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US Colleges Say Hiring US Students a Bad Deal
theodp writes "Many US colleges and universities have notices posted on their websites informing US companies that they're tax chumps if they hire students who are US citizens. 'In fact, a company may save money by hiring international students because the majority of them are exempt from Social Security (FICA) and Medicare tax requirements,' advises the taxpayer-supported University of Pittsburgh (pdf) as it makes the case against hiring its own US students. You'll find identical pitches made by the University of Delaware, the University of Cincinnati, Kansas State University, the University of Southern California, the University of Wisconsin, Iowa State University, and other public colleges and universities. The same message is also echoed by private schools, such as John Hopkins University, Brown University, Rollins College and Loyola University Chicago."
the majority of them are exempt from Social Security
The last time I worked with people on an H1B visas, Social Security was paid.
Developers: We can use your help.
So is the right course to: change the tax code so that businesses have to pay the same taxes for international workers as for domestic workers (could reduce employment)? reduce the cost of employing domestic workers (could reduce tax revenue)? or further limit the number of work visas issued (could cause shortages of certain types of skilled labor)?
Surely you were supposed to say "1st Post" but anyway this is definitely not a good advert for the universities in question or are they doing it to highlight the inherent discrimination in the system?
Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.
i thought the US needed to encourage more and better American citizens to go to college and become scientists and engineers...
looks like our educational institutions have said, "f that".
i say, "f them"
(i'm not opposed to immigration or people coming to get an education and leave, but i don't think my tax dollars should pay for these colleges to actively sabotage my kids' chances at getting a job.)
"If still these truths be held to be
Self evident."
-Edna St. Vincent Millay
Who is the problem here? The universities who tell it like it is? Or the morons in congress who make it the way it is?
I seem to have wandered into LouDobbsDot by accident.
These students I am sure are paying well to be attending those universities and part of that fee is towards support services for their interests.
It doesn't seem unreasonable to me for those services to highlight whatever advantages these students have, because they probably have a lot of disadvantages in language and local knowledge.
Who'd of thought that employers, even state agencies, change their behavior in response to tax policy. If you want employers to hire more workers, make it easier and less expensive to hire and pay.
Oooookaaaay. It's not like the colleges are saying US students are bad. Instead, they're saying that these international students aren't as hard to hire as one might think and that there are benefits to it.
Just because I tell you that you should eat oranges because they're high in Vitamin C doesn't mean that I don't think eating apples is a good idea.
I'm impressed, though, because I've not seen a summary this reactionary and poorly constructed in a long time.
Why on earth would colleges do this? Am I missing something... this just doesn't make sense.
They get more money from out of state students than they get from local students. They get even more money from out of country students than in-country students.
They want more students alright... just more of the big-money students is all.
I am a UK citizen, but I assumed that this would be the same in the USA:
having a Student visa only means that you are not allowed to work.
having a visa that allows you to work means that you have to pay the same National Insurance (Social Security) and Tax as citizens. The companies also have to pay the same NI contributions
I know that there are some exceptions on the tax front, double taxation allowances etc - but nothing that would affect the employer.
I'm finding it mind bogglingly stupid to think that a university would actually tell potential employers NOT to hire their graduates. Why in the hell would anyone attend that school if it would openly sabotage their graduates?
I think what's going on here is the schools are trying to dispel myths about hiring international students. I.e. students who came from other countries to study at THEIR school. So that would be the opposite of sabotaging their graduates. This summary is extremely disingenuous.
And that was the last Terry Fox run I ever participated in.
If you look at these links these are list pertaining to why companies SHOULD hire international students not reasons as to why companies should avoid domestic students.
They are simply trying to "sell" certain types of students (international) to companies by stating the benefits of hiring those types of students, thereby catering to those student's interests.
Nothing to see here.
Since Brown is literally up the road from me, I decided to click on Brown's PDF first, and then the others. I thought maybe there was a breaking story I could submit to the Providence Journal so they could get the whole state of Rhode Island up in arms.
The summary doesn't match the language of the PDFs in the least.
I don't have enough middle fingers for this summary. It's massive troll.
Does that sound like employers can avoid taxes by hiring foreign students? I don't think so, Bob.
--
BMO
Read the PDF that is linked in the article. At no point does it advocate hiring international students over United States citizens. The document does mention that a company can conceivably save money since the majority of these students are exempt from Medicare and FICA tax requirements. Furthermore, the document is published by the university's international services department. It is their purpose to try to get the best deal for international students.
This article is trolling. Move on.
I came into the US education system starting from undergrad to grad school as a foreign student (F and H visas), and I have NEVER heard of anything this stupid. Every employer that hired me during this process paid for all required taxes, even the university themselves when I worked on campus with my F visa.
If you RTFA instead of the summary you'd see it was a very poor and biased summary. The actual article did not advocate any such position.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
This is about hiring students while they are in college, not about graduates. Can international students even stay after they graduate?
The real reason could be this: International students pay well for their studies. If they hav work, they stay on studying to the end of their courses and can pay their fees. More importantly, they also encourage other students to come and study in the USA.
sudo mount --milk --sugar
Wow, great spin job!
Its a fact that FICA and Medicare often don't have to be paid for international students. This is federal law, so it's not surprising that more than one university describes the same factual situation that applies across the country. This is not under the control of the universities.
Note that, due to the various issues with visas, paperwork, etc., international students often struggle to find employment, and so its not unreasonable for universities to advocate on their behalf. Universities also typically have an entire career services group that helps all the American students, so they are hardly neglected.
It takes a fair amount of cynicism (I know, I know, its /.) to spin a university's attempt to support their international students into an attack on their American students.
If you really care about this issue, you should just aggitate against the tax law itself.
The pdf comes from the office of international services. It lists the statement about hiring international students as being cheaper, only as an answer to "Isn't it more expensive to hire foreigners?"
Come to think of it, this is more like a specific part of the university trying to encourage companies to hire foreign students. Given that it is the office of international services that is doing so, I would think this is not surprising at all, maybe even expected. After all the whole point of such groups is to sell their foreign students. This is like each department pitching that they are the best.
The document is not saying that the companies should not be hiring americans, rather that if they are not hiring foreigners it should not be because it is more expensive to hire them; it is not.
Mountain out of a molehill if you ask me. Had I been an american, I would have ignored this story.
IIRC the only reason they get "more" money from out of state students is because the state funding doesn't pickup part of the tab on them. Whether the money comes from the state or the student's pocket though makes no real difference.
Also, many private colleges were on that list, and virtually no private college charges different rates for in and out of state students.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
sadly not the case.. for NC .. instate tuition goes to people whom have lived here (while not in college ) for 6 months in a permanent residence (showing of bills or your legal guardian showing them as proof of residence is enough).
Basically i know several people from Brazil who came up here for 1-2 years of High school - on the student visa got an apartment - and enrolled in college with instate tuition.
By now they have gotten green cards - but the didn't have that originally when they where getting instate tuition.
'...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
the PDF's are FAQ's on hiring international students. Why? probably because enough international students and companies asked the college what were the implications of hiring an international student. In other words, the schools are doing their job, helping students get into jobs and internships.
Seriously, I looked ad the PDF, and the languages used in the summary, is no where to be found in the provided links. I vote to mod this story off the front page. In fact, I think the "editors" should be able to be moderated.
I read Slashdot for the headlines, because the headlines, unlike the articles, are usually original and never duplicated
Did Lou Dobbs submit that? Please preserve /. from this nonsense; I thought this website was supposed to post "Stuff that matters". All this post offers is an outlet for outrage, self-righteousness, and ugly xenophobia -- natural human traits, but not healthy or helpful ones that we benefit from encouraging. How many people have those websites affected? Isn't there something more consequential going on, that we can put on the front page of /.?
If you expect me to read or understand the topic before I form an opinion, then I str...
HEY LOOK! A PENNY!
I steal signatures. This one used to be yours.
BTW, USC is "one of the world's leading private research universities." It's not a public university like the others listed.
Troll? Wow, I wonder whose ox got gored by that one? Would whoever modded that (or anyone who agrees with its moderation) please explain yourself?
Free Martian Whores!
Here is a radical option, drop FICA and Medicare taxes, seeing that College age students will never benefit from the programs because they will be long broke by the time the students reach retirement. Combined that with dropping the aggregate (State + Federal) Corporate tax rate to less than 10% and you will see Companies rushing into the US, bye bye 10% unemployment.
Unfortunately, we are headed in the exact opposite direction with a Government take over of health care. Taxes are going to go through the roof to support all of the spending going on and the US will still not be able to reach it's obligations. Combined that with Cap and Tax, and other countries are starting to look a lot better then the US, especially India and China (sense they don't have the same emissions requirements under Kyoto because they are "developing" countries)
So no, raising taxes in the middle of a recession is not the answer, We are already why to the right on the Laffer Curve and going further to the right is just going to push up unemployment more.
not sure that usc belongs in that first list ...
You'll find identical pitches made by the University of Delaware, the University of Cincinnati, Kansas State University, the University of Southern California, the University of Wisconsin, Iowa State University, and other public colleges and universities. The same messsage is also echoed by private schools ...
My blog
This story should be tagged as a troll story.
First, the documents to which the article links were not written with the intention of convincing U.S. employers to hire students who are non-residents of the United States in place of students who are citizens. Non-resident students are likely no different than any other student in college and need supplemental income to pay for their education. The documents purpose is to enlighten employers about the facts about hiring non-resident students who are in the country on a student visa. Perhaps the author would like to take it one step further and see if they can incite hatred in legal aliens who are here working under a green card as these pamphlets surely must be convincing U.S. employers to hire foreign students studying under a visa in place of legal immigrant workers. Or perhaps not.
Second, if the author bothered to read IRS Publication 519, as the pamphlets suggest, they would have realized that any foreign student studying under a visa in the united states will fall under Social Security and FICA taxes if they are determined to have a substantial presence in the United States.
If a foreign student spends any more time in the U.S. than is necessary to attend school then it is likely they will fall under the substantial presence test and an employer will be required to pay Social Security and FICA taxes for the student they hired. A foreign student who is only available to work a fraction of each year is not a threat to the resident work force or the social services systems paid for by that work force.
As a member of the unemployed I understand the difficulties many people are going through but we can maintain a semblance of intelligence and become informed before making poorly researched rants.
They get even more money from out of country students than in-country students.
Nope. In both public universities I went to, the fee structure did not differentiate between an out of state student and an international student.
Beetle B.
The fact that the U.S. workplace law system has devolved to a point where there are significant disadvantages to hiring a citizen is a problem with the system, not with the universities who point out this fact.
That's misleading. If you're a tiny company, and want to hire a foreigner, there's a lot of paperwork to do. What the documents are saying is that if you hire them only temporarily (i.e. they don't need to apply for a green card and will leave in 6 years), then there is little work. But if you want to keep that employee, you need to sponsor him. And that takes money and paperwork and can be a headache compared to simply hiring an American.
Furthermore, if they hire for a job that simply requires a BS, they run the risk of the H1-B cap (FYI, if they hire a student, they apply for an H1 after hiring). Two years ago, roughly half of those who applied didn't get it. So now they lose the relatively new hire and have to go through the headache of finding another person.
Beetle B.
This takes the cake for the best biased review in a very long time. There is nothing in the documents that promotes non-citizens over citizens. Also these documents are incomplete - They should have mentioned that non-citizens have no security clearance for any government job. (That should make the author happy).
You paid social security taxes? My girlfriend was exempted during her practical training, and her stipend did not have SS contributions withheld either. You may be entitled to a refund!
Some employers might not be aware of this and withhold the taxes anyways, but this is improper.
from IRS.GOV
F-visas, J-visas, M-visas, Q-visas. Nonresident alien students, scholars, professors, teachers, trainees, researchers, and other aliens temporarily present in the United States in F-1,J-1,M-1, or Q-1/Q-2 nonimmigrant status are exempt from Social Security / Medicare Taxes on wages paid to them for services performed within the United States as long as such services are allowed by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) for these nonimmigrant statuses, and such services are performed to carry out the purposes for which they were admitted into the United States.
Exempt Employment includes:
On-campus student employment up to 20 hours a week (40 hrs during summer vacations)
Off-campus student employment allowed by USCIS
Practical Training student employment on or off campus
On-campus employment as professor, teacher or researcher
Limitations on exemption:
The exemption does not apply to spouses and children in F-2, J-2, M-2, or Q-3 nonimmigrant status.
The exemption does not apply to employment not allowed by USCIS or to employment not closely connected to the purpose for which they were admitted into the United States.
The exemption does not apply to nonimmigrants in F-1,J-1,M-1,or Q-1/Q-2 status who change nonimmigrant status to a status which is not exempt or to a special protected status.
The exemption does not apply to nonimmigrants in F-1,J-1,M-1, or Q-1/Q-2 status who become resident aliens for tax purposes.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
Sales tax sucks because it slows down the velocity of money. You pay sales tax whenever the dollar circulates which could be many times in a year.
The income tax (while it has the really annoying forms and loss of privacy problems) is assessed on your net profit and once per year. Sales tax is on total sales revenue.
You could do a value added tax (VAT) which is not as bad as straight sales, but it still clobbers commerce and especially high volume business.
As far as fairness goes, the higher the income, the lower the percentage people pay in sales taxes. It's just empirically the way it works out (although there are solid reasons for it).
I hate the sales tax. It's my least favorite kind.
Yoghurt
both F-1 and J-1 are exempt.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=131635,00.html
F-visas, J-visas, M-visas, Q-visas. Nonresident alien students, scholars, professors, teachers, trainees, researchers, and other aliens temporarily present in the United States in F-1,J-1,M-1, or Q-1/Q-2 nonimmigrant status are exempt from Social Security / Medicare Taxes on wages paid to them for services performed within the United States as long as such services are allowed by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) for these nonimmigrant statuses, and such services are performed to carry out the purposes for which they were admitted into the United States.
* Exempt Employment includes:
o On-campus student employment up to 20 hours a week (40 hrs during summer vacations)
o Off-campus student employment allowed by USCIS
o Practical Training student employment on or off campus
o On-campus employment as professor, teacher or researcher
* Limitations on exemption:
o The exemption does not apply to spouses and children in F-2, J-2, M-2, or Q-3 nonimmigrant status.
o The exemption does not apply to employment not allowed by USCIS or to employment not closely connected to the purpose for which they were admitted into the United States.
o The exemption does not apply to nonimmigrants in F-1,J-1,M-1,or Q-1/Q-2 status who change nonimmigrant status to a status which is not exempt or to a special protected status.
o The exemption does not apply to nonimmigrants in F-1,J-1,M-1, or Q-1/Q-2 status who become resident aliens for tax purposes.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
One problem with taxes is that there is no accountability for the money. Where do they go? Many people have a big problem with that. And they are right, because it seems governments become more and more bureaucratic, and more bureaucracy requires more money. It seems a big amount of money is lost in corruption as well.
The solution is to pay directly for the public works. Do you want roads? pay for each road. schools? the same. Police? give money to the police. National TV? give money to the TV station. National Health Care System? give money to hospitals directly, separately for each hospital. Do you want to support unemployed people? give the money directly to them. Do you want an army? pay for the army.
In any case, a huge organization like a government is not required. The only thing a huge government achieves with great efficiency is to suck resources up. It's not that, in the past, governments of the world had not achieved great things, but they did so when they were smaller and easier to operate.
While this comment is not directly related to the topic at hand, it is high taxation that leads to saying that hiring US students is a bad deal. Find a cure for the high taxation and then hiring US students may not be such a bad deal after all.
that the average U.S. college graduate is capable of little more than constantly text messaging on their cell phone, updating facebook/twitter, and balking at the notion of actually working? Taxes are the least of my concerns.
I worked at a university and hired a number of student workers and full time employees , and out of the 14 I had exactly ONE was a solid worker. He had no background in IT and was a philosophy grad student who actually had little in the way of interest in computers even. He worked circles around the B.S. holding IT graduates I had.
In case you may think this anecdotal from one experience, previously I managed an IT dept. for a bank and after wading through hundreds of ITT Tech and 4-year college applicants I still had to sacrifice things to hire TWO people. Of those two one turned out to have serious mental health issues and war-related PTSD and had to be let go, and the other was a hipster Apple/iPhone/facebook/twitter/non-worker type. And he was actually the best of the lot.
The current economic crisis will seem like a walk in the park compared to when this generation takes the reigns. Entitlement, self-absorption, lack of work ethic, and all around lack of ownership will not keep things afloat.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
...drop FICA and Medicare taxes, seeing that College age students will never benefit from the programs because they will be long broke by the time the students reach retirement.
Nice sound bite but it is only true if the funding for those programs remains like it is today. I think the odds of that happening is a pretty good approximation of zero. Social Security and Medicare are the largest and most popular government programs out there. It is unlikely Congress will act quickly absent a fiscal emergency but sooner or later they'll have to address the funding of those programs.
Combined that with dropping the aggregate (State + Federal) Corporate tax rate to less than 10% and you will see Companies rushing into the US, bye bye 10% unemployment.
With the additional effect of causing millions of senior citizens who lose their primary income and health care. Which would have a devastating effect on their economic well being. There is no free lunch. Those programs serve a very real and very important purpose in spite of their problems.
We are already why to the right on the Laffer Curve and going further to the right is just going to push up unemployment more.
Sounds to me like you don't actually understand the Laffer Curve. The Laffer Curve hypotheses that there is an optimum tax rate - it might be necessary to raise OR cut taxes to reach that optimum. It does NOT tell you where you are on the Laffer curve, nor does it tell you what that optimum actually is. The Laffer curve does not prescribe or predict - it merely is a theory that an optimum exists. This makes it of limited value. The only way to find out for certain is to change the tax rate and see what happens but it is entirely possible we have a tax rate that is too low. That's the dirty little secret of those who constantly push for lowering taxes claiming that it will increase revenue based on the Laffer curve. You cannot possibly know where you are on that curve so you cannot use the Laffer curve as evidence that cutting taxes (or raising them) will be good policy.
Did you even read the PDF that you linked? The paper is letting employers know that they can hire international students. When I was in school, we had a lot of international students that couldn't get jobs because nobody would hire them. They had to work on campus or for some charity for nil to nothing. Read the articles before you go blast us with ignorance.
The money that I have contributed to Social Security and Medicare is gone forever and I will never see the color of it nor I will ever be able to benefit from thr contributions I have made.
Don't worry, US citizens in my generation are in the same boat...
If it's anything like England it's because there is a limit on the amount universities here can charge students to attend university.
There is however no limit for foreign students, so foreign students effectively subsidise native students in England.
As such universities here love foreign students and will go a long way to get them because it simply means more money for better resources and for better pay. It does in a way benefit native students then because they're going to universities that are better resourced than they normally would be.
Sales tax sucks because it slows down the velocity of money. You pay sales tax whenever the dollar circulates which could be many times in a year.
And an income tax is taken off every time the dollar circulates to the company you bought your item when it pays it's employees... what's the difference?
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
have always had this freedom, to hire a college student on a visa from a foreign country and save a ton on cost. they dont do this for alot of reasons:
contractors are by and large cheaper and easier to manage as a workforce.they have more job experience as well
asok, tan, and habeeb do not speak english as a first language, so their usefulness in a meeting, conference call, emergency or training situation is limited. in some cases ive worked with international students and hires that have served no greater purpose in their career other than a meat calculator I have to interpret before i go into a meeting managers wouldnt dream of including them on.
their eagerness is often mismatched to their ability as a direct result of their urgency to seek citizenship or maintain employment. I've worked with visa holders and foreign grads that insist they understand fibre san, brocade switches, etc...only to find out a month later they havent the slightest idea what theyre doing, have piles of books surrounding them and gallons of coffee working weekends to fix what theyve broken before they START on the task.
did i mention communication? if there is a problem i rarely hear about it. ive sat in team meetings for weeks on end with nodding heads and smiles while my goddamned data storage practically incinerated in an ops center because the pakistani in charge of my CRAC's was frightened to tell me he didnt understand liebert airhandlers and needed help.
Good people go to bed earlier.
"If you RTFA instead of the summary you'd see it was a very poor and biased summary. The actual article did not advocate any such position."
Exactly. While the article is correct that the University of Pittsburgh pdf does say:
"In fact, a company may save money by hiring international students because the majority of them are exempt from Social Security (FICA) and Medicare tax requirements."
Which sounds awful, it goes on to say:
"How long can international students work in the United States with their student visa?
F-1 students are eligible for curricular practical training before completing their studies, as well as an additional 12 months of optional practical training, either before or following graduation, or a combination of the two. However, if they work full-time for one year or more of curricular practical training, they are not eligible for Optional Practical Training. Students with a J-1 visa are usually eligible to work up to 18 months following graduation. They may also be eligible to work part-time during their program of study. The Responsible Officer (RO) or Alternate Responsible Officer (ARO) will evaluate each studentâ(TM)s situation to determine the length of time for which they are eligible to work."
Unless they're hiring McD's employees, no one wants to hire someone that is guaranteed to leave in 18 months. If you hire someone and trained them two weeks you have thousands of dollars wrapped up in them already, with the cost of their salary and the salary of their trainer, plus any additional training expenses, even after that it'll take many weeks before they catch up with the rest of the team and they'll take co-workers away from their work to answer questions, which is more money lost.
That is why it has always shocked me at how easily a single manager can decide to fire someone because they got a hair up their ass because it's equivalent to stealing many thousands of dollars from the company. If you're going to fire them do it in the first month, don't do it 6 months after they're hired, when all that time and money has been invested in them. Every job should be a 1 to 3 month "contract to hire" position with weekly evaluations, so you can sit down with the employee every week and say "Gee, I have seen you do that lately. At XYZ, we do not do that, we do this" and have them sign it and keep it so they understand they need to improve and if they don't shape up, fire them next week. Oh, and have a open door policy that employees know exist (hang it in the bathroom or something), so if an employee feels a manager is targeting them unfairly there's someone to talk to because I think we've all seen managers going after people for the wrong reasons.
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
I would have expected something like this from kdawson, not Taco. The pdf from the University of Pittsburgh is just an informative pamphlet for companies looking to hire students while the student is in school (such as internships and co-ops). Specifically "F-1 students are eligible for curricular practical training before completing their studies, as well as an additional 12 months of optional practical training, either before or following graduation, or a combination of the two." It also points out that Medical and Social Security should be withheld if the student is considered a "resident alien" for tax purposes. In other words, foreign students who are living full time in the US while going to school are taxed like everyone else.
I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
sadly not the case.. for NC .. instate tuition goes to people whom have lived here (while not in college ) for 6 months in a permanent residence (showing of bills or your legal guardian showing them as proof of residence is enough).
Basically i know several people from Brazil who came up here for 1-2 years of High school - on the student visa got an apartment - and enrolled in college with instate tuition.
By now they have gotten green cards - but the didn't have that originally when they where getting instate tuition.
This is BS. If you answer the questions on the application for residency status truthfully, establishing residency for tuition purposes in North Carolina is actually pretty difficult. The situation described in the parent post, students coming to the US on a student visa for the last 1-2 years of highschool and renting an appartment wouldn't cut it. The only way these people from Brazil might have been able to qualify for in-state residency was if they moved in with relatives who were permanent North Carolina residents and the relatives became their legal guardians. From the NC State web page: For any person under 18 years old, the traditional common law generally presumes that minors share the same legal residency as their parents. Thus, if both parents have established legal residency, the minor will also have legal residency in N. C. If the minorâ(TM)s parents are divorced/separated with one living in N. C. and one living out-of-state, the minor may be presumed to share legal residency with the in-state parent if the in-state parent claims the minor as a dependent for tax purposes. Some exceptions exist (see GS 116-143.1(j) and k). If anything, it is more difficult to establish residency if you are over 18. North Carolina requires that you live in the state for 1 year (not six months) before you can be eligible to enroll as an in-state student. In addition, you can't just live here on daddy's dime, you have to show that you have the resources (generally a job) to stay here without assistance from parents, or other guardians that live out of state. If you leave the state for traditional school holidays (spring break, Christmas break, summer break etc.) you pretty much lose in-state residency for tuition purposes. If you have an out of state drivers license, you don't get in-state tuition. If your car is registered or insured in another state - no in-state tuition for you. The list goes on. For non-US citizens, you must provide proof that you are eligible to remain in the United States permanently. Anyone that is at the university on a Student visa (like the hypothetical Brazilian students in the parent post) are automatically disqualified from receiving in-state tuition. And they do read the application for in-state tuition. I've been a North Carolina resident for my entire life, but prior to when I started graduate school in the late 1990s my job had me out of state for six consecutive weeks. One of the questions on my in-state residency application was "Have you been out of NC for more than 30 consecutive days in the last year" The yes answer was an automatic denial of in-state residency. I had to appeal the decisioin, provide proof that I had maintained a legal residence in NC, that I never changed car registration, etc. before I was able to get in state residency for tuition purposes. Here's a link to the NC State page describing the process for establishing NC residency for tuition purposes. http://www.ncsu.edu/legal/legal_topics/residency.php#II No argument that there are lots of problems with immigration, student visas and so on. This just isn't one of them
I wonder if pointing that out as a dutiful employee gets me a bonus.
Also, considering the high number of foreign students and the relatively low number of US jobs, even if this was true it's not like companies are magically going to make thousands of positions available for foreign grads. I don't know of any of the foreign undergrads I went to Johns Hopkins with having an easier time getting a job as they have to beg/borrow/steal/jump through hoops getting a visa at the same time.
The purpose of this document is to provide official support to student organizations that do International Summer Internship EXCHANGES like amscan.org, IAESTE, and AIESEC.
When a university hires a foreign student in this case, it is very likely that a student at the same U.S. university will get a summer job in an interesting country, like say, Germany or Japan. I have worked with students on these programs and enjoyed working with them, and I had a friend that went on one of these internships to Finland.
Very frequently the question comes up on slashdot: "How do I work abroad?" THIS IS HOW.
The summary was probably written by some bitter washed up university IT guy looking to stir up trouble.
Most of the J-1 visas are for "International Practical Training" or International Summer Internship EXCHANGES through organizations like amscan.org, IAESTE, and AIESEC.
When a university hires a foreign student in this case, it is very likely that a student at the same U.S. university will get a summer job in an interesting country, like say, Germany or Japan.
So you'll be buying only things that are "Made in USA"?
Only be watching movies produced, shot or have post production entirely within the USA? (Here's a tip.. don't watch *any* movies.. it's probably safer that way as far as your loyalty is concerned)
Only be buying food grown in the USA?
Not using Linux? Since many of the contributors aren't US programmers.
I mean.. sure.. it's much more expensive to only buy local.. but hey.. you'll be loyal that way.
Sadly the world just doesn't work the way you want it to. Lowest price wins.. country/state/provinces with the best tax incentives wins. Quality is in competition with price.. but it is possible to have both. For many things it's great to buy local.. but if you want to live in a world where "loyalty to country" exists.. talk to the consumers first.. *we're* the ones pushing prices down, requiring things like outsourcing, etc.
--
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein
Certainly people go to college to better themselves but much of the motivation for that is to improve their employment prospects. If colleges are undermining the efforts of citizen graduates, it gives citizens yet another reason to reconsider the value of a diploma from that college. How much longer will Americans fork over the ever increasing tuition to obtain degrees which no longer help them to obtain high paying jobs as was the case years ago? How much longer will they tolerate funding such giveaways with tax dollars?
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
1) USC is not a public university.
2) If we put effort into training foreign students then we should do everything we can to sucker them into becoming productive and working members of *our* society.
I touch computers in naughty places
The Bush's administration's recent Emergency rule change extended the post grad employment period for F-1 visa holders from 12 to 29 months.. This so called emergency rule change has been the subject of a lawsuit by US citizens who are the victims of wholesale discrimination.
This rule change potentially added another 400,000 workers to the US tech employment pool, which US citizens must compete against. Universities pointing out tax advantages of foreign grad hiring increases the suffering US citizens and GC holders must endure at the hands of the globalists.
well this was also 10 years ago.. but it did happen..
glad to know that it isn't that easy
'...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
I fail to see how this is applicable. I seem to recall some comment from Obama complaining about the push to buy American made goods as it was demeaning to our northern neighbors. This is much the same.
Agreed. I read several of the docs and I don't see where they're advocating what is in the summary. Why try to propagate fear?
The document from the University of Delaware linked in the summary makes no "pitch" at all whatsoever. ... you guessed it, information that employers may like to know about hiring international students.
In fact, the document which is entitled "What Employers Should Know About Hiring International Students" really only speaks to
How did this make it to the front page? It's clearly flamebait.
I'm a 2000 man.
International students from certain branches are allowed to work for 29 months (which was 12 months previously) during which they can quite easily obtain a H1B visa.
True - forgot about that.
However, even that has caveats. The company has to participate in the STEM program to be eligible for that. Probably all the big companies engage in it, but many intermediate ones don't. I know quite a few people who worked for an employer (technology/science jobs) that were not part of the program, and so their OPT's would not be extended (most got the H1, so it wasn't an issue).
Beetle B.
Glancing at a few of the websites shows the the focus is clearly on dispelling myths about hiring international students. This is the most biased summary I've ever read on slashdot. As a US citizen in a US university, I have no problem with pages such as that being up to help my friends who are international students get jobs.
Because your comments appeared to be based on the inflammatory summary, and not the linked article itself. The summary was only vaguely similar to the article, and the apparent quote
In fact, a company may save money by hiring international students because the majority of them are exempt from Social Security (FICA) and Medicare tax requirements,
was simply fabricated.
Not using Linux? Since many of the contributors aren't US programmers.
Windows and OSX are right out too, for that matter... gogogo H1B!
I mean look at California. Their lawmakers couldn't get jack shit done until past the deadline for the budget, and they made things a lot worse because of it. I bet a good 90% of those guys up on the hill are plonkers who get away with coasting because the system is so well designed that most of the time it doesn't need a lot of attention. And when it does, they'll see if they can get away with a bunch of excuses as to why no action can be taken at this time before they actually decide to do any work.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Why should an international student come to US over a bunch of other countries for their education. What do the universities use to pitch their Universities over the competition. And how do you think most of the Universities make money.
You're a liar. The quote is accurate. It appears at the top of page 3 of the University of Pittsburgh publication "What Employers Should Know About Hiring International Students".
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
There is zero incentive to hire American in fact the current climate nearly dictates that only a fool would do so.
Got Code?
Just for the record, the University of Southern California is NOT a public school. It is and always has been a private school It is not associated in any way with the University of California. I hope that my employer would not be a party to such a politically embarrassing statement.
Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer, Retired
Unless they're hiring McD's employees, no one wants to hire someone that is guaranteed to leave in 18 months
You really think that the employer won't try and get the employee on an H1B visa or get their green card or whatever will ensure that the employee can continue working for them?
Let's see if I can get this straight: nine years ago, a consortium of colleges and universities (both public and private) sponsor a project that drafts a document that is intended to act as a "how-to" guide for potential employers considering hiring foreign students, in an effort to overcome FUD (Fear Uncertainty, and Doubt) on the issue. Said Colleges and Universities post the resulting document on their websites, and curious employers are assisted. Then, some fellow ("THEODP"?) see it, brings his xenophobic beliefs to the document, and decides it is a how-to for employers to save on social security/FICA and Medicare contributions... First, you're a jerk, THEODP - you ignore the heading, location, and almost everything on the document to extract your kernel of knowledge. Second, Is there anywhere these universities and colleges have links that say "click here to save 5-10% on employee salaries by avoiding FICA/Medicare contributions!"? NO. If you don't like that foreign students that don't/can't benefit from SS/Medicare don't have to contribute to them, take that up as an issue - don't invent a crisis to soothe your unemployed, xenophobic mind...
Ken
It wasn't my comment that was modded troll that I was commenting on, it was hyades1's comment. Basing a mod on the fact that the commenter only read the summary instead of TFA is bad form; very bad form. Don't blame a commenter for a bad summary. I would have modded his comment "interesting".
Free Martian Whores!
We need universal health care, but it has to be paid for. Lets levy a tax on outsourced labor that we can use to pay for health care.
Why bother
Depends on the position and the importance to the company. While some companies hire their interns and co-op students after graduation, most of them do not as most student positions are temporary and often part-time such as cashier clerk, receptionists, etc. The article is more of a FAQ on hiring international students to dispel misinformation that employers might have and to reassure them that hiring them is okay.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
I am not sure that this many people on slashdot have ever actually RTFA... A momentous day indeed
"Many employers are concerned about liability related to the employment of international students in the
United States due to changes in federal laws governing non-citizens. This handout is provided by the Office of
International Services (OIS) at the University of Pittsburgh to address concerns employers might have about
international students and work. If you have any question, please call 412.624.7120 and ask to speak to an
Immigration Specialist."
Yup. Sounds like advising against hiring US students to me.
More proof that outsourcing of labor is fueled by excessive taxes. Lower the tax burden on Corporations and individuals and watch the economy flourish.. Otherwise you will continue to see business' fleeing to areas where the tax burden is less. Survival of the fittest. You've got to play the game if you want to survive.
Business' cannot get out of California fast enough. Banks that used to be on Wall street are not planning to return. They will go elsewhere. I just don't get what is so difficult to grasp about this concept.
Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
I'm sure that this was dug up by one of those losers at Programmers Guild.
Honestly I have no clue on how it works in most of Europe. In Norway tuition is free even for foreign students. There is a sign up fee of about 50$ per semester which is negligible. In Sweden it is free until 2010 because the new government has decided that non-Europeans should pay roughly $10000 per semester which is totally pathetic. There is no better advertising for a country than free education. Denmark and Finland is also free if the student is enrolled in an exchange program. And Iceland is also tuition free. Maybe it's a Scandinavian thing.
But yes, it is still possible for non-Europeans to receive free university education here.
Football Odds
Scenario 1 - Foreign student comes to USA, pays tuition fees, gets education. Proceeds to somehow stay in the US where he puts his education to use. US economy benefits from this student's knowledge gained from his investment in US education even though the US actually made money on his education.
Scenario 2 - Foreign student comes to USA, pays tuition fees, gets education. Is unable to stay in the US for whatever reason and goes back home. US economy loses the benefit of another educated person, foreign economy gets that benefit instead, and the US resources spent educating them end up being lost on the US.
Bottom line: let them stay. If they're better qualified to do the job, hire them. Earmarking jobs for Americans is discriminatory and there is no business case for that kind of protectionism. Let the free labour market decide who is qualified to do what for what price.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Cap off ALL government grants & subsidies!!
Awesome, nice work theo. Looks like you got the crowd nice and angry. You should apply to CNN. They may replace Lou Dobbs with you for your cool attempts at spreading falsehood. READ the article people. It doesn't advocate recruiting international students but rather provides guidelines to employers who wish to do so with legal information that they would need.
Having been an international student myself , its funny to see these kinds of antics becoming increasingly more prevalent now. Looks like this is from the people at the Programmers Guild. If the USA does not welcome skilled professionals from the world by pursuing sensible immigration policies, then its days as a technological superpower are numbered. And it could only be a few years before, China, followed by India and maybe other countries in the region such as Singapore (as big as Silicon Valley, and tremendously talented workforce) complete the deed. Currently, it takes close to 10 years for an international student with a standing job say from a blue chip tech company like Intel,Google,Cisco or Microsoft to get a Green Card. That is outright crazy.
Give it a few years. You are already seeing students stopping to come to the US to pursue higher studies. And we are also already seeing a reverse brain drain of talented professionals, a high percentage of whom were trained in US universities, returning to their home countries to pursue opportunities there rather than wait for years to be accepted as permanent residents (green card) here. A few more years and we'll reach a tipping point where the GDP growth in those countries, which is already > 5-6%, will encourage budding entrepeneurs to stay there and lead the charge of tech professionals and tech companies (the few that don't already have a presence there) to move there.
The entire story is about talent. If you can't attract and retain it, then you are done. Bill Gates, Tom Friedman, John Chambers, Andy Grove have all encouraged stapling a green card to international students. At around 50-100k per year, (assuming it is restricted to those with job offers), its a tiny drop in the ocean. But yet, Americans are so narrow minded that its incredible to see the foolishness unfold.
I know one from my teenage neighborhood crowd.
That very occasionally puts me in contact with these drooling morons.
There are whole apartment complexes full of SS disability alcoholics and drug addicts.
Granting they now can't just call themselves junkies and get a handout.
Now they have to claim they have a 'mental illness' and hire a lawyer to convince the government. Which basically always works if they have the persistence.
We'd be doing them all a favor cutting off their money. Some would die (nothing of value would be lost) but others would get their shit together and become valuable ditch diggers.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I think the spirit of these advertisements is that hiring international students is not illegal. They're not saying hiring American students is bad. Theodp, I think, has completely misrepresented this effort
I love this. Companies get to improve efficiencies and competition is preserved. I can't wait for the awesome choices this trend will bring consumers like me as the market optimizes our burgeoning educational system. I don't understand what all the fuss is about, if you want the privilege of working for an American corporation you have to compete for the lowest wage like everyone else. This is just more proof that today's American students don't understand Capitalism.