Slashdot Mirror
One Year Later, "Dead" XP Still Going Strong
snydeq writes "Microsoft pulled the plug on Windows XP a year ago today, no longer selling new copies in most venues. Yet according to a report from InfoWorld, various downgrade paths to XP are keeping the operating system very much alive, particularly among businesses. In fact, despite Microsoft trumpeting Vista as the most successful version of Windows ever sold, more than half of business PCs have subsequently downgraded Vista-based machines to XP, according to data provided by community-based performance-monitoring network of PCs. Microsoft recently planned to further limit the ability to downgrade to XP now that Windows 7 is in the pipeline, but backlash against the licensing scheme prompted the company to change course, extending downgrade rights on new PCs from April 2010 to April 2011."
This trend will stop when Windows 7 is introduce.
Mark it on the wall.
After we took a look at Vista, Who Knew XP would look so good? Actually XP was never "bad", and it's pretty stable considering all the garbage people install on their PCs. Although people say (in surveys) that they don't like "renting" their OS software, I (and my corporate clients) wouldn't mind at all paying a yearly fee for ongoing maintenance of XP, or, perhaps for a new 3 or 5-year license with "support". And since the Web is so good for self-support for some time now, we would just be looking for maintenance releases and security updates. And we already "rent" many of our applications, from security suites to corporate apps with support. Microsoft would benefit because they would effectively get "us" to be purchasing OS licenses just the same as if we bought Windows 7 (or whatever). The resellers would be losers of course, coz we wouldn't be buying so much new hardware, but that's not especially "our" problem. For business use, anything over 1.6 GHz (sometimes even slower!)/512MB RAM or so is just icing on the cake for XP. It runs pretty well in that minimum configuration. It would be much cheaper than a change to a new version of Windows. And it does EVERYTHING we need, doesn't it? ARE YOU LISTENING, MICROSOFT?
Naturally businesses do not want to migrate to a more expensive OS. XP works.
Clearly, Microsoft used worcestershire sauce as an embalming fluid.
Down with XP!
That speaks aloud not so much about Vista's "failure". It just SCREAMS about XP success. Really.
It's time to realise that Abble's products are the biggest abomination these days. Just say NO to the dumb iAbble way!!
I've been defending Vista for some time now since it worked just fine on my laptop. Now, however some sort of incompatibility between Vista, Firefox and Zone Alarm keeps freezing my browser. It's not happening on my XP systems. And suddenly, within the past couple of weeks, even IE is freezing. So I'm building a new system for my wife and be sure that I'm going with XP.
... I upgraded to vista on my gaming box (for dx10 and to experiment with it) but on my main box there would be no way for me to do that, due to several things I'm using not having drivers for vista at all (or only for vista32). I guess we'll see how things are with windows 7, if the virtual XP included is going to be able to run XP drivers directly then maybe I would consider upgrading, but I kind of doubt that is likely as if you allowed the virtual box direct access to the hardware then it would be easy for it to bring down the whole system.
-- the cake is a lie
The reason why XP is still strong, honestly, is because people are morons and they are cheap.
"the most successful version of windows ever sold"
sold (or really licensed) != used
The user base is never the same size as sales or downloads.
Developers: We can use your help.
XP dead? I think even netcraft confirms it isn't, despite what Microsoft would like. The latest advertisement from the local Microcenter is covered left and right in computers that are listed as being "downgradeable" to Windows XP. This is obviously something people and businesses want or need.
Can we do away with the "XP still alive" stories? At this point "everyone" knows that people are going to continue using XP for as long as possible. The other people with Software Assurance or other Microsoft volume licensing programs are going to stay on XP just until they can plan a migration to Windows 7. A small minority will finally make the shift to Linux, and a couple people will slurp up the Jobs flavored Kool-Aid and justify spending significant amounts of money to be locked into a completely proprietary hardware/software "solution".
I think he is biased (and hypocritical), loud, and annoying. I do not think he is funny nor intelligent.
However, I find your criticism to be lacking for various reasons.
XP is going to die rather quickly once one or more of the following happen: 2.5TB or bigger hard disks drop below $100 (no GUID partition table support in XP), applications make good use of more than 4GB RAM (XP64 driver support "could be better"), USB3 devices become available in mass quantities (no USB3 support in XP), IPv4 addresses run out and major ISPs offer IPv6 access (IPv6 support in XP is incomplete and lacks a UI), Duke Nukem Forever is released for Windows 7 only.
(everyone who Knows Better will know I'm talking about most users, IT shops, etc - not the technical "merits")
Microsoft is finally getting bit by cultivating and preying on the culture of Good Enough. XP supports current hardware, runs current apps, ISVs are still writing for it. Users are comfortable with it, it handles games well (hey, check out the number of Big Name Games that require DX10), and while it's a security nightmare, most competent shops know enough to be able to keep their machines STD-free.
Vista is a host of new problems, support issues, and sucks on the same hardware XP zips on. Windows 7 isn't officially out yet... and when it is, most IT shops are going to wait. They'll poke it with a stick, sniff it like a dog, and rather it's a genuine improvement or not, they're not going to hop on it until they have to.
XP is the new BSD. It'll be "dying" for the next five to ten years. It's going to take a massive paradigm shift* in computing to get rid of it.
* I don't mean quad cores or eight-way cores or 64 gigs of ram for a nickel. I mean something equivalent to a massive rendering farm running an OS with a pile of APIs that'll securely handle every windows (and mac, while we're fantasizing) application ever written, with a battery life measured in decades. Said hardware would be the size of an iPhone, even easier to use, and you'd be able to buy them in vending machines at bus stations for $1.25. I mean that kind of paradigm shift.
... a massive "Thank-you, you dumb bastards."
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
In fact, despite Microsoft trumpeting Vista as the most successful version of Windows ever sold, more than half of business PCs have subsequently downgraded Vista-based machines to XP, according to data provided by community-based performance-monitoring network of PCs.
That's not necessarily mutually exclusive. There have always been a substantial number of businesses which don't see a compelling reason to upgrade when a new version of Windows comes out. 85% of those machines are used primarily for word processing, after all, something which has been "good enough" for a couple of decades. I worked for a company which was still happily using Windows for Workgroups in 2001. Add the people who always wait for Service Pack 2 and you're at a pretty big percentage of the market.
They said that OS/2 was dead LONG before it actually was! Some still think it's not (see eComStation). Unfortunately, those folks are incorrect.
Vista is not worth the cash. OSX is $129 when Vista is $300+ thats a giant WTF since OSX is so much better.
On my non-mac PCs I run Linux because it gets the job done. My mac hardware runs OSX (obviously) with a vmware-windowxp. I would upgrade my vmware image to vista if vista was reasonably priced.
According to unofficial sources, the planned "End of Life" for Windows XP will be in December 21 of 2012.
With Linux, I know I can still go download updates for some ridiculously old distribution like Fedora Core 3 and that it will still work. It will never be sunset and I'll always be able to download it. Killing off an operating system when it's no longer profitable to keep it alive, despite the concerns of customers, is a reason why community-developed open source software is better.
Forget regular XP, forget Vista, forget 7, heck even forget the Linux. Windows FLP is the stripped down version you want. Doesn't even require a Genuine Advantage check.
Psh - I've been using 2k Pro since it was released. Nine years later I'm just beginning to find a few things here and there that simply refuse to play nice with it (some online streaming video, the latest version of iTunes). It's so solid I could probably count the number of times it's crashed on me with one hand.
I'm about ready to upgrade, but since I can't get XP I guess I'll just wait for 7 and hope it lasts another 10 years.
A couple of months ago, my brother has his XP installation is such a bad shape that I had to come over to fix it. While we were walking on the street we started discussing about XP vs. Vista and how much Vista sucks.
After a few minutes a random stranger on the street barges in on the discussion how much Vista really sucked. Yes people, a total stranger chipped in on a discussion to say his opinion on Vista. It simply sucks that much.
Windows 7 will probably be a lot better since it is pretty much impossible to do worse. Vista simply feels like a big step back. It's hard to really describe the flaws of Vista but using it simply feels so annoying.
Personally, I am wondering. What the hell is wrong with Vista? I know it sucks since I suffer using it but it simply feels so hard to describe. What made Vista suck?
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power lost.
I can name you one area of computing that actually does better with Vista: 64 bit audio recording. That's right. When it comes to professional audio, there is more support for 64 bit Vista than for 64 bit XP. There are more drivers, more plugins, more apps that run on Vista64 than XP64. I myself am about to reinstall Vista64 for this exact reason.
I have one token XP box at home and installed Vista Business on our fire station computer and, after working with it for a while, my honest opinion is that Vista sucks major donkey balls. I understand anyone not wanting to install or support it. It's not just that XP is more familiar, it's that it works better. I've never done anything but the simplest tasks without a "you sure you want to do this?" pop up in Vista. Massively annoying.
If Linux worked like Vista it would be the laughing stock of the computer world. Yet Microsoft trumpets Vista like it's some kind of victory for them.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Sometimes I wonder how much of the resistance to the new Microsoft OSes is XP being good or the OS being bad.
The truth is, computers are still a relatively recent thing; this is the first major, major OS change in a world largely dependent on the well-being of its various corporate networks; the only similar major transition I can think of is OS 9 to OS X, but Macs weren't (and aren't) as widespread in corporate, industrial, or small business environments.
So how much of this resistance to change is due to the fact that we've never dealt with this kind of major change before in such a massive environment (and don't have the infrastructure to deal with it well), and how much of it is just people clinging to XP?
http://www.tenjou.net/
Maybe this is a backlash against being milked by the upgrade gravy train.
I've used Vista for a short while and also some users (bought new PCs preloaded).
I, as the support person, hated it because it took me longer to find my way around it. It is not intuitive for people used to where MS used to place things. I'd say it was similar to going from OS9 to OSX in Mac userland. After a handful to users buying into Vista and then coming to lots of problems in terms of figuring out how to use it, I started recommending downgrades for their and mine sanity's sake.
Then I landed a corporate job, and our policy (I set my own, with advice from HQ in the UK) is to stick with XP. My primary reason is that my users are mostly set in their ways, and Vista from UI perspective will be a disaster. The other reason in that some legacy apps will probably cause problems to run. They even cause problems in XP.
So, when I order a PC from Dell, I always specify XP as the OS. It comes pre-installed.
On a side note, I also downgrade Office 2007 to 2003 Pro, again for usability reasons. I have Select Licenses, so I am "legally" entitled to.
Long live XP.
Why is it that M$ can simply put out an OS with a new face and a couple of new features and sell it as a new product, yet no one wonders about how they are being limited to their freedom of choice by their obvious attempt to control the market with crap and make you happy to pay for it. I think it's funny watching the monkeys pay for crap they already paid for and love paying way over it's value for it. M$ research is paid by the users who complain their asses off and still use their crap, they exploit the idiots who don't understand technology, and they progress through feeding off other company's devolpments and buying it through the above exploits. If you ask me, I'm happy MS sucks ass and idiots pay for their crap, it keeps proving that real programmers and technology enthusiests know more than multi billion dollar companies and their feeble attempts to pretend they know technology and how it works with people. Perhaps if M$ charged and made money other than from simply forcing us to use techology due to their foothold in the market and started putting out what worked and allowing individuals to improve on the techologies, we could truely say they are a proper and fair monopoly who is really looking out for the people and making things work.
Just put it out there, if your wrong... you learn, if your right, others learn.
I have a guilty confession to make: I just installed Windows XP this month, after so many years of staunchly rejecting it. I bought Windows 2000 on the day XP was launched, as a protest. I wonder if anyone reading this now even remembers the big issue with XP? Millions of people have already adopted Vista now, even those people who might have griped at first. At least I managed to carry on for a decade! (I didn't do it so much for myself as to please a friend, who wants us to play a game that only runs in XP, not 2000.)
I'm putting my foot down this time, though! It's my last Windows upgrade, period... seriously! No, really! Next time it'll be Linux with a wine chaser.
Due to high customer demand, the right to downgrade 1 to 0 was also continued.
And in case you need it, Windows 111 base 2 will be a free downgrade to Windows 000.
Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
"No. Rather than charging you peanuts for maintenance service, we really much rather continue to charge you a large sum of money for the privilege of beta testing our code, then phase it out when it has some resemblance to a release product. Let's be perfectly honest here, when your data is on the line running out pre-release code passed off as released product, you're more likely to pay us large sum of money to ensure the continued existence of your data. AFTER ALL, WE'RE THE ONLY (viable) GAME IN TOWN."
people will still run Windows XP Pro in Virtual Machines just to run "legacy software" that does not run on Windows Vista, Windows 7.0, etc.
VirtualBox by Sun just reached version 3.0.0 and supports Windows XP, Vista, and 7.0 as both host and guest operating systems. It can even run DOS virtual machines, but has no addons support for DOS.
For DOS support most people just use DOSBox but it has no printing support. For example Wordperfect 5.1 for DOS runs in it, but since it has no printer support, just select Postscript for a printer and then use Ghostscript or some other Postscript program to drop the Postscript data file on to print it out. After Microsoft went to the Windows NT and up and left the Windows 9X platform, it broke a lot of DOS applications. DOSBox is cool, as it even supports Tandy 1000 standards so that means those DOS video games that selected CGA or Tandy graphics can be played in Tandy mode. That was before EGA and then later VGA was invented.
Retrocomputing is more than just a fad, for some that have "legacy software" issues they have to use older hardware and older operating systems, or run older operating systems in virtual machines and/or emulators.
The cost of upgrading "legacy software" to Windows Vista or even Windows 7.0 standards is too high and too difficult for most software companies, plus Windows Vista broke a lot of software development tools including some old versions of Visual Studio as recent as 2002 or 2003. There is a lot of software that businesses need, that cannot be converted to run on Vista or 7.0, which is why Microsoft has that XP Virtual Machine, but they futzed up the XP Virtual machine and it is not 100% XP compatible. So I am guessing virtual machines like VirtualBox, VMWare, etc will be used to run XP in a virtual machine for better compatibility.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Q to you all: Can I still activate new XP installation?
- I haven't even tried, been happy with them (servers) running Linux OS since day 1
I got few servers some years ago with XP Pro license sticker on them (that doesn't have any expiration date)
- NOTE: these licenses have never been activated.
So, when would be the last date (or was it already?) to activate already purchased and paid licenses?
- if it was already, can I ask for refund?
Try Firefox. Try OpenOffice. Try Amarok. Those are just three examples.
Trust me, I've tried (Damn Pepper Pad 3).
I'll believe it when netcraft confirms it.
Reactos may actually catch up providing a suitable replacement
If you observe the stats collected in this page of the article, one will see that Lenovo and Dell machines constitute a very high percentage of downgrades. However, the other manufacturers are starkly lower in comparison.
I can't help but believe that this is because Dell and Lenovo are the main suppliers of business laptops in the United States. It's a well-known fact that businesses are super slow at transitioning to new versions of anything significant, especially operating systems. If one is going to make this sensational claim, people in the server community might as well bicker about how adoption to Server 2008 is as slow as molasses right now.
This will naturally slow once Windows 7 comes to the forefront, but considering how the release dates between the two are so close (Vista came out in 2007, 7 is coming out late this year or next year) and how vastly improved 7 is to Vista, there's no net benefit for businesses to adopt to Vista on user machines.
It's not like this is new information; it's always been like this. The big difference is that Microsoft is now suffering from taking so goddamn long to release a "meh" operating system and then release the awesome so soon afterwards.
Screw Windows 7. It might be nice,... but.....
Virtualbox 3.0.0 just got released from Sun, which enables experimental OpenGL and DirectX inside the virtual machine.
If this version makes it into the next Ubuntu, I'll be quote happily playing all my games inside a virtual system.
Linux, here I come.
I still install Windows XP everywhere.... Generally 64bit edition.
I've played with Windows 7 RC quite a bit on a lot of hardware, however:
1. It still has quite a few quirky bugs
2. It has plenty of compatibility issues. (Running their free XP in a VM fixes that..)
3. Windows 7 is nothing more than Vista SP2 + new theme.
4. Windows 7 is still dog slow compared to XP.
At the end of the day, Windows XP is not only champ, but the BEST windows release EVER.
The sad part is, is Microsoft refuses to sell XP. That just encourages its piracy. If they refuse to sell the customer what they want, the customer just finds alternate ways to get it.
We do not fucking want Vista, and giving it a new theme (aka 7) and marketting it as something new is no better.
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
The bugs have extended to 2008 server as well. I've had instances where I (logged in as an admin) could not modify the permissions on the root of a drive - even though UAC was disabled.
The fix is temporarily enabling UAC, setting the drive permissions, and then re-disabling UAC.
UAC is a piece of shit, and it even gets in your way when it is DISABLED.
That's a bug.
-ted
Upgrade people ! XP is a great OS. Windows 7 64 bit supporting over 4gb of ram running on a brand new Solid State Disk (5x faster). It feels like the future is meant to feel !!!!!
I used to love XP.
Not anymore.
Once i installed Windows 7, i have no intention of going back to stupid XP.
Windows 7 for me is more stable, faster and less crashing.
Benefits:
1) Windows 7 installs faster and less intrusive than XP.
2) Windows 7 networking is far more advanced than the usual XP crap.
3) Display drivers crash do not cause a BSOD. Hell my nvidia beta driver crashed when i was running CoH:ToV. Windows 7 quietly told me the situation, restarted the driver and asked me if i wanted to roll back to previous version. I did.
4) Windows 7 is faster than XP in many ways. Multitasking, file operations, USB access, etc., all are much faster.
5) Device Manager shoots XP out of the water. I can pin point exact problems, roll back only those that are needed, and more.
For me, Windows 7 is a god-send. I haven't used Vista, but i love Windows 7 and would definitely pay good money for this.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
People are buying vista, and then buying XP. Poor microsoft? Guess they'll never do that again?
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
When people want XP you give it to them. People demand a product you produce the supply.
When the company that controls the main product is a monopoly the goal is to keep soaking you for everything.
You don't need Vista. You don't even need Win7. In fact, there is absolutely no need for either, nor is there a need for XP. 90% of the people do 99% of the same things. Those things can be performed by Linux.
Stop dictating that the people using computers have to upgrade to a specific product. Let them use what they want.
This is so stupid that it even happens. It is just so incredibly insane. We've gotta end this somehow. End the monopoly and people will have free choice again. There's no benefit to Microsoft's monopoly. It isn't benefiting society in any way.
You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
I may have mis-worded that. 24 bit depth is still the standard for full dynamic range. This has nothing to do with how the application uses word lengths. Sonar64 running in Vista64 will run better than Sonar32. Which in turn has nothing to do with internal processing in a DAW. For example Reaper has 64 bit internal processing, even in the 32 bit version. Confusing? It can be.
32-bit games can expect a performance boost in 64-bit OS. Because more RAM is betterer
"2) Windows 7 networking is far more advanced than the usual XP crap." - by freedom_india (780002) on Tuesday June 30, @10:41PM (#28537951) Homepage
Are you aware of this -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1206409&cid=27661983
?
AND, if so, on the HOSTS file bloat being caused by MS now in VISTA onwards (as well as the older 3-part "greek phalanx/zone defense" door lock (tcpip.sys + ipnat.sys), chain lock (Ipfltdrv.sys), & deadbolt lock (ipsec.sys) model of networking defense being 'phased-out' for a SINGLE PART ONLY "WFP" model) issues I noted therein...??
Thanks!
APK
P.S.=> I haven't gotten a WHY from MS even, 3x now asking them, even in their "Engineering Windows" blog last I looked... maybe you, or someone here, has an answer that sounds LOGICAL & SECURITY SOLID ENOUGH, to make sense (as well as promoting bloat in a HOSTS file)... apk
In Vista, Direct 3D 5.1 Sound doesn't work anymore because they removed it to make their DRM stuff work (maybe you could rip 5.1 if it was still available?). After playing computer games with a 5.1 system for some time, I don't really want to go back to 2.1, but older (+1 year, I don't have anything newer) games very rarely support OpenAL. Are newer games (i.e. not HL2, not Portal, not TF2...) generally better at supporting OpenAL, or do you only play in stereo?
wanders through the street with a bell...
XPCollector: "ring ring ring, bring out your corpses..."
Marketing, and intentionally so. "Oh look, we have Windows 7 now, and while it's essentially XP with pretty colors, it Sucks Less Than Vista"
It's unlikely that any large firm will fully switch to Windows 7 in the first 5 years of its lifetime.
There remains no compelling reason to upgrade to Windows 7. XP will be around for a good few years yet.
Huh? Do you honestly believe Microsoft will ever go another 5 years without a version overhaul? They're in the business of selling you a new version of the operating system every 2 years. They've learned that XP was bad for business (the extraordinary lifespan of XP harmed Vista more than Vista's lack of quality).
5 years = dead. If you wait that long to upgrade, you might as well NEVER upgrade. You can bet your britches that they'll be dogfooding Windows 8 at Microsoft before Windows 7's first service pack is released.
I don't know any other as powerful way to direct consumers than to offer them easier access to free porn. Of that they aren't ignorant.
As Symbian UIQ died going chapter 11, Sony Ericsson mysteriously stopped offering application and firmware updates for UIQ handsets like P1i.
So while browsing Windows 7 MS forums, I found a desperate owner of P1i like me looking for a way to sync/backup his phone under Windows 7. I simply suggested getting ''XP mode'' from MS as the application and drivers he tries to run will not just work, they will also effect stability of OS.
What I mean is, XP will stay there almost forever because of reasons like these. Oh BTW, a MS engineer marked his own answer which is basically as template making no sense (contact vendor for update) as ''answer'' to the issue. They get bonus from these? Ballmer should check.
NN
Mod Parent Up...so I can say I wasted two modpoints today :) :) :D
Suckkkkkkaaaaaa
Any freshly installed Windows PC will run faster than the one that has been around for couple of months. And it is not simply a matter of fragmentation, it's also registry clutter, pre-fetch, the fact that Windows records what executables you use the most and it computes optimal disk layout based on that etc, shuffling stuff around on disk, slowing other things, performance degradation that comes when you have lots of files in a folder etc.
In general I have not noticed this kind of slowdown with OS X. I have been running my OS X installation for year and a half now, and I have not noticed any slowdown. I find OS X and Linux to be much more resilient to user using it.
As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
I tried Windows 7, it was supposed to work on my machine and it did, assuming that I never wanted to listen to any sounds or connect to the Internet. The drivers do not exist for my WiFi or on board sound. Other than those two faults it ran flawlessly. I'll keep XP until I have to upgrade, I was the same with Win98SE as well.
Calvin:Do you believe in the devil? Hobbes:I'm not sure man needs the help.
I just got my desktop back up and running after being dead for half a year. Burnt a Win7 RC1 disc on my laptop and went to install on the desktop since I planned on getting Win7 anyways. Turns out Win7 hates my DVD drive (Samsung SH-M522C). Updated the firmware on the drive, still hates it. Guess I'll have to wait until I can get a new DVD drive... pisses me off because I loved Win7 on my laptop. It ran so much smoother than Vista, and now I'm used to all the UI tweaks :(
I installed the Windows 7 RC on my 2 year old gaming desktop. Noted: I skipped Vista on my home machines. These are my observations of 7.
1.) The system boots faster with identical applications loaded
2.) The interface is much snappier in day to day operations - the layout of menus, shortcuts, drives, and peripherals is more intuitive. *Can't give enough praise for the recent files used under each program (big time saver).
3.) Programs load quicker than XP and use of programs feels snappier.
4.) The Task Bar is what it always should have been. The new changes are extremely useful in day to day usage. I especially like the preview box of open windows in groups while pinned.
5.) Windows Explorer is light years ahead of XP. File management is so much easier now.
6.) USB support feels better. I'm getting higher reads/writes off existing usb keys/hard disk drives.
7.) The interface is nicer looking - I feel like I'm using a modern computer system. I really like the auto size when dragging windows to the side of the screen or top.
8.) No crashing or lockups as of yet. The RC has been rock solid (I wish I had been able to test the beta, people say it was even quicker).
Microsoft sold me on Windows 7. I purchased two copies of the upgrade to home premium for $49 each. I don't know why people say it's outrageous for the OS. I'm not sure you're using the same Windows 7 I am, but it's worth every penny MS is asking.
Noted: I'm an avid Ubuntu user as well.
My problem with Vista was mainly to do with the new UI. I found it cluttered and confining, with fiddly little details that frankly made my skin crawl (those little triangles next to folders M$ nicked from the Mac), and these are still evident in Win7; however I find Win7 far less claustrophobic. I like XP's Classic theme, which gives me the feeling of a nice, open space with no funky pictures or "helpful" UI tricks like exploding menus or windows fading in and out.
Those UI novelties, like sound schemes which spit Simpsons sound bites when you minimize windows, are cute for about five minutes then get really old really fast. I already saw XP as a feature-creeped version of Win2000, but Vista/Win7 are OTT in that regard.
Who is this delectable creature with an insatiable love of the dead?
Service packs are not crap, but the others very well could be.
Drivers - Big culprit, you have to jump through hoops to get JUST THE DRIVERS these days. For gaming video cards you could understand the need for an app to help configure it, but modems and sound cards? They all come bundled with run-on-startup crapware and registration nagware. Usually avoidable or fixable, but this isn't obvious to the average Joe. HP installs a rich ecosystem of crapware on a system along with the printer drivers. You can find driver-only packages on their website.
Office suites - both MS office and OO.org come with quickstarters that simply chuck hunks of the suite into RAM to help speed up launch times. Startup time++, available RAM--, paging++, but ooh it launches 3 seconds faster the first time you run it, YAY! Also Adobe Reader is a big culprit here - any PDF reader that comes with a quickstarter is way too big, designed by a jackass or both. Plus Adobe Reader loads plugins for your browser and some email clients. Weeee!
Compression programs - these usually aren't bad, although back when I last used WinZip it ran some apps on startup. You're safe with 7-Zip.
Media codecs - another big culprit, they often come with startup apps you don't need, their own little media players and drop a metric shitload of DLLs all over the place. I only install codecs (and just the codecs) if the system will be used for video editing, otherwise I use VLC - problem solved.
CD-burning software: Roxio is the only nasty one I know of, but I haven't used anything besides Infrarecorder on Windows in years.
iTunes and Quicktime are horrendous bloatware, this is Apple's fault. It wouldn't be such a problem if you manually pruned out the unnecessary startup entries but I'd definitely suggest using something else to get songs on your iPod.
If you don't play games on your PC consider installing Linux (Ubuntu is super easy to use) or even getting a Mac. As a general rule the only thing you *NEED* Windows for is gaming.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
If you support users on Multiple OS's is is a pain.
2000/XP find add/remove and click on it.
Vista ???? what is it called again ????
To do support you have to know what the text is labeled, what other text is around it, other icons and visual cues. Either that or you have to have 3 computers or a computer with 2 VMs.
There are plenty of people out there over the phone you cant tell to bring up the control panel and type "add" in the search box. They will be in their web browser or something looking at Bing by that point, as soon as you say "search" they will leave the control panel and go to Internet Explorer.
vi +
--
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
THAT is an excellent sig, my friend - well done.
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
GO WINDOWS98 ...GO!!!!
I have XP on my desktop and Vista on my laptop... Desktop is 2yrs old (amd64/2gb ram) and the laptop is a brand new toshiba (amdx2 64/ 3gb ram). I did a simple benchmark test running Fritz 10 benchmark (chess software that I use for position analysis). XP benchmark was 7.9 (compared to 1.0 on a p4 1ghz)... Vista was 3.4???!!!??? note that this benchmark doesn't include video etc... it benchmarks how fast the analysis runs. This shows that XP is over TWICE as fast on 2yr old slower hardware than a brand new Vista machine. After spending a whole day doing tweaks to get Vista to feel somewhat responsive, I was able to get my Fritz 10 benchmark to 3.9... Still pathetic. I certainly hope Win7 is far faster because Vista is a performance DOG for anyone running performance critical applications. This is the #1 reason why I tell people to stick with XP as long as possible.... Those who have to upgrade I recommend two different paths... if they are tech dummies, I suggest buying a Mac (something I have NEVER done before) or if they have a clue, I recommend using Linux. Ubuntu on the Vista laptop flies, yet Vista is just barely usable.
See my subject-line above, & realize, that I quoted the parent poster about Windows 7 networking, & merely enlightened them to some things I found in it, networking-wise no less (thus, I am "ON topic", not "OFF topic") that do NOT make sense for:
----
A.) Efficiency (no longer being able to use "0" as a valid blocking IP address in VISTA onwards since the 12/09/2008 patch Tuesday - now instead, being basically FORCED to utilize larger & slower up from disk/file into memory addresses like 0.0.0.0 or worse yet, 127.0.0.1...)
OR
B.) For security (by taking away the 3 level triumvirate/phalanx-like/zone defense like strategem used for IP stack protection used in Windows Server 2003 down to Windows 2000, which is 3 diff. drivers operating @ 3 diff. levels of the IP stack no less, vs. only 1 now in WFP (Windows Filtering Platform, used in VISTA/Windows Server 2008/Windows 7)... will wonders NEVER cease!
----
Guys (actually, to whoever "modded me down")?
You have to realize - I am "ON TOPIC" here, & my reply to his quoted one (which was about networking) was about networking on my part also - that all "said & aside", then, how on EARTH could you find my post "off topic" & mod-it-down as such?
BOTTOM-LINE: I would just like to know WHY both things were done!
(You see, I am FAIRLY absolutely certain I am correct on the HOSTS file issue... but, not as sure on the WFP vs. older models of Windows 3-part "greek phalanx/zone defense" door lock (tcpip.sys + ipnat.sys), chain lock (Ipfltdrv.sys), & deadbolt lock (ipsec.sys) model of networking defense, but sense tells me I am correct there too).
APK
P.S.=> You guys have to understand, OR, know by now (if you've seen me posting here before & I have since early 2005)? I am "into Windows", so, since I am? I would like to see it be ABSOLUTELY the "best it can be", on all fronts, & the ONLY way to assure that, is to ask about things I find that MAY be "problematic" or, not as good as they USED to be in older versions of this fine OS family is all... sheesh: & I get "modded down", for that, especially when I was indeed, VERY "on topic"? Guys, come on... funniest part is, that I was actually "modded up" for noting these very points here, before... odd! apk
The problem with XP, NT 4.0 and benefits of NT 3.5 and Vista is the GDI running in UserSpace versus kernel.
Up until NT 3.5 the GDI was run under user space. Hence if the driver crashed, you don't get a BSOD which signifies a kernel panic.
The reason why Windows GDI was placed in userspace was because NT 3.5 was also capable of supporting other UI like POSIX UI(which never came to be), and OS/2 UI. So theoritically you could run the NT kernel on a OS/2 GUI or even POSIX GUI if available.
With its infinite wisdom and going against the advice of Helen Custer and NT Architect, Microsoft threw the GDI into Kernel for quicker response times (official reason). The real reason was OS/2 was licked and Microsoft wanted to be a monopoly (without knowing that EU will kick its ass in future). So it threw out POSIX developments (it still remains in basic limited form to be of any real use, much like a Bank's IVR).
This brought in a rash of new problems: Driver developers were not exactly "Code Complete Quality" material. Hell, they were worse than Power Builder programmers. (all offense intended. So sue me PB programmers)
A small freemem(*) call here, a malloc(*) pointer there, and before you know, you had a memory leak, and executable code in Kernel scratching up the wall for a non-existent memory address space.
WTF was the kernel to do? Allow a badly written driver to corrupt the system more? Nope. Not even Microsoft was that stupid. So, the kernel took down the entire system with a BSOD to signify that somewhere something crashed and that the OS cannot recover unless i rebooted the system entirely.
There started the jokes about BSOD, screensavers etc.
Microsoft was tired of these jib jabs, and also since processor power had increased from 33 Mhz on a 80386 to 2048 MHz on an IA64, it started to move back the GDI to user space from kernel in Vista.
But then, this being Microsoft, it did a half-ass job anyway without talking to the driver developers.
Of course no developer worth his salt would read MSDN to know about the details of privilege de-escalation and re-escalation: that was for the n00bs. A better way to release the driver into the wild and wait for some poor unsuspecting soul to scream.... which is what exactly nvidia, ATI, Xerox, Canon and AMD did.
What they didn't realize was that users were paying customers (surprise!) and that Microsoft wielded had a bigger stick.
So all these device makers and driver makers got fcuked front and back.
Now, having experienced the pain of such fcuking by Bubba (Microsoft), they made sure their drivers were well tested for Windows 7.
Which is why Windows 7 looks nicer, works better and is more crash proof than XP.
Hell, i even upgraded by nvidia display driver yesterday without rebooting.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
"The reason why Windows GDI was placed in userspace was because NT 3.5 was also capable of supporting other UI like POSIX UI(which never came to be), and OS/2 UI. So theoritically you could run the NT kernel on a OS/2 GUI or even POSIX GUI if available." - by freedom_india (780002) on Thursday July 02, @04:06AM (#28554993) Homepage
That is only PART of the entire story/scenario - the other is that Microsoft could NOT neglect one of the biggest market segments there is in software, & that is gaming on PC's...
I.E.-> You neglected to mention that in moving the graphical interface AWAY from GDI & User32 (kernel mode/Ring 0/RPL 0 level of operation - how it was done & what level of privelege it operated under in Windows NT 4.0/2000/XP/Server 2003) for AERO in VISTA/Server 2008/Windows 7 has a performance penalty & you also missed how it was gotten around (via DirectX)...
Windows NT 3.1 - 3.51 had its display engines in usermode as you stated, which aided overall OS stability (because the display could be restarted like startx does for Linux & Ctrl-Alt-Backspace crashes/restarts X it if ones wishes iirc) but it was TOO SLOW for gaming & had message passing overheads galore... &, this is part of why DirectX came along for gaming display (&, other things it can control, which is what makes it superior to OpenGL (though I think coding OpenGL is easier/simpler than DirectX personally)).
Anyhow/anyways - By Microsoft displacing GDI + User32 (which were used in Windows NT 3.x - Windows Server 2003 by default as its display engines managers) with DirectX as the display engine for AERO GLASS (in VISTA/Server 2008/Windows 7), there is a "speed hit"... but, not THAT "huge" of one, due to DirectX.
E.G.-> Overheads of message passing occurs when passing messages from Ring 3/RPL 3 of the new AERO glass interface while it operates in usermode, but it is as "DIRECT" as possible, via DirectX, & back to Ring 0/RPL 0/kernel mode & the NT HAL & device drivers layer.!
(Which is why NT 3.x-3.51 were SLOW on gaming & a large part of WHY DirectX came about for Windows NT-based OS' - this is mainly a large part of WHY the display engine in NT 4.0 onwards was put into kernel mode & directx came along, to speed up gaming performance in older Windows NT-based OS prior to VISTA - even Microsoft, who is a business in business to make money primarily, could NOT ignore the gaming market for PC's)
SO, in summation: The "bypass"/speedup & workaround for Microsoft was to use DirectX (which is what "powers" AERO), to offset any peformance hits (as MUCH AS POSSIBLE that is, still not as fast as kernel mode driven GDI/User32, or direct hardware control as was seen in say, DOS) that are incurred while the display operates under usermode/ring3/rpl 3 privelege levels in VISTA/Server 2008/Windows 7...
(David Cutler, the architect of NT, was rumored to have threatened to QUIT Microsoft because of the movement of NT 3.x-3.51 display engines OUT of usermode space & into kernelmode space for NT 4.0 onwards (until VISTA), because of his feeling it would create an unstable OS environs IF display was moved out of usermode/Ring 3/RPL 3 operations, & into kernelmode/Ring 0/RPL 0... thank goodness for the DDK from MS & its templates for stable base operations driver makers can build on, + the WHQL model for driver testing by MS, eh?)
Other than that? VERY accurate & complete "history" of display engine methods & how they work(ed) in Windows NT-based OS over time...
APK
P.S.=> I have to ask YOU a question: Was it YOU that "modded me down" as "off topic" here -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1287729&cid=28553361 ?
(It was your post, after all, which I responded to, & thus I must ask)
See, there, I quoted your statement on networking in Wi
See subject-line above, because whomever "modded me down" is a coward imo, & obviously too weak to debate this @ a technical level.
I say that, simply because I invite ANYONE to dispute the facts I put out (mainly because I invite debate on it, that might even prove me wrong, so I can be even more sure, either way, of what I wrote in my post which was initially modded down)...
However, getting a "mod-down" for being off-topic, & via a reply that IS "on topic" based on what I quoted from the parent poster? Please... give us a break!
APK
Again, see my subject-line, & facts ARE facts!
Most of all, though? Hey - if a "mod-down" for "off-topic" is the best you have, vs. solid facts that I posted in direct response to what I quoted from the parent poster??
Then you have only defeated yourself for me, whoever you are (coward)!
(Yes - that's to whoever modded me down here, directly, because unlike they (cowards)? I will face detractors, directly - most unlike a lot of the "not men" whom I see online & yes, in real life as well...)
LMAO - funniest part is? I was responding, once again, very MUCH "on topic" in response to the poster FreedomIndia (who was speaking of display paradigms on various members of the Windows NT-based OS family from Microsoft)...
All I got here -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1287729&cid=28556345 & here -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1287729&cid=28539111 & here -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1287729&cid=28553361 were "mod downs" as "off-topic" & in this very thread's exchanges, & my replies?
Hey - face it: They ARE "on topic" & in direct response to quoted points from FreedomIndia.
APK
P.S.=> People: If an unjustified "mod down" that is way, Way, WAY "off base" is all you have? Thanks - you only defeated yourself for me... so, keep blowing your mod points on totally unjustified mod downs (a fool & his money etc. et al)...
Because in the end, after all - All you're doing is attracting people to read what I wrote, & when they do? They'll realize that whoever did the modding down that was totally off base is nothing but another "not man online"... unable to face facts! apk
See my subject-line above, to whoever is down modding me unjustifiably no less, & realize 1 thing:
ALL you're doing is attracting people to read what I wrote!
ALL, via your unjustified "mod-down" too!
(Once folks read what I wrote in direct on topic response to those I quoted here? They'll realize you're just another fool blowing his mod points on unjustified mod downs, who by the very act of doing so, only defeats himself on many levels (by not debating facts IF they disgreed w/ that which I wrote, AND, by blowing away their "easily trackable registered user" mod points as well)).
Thanks!
APK
I use and recommend the free version of Foxit reader.
"Calm down. You are taking this seriously." - by freedom_india (780002) on Thursday July 02, @02:02PM (#28561095) Homepage
I'm not upset @ all, you have me wrong - I am actually QUITE AMUSED @ whoever is doing this to my posts (note the "lol"'s & the like, & the fact that whoever is doing so is clearly a TRUE "anonymous coward", & blowing their mod points is all...)
"To reiterate again, slashdot doesn't permit me to post AND mod in same discussion. So i didn't mod you down." - by freedom_india (780002) on Thursday July 02, @02:02PM (#28561095) Homepage
I take you @ your word, & I do believe you. You don't seem the type to do that kind of thing from reading your other postings is why I state this...
"Secondly it is ironical now: Iam posting from Safe Mode under WIndows 7 64-bit because the latest nVidia driver screwed up my system badly." - by freedom_india (780002) on Thursday July 02, @02:02PM (#28561095) Homepage
That's too bad, & I do feel for you - but, NVidia (good choice, I favor their vidcards also) has a GREAT drivers team, so rest assured, it will be up to snuff in no time (heh, hopefully)...
Personally speaking though, on what you've noted: Well - I don't "do 64-bit" here @ home @ least & to be blunt about it? I have NOTHING that even remotely comes close to using that much memory address space!
(Even though I have been a dev. MOSTLY in the MIS/IS/IT realm, the most I ever brought home was a few hundred mb sized datasets randomly selected from the whole (which WAS into the terabytes ranges many times, mostly from insurance & financial environs I had worked in over time on contracts))...
In any event, I hope it works out for you soon, it should, & thanks for the reply!
APK
P.S.=> So, since it was not this gent FreedomIndia? I wonder WHO the TRUE "anonymous coward NOT MAN" is who is modding me down...? Of course, rats like this do NOT show their faces, else they would only get destroyed in a face-to-face/mano-a-mano when facts are the issue @ hand, so - too bad that is their nature, to hide like puny fleas, because I LOVE SHOWING UP THE TYPES I CALL "THE NOT MEN" online! apk
See my subject-line above, & since I know it's not Freedom_India doing the "down mods", per this discussion -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1287729&cid=28561769 ?
Well, I have another "internet psycho-stalker" type troll to add to my fanclub of them... aren't I special? Lmao...
Still - Actually? Yes, I have to thank this troll though, because all he is doing is blowing his mod points, & attracting others to my postings (which are, indisputable facts, & that's it - the 1 thing that anonymous down modding trolls that can't show their faces can't deal with, truth... always works!).
APK
P.S.=> Perhaps I expect too much from "not men" true "anonymous cowards", but then again, it is EASY to manipulate them into blowing their mod points, & even better watching them not appear to face me, where facts will come into play (of which they have no mastery of apparently, else why "lurk in the shadows" like cowards? LMAO! Not men, they're the same, everywhere - laughable!) apk
http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1287729&cid=28563013
That about sums it up, & all the effort + fact I needed to expend to get you to keep blowing your mod points with... I love it!
APK
P.S.=> Keep blowing those mod points, pretty soon you won't have any, & you'll have to face me instead, where facts will come into play - now THAT ought to be fun & that's where I never lose! apk
Well, so far, you've wasted 10 moderation points...
"KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK", lmao...
(Ah... hilarious! Soon enough? Well, you won't have anymore mod points, & then? THEN, you'll have to face me directly, & I am a PATIENT person... though, admittedly? I can't wait to face this "anonymous troll" directly (of course, that'll never happen - weasels are "not men", & don't face people directly anyhow - so keep blowing those mod points, I get a great joy taking them from you - lol!))
Now, IF you're hoping to make me hit the "A/C 10 posts per 24 hour limit"? LOL, watch me beat that, with ease... I have been for years here!
APK
P.S.=> Thank you, sincerely, for being so foolish in blowing all your mod points on "lil' ole me", because sooner or later? You'll run out of them, & then?? No more of this unjustified modding down of my posts, lol... I can afford to wait, & be patient, until that happens! apk
Well, so far, you've wasted 10 moderation points...
"KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK", lmao...
(Ah... hilarious! Soon enough? Well - then, you won't have anymore mod points, & then? THEN, you'll have to face me directly, & I am a PATIENT person... though, admittedly? I can't wait to face this "anonymous troll" directly (of course, that'll never happen - weasels are "not men", & don't face people directly anyhow - so keep blowing those mod points, I get a great joy taking them from you - lol!))
Now, IF you're hoping to make me hit the "A/C 10 posts per 24 hour limit"? LOL, watch me beat that, with ease... I have been for years here!
APK
P.S.=> Thank you, sincerely, for being so foolish in blowing all your mod points on "lil' ole me", because sooner or later? You'll run out of them, & then?? No more of this unjustified modding down of my posts, lol... I can afford to wait, & be patient, until that happens! apk
"My threshold is set too high to see AC comments." - by freedom_india (780002) on Thursday July 02, @01:46PM (#28560753) Homepage
See my subject-line above then, because all I ever post as, is "A/C" (imo @ least? Registered users are way, Way, WAY to easy to track + troll) & thanks for reply:
I believe you though, you don't seem like this "TRULY ANONYMOUS COWARD" that's down-modding my posts, lol, & blowing his moderation points like mad!
(10 by now, I love it - sooner or later? He will run out of them, & then, he'd either have to face me directly & the facts I put out, or just stew in his foolishness for blowing all his mod points: I've seen, and done, this before, & in the end?? This IS what happens, & I love it!)
Take away the ONLY 'weapon' a not-man weasel has? He has nothing, but better still, is watching them take it, from themselves.
APK
P.S.=> Your thoughts on the networking issue are appreciated though, if you have not seen it? It's here (where I first posted) ->
http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1287729&cid=28539111
(I.E.-> It contains points regarding the HOSTS files issues now in VISTA since 12/09/2008, which promote bloat & inefficiency, in reply to your networking statement - this is so YOU are aware of it, AND, the point about the 1 part WFP vs. the 3 part "zone defense/phalanx" arrangement older Windows used to use)...
They're valid points, & so much so? That when I confronted MS themselves on it, alongside many other network engineers online?? Nobody will answer or debate it. I am only out to help make a BETTER Windows, as it's my fav. of them all, but this is all I can do (I was modded up for the same point here before, & the 'down mod' astounded me in fact, because my points ARE completely valid)...
Also, just for your reference (to an otherwise nice post by you)?
See this other post I did in response to yours ->
http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1287729&cid=28556345
It brings up some material you may need again should you choose to do a post about the GDI (and User32, you omitted THAT part of it) vs. AERO (& how DirectX speeds it up, as well as it probably COULD be, running in userspace again)... apk
Hello there Americano - LOL!
Well, if I am so "off topic"? Then disprove my points in this thread -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1287729&cid=28539111 AND this one -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1287729&cid=28556345 , ok?
APK
P.S.=> This is hilarious: You have to be a lousy poker player, because you're easy to bait (hubris), & to get the better of... Especially after your "lame threats" to try this very thing herem today, you have here now -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1283193&cid=28565433 Where you stated this:
"I notice in another thread you've been modded down as an off-topic troll pretty thoroughly, too - maybe I can start talking about how you're modded troll, offtopic, redundant, and all kinds of other nasty stuff, too, in an attempt to discredit your lame points?" - by Americano (920576) on Thursday July 02, @06:28PM (#28565433)
Yup, I suspected it was you... you are SO easy to predict, AND MANIPULATE, it is not even funny! Keep blowing those mod points, soon you'll be out of them, & keep avoiding my questions & being "modded down" as you were over in that url's thread above, for impersonating me (you're doing a 'fine job' of destroying yourself here is all, & I love it)... apk
See subject-line:
It appears there ARE good folks here after all!
Good folks that will even expend their "mod points" to undo what Americano has done here (he's been trolling me for about, oh, 2++ weeks now, under various names, & impersonating me as well (which he was modded down for, + tried to deny doing, & he was directly called a troll by others AND threatened lamely to do what was done to my posts here, constant mod downs -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1283193&cid=28565433).
LOL, check THIS out, it is what he "threatened" to do & he has:
"I notice in another thread you've been modded down as an off-topic troll pretty thoroughly, too - maybe I can start talking about how you're modded troll, offtopic, redundant, and all kinds of other nasty stuff, too, in an attempt to discredit your lame points?" - by Americano (920576) on Thursday July 02, @06:28PM (#28565433)
Well, so much for his evidences - someone CLEARLY thought otherwise! Keep blowing those mod points Americano... like in the other thread there where you impersonated me in even? You got modded down & this time?? It appears your words above aren't true are they??? No more "mod downs" exist on my posts here in this thread!
Thank you, to whoever put this troll "Americano" in his rightful place with the mod ups reversing his unjustified mod downs!
APK
P.S.=> Americano, you're going to "eat your words", yet again, for the 3rd time this week because of a nice person who was willing to help me out on this (& I think I know who it is, in Freedom_India, in fact, but... that's only a guess - He blew a lot of mod points to undo your b.s., & that is a nice person because he didn't HAVE to do that, period)... apk
I am NOW convinced it was "Americano" (only one of this troll's many registered usernames here no doubt, this is just another of his "sock-puppet's" & what trollish fools like that do NOT understand, is that it is a transparent ploy that is EASILY "seen thru", hilarious)...
So, what am I basing this on? Well, he did indeed, as I predicted, blow ALL of his "mod points" & that is shown in his profile here:
----
http://slashdot.org/~Americano
VERBATIM:
Americano's Achievements
Spent All My Mod Points
Days Read in a Row
The Tagger
----
Like I have said here before? Trolls - Too dim-witted & dull-brained to do a job right, & too easily seen thru, + "TOO EASY" to put them in their place... which is "the land of your screwed up & got your behind handed to you", as-per-usual/par-for-the-course for those of that "illustrious ilk" (NOT!)
APK
P.S.=> Yea, being a registered user here HAS ITS DOWNSIDES (for trolls to chase you, or to "research you" also & see what type of person you are for example, which is just what I have done to Americano & proven he was behind this all along - Americano also has "taken off" & is now hiding under another of his many alternate user accounts here) - driven out, he ran in shame, lmao... rightfully so! AT least he did THAT MUCH, right, lol! apk