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Microsoft Attacks Linux With Retail-Training Talking Points
DesiVideoGamer writes "Over at Overclock.net, a user has posted screen-shots from Microsoft's 'ExpertZone' training course entitled 'Linux vs. Windows 7.' This course is available to BestBuy employees and will make them eligible for a $10 copy of Windows 7 upon completion." The screenshots linked show at least some creative interpretations of the state of Linux vs. Windows on a wide range of things, from media playback and video conferencing to ease of updates to (of all things) keeping your PCs "safer." Most of the claims, though, aren't concrete enough to be perfectly refuted. Writes DesiVideoGamer, "I think I now know why, when I enter BestBuy, the employees say the odd lies that they do."
This course is available to BestBuy employees and will make them eligible for a $10 copy of Windows 7 upon completion.
I'll take the damn course if it'll get me a $10 copy of Win 7.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
No profit in free. What's the cheapest way of getting Windows 7? Buy a new computer. Who sells new computers? BestBuy. How do you get Linux? You download it for free and install it on your existing computer. Who doesn't sell you a new computer? BestBuy.
So what?
Linux vendors would do exactly the same thing. Who is to say which OS is safer for example? It entirely depends on what metric you use to measure it. If for example you look at number of "hacker" style compromises then Linux is the worse but if we're looking at automatic spyware infection then obviously Windows is almost the only OS in that category.
I don't blame Microsoft for selling their products. That is what a software company SHOULD do. The only reason these are "stories" is because people [incorrectly] feel Linux is a community effort and that any attack on Linux is an attack on this community. But when you look at the people who donate MOST Linux code you'll quickly discover that Linux is about as community as Windows is...
So really this is just a slam at the Linux Vendors who have the cash to answer it...
There are not OS X Netbooks yet, though.
I'm thinking of buying a netbook as a second machine for net access and mobile broadband. Should I get one with XP or can I run Linux?
M Shuttleworth
Linux has an apparently friendly front end, but is very demanding if you go any deeper. Linux is like the Mooncup: a nice idea, but messy and not for the squeamish. In fact, Linux can be likened to a Mooncup-using redhaired hippie girlfriend who lives in a house in the country she built herself from twigs and has very strong ideas on how everything should be and has all her original body hair. The sex is fantastic, but only if she thinks the astrological conditions are perfect. The house has a hand-dug latrine, so she's propped a toilet bowl on top and thinks that's "user friendliness."
No, no. You would far prefer Windows. That's like a nice normal bottle-blonde girlfriend who has a proper office job and dresses cleanly from Primark and has a sweet smile and lives in a proper bedsit and knows everyone and how to act normally and is accepted in society. She gets headaches a lot and fits of rage where she smashes everything and there's an odd smell of decaying human flesh coming from the drains and the toilet backs up every now and then filling the entire block with sewage and bits of bodies, but this is entirely normal and nothing to worry about.
My four-year-old PowerBook G4 is putting itself into sleep mode and refusing to wake up. It gives a very unfriendly beep and a black screen when it is turned on. Taking out and replacing the memory will eventually bring it to life.
S Jobs
This is a known fault in the Macintosh line, where the keyboards were dipped in vats of herpes virus before being shipped. Mac OS X is well known to induce symptoms similar to tertiary syphilis in long-term users -- ask anyone with Mac-using friends. The G4 has an old PowerPC chip, and is obsolete because Apple has long since moved to Intel chips. So at least you can run a proper operating system like Vista on the new ones.
I have a PC bought from Dell, a proper computer company, and am running Microsoft(tm) Windows(tm) Vista(tm) Service Pack 1(tm). It's the best operating system ever in the entire universe and I can do anything those annoying Mac users and Linux nerds can. And Windows 7(tm) will be even better! I don't have a problem, I just wanted to tell you this to piss off those annoying anti-Microsoft trolls who keep commenting on your Guardian column.
J Schofield
This is an excellent start to a perfect computing experience. Make sure you have only genuine Microsoft software on the system, and donâ(TM)t ever use Firefox in case your penis shrinks -- Internet Explorer 8 guarantees you will get many useful email offers for a greatly increased penis with incredible sperm production capability. Also, Google will invade your privacy and put pictures of you masturbating on Google StreetView, so only use Bing. Happy surfing!
http://rocknerd.co.uk
... but this is SOP. Every tech company out there mixes batches of kool-aid to serve to their customers and retail partners. Of course, most aren't this pathetically bad at it.
I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
Sales and Marketing people have always been people incapable of coherent thought or doing honest work. They'll do whatever they can to get more money. The only thing worse than them are Executives.
But that's just how the world works, there's no use in lamenting this. It's certainly interesting to see this, but there's no need to act like this was some big surprise. Every company acts like this. A society composed of only honest people doing honest work probably wouldn't work - nobody has tried yet, though.
Attending marketing seminars for free stuff? I don't think so :)
I don't hate Linux (in fact, I run it on all of my machines), but this is why Linux has not become popular on the desktop.
The first reply to the topic says this:
"Um WOW. THeir full of them selves. And if something dose not work with linux you can compile your own code and make it work."
It's this kind of mentality that keeps Linux from becoming more accessible. Imagine that you install Linux for your mom, and she can't get so and so program to work, so you tell her to just go into the source and edit a few things and recompile it. That's just not going to work.
You are now manually breathing.
The way to refute an inconcrete reply is with an answer that is equally inconcrete. For example, in one of the slides, they say "Windows is safer than Linux." The quickest way to refute it is to laugh. You don't even need to answer. If they try to hit on an emotional level, hit back on an emotional level. Once they come back with a more concrete assertion, you can begin refuting it on a more concrete level.
"Windows is safer because it has parental controls." Ooh, check out that argument, a clear attempt to change the subject. A typical geek will start by trying to think of any Linux software that can handle parental controls, and if there isn't one, start thinking of ways to write scripts and set permissions that will simulate it. Easier way to handle it is to smirk slightly, and say, "yeah, like that will keep hackers out." Roll your eyes. Don't let them get away with ridiculous arguments.
On the other hand, Microsoft is right in some of their points, Linux has fewer games available, Linux has less software available, Linux has fewer drivers available. Those are my biggest complaints with Linux too. In fact, they may be my only complaints.
Qxe4
One of the slides reads "Nothing is as complete as Windows 7".
Really? Three words: Service. Pack. 1.
And I'm pretty sure Linux has more FREE downloads than Windows. I'm also pretty sure that the rare security vulnerability occasionally found in Linux will be patched the next day.
If anyone's interested in going to a local Best Buy on 9/19/09 with CDs and flyers and encouraging people to try gnu/linux on their laptops before they buy, visit http://trygnulinux.com/sfd09
If Microsoft thinks it's a worthy battleground, perhaps we should as well.
Linux in its current state on the desktop cannot compete with Win7. OS X can and does.
How exactly does OS X compete on the desktop once you consider even marginal gaming? Look at the department store value bins, the $10 section. People want their cheap maddens, their cheap puzzle games and for some reason their cheap Ghost Recon... Seems like DirectX is the de facto standard.
Outside of this one very specific issue I see both OSX and Linux as great alternatives to Windows. But unless Flash games are your end all be all none of these even try to compete. (and yes I am aware of what titles are available on these platforms, but it's far from an impressive list for either of them.) Once linux/mac software is available at Wal-Mart, then we might be talking.
On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
I recently updated a machine that had not been used in about a year. This machine is on a site license, using the standard MS products. In the update i was greeted wth the MS Office anti-piracy update, and warned that if I did not update I would not know if I had a pirated copy, and that if I did there might be security implications. Of course we had spent a great deal of money acquiring the software, and the update reminded that no matter what, MS could pull the plug at any time, and they would not consider this properly licensed software valid until I added this spyware to my machine.
The cool thing is that Google is taking this licensing deal to the next level with the cloud. The cloud, at least in it's free form, is not all that useful for people who want a little more control over their computers, but for those who are raised MS, it is the next logical step. For all those that have focused on the simplified MS development model, and MS controlled software and hardware, I wonder what they will do in if google has all the software on the backend, and users just have chrome laptops.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
I also talk about the facts "M$ Windows VS GNU/Linux" with my friends. The big difference here is that they are MY FRIENDS so I DO NOT LIE to them.
Trust me, a *easy* way for a successful GNU/Linux propaganda is to talk (and possibly demonstrate) how GNU/Linux rocks when you are virus-cleaning your neighbor's computer at the same time. I don't know about you but I get called for this in a regular basis.
Yep, but BestBuys salesdroids are not aimed at people building hackintoshes.
Pharmaceutical companies doing it led to a number of scandals and lost licenses in other countries.
Hell, sometimes it looks like Best Buy salesdroids are mostly trained to keep Best Buy's stock of macs unsold :p
I am sure Best Buy is getting paid well for this, but ultimately it does hurt their reputation. One reason people go to a store like Best Buy is for information. If they get a reputation for giving out bad information then a lot of the reason for going there disappears. Granted, the typical reader of Slashdot probably doesn't need a lot of advice, and we probably know how to get better prices elsewhere. However, we do talk to a lot of people who are thinking about buying computers. I am thinking at this point it is probably better to go to Wal-mart where people assume the clerks know nothing about the products than it is to go to BestBuy where management is encouraging employees to give out bad information. I know there will be a lot of flames about the clerks at Best Buy being stupid, and people who rely on them are even stupider. However, I do know some Best Buy employees, and some of them are pretty sharp.
WOW has rather modest hardware requirements. That makes it one of the few current games that might run well on a netbook. This said, I would not buy a netbook with the intention of playing games.
C - the footgun of programming languages
Oh, and don't try pushing that Apple "it just works" blather
What about "your half price inspiron will also last a third of the time". This has basically been what happened, macs are not made to compete with the discount bin Dell crap, but with thinkpads and xpses. And yes it hurts Apple in terms of their "pricey" perception, but at least they don't jack up the price at retail.
I liked this one:
Linux is safer than windows
The Real Facts:
Are they talking about Linux or Windows? I thought it was quite clever that they could be referring to either, while implying that linux is the inferior one.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
You mean like this?
I work in the financial market....
I called Microsoft a Zombie corporation (and warned several months ago that MSFT earnings would suck even though most traders were optimistic) and have a neutral rating on them. BTW I am not making this stuff up. I happened to have started in the tech industry (still write quant code to this day), but moved to quant/algo trader/junior trader.
The real problem with Microsoft is that its operating system division is dragging down the entire corporation. Windows 7 is not great. I upgraded a Vista machine (HP tablet) and have to say, not bad, but I only upgraded because Vista was so bad. Would I upgrade my XP machines? NOT A CHANCE!!!
I also use Linux and have to say I am very impressed. Perfect? Nope, but very usable. I actually now prefer the Ubuntu fonts to read. Quite nice.
Apple, and Linux are going to devour Microsoft. The cycle has truly started. And once Chrome gets rolling Microsoft is going to have its hands full.
Look at the reality:
1) IIS cannot and has not beat Apache (even after a complete decade). The fact that a product can beat Microsoft is not widely talked about by Microsoft. Notice how Microsoft stopped talking about its IIS?
2) IE is getting stomped! You cannot deny it, but IE is getting beat by Firefox, Chrome (my preferred) and somewhat Safari.
3) Microsoft has completely lost the mobile business and is getting pulverized by the likes of Apple, Palm, and RIMM. Even Nokia has smelt the direction of the wind with the new N900. They know what is happening and are positioning themselves.
4) Java is STILL around. It used to be Microsoft could come out with a development language or environment and the world would bow to Microsoft. Java is still kicking and arguably is doing very well standing its own ground.
Microsoft has some major issues and Windows 7 will show that things will not work...
When the stock market sniffs the lack of Windows 7 follow through MSFT is going down! Right now the market is divided hence its stock price just keeps rolling around treading water. But when that balance sheet keeps grinding down MSFT is done! I am thinking you will probably be able to pick MSFT shares around the low teens next year.
Normally it would be a bit higher, but the selling will be relentless as people will want to get out of their positions (incl the MSFT employees)
How do you solve this?
1) Fire Ballmer and top management
2) Make a base Windows OS open source (no frills). Not for Linux trumping purposes, but if the Windows OS horse dies the entire corporation goes down...
Windows has become a yolk for the entire Microsoft corporation... In the past it was a blessing, now its a curse...
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
It's great that BestBuy wants to make money and that one of the ways they can make money is to "partner" with companies, like Microsoft, that will pay them to lie. That's Capitalism for you.
It's also a prominent reason that I, and most of my friends, don't shop at BestBuy. We all know we'll be lied to from BestBuy. It'd be great to go up to a salesperson and feel confident that any questions will receive carefully considered, honest responses. But, what we get are push-products-sold-by-Company-X-because-they're-our-partner responses. So, unlike 1999 when I went to BestBuy once a week, now I go there maybe once every year. I just don't like their B.S.
Well, that and their policy to DEMAND I listen to their spiel about extended warranties, with no regard to whether or not I, the customer, want to hear that crap.
redhaired hippie girlfriend ...The sex is fantastic
Isn't this against the spirit of DOJ's settlement with MS? This shouldn't be allowed when on anti-trust probation.
Table-ized A.I.
Or maybe this.
Given that Best Buy employees still have to pay a Sawbuck to M$ for the win7. Ubuntu can be downloaded for free. Word Processing, Spread Sheets, and Presentation software can be downloaded for free from openOffice. for Bitmap, and Vectored Art there is GIMP, Inkscape, and Blender3D. For software development there is Eclipse. The current major development war going on is "Flash verses SVG"; it's not that Flash products can do more, it's that SVG can be done in Notepad++.
This is true.
Which is why I find it very strange that Microsoft feels it necessary to pepper this material with so many bold-faced lies. Printer and Camera support is great under Linux (really better than Windows in my experience), WoW runs great on Wine, updates are a breeze.
That said, you can't do your taxes, run Photoshop, Netflix, and sound support is flaky at best. Also Flash is even shittier than it is under Windows.
And sadly, Microsoft is being paid for these things that aren't even their doing.
... because it updates *everything* (the operating system and all installed applications that come from the distribution).
And the "cannot tell what updates are required and which are optional" comment in Linux is ridiculous. In the update manager on Ubuntu (checked on 9.04), it clearly shows updates with "Important security updates", "Recommended updates" and "Other updates" listed, with a description of the changes.
I don't have much of an issue with the list itself. Obviously it's heavily biased, but I see nothing on there that can be called an outright lie.
My problem is the purpose of BestBuy sending staff to a presentation like that. It's specifically intended to give staff arguments to persuade customers to buy Windows. When the real goal of the staff should be to identify each customer's needs and guide them based on that.
It's one thing to make mention of a more expensive product to see if there's a chance of an upsale, it's quite another to be as one-sided as this presentation is. Whether the staff will recite that presentation to any and all customers, or simply use it as input for any customer that asks for examples of why to pick one over the other, remains to be seen. But I have a feeling....
But you will have to when MS stops supporting XP. True, it may be a few years before they start cranking the thumbscrews. But, it will happen. All they have to do is stop patching vulnerabilities found in XP.
And MS is still king of gaming, as somebody pointed out, for good or bad.
MS was founded by expert poker players. They haven't used all their strong cards yet.
Table-ized A.I.
The days when you buy one computer for everything are over.
I have four PCs in my house that run Linux for ease of maintenance and security on the internet. One for each kid and one for me and my wife
I have one Mac that I bought for iLife -- for photos and to make home movies. It is nice but I'm not sure if I'll replace it when the time comes.
I have one XP box -- P4, 2Ghz, 1 GB RAM -- that the kids can play thier $5 bargain bin junk games on if they want to. Occasionally they use XP to play a web game that requires shockwave. But they usually get bored with those games pretty fast and would rather play on their Wii.
I can find more than enough web-based games that work in Linux to keep the kids busy for ever, and they like playing their games on their own computer, rather than having to share it with their brothers. I can afford to give each kid their own computer since the Linux computers are free. I couldn't do that (legally) with Windows.
Add in a couple smart phones and MP3 players. The days of one computer to do everything are over, and Linux can easily compete as one part of a multi-computer household
Ironic that you use the word "facts" then later refer to Microsoft as "M$".
Isn't Microsoft (MS) a multi-bilion-trilion-whatever company? If so, what's wrong of using M$ for that?
Bla bla bla. utter garbage talk.
No comments.
don't need the headaches and disappointments of Linux.
I don't comment opinions, we all have them.
- -
YAM$A - Yet Another M$ Astrosurfer.
Aren't we CONSTANTLY told by people on slashdot and in the general media that Linux is not a viable desktop operating system? If this is true, why does Microsoft need to train Best Buy employees to dissuade people from trying Linux?
The fact that this course is offered to BestBuy employees - and apparently only BestBuy employees - says something about consumer electronics retail in 2009 in the US. When I worked at CompUSA (pre - 2000) I frequently went to vendor-sponsored "classes" where they would give us food, beer, free hardware/software, etc, for listening to their pitch. We generally went there and found that there were also BestBuy, CircuitCity, and even OfficeMax or OfficeDepot employees, depending on what was being sold. Now of those five retailers (including CompUSA) only BestBuy remains a significant factor in consumer elecrtonics sales.
I'm surprised that Microsoft apparently didn't even think highly enough of Microcenter to invite them. I guess they are still rather small fish (in terms of market presence) at the moment.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
they don't believe in their own product.
Why do I say that? Because you don't see BMW giving free training videos to car salesmen comparing their cars to say GM or Chrysler or Ford, do you? BMW lives or dies by the quality and reputation of their products; they don't need to "educate" salesmen about their products. This smells of a desperation move where Microsoft must believe their Windows 7 doesn't compare favorably with Linux on netbooks, so they have to try to convince the Best Buy personnel, who let's face it, don't know as much about hardware and software as they know about marketing products, to push the Windows 7 stuff onto customers.
There have been some studies of performance of Windows 7 beta vs. Linux on netbooks which either have not have been clear win for Windows 7 or worse, have shown Windows 7 in an unflattering light. As for citations, the web sites that I can recall are Phoronix.com, and OSNews.com.
I mean trying to "educate" Best Buy sales people and having Windows 7 "House Parties" sounds a little pathetic don't you think? Did Microsoft do something similar when XP came out or even Vista?
"Aww, dangit! I got a BSOD again! Well, I knew it'd happen..."
"Our country is not nearly so overrun with the bigoted as it is overrun with the broadminded." -Archbishop Fulton Sheen
No, I will not upgrade my XP... At least right now the odds are against it.
Let me tell you about something we did...
We used to run Windows 2000 server. And then one day we needed to install it on new hardware. Did not work. So I got the idea and said, why not create a VMWare partition and install Windows 2000 on it and run exclusively Linux servers...
That was 3 years ago! And we still run Windows 2000 server. Recently they tried to install Windows 2008 Server as a virtualized server OS and it sucks completely... But the positive experience with the desktop making us to think about shifting to Linux on the desktop.
Right now the traders have 2 Windows machines and 1 Linux desktop machine. Thus far no problems...
But what we do know right now is that whatever desktops they need, if it involves a native Windows installation it will be the cheapest version with the work horse being Linux.
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
>MS was founded by expert poker players. They haven't used all their strong cards yet.
They have already misplayed their cards... It used to be version 3 of anything MS would succeed... Does not work anymore, and people are loathe to say it.
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
I'll tell Linux how to beat M$: make a app store. I know, stupidly obvious, but there isn't one built into ubuntu.
I'm running Ubuntu 8.04 on my laptop, and System > Administration > Synaptic Package Manager looks a lot like an app store.
I have to say I'm a heavy Windows user and like Windows 7 a lot, but these kinds of campaigns really disgust me. And I was thinking about buying W7...
When is Windows not like Windows?
When Microsoft ships a new version.
When is Windows just like Windows?
When Microsoft ships a new version.
You all know that Windows 7 is not like any kind of Windows most people are running but as you should have seen if you RTFA, Microsoft's army of marketing droids still likes to tell people that it's Windows so you know it.
Besides this telling the world+dog that Microsoft is fighting Linux, look at the first mention of netbooks and Linux. The page title is about netbooks but the bullets are on PCs. They are being real careful to not allow the netbook to be labeled a special device or market segment and want it to be considered a limited function PC. The reason why is because if people think of the netbook as another device like say, an iPhone, they know that all the smoke and mirror tricks claiming having Windows is better goes out the windows. Peg the netbook as a little computer and people will think that having Windows on it is a good thing to do and if you put anything else on it, you'll have less functionality. The reality is, these resource constrained devices do more with Linux because Linux and OSS does better and can do more in these small devices. Think about it, you don't see Window XP, Vista, or Windows 7 on smartphones or MIDs devices.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
No, BlackBerry users are the ones who wish for a RIM job.
Just for you: here's an app store for Blender, a 3d modeling program. If you click that on most Debian boxes these days, it'll download Blender from the repository and install it for you appropriately in the menu. I'll leave the rest of the thousands of apps as an exercise for the reader.
Afterwards please remember to email me $0.99.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
In colloquial English usage, "slander" appears to have a broader meaning, roughly equivalent to Legalese "slander or libel". Read AC's post like this: "Defaming Microsoft is a major tool in the Linux advocate's handbag."
I've seen them ship free product to people who didn't order it to inflate their "install base" of a particular item.
Does this have anything to do with the allegation that trialware subsidizes the Windows royalty, which began soon after Sony experimented with charging extra not to include trialware? People who buy a new PC get a copy that they didn't pay for; trialware publishers paid for it instead.
This is a "features and benefits" document, presented electronically. This is a common sales practice
But is it also common practice to lie in a features and benefits document?
Click here to install the Linux Software Store with apt:url (if supported).
Help stamp out iliturcy.
No, but it is part of why getting help at the local BestBuy is such an incredible experience.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
I seem to remember Linux supporting more hardware then any other OS...
Yeah, just not as much current hardware that you can still buy in big-box chains like Target and Best Buy.
i am going to go in to bestbuy every week and wear down the employees with every talking point i can muster showing Linux is better, they will be running to mcdonalds asking for employment applications after i get done with them.
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
Nintendo, MS and Sony are the kings of gaming. But MS isn't there because of Windows, it's because of Xbox. The market for PC gaming is shriveling.
Ubuntu can be downloaded for free.
Not if you have a 5 GB monthly cap or (worse) dial-up. Then you have to pay CheapBytes the same sawbuck if you want it to get to your PC any time soon (i.e. faster than ShipIt).
Word Processing, Spread Sheets, and Presentation software can be downloaded for free from openOffice. for Bitmap, and Vectored Art there is GIMP, Inkscape, and Blender3D. For software development there is Eclipse.
Then what for games? Must Linux users stick to included games and online SWF games?
> The real problem with Microsoft is that its operating system division is dragging down the entire corporation.
You are in the right ballpark but haven't found the actual danger to MSFT. Ponder this:
All of the net profit at Microsoft comes from two products, Windows and Office. The profits from those two products are currently so obscene that Microsoft's problem is to hide that fact from everyone lest the anti-trust fever get started up again, especially with a Marxist leaning administration[1] in power. So they do Zunes, Xboxes, massive R&D divisions, whatever it takes to sink most of that cash flow out of sight because if they passed all of it out as dividends it would attract far too much attention.
Except the world is changing. As average selling price on PCs fall the OEM cost of Windows has to drop eventually. The actual amount any OEM pays is of course a closely guarded secret but we know how much revenue Microsoft reports from Windows and we know roughly how many PCs are sold so do the math. To get those huge profits means they are getting a nice chunk of each box sold and the percentage has been growing as selling price drops and OEM cost of Windows has crept upward. That can't continue, in fact the word is Win7 is less expensive than Vista. The number of new PCs isn't likely to increase much and neither is the percentage of machines sold with Windows as it is hard to go higher than the current effective 100%. Put it together and revenue from Windows only goes down from here.
So what about Office? Similar problem. To date they maintained the monopoly by lock in. If you are like most people you bought the newest Office not when you wanted the new features but when someone you do business with sent you a document you couldn't open. ODF is a direct threat to that model. Forget OpenOffice.org, they are a threat but not the biggest one. Then you get the same downward price pressure as overall prices fall. It was a lot easier to sell a full retail box of Office when the PC it was being installed on was upwards of $2000. Good luck getting many people to pay $399 for Office to install on a $299 netbook. And an office worker's desktop PC is already getting down into that range. Getting corporations to stay on the Office treadmill will soon require price cutting.
So if both of the products that bring in the cash are about to see revenue slashed, even if they maintain their current market share, it means one of two things must soon happen.
1. Money losing divisions become profitable. Xbox make a profit? How? Bing and the whole Internet Division makes money? Really?
2. Money losing divisions get closed down. Investors are sad.
So unless somebody has a different view of the numbers it looks like Microsoft jumped the shark with Vista[2] and it is all downhill from here. Note that in my look at the situation Linux, Open Source, etc. have almost zero role in what I project happening, just the consequences of Moore's Law and finally getting documents into the same standards track that things like images and html did long ago. If Linux does manage to erode Microsoft market share and/or provide additional pricing pressure, both of which are likely, the revenue problems are even more grim.
[1] This post isn't intended to be about politics, but when more than half the people in and around the White House either ARE Marxists or have close associations with Marxists, assuming the outbreak of attacks against a rapacious convicted monopolist at the slightest excuse pretty much has to be something a prudent investing world would take into any risk assessment. Bush's letting em go with a stern talking to ain't likely to be repeated.
[2] Don't take that as an O.B. slam at Vista, just saying that it was unlucky enough to be version in release as they hit peak revenue.
Democrat delenda est
Microsoft stock is off 42% over the past decade. This does not look like the type of thing that's a good retirement investment. Of course, past experience does not always guarantee future results. Your mileage may vary. Consult your own investment advisor. For comparison, Apple is up 1000% over the same period.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
a worthless "restore" CD
The last computer I purchased didn't have a restore CD, it had a restore partition on the hard drive. However, there was a fairly straightforward method that I followed that allowed me to use the restore partition to make a windows install CD that made a fresh install of my OS.
reinstalling, which you *will* have to do now and then
That is at least as much the fault of the user as it is the fault of the OS. Intelligently setup windows boxes don't need OS reinstalls with any more frequency than their *nix counterparts; however many windows boxes are compromised by poorly informed users.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
"So a blonde and a redneck walk into Best Buy and ask to buy a netbook..."
I don't know about you but no store within a 100 miles cares MS Office 2008 for Mac OSX.
Pity the bandwidth of the site was exceeded - could not see the piccys.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Don't forget that MS' recognition that they need this specific advertising to stop users from picking a GNU/Linux distro over windows7 is proof that the competition is no longer a travel to the candy store for MS. We are all users, and the competition can only do good for us. It is nice to have a competition, isn't it?
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
just my loose change
ideopath @ play
Got Slashdotted. :D All the pictures on the page show "bandwidth exceeded" now. ;)
After years of not using a signature, I am going to make one to say the following: Fuck Beta
Yeah, that's right. Because this means that MS is that something the whole FOSS community has done these last years has worked and MS now actually feels threatened by it and the need to train salesman into fighting it. It is also good news because after all, there is no such thing as bad advertisement, and this is just going to spell out "Streissand effect".
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
1) Fire Ballmer and top management
This is what I agree with. For what everybody says about Bill Gates, he knew how to run a business. And, although he had quirks (what smart people don't?), he made good decisions and knew technology.
While I don't know Ballmer personally, the jokes that surround him (throwing chairs, "Developers!", etc) indicate to me that he is easily angered and excitable. This is *not* a trait I would want in someone leading a company. In addition, I am not a huge fan of a lot of management. I would rather go with Jack Welch's method - just enough management.
I'm not anti-Microsoft - I'm relatively neutral and judge products as I use them (and, yes, I am very excited for ChromeOS), but I think MS has become too top-heavy and change needs to happen.
Except for the fact that there are more PC titles sold today than in the "golden age" of the late 90's, early 00's...
Oh pleaes. You lose any sane person with the Marxist bullshit. If you think the Obama administration are Marxist, then you don't know WTF a Marxist is...
Seems like this could easily backfire: The average computer doesn't know what Linux is, let alone anything about it. By teaching Best Buy employees about Linux, even in this derisive and misleading way, Microsoft is spreading the word about a competing operating system. It's entirely possible that by raising awareness of Linux's existence, they are paving the road for customers to inquire about what Linux is from the internet or their local "tech guy" (usually the youngest person in the household), rather than from some brainwashed teenager working at Best Buy. Meanwhile, real businesses with informed IT departments will continue to use Linux on their servers in overwhelming numbers. Perhaps the year of the Linux desktop is close at hand!
Conscience is the inner voice which warns us that someone may be looking.
Because marginal gaming has already moved off the PC.
These days marginal gaming takes place on:
- Handheld (cell phone, iPodTouch/iPhone, PSP, DS)
- Dedicated systems (360, Wii, PS3)
- Web browsers (Facebook, MySpace, Flash)
There is quite a lot of gaming available out there, even if you never buy another MS OS ever again.
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
Sure, most of the claims they make on Linux are really attacks, and some of the claims they make for Windows are exaggerations, but when it comes to easy of use, and support, I agree.
I have 5 computers at my home, all of them run some version of Windows. They all worked out of the box, my Anti-Virus and other security software does it's job quite well. And when there is a problem, I know how to fix it, I know where to look, it's familiar.
Every attempt I've made to job on the Linux band-wagon fails. When it comes to IT I'm not THE expert, I'm also not a novice. But I can't get Linux to work for me, I can't get it to do what I want. Once my computer is setup with some flavor of Linux, I can browse the internet, and edit text documents. My videos don't work, my voice chat doesn't work, my games don't work. And when I try to get help, I don't even know where to look, I don't have any numbers to call, and when I find some forum and post my problem, I might get a response, and that response might have language I understand, and it MIGHT solve my problem. With my Windows machines, I have numbers, I know where to look, and if I need support I always get an answer, and I always understand what the help says, and I always get my problem solved.
Now I will admit, it has been a while since I tried Linux. Windows does cost a VERY pretty penny, and I have a laptop that is in some serious need for change. So slashdot, this isn't a challenge, this is a real outreach. Me already having a bad experience with the switch to Linux, and being spoiled with Windows what Flavor would be best for me?
My Laptop is currently running XP. AMD Athlon 64bit processor, (~2Ghz, I can't really get to it right now to check), Half a Gig of ram.
I would like it to run my SNES emulator, browse the internet, some sort of office suite, Video chat (For my mother). And I'd like to be able to run Starcraft 1 (So maybe I need wine?) Also, if it's possible, I have an ehome infrared reciever, and a haupauge tuner. If I could have those working to replace MCE I would be sold.
So what Linux would be best for me?
Indoctrinate : to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments Educate : to develop mentally, morally, or aestheti
This is entirely impossible, because Windows "just works." It's easy to install software (10 out of 10 virus writer's agree), and it's secure (as long as the network cable is unplugged, and you don't power the box on).
Let me ask this? If it is the user's fault and not the OS, why doesn't anybody have to reinstall Linux due to "OS rot" ? Perhaps you didn't think Linux has users too? And no, not all Linux users are technically inclined. I have many contacts who use Linux and need it to just work because they don't know what to do if it doesn't. I think I got one call last year from one person. Everybody else is sailing along just fine, and they are the same caliber of user as the Windows users you are blaming.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
"Aww, dangit! I got a BSOD again! Well, I knew it'd happen..."
They should be training Bestbuy employees on how to properly manage demo machines. I came across this BSOD'd laptop at Bestbuy earlier this week and even after three employees walked by it, nothing was done.
I think you are bang on the money - with the exception of the Obama Marxist thing. As far as I can tell, it is in the interest of the US government to keep MS a US owned monopoly for two reasons.
1) It brings in income (and taxes) for the US, income that could be heading elsewhere.
2) It can insert backdoors in the product if it wants to. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSAKEY
3) It prevents another country from building a popular competitor with their own backdoor. If someone has to succeed, open source (global by its very nature; can insert your own staff; can fork; can point out problems with source) would be preferable.
If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
2) Make a base Windows OS open source (no frills). Not for Linux trumping purposes, but if the Windows OS horse dies the entire corporation goes down...
I have a feeling they'd make it cheaper and subscription based before they'd do that. Subscription based is something investors might even go for - but open source? Far too much licensed code in there for that to happen.
Add Silverlight VS Flash to the mix ;)
Actually you've proven nothing here. Your whole argument is just to brand people he knows as communists (like his grandparents..) with nothing else to back it up.
You're like Joe McCarthy without any power...
Guilt by association doesn't cut it. Especially when you have nothing to prove the BS you're spewing. If Obama were a Marxist you'd be able to point to direct examples of why that is the case. You can't, because you're just a right-winger with an axe to grind.
Uh... Unless the Netbook has an NVidia Ion type configuration, it's not likely to be able to play. The GMA950 won't cut it, and the GMA500 would barely cut it with the current state of affairs on the drivers, either Windows or Linux.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I suppose I can't really complain as it's not his intention (I assume) that his thread will get slashdotted but why do people still use bandwidth limiting sites to host their image. Not everyone can view your post 5 seconds after you submit it.
Intelligently setup windows boxes don't need OS reinstalls with any more frequency than their *nix counterparts
That's not really true, the registry gets filled up with cruft that you cannot delete, and the WinSxS directory gets filled up to bursting with crap everytime you install something. In both case sthe OS cannot remove things, the registry for example is filled with things that might be used by a different user - so when you delete something, the OS has to leave it behind in case someone else still has is installed. At least, that's the reason given by Microsoft why the installer doesn't do it.
I'm sure there are more similar reasons, like .NET cruft that gets installed and kept 'just in case its needed later', COM objects, user application setting folders (in the hidden folders, have you seen that they get left behind, casual users don't because they're hidden from view to prevent tampering).
The Windows 7 drinking game:
(Source link)
http://rocknerd.co.uk
There are women on the internet. They go to Oprah.com to talk about having their periods and shopping on the computer that a man bought for them.
Would I upgrade my XP machines? NOT A CHANCE!!!
Of course not, I have upgraded exactly one machine that I owned from one MS OS to another (Windows ME to Windows XP). Most people only upgrade their MS OS when they buy a new computer. The only question is what the reaction of the general public is to buying new machines with Windows 7 on them.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Ah, but windows (XP pre-installs) come out of the box moronically set up (default user is administrator being the biggest problem, much software assuming and requiring administrator access being the second).
Modern Linux desktop distros and MacOS come out of the (iso|box) intelligently set up.
Is this the fault of the user?
Seriously if MS has to teach BestBuy employees sales pitches to keep people from LINUX you know LINUX has made an impact on the average joe. All this will do isput the name LINUX into more peoples minds. It'll make people ask questions like.. Whats up with LINUX if BestBuy is trying to show me how much better W7 is VS LINUX? If they are trying to tell me W7 is the best compared to LINUX then LINUX must be up there? Maybe its good enough for me to try it out?
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
Eric Raymond has an interesting article (2006) where he argues that big changes on the software market can only occur when there is an industry-wide switch in the hardware. According to Eric Raymond the window of opportunity created by the transition to 64bit platforms closes (has closed) in 2008. However I still see Windows Vista PCs on sale with 3GByte of memory because 64bit Windows lacks driver support and 32bit Windows can only address 4GByte of memory (minus 1GByte to address the graphics card AFAIK).
This is a good sign. The fact that Microsoft feels it necessary to attack Linux at the retail level shows that Linux is becoming more and more of a factor in the computing mainstream as well. Thanks, Microsoft, for supporting Linux.
I've been using Linux on servers for years but always used M$ on the desktop. When my MB blew and XP wouldn't run on the new one, I started using Ubuntu Desktop. Everything worked... generally with less drama than Windows. My DVD writer with Lightscribe worked, my laser printer worked of course. My Brother 5890 MFP scans and prints even though I can only get it to print from XP (It won't scan to XP... who knows why?).
I've been using Openoffice every since Word 2000 inexplicably stopped working on my XP machine even with a full reinstall. The only thing that was missing was Visio. Fortunately, my old version of Visio (which won't work on Vista) will work just fund under Wine on Linux... also without any messing around.
I used to be an advocate of Linux for people who didn't mind fiddling. Now I would suggest it for people who don't want to have to fiddle, so long as they don't need to get help from their local Windows-Geek.
Ah, but windows (XP pre-installs) come out of the box moronically set up (default user is administrator being the biggest problem, much software assuming and requiring administrator access being the second).
The current Windows version has been Vista for TWO AND A HALF YEARS at this point. The only way to even buy XP at all at this point is to get a Netbook, and that won't be the case in another 3 months anyway.
How long does Vista have to be current before Slashdot acknowledges it? Christ. If you're going to spout the propaganda, update it for 2007, please. If you're going to compare OSes, compare the *current* version of Windows with the *current* version of OS X and Linux.
Comment of the year
The latter half of your post was good, but the standard Linux cultist routine, where the word shill is repeated close to a dozen times, while spit flies out of the mouth of the zealot who is speaking, really needs to go.
It just makes whoever engages in said routine look like a basement-dwelling, autistic fringe whackjob; it doesn't accomplish anything else.
It would be great if you started with something more than just office. Especially since his point was about games.
Of course 90% of the people do not care too much about most of the questions shown at
http://windows7sins.org/
A lot of what's on that site is the sort of blatant hypocrisy that we've come to expect from the FSF, anywayz.
Poisoning education? I've got two words in response to that; #gnu-generation. Stallman isn't going to have any credibility accusing anyone else of engaging in mind control, until he stops doing it himself. I'm guessing that the response I get to this very post will likely prove my point on that score, as well.
They don't have to. Just ask Nvidia about that one.
With MS Windows everyone copes with "you need service pack 4 to run this software" or other indications of a moving target. That's the way a lot of consumer and small business software is. At the big end of town vendors just specify RHEL4 or whatever. In nearly every case the "stable ABI" is there anyway since the applications don't care about the kernel, they just care whether certain libraries are there and they certainly behave in a much stable way than the DLL hell you get in systems without library versioning. So the linux distribution uses version 5 of the library and the application uses the totally incompatible version 2 - no problem, a half decent distro will give you the old version as well in some legacy package and a half decent application installer would include the old library as well. If neither is half decent it takes a few minutes on the net to track down the old library. There is no DLL hell, you have both libraries on the system and the application uses the one it was intended for.
So the answer, oddly enough, is that for applications you have a far more stable environment than on MS Windows and many hardware manufacturers have been dealing with the kernel side for a decade. The reality is not what you imply but simply resources. It takes effort to port things to different platforms no matter what they are. On the kernel side there are a lot of people that will happily put in time to support new bits of hardware, but for various reasons (such as fear of competition or legal action) some hardware vendors will not release the information required to do this. It's not about a "stable ABI" at all.
It would be a shame if Best Buy had to forgo all of those back-end co-marketing dollars. But it wouldn't be fair to keep giving them marketing incentives if they're giving preferred placement to the competition now, would it? The other vendors are more than happy to help with consumer education and it just wouldn't be right to let their commitment to the partnership go unrewarded.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
When the stock market sniffs the lack of Windows 7 follow through MSFT is going down! Right now the market is divided hence its stock price just keeps rolling around treading water. But when that balance sheet keeps grinding down MSFT is done! I am thinking you will probably be able to pick MSFT shares around the low teens next year.
500 WoW gold says that Microsoft isn't still here by 2015. 2020, tops.
I've seen this coming for more than a decade, now. They never had any plan after NT 4.
This is why any Linux users (and I mean any) who have ever considered Microsoft a viable threat, are paranoid morons who need to stop drinking Stallman's Kool Aid.
Microsoft are a threat to themselves, and nobody else.
.. actually know what they are doing or selling. A 1 hour training video for a high school dropout with little to no real life experience is hardly a source for realistic and applicable technical knowledge.
You save on dollars at the register and pay later when its not what you really wanted.
I worked at burger king for 13 months when I was a kid... I didn't learn how to make burgers or fries, I learned what buttons to press to make the burger come out right (given its all BK gear and supplies). Its all the same... I worked for Sears too... same videos, same shallow knowledge to give the customers the facade of customer service.... And old navy... and the gap...
Buy local and you might find someone of experience in the field that has a level of person-to-person reverence; someone that is financially and personally culpable.
So what about Office? Similar problem. To date they maintained the monopoly by lock in. If you are like most people you bought the newest Office not when you wanted the new features but when someone you do business with sent you a document you couldn't open.
That isn't Microsoft's biggest problem.
Microsoft's biggest problem (and I'm going back nearly 20 years here, now) is that they have never, never had a long term road map (or any type of road map, for that matter) after NT4. Zero, zilch, nothing.
Gates acquired DOS, and bought some professors to do a hack job on VMS for NT. He wasn't a real coder, though; he never was. Bill's real skill was as a marketer and showman. He was charismatic, he had an iron will, and he knew how to at least make it look as though the customers were getting what they wanted from him.
But fundamentally, Microsoft have always been a suit company, not a programmer company. It isn't about the scalability of FOSS mindshare, either. Apple can still hire people smart enough to churn out the products they need to stay in business.
The real reason, also, why no gameplan after NT4, is going to end up being fatal to them, is because as Bill has said himself, where software is concerned, you're only as relevant as your next release.
Microsoft have no next release, now. They've hit a brick wall. XP is a patch of a patch of a patch, and it's their last truly decent product. Vista wasn't so much a bomb as it was simply the same product with an attempt at a skin job, and some minor superficial crap which only succeeded at slowing the internal engine down.
Windows 7 will fail, too, and for the same reason. It is not a new product. It will be XP with some new skins, and a reshuffle of the deck chairs, and that will be it. Microsoft can't do anything else, because they don't HAVE anything else.
Linux is able to reinvent itself as necessary. Apple nearly died themselves, but Steve Jobs finally proved that he has a real brain in his head (and believe me, I'd been seriously doubting that for a long time) and made the kind of obvious decision that people with a lot of money usually don't have sufficient vision to be able to make; he abandoned his old architecture entirely, and jumped ship to UNIX.
UNIX is the future. That has been predictable for a long time now; since at least the early 90s, and probably before.
Microsoft could do an Apple, cut their losses and essentially become just another UNIX vendor, but they won't, because there are still too many old guard in the company who are two ideologically bound to Windows.
That isn't the only thing which will sink the company, either. It still has a lot of problems with public ill-will. Stallman's cultists still haven't got the memo that the only people who Microsoft are a threat to at this point are themselves, and the cult can be an extremely vocal and influential demographic.
It may not be for the reasons that most people think or realise, but whichever way you slice it, at this point, Microsoft are screwed.
Bill retired last year, and you'll notice that he did it fairly quietly. He would have been able to see the writing on the wall at least as clearly as I've been able to, and I'm guessing he knows exactly what is coming. He probably didn't make too big a deal about it; he wouldn't have wanted to start a panic.
When Bill retired last year, though, he was doing exactly the same thing that J Bruce Ismay was doing, when he got into a lifeboat by jumping the rail of the Titanic.
A lot of devices would work (and do work well) if the OEM would just go ahead and not be "cute" with the hardware
also changing the chipset used on a device and not changing the model number is worse than cute.
example anything that presents as a "Mass Storage Device" will work with Linux (with Automount even)
but Wifi cards tend to be a nightmare because
1 Firmware bounces all over the map
2 OEMs changing the chipsets without changing the model number (oh its a Version 4.5.6.nx3?? yeah they changed the chips)
what would help is if OEMs would put a rom chip on the device with a correct firmware
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
I took this course to get my Win7 Ultimate for $10, I did not take it to learn anything. Seriously, those of us in retail take courses like these all the times where different vendors feed us their propaganda and we answer correctly based on what they want us to answer to get free stuff. None of us really care.
Why don't you post news stories on Slashdot for every manufacturer that says something negative about another in these courses? Oh you know what, because you'd be posting something every day. But oh no, God forbid Linux gets mentioned by Microsoft in one the thousands of courses we can take to get free crap and its time to take screen shots and call the evening news.
OK... Windows (Vista Pre-Installs) come out of the box moronically set up. The default user is administrator but a window pops up asking for authorization for every action, whether it is a system-wide change or not, and if you turn it off no authorization is required even for system-wide changes. Furthermore, much vertical, printer/multifunction driver, and gaming software requires and assumes administrative access.
First, I want to know what moron goes to Best Buy and asks the associate what they should buy? Oh, wait, that's right. Everyone not on /. does that. Too bad there's not enough intelligence in the US to do some due diligence and figure out what you really need. Lets go ask that 18 year old how I should spend my 5 grand.
I guess I forgot to add the point that I never expect a corporation to have honesty as policy at all and that I generally expect most of corps actions to have little to no regard for anything other than profit.
Very good point.
http://ixnotes.wordpress.com/2009/09/06/microsoft-propaganda-handed-out-to-staples-employees/ I thought while we're talking about it I'd post these images of Microsoft's propaganda they've been distributing to Staples employees. Numerous lies like greater compatibility than GNU/Linux-when most of the older hardware won't work with MS Windows Vista. GNU/Linux is compatible with more hardware than any operating system in history. It may not work with some of the latest and greatest-but for the most part it works better. I don't spend 3 hours fiddling with installing my printer drivers. I plug it in- and it just appears as an option in whatever program I need to print with. The learning curve for GNU/Linux is generally not as high as it is for MS Windows Vista. Unlike what they claim MS Vista and MS Office 2007 software which customers would buy if they got Vista is more cumbersome, has a reduced feature set, is slow, lacks important features like PDF support, and so on. GNU/Linux has better support generally than MS Windows. GNU/Linux supports stuff out of the box whereas with MS Windows users hand to install lots of bloated software, drivers, and waste time figuring out how to use it. GNU/Linux on the other hand can generally be had without such support headaches. Once you're introduced to shut down, applications menu, saving in different formats, and exporting to PDF it is just simpler. Getting devices to work in MS Windows can require modification/and or troubleshooting. Hardware rarely works out of the box. Microsoft want's you to believe that GNU/Linux netbooks have a higher return rate. The fact is that some manufacturers screwed up their GNU/Linux introductions to customers and their particular return rates were higher. Overall GNU/Linux is on par with MS Windows.
It's not that they don't care. It's that to the n00b, it looks so esoteric and unwelcoming. All this talk of command-lines, kernels, and compiling applications from source really doesn't incline one to try it.
Really, YouTube gives a more accurate image of Linux than any stereotype does.
Let q be a radix > 1. I am in ur base-q, killing 10 d00ds.
At this time, most of the people who walk into BB and ask for Linux probably know what they want. And they probably know a hell of a lot more about the subject than the average BB employee with his Microsoft talking points in hand. So all this will achieve is to generate ill will aimed at the sales people, and ultimately Best Buy. If BB corporate is letting Microsoft step in and screw around with their sales force, they deserve all the bad karma they're bound to get.
Have gnu, will travel.
> Microsoft's biggest problem is that they have never, never had a long term road map...
Nope, you are thinking like a geek. Microsoft is a business, follow the money like I did. It doesn't really matter if they have a roadmap, neither does it matter if their products suck or not. Think about it. If Microsoft's stuff were insanely great would they sell any more of it? The Apple cultists are Steve's, nothing is likely to make more than a percentage or two difference there. Linux may or may not have broken the 1% barrier in the last year. Big Whoopie. So had Microsoft shot the moon and made Windows 7 everything you think it should be their market share might grow from 90% to 95%[1] over the next five years for annual unit sales growth that is lost in the rise and fall of total unit sales as the economy shrinks and grows. Meanwhile if I'm right gross revenue will be dropping hard as revenue per unit drops much faster than any kilely increase in units could make up for.
So if they were to take your advice and find a way to produce your recommended change they are still boned. If they instead found a solution to the problem I pose as their likely downfall they would survive. Darned if I can think of one, but they still have billions to throw at the problem for now.
> Apple nearly died themselves, but Steve Jobs finally proved that he has a real brain in his head
> and made the kind of obvious decision that people with a lot of money usually don't have sufficient
> vision to be able to make; he abandoned his old architecture entirely, and jumped ship to UNIX.
Nope. You must be too young to remember. Steve was tossed from Apple as the wild west days of that tech growth spurt ended and the professional CEOs in suits moved in. So unable to take any of the Apple tech with him he pulled a Bender and "built new better tech, with blackjack and hookers". He founded Next, Pixar, etc. and did all manner of hoopy things until Apple was desperate enough to recall their Beloved Leader from the wilderness. Apple needed a new operating system, OS 9 was a dead end and everyone knew it. Well whadda ya know, Steve just happened to have NextStep all written, debugged and ready to get Apple branding and a new shiny theme. NextStep was 1980's tech (all who saw the NeXT Cube on the cover of Byte coveted the damned thing, but seriously, who had $20K to buy one? And people thought Macs were overpriced!) but yes it was a UNIX branded system, marrying UNIX goodness to Display Postscript. So Steve made himself part of a package deal with Next Computing, a little updating in the branding and it became Display PDF, core Apple tech like Quicktime was quickly bolted on, the BSD core was essentially unchanged and OS X was born.
> UNIX is the future.
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. All I know is fifteen years ago any pundit worth printing in the finest ZD rags just knew Windows was the future. Predicting the future more than year or two out is a sucker's game. I know I'm rather attached to the UNIX way... Wish Linux was. (I'm looking at you GNOME/KDE and all the *Kit foolishness.)
But whether Linux/GNU/X are still the way things are done in twenty years no longer matter as much to me, so long as the software that eventually supercedes it is Open Source/Free Software.
[1] Assuming they could gain back the non cultist Mac users who only recently switched to be trendy and perhaps blunt or reverse loses to the penguin.
Democrat delenda est
I can say as a Best Buy employee, that yes, we were able to take these courses to get the Windows 7 early and cheap. However, saying that all Best Buy employees believe all of our trainings or saying we all say these kinds of lies is ridiculous. I work in the computer department, and took all these trainings like everyone else in my department. No one would say these kinds of "facts" to customers in my store, we actually know what we are talking about and don't lie to the customer about facts on a PC or a Mac. I know there are some stores that do this, some in my own district. But, just for the record, I'm trying to be an honest Best Buy employee. Also, due to the fact that we are not commissioned, it's not that the people are trying to trick customers. It's either that they don't care or they are stupid, and unfortunately, I have run into a lot of dumb Best Buy employees. Thankfully, the ones that came into my department were removed quickly.
Linux vs Windows is a fun debate that many nerds are interested in, due to Linux's special status, and many nerds have a passion for it, Slashdot is news for nerds, hence the article.
I'm sure most of the others are low-key debates like the merits of consumers buying Halo over Blizzard Starcraft, Epson over HP printers, Fujitsu VS TDK CD-Rs, or Mitsumi VS Samsung DVD-ROM drives, or VI vs Emacs are of little interest to most.
Those would be of interest to some, but probably not most slashdot readers.
But i'm sure if Intel put out some seriously negative propaganda about AMD CPUs, or nVidia put out some seriously nasty propaganda about ATI video cards, or HP put out some negative propaganda about Dells or Apples, massive numbers of slashdot readers would be concerned....
Much like they'd be if MS was involved. The bigger / more monopolistic the company, the more scandalous it is to put out negative propaganda about attempted competitors.
Because it's seen as a clearer abuse of monopoly power to quash attempts by weaker companies (or the community, in the case with Linux) to compete.
How exactly does OS X compete on the desktop once you consider even marginal gaming?
Who cares about gaming? I use my Mac for work. I thought that the historical argument against Macs was that they weren't ready for serious business computing, but now it seems like the strongst argument anyone has is that the games are better on Windows.
Anyone who chooses their computing platform purely or even primarily based on gaming has childish priorities.
The CB App. What's your 20?
Your point seems to be that you can't be sure particular hardware will work with Linux. I haven't used Windows for several years so I can't comment on hardware issues with XP/Vista/W7, but I do know that on the 5 laptop/desktop computers in my household, every one "just works" with Ubuntu. Not a single hardware issue - not with a just-released printer/scanner from a supplier not known for their Linux support; not with the no-name PCMCIA wifi card one older laptop uses; or any of the built-in wifi adaptors.
I don't have access to unbiased datasets on this issue (I suspect that no-one does), but from my personal experience, this is a non-issue.
Do as you would be done to.
http://quaoar.ww7.be/ms_fud_of_the_year/569458-microsoft-attack-linux-retail-level-probably.html Photobucket quota exceeded here is another place to see the screenshots
People say my sig is the best thing about me.
Yes, after seeing the snapshots were no more showing, I have setup a mirror with snapshots included and unlimited bandwith : http://quaoar.ww7.be/ms_fud_of_the_year/569458-microsoft-attack-linux-retail-level-probably.html feel free to share the link, the server should support the slashdot effect . . . and i m monitoring server load ;)
One word for you: Office
The vast majority of people who work with computers use it purely for this one Microsoft application, and are the kind of users who work by rote and thus can't handle big changes in their UI. Whilst they are putting out deliberately inferior Mac version, and Linux can't replicate the functionality or the interface well, they've got immense leverage to get people onto their OS.
The fact that they are also into schools means that they've got a captive audience for their office software, and thus their OS isn't going anywhere any time soon.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
Every time I read about what Microsoft really does...It angers me. (As I'm sure it does for some of you).
...But then, I step back and I recall the wise words of another:
"The most important thing the hacker community does is write better code. Our deeds are the best propaganda we have. Most of us, most of the time, shouldn't be distracted by worrying about beating Microsoft's PR or countering their political moves, because writing good code is in the long run a far more potent weapon than flackery."
-Eric S. Raymond
OK, here you go.
Fighting for the bottom feeders here aren't we? Linux in its current state on the desktop cannot compete with Win7.
Sure it can. If it couldn't I know I wouldn't be using it. :)
I am not devoid of humor.
Flash games, console emulators, MS-DOS games, Windows games to an extent with Wine...
As an (admittedly retro) gamer Linux does offer plenty of ways to play. Even if I have to miss out on some other games because they don't work well in Wine.
I am not devoid of humor.
Nope, you are thinking like a geek. Microsoft is a business, follow the money like I did. It doesn't really matter if they have a roadmap, neither does it matter if their products suck or not.
It matters if it goes on long enough.
Even the idiot Windows refugees who are responsible for fouling Linux up, know what I'm talking about here; the whole reason why they're moving to Linux is because they can smell blood in the water. If Joe Sixpack knows something is sufficiently wrong to move to Linux, Microsoft are in truly deep shit; there's no coming back from that.
Meanwhile if I'm right gross revenue will be dropping hard as revenue per unit drops much faster than any kilely increase in units could make up for.
There has been a paradigm shift, yes; I won't argue with you at all about that. However, paradigm shifts by themselves don't have to kill a company. Microsoft survived the introduction of the Internet, even if Windows 95 was their peak. (And it was; you can't deny that. The sort of hoopla surrounding 95's release here in Australia, at least, has never been seen again, before or since. I can only assume that such was even MORE intense in the US)
My point is, you're only going to survive a paradigm shift, if you've actually got something to do it with. Your argument has basically proven my point with Apple; 9 was a dead end, but Steve pulled a rabbit out of his hat at the last minute and produced OSX. Microsoft can't do that; that was my point.
Nope. You must be too young to remember.
I'm old enough. I just never gave a crap. ;)
Apple have always seriously annoyed me. My uncle had a machine with OS9, and not only did I hate using it, compared with first Commodore machines and then my 486, but additionally they were twice as expensive as everything else.
OSX might be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but a pirated, jerry rigged ISO for commodity hardware is the only way I'll ever see it. I can go into Melbourne and get an old refurbished 3 Ghz commodity box for less than $300, now; and put Linux From Scratch on it for the cost my bandwidth. An entry level Mac is close to $2K.
I'm not a suit in terms of my own thinking at all, and truthfully I hate them; but a certain amount of basic business sense is something I wish I could see, from Steve or whoever else runs Apple now. All them selling their own hardware means to me, is that I can't afford to buy it.
Apple can be as smug about their price point only being for rich, artsy New York metrosexuals as much as they want, (and they are; I remember their advertising, and that just alienated me from them even more) but the bottom line is that until Steve completely gets the memo about commodity hardware, he's going to sell a lot less units, and correspondingly still make less money (despite being at least twice as expensive per unit) than he would be otherwise.
Of course, as ESR wrote last year, Apple probably don't care much about world domination in desktop terms now, anywayz. They need a flagship desktop system, yes; but everyone I read keeps talking about how they're a media and mobile gadget shop, these days.
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. All I know is fifteen years ago any pundit worth printing in the finest ZD rags just knew Windows was the future. Predicting the future more than year or two out is a sucker's game.
UNIX is at least going to be the future until someone comes up with something else, (which admittedly they could) which hasn't happened yet.
As for the Stallmanite morons and the proverbial latte sipping, yuppie CS graduate crowd working on GNOME, don't worry about them. Stallman is getting increasingly long in the tooth, and there isn't a lot of historical precedent for cults outliving their founder. OSX having its' own, fully SUS certified toolchain gives us just the counterweight we need to him, as well.
GNOME/
Thanks you very much! :)
If you cannot see the pics on the site goto: http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj203/godofgrunts/Linux/Linux1.jpg then, if you want to see more pics change the last number in the url EX: /Linux/Linux1.jpg
turns into /Linux/Linux2.jpg
Hope that helps.
OK... Windows (Vista Pre-Installs) come out of the box moronically set up. The default user is administrator but a window pops up asking for authorization for every action, whether it is a system-wide change or not, and if you turn it off no authorization is required even for system-wide changes.
So it's set up exactly like every single other OS on the market today, and that counts as "moronically" in your book. This post is great, because it lets me filter you out as an idiot to ignore in the future.
Furthermore, much vertical, printer/multifunction driver, and gaming software requires and assumes administrative access.
And that's Microsoft's fault... how?
Comment of the year
There are a couple of image mirrors, but for "just in case", I've made another one. Please don't hotlink (my upload speed is limited too) and/or abuse, thank you.
Image mirror
i read your email
My pleasure ;)
My first slashdot effect and its not even mine, I m just a backup ;)
8GB bandwidth used in only 10 hours , I wanted to test this new dedicated server on heavy load . . . its perfect ;)
Bandwidth exceeded. Photobucket."
I don't see how that could be interpreted as Microsoft attacking Linux.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
I cant see the pictures because Photobucket is saying bandwith exceted, maybe someone should post them elsewhere (imageshack etc). I see I am not the only one :(
I cant get to a Best Buy because I live in Australia but I am wondering if Microsoft are doing this to other retail outlets. The basic premise is I take it Best Buy employees do not know any better to make an informed choice so they are easy targets. The average consumer wants Windows anyways because the average consumer only knows Windows and is too lazy to learn anything new (despite I think KDE and GNOME are easier to use for desktop purposes).
At least it shows that Linux has become a treat to the monopoly as a decade ago Microsoft use to pretend that Linux didn't exist and their only competition was MacOS.
This sig has been distributed under the Creative Commons license.
"No, I will not upgrade my XP... At least right now the odds are against it."
So you're going to join a botnet then?
It's not like you have more than those two options...
You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
"This post isn't intended to be about politics" -- that's possible, but any sane ideas you possibly had are now clouded by the wackiness of the comments that followed that statement.
Could you please point to some references where half of the current US administration support a workers revolution, the dictatorship of the proletariat and in the end a "stateless state" where nothing is owned by anyone. I mean, those are key tenets in Marxism, so it should be easy to find examples if Obama and the crew are Marxists, right?
And here is yet another Linux "plus" that in context makes no damned sense. I am a retailer, which means I sell stuff. Why would I give a flying fuck if some crap made for Win9x works or not? Is it making me money? Am I selling it? Fuck no! So why should I care?
Linux guys trot out this "argument" and you know what? It is total bullshit, and here is why: The average Joe ain't keeping his shit that long for that to actually matter dude. Sorry, but it is true, i got a whole closet full of "freebies" tossed out by the owners to back that up. The average lifespan of computer junk here is about 5 years, and I am living in BF Arkansas, where we hang onto stuff a little longer. The average I've found in big cities is around 3 years.
So while I'm not trying to piss the Linux guys off, I just have to burst that myth. You see NOBODY but Linux geeks actually give a shit about PC junk made for Win9x. Hell most of my customers just got done tossing their 2004 era WinXP boxes for new XP SP3 duals and Quads. They will keep those until Windows 7 SP2, when they will toss them for new 8-16 core bad boys. The only thing anybody keeps for any length of time at all, even here in BF Arkansas is laptops, and those they don't care about because to them they are "browsers in a box" which they surf and make the occasional doc on. So while you Linux guys may think being able to run decade old shit is actually a sellable feature, I can tell you from 15 years in retail nobody but you gives a shit.
Folks just toss the stuff for new stuff long before that ever becomes an issue. The only time I've seen that not be the case is certain industrial corner cases, and those are using VERY proprietary Windows software/hardware combos so they just don't let them on the net, which of course don't help Linux either. So try to remember we are talking RETAIL home sales here, not junk some guy gets at a flea market. The average printer lasts maybe 2 years, desktops 5. And since they are coming to us to buy NEW stuff, not old junk, none of us in retail actually give a flying fart is some crap made when PCs were 233Mhz with tiny amounts of RAM actually works or not. So for YOU that might be a "feature" but to the rest of the world we just don't care. Sorry, but that is reality. No Sale.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
38 GBs of bandwidth used by the mirror in less than 48 hours ;)
I were right to put it on a powerful server ;)
So now you're suddenly admitting that Linux drivers ARE backwards compatible, and that is suddenly not important; or it's even a drawback.
A couple of comments ago you were whining about how you couldn't recommend a network card even if you know it works with Linux, because it might break in a few updates. This despite that that has yet to happen - and in fact, only *can* happen if your wet dream, stable ABI's, come through.
If you could at least keep your arguments consistent you might make a teeny bit of sense. As it is you sound like a closed source shrill only arguing for arguments sake.
You still haven't explained why the hardware manufacturers who use chips supported by the kernel drivers can't slap tuxes on their boxes, but somehow need a magical stable ABI to be able to do so. Except by alluding to how you want Linux to walk down the driver hell of Windows, which is not going to happen - an unstable ABI is a feature, not a bug.
No, please pay attention. I am saying it is damned near impossible to buy new hardware for Linux, and you come trotting out the old "but Linux runs decade old shit!" argument. But nobody actually buys, sells, or even WANTS decade old shit, which I just pointed out. Being able to run decade old shit does NOT make you "backwards compatible",okay? If it did my sound wouldn't be borked if i dare to run an update. All being able to run decade old shit in Linux means is some geeks working in the kernel like certain versions of decade old shit and are still maintaining it, that's all.
So please try to keep YOUR arguments straight, okay? The ENTIRE conversation has been about NEW hardware sold at retail,okay? new hardware sold at retail stores. Bringing old the tired old "but Linux runs decade old shit!" argument makes NO fucking sense in that context since you can't actually go to Walmart and BUY decade old shit, which means that particular "feature" helps my customers not one fucking bit. I also pointed out with the exception of Linux geeks nobody actually wants to keep decade old shit, much less actually USE decade old shit, as the closet full of 5 year old shit I have attests to, so please try to keep on topic.
Unless you can sit here and explain how being able to run decade old shit somehow makes it so my customers can buy with confidence at Walmart without getting a paperweight your argument makes NO FUCKING SENSE AT ALL! And being "backwards compatible" would mean that I can run the drivers and software written for Debian in 2001 now without recompile, can I do that? I am running Deus Ex, a game released in 1998, on my brand new XP SP3 box. Now THAT is backwards compatible, and frankly if a device is more than 3 years old it is really the only backwards compatible that the vast majority of consumers give a shit about. But of course on that front, the one that matters to consumers, Linux is a big fail, as if you don't have source and actually know how and are able to recompile you are SOL. How damned sad that in 2009 Linux is still so damned backwards. You have nice desktops, plenty of software, but I can't even go into Walmart and buy a device without studying like it was a college exam. How fucking sad.
And finally, as for why you have to have a stable ABI? Because if you will go to the big three, Walmart, Staples, and Best Buy, you will see that the vast majority of those selling to the big three won't actually play your GPL games. They have ZERO interest in doing so, and without their support you sir are royally fucked. because without them Joe and Sally can't just walk into Walmart and buy hardware for YOUR OS, but they sure as hell can for Windows and Apple, can't they? Your talk about the kernel just shows how royally fucked up Linux has gotten thanks to politics. The fricking printer does NOT belong in the kernel, okay? Neither does the capture card, the wifi stick, etc.
The ONLY reason they ARE in the kernel is fucked up politics brought about by the "source code or nothing!" crowd, lead by their leader and God RMS, although Linus and his uber-ego is probably partially to blame as well. It is 2009 people and there is NO reason why a company shouldn't be able to slap a "Linux 32/64" folder on the CD and ship the device with a little Tux on the box. Doing so would mean my customers could actually find devices without studying like it was a test, i and the other retailers could sell Linux, and the world would be a better place. But no, that would make things easier for companies to produce binary drivers! We can't have that, as RMS would have a shitfit! So instead we have a totally fucked up situation where you can't even buy a damned laptop at retail and know whether or not the hardware on it will actually work in Linux. Guys like me can't sell your product because the amount of work involved just to keep current lists of working devices in the big three would cost far more than just buying a copy of Windows, while shopping for Windows and OSX devices is so simply it isn't even funny.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I think the Xbox division has started turning a profit actually. A small one iirc, but not a loss any more. Of course I'm sure it'll be a long time until they see enough profit to recover their losses over the previous years.
Really? I'd be interested to see any figures for that. My understanding was that the market was shrinking.
And being "backwards compatible" would mean that I can run the drivers and software written for Debian in 2001 now without recompile, can I do that?
Yes. Just install it using the Debian installer and it will run just fine.
That Linux runs "decade old shit" means that hardware is supported in Linux for decades. That means that if you buy hardware today which works with Linux, it will not break with the next version. Or the one after that. Or the one in a decade. That's what it means that "decade old shit" works in Linux. THAT is backwards compatibility.
And finally, as for why you have to have a stable ABI? Because if you will go to the big three, Walmart, Staples, and Best Buy, you will see that the vast majority of those selling to the big three won't actually play your GPL games.
And since when do those companies write hardware drivers? They don't, they never did, and they never will, is when.
All that's required for a "works with Linux" sticker is that the hardware manufacturer checks if the chips they use (you do realize hardly any of them actually design the chips in the hardware?) work with Linux. If they do, they can slap a tux on the box, and the hardware will work right now, and in the future, even when it is "decade old shit". The hardware manufacturers choose not to do this. That's not the Linux developers fault, and it has precisely nothing to do with the ABI.
Your argument is a non-argument. At least learn what the hell you're on about if you're gonna provide advice to your betters.
PS. Deus Ex runs fine in Debian as well.