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Cruising Fisherman's Wharf For New Passports' Serial Numbers

schwit1 writes "Fox News has an AP story on a hacker in San Francisco driving around and needing as little as 20 minutes to be successful in acquiring a passport number: 'Zipping past Fisherman's Wharf, his scanner detected, then downloaded to his laptop, the unique serial numbers of two pedestrians' electronic US passport cards embedded with radio frequency identification, or RFID, tags. Within an hour, he'd "skimmed" the identifiers of four more of the new, microchipped PASS cards from a distance of 20 feet. ... Meanwhile, Homeland Security has been promoting broad use of RFID even though its own advisory committee on data integrity and privacy warned that radio-tagged IDs have the potential to allow "widespread surveillance of individuals" without their knowledge or consent.'"

276 comments

  1. Security by tsa · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's strange that politicians and other managers seem to have a totally different idea of the meaning of the word 'security' than other people.

    --

    -- Cheers!

    1. Re:Security by innerweb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What the heck do you think they intended the RIFD passports for? They are meant to be used to track people. They are working as intended.

      InnerWeb

      --
      Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
    2. Re:Security by Hurricane78 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You act as if they were interested in your security at all.
      Which just shows how effective their strong twisted reality is. It even affects you to the point where you believe they would be acting ouf of the interest of the people. :)

      Don't worry, we all fell for it. As long as we learn from it, that is ok. :)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    3. Re:Security by tsa · · Score: 1

      You forget that they themselves will be just as trackable. As a politician I would be very worried about that. For some reason though, they seem to not care, which I find weird. So either they really don't care, or they just have not clue. What do you think it is? ;)

      --

      -- Cheers!

    4. Re:Security by LVSlushdat · · Score: 1

      You forget that they themselves will be just as trackable. As a politician I would be very worried about that. For some reason though, they seem to not care, which I find weird. So either they really don't care, or they just have not clue. What do you think it is? ;)

      Either that or.... Their passports "magically" do not have the RFID... perhaps a "governmental passport"... Its getting so you don't even need the tin-foil hat to see the conspiracies out there.......

      --
      THANK YOU, Edward Snowden!! Americans owe you a debt of gratitude (whether they know it or not..)
    5. Re:Security by kamapuaa · · Score: 3, Funny

      I think it's even stranger that Slashdot has a totally different idea of the meaning of "cruising Fisherman's Wharf" than I do. My version has more sailors involved.

      --
      Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
    6. Re:Security by kamapuaa · · Score: 1

      There's been a video game made about this topic. I don't remember any passport ID theft, though.

      --
      Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
    7. Re:Security by Seawitch · · Score: 0

      NO! What is strange is the lack of foresight there is in this blog! The article is talking about a passport CARD! The first step towards a National ID card and you all missed it. Geeks you may be but wise you are not!

    8. Re:Security by Dragonslicer · · Score: 2

      Are you required to carry your passport with you even when you aren't crossing the border (including international travel at airports)? If not, wouldn't the tracking only show that you're always in your bedroom? And if so, I think that may be a somewhat bigger problem.

    9. Re:Security by maxume · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you shove your passport in a simple metal lined sleeve, this tech isn't trackable.

      It is stupid that it is necessary to do so (the convenience gained is minimal), but if it a symptom of a government conspiracy, it is good to know that they are wildly incompetent. Or at least, they want us to think they are wildly incompetent. Oh no!

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    10. Re:Security by Hadlock · · Score: 2

      Not in the US. I'm not sure how that is handled in other countries though. I know a lot of international students in the US voluntarily surrender their passport to the dean's office, which will hold them in a secure place, since students tend to lose important documents like that easily. I've taken more than a few couch surfers out drinking only to realize their government issued ID is in Lousiana, California, or D.C. due to this.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    11. Re:Security by beckett · · Score: 2, Funny

      i'm just surprised Americans have passports at all.

    12. Re:Security by HiThere · · Score: 1

      In many countries, yes, you are required to carry your passport. The US may be one of those countries. (N.B.: Just because you can substitute some other form of ID, e.g. driver's license, doesn't mean that a non-resident can do the same.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    13. Re:Security by HiThere · · Score: 1

      It's not that they're wildly incompetent. They invest in a thicket of things that are an annoyance to avoid. Most people will slip somewhere. It doesn't matter that you won't slip in this place...or think you won't...they aren't that interested in you. And they could track you by other means if they were.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    14. Re:Security by HiThere · · Score: 0, Troll

      Wrong. The driver's license was not only the first step towards a national ID card, but almost the last necessary one. All they need now is regulations to harmonize the variants between the states... which may include an RFID chip. Because, you know, different states need to store different information, and that way we can include whatever's needed. (Nobody can readily tell what it contains, so it doesn't matter that all it contains is a unique ID # for lookup in a remotely hosted database.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    15. Re:Security by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      If you shove your passport in a simple metal lined sleeve, this tech isn't trackable.

      I'd rather use an oven.

      Falcon

    16. Re:Security by maxume · · Score: 1

      Sounds awfully heavy.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    17. Re:Security by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      If you're a foreigner in the US, you better carry your passport AND the Visa slip with you ALL the time, unless you want to spend part of your vacation in custody.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    18. Re:Security by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      Who the Hell carries their passport around all day in their home country? Most of the time I imagine it would be sitting in a safe place at home.

    19. Re:Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do. It is safer on my person, where I can always keep an eye on it... and where it is always within reach if I need to cross a border on short notice.

    20. Re:Security by FearForWings · · Score: 2, Interesting

      To be fair there is a passport office, and several consulates that issue visas in SF. It's possible the passports didn't even belong to the people carrying them, as it is common to use a third party to get foreign visas.

      --
      I don't know about angles, but it's fear that gives men wings. -Max Payne
    21. Re:Security by maxume · · Score: 1

      Risk spending part of your vacation in custody. I mean, count how many times you have interacted with a police officer in the last 5 years. For me, it is something like 5 (and several of those were non-adversarial...).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    22. Re:Security by Poingggg · · Score: 3, Informative

      Who the Hell carries their passport around all day in their home country? Most of the time I imagine it would be sitting in a safe place at home.

      Here in the Netherlands we have to be able to prove our identity any time the police asks for it. The only way accepted by them is to show your passport, so we officialy HAVE TO carry our passports with us any time we are outside.
      Thank you America and your 'War on Terror' to give our political creeps an excuse to put that one through our throats!

      --
      What person will donate an airborne act of love?
    23. Re:Security by idji · · Score: 2, Informative

      I flew to Sheremetyevo Airport in Moscow 2 weeks ago. There was a separate queue for "e-Passports" so I lined up. They still put my passport through the scanner - which left me wondering why they bothered to have the special queue at all. PS. When I flew out the next day the lady at passport control was very friendly and smiling - made me almost forget where I was!

    24. Re:Security by joocemann · · Score: 1

      Their idea of 'security' seems to be defined as "A conceptual medium by which masses of people may be persuaded to embrace a proposed idea."

      Scary.

    25. Re:Security by michaelhood · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Here in the Netherlands we have to be able to prove our identity any time the police asks for it. The only way accepted by them is to show your passport, so we officialy HAVE TO carry our passports with us any time we are outside.
      Thank you America and your 'War on Terror' to give our political creeps an excuse to put that one through our throats!

      You really found a way to blame your country's [perceived] fascism on another country thousands of miles away? Congrats.

    26. Re:Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It helps secure THE GOVERNMENT, not the subjects.

    27. Re:Security by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 1

      Maybe your country's real problem is people like you who are unwilling to take responsibility for what your own government does.

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    28. Re:Security by demachina · · Score: 1

      "They are meant to be used to track people."

      To be honest I'm not really sure why they would really bother with arphids to track people. The way its going everyone is carrying cell phones and those are a lot easier to track and track remotely than arphids and people carry them all the time without even thinking about which isn't true for passports. arphids might be a bit easier for close proximity identification, but it doesn't seem very reliable to me.

      Cory Doctorow's Create Commons book Little Brother is a not so fictional account of assorted abuses by the Department of Homeland Security. DHS tracking people with arphids in BART passes and toll passes in cars is one of the plot lines. It won this years Prometheus award(Libertarian Sci/Fi). Its not exactly a work of great literature. He ripped it out in a relatively short period of time and it could have used more work. But its kind of an entertaining read for geeks and a reminder how out of control the American government has been since 9/11. The book is also FREE. The ideas of XNet and Paranoid Linux are priceless. Adhoc WiFi may be the only way to have a free Internet where Big Brother isn't watching your every move.

      One does have to wonder why the NSA is building giant new data centers in San Antonia and Utah and expanding the existing one in Maryland. They seem to be ramping up to eavesdrop on a LOT more of something. I'm also wondering what this secret program Cheney was running in the CIA was all about since it appears it wasn't the torture or the already leaked NSA domestic spying program. If you think the Democrats and Obama wont be just as bad about trampling our civil liberties as Bush/Cheney you are very naive.

      Will computers liberate us or enslave us. Paradoxically, probably both at the same time.

      --
      @de_machina
    29. Re:Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You act as if they were interested in your security at all.
      Which just shows how effective their strong twisted reality is. It even affects you to the point where you believe they would be acting ouf of the interest of the people. :)

      Don't worry, we all fell for it. As long as we learn from it, that is ok. :)

      Are you saying you'll

      "get on my knees and pray....
        We don't get fooled again!"

    30. Re:Security by Poingggg · · Score: 1

      Maybe your country's real problem is people like you who are unwilling to take responsibility for what your own government does.

      Well, I did certainly NOT vote for any of the parties involved in our government then, and the same goes for our current government.
      The main party (Christian Democratic Party) of this bunch of creeps is, and has always been so eager to get into America's butt that the only question asked when America says 'jump' is: 'How far?'. If America would drop its pants you might be able to see a the tips of the toes of our prime minister (Balkenende) stick out.
      They will take any excuse to get more control over our population.
      Oh, and our new passports will have fingerprint information on an RFID-chip (and all fingerprints will be stored in a central database) because, according to the Christian Demagogues..uhh..Democrats that is mandatory by 'our' European Government. It isn't, but any excuse is good, and the Dutch sheeple will not protest.
      (But again I did vote, but NOT vote for any of them, and never, ever will.)

      --
      What person will donate an airborne act of love?
    31. Re:Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, America is clearly to blame for the actions of your govt.

    32. Re:Security by jawahar · · Score: 1

      RFID + Currency = White Money

    33. Re:Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aren't you guys the root of all evil?

    34. Re:Security by Thanshin · · Score: 1

      My version has more sailors involved.

      You can say pirates, you're in Slashdot, we won't judge you.

    35. Re:Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that's women.

    36. Re:Security by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Spend a little more time near the Mexican border and that will be 5 days, not 5 years.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    37. Re:Security by Aceticon · · Score: 1

      I strongly suggest you take a good hard look at the current crop of politicians you have elected (and re-elected) in Holland. The right-wing moralistic (for Holland) types that are leading the Government coalition on a second term now are half the reason why I personally left Holland.

      The other half are the huge taxes and scant public service - in the last couple of years everything has been privatized but taxes stayed at Sweden-like levels.

      In the last decade Holland has been adopting the Anglo-Saxon model (privatizing everything - politicians call it "liberalizing") so going in the direction of a surveillance-society is hardly surprising.

      PS: I'm not dutch but I live in Holland for almost 9 years. I started by admiring the dutch and their society and from my point of view the place has been slowly sliding towards a "control-society" like what you see in the UK.

    38. Re:Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many a true word said in jest ...

      The fact is, The USA does appear very facist to those living outside of "truth, justice, and the American way". It would appear that the entire population if the USA have their fingerprints on file. This is certainly not true for a large percentage of the rest of the world!

    39. Re:Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, yes... That shining beacon of right-wing fascism that made people the entire world have to take off their belts when they're flying.

    40. Re:Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, driver's license is also a valid form of ID, or a european ID card.

    41. Re:Security by Grismar · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sadly, Poingggg is voicing an ever more common popular Dutch adage: "most of the world's current problems are America's" fault. And an American making a quip about it will probably garner little more than a "Typical" from the likes of Poingggg.

      Being Dutch myself, I would like to add that Poingggg is wrong, or at least woefully incomplete. We -are- required by law to be able to show our ID, however we are not by law required to carry it. This may seem silly, since you need to carry it to be able to show it, but what it means is that police are not allowed to ask for ID unless you are under suspicion of some other offense (that is, other than not carrying your ID).

      Also, the ID produced does not have to be a passport. Dutch driver's license or Dutch identity cards are also accepted valid IDs. Additionally, the law only applies to people over the age of 14.

      So, the only people at serious risk from getting their ID's copied as described (when not using a tinfoil wallet) are people in the age range 15-18 (impossible to get a valid driver's license), foreigners (only a passport, or some specific documents pertaining to asylum and long-term stay will do) and people unable or unwilling to get a driver's license.

      And sofar, the only people fined for not being able to produce the ID have been - to my knowledge - people who refused to produce it (even when allowed to retrieve it from elsewhere) or people who committed some other punishable offense in addition to not carrying the ID.

    42. Re:Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What nonsense. I spent a year in Amsterdam and never carried my passport. I was stopped by an officer for a bike fine once and showed a student ID (all I had with me), and I'm not even a Dutch citizen! This is an obvious exaggeration.

    43. Re:Security by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      Aye, we've taken a strong slide to the right lately. Historically the PvdA was very vocally against the whole identification thing, but since the last couple of VVD-CDA coalitions things have taken a turn for the worse. Now we've got the total morons following mr Wilders, so things are really looking up...

      Not sure where it's coming from tbh. I mean, things over here are pretty much as good as they have ever been, and the only people I really see complaining about all the things that are supposedly wrong with society are the people that cause most of them themselves but prefer to blame others. Oh well, must be the Telegraaf reading, SBS6 watching demographic we love so much.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    44. Re:Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but the (old?) article is about passport cards, not passports which do not carry an easy to scan tag. You need to have a public transport card (OV-chipkaart) for that...

    45. Re:Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you should have your legislature change the laws and not blame the US.

    46. Re:Security by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      Not in the US. I'm not sure how that is handled in other countries though. I know a lot of international students in the US voluntarily surrender their passport to the dean's office, which will hold them in a secure place, since students tend to lose important documents like that easily. I've taken more than a few couch surfers out drinking only to realize their government issued ID is in Lousiana, California, or D.C. due to this.

      Precisely. Some countries do require it, and some countries do require you to be able to present ID. In most countries, as a foreigner, the only ID they will accept as valid is the passport. It's too easy to get away with faking something like a Wisconsin driver's license that nobody in Istanbul would be able to authenticate.

      On the same line, it's rapidly getting to the point where you can't travel within the US without having your papers (ID). If cops think you're acting suspicious (just walking down the street), they'll frequently ask for ID. There have been a lot of recent cases regarding this, and the laws are getting more and more towards making ID mandatory.

      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    47. Re:Security by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      True.

      > its own advisory committee on data integrity and privacy warned that radio-
      > tagged IDs have the potential to allow "widespread surveillance of individuals"
      > without their knowledge or consent.'"

      Gubmint: Oh, noes!

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    48. Re:Security by tsa · · Score: 1

      Oh come on, that's ridiculous. You can blame Anerica for a lot of things, but not this. Blame our own politicians (I'm Dutch too) who try to solve every problem with more suppression and threats of severe punishments.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    49. Re:Security by Poingggg · · Score: 1

      As a matter of fact, I only blame America indirectly. Our politicians *did* use the American 'war on terror' as an excuse to pull this one (and more). I have to admit that they did't do it on American command, but otoh, I never said they did.

      Worst of all is that if this government would fall, it will probably be replaced by something even worse, as populistic idiots are gaining traction here.

      --
      What person will donate an airborne act of love?
    50. Re:Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To add more insult...

      In the US we can not be required to carry identification. But if the cops stop you they can detain you until they can determine your identity.

      Different words, pretty much the same thing. The key point being that in both places there is no specific requirement to carry it, so you can't be charged for simply not having your paperwork with you. But in both places they can make your life a pain for a while if you don't.

      Different wording, same end result. And this didn't start with the "War" on "Terror" but it certainly isn't helping any.

    51. Re:Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here in the Netherlands we have to be able to prove our identity any time the police asks for it. The only way accepted by them is to show your passport, so we officialy HAVE TO carry our passports with us any time we are outside.
      Thank you America and your 'War on Terror' to give our political creeps an excuse to put that one through our throats!

      You really found a way to blame your country's [perceived] fascism on another country thousands of miles away? Congrats.

      9/11 is used as an excuse in many countries, including the Netherlands, for the introduction of measures that have no effect on terrorism but do have effect on the privacy of the people. The OP was wrong in blaming the US however, because as we all know, Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11. That is well documented and everyone has seen the proof for this. There is no way the US was in any way responsible for the 9/11 events and the subsequent losing of the privacy.

  2. Nothing to worry about... by vrmlguy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You just need to buy an RFID shield for your passport and you can put your mind at ease. Unless, of course, you want to worry about how they don't work.

    --
    Nothing for 6-digit uids?
    1. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      99% of the time, you really shouldn't be carrying your passport with you anyway. I can't imagine what people are doing walking around San Francisco with their US passports. Unless you're on the way to the airport or about to cross a national border somewhere, your passport should be stashed somewhere safe. Keep a photocopy on you if you must.

    2. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      newfag

    3. Re:Nothing to worry about... by blackraven14250 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And safety is really easy to come by in a hotel in Somalia.

    4. Re:Nothing to worry about... by darkitecture · · Score: 1

      Or you could, you know, stick the thing in the microwave for ten seconds.

      Enough to zap the chip, not enough to toast the paperwork.

      Done and done, job well done.

    5. Re:Nothing to worry about... by camperdave · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or you could, you know, stick the thing in the microwave for ten seconds. Enough to zap the chip, not enough to toast the paperwork.

      Good luck trying to cross the border with your "forged" passport.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    6. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry, did you have some kind of point? The story was talking about San Francisco.

    7. Re:Nothing to worry about... by theeddie55 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Except that the RFID shield you reference is entirely different to the passport shielding that video demonstrates to be ineffective.

    8. Re:Nothing to worry about... by houghi · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well, as Fisherman's Wharf is a tourist attraction, I would think that the majority of the people are tourists.

      And about the part that says about what people should do, people should design a secure system where one of the factors is that people WILL carry them around on Fisherman's Wharf. Do not blame the users for usage, blame the designer for not putting it in the design.

      The 'stupidity' of the users is well known and well documented. Persons are smart, people are stupid. If you deal with security, that is what you have to think about. If you don't, your design will be flawed.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    9. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Persons are smart, people are stupid.

      Correction. People are stupid. Persons are slightly less stupid.

    10. Re:Nothing to worry about... by maxume · · Score: 1

      They scanned passport cards, not regular passports; presumably, quite a few of the folks carrying them around San Francisco travel to Mexico on a regular basis.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    11. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It could be that the defective design is a feature - a calculated one that the good guys will get a greater advantage than the bad guys. Such as demanding a passport when there is a run on a financial institution or ration queue.
      The trouble is bad guys and illegals already know this and how to shield properly against more than one frequency/sigint.
      As arrival and boarding lists are already pre-processed, bullshit claims of efficiency and whatever are crap.

      The scheme fails, in that countries of interest will never go for RFID, where they run a trade surplus of money and other repatriations, hence the fingerprinting and such. Bottom line: there is no cost/benefit for Americans, its just a hare brain scheme that somehow got out.

    12. Re:Nothing to worry about... by MojoRilla · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, people shouldn't have to pay $20 for a way to make this technology safer. The government should improve their own shielding, and use more secure protocols for RFID transmission.

    13. Re:Nothing to worry about... by six11 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And safety is really easy to come by in a hotel in Somalia.

      I'm sorry, did you have some kind of point? The story was talking about San Francisco.

      Were you kidding?

      If US passport data can be easily acquired in San Francisco (where US citizens generally don't carry them), then it follows that said data will be abundant in areas where people are likely to carry passports. Somalia was just an example. Replace it with your favorite vacation getaway spot, if you like.

      blackraven's comment is +5 insightful IMO.

    14. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Somalia was just an example. Replace it with your favorite vacation getaway spot

      Are you fucking kidding me?

    15. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We drink and we pillage and we do what we please
      We get all we want for free
      We'll kick your ass and rape your lass
      Somalian pirates we!

      So with a yo-ho-ho (yo ho ho!)
      and with a yee-hee-hee (yee hee hee!)
      We take to the African sea.
      We'll brave the squalls and bust your balls
      Somalian pirates we!

      We left our homes and we left our mutters [mothers]
      to go on a pillaging spree
      We'll cut of your ears and break your toes,
      And make you drink our pee.

      And if you sail into our waters
      You best hear this decree:
      We'll take your boat, set your ass afloat,
      Somalian pirates we!

      With a yo-ho-ho and a tricki-la-ti-doo
      We'll shoot you in the face with glee
      Then we'll cut off your cock and feed it to a croc
      Somalian pirates we!

    16. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just put it in the Microwave for 3 seconds and it will fix it.

    17. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      San Francisco is a little farther from Mexico than a simple day trip drive. Over 8 hours one way, and that is just to get to San Diego. Add another hour in line at the border crossing and you easily have a 9 to 10 hour trip one way, sometime encroaching 12 hours depending on a day.

    18. Re:Nothing to worry about... by aclarke · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm Canadian and went to renew my passport on Friday. My existing passport was still valid for a couple more weeks, but the woman across the desk thought it was expired as her machine didn't read it. She told me this, and I explained to her with a straight face that maybe that was because I'd microwaved my passport (I hadn't really).

      She didn't get the joke, which was just as well I suppose.

    19. Re:Nothing to worry about... by suso · · Score: 1

      Ok, but when you are in another country you should be carrying your passport 100% of the time.

    20. Re:Nothing to worry about... by gander666 · · Score: 1

      Or in Germany, where my passport was stolen from one of those in-room safes (physically destroyed to open, not hacked into).

      --
      Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress ... but I repeat myself. - Mark T
    21. Re:Nothing to worry about... by medlefsen · · Score: 1

      Why would a US citizen carry a US passport to a location inside of the US?

    22. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 'stupidity' of the users is well known and well documented. Very very few persons are smart, people are stupid. If you deal with security...

      There, fixed that for ya.

    23. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for the Youtube link. I noticed a few minutes into the video that Napoleon Dynamite seems to be working as a security consultant now.

    24. Re:Nothing to worry about... by sunderland56 · · Score: 1

      Nothing says that hackers can't drive down your street, and pick up the RFID from your passport while it is sitting "securely" in your home.

    25. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I tried that with a cancelled RFID credit card.

      In 3 seconds it had already let out smoke.

      One second later (literally) I stopped the microwave. The card had a VERY visible "melt" ring where the RFID antenna was and was damaged enough it would not read in my CC reader anymore.

      Don't do this with anything you care about. A rubber mallet is more effective and leaves fewer traces.

    26. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WIred magazine did a test on the RFID chips, they found a hammer was the best way to secure them. Thats right beat it to death. The passport is still valid.

    27. Re:Nothing to worry about... by st0rmshad0w · · Score: 1

      Maybe its just one stop on a trip that goes out of country?

    28. Re:Nothing to worry about... by bcrowell · · Score: 1

      You just need to buy an RFID shield for your passport and you can put your mind at ease. Unless, of course, you want to worry about how they don't work.

      Thanks for the interesting links!

      As others have noted, your analysis isn't quite correct. For those who don't want to watch the whole video in your second link, here's a summary of what it says. It demonstrates a security vulnerability. The vulnerability does not involve theft of data, because there's encryption built into the passport. What it demonstrates is that if you leave your passport open by half an inch, the built-in shielding doesn't work as well, with the result that from a range of 6 inches, it's possible to detect the fact that the passport is there, and that it's a US passport rather than some other country's. (Actually they didn't really demonstrate selectivity by nationality, but they claim it's possible.) They say this exposes US tourists in foreign countries to a risk of violence targeted specifically against Americans. They demonstrate the risk by hanging a dummy from a clothesline, with a passport attached to the dummy, open half an inch. They pull it along the clothesline past an explosive device with a detector, which explodes when the passport comes within 6 inches of the detector. They also demonstrate an improved shielding system they devised, which prevents detection even when the passport is open half an inch.

      Your first link is a company that sells Faraday-cage wallets for $20.

      So my analysis would be as follows:

      1. I'm sure the Faraday-cage wallets work fine, because they're based on solid physical principles. However, $20 is kind of a lot of money to pay for what is essentially 10 cents worth of aluminum foil.
      2. In the case of a US passport, the Faraday-cage wallet isn't necessary. You're better off just getting a binder clip to hold your passport shut, so that it won't accidentally open by half an inch while it's on your person.
      3. The binder clip should be cheap and 100% effective protection against the farfetched threat in the video. But the threat in the video is farfetched, because there are much easier ways of finding American tourists. Like they speak English. And they dress like Americans. And they carry cameras. And some of them follow tour guides who explain, loudly, in English, the local sightseeing attractions.
      4. There are other things you might be carrying around that could have RFID, e.g., credit cards, cafeteria debit cards, or employee ID cards. A Faraday cage of some type might be a useful thing to protect these, but I'd need a lot more analysis to know whether the effort was worth it. How do I know which items in my wallet do have RFID built in? Are they encrypted? What are the possible exploits for each item?
    29. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speaking as a civil servant - you used humour on a civil servant?

    30. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      The only problem I have is that while Flexilis may have a good point, the video you linked to is rubbish as far as proving their point. It could just as easily have been a rigged thing for their "demo". They needed to show things just a bit better than that- it's all smoke and mirrors with it as it is now.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    31. Re:Nothing to worry about... by TheGavster · · Score: 2, Informative

      In at least some states (Massachusetts for one) out-of-state ID isn't accepted for alcohol purchases, but federal ID like a passport is. Not sure if California is like that though.

      --
      "Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
    32. Re:Nothing to worry about... by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      You don't have to pay $20 - as the cards themselves are shipped with such a shield. (At least mine, which I got a couple of weeks back, came with such a shield.)
       
      Probably what happens is people leave the shield off as it is rather unwieldy with the shield installed and no longer fits properly into your wallet.

    33. Re:Nothing to worry about... by RotateLeftByte · · Score: 1

      Your No 3 is not quite correct

      - Speak English - A lot places other than the USA speaks english
      - Dresses like an American - Agreed
      - Carry Cameras - Have you ever seen a Japanese Tour Group. They have more cameras than people

      I'd add however
      - Have name tags attched to their clothes with names like 'Chip', 'Bud' & 'Hank'.
      - Only willing to eat Steak & French Fries unless it is a BigMac. (even in places where there are no Macdonalds...)

      Seriously though, Americanes are about the easiest Nationality to pick out from a crowd and you don't need RFID to do it. I see them standing out clearly all the time in London. Other nations are a bit more discrete.
       

      --
      I'd rather be riding my '63 Triumph T120.
    34. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say far fetched.

      You wouldn't steal data. You wouldn't be "singling them out" for direct attack. You would, though, leave things that would instill terror behind that looked for these passports.

      The video's bogus (It looks too smoke and mirrors for them to have actually DONE the exploit they're talking to...), but the risk is actually very real- especially considering that it'd only cost $500 above the cost of the explosives to set up a car-bomb or similar that wouldn't go off until it saw an American passport that way. And if you get the passport cards, you don't even have the RFID "shield" they've developed for the regular passports.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    35. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Alioth · · Score: 1

      Or how about just not using RFID at all? I don't see why passports can't use the same style chip as used widely in credit cards and debit cards.

    36. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so... basically, if you just put a rubber band around your passport to keep it closed, the shielding works, right?

    37. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Dr+Tall · · Score: 1

      But the threat in the video is farfetched, because there are much easier ways of finding American tourists.

      I don't think the author is making the claim that RFID is the best way to ID Americans. I agree with you that there are much better ways for a human to ID an American. But what about an explosive device, as shown in the video? Modern terrorists use remote explosives to time an attack for most destruction and/or destruction of Americans as opposed to sympathetic locals.

      It would be much easier to build a device that will only blow up if X number of Americans are in its kill range. This device could be constructed, dropped, and forgotten about. This means you have no risk of being caught once you plant the device. Sure it could make plenty of collateral damage, but it would always get at least X Americans along with it. The author's claim is that faulty RFID shielding on passports makes this possible to do. I don't have a cost analysis, so perhaps it is still farfetched, but for the right price I think this would be a very practical exploit.

    38. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would a US citizen carry a US passport to a location inside of the US?

      Because not all US citizens live in the US, but often visit and vacation here, and they need the passport to pass through customs. I don't know about you, but I don't leave important documents in a hotel room.

    39. Re:Nothing to worry about... by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      No, people shouldn't have to pay $20 for a way to make this technology safer. The government should improve their own shielding, and use more secure protocols for RFID transmission.

      People should only be worried about safety from government. And government shouldn't be using RFID nevermind IDs. It used to be that people in the US could cross the US Mexico border and the US Canadian border, which I've done a number of tymes, without needing a passport.

      Falcon

    40. Re:Nothing to worry about... by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      Or how about just not using RFID at all? I don't see why passports can't use the same style chip as used widely in credit cards and debit cards.

      Even the chips in credit cards aren't needed. Some years ago my credit card issuer stopped using them because the usefulness didn't justify the expense. Now if I want, such as to order something online, my issuer will issue a one tyme use credit card number.

      Falcon

    41. Re:Nothing to worry about... by gnud · · Score: 1

      Not nessescarily.
      I've been counceled to carry a verified copy of my passport, and keep the original in the hotel safe, in case of a mugging.

    42. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      San Francisco is a port

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_San_Francisco

      and Fishermans wharf is part of the Port, with international shipping moving in and out of the port there will be many people exiting and entering the USA via the Port, even if your not planning on exiting a passport can be useful.

    43. Re:Nothing to worry about... by mpe · · Score: 1

      Or how about just not using RFID at all?

      Especially given that where passports are typically used it's important to ensure that you are reading the right passport and using RFIDs are vulnerable to a fairly simple denial of service attack.

    44. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Quothz · · Score: 1

      San Francisco is a little farther from Mexico than a simple day trip drive. Over 8 hours one way, and that is just to get to San Diego. Add another hour in line at the border crossing and you easily have a 9 to 10 hour trip one way, sometime encroaching 12 hours depending on a day.

      Funny, I've made it from San Francisco to San Diego within a couple of hours many, many times. Is it magic? Am I lying? Or... maybe... I traveled on a plane. Commuter flights are plentiful and cheap, and regular trains run between the cities as well. Also, SF is a common stop on flights going to and from various Vancouvers, including the one in Big Canadia.

    45. Re:Nothing to worry about... by vidarh · · Score: 1

      In the UK one of the largest banks have started adding RFID to their credit cards for small purchases...

    46. Re:Nothing to worry about... by justin12345 · · Score: 1

      To get into a bar. I have a friend who is a bouncer and he says its very common (he mentioned this when I was showing him my brand new RFID passport). The joke among bouncers evidently is: the guy who shows up with a passport probably lost his license for too many DUIs.

      --
      Cool art gallery, if you're into that sort of thing.
    47. Re:Nothing to worry about... by bcrowell · · Score: 1

      It would be much easier to build a device that will only blow up if X number of Americans are in its kill range.

      They say it only works if the passport is at least half an inch open, and within a range of 6 inches. I don't think there's any significant probability of getting two or more Americans, with their passports at least half an inch open, simultaneously positioned so that all their passports are within 6 inches of the same detector.

    48. Re:Nothing to worry about... by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      - Carry Cameras - Have you ever seen a Japanese Tour Group. They have more cameras than people

      Fortunately, or unfortunately depending on how it's looked at, I'd be like those Japanese. I only have one camera body right now but I have more than one lens and carry a number of rolls of film. I don't have one now but I want to get a DSLR camera body I can use the same lenses on as I use on my 35mm film camera. And I've like to get a medium format camera and lenses for it as well.

      Falcon

    49. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Reziac · · Score: 1

      And when American passports are the only ones that respond to an RFID probe... kinda paints a target on you while in foreign lands, eh?

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    50. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Aside from the RFID chip painting a target on Americans abroad... what use IS it, when foreign passports don't have the same chip??

      Since the idea is to carry the passport when you are in some OTHER country, not while you're at home!

      I can see the solution for that one, tho... get your RFID chip injected as you cross the U.S. border -- in or out!

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    51. Re:Nothing to worry about... by ImNotAtWork · · Score: 1

      Hotels regularly request to hold your passport during your stay. This was the case when I stayed in Italy.

      --
      open source sub sim. I might start coding again for this. http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/contribute/
    52. Re:Nothing to worry about... by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      Ok, but when you are in another country you should be carrying your passport 100% of the time.

      People should not be required to carry passports with them all the tyme even when in another country.

      Falcon

    53. Re:Nothing to worry about... by niktemadur · · Score: 1

      They scanned passport cards, not regular passports; presumably, quite a few of the folks carrying them around San Francisco travel to Mexico on a regular basis.

      Immigration tightened regulations last year to such extent, that even on one day car trips across the border, either to Mexico or Canada, all US citizens must do so with a valid passport or passport card, any other form of ID is no longer adequate. For air travel, the old-fashioned passport booklet is required.
      The passport booklet contains a machine-readable strip, while the passport card, which began to be issued last year in tandem with the new immigration regulations, contains the chip.

      This article being about the San Francisco wharf, what I'm picturing here are passengers either embarking or disembarking cruise ships with a port of call in Vancouver or Victoria, British Columbia. Most cruise ships to Mexico depart from Long Beach or San Diego, while those headed north all the way to Alaska do so from San Francisco.

      Now, the passport card is issued with a sleeve to block the chip from scanning devices, but knowing how most people are unaware and/or unconcerned about tech vulnerabilities, I'm guessing many found the sleeve inconvenient, put it away and placed the card in their wallet, as they would a driver's license, state ID, AAA card, etc, then went along on their merry way.

      I'd be very interested to read a follow-up to this article, to see what happens when the scanning device is used in a mall or a bar, because if the results remain constant in residential neighborhoods, malls and bars, then definitely, people are NOT getting the point, which means somebody's not doing their job (making the public aware of the risks).

      --
      Lil' Thindime, lilting a lacrimose lament, krashes the kwaint konfines of Kokonino Kounty
    54. Re:Nothing to worry about... by maxume · · Score: 1

      So is the chip really that much harder to counterfeit than other security devices?

      If not, the lack of notification about using the sleeve isn't real surprising, as they weren't doing their jobs when they decided that the cards needed the RFID chips. I mean, I certainly hope that the 20 seconds it would take to use a magswipe or type in a number are not the big holdup.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    55. Re:Nothing to worry about... by maxume · · Score: 1

      The passport card isn't any good for international flights, a full passport is required (so flights do not explain why these people were carrying their cards). The other reply to my post suggests a plausible explanation, people boarding Canadian cruise ships. Someone else mentions that there is a passport office in San Francisco (but it seems more likely that the people who got scanned in this article were carrying the card for a cruise).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    56. Re:Nothing to worry about... by paimin · · Score: 1

      I tried to watch the vid, but that dude's lips freak me out.

      --
      Facebook is the new AOL
    57. Re:Nothing to worry about... by MisterSchmoo · · Score: 0

      You're absolutely right they don't have to pay $20 to make this technology safer, I think you'll fine a 2c rubber band around the passport will achieve the same thing.

    58. Re:Nothing to worry about... by ScottCooperDotNet · · Score: 1

      And that's extra helpful when you move out of MA and your new state confiscates your drivers license in exchange for your new one. Then you get to pay MA for a foolish "alcohol ID." What a racket.

    59. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Quothz · · Score: 1

      The passport card isn't any good for international flights, a full passport is required (so flights do not explain why these people were carrying their cards).

      Huh; I didn't realize that. However, San Francisco to San Diego is not an international flight. There's a lot of folks who fly into SD and hop a trolley into TJ. That, and cruises as you suggest, could explain a few folks wandering around with these cards.

      Whatever the reason, I don't find it at all unusual that a small percentage of people in SF are carrying these cards.

    60. Re:Nothing to worry about... by kklein · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In at least some states (Massachusetts for one) out-of-state ID isn't accepted for alcohol purchases, but federal ID like a passport is.

      Whenever I've run into that, I've pointed out that it is clearly unconstitutional (Article IV, Section 1; full faith and credit clause).

    61. Re:Nothing to worry about... by michaelhood · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The joke among bouncers evidently is: the guy who shows up with a passport probably lost his license for too many DUIs.

      Or prefers to present his passport because it doesn't get scanned (magstripe), and doesn't have your home address or even home state printed on it.

    62. Re:Nothing to worry about... by michaelhood · · Score: 1

      Immigration tightened regulations last year to such extent, that even on one day car trips across the border, either to Mexico or Canada, all US citizens must do so with a valid passport or passport card, any other form of ID is no longer adequate.

      It's worth nothing that you don't need anything but a body to get into Mexico, it's the getting back into the US that is controlled. :)

    63. Re:Nothing to worry about... by lannocc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I wonder if it's state law or simply a rule the businesses have implemented? If it's the latter then the constitution wouldn't apply and they could refuse service for any reason.

    64. Re:Nothing to worry about... by demachina · · Score: 1

      According to Wikipedia U.S. passports were redesigned to build in shielding so I'm wondering if this person was reading U.S. passports before the design, passports from elsewhere or the redesign didn't work:

      "In 2006, RFID tags were included in new US passports. The US produced 10 million passports in 2005, and it has been estimated that 13 million will be produced in 2006. The chips inlays produced by Smartrac will store the same information that is printed within the passport and will also include a digital picture of the owner.[11] The US State Department initially stated the chips could only be read from a distance of 10 cm (4 in), but after widespread criticism and a clear demonstration that special equipment can read the test passports from 10 meters (33 ft) away, the passports were designed to incorporate a thin metal lining to make it more difficult for unauthorized readers to "skim" information when the passport is closed. The department will also implement Basic Access Control (BAC), which functions as a Personal Identification Number (PIN) in the form of characters printed on the passport data page. Before a passport's tag can be read, this PIN must be entered into an RFID reader. The BAC also enables the encryption of any communication between the chip and interrogator"

      --
      @de_machina
    65. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup... I've been refused alcohol for not having a CA license before.

    66. Re:Nothing to worry about... by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      It used to be that people in the US could cross the US Mexico border and the US Canadian border, which I've done a number of tymes, without needing a passport.

      I think Peter Sellers said it best, when he stated, "Not any more!"

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    67. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just wanted to add here, AFAIK the current Passports *DO* contain an RFID chip, however when I got mine last month it DID NOT come with any form of sleeve.

      It's basically a slightly nicer version of those cheap checkboard notebooks everybody used to have in gradeschool, only navy blue with the binding strip integrated into the cover. Furthermore on the last page of the booklet it explicitly states: 'This booklet contains RFID technology, avoid placing near any source of strong radio transmission, or bending such that the chip could break.'

      Needless to say it's been sitting on a shelf in a rather well insulated room awaiting me actually USING it.

    68. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Hydian · · Score: 1

      Good luck trying to cross the border with your "forged" passport.

      I've flown on a passport that doesn't scan and it hasn't been an issue for me. It isn't like they've never run into issues with things not scanning before.

    69. Re:Nothing to worry about... by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Well, as Fisherman's Wharf is a tourist attraction, I would think that the majority of the people are tourists.

      WTF are people walking around with their passports, especially tourists. I travel quite extensively and I never have my passport on me unless I am going somewhere, at all other times it's locked safely away in the hotel safe or at the very least my locked in my luggage. Doubly so in the US, if you need to carry ID then take your drivers license or some other piece of easily replaceable photo ID.

      The last thing you want to lose overseas is your passport. It will cost you hundreds of dollars as well as a coronary to get a replacement through your embassy as well as screwing around with your travel plans.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    70. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Tuoqui · · Score: 1

      OR... you could leave your passport at home inside a solid fireproof safe unless you're planning to cross a border.

      --
      09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
      +2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
    71. Re:Nothing to worry about... by pjt33 · · Score: 1

      what use IS it, when foreign passports don't have the same chip??

      I don't know whether my British passport has the same chip, but it definitely has a chip. I carry it in a tinfoil wallet.

    72. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they usually ask it for registration and returns it to you the same day... maybe you have a darker skin than average? Italians are truly bigot racist (I know, I live among them)

    73. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Well, you Brits are way ahead of us on this 1984 stuff. You're up to about 2010 already, and we're stuck back about 1982 or so! ;)

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    74. Re:Nothing to worry about... by SCHecklerX · · Score: 1

      Or, I dunno, not use friggin' RFID in the first place? WTF is wrong with mag stripes and bar codes?

    75. Re:Nothing to worry about... by n7ytd · · Score: 1

      So three seconds is too long. With the amount of power a microwave generates, probably leaving it there just long enough to hear the magnetron power on would be long enough to overload something in the RFID chip.

    76. Re:Nothing to worry about... by n7ytd · · Score: 1

      And from Wikipedia's article on Basic Access Control, it seems that there may still be flaws in these security measures.

    77. Re:Nothing to worry about... by Jay+L · · Score: 1

      Whenever I've run into that, I've pointed out that it is clearly unconstitutional

      OK, but how many liquor stores said "I accept your interpretation of state Constitutional law, and so I will allow you to purchase this liquor"?

    78. Re:Nothing to worry about... by vrmlguy · · Score: 1

      Some years ago my credit card issuer stopped using them because the usefulness didn't justify the expense. Now if I want, such as to order something online, my issuer will issue a one tyme use credit card number.

      Who is your issuer? Mine stopped doing that years ago, and I'd like to find someone who still does.

      --
      Nothing for 6-digit uids?
    79. Re:Nothing to worry about... by vrmlguy · · Score: 1

      You need to watch the video. If the passport opens up just a bit, the shielding that is built into the passport's cover is no longer effective. And how bigis your wallet? My passport is way bigger than my wallet.

      --
      Nothing for 6-digit uids?
  3. Gosh... by feepness · · Score: 3, Funny

    If only these same people who secured my passport were in charge of my healthcare as well, then everything would be great!

    1. Re:Gosh... by Atmchicago · · Score: 3, Insightful

      [sarcasm]Yes, heaven forbid the United States catch up with the rest of the developed world and get a system that works better while costing less.[/sarcasm] Passport security and health systems have nothing to do with each other, please let you brain do the thinking, not your mouth or your gut.

      --

      You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it dissolve.

    2. Re:Gosh... by maxume · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The U.S. doesn't make any passing attempt at running an efficient health care system. For people that can afford it, spectacular care is available here.

      So the well off have plenty to fear from government intervention, they face the potential for higher taxes and the potential for lower availability of care (vast amounts are spent on extreme measures in the U.S.).

      Sure, it would probably be healthier for us as a society to provide a more equitable system, but let's not pretend that it is going to be better for everyone.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    3. Re:Gosh... by MeatBag+PussRocket · · Score: 2, Interesting

      truly spectacular care is in Europe these days, sadly the US healthcare system has defeated itself due to the cost of doing business here for most physicians. What America has is the _perception_ of good healthcare, however, just because sombody has a specialist for every ailment doesn't mean they're getting remotely good healthcare. in the US there are typically around 12 Doctors involved in the average Americans healthcare. have you ever been to a doctors office? do you know how busy- especially a decent specialist- is? do you think any of them really know _any_ of their patients well from a physicians standpoint? more to the point, do you think these doctors actually communicate? i know theres a lot of citation needed for a post like that but i'm too burned out on the issue to gather the facts, having worked in the medical field as a healthcare professional for a while i've seen firsthand the fiasco that is the US heathcare system. sorry folks, you arent getting "the best healthcare in the world" not even close. in fact

      http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

      the US fares pretty abysmally.

      while its true the above WHO report does have a slight bias to social medicine due to cost being factored in (which isnt a bad thing) there is no denying that the outcomes for patients in the US are certainly not world class.

      --
      i wage a holy war against the apostrophe.
    4. Re:Gosh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's fuckheads like you that are the problem, shit stain. Why do you assume national health care here would automatically be great? Can you even see the difference in situations? Can you even see one billionth of the complexity of thew issue? Are you even following the process that's currently in motion, and seeing how slapdash it is? Or are your ideological filters so clogged up that objective reality is just a distant glow for you now? Why can't losers like you just drop dead?

    5. Re:Gosh... by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Who said anything about being "in charge of [your] healthcare"? The government is simply going to provide another insurance option. So if you don't trust them, you're free to use a private insurance provider. It's entirely up to you.

    6. Re:Gosh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting note, despite those countries being a utopia of healthcare perfection, the healthcare costs are going up according to the links you provided.
      And that's even without the morbid obesity problems in the US.

    7. Re:Gosh... by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Well, the private healthcare industry is likely to survive only as long as the government plan is more expensive or has less coverage. The minute the government has a taxpayer-subsidized plan that is cheaper than private healthcare, the game is over. No more private insurance.

      By the way, this is the admitted goal of most of the advisors on the Obama healthcare team.

    8. Re:Gosh... by Mista2 · · Score: 1

      I always thought they should have got the blueray DRM team to do the security for passports too. 8)
      Interesting how the systems/protections designed to stop you enjoying the freedom of Hollywoods data aren't applied to protecting the security of YOUR data.

    9. Re:Gosh... by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Well, the private healthcare industry is likely to survive only as long as the government plan is more expensive or has less coverage.

      Right. So as long as a government-run health insurance system is better than private insurance, private insurance may not survive because it can't compete.

      Wait... what's the problem? Isn't the whole point to try to make the US healthcare system better? Wouldn't this scenario prove that it *worked*?

    10. Re:Gosh... by autophile · · Score: 1

      If only these same people who secured my passport were in charge of my healthcare as well, then everything would be great!

      ...

      You want Homeland Security to be in charge of health care?

      --
      Towards the Singularity.
  4. Legislators have no idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Politicians have zero education, training in IT, they will buy into ideas pitched by lobbyists in order to secure rich government contracts for certain businesses.

  5. You and the submitter are naive. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Meanwhile, Homeland Security has been promoting broad use of RFID even though its own advisory committee on data integrity and privacy warned that radio-tagged IDs have the potential to allow "widespread surveillance of individuals" without their knowledge or consent."

    s/even though/exactly because/g

  6. Re:Fighting the wrong battle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure, but with facial recognition you'd first need a good database. The RFID in those passwords makes life a lot easier for terrorists wanting to strike at American tourists, for example.

  7. Surveillance could be the least of our worries... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    radio-tagged IDs have the potential to allow "widespread surveillance of individuals"

    Worse still, if it can be read once, it could be read twice, for instance to trigger their assassination e.g. with a bomb that would identify its targets based on the RFID (of the passport or any other of their belongings).

    Moreover, remote-readable IDs could make it easier e.g. for kidnappers to single out the most promising victims from a crowd.
    What obstacle would stop determined attackers from getting their hands on this kind of technology? Bigger and more thoroughly guarded things than simple hand-held radio tag scanners are probably being stolen from airports every day.

  8. Re:Fighting the wrong battle by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

    Actually, fears will never come to pass until the technology doesn't exist. Then, you have the problem of new technologies replacing it and the fears associated with it with new ones. This keeps going until the fears happen. So, it's probably wise to have the fears and keep them from becoming than to do nothing.

  9. Poor encryption by MobyDisk · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Passports use BAC encryption, which is obviously pretty weak.

    1. Re:Poor encryption by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      Sorry to reply to my own post. The article only says:

      Zipping past Fisherman's Wharf, his scanner detected, then downloaded to his laptop, the unique serial numbers of two pedestrians' electronic U.S. passport cards
      So all he got was serial numbers? meh.

    2. Re:Poor encryption by maxume · · Score: 1

      Unless I misread something, the serial number is all that is on the RFID chip.

      I guess the supposed advantage of the chip is that it is harder to forge than a barcode or printed number, but it doesn't seem worth it if it can automatically be identified 20 feet away (it doesn't increase risk an enormous amount for most people, but it increases it a little, with no apparent gain).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    3. Re:Poor encryption by owlstead · · Score: 1

      This is about US passport card. Real passports don't have an easy to read out serial number - or at least the country should have disabled the default serial number. The RFID tag (used as identification and for anti-collision with other cards) is set to random instead.

  10. WHAT!? by anonieuweling · · Score: 2, Funny

    You mean that RFID actually works!?


    Yes, but do we really need it in passports and identification cards?

    1. Re:WHAT!? by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1

      You mean that RFID actually works!? Yes, but do we really need it in passports and identification cards?

      Might help me find mine.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
  11. thats not a warning... by hitmark · · Score: 1

    thats a endorsement for continual increase in use.

    I wonder how long it will take before credit companies, homeland security and other rfid pushers join forces to create a implantable credit card/passport/whatever-service-you-can-think-of rfid chip. For your own protection and convenience, honest...

    --
    comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    1. Re:thats not a warning... by PRMan · · Score: 1

      According to the Bible, it's inevitable...

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    2. Re:thats not a warning... by Reziac · · Score: 1

      And when we have an RFID card that you're required to carry at all times... if you're using a public sidewalk or city park, it charges you a "pedestrian tax" based on duration and location. Stores could charge a micropayment for window shopping, and a wear-and-tear payment for walking in the door. The ballpark could charge you a spectator fee based on how long you stood outside peering through that hole in the outfield fence. And so on...

      This all sounds absurd right now, but is perfectly doable... and it's not like absurd has stopped 'em in the past. :/

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  12. Re:Fighting the wrong battle by petes_PoV · · Score: 3, Informative
    A lot of times, you have a photo of the "suspect" who's movement you want to track (either from other surveillance, or a mugshot - or even from their passport phot. The reason you're told not to smile is because the P.R. software has a harder time dealing with it - same with glasses wearers.). All that's needed is to feed the photo into the recognition system and give it all your CCTV footage to crunch. This is how surveillance societies like Britain tend to do it now.

    You're right though, that you can't just type in "tell me where Joe Soap went on thursday afternoon" into the system and get an list of his/her whereabouts, but for targeted individuals, tracking without their permission has been available for some time.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
  13. Dupe of a dupe of a dupe. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Slashdot has covered this story before, many times, beginning at least as early as 2005.

  14. Re:Fighting the wrong battle by Nursie · · Score: 1

    "This is how surveillance societies like Britain tend to do it now. "

    Citation needed.

    Really, the UK has billions of cameras, but few people watching them and I'd be very, very surprised if they had anything approaching the level of sophistication you're talking about.

  15. hurf durf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just wrap it in tinfoil or brass screen.

  16. Passport RFID borders on criminal negligence IMHO by cheros · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I cannot imagine that even a SINGLE conversation with someone mildly conversant in basic security, no, just having common sense, would not have indicated that uncontrolled ID reading from a distance was a VERY VERY bad idea. It suggests to me that such a conversation was either not had, someone has a LOT of shares in RFID manufacturing or there is something else behind this rush to promote even more ID theft.

    You can read ID from a distance which means it's now possible to create hidden bombs that lie dormant until there are enough people of a certain nationality nearby, it's possible to clone an identity and I suspect it won't be long before you can edit the biometric, making the theft of your LIFE complete because of "the 'pjuter is always rite" syndrome.

    In the process other associated idiots are building up databases which are unnecessary (it works prefectly without) and which are a reversal of approach - normally your identity is only collected AFTER you have committed a crime, not BEFORE. You're now guilty until you prove it wasn't you who left a cloned identity behind. All of that without you noticing someone has been near to your passport, you no longer have control over who sees the data. Hello girls, welcome to stalking v2.

    Actually, if you want political emotional scare stories, as the EU has now made one passport per person mandatory, it's also "Hello kids, welcome to 'brief your local paedophile'".

    It would be really good if the clowns who dream up such stuff would be the first to suffer the consequences, all of them. Because I don't think they will learn otherwise - this is causing risk, not fixing identity issues. /rant

    --
    Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.
  17. Re:Fighting the wrong battle by digitalchinky · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Those billion cameras are primarily a reactive system, not proactive. While they were initially sold on the public as a crime prevention and safety thing, they don't exist that way any longer. I guess in many ways it is a good thing that there are just too many to be monitored in real time. This makes your simple trip to the store utterly irrelevant and not of interest to anyone - but if your trip happens to coincide with some idiot crashing his car in to the aforementioned store, knocking you down in the process, then someone, be it insurance, police, ambulance, or whatever, might dredge it up for review. All in all you and I are just lost in the noise while the only valuable signal makes the nightly news.

    RFID is a pretty good filter if your aim is to create a choke point (i.e. immigration counters) - you can file people past a scanner, snap off their picture without them knowing, have a drone somewhere do a comparison with the databased image, or run it through your super computer in the basement to do it for you.

  18. So what does work? by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

    If these RFID shields don't work, does anyone know something that does?

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    1. Re:So what does work? by maxume · · Score: 1

      theeddie55 says in another reply to vrmlguy that the video does not say anything about the linked product, it demonstrates that the protection built into passports is insufficient, and the description for the video (I'm on a modem and haven't watched it yet) says that the video demonstrates a better method of protection.

      So it looks like vrmlguy is a headless chicken. As I understand it, the various protection sleeves are just Faraday cages and are essentially impossible to circumvent.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:So what does work? by smaddox · · Score: 1

      Aluminum foil, and enough to be sure.
      .
      (Why does firefox's spellcheck only have the British spelling of 'aluminium'?)

    3. Re:So what does work? by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      If these RFID shields don't work, does anyone know something that does?

      An oven does. But the paper may get burned. Someone above suggested a rubber mallet, which I think is better

      Falcon

  19. Re:Passport RFID borders on criminal negligence IM by maxume · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The cards discussed in this article strictly provide a number, so they are just being used as a glorified barcode (maybe they have some security features that a barcode doesn't, but the guy scanning the numbers already knows how to bypass them, so they are irrelevant); a barcode is just as easy to link to a government database and introduces all the same problems with securing the database, so the only additional threat created by the RFID here is the ability to track the person holding the card (leakage of identity info is the same with a barcode, and there are no biometrics to edit on the card).

    Still, it doesn't seem like the chip adds anything, and it certainly sucks for people to be able to automatically identify the card (not the person, just the card) at a distance.

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  20. Mine is inside... by Kindaian · · Score: 1

    The anti-rfid wallet... ;)

  21. Big Brother Concerns? by madsheep · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well I am completely against the apparent weak encryption and their lack of shielding but I think the big brother concerns are a little overblown. I don't think this is part of some massive systems to track us. Unless the U.S. is setting up this massive trackng network on cruise ships and all over foreign countries... I don't think it will suck in much.. unless of course they enjoy getting receiving data from my passport that always reports that I am 1) at home or 2) on my way to the airport. Seriously.. what U.S. citizen carries their passport everywhere they go domestically?

    1. Re:Big Brother Concerns? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bet they would be interested to know if you were on your way to the airport to flee the country.

    2. Re:Big Brother Concerns? by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      Driver's licenses are next. Unless someone has a better explanation for the purpose of passport transmitters, I'd say they are a deliberate step on the slippery slope. "Passport" gets people thinking about foreigners and terrorists and planes!...and then hell, you might as well put them in other ID too. The next step of implanting the tags won't even be necessary, since the occasional camera can compare your face to the database to see if your ID is false.

      Either that or they're working on satellite tracking to monitor citizens' foreign movements.

    3. Re:Big Brother Concerns? by MasterNetHead · · Score: 1

      Most of us carry driver's licenses around 24/7 already. Its not too much of a stretch to imagine being required to carry your passport too, but even more likely is having RFIDs added to our driver's licenses. Not that I'm a conspiracy nut or anything, this just stinks of precedent.

    4. Re:Big Brother Concerns? by MasterNetHead · · Score: 1

      Oh an how many of you already carry around 1 or 2 RFID tags in your credit cards? That's already happened.

    5. Re:Big Brother Concerns? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Well I am completely against the apparent weak encryption and their lack of shielding but I think the big brother concerns are a little overblown.

      If you're not actually interested in this issue, why do you even bother to comment?

      I can TELL you're not actually interested, because you don't understand that the primary problem has nothing to do with our government, and has to do with the potential use of RFID tags to safely and clandestinely identify and track American targets in other countries, for purposes like the taking of hostages.

      The government already has vastly easier ways to track Americans using RFID that don't involve passports, which most of us don't carry with us anyway... many footwear manufacturers and basically all tire manufacturers are embedding RFID tags into shoes and tires, respectively, for the purpose of inventory tracking. In particular it should significantly speed up tire recalls, which happen somewhat frequently. Of course, this is also the ideal setup for tracking people and vehicles... You won't be reading anyone's footwear from inside their car, but once shoes and car are associated the two can be correlated backwards to find out where you've been, which is almost as useful as knowing where you are, not least because given sufficient history it can be used to figure out places you're likely to go.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Big Brother Concerns? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Seriously.. what U.S. citizen carries their passport everywhere they go domestically?

      Indeed. Mine lives in my safe unless actually required.
       
       

      Well I am completely against the apparent weak encryption and their lack of shielding but I think the big brother concerns are a little overblown.

      You're new here aren't you? Conjuring up complex big brother scenarios is practically the entire purpose of Slashdot. Seriously, I've seen less insane scenarios on actual tinfoil hat sites.

    7. Re:Big Brother Concerns? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are many frequent business travelers who as a matter of course always have their passports with them. It's NOT intuitive, but it's common.

    8. Re:Big Brother Concerns? by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      Seriously.. what U.S. citizen carries their passport everywhere they go domestically?

      Why does it have to be domestically? The person in TFA lived in the U.S., so he tried his experiment in a convenient local tourist area. But if they can read your passport from 20 feet away in San Francisco, they can do the same in Beijing, Moscow, or Caracas, too. And nobody has tried to read a passport that's locked inside a typical hotel safe yet, either -- what if that were possible?

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
  22. Re:Dupe of a dupe of a dupe. by Metasquares · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes, but the people in charge still haven't listened!

  23. Yes and no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I live in Finland and we do have a public healthcare system here. That doesn't mean that here wouldn't also be private healthcare available. Those who dislike the public system (which works pretty well but is underfunded so waiting lines can be hours long in any non non-emergency case) can go to the private clinics. In addition to competing with each other, private clinics also need to compete with the public health care. It sets some kind of a status quo of "If you don't manage to offer extremely good service, people will just use public healthcare".

    So I don't think that the wealthy do need to worry about potential for lower availability of care. Public healthcare just gives best of both worlds... In theory.

    Recently (within the past decade) right wing government has been trying to change the way that public healthcare works here. Instead of having doctors who work for the government they try to have government buy services from private companies. In practice this works horribly.

    Government buys from the company that offers services for cheapest but that lowers the quality. And even those companies have higher prices than what government would pay directly to the doctors as the companies try to make profit. So it is slowly changing from "The best of both worlds" to "The worst of both worlds".

    One example of this is a hospital near me (Peijas in Itä-Vantaa). It used to be managed by the government but then there was a decision to privatize (if that's a word) the emergency duty. Now, if you go there complaining that your chest hurts, you might still need to wait four hours in the lobby before a doctor sees you but if they deem that you need further care and send you to the main part of the hospital... You get EKGs taken, evaluations from several doctors and so on, all for completely free of charge. (Speaking from experience here.)

    So even with the "worst of both worlds" it works somehow (which is good because I really couldn't have been able to afford the treatments in a private clinic). I just fear what happens if the rest of the hospital services will be bought from private companies too.

    Public healthcare can be done very well or very poorly depending on how it is implemented.

    As for taxation... Yeah, it raises. Can't deny you there. As a rather decently earning programmer I pay nearly half of my wage as taxes (then again, that is more than free healthcare. It includes, among other things, that government funded my university education and insured my student loan). You are wrong to assume it will hurt the wealthy, though. It uses the people who don't use the services.

    Whether you are wealthy or not, having higher taxes that provide services that you use are fine. Higher taxes hurt those who rarely have to visit a doctor, they hurt those who don't go to an university and so on. Others would have had to pay that money anyways, it just wouldn't have gone to government but directly to the private companies that provide the services. And the result might not have been any better.

    1. Re:Yes and no by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      So if government is paying for your education why do you have a student loan?

      For myself personally I'd rather get taxed at 25% rather than 50% and be able to choose my health care.

    2. Re:Yes and no by slackbheep · · Score: 1

      Only problem is, if you ever need something major like a new kidney or whatever you'd better hope you've got that 25% of your income you weren't taxed for the last 10 years sitting in hand, or you might be in some trouble.

    3. Re:Yes and no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am not the same AC as the GP, but I can probarly answer the question. Here in Norway we also have free education (on all levels), but I still need a student loan, as I can't survive soly on knowledge and love.

      We get 40% as a schoolarship (if we pass exam), and 60% as a loan.
      Those money are needed to pay for rent and food but school is, as I said, free.

      After a 3 year education I have ~150k NOK in debt. To put that in perspective a avrage yearly salary for a beginning level programmer is ~400k NOK.

    4. Re:Yes and no by Hillman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, if it's like in Québec, we still have to pay for college. It's very subsidized, so we pay a little less than 2k$ a year. The loans are there so you can concentrate on your studies instead of working full time. Most people will work part time though.

      And we can choose our health care. The only difference is that the doctors are paid by the state instead of by me. Only my doctor can make health care decisions, not a faceless bureaucrat or a CS rep from an HMO. And because there's no administrative overhead(about 1% instead of 30% in the USA) it's less expensive.

      But I won't lie to you, if you have the sniffles and go to an emergency room, you're gonna wait a long time. You should go to a clinic(free also) for these minor conditions.

      English second language here, so don't mind the grammar/spelling....

    5. Re:Yes and no by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      As bad as private bureaucracies are, public bureaucracies are worse, at least in the US. In the US, a government entity gets funding based largely by how much they spent the previous year - and not in a way that incentivises efficiency. When an entity does not spend all of their budgeted money, not only do they not get to use that money in the current year (because they ran out of things to spend it on), that amount usually gets dropped from their budget for the next year! Which means if they don't need the money this year, but may need it next year or the year after, they find bullshit projects to waste the money on until the time comes when they actually need it! They don't even have rollover accounts to save up money in times of excess for when they may need to spend it. It's use it or lose it now and in the future. It incentivises inefficiency

      For this reason, the administrative overhead won't drop in the US if the health care system goes completely public like Canada's system, it will only rise. At best it will stay the same. After all, the second part of the equation is all those jobs! We can't lose those, no, everything must stay in place.

      A well run government system has the potential to be bar-none the most efficient option. But it never happens, and is oftentimes far less efficient than the private option. What the US seems to be headed for is government funded insurance, which keeps everything bad about the current system - insurance companies and HMOs - and also tacks on the high taxes of public health care.

      A friend of mine is fighting an insurance company (Blue Cross, I believe) for her asthma, she came close to dying once, it was extremely difficult to diagnose, but she is significantly healthier now. The insurance company is just refusing to pay some of the bills for BS reasons - like disagreeing with the diagnostic technology used! Judging by the way the US did MediCare, this problem will only get worse - the doctors won't be able to refuse so many customers and stay in business like they can with MediCare. They often refuse to use it since the government won't pay what a procedure costs and it is illegal for someone on MediCare to pay the difference. The new system will probably be that x100.

      It's going to suck.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    6. Re:Yes and no by Hillman · · Score: 1

      I'm curious as why bureaucracies in the US are worse than those in Canada? The situation you describe is very well present in Canada, maybe moreso because of the large size of our public sector.

    7. Re:Yes and no by SamuliZip · · Score: 1

      So if government is paying for your education why do you have a student loan?

      Living expenses, material costs, transportation, whatnot. In the bigger cities you still have to work to make it through, unless you get very lucky and find a very cheap place to live.

    8. Re:Yes and no by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      But I won't lie to you, if you have the sniffles and go to an emergency room, you're gonna wait a long time. You should go to a clinic(free also) for these minor conditions.

      Canadians sometimes have to come to the US for life saving treatments. Without some sort of price mechanism health care costs will eat too much of the economy and or lead to rationing.

    9. Re:Yes and no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For myself personally I'd rather get taxed at 25% rather than 50% and be able to choose my health care.

      Yeah that would be the best choice if it just affected you personally. But the public healthcare system benefits people other than yourself - the homeless, the jobless.. It makes your society as a whole better. If you are just looking at the short term tax benefits for yourself, you are just thinking about the problem selfishly.

    10. Re:Yes and no by Hillman · · Score: 1

      Yep. Our system isn't perfect. Those are fringe cases, that's why they make the news. Outliers don't define a system.

      And from the article you cited: "The bad news is I didn't have to wait for anything, because you don't have to wait when it's a serious issue," he said. Still, people can wait for months, or even years, for elective surgery."

      And I know something about that. My gf had troubles with her knee, she had to get surgery. She waited 16 month before she got it. It wasn't an urgent situation, just inconvenient. Now the situation is better and the average wait in Québec for elective surgery is 6 month. It was a choice, either she pays to get the operation right now (15k$) or she waits. She chose to wait. In Québec you can get a private insurance to cover certain procedures(cataracts, knee surgery, etc.), but no one does. It's too expensive for too little benefits.

    11. Re:Yes and no by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      For this reason, the administrative overhead won't drop in the US if the health care system goes completely public like Canada's system, it will only rise.

      Great! So the private system will be able to offer their insurance cheaper, and nothing will change. What's the problem?

      What the US seems to be headed for is government funded insurance, which keeps everything bad about the current system - insurance companies and HMOs - and also tacks on the high taxes of public health care.

      Says who? While the government will need to provide an initial pool of funds, there's no reason to believe the system won't become self-funding. It is an insurance pool, after all. Handled properly, the premiums of the members will cover the outlays.

      It's going to suck.

      And if it does, no one will use it, and then a republican administration will shut it down. No big deal. Honestly, why are you complaining so much? Just keep using your private insurance and laugh as those people on the government "teat" get screwed over by the system you're so convinced will suck. *shrug*

    12. Re:Yes and no by mjwx · · Score: 1

      For myself personally I'd rather get taxed at 25% rather than 50% and be able to choose my health care.

      I'd rather have the safety of knowing that I can afford decent health care no matter what happens to me. As the GP said, public health care fosters extra competition between private health care insurers. This works the same way in Australia, if an insurer cannot provide better health care then the public health care system (Medicare) then they will simply lose customers to the cheaper public health care. Also Medicare is declared as a separate line item on my tax return each year, as a full time Australian resident (365 days residing in Australia) with no private health insurance I pay under A$500 per year (out of my taxes of course), if I was not a resident for the full year or had private health cover then the amount I pay is reduced.

      Can you get health insurance in the US for US$400?

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    13. Re:Yes and no by Aceticon · · Score: 1

      In the last one or two decades there has been a movement to "liberalize" everything in Europe.

      The whole argument was that the Market is always better at allocating resources than the State. At the same time governments got one-off payments for each piece of state property they sold - which they use to beautify their budgets - and move some costs off-budget (the costs are still there, even bigger, but accounting tricks make them look smaller) through public-private partnerships and such.

      This was mostly done during the Decade of Deceit where lots of imaginary money was being made and opinion makers in Democratic nations were singing praises to the Anglo-Saxon model (where most of that imaginary money was being made) and wanted to emulate it.

      Hopefully the events of the last year have put a stop to the blind belief in Market Efficiency working for everything (the Market really only works well for some markets and is prone to herd-mentality) and has made it really clear how much the Anglo-Saxon model was based in illusory profits (for the next 20+ years we'll all be paying for the excesses of the last decade through higher taxes and lower public service).

      The question now is whether parties/voters will move towards a balanced approach to capitalism or whether we'll have another credit/banking bubble burst in 10-20 years time (judging by the kind of weak/show-only laws being passed by governments to constrain banking excesses, I bet on the last)

    14. Re:Yes and no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My effective tax rate in the USA is:

      %
      28.00 (federal)
      09.00 (Local)
      10.00 (401k~=retirement)
      05.00 (for my children's college fund)
      06.20 (social security)
      01.45 (Medicare)

      59.65 %

      Even with this university tuition will be beyond most people's budget and most bankruptcies are due to health cost issues. We Americans live in a country that cares little about the welfare of its citizens.

    15. Re:Yes and no by jbrandv · · Score: 1

      You are missing ALL of the other taxes we have to pay in the USA.
      Gas tax
      Liquor tax
      Sales tax
      Tobacco tax
      Road tax (Toll roads are not included in Gas Tax)
      Phone tax
      Internet tax
      etc.
      etc.
      I figure I am taxed at about 70-75% when you include everything.

    16. Re:Yes and no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't have a problem with taxation. It's the foundation of civilization and essential. Although our effective tax rate is higher than many European countries we get far fewer benefits.

    17. Re:Yes and no by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      Your 10% into retirement isn't a tax.

      Social security may very well be, since it's highly unlikely that anyone working today will get the expected return on investment out of it.

  24. tracking by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yeah, and I'm less concerned about passports being counterfeited than I am about people carrying US passports in other countries being targeted for mugging. Those passports are valuable, you know.

  25. I wonder.. by dbcad7 · · Score: 1

    If these were passports or passport cards ? .. Most people here don't carry their passport around with them all the time.. However those new cheapo passport cards (for Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean, and Bermuda) are much smaller and more portable and I can see people keeping them in their wallet.

    I realize that both are vulnerable.. Sadly I have to get a passport renewal in 2010, and not looking forward to having a chipped one. I'll be getting the full one again (can see the point in limiting travel possibilities) .. I wonder what percentage of passports are the cheaper one ?

    --
    waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
    1. Re:I wonder.. by maxume · · Score: 1

      Your question is answered right in the summary. Clearly even.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:I wonder.. by anonieuweling · · Score: 1

      Some people do carry passports and ID-whatever around all the time.
      Some are concerned with the lack of care taken while implementing what others wanted.
      Why not distribute tin-foil envelopes?

  26. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  27. hmmm... by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

    If only these same people who secured my passport were in charge of my healthcare as well, then everything would be great!

    We live in a country that is protected by a military funded by the government
    If my house is on fire, the fire is managed by a fire department funded by the government
    Law enforcement is provided by a police or sheriff's department funded by the government
    I drive to work on roads whose maintenance are funded by the government
    I was educated at public schools funded by the government

    (just to name a few government services that are entitled to US citizens) If you would rather not have any of those services, there may be countries on other continents where you can opt to not have them. But these are all different departments of government; why you would assume that any of them - or the department in charge of passports - would be connected to a health care system that hasn't even been proposed is beyond me.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    1. Re:hmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We live in a country who's military funded by the federal government "protects" other countries.

      If my house is on fire, the fire is managed by a fire department funded by my municipal government

      Law enforcement is provided by a police or sheriff's department funded by my city or county government

      I drive to work on roads whose maintenance are funded by my county or state government

      I was educated at public schools funded by my county and state government

      Fixed that for you.

    2. Re:hmmm... by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      If only these same people who secured my passport were in charge of my healthcare as well, then everything would be great!

      We live in a country that is protected by a military funded by the government
      If my house is on fire, the fire is managed by a fire department funded by the government
      Law enforcement is provided by a police or sheriff's department funded by the government
      I drive to work on roads whose maintenance are funded by the government
      I was educated at public schools funded by the government

      (just to name a few government services that are entitled to US citizens) If you would rather not have any of those services, there may be countries on other continents where you can opt to not have them. But these are all different departments of government; why you would assume that any of them - or the department in charge of passports - would be connected to a health care system that hasn't even been proposed is beyond me.

      First, I think you're confusing terms here. Some of those things you mention are mandated by the Constitution as *duties* of the *federal* government, and not "entitlements".

      Next, there are the various things you mentioned that are either duties or services provided by local, state, county, or city government which is under more direct control of the local population. Many of those same things are also paid for, and their permissions for the taxes to pay for them, given (or not) by the local populace.

      A universal health plan (at least the ones being considered) are all federal programs, the same kind of federal program as FEMA or Freddie Mac/Fannie May. Imagine how well FEMA did with water distribution in the 'Dome in the aftermath of Katrina, or at how well Fannie May/Freddie Mac were run.

      These are the same type people, and in many cases would be some of the same people (think Congressmen & high-level departmental bureaucrats) that would be in charge of designing and operating a universal health system.

      It will simply be used as a way to drain even more money from the economy for the government to spend and expand it's power and reach, and also as another vector to exert control over the populace.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    3. Re:hmmm... by st0rmshad0w · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      We live in a country who's military funded by the federal government "protects" other countries.

      If my house is on fire, the fire is managed by a fire department funded by my municipal government

      Law enforcement is provided by a police or sheriff's department funded by my city or county government

      I drive to work on roads whose maintenance are funded by my county or state government

      I was educated at public schools funded by my county and state government

      Fixed that for you.

      Idiot. All those things are funded by YOUR TAXES. You think "the government" has like a night-stocking job at Wal-mart to earn the cash it spends?

    4. Re:hmmm... by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      We live in a country that is protected by a military funded by the government

      That is one of the few purposes of the federal government.

      If my house is on fire, the fire is managed by a fire department funded by the government
      Law enforcement is provided by a police or sheriff's department funded by the government
      I drive to work on roads whose maintenance are funded by the government
      I was educated at public schools funded by the government

      Yea, by local and state governments. Property tax pays, or should pay, for primary and secondary education, fire protection, and law enforcement. Road building and maintenance should be paid for with tax on miles driven.

      But these are all different departments of government

      Almost all of which are not authorized by the Constitution of the USA. The Constitution is not a list of things the government must do but is a limit on what it can do. If it does not authorize something the federal government can not do it. The 10th Amendment - Powers of the States and People even states that, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

      Falcon

    5. Re:hmmm... by stine2469 · · Score: 1

      Awww, you had to go and explain where taxes go.....

    6. Re:hmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. ...

      The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

      welfare: physical and mental health and happiness

      Or from your own source: welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being.

      I'm not American, but it seems your constitution demands your Federal government look after the healthcare of its people.

  28. You pay for other's poor choices as it is by Atmchicago · · Score: 1

    Exactly. It's sad to say, but most people are too stupid to save up for the right things. They'd rather buy that new HD television now than worry about their broken leg five years from now. A public health care system increases preventative care (which is cheaper and more effective) and is a way to force people to save for emergencies, rather than going to the emergency room. So if you're smart enough to know how to manage your health, just be glad not as many of your tax dollars will be going to idiots in the ER anymore.

    I'd much rather have the choice of health care plan (as Obama intends) and pay less overall.

    --

    You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it dissolve.

    1. Re:You pay for other's poor choices as it is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Read the plan: As obama intends, you will always pay for the govt insurance (through increased taxes). If you want your choice, you have to pay for it as well as the govt insurance. *You*. Not your employer, as they will be dumping you into the govt insurance. And you can't deduct the costs anymore (the employer used to be able to deduct the costs; this is likely to go away as well).

      So, for real health care, looks like you're going to have to take one of those "medical vacations" to South Africa or India--or wait 2 years for the knee surgery...

    2. Re:You pay for other's poor choices as it is by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      A public health care system increases preventative care

      If you think heath care is expensive, wait until it's free. And to many people it is free if they do not have to hand over cash or a check or credit card when they visit their doc. When people don't have to pay for health care and medical tests, many will demand a bunch of tests which are not needed which will drive up prices. On the other hand people who pay out of pocket are more likely to watch where their money goes. Because I did not have insurance and could not afford it, I didn't have any medical care for more than 6 years. Once I finally did get insurance coverage and started getting medical care I asked about costs. I specifically told my doc and a therapist she wanted me to see that I would not fill a prescription if I had to pay more than a certain amount out of pocket and asked for cheaper drugs.

      I'd much rather have the choice of health care plan (as Obama intends) and pay less overall.

      But does he? I haven't seen any specific plan for health care from Obama. As of 57 minutes ago Obama doesn't have a plan yet, at least one that's been released.

      Falcon

    3. Re:You pay for other's poor choices as it is by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      When people don't have to pay for health care and medical tests, many will demand a bunch of tests which are not needed

      And they won't get them because the doctor will tell them "no". Yes, believe it or not, they're allowed to do that.

      Because I did not have insurance and could not afford it, I didn't have any medical care for more than 6 years.

      And thus you demonstrate why a public system is a *good* thing. For all we know, you've ignored potentially serious symptoms for years, and will discover later a serious condition that, if caught early, would've been much cheaper to treat. You are, quite literally, the perfect example of why a private system is a really fucking bad idea.

      But does he? I haven't seen any specific plan for health care from Obama.

      So? If he doesn't have a plan, nothing will happen. No big deal.

      Seriously... relax, dude. The end of the world is not, in fact, nigh.

    4. Re:You pay for other's poor choices as it is by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      When people don't have to pay for health care and medical tests, many will demand a bunch of tests which are not needed

      And they won't get them because the doctor will tell them "no". Yes, believe it or not, they're allowed to do that.

      If only that were true. Unfortunately because doctors are afraid of being being sued they will run excessive tests. It is called defensive medicine.

      Because I did not have insurance and could not afford it, I didn't have any medical care for more than 6 years.

      And thus you demonstrate why a public system is a *good* thing.

      No, through no fault of my own, I was disabled. Under a just or fair system those who were responsible for my disability would have been held accountable not taxpayers. Eventually the responsible did pay my medical expenses from the accident, but because I may now disabled taxpayers are on the hook for the rest of my life. It's like this, you cause harm you should be made to pay. Not those who had nothing to do with causing the harm.

      But does he? I haven't seen any specific plan for health care from Obama.

      So? If he doesn't have a plan, nothing will happen. No big deal.

      First I point out after you say Obama has a plan that in fact he does not, so now you say it doesn't matter. You change things when it's pointed out you're wrong.

      Seriously... relax, dude. The end of the world is not, in fact, nigh.

      But those who worship at the alter of government say just that. Unless government does something only the rich will afford health care. I suppose you're now going to say that that does not matter either now.

      Falcon

    5. Re:You pay for other's poor choices as it is by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      If only that were true. Unfortunately because doctors are afraid of being being sued they will run excessive tests. It is called defensive medicine.

      Uh, that's no the same thing at all.

      What you complained about was people taking advantage of a public insurance system by demanding more tests.

      What you cited is "defensive medicine", the practice of doctors *choosing* to run more tests in order to avoid lawsuits.

      The former is not the same as the latter. So you're either deliberately misrepresenting your position, or you don't know what it is you're objecting to in the first place.

      So, please... make up your mind.

      No, through no fault of my own, I was disabled.

      And you totally, utterly missed my point. Congratulations!

      My point was simply that going without healthcare for six years was a *really stupid thing to do*. Why? Because it drastically increases the chances that a condition could go undiagnosed, thus increasing the long term costs of treatment.

      Or, to put it another way: the fact that you chose to go six years without a checkup demonstrates beautifully the fundamental problem with US-style healthcare: it makes healthcare reactive, rather than proactive, because people can't afford the costs of the latter.

      First I point out after you say Obama has a plan that in fact he does not, so now you say it doesn't matter. You change things when it's pointed out you're wrong.

      No, you once again misunderstand. What I was saying is that whether or not Obama has a plan shouldn't matter *to you*. Obviously it'll matter for all the people who lack coverage. But for you, who apparently bows to "the altar" of the free market, why do you care either way? Hell, you should be pulling a Rush, right now, and praying he fails!

    6. Re:You pay for other's poor choices as it is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd much rather have the choice of health care plan (as Obama intends)...

      Bwahahaha!

      Pwned!

    7. Re:You pay for other's poor choices as it is by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      What you complained about was people taking advantage of a public insurance system by demanding more tests.

      What you cited is "defensive medicine", the practice of doctors *choosing* to run more tests in order to avoid lawsuits.

      And when a doctor's patient says he or she think they need some test the doctor will order it as a defense measure. If they don't they may find themself being sued. Heck Denzel Washington's 2002 movie "John Q" had this in it. John Q's son had a bad heart which a simple test would have shown. But because they had an HMO the doc saved money by not ordering the test. Well the boy collapsed as he was running to second base after hitting the baseball in a game and was rushed to the hospital. Ends up in order to live he needs a heart transplant which, get a load of this, is an elective surgery.

      The former is not the same as the latter. So you're either deliberately misrepresenting your position, or you don't know what it is you're objecting to in the first place.

      It is defensive if a doctor orders tests after the patient say they think they need the test. If a patient says they think they need the test but the doc does not order it then the doc may be sued. I don't know if you saw the movie "John Q" but because a doctor in it does not order a test John Q ends up taking hostages in the hospital emergency room and demands his son get the transplant he needs to live.

      Or, to put it another way: the fact that you chose to go six years without a checkup demonstrates beautifully the fundamental problem with US-style healthcare: it makes healthcare reactive, rather than proactive, because people can't afford the costs of the latter.

      I didn't see a doc in 6 years was because there is no free market in medicine and health care prices are high. Prices will be even higher when health care is free.

      First I point out after you say Obama has a plan that in fact he does not, so now you say it doesn't matter. You change things when it's pointed out you're wrong.

      No, you once again misunderstand. What I was saying is that whether or not Obama has a plan shouldn't matter *to you*. Obviously it'll matter for all the people who lack coverage. But for you, who apparently bows to "the altar" of the free market, why do you care either way? Hell, you should be pulling a Rush, right now, and praying he fails!

      Yeap, what I thought, When it's pointed out you're wrong you change the rules. In fact you did not say "whether or not Obama has a plan shouldn't matter *to you*". Here's what you said: "I'd much rather have the choice of health care plan (as Obama intends) and pay less overall.". There is no "whether" or "matter" in it.

      I will not reply to any more trolls on this thread.

      Falcon

    8. Re:You pay for other's poor choices as it is by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Here's what you said:

      ROFL, and you misread a *third* time. Honestly, you desperately need to work on your reading comprehension.

      Hint: I am not, in fact, Atmchicago.

  29. Here, let me fix that for you by Dachannien · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Meanwhile, Homeland Security has been promoting broad use of RFID because its own advisory committee on data integrity and privacy warned that radio-tagged IDs have the potential to allow "widespread surveillance of individuals" without their knowledge or consent.

    Fixed.

  30. Re:staying anonymious by GigaplexNZ · · Score: 1

    Security through obscurity works every time.

    Or not.

  31. Re:Fighting the wrong battle by GigaplexNZ · · Score: 1

    The reason you're told not to smile is because the P.R. software has a harder time dealing with it - same with glasses wearers.

    So if I want to go blow something up, and not get picked up, all I have to do is smile?

  32. Ummm...your cellphone... by bartwol · · Score: 1
    So if I can get my RF scanning equipment within 20 feet of you, I can get the passport office's unique identifier for you. (Where can I use that identifier besides the passport office?) As a tracking strategy, one scanning device every 20 feet is going to be an expensive grid.

    Good thing the whole country's already wired for cellphone service and service providers share connectivity in support of roaming. Lord knows how many people can track your whereabouts right now.

    Oops...I left my passport at home today.

    Slashdot...if it's technical, it must be stuff that matters?

    1. Re:Ummm...your cellphone... by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Just put the personal RFID chip in the cellphone, which nowadays most people have had surgically implanted in their ears. Problem solved!

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  33. Re:Fighting the wrong battle by internewt · · Score: 1

    I severely doubt we (currently) have facial recognition hooked up to the network of CCTV in this country, but what we do have is ANPR - automatic number plate recognition - all over the place.

    There are very obvious cameras around that point clearly at the lanes on major roads which are logging all vehicles using major routes. I should think ANPR also gets hooked up to existing CCTV infrastructure too.

    And the police seem to routinely have ANPR in their cars these days too. Well, maybe not the "panda cars" that get used for day to day pig work (runs to the doughnut shop and back, for example), but the traffic cars do. Watch any recent UK cop show (like <accent="Manc">Road Wars</accent>) and you will see them using their ANPR. The police cruise around looking for people to ticket (usually no seatbelts or something minor - you know, dangerous criminals), whilst the cameras in their vehicles are reading every numberplate they see. The machine then alerts the tax collectors^W^W police if a car is less than perfect. So any problem with insurance, car registration, owner's licence, road tax and the car will get pulled over. The ANPR system queries a bunch of databases in real time to do this.

    What I really don't like is that more than likely the police car's system records the numberplates it sees, but it will no doubt also record the police car's location (from GPS), the direction the police car was going, and the time/date. With this data, along with the static ANPR data, is spelling the end of private travel by car in the UK.

    Numberplates over here are pretty standardised, so I guess ANPR is relatively easy to implement compared to facial recognition. But I bet as soon as facial recognition is even slightly reliable it will be retro fitted to everything it can be. Though thinking about it, even if facial recognition doesn't work fully yet it would still be possible to record faces along with location+date+time. Google's streetview is able to tell what a face is, so there isn't much to stop similar happening through a CCTV network. And once facial recognition is reliable the existing data can be run through the system.

    When I got a new passport a year or 2 ago, I had a new photo taken and I got the shop to save the photo onto a USB stick. From now on I will be submitting the same photo whenever a photo is needed for something.... at some point I need to get a new driving licence as I still have my 10+ year old paper one even though plastic licences with a photo have been standard for probably 9 years. When I got the photo done I hadn't had a haircut or shave for 6 months either, and I read all the rules about passport photos - black and white photos are still allowed! So my RFID passport has a picture in it that looks like it was taken in the mid-70s! Passport control at Gatwick airport didn't seem too bothered when I used it there, once I said "don't worry mate, it is me".

    --
    Car analogies break down.
  34. Guess RFID was a dumb choice for passports by physburn · · Score: 1
    The designers should have known, and any RFID system, can be read without the owner knowing it, making it a security risk. Bad choice of technology from the outset.

    --

    Privacy vs Surveillance Feed @ Feed Distiller

  35. Okay.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It says it grabbed the "Serial number" - not all the passport information.
    Is the serial number even the same thing as the passport number, or is it just the serial number of the RFID chip?

    Is that even necessarily a passport? Could it be something else using similar RFID technology they picked up?

  36. Removal/blocking by moxley · · Score: 1

    I need to get a passport soon, but this issue kind of concerns me - people who think those of us who are concerned are being overly paranoid just don't get it - just because there isn't anything disturbing happening with these things right now at this moment (that we know of) doesn't mean that we know things will remain copacetic in the future...Once the apparatus for widespread monitoring/tracking is in place, it's in place - it isn't a good or a bad thing, it's a tool that can be used in either manner.

    I have heard about RFID shields, but have heard various concerns about their effectiveness.

    I am wondering how these passports are actually constructed. Could the tag be removed when you don't want it there and re-inserted when you need it there?

    Then again, some people may feel it's stupid to worry about such a thing when you carry a cell phone that has a GPS chip in it, and there may be some truth to that; only, my cell phone can be turned off and doesn't come directly from a government and it's not mandated that I carry it for identification when I travel internationally..

  37. tourists by 4d3fect · · Score: 0

    Yet another reason --as if you NEEDED another reason-- to stay out of that hellhole.

  38. Re:Dupe of a dupe of a dupe. by GuyWithLag · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There's even a YA novel (Little Brother) by Doctorow that has this issue as a plot point; somehow I doubt that the people in charge are going to read it...

  39. Re:Fighting the wrong battle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You don't have this in the USA? Waaaay to go. Thanks to the new telecommunications data retention laws in the EU this it will become possible ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_data_retention#European_Union ) to track every single EU citiziens life 6 months to 2 years (depending on the home countries implementation of the law) into the past.

    If you carry around a cellphone or use any other kind of communcations device your positional data will be saved. And just to prevent any misunderstandings, this data is saved for anybody, no need to be suspicions.

  40. Sell them with the sheath by gurps_npc · · Score: 1

    Would it be all that hard for the US government to raise the price $5 and include a blocking sheath?

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  41. Easy fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Wrap your passport in aluminium foil.
    Just do not walk thru the metal detector with that. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjXkOplqrWo)

  42. 'even though' should read 'because' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    "Meanwhile, Homeland Security has been promoting broad use of RFID even though its own advisory committee on data integrity and privacy warned that radio-tagged IDs have the potential to allow "widespread surveillance of individuals" without their knowledge or consent." -> 'even though'?! Should read 'because'.

  43. Re:RFID Shield company seems clueless by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

    Many smart cards are dual purpose, and have RFID along with it. I'm actually surprised whenever I come accross an RFID card that is not also a smart card. If you read their descriptions a little closer, you'll notice that they are targeting employees working for companies with just such smart cards. That logo is something any smart card user will recognize. It's also a really really good idea to have something other than just wireless to read the card if you are using it for anything more than a door pass.

    See sig.

    --
    Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
  44. Anti X-Ray Film Bags? by RotateLeftByte · · Score: 1

    As they are designed to stop Electomagnetic Radiation coming in then I would guess that they could ork to stop the RFID responses from getting out.

    --
    I'd rather be riding my '63 Triumph T120.
  45. These aren't passports by Electros · · Score: 4, Informative

    Just to clarify, these are passport cards which are a hard plastic card that can only be used to travel between Canada the US and Mexico. The "Real" passports also have an rfid in them but they have a faraday cage built into the cover so they can only be picked up when opened.

    1. Re:These aren't passports by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "Real" passports also have an rfid in them but they have a faraday cage built into the cover so they can only be picked up when opened.

      You can look up tests that have been made which show that you can still read the rfid when they're closed just fine. Which shouldn't surprise anyone: a Faraday cage prevents signals from reaching a point inside the cage, but they don't prevent (or even interfere in the slightest) with signals going out.

    2. Re:These aren't passports by jpallas · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not only are PASS cards not passports, but they use a completely different technology. This story is pretty much debunked at http://www.rfidjournal.com/blog/entry/4615.

    3. Re:These aren't passports by Solandri · · Score: 1

      When I got my new Nexus card it came with a foil case (looks like fairly thick copper foil) and documentation explaining the case is a security measure to prevent ID theft by remote reading of the RFID tag in the card. I've waved it in front of the Nexus readers with and without the case, and it works (at least on those readers). It's actually pretty handy as it's barely bigger than the card, adds almost no thickness, and prevents the card from getting all scratched up like my credit cards.

      Do the passport cards not come with these foil sheaths? Or is this just a matter of people ignoring instructions and not using the case.

    4. Re:These aren't passports by Gojira+Shipi-Taro · · Score: 1

      Mine came with the Faraday cage sheathe and instructions. I've a feeling it's a "I don't have to read that piece of paper" thing.

      --
      "Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
    5. Re:These aren't passports by amateur6 · · Score: 1

      Thank you for the debunking link; I was starting to drink the wharrgarbl!

  46. Re:Dupe of a dupe of a dupe. by HiThere · · Score: 1

    What do you mean? They implemented it didn't they?

    You just don't understand(accept?) their motives.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  47. tracking by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    You forget that they themselves will be just as trackable. As a politician I would be very worried about that.

    Politicians should be more trackable than citizens. Politicians are supposed to work for, and be accountable to, citizens not the other way around.

    So either they really don't care, or they just have not clue. What do you think it is? ;)

    Both I bet. Some probably don't know what uses can be made of with IDs and passports with embedded chips. And some of those who do probably think they're immune.

    Falcon

  48. ..If you voted for Comrade Obama by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    check back with me in a couple years.. I'm betting you won't like him then...

    I cringed as I voted for Obama. But as I said during the campaign McCain scared and Hillary terrified me. I was hoping that at least Obama would take the advise of some economists of the Chicago school of economics.

    Falcon

    1. Re:..If you voted for Comrade Obama by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I happily voted for Obama. It's the other nazis still in office you need to worry about.
      Obama is just another guy like you and I, hard at the job of trying to make America and the world a better place for sane people.

  49. Not so much of a concern, until... by busydoingnothing · · Score: 1

    ...he writes a How-To and puts it up online. That's when I'd expect people to really take notice, and those in charge may think, "Oh, maybe that wasn't such a great idea."

    Then again, we Americans as a whole really haven't given a shit about our privacy rights for the last eight years (or more), so why start now?

  50. Do not blame the users for usage by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    blame the designer for not putting it in the design.

    Before blaming the designers, blame politicians first for requiring chips and RFID.

    Falcon

  51. widespread surveillance of individuals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Meanwhile, Homeland Security has been promoting broad use of RFID even though its own advisory committee on data integrity and privacy warned that radio-tagged IDs have the potential to allow "widespread surveillance of individuals" without their knowledge or consent.'"

    Meanwhile, Homeland Security has been promoting broad use of RFID because its own advisory committee on data integrity and privacy warned that radio-tagged IDs have the potential to allow "widespread surveillance of individuals" without their knowledge or consent.'"

    There, fixed that for ya.

  52. health care by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    in the US there are typically around 12 Doctors involved in the average Americans healthcare. have you ever been to a doctors office?

    I last went to my Doc's office 3 days ago, on Thursday and I had 2 different appointments. Next Thursday I have 2 more appoints. Each of these appoints are with specialists, counselors or therapists who cost less than my doctor does. I am both disabled and a diabetic, yet I doubt I'll see half of your dozen docs this year. You'd have to go back more than 10 years before you can count 10 docs I've seen in an official capacity.

    having worked in the medical field as a healthcare professional for a while i've seen firsthand the fiasco that is the US heathcare system. sorry folks, you arent getting "the best healthcare in the world" not even close. in fact

    http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

    the US fares pretty abysmally.

    France, which is listed number 1 in your list, is still having trouble with "runaway health-care inflation". Canada, which comes in 8 places before the US, still has people coming to the US for surgeries. For those who can afford it the US has about the best medical care in the world. Of course in part because of, and in part caused by, medical tourism other nations are catching up. Why have surgery in the US when you can have it done in India quicker and cheaper? Ah, a freer market.

    Falcon

  53. Article can't decide which fear it is mongering by jpallas · · Score: 1
    I'm not sure what point TFA (the Fox article) is trying to make, but it jumps all over the map and pretty much throws everything at the wall to see what sticks. For example, "making sure everyone carries an RFID tag linked to a biometric data file" is certainly scary sounding, but what does the biometric data have to do with tracking people's locations?

    And if RFID tags are easily copied, isn't that a good thing? It will discourage attempts to use them for surveillance.

    The comparison of RFID tags and Social Security numbers is entertaining, but the risk with SSNs is largely because they are treated as if they are secret when they are not. (Okay, they've also been overused as a primary key because too many public and private organizations were too lazy to generate their own unique ids, which does make it easier to aggregate information *once you have access to it*.)

    The article refers to "Paget's cloning experiment." But it doesn't actually say that any cloning was involved, only reading at a distance. Is cloning as easy as reading? I don't know, and neither does the article's author, I would guess.

  54. Whether you are wealthy or not, by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    having higher taxes that provide services that you use are fine.

    No it isn't. Why should I work harder and or longer when my taxes go up? Raising taxes discourages people from working. It also discourages people from investing, and investing improves the economy. The more invested the more jobs are created which raises wages.

    Falcon

  55. health insurance by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    Only problem is, if you ever need something major like a new kidney or whatever you'd better hope you've got that 25% of your income you weren't taxed for the last 10 years sitting in hand, or you might be in some trouble.

    That money could be used to pay for health insurance.

    Falcon

  56. Re:Passport RFID borders on criminal negligence IM by adolf · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I wrote about RFID landmines here on Slashdot, about five years ago.

    It's nice to see that someone else besides me is sufficiently realistic to understand that this can be a real problem. And it's cheap: I don't know what RFID standard passports are using, but various readers on Ebay don't seem to creep much above the $50 mark. Add a microcontroller and some code (which, of course, can be open-sourced amongst other terrorist organizations), along with a little supporting hardware, and you've got yourself a trigger for a device for less than, say, $200 and a few days/weeks of study by an aptly-minded person.

    That $200 isn't much money at all, even for a third-world organization, for an attack which is nearly guaranteed to kill one or more civilians of any country which institutes standardized RFID identification. And the best part is, they get to pick and choose which country is the enemy this week when deploying the things.

    I, for one, am not very happy about this.

  57. Metallized Shielding Bags by process · · Score: 1

    Metallized shielding bags, the ones computer components often are delivered in.

    You ought to have some lying around, right?

    Note that not all anti-static bags are shielded, but usually the ones for RAM and HD have a metal film that effectively creates a faraday cage.

    They're the shiny ones. ;)

    I learned this when working with RFID used for registering cars passing at tollbooths, the chips and their containers needed to be shielded for transportation to a POS that was on the other side of a tollbooth.

    Better for sticking your passport in, less practical for hats.

    --
    computers let you make more mistakes faster, with the possible exception of handguns and tequila.
  58. Two way communication? by bigtrike · · Score: 1

    Doesn't the radio frequency request need to reach the RFID chip in order for it to send a signal back out?

  59. And I know something about that. by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    My gf had troubles with her knee, she had to get surgery. She waited 16 month before she got it. It wasn't an urgent situation, just inconvenient. Now the situation is better and the average wait in Québec for elective surgery is 6 month. It was a choice, either she pays to get the operation right now (15k$) or she waits.

    And I know something about how it is in the US. More than 10 years ago I was a college student without permanent employment, part or full tyme, and without health or medical insurance. One day after my classes I was hit while riding my bike. Despite having no way to pay I was medevaced by helicopter to the hospital. I was in the hospital a few weeks, part of that tyme while in a coma I was then moved to a rehab house for rehabilitation for a few more weeks. When I left there I moved into my mother's house and lived there while going to the hospital for more therapy.

    All together my medical bills came to more than $120,000 and neither the docs nor the hospital was guaranteed they would be paid. More than 10 years later I still have a disability, so I receive government aid. I get Social Security Income and Medicare. However instead of the taxpayers being stuck paying, I believe the employer of the person who hit me, he was working while driving a company vehicle should have been required to pay.

    Falcon

    1. Re:And I know something about that. by Hillman · · Score: 1

      Here we have a "no-fault" system. If you get hit by a car, you cannot sue the driver for damages. But the state will sue the driver in criminal court(I think that part is the same in the USA). But sometime it really sucks, because some very bad and reckless drivers should be sued for all they've got. On the other hand, if it's really an accident, you won't be sued by grieving relatives and you won't have to spend a fortune defending yourself.

      Why would the employer should pay? While I understand that he's responsible for the employee, he cannot control the employee all the time. If the employer is always responsible, it means he must control his employees to make sure they don't cause traffic accidents. That opens the door to a lot of scary things that are against about every one of your constitutional rights...

      Why would I start a business if one employee can wreck my business if he doesn't behave correctly? Unless you can prove it's because of the company(too much work, overstressed employees, etc.) or the vehicle(bad breaks, low visibility, etc.) that the person hit you, then the person should pay, not the company.

  60. Here we have a "no-fault" system. by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    And no responsibility either?

    If you get hit by a car, you cannot sue the driver for damages. But the state will sue the driver in criminal court(I think that part is the same in the USA).

    I've never heard of the state suing the driver for damages, but the injured can. That's how the medical bills were paid. Unfortunately they didn't have enough insurance coverage to take care of me the rest of my life. That would be a problem whether the injured party or the government sued.

    Why would the employer should pay?

    It's called responsibility. If the employer had tried to check into employees but didn't find any warning then I'd agree they shouldn't be on the hook. I'd instead hold the person who drove responsible. However the person who hit me had a record of trouble. He left his own state and moved to mine because his state issued an arrest warrant in his name. He had caused accidents before, and he had been taken to the hospital more than once. He was a diabetic but did not take care of his diabetes.

    Why would I start a business if one employee can wreck my business if he doesn't behave correctly?

    I can say the same about starting a business in Europe. The number 1 country in health care rankings in the previous link was France. A few years ago there were widespread riots in France by the youth. Why did they riot? Because the government was going to make it easier for employers to fire employees under the age of 26, right now it's hard to fire them. My sister's a CPA, Certified Public Accountant, who along with friends started their own accounting business. In doing so they created jobs for others. I doubt she would have started the business if she couldn't fire bad employees easily. It seems that under European rules businesses almost go bankrupt before being able to fire bad employees.

    Falcon

    1. Re:Here we have a "no-fault" system. by Hillman · · Score: 1

      And no responsibility either?

      No, if it's reckless driving or other criminal behavior, then the crown will sue in criminal court. It's a societal choice we made, like all choices they have drawbacks. And like all systems, there are freeloaders...

      I agree with you, we must be able to fire bad employees. I've worked with my share of bad employees, and nothing is worst than working with morons.

  61. Re:Dupe of a dupe of a dupe. by kamapuaa · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    And even if they do start to read it, they'll never make it more than a few pages into that pile of crap.

    --
    Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
  62. Re:Passport RFID borders on criminal negligence IM by Tuoqui · · Score: 1

    Simple, leave your passport in the hotel's vault and/or your room's safe.

    --
    09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
    +2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
  63. Re:Passport RFID borders on criminal negligence IM by Builder · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You've obviously never travelled to a dodgy African country - there is NO way that you trust anyone to hold your passport as it's your only way out when the shit hits the fan.

    Plus, theft is rife even in the 'nicer' hotels in some of these shitholes.

  64. Re:Dupe of a dupe of a dupe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Finland, Electronic Frontier Finland donated copies of Orwell's 1984 to members of the parliament, the ministers, and (finnish) members of the europarlament this summer. Now if only one of them actually read the book...

  65. Solution? by nacho_dh · · Score: 1

    Can't you solve the problem in just one minute using a microwave oven? Would that be illegal?

    --
    The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
  66. Re:Dupe of a dupe of a dupe. by GuyWithLag · · Score: 1

    It's a warning, not an instruction manual! - Orwell

  67. The Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just insert the RFID emitting credential into a slip-on Faraday Cage and you will be shielded from the enemy.

  68. !Bug - Feature! by 2obvious4u · · Score: 1

    Meanwhile, Homeland Security has been promoting broad use of RFID even though its own advisory committee on data integrity and privacy warned that radio-tagged IDs have the potential to allow "widespread surveillance of individuals" without their knowledge or consent.

    This is not a bug, its a feature.
    Not only that, it was part of the design requirements.

  69. credit cards by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    Some years ago my credit card issuer stopped using them because the usefulness didn't justify the expense. Now if I want, such as to order something online, my issuer will issue a one tyme use credit card number.

    Who is your issuer? Mine stopped doing that years ago, and I'd like to find someone who still does.

    Well, I don't know if the company does it anymore. Late last year or early this year Chase Manhattan took over my credit card issuer.

    Falcon

  70. Re:Passport RFID borders on criminal negligence IM by adolf · · Score: 1

    How in the world will doing this protect you while traveling from A to B?

    Not everyone who travels lives in a hotel. They might sleep in one from time to time, but the rest time they've got all of their immediate possessions with them. Including, of course, a passport.

  71. Re:Passport RFID borders on criminal negligence IM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's nice to see that someone else besides me is sufficiently realistic to understand that this can be a real problem. And it's cheap: I don't know what RFID standard passports are using, but various readers on Ebay don't seem to creep much above the $50 mark. Add a microcontroller and some code (which, of course, can be open-sourced amongst other terrorist organizations), along with a little supporting hardware, and you've got yourself a trigger for a device for less than, say, $200 and a few days/weeks of study by an aptly-minded person.

    Dead on. And, if you can get the trigger to go off remotely, you get great savings by reusing much of the hardware.

    Just set the main stuff up (buried) at a distance from the IED. Use thin enough wires and you can just kick or brush some dust over them.

    You are aware, are you not, that khaki, the color of many military uniforms in times past, is the Afghan word for "dust". What better way to keep looking snappy than to make your uniforms out of material the same color as what's blowing all over them in the wind? Perfect camo for uniforms and wires.

    Heh, captcha = commando

  72. Re:Fighting the wrong battle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The reason you're told not to smile is because the P.R. software has a harder time dealing with it

    That's really interesting. It's always been the case with California driver's licenses, as far as I can remember. Same with US passports

    But sometime in the past year or two, a friend with a US passport got an Irish passport. (This used to be a bad in the US, which frowned on dual citizenship.) When taking the photo, she was told not to look so glum, so she gave them a big smile.

    So, being of close Irish ancestry, I decided to do so as well. By the time my app had arrived, things had changed. Now they emphasize that you are not to smile.

  73. Sorry, it's not just a serial number by cheros · · Score: 1

    If it was just a randomised serial number as is used to detect fake drugs (AFAIK the idea behind aegate.com) it would still not be OK as that implies a mother of all databases with personal details and biometrics which are accessible by any idiot with a border.

    However, have a look at http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,431701,00.html and others, a Dutch group CHANGED the data on the chip which implies (1) it's on the chip and (2) it's changeable ON REMOTE.

    The chip holds data, data that can be accessed and even changed without the owner knowing (except mine, it appears the lack of shielding makes it very sensitive to being accidentally passed over a microwave comms dish. Funny that..).

    --
    Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.
    1. Re:Sorry, it's not just a serial number by maxume · · Score: 1

      This article discusses passport cards, not full fledged passports. Read the security section:

      http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppt_card/ppt_card_3926.html

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.