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Passengers Cheat Flu Scan With Fever Reducers
Nguyen Van Chau, head of Ho Chi Minh City's Health Department, has revealed that many sick passengers who flew to Ho Chi Minh City used fever reducers to fool temperature scanners at the airport. The government has confirmed 26 people infected with H1N1 flu, 23 of whom came by air after traveling in the United States or Australia. State media reports that the discovery of these scanner cheaters led to the detection of several infected cases later.
How can you call a desired outcome of taking asprin (reducing a fever) with cheating?
WTF? Over?
If they avoided detection by the offending scanner, then how were they detected to be scanner cheaters?
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
Fever can be caused by lots of things. H1N1 isn't the only possible fever-inducing pathogen, and you can even have fever without having an infection. Preventing people with fever from travelling seems kind of an overkill.
It seems unlikely that they took the fever reducers strictly as a means of fooling the scanners. Common flu signs include aches and pains, and most of the pain relievers also reduce fevers.
Australian scientists had already pointed that.
Any life is made up of a single moment, the moment in which a man finds out, once and for all, who he is.
The article doesn't really explain whether this was deliberate cheating. Did any of these folks see a doctor who straight up told them "Yes, you have this dangerous flu virus, please avoid airline travel because we need to contain it?" Otherwise, it's not unusual for people to feel the onset of a cold or flu and take "medicine" (i.e. symptom blockers) so they can feel better and avoid missing work. Is it strange that people might do this to avoid missing a flight (and aren't airplane tickets often non-refundable?) with no intention of cheating anything? I mean, if you stopped random people in the street and asked them, I doubt most of them would even know that airliners have body-temperature scanners.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Those bastards, trying to keep their proteins from denaturing! Hang them, hang them high!
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
...can someone lend me that cool (but useless) thermal scanner so I can watch that hot girl that lives next door? That would be definitely useful.
Any life is made up of a single moment, the moment in which a man finds out, once and for all, who he is.
This is a misuse of technology and is very much security theatre. You're more likely to prevent the spread of flu by praying to the spaghetti monster. The thing is that people are panicked over this as it has been overhyped by the media. They're willing to put up with any inconvenience as long as they can trade it for a warm (but not too warm or you'll get scanned) safe feeling.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
I thought tylenol, ibuprofen, and the like were pretty commonly used when people get sick. How is this news, besides the fact that they decided to implement a ridiculous screening process that is easily bypassed?
Those SOB's took asprin when they had a fever! Get 'em!!!
Just take them to an interrogatory room!
- So, do you sneeze constantly?
- Er... no.
- I saw you sneeze before.
- I didn't.
- But supose you did. Why would you lie about sneezing?
- Hm, maybe because I wouldn't want you to know that I have the swine flu and lock me up in here.
- So, when did you get the flu then?
- I didn't get the flu.
- Oh, i see. We've got a smart-ass here!
Or, another way of seeing it:
1 - Come to the conclusion that a good swine flu detector would be useful.
2 - ???
3 - Build thousands of swine flu detectors and sell them.
4 - Profit!
Any life is made up of a single moment, the moment in which a man finds out, once and for all, who he is.
This comment is just continuing the bullshit that is in the article...
People didn't take fever reducers to fool the scanner. They took an aspirin 'cause they felt like crap.
So this vaunted "flu-scanner" can be fooled simply by taking Tylenol? Are you serious? Shouldn't it be assumed that anyone who is running a fever will most likely be taking fever-reducing medications?
Tell me again what the point of this scanner is?
I have a bad feeling about this...
In other news it was discovered that vampires are able to raise their body temperature high enough to fool heat cameras meant to detect the undead by drinking a gallon of hot coffee right before they pass the cameras.
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed H
.. who are taking 'fever reducers' are not cheating as they have no way of knowing whether or not they have the H1N1 virus. Furthermore I have the uneasy feeling that at some point, 'fever reducers' will be pulled off the shelves and H1N1 vaccination will be required. JMHO
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Uh-oh. Unauthorized thoughts detected.
If you have something that you dont want anyone to know, maybe you shouldnt be doing it in the first place -Eric Schmidt
So doing something to my own body is CHEATING?
That's what I told her :-(
Any life is made up of a single moment, the moment in which a man finds out, once and for all, who he is.
Because in our culture, your security is something that is done to you, not something in which you are actively involved. Being actively involved in your own interests would be a microcosm of self-determination, self-government, personal responsibility, and individualism. You know, those things that this country used to be all about. There is currently something of a war against those things right now, and I believe it's because they are perceived as obstacles by those who would like to see fascism in the USA. To be correctly appreciated, this must be seen not as isolated issues, but in terms of a few basic principles that determine many aspects of life.
To put that another way, you know what would really stop terrorists from hijacking an airplane? Hundreds of well-armed passengers. And no, a bullet hole will not decompress an aircraft.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
i prayed to the spaghetti monster, and i don't have the flu. ergo, it does work
If they avoided detection by the offending scanner, then how were they detected to be scanner cheaters?
Well, given that they infected other people, and eventually epidemiologists tracked them down via the people they infected...
To all those defending those who traveled while sick: I'm sorry, but if there is a travel ban because of a well publicized disease that is killing people, and you don't feel well, sit your selfish ass down in bed where it belongs. My parents raised me to stay home if I was sick, because it's beyond rude to make those around you sick. The regular flu kills kids and the elderly all the time. This one is much nastier.
Let me put it this way: if people had laptops that were infected, were booted off the network because of security software, and then defeated that security software to get online (and infected machines around them, destroying some of them)...what would you say then?
Please help metamoderate.
When you decided to live in/visit Vietnam.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
...and was therefore dropped by e.g. Hongkong as a response to the swine flu 'pandemic'. While we were there in May they changed their policy from quarantine to supervised medication once a day. Would have sucked to get stuck there for a whole week just because of elevated facial temperature - whether it's caused by H1N1, or 'normal' flu, or just because you're lugging heavy bags around after dehydrating for 12 hours in some damn' UA airplane with smelly watertanks.
Well... if you put it that way, if you take some "medicines" like steroids to i.e. change your body mass close to an olimpic competition, is called cheating, usually.
Probably the biggest problem wasnt that people took aspirines because they knew they were sick (in a situation where a pandemic is spreading, and you could be carrier, some people could put the criminal negligence label), but what about people that usually takes aspirines because headache or other minor things?
OK, you people have to figure out how things work under a Communist government. The higher-ups want to protect the country from H1N1, all the other Asian countries are doing it. Heat scanners are installed in all airports, with a masked nurse seated nearby filing her fingernails and ignoring the device. We've secured the country! But wait it seems H1N1 cases got through anyway. The higher-ups are furious, they were assured that heat detectors were deployed. Solution? Those shifty foreigners cheated our indigenously made infrared devices. Therefore, no punishment will be meted out as blame has been shifted. Someone always has to take the fall for mistakes, even if they were otherwise fully qualified as health director, head scientist, etc. History is full of officials who got sent to the gulag because they couldn't dodge the blame for something that didn't turn out perfectly.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
While I certainly believe tat the media has over-hyped H1N1, you have to also remember where the Scientific community's concern is.
The way it went with "the flu" that we keep hearing about in the '20s is that.
1) There was suddenly a spring flu that was both out of season and relatively mild (what we have now, and H1N1 appears to also be related to that earlier strain)
2) By the time of the Fall and the "usual" flu season, the strain from early spring had mutated dramatically making it extremely deadly (as these things go, killing 10-20% of those infected vs. the usual 0.1%). An estimated 500K-600K died in the U.S. (just to give an idea of scope).
Now, #2 MIGHT still happen, and its what those in the Infectious Disease community are afraid of, but you're right, the current version of H1N1 is relatively benign and overhyped by the media ... so far.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic)
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That chick in the scan? She's *hot*. Just look at the signatures on her!
I keep trying to pick fights, but I can't shake this Excellent karma.
I find it a little bit offensive that this article refers to the patrons as cheaters rather than referring to the organization that implemented this technology as short-sighted. If I have a fever, I take a fever reducer to, well, REDUCE my fever. It's not cheating, its common sense.
I wonder if these procedures aren't really helping spread the disease faster.
In Argentina, at EZE, my whole flight was squeezed into a very small (and hot!) space and then they let us out one by one as we passed in front of the scanner and were checked by grumpy old doctors.
You sure her being mad didn't have something to do with you looking at the girl next door with a temperature scanner?
Why, at least since the War on (some) Drugs. You don't own your body if the government can tell you what you may or may not put into it. Likewise, you don't own your consciousness if the government can tell you that there are authorized and unauthorized ways of altering it. In both cases, you are more like a tenant of your body and of your mind, not an owner. That's one of the major reasons why you don't use manipulative social engineering to solve perceived problems, because it sets some very nasty precedents like this. Precedents which later generations, having few or no counter-examples, grow up to believe are normal and acceptable.
If the War on Drugs actually did anything to reduce the street availability of the substances it seeks to control (do the research; it hasn't), I might feel differently about it, though I doubt it because my opposition to it is rooted in principle. As it has failed to achieve its primary stated goals, I consider it completely without merit and its ill side-effects to be unjustifiable. Anyway, to answer your question, yes we have ceded control over our bodies to the government and we did it a long time ago. We traded it for a little safety that hasn't kept us any safer but has guaranteed a steady flow of money to various criminal organizations by means of the black market. Like anyone else who trades what is priceless for something that has a price, we got screwed. Not only is some buyer's remorse in order, it's long overdue.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
We have been trying to sell these dang temperature scanners for months, but now we have a new marketing strategy to move them like hot cakes. We will accuse sick people using medicine of trying fool health officials to diabolically spread pandemic viruses and get the public to panic. Then we will be sitting pretty on all the new orders. Profit!
in our culture,
Kind of a stretch to call Ho Chi Minh City "our culture" when you're talking about the USA, no?
in our culture,
Kind of a stretch to call Ho Chi Minh City "our culture" when you're talking about the USA, no?
I didn't do a very good job of explaining how the silliness and security theater that is mostly being pioneered in the USA is now spreading even to distant nations with rather different beliefs such as Vietnam. As I did a poor job of that, I am glad you called me on it. I see all of that as a general process of decline that has no borders, though there are reasons why it happens in some places first and takes time to spread to others. To put that another way, while I can't prove it, I strongly suspect that, had the USA reacted in a completely rational, "real security and not security theater" sort of way to 9/11, others would have followed suit. Instead, we acquired a national willingness to let irrational fear rule the day and some years later we see these folks in Vietnam following our example instead of providing a counter-example. That's a shame because counter-examples that might put the lie to this hysteria are rather badly needed.
That culture I referred to was not specific to any one country (that'd be an improvement). I referred to Western culture in general. The only part I meant to be specific to the USA is that we in particular used to stand for something better than this. In a way, this is a commentary on how many traditionally non-Western nations are undergoing a process which could be called "Westernization", similar to what Japan and China have dealt with and continue to deal with. I don't consider Vietnam to be the world's only isolated island that is completely unaffected and uninfluenced by the cultures with which it interacts, in other words. The article/summary specifically mentioned travelers who had been to the US and Australia, so we are talking about people who are at least familiar with Western culture. And make no mistake; fascism is also without borders, or would like to be. Those who want it to happen to the USA would really love to see that spread throughout the world. That's just as emperors and dictators throughout history have dreamed of ruling the world, and several of them did rule the (known) world.
I hope that makes a bit more sense.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Before this there was SARS, hoof-and-mouth, mad cow, West Nile virus, and probably others I am forgetting that were supposed to be huge deadly threats. The problem is that after those, that community or at least what the media makes of them starts to look like the boy who cried "wolf" too many times. If the next one really is the deadly pandemic threat, I wouldn't be surprised if the general public's attitude is "yeah, we've heard THAT before." Either this is institutionalized stupidity, deliberate in nature, or they have thought of this and believe that their status as experts and authorities somehow exempts them from the effects of basic human nature.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
I wish to purchase one of these fine straw men,
for placement in my cornfield.
"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
Not for H1N1 but just for a milder flu, I took acetaminophen in mainland China(Guangdong) to get pass the checkpoint at the Hong Kong border. I had a flight leaving out of Hong Kong soon and wanted to get the hell out of China (I don't like it there).
The scanned me with a simple temp probe, check my passport and let me pass. Being held for observation at some random security check point in a strange country(to me) would have really sucked, especially given that I was not feeling well at all.
I likely spread my illness for 3 days before I even felt sick. So those checkpoints are not effective enough to matter, in my opinion.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Yes... but... people who had survived the mild first version of the 1918 flu were immune to the nasty later waves; it acted like an attenuated vaccine.
So maybe the best personal strategy (assuming no other complicating illnesses) would be to deliberately get infected with the mild version. Of course, that's assuming access to the vaccine will be limited.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
My body temperature has been about 1 deg. F below the average 98.6 degree F for years now. Every time I go in for a check up it is consistently low. I hope they don't scan me start screaming "Zombie outbreak!" and shoot me in the head :)
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
[Citation needed]
http://www.google.com/search?q=WHO+declares+pandemic
On the other hand, it's not nastier at all than other flu cases. Just look up the number of infected vs number of dead despite that the deaths are most of the time people with previous health issues (like normal flu).
Please help metamoderate.
To put that another way, you know what would really stop terrorists from hijacking an airplane? Hundreds of well-armed passengers. And no, a bullet hole will not decompress an aircraft.
Yeah I would feel much safer with that drunk jerk behind me packing heat. And when you get delayed on the tarmac for 6 hours I am sure he won't take out his frustration on the staff. It isn't like they already have to land planes to drag off people who freak out...
Lets look at some gun stats - http://www.metro.us/us/article/2009/06/16/03/5431-82/index.xml Looks like big pro-gun southern states see 300-500% more gun related deaths than states with strong gun control like Massachusetts. Problem with giving everyone guns is that obnoxious bully or mentally damaged teen also want guns, and when one person fires or misfires do you think grandma will keep her cool and not accidentally shoot the guy who stands up to look around pulling his own gun out? As a cope I wouldn't want to enter a plin with a couple hundred panicked gun toting passengers.
The last thing they need is a pitched gun battle with 30-40 people on a plane all trying to help by shooting at that other guy who must be a bad guy, I mean everyone can spot an Afghan/Saudi. No one will mistake that darkskinned guy, or jewish lady. No one will shoot that Arabic dude "just in case". Hell, only half of Americans know who was involved in 9/11 attacks and most of them couldn't identify a Saudi Arabian on sight.
Anyone Jewish, Arabic, Dark-skinned, would be an "obvious" threat. And it isn't like that bullet will go through multiple chairs and people before stopping... http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm I mean their tests only went through a dozen plywood walls and its not like anyone would miss while panicked and shooting at a human for the first time.
*shakes head* Keep the guns off the plane. Carrying in public is asking for trouble... People may panick when they see you packing heat, and if something does happen the right response is almost always to not use the gun. Yet that wasn't your first justification for bringing one, was it? It was to use in case of an attack , not as a deterrent. And hundreds of people shooting towards the cockpit won't cause any issues, right? I mean avionic electronics are not sensitive machines with wires running all over the plane... /end rant
we take a dump. If we don't, we get severe headaches, have runny nose, display duck-waddly gaits, incur a fever, and feel like shit all beCAUSE of shit.
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
We're too late. They're already here. They're even running for public office gawker.com!
But it's a two party system, so go ahead, throw your vote away!
[Insert Kang and Kodos laughter]
I lived in Asia during the SARS outbreak. Temperature scanners were used then, too, and they were pretty effective. SARS caused such high fevers that taking a fever-reducer probably wouldn't get you past screening. No crying wolf, there.
Mad cow/BSE? Has a bit in common with Y2K. The reason Y2K caused only minor, scattered problems was because of all the work that went into patching in the months before the end of 1999. I was a sysadmin at the time and was involved in that. Mad cow is the same way. It's a very serious disease, with no cure, and it's spread was contained and halted by aggressive controls on beef from countries with infections, and aggressive culling of infected herds.
Hoof-and-mouth was once a very serious disease that caused a lot of livestock losses. Because of that, it's still a great concern if there's an outbreak.
West Nile? 50/50. It's a pretty serious disease and has a relatively high fatality rate, especially in children and the elderly. It's typically fatal in animals that get it, but it hasn't spread very much in humans in the United States. That's partly because mosquito control has helped contain it in areas where it's been found. However, West Nile is a problem probably on the order of malaria in its indigenous range.
None of the cases you cite are cases of crying wolf. They are cases of effective response containing and ameliorating problems. If no one had done anything, you wouldn't be saying that. Instead, you'd be talking about them in the same breath as HIV, a problem that wasn't solved before it got out of hand and that still isn't solved today.
Don't be so sure. Having lived in Viet Nam and being married to a Vietnamese national, one thing I can tell you about the place is that if people can find a way to beat the system (and I say that with the utmost respect; systems are there to be beaten, and the VNese are very good at it), they will. TFA states that the passengers had traveled in the United States or Australia, from which I'm going to infer that most or all of them were either VNese nationals or Viet kieu. That's mostly what you see on flights between the US west coast and Viet Nam, so it's also a statistical likelihood.
While I'm sure they also felt bad, I'm pretty sure there was intent to beat the system, too.
Every time the fascist controls are screwed in a notch tighter, the action will be accompanied by a very reasonable explanation. Any seasoned debater will tell you that 'logic' is a very twisty thing indeed which can be used to justify and defend any damned fool position you choose to take --and that winning a debate has far more to do with charisma, wit and processor speed than it does with actually being correct.
That is what is happening here -in spades-, and you, mister, it is YOUR job to not get hoodwinked. You fail. The government is smarter than you.
-FL
While they may not have given consent to be screened, they didn't have to. In most countries (all?), you don't have the right to not be screened at immigration in pretty much whatever way they see fit. I used to live in Viet Nam, and that's certainly the case there. If, upon entering the country, I were to be asked to undergo some form of secondary screening and were to refuse, my options would be:
1) To be arrested
2) To be detained and be put back on a plane leaving the country
3) To be detained until I changed my mind about screening
4) To be detained and screened whether I liked it or not. Then, the possibility of being arrested or deported rather than allowed to enter the country as planned.
Keep in mind that the immigration authorities of *any* country don't have to let anyone in if they don't want to. Even if you show up with a visa in your passport, that means nothing. It's just permission from a consulate or embassy abroad for you to be given a visa when you arrive, but the *real* visa is what the person at the immigration desk stamps in your passport. And they pretty much have the right to refuse to let you in for any reason or for none. This is true even in western democracies. The immigration authorities have the legal right to not let you in if they don't want to, and in many places they also have the legal right to screen you in pretty much any way they want. Even if the legal right is unclear, the practical fact is that they have the power to do so, regardless of what the law may or may not say.
A few years ago, the Ho Chi Minh City airport was behind in technology and was a pain to travel through. I doubt even 2 years ago that they had this device installed there. I've traveled to this airport 3 times in the past few years. During my last trip back in February the airport was completely renovated and was amazed at the fact it no longer seemed like a third world country inside the airport. First time there, before the renovation, it was extremely difficult to get through all the people to get checked baggage off the conveyor. Now it seems like they actually want to provide a good, fast, friendly service to the people traveling in and out of this airport.
You can wear a hoodie inside the airport, but the moment you step out, you will have to take off your shirt just to keep from getting too hot, even at night. The air alone will make you sick if your ride a motorcycle around HCMC without a mask. Though I don't know what's worse, the air pollution or the noise pollution.
I doubt I would be worried about getting H1N1 in HCMC. I'd be more worried that the communist country won't let you blog about how bad the government is and how corrupt the police are if you are living there. I have family living there in HCMC, they are more worried about someone going to California or Mexico to get H1N1 than in Vietnam.
Also, in Vietnam, Vietnamese people are very impolite, and can be inconsiderate when flying. Flying to and from HCMC from either Seoul, Korea or Hong Kong, the Vietnamese people seem to be pushy and rude. Seems they don't have proper flight etiquette. Then when you get outside the HCMC airport, it's difficult to see if someone is waiting for you to arrive, as there are hundreds of people always packed together blocking your view and taking up almost the complete walkway as you exit.
Correlation (number of guns compared to number of gun deaths) does not equal causation.
Nowhere in that article did I see a mention of the fact that the states listed as having high gun death rates are also states with high poverty rates, high racial tension, etc which also correlate neatly to gun crimes. Nowhere in that article did I see a mention of the OTHER side of the coin, either - that many areas with more gun owners have lower crime rates than the national average. See Kennesaw, Georgia as one example... whereas its oft-cited opponent Morton Grove is a suburb of Chicago where the crime rates look like this.
So according to my own correlations, crime rates are clearly higher in areas where gun ownership is restricted. And clearly, those people who carry guns must all know how to use them, and have practiced with them, etc. I too can argue without any real facts about the personalities and abilities of gun owners and the probable results of guns on a plane... but the flu virus is not a gun and can't be stopped with one so why the hell is this post even relevant?
The difference is you don't spread drugs accidentally to everyone you come into contact with
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
Many sick passengers who flew to Ho Chi Minh City in southern Vietnam took fever reducers to cheat temperature scanners at the airport, leading to the discovery of several infected cases later, state media reported at the weekend.
The public must understand that our security measures are not completely ineffective, subject to false positives, subject to false negatives, and a sham intended to make the public think we are "doing something" and "keeping them safe". Rather, the fault lies with those terrorists who are deliberately attempting to endanger the public with their aspirin-taking.
"We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
Should it be the airlines responsibility to refund all tickets in case of contagious illness? Debatable...
The point is, are we, as consumers, willing to pay that cost of insurance to reduce the chance of becoming sick from a plane flight? Probably not.. That's the risk of travelling that we have all accepted for some time. If you're bubble-boy, stay your ass at home, because you would be complaining if you had to pay a mandatory cancellation insurance fee as well...
Quarantine procedures are also, at times, completely justified. Not saying they are in this case, but in some cases they are. When you become a hazard to others, we (the people) have the right to remove you until you no longer are a hazard. This isn't tyranny, this is the social contract in its purest form.
Yes, I'd agree with that. It's a very rational position to take.
My problem is that this rational argument is being used to get away with calling people, "cheaters" who happened to 'defeat' a (probably secret) infrared camera system at an airport; people who did so almost certainly without any kind of nefarious intentions, simply because they happened to be taking over the counter cold remedies because they didn't want to feel like crap when they landed. . , that smacks to me of fear-mongering by whoever wrote the article when perhaps the article should have been about how the government is watching people with sneak-o-vision cameras while trying to guilt us into submission through the use of fear-mongering propaganda articles like the one in evidence here. The fact that it happened to be about this specific virus is just a nice coincidence for the P.R. department as I would bet that the camera system was put in place long before this whole Swine Flu thing started getting any media traction.
Still, I was wrong to come down hard on you, and I apologize for that, but seriously, this is either a ploy, or it is the result of a journalists who has been so well programmed that he doesn't even realize he's become part of the problem.
-FL
I was trying to be very careful here, since I don't know the facts to any great degree. If this fits the conditions you put on it (unstated rule, etc...), then I agree 100%. If not, then nuance comes into play.
I just accepted it at face value, until further facts come into play. So many people jumped on it as evidence of tyranny, I figured I might as well try to cover the other side, just in case there is legitimacy here (which is the crucial, and unanswered, question).
Still, I was wrong to come down hard on you, and I apologize for that...
An apology on /.? You must be new here. ...this is either a ploy, or it is the result of a journalists who has been so well programmed that he doesn't even realize he's become part of the problem.
Probably a bit of both, and a small bit of Korean politics, with a dash of /. editor flamebaiting.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey