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Kindle, Zune DRM Restrictions Coming Into Focus
It's not news that the media you buy for both Kindle and Zune are protected by DRM. Readers are sending in stories of some of the ramifications of that fact. First, Absentminded-Artist notes an account at Gear Diary recounting what an Amazon rep told one user about download limits on Kindle books. "One facet of the Kindle's DRM has reared an ugly head: download limitations. Upgraded your iPhone recently? Bought a new Kindle? You may not be able to reload your entire library. There's an unadvertised flag: 'You mean when you go to buy the book it doesn't say "this book can be downloaded this number of times" even though that limitation is there?' To which [the rep] replied, 'No, I'm very sorry it doesn't.'" Next, reader Rjak writes "DRM is a bad idea, poorly implemented. One of the many many valid reasons to drop Zune and its marketplace is the DRM validation error you see below. The vast majority of the music I had purchased last year is completely gone. There's no refund, the music doesn't exist on the service anymore, the files are just garbage now. Here's the error (screen capture): 'This item is no longer available at Zune Marketplace. Because of this, you can no longer play it or sync it with your Zune. There might be another iteration of it available in Zune Marketplace.'" Update: 06/23 00:28 GMT by KD : The Gear Diary blog has been updated with what may be more definitive information from Amazon on how the Kindle DRM behaves.
DRM has not been implemented correctly to date. While you might hope that your iTunes or Kindle--being a popular product--will have flawless DRM that will not inhibit you, this is simply not the case. It's always just a time bomb waiting to go off in your face.
...
If you gotta buy digital books or music, don't fall for any DRM scheme. Here's an example that even the biggest digital retailers can't get it right. I await a flawless DRM that will work on multiple pieces of hardware--hardware that I choose! I fear I will be waiting for quite some time
And please, I'm sick of responses to my posts with some snide remark that you don't have DRM and yours is free with a link to the Pirate Bay. It's getting old. I want to support the content providers but I don't want to give up or inhibit my rights to access that content.
My work here is dung.
But then I have all my music in a format which can be read pretty much anywhere.
Deleted
Honestly, if you don't like it, nobody's forcing you to buy a zune or kindle. Boycotts are the only way these companies are gonna learn that customers won't tolerate DRM.
DRM is a fundamentally broken concept. It relies on the argument that you're purchasing a service and not a product, but then you're treated as though you purchased a product and not a service. In effect what's happening is that the consumer expends money and then literally has no rights whatsoever and, thanks to TOS/EULAs, no recourse either.
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
I still use my old PDA for ebooks.
It's got a color screen circa 2004 but hey,
I can't throw it away and eBaying it would only get me five bucks :(
I hope it doesn't sound like too minor of a gripe, but I greatly prefer to call it encumbered by DRM.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
The Zune still exists?
I'm genuinely not meaning to trash MS, I really thought that the Zune was a dead product. I've never actually even seen one.
The emerging problem is certainly books and video. Niether of these is going to be trivial to convert to electronic format anytime soon, and the files don't seem be trivial to burn to an unprotected format either. This means that video and books are still on the list, as music used to be, of only be useful as long as the files stay in good shape. It is interesting that Amazon has chosen to take this one step further and limit it to a number of devices. As the article states, since one is to upgrade often, and the files are owned by Amazon, this puts an effective lifetime on the books. Where on can buy a hardback and refer to it for a lifetime, the Kindle will eventually break.
I think this is a good argument against most e-book readers. The publishers are not going to fully support them, and unless there is special need, the consumer does not get the value. Movies, are another issue, but pretty much I don't buy movies to download. Better value with $5-10 dvd.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
To those complaining. Do NOT buy DRM media.
Every time you pay for an item you support DRM.
And when things go awry, you come here complaining?!
Always be sure that, if you buy DRMed content, there is a crack for it out there. Strip the DRM as soon as you buy it. Problem solved.
When the library of classic works available so dwarfs what you can expect to complete in a mere few years anyway?
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
The first thing I do when I download media with DRM these days is strip the DRM. If I can't figure out how to strip it before I lay down my money, I pass. DRM does nothing to enhance my experience and can only serve to detract from my experience.
Back 7 or 8 years ago, when ebooks were making their first surge, I bought about $50 worth from various vendors and didn't strip the DRM. It was a bit of an experiment to see how it would turn out. One of the vendors shut down just weeks after I made my purchase. I hadn't even activated one of the titles yet so it was a total loss. The other one was only readable as long as that computer lived. Same happened with the rest of the titles eventually. So $50 worth of ebooks I purchased just a few years ago are gone forever. Meanwhile, paperbacks I purchased when I was a kid still work just as well as the day I bought them. Nevermind the hassle of keeping track of each vendor's authentication system and the crap-ton of different software packages I had to install to handle all of those methods.
The funny thing is this isn't even the first time a major online music "seller" has screwed people by revoking access to purchased media. Wasn't it just a few years ago that some big seller shut down or changed their authentication system and the users got a big FU for all of their lost music?
is the problem in this case. The device is not without flaws, but it seems unfair to blame the device for a flaw with the app store (I'd criticize it more for not being able to handle naturally occurring dates). The majority of users won't use their player for DRM protected content although they should clearly have the ability to do so without worrying about this scenario. Pathetic doesn't even begin to describe these types of restrictions.
Walmart wanting to shut down their DRM servers?
I would do the same thing, if I could figure out how to make complete copies of the 100+ DVD disc collection I have.
This is the same reason why I buy all my music in CD format and all my games in Disc format. I am already into some Niche genres as it is (Movie scores, euro-style power metal, heavy metal, Japanese-Pop; and on the game side JRPGS) so what is to stop these companies from removing the Niche stuff from their services because they don't think very many consumers are going to miss them? Sadly one of my cds I picked up used was one of those old DRM'd cds from Sony that I can't rip, but at least I can listen to it as much as I want. The point of all this is that in the end the physical media is the better bargain regardless of the online options.
I'm wondering, did Rjak buy his music from the Zune store, or rent it with the pass? If the former, I thought that all Zune music was DRM-free, unless Microsoft is being idiodic and didn't or doesn't allow users to upgrade their previously purchased music to a non-limited format after the change. If the latter, then he really shouldn't be complaining at all. Either way, this is why I don't bother with DRM-laced music stores anymore. Far too much hassle.
There are tons of DVD rippers and 1.5tb drives are regularly on sale for $120. Sometimes even $110. Dual layer burners are $20-25.
Vendors who incorporate DRM and who rig it so the songs quit working when certain events happen will be in trouble with the law if they don't advertise this in advance, like "if you buy this song, you may have to buy it again if you upgrade your media device or if it breaks and is repaired."
Failure to do that is breach of implied contract: You bought the music with the understanding it would work at least for the lifetime of the device on which it was originally installed.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Every single piece of DRMed music is available in some other format, be it a purchasable CD (my personal choice), or via other, possibly less legal means. Get your music in a non-DRMed format and do what you like with it.
It's not like this is the first time we've heard of customers getting shafted by DRM. It's been going on for years. Learn from it and move on to something you know you can use.
Until recently it's only been Slashdot Types that were aware of the evils of DRM. Once the general masses are aware of it, they won't stand for it. Or maybe I give them too much credit...
I guess a crappy DRM ripoff is a better deal than $80,000.00 per download with no DRM.....but not much better. You would think that Microsoft was capable of real innovation, but no.... Once you've got lots of shareholders its all about squeezing every dollar out of a weary market, even if its not a very good experience for anyone. I see DRM as the result of greed mixed with technology and music. Too bad they can't just sell us blank tapes like 20 years ago when copyright infringement was a charge placed against someone who mas produced and SOLD the material, not customers who copied a CD for their car stereo. Hopefully this nonsense will find a balance...once the beast has been adequately fed with our $$, I suppose. D R M = Demand Royalty Money.
Welcome to Slashdot. We don't censor here (ahem: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker motherfucker tits), so self-censoring just, well, makes your title look stupid. No offence intended.
Also, there's a solution to your problem: Don't buy anything that has DRM. I don't, and I do quite well. CDs are still sold, you know, and so are books.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Zune Marketplace is 90% DRM free currently since 2008. Also with a Zune pass, you get unlimited songs (with DRM), however you get to keep 10 songs DRM free per month.
Source: http://www.twice.com/article/CA6618369.html
> DRM is a bad idea, poorly implemented.
Should be DRM is a bad idea [FULL STOP].
There is no good implementation of DRM and there never will be. There can't be when you assume that EVERY customer is out to rip you off and you wish to enforce it on everyone, some of which are (or maybe were now) loyal customers. The irresponsibility that is being shown in these examples are just the topping on the cake... but it sure gives your a look inside their psyche. Their point of view is "we're big, we don't have to follow the rules and play fair... but you MUST follow our rules or we take our ball home."
According to P.T.Barnum, there's a 'sucker born every minute'. He goes on to say that one should 'never give a sucker an even break'.
To those who actually pay out money for DRM-encumbered media... "Come in, Sir! Welcome, Madam! There's this bridge spanning Sydney Harbour, priced way beneath its value, that you may be interested in buying shares in!"
Personally, I try to acquire my media files - ebooks, music and video - for free. If I can't get them for free, I'm sometimes willing to pay for them. But the only way I'll even think about paying is if I'll be ending up with cleartext files. Hell will freeze over before I'll put down hard money in return for some encrypted copy of a media file. WTF are consumers thinking?!?
-- In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was UNSIGNED, and the main(){} was without form and void...
Microsoft seems to be violating their own Zune EULA:
Microsoft may from time to time make available for download from the Services certain images, artwork, photographs, videos, and other content (the "Downloadable Content"). Microsoft hereby grants you a limited, non-transferable, nonexclusive license to download such content solely for your personal, noncommercial use in accordance with these Terms of Use. Such license shall be limited to the specific purpose for which such Downloadable Content was made available (e.g. for use as wallpaper or poster prints, as specified in connection with the download), and you may not modify, distribute, perform, transmit , create derivative works of or otherwise use such Downloadable Content or make any commercial or public use thereof. Downloadable Content shall only include content which Microsoft specifically identifies as being available for download, and you agree not to remove of obscure any copyright notice that appears in the Downloadable Content.
Note the words "Microsoft hereby grants you a limited, non-transferable, nonexclusive license to download such content solely for your personal, noncommercial use in accordance with these Terms of Use." Microsoft granted you a license. They didn't provide a provision which allows them to revoke that license. They don't have the option, once having sold you a license, to take it back. The FTC was out to lunch during the Bush Administration, but they're back in business.
So if you have a Zune, and it won't play something you paid for, go to the Federal Trade Commission online complaint page and start filling out the form.
The FTC was out to lunch during the Bush Administration years, but that's over. They're back in business.
Which is why I find it misleading when Amazon shows the price of the kindle version and directly compares it to the price of the deadtree version. They are really two completely different animals, and this hidden download limit is one great example of what makes the comparison false.
(I try to use my kindle and kindle iphone app with open eyes, but I didn't know about this download limit until now.)
...over the years, thousands upon thousands of dollars for CDs, LPs, cassettes and even 8-tracks, for God's sake (yes, I'm old). My feeling is (as someone else expressed above) if I bought it once, I can download it as often as I like. I have no idea how close or far away that is from "the law" or fair use, etc. But I really don't care.
In fact, for most of my older favorites over the years I've bought both the LP and CD versions. In which case I really, really don't lose any sleep over downloading a clandestine MP3, FLC, SHN or WAV version of the same.
RIAA? Come and get me, f*ckers.
sig has been sent away for a few small repairs...
DVD Decrypter >> VOBBlanker (to remove the stupid FBI Warnings and stuff) >> DVDShrink (To Shrink the rest to 4.4Gb) I've done about 70 DVDs this way.
From what I remember, the Zune pass allows you access to anything in the Zune store library as long as you pay the subscription. Removed from the library? Can't listen to the music. Stop paying? Can't listen to the music. You are not purchasing any music, you are paying money to access a library. The Zune marketplace is a completely different service than outright purchasing music. I believe they give you 10 un-DRM'd downloads per month along with the subscription, so you can see they do see the fact that their customers want DRM-free tracks.
For any media that you want to keep long term, you need to revise your thinking. You cant STORE DVD movies on a single hard drive. You need at least 2 more for backups so now your cost has ballooned to $360 plus infrastructure to run/store them.
Amazon reps got in contact with the guy.... They simply don't a have a clue of what happens, and may try to change policy. Worth a read...
http://www.geardiary.com/2009/06/21/kindlegate-confusion-abounds-regarding-kindle-download-policy/#more-34458
While the DRM part is accurate (and why is it Microsoft's fault the company that provided the music originally pulled its license? Clue: it isn't its the fault of the folks that OWN the licenses to the music, not Microsoft, but its easier to throw rocks at Microsoft than it is some record company right?), the rest of the Facebook (now Slashdot is trolling Facebook to find AntiMicrosoft and DRM rhetoric?), is simply put, bunk, or this fellows crappy computer. I too use a Zune and have NONE of the issues he is having. While the Zune software can take a few seconds to start, mostly due to the login to the Zune Music Store, it does NOT lock up your computer at ALL. And plugging the Zune in works just fine. Closing the Zune software is instant and painless. Pesonally I think its PEBKAC, but again its easier just to blame Microsoft than it is the end user...
One of the many many valid reasons to drop Zune....
Really, you should be dropping a zune every day. Constipation is no laughing matter.
"There might be another iteration of it..."
/. know what "Iteration" means; but PLEASE find me 10 (non-dev and non-IT) people on the street who can give a definition of "Iteration" in that sentence.
Another ITERATION of it?!?!?!?
This error message demonstrates EXACTLY why Microsoft Just Doesn't Get It(TM).
Most people on
If you have your C++ code jockeys approve Error text, this is what you get.
You would NEVER see the word "Iteration" (howabout "Copy"?) in an Apple Dialog (unless it was in a dev. tool like XCode).
"Iteration", INDEED!
Jamie Thomas just got fined $1.9M for having files on her computer that were never proven to be shared with anyone unauthorized (MediaSentry is a fully authorized download) and owned all the CD's of the songs in question. So just what did she purchase?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
All I could see when I read that was the big honking word "LIMITED".
Limited to time? Sure. Availablity? Why not!
Seems to me they more than met the obligations set forth when in fact the time you could use the content was indeed limited. They told you it would be right there.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The hidden download limit is out and out fraud. They are not giving you what they lead you to believe they were. It's no different than putting 3 pints of product into a bottle marked as 2 quarts.
You can go to the Zune Marketplace and just buy DRM-free MP3s if you want to as well. ZunePass is just a different way of accessing it. There is DRMed music there too. I rarely find that the a particular song I want on there has DRM, but it is there. When I encounter it, I try Amazon instead.
1 (short ton / firkin) = 89.1432354 slugs / keg
Um. My user number's WAY lower than yours. I know I can cuss and swear. I choose not to spell out the profanity unless it's really called for.
As for not buying DRM-laden media, that's fine. I don't do it often. However, when I do, I make sure I'll be able to access it on my own terms. Most of what I strip these days is actually free audio book rentals from the library. I can't play protected .wma in my car but I can play .mp3 and unprotected .wma no problem. So I strip the DRM, burn a CDRW, then listen to the book. When I'm done, I overwrite the disc with the next book. Probably breaking the law but, if I am, it's a stupid law.
If it were unlimited, then you would have all rights to the work.
But if the license clause doesn't say "as long as we run the server" or "for one download only", then such limits cannot be made to stick, since such a limit wasn't in the contract signed.
Now, if they want to give you a refund or a change in the license terms and you get to chose which, then this is acceptable: you're negotiating on a new license.
I hate DRM as much as the next person (or at least the next person who understands it), but this isn't really that different from buying the actual book. If I buy a book from Amazon, I get one copy. If I lose it for any reason (theft, fire, etc.), they will not replace it. That having been the case with physical books, why would you assume that no similar limitation exists with digital books? Does it say somewhere in their terms of service that you can download the books you purchase from them any number of times? (Serious question as I don't know anything about the kindle book service.)
This is also why I wouldn't buy any ebook reader where I can't load my own ebooks on to it.
19 plastic disc's.
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
All you're accomplishing is telling these companies that DRM is fine with you. And the ones you don't download, they figure you're just stealing that. There is no way to get feedback to the company that your purchases are dependent on breaking DRM, or in other words you won't buy anything that has DRM, because you keep stripping it without telling them.
All of the people who figure it's OK to buy something for one device and have to re-buy it later, and they do exist, appear exactly the same to these sellers. Ah they say, here's another customer who doesn't mind DRM. And so they can't get an accurate count.
People who get screwed and then don't sue are a big part of the problem. Unfortunately lawsuits cost time and money, and this is not a very soundly tested legal area because no one wants to spend the time or money to contest DRM schemes failing the user. People with the money to front a lawsuit probably can mentally write off a purchase like this and just buy again in a different format. Someone seriously hurt by a $50 purchase that doesn't work will probably not have the money.
In other words, it's your fault. Don't buy it, or sue when it doesn't work, or at least complain loudly. Call a product's help line while you're standing in the store and ask does it have DRM? Ok, sorry thanks I won't be buying it. The only way that works of course is if enough people call. "They won't listen to me," sure. But they will listen if enough people can be bothered to call.
A physical book takes resources to create, data can be replicated (effectively) an infinite number of times at virtually no cost to a business that's already making a profit.
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
Is the Zune a Vista-quality product, or is Vista a Zune-quality product?
Supposedly you can burn them. Then re-rip as mp3.
The download restrictions are very real and IMO near criminal since the device wasn't sold to me as a single download device. In fact it was sold as "amazon will keep copies so you can always access books you own" so imagine my surprise...
I have a book that I bought and downloaded to my Kindle and moved back and forth to the archive storage at amazon then back to the Kindle (due to problems with the original download..I mention this to be complete but I have no idea if this affected the DRM). I then attempted to access it on my iPhone while waiting at the doctor's office to pass the time and was informed that I had exceeded the download limit and if I wanted to continue to read it I would have to purchase it again. Additionally for this book Text-to-Speech is disabled which is a feature I use when I work out.
The book in question is House of Cards: A Tale of Hubris and Wretched Excess on Wall Street by William D Cohen. It is published by Doubleday. I won't be buying any more of Mr. Cohen's books or those published by Doubleday unless I can confirm that these limits do not exist on future purchases. Additionally despite the fact that the the Kindle is my single favorite gadget I own, this single incident kept me from purchasing the DX (which I wanted for PDF support) due to the fact I knew that the idiotic DRM policies of various publishers would make it impossible for me to seamlessly transfer texts between the two devices and the whole point of owning a Kindle for me is to travel light. Fix it Amazon or you will lose at least one customer.
I avoid DRM media because of the simple fact that it interferes more with my ability to enjoy my legally purchased rights to the media than it stops pirates. Corps just don't get it - DRM doesn't stop pirates. DRM does lose them sales because it turns off users.
DRM is "prior restraint". Prior Restraint is illegal. It isn't necessarily recognized as this because the "government" doing the restraining is not a recognized entity and it is doing it via purely technological means.
As to the argument whether the media cartel is a government, well they have been given the power of law enforcement to back them up and the procedure and is enshrined in the DMCA in the US.
Company puts thing on media to prevent use and reproduction including in publishing. Government sanctions thing and enacts laws to protect thing and punish those who obstruct thing by any means. Government leaves control of thing to Company. Company is now a "psudo-governmental agency". Thing is now Prior Restraint.
IANAL.
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
Well... 100 DVDs at say (rounding up) 10GB a DVD... that's around 1TB or so if you rip to ISO so you can enjoy the complete experience, including those annoying non-skippable previews for movies you're not interested in and anti-piracy adds. But personally I'd recommend buying a few 1 or so TB hard-drives (for redundancy in case a drive decides to die on you) and having at 'em with a ripper. Should take a week or two. Display your backup DVDs with their purdy case art on a shelf somewhere for people to admire and use the mpegs on your mythbox when you want to watch the movies themselves. Or at least that's what I've done with my DVD collection.
And yes I know it's technically illegal, but fuck it, I pay good money to legally purchase all of my music and movies in physical form, so I'll watch them wherever and however I damn well want.
To clarify things just a bit, a ZunePass subscription allows you to DL music to be played on your PC and synced to your Zune. It's not a purchase, it's basically leasing the rights to listen to it. If and when a record label renegotiates its licensing contract with MS/ZM, they may or may not renew the license for music that some may have "leased" through the subscription service.
If you actually purchase music or videos through Zune Marketplace instead of DL-ing subscription content, you own the content and there is no DRM. You can listen to it, burn it to discs, and, for those of you so inclined, upload it to your favorite illegal sharing service with no hassles.
If you fail to backup your music library and want to re-DL previously purchased tracks (which sounds like Rjak's problem) you will indeed need to buy the tracks again.
If you understand the difference between a subscription and a purchase and back-up your files, you'll never have a problem with Zune MarketPlace.
As for the software being buggy, the biggest factor in load times relates to how many available resources your PC has. My Zune software loads in about 15 seconds.
Don't get me wrong, DRM sucks, but so do people that don't bother to understand a system and then blame said system for their ignorance.
I only use linux (and solaris before that) & DRM has not been a problem. My challenge was figuring out how to create a mp3 using linux. I found LAME and it works well enough for the transfers to the phone. I'd never compress anything for serious listening.
and it is called Steam
While I agree that DRM is a bad idea, I am really surprised by the people's expectation that once you buy something, you have a permanent right to it. Reading that guy's email about not being able to have his digital book on 8 devices - geez, get a grip! Imagine you bought a physical book, in hard copy, for $40. And now you wanted the nice paperback for the airplane. Guess what? You have to buy another one. What if you left the book somewhere? Guess what - no would cares if you "already paid good money for it". You would STILL have to buy another one. If I buy a CD and it breaks - guess what? The store is not going to give me a new one.
DRM is an attempt to make digitial objects act more like physical objects. IRL, I can show you a photo of my kids without giving you the photo. IRL, if I give you my copy of a book, I no longer have it. Etc.
Also - I have to agree with many posters here in calling BS on people's "outrage" against DRM. If you don't like it, don't buy it. But don't complain about DRM while also posting gushing reviews of Hollywood movies.
Some filters block pages with keywords. That'd be one reason to obfuscate strong language even if slashdot doesn't need it.
All I have to say is if you are so stupid as to buy a product made by a company that consistently and relentlessly screws you over you deserve what you get. I have zero sympathy here. As much as I hate Microsoft I would have much more sympathy for someone who bought a Zune who didn't understand the implications- that the underlying problem is Microsoft/Apple/Sony greed.
Welcome to 2009. Top news: iTunes dropped DRM.
But that way you support a flawed business model. Better use iTunes+ (Music) or Fictionwise Multiformat (Books) both of which are DRM free.
Strange that no one mentions Mobipocket while bashing Amazon. Mobipocket is a subsidiary of Amazon and there customers face a yet another problem with DRM: No devices to read on [1].
The Mobipocket DRM is actually quite fair - as far as DRM goes. Up to 4 devices, old devices can be deleted, new devices added. Re-download as often as you like. And full dozen differed devices to read on.
So DRM was bearable - until Amazon bought the company. It seems that Amazon thought this set-up far to liberal. Of course Amazon did not shut down the company - that would have gotten them into trouble. They should down the software development, shelved the finished iPhone reader and did not licence the file format to Sony for use in the PRS-505.
Now all they have to do is wait until all our mobile devices have have been replaced and hope we all jump for Kindle instead. Embrace, Extend, Extinguish at it's best Only there is two tiny flaw in there plan:
1) Mobipocket is mostly European shop and we can't get Kindle in Europe.
2) We found out about it and now we run a boycott Amazon campaign instead.
And yes, I know it won't help. Those multinational corporations have enough unconcerned, uninformed customer to ever care about a boycott.
[1] http://www.mobipocket.com/forum/index.php
It should be noted that upon installing the iPhone 3.0 update, one must once again agree to the iTunes Store Terms of Service. Careful examination reveals this contract to be sixty-seven pages in length. I shit you not.
I've never used Zune Pass.
I understand the difference. I bought the music, and it was taken away for completely retarded reasons. Going in, I understood that what I was buying had DRM and my usage would be restricted, but I never in a million years thought that the rights would just be taken away. As for understanding the Zune marketplace, you don't. Read up.
DRM is the reason I won't be getting an e-reader, no matter how much I'd really like to get one. I read my books often enough that if I don't get them in hard cover, I'll be buying another paperback of that book in a few years. As much as I'd love to read my books and avoid killing more trees than I have to, I'm not about to buy an encumbered book on an encumbered e-reader. Last thing I want is someone, somewhere to decide that I don't have access to a book I've purchased. When I hear about some of the "features" of Kindle (remote deletion) I want to scream. What gives them the right to even think about doing such a thing?
Never mind the problems you'd end up with when upgrading from one e-reader to another, or if publisher goes out of business taking their DRM servers with them. I don't appreciate being treated like a criminal when I'm buying something legally. I don't want a device with a built in "claw-back provision".
So, until that's dealt with, I definitely won't be getting one.
The term Digital Rights Management is already trying to slant the conversation in the other direction. It's not 'managing' your rights, it's removing your rights.
Sure, the guy with the mask and the gun didn't just rob you, he was just performing Financial Management for you. Using a bad word like 'rob' just makes the conversation less civil...
Yeah, I noticed that after I posted. Oh, for the lack of an edit button.
Anyway, I used to do that sort of thing, but I've tried to avoid it nowadays. I try to prevent supporting them in any way.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
And please, I'm sick of responses to my posts with some snide remark that you don't have DRM and yours is free with a link to the Pirate Bay. It's getting old. I want to support the content providers but I don't want to give up or inhibit my rights to access that content.
Not all authors and publishers ascribe to this mindset.
Customer for their services/products is the correct term...quit subscribing to the marketing hyperbole prevalent that enables this 'consumer' crap that disables choice!
Do you eat or drink the digital files? No! They are still available in their original form for infinite copies to download- you are only subscribing or purchasing as a customer of that service.
Consumer is a marketing term to enable the mindset of the customers to eliminate free choice and having a say in what and how they choose to purchase as a customer.
Bottom line: if you are not eating or drinking it, you are a customer, not a consumer. Quit enabling this crippling mindset, as it is detrimental to society, and future business.
I only consume as a customer in a pub or restaurant. Consuming has nothing to do with media, as the original copy is still available since I have not 'gobbled it up', thus making it unavailable to others. I don't 'consume' media...I either watch it, or listen to it, without affecting other's ability to do the same with that, or another infinite copy of said media.
Explain to me how I can 'consume', thus deplete, digital media, and I *might* entertain the whole consumption of any form of IP. Until then, you are just barking at the moon as far as I am concerned.
Any subscription model that uses DRM will eventually come around the tree and bite you in the ass. See:Walmart's digital service, MS's 'plays for sure' tech that they did not support on their own Zune player, Napster's subscription service, Rhapsody, etc....
All of the 'subscription' models suffer this same fate of leaving the customer 'high and dry'.(another downside to the 'consumer' mentality)
Instead of supporting the 'content providers', switch to supporting the 'artists', even if it takes the form of downloading from TPB, then slipping the actual artists with some cash with a note on why you went this route.
This misnomer that 'piracy' has a profound effect on the artist that has signed away his/their rights to the distributor is getting old and worn out. They typically sign away all rights to the distributor/label, and see slim, if any income from subsequent song/album sales.
Support them directly! Send an irrefutable message to artists and distributors/labels!
Trent Reznor and Radiohead, among others are starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Labels and Distributors/content providers are still seeing a train as the light at the end of the tunnel, and want the fare proceeds to see/ride the train without reaising the light is sunlight, instead of another train.
It's like raising kids, or training horses...make it easy to 'do the right thing' and difficult to 'do the wrong/detrimental' things in life. It's not hard if you use your head and a little dedication to the advancement of society/horse training.**
Yeah, it sounds harsh and inhumane on the surface, but think about it....(why do humans try so hard to seperate themselves from our physical/animal world? I have found that raising kids is not significantly different from training 'other' animals in reality, until the human wants educated for a purpose...otherwise the same, doubt me and check what is popular on TV/Movies/music!)
**I have raised many horses, and a few children...the concept works fabulously when applied consistently and positively.
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
I've never used Zune Pass. I understand the difference. I bought the music, and it was taken away for completely retarded reasons. Going in, I understood that what I was buying had DRM and my usage would be restricted, but I never in a million years thought that the rights would just be taken away. As for understanding the Zune marketplace, you don't. Read up.
Regarding *your* experience, I stand corrected. I've been using ZP & ZM for two years. Never had the problem as you described, never lost ANY music I bought.
Perhaps subscribers receive preferential treatment.
The simple solution may be for you to purchase music elewhere; Amazon MP3 for example.
Mod this one (parent) up.
Whoever sent the facebook photo, either is doing something *very* wrong, or found a bug. MS does not sell DRM'ed music via Zune Marketplace. And it does not delete your music, unless yo request it. The only DRM is in subscription, which is fine.
This award should show the product should have at least a 5 million dollar liabality maluse insurance policy in effect before purchasing the product.
Messing with high risk stuff without proper insurance is now a factor for not buying CD's.
Music is too risky to have in the house. If miss-used by anyone, it could be a problem.
The truth shall set you free!
Now that you know, and now that it's clear, you can return both your kindle and your iPhone for a full refund (not to mention, all the ebooks and the music you've lost -- or are about to lose). Let us know how it goes.
Last I checked; all the music in the Zune Marketplace is DRM free. At least the last 50 or so I've downloaded.
She purchased nothing. That money was a donation to their DRM department, and it was appreciated. This is why she wasn't fined $2M.
Seriously, if there is even the slightest possibility of them disabling the content AT ALL at any time after purchase, then you aren't buying it anymore, you're renting it. And if you're renting it, it should cost no more than a few cents. Pay full price for something that could very well stop working before you're finished with it just because the publishers are, you're far better off just getting the pirated version. Save yourself the trouble and frustration. Yes, it's true a few people do get fined disproportionate amounts with numbers that the lawyers pull out of their arses, but every single one of them gets published and the case publically ridiculed, and if that didn't happen, there wouldn't be so many publishers and content creators actively turning their backs on DRM and calling it the mistake that it is.
You know what they should do? Give Obama a Zune - in one year, DRM will be illegal.
With regards to DRM, I believe that most (all?) of the music on iTMS is now available as unencrypted AAC files (Apples calls them "iTunes Plus" files). I've bought a small number of them as a test, and was able to easily transcode them to other formats (mp3 and ogg vorbis). So, in that regard, Apple is leading the way in giving customers music which isn't encumbered with DRM.
Given that, I don't think it's reallly appropriate, at this point, to lump Apple in with MS and Sony.
I find a shredder will rip the discs into the proper number of pieces. No matter how much you like the band, you can't enjoy their music on your terms...so don't.
You do know that bought music can be burned to a cd so the first thing you should have done is backed it up then there would be no reason to bitch about DRM. There is way too much about this. Buy MP3 on the Zune store if it bugs you. I would really like for someone to explain to me why it is so hard to buy a DRM'd cd and burn it to real media that can be ripped at your leisure. Digital products are fine, i love getting things instantly on the fly, but i am also smart enough to know for 5 minutes of my time i can create a hard copy to file away. Any software you buy digitally you can't guarantee the company will be around forever to let you redownload the software. Blank media costs pennies these days and external hard drives are cheap as well. I know in the case of music if the server is turned off or the label pulls the track you are sol even if you have a digital backup that it would need to authenticate to.
It's just money wasted trying to enforce a failing business model... money that could be used to improve the business model, instead: it is money wasted. If I had a great business, I would invest the profits into improving my business model to better serve my customers, not waste money trying to enforce a failing business model that has absolutely no benefit to my customers. Their customers at best don't care about DRM and at worst are annoyed by it. The people who don't pay for their content aren't your customers and they are not likely to become your customers even if you put annoying stuff all over your product.
This seems like common sense, but the big content distributors all fail at it because they are out of touch with their customers.
>It's no different than putting 3 pints of product into a bottle marked as 2 quarts.
OK, be fair, it's a LITTLE different than that...
OK, it's like selling an endless supply of milk for life but only providing 3 pints.
I'm so cool! I'm so fashionable! I'm so hip! I'm so tech savvy! I don't buy those overpriced stone age CDs. Who needs to have their music on a permanent physical backup that can potentially last for decades and that can be ripped as many times as I need to as many devices as I buy? That's for Luddites and old farts.
I prefer the ultracoolness of buying everything online with proprietary DRM that limits how many times I can download and to what devices, and that can disappear at any moment leaving me with megabytes of encrypted junk.
Wanna see my cool tatts?
If there's anyone who got DRM "right", it's Valve. The only thing you just have to worry about is your account doesn't get stolen or spoofed. Otherwise, you can download anywhere you want, any time you want, on anything you want.
Direct2Drive comes in at a close second, but it's basically downloading an ISO of the game itself. So if the retail box had DRM, Direct2Drive has DRM. Steam doesn't.
Don't suppose it matters to anyone that tracks purchased from Zune are typically in unprotected MP3 format, does it? No, takes the fun out of it, so carry on.
(the subscription stuff is protected.)
I don't mind the Kindle DRM for three reasons
1) I don't usually re-read books. Not sure why, but I don't. Maybe when I turn 50 this will change, but in 10 years this will all look very different anyway.
2) The convenience and time savings of Amazon's "store" is worth the devaluation of the product caused by the DRM. I'm paying up to $8 per book not to have to go to Barnes and Noble, and I'm okay with that. I get new books the day they come out. I'm saving ink, paper, boxes, and fuel, not to mention space in my apartment and the municipal landfill.
3) I honestly think it will be broken before it becomes a pain in the ass.
But I'm extremely disturbed by hidden download limits. They clearly stated that they would keep your purchases on their servers so that you could restore them to the device at any time. Devices crash, break, get stolen, and get upgraded. The ability to always go back to Amazon for a fresh copy is a great feature, and one that really helps offset the value removed by DRM _at very little extra charge to Amazon_.
That's what doesn't add up: why would they risk lawsuits and alienate their core customers over something which costs them virtually nothing?
True. I'm just saying that they provided the product, a digital file with content of some sort, as advertised. How does the fact it is digital content as opposed to physical increase the vendor's obligation to the buyer? Certainly it might be easy for them to do this, but why would you expect a corporation to provide what would effectively be a free bookshelf in perpetuity to anyone? (Remember the unspoken corporation motto: There is no such thing as enough profit.)