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US Colleges Say Hiring US Students a Bad Deal
theodp writes "Many US colleges and universities have notices posted on their websites informing US companies that they're tax chumps if they hire students who are US citizens. 'In fact, a company may save money by hiring international students because the majority of them are exempt from Social Security (FICA) and Medicare tax requirements,' advises the taxpayer-supported University of Pittsburgh (pdf) as it makes the case against hiring its own US students. You'll find identical pitches made by the University of Delaware, the University of Cincinnati, Kansas State University, the University of Southern California, the University of Wisconsin, Iowa State University, and other public colleges and universities. The same message is also echoed by private schools, such as John Hopkins University, Brown University, Rollins College and Loyola University Chicago."
the majority of them are exempt from Social Security
The last time I worked with people on an H1B visas, Social Security was paid.
Developers: We can use your help.
That universities, even taxpayer-supported ones, are really out to take your money and give as little as possible in return. Out one side of the mouth: "Come apy us for a degree from here, and you'll get a great job!" Out of the other side: "Errrmmm.... don't hire our students, but we'll take your money for research!"
So is the right course to: change the tax code so that businesses have to pay the same taxes for international workers as for domestic workers (could reduce employment)? reduce the cost of employing domestic workers (could reduce tax revenue)? or further limit the number of work visas issued (could cause shortages of certain types of skilled labor)?
Surely you were supposed to say "1st Post" but anyway this is definitely not a good advert for the universities in question or are they doing it to highlight the inherent discrimination in the system?
Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.
i thought the US needed to encourage more and better American citizens to go to college and become scientists and engineers...
looks like our educational institutions have said, "f that".
i say, "f them"
(i'm not opposed to immigration or people coming to get an education and leave, but i don't think my tax dollars should pay for these colleges to actively sabotage my kids' chances at getting a job.)
"If still these truths be held to be
Self evident."
-Edna St. Vincent Millay
Who is the problem here? The universities who tell it like it is? Or the morons in congress who make it the way it is?
If colleges are actually trying to tell potential employers to _not_ hire American graduates, what incentive is there for Americans to go to their school?
Furthermore, what reason is there to keep the school in this country if they don't want to benefit American students?
I seem to have wandered into LouDobbsDot by accident.
These students I am sure are paying well to be attending those universities and part of that fee is towards support services for their interests.
It doesn't seem unreasonable to me for those services to highlight whatever advantages these students have, because they probably have a lot of disadvantages in language and local knowledge.
Who'd of thought that employers, even state agencies, change their behavior in response to tax policy. If you want employers to hire more workers, make it easier and less expensive to hire and pay.
Oooookaaaay. It's not like the colleges are saying US students are bad. Instead, they're saying that these international students aren't as hard to hire as one might think and that there are benefits to it.
Just because I tell you that you should eat oranges because they're high in Vitamin C doesn't mean that I don't think eating apples is a good idea.
I'm impressed, though, because I've not seen a summary this reactionary and poorly constructed in a long time.
Why on earth would colleges do this? Am I missing something... this just doesn't make sense.
In short, if you work doing something productive in the USA, you will be screwed by any and all organizations because you cost more. Will the last person left with "loyalty to country" please turn off the lights when you go?
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Personally, I think anyone that hires executive talent in the USA is getting a bad deal. I suggest that we outsource all management to India and China where wages are low.
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And what the heck, the management couldn't get much worse.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
I am a UK citizen, but I assumed that this would be the same in the USA:
having a Student visa only means that you are not allowed to work.
having a visa that allows you to work means that you have to pay the same National Insurance (Social Security) and Tax as citizens. The companies also have to pay the same NI contributions
I know that there are some exceptions on the tax front, double taxation allowances etc - but nothing that would affect the employer.
A quick message to the alumni associations of these schools might have a salutary effect on this practice. Something like, "Your alma mater recommends that you Hire UnAmerican", would probably make their next fund-raising drive somewhat interesting.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
I'm finding it mind bogglingly stupid to think that a university would actually tell potential employers NOT to hire their graduates. Why in the hell would anyone attend that school if it would openly sabotage their graduates?
I think what's going on here is the schools are trying to dispel myths about hiring international students. I.e. students who came from other countries to study at THEIR school. So that would be the opposite of sabotaging their graduates. This summary is extremely disingenuous.
And that was the last Terry Fox run I ever participated in.
If you look at these links these are list pertaining to why companies SHOULD hire international students not reasons as to why companies should avoid domestic students.
They are simply trying to "sell" certain types of students (international) to companies by stating the benefits of hiring those types of students, thereby catering to those student's interests.
Nothing to see here.
Since Brown is literally up the road from me, I decided to click on Brown's PDF first, and then the others. I thought maybe there was a breaking story I could submit to the Providence Journal so they could get the whole state of Rhode Island up in arms.
The summary doesn't match the language of the PDFs in the least.
I don't have enough middle fingers for this summary. It's massive troll.
Does that sound like employers can avoid taxes by hiring foreign students? I don't think so, Bob.
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BMO
Read the PDF that is linked in the article. At no point does it advocate hiring international students over United States citizens. The document does mention that a company can conceivably save money since the majority of these students are exempt from Medicare and FICA tax requirements. Furthermore, the document is published by the university's international services department. It is their purpose to try to get the best deal for international students.
This article is trolling. Move on.
The published information for the most part is accurate. The fact that the U.S. workplace law system has devolved to a point where there are significant disadvantages to hiring a citizen is a problem with the system, not with the universities who point out this fact.
In other news, there are even more significant patent law, employment law, liability, insurance cost, employment cost, and tax advantages if you relocate your business outside the U.S. The fact that this is also true is not my fault. Don't kill the messenger, reform the government that led to this mess. In an age where both jobs and companies are free to roam the world, most will settle in places where the cost/benefit ratio of local government is optimal. Unfortunately I can't think of many U.S. states that aren't economic and legal basket-cases at the moment, trying to tax and legislate themselves into oblivion. YMMV.
The title of this article says "U.S. Colleges Say Hiring U.S. Students a Bad Deal". The linked articles and PDF files do not imply that. They merely specify the procedures to hire international students in the US on an F-1 or J-1 visa. Misleading title and summary on Slashdot.
I came into the US education system starting from undergrad to grad school as a foreign student (F and H visas), and I have NEVER heard of anything this stupid. Every employer that hired me during this process paid for all required taxes, even the university themselves when I worked on campus with my F visa.
Wow, great spin job!
Its a fact that FICA and Medicare often don't have to be paid for international students. This is federal law, so it's not surprising that more than one university describes the same factual situation that applies across the country. This is not under the control of the universities.
Note that, due to the various issues with visas, paperwork, etc., international students often struggle to find employment, and so its not unreasonable for universities to advocate on their behalf. Universities also typically have an entire career services group that helps all the American students, so they are hardly neglected.
It takes a fair amount of cynicism (I know, I know, its /.) to spin a university's attempt to support their international students into an attack on their American students.
If you really care about this issue, you should just aggitate against the tax law itself.
Part of the role of universities is to attract foreign talent. This talent is "wasted" if the students are prevented from finding work in the US and immigrating. As much as it's emphasized that the purpose of accepting these students is purely to give them training and that students are expected to return to their countries, it is well understood by all that the reason student visas are granted is to collect talent.
The pages in question are posted by the offices in charge of international students. In recent years, many more jobs require US citizenship, particularly in the fields (read engineering and the sciences) that attract the most international students. It's important for the schools to be able to sell foreign students and new graduates to American companies, because if legal red tape gets in the way, all of the benefits are lost.
If you'd prefer to shut down half of the engineering and science graduate programs in the country and hamstring Silicon Valley, then please urge your elected representative to close this immigration back door. If you're a student worried about your future, put in the library hours and ask your TA questions. If you do, you'll be fine... the foreign students TAing your courses are here to help!
the PDF's are FAQ's on hiring international students. Why? probably because enough international students and companies asked the college what were the implications of hiring an international student. In other words, the schools are doing their job, helping students get into jobs and internships.
Seriously, I looked ad the PDF, and the languages used in the summary, is no where to be found in the provided links. I vote to mod this story off the front page. In fact, I think the "editors" should be able to be moderated.
I read Slashdot for the headlines, because the headlines, unlike the articles, are usually original and never duplicated
Did Lou Dobbs submit that? Please preserve /. from this nonsense; I thought this website was supposed to post "Stuff that matters". All this post offers is an outlet for outrage, self-righteousness, and ugly xenophobia -- natural human traits, but not healthy or helpful ones that we benefit from encouraging. How many people have those websites affected? Isn't there something more consequential going on, that we can put on the front page of /.?
BTW, USC is "one of the world's leading private research universities." It's not a public university like the others listed.
Here is a radical option, drop FICA and Medicare taxes, seeing that College age students will never benefit from the programs because they will be long broke by the time the students reach retirement. Combined that with dropping the aggregate (State + Federal) Corporate tax rate to less than 10% and you will see Companies rushing into the US, bye bye 10% unemployment.
Unfortunately, we are headed in the exact opposite direction with a Government take over of health care. Taxes are going to go through the roof to support all of the spending going on and the US will still not be able to reach it's obligations. Combined that with Cap and Tax, and other countries are starting to look a lot better then the US, especially India and China (sense they don't have the same emissions requirements under Kyoto because they are "developing" countries)
So no, raising taxes in the middle of a recession is not the answer, We are already why to the right on the Laffer Curve and going further to the right is just going to push up unemployment more.
not sure that usc belongs in that first list ...
You'll find identical pitches made by the University of Delaware, the University of Cincinnati, Kansas State University, the University of Southern California, the University of Wisconsin, Iowa State University, and other public colleges and universities. The same messsage is also echoed by private schools ...
My blog
I am from Canada and I worked for 6 years in the US under an H1-B visa. Let me make this absolutely clear: I had to pay ALL THE TAXES.
There is no exemption whatsoever. My paycheck did not look any different from that of an American citizen. Yet, I will never collect any benefits from the money I contributed to Social Security and Medicare. I have worked in Europe as well and at least there I was able to redeem my contributions once I left for good. The US will not allow me to do this though. The money that I have contributed to Social Security and Medicare is gone forever and I will never see the color of it nor I will ever be able to benefit from thr contributions I have made.
Actually, this might be the solution for the budget crisis that these programs are facing in the US. Hire a bunch of foreigners, force them to contribute, and kick them out of the country so that they will never get the benefits. Problem solved.
Cheers
This story should be tagged as a troll story.
First, the documents to which the article links were not written with the intention of convincing U.S. employers to hire students who are non-residents of the United States in place of students who are citizens. Non-resident students are likely no different than any other student in college and need supplemental income to pay for their education. The documents purpose is to enlighten employers about the facts about hiring non-resident students who are in the country on a student visa. Perhaps the author would like to take it one step further and see if they can incite hatred in legal aliens who are here working under a green card as these pamphlets surely must be convincing U.S. employers to hire foreign students studying under a visa in place of legal immigrant workers. Or perhaps not.
Second, if the author bothered to read IRS Publication 519, as the pamphlets suggest, they would have realized that any foreign student studying under a visa in the united states will fall under Social Security and FICA taxes if they are determined to have a substantial presence in the United States.
If a foreign student spends any more time in the U.S. than is necessary to attend school then it is likely they will fall under the substantial presence test and an employer will be required to pay Social Security and FICA taxes for the student they hired. A foreign student who is only available to work a fraction of each year is not a threat to the resident work force or the social services systems paid for by that work force.
As a member of the unemployed I understand the difficulties many people are going through but we can maintain a semblance of intelligence and become informed before making poorly researched rants.
This takes the cake for the best biased review in a very long time. There is nothing in the documents that promotes non-citizens over citizens. Also these documents are incomplete - They should have mentioned that non-citizens have no security clearance for any government job. (That should make the author happy).
You paid social security taxes? My girlfriend was exempted during her practical training, and her stipend did not have SS contributions withheld either. You may be entitled to a refund!
Some employers might not be aware of this and withhold the taxes anyways, but this is improper.
from IRS.GOV
F-visas, J-visas, M-visas, Q-visas. Nonresident alien students, scholars, professors, teachers, trainees, researchers, and other aliens temporarily present in the United States in F-1,J-1,M-1, or Q-1/Q-2 nonimmigrant status are exempt from Social Security / Medicare Taxes on wages paid to them for services performed within the United States as long as such services are allowed by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) for these nonimmigrant statuses, and such services are performed to carry out the purposes for which they were admitted into the United States.
Exempt Employment includes:
On-campus student employment up to 20 hours a week (40 hrs during summer vacations)
Off-campus student employment allowed by USCIS
Practical Training student employment on or off campus
On-campus employment as professor, teacher or researcher
Limitations on exemption:
The exemption does not apply to spouses and children in F-2, J-2, M-2, or Q-3 nonimmigrant status.
The exemption does not apply to employment not allowed by USCIS or to employment not closely connected to the purpose for which they were admitted into the United States.
The exemption does not apply to nonimmigrants in F-1,J-1,M-1,or Q-1/Q-2 status who change nonimmigrant status to a status which is not exempt or to a special protected status.
The exemption does not apply to nonimmigrants in F-1,J-1,M-1, or Q-1/Q-2 status who become resident aliens for tax purposes.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
Sales tax sucks because it slows down the velocity of money. You pay sales tax whenever the dollar circulates which could be many times in a year.
The income tax (while it has the really annoying forms and loss of privacy problems) is assessed on your net profit and once per year. Sales tax is on total sales revenue.
You could do a value added tax (VAT) which is not as bad as straight sales, but it still clobbers commerce and especially high volume business.
As far as fairness goes, the higher the income, the lower the percentage people pay in sales taxes. It's just empirically the way it works out (although there are solid reasons for it).
I hate the sales tax. It's my least favorite kind.
Yoghurt
both F-1 and J-1 are exempt.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=131635,00.html
F-visas, J-visas, M-visas, Q-visas. Nonresident alien students, scholars, professors, teachers, trainees, researchers, and other aliens temporarily present in the United States in F-1,J-1,M-1, or Q-1/Q-2 nonimmigrant status are exempt from Social Security / Medicare Taxes on wages paid to them for services performed within the United States as long as such services are allowed by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) for these nonimmigrant statuses, and such services are performed to carry out the purposes for which they were admitted into the United States.
* Exempt Employment includes:
o On-campus student employment up to 20 hours a week (40 hrs during summer vacations)
o Off-campus student employment allowed by USCIS
o Practical Training student employment on or off campus
o On-campus employment as professor, teacher or researcher
* Limitations on exemption:
o The exemption does not apply to spouses and children in F-2, J-2, M-2, or Q-3 nonimmigrant status.
o The exemption does not apply to employment not allowed by USCIS or to employment not closely connected to the purpose for which they were admitted into the United States.
o The exemption does not apply to nonimmigrants in F-1,J-1,M-1,or Q-1/Q-2 status who change nonimmigrant status to a status which is not exempt or to a special protected status.
o The exemption does not apply to nonimmigrants in F-1,J-1,M-1, or Q-1/Q-2 status who become resident aliens for tax purposes.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
All your job are belong to us!
Seriously, how hard is it to understand LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. As someone who has been out of college for 25 years, I can tell you absolutely that the Tech Boom in America was snuffed out because of cheaper foreign labor and the insane tax incentives given to corporations who use foreign workers. As long as large corporations are allowed to endlessly bribe (lobby) government officials, our government will not function in the interest of its citizens. We live in America Inc.
This article is a troll article.
I seriously doubt these institutions advocate hiring international students over local students.
In fact in many of these universities there are programs TRYING to get MORE American students to join their programs (i.e. engineering/comp sci etc)
One problem with taxes is that there is no accountability for the money. Where do they go? Many people have a big problem with that. And they are right, because it seems governments become more and more bureaucratic, and more bureaucracy requires more money. It seems a big amount of money is lost in corruption as well.
The solution is to pay directly for the public works. Do you want roads? pay for each road. schools? the same. Police? give money to the police. National TV? give money to the TV station. National Health Care System? give money to hospitals directly, separately for each hospital. Do you want to support unemployed people? give the money directly to them. Do you want an army? pay for the army.
In any case, a huge organization like a government is not required. The only thing a huge government achieves with great efficiency is to suck resources up. It's not that, in the past, governments of the world had not achieved great things, but they did so when they were smaller and easier to operate.
While this comment is not directly related to the topic at hand, it is high taxation that leads to saying that hiring US students is a bad deal. Find a cure for the high taxation and then hiring US students may not be such a bad deal after all.
that the average U.S. college graduate is capable of little more than constantly text messaging on their cell phone, updating facebook/twitter, and balking at the notion of actually working? Taxes are the least of my concerns.
I worked at a university and hired a number of student workers and full time employees , and out of the 14 I had exactly ONE was a solid worker. He had no background in IT and was a philosophy grad student who actually had little in the way of interest in computers even. He worked circles around the B.S. holding IT graduates I had.
In case you may think this anecdotal from one experience, previously I managed an IT dept. for a bank and after wading through hundreds of ITT Tech and 4-year college applicants I still had to sacrifice things to hire TWO people. Of those two one turned out to have serious mental health issues and war-related PTSD and had to be let go, and the other was a hipster Apple/iPhone/facebook/twitter/non-worker type. And he was actually the best of the lot.
The current economic crisis will seem like a walk in the park compared to when this generation takes the reigns. Entitlement, self-absorption, lack of work ethic, and all around lack of ownership will not keep things afloat.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
...drop FICA and Medicare taxes, seeing that College age students will never benefit from the programs because they will be long broke by the time the students reach retirement.
Nice sound bite but it is only true if the funding for those programs remains like it is today. I think the odds of that happening is a pretty good approximation of zero. Social Security and Medicare are the largest and most popular government programs out there. It is unlikely Congress will act quickly absent a fiscal emergency but sooner or later they'll have to address the funding of those programs.
Combined that with dropping the aggregate (State + Federal) Corporate tax rate to less than 10% and you will see Companies rushing into the US, bye bye 10% unemployment.
With the additional effect of causing millions of senior citizens who lose their primary income and health care. Which would have a devastating effect on their economic well being. There is no free lunch. Those programs serve a very real and very important purpose in spite of their problems.
We are already why to the right on the Laffer Curve and going further to the right is just going to push up unemployment more.
Sounds to me like you don't actually understand the Laffer Curve. The Laffer Curve hypotheses that there is an optimum tax rate - it might be necessary to raise OR cut taxes to reach that optimum. It does NOT tell you where you are on the Laffer curve, nor does it tell you what that optimum actually is. The Laffer curve does not prescribe or predict - it merely is a theory that an optimum exists. This makes it of limited value. The only way to find out for certain is to change the tax rate and see what happens but it is entirely possible we have a tax rate that is too low. That's the dirty little secret of those who constantly push for lowering taxes claiming that it will increase revenue based on the Laffer curve. You cannot possibly know where you are on that curve so you cannot use the Laffer curve as evidence that cutting taxes (or raising them) will be good policy.
Did you even read the PDF that you linked? The paper is letting employers know that they can hire international students. When I was in school, we had a lot of international students that couldn't get jobs because nobody would hire them. They had to work on campus or for some charity for nil to nothing. Read the articles before you go blast us with ignorance.
When did Fox buy SlashDot?
Sales tax sucks because it slows down the velocity of money. You pay sales tax whenever the dollar circulates which could be many times in a year.
And an income tax is taken off every time the dollar circulates to the company you bought your item when it pays it's employees... what's the difference?
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
That's possibly the most misleading summary I've seen yet
have always had this freedom, to hire a college student on a visa from a foreign country and save a ton on cost. they dont do this for alot of reasons:
contractors are by and large cheaper and easier to manage as a workforce.they have more job experience as well
asok, tan, and habeeb do not speak english as a first language, so their usefulness in a meeting, conference call, emergency or training situation is limited. in some cases ive worked with international students and hires that have served no greater purpose in their career other than a meat calculator I have to interpret before i go into a meeting managers wouldnt dream of including them on.
their eagerness is often mismatched to their ability as a direct result of their urgency to seek citizenship or maintain employment. I've worked with visa holders and foreign grads that insist they understand fibre san, brocade switches, etc...only to find out a month later they havent the slightest idea what theyre doing, have piles of books surrounding them and gallons of coffee working weekends to fix what theyve broken before they START on the task.
did i mention communication? if there is a problem i rarely hear about it. ive sat in team meetings for weeks on end with nodding heads and smiles while my goddamned data storage practically incinerated in an ops center because the pakistani in charge of my CRAC's was frightened to tell me he didnt understand liebert airhandlers and needed help.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Is CmdrTaco a wickedly biased anti-immigration / visa person? That summary has NOTHING to do with the links. The links do NOT say that hiring US students is a bad deal. All the documents do is point out the various laws regarding hiring foreign students in the US.
IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE LAWS IN YOUR COUNTRY THEN CHANGE THEM ...but don't go about trying to do that by blatantly misleading people. Is CmdrTaco really Sarah Palin??
I wonder if pointing that out as a dutiful employee gets me a bonus.
Also, considering the high number of foreign students and the relatively low number of US jobs, even if this was true it's not like companies are magically going to make thousands of positions available for foreign grads. I don't know of any of the foreign undergrads I went to Johns Hopkins with having an easier time getting a job as they have to beg/borrow/steal/jump through hoops getting a visa at the same time.
The purpose of this document is to provide official support to student organizations that do International Summer Internship EXCHANGES like amscan.org, IAESTE, and AIESEC.
When a university hires a foreign student in this case, it is very likely that a student at the same U.S. university will get a summer job in an interesting country, like say, Germany or Japan. I have worked with students on these programs and enjoyed working with them, and I had a friend that went on one of these internships to Finland.
Very frequently the question comes up on slashdot: "How do I work abroad?" THIS IS HOW.
The summary was probably written by some bitter washed up university IT guy looking to stir up trouble.
Fox News lately. amirite?
Most of the J-1 visas are for "International Practical Training" or International Summer Internship EXCHANGES through organizations like amscan.org, IAESTE, and AIESEC.
When a university hires a foreign student in this case, it is very likely that a student at the same U.S. university will get a summer job in an interesting country, like say, Germany or Japan.
I just poked around and it seems that foreign students must play the full price, not the subsidized price in most or all of Europe and are usually not qualified for financial aid at these institutions. If I'm totally off base please reply with some examples as it seems an interesting course in life to follow.
--
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein
Certainly people go to college to better themselves but much of the motivation for that is to improve their employment prospects. If colleges are undermining the efforts of citizen graduates, it gives citizens yet another reason to reconsider the value of a diploma from that college. How much longer will Americans fork over the ever increasing tuition to obtain degrees which no longer help them to obtain high paying jobs as was the case years ago? How much longer will they tolerate funding such giveaways with tax dollars?
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
1) USC is not a public university.
2) If we put effort into training foreign students then we should do everything we can to sucker them into becoming productive and working members of *our* society.
I touch computers in naughty places
The Bush's administration's recent Emergency rule change extended the post grad employment period for F-1 visa holders from 12 to 29 months.. This so called emergency rule change has been the subject of a lawsuit by US citizens who are the victims of wholesale discrimination.
This rule change potentially added another 400,000 workers to the US tech employment pool, which US citizens must compete against. Universities pointing out tax advantages of foreign grad hiring increases the suffering US citizens and GC holders must endure at the hands of the globalists.
Maybe the difference is that the income tax would be assessed after it gets to the next person to recieve the money, while the sales tax could prevent you from spending the money to begin with? I'm also guessing that sales tax sucks a bit more because it's only assessed on certain things, whereas income tax is assessed regardless of how it gets spent.
The University of Southern California is a Private School....
I fail to see how this is applicable. I seem to recall some comment from Obama complaining about the push to buy American made goods as it was demeaning to our northern neighbors. This is much the same.
This is another example of hour our income tax system hurts Americans. We need to call on congress to pass the Fair Tax for real economic stimulus. http://www.fairtax.org/
The document from the University of Delaware linked in the summary makes no "pitch" at all whatsoever. ... you guessed it, information that employers may like to know about hiring international students.
In fact, the document which is entitled "What Employers Should Know About Hiring International Students" really only speaks to
How did this make it to the front page? It's clearly flamebait.
I'm a 2000 man.
Okay... I think this has maybe tipped it over for me, but it seriously seems to me that the government would rather foreigners and criminals to get a job over a law abiding U.S. citizen born and raised on its soil to a law abiding family born and raised on its soil.
I am currently an engineering student at a local community college (I just graduated high school a year ago) in Northern California, and I have had a hell of a time finding a job. All the places you would think a young kid would look for entry-level work (McDonalds, Burger King, washing dishes in a restaurant, etc) have all been sucked up, and I hate to make generalizations here, but the majority of these places who I have friends working there say that these kids the business hires are either on parole or have been on parole. I hate to make another generalization, I have nothing against law-abiding legal Hispanic people who hold up their end of the deal, but a lot of those ex-criminals are Hispanic, usually on counts of drug dealing.
Supposedly, at least in the state of California, businesses can get kick-backs or something for hiring individuals who have been to prison, released, and are\were on parole. And a lot of businesses hire these kids because of that reason, making it difficult for someone who HASN'T been to prison difficult to find some entry-level work, get some respectable experience and references.
Glancing at a few of the websites shows the the focus is clearly on dispelling myths about hiring international students. This is the most biased summary I've ever read on slashdot. As a US citizen in a US university, I have no problem with pages such as that being up to help my friends who are international students get jobs.
"Do not take things out of context! What the document says is companies might save some money if they hire foreigners on F-1 or J-1 visas. It is just so foreigners _who_study_in_the_United_States_ can find a job since employers seem to be under the impression that hiring a foreigner is a hassle."
With the way the recession is currently in the US, it makes no sense for the US govt. to not only allow, but, in some cases expedite bringing foreigners in (or letting them in willy nilly across the border illegally) to fill jobs that our own citizens are in desperate need of...
I don't see that a state funded school should be allowed by the taxpayers of that state to promote the hiring of foreign people over US citizens either...that's not what my tax dollars should be going for...
The Students are not being brought in here to take our jobs, they're here to go to school (while they may eventually take our jobs with the education they have, that is a different argument). All this is trying to do is help them earn some money while they're going to school to help pay for it or have some pocket cash. When I skimmed through the PDF I didn't see anything about long-term jobs after college.
I mean look at California. Their lawmakers couldn't get jack shit done until past the deadline for the budget, and they made things a lot worse because of it. I bet a good 90% of those guys up on the hill are plonkers who get away with coasting because the system is so well designed that most of the time it doesn't need a lot of attention. And when it does, they'll see if they can get away with a bunch of excuses as to why no action can be taken at this time before they actually decide to do any work.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
don't need it.
Why should an international student come to US over a bunch of other countries for their education. What do the universities use to pitch their Universities over the competition. And how do you think most of the Universities make money.
There is zero incentive to hire American in fact the current climate nearly dictates that only a fool would do so.
Got Code?
Just for the record, the University of Southern California is NOT a public school. It is and always has been a private school It is not associated in any way with the University of California. I hope that my employer would not be a party to such a politically embarrassing statement.
Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer, Retired
Let's see if I can get this straight: nine years ago, a consortium of colleges and universities (both public and private) sponsor a project that drafts a document that is intended to act as a "how-to" guide for potential employers considering hiring foreign students, in an effort to overcome FUD (Fear Uncertainty, and Doubt) on the issue. Said Colleges and Universities post the resulting document on their websites, and curious employers are assisted. Then, some fellow ("THEODP"?) see it, brings his xenophobic beliefs to the document, and decides it is a how-to for employers to save on social security/FICA and Medicare contributions... First, you're a jerk, THEODP - you ignore the heading, location, and almost everything on the document to extract your kernel of knowledge. Second, Is there anywhere these universities and colleges have links that say "click here to save 5-10% on employee salaries by avoiding FICA/Medicare contributions!"? NO. If you don't like that foreign students that don't/can't benefit from SS/Medicare don't have to contribute to them, take that up as an issue - don't invent a crisis to soothe your unemployed, xenophobic mind...
Ken
it requires a very long stretch to go from "Generally, F-1 and J-1 students are exempted from social security and Medicare tax requirements" to "you are a chump if you hire an American citizen". give me a break. I got all pissed off until I actually read the pages you link to.
We need universal health care, but it has to be paid for. Lets levy a tax on outsourced labor that we can use to pay for health care.
Why bother
As a former international student, let me state this as plainly as possible.
THE ARTICLE POSTED IS EXTREMELY MIS-LEADING.
Most International Students are NOT ALLOWED TO WORK OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSITY CAMPUS. And guess what kinds of jobs are available inside universities - working in the cafeterias etc for minimum wages if you are lucky. AND you are only allowed to work part-time. And, because you are an international students you have to pay the university substantially more than local students.
The US government provides very few exceptions - and that too if you are able to prove that you are legally broke. What makes it harder is that you have to prove that you have sufficient funds and sources of funds to cover your education before they let you inside the US. So you basically have to prove why you suddenly are completely broke. When i talked to folks at my university ( UCSD ) i found that less than 5% were in this category.
After you finish your work, you are allowed to work in the US for one year. But, guess what, most companies ( 90% upwards ) do not want to go through the paperwork and hassle of hiring international students. So most students go back to their own countries with a huge debt.
US Media is fundamentally sensationalistic - and they stretch the truth. So folks who are frothing at the mouth at the thought of anti-american bias by US universities, ask yourself this question - Does it sound logical? or is it more likely that some idiot has spun things by stretching the truth.
i disagree with all your comments. I was hired by a US company on H1 and was laid off a few months back just to save employees who are citizens, even though I was an expert at my job.
The so called citizens weren't qualified to do my job, neither did they have the skills. That's called protectionism which pisses me off and is unfair.
Even though i understand that a country should take care of its citizens before others, what ever happened to equal employment rights and so on...I feel its all a piece of crap. US companies hire people on H1 and lay them off when they feel like it... What ever happened to the so called free country with freedom for all....
The University of Southern California is not a public institution, it is a private university.
I am not sure that this many people on slashdot have ever actually RTFA... A momentous day indeed
You think like a ReThuglican Jew
John Hopkins? John_ Hopkins?!
Painful to read.
They're called "Mexicans". They're not, really. Most of them are from Latin America or South America. However, they're willing to work with their hands in unskilled labor, while most white and black people are too damn proud or lazy to work. "I deserve to go to college" "I deserve a B because I went to all the classes" "I deserve a job because I graduated"
"Many employers are concerned about liability related to the employment of international students in the
United States due to changes in federal laws governing non-citizens. This handout is provided by the Office of
International Services (OIS) at the University of Pittsburgh to address concerns employers might have about
international students and work. If you have any question, please call 412.624.7120 and ask to speak to an
Immigration Specialist."
Yup. Sounds like advising against hiring US students to me.
More proof that outsourcing of labor is fueled by excessive taxes. Lower the tax burden on Corporations and individuals and watch the economy flourish.. Otherwise you will continue to see business' fleeing to areas where the tax burden is less. Survival of the fittest. You've got to play the game if you want to survive.
Business' cannot get out of California fast enough. Banks that used to be on Wall street are not planning to return. They will go elsewhere. I just don't get what is so difficult to grasp about this concept.
Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
Sorry for being off-topic and I know it's a common mistake, but it's Johns Hopkins.
You didn't even bother to check this story - instead, you loaded a nativist troll story onto the front of one of the most heavily trafficked sites on the Interwebz. I just lost all respect for you.
I'm sure that this was dug up by one of those losers at Programmers Guild.
I have been working on J1 Status and have been tax exempt for 1 year. This is the most you can get, because for the second year, you meet the substancial presence test (183 day in the year in the US) and are not tax exempt anymore. Obviously, as you don't pay for it, you are not eligible to benefits from fica or medicare, event though your revenue would put you in the bracket of people in need. Also think that usually students don't get paid that much, and the state is most probably saving money by excuding non-resident aliens from the program.
Is it really interesting not to be a tax resident alien ? Actually, it turns out it is a lot more interesting to be a tax resident: you can benefit from the economic recovery whatever on your fereral income taxes (that repays virtually anything you'd lost to fica-medicare).
Scenario 1 - Foreign student comes to USA, pays tuition fees, gets education. Proceeds to somehow stay in the US where he puts his education to use. US economy benefits from this student's knowledge gained from his investment in US education even though the US actually made money on his education.
Scenario 2 - Foreign student comes to USA, pays tuition fees, gets education. Is unable to stay in the US for whatever reason and goes back home. US economy loses the benefit of another educated person, foreign economy gets that benefit instead, and the US resources spent educating them end up being lost on the US.
Bottom line: let them stay. If they're better qualified to do the job, hire them. Earmarking jobs for Americans is discriminatory and there is no business case for that kind of protectionism. Let the free labour market decide who is qualified to do what for what price.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Death and taxes 2010
...that the nation's way of taxing its citizens is f***ing insane. Of course, our country's habit of going hopelessly into debt to pay for government entitlements is also nuts. Not to mention that the last time we had a major election, we put someone in office who wants to tax and spend as never before. But never mind all that. Blame the foreigners!
Cap off ALL government grants & subsidies!!
Awesome, nice work theo. Looks like you got the crowd nice and angry. You should apply to CNN. They may replace Lou Dobbs with you for your cool attempts at spreading falsehood. READ the article people. It doesn't advocate recruiting international students but rather provides guidelines to employers who wish to do so with legal information that they would need.
Having been an international student myself , its funny to see these kinds of antics becoming increasingly more prevalent now. Looks like this is from the people at the Programmers Guild. If the USA does not welcome skilled professionals from the world by pursuing sensible immigration policies, then its days as a technological superpower are numbered. And it could only be a few years before, China, followed by India and maybe other countries in the region such as Singapore (as big as Silicon Valley, and tremendously talented workforce) complete the deed. Currently, it takes close to 10 years for an international student with a standing job say from a blue chip tech company like Intel,Google,Cisco or Microsoft to get a Green Card. That is outright crazy.
Give it a few years. You are already seeing students stopping to come to the US to pursue higher studies. And we are also already seeing a reverse brain drain of talented professionals, a high percentage of whom were trained in US universities, returning to their home countries to pursue opportunities there rather than wait for years to be accepted as permanent residents (green card) here. A few more years and we'll reach a tipping point where the GDP growth in those countries, which is already > 5-6%, will encourage budding entrepeneurs to stay there and lead the charge of tech professionals and tech companies (the few that don't already have a presence there) to move there.
The entire story is about talent. If you can't attract and retain it, then you are done. Bill Gates, Tom Friedman, John Chambers, Andy Grove have all encouraged stapling a green card to international students. At around 50-100k per year, (assuming it is restricted to those with job offers), its a tiny drop in the ocean. But yet, Americans are so narrow minded that its incredible to see the foolishness unfold.
That's JOHNS Hopkins, not John!
I know one from my teenage neighborhood crowd.
That very occasionally puts me in contact with these drooling morons.
There are whole apartment complexes full of SS disability alcoholics and drug addicts.
Granting they now can't just call themselves junkies and get a handout.
Now they have to claim they have a 'mental illness' and hire a lawyer to convince the government. Which basically always works if they have the persistence.
We'd be doing them all a favor cutting off their money. Some would die (nothing of value would be lost) but others would get their shit together and become valuable ditch diggers.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I think the spirit of these advertisements is that hiring international students is not illegal. They're not saying hiring American students is bad. Theodp, I think, has completely misrepresented this effort
The Johns Hopkins site states that converting a J-1 to an H-1B does not take a job away from a U.S. citizen. What a load of codswallop! Of course converting a temp to a perm closes out the slot.
It offends me that my tax dollars (in the form of federal grant money) are given to an institution that openly works against the best interests of the people who keep its doors open by distributing such misinformation. The $chool$ $hould be $anctioned in the only language their admini$trator$ under$tand.
In the long run the people of the country will have to pay for SS, Medicare & Medicade. By hiring exempted students, the employer is simply passing the buck onto other companies. If every does it, then the only future solution is higher taxes or program cuts.
I love this. Companies get to improve efficiencies and competition is preserved. I can't wait for the awesome choices this trend will bring consumers like me as the market optimizes our burgeoning educational system. I don't understand what all the fuss is about, if you want the privilege of working for an American corporation you have to compete for the lowest wage like everyone else. This is just more proof that today's American students don't understand Capitalism.
And sales taxes are highly regressive, because the lower one's income, the larger the percentage of income you spend on sales-taxable items (like everyday goods and consumables).
Eliminating income tax in favor of a sales tax would redistribute massive amounts of wealth to the highest income earners, since they wouldn't pay any tax on the large percentage of their income - the income that they don't spend on taxable goods.
Why do we allow this kind of blatant discrimination and racism in America. Local Students (Americans and Permanent Residents) need money to pay for their education also.
American Universities get money from American taxpayers and this is how they pay it back.
Wake up American you should start giving priority to American Citizens first.,