Lawsuit Claims WGA Is Spyware

twitter writes "Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA), Microsoft's euphemistically named digital restrictions scheme, is the target of another spyware and false advertising lawsuit. 'Microsoft this week was sued in a Washington district court for allegedly violating privacy laws through Windows XP's Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) copy protection scheme. Similar to cases filed in 2006, the new class action case accuses Microsoft of falsely representing what information WGA would send to verify the authenticity of Windows and that it would send back information [daily IP address and other details that could be used to trace information back to a home or user]. The complaint further argued that Microsoft portrayed WGA as a necessary security update rather than acknowledge its copy protection nature in the update. WGA's implementation also prevented users from purging the protection from their PCs without completely reformatting a computer's system drive.' There were at least two other lawsuits launched in 2006 over WGA. According to the Wikipedia article, none of them have been resolved. The system is built into Vista and Windows 7."

Comments

Nothing will happen

[sconeu]

Except that MS has to hand out vouchers for more MS products, giving them an even bigger market share.

[see Sony Rootkit settlement for details]

Re:Nothing will happen

[causality]

Except that MS has to hand out vouchers for more MS products, giving them an even bigger market share.

[see Sony Rootkit settlement for details]

Yeah, and that's what's broken about the way the law handles corporations.

Corporations should face jailtime for any crime or activity that would result in a person being incarcerated. Jail for a person means the loss of most freedoms and it also means they are separated from the rest of society. "Jail" for a corporation should mean that all assets are frozen and all business activities are forced to halt for the same number of days that a real person would have been incarcerated. If the lost sales result in bankruptcy, that's too bad, just like if a person with a few years to live commits a violent crime and gets locked up for a long time and dies in prison, that's also too bad.

This to me would be the proper treatment of "corporations have the same rights as real individuals." A good alternative might be to keep the limited liability nature of a corporation for any failures or accidents, but to remove it and allow for personally prosecuting and imprisoning any and all members of upper management who knowingly support an illegal action wherever intent can be proven.

Re:Nothing will happen

[John Hasler]

> Corporations should face jailtime for any crime or activity that would result
> in a person being incarcerated.

This is a civil lawsuit. Individuals who lose civil lawsuits are not incarcerated. They are ordered to pay compensation just as corporations are.

> This to me would be the proper treatment of "corporations have the same
> rights as real individuals."

Corporations do not have the same rights as natural persons in the USA.

> A good alternative might be to keep the limited liability nature of a
> corporation for any failures or accidents, but to remove it and allow for
> personally prosecuting and imprisoning any and all members of upper
> management who knowingly support an illegal action wherever intent can be
> proven.

That is already the law in the USA.

Re:Nothing will happen

[mrmeval]

And lets execute the corporation when it kills people. Just line up the employees and shoot them. After a proper trial.

Re:Nothing will happen

[BitterOak]

"Jail" for a corporation should mean that all assets are frozen and all business activities are forced to halt for the same number of days that a real person would have been incarcerated.

The problem is that you'd be punishing a lot more people than those at Microsoft. Microsoft doesn't just sell operating systems for home computers; they sell and support a large number of business applications to a HUGE number of businesses. If Microsoft "went offline" for even just a few months, there'd be huge ripples throughout all sectors of the economy. Imagine if a critical security flaw were found in Windows, or IIS, or SQL Server and Microsoft couldn't patch it because they were "in jail". Just because you might not use MS products doesn't mean you don't do business with someone who does. It would be a disaster.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Ironsides]

This to me would be the proper treatment of "corporations have the same rights as real individuals." A good alternative might be to keep the limited liability nature of a corporation for any failures or accidents, but to remove it and allow for personally prosecuting and imprisoning any and all members of upper management who knowingly support an illegal action wherever intent can be proven.

This is ALREADY the nature of the law, no need to change it. What needs to be done is to actually enforce the law this way, with one exception. It shouldn't be limmited to upper management, it should be for ANYONE in the company.

Re:Nothing will happen

[commodore64_love]

That's what happens when you rely upon a monopoly.

But in other cases like say, exploding Ford Pintos, it wouldn't matter if Ford was "put in jail" for a few months due to the deaths it caused. Other companies could pick-up the slack of providing cars or parts to customers.

Re:Nothing will happen

[ae1294]

yes indeed... to big to fail....

Re:Nothing will happen

[AmigaMMC]

I wonder if that applies to Adobe's verification scheme, too.

Re:Nothing will happen

[node 3]

Corporations do not have the same rights as natural persons in the USA.

That is a deliberately misleading statement. Shame on you for using it.

Corporations have rights as persons. The distinction of "natural persons" is silly. It should be that persons are human beings. Period. Calling corporations "persons" (but not "natural persons") leads to a class system were some "persons" (corporations) have rights/indemnities that actual human persons do not.

That is [management going to jail for crimes the company commits] already the law in the USA.

Not really. There are situations where that happens, but tell me, how many Ford executives went to prison for the Pinto? Or that guy that owns the peanut factory that was responsible for killing people a year or so ago? Or Gates and Ballmer over MS's anti-trust conviction?

Sure, an executive might go to jail, but unless their crime involves financial misconduct, the odds of them going to jail is infinitesimal. And even in the case of financial misconduct, if their misconduct only ruins the lives of their human customers it's no big deal, only if they defrauded either the "market", the company itself, or rich people, do actual humans go to jail for the crimes of their company.

The fact is, corporations get to have their cake and eat it too. They get rights as persons, but they don't have the responsibilities and liabilities of persons. The notion that people are "natural persons" and corporations are just "persons" is absurd.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to tell you this, but there are many more things other than corporations and natural persons that are considered persons under the law. In addition, there are many different types of corporations and they are not all giant multinational mega-conglomerates like IBM or Microsoft. Finally, there are responsibilities and liabilities that corporations have that people do not have and that most common penalty for corporations is the "death penalty" or disillusion and revoking of their articles of incorporation.

Re:Nothing will happen

[smchris]

Minnesota settlement was "computer hardware or software". Microsoft bought me some surplus Linux Store keyboards with a "penguin key" instead of Windows key and a refurb scanner, linux compatible of course.

Re:Nothing will happen

[metziel]

I don't understand this. You would have a corporation stop all its business due to a ruling about, say, WGA? That is one of the most crackpot things I have ever heard.

Let's say that an individual person would get 11 years for installing spyware on my computer (that's what the "spam king" got for spamming my inbox). Do you honestly believe that Microsoft should have to stop business, with all its assets frozen, for 11 years? You do realize that means that Microsoft would not be able to live up to its support contracts, would not be able to sell new copies of Windows, and would not be able to pay its 90,000 employees during this 11 year time. It is NOT the same thing as locking someone up!

When you take action against a corporation, you aren't incarcerating one person who is proven to be a menace to society; you are ruining tens of thousands of innocent people's lives, breaking literally millions of contracts, stopping R&D in a major way (Microsoft Labs is actually a major research force in the industry - say what you will about their patent restrictions), and probably completely destabilizing the world's computer infrastructure - after all, Microsoft can't patch Windows if they aren't in business. How you think this is a good idea simply baffles me. I'm not a Microsoft defender by any means; I use Linux and Mac because I frankly don't like the company, but really, you have to realize how many millions of people the company touches, how many hospitals and schools and other completely innocent organizations rely on their work. Freezing assets is not a first-line defense against corporate wrongdoing, and frankly, it's not even a last-line defense in my book. It's a totally disproportional response to pretty much any case at all, Bernie Madoff excluded. It's signing the death warrant of the entire company, and probably signing the death warrants of many of its innocent employees.

As other posters have said, the "corporate umbrella" does not apply to intentional fraud on the part of the managers or directors of a company.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

Does your neck hurt, you know, talking out of both sides of your mouth like that?

Re:Nothing will happen

[pwizard2]

"Jail" for a corporation should mean that all assets are frozen and all business activities are forced to halt for the same number of days that a real person would have been incarcerated.

The problem with that is that means that employees (most of whom have little to do with what the company does as far as business is concerned) don't get paid since all assets are frozen and might even get cut as the corp tries to stave off bankruptcy during the punishment period. Essentially, the corporation gets shut down, but the innocent employees are the ones who get punished.

You can't unfreeze assets just to pay workers in this scenario because little would stop some execs from looting the company and skipping town in such a situation.

Re:Nothing will happen

[RobertLTux]

easy way to fix this

Require with force of law that each payout be tendered as CASH (or cash equivalent instrument) with the option of getting an actual
mailed card or an E-Card.

Re:Nothing will happen

[jd2112]

Corporations should face jailtime for any crime or activity that would result in a person being incarcerated.

That may sound like a good idea, but the net result for such a law would be that every US corporation, from IBM and Microsoft down to Joe's Pizza House, would re-incorporate outside of the US.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Trogre]

Absolutely. Just make damned sure it's a monetary compensation that's imposed, and not vouchers that cost them nothing.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Minwee]

Imagine if a critical security flaw were found in Windows, or IIS, or SQL Server and Microsoft couldn't patch it because they were "in jail".

You're suggesting that they patch critical security flaws right away. The only difference here is the quality of their excuse.

It would be a disaster.

Then maybe they shouldn't break the law. Or am I thinking too hard again?

Re:Nothing will happen

[ceoyoyo]

Perhaps if the GP's system was implemented before MS got to be so big there would have been more incentive for a) MS to act more ethically, b) other businesses to choose a software supplier with a better reputation for ethical behaviour and c) businesses to source their software from a variety of vendors to spread their risk around.

Re:Nothing will happen

[v1]

Microsoft has had monopolistic practices, but they are not (by definition) a monopoly.

Naturally that depends on what your definition of monopoly is, but one common definition seems to be:

In economics, a monopoly exists when a specific individual or an enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it.

Microsoft consistently fits this definition. Though Europe seems to be a bit more consistent in enforcing it, probably because MS's lobbying is far less effective across the pond.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Trogre]

Interesting... so you're saying that Microsoft is too big to let fail? Perhaps some day we should bail them out too?

Re:Nothing will happen

[PPCAvenger]

"Jail" for a corporation should mean that all assets are frozen and all business activities are forced to halt for the same number of days that a real person would have been incarcerated.

The problem is that you'd be punishing a lot more people than those at Microsoft. Microsoft doesn't just sell operating systems for home computers; they sell and support a large number of business applications to a HUGE number of businesses. If Microsoft "went offline" for even just a few months, there'd be huge ripples throughout all sectors of the economy. Imagine if a critical security flaw were found in Windows, or IIS, or SQL Server and Microsoft couldn't patch it because they were "in jail". Just because you might not use MS products doesn't mean you don't do business with someone who does. It would be a disaster.

This, to me, sounds like the system that brought us the notion of "too big to fail"

 

Corporations should never have been able to get into to that position but it is possible to reel them in with enough political and populist will.

That's neither here nor there. I would address the subject of "corporate prison" or "corporate execution" in the following way.

A company sentenced to termination would have all assets liquidated and distributed. First priority is to pay off all obligations to the rank and file employees (pensions, benefits, remainder of the year's salary, things of that nature) and any outstanding debts. Anything left over would be distributed amongst the share holders since they're essentially just a bunch of rich gamblers playing an inherently risky game. It's not like this would happen overnight and they wouldn't have time to get out.

None of the distribution would apply to any members of the executive team, their salaries, bonuses, golden parachutes, stocks or what have you are forfeit as they are, essentially, the criminal minds behind the operation. Ideally, I'd like to see their personal assets seized, liquidated and redistributed along with the corporate assets.

 

In the case of technology companies who provide ongoing services to their customers, be it software patches or replacement parts; all source code, patents, design schematics, etc.. would be released into the public domain providing free market opportunities to service the markets that were left without support and/or provide competition to the remaining players in the market. This should result in plenty of players ready to service the departed corporation's customers rather rapidly.

 

Clients may have had long term contracts or what have you and would be forced to incur additional expenses as a result but that could just as easily have happen if the company declared bankruptcy or a disaster happened. With all info on the products now public they would have the option of bringing service in-house if they so chose.

 

Utility industries would be a bit more difficult to deal with but I'd prefer the state take them over with responsibility only to maintain the infrastructure while generating revenue by leasing access out to businesses who wish to compete for customers. Exceptions could be made to provide cheap or at cost service to other state entities (anything tax funded, basically).

 

Much of the above is execution, the jailing could simply involve the public domaining of their existing IP. The corporation is still in business but is now subject to full out competition and any client who no longer wishes to do business with "a felon" can rapidly make that choice without concern about product transition periods or expenses.

 

I'm (probably obviously) not an expert by any means or even an expert in training. I'm just another citizen with an opinion on how our society can be a better place.

Re:Nothing will happen

[c6gunner]

Microsoft consistently fits this definition

By that definition, Apple is a monopoly because they're the only ones who sell the iPhone. McDonalds is a monopoly because they're the only ones who sell a McChicken. That is one stupid definition.

Re:Nothing will happen

[azrider]

So, can a corporation have free speech? No, because it doesn't have a mouth.

See the first case that SCOTUS will hear (one month before the normal start of their session). It is a "free speech" issue regarding campaign finance (do corporations, unions and PACs) have the right to air political ads without claiming them as a "donation in kind", triggering matching funds.

The argument being presented in support claims that campaign donations (from those corporations, unions and PACs) are free speech and therefore cannot be legally constrained.

Even though they are not able to vote, they are still able to influence elections. Some say that their influence is corrosive.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Dragonslicer]

Presumably, "product or service" means "type of product or service". Apple is the only one who sells the iPhone, but the iPhone does not dictate the cell phone market. Similarly, McDonald's does not dictate the chicken sandwich market. Microsoft, on the other hand, had near complete control on the operating system market up until the resurgence of Macs in the last few years, though their control is still very strong, and it's still nearly complete in the corporate market.

If my interpretation is wrong, then yes, obviously that definition doesn't make any sense.

Re:Nothing will happen

[greentshirt]

No where does the poster sound vengeful or envious, they are simply stating that in order to stay consistent, non-natural persons must share in both the (more significant) rights and the responsibilities of personhood. It is a perfectly reasonable argument and that you can't refute it in a meaningful way suggests that either his point went way over your head or you're willfully trying to obfuscate the issue.

Re:Nothing will happen

[ozmanjusri]

can a corporation have free speech? No, because it doesn't have a mouth.

Tell that to all the Microsoft "Reputation Managers" infesting all these discussions.

Re:Nothing will happen

[shentino]

Um, that "large group of people" happens to be the shareholders, who are rightly excluded from being held liable.

Re:Nothing will happen

[atmtarzy]

Then maybe they shouldn't break the law.

I think if the guys with the power to make decisions at MS could chose between making $100M and killing the global economy, or not, they'd take the $100M, quickly get it put into their Swiss bank account, and retire in Switzerland while the rest of the world goes to hell. Maybe I'm being cynical, but if MS (or any other overly-huge corporation, like say AIG pre-recession) were to just disappear from the global economy, it'd be like ripping a kidney out of your body. You just might survive, but it sure is not going to be pleasant. If we handle the situation differently, and slowly kill MS off (by essentially shutting down everything but say support and whatever people are necessary to keep the systems relatively secure), the rest of the world will be much more able to adequately adjust.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

screw the jail time.
You want to get serious with a corporation, revoke their charter.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Wolfier]

I completely agree with your point of view.

Therefore, the solution should not be vengeful actions on persons until evidence is gathered on the questionable conducts.

Instead, the only suitable course would be to put an end to the failed experiment called "corporate personhood". A corporation is by the laws of nature not the same as a person. Therefore what works on a human being (rights, responsibilities, awards, punishments) are totally meaningless to corporations, or at least have their very definitions entirely twisted.

If corporations are to be granted human-like rights, there should be a separate constitution for them so that laws made to enforce responsibilities and rights of corporations would be well-defined.

For example, currently corporations can donate to political courses just like individual persons can. This makes no sense because corporations' concern (mostly, profit maximization, either short term or long term) is entirely different - in fact a lot of the time are totally at odds with individual persons' concerns. Do corporations need to eat? No. Do they have a health that can deteriorate if they ingest something poisonous? No. Can they have children that they care a lot? No. Do they have concerns about privacy? Yes, but if you snoop on them like they do on you, it'll be labeled as industrial espionage.

There are numerous examples to show that corporations will do whatever it can when they can get away with it. It's just "corporate nature". What a wonderful world it'd be if these desires weren't usually in conflict with desires of real persons.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

That is a deliberately misleading statement. Shame on you for using it.

Thanks for the drama.

The fact is, corporations get to have their cake and eat it too. They get rights as persons, but they don't have the responsibilities and liabilities of persons. The notion that people are "natural persons" and corporations are just "persons" is absurd.

Agreed. It is an absurd distortion of the english language. Euphemism. The fact remains, however, that it is a legal term, with a legal distinction from "natural person". If you want it to be changed, then don't try to bully people for using the term, educate them and get them to change the wording of the law through petition or something.

Re:Nothing will happen

[shentino]

Not to mention all the employees who are probably going to get laid off as a result when the jailed corporation isn't allowed to settle the payroll.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Jeian]

So, if I'm reading you right, you're recommending:
- Effectively paralyzing all clients who rely on a "jailed" corporation to do their own business.
- Putting a lot of employees out of work because some manager, probably outside their division, made a stupid decision.

What a, um, brilliant idea.

Re:Nothing will happen

[causality]

Ah, now we get to it. You don't like executives and think they should go to jail when a large group of people all get together and make an agreement to undertake a risky venture and said venture goes south.

I can't speak for the person to whom you were replying but I can give you my response to this. I'm rather indifferent to executives. There is one thing I really don't like about them, however. I really don't like that they can either get away with, or receive only a slap on the wrist, for doing things that would cause the average person to be locked up for a very long time if he/she did the same.

Some people are a bit petty, so they will call that jealousy or envy because that's the only way they can understand it, but really it's an issue of rule of law. If the concept of rule of law is tossed out, so that the law doesn't apply equally to everyone, then the society we know and many of the freedoms it protects get tossed out with it. It's a slow process of erosion that can take generations to happen, but I see something like that beginning to happen here and it really should be recognized for what it is.

Yes, that's how it used to be before incorporation, and the trouble with that system is that no one will take charge of those risky ventures because they'd be afraid of going to jail.

Not sure about the GP, but my original post accounted for this and I don't believe there is a flaw in it (as in, if there is one I don't see it). Keep the limited liability nature of a corporation, that way if a venture fails or an accident happens then the members of the corporation are not personally liable. However, if they make decisions that they know will result in real harm to real people, and if it can be proven that they knew this would happen, then you remove the "corporate veil" and you personally prosecute every member of management who was a part of the decision-making.

You talk about class and rights, but really you're just feeling vengeful and envious of people you don't even know, and I think you're pretty hypocritical in feigning concern for the little guy when under your system he'd be mired in poverty right now.

I don't believe that prosecuting people who knowingly and intentionally cause harm to unwilling third parties threatens anyone's rights in any way. In fact, I believe it strengthens them, specifically it strengthens the rights of those third parties to not be harmed against their will. The only thing I am personally calling for is the removal of one technique for intentionally harming other people with impunity. Do you believe that your objection to the GP applies here? I don't think it does but if I am overlooking something I would be glad to have it pointed out.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're 12 years old, I applaud your attempt at thinking about socio-economic issues.

If you're much more than 12 years old, you really need to get a clue and start thinking of things in more nuanced detail.

First, I doubt you know a damn think about "the way law handles corporations" other than the nonsense you read on slashdot.

Corporations CAN be fined AND the directors imprisoned for illegal activities. They can also be restricted from certain markets and activities in some cases.

However, such remedies are reserved for blatant cases of illegality. You'd really have to be drinking the slashdot kool-aid to think that such measures are appropriate because some jackass thinks that he has a civil case to try to extort some money from microsoft due to their not unreasonable attempts to protect their software from piracy through an online activation process. even if under some miracle (read: sympathetic euro-judge) the civil case wins, the chance that this would reach a standard of 'criminality' is essentially ZERO.

yes, your naive babble about corporate responsibility under the law is all well and good - except that that's the way things have existed, well, for as long as there have been corporations!

Re:Nothing will happen

[causality]

And lets execute the corporation when it kills people. Just line up the employees and shoot them. After a proper trial.

There IS a type of corporate death penalty. That would be the revocation of the corporate charter. It practically never happens, however, because we collectively care a lot more about the inconvenience this would cause than we care about justice.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Khyber]

"Um, that "large group of people" happens to be the shareholders, who are rightly excluded from being held liable."

Sounds like you're a shareholder. Liability should fall even MORESO on the shareholders, it's their company, they'd better damned-well keep TIGHT reins on what the hell is happening and they'd better be FULLY INFORMED of every business decision. FULL LIABILITY. Hiring someone else to take care of your business, thus leaving you blissfully ignorant of what is happening as long as money rolls in, is not an excuse.

Re:Nothing will happen

[v1]

By that definition, Apple is a monopoly because...

CORRECT! but being a monopoly isn't illegal. Read that again.

ABUSING your monopoly position, THAT is illegal. Read the linked wikipedia article, they go into length describing this. It's amazing how many people think monopolies are illegal...

One very common monopoly abuse is when you use your monopoly status in one market to gain an advantage in another market. For example, if you're selling widgets in all 50 states, and you halve your price in the states that have competitors selling widgets, and double your prices in the other states that you have no competition in to cover selling them at a loss in the other states (to drive your competition out of business in those other states), that'll get you jumped really fast.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Khyber]

"If Microsoft was in "jail," it would affect many parts of the economy"

Indeed, the economy would bloom, and the computer market would develop at unheard of speeds because the biggest obstacle to any new computer technology just got removed from the equation.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

There are two types of persons in the law: "Natural persons" and "artificial persons." Individual people are "natural persons" and corporations are "artificial persons." "Person" is a collective now that includes both.

Natural persons have "personal" rights that corporations do not have... such as a right to privacy. Artificial persons have no right to vote, and are not counted in the census. No corporation has a right that a natural person does not have, so it is *your* post that has the more misleading statement as it is an outright falsehood whereas the parent post you complain about is accurate, albeit spun in one direction.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

That is a very creative and bold idea. But it is perhaps too bold for our society to ever implement at present.

The threat of punishment is suppose to deter criminal activity by motivating the potential wrongdoer to carefully consider the consequences of his actions. If corporations respond to monetary fines, which is the currently acceptable means of corporate punishment, as merely another cost of doing business, then the motivation is low. But if the punishment were an actual suspension of business activity then managers and stockholders would surely consider much more closely the behavior of their enterprise.

Society needs these kinds of bold solutions.

Re:Nothing will happen

[blankoboy]

Something already has happened. WGA was t he final straw for me as I finally migrated to Mac and am never looking back. Microsoft can keep all their licenses to themselves for all I care. I vote with my wallet.

Re:Nothing will happen

[causality]

Perhaps if the GP's system was implemented before MS got to be so big there would have been more incentive for a) MS to act more ethically, b) other businesses to choose a software supplier with a better reputation for ethical behaviour and c) businesses to source their software from a variety of vendors to spread their risk around.

Thank you. Those "network" or secondary effects are actually the entire point of the idea I was proposing. I think you may be the only person who really understood where I was going with that.

Collectively, we are voting with our feet each time we purchase or support anything in any way. We don't think of it that way, however. We just carelessly go for whatever is cheapest or most convenient. By doing that, we are supporting practices and ideas that deserve to fail. Often, we are also enriching and equipping people who do not have our interests at heart and who already have undue influence over our society and political systems. A reason to think a little more carefully about who you do business with, and in turn, a reason for that business to think a little more carefully about the effects and implications of its decisions, is something that may improve the situation.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Attila Dimedici]

"Um, that "large group of people" happens to be the shareholders, who are rightly excluded from being held liable."

Sounds like you're a shareholder. Liability should fall even MORESO on the shareholders, it's their company, they'd better damned-well keep TIGHT reins on what the hell is happening and they'd better be FULLY INFORMED of every business decision. FULL LIABILITY. Hiring someone else to take care of your business, thus leaving you blissfully ignorant of what is happening as long as money rolls in, is not an excuse.

I take it you don't have a 401K? How about some other type of mutual fund? If you do, do you know what stocks are held by them?

Re:Nothing will happen

[Zonnald]

So a shareholder with 325 of 1.6 billion shares should hold a tight reign over a company and be even more responsible for it's actions?

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a civil lawsuit. Individuals who lose civil lawsuits are not incarcerated. They are ordered to pay compensation just as corporations are.

If I am sued in civil court and ordered to pay the "victim" $100,000 in compensation, I can't pay that person in coupons I've been plucking out of magazines etc. This is far more similar to corporations handing out "freebies" of their products to people they must compensate.

If a corporation is forced to pay 5 million dollars (or whatever) to the victims of their crimes, they should have to pay in cold hard cash. NOTHING ELSE.

Re:Nothing will happen

[tyrione]

Corporations do not have the same rights as natural persons in the USA.

That is a deliberately misleading statement. Shame on you for using it.

Corporations have rights as persons. The distinction of "natural persons" is silly. It should be that persons are human beings. Period. Calling corporations "persons" (but not "natural persons") leads to a class system were some "persons" (corporations) have rights/indemnities that actual human persons do not.

That is [management going to jail for crimes the company commits] already the law in the USA.

Not really. There are situations where that happens, but tell me, how many Ford executives went to prison for the Pinto? Or that guy that owns the peanut factory that was responsible for killing people a year or so ago? Or Gates and Ballmer over MS's anti-trust conviction?

Sure, an executive might go to jail, but unless their crime involves financial misconduct, the odds of them going to jail is infinitesimal. And even in the case of financial misconduct, if their misconduct only ruins the lives of their human customers it's no big deal, only if they defrauded either the "market", the company itself, or rich people, do actual humans go to jail for the crimes of their company.

The fact is, corporations get to have their cake and eat it too. They get rights as persons, but they don't have the responsibilities and liabilities of persons. The notion that people are "natural persons" and corporations are just "persons" is absurd.

Persons should be clarified as actual single entity human beings, by the US Supreme Court so we can get rid of all the douche bag lobbying going on in our Congress and Executive branches by these "corporate persons."

Re:Nothing will happen

[tyrione]

I hate to tell you this, but there are many more things other than corporations and natural persons that are considered persons under the law. In addition, there are many different types of corporations and they are not all giant multinational mega-conglomerates like IBM or Microsoft. Finally, there are responsibilities and liabilities that corporations have that people do not have and that most common penalty for corporations is the "death penalty" or disillusion and revoking of their articles of incorporation.

You're correct and it's a misinterpretation of the First Amendment, due to the US Tax Code that classified them as individuals and thus being entitled to a redress of grievances==> thus leading to a corporate entity being an individual lobbying [aka protesting their right peaceably to assemble for a redress of grievances].

Re:Nothing will happen

[Martin Blank]

Smaller corporations can be (and are) shut down if the majority of their business deals with breaking the law. However, larger corporations bring in other concerns.

Let's say that IBM overstepped their bounds, sufficient enough for your corporate death penalty. Then what? Wipe them out of existence? Fire all of their employees? That's tens of thousands of people, not to mention their subcontractors which suddenly have no income from their contracts with IBM.

How about Exxon-Mobil? Their crimes are surely more significant. But then what? Shut down their operations and fire everyone? Again, tens of thousands of employees would be out of a job. Subcontractors would have sudden problems. And oil prices would spike as never before because Exxon's operations produce some four million barrels of oil per day -- about 5% of the world's output.

If something went horribly awry with either of these two -- or even with an operation that has only a few hundred employees -- the better action is to prosecute the executives and those employees who knew or reasonably should have known that what they were doing was wrong. The corporate shield does not exist for those actions. Maybe it should be enforced more often, but the idea of a corporate death penalty will do more to stagnate development than to promote good corporate citizenship.

Re:Nothing will happen

[DougWebb]

This is a civil lawsuit. Individuals who lose civil lawsuits are not incarcerated. They are ordered to pay compensation just as corporations are.

The problem with this was mentioned by the OP: corporations that are ordered to pay 'compensation' often just give out vouchers for their products, rather than cash. Those vouchers are valued at the full suggested retail price of the products, even if the products never are sold for that price, and the actual cost to the corporation is a small fraction of that price. Individuals who lose civil lawsuits do not have this option, and neither should corporations.

Re:Nothing will happen

[vadim_t]

So what about it?

When Hans Reiser was sent to jail, the field of filesystems suffered because of it, and whatever clients he had got screwed. Yet I don't see anybody arguing that he should have been allowed to get away with murder, just to avoid damage to the people that depended on him.

Re:Nothing will happen

[negRo_slim]

Because the biggest obstacle to any new computer technology just got removed from the equation.

In what way does Microsoft impede new computer technology?
Seems to me by providing a consistent platform on which one can develop new technologies they seem to enhance it?

Or by your viewpoint, is computer technology == operating system?

Re:Nothing will happen

[node 3]

Actually, they can't eat cake, because they don't really exist. It's the same reason you can't really punish them.

It's called a metaphor. Very seldom does it actually rain cats and dogs. Do you find you have trouble talking with people at times?

So, can a corporation have free speech? No, because it doesn't have a mouth. Can a corporation carry a gun? No, because it doesn't have any hands to hold it with. Etc.

Bull Shit. The reason we have lobbyists running so rampant in Washington is that the Supreme Court decided that corporations are people, and because people, not "natural persons", have the right to free speech, then so to do corporations.

And back to your lack of English comprehension, free speech doesn't require a mouth. The newspapers have the right of free speech (and actually *are* mentioned by name in the Constitution, which would be unnecessary if the Constitution meant for corporations to be included as persons).

Ah, now we get to it. You don't like executives and think they should go to jail when a large group of people all get together and make an agreement to undertake a risky venture and said venture goes south.

I said no such thing. When a bunch of people take a risk and they fail and they suffer the consequences, I don't hate them. In fact, although they failed, I applaud them for trying (assuming their venture wasn't completely idiotic or deliberately detrimental to others).

On the other hand, when executives make decisions which will knowingly and unnecessarily lead to significant bodily harm, and even death, like the Pinto. Then yes, fuck them hard. They belong in jail for the remainder of their lives.

Stated again, with the Pinto example, the executives knew the car had a defect that would absolutely lead to the deaths and severe injury to their customers. They knew small children would burn to death, but they green lighted the project because those deaths were cheaper than either fixing the car or scrapping it altogether. Men who make such decisions do not deserve to interact with society unless they're wearing orange jump suits and cleaning the side of the highway.

Yes, that's how it used to be before incorporation, and the trouble with that system is that no one will take charge of those risky ventures because they'd be afraid of going to jail.

I'm not talking against incorporation. I'm talking against treating corporations as people and giving them rights which they were never meant to have. I made this very clear in my post. Your local community college will be glad to enroll you in remedial reading comprehension classes. It's rather inexpensive.

You talk about class and rights, but really you're just feeling vengeful and envious of people you don't even know, and I think you're pretty hypocritical in feigning concern for the little guy when under your system he'd be mired in poverty right now.

Are there unicorns in the world you live in?

Re:Nothing will happen

[node 3]

I wasn't bullying him for using the term. He was using the term to hide the fact that corporations are treated as persons.

Analogy:

Poster A: I don't like mountain lions. They are cats, and cats have sharp claws.
Poster B: Mountain lions aren't domestic cats.

The original poster didn't say corporations were natural persons. He said they were persons, which is actually 100% true. By rebutting with, "they aren't natural persons, and don't have the rights of natural persons" is a deliberate attempt to misdirect. It is true, but in no way rebuts what the original poster stated.

The fact remains, however, that it is a legal term, with a legal distinction from "natural person". If you want it to be changed, then don't try to bully people for using the term, educate them and get them to change the wording of the law through petition or something.

I wasn't bullying him for using it. I was "bullying" (shaming, really) for using it to mislead.

Re:Nothing will happen

[node 3]

I hate to tell you this, but there are many more things other than corporations and natural persons that are considered persons under the law. In addition, there are many different types of corporations and they are not all giant multinational mega-conglomerates like IBM or Microsoft.

You mean there are legal entities other than mega-corporations and human beings? Thanks for clearing that up!?

Finally, there are responsibilities and liabilities that corporations have that people do not have and that most common penalty for corporations is the "death penalty" or disillusion and revoking of their articles of incorporation.

If you live in the late 18th century and early 19th century, yes, that is true. This is no longer the case. In the past, corporations had to be sanctioned by the state in which they operated, and had to be created for a specific purpose and limited duration. Once the supreme court decided that states were persons, then reciprocity came into play and if a corporation existed in one state, it had to be accepted by any other state. So the first state to decide corporations could exist indefinitely got all the business, and in order to compete, all other states had to follow suit.

Now, as to the "corporate death penalty", when was the last time any major corporation was "put to death" for having killed anyone? I suspect even small business don't get that treatment, and they mostly "die" due to financial failure from resulting lawsuits.

But even if small corporations are legally revoked as a punishment for criminal wrongdoing (other than financial, as I stated in my original post, the one true "crime" for which corporations can be harshly punished for is one of financial wrongdoing), the fact that major corporations are immune from such concerns is applicable to the discussion at hand.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Hal_Porter]

That is a deliberately misleading statement. Shame on you for using it.

Corporations have rights as persons. The distinction of "natural persons" is silly. It should be that persons are human beings. Period. Calling corporations "persons" (but not "natural persons") leads to a class system were some "persons" (corporations) have rights/indemnities that actual human persons do not.

I have a dream! A dream where all Americans, both corporate and human, have the same rights. Where Americans are value for their strength of spirit, not in the number of individuals that constitute them. Where a corporate American can run for the Presidency and other corporate Americans can vote for it.

Brothers, sisters and corporations, I have a dream!

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

The accounting firm Arthur Anderson was shut down because of illegal activity. In fact, many companies are shut down because they conduct illegal operations. This mostly happens in vice related business such as gambling and prostitution, but it can happen in many areas of the law. However, administrative law has first dibs, then criminal law, so most companies that commit white collar crime get civil penalties. If a company is such down for criminal activity, it limits the tort actions of its victims, so in most cases they file under civil code and allow torts to proceed.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

that just means you have to be careful to who you do business with. just like with people: if your supplier proves to be a criminal - tough luck with getting more of these things that fall of the truck.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

Not much different from what we did to the Nazi's.... I concur and agree.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

It is more than that. When you can't reasonably switch to a competitors product you have a monopoly. When the monopoly takes actions that prevent you from switching that is an illegal monopoly. You can easily switch from McDonalds Big Mac to Burger Kings Whopper. You can't do that with many products. Try doing that with an iPhone or any device using proprietary DRM schemes. Apple for all intensive purposes has a monopoly on high end cell phones. Even though Apple doesn't not have a majority of the market for cell phones they do dominate a class of cell phones. And in that class they illegally inhibit competitors products.

Re:Nothing will happen

[drsmithy]

CORRECT!

Incorrect. Apple is not a monopoly (in no small part because you can't be a monopoly until a court rules you as one).

ABUSING your monopoly position, THAT is illegal. Read the linked wikipedia article, they go into length describing this. It's amazing how many people think monopolies are illegal...

That's because it's basically impossible to be a monopoly and _not_ be "abusive", since a) you can be a monopoly without actually knowing about it and b) normal and typical business practices (eg: special pricing schemes and sole vendor agreements) suddenly become "illegal".

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be a disaster.

...should we really allow them to break laws because it hurts to punish them? why even pretend there are laws that corporations must follow? so long as you can hurt enough people, you get a free pass to do whatever your little heart would like. doesn't that sound great? it's kind of like a neighborhood bully.

isolating business from regular market function is a bad idea.

Re:Nothing will happen

[drsmithy]

Microsoft, on the other hand, had near complete control on the operating system market up until the resurgence of Macs in the last few years, though their control is still very strong, and it's still nearly complete in the corporate market.

At which point in the last, say, two decades has there not been at least one functionally equivalent alternative to the Windows platform ?

Re:Nothing will happen

[drsmithy]

It shouldn't be limmited to upper management, it should be for ANYONE in the company.

Because clearly Suzy the receptionist, Bill the janitor and Jake the help-desk guy have not only in-depth knowledge of, but extensive influence over, the decision making process of executive management and therefore deserve to share their fate.

I suppose you think when people are executed any relatives they have closer than a second cousin should go down with them as well ?

Re:Nothing will happen

[corsec67]

Better solution:
Require the Lawyers to be paid in the EXACT same way as the class.

So if the reward is coupons, then the lawyers get 30% of the coupons.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

Suppose I missed the sarcasm. How ever I think that sounds like a perfectly reasonable course of action.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine if a critical security flaw were found in Windows, or IIS, or SQL Server and Microsoft couldn't patch it because [...]

Whaddaya mean "imagine"?

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

you have it wrong - They shouldn't let themselves be caught breaking the law without ensuring that judge/jury is sufficiently greased.
At the same time, companies shouldn't let themselves depend on software where there is a single point of Failure of this sort (sole source of fixes being just 1 vendor)

Re:Nothing will happen

[KrimZon]

It should happen in RIAA trials. If you copy some songs you pay in coupons that entitles the RIAA to the same number of copies songs that you have composed and written.

Re:Nothing will happen

[mpe]

Corporations should face jailtime for any crime or activity that would result in a person being incarcerated. Jail for a person means the loss of most freedoms and it also means they are separated from the rest of society. "Jail" for a corporation should mean that all assets are frozen and all business activities are forced to halt for the same number of days that a real person would have been incarcerated.

In many cases people who are only accused of a crime are held in jails, subject to curfew or bail conditions, etc.

A good alternative might be to keep the limited liability nature of a corporation for any failures or accidents, but to remove it and allow for personally prosecuting and imprisoning any and all members of upper management who knowingly support an illegal action wherever intent can be proven.

Or you could just go back the the original meaning. Where this simply ment that that investors were not liable for the debts of failed companies.

Re:Nothing will happen

[PRMan]

The problem with the Ford Pinto is that nobody bothered to prosecute the executives criminally. Not that they couldn't have. They just didn't.

I worked at a company where a Vice President was merely forcing a vendor to put a relative on their payroll as a kickback. (It's bad, but nobody was physically hurt.) The FBI showed up at work and the guy went to prison for a few months. The corporation (and all the jobs) continued and the corporation actually grew, because they were the best at doing what they did and many people benefited greatly from their service.

It makes no sense to "punish the corporation" for the actions of a couple individuals. But there are far too few cases of prosecutors going after executives (or employees) for decisions that they knew would cause deaths or great harm and then signing off without making any attempt to fix it.

Re:Nothing will happen

[PRMan]

But, but, it's open source. ANYONE can pick it up and continue it... Right?

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because it's basically impossible to be a monopoly and _not_ be "abusive"...

Incorrect. There are a set of rules to follow. Many companies do so. Microsoft often do not.

I am tired of people suggesting that it's ok for Microsoft to break the law, for some reason.

Hypocrites.

Re:Nothing will happen

[AmiMoJo]

A corporation is made up of many people, and it seems unfair to punish all of them for the crimes of a few. If you are just a drone and your company is put out of business because of something illegal the CEO did, you would probably be quite upset about that.

Of course there are situations where this is unavoidable, but when possible the law should try to target those responsible and avoid harming anyone else. It is notoriously hard to do in practice, but that is due to poor laws rather than any inherent problem.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

That almost happened to a lawyer in an LA court. The judge ordered him paid in the same $10 gift certificates the class was getting. Then later reversed himself and went with cash. *sigh*

Re:Nothing will happen

[Ash Vince]

If something went horribly awry with either of these two -- or even with an operation that has only a few hundred employees -- the better action is to prosecute the executives and those employees who knew or reasonably should have known that what they were doing was wrong.

This is pretty much what the law in my country (UK) says should happen. The problem is that many business decisions are taken behind closed doors in informal meetings. Once you get high up the corporate structure proving who "reasonably should have known" beyond reasonable doubt becomes a complete impossibility.

For a good example of this see Hatfield Rail Crash. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatfield_rail_crash). All the executives were acquitted in this case, although we then nationalised the company. Maybe this is better idea than a corporate death penalty.

It is also worth noting that there are probably many executives who want the staff under them to take these risks and leave them out of the loop so they have plausible deniability in court, the media or simply to help them sleep at night.

Re:Nothing will happen

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

The problem is that you'd be punishing a lot more people than those at Microsoft. Microsoft doesn't just sell operating systems for home computers; they sell and support a large number of business applications to a HUGE number of businesses. If Microsoft "went offline" for even just a few months, there'd be huge ripples throughout all sectors of the economy.

Good! Every business knows that doing business with the mafia, while profitable, is very risky. Their partners could be thrown in jail and as a result unable to hold up their part of the bargain. That's one of the reasons people avoid doing business with habitual criminals. If companies avoid doing business with criminal corporations, that motivates corporations to not commit criminal acts and helps to fix the broken markets we're struggling with now.

Imagine if a critical security flaw were found in Windows, or IIS, or SQL Server and Microsoft couldn't patch it because they were "in jail".

There are always critical, unpatched flaws in Windows and related software. That's why there's a whole market of third party security tools and services to put between them and the world and if MS's failure to deliver makes that too expensive, companies can start doing business with less someone who is not a criminal and is less risky to their bottom line. Rip it out and replace it with Apache where no one company being "jailed" will stop you from getting fixes.

Just because you might not use MS products doesn't mean you don't do business with someone who does. It would be a disaster.

It would be volatile in the short term, then settle down and be fine because businesses would adapt and MS would adapt.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Lumpy]

that death penalty is bullshit as it can be re- applied for in 6 minutes under a different name. Whoop-te doo.

These people know they can get away with anything and at most will get a 3-12 month stay at a special resort where the worst they get is low quality old caviar. Put them in a cell with bubba the anal rapist, I prefer them to be beaten up daily by thugs that were told how hey made their granma poor.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

If Microsoft's assets are critical to US infrastructure then, in a time Microsoft misbehaves, their "technology" should be appropriated and another company put in charge of handling security updates.

Microsoft shouldn't get out of trouble just for being "important".

Re:Nothing will happen

[ceoyoyo]

I can't remember who said it, but the idea was that the system we've got encourages corporations to be perfect sociopaths. In many ways they're treated as persons but notably NOT in the way of expected behaviour or consequences. In fact, if a corporation does not do all it can to maximize it's value, the shareholders sue.

At some point we're going to have to do something to provide a built in incentive for corporations to act ethically. The solutions we've tried so far don't seem to be working very well.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Lumpy]

you've never called MSFT for support. They are worthless.

I have received better support for MSFT products from 3rd parties than I have EVER received from Microsoft.

If MSFT went offline, I think most businesses would not notice unless the new WGA shuts off the OS. There are 900,000 ways to get BETTER support for Microsoft products. you certainly don't need them.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Lumpy]

You CAN run a large business with linux. But, managers are in most places that really do not understand the IT they have, or IT in general so they refuse to change based on Outright lies like cost of retraining the users and FUD like security and TCO. Retraining is NOt an issue, and a switch from office 2003 or from XP to Vista or 7 will cost the same amount.

Yes MSFT techs are FAR cheaper than Linux techs, but you need more of the cheap ones to keep it working while a skilled MSFT tech is more effective. Companies dont want to pay $80,000+ for each skilled tech, they prefer $35,000 for the MCSE ones, and hire 2 of them. They actually end up spending more but the lower quality tech looks like they are doing more as they are always busy while the skilled guy is not as busy 6 months later as he has stuff working right and automated.

OO.o and Linux CAN fill in most of what a business does. the vertical apps CAN be rewritten to run under linux and some do work under WINE perfectly. but it requires educated executives and educated and skilled managers to understand it, calculate the cost and TCO. PLUS the company has to care about the costs 5 years from now instead of the corporate mantra of "what about next quarter?"

There are viable replacements, and many company's use them. Autozone is a Linux using company. Burlington Coat factory, city of largo Florida, Government offices of Mexico City, Earnie ball corporation, all use mostly linux in their day to day operations.

Re:Nothing will happen

[mpe]

If I am sued in civil court and ordered to pay the "victim" $100,000 in compensation, I can't pay that person in coupons I've been plucking out of magazines etc.

And you certainly wouldn't be allowed to get away with coupons you had printed yourself.

Re:Nothing will happen

[vadim_t]

They can, and they have, at least to some extent in my understanding.

But if you have a contract with Hans where he promised to deliver specific functionality by a deadline, that volunteers are willing to maintain and improve things doesn't help you much.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Belial6]

That is a common BS excuse. If I as an individual own a business, and I get put in jail, the same thing will happen. Yes, to fewer people, but there will still be employees and customers that will be affected. Heck, if a housewife with a couple of kids gets thrown in jail, you are punishing more people than just the criminal. What you are advocating is fitting the punishment to the persons station in society. Caste systems are bad. Particularly for the people who are of a lower caste. You are advocating that real live humans are the untouchables of your caste system, and that this is a good thing.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Segisaurus]

If you are too big to fail then you are too big to exist. I don't care how many people would be out of work.

And for each of the businesses listed there are several other competitors that will gladly and quickly take up the reins from them. And with all those new contracts they'll have to hire more help. So they can hire the people who were recently laid off.

Look at the banking failure. Before the govt. meddled with bail out money the surviving banks were buying up the assests of the failed and hiring some of the laid off employees. The "Free Market" is self correcting. Or have I been Lied to.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Segisaurus]

www.thecorporation.com

I think you are referring to this documentary that shows that corporations would be considered psychopaths if they were real people.

Re:Nothing will happen

[jgostling]

Not all employees. Just those "who knowingly support an illegal action". If Suzy the receptionist, Bill the janitor and Jake the help-desk guy know nothing about the illegal actions they are clear.

Cheers!

Re:Nothing will happen

[Khyber]

If you want to be part of the company, you'd better damn well be prepared for any and ALL potential consequences. If you hold any shares, you'd better at least TRY to make your voice heard.

Re:Nothing will happen

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Corporations should face jailtime for any crime or activity that would result in a person being incarcerated.

Yep, they should totally shove those articles of incorporation into an 8x8 cell and let them rot!

Re:Nothing will happen

[drsmithy]

Not all employees. Just those "who knowingly support an illegal action". If Suzy the receptionist, Bill the janitor and Jake the help-desk guy know nothing about the illegal actions they are clear.

What if they don't know said actions are illegal ? It's highly unlikely any employee under the level of VP or so has a good enough understanding of corporate law to know whether or not something is illegal at a given point in time (and more than arguable that they should not need to - after all, knowing such things certainly isn't part of their job description).

Re:Nothing will happen

[jgostling]

Isn't that what courts are for?

Cheers!

Re:Nothing will happen

[Wolfier]

> but that is due to poor laws rather than any inherent problem.

What if the corporations themselves have a hand in making the laws poor in the first place?

IMHO, that would make it an inherent problem. At least I think if corporations are stripped the right to making any political contributions or donations, we'd end up with better laws.

Another way around it, is to make all political contributions anonymous, such that there is no way the receiver would know who donated to them, and for what reason.

Re:Nothing will happen

[LainTouko]

If the possibility if Microsoft "going offline" existed, people wouldn't become so dependent on the continual co-operation of one individual entity in the first place.

Re:Nothing will happen

[c6gunner]

Presumably, "product or service" means "type of product or service".

There should be no presumptions in a definition. If you have to presume something other than the literal words which are written into it, then the definition sucks, and needs to be changed. Which, in case you missed it, was the only point I was trying to make. The fact that Microsoft wouldn't fit under the "monopoly" label even under your changed definition is a completely separate matter.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Anonymous Coward]

> Corporations should face jailtime for any crime or activity that would result
> in a person being incarcerated.

This is a civil lawsuit. Individuals who lose civil lawsuits are not incarcerated. They are ordered to pay compensation just as corporations are.

> This to me would be the proper treatment of "corporations have the same
> rights as real individuals."

Corporations do not have the same rights as natural persons in the USA.

> A good alternative might be to keep the limited liability nature of a
> corporation for any failures or accidents, but to remove it and allow for
> personally prosecuting and imprisoning any and all members of upper
> management who knowingly support an illegal action wherever intent can be
> proven.

That is already the law in the USA.

yes, corporations are protected under the 13th ammendment. they are people.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Martin Blank]

There's an enormous difference between failing and suddenly ceasing to exist. When there's failure, it's generally due to a lack of business sense and a visible decrease in revenues, the end results of which can be seen some distance out. Jobs are generally shed more or less gradually, not all in one shot.

This doesn't always work in practice. There are occasional situations where things simply halt. I've seen a situation like that before, where a large contracting company that worked for Disney simply ceased operations over a weekend. Disney did not hire the workers on, nor did they ask any of the other contracting companies (my employer included) to do so. They simply did without, spreading the existing staff to cover the gap for a time until a new contractor could be brought in with almost completely new staff.

It's ugly no matter what happens, but you're calling for the imposition of penalties on dozens, hundreds, or thousands of people who had nothing to do with the illegal activities, and that's the wrong thing to be doing.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Ironsides]

For a lot of things, why would the receptionist, janitor or help-desk need to know corporate law? Most times, the laws being broken are criminal law, not corporate law. Illegal dumping isn't something you need to be a VP to know is illegal. The same with writing the wrong date on a memo or order.

Re:Nothing will happen

[soupforare]

In what way does Microsoft impede new computer technology?

Netbooks are the first thing that comes to mind for me. They're basically dictating specs to the mainstream OEMs.
We don't have dual core atoms or screens of sane resolutions because the current extended XP license doesn't allow it.

Re:Nothing will happen

[v1]

agree. and really if you think about it, if you have a monopoly, you're probably raking in basketfuls of money, so if you can "do not evil" and cut your pure profits from 30% to 25%, (and be a "benevolent monopoly") everyone is happy. (except the freaks that consider any monopoly to be evil, but trying to please them is just plain a waste of time)

The only problem is when the board or majority shareholders would rather net that 5% by "any means necessary". Which does tend to happen with large companies like M$.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Sj0]

Not too many natural people with immortality.

Re:Nothing will happen

[Sj0]

Go buy a PC without windows installed.

Oh, it's virtually impossible? Only one or two choices among thousands?

Guess why? Because Microsoft has a monopoly on operating systems such that they an dictate to oems that they'll put windows on every PC.

It's been a bit better since the court case, but that only shows they were a monopoly -- and an abusive one at that -- in the first place.

Amusing name

[Anonymous Coward]

The naming scheme of this add-on somehow reminds me of how certain countries like to add attributes such as "people's" and "democratic" to their official state designations...

Re:Amusing name

[jimshatt]

..or "Open" to their file formats.
Usually less amusing to those countries' citizens, though...

Re:Amusing name

[Xaositecte]

When I was in the military, the most prominent college available on base (stationed overseas) was called "The University of Maryland University College"

It's as much of a university as, say, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is democratic.

Re:Amusing name

[VValdo]

The naming scheme of this add-on somehow reminds me of how certain countries like to add attributes such as "people's" and "democratic" to their official state designations...

I've always looked at it as a slur against the Writer's Guild of America.

W

Re:Amusing name

[Anonymous Coward]

UMUC is an official part of the University of Maryland system, it is accredited, and it grants degrees. It's not a university on it's own, and I know nothing about the quality of a UMUC education, but it is part of the university system.

Re:Amusing name

[commodore64_love]

???. Maryland does have a State University, and that was a branch of the overall system. I don't see the problem. It's no different than attending the Penn State University near tiny Uniontown PA. The branch is only 2 years long, but it's still divided into multiple colleges that are run from the central campus, and students join that main campus to finish years 3 and 4.

Re:Amusing name

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoosh

Re:Amusing name

[INT_QRK]

Wow. Where did this off the wall non sequitur observation come from? Did a professor hurt your feelings somehow? Did they fail you? UMUC is part of the University of Maryland System. It is accredited. You are an idiot.

Re:Amusing name

[Anonymous Coward]

The University of Maryland has multiple campuses throughout the state, and some excellent Computer Science research has come out of it, in the field of spatial data structures.

Re:Amusing name

[c6gunner]

Just curious, why did you join the military?

I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but what the hell: No, you're not curious, you're just looking for an excuse to spew your gormless opinion about US foreign policy, and phrasing it in the form of a question to mask your intentions. So STFU.

And I swear, the next person who tells me that I just replied to an AC is getting coal for Christmas. You're not funny or clever, you're just annoying, as were the 50 guys who did it before you. I've got pull with the Big Guy, so watch it.

Re:Amusing name

[Bigjeff5]

Well hey, at least they aren't the Film Actor's Guild.

Re:Amusing name

[Anonymous Coward]

I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but what the hell: No, you're not curious, you're just looking for an excuse to spew your gormless opinion about US foreign policy, and phrasing it in the form of a question to mask your intentions. So STFU.

I think I know better than you do what my intentions were. You wanna dispute that, good luck to ya. I need no excuse to make any statement, I say what I feel like saying when I feel like saying it. That you wanna get all pissy about it doesn't change a thing. It so happens that the military and the beliefs that motivate someone to join it didn't cross my mind until someone else brought it up. Feel free to ignore any post containing opinions you find offensive. That sure beats trying to tell me what I should say and when I should say it.

Now, the reality is that there is a difference between seeing a foreign army invade your country and defending your country, versus fighting an aggressive and offensive (as in opposite of defensive) pre-emptive war against a nation that is no threat to you for reasons that were demonstrated to be invalid. Military service is a very serious commitment, not to be made lightly. Some of us consider these things before we jump in and make that commitment, and want to understand why they were not obstacles for others who have made that commitment, whether or not it offends you.

Re:Amusing name

[Trogre]

So, uh, why not just change your sig?

Do I still qualify for some coal? It's getting a little chilly in here.

Re:Amusing name

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing is that a lot of people are considering joining the military who haven't. Why? No jobs, and student loans are coming due with no way to pay them. Any employers who are recovering are going to offshore until they can't anymore, then bring in people with no experience because they are cheaper and easier to manage.

There are people out there who might have had careers, but there is just plain no work available. So, in order to at least contribute something and not sit idle with a family to feed, they have to go to the recruiter.

The Army knows this. This is why you will be damn lucky to get any MOS other than 11X these days if you join.

Re:Amusing name

[Xaositecte]

Remember back in high school, where you could sleep through class and still get an 'A' because the courses were so easy all you had to do was be conscious for the tests?

That describes your average UMUC class.

I've been in 'real' school on the G.I. bill for about a year now, and the change in quality of education and difficulty of classes is very noticeable.

Re:Amusing name

[Xaositecte]

G.I. Bill mostly.

Came from a relatively poor family; not poverty stricken, but poor enough that if I wanted to go to college, I'd have to pay for it myself. Dicked around too much in High School to qualify for a full ride scholarship, being in debt 'till I'm 30 didn't appeal to me, so the military it was.

I was smart enough to do my research, spent four years in an Air Force Communications job, spent my time in the desert chilling in a concrete bunker for 12 hours a day, and came out with the next four years of my life paid for.

I'm well aware most military actions are wasteful bullshit, the war in Iraq is all about war profiteering, and Afghanistan was only barely justified when we went in, to say nothing of these days. I just don't care.

Re:Amusing name

[Xaositecte]

The University of Maryland != the University of Maryland University College.

UMUC has an administrative campus in Maryland itself, and satellite campuses on military bases all around the world (Germany, Japan, Iraq, Afghanistan, probably even more) - they provide educational opportunities to servicemen who would otherwise have none, but they're about on par with a community college as far as academics are concerned.

Re:Amusing name

[c6gunner]

So, uh, why not just change your sig?

Because "I rarely respond to Anonymous Cowards" just doesn't pack the same punch.

Do I still qualify for some coal? It's getting a little chilly in here.

Just for that, you're getting ice-cubes.

Re:Amusing name

[Anonymous Coward]

As a student at your non-university, I would like to invite you to lick my nuts.

Re:Amusing name

[Anonymous Coward]

It takes a respectable man to give an honest answer like this. Thank you sir.

Re:Amusing name

[natehoy]

You just replied to an AC.

No, don't get me wrong, I don't want to make you mad. I live in Maine. It gets COLD up here. And I could use the coal. :)

Re:Amusing name

[INT_QRK]

Based on your broad, sweeping indictment of an entire institution based evidently on some smidgin of exposure, I hereby declare you a fucking idiot.

Re:Amusing name

[dcw3]

When I was in the military, the most prominent college available on base (stationed overseas) was called "The University of Maryland University College"

It's as much of a university as, say, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is democratic.

As a CS grad from UM ('91), I can say that the program I went through was every bit as rigorous as the majority of other state schools I've seen. I've personally investigated schools from Delaware, Penn State, UVA, George Mason, VA Tech, UNC, and U of SC...all in preparation for my kid, now a freshman, starting her own adventure. Maryland did offer degrees in Computer Studies, and Information Systems Mgmt., both of which I considered relatively useless, but school is what you make of it. My experience was obviously different from yours, so I'm curious what program you were in.

Re:Amusing name

[Sj0]

I've got pull with the Big Guy, so watch it.

You liberated God?

What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[girlintraining]

It's not Spyware. You agreed to install it. "This agreement may be modified at any time without notice to you and you agree to be bound by its terms. Suck it. Sincerely, Your EULA." As to it phoning home every day, well duh. But what did you expect?

This is Microsoft's official position, afterall -- You're all a bunch of filthy criminals. You can't be trusted. That's why we hide everything in hidden dialog boxes and pop up a dozen warnings in order to delete Internet Explorer from the desktop. You're too stupid to even understand what "delete" means, so we're going to go out on a limb and guess you're pretty trusting of anything that says WARNING! CAUTION! ARE YOU SURE? REALLY? HONESTLY? We're not convinced. Action cancelled. Don't you want to buy an upgrade every year? We want to move to a licensing model that sends us cash yearly. Don't you want to support American business? I mean, what if the Iranians develop an operating system! When you don't install WGA, you're supporting terrorism.

To sign away your rights, click next.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Darkness404]

And if you want Red Hat without the paid support, just get Cent OS. (http://www.centos.org/) about the only way I know to get Windows for free is with less than legal methods (http://thepiratebay.org/). So if you don't need the support, there are other options.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[hedwards]

The problem is that, if I'm remembering correctly, is that they don't really give you a choice in the matter. Basically use our WGA or don't get our patches. If I'm remembering correctly, refusing to use the WGA would make it impossible to use the Microsoft update to properly keep things up to date. I can't recall specifically whether that included security patches or not.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[gavron]

You got what you paid for. Red Hat gave you what they promised to give you.

Good luck getting that from microsoft.

Then you wanted support AFTER your contract expired. You got none. That's expected.

This is not the "whine about Red Hat when you don't want to pay for their service" topic.
It's "Microsoft WGA is spyware."

Hijack another topic please. Not on slashdot.

E

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[mysidia]

There are a variety of ways to get Windows for 'free' from MS. Most people can't take advantage of them, but there are some copies of Windows that MS gives away for free.

Namely various giveaways... uh, students/teachers at some schools may get the OS through MSDNAA, for educational purposes, subject to some restrictions.

Windows is also bundled with most new computer systems.. the cost is built-in... Even if you want Linux, BSD, or FreeDOS, you pay the windows tax.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[mysidia]

You can pass WGA validation without installing the WGA notification service update.

You can also avoid installing or validating using WGA ever, as long as you only use automatic updates to pull critical updates.

You won't be able to go to the windowsupdate site manually, or download WGA-protected downloads without doing a WGA validation, however

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[0123456]

You can also avoid installing or validating using WGA ever, as long as you only use automatic updates to pull critical updates.

How can you avoid installing WGA by using automatic updated to pull critical updates... when Microsoft push WGA on you as a 'critical update'?

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Volante3192]

It's not Spyware. You agreed to install it.

And if you agree to install AntiVirus Pro 2009 it doesn't count as spyware either?

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Darkness404]

Windows is also bundled with most new computer systems.. the cost is built-in... Even if you want Linux, BSD, or FreeDOS, you pay the windows tax.

There are many computer retailers who discount the price so you don't pay the windows tax if you get a Linux or other system (Dell does this, and other OEMs do too).

And to be perfectly honest saying you can get it for free with giveaways and such is like saying that PS3s are free because you can win them in a contest.

Most people can't take advantage of them

which still doesn't mean that its really any more free.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[eqisow]

Select "Notify Only" or "Download but don't install" and then manually select which updates to install.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Anonymous Coward]

uhm....i'm quite sure if you read the MS EULA you will find that you ALSO DO NOT own the software but are purchasing a license to use said software. stop perpetuating the FUD.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a variety of ways... Most people can take advantage of them

(90x3) x W (# flavors) = free for long time.

There, fixed that for ya.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[nurb432]

Just because you agreed doesn't negate it being spyware.

And from what i gather the issue is that its doing things that are NOT in the eula.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Anonymous Coward]

Red Hat does give away all their updates for free though. They're in source packages and aren't integrated with their update manager once your support expires, but if you use CentOS, you can get it all for free, legally.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know how your post is considered insightful. Honestly. I couldn't care less about any OS or cost structure so long as the job I want gets done.

Apparently, you are the only one who doesn't know why your post is insightless and off topic. And if you couldn't care less about the cost structure, quit your whining.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Mistakill]

Bad luck for MS, a EULA isnt binding where i am

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[mysidia]

There are many computer retailers who discount the price so you don't pay the windows tax if you get a Linux or other system (Dell does this, and other OEMs do too).

And (unless you are buying a Netbook/non-PC that utilizes special hardware) their products are usually more expensive than equivalent ones from other retailers that have Windows preinstalled.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Anonymous Coward]

Go to the launch events all over the country for MS products, they give out everything there...

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Blakey Rat]

if I'm remembering correctly,

If I'm remembering correctly,

I can't recall specifically

Why don't you look up the answer and get back to us, Mr. Memory?

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Darkness404]

However, a Dell Linux system is about $50 cheaper than a non-Linux system (see http://www.techspot.com/news/25432-linux-discount-on-dell-machines-about-50.html). While you could argue that there are more low-end and therefore cheaper Windows systems out there, (hard to beat a $300 Toshiba 15 inch laptop, new, even with Vista installed), but aside from third-parties taking systems from OEMs, rebranding them and installing Linux (undoubtedly more expensive due to the middleman) OEMs offering Linux are generally cheaper than the same systems with Windows.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Jared555]

The EULA was probably updated in another critical update

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[DigiShaman]

And if you agree to install AntiVirus Pro 2009 it doesn't count as spyware either?

That's no spyware as it's far worse! It's a master control program that floods your computer with viri from other unknown sources. Pure evil!

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Minwee]

At 12-months-plus-one-second all of a sudden my Red Hat updates stopped working.

Really? You were unable to download new RPMs and install them because your support was cut off? That's horrible. That's a serious bug. And --

Oh, really? I see. That's not what you were talking about. You wanted RedHat to continue to monitor your system and provide you with instant fixes through their premium update channel, which you had paid for, even after you stopped paying for it. So now you're upset that you have to wait for official releases like the rest of the plebes.

Give MS a break. At least you can buy the OS, instead of leasing it.

You really might want to read thosee licenses you keep agreeing to some time. You're not _buying_ jack.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[mysidia]

The Dell ubuntu section is very sparse.

The hardware available is definitely not the same as the massive selection that is available with windows pre-installed.

It may be cheaper.. but you really pay because the hardware is cheaper too...

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Huwawa]

Bad luck for MS, a EULA isnt binding where i am

Where is that?

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[c6gunner]

Red Hat gave you what they promised to give you.

Good luck getting that from microsoft.

Microsoft always gives you exactly what they promised to give you. If you're the one exception in the entire world, feel free to sue them. Oh, and please let me know exactly how they failed to deliver on which promise - I'm quite curious. Thanks.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mr. Memory, is that what they're calling Mr. Gonzales these days?

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bad luck for MS, a EULA isnt binding where i am

Where is that?

Everywhere.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sigh. Rights? Really? RIGHTS?

Are also so insulted by guardrails on the highway which just say to you "you're a filthy bad driver" and sneeze guards on salad bars that say "you're a careless snotty"? Does the fact that your bank has a security guard personally insult you? NO? then why the FUCK are you so incensed by the fact that the software that you presumably licensed has effective and reasonable modern controls that attempt to minimize the number of unauthorized users. Is that really such a blow to your colossal sense of self-entitlement?

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Attila Dimedici]

I was merely pointing out that MS does not in fact want people to pay money for the OS every year, .

I am sorry that is not correct. I remember several articles from the 90s talking about MS trying to figure out how they could change the model from selling the OS license to one where people and businesses pay a licensing fee every year (with quotes from high level MS management supporting the premise of the article).
Now, MS has been unable to make that change, but they want to.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[causality]

Red Hat gave you what they promised to give you.

Good luck getting that from microsoft.

Microsoft always gives you exactly what they promised to give you. If you're the one exception in the entire world, feel free to sue them. Oh, and please let me know exactly how they failed to deliver on which promise - I'm quite curious. Thanks.

Perhaps it's not technically a "promise" but calling WGA a "security update" is pretty damned close. I mean, a user who sees "security update" is going to think "if I don't install this, then I will be vulnerable to malware" and that just wasn't the case here. Yeah, I suppose it would be cute to say "but WGA is for Microsoft's security!" but that still doesn't negate the fact that all the other security updates really were bugfixes to the OS. Microsoft knows damned well that if they called it "Phone-home software" or "Software to make you prove to us that you didn't pirate Windows" then far fewer users would have accepted it. The message here is quite clear - "we will mislead you whenever it's in our interests to do so."

I personally don't care for Windows, but even if I liked it very much, seeing this kind of shit would make me disinclined to use it because using Windows would mean having to deal with Microsoft and would mean having to support them with my money. However, the average person doesn't give a damn and they know it, so these practices continue.

I think otherwise the complaint of MS not delivering what they promise has more to do with standard marketing language that most companies use. For example, they often claim their software is "so easy to use!" but if that's the case, why are there so many books written and courses taught and Web sites devoted to helping users with basic everyday usage of their software? Why do average users tend to be so ignorant about basic care and maintainence of their Windows machines, not to mention security issues?

Now that's not really uncommon in marketing, unfortunately. When a toothpaste company says "4 out of 5 dentists recommend our product!" they don't specify whether they offered those four dentists thousands of dollars to say so. If another five dentists had unanimously recommended a competitor's product, they would omit that from their commercials. To me, Microsoft's marketing exaggerations are in the same ballpark, but that still doesn't make them right.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[binaryseraph]

AntiVirus Pro 2009 is awesome, though I just upgraded to Antivirus 2010 (well it did automatically). You should see all the viruses it finds!

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Anonymous Coward]

My favourite method is to be a student of a half way decent school.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-ca/academic/default.aspx

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was merely pointing out that MS does not in fact want people to pay money for the OS every year, whereas at least some other vendors do.

So what? A different business scheme. Rat Hat, Canonical, etc. give their OS out for free, so they dwell on support. If you don't need the support, don't lease it, just take the free OS.

Microsoft gives out the OS for a fee, so it dwells on license fees. If you don't need the OS, don't buy the license, just use another OS.

No, you did not point out something about buying versus renting OSs, since--as a user--you can't buy nor rent neither Windows nor Linux. You just confused the OS with its license (Microsoft) or with support (Linux companies).

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[wiredlogic]

I've never allowed WGA to be installed. I still get all updates. You have to be on your toes and scan through all updates because they like to sneak it in from time to time even though you've refused it before. They tried to do that when SP3 was rolled out. Obviously, anyone using automatic updates is already hosed.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm convinced that Microsoft has paid people to propagate lies on messages boards. Microsoft has released propaganda saying something to this effect officially too. The same goes with MS Windows 7. Why is all of a sudden that it got soo many great reviews? I know Vista did too initially.. but what I can't understand is how real people on message boards who have used it would rave about it. MS Windows 7 is still based on the same crap that is Vista. It still has DRM, a shitty user interface (kind of like MS Windows 95 and all everything since... but worse), and so on. The things people hated about Vista are still around in MS Windows 7. Sure- Microsoft cut additional "features" to make it "slim"- but overall it is the same OS. It's just Vista v2. We all know Microsoft doesn't get it right until the third version so how can MS Windows 7 really be all that great? I'm not usually a conspiracy nut- but honestly. Do you really believe MS Windows 7 is better? Vista and MS Windows 7 still don't work with older hardware or software. Sure- some stuff might work better. Overall it still fails though.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[zoney_ie]

You have to install WGA for later updates, but you do *not* have to install the "WGA notifications" (although it is listed as critical update) which is the tool that among other things pops up incessently if it thinks your copy of Windows isn't legit (and it did this to many legit copies). I presume it is WGA notifier that "phones home". Afaik, WGA itself once installed is only used when called upon (e.g. when visiting Windows Update site).

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Anonymous Coward]

The nest time someone does this in my home or on my computer I tell you what i think of them.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[ais523]

Doesn't most spyware also have an EULA that says you agree to everything it does? Is it equally legitimate? (I suspect the proportion of people who read spyware EULAs is similar to the proportion of people who read Microsoft's.)

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Anonymous Coward]

Alberto Gonzalez, is that you?

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[PMBjornerud]

You can pass WGA validation without installing the WGA notification service update.

You can also avoid installing or validating using WGA ever, as long as you only use automatic updates to pull critical updates.

You won't be able to go to the windowsupdate site manually, or download WGA-protected downloads without doing a WGA validation, however

You also cannot click "custom" without getting an error message about having to install WGA. This makes it very hard to know if you have an "optional" but very useful and much wanted hardware driver update or not.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is Microsoft's official position, afterall -- You're all a bunch of filthy criminals. You can't be trusted.

Maybe Microsoft would ease up on things like WGA if more people would be honest enough to pay for the software they're using. The cheap-ass SUPER1337HAXORYAAAARPIRATES fuck things up for the decent people.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[TheRaven64]

I have free copies of NT 4 and XP. I don't mean bought with a new computer; they're original disks with valid CD keys that can be installed on any machine. MS hand them out like candy at various events. I ran NT4 for years as my main OS - I'd probably have switched to something better a few years earlier if I'd had to use the 9x series. Apparently there's also a Vista VM image that you can download from MS for compatibility testing, but I've not felt the need to run Vista.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[jim_v2000]

Wow. overreact much?

It's not without it's uses. My brother-in-law bought a few "really cheap" copies of XP over the internet and it turned out they were pirated (imagine that). God knows what nasty-ware may have been added to the installation.

Microsoft is not wrong in calling pirated software a security risk. You don't know what else you might be installing, what backdoors it might have open, and who it might be sending data to. The only way to be sure that there's no malware on your OS is to get it from the source. The funny thing is that Linux fans will even do MD5 hash checks on their downloads to make sure that it's legit...but a little app from MS that attempts to do something similar that gets slammed.

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[jim_v2000]

"You wanted RedHat to continue to monitor your system and provide you with instant fixes through their premium update channel, which you had paid for, even after you stopped paying for it."

You mean like how Microsoft does through Windows Update after you buy the OS the one time? For 12 years after the OS is released? (XP 2002-2014)

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[jim_v2000]

What is that a problem?

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Anonymous Coward]

So then WGA should be a part of the Windows update service, and not be the default. Instead all Windows boxes should have auto-update turned off and WGA absent, until the user so chooses to install the Windows update program.

I mean, it's not like there's any problem with letting end users manually start updating right?

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[c6gunner]

Perhaps it's not technically a "promise" but calling WGA a "security update" is pretty damned close. I mean, a user who sees "security update" is going to think "if I don't install this, then I will be vulnerable to malware" and that just wasn't the case here.

Just to play devils advocate - having a pirated OS could definitely make you vulnerable to malware. What's to stop someone from taking a disc image of XP, using a program like nLite to package whatever malware he wants into it (or just modifying system files directly), and then uploading a torrent to TPB? If you had someone install the OS for you, you have no idea where he got it from or what kind of crap came with it. Any time you install pirated software, you put yourself at the mercy of whoever made it available to you.

Now, granted, MS most likely created WGA for completely different reasons. However, they're not lying and they're not even misleading people - they're just not listing ALL of their reasons for wanting you to install the "update".

Re:What did you think it was, a fluffy bunny?

[Anonymous Coward]

if I'm remembering correctly,

If I'm remembering correctly,

I can't recall specifically

Why don't you look up the answer and get back to us, Mr. Memory?

And the author somehow gets "Score:5, Informative."

I've tried to tell people about this sort of thing

[palegray.net]

I'll admit that I don't use Windows anymore. These days I use an iMac and a MacBook Pro for most of my desktop computing, and I almost exclusively deploy Debian on servers. That said, I've been along for the ride with respect to Microsoft products for a very long time, both as a user and an I.T. professional deploying systems on customer networks and writing I.T. policies.

Honestly, most consumers get that "deer in the headlights" look when you try to explain what WGA and similar systems actually do. In many cases, people simply don't care what's being sent to Microsoft, as there's a sense of implicit trust in large corporations. I have no idea where this trust comes from, but it's definitely real. I assume it's largely because the majority of users are largely ignorant of how their systems function, choosing to focus only on what's immediately presented by the OS (applications). There's no psychology degree on my wall, so I'm not qualified to guess further on the topic.

This continuous erosion of privacy gets noticed in the I.T. world, but the general public remains almost completely in the dark. Major media outlets don't carry headline stories about these issues, possibly because their "tech journalists" are barely more educated than their readership on these topics. I have no idea how this can be fixed, but I'd love to hear some suggestions.

Remove WGA

[Wowsers]

I was successfully able to remove WinXP's WGA from my system.... I installed Linux.

No more sales for Microsoft, and no more nagging from software thinking I've got a pirate copy of something just because I upgraded some hardware.

Re:Remove WGA

[NervousNerd]

These days you'll have to deal with the Linux Genuine Advantage.

Re:Remove WGA

[hannson]

Yes, but there is a crack for it on TPB.

Re:Remove WGA

[c6gunner]

There are no seeders :(

Re:Remove WGA

[lord_rob the only on]

Seriously, to remove WGA you can use Windows restore points to go back to where you were before installing those "so important" security updates. You can still install SP3 as a standalone version.. Then disable automatic installation of updates and you are done with this WGA crap.

Microsoft is an abuse company...

[Anonymous Coward]

...that also makes software.

Posted as AC to prevent karma whore allegations

Re:I've tried to tell people about this sort of th

[Anonymous Coward]

Kill everyone and start again?

Another entry in the Drinking Game!

[David Gerard]

The Windows 7 drinking game so far includes:

* One shot for every "ethnic" face in an install graphic.
* An extra shot if it's pasted over the head of a white person.
* One shot for every white face pasted over the head of a non-white person.
* One shot for every program with the Office 2007 "ribbon" toolbar stuck on it completely inappropriately.
* One shot for every exciting "new" feature that's been in Mac OS and Linux for the past five years.
* An extra shot if the exciting "new" feature's been in Mac OS and Linux for the past ten years.
* One shot every time you reboot during the install.
* One shot every time the system asks to reboot just because it feels like it.
* Two shots every time it reboots even though you said "no."
* Drain the bottle if there's an actual feature that makes Windows 7 so much better than sticking with XP that you'll spend actual money to get it.
* Spitting your mouthful and cursing when Windows Genuine Advantage decides your full-price copy is actually a bootleg.
* A bitter mouthful every time the system blue-screens.

Re:Another entry in the Drinking Game!

[StuartHankins]

greeeattt gam i plyd it just now wheeee!!

Re:Another entry in the Drinking Game!

[Anonymous Coward]

* One shot for every white face pasted over the head of a non-white person.

MJ, is that you?

Re:Another entry in the Drinking Game!

[ceoyoyo]

That would make installing Windows more pleasant. Sort of like how a shot of whisky makes having your leg amputated more pleasant.

Re:Another entry in the Drinking Game!

[malus314]

So....
How many people are going to die from alcohol poisoning while playing this game?
My money is on 100% of everyone who plays.

Re:Another entry in the Drinking Game!

[gbarules2999]

* One shot for every five minutes the installer stays on one percentage point without moving.
* A quarter of a shot for every transparency effect you see (you'd kill yourself if it were any higher)
* One shot for every piece of hardware that still doesn't have a Vista/Win7 driver yet. Make that two. You're going to need it.
* Shaking the bottle angrily at the screen every time it suggests verifying your copy of Windows 7 before your Wi-Fi isn't set up yet.

Re:Another entry in the Drinking Game!

[David Gerard]

Added!

wga has yet to be cracked

[Anonymous Coward]

MS may have its issues, but to date no WGA crack has any persistance past a few weeks, much less past a service pack.

Looks like the pirates are losing this battle, and MS knows it. Office 2010 will have the same activation and no VLKs.

Re:wga has yet to be cracked

[Darkness404]

So? That doesn't stop it from being all over TPB. Just because WGA isn't cracked yet doesn't mean that you can't still pirate Windows.

Re:wga has yet to be cracked

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh... you just unregister LegitCheckControl.dll (regsvr32 /u) and replace your winlogin.exe with a patched version.

I feel like I stepped backwards in time a few years posting this comment.

Re:wga has yet to be cracked

[Anonymous Coward]

Several WGA cracks *do* work. I haven't been nagged since I cracked mine, and I've been updating fine ever since.

Re:wga has yet to be cracked

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually the Vista Loader 3.0.0.1 activation crack (BIOS emulation & crack) works and is persistent, and WGA always finds that the system is genuine despite it being unlicensed. This is on a system from a major OEM using a burned copy of one of the same OEM's Vista install DVDs (I think original Vista, pre SP1) and no authorized license key. The system is fully up to date with SP2 and subsequent patches, all via Windows Update, with additional MS software installed by the same process after WGA checks were passed. It's a system which has been installed for many months and which gets its updates every patch tuesday, followed by a run of the latest Windows Defender which accompanies them.

WGA is most definitely cracked.

Re:wga has yet to be cracked

[Anonymous Coward]

you are fucking retarded. wga is and has been cracked just fine.

Re:wga has yet to be cracked

[Anonymous Coward]

WGA was cracked in the past, but so was FairPlay, DirecTV's encoding, and Blu-Ray.

All four have long since patched and there has yet to be a working crack for any of them. Windows 7 RTM had the serial numbers for a no activation crack yanked before the packages were on MSDN, much less floating around free.

Re:wga has yet to be cracked

[Inda]

Don't feed the trolls.

winlogin.exe (?) was patched years back and people have no problem patching, I mean replacing WGA with a better version.

Re:wga has yet to be cracked

[Anonymous Coward]

I give it six months.

My experience with WGA

[NoYob]

For a few years, I manually did updates of my XP system and I actually checked what packages were to be installed. I flagged the WGA to not install. No problem. Then with the rash of assholes writing malware for XP, I turned on automatic updates. One day, I decide to do some maintenance because even with 2GB of memory, I occasionally got the Windows is low in virtual memory warnings even though I was just running Thunderbird, Firefox, and maybe one other program.When I logged into the admin account, a message box shows up saying that I don't have WGA installed and that I should click "Here" to install it or I will keep getting these messages. I didn't. I never got the messages in my user account but only when I logged into my admin account. Interesting - huh? So, one day I relented, and installed WGA to see if in fact it would flag me - I got my XP Pro license through one of those college online programs and I was curious. I came out fine.

I haven't run wireshark to see what evil may lie in the heart of my XP machine - yet.

Re:I've tried to tell people about this sort of th

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell them that terrorists and pedophiles are using the information gathered, or that your browsing habits will affect this season's X Factor outcome..
 
Those topics usually get some attention.

Uninstalling by hand, anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

FTFS: "WGA's implementation also prevented users from purging the protection from their PCs without completely reformatting a computer's system drive."

Really? Have none of these people heard of removing a program by hand? It may not be comprehensive and may leave traces behind, but you can sure rip the operating guts out. Delete the executable, unregister the DLL and delete them. Bye-bye nagging.

At the same time, I don't know what changes are made once WGA flags a system as "non-genuine". That is not a simple fix. Though, if you find yourself in that situation, you should be able to handle the problem or deal with the consequences. Otherwise, use legit purchased software or use Linux (by far the better alternative).

Re:Uninstalling by hand, anyone?

[Ambiguous Puzuma]

Not necessarily. Ever tried to uninstall Outlook Express from Windows XP without following specific directions?
http://www.tweakxp.com/article37318.aspx
If you don't follow them, and just delete the files, they reappear after you reboot (if I remember right).

Re:Uninstalling by hand, anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

A built-in component like OE which has system functionality is quite different than a post-release add-on like WGA. The OE files are restored by the OS; the WGA ones aren't. I've done the removal multiple times.

So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[Rooked_One]

Look in your pocket... I'm betting you have a cell phone. That means if someone wants to know where you are, they can do so within around 200 meters. Your phone connects to a tower to "talk" - they know which numbers are connected to what towers at any time of the day. I would say microsoft is the least of your worries if you are a privacy advocate.

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[RobVB]

Following that logic, every issue that's not the most important issue is a non-issue. This way of thinking lets corporations chip away at our privacy "because those other guys are doing something worse", until there's nothing left to chip away.

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[0123456]

Look in your pocket... I'm betting you have a cell phone.

Nope, I just checked all my pockets, no phone there. You lose.

Your phone connects to a tower to "talk" - they know which numbers are connected to what towers at any time of the day.

A connection to a cell tower is required for a cell-phone to work. Sending random data back to Microsoft is not required for Windows to work. See the difference?

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[Ren Hoak]

I suspect you mean http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moot and not http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mute.

But I could be wrong, I am on a regular basis.

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[ozbird]

The point is mute when it falls on deaf ears.

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[Rooked_One]

being connected to the internet is not required for windows to work, and then you wouldn't have to worry about WGA. I think I started a tangent that made sense to me on the subject at the moment, but now I see that it was... wrong bat place, wrong bat time.

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[Rooked_One]

so - why aren't we interested in anonymity with our cell phones? Yes, I know its off topic, but thats the way you lead it.

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[Anonymous Coward]

haha, boy did you post this at the wrong site.

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[Bigjeff5]

Every cell phone sold in the US since 2000 has GPS built in that cannot truly be disabled. You can "disable" it, but what you're actually doing is requesting that the cell service not read your GPS data, the GPS chip in the phone still broadcasts.

Even if you turn it off, the cell company can, at any time, pull the GPS data off your phone. Generally the only time this will happen is if the Police request it.

I know this, because I work on the floor below a group of people employed by the local telecom company.

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[Bigjeff5]

Oh and it's "moot" not "mute". Mute means it is not capable of making a sound. Well, of course privacy is mute.

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[ceoyoyo]

I don't even have any pockets.

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[Trogre]

GPS, in cellphones, since 2000. Okay, what other gems do you have for us today?

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[Attila Dimedici]

So are you saying you can't hear this "privacy thing"? Or are you saying that it just doesn't "speak" to you?
I believe that you meant to say, "So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda moot"?

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[Trogre]

I have a theory, and it boils down to this:

Convenience. Plan and simple.

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[Entropius]

So why can't I, the user, access this data?

Seriously -- people have no doubt died that would have otherwise have lived if they had access to GPS with their cell phones. I've been lost in the mountains at night before (my fault, I know -- the trail was damaged by fire, and I missed a turn), and being able to get GPS data off of my phone would have been a hell of a lot easier than what I wound up doing to get out. I wasn't in any danger, but there are a lot of cases much worse than mine.

This sort of thing pisses me off -- people who design features into products and then intentionally disable them. Whatever happened to trying to design things that are the most useful for the least cost?

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[Qalthos]

And all I can find is this ring.

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[jim_v2000]

I hate how baseless comments like this get modded up simply for saying that "corporations are chipping away at out privacy". How is MS chipping away at your privacy with WGA?

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[Anonymous Coward]

A connection to a cell tower is required for a cell-phone to work. Sending random data back to Microsoft is not required for Windows to work. See the difference?

Well apparently sending the far from random data back to MS is required for windows to work. Where's the difference?

Re:So, the whole privacy thing to me is kinda mute

[Anonymous Coward]

I mix my remote conversations between encrypted IM and phone, admittedly using phone when it is more convenient. I would certainly prefer privacy for all of my communications, but getting a wireless IP connection would cost me $60/month (on top of a basic cell plan), which is simply not reasonable. My only real recourse is to try to keep my phone usage as boring as possible so the privacy concerns in someone seeing the data are limited.

Re:I've tried to tell people about this sort of th

[Anonymous Coward]

The risk posed by WGA is actually close to nil for most people. A risk is breaking a leg, loosing you mobile phone, you hair turning green. Having some data sent of to whoever isn't really an issue in most peoples lives. The issue is abstract and political, unless you care it't not there.

Go free market!

[RazorSharp]

Unfortunately Microsoft will probably win this because there's a difference between spyware and an abusive contract. To the best of my knowledge, abusive contracts are perfectly legal, which is why MS got over on IBM so bad. These license agreements which you click before using software have been legally upheld in court, so Microsoft may be doing something immoral, but it's still legal. The only thing that makes spyware illegal is that they bypass a contract and install without the user's permission.

I love to blame Microsoft as much as anyone here but I think this is a case where the lack of legislation is, in a legal sense, to blame. Companies have no legal obligation to behave ethically. I would love to see a law which prohibits these ridiculous lawyer-speak click-contracts. There has to be a better way to protect both the company and consumer.

It does sound as if their main case is that the WGA contract is misleading and dishonest, and if that's true, they may have a case. I wouldn't know because I've never read it and don't intend to. I don't use Windows.

Re:Go free market!

[multriha]

Abusive contracts are perfectly legal, just not always binding.

Great, but there's a few unfortunate details.

[Anonymous Coward]

Namely, even if you never used Windows on your machine, it likely still shipped with Windows, meaning you still paid the Microsoft tax, and you're still feeding into their massively abusive power complex. Just installing Linux is not an answer. Hell, they've used "Linux" as a justification to do this, as they have expertly turned "Linux Users" into "Pirates" in the minds of lawyers and judges with endless spin and false advertisement.

They need to be stopped from pulling this shit, permanently. With a legal solution. With a significant cash penalty. With actual consequences, and not aww-shucks US Justice Department antics.

Re:Great, but there's a few unfortunate details.

[Darkness404]

There are -many- systems that don't ship with Windows. Most netbooks offer Linux as an option and due to no Windows tax they are usually either cheaper or make up with it with better hardware than their Windows counterparts. While its still difficult to find a good Linux computer in a big-box retailer, they aren't exactly uncommon if you shop online.

Re:Great, but there's a few unfortunate details.

[Jussi K. Kojootti]

Most netbooks offer Linux as an option and due to no Windows tax they are usually either cheaper or make up with it with better hardware than their Windows counterparts.

Not even nearly true anymore. Microsoft freaked out about the linux netbook phenomenon and slashed the price of XP on netbooks. Combine that with the awfulness of the early netbook distros, and it was an easy decision for netbook manufacturers to go with Microsoft again.

I'm hopeful the netbook wars are starting again in six months or so but we'll have to see. In the meantime we just have to admit that Microsoft owns that market as well.

Re:Great, but there's a few unfortunate details.

[innocent_white_lamb]

it likely still shipped with Windows, meaning you still paid the Microsoft tax,
 
I have heard that most or maybe all of the "Microsoft tax" is covered by the junkware that the computer vendors include on their Windows install disks, so the amount that Windows adds to the price of a new computer is very close to zero.
 
I don't know if this is really the case, though, and I'm frankly rather suspicious of that. Does anyone know for sure?

can't speak for others...[microsoft tax]

[Anne Honime]

... but when I bought my computer, I asked for vista to be removed and the price refunded. Hoped from shop to shop until I found one that agreed (in fact I was ready for a trek, but the 3rd shop in the street was the good one). He got the deal, and I bought the refund worth of RAM to top of the computer capacity. I was pleased, and so was the seller.

My laptop is an Asus eeepc 900A linux 'edition'. Again, I carefully reviewed the options before buying.

Speak with your wallet.

Dude..

[msimm]

Just out of curiosity, was there a point to that story?

Re:Dude..

[IANAAC]

Just out of curiosity, was there a point to that story?

The penultimate sentence, I would imagine.

Re:Dude..

[NoYob]

Sure....nothing bad happened to my machine.

Now, let me tell you about the time I drove my Studabaker with my best girl. I wore an onion on my belt because that was the style back then, and Benny Goodman was all the rage, we'd go down and get ice cream on Coney Island, war was breaking out and...what were we talking about again?

Reasons to hate WGA

[rwwyatt]

WGA is like a body cavity search, but without the rubber glove

Re:Reasons to hate WGA

[93 Escort Wagon]

WGA is like a body cavity search, but without the rubber glove

... and what they're sticking in there isn't their hand.

Obligatory car analogy

[Nefarious Wheel]

I don't mind that my car has a license plate. I don't even mind having to register with the authorities or prove that the car is indeed my own. What really pisses me off is the cameras and systems that track where I'm going by using the information on that license plate, and tying it to my behaviour patterns.

I'm not a law breaker and I'm not paranoid*, I just don't want my behaviour modified by stealthy incursions into my privacy that could result in profiling and ultimately curtailing my choices in where I go, what I see and what I do. WGA is, I believe, just part of a trend that increasingly encourages powerful public institutions to think of people as objects, as statistics, and the effect of treating people as objects is the source of pretty much all I consider crime in the world.

(*I walked by a construction site the other day and the roofer told me that I wasn't paranoid - in morse code. Clever, aren't they?)

Re:Obligatory car analogy

[Anonymous Coward]

(*I walked by a construction site the other day and the roofer told me that I wasn't paranoid - in morse code. Clever, aren't they?)

Come now, cite poor for your joke at least =)

dunno if he was the originator but he sure repeated it often enough

Re:Obligatory car analogy

[daveime]

and the effect of treating people as objects is the source of pretty much all I consider crime in the world.

Granny Weatherwax, is that you ?

Re:Obligatory car analogy

[jgtg32a]

I find it amusing that the wiki says he has the funniest religious joke but doesn't actually have the joke in the article, I'll c/p it below its funny:

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"
Northern ConservativeâBaptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

Re:Obligatory car analogy

[jim_v2000]

I don't care what you "believe" WGA is...prove it or shut up.

Re:Obligatory car analogy

[Anonymous Coward]

and the effect of treating people as objects is the source of pretty much all I consider crime in the world.

I think that might just be the most insightful thing I've ever read on slashdot.

Most people can't take advantage of them...

[argent]

Most people can't take advantage of them

Nuff said.

I don't get why this is a problem

[rennerik]

With the high rate of Windows piracy, especially in markets such as China (where piracy rates are as high as 80%), Microsoft having WGA as a core part of their operating system makes sense. Legit users, of course, don't have to worry because Windows will never stop working for them (there are some exceptions, but those are typically solved quickly).

The issue may be privacy. According to the WGA FAQ and an analysis by Groklaw (2006), the following information is sent to Microsoft every time WGA "phones home":

• Windows product key
• PC manufacturer
• Operating System version
• PID/SID
• BIOS information (make, version, date)
• BIOS MD5 Checksum
• User locale (language setting for displaying Windows)
• System locale (language version of the operating system)
• Office product key (if validating Office)
• Hard drive serial number

It may be a tad bit disturbing to have all that information being broadcast, but some of it makes sense. Windows Activation is tied to a computer and its hardware, and what WGA is supposed to do is verify that the activation is legit, they'd (presumably) need to broadcast the same information to the WGA servers to verify that activation (since we all know activation can be faked/bypassed).

Microsoft also needs to create a disincentive for people who pirate their software. WGA, besides nagging the user that they have an illegal copy, also prevents optional and recommended updates from being installed, prevents Office users from downloading templates, and prevents the download of certain products/services that would be free to paying customers.

So why is "phoning home" okay? Why not do it once and be done with it? Every day crackers find ways to get around Windows' copy protection. As a developer, Microsoft needs to stay ahead of that and tailor their systems to counter-act innovation on the crackers' part. The opposite is also true: falsely-flagged copies need to be unflagged, or customers will suffer due to them being marked as a false positive. Either way, Microsoft has not kept this a secret, and even promised to reduce checking to once every two weeks (and that was way back in 2006).

I know a lot (probably most) of you guys on here will disagree with me, but I see this as a necessary evil that Microsoft has to perform, and if I were in their shoes, I'd go about it similarly (perhaps be a bit less intrusive). The fact of the matter is, WGA only negatively affects people who either pirated software, or were the victims of software piracy. The privacy argument, in my opinion, is a strawman. If you buy a PC from Dell, it's most likely they already have all that information (save for BIOS MD5 checksum, probably) linked to your customer account. If you buy a PC from Best Buy with a credit card, that purchase information is already linked with the product serial number, which is probably linked with all the serial numbers of the hardware that went into the thing. I don't see how this can be any different than that, other than the fact that Microsoft has it instead of Dell or Best Buy.

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[0123456]

Legit users, of course, don't have to worry because Windows will never stop working for them (there are some exceptions, but those are typically solved quickly)

I bet you also believe that 'if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear', right?

I don't give a flying monkey crap about Microsoft's profits; I care about my software randomly not working because some crappy 'validation' software decides that I'm a criminal. More than that, I care about the whole concept of being treated as a criminal until proven innocent by a company that I've paid money to for the product I'm using.

You may be happy to bend over for big corporate profits, but I'm increasingly fed up with this crap -- not just from Microsoft but from other companies who decide to prevent software I've purchased from running until I beg them to fix their god-damn piece of crap 'validation'/'activation'/DRM bullshit -- to the extent that I'm now doing my best to completely eliminate Windows and commercial software which contains this kind of shit from my home.

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[rennerik]

I bet you also believe that 'if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear', right?

No, I do not believe in that 100%. If Microsoft required me to provide my driver's license, SSN, and other such information to activate my copy of Windows, I'd be pissed off to no end.

This is different. They have your hardware serial numbers and your IP. They can't track you down without a court order anyway. In which case, *anyone* can track you down, given even just one of those: your IP.

You may be happy to bend over for big corporate profits, but I'm increasingly fed up with this crap -- not just from Microsoft but from other companies who decide to prevent software I've purchased from running until I beg them to fix their god-damn piece of crap 'validation'/'activation'/DRM bullshit

Fewer than 12,000 copies stopped working for less than 12 hours. And if you called for support, your problem was fixed.

More people are affected when EVE's servers go down because of an unforeseen problem. You're a paying customer there, too.

Shit happens. Stuff goes down. You know that, being in the computer industry.

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[pwizard2]

I see this as a necessary evil that Microsoft has to perform

No evil is necessary if it affects me. I personally have no interest in helping Microsoft protect their profit margins, so why should I (or anyone else who doesn't work for them) care if they lose money through piracy? It really isn't my problem. If they want me to care, they have to offer me something in return. I'm all for charity for people who deserve it, but those feelings don't apply to corporations who exist solely to make a profit have used methods of questionable legality to get where they are today. I don't partake in piracy, (My versions of Windows are legit OEM copies even though I barely use them anymore) but it's not my responsibility or in my best interests to help Microsoft (or any other company) stop the people who do.

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[Bent Mind]

According to the WGA FAQ [microsoft.com]

That was an interesting FAQ. I especially like this part:

Q: What happens when WGA Notifications communicates with Microsoft when a PC is booted up? A: The pilot version of this software periodically contacts Microsoft after validation; however, this feature has been removed from the final version of WGA Notifications.

That seems to contradict your statement:

So why is "phoning home" okay? Why not do it once and be done with it? ... Either way, Microsoft has not kept this a secret, and even promised to reduce checking to once every two weeks [zdnet.com]

If WGA does send information to Microsoft, even if it is only every two weeks, and their FAQ specifically says they do not, I'd say that is the very definition of spyware.

Of cource, Microsoft has their own definition of spyware:

Q: Some people are saying that WGA is spyware. Is this true? A: Broadly speaking, spyware is deceptive software that is installed on a userâ(TM)s computer without the user&#39s consent and has some malicious purpose. WGA is installed with the consent of the user and seeks only to notify the user if a proper license is not in place. If the user declines the EULA, WGA Notifications will not be installed on userâ(TM)s machine. Once installed, WGA Notifications becomes a permanent part of Windows XP software, and therefore cannot be uninstalled.

Let's see: spyware is deceptive software (check), installed on a userâ(TM)s computer without the userâ(TM)s consent (debatable, it is installed as a critical update via automatic updates. Microsoft strongly encourages the use of automatic updates to keep your system secure. If this were an optional update, I might buy that it is opt-in. Microsoft then tells you that the system will be crippled in small ways if you don't install it. There is no option to opt-out. Technically, it is opt-in, but only technically.) , and has some malicious purpose. (Depends on what you consider malicious. From Microsoft's point of view, it is not malicious. However, I'm sure that most spyware authors do not consider their software malicious.)

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[Anonymous Coward]

More people are affected when EVE's servers go down because of an unforeseen problem. You're a paying customer there, too.
Shit happens. Stuff goes down. You know that, being in the computer industry.

When EVE's servers go down, I expect EVE to go down - I'm playing on a network. I necessarily need to interact with other people via their server. Of course their server is unavailable if their server is unavailable.

When a WGA server goes down, Windows stops functioning as it should. It makes no sense at all that the functionality of Word should be dependent on the functionality of a network.

The difference is that EVE's is an outage affecting users of the service that went down. The fact that a WGA outage cripples computers is completely unnecessary - WGA validation is completely unrelated to my use of Word. And I don't buy the piracy argument either. Every other industry in the world has to deal with product shrinkage without violating the privacy of their consumers. My scanner doesn't OCR all the pages I scan and check them against a database of textbook contents, even though that might be how most textbook ebooks make it to the piratebay. Why does the software industry get a free pass?

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[Techman83]

Every time I've rebuilt someone's machine(usually a few upgrades as well), I read the S/N off the sticker on the side and plug it on in. Come time to finally log in, activate, fail, you have to call MS, read off some ridiculously long number, convince them that you are indeed installing it on the same computer you purchased it for, then input an even longer number (for the love of god, don't get one digit wrong..). I have wasted many hours of my life doing pointless activations, where as applying a WGA patch can be done in a minute.

Path of least resistance will win time and time again, which for me is Ubuntu/Arch/Debian/Suse/CentOS etc.

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[hot soldering iron]

I don't think that this is a problem for a completely different reason: The more abusive, intrusive, and creepy DRM gets forced on people, the more people will flock to the free alternatives (If they don't get shut down for "Software Patent Violations"). Dad and Mom may use Windows at work, but Jr. and Jane are using OSX, a Linux liveCD, or some other "L447" system to bypass the parental spyware, surf their pron, post some pron, torrent some warez to trade at school tomorrow, and generally talk shit on myspace and leave no trace on the box for Dad to find.

A simple liveCD thumbdrive made to anonymize your net cruising and bust through school firewalls without leaving evidence on the boxen would spread like wildfire. Call it "teh H4rDC0r3!", and make it look like some pimped and stoned out XP with Office,Chrome, some games, a pron theme, easy IM, script kiddie tools, and every kid in school will want it.

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[Anonymous Coward]

We in the computer industry are not happy with asking permission from some nebulous company to do things that we have been legally doing for a while. Specifically, the combination of the WGA and product activation embedding itself as an essential part of the OS is undermining our freedom to do with our computers what we wish. The fact that this authentication system uses hardware serial numbers means that we need to run every single hardware upgrade by Microsoft in order to keep our OS running. Maybe they don't object now, but I know that Windows XP will be EOL'd in a couple of years. I fully anticipate that, at best, computers running Windows XP will be locked into their hardware. Enough upgrades to your system and XP will require re-authentication. Of course, there will be no servers online to do that; you'll have to buy the latest OS to keep using your computer. Worse, there's the possibility that the next time Windows "phones home" it will act as a kill switch for the OS, no hardware upgrade necessary. Make all the promises you want, but if the power exists to abuse the system then your word is not enough to convince me; I've seen too many examples to the contrary to take a company at its word.

You mention that "stuff goes down" and anyone in the computer industry should accept it as fact. I do accept it as fact, but I also know that Microsoft did not have to implement this system. Despite your claims of mass piracy, Microsoft were not in a position where their entire business was being threatened. Plus, the areas with a high density of pirated Windows copies are basically dead markets. There's no way Microsoft could compete there. The real money is where people are willing to buy Windows XP, and we could have gone right along doing that without WGA or product activation. Microsoft retroactively made this authentication scheme an integral part of the OS. We did not choose it; we were extorted into accepting it to continue getting the security updates that we were entitled to get. Let's not forget that an unpatched computer is a tremendous security risk, so implementing this idea runs counter to the "security" argument that the WGA makes. Add to this the fact that the system had flaws that locked people out of their computers. No matter how few it affected or for how long, the fact that it happened at all is inexcusable given the circumstances of its introduction. It gave us a taste of the potential for abuse that this system has, not only on Microsoft's end but also from any hacker looking for a vulnerability to exploit.

The WGA represents a chipping away at our freedom to use a computer that we purchased. I can see that each successive OS release is driving that wedge in further, and I don't like it one bit. The simple fact is that by continuing along the Microsoft path as it stands now, we will all become renters of our own hardware, no longer owning what we lawfully purchased. You may not think that the average computer user cares all that much, but wait until they discover that their computer was arbitrarily zapped, and that their data is being held hostage by a company that wants them to cough up the money for an OS upgrade. Joe Random User just wants his computer to work, and when it doesn't work then he will need a computer guy to fix it. If Microsoft does what it looks like they want to do, then the first thing that the techie is going to say is "your computer didn't have to break, but Microsoft broke it so you would buy a new OS." Don't think that it won't happen. The tools for abuse are there, and it they are there then they will be abused.

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[Anonymous Coward]

In IT, one of the bigger reasons I saw that companies downgraded to XP from Vista wasn't the resource utilization of Vista. It was the fact that you had to have a KMS infrastructure and deal with re-activations every six months especially at a larger site that had 50 or more computers (the minimum required for KMS to work). With XP, you plunk in your VLK in the corporate image, and are done. Vista, you have to make sure each box either is able to connect to the KMS server for a temporary 6 month activation, burn up a key and activate the box against Microsoft's servers, or if on an airgapped network, call in and manually activate Windows over telephone.

The pirates will be finding a way to crack this. Yes, it may be harder than downloading a stolen VLK from a crack site, but stolen VLKs get zapped and reissued quite promptly. All this activation infrastructure does is make things harder for Microsoft's customers and users.

To boot, businesses are the least likely candidate for Windows/Office piracy. It just takes one disgruntled employee to send a notice to the BSA and they will be storming in there, then making an offer the company cannot refuse on a 5 digit basis minimum.

So, pirates are not affected, businesses who already are under the scrutiny of the BSA are double-whammied.

Microsoft just needs to change activation back to the XP days. WGA is fine so stolen corporate keys can be removed from use, but the whole activation system on the volume user level just needs to go.

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[nedlohs]

If you were dumb enough to buy a scanner designed and built by a text publisher it may very well do just that.

Surprise surprise when you buy an OS designed and built by Microsoft it has features that serve Microsoft's interest.

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[Richard_at_work]

And yet every time I have had to ring support for a failed activation (I think 3 times in over 150 installs), the phone call was 3 minutes long and they never questioned me on the legitimacy of the install. I've wasted more time tracking down failed dependencies in Linux distributions before.

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[Techman83]

I could say that for Windows drivers, if they worked at all! :) I would say that not everyone can afford supported hardware, but this applies to removing the bloated pre-load windows installs that Manufactures install and in my anecdotal experience for 2009, getting linux onto a machine requires far less work then chasing down 15 drivers, from 10 manufacturers, with a couple of "Unknown Devices" thrown into the mix. Can't recall the last time I had to search for a failed dependency on an install.

Back on topic, at the end of the day, The fact remains the same, it doesn't resolve copyright infringment issues, it just hassles legitimate customers.

Activations are not something I am looking forward to if we roll out Win 7, as 3/4 of our user base are off the network for months at a time and I believe it will require regular contact with servers. Disclaimer: Project isn't scheduled till 2010

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[daveime]

Well no, because like everything else, there is far more choice of software for installing on a Windows box than you can ever find for a Linux box.

I don't like DRM any more than the next guy, but all that means is that I install VLC Player on Windows, and I'm done. It doesn't mean I'm going to undergo some religious conversion, install Linux and burn my Windows CD on a ceremonial funeral pyre.

My Windows (Vista) box hapilly runs Apache, MySQL, Perl, PHP, VLC PLayer, and many other open and free stuff, as well as all my existing Office apps, games etc. My one foray this year into Linux was a trial install of Ubuntu, and I couldn't even get it to play nicely with my TV Tuner card after 12 hours of frustration.

It still isn't the year of the Linux Desktop, and pretending that DRM is the holy grail that will convert the masses to Linux is simply crazy.

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[Anonymous Coward]

You're missing the point. A) I know my copy is legitimate, so all of this "checking" is superfluous, eats up CPU time and memory, and is an unnecessary disclosure of information to Microsoft; B) it's one more point of failure in the system that is entirely unnecessary. It does not improve a single thing in the operating system for me, the user/customer (see A). Calling this an "advantage" is ridiculous; C) it does almost NOTHING to stop piracy, because it is easily circumventable.

It is a complete waste of time, and therefore it is the first thing I disable when I install/reinstall my copies of Windows XP on my systems. I've got X licenses running on X machines. Microsoft's attempts to guess whether a hardware modification is "legitimate" or not are error-prone and rely on remote servers that have from time to time failed. I know how many licenses I have and how many machines they are running on. I don't need WGA and Microsoft's servers to keep count.

"The opposite is also true: falsely-flagged copies need to be unflagged, or customers will suffer due to them being marked as a false positive"

See, as far as I'm concerned, if that happens even once then the system has failed and your entire argument falls apart. Because a non-WGA system would keep happily running without nagging the user or being disabled. Perhaps you think a mere nagging reminder is no big deal? To pick one example, it is a big deal if you're running a laptop at a conference and everyone's presentations get the nag messages popping up all the time.

WGA is a bad solution to a genuine problem. Any system is better without it. They should check once at install and leave it at that. I can tolerate that. They aren't going to win the arms race with the pirates, so they should stop inconveniencing all of their customers in their futile attempts.

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[jim_v2000]

Insightful? This is pure ranting bullshit.

"some crappy 'validation' software decides that I'm a criminal"

Not really relevant, but license agreement violations are civil matters.

"I care about the whole concept of being treated as a criminal"

How exactly is authentication "being treated as a criminal"? Do you get pissed off at every website that wants you to login (aka authenticate yourself)? The whole point is to figure out who you are so that they know you aren't "a criminal" and don't treat you as such. (Actually, "unauthorized user" is a better term than "criminal".) It's a hell of a lot easier to only let in legitimate users then to let in everyone and then figure out who to kick out.

"companies who decide to prevent software I've purchased from running until I beg them to fix their god-damn piece of crap 'validation'/'activation'/DRM bullshit"

I'm very curious as to what the heck you're trying to do with your computer where you're running into DRM issues all the time. I install all kinds of apps and games and never have run into a problem.

"to the extent that I'm now doing my best to completely eliminate Windows and commercial software which contains this kind of shit from my home."

God forbid that software authors try to make a buck off their work. They should just give it to us all for free! Like the FOSS projects! That's all good, but a lot of FOSS sucks ass. That's one of the reasons I came back to Windows after three years of fucking with Ubuntu and all the half-ass apps (when compared to commercial offerings) that required too much effort to be productive with. (Excluded from "half-ass apps" are the GIMP and OOo.)

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[jim_v2000]

I see your anecdotal evidence and raise you my own.

I installed Windows 7 on my 3 year old laptop and Windows Update automatically installed ALL of the drivers. When I installed Ubuntu on the same laptop, it took three days of Googling to figure out that the kernel driver for my wireless card was crap and I had to download and build some patched version off a website in Russian.

You can find tales of woe and angst about any OS.

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[hot soldering iron]

WHOOSH! Tongue in cheek comment, there. Mostly. Uhmmm, I didn't say it had to be Linux, did I? It could be Linux, BeOS, ReactOS, Menuet, a Hackintosh LiveCD, or ANYTHING that looks even kinda cool. This idea depends more on the UI, some easy VB-style tools, and an appeal to the natural counter-cultural tendencies of kids, than it does on any FOSS idealism.

And did you check to see if your tuner card was compatible with Ubuntu, first? It would've saved you some time. I've used Linux a couple of years now, and I still run into probs. My last upgrade I wrestled with video drivers for 3 weeks to get my NVidia card to work right again. I've never said "It's the year of the Linux Desktop!". That would be stupid. Linux is fine for me, not necessarily for you.

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[daveime]

And did you check to see if your tuner card was compatible with Ubuntu, first? It would've saved you some time

I shouldn't HAVE to !!! It's only 2 years old, and works fine under Windows. How old is linux ? regardless of distros and their little idiosyncracies, they all have the same core kernel and drivers right ? I don't think I've ever bought a product and then had to wait 2 years for the driver to be made available ... but that's what you have to accept if you choose the FOSS road. Maybe in the next kernel, maybe in the next distro ... who knows ?

If something works with product (a) out of the box, but with product (b) I have to go trawling around forums first, checking compatibility lists, hunting down possibly non-existent drivers from either the manufacturer of some third party hack, it's too much trouble.

I'm tired of this FOSS attitude that after you've had a problem, the standard response is "oh, you should have done X,Y,Z", like I'm in the wrong for not knowing the latest hacks and tricks. It's an O/S. Install and go yes ?

Now of course it's anecdotal, (the FOSS crowds favorite excuse and as such, can safely be ignored), but never since Windows XP have I had any hardware that didn't work out of the box, and most of the time, even before installing the supplied drivers, Windows would have a go at using some kind of default one, no matter how crippled.

Now regardless of whether this is a driver manufacturer reluctance to serve FOSS, for the end user, the important thing is "it just works". If it doesn't then you'll never see the adoption of other O/S that you will continue to see with MS products.

MacOS is kinda exempt, seeing as how the majority of hardware comes from Apple also, and the O/S is tuned to "always work" with that tiny subset. It's a nice experience, but comes with a price.

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[Jaseoldboss]

It's actually quite difficult to stay opted out. Every time they alter WGA it gets offered again, and it gets offered to any user who is with local admin rights irrespective of whether other users have declined or hidden it.

Re:I don't get why this is a problem

[Anne Honime]

never since Windows XP have I had any hardware that didn't work out of the box, and most of the time, even before installing the supplied drivers, Windows would have a go at using some kind of default one, no matter how crippled.

Ok, let's go anecdotal ; my mother just replaced her old XP Dell by a shiny new Vista computer. But her USB HP-made flatbed scanner had to be replaced, because there's no drivers for it in vista, and HP didn't bothered to update them. The irony ? Her new quad-core everything but the kitchen sink computer is a HP.

Now, for your tuner problem, it's more than likely that the driver is there and OK, but your tuner needs a firmware that can't be bundled for legal reasons in your distro. How to put the correct fw in the right place is left as an exercise to your imagination.

On a last note, while windows compatibility is pretty much taken for granted when shopping for hardware, it's not that much evident that pieces are not labeled with the necessary windows versions required to support them. Mess with it, and you're out of luck. It's exactly the same for linux, you have to be careful before buying, or to put it in latin, caveat emptor. All the HW I bought since 1998 was known to work with linux beforehand, and most of it still runs flawlessly.

Representation

[no-body]

of the purpose of WGA is fraudulent - not doubt; German XP versions, not sure if all (?) are forced to install WGA or no further system patches can be installed: Coercion: install WGA or run the risk of a compromised system.

But - let's be clear: There are plenty of other installed programs calling home and why is the Windows firewall so lousy to fail identifying, showing and logging any program trying to get out from the machine? Self-protection, Corporate cover up or plain stupidity of developers?

On other ends: Patents should only be valid as long as the original inventor (no corp legal entities!) is alive and then become public property.

Re:Representation

[jim_v2000]

"Coercion: install WGA or run the risk of a compromised system."

I suppose my bank also "coerces" me when I have to login to their website or risk not being able to access my bank account. Because it's the same concept.

So?

[Rix]

So if my accountant holds up a liquor store, can I keep him out of jail because I can't do my taxes without him?

If Microsoft is too big to fail, the answer is to cut it up until the pieces are small enough.

Re:So?

[c6gunner]

If Microsoft is too big to fail, the answer is to cut it up until the pieces are small enough.

You must have had a fun childhood. "Mister whiskers wouldn't fit in the peanut butter jar .... and now he does!"

Re:So?

[L4t3r4lu5]

What about when he grew up and couldn't fit into his old shoes any more?

Or his old pants?

Ew.

Re:So?

[rphenix]

They call him Mr Mince now.

Re:I've tried to tell people about this sort of th

[Anonymous Coward]

Bingo. And let's ad to that the fact that in the vast majority of cases it does what it's supposed to do. If you don't have a volume licensed copy of Windows that doesn't belong to you, you're unlikely to notice. If you got Windows from a less-than-reputable source or flat-out pirated it, then you deserve that black desktop.

I'm sure there are false positives, but I've never personally seen one. I'm sure the percentage is small, and if someone does become a false positive, it's (a) more of an annoyance than anything and (b) one that can be dealt with.

Which is not to say that I've never pirated Windows, but I'm not about to invent a new system of morality in order to deal with the cognitive dissonance. If you get caught, you get caught. Download another one.

I guess the real question is, why are people raising pitchforks over this at all when there's things like large-scale health care reform that needs to be worried about?

Re:I've tried to tell people about this sort of th

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't have a degree either. But, I can relay such information as it has been told to me by such people: If it's there, there must be a good reason for it. If it was wrong, someone would have done something about it.

And, it's not limited to corporations. It applies to just about any large social group, including government, unions, and social clubs.

Pirates Yes they rob I Sold I 2 the merchant ships

[Anonymous Coward]

"Minutes after they took I, to the bottomless pit... but my hands were made strong - by the hand of the almighty: We forward in this generation... triumphantly" - Bob Marley & the Wailers

Ms seems to be taking Windows to that "bottomless pit", but they're NOT fooling us "geek/tech types", & guess what folks? We're who folks listen to nowadays, a lot more than "marketing 1/2 truth hypes" that hide some of the uglies underneath the painted whore's makeup, basically.

Microsoft's been steadily "letting me down", & I am (or was) one of their BIGGEST FANS/PROPONENTS... That is slowly no longer the case, & becoming moreso, daily the more I read. This is how I feel.

See - MS has this FANTASTIC product, probably one of the greatest & largest programming artifacts in existence... a testament to human ingenuity really!

(One that comes with a great development toolset & API, that has allowed nearly anyone to become a developer + be creative... & yet are trying to "corrupt it" into nothing more than a RIAA tool... &, it really doesn't take a brain to figure out why: Look whose @ the helm of that company (says it all for me)).

No excuses: MS has a man leading them, who's NOT a tech - there is SOMETHING VERY WRONG WITH THAT, & clearly, it's showing...

(That kind of person? Hey, they probably could care less about ruining something beautiful, really - as long as it brings in the bucks, "who cares"... I wouldn't be surprised honestly if he has that as his "motto" on his wall, for 'words to live by')

I just don't understand folks like that, I truly don't.

Microsoft's GOT those BILLIONS - why the hell are they trying to "pull the wool over folks' eyes" & say "We've done this & that to Windows 7 to make it better" & some things they really HAVE done better (ASRL being one example thereof, & others being FINALLY 'stripping down' the tremendous amount of excessive background services as well as doing some GOOD WORK in the GUI to improve its performance as well (it needed it, alongside the memory mgt. debacle we ALL saw & it forced MS' hand to change it once more to a better working model (copying multimedia files ring a bell to anyone, or copying files around disks period?))) but, the things they've done wrong show thru in a much larger capacity (I list a few things I do not like below as examples thereof).

However - that's NO LONGER WORKING! All I have to do is cite VISTA's sales flop, as well as technical blunders, & then say "argue with the numbers"... pretty simple.

People today, because of the internet are TOO WELL INFORMED by those "in the know" to buy into some marketing b.s., & that IS that. They're not learning by their mistakes it seems, & still trying that crap.

Dear Microsoft: YOU CANNOT SELL SOMETHING TO PEOPLE THEY DO NOT WANT... get over it, it's HOW IT REALLY IS. You're making the same damned mistake the U.S. Auto Makers did in the 1970's & it's showing... examples thereof? Ok:

----

1.) Removing native OpenGL (forcing users to go grab drivers with an ICD in it that works? DUMB! That's crippling the OS & REMOVING GOOD FEATURES + a graphical std. that has 'stood the test of time' that works & is multiplatform)

2.) Trying new memmgt models that failed MISERABLY (from what I understand though, service packs to VISTA corrected this, but only SOME, not fully)

3.) Screwups on file copies (from what I understand though, service packs to VISTA corrected this, but only SOME, not fully)

4.) Digital Rights Management (DRM) - this is pure b.s.: People are going to duplicate & copy software, movies, music & more (been doing it for the course of my lifetime in fact, from casette tapes onwards -pull that ability? You pull the desires of one of your biggest markets really, the common user, who likes that stuff)

5.) HOSTS files not being able to use the more efficient 0 (vs. the less efficient & larger 0.0.0.0 or worst case 127.0.0.1) as a blocking ad

On draining the bottle

[jonaskoelker]

Drain the bottle if there's an actual feature that makes Windows 7 so much better than sticking with XP that you'll spend actual money to get it.

In that circumstance, I'd prefer the drink to be of such a concentration that the recommended dose is lethal :(

Another idiotic lawsuit....

[Targon]

Everyone should know by now that the WGA really was always about Microsoft cracking down on pirated versions of their products. Now, with that in mind, if the WGA does some checking and phones home, but does not send up anything that would identify the owner of the computer, what is the big deal? An IP address might get logged by Microsoft and attached to your registration key?

What is new at this point? If your version of Windows has been cut off due to being pirated(or being flagged as a pirated version), that means it IS a security issue for people. Some may complain that Microsoft stopped service packs from being installed on pirated versions of Windows, but, if you pirate a product, you really have sacrificed any rights you have to complain about the behavior of said product. If your copy is flagged as pirated when it is not, then you have the right to contact Microsoft to address the issue. Again, if you fail to do this, then it is your own fault because it TELLS you it thinks it is a pirated copy, and even what to do about it.

That final line about how MacOS doesn't have copy protection.....ummm, you can ONLY put it on an Apple branded computer, and there is a price premium built into Apple branded computers already, so the copy protection is there, just not in the normal form. If Apple were to open up MacOS to run on non-Apple computers, can you REALLY claim that copy protection of some sort would not be put in at that point?

Apple had a fit when Palm made the Pre work with iTunes, so can you REALLY say that Apple is innocent or doesn't have a lock-down mindset?

Re:Another idiotic lawsuit....

[WiiVault]

Palm hacked USB vendor code which is against the rules you agree to when you use USB. Apple patched it. It is insane that Apple is painted as the bad guy on this one. They deserve plenty of hate for their BS AppStore rules, and overpriced HW, but fixing an exploit that hacks the USB protocol is not one of them.

Re:Another idiotic lawsuit....

[C18H27NO3]

That part about MAC OS can only be put on genuine Apple hardware is an untruth.
Psystar? Hackintosh? OSx86?
Perhaps you meant legally and fully supportable as opposed to impossible?

Re:Another idiotic lawsuit....

[Anonymous Coward]

"If you pirate a product, you really have sacrificed any rights you have to complain about the behavior of said product" sums it up. The other remarks you made are true, but they are just the details.

Re:Another idiotic lawsuit....

[myowntrueself]

That final line about how MacOS doesn't have copy protection.....ummm, you can ONLY put it on an Apple branded computer, and there is a price premium built into Apple branded computers already, so the copy protection is there, just not in the normal form.

The OSX EULA is quite clear.

Its got nothing to do with "Apple branded computer"

It very specifically refers to "Apple labeled computer". My emphasis.

The OSX install media comes with Apple labels for you to attach to the computer onto which you are installing OSX.

Re:Another idiotic lawsuit....

[Richard_at_work]

OS X 10.5 had the 'Apple-labeled' term, but 10.6 has the 'Apple-branded' term. It is also dubious that slapping a sticker, even one supplied by Apple, makes that computer Apple-labeled or Apple-branded.

Re:Another idiotic lawsuit....

[Anonymous Coward]

"Hacks"? Reporting another vendor code to get around Apple's lock-out device isn't what I think of as a "hack" ... And given that Palm DIDN'T break anything, I'm not sure what there was to "patch" (i.e. fix)?

What, from the USER'S perspective, was broken here? I doubt many USERS care about some alleged contractual violation of agreements in using the USB specification. They care about using the hardware they bought. Hardware that Apple BROKE through a "patch" just so they could prevent the use of non-Apple hardware.

That doesn't strike me as "good guy" behavior. That strikes me as breaking people's hardware, deliberately, because it was made by a competitor.

Or if you want to persist in calling it a "hack of the USB protocol" maybe you'd care to explain how this "hack" leads to security vulnerabilities or harms the user?

Sick of WGA running monthly

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't stand WGA. I have a single WinXP system that I have set up for family to use when they come over because I use Linux and they aren't familiar with the OS. It seems like that every single time that I turn the system on WGA is downloading once again either on its own or with other Windows Updates. It is WGA because any time that I let it install it pops up with the window to let it install, and the rest of the updates won't continue until you hit that finish button.

Can't tell you how many times I accidentally left the "Tell me how WGA enhances my system" button checked, and I love the answer. To paraphrase, "WGA reports back to MS to make sure that your copy isn't pirated." How many times does WGA need to report back, seriously? Like I said, it seriously runs about once a month on this system, not that it is run that often anyway. Shouldn't there be something resident that once WGA checks and confirms authenticity it will remember it.

This is one of the main reasons that I switched to Linux, I haven't had to put of with this garbage in years. No viruses, no spyware, no WGA, no DRM, no hardware lock-in, none of that stuff that is a pain with Windows and Macs.

RE: Obama's DOJ -- Der Supremum

[Anonymous Coward]

According to the Department of Justice, they claim the rights of:

1. killing any US Citizen or non-citizen at their choosing -- personnel of the DoJ and Executive, who have been vested, such as the President, have immunity, for a time being decided by the DoJ at their choosing.

2. killing of any human being outside the US is granted.

3. The DoJ is the prosecutor and executioner at their choosing.

4. The DoJ is not bound by the Constitution of the United States of America, any States Constitutions, or any principles other than those which the DoJ chooses to abide by at any given time on any given day of any given year.

I cannot wait until ReactOS goes 1.0

[Orion Blastar]

ReactOS is still being developed. Some day (maybe in five years) it will reach the golden 1.0 standard. It should replace Windows XP and then we can forget about those WGA updates.

WGA has too many false positives and can ruin wallpaper settings (turning the screen to black) and do other annoying things. Plus I keep seeing it installed even if updates are turned off. Currently my system is genuine but if a Firewall software blocks Internet access it thinks it is not genuine. Until I allow the firewall and then hit validate, then everything is OK.

I doubt a majority of Windows users will migrate towards Vista or Windows 7 because of legacy software issues and legacy hardware that cannot run Vista or 7. ReactOS will fill that hole quite nicely when it is done with Windows XP compatibility and no WGA gotchas.

Re:I cannot wait until ReactOS goes 1.0

[WiiVault]

To be fair though WinXP will be quite dated in 5 years.

Re:I cannot wait until ReactOS goes 1.0

[shutdown -p now]

I doubt a majority of Windows users will migrate towards Vista or Windows 7 because of legacy software issues and legacy hardware that cannot run Vista or 7.

A majority of Windows users will simply buy new PCs, which will come with Win7. Most netbooks will start shipping with it as soon as it'll get released to the general public, as well.

Hardware compatibility issues were a big deal when Vista was released, but mostly because of that release hardware manufacturers were forced to deal with it, and did so. Virtually any hardware manufactured after Vista release will run Vista (and therefore Win7) well - and this means last 3 years or so.

Legacy software isn't an issue with Win7 because of Virtual XP Mode.

Re:I cannot wait until ReactOS goes 1.0

[TangoMargarine]

Too bad that Microsoft will undoubtedly sue the ReactOS developers into oblivion five minutes before the first *really* workable version is released. I heard about ReactOS last year, and I'd love to see them succeed, but either 1) the ReactOS project will peter out before it reaches critical mass, or 2) by the time it's finally released, it won't be relevant anymore. (Hurd, anyone?) All the same, best of luck to them.

Re:I cannot wait until ReactOS goes 1.0

[Anonymous Coward]

> Some day (maybe in five years) [ReactOS] will reach the golden 1.0
> standard.

Should ReactOS ever achieve anything close to bug-for-bug
compatibility with Windows XP, it will be as legacy an OS as DOS is
today and will be irrelevant for the vast majority of users.

Re:I cannot wait until ReactOS goes 1.0

[TheRaven64]

What makes you say that? DOS barely qualified as an OS. It lacked:

1. Memory protection, so processes could not be isolated from each other.
2. Support drivers (all programs talked to the hardware directly, so every game, for example, needed to include its own drivers for every sound card that it might use).
3. Any concept of multitasking for programs bigger than 64KB (.COM programs could register interrupt handlers and implement their own multitasking).

In contrast, the differences between XP and a more modern OS are much less severe. XP lacks a decent filesystem for flash drives, for example, but porting one from another OS to ReactOS would be trivial. I expect ReactOS will get something like a FUSE implementation at some point, giving it access to a lot of . XP lacks a compositing GUI, but that's also relatively easy to add to ReactOS (the changes for supporting this drawing model in X.org were a few thousand lines of code).

ReactOS is already quite complete. It can run a number of large Win32 applications, like OpenOffice, FireFox, Unreal Tournament, and so on.

Re:I cannot wait until ReactOS goes 1.0

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope you have a nice, comfortable armchair.

I will be enjoying Windows 7 while you wait for your vaporware to arrive, thank you very much.

One word: Oracle

[El_Oscuro]

I know of great place to get the latest version of Oracle Enterprise addition for any platform, no license keys, no activation required, no trial periods, no protection at all. Just download it for your favorite platform and install it.

technet.oracle.com

Last time I checked, Oracle is pretty profitable, even though they have no copy protection of any kind. Apparently, the ACTUALLY trust their customers somewhat which puts them in a pretty rare class these days.

Microsoft is only shooting themselves in the foot:

1. Copy protection doesn't work. It didn't work in the 1980's and it won't work now.
2. WGA might not really create a disincentive for pirates, as most people who download a cracked copy off pirates bay do not always obtain the latest security patches from Microsoft.
3. These pirated copies are actually free advertising for Microsoft. It gives them the net effect which is still very important in these markets.
4. WGA definitely creates a disincentive for legitimate customers like me:
   1. I have a legal copy of MS-Office which I no longer have installed. After having to go through the activation drill twice after reinstalling Windows, it just seems too much of a hassle to do it again. Thus, I have become much more proficient in Open Office, and can pass those skills unto others.
   2. My Ubuntu Dell laptop also came with a Vista CD. I briefly considered installing it somewhere, as I figured becoming familiar with the latest version of Windows would be useful, maybe running in a VM or something. WGA nixed that idea, and whatever neat features Vista has, I have never seen them.
5. Privacy is not a straw man. It is in fact a very big deal to me. Once someone else has control over your computer, whether it is Microsoft or some Haxt0r, it is pwnd. I have moved anything important to Linux a long time ago, and no longer trust any Windows computer connected to the Internet with any important information.

Re:One word: Oracle

[Anonymous Coward]

Copy protection doesn't work. It didn't work in the 1980's and it won't work now.

Au contraire, I was very affected by the "Don't copy that floppy" campaign. So I stopped installing software on my computer because it had to copy on my hard drive.

the problem is the WEEKLY CHECK IN

[RobertLTux]

even if you have a legit copy of Vista then if the WGA auth server goes wheels up and it trys to check in (which it does i think weekly) then you will get flagged plus what happens if somebody decides to hack the auth server and invoke the kill switch??
(or a virus trips the flag while its doing whatever it is doing)

Re:the problem is the WEEKLY CHECK IN

[MarkKB]

IIRC, if WGA is unable to contact the servers, it assumes the product is genuine. Previous "outages" were due to malformed code on the server, not the servers themselves being offline.

Re: I'm betting you have a cell phone

[Anonymous Coward]

"Look in your pocket... I'm betting you have a cell phone."

You lose, because I don't feel the need to be connected ALL the freaking time, so I don't ever carry a cell phone unless I'm on the road, and even then, I only turn it on when I need it.

Sheeple willingly give up their privacy to support their insecurities of missing a banal phone call.

WGA, STFU

[Anonymous Coward]

I just want WGA to quit annoying me. I inherited this XP box with my cubicle and I don't have any verification information. Microsoft should be happy with its market share and quit bothering its users.

Re:WGA, STFU

[leuk_he]

"WGA's implementation also prevented users from purging the protection from their PCs without completely reformatting a computer's system drive"

There are certinaly was to may WGA STFU. Your system will not be "Genuine" after that, and updates will fail, but that is nothing a good firewall cannot fix. (Keep that PC of the internet after you quit updating)

Where is the +1 Astroturf when you need it?

[Anne Honime]

Obviously straight from the hors^W MS marketing department mouth.

Re:Where is the +1 Astroturf when you need it?

[red_blue_yellow]

Obviously straight from the hors^W MS marketing department mouth.

Probably not.

Have you never heard the argument that if Microsoft were to successfully prevent piracy of Windows, it would result in a massive worldwide adoption of Linux?

Re:Where is the +1 Astroturf when you need it?

[Anne Honime]

This answer originating from the next cubicle of the same open space, I guess.

There's a better way.

[Nero Nimbus]

From the summary: WGA's implementation also prevented users from purging the protection from their PCs without completely reformatting a computer's system drive.

This line is so stupid that it hurts, because it makes the assumption that WGA is somehow going to vanish in a puff of smoke if you'll just nuke from orbit and start over. These people should just do the following, if WGA offends them so badly:

1. Make a text file, but give it a .bat extension. Make it something like, oh, I don't know, "wganuke.bat."
2. Paste the following into your new text file:

echo Y > cacls wgatray.exe /d everyone
echo Y > cacls wgalogon.dll /d everyone
echo Y > cacls legitcheckcontrol.dll /d everyone


3. Save.
4. Double-click on the icon for your new text file.
5. No more WGA (Sorry, no PROFIT! jokes here). Updating also works like a charm. The above was tested on XP SP3, but I have no reason to believe that it wouldn't work on Vista or Win7.

Re:There's a better way.

[Nero Nimbus]

I forgot that you've got to cd into C:\Windows\System32 first, before running those commands.

If

[zogger]

This "if" scenario wouldn't be all that bad. Not at all.

    IF Microsoft was found to be engaging in RICO, long term constant skullduggery and mischief in the marketplace, bribes, kickbacks, collusions, intimidations, installing rootkits and spyware, etc,etc, and they lost their corporate charter...the government could just take the goods-same as they take any crooks goods away from them, and either sell them at auction or just the physical plant and then take the IP and just slap the source code out under a public domain license or something like that and do the same with their patents. Note, this isn't "going bankrupt" this is busted for being racketeers.

    Now all those ex employees after the corporation is dissolved could hang out their "MS Xpert" shingle doing repairs and customizations, security companies would be hired to find bugs and do patches, etc, perhaps several forks of their OS and applications might occur, etc. Small transition period, but I just don't see any showstoppers here.

    All the code running now will not just automagically stop running should they be put out of business for being chronic serial bad guys at the management level. Look at all the holdouts still running XP and office 2003 and so on, right now, because they don't really *need* anything else, it is functional enough. All they need is some security patches now and then and new drivers for new hardware. Big freekin deal. There would be zero business lost in the greater community, none whatsoever. there would be *changed* business, but no business of any note would be lost if this theoretical real demand is really there.

  The government does this sort of thing with small time and even medium sized crooks all the time, take their fancy cars and cash and money laundering businesses and so on, then sell it at auction and just keep any cash they seize, so why not with the largest crooks and their stuff?

    Is there some magic line the government can't cross when it comes to seizing ill gotten gains? I am not aware of any such "law".

  And if all these skilled devs and programmers and so on who work directly for Microsoft are even half as good as they say they are, and the demand for continuing MS software is as you say, then all the same people now working for MS should have very little problem finding alternative employment more or less doing exactly what they are doing now..but just not for microsoft, inc.

As for shareholders pfffttt..I fart in their general direction. And I had chili tonight. I am really tired of that old meme like their steenking profits are a "get out of any responsibility at all" excuse for any corporate actions whatsoever, screw em! If they can't be assed enough to do "due diligence" on their alleged employees and their conduct or misconduct, said employees would be the board and upper management at Microsoft, after not just years but DECADES of some pretty serious *hints* that a lot is going on under the surface level that might not be on the up and up, and they keep ignoring it and ignoring it and ignoring it, well who cares, society has *no legal, ethical or moral responsibility whatsoever* to do it for them.

I see no downside at all to busting big fat crooks and crooked companies. And it's better for it TO happen, and the sooner the better, example, enron, worldcom, etc.

  Don't let that rot keep festering away. As soon as it is evident, cut it out and sterilize the surrounding tissue before it spreads. The sooner the better. "Too big to fail" is the lamest and stupidest reason out there to excuse or even support such crooked enterprises (also see: casino bankster gangsters).

Roy Schestowitz does it good.

[Anonymous Coward]

David Gerard had gay sex with his good friend Roy Schestowitz, now his asshole is so blown out it looks like an Arby's roast beef sandwich.

Waaaaaaaaa

[Anonymous Coward]

Um....waaaaa...waaaaa.waaaaaaaa

Re: Obama's DOJ -- Der Supremum

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF??

End of Life

[Tiger4]

How long does it take a big lawsuit to wend its way through the bowels of the justice system> 3 - 5 years? That gets you to a judgment. And then the appeals kick in. Another 3 years later maybe you know who was right, 6 - 8 years earlier.

Meanwhile, Windows XP, released in 2002, will hit end of life around 2012. About 3 years from now.

By the time this lawsuit has any hope of making any kind of impact, MS will no longer officially care. Vista will be middle aged news by then, and Win7 will in all probability be well established.

Nothing to see here.

Re:One word: Oracle

[gbarules2999]

Copy protection doesn't work. It didn't work in the 1980's and it won't work now.

Let's just stop it here. Let the truth sink in.

That's the problem with the +5 Insightful FAQ poster up there. This would all be okay to bear if it was stopping piracy in the slightest. It isn't. You're foolish to think it would. And the whole "it stops casual piracy" nonsense has been overblown for years; most casuals will just ask a techie to do it for them, or if not, google around and crack the thing themselves. It's not that hard of a process, and you'd be surprised what some people can do when their Windows stops functioning.

ReactOS : Impressive

[Anne Honime]

I somehow looked at the project around ver. 0.1.x, but it wasn't even remotely usable then. Your post made me go back and d/l the qemu image (ReactOS 3.10) ready for use. Everybody should give it a try, it's only 34 Mb, qemu for windows included. It works like a breeze on my fedora 10 (under qemu-kvm), with absolutely no config tweaking, and it seems quite stable so far. I'm going to follow this project much more closely from now on, the improvements just have been massive. TY for the tip.

For a different take on WGA.

[geopsychic]

See the UserFriendly archive. http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20070313

japanese brand

[mambodog]

Does anyone else think WGA sounds like some kind of Japanese Soap Brand?

Windows, Genuine Advantage 100%!!

Re:I've tried to tell people about this sort of th

[ETMegabyte]

In many cases, people simply don't care what's being sent to Microsoft, as there's a sense of implicit trust in large corporations

I'm not sure it's a trust thing. Most people, whether they understand the implications of the EULA or not, feel that they need to install the software regardless. If they go out and BUY Microsoft Office, open it up, put in the CD, but don't agree to the terms, they CAN'T return it (since just about all places will not accept returns for open software), so they're out a couple hundred bucks. Also, someone wouldn't have bought MS Office if they didn't have a NEED for it, so therefore, whether they understand/accept the EULA or not, they feel they HAVE to have it.

Most people, who run a Windows OS, feel that a computer is not a computer without Windows. It's all about the marketing. People have been talking about linux for YEARS, yet more than like 90% of computer users out there couldn't tell you what linux was, and certainly wouldn't know how to install it if they did. They feel that they NEED windows to use their computer, so the only way to install it is to accept the EULA whether they agree with it or not.

WGA must be spyware.

[u64]

WGA is by design SPYWARE. It wouldnt work otherwise.

Method of infection: running WindowsAutomaticUpdate.

I'm looking for some way to block WindowsUpdate from installing WGA...

I have a few ideas but no computer to sarifice yet... Perhaps we can

create locked dummy-files with WGA filenames?

Also, would be nice to be able to block various "Updates" that we dont want...

For now i just manually download updates.exe and run them from a batch file,

WindowsXP-KB938464-v2-x86-SVE.exe /n /norestart /passive

WindowsXP-KB951376-v2-x86-SVE.exe /n /norestart /passive

WindowsXP-KB950974-x86-SVE.exe /n /norestart /passive

WindowsXP-KB951748-x86-SVE.exe /n /norestart /passive

WindowsXP-KB954459-x86-SVE.exe /n /norestart /passive

WindowsXP-KB954600-x86-SVE.exe /n /norestart /passive

WindowsXP-KB956802-x86-SVE.exe /n /norestart /passive

WindowsXP-KB956803-x86-SVE.exe /n /norestart /passive

WindowsXP-KB957097-x86-SVE.exe /n /norestart /passive

WindowsXP-KB958644-x86-SVE.exe /n /norestart /passive

WindowsXP-KB958687-x86-SVE.exe /n /norestart /passive

WindowsXP-KB960803-x86-SVE.exe /n /norestart /passive

WindowsXP-KB961373-x86-SVE.exe /n /norestart /passive

WindowsXP-KB961501-x86-SVE.exe /n /norestart /passive

WindowsXP-KB968537-x86-SVE.exe /n /norestart /passive

WindowsXP-KB969897-x86-SVE.exe /n /norestart /passive

WindowsXP-KB970238-x86-SVE.exe /n /norestart /passive

Brings XP3 properly and safely to July 2009.

wget

[u64]

If we could maintain a trusted bat-file that list the sane Updates we

could simply automatically run a local static bat-file that downloads

the Update.bat

and runs it. Update.bat then downloads and installs the Updates.

Fully legally bypassing WGA and lots of other bloat!

Re:wget

[Kaenneth]

And all you have to do is pay someone to support it... maybe a large software company, that's produced a long line of OS's... Hey, maybe Microsoft could do it!

Seriously, why would anyone bother to pay the bandwidth bills, and accept the liability for errors, when it's already being provided by the origional maker?

If you want a free OS, use Linux or something. If you want a car analogy: Walk there.

Re:Pirates Yes they rob I Sold I 2 the merchant sh

[Anonymous Coward]

A true MS boycott will never happen, but as we've seen Windows 7 was whipped out fast as a response to the semi-boycott of Vista by people sticking with XP. Unfortunately XP can't keep up with hardware, and people will have to upgrade to something. MS knows this and will never get rid of your complaints above until alternatives are a real threat.

I don't get this, don't u just go download FixWGA?

[herojig]

I don't get this, don't u just go download FixWGA from the nearest torrent site, and then be done with it? Honestly - frivolous lawsuit!

A funny thing happened to me installing Visio

[CuteSteveJobs]

Everything legit. Legit Windows. Legit Visio. Legit Office. Legit *everything*. ok?

But after installing Visio it tells me (which included SP3) it says "Oh hey, you need to download some new content." Why isn't that in the SP, I wonder? Well I click download and it's a small addon just a few hundred K. Weird I wonder. Why didn't they just include it? I didn't even need the function. But when I click download it tells me to install WGA. I tried half a dozen times without installing WGA and it wouldn't let me...

In the end I was able to get around it without installing Bill's Viralware. Eat that, Microsoft.

Re:A funny thing happened to me installing Visio

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, eat that Microsoft! I bought all your stuff and gave you money, and but I wouldn't jump through an arbitrary hoop! There's sticking it to the man...

Re:I've tried to tell people about this sort of th

[thsths]

In many cases, people simply don't care what's being sent to Microsoft, as there's a sense of implicit trust in large corporations. I have no idea where this trust comes from, but it's definitely real.

And rightly so. If you don't trust Microsoft, you should not run their software - not WGA, and not Windows. Once you run Windows, you may just as well run WGA - they own you anyway.

Re:madness

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, we're all enjoying Slashdot a lot more since you went off to BoycottNovell. Could you stay there?

Re:I've tried to tell people about this sort of th

[gbjbaanb]

tell them that it sends their browsing habits to Microsoft (to make sure they don't download any pirate copies of Windows) and they'll instantly get *very* concerned.

How can Apple "patch" this?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's reporting it as an Apple iPod through the USB vendor/product ID's, then Apple can't block it: it would be saying it IS an iPod.

If Apple can block it, then it's not lying, it's trying to interoperate.

Re:How can Apple "patch" this?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

If it's reporting it as an Apple iPod through the USB vendor/product ID's, then Apple can't block it: it would be saying it IS an iPod. If Apple can block it, then it's not lying, it's trying to interoperate.

It's lying as a way to try to interoperate. It's just not lying very well, since it wants to use the Palm software as well so it registers as a different device depending on what it is doing. This makes it easy for Apple to figure out what is a real iPod and what is a Palm reporting itself as an iPod.

Re: I'm betting you have a cell phone

[Anonymous Coward]

You are just as bad as my 71 year old mother who leaves her's switched off "because it runs the battery down".

I sincerely hope someone needs to contact you urgently, perhaps with a family emergency. Maybe that will wipe the smug "I only use it when I need to" look off your face.

Jail the CEO

[Anonymous Coward]

Then if it still happens while the CEO is in clink, jail the CFO. Then the CTO, then go through the management and the board.

A company can survive some years without a CEO, but if it continues to do bad, it will not survive without any board or C*O.

And a C*O can't get those years back from the company like they can a fine.

Re:I've tried to tell people about this sort of th

[TheRaven64]

While your idea has some merits, I suspect the second system effect would make it a far-from-ideal solution.

Re:I've tried to tell people about this sort of th

[TheRaven64]

People have been talking about linux for YEARS, yet more than like 90% of computer users out there couldn't tell you what linux was, and certainly wouldn't know how to install it if they did

Well, to be fair, I suspect that 90% of computer users also couldn't tell you what Windows was, and wouldn't be able to install it. OS X is probably the only OS that I'd trust the average computer user to be able to install, and that's only on a Mac where no partitioning is needed and all drivers are included with the install DVD.

Re:One word: Oracle

[TheRaven64]

It does stop casual piracy. Well, more accurately, it changes casual piracy. Previously, casual piracy meant that one person would buy it and give it to their close friends. Now casual piracy means that they will just download a cracked version from some file sharing system. And, while they're there, they'll also grab copies of anything else that looks interesting. The net result is that you don't even need one person in a group to have paid for the product anymore.

Duh? Your point?

[Real1tyCzech]

Spyware in and of itself is not illegal. A ton of applications gather information and report to their "home". This is perfectly legal as long as the user is informed. (Not aware...as most users are completely not, but at least given the opportunity to be aware)

So long as Microsoft has notified the user of the fact that data is transferred and what type of data is transferred, there's no legal recourse...the user was given the opportunity to be aware of the "spyware".

Who Cares

[ironicsky]

I know some people will be pissed by me saying this, but seriously. If you are a Windows user there is a good chance that 9 out of 10 programs you have installed are communicating back anyway "reporting" your IP address and other pieces of information.

-Windows Update
-MSN Messenger(Or whatever they changed the name too this week)
-Any other messenger
-Your virus scanner
-Any adobe product
-Any product with an automatic update feature

People need to lay off Microsoft for this "Spying" crap. As long as they aren't copying personal files, logging key strokes or taking screen captures who cares. All your other software is doing the exact same thing.

If you don't want third party companies knowing the potential where abouts of your computer, don't go online with it.

Re:One word: Oracle

[jim_v2000]

I'm sorry, but the demand for Oracle database software isn't really on the same level as Windows.

Hm.

[Anonymous Coward]

From Wikipedia.
[quote]
Windows Genuine Advantage checks the following components:[13][14]

        * Computer make and model
        * BIOS checksum.
        * MAC address.
        * A unique number assigned to your computer by the tools (Globally Unique Identifier or GUID)
        * Hard drive serial number.
        * Region and language settings of the operating system.
        * Operating system version.
        * PC BIOS information (make, version, date).
        * PC manufacturer.
        * User locale setting.
        * Validation and installation results.
        * Windows or Office product key.
        * Windows XP product ID.
[/quote]

Oh, wow. Real critical data collection there.

I can't help but feel if some of you are just jumping at everything that Microsof-

*smacks forehead*

This is Slashdot, I forgot. Sheesh.

I hope this lawsuit fixes things...

[Anonymous Coward]

Every time I install XP, I have to be careful and un-check the WGA notification malware during the update process. I don't want the capitalist pigs needlessly eating up my RAM and discretely transmitting information over my network connection.

I remember reading that this thing phones home once a day, and of course it also runs in the background, wasing memory.

who gets to vote

[minstrelmike]

I like the idea of punishing the corporation, but I certainly don't want them to vote.

Re:I've tried to tell people about this sort of th

[ajlisows]

Most of the consumers you dealt with trust Microsoft? I'm actually kind of shocked. Most of the people I knew that asked me what was going on with the WGA popups were frightened that they were doing something illegal (Ones who are not) and were going to get a fine or something. It seemed to give them the feeling that they specifically were being targeted and watched by this huge corporation. The corporation doesn't really have any Stores or anything like that so they can't really imagine what Microsoft is. It is Bill Gates and a bunch of faceless geeks and lawyers at some undisclosed location.

I think the worst part is when WGA updates itself or whatever happens. After not hearing from it for several months suddenly it starts nagging at you for some reason. When people are repeatedly asked "Are you stealing this software" they start to wonder what the heck is going on.

Re:I've tried to tell people about this sort of th

[palegray.net]

It is Bill Gates and a bunch of faceless geeks and lawyers at some undisclosed location.

I do find it interesting that your view of customers' trust in Microsoft differs this much from mine. In my experience people view Microsoft as something much bigger than any store presence; they tend to associate Microsoft with computing in general (as in, "it's not a computer if it doesn't run Windows"). That's worth a heck of a lot more with respect to implicit trust than any kind of physical presence.

Already done

[unassimilatible]

So if the reward is coupons, then the lawyers get 30% of the coupons.

Class Action Fairness Act of 2005

Re:I've tried to tell people about this sort of th

[ajlisows]

Just for the hell of it, what would you say is your typical Demographic in this instance?

Note: I'm not talking about corporate users, these are from side jobs that I pick up. I actually do a fair amount of work this way (I do a good job so I get recommended a lot by word of mouth. I actually like working with reasonable residential people. ;) ) I am from Milwaukee and most of the people that I do stuff for are suburban Blue Collar workers who do not use computers extensively at work and are between the ages of 35-55. They are generally pretty bright and are willing to try to learn/understand some technical stuff. I am willing to spend time explaining things to them and while I could probably make more money, it is pretty satisfying when they call me and want to try installing RAM or a second internal hard drive on their own and just want a bit of advice.

Perhaps one of the strangest things I have noted is that over half of them know the term "Linux" and have a vague notion that it is something that can be used as a replacement for "Microsoft Windows" and ask questions about it. I lay out what it is and there have been a few who have considered it but quite often obscure pieces of software (Fishing Map software being a big one) make it not really an option.

Don't forget...

[Anonymous Coward]

...to pay your $699 licensing fee you cock smoking twitter!