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DHS Pathogen Lab To Be Built In "Tornado Alley"
Hugh Pickens writes "The Washington Post reports that Department of Homeland Security is relying on a rushed, flawed study to justify its decision to locate the $700 million National Bio and Agro-Defense Facility for highly infectious pathogens in a tornado-prone section of Kansas. A GAO report says that it is not 'scientifically defensible' to conclude that lab can safely handle dangerous animal diseases in Kansas. Such research has been conducted up to now on a remote island on the northern tip of Long Island, NY. 'Drawing conclusions about relocating research with highly infectious exotic animal pathogens from questionable methodology could result in regrettable consequences,' the GAO warned in its draft report. Critics of moving the operation to the mainland argue that a release could lead to widespread contamination that could kill livestock, devastate a farm economy, and endanger humans. Along with the highly contagious foot-and-mouth disease, NBAF researchers plan to study African swine fever, Japanese encephalitis, Rift Valley fever, and other viruses in the Biosafety Level (BSL) 3 and BSL-4 livestock laboratory capable of developing countermeasures for foreign animal diseases. According to the article, DHS lobbied a Congressional committee to try and convince them that the GAO report was flawed, and to head off any hearings on the controversy. Despite this, the House Energy and Commerce Committee's oversight and investigations subcommittee plans to hold a hearing Thursday on the risk analysis."
"My watch stopped."
"Durn shame."
"It's because of the heat." /obscure
Andromeda Strain
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
It's what my wife has, always sticking her foot into her mouth.
H1N1, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore
This is the plot to "Devil Winds".......one the all-time worst disaster films!
http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/306319/Devil-Winds/overview
http://www.blockbusteronline.com/movies/devil-winds.html
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
At the end of the bridge to nowhere.
So lobbying wins out over common sense?
"The pigs are flying"
Congress is actually going to practice a little due diligence. How nice if they always did this.
F-5 Flu
110 miles from NYC is safe but Kansas is far too dangerous?
This doesn't make any sense.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Nah, lets put it in a far more geographically stable area like California, or a more meteorologically stable area like Florida!
Playing devil's advocate here, clearly this isn't the best location for such a facility but I don't think "being in the middle of the continent" has anything to do with that.
"linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
Build it under the longterm nuclear waste storage facility.
some jerkoff senator is scratching some corporate donor's back by bringing the massive contruction contract to his own back yard in BFE, Kansas.
This is the worst kind of politicking. Anyone with any kind of common sense knows that the only facility safe in tornado alley is built underground.
They're using their grammar skills there.
Why not put it somewhere isolated that is very cold or very hot, like Alaska or the desert, where the environment would help limit the spread of any escaped pathogens, not give them an ideal breeding ground like Kansas would.
You could use the argument that researchers wouldn't want to live there, but you could say the same thing about Kansas!
And as you tread the halls of sanity, You feel so glad to be, Unable to go beyond. I have a message, From another time..
Revolutionary. It will be resistant to terrorists attacks because it will obviously be _guarded_ by tornadoes.
The way you tried to turn this into a Dems bad/ Reps good issue is incredibly boneheaded. When some nasty pathogen gets loose, I plan to blame you personally because by subverting this argument to your pathetic politics you have undercut all rational discussion that might have prevented the apocalypse. The deaths of 99% of the human race will be personally on your head, and you will be the most thoroughly damned person ever to live. The survivors will eventually make a movie, where Snake Pliskin and a time traveling robot simultaneously hunt you down, join forces in the end, attach chains to opposite sides of your head, and rip your brain in half to the cheers of the entire surviving population. You will be played by John Warner in a fat suit, and he will set the scene by portraying you eating Dalmatian puppies.
Who is John Cabal?
It's the fact that they're moving it at all. This stuff is currently secure. It's locked up in a building that is supposed to be able to handle a dropped vial or something. It seems to my admittedly non-biotech-schooled mind that moving the stuff for a week is far more dangerous and has a much higher risk factor than letting it sit in the same place for 50 years.
Is called Plum Island.
Other than living relatively close to it i see no problem with just leaving it there. The only way to get to it is from a secure ferry and in it's 50+ years I haven't heard of one incident.
I'm not exactly sure what the big deal is. Yes, tornados do happen, however -every- place has its risks. Any place located on any cost has the possibility of hurricanes, California has a lot of earthquakes, etc. And honestly the chances of a tornado hitting that exact same place and causing any sort of major damage is slim.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
It could also have to do more with creating jobs for that area. Either way it's shameless pork.
Let me count the ways its a bad idea.
1. All samples have to come from "someplace else" to the middle of the continental USA, where everybody lives. Plane crash? Car crash? Train derailment? Stupid screw up (oh that could never happen, right?) Your bug is loose in frickin' Kansas. The middle of the continent. Perfect set up for it to spread.
2. Any agriculture bug you're testing? You're surrounded by... agriculture! Better hope you don't have a test tube break.
3. People live right outside. See #2.
4. How many super duper Level 5 trained people want to move to Cow's Butt, Kansas?
5. Almost forgot, tornadoes.
I'm not even trained in this specialty, I came up with that off the top of my head. The little island off the NY coast is a -good- place. A better place would be an island off the coast of Alaska, or in the middle of the Pacific.
But hey, I'm "flamebait" for suggesting that this kind of stunning stupidity is BUSINESS AS USUAL for the f-ing MUTANTS who run the US government. Fire them all.
Who cares what happens to Oz? They need do something about all those flying monkeys, this might just do the trick. Then it'll finally be safe to vacation there again.
If you don't understand a comment, don't moderate it. The Andromeda Strain used exactly this scenario -- a high-level pathogen research lab built in the middle of BFE, Kansas.
... in it's 50+ years I haven't heard of one incident.
Perhaps you should read the Wikipedia article that you linked to.
It references this NY Times article about outbreaks at the facility:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/22/nyregion/plum-island-reports-disease-outbreak.html
And as you tread the halls of sanity, You feel so glad to be, Unable to go beyond. I have a message, From another time..
Perhaps the specimens and anticipated case-load for this lab are expected to come primarily from the surrounding areas. Bringing the lab close to where the incidents of interest are likely to occur offer some advantages. I know that whenever most of use hear of a Bio lab we immediately assume that it is meant for production of pathogens, but numerous such labs are actually diagnostic in nature. For example, many states have a Plant Disease Diagnostic Laboratory (such as this one).
Sure you could probably quarantine and relocate an entire herd to a remote lab in Alaska but it could be better to move them to a facility much closer. But even if it were placed in Alaska people would then become concerned about protecting the wildlife and how the facility would cope with the freeze hazards. No place would be good enough.
I'm not even trained
Clearly. FYI, but not everybody lives in the middle of the continent. The vast majority of the population lives on the two coasts, not in the middle. Kansas specifically has a relatively sparse population. A better location would be somewhere in North Dakota, where you've got the smallest population density in the continental US and the cold would also help alleviate any spread.
The little island off the NY coast is a -good- place.
Maybe so, if you ignore the fact that it's next door to the largest population center in North America.
But hey, I'm "flamebait" for suggesting that this kind of stunning stupidity is BUSINESS AS USUAL
No, you're flamebait for suggesting that any single political party, and all of its constituents, is to blame for the general stupidity coming out of the government. Not to mention that you assume the constituents of any party actually want to see stupidity from the government. That's why you're flamebait.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
1. All samples have to come from someplace else no matter where you are
2. Not disputed.
3. People in the surrounding area will be an even bigger issue outside of the mid-west.
4. That's more of a HR issue than anything else. My guess is it wouldn't be that big of an issue. How many super duper Level 5 trained people want to move out to some little island in the middle of the fucking Pacific ocean?
5. I never argued that.
Oh, and you were modded flamebait because you decided to include seemingly partisan political attacks in your post and the mod in question didn't think it was clever enough to be a proper troll.
"linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
MRI (Midwest Research Institute) is already in tornado alley at Kansas City, Missouri, just off the UMKC campus. MRI holds the largest archive of communicable pathogens in the world, down the road from the largest public-private science and technology library in the world (Linda Hall, from which library we faxed the University of Tehran [at DHS' approval] almost the entire bibliography of U.S. nuclear research a few years ago just before The Media(TM) started its 'Iran has nuclear tech' scare).
It makes perfect sense that They(TM) would want this new lab to be near the older and larger lab.
-=/\- Jizzbug -/\=-
..hahahahahahahahha...sorry...
I hate being bipolar; it's awesome!
East Coast = Hurricanes
West Cost = Earthquakes
Midwest = Tornadoes
Here's a thought: regardless of where it's build, the dangerous part will be underground. Last I heard, tornadoes don't burrow.
What do you expect from a region of the country that has been largely responsible for the tilting of our national diet towards corn? Teaching of religious "alternatives" to evolution? Unconstitutional "homeland" "security"? Preemptive warmaking in the name of "freedom"?
Thanks to the political primaries and low population density, a bunch of ignorant and extremely socially conservative idiots have been driving and heavily influencing our political landscape.
Please help metamoderate.
They should put the lab in an underground complex under Raccoon City, Colorado. What could possibly go wrong?
It's only a matter of time before they start experimenting further...
The little island off the NY coast is a -good- place.
Maybe so, if you ignore the fact that it's next door to the largest population center in North America.
However, the prevailing winds blow offshore. I think Ireland is downwind. I do realize that winds blow from all directions occasionally.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
That's a perfect choice, its not like there are any devistating natural disasters there that involve high speed far reaching winds and could destroy the lab and spread the airborne pathogens contained within at the same time!
Wait... there is something I'm missing here but these damn ruby red slippers keep popping in my head and interrupting my thought process...
Ah well, at least there aren't any actual people in KS.
for the money it better be tornado-proof... or at least tornado-resistant.
Those of us who think they know everything annoy those of us who do.
>4. That's more of a HR issue than anything else. My guess is it wouldn't be that big of an issue. How many super duper Level 5 trained people want to move out to some little island in the middle of the fucking Pacific ocean?
Substantially more than want to move to Kansas?
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
Actually I suggested that Democrats are the party of more government, which I take from this debacle to be a bad thing. Only government lobbying and wheeling/dealing can create situations this infernally stupid.
If you RTFA you'll discover that the governor of Kansas is indeed a Democrat, but the two Senators pushing the thing are REPUBLICANS, which only goes to show that the answer is not having the "right" party in power. The only solution is to have -less- government, with less money to create dangerous situations like this.
But don't feel too bad. The Canadian super duper bug lab is in Winnipeg. That's a city pretty much in the middle of the country. Government funded assholery is international.
too early for April fools day ? I mean seriously ... the DHS couldn't be that stupid to implement yet another half-assed plan like this.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind" - Dr. Seuss
Long Island isn't known for regularly-occurring natural disasters. Kansas is.
However, your suggestion of North Dakota is a very good one. It's even more sparsely-populated than Kansas, and there's never any natural disasters there, unless you count -40 temperatures (which as you point out are a good thing for this application).
According to the polls, Congress and Obama are plummeting in the polls even among their previous supporters. And so the pendulum swings back once again...
Shazam! The governor of Kansas is ...[drum roll]... a DEMOCRAT! And has indeed been lobbying for this. Sadly the two senators for Kansas who have also been lobbying are REPUBLICANS, which gets back to my less government is better government theme. Two parties, both populated by idiots. Awesome!
Snake Pliskin says hi, btw.
Your karma called; it wants to know why you hate it so much.
As a current resident of the state and city in question I can say that I can think of much worse places to put it. Manhattan, KS has only had one tornado in the past two years that did some very minor damage. Also if the agent that are going to be stored in the facility are as dangerous as stated then won't the building have the proper safety measures included in it construction.
Politicians... :/
4. That's more of a HR issue than anything else. My guess is it wouldn't be that big of an issue. How many super duper Level 5 trained people want to move out to some little island in the middle of the fucking Pacific ocean?
If it's a nice island, I imagine you'll have a much easier time recruiting great candidates to there rather than Kansas. I, for one, would be happy to live on a nice tropical Pacific island as long as there's at least a town there, and good internet access. But there's no way you'll ever get me to move to Kansas.
However, it did occur to me that they have hurricanes in the Pacific, so wouldn't that be a danger to putting a research station like this on someplace like Guam?
Your idea of predictable, naturally-explainable weather patterns is just a theory. In Kansas, we teach that tornadoes are caused by an intelligent designer. This designer would never send His tornadoes to spread disease amongst His people without a good reason. It is our faith in Him that allows us to relocate this dangerous facility without fear. In fact, it is better to get this building as far away from the godless sodomites in NYC as possible. His will be done, amen.
</caricature>
Typical New Englander mentality: Fuck the Irish.
I'm rated troll now. :)
But on topic,
1. yes, samples come from somewhere but they don't escape to anywhere important if you crash on an isolated island. They do if you crash in Kansas. Or drop the sample box on the runway.
3. There's plenty enough people in the mid-west for an escaped bug to spread through. And isn't the point of a secure Level 5 lab to make people -safer-?
4. People will be expected to -live- in Kansas and drive to work. (Thereby radically increasing the chance of spreading bugs, btw.) No one will be expected to live full time on Dr. No's Pacific island. They will do rotations and live someplace where they want to be.
5. No, you didn't.
Isolated island good. Farmer's field in Kansas, bad.
Guam has over 100,000 people on it and a busy airport full of Japanese tourists. Bad choice. Better choice would be to rent one of the uninhabitable pitcairn islands from the UK (I believe there's four islands incapable of sustaining human life on their own--just dry rocks really--but they're on a major shipping lane at least).
I bet you more will get done about this by people who first look to see who endorses it than who worry first about what party they associate with. Get the names of people involved. Don't even start off by describing them as 'bureaucratic' until you know a few job titles and such. See if any of them are scientists, MD's, representitives. Senators, business leaders, or lobbyists, find out who is on a federal public payroll, who is state funded, and who is on a private one, and then, if it still looks important, yes by then you might want to check party affiliations. But all rushing that part does is alienates some people who might give a damn otherwise.
Oh, and Snake probably won't be played by Kurt Russell if 99% of everybody dies first. Ahnald will naturally survive to play the terminator one last time - he said he'd be back after all. What, nobody argued with John Warner living through the global pandemic from Hell? What's with you people?
Who is John Cabal?
So far I'm ahead on karma points, AC dude.
Re "it's 50+ years I haven't heard of one incident."
The infected workers in many labs like this around the would be dead or on disability and families are patriotic?
Asking for real autopsies and going to the courts, press ect can be very very very unhealthy.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Glad I am west of the divide, so long suckers!
we don't get hit with tornadoes all that often. They do happen, and small towns do get properly torn-up by them, but one of those only hits every few years. Most of our tornadoes touch down in uninhabited areas, because there's a /lot/ of space that's farm fields, pastures, or forested. Also, I'd much rather be here than where hurricanes or earthquakes or forest fires are apt to hit, because tornadoes by their nature affect only a small area.
Taco, would you get around to firing kdawson already? His sensationalism was amusing during the election cycle, but it's getting really tiresome.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
DHS officials and Kansas leaders say the selection system, which began in late 2006, was always fair and open. Brownback has noted that George W. Bush was president in mid-January when his home state of Texas lost the competition.
Also, it's a democrat, Rep. Bart Stupak, that is insisting that there be a hearing on the issue...
just saying...
You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
In Tom Clancy's book Rainbow Six, 1998. The Horizon corporation has one of it's facilities in central Kansas. It' goal was to engineer a virus to kill everyone but it's members, so they could save the earth's environment from people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Six_%28novel%29
6. Much of the population does not believe in Evolution.
What a great place to do evolution dependent research.
Wait a second. If they don't believe in Evolution, then it none of it is really dangerous.
Living in Chile
4. How many super duper Level 5 trained people want to move to Cow's Butt, Kansas?
The Manhattan, Topeka, Lawrence, and Kansas City are all reasonably close to each other, and offer fairly decent living accomodations. Lawrence and Manhattan are classic large-university cities, Topeka is the state capital (and a reasonable sized city), and Kansas City is a contiguous metropolitan area of about two million people.
There are plenty of desolate places in Kansas, but the area where this research facility has been proposed is not one of them.
I actually live in the town (to call it a city is a bit laughable) where the NBAF is going, and there is a sizable portion of the local population who is against it's construction as well. I hesitate to call it a majority, as I certainly havent taken a scientific poll or anything, but several people I know are rather opposed to the idea. Their main concern (besides the usual Not In My Back Yard mentality associated with stuff like this) is about the effect an outbreak would have on the local livestock populations. The Manhattan area, despite being a college town, still has a pretty agriculture oriented economy. Cows and sheep and wheat all over the place. A good deal of people are concerned about the repercussions of an outbreak, not only on the macro level (millions of dollars spent containing infections, yet another beef embargo, the slaughter of who knows how many heads of livestock, etc.), but on the micro level (farmers being forced to exterminate what could easily be their only source of income, the possibility of local residents becoming infected with virus variants that can make humans sick, etc.). Programs like Locate In 48, while a great idea, are not very widely implemented, and thus make it much more difficult to track down infections without slaughtering a quarter of the state's cows. And yes, we do have a bit of a tornado problem. Last summer a tornado came straight through Manhattan and tore up several buildings in town and on campus. K-State and the city government like to talk up how great of an economic boost to the community the lab will be, with all the jobs created from the technical staff and construction labor, and how it belongs in Kansas because there is an ample sized pool of scientists and collaborators in this region to work for/with the NBAF, and the number of animal health researchers at K-State and the Biosecurity Research Institute that we already have here.
You could use the argument that researchers wouldn't want to live there, but you could say the same thing about Kansas!
No kidding. I fucking hate it here...
What do you mean disasters never happen in North Dakota?
How is it assholery?
The government has to choose between placing the lab in the geographic center (Kansas) or the population center (coasts) of the US. Both are bad for different reasons.
If remoteness is what you want, we could build it in Alaska, but that would generate all sorts of complaints about the region's geographical stability, cost, and political favoritism. You also have the issue of transportation.
Truth be told, modern construction techniques have made it perfectly safe to place buildings in tornado and earthquake-prone zones. Transport also isn't much of an issue, given that we've figured out how to transport nuclear waste in containers that are designed to withstand pretty much anything. (Hazardous materials could and should be stored on-site in similarly robust containers)
Honestly, this sounds like a story cooked up to increase ratings, and get people riled up.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Also, I'd much rather be here than where hurricanes or earthquakes or forest fires are apt to hit, because tornadoes by their nature affect only a small area.
Hurricanes don't often rip (properly constructed) buildings to shreds. Tornadoes obliterate anything in their path.
Both hurricanes and forest fires are easily "built for." Tornadoes? Not so much.
How hilarious that a bunch of idiots on slashdot with virtually no qualifications are questioning the validity of a study done by the GAO, which presumably has at least SOME people who know what they're talking about.
Please help metamoderate.
In short, don't forget that a lot of other places fought AGAINST the biolab. For instance in a fairly rural portion of North Carolina:
http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/835757.html
The big question is, who are you competing with?
The kind of people who would want to work in this kind of joint are a relatively specialized field. There aren't research jobs studying highly infectious diseases jut lying about unfilled, and there aren't really all that many places you can work if you want this particular job. Yes most of the people who would have these kind of specialties could probably get jobs in related fields, but there's a certain something that doing this kind of thing has for these kind of people. They'll move to wherever the jobs are because it's what they want to do. You don't take a job like this for the money(it's likely not that high) and you don't take it for the wonderful working conditions(the safety measures for this kind of thing aren't exactly good times), you take it because it's what you want to do.
Before starting, I should probably mention that I actually live in Manhattan, KS and attend Kansas State University, the proposed site for the lab.
I have to start by say that not putting something here because of tornadoes is a pretty thin claim, as tornadoes are a pretty rare occurrence by all accounts, especially in Manhattan due to it's location. In the seven years I've lived here only one has even brushed a portion of the town. While for some this may be too much of a risk, there are plenty of precautions that can be taken to lessen the risk.
More importantly, the campaigning for the location of this lab and all the money and frills that come with it has been very competitive and heated over the last couple years with a number of accusations and claims coming from all the sites. A good number of them coming from the contender site that was almost chosen in Texas that has been very critical of the Kansas location. Though it is rarely mentioned that the section of Texas in question has a greater likelihood of tornadoes by a large margin.
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today." -Isaac Asimov
It's standard practice to at least mention what an acronym stands for before using it, especially when it's not well known. The GAO is the Government Accountability Office, which is apparently designed to provide some oversight to what Congress does.
I had but a simple dream, to destroy all humans.
It's what my wife has, always sticking her foot into her mouth.
Funny, she's got bird flu too, from putting too much cock in her mouth.
Ba da bing!
I'm not the least bit surprised. After all, he got elected by exploiting the hate liberals had (and still have) for Bush, and by avoiding any specifics of what kind of change he stood for. To paraphrase Alan Sherman, he was elected by being all things to all people, and if he continues the way he's started, in four years he'll be called all things by all people.
Good, inexpensive web hosting
Lecter: Plum Island Animal Disease Research Center. Sounds charming.
Clarice: That's only part of the island. There's a very, very nice beach. Terns nest there. There's beautiful...
Lecter: Terns?...If I help you, Clarice, it will be 'turns' for us, too. Quid pro quo. I tell you things, you tell me things. Not about this case, though. About yourself. Quid pro quo. Yes or no? Yes or no, Clarice? Poor little Catherine is waiting.
Clarice: Go, doctor.
I've posted this elsewhere on this story, but it's worth pointing out that we've been transporting nuclear material by road for quite some time, and without major incident.
Part of the reason behind this is that the containers used for shipping are deigned to withstand a collision from a fully-loaded high speed train.
That sort of accident is extremely unlikely, given that trains are not permitted to run at high speeds through grade crossings, while commercial/hazmat truck drivers are required to make a full stop at such crossings. I'm having trouble finding any record of an at-grade high speed collision (the Acela once hit a car while traveling at 70mph, while France's TGV has been operating for 25+ years without a single fatal accident).
Nevertheless, should extreme stupidity prevail, the container would still survive. It's hard to imagine an incident that would breach the container without also killing the pathogens stored inside.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Think of it from another perspective: This facility will attract thousands of scientists and researchers to the (sparsely populated) area, most of whom will be registered voters.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Think of all the money saved by not having to outfit the place with centrifuges.
Actually I suggested that Democrats are the party of more government...
This is often claimed, but I have never, ever observed this to be the case. Aside from a short period of small examples early in the Clinton administration, I've never observed either party make any significant effort to shrink government. Ever since Ford (the first president I remember), every party, every administration, and every congress has been the party, administration, and congress of more government. Lip-service aside, no one is committed to anything else. You can gauge someone's gullibility by the degree to which they believe one party the other favors smaller government, rather than just larger or smaller roles in various areas (each favors an expanded role in some areas and a smaller role in others).
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
Tornado? We're worried about a tornado? Build it like a nuclear containment dome, and we're just fine. People inside won't even know there's a storm, with an F5 tornado dancing on top of it. And NIMBYs are just another variety of people trying to stop something, come at a dime a dozen, and deserve to be ignored like all the others.
M-o-o-n... that spells Kansas!
Not really, the numbers were still substantially higher than what the Republicans could muster last time I checked, and the mid-term elections are still a ways away.
Like what? -40 temperatures are not a "disaster". The lacks of people and natural disasters is probably why the AF a big part of put so many missiles in Minot.
Before you were shipped off to ND, did anyone tell you how there were beautiful women there behind every tree?
Oddly enough, we already have facilities in highly questionable locations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosafety_Level
Look for:
"National Biocontainment Facility"
"Shope Laboratory"
These are Biosafety level 4 facilities in Galveston, Texas.
They have hurricanes in Galveston... Big ones...
No, I don't believe it! Everything they do makes total sense!
Oh, hang on, the doorbell just rang. Looks like some guys in dark suits. Wonder what they want.
"If you RTFA you'll discover that the governor of Kansas is indeed a Democrat, but the two Senators pushing the thing are REPUBLICANS, which only goes to show that the answer is not having the "right" party in power. The only solution is to have -less- government, with less money to create dangerous situations like this."
Flaw: the whole thing is about a research facility designed to mitigate the risks of dangerous and extremely damaging diseases, something that's actually a good idea to have. this isn't an issue of government having too much money with which to do stupid things, or even an issue of having too much government, it;s an issue of government doing things for stupid, greedy reasons. In this case, the reason is almost certainly that Kansas wants more Federal research money to infuse the local economy (researchers need food, water, homes, clothes, cars, and all manner of other goods, plus they have to pay taxes), and given the topic at hand that is a stupid, greedy (who wants to bet me that either Senator has no ties to local construction contractors capable of taking on the government contracts this would immediately lead to? I'll just take your money now) reason.
It's not a matter of more government or less, it's a matter of better. For all that they claim to intend otherwise, the last 3 Republican presidents and have acted to increase the size and scope of government more than almost any other administrations in American history, and at least in my opinion they've done a tremendously shitty job of it. The Republicans believe that government is flawed, ineffective, intrusive and harmful to all aspects of our nation, and if you elect them, by God they will prove it. The Democrats may not do much better, but at least they don't bullshit you about trying to decrease the reach of government.
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
Maybe so, if you ignore the fact that it's next door to the largest population center in North America.
TFS suggests the concerns are mostly about diseases of livestock, which other than Wall Street pigs sucking up their welfare dollars from the public trough, doesn't make up a large fraction of the population of New York.
That said, only an idiot would suggest that the dysfunctional American government is a partisan problem. It is, on the contrary, an AMERICAN problem. Dunno what it is about you guys that you can't put together a decent government program on anything. The rest of us don't have that hard a time with it.
Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
My house has been sitting in Kansas since 1964. It has never received tornado damage. It was never built to survive a tornado either. The bio-defense facility is going to be a modern and more-or-less tornado proof building. Simple construction techniques can make buildings pretty much indestructible. An earth wall with a 3-4 foot high concrete wall on top of that with a total height the same as the facility would be enough to protect the facility from even the most powerful tornadoes. I just don't see this as a problem.
...And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me." - Martin Niemoeller (1892-1984)
I've lived in the Fort Riley area for 20+ years.
Growing up in northeast Kansas, I'm aware of the stereotypes. Fort Riley has a large influx of migrating soldiers and their families who echo your sentiments.
The most common complaint is "There's nothing to do here in Kansas".
Being a geeky kid, I shrug. Each city I've lived in had around 20+ fast food joints (due to the soldiers and college kids), a few movie theaters, and malls + shopping centers if that's what they meant. Sure, we lack a major league sports franchise. Kansas City is the closest and I always hated having to drive there to attend a Magic: the Gathering tournament.
There's not many concerts/conventions here except for Kansas State University's events & the annual country music one.
I wish we had better ISP choices. COX cable is tolerable, & I detest AT&T/SBC DSL. Some places near the Missouri border get Timewarner/Roadrunner instead. We also lack GOOD public transportation. Owning a car is a necessity.
I grew up thinking this area was safe from tornados. I was wrong, I experienced my first one last year. We had a flood in 1993 but my side of town was unaffected.
What do you expect from a region of the country that has been largely responsible for the tilting of our national diet towards corn?
From Wikipedia:
The agricultural outputs of the state are cattle, sheep, wheat, sorghum, soybeans, cotton, hogs, corn, and salt.
Growing up here, I've not seen many corn fields compared to wheat and soybeans. And I was surprised to see sheep, cotton, and salt mentioned.
I've met many people who produce beef, hogs, wheat, and soybeans however. But that's just my personal experience.
Teaching of religious "alternatives" to evolution?
I'm passing the blame here. I've never been taught creationism in public school. We do have a lot of Catholics & Protestants residents however. Dr. George Tiller was murdered in nearby Wichita, Kansas. On a junior high school field trip to Topeka, we saw Fred Phelps picketing the roadways from our school buses. Before that day, I never witnessed a hate-group.
Unconstitutional "homeland" "security"? Preemptive warmaking in the name of "freedom"?
Thanks to the political primaries and low population density, a bunch of ignorant and extremely socially conservative idiots have been driving and heavily influencing our political landscape.
Kansas can't help but be associated with Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, & Nebraska on locale. We are a "red state" but our recently former governor is Kathleen_Sebelius who I'm proud to say I've met personally.
I spent a lot of time with table-top gaming, Magic: the Gathering, and LAN parties. Most of the soldiers I met were very cool and down-to-earth. Instead of trying to recruit me, they actively warned me about the downsides of military life. They were funny, quick thinkers, skilled, and had amazing stories. But each moved out-of-state when their military-service was complete.
I'm sympathetic to the soldiers. Most need the job for income. But they get treated poorly. If they are lucky enough to return from duty, they usually face high divorce rates and health problems.
So far, you have stereotyped this entire region and I'm disappointed. I would have expected more convincing facts, and less inane drivel from an intellectual authority such as yourself.
Disclaimer: I am a student at Kansas State University who has lived in Iowa, Missouri, Georgia, and Germany.
Well, technology changes, we can create more secure labs, and in the case of an attack from, say, another country, it's a lot better to have this located in the center of our country far away from any border. Moving it isn't 100% secure, but these things are already moving around the country whenever we bring them to the existing labs. Personally, I'd rather it be in Kansas than at the CDC which was across the street from the summer camp I used to work at.
well, if they want it on the mainland, Wyoming has the smallest population. the Big Dick Cheney would be on hand to waterboard any suspected traitors to the fatherland or Al Qaidas types (sp?) roaming around (like the turbans wouldnt stand out or anything).
but seriously, these decisions are better left to those fat cats in Washington because they know how to govern for the people, by the people, irregardless of party affiliation.
plus, think of all those jobs- construction, security (think Blackwater or Xe or whatever they are calling themselves this week), scientists (mediocre ones not snapped up by private corporations), the boon for the local housing market, FEMA could get into the action with a staging area (just in case). tourism would probably spike with all the looky loos and what not. why are you guys so paranoid about a high risk enterprise like this? as if the Feds dont know what they are doing.
so really this is about stimulating the economy. who wouldnt want to be the lucky recipient of such a well thought out gift to the american people, with the economy sputtering because it cant handle a couple percentage points of flux.
it is GOOD for everyone involved.
sleep tight Kansas, and may Jesus hold you in the palm of his hand.
"You can kill the revolutionary, but you can't kill the revolution."-- Fred Hampton
The 520,000 square-foot facility is scheduled to begin construction in 2010, become operational by 2014, and employ up to 300 people.
The shift in voters wouldn't be huge. But the town's economy depends on the University and we become a ghost town during summer.
And you Democrat voters want more of this, not less?
Actually, probably the reverse. I'm betting this was set in motion during the prior (Republican) administration to move a multimillion dollar crown jewel facility from a very blue state to a very red one.
They are building in in Manhattan, KS, by Kansas State University. I'd imagine they probably liked the choice because it's sparsely populated, but is also one of the academic centers in Kansas to be able to attract educated people to work there.
Also to be at some point on the receiving end of this whole debacle: a lot of very curious and very dead Munchkins.
North Dakota has about 22 tornadoes a year. Kansas has about 200 a year. Then you have to take into account differences in intensities of those tornadoes, I'd imagine.
That Island was perfectly good enough to offer to Hannibal Lecture as a vacation spot, why is it too good for these diseased animals?
"Don't be a martyr -- BE THE ONE WHO GOT AWAY!"
NYMBY
--
Posted from Fargo.
obviously no deficiencies vs. no obvious deficiencies
I think that it is funny that it is just now getting to the news about the NBAF facility being built in Kansas. Having lived the past 2 years in the town it is moving to (Manhattan, KS) I have already heard lots about it.
One of the reasons that it is moving to KS is the fact that there are many people who are experts in these diseases already in Manhattan. Kansas State University has a good Animal science program.
Tornadoes should not be that big of deal. If they are smart about their construction it should be able to withstand almost anything. Other people have also mentioned the small likelihood of a tornado hitting the facility. There is a very large amount of area that tornado alley covers and relatively little of it is populated densley.
Some people don't like the fact that this dangerous of facility is coming to Kansas, but many people are glad for the economic boost it will provide.
This is absolutely absurd. I live in the Manhattan, Kansas area and to hear people actually questioning the location of this lab because of tornadoes is beyond stupid. Anyone who lives in the Midwest would know that tornadoes aren't actually as common as people apparently think they are. The chances of a tornado hitting the exact location the NBAF lab is to be built is next to nothing. Of course, anything is possible, but it's not likely. There's 50,000 people in Manhattan and we don't spend our lives in constant fear of being killed in a tornado. I've never once in my life ever witnessed even a funnel cloud and I've only heard tornado sirens go off a few times. In the last 100 years, Manhattan has been hit by two tornadoes: once sometime in the 60s and another time in 2008 (it caused pretty minimal damage). I will admit that there are valid questions about locating the NBAF lab in Kansas (mostly the proximity to livestock that could be infected by some of the diseases and placing it in the middle of the mainland continential US rather than an isolated island), but the article makes it sound like the decision to locate it in Kansas was made purely for politcal reason. It wasn't. The primary reason for putting it in Manhattan was to place it near Kansas State University, a college that specializes mostly in agriculture and the fact that a similar, but smaller facility already exists here. Anywho, I best be leaving. Gotta head down to the shelter before the twisters come and suck up me and maw and paw and the lil'uns..... Also, LAWL at the comments suggesting the entire facility be built underground. Does Kansas really have that bad of a reputation elsewhere in the world?
Have the people writing sentences like "a remote island off Long Island, New York" ever looked out the plane window when flying over..oh, say the rest of the continent? How is anything connected at all to Long Island even close to remote?
Remote is driving straight on the most populated road for 60 minutes in hopes that you'll find a gas station, not "off the shore of one of the most heavily populated areas in the nation".
Kansas is one of the major strongholds of Christian Fundamentalism. Do they even teach biology or is it a "creation inspired curriculum" where they throw samples into a test tube and pray that God will set things right? What college educated person would want to move there and have to deal with all those religious quacks every day? Maybe in this recession, but if things ever pick up, Bubba Pastor and his flock will be running the place.
Trust me, tornados can rip apart brick, and steel buildings just like a trailer home. I live in a town that has been hit multiple times. I also have searched for survivors while the rain and hail was still falling minutes after a tornado. I agree that with the right construction, buildings can survive, but it takes a lot more thought and better construction than the government would be willing to do. 2009 Lone Grove Oklahoma Tornado.
Transport also isn't much of an issue, given that we've figured out how to transport nuclear waste in containers that are designed to withstand pretty much anything
Just a few days ago there was a story here about all kinds of transportation issues.... Wind and transport Given the itty bitty problem transporting benign steel structures..... Naaaahh transport is not much of an issue ;-)
to the middle of the continental USA, where everybody lives
Since when does anyone live in the middle of the country? I'm pretty sure we're mostly on the coasts.
Spills or leaks of radioactive materials don't spread like contagious diseases.
:).
There's also the steps of getting stuff into that secure container.
Hopefully they don't use this as an opportunity to screw up the labeling
Actually, the presence of the Ogallala aquifer in Nebraska and Kansas means that the water table can be quite close to the surface. In my home town, especially in the southern area, the water table is actually near the level of your average basement. Anything more than an half inch of rain falls, and some people are gonna be pumping water out of their basements.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
If you're using the proper container, spills and leaks should be virtually impossible, especially given the fact that these samples are likely to be fairly small, meaning that they can be encased in many inches of steel. (If the government is hoarding tanker trucks of pathogens, we have a separate issue to deal with)
My original post linked to a video showing a nuclear waste container remaining completely intact after a firey head-on collision with a high speed train -- pretty much the worst thing that can happen to a truck (or a train for that matter).
If you somehow manage to breach the container, it seems fairly likely that you'd destroy the sample inside in the process. (You could also line the container with something flammable or explosive that would ignite at the first sign of trouble, and destroy the sample without compromising the container)
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
H23N67, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more.
On y va, qui mal y pense!
Kansas is an interesting choice, its one of the prime areas for cattle mutilations. Perhaps the Feds are trying to make life easier for themselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_mutilation
I assume its to keep the diseases inert - since Kansas is one of the few places in the world evolution doesn't happen... :P
Really? I'm not aware of any above-ground buildings that can withstand wind speeds of 300 mph or higher. I've heard of buildings that can withstand fairly severe earthquakes (I'm sitting in one now) and buildings that can withstand at least average hurricanes, but never ones that can withstand the worst recorded tornadoes.
The best we have are storm cellars: you go downstairs where you're fairly safe, wait out the storm, and then see if your house is still standing. (I grew up in the midwest, and this was just something that happened in the summer. I was fortunate enough that a tornado never came closer than a few miles from our town in the time that I lived there, but of course we never knew the path of the storm when the tornado warning sirens sounded.)
I think it's important to remember that these pathogens aren't unstoppable aliens from another planet bent on our destruction. They exist in nature and they haven't (yet) managed to wipe out all life so there must be natural control mechanisms (lets hope those mechanisms are based on geographic isolation). If they got loose they could certainly devastate sections of our farming for a while but that is partially our fault for exploiting a mono-culture farming methodology which is just waiting for some devastating infection.
I used to have a better sig but it broke.
Kansas has problems with Evolution, but they have no problem with Armegeddon and Plagues.
-Eric
How else can the government orchestrate the necessary die-off? See you at the FEMA camp, you fuckin' animals!
Remember that the British government finally admitted that they were the ones who released Foot and Mouth Disease (FMD), not once, but twice, into the wild and then killed over 6,000,000 healthy animals in their burnt ground policy? How comforting that our government is on top of things, too. Not. Visit http://nonais.org/ [nonais.org] and see what this means. Our government would do the same for us...
Out of curiosity, I'm wondering if it's common for US houses to be of the wooden construction I often see in videos / pictures of the US. Essentially we have a similar albeit much smaller structure in most UK gardens called a "garden shed". ;-) If the lab was constructed mainly of wood I could see some concern in placing it in a "tornado alley" region.
Anyway, my question is as follows - are there many wooden-constructed homes in the US compared to more reasonable materials like brick or stone? If so, what is the rationale behind this?
This lab will be within eyesight of Kansas State University's recreation center, basketball coliseum AND football stadium. My Alma Mater was more than willing to receive this blatant pork-barrel largesse that could well have an associated body count. They've been crowing about it in the alumni mag for months now.
They may exist in nature, but having RTFS you'll notice that they are mostly foreign animal diseases which have not ever been introduced to US animal populations. This meaning that the US livestock population likely has little to no immunity from any of them.
I happen to live in the town that the NBAF lab is scheduled to be built in. There was minimal an largely ineffectual noise made here when the project was announced. A few people feel that living in proximity to lethal viruses is maybe a bad thing. All in all, not a huge public outcry. It seemed (still seems really) that the project will go forth and multiply, as it were.
As for the whole "Tornado Alley OMGWTF" business: this was all started by Texas. Texas was butt hurt that they didn't land the project because, after all, who has even HEARD of Kansas? At first they tried to file an injunction to stop the process because there were going to be tornadoes here. That didn't go over too well with the courts, so they tried again arguing that Kansas law stipulates that land offered for federal projects has to be given unconditionally and that the current proffered land grant is conditional on the fact that said lab would actually be built. That direction seems to be landing too a little short of its mark.
A couple of things:
1) We had a smallish tornado here last year. Prior to that the last tornado we had here was nigh 20 years ago and it touched down for about 30 seconds. I've lived here for 30 years and I don't fear tornadoes.
2) I almost guarantee that the paper trail of this tornado-leveling-NBAF scare leads directly to Texas politicians. It seems they're going to try their damnedest to keep this in a court somewhere until such time as the feds give up and just plant the thing in Galveston. "Try" is the operative word here. I'm no fan of Sam Brownback, but he's a pretty powerful influence on Capitol Hill and doggedly determined to get this lab landed in my back yard.
3) Texas sucks.
The Republicans believe that government is flawed, ineffective, intrusive and harmful to all aspects of our nation, and if you elect them, by God they will prove it. The Democrats may not do much better, but at least they don't bullshit you about trying to decrease the reach of government.
No, they just bullshit you about the tax increases that they will NEVER impose.
6. Much of the population does not believe in Evolution.
What's with the wild assumptions?
What a great place to do evolution dependent research.
How is it evolution dependent research? What, are they testing the theory, trying to prove it and put the debate to rest? I would think they'd be doing things more along the lines of finding out what disables those crucial genes that are keeping the infectious disease alive. You know, something relevant to biotech.
Seriously though, I'm sure they'll have no problems locating more than enough more-than-qualified biologists.
If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
1) This is true of ANYWHERE you put it. Kansas State Vet School probably already has samples of everything anyway.
2, 3, 4) There are animals almost anywhere that you could put it where you'd have the population to support the facility. People don't want to move to Kansas, but do want to move to Alaska or the middle of the Pacific?
5) The competing location, San Antonio, gets tornadoes too. And the tornado threat is really overblown. Statistically, it's almost insignificant. Hardening the storage facility to withstand an F5 is doable. Kansas is geologically stable and doesn't get hurricanes or tsunamis or much else besides tornadoes.
Plus:
6) It didn't look like there was much competition for the location. Most of the states probably NIMBY'd up and didn't want it.
7) This site is co-located with a veterinary school...one of only 28 in the country. North Dakota doesn't have one. Neither does San Antonio. The infrastructure and talent are already there.
8) Kansas State University already has the National Agricultural Biosecurity Center. They're probably quite prepared for containment, and have 'super duper Level 5 trained people'.
If you don't do evolution, you are not doing biology.
Try relating one strain of DNA, or the existences of DNA, or any science related to DNA, based on creationist stories.
It gets to be a progressively harder to make it all hang together, unless you toss in some aliens (wait that does not fit either).
Living in Chile
Everybody just chill-- they'll build the Bio facility and surround it with tower-like structures for added TowerDefense. It's a strat called AggroDefense: I saw it done in WC3 Battle.net once.
We also have the Biosecurity Research Institute.
http://www.bri.k-state.edu/
The location is proposed to be near that building, so while the new facility is built there is speculation that research can be under way in the BRI.
After seeing the BRI a few times I don't have much concern for a tornado. I'd be more concerned about someone making a mistake and releasing pathogens, people aren't perfect even if the buildings they work in are failsafe. JMO.
Let's see "Department of Homeland Security is relying on a rushed, flawed study"
This sounds like every bill passed by the Thundering Herd of Dumbass formerly know as Congress this year.
Rushed and flawed should be the motto of the Obama Administration!
Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
the mNemonic, You Missed By "Y" ??????????
I've toured a datacenter that was built to withstand a F5 tornado. The problem isn't with building structures that can resist a F5, it's with building structures that can withstand a F5 to the size necessary for the purpose.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
I would venture to say that most decent government programs are outside the scope of our federal government.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
If you search for the terms "evolution" and "hiv" on pubmed you get nearly 5,000 papers back. That's just one disease. One of the big problems about most, probably all, diseases caused by some kind of pathogen is that they have huge population sizes and grow very fast. Evolution can move damn fast under those situations, and that's why we've got multiple-antibiotic resistant bugs out there that didn't exist 30 years ago. If you're working in epidemiology or virology or any disease-related field you're de facto doing evolutionary biology research. Also, given Kansas' infamous pro-creationism leanings it will be much harder to recruit scientists there. Any scientist with children would be reluctant to move there because they would worry about science-deniers on the board of education tampering with their kid's education. I doesn't help in recruiting those of us without kids, either.
As if the eastern end of Long Island doesn't get hit by hurricanes.
"You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
A 2006 Census Bureau estimate put the population of the Midwest at 66,217,736, so go fuck yourself coastie.
Poured concrete with airtight steel storm shutters and a deeply buried foundation should be able to survive anything short of the actual atmosphere being torn off the planet, yes?
Better yet, the outer structure of the building is ablative and the labs and storage rooms themselves are anchored steel bunker construction with dedicated buried ventilation.
It doesn't take much imagination to make a building that can survive 300 mph winds. Lift is a problem, as is structural dilation or compression when the atmospheric pressure inside and out aren't equal. Keeping it on the ground isn't much of a problem with buried structure. They've been building concrete bunkers for 40 years that can survive a near miss with a 20kt nuke which generates a hypersonic pressure wave, so a simple tornado ought to be easy enough.
The real question is, "are they likely to build something that stable?"
The land shall stone them with the bread of his son.
Odds are the Vet school does NOT "have samples of everything anyway" unless they're running BSL-3+/BSL-4 labs. These types of pathogens are way outside of what vets. do. Especially what vet. students do.
There are already a dozen or more level 4 biohazard (there's no such thing as a level 5 biohazard) facilities either under construction or already in operation in the US. Several are in major cities, such as Atlanta (headquarters of the Centers for Disease Control), Bethesda (Washington, D.C. metro area and also headquarters of the National Institutes of Health), Boston, Cincinnati, and also Stony Brook (to a New Yorker it's on the Moon, to everyone else it's on Long Island and therefore spitting distance of 10's of millions), San Antonio, Richmond, and Los Angeles. The only level 4 biohazard facility that I know of that I think is in a poor location is located on an island. Galveston, TX to be specific. It's most famous for the hurricane in 1900 which is still the worst national disaster in the US. Hurricane Ike in 2008 produced a big enough surge to go around it sea wall, and it was only a Cat 2 storm.
An isolated island in the middle of nowhere is a boneheaded idea. First you're going to have to get the island, and isolated islands are typically small which will severely limit facility size, or are located in arctic regions. Both are highly susceptible to harsh weather, for a small tropical island it could be completely covered with water from even a minor tropical storm because elevation won't be much greater than a few feet, and did I mention the arctic for option B? Next, you're going to have to import all building material, and in the process of construction drive to extinction the majority of native species. Your construction will have to provide not only for the level 4 facility itself, but also ALL support facilities. Power plant, housing, recreational facility, docks, repair and maintenance depots, airport, waste handling, water purification, and barracks. Yes, barracks. A remote island facility with level 4 biohazards and no defense force? Gee if I were a terrorist I know where I'd go! Now let's think recruitment. Very few people are going to be willing to live on this remote island fortress year round, especially without their families. Those that do are going to demand a king's ransom and will only be willing to do it for a few years before leaving and will also be early in their careers. However the idea of working on and off in shifts won't work either. From personal experience research projects take years to complete when working full time. You walk away from one for even a week and it will take time to get it back on track. No sane researcher would take a job where you'd rotate on for 3-6 months and then rotate off. You'd spend all your time on the island frantically trying to get research up and running, and all time off trying not to get divorced. So you get vastly higher costs (both startup and annual), vastly worse security, nigh impossible recruitment for shift employees which are going to be borderline psychotic in a short while due to the mind-breaking stress from both impossible working conditions and impossible personal/family life, while your year-round workers will have zero retention, and both sets will demand massive salaries and benefits. All that, and work will proceed at a snail's pace if you're lucky.
Before you were shipped off to ND, did anyone tell you how there were beautiful women there behind every tree?
It's true, she's smokin' hot! It is a really nice tree too.
There does seem to be a tradeoff. If you build the lab in Kansas, a breach would affect a much smaller population, and you risk tornados. But the much bigger danger is that if you build the lab in Kansas, you risk not destroying Long Island.
Jay "Hauppauge '89" L
If you search for the terms "evolution" and "hiv" on pubmed you get nearly 5,000 papers back. That's just one disease. One of the big problems about most, probably all, diseases caused by some kind of pathogen is that they have huge population sizes and grow very fast. Evolution can move damn fast under those situations, and that's why we've got multiple-antibiotic resistant bugs out there that didn't exist 30 years ago. If you're working in epidemiology or virology or any disease-related field you're de facto doing evolutionary biology research.
Wrong.
You're throwing around assumptions again.
First of all, there is no proof these antibiotic resistant bugs didn't exist 30 years ago. What we did NOT have 30 years ago was the antibiotics to kill off the rest of the population. All you're observing is that they are dominant now. Why? We're killing off the rest of the population. This should be common knowledge. Unfortunately, too many people have minds that run on one track.
Understanding DNA has nothing to do with Darwinian evolution per se... it has to do with DNA. If you're doing research on some strain of a bacteria that is immune to all known antibiotics, it's not as if it necessarily "evolved" to develop the immunity, but rather has some gene active or inactive in the first place which happens to make it immune. If you're familiar with the process, it's more or less random on finding what gene that new antibiotics should target.
Certainly, this process involves natural selection type scenarios, but the resistant bacteria didn't necessarily develop it in response to our current antibiotics... they are often simply just presenting themselves in higher numbers because they're the only ones that survived (and even thrived).
Now whether you believe they "evolved" to get to be resistant is neither here nor there. The important part is understanding genetics, and how to manipulate them to achieve the desired effect.
Recent HIV research has found that, although incredibly, incredibly rare, some individuals do possess immunity to HIV. It happens to be certain genes that do that... recently evolved? Possible, but not necessarily. Active? 100% yes. Now if the entire population were to be infected with HIV, only those very few would survive, obviously, and soon the majority would have this, because everyone else would be dead. Natural selection? Yes, but not necessarily by developing some new gene in response to an HIV epidemic. For all we know, some people have had this immunity for thousands of years. It just doesn't surface in large numbers until it's vital to survival.
Please don't mix up natural selection concepts with Darwinian evolution concepts. Natural selection is necessary for Darwinian evolution, but not the other way around.
If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.