Given that Orrin Hatch believes this crap, it's only a short hop to believing that Canada is as bad as China and Russia with respect to copyright infringement.