On-Body Circuits Create New Sense Organ

destinyland writes "In 'My New Sense Organ,' a science writer tests 'a new sense' — the ability to always know true north — by strapping a circuit board to her ankle. It's connected to an electronic compass and an ankle band with eight skin buzzers. The result? 'I had wrong assumptions I didn't know about ... I returned home to Washington DC to find that, far worse than my old haunt San Francisco, my mental map of DC swapped north for west. I started getting more lost than ever as the two spatial concepts of DC did battle in my head.' The device also detects 'the specific places where infrastructure interferes with the earth's magnetic fields.'

Comments

Yawn

[Anonymous Coward]

Been done. Do something novel.

Re:Yawn

[DrLang21]

This actually would have interesting applications in psycho-physics research.

Re:Yawn

[Anonymous Coward]

Your post has been done before too. Be more original.

Re:Yawn

[SETIGuy]

Yes, but would those applications be any different than they were the last time someone did this exact same thing?

Re:Yawn

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia, more original been done has before your post, too.

Much more practical...

[FooAtWFU]

A bracelet! Much more practical than the haptic compass belt, then.

Re:Much more practical...

[Ihmhi]

Yeah but when you're walking around town you can count on an anklet being aligned properly most of the time. Arms occasionally go perpendicular to the body. d:

Re:Much more practical...

[nahdude812]

Hmm, I wonder in a bracelet application, which would give better feedback: body orientation being north causing the same point on your wrist to receive sensation (eg, when facing north, the back of your wrist), or the point on your wrist which most closely points north?

I'm actually guessing the latter; even though your wrist may move around a lot in relation to the rest of your body, most people have a very good sense of the position and orientation of their extremities in real space around themselves.

Probably the most functional would be a hat or head band, as you turn your head you get feedback on the direction you're facing. To specifically locate north, you'd look that direction until the sensation moved to the center of your forehead. At that point you can eyeball landmarks.

What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[Bicx]

Is this really a new sensory organ if it just relies on buzzers rather than direct neural connections? Maybe I've just been spoiled by all the awesome research done in computer-brain interfaces.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[Monkeedude1212]

If university students took it upon themselves to do some advanced neurological surgery as a fun project...

THAT WOULD BE AWESOME.

I hope they would Youtube the procedure.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[Hyppy]

I find it fascinating, actually. Why have direct neural connections when one's body makes all the necessary interpretations based upon available stimuli?

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[jbeaupre]

It has little teeny tiny pipes, bellows, keyboard, and guy in a cape with a mask over half his face.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[Bicx]

I knew I should have taken anatomy

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[joocemann]

The body is an amazing thing. The brain, too. I was recently reading about a camera device that sends signal data to a 'lollipop' that is placed on the tongue of blind people. In short time, the people's brains began to interpret the signals (which are not the same as optical signals at all) as to what it truly was --- and the patients began to see. http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/08/22/2035256

It really amazes me at the ability of the brain to start with some from of stimulus (beit natural or induced) and decipher its relevance.

The difference in what qualifies 'sensory organ' may well be semantics; or maybe we need new definitions to describe these novel apparatus.

In contrast, neurons are not in direct connection, either; neurotransmitters span a space between them called the synaptic cleft. Those neurotransmitters are chemical stimuli; these 'buzzers' are electronic stimuli. There are some differences and none are very clearly understood, but as far as I know we might accomplish the same by 'buzzing' with small and rapid doses of neurotransmitters instead of buzzing.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[cabjf]

Technically this is a computer-brain interface. The device is just using convenient, pre-existing inputs to the brain. The average person considers taste a sense even though it relies heavily on one's sense of smell. So what the difference if this relies on someone's sense of touch?

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[Bicx]

I have a degree in Computer Science with a concentration in scientific applications, and my education only leaves me more amazed and confounded by how well the brain adapts to situations that would have never even happened in a natural setting (like the mouthpiece connected to the camera device).

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[da5idnetlimit.com]

Lag !
(and retroaction, but that is another subject)

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[gmuslera]

The ability of the brain to find a pattern in some stimuli and built "on the fly" a new sense of it is simply amazing, and opens the possibility of new senses for all, even if is as a fashion trend.

But mass deployment must be aware that it also takes place, or adds "noise", to at least a region of our actual existing senses, information that could have been useful or needed and now become blurred by this artificial input. And there is of course the physical impact of it in that area. Picking the right place for mapping a new sense will be a delicate topic for this.

Wonder what kind of new senses will be nice to add this way, or if the eyes will keep being the typical overloaded organ putting it all in i.e. augumented reality devices like this ones

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[GameMaster]

What would be even more awesome would be if they chose to do it to themselves with the help of some Yoga classes and a mirror. That would make for one heck of a YouTube video.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[GameMaster]

Yup. Of course, the next question becomes what, practical, application can you think of in which you would need ultra-low lag in finding magnetic north? Really, most of the, truly, useful applications of direct neural connections would be in the realm of controlling electronic devices and directly manipulating our perception to create realistic VR for entertainment interaction with remote/dangerous environments.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[Hognoxious]

It's still not a new sense, any more than a regular compass that communicates via a naturally occurring one.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember reading an article about this kind of thing in what I believe was Wikipedia (though I can't seem to find it at the moment). It seems that similar experiments have been dome for many decades. What varies between the different projects is the size of the equipment and the area of the body chosen. I seem to remember some of them using the skin on the back as well as the back of the hands among other locations. The trick is to find an area of the body that the user wouldn't mind, too much, loosing the normal use of but also making sure that that area has a high density of touch receptors. Certain sections of skin, such as the finger tips, are much more sensitive to touch because they have more nerve endings. Over time, with enough practice, the brains of the users re-wired themselves to perceive the 2d input of the device poking their skin as image information (just as you mentioned). Of course, it's no-where near as effective as real eyes but it does provide a potential intermediary step between being blind and the development of full-quality artificial eyes (or the ability to just clone new ones).

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[AP31R0N]

i think they invented that system to help SCUBA divers navigate in the dark (and plant explosives on enemy boats at night).

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why I think a lot of the hopes and research into "reading the mind" as a form of brain-machine-interface are off the mark. Forget about trying to decipher what the brain is doing, just wire some sort of I/O system, which we already have in chips that talk to nerves, in place and let the brain figure out what to do with it. It will take training and practice to get used to it, but it will be a lot simpler than trying to figure out how the brain works.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[CheeseTroll]

The author mentioned that she got dizzy more quickly when spinning while wearing the device, than without it. However, this is probably due to the lag time of the device itself, more than the (indirect) connection to her brain.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[pla]

it also takes place, or adds "noise", to at least a region of our actual existing senses, information that could have been useful or needed and now become blurred by this artificial input.

While true, we don't really "need" the vast majority of our sense of touch - Aside from letting us know about injuries (which I would expect to far outweigh the input of a small buzzer), any given point on our legs, torso, arms, or even most of our heads, really doesn't matter much so far as sensing environmental input goes. We generally can't even count on those to give meaningful input, because we wear clothes over them (and thus, automatically block out what little they do tell us) .

Incidentally, I recall reading about a similar experiment about a decade ago, by a group of body-modification fans, where a few people implanted tiny rare-earth magnets in their fingers. While the magnets lasted, they described it as very much having a new sense. They could locate magnetic north, detect the presence and frequency of electric and magnetic fields, identify most metals (including non-ferromagnetic) just by touch, etc. Made me quite jealous, except the part where their bodies eventually broke the magnets down (with some rather ugly, though localized, surface effects).

But this... Perhaps not quite as "cool", but also not quite as irreversable if something goes wrong. Time to hit the workshop...

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[Anonymous Coward]

A sense the ability to detect information from your environment.
Being able to interpret where North is IS a new input.
Therefore this is an input, regardless of the fact that it is using a pre-existing channel of delivery.

The argument of senses being contained to one section of the brain is the biggest pile of bullshit in neurology today.
For one, we already know sight isn't.
And it pretty much claims Synesthesia as being impossible.
The brain is not a defined construct, it varies in every single human who has ever lived, some people have perfectly fine lives with half a brain, some with no central section of the brain, blah blah etc.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[dzfoo]

>> Technically this is a computer-brain interface. The device is just using convenient, pre-existing inputs to the brain.

So, does that mean that reading a regular compass in the old-fashioned way, say, by using your eyes, qualifies as a computer-brain interface, since the device (the compass) is just using a convenient, pre-existing input mechanism to the brain (the eyes)?

>> So what the difference if this relies on someone's sense of touch?

The difference then is that the actual "sensoring" is done by the body's old hardware, so nothing new. Would you say then that a pager set on "vibrate" is a "new sensory organ" just because it communicates alerts via stimulation of touch sensors?

Kids nowadays, they are so easily amused.

        -dZ.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[Arancaytar]

You're sitting in front of a computer-brain interface. :P

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[g253]

There's a quite interesting bit in Douglas Adams' Salmon of Doubt where he describes the way a Rhino "sees" the world through his sense of smell (which is much more developed than the others).

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[commodoresloat]

camera device that sends signal data to a 'lollipop' that is placed on the tongue of blind people.

There's a truly tasteless joke in here somewhere but I'm too lazy to figure it out.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[tool462]

maybe we need new definitions to describe these novel apparatus.

I agree. Perhaps something like extra-sensory apparatus, and the usage can be called extra-sensory perception.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[clone53421]

Actually, I'd say it's both: the lag time of the device is conflicting with the sense of motion from her eyes and sense of balance. The conflict causes disorientation and dizziness because the brain has learned to rely on it.

Recall that normal dizziness is basically the same thing: when you stop spinning, the lag time of the inner ear's sense of balance disagrees with the instantly stationary image from your sense of sight. Your balance thinks you're still spinning but your eyes say you're not. If you could spin at a perfectly constant rate, you wouldn't feel dizzy (until you stopped, naturally).

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[bvankuik]

While a really cool story, I have hard timebeljeving my dreams of good body modification coming true. The human body has a wild adversion against being intruded. Almost anything I read about things being implanted, mentions lots of nasty drugs to counter the body breaking off the implant. And besides if you really hardhack the human body, you are taking risks which you cannot ignore. The smallest surgical action has a risk. Even procedures like circumcisiun have a tiny percentage going wrong, whether it is an infection or a half cut off penis. No i am not joking. IMHO the body is saying: do NOT screw around with me. I am wearig glasses or contacts while I could get a permanent eye correction. but having read the chance of failure, I'm like no thank you.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[xOneca]

what, practical, application can you think of in which you would need ultra-low lag in finding magnetic north?

In a real FPS online game, for example... Although Internet connection's lag would be greater.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[RubberChainsaw]

I heard about the magnets in fingers, too. You can hear it in the NPR archives.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[Anonymous Coward]

RE: "The difference in what qualifies 'sensory organ' may well be semantics; or maybe we need new definitions to describe these novel apparatus."

Thankfully, Clark & Chalmers did this some time ago. It started out with the insight that people are better at tetris when rotating objects on the screen rather than visualizing the rotation. For more, see "The extended mind':

http://consc.net/papers/extended.html

(the central idea is that if some object X does something that, were it in your head, you would call it a function of your mind, just go ahead and call X a part of your mind)

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[joocemann]

suck it and you'll see the light.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[jameskojiro]

That is exactly what happened in Naruto Episode 124 when Tsunade re-wired Kabito's nerves in his spine his brain was able to compensate really really quickly.

You can learn so much being a Narutard.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[Jarik C-Bol]

i agree, the brain is just a reflex/adaptation muscle. i remember reading about a study done, where the subjects wore prism glasses, turning there view of the world upside down.
according to the article, after a period of a few days, the subjects find that the world appears to be right side up again when wearing the glasses. removing the glasses results in the world being upside down. a few days of re-adjustment and everything is normal again.
this has always made me feel that the brain can rewire itself to make sense of new input, and makes the likelihood of the brain being able to decipher organized data from computer sources very high.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[4D6963]

That's a new sense nested inside an already existing sense. Like an HUD in your eye that would show you an infrared overlay would be like a new sense inside your sense of vision.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[Razalhague]

So, does that mean that reading a regular compass in the old-fashioned way, say, by using your eyes, qualifies as a computer-brain interface, since the device (the compass) is just using a convenient, pre-existing input mechanism to the brain (the eyes)?

Sure it does, provided that you nail the compass to your eye so that you always see it in the same position. The important thing here is that the same information gets always mapped to the same nerves.

The difference then is that the actual "sensoring" is done by the body's old hardware, so nothing new.

The difference is the same as between a FUSE driver and a kernel module.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[dzfoo]

>> Sure it does, provided that you nail the compass to your eye so that you always see it in the same position. The important thing here is that the same information gets always mapped to the same nerves.

Wow. I wasn't aware of that requirement for sensory organs.

        -dZ.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[Kagura]

If you could spin at a perfectly constant rate, you wouldn't feel dizzy (until you stopped, naturally).

Not true, because of the Coriolis effect. Unless you are a three-dimensional being spinning along your fourth axis. (I just read Flatland)

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps they could have used magnets coated in some kind of barrier that is otherwise biocompatible? You can get some very small laboratory magnetic stir bars that are entirely encased in teflon, or glass, possibly other materials.

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[Thing 1]

What would be even more awesome would be if they chose to do it to themselves with the help of some Yoga classes and a mirror. That would make for one heck of a YouTube video.

I remember reading an account of self-trepanation, back when the Internet was young (1996 or so). Here's the wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trepanation ; there's a link to a more recent account of self-trepanation: http://scienceblogs.com/neurophilosophy/2008/08/lunch_with_heather_perry.php

What I really liked about the original one that I read was, the author said "I got the bone drill, shaved my head, and was a little nervous so TOOK A HIT OF ACID TO CALM MY NERVES."

I can't imagine drilling a hole in my head while tripping. That's ... pretty scary!

And, reading a little into the article, I see that acid played a role in Heather's self-trepanation as well. Freaking hippies. :) "I need trepanation like I need a hole in my head."

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Heard about it? I read it on /.
At least twice ^_^

Re:What qualifies for new sensory organ?

[sjames]

I think the difference between "tactile feedback device" and "new sense organ" is based on how the user interacts with it. That is, the presence or absence of an "internal dialog" to use the device.

"Need to know north, let's see, the back of my ankle is buzzing so that must be north" is a "tactile feedback device.

"North is behind me" is a sense organ.

I found that by simply moving the buzzers...

[Anonymous Coward]

...from my ankle to a more "centrally located area" and I stopped caring about getting lost.

In fact, turning in circles became quite pleasurable.

Does anyone have any kleenex handy?

Re:I found that by simply moving the buzzers...

[Anonymous Coward]

huh huh huh... organ... huh huh huh...

Re:I found that by simply moving the buzzers...

[nametaken]

I'll tell you what's amazing is that what you just wrote, and the fact that we get it, demonstrates just how deeply we've all internalized OLD ass cartoon characters as outward communicators of our inner dumbass.

Re:I found that by simply moving the buzzers...

[Anonymous Coward]

How can we resist? It's even published in a magazine called Ecchi Plus...

Shouldn't it be magnetic North?

[HiChris!]

I highly doubt this thing know how to correct true North from magnetic North data. That said, they'd be quite close in most places people would actually use it.

Re:Shouldn't it be magnetic North?

[Anonymous Coward]

For the US, magnetic and true north only line up in a region aligned with Chicago. Going from the west coast to DC, you get a magnetic variance of 28 degrees difference (16 degrees off one direction in CA, 12 degrees off the other direction in DC).

Re:Shouldn't it be magnetic North?

[jbeaupre]

No, but the user might know how to correct for it.

Step 1: look up magnetic declination for your location (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/IGRF_2000_magnetic_declination.gif

Step 2: rotate the ankle bracelet to compensate.

Or stand where you know you are facing true north, then rotate anklet until it indicates true north.

Re:Shouldn't it be magnetic North?

[commodore64_love]

That might explain the comment in the article - "My mental map of DC swapped north for west." Perhaps the device isn't showing true north, but a slightly-skewed northwest. I've had similar arguments with my coworkers in this region:

"I-95 runs west and east."
"No it doesn't! It's either north or south."
"Uh yes overall, but through Baltimore it runs a west-east route. The highway lies south of Baltimore's downtown."
"You're nuts."
"Gee thanks."

Re:Shouldn't it be magnetic North?

[vlm]

Step 1: look up magnetic declination for your location (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/IGRF_2000_magnetic_declination.gif [wikimedia.org]

With only 8 transducers, thats 45 degree resolution, and per the map there are very few people living where the declination error approaches 45 degrees, or even within an area exceeding 22.5 degrees. If you somehow could detect even a 12.25 degree error, most of the worlds population would only be at most one "digit" off.

Re:Shouldn't it be magnetic North?

[Firehed]

Why not just add a GPS receiver into the mix to compensate for MN/TN separation? If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - right? It only needs to be accurate within 20 miles or so (unless you're in Antarctica or the North Pole) which should still get you easily within a degree of the offset so grabbing location from the nearest cell tower should be more than enough.

Of course, there's always the more traditional, low-tech solution of spending five bucks on a compass and a map, which usually has the magnetic declination listed somewhere if not an entire set of MN lines.

Re:Shouldn't it be magnetic North?

[ViViDboarder]

I can't tell what you're getting at exactly... I notice the same thing in DC though. Something about popping up out of a metro station and assuming a direction makes me feel like I'm moving NS but really it's WE... I don't know how to explain it really but I always feel like W is N too in DC. Strange.

Re:Shouldn't it be magnetic North?

[DRACO-]

Rotating the anklet would be useless, it always buzzes magnetic North. You could put the anklet on and sit with your shin facing North, spin the anklet and it will continue to vibrate your shin as it senses the magnetic North turning. Haven't you ever played with a compass?

If adjustment is really that necessary it must be compensated in software/the anklet's wiring.

Re:Shouldn't it be magnetic North?

[demonlapin]

More importantly, declination doesn't vary across the distances involved - declination at the Presidio may be very different from at the Mall, but it's not too far from the declination in Oakland.

Re:Shouldn't it be magnetic North?

[GameMaster]

At that point, it may be worth just replacing the present system with a GPS as the GPS system, on it's own, is probably much more accurate at calculating heading.

Re:Shouldn't it be magnetic North?

[davidsinn]

GPS can only calculate heading from motion. It would still need a compass chip in it to give you a north input.

Re:Shouldn't it be magnetic North?

[MaskedSlacker]

It buzzes when the sensor faces magnetic north. If the sensor faces magnetic north when you are facing true north (because you turned it around your leg), then BAM.

The real problem is the angular resolution of the sensor--at a 45 degree resolution, the MN/TN distinction is lost in the data noise anyway.

Re:Shouldn't it be magnetic North?

[elgreengeeto]

If the wearer was passively registering the information from the anklet, then it would truly be only 45 degree resolution. However, when wearing it, it quickly becomes habit to twist the ankle back and forth slightly, to feel the exact point at which active motors change. This way the resolution approaches something close to the actual sensing capabilities of the compass IC (minus noise from the lag of the motors spinning up and down). It's the same unconscious action by which you might tilt something at an angle to see it's surface better. To answer the magnetic vs. true north question, the fact of the matter is that it really doesn't matter WHAT it points at. We picked (magnetic) North because that's seems a good default standard in Western culture. The usefulness of the device is in having an ever-persistent point of reference. As long as that directional reference is *consistent*, it should be able to point any cardinal direction and still be integrated into ones cognitive sphere. (Disclaimer, I'm the co-developer and have a lot of experience wearing one.)

Re:Shouldn't it be magnetic North?

[Arancaytar]

Perhaps the highway has a non-Euclidean geometry? We have those around here, too. :P

Re:Shouldn't it be magnetic North?

[Segisaurus]

I'm from Baltimore. While I never had that problem as my mental direction is based of the position of the sun (in the daytime at least), I can see how some could get confused. Cause for the most part I-95 does go North/South so if your using that as a point of reference Baltimore would be "west" of I-95. Same with D.C.

I think it also has to do with the fact that most cities on the East coast were built before the grid system became popular (Where all the city blocks are Square shaped). So you tend to navigate by your position relative to some other landmark. And I-95 makes a great reference point.

If I can't see the Sun (too cloudy) or its just night time, this is how I navigate unfamiliar territory.

Re:Shouldn't it be magnetic North?

[QRDeNameland]

I grew up near an even more confusing set of highway directions...in central NJ, I-287 South turns into NJ 440 North, while your compass point due East.

Re:Shouldn't it be magnetic North?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's only 45 degree resolution if the transducers operate in a binary fashion. When a similar experiment with a belt was described (Wired magazine a couple years ago, and other places surely) the buzzing would be more intense as the buzzer was more closely aligned with North, effectively creating infinite resolution.

This is the future...

[ohsmeguk]

I've heard of people implanting tiny rare earth magnets in their fingers so they can sense current flowing through wires and magnetic fields. I would like to try it when I can be certain they won't break when they're under my skin... :P

Re:This is the future...

[jbeaupre]

You could try superglue for a temporary test.

Re:This is the future...

[vlm]

You could try superglue for a temporary test.

Latex gloves, even more temporary.

Re:This is the future...

[lattyware]

Seems like a bad idea on the basis they will eventually corrode inside you, and if you ever need an MRI you'll need to have them out before you can have it.

Re:This is the future...

[sexconker]

The MRI itself will take them out automatically.

Re:This is the future...

[Anonymous Coward]

thinking about putting a small one on my fingernail with some superglue just for shits and giggles. easy to remove with some acetone if needs be, and the nail bed seems to be a pretty sensitive area.

i'm off to find a small magnet!

Re:This is the future...

[Unordained]

Tried that. Failed to stick well enough, ripped off when even moderately close to magnetic metals. Maybe my skin's just sub-par. Problem with putting something around it to hold it on (like a bandage): that restricts its movements relative to your skin, spreads out the effect over a larger area, there's less to feel. Implanting seems much more effective, mechanically.

Re:This is the future...

[jgtg32a]

Wouldn't the nose be a better choice, most people move their arms when they walk, so you'd be getting all kinds of readings; but if its in your nose it tells you which way you are looking.

Re:This is the future...

[schlick]

Putting magnets under the skin is a horrible idea. Here's a test for you. Take that magnet and throw it in the dirt. Now look at all the iron filings stuck to it. Now imagine those iron filings burrowing through your skin as they make their way to the magnet. Not pretty.

Re:This is the future...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ouch.

Re:This is the future...

[Jared555]

You say that once when you get the MRI and once when you get the bill for a new MRI machine

Re:This is the future...

[sp332]

Here's a presentation from a woman who did it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voA7Uz7uABE She coated the magnet with gold + a layer of bio-inactive plastic, but in the end it still disintegrated.

Re:This is the future...

[jnnnnn]

Yeah.. surely just gloves with little magnets in them would be more sensible?

Re:This is the future...

[Ishindri]

Actually, the magnets are usually placed inside a silicone sheath. Of course, this too will break down over time.

Re:This is the future...

[Jarik C-Bol]

this might actually work! and, if you're feeling especially adventurous, buy a bran new drill bit slightly larger than your magnet, and spin it with your fingers to very slowly drill a hole in your nail (good way to relieve the pressure from blood blisters under the nail as well) i emphasize

*BY HAND DO NOT USE AN ELECTRIC DRILL*

it will sting like a bastard when you get through the nail, but then you can place the magnet in the hole, and super-glue over it. then your magnet is in place until your nail grows out. if your careful, you can harvest the magnet and do it again.

Re:This is the future...

[ntk]

Actually, the journalist who wrote this article about Northpaw was the same person who tried that out, too.

Mental maps...

[girlintraining]

"...my mental map of DC swapped north for west. I started getting more lost than ever as the two spatial concepts of DC did battle in my head."

And this is surprising how? If you're navigating by landmark and familiarity, you're probably going to be in for a shock when you suddenly move to a coordinate mapping system. This also shows that the creator of this device doesn't look up very often to get her bearings. Not that I'm surprised -- women will navigate first by landmarks and familiarity, and if that fails they fall back on maps. Men, on the other hand, rarely use anything but a map. If I changed a street sign outside my apartment, my male friends probably wouldn't be able to find the place anymore. My female friends, on the other hand, would show up and likely never notice the sign was changed. Insert obligatory quip about evolution of the sexes, rebuttal about stereotypes, and witty retort here. :\

Also, while I'm sure this is quite fascinating to her, the rest of us will just buy one of those $5 compass globes and stick it in the car, and it'll be cheaper than the parts to build this thing.

Re:Mental maps...

[fahrbot-bot]

...buy one of those $5 compass globes and stick it in the car...

Or Forehead.

Re:Mental maps...

[Max Threshold]

"Men, on the other hand, rarely use anything but a map. If I changed a street sign outside my apartment, my male friends probably wouldn't be able to find the place anymore."

Maybe I'm an exception, but I don't think that's true at all. I navigate entirely by landmarks. I don't even know the names of half the streets I travel on regularly. Furthermore, my mental map of the city is framed by our light rail system, major bus lines, and bike throughfares, not by the major roads carrying automobile traffic.

Re:Mental maps...

[BadAnalogyGuy]

Yeah, but those of us who drive find using street names and addresses pretty useful compared to you bus riders.

Re:Mental maps...

[Evildonald]

How to write an "Insightful" comment

1) Find a quote from the article, and claim you've always known it, and what is more everybody already knows it.
2) Make AWESOME generalisations about "how, like, men and women are different, yeah?"

Really insightful. Can we remove the current judges and get new ones?

Re:Mental maps...

[metamechanical]

Men, on the other hand, rarely use anything but a map. If I changed a street sign outside my apartment, my male friends probably wouldn't be able to find the place anymore.

Balderdash.

I navigate using a combination of landmark and maps. Like most people, in an unfamiliar area I will use maps exclusively. In an area I am acquainted with though, I pick freeway exits/turns at intersections from a map of the area in my head, but landmarks to guide me to the exact destination. I had to think for a second to come up with the road the supermarket is off of, but could tell you instantly that it is in the shopping center across from the Home Depot. I most certainly don't use any mental map to commute, that would be absurd. That's 100% landmark.

Re:Mental maps...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Not that I'm surprised -- women will navigate first by landmarks and familiarity, and if that fails they fall back on maps. Men, on the other hand, rarely use anything but a map. If I changed a street sign outside my apartment, my male friends probably wouldn't be able to find the place anymore. My female friends, on the other hand, would show up and likely never notice the sign was changed. Insert obligatory quip about evolution of the sexes, rebuttal about stereotypes, and witty retort here. :\"

But that's just not true. The differences between the male and female brains would indicate that perhaps men are *slightly* more inclined to use visual spatial thinking than are women, but the difference is tiny.

Re:Mental maps...

[Graelin]

On that note, my vision prevents me from reading most street signs far enough in advance to make traffic changes (change langes, slow down and turn, etc.) safely. So I cannot make out Elmendorf DR at 50 yards but the funny looking church, the large hill, the abandoned school are very easy to spot well off in the distance. Or maybe I just drive too fast, that's almost certainly true. I use maps whenever I can but mostly to find the landmarks I'll use to make the turn instead of the name of the street. Obviously, a good GPS would solve this problem too but I've gotten very good at this and google maps on my phone is good enough.

There are some places, like Utah, where most of the streets are named after their grid line. That changes things since I can guess that 1550 is shortly after (or before) 1500 which I just passed.

Re:Mental maps...

[A Friendly Troll]

Not that I'm surprised -- women will navigate first by landmarks and familiarity, and if that fails they fall back on maps. Men, on the other hand, rarely use anything but a map. If I changed a street sign outside my apartment, my male friends probably wouldn't be able to find the place anymore. My female friends, on the other hand, would show up and likely never notice the sign was changed.

In my experience, and pretty much the experience of the vast majority of men on this planet, it's the exact opposite, so I think you are a bit mistaken with your beliefs in your friends.

If you want your obligatory quip about evolution, here you go: men have evolved from hunters and they had to know their landscape pretty damn fucking well in order to catch that $animal, whereas women have evolved from collectors of berries who were pretty much forbidden to venture more than a minute's worth of walking away from the cave.

You seem to be a very confused young lady.

Re:Mental maps...

[commodore64_love]

I do both.

When I'm in D.C. I think in terms of the red/blue/green metro lines, but once I'm back in my car I think in terms of north, south, east, west, and beltway (to be avoided).

Re:Mental maps...

[joocemann]

didn't you mean 'stick it on our bikes'???

Re:Mental maps...

[mdmkolbe]

Same here. In fact I prefer to use Google street view to figure out a new route and use the street names only as a backup.

Re:Mental maps...

[drinkypoo]

Maybe I'm an exception, but I don't think that's true at all. I navigate entirely by landmarks.

I am the same way, I just know where stuff is. I go back to Santa Cruz (where I was born) and I can find everything but I could never tell you how to get anywhere unless it's really close to a main artery, and sometimes I get the names of those confused.

Re:Mental maps...

[Anonymous Coward]

I read an article in Scientific American about how there is a slight correlation between women navigating by landmark and men navigating directionally. However, to make that a steadfast rule isn't appropriate. If you study 100 men to determine how they navigate, slightly more than half will navigate directionally. Interestingly, gay men tend towards navigating via landmarks, and gay women tend towards navigating via cardinal directions.

Re:Mental maps...

[icebrain]

women will navigate first by landmarks and familiarity, and if that fails they fall back on maps. Men, on the other hand, rarely use anything but a map. If I changed a street sign outside my apartment, my male friends probably wouldn't be able to find the place anymore. My female friends, on the other hand, would show up and likely never notice the sign was changed.

Guess I'm a hybrid navigator then. My mental navigation system is heavily map-based--before going somewhere unfamiliar I try to build at least a rough mental map of where I'm going and where some important things are. But then, once I'm on the ground, I start to correlate landmarks and the map. Occasionally a street name will make its way into the map, but usually it's all landmarks. When I give directions, it's usually a combination of compass directions and landmarks; distances never enter the equation because I can't judge them (numerically, at least; my depth perception and ability to measure them relative to something is fine), and I don't know street names.

Example: I went to Georgia Tech for five years, and even at the end of it I couldn't name more than a handful of streets off campus. Yet I could get just about anywhere that I'd been to before. I can't even name any streets in my current neighborhood other than my own, and I've lived there for a year and a half.

My wife works entirely differently. Her navigation consists of one giant linked list of nodes/intersections, which streets connect to which other ones, and which streets landmarks are on. Maps never enter the equation.

Re:Mental maps...

[cabjf]

There are exceptions to every rule, but studies have shown that men and women remember and give directions differently. It pretty much went just like girlintraining said. Men are more likely to use maps and straight directions (first left, second right, etc), whereas women were more likely to use landmarks (left at such and such restaurant, then past the empty parking lot, etc).

Re:Mental maps...

[Daniel_Staal]

And then there are those of us who use different systems entirely. (Go about 1.5 minutes, then turn left 45 degrees...)

Re:Mental maps...

[Wolvenhaven]

I agree with this post, until I got my GPS I never knew the names of any of the roads outside the area directly around my house, I could get anywhere from where I was as long as I had been there before. It wasn't until I started driving everywhere with my GPS with it showing me the names off all the roads around me that I started being able to actually give directions to a place.

Re:Mental maps...

[NotBornYesterday]

Er, my equally anecdotal evidence says that a) men use whatever works best for us, b) landmark-based navigation works well in chaotic environments (driving in a typical New England town/city with a mishmash of street that were in no way centrally planned), and map or vector based navigation works well in more organized grid-based environments, and c) map-based navigation beats landmark-based navigation when it comes to detours.

Re:Mental maps...

[nomadic]

I get everywhere I go by following whoever looks the most interesting.

Re:Mental maps...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Men, on the other hand, rarely use anything but a map. If I changed a street sign outside my apartment, my male friends probably wouldn't be able to find the place anymore."

Maybe I'm an exception

In other words: Maybe you're female ...

Re:Mental maps...

[Shakrai]

On that note, my vision prevents me from reading most street signs far enough in advance to make traffic changes (change langes, slow down and turn, etc.) safely.

Don't take this the wrong way but it sounds to me like you have no business having a drivers license if your vision is that poor.

Re:Mental maps...

[joeyblades]

Men, on the other hand, rarely use anything but a map.

I think it's cultural.

I lived in Scotland for a while and whenever I asked for directions the men would always say something like: drive down this road a piece until you get to the Crooked Horseshoe Pub, take a right and drive to the second roundabout after the Dog and Monkey Pub. Take the third right and drive to the Old Tennents Pub. Go right at the next roundabout and drive about 3 miles. If you reach the Goose Bridge Pub you've gone too far... Stop and have a cold one, then go back about a mile or so.

Show them a map and they look at you like you just asked them to diagram a sentence in Latin... and you're likely to hear some quaint Scottish expressions...

Re:Mental maps...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're no exception. Your responding to a BS generality given in a comment on slashdot. Its like saying you're an exception because the astrology readings in the paper never apply to you.

Re:Mental maps...

[hyfe]

Maybe I'm an exception, but I don't think that's true at all. I navigate entirely by landmarks. I don't even know the names of half the streets I travel on regularly. Furthermore, my mental map of the city is framed by our light rail system, major bus lines, and bike throughfares, not by the major roads carrying automobile traffic.

Sounds like you still have an somewhat abstract mental map. It sounds awfully close to what I'm using. I'm still can't easily take directions from most my female friends though.. they'll just constantly use landmarks I have trouble finding even when I'm standing right there.. just turn right after the shop selling those cute figurines.. you see the really nice red building?.. uh, come again?

Re:Mental maps...

[Lord Ender]

And do you enjoy watching The View?

Re:Mental maps...

[ElectricTurtle]

I don't think 12 year olds and passive agressive green weenies were the target audience.

Re:Mental maps...

[sexconker]

Compass On
Apply directly to the forehead.

Re:Mental maps...

[Hognoxious]

Don't know, in some places the signs are pretty badly designed - small, low contrast - and often dirty too.

Re:Mental maps...

[Deltaspectre]

I have the same problem almost, I have to really pay attention to signs. I don't really think it's a big problem though since thankfully 99% of driving is recognizing shapes, not trying to read letters several hundred feet away while constantly trying to avoid a collision with any of these shapes I mentioned earlier. YMMV.

Re:Mental maps...

[Cyner]

Men navigate by distances, direction (vector deltas), speed, time, and other such navagational methods.
Women tend to navigate by landmarks and familiarity.

Just ask a guy and a girl (separately) to give directions to some place. The guy will usually give directions by road name (or number), distance, and left or right turns. The girl will usually identify the roads by what's on them or where they go, places to turn by a landmark, and the direction to turn by what's on that side of the road (or the opposite side).

Re:Mental maps...

[Locke2005]

Not that I'm surprised -- women will navigate first by landmarks and familiarity, and if that fails they fall back on maps. Men, on the other hand, rarely use anything but a map.

[Citation needed]

Like most men, I suck at giving directions because I can't remember the actual names of most of the streets used. Just like women, men navigate by running a sequence of events in a specific order, navigating by waypoints (landmarks) rather than absolute position. I suck at estimating the distance between landmarks, too, to the point where sometimes I get discouraged and turn around before I reach one, thinking I've already gone past it. And... (checking below belt buckle...) I'm definitely male.

Re:Mental maps...

[oqaqiq]

I think we have cultural bias here. Just think about all the people that live in a great city in Japan, with almost all the streets that have absolutely no names, and people who live there manage to do everything without problem. In fact they don't even realize this could be different.

Re:Mental maps...

[Hognoxious]

Balderdash.

I I navigate using a combination of landmark and maps.

Balderdash.

I know what anecdotal evidence is.

P.S. There have been studies that support the point.

Re:Mental maps...

[Hognoxious]

I object to this inaccurate stereotype. Where's the stop at the chip shop for a deep-fried Mars bar?

Re:Mental maps...

[onkelonkel]

You are likely an exception. My wife uses landmarks to navigate, I prefer addresses. She'll tell me to pick up my daughter at Suzy's house, assuming that I know exactly where that is because I was there once a year ago. If I ask where is that, she'll say "it's on the street by the golf course in the green house on the same side as where Bob and Judy used to live", which still hasn't conveyed any useful information to me. What I want to hear is "1234 Trent Avenue" which uniquely identifies the house. That way I'm not standing there like a dumbass in front of the wrong green house.

Re:Mental maps...

[lavacano201014]

And then there are those of us who just get an address to MapQuest.

Re:Mental maps...

[jgtg32a]

Being one of the first 5 replies to the summary helps a lot too.

Re:Mental maps...

[clone53421]

Not that I'm surprised -- women will navigate first by landmarks and familiarity, and if that fails they fall back on maps. Men, on the other hand, rarely use anything but a map.

That's not quite true. Your explanation is generally accurate for how men and women give directions, and for if they're going somewhere they've never been (or have been a few times but don't know the way by memory yet). Women will give spatial directions (turn left at the QuikTrip, turn right at the second street past the big church on the right...) whereas men will generally use street names.

However, if you've already been somewhere a few times, it doesn't matter whether you're male or female: If you've been there enough times to remember the route, you're probably going off landmarks. I know I would be, and I'm definitely male...

Re:Mental maps...

[Evildonald]

Looks like "First!" is still in vogue. If not in name, then in scoring at least.

Re:Mental maps...

[BobMcD]

"Men, on the other hand, rarely use anything but a map. If I changed a street sign outside my apartment, my male friends probably wouldn't be able to find the place anymore."

Maybe I'm an exception, but I don't think that's true at all. I navigate entirely by landmarks. I don't even know the names of half the streets I travel on regularly. Furthermore, my mental map of the city is framed by our light rail system, major bus lines, and bike throughfares, not by the major roads carrying automobile traffic.

Or MAYBE you're just not a REAL MAN!

I jest, of course. Exceptions, rules and all that.

Re:Mental maps...

[clone53421]

I don't know if you're a male or a female, but I'm male and I can definitely say that's not generally correct. If I'm unfamiliar with the location, I prefer to have street names and distances, but once I get familiar with the route, I'm going just as much off landmarks as anyone would be.

The difference lies in the direction-giving: A woman will try to explain how to get somewhere using the landmarks on her mental route, whereas a man will try to explain it using the street names. I'm not sure why this is; as I said, I'd prefer to be given street names, so it bugs me when someone gives me directions using landmarks that I'm unfamiliar with. However, once I've driven it a few times, I get my own set of mental landmarks – I wouldn't try to tell someone else how to get there from those landmarks, though, because they won't be familiar with them. In fact, if they drive there a few times, the landmarks they use might end up being completely different from the ones I use.

Re:Mental maps...

[clone53421]

How do they get mail? Do they just have to pick it up from their box at the post office?

Re:Mental maps...

[amplt1337]

Signage differs in different places, and in some places it SUCKS.
Like in New Jersey, freeway exits seem to be always behind the actual exit, so they really ought to read "You just missed exit 8!"
And Atherton, CA, has street names painted vertically in black on white posts. Not to mention that I was once totally lost at the corner of Selby and Selby (when I was really looking for a third, entirely different, Selby).

Re:Mental maps...

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you really sure about that? It's so diametrically opposite from my experiences with pretty much everyone I regularly interact with (~50 people) that since you didn't provide links to the studies I think there is a chance that you have read the studies somewhere long ago and then misremembered them. Either that, or there must be some other factor than gender at work. A cultural component maybe?

Re:Mental maps...

[steelfood]

women will navigate first by landmarks and familiarity

Or just ask someone.

Re:Mental maps...

[icebrain]

Hell, in some places the signs are non-existent due to neglect, thievery, vandalism, or collision.

Or, like in Jacksonville, you might have one on-ramp for both directions of the interstate. It eventually forks to go in the two different directions, but you dont see a sign indicating which side is which until after you've committed to one and passed the physical divider.

Re:Mental maps...

[noundi]

"...my mental map of DC swapped north for west. I started getting more lost than ever as the two spatial concepts of DC did battle in my head."

And this is surprising how? If you're navigating by landmark and familiarity, you're probably going to be in for a shock when you suddenly move to a coordinate mapping system. This also shows that the creator of this device doesn't look up very often to get her bearings. Not that I'm surprised -- women will navigate first by landmarks and familiarity, and if that fails they fall back on maps. Men, on the other hand, rarely use anything but a map. If I changed a street sign outside my apartment, my male friends probably wouldn't be able to find the place anymore. My female friends, on the other hand, would show up and likely never notice the sign was changed. Insert obligatory quip about evolution of the sexes, rebuttal about stereotypes, and witty retort here. :\

Also, while I'm sure this is quite fascinating to her, the rest of us will just buy one of those $5 compass globes and stick it in the car, and it'll be cheaper than the parts to build this thing.

That't not true. Google maps streetview is technically not a map.

Re:Mental maps...

[metamechanical]

Then why can I navigate by car around the town I grew up in without a problem in the world, but I don't know a single road name? Not a SINGLE ONE? I know a couple major routes, but exactly zero side streets. In fact, if you were to drop me back there right now, I could find my way anywhere I used to know where it was, provided the landmarks haven't changed. I didn't bother learning street names until I moved away for college.

I don't know how to convince you otherwise - when I'm driving somewhere I know, I pay little attention to where I'm going, and almost total attention to the cars around me. I only get "pulled back" to finding my way when I recognize a landmark.

I think the prime example is this: I moved recently, and after driving past my exit for the first three days, I had to force myself for the next week to find landmarks so I wouldn't miss it again. This is on a road covered in signs for my exit, in an area where I have an impeccable mental map.

Re:Mental maps...

[Arancaytar]

I'm male and navigate by landmarks the second or third time I go anywhere. It's just more effective to memorize bridges and buildings than street signs.

That's internal, though. I do have trouble making sense of directions when I haven't seen the landmarks before.

"Make a left by the tall building and drive till you see the convenience store."

"Which street is that? Does it go north or east?"

"Just make a left, it's the tallest building around."

"FFS!"

Re:Mental maps...

[Carnildo]

I'll be following the directions below after work today. What's my gender and preferred direction style? Bonus points if you can tell what store I'm shopping at.

"Head east until you reach Division, then turn left. Turn left at the light before the 'Big 5' sign. Turn left into the first parking lot after the curve."

Re:Mental maps...

[Arancaytar]

Then that phenomenon seems not specific to internal maps, and rather generally applicable to communication. Men tend to formulate the thought in abstract semantics, and women express it the way they think it.

Re:Mental maps...

[Morkano]

Not that I'm surprised -- women will navigate first by landmarks and familiarity, and if that fails they fall back on maps. Men, on the other hand, rarely use anything but a map.

[Citation needed]

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1090513897001074

As with all generalizations, it's just that: a generalization. There are lots of members of both sexes that follow the trend to one degree or another, but in general, if you had to guess a strategy used and were only given their sex for information, you can do better than chance.

Re:Mental maps...

[Anonymous Coward]

I know what anecdotal evidence is.

P.S. There have been studies that support the point.

Hm. And what is an appeal to anonymous authority? :P

Re:Mental maps...

[phantomcircuit]

I second that, I dont even know the names of the streets blocks away from where i have lived my entire life, i navigate entirely by landmarks.

Re:Mental maps...

[clone53421]

True.

I suspect it is also related to the generality that men are better communicators, while women are better listeners.

Men want to understand (and to be understood). Women want to feel (and want you to feel the same way). We've probably all heard the saying, "If a woman tells you about her problem, she doesn't want you to solve it, she wants you to listen". Of course it's not always 100% true, but it's still an accurate generalization.

Re:Mental maps...

[Anonym1ty]

Thanks... You know some of us have to live in Wisconsin.

Re:Mental maps...

[PitaBred]

Oh thank goodness! I'm not the only one who does that...

Re:Mental maps...

[lilomar]

That would make him an exception, assuming the person who is writing the horoscopes knows his/her business, they should apply to about 95% of the population.

Re:Mental maps...

[clone53421]

Exactly! The 2nd time I go somewhere, I'll go by "the tall building" and "the convenience store" because I remember them from the first time I went. The first time I go, I want the street name, because I don't know any landmarks yet.

If I was giving someone directions, I wouldn't expect them to know "the tall building" either, so it would be completely nonsensical for me to give those sort of directions. They might not even notice the tall building anyway – their mental landmark might be the grocery store across the intersection from it, once they're familiar with the route.

Re:Mental maps...

[Anonymous Coward]

assuming the person who is writing the horoscopes knows his/her business, they should apply to about 95% of the population.

What about the horoscope writers who are hermaphrodites or transexuals...

Re:Mental maps...

[clovis]

The reason we give directions in terms like "drive west for .3 miles, then angle SE for another 1.7 miles before turning east" is that they're useless instructions. No one knows which way is west when they're lost. This is done so that the other male will be exhausted before you intercept him again. At that point it's easier to take his women, beer, and food (although not necesarily in that order).

Re:Mental maps...

[fbjon]

Each house in a block has a number, each block in an area has a number, each area has a name.

Re:Mental maps...

[camperdave]

A woman will try to explain how to get somewhere using the landmarks on her mental route, whereas a man will try to explain it using the street names. I'm not sure why this is

That's easy: Maps. You can google an address. You can find an intersection on a map. You can't google "That boutique that has the mannequin with the stunning red shoes next to the flower shop" quite as effectively.

Re:Mental maps...

[belthize]

My understanding is that women navigate by discrete landmarks building up a continuous linking of landmarks.

Men navigate by way points and distances. They flag in their brain decision points and then track distance to next point.

My wife and I've compared notes while driving and that certainly seems to be the case.

The argument I've heard from an evolutionary view is women needed a very accurate mental image of nearby areas for gathernig. Men needed to be able to navigate to remote areas and return without really knowing a great deal about the intervening details.

Re:Mental maps...

[macshit]

women will navigate first by landmarks and familiarity, and if that fails they fall back on maps. Men, on the other hand, rarely use anything but a map.

Any cites for this claim? On the face of it , it sounds like bullshit...

I'm male, and I navigate almost entirely by landmarks and "familiarity", and the impression I get is that most people do the same.

Re:Mental maps...

[Anonymous Coward]

I would imagine this is a pretty common problem. Especially on multi-lane roads with any amount of traffic, traveling at 35+ mph, when the street signs are normal-sized. Sometimes they're obscured or posted in non-standard locations, too.

Same issue on a 55mph country road with tiny green street signs; you just can't read them before you're on top of them.

Re:Mental maps...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it would rather stem from differences in spatial reasoning. Men have higher spatial reasoning, allowing for better mental maps. Those with lesser spatial reasoning would fall back to something more comfortable, like landmarks.

Evolutionarily, men needed these skills for hunting & navigating, while women developed better verbal skills to further their social support networks.

Re:Mental maps...

[Rene S. Hollan]

My EX-wife was worse.

She'd ask me to drive her somewhere I had been only once, a year prior, and refuse to give me any navigational information at all, complaining about why I was not going yet, and that she'd be late. She'd argue that my insisting on either relative navigational directions, or an absolute address was stubbornness on my part to force her to think, and not believe that I hadn't the foggiest memory of where she wanted to go (likely because I didn't like the experience of being there the first time).

Like I said, EX-wife.

Things like "house with the green door at the end of the street near the top of the hill" are fine, if one (a) knows the rough area, (b) has forgotten the exact address, (c) and this is crucial also remembers that the description is unique in the context of the rough area. But damn, it's also a very inefficient way of coding an address.

Re:Mental maps...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or here in the Northern Hemisphere just observe sattelite dishs which point south

Re:Mental maps...

[joocemann]

I don't think 12 year olds and passive agressive green weenies were the target audience.

oh... I thought it might be pertinent to promote exercise and clean transportation in a country of lazy obese and environmentally reckless people.

I guess your assumptions tell me where you fit in, lazy ass fatty. Am I passive still?

Re:Mental maps...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's also the recipe to a comedic career, sadly.

Re:Mental maps...

[ElectricTurtle]

I weigh about 145 at 6' which is almost underweight on the BMI; however, I am clearly anti-green.

Firstly because most greens are bunch of ignorant sheep who want on the band wagon just to feel morally superior and don't understand jack shit about the biosphere and climatology. (You know, things like the fact that the 19th century was the coldest period in the last ten thousand years, and that any increase in temperature using the last century or two as baseline would look extreme. Never mind how much warmer the holocene maximum was, it's the end of the world!)

Secondly because the tone and direction of green trends is now solidly in the hands of corporations who are using it to sell the same old shit except now those products have been nerfed in the name of "energy efficiency" and "natural ingredients" such that now people pay more money to feel good about themselves and get things in return that fulfill their purposes half as well as they used to. Fuck that.

Re:Mental maps...

[Jarik C-Bol]

I'm a landmark man myself. i have no idea what half the streets to get to my house are named. that being said, i give very good, abet long winded directions to places.

Re:Mental maps...

[smoker2]

I agree. And the vast majority of sat navs I see are in a womans car. I can drive from one end of the country to another, with no map or sat nav, and it doesn't phase me a bit (Orlando to a friends house in Seattle and back). I don't know what my friends addresses are, but I know where they live. But I forget, girlintraining is engaged to Shrek.

Re:Mental maps...

[maxume]

Landmarks vs maps is a poor way of characterizing the difference. Women navigate using stories (or narratives, whatever), men navigate spatially. So for a woman, one landmark comes after another, but for men, one landmark is north of another.

Well, that's the stereotype anyway, I'm sure there are exceptions.

Re:Mental maps...

[smoker2]

It's only really americans who give directions in points of the compass like east and west. You would have to tell me which way was west if I was in a city. On the open road is different, especially if you have ever looked at a map or atlas, but in enclosed areas compass points are generally useless. I can miss a turn and take an unknown later one that heads in the same direction, and still know roughly how far off course I am, and how to get back on track. None of that is to do with maps or compass directions. Its called having a sense of direction. Most women would turn around and go back to the first turning because their mental "map" is inflexible. And of course, navigating by landmarks is useless unless you already know the landmarks, and if you miss one you're lost.

I am a truck driver, so I do this navigating thing a lot. Strangely, 95% of truck drivers are men, probably because we actually have to get there on time.

Just for a laugh, can you imagine America being discovered by women ? Yes, head out on that blue stuff, keep an eye out for a really big wave then turn right until you see a whale. After that just go straight on until you get really hungry.

Re:Mental maps...

[4D6963]

Yep

1) Say something true
2) ???
3) Hilarity

Re:Mental maps...

[Reziac]

[laughing] I know what you mean. I carry a permanent mapset in my head, and an address is a definite coordinate. But a description could be anywhere!

Ironically, my official street address is nowhere near my house, so I have to give landmark-based directions to visitors. But to my own mind I still live at a particular grid point.

Re:Mental maps...

[Reziac]

Maybe something like myself:

I have slight myopia -- I'm legal to drive without correction. And without correction it's not distance or objects that are a problem -- it's focus. As I've aged I've developed fixed focus. So I see the cars and the poles and lines and various other objects and landmarks, and I see the lettering on the signs -- but can't resolve it, making most signs at best semi-readable. This is quite different from folks I know who are more classically nearsighted -- for them, anything beyond a certain point blurs out of sight, so their world *ends* at that point. That isn't an issue for me; I see all the way to the horizon.

With correction the nonresolving-signs problem goes away, but then I can't read my dashboard (I see the letters but they don't resolve), because now my fixed focus is way the hell out yonder!!

Re:Mental maps...

[cerberusss]

Just for a laugh, can you imagine America being discovered by women ? Yes, head out on that blue stuff, [...] until you get really hungry.

Horny. Columbus got really horny, not hungry. This is a lesser-known and uncomfortable fact which is unfortunately not taught at school, and the cause of a great many misunderstandings.

Re:Mental maps...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's where he's getting directions to.

Re:Mental maps...

[KlaymenDK]

Come to think of it, it's actually very much like IP address space!

All they need is a DNS service...

Re:Mental maps...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, tell a just so story that feeds peoples' stupid prejudices based mostly on victorian nonsense and will thus be assumed as true - there's a strong nuance.

Re:Mental maps...

[murdocj]

Ok, there are two sets of facts that are not mutually incompatible. Yes, there has been dramatic climate change throughout Earth's history, virtually all of which has not been man-made. And yes, clearly human activity has influenced the Earth's climate in the past few hundred years. Just because one exists, that does not preclude the other.

Re:Mental maps...

[ElectricTurtle]

What bothers me most is the underlying premise that 'change is bad' as well as 'extinctions are bad'. If the macro-climatological changes are primarily anthropogenic (which considering the changes in the influence of the sun over the last few centuries is doubtful), so what? The reason life exists at all in the way it does today is due to microbes that changed the composition of the atmosphere drastically from an anoxic state to the relatively oxygen-rich state it occupies today. Should we invent a time machine and stop these out-of-control life forms from radically changing the environment and causing a mass extinction of other bacteria? Why not, who needs animals when you could have anaerobic bacteria forever.

Change, even when caused by the byproducts of a set of organisms, even when that causes a mass extinction, is not categorically bad. Most humans are so sentimental that they have no vision. They become attached to whatever animals they think are cute and cuddly and think that those animals should live forever, even when the environment changes and the species are just simply not viable anymore. That's how life, natural selection and adaptation work. 99% of species that have lived on the Earth are now extinct. People need to get over all their subjectivity about this and move on. Extinction happens for a reason, and there IS NO MORALITY TO THE CAUSE.

There is a trend lately in the behavior of humanity to try to freeze the progress of changes in the biosphere because (I believe) subconsciously people are afraid of what form it will take subsequent to those changes. They don't like the fact that their "favorite animals" like pandas and eagles are barely hanging on whereas cockroaches and crows are doing well. They're afraid of coastlines changing like somehow we can keep the same geography forever. Maybe we can think of a way to blame plate tectonics on industries too. The planet and its life are not some kind of static work of art hanging in a museum (although if you're a creationist you might think that), it's constantly changing, always has, and will until the sun swallows it. The planet produced us too.

Re:Mental maps...

[joocemann]

Yeah... you're so right. fuck bikes.

I'm so glad you've proven yourself. :rolleyes:

If you don't believe the science, go reproduce it you lazy fuck. Oh, right, you won't even ride a bike. I shouldn't expect much out of you.

Re:Mental maps...

[ElectricTurtle]

Where did I say anything about not believing the science? Nice strawman, go put it in a field somewhere. I said I didn't like the social consciousness or consumer trends that stem from the 'green movement'. I also parenthetically referenced actual climatological facts that others ignore. At no time did I say "I don't believe in theory x ." However you're too lazy to address my points, so you made up one that was convenient. Then you call me lazy. I believe the term for that is "projecting." Maybe you should try to find a therapist to help you sort that out.

Re:Mental maps...

[BoothbyTCD]

In Ireland they like to give directions that include things that aren't there anymore: 'Well you gown the road and turn left at the old church...that is to say the church isn't there anymore, but turn where it used to be.' My wife didn't believe me till someone gave directions on out honeymoon to 'go past the pink house. Now you can't see the house from the road but...'

Re:Mental maps...

[joocemann]

Better yet, lets talk about your original point: attacking the promotion of using bikes.

Then you divert to 'ignorant hippies'.

How about admitting you're an asshole and we move on from there?

Re:Mental maps...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, never have I read so much unfounded bullshit on gender difference in my life. You people should get out and meet others of the opposite sex, you might be surprised.

Re:Mental maps...

[TempeTerra]

I wouldn't normally lower myself to this kind of stereotyping... but on the other hand, in my experience guys would always know where east is, and girls never would. So there.

True North???

[Cassini2]

the ability to always know true north ... electronic compass

I've been to Northern Canada. A compass points to MAGNETIC North. True North is at the North pole, the point on which the earth spins. At true north, the sun never sets, and sometimes never rises for days on end. In summer, it has the longest days in the world. In winter, the longest nights. Magnetic north is not the same place at all ...

Magnetic North has some interesting properties too. Amongst others, the Magnetic south and north poles move around, periodically flip, and do not pass through the center of the earth.

Re:True North???

[Monkeedude1212]

I think they meant True North being "True Magnetic North" and not what "They thought was North" - which is entirely the fault of the people reporting, because a compass doesn't tell you True North.

But a GPS system could - why not make an App for an IPhone

Re:True North???

[JWyner]

The only person to ever mention "true" north is the Slashdot poster. TFA never describes true north, and actually specifically states that they are using magnetic north. I am not entirely sure *why* they went out of their way to add the "true" and make the description *untrue*, but thought it worth giving credit to the actual science writer for understanding the difference...

Re:True North???

[T-Bone-T]

I believe the iPhone 3GS built-in compass app already does this.

Re:True North???

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot editors are dunces, that's why. This is a neat hack though, I hate walking around looking at the GPS display.

Re:True North???

[QuantumRiff]

And what a pain in the ass that would be! True north is different from magnetic north depending on WHERE you are measure it from. So that whole ankle thing would have to have a GPS or something, to know how far off of magnetic north to point...

Also, think of how hard it would be to find True north in Australia. Now Magnetic south, that would be easy.. (or do AUS compasses just have the other part of the dial weighted, so the point south.. i've never been sure on that one...)

Re:True North???

[clone53421]

But a GPS system could

Only if it also had a magnetic compass in it.

Re:True North???

[Anonymous Coward]

It's simple and inexpensive to add a GPS to the device and look up the magnetic deviation based on your current location. Voila, True North.

Re:True North???

[Anonymous Coward]

But a GPS system could

Only if it also had a magnetic compass in it.

Or you walk 10 feet in a straight line.

Re:True North???

[ebuck]

At true north, the sun never sets, and sometimes never rises for days on end.

I personally would like to see a Sun that never sets and yet only rarely rises.

Re:True North???

[rohan972]

It is "true" north as opposed to the "false" north previously used, ie: west.

Sheesh, it's like you expect words to convey actual meaning or something. "When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less" - Humpty Dumpty

Re:True North???

[clone53421]

Or you walk 10 feet in a straight line.

While pointing the device "straight ahead".

its called...

[Anonymous Coward]

situation awareness. Being aware of your surroundings and directions is always a handy thing.

Being lost & confused is no way to go thru life, son.

I recall the study with the compass belt

[sacremon]

It was posted here two and a half years ago.

RT Original FA

[FredMertz]

The article refers to the FeelSpace project as the originators of this idea. Wired wrote a more in-depth story on FeelSpace back in 2007 that is still available online.

The net of it, which I found fascinating, was the idea that brain is not "hardcoded" to the standard 5 senses of input, but rather can potentially integrate and synthesize additional sensory type data. This idea is at also the root of technologies like BrainPort, "seeing" with the tongue for the visually impaired.

How is this different from holding a Compass?

[popo]

Why is this a different "sense" organ? Because it uses the sense of "touch"?

Is a handheld compass also an "on-body" circuit? How about a handheld electronic compass that beeps when you're pointing north?

This story is a nothingburger. The concept here appears to be "but this was strapped to the writers' ankle". As if the pseudo-prosthetic reference has relevance here. The writer would have experienced the same revelations of orientation with dashboard GPS.

Re:How is this different from holding a Compass?

[joocemann]

I don't think you understand what is really going on here. This device does not present data that is interpreted by consciousness, like you would by seeing street signs or looking at a GPS. The user isn't deliberately sensing the signals and thinking 'ok, now THAT buzz means i'm going north'. Rather the user senses north in what is better described as 'instinct'.

You don't shiver (move muscles to generate heat) when it is cold because your consciousness thinks "oh, I sense cold--- i should jiggle my muscles to warm up a little". You shiver without control, your are uncontrollably forced to do so by instinct.

Re:How is this different from holding a Compass?

[dyingtolive]

It is overloading the function of touch to allow for it to be meaningful in ways other than conventionally allowed. Additionally, there may be psychological differences to having it provide constant tactile feedback and it being a separate thing that you look down upon. Typically people mentally associate location with sight (at least, I know I do). If I'm mixed up enough to not know which way I'm facing, I look at a compass if I have one. If not, I look at my watch to see if the sun is setting or rising, and then look to see where it is.

Admittedly they're hyping it up to make it more grandiose than it really is, but imagine if you will, taking this general idea and building on it, providing a more thorough navigation system that you don't have to hold in your hands. The way that meaningful things are invented is by usually taking a simple or underwhelming idea and then adding to it. Some sort of "Oh, why didn't I think of that?" sort of thing. Unless of course, you think that the wheel was overrated too.

Re:How is this different from holding a Compass?

[Anonymous Coward]

Having worn a Northpaw (albeit briefly) myself, I can tell you the difference is significant, even leaving out the bit about how a dashboard GPS doesn't help you when walking, biking, or taking public transit (or someone else's car). It's the difference between push and pull information. A handheld device of any kind means that you have to look at it (at minimum) to get North; you've got to decide you need to know, and act. The anklet pushes the information to you constantly, and over time you can become unaware of the fact that you're getting North from a vibration, you just know where it is.

Re:How is this different from holding a Compass?

[pavon]

It is different because you have constant sensory input. It is the difference between sensing temperature with your skin, and by looking at a thermometer. You become aware of changes in temperature immediately whether you were thinking about it or not.

With this device, you become "intuitively" aware of what direction you are facing all the time, whether you are actively navigating somewhere or just walking around a building. It becomes part of your situational awareness rather than a tool you can use when you need it. Because it is always present it changes how you think about navigating, and the mental models that you build up as you move around, because you now include (accurate) direction in everything. Alot of people don't think about direction at all, or only do when they are on major streets that align with the grid. Very few people think in terms of cardinal direction when they are indoors, and often simplify direction when on windy roads. This device changes how they think in those situations.

Re:How is this different from holding a Compass?

[mcrbids]

Why is this a different "sense" organ? Because it uses the sense of "touch"?

Because to the user, it quickly stops feeling like a "touch" and becomes much more automatic. The end user literally stops feeling the "buzz" and instead it becomes more like a low-level "I know where North is" type of feeling as the brain rewires itself to accommodate this new input.

Once this has happened, it really feels like a new sense.

As posted elsewhere, similar experiments have been done with blind people and a buzzing sensor on the tongue. After acclimation, they quite literally begin to "see" and even stimulate the parts of the brain typically used for visual processing, despite it all being done by the sense of "touch" through the tongue.

Is a handheld compass also an "on-body" circuit? How about a handheld electronic compass that beeps when you're pointing north?

This story is a nothingburger. The concept here appears to be "but this was strapped to the writers' ankle". As if the pseudo-prosthetic reference has relevance here. The writer would have experienced the same revelations of orientation with dashboard GPS.

In both of the examples you gave, there is a clear sense of "Look here to get this information". In the OP, the user loses the input as a sense of "feeling" and it becomes far more automatic.

I'll get off your lawn now, mmkay?

Re:How is this different from holding a Compass?

[jmhoule314]

IANANB but there is a big difference between a compass/gps and what the article is about. The biggest difference is that you don't get to control the ankle prosthetic. The brain is forced to process this stimuli every time you face north. The gps on the other hand can easily be ignored. The brain is very good at rewiring itself and from the layman's neurobiology I have read there is very little difference between the senses at the level of neuron(except smell, i think). Therefore, the brain should have no problem interpreting novel recurring signals as a new sense. Also, read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

And cochlear implants are just electric shocks in your ear. Are you saying that people with cochlear implants cant hear?

Re:How is this different from holding a Compass?

[pla]

Why is this a different "sense" organ? Because it uses the sense of "touch"? Is a handheld compass also an "on-body" circuit?

Evolutionarily, we at least have the vestiges of a "sense" of magnetic bearing - our brains contain tiny magnetite crystals, similar to (though much smaller and fewer) those found in birds, which do function to give them a sense of absolute direction. So whether or not we can reactivate that sense, we at least (probably) have the underlying wiring necessary to use it.

As for the cross-modality of this... Judging by TFA and other similar experiements about which I've read, I would say that we can indeed awaken that sense by providing an alternate means of inputting the relevant data (in this case, via touch).

But to compare this to looking at a normal compass, the biggest difference, I would say, comes from it providing constant and passive feedback about the local magnetic environment. Looking at a compass will indeed tell you which way to call "North", but you don't "experience" it as anything but a name for the way the needle points. If instead, you always had an accurate sense of North, I would expect it to affect you much more strongly - Your proprioception would suddenly include an absolute orientation rather than merely relative positioning.

Re:How is this different from holding a Compass?

[elgreengeeto]

From sensebridge.net/northpaw: "What makes it way more awesome than a regular compass? Persistence. With a regular compass the owner only knows the direction when he or she checks it. With this compass, the information enters the wearer's brain at a subconscious level, giving the wearer a true feeling of absolute direction, rather than an intellectual knowledge as with a regular compass." I wore my North Paw everyday for several months, and I didn't feel these effects until several weeks of wearing. But ultimately, *feeling* North every instant that one wears the device is fundamentally different than periodically glancing at a display and thinking about one's orientation. Whether or not a cognitively integrated haptic display is a (psuedo-)prosthesis is a claim I don't really care to support or to deny. Building the North Paw was lots of fun and wearing it has been an absolutely fascinating new way to experience the world and explore the plasticity of my brain.

Re:How is this different from holding a Compass?

[WasteOfAmmo]

I see your basic point but I mostly disagree for you. If you were simply to strap the device on for a few minutes or hours and play with it then I would agree completely with your assessment. However, if the subject were to continue to wear the device day after day for a longer period of time (weeks?) then would there be a point where the subject is essentially no longer aware of the device but still aware of the sensory information. In other words the "prosthetic" may be come one with the person. The article seems to allude to this happening. At the point were this happens I would say that the device could be considered a new sense.

Sure the device is using an established channel for transmitting its information but the information itself is not related to the channel being used (sense of touch in this case). At what point would the brain rewire itself to essentially consider the new input (a compass in this case) a new sense and direct wire it (sense to reaction) rather then simply translate a "touch" in a certain spot to mean "North." What would be even more interesting is the affects of removing the device after (if) the brain accepted it and used it as a new sense. What sort of "loss" or disorientation would the person experience.

With a hand held compass or a dash mounted GPS I would argue that you are not designating continuous attention to it and therefore it continues to be an external reference. Much like looking at your TV everyday would not make you feel like the TV is part of you and the information coming in is processed as a sense. With a strapped on device or some similar prosthetic continually providing input I would think that your brain would continually process the information (read as 'pay attention to it') and therefore eventually internalize the device. Of course the counter argument to this is the bulge of my wallet poking me in the backside as I sit at my desk all day. To my knowledge my wallet has not become a part of my personae yet (if that is the right word).

[I'm posting this anyway but wtf is up with the removing empty lines in POT postings in the preview???]

Re:How is this different from holding a Compass?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not necessarily true... this experiment provides CONTINUOUS stimuli, so you would constantly be aware of the direction north. My guess is that this form of constant feedback would entice the mind into integrating the data with other measures of spaciality. A GPS would only provide the sensory stimuli when you look at it - without the constant nature, I doubt the mind would integrate the data at all.

Re:How is this different from holding a Compass?

[Arancaytar]

No she couldn't, because you don't look at a dashboard all the time. It's a polling, query-based information source. The touch sense is passive, and the sensor becomes a background awareness.

With sufficient resolution (and after a lot of training) the sense of direction might be able to reach the same level as the balance organ in the ear.

Re:How is this different from holding a Compass?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is different because you KNOW north without thinking about it. If you had a dashboard GPS you would have to actually think about asking a device for directions.
A device that beeps for north, in your one ear, does not produce results because you have to ask for directions.
Having a constant update around your ankle gives you the ability to already know North without thinking to ask for it.

You and that first commenter to the article, Nathan, need to read for understanding.

Re:How is this different from holding a Compass?

[suomynonAyletamitlU]

Why is this a different "sense" organ?

Because that's what that phrase means. It interprets data meaningfully and delivers it to your brain so you can use it, or not, at your discretion. You switch between using it and not using it trivially, as opposed to...

Is a handheld compass also an "on-body" circuit?

Do you have to take an action to use it? Yes? Then no.

How about a handheld electronic compass that beeps when you're pointing north?

Yes, but it would be a much less useful one.

The writer would have experienced the same revelations of orientation with dashboard GPS.

Only assuming that they were continually aware of said GPS every moment, or could be (especially without feeling that they look stupid, which would stop people from doing so under many circumstances). They would then, as did the writer (I assume, I have not RTFA), have to integrate that into their memory, which for a GPS device, would probably be "Look at GPS. Look back up at building. Look back down at GPS to make sure. Puzzle over the matter. Look at building again. I guess that's north, huh." However, since the device doesn't require taking a critical sense away from examining the issue at hand (or foot), but uses touch instead, it would be more like "Stare at the building in puzzlement, while walking past and simultaneously double-checking your ankle-meter, and yup, that's north alright, huh."

Important? It isn't really. It's a neat experiment though.

Re:How is this different from holding a Compass?

[macshit]

The writer would have experienced the same revelations of orientation with dashboard GPS.

You seem to be trying to play the crusty curmudgeon, but I think you're quite wrong.

The supposition is that having a "sensory" input attached full time in a way that it doesn't need conscious attention can actually make the brain start to process the information in a way similar to what happens with your normal senses -- after a while you start to "feel" it, instead of just "knowing" it. This is not a unique claim; the brain seems quite flexible in how it adapts to sensory input.

Whether you believe that or not, it is interesting.

Re:How is this different from holding a Compass?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is like a different "sense organ" because, over time and in specific situations, the brain will give the user a "sense" or "feel" for north, without the user realising it is all due to a vibration of her ankle. The idea is that the brain synthesises the true sense (the vibration) with the users interpretation of this vibration (north is that way), and the user forgets and maybe even stops feeling the vibration.

In contrast, a handheld electric compass is unlikely to generate this synthesis because a) the direction must be interpreted; and b) the sensation is not continuous i.e. you are not looking at the compass all the time.

There has recently been some research into using this property of the brain to allow blind people some semblance of sight through a patch which applies an electric current over a grid (sort of like a pixel grid) based on output from a camera. Also, I recall reading somewhere that once we become experienced drivers of cars we treat the cars like extensions of our own bodies (not surprising considering how comfortable one is with one's own car vs. a new car, and how driving becomes largely subconscious - how many times have you completely forgotten the drive to work?).

Tenuously related question...

[shic]

What is the best compass technology available today? A magnetised needle is so, erm 20th century - I'd expect a solid state mechanism to identify orientation by now... it's an application I'd like my mobile phone to have.

Re:Tenuously related question...

[Anonymous Coward]

magnetometer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetometer

I know its used in airplanes, at the very least.

Re:Tenuously related question...

[Anonymous Coward]

it's an application I'd like my mobile phone to have.

There's one in the new iPhone 3GS.

Re:Tenuously related question...

[jimmyswimmy]

Tempted to reply http://justfuckinggoogleit.com but I'll answer instead of being a [total] dick.

You are probably not interested in the "best" "compass" technology today, since you want something for your phone. There are plenty of solid state solutions to magnetic field detection, one cheap one is available from Honeywell, a magnetoresistive bridge circuit which provides 3D field measurement - the HMC1043. I had a watch with one in it for awhile. It's a 1kohm bridge, which explains why it's not in your cell phone and why my watch battery never lasted very long. Much easier to use the older style watch with the little needle in it. I could wind that up and know which way is North forever (except at night).

Back on topic, I am tempted to build a device which would provide real-time haptic feedback of direction. I wonder if the constant tapping that "this side is North" would feel weird. Or when I would get tired of charging the battery.

Re:Tenuously related question...

[mdmkolbe]

Casio has digital compasses in a number of their "Pathfinder" watches. For example the PAG40B-2V. However those watches tend to be a bit pricey ($250-$500) and bulky (in part due to the solar panel, barometer, altimeter and temperature sensors that are also in the watches).

Re:Tenuously related question...

[joeyblades]

The iPhone already has an integrated magnetic digital compass...

Re:Tenuously related question...

[jellomizer]

but you can get a good magnetic needle compass for like $5.00

Re:Tenuously related question...

[Beardo the Bearded]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=watch+as+compass

If you know the time, you know your direction. Normally I wouldn't reply with lmgtfy, but you seem to be someone who'd like to know that url.

Re:Tenuously related question...

[eh2o]

Lots of products have solid state compasses. The cheap ones are 2-axis and also need an accelerometer to compensate for platform pitch/roll, and also have an undefined heading when tilted exactly 90 degrees. If they don't include the accelerometer then it has to be held level to get an accurate reading (just like an old needle compass).

All compasses are slow and basically require the platform to be stationary for say, 20-50 msec, so if your platform is expected to be undergoing any significant motion you need a unit that integrates gyros also with a kalman filter, e.g., http://vectornav.com/products/74-vn-100

Re:Tenuously related question...

[clone53421]

Whoosh.

Re:Tenuously related question...

[Arancaytar]

On a clear day.

Re:Tenuously related question...

[jimmyswimmy]

hahaha, great response to me being a jerk. Still doesn't work so good at night though. :) Neat site, I enjoyed the animation.

Re:Tenuously related question...

[Anonymous Coward]

Any magnetometer would do as long as it's sensitive enough, so the most "high tech" compass would be based around a SQUID ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQUID ) or SERF ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SERF ) magnetometer. They may not be very portable, however, seeing that the SQUID needs to be cooled to cryogenic temperatures and the SERF uses a lot of lasers. A Hall effect compass would be more practical.

Sense Heading!

[Anonymous Coward]

Your skill in Sense Heading has improved (19)

Don't need electronics for that

[Haxamanish]

When I was a teen, I always consciously kept track where the North was. Every time I made a turn, I would adjust my imaginary compass - yeah I was some kind of freak. I would also make note of the orientation of some landmarks in every city. After a while, it became an automatism, now (over 20 yrs later) I often amaze people by pointing where the North is with very good accuracy without using a compass. It always works, but if I have been a passenger in a car (or other transport) it takes about half an hour after arriving before I know where the North is. Extra bonus: if the sun is visible, I can read the time of day from its position. I guess everybody can train it with a little bit of effort.

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[diskofish]

A half hour? Why can't you just look up at the sky and see where the sun is and deduce where the sun is?

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[Haxamanish]

Well, the sun is not always visible, due to clouds or before sunrise/after sunset. Also I would need to know what time it is to deduce the North from the position of the sun and I don't wear a watch.

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[Anonymous Coward]

Why can't you just look up at the sky and see where the sun is and deduce where the sun is?

I don't know, my powers of deduction aren't on the level of Sherlock Holmes'.

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[Deltaspectre]

Phew, good thing you can tell the time of day from the sun's position!

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[onkelonkel]

"Why can't you just look up at the sky and see where the sun is"

Maybe he lives in Seattle?

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe it's cloudy... or dark.

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[American Terrorist]

I'm pretty much the same as far as telling direction. The only part of the summary I found amusing was the fact that the lady didn't already know which direction was north in her hometown. Lots of people I know are like that unfortunately. This is a pretty basic skill that I'm pretty sure everyone was adept at >50 years ago; look how far we've come.

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[clone53421]

I always consciously kept track where the North was. Every time I made a turn, I would adjust my imaginary compass - yeah I was some kind of freak.

That would work well in cities where streets were mostly straight... winding roads would make it a nightmare, I think.

It always works, but if I have been a passenger in a car (or other transport) it takes about half an hour after arriving before I know where the North is.

Wait... how does that work? Assuming you're not using the sun, how does half an hour help you figure out which way is North?

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[Rorschach1]

I tend to do this too (except I get really screwed up in the southern hemisphere), but I can fully understand the part about conflicting mental maps.

There's a campground out in the Mojave desert that I've been going to since I was little. Just over the ridge from the campground is a canyon that ends in a (usually dry) waterfall.

For years I'd tried to find a way down. Even after I learned how to rappel I decided it was too risky. And then, while out hiking one day, I somehow wound up off by 90 degrees in my mental map and thought I was somewhere else entirely when I came across a waterfall.

I looked it over for a few seconds, climbed down, and went on my way. Didn't realize for several minutes that it was the same waterfall I'd failed to find a way down for years.

The influence of that map in my head is apparently so strong that when I thought I was somewhere else, I saw the waterfall in a completely different way. If you'd just dropped me there I'd have immediately realized where I was, but having been off-course for a mile or two I'd generated a new branch on my map of the canyon and was absolutely convinced I was somewhere else.

That 'other' branch of the canyon is still there in my mental map. I know it's wrong, but it's still in there.

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[osu-neko]

Wait... how does that work? Assuming you're not using the sun, how does half an hour help you figure out which way is North?

I think what he means here is (guessing based on the fact that I'm mostly the same), you can figure it out pretty much instantly (and he probably is using the sun), it just takes a half hour before you "just know" rather than have to stop and figure it out. When you're like this, you don't stop and examine the sun position or whatever to determine which way is north, it's just more of a constant awareness of the fact, almost a physical feeling of "northness" in a given direction. It takes about a half hour after you arrive someplace new before this "sense" kicks in. Until then, you have to stop and think about it rather than it being a continuous, automatic awareness.

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[lpp]

All the more important to know where the sun is... else you are likely to be eaten by a grue.

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[clone53421]

Yes, but according to his other comment:

Also I would need to know what time it is to deduce the North from the position of the sun and I don't wear a watch.

So that makes it sound like he's not going off the sun. He needs to know either North or what time it is; if he knows neither he can't use the sun's position. Unless he can determine, by the motion of the sun in half an hour's time, approximately what time it is and thus know approximately which way is north. That might be the case, but I was curious enough to want him to clarify.

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[fsiefken]

Hi Haxamanish, How accurate is your clock based on your sense of North and Sun when it's sunny and you are in familiar territory? Half an hour? 15 minutes?

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[Idiomatick]

Being a male you also have a compass in your nose. All guys have a small natural magnet in their nose which allows you to sense north. By being mindful of which direction north is for an extended period of time you were likely unwittingly training yourself to listen to this sensation.

While I was traveling in Italy for a month my dad thought it was a fun game to ask what way north was even after being asleep in the car for an hour and i could get within 10degrees 80% of the time. I'm sure with training or modification (increasing the structure i dunno) you could use this much more effectively. Maybe even being able to identify metals with just your nose. (People that embedded magnets in their fingers were able to do this).

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[Anonymous Coward]

As a satellite engineer I need to know what direction south is. After a few years of being on the job I found that I could determine which direction was south without checking my compass. Frequently I am within 3-4 degrees of my targeted satellite. It really did become a 6th sense, I sort of "feel" which way I need to set up my gear. When I talk to my colleagues it is a not an unusual thing for those of us in this field.

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[Reziac]

I tend to do the same thing. I don't get lost. I may not know exactly where I am but I always know pretty much which way I want to go, based on my sense of direction (and the general and specific maps I carry in my head) -- I almost always know which way is north, without really thinking about it.

I've found it's latitude-dependent, tho -- grew up in MT, and first time I drove from MT to SoCal, starting at about the halfway point, I could feel the world "rotating" around me until by the time I reached San Diego, I was completely convinced that the sun should come up over the ocean! It took several months of living in SoCal before I had my directions square to the world again. (The sensation was especially strong when I was lying down.)

However, trips to the east or west don't seem to affect it.

I also have good timesense (visible sun or not). Now that you mention it, I wonder if the two go together, maybe a dual sensing of the earth's rotation and magnetic fields.

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[maxume]

Someone sure spoon fed you a shovel full.

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[Idiomatick]

http://www.wired.com/bodyhack/2006/11/you_are_a_cybor/
http://www.virtualworldlets.net/Resources/Hosted/Resource.php?Name=ESP-Magnetic

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[maxume]

I was referring to the comments about the nose, and less about the willingness of people to stick stuff under their skin.

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[Idiomatick]

That's be the first link. It isn't somehting everyone has in meaningful amounts mind you. Certain groups of jungle people (south americans) have it in greater quantities since it was very useful to their forefathers. Think of it as a rare genetic trait like tetrachromats (people that see in rgbs rather than rgb).

Re:Don't need electronics for that

[maxume]

If you go down the rabbit hole, you will find that the nose stuff is a tenuous bunch of speculation (I did this after I first replied, so don't give me too much credit), that you apparently decided to amplify into 'all guys have'.

It sounds neat, but the Wired article, and the stuff it cites, say very little. I can't access the Nature article that starts it all, but the 26 years of apparent silence since it was published do say something.

I can haz

[Itninja]

"I had wrong assumptions I didn't know about ... I returned home to Washington DC to find that, far worse than my old haunt San Francisco, my mental map of DC swapped north for west."

.....What?

Re:I can haz

[clone53421]

Alas, someone modded you "redundant", but I had the same reaction. "Swapped" is not the word she was looking for.

    W
N –|– E
    S

...?

As the crow flies

[Anonymous Coward]

I follow the developments on alternative sensory input devices closely. One of the more remarkable developments is vision through the tongue http://discovermagazine.com/2003/jun/feattongue .. it seems that blind people can failry quickly 'see' their environments where electronic impulses from a camera are transmitted through the brain via the tongue. After some training, these people can actually learn to read, and investigations into the brain show that parts of the vision system indeed retrieve their input from the tongue, a taste organ.

Now, with this compass bracelet, and the compass belt from a couple of years back, it's a different thing. It confuses people since we were never wired in our brains to handle magnetic data. We are visually oriented, and process data for movement from one location to another one nearby. Using a coordinate system is confusing since we people always center the world around ourselves, and this would mean that we constantly have to re-evaluate our world view at every new location.

Some animals do use magnetic fields to navigate their worlds, but are generally not navigating the world plane full of obstacles, but rather fly straight lines through the sky, or swim in the water.

 

Re:As the crow flies

[clone53421]

After some training, these people can actually learn to read, and investigations into the brain show that parts of the vision system indeed retrieve their input from the tongue, a taste organ.

Hmm, I'm going to be extremely pedantic and point out that although the tongue is typically considered a "taste organ", they're not using the sense of taste. The tongue is just as much a part of your sense of touch as any other part of your body (well, most any part...), and that's the sense which is being utilized in this case.

Much easier way to do the same thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Get an iPhone 3GS and write a little app that regularly emits a ping sound at eight different frequencies depending on the direction. It's not quite as 'direct', but the brain would figure it out quickly enough. And wearing an earbud is less likely to get you arrested at an airport than a giant vibrating ankle-bracelet with black boxes and wires.

Re:Much easier way to do the same thing

[omnichad]

But you can't wear earbuds while driving (legally, anyway).

Why not use a compass?

[TechnologyResource]

I believe a compass and a gps will tell you "true north." Why reinvent the wheel?

Re:Why not use a compass?

[AndrewNeo]

This would be more like replacing your feet for a wheel. Anyone can look at a compass or a GPS, but neither make you constantly aware of your heading without thinking about it (unless you're reading the device every second)

North Paw

[EricBoyd]

Some friends and I are the creator of the North Paw compass anklet. You can check out our website at sensebridge, or read all of our hack notes on the noisebridge wiki: compass vibro anket. You can purchase North Paw kits from us for $95, and then you don't have to take Quinn's word for what it's like to wear one :-)

Re:North Paw

[joeyblades]

This should complement my House Arrest Ankle Bracelet quite nicely...

Re:North Paw

[VShael]

I was going to buy one, but luckily you also included a page on "items you will need".
I'm afraid I'm not one of those geeks who owns a soldering iron, nor do I have any interest in buying one and learning how to use it.

I could be wrong, but you might sell more of them if no soldering was required by the buyer.

Re:North Paw

[MadUndergrad]

I've got to get me one of these. Any idea when you're likely to have more kits for sale?

Saskatoon

[Relden]

I've lived in Southern Ontario most of my life and have a fairly good sense of direction. I usually know where north is.I wonder if this is more a function of memory than an innate ability: if I am a passenger in a car and fall asleep, I'll be lost when I wake up until I see enough visual cues to reestablish my knowledge of where north is. The same happens if I'm driving through a subdivision with lots of curved streets. A couple of decades ago I moved to Saskatoon in western Canada. I was lost. It wasn't the kind of random sense of being lost you get when you move to the new place. My sense of direction was completely reversed. I'd go south instead of north, east instead of west, not east instead of north or south instead of west. One day, I realized that this probably had to do with the rivers. I have usually lived near rivers, in places where I can actually see the river most days. In Southern Ontario, most of the rivers flow north-to-south. In Saskatoon, the river flows south-to-north. I think I had come to use rivers as mnemonic cues for direction. As soon as I realized this, my mental map of Saskatoon reoriented itself and I was never lost again.

ooh

[nomadic]

Smision?

L'Efant was an Evil Bastard

[AP31R0N]

i live outside of DC. Driving in that cluster frak is a pain. Street names are confusing, they don't align from block to block, it's not remotely grid like, few places to u-turn. As much as i dislike taking the metro in, driving is just painful.

I've had a similar geographical awakening.

[Fallon]

I moved to Colorado Springs about a year ago, and it's done wonders for aligning my landmark based navigation with a compass. All I have to do is look up find the massive mountain range running due North/South that's usually due West of me.

It's really made me much more aware of compass directions. I now give directions based off the compass, rather than left/right.

That's silly

[Anonymous Coward]

How's using TOUCH for directional information any different than using a traditional compass and SIGHT for directional information?

Re:That's silly

[pwfffff]

Yeah it's like this 'internet' thing. WTF is the difference between sending an 'electronic mail' and good old paper mail for information transfers?! So silly.

Re:That's silly

[clone53421]

A "sense" isn't something you check. It's something you have. (Push vs. pull, if you're familiar with computer jargon. The information is constantly given to you, vs. having to get it periodically when you're thinking of it.)

You don't have to mentally check your tongue to find out what your food tastes like. You don't have to stop and think to make sure you're not a few degrees off vertical in case you need to rebalance or you'll fall.

Now, you probably don't have to check your watch to know that it's almost 3:17 if you just checked it about a minute ago and it was 3:15. If it's been a while, though, your "sense" of the time has faded and it needs to be refreshed. If you could somehow have the time constantly conveyed (perhaps your watch could poke your wrist gently to indicate the positions of the hands), you'd get so used to it that you wouldn't have to think about the time. You'd just always know it. That would be a "sixth sense". Looking at your watch isn't.

Her argument against the device

[GodfatherofSoul]

Mental maps of places aren't like GPS maps. They record limited data to get you from place to place. Knowing that the interstate has a 2 degree kink 57 miles into your trip does nothing but waste brain cycles. Trying to use precision input for our imprecise cognition is a poor coupling.

The Incident

[No Lucifer]

The device also detects 'the specific places where infrastructure interferes with the earth's magnetic fields'

Like the Swan hatch?

A better sensor for this project...

[eh2o]

The problems mentioned in TFA including tilt error and local magnetic disturbances (to some extent) are solved by using an integrated 3-axis gyro+accelerometer+magnetometer unit, such as this one: http://vectornav.com/products/74-vn-100

True its not cheap, but if I'm getting a new sensory organ I'd like it to be high quality... :)

Re:A better sensor for this project...

[leonardluen]

However the local magnetic disturbances however are giving you sensory information. maybe it doesn't accurately point north around them, however it does tell you you are near a large magnetic or electrical source. which itself is information you don't usually get from your normal senses. i would find sensing that sort of interesting itself.

Upside down

[Anonymous Coward]

So does she get really confused when her legs are in the air and the sensor is upside down? ;)

Lost in DC?

[lucas_picador]

How could anyone lose track of cardinal directions in DC, even for a moment? It's built on a NS/EW grid, with the streets named on a number/letter system. It's got a giant phallic symbol sticking up in the exact middle (which is at 16th street NW, okay, but that still shouldn't affect one's sense of north vs. west).

The only place I can imagine where it would be harder to mistake west for north would be Manhattan, with its street (EW) vs. avenue (NS) distinction being impossible to miss.

Re:Lost in DC?

[Anonymous Coward]

She gets lost now and is surprised because she's a woman. If you've ever seen DC once on a map, the N/W/E/S difference is plain.

I have

[Anonymous Coward]

an organ that occaisonally points north...ifyaknowwhatImean. *sigh* not as much as it used to these days....

You Want a...

[Anonymous Coward]

Cookie or a Medal?

kate beckinsale

[Anonymous Coward]

I always point north when I think of kate beckinsale. But you can't strap me to your ankle. My wife already has me straped to hers.

Montrealers, beware!

[Internalist]

This would be awful for people who live in Montreal...the axis that determines streets' "North/South" designation is pretty nearly NW-SE, and most people who've lived in Montreal for a while point NW when you ask them to show you N. In winter the sun rises & sets in really weird places. (or rather, it doesn't but a lot of people think it does *if* they bother to stop and think about it)

Lol. "it's a feature"

[steppin_razor_LA]

"The device also detects 'the specific places where infrastructure interferes with the earth's magnetic fields.'"

AT&T:
Engineer: We have coverage issues!
Marketing: Ah! That is a feature. It allows our customers to "sense" where they have no reception

It's a cultural thing.

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing that's missing from this discussion, however, is cross-cultural perspective. How to find one's way is culturally very variable.

For example, I spent a few years in Puerto Rico, and I can tell you one thing for sure: hardly anybody who lives there, male or female, navigates by maps, or thinks about distance in miles. People refer to roads by names, not numbers ("the old Caguas road"; "the Humacao road"); people don't talk about the distance to a place, but rather how long it takes to drive there ("How far is Ponce from San Juan?" "Oh, about an hour."); urban office addresses are normally given by the name of the building where the office is located ("office 301 of the Popular Plaza building in Hato Rey").

I also once went to South Korea, and learned that in Seoul the streets have no names, and that while buildings have numbers, the numbers are not assigned in any order that correlates to geography. How do get to an office? You call them, have them fax a map to your hotel, and give the map to your cab driver.

Re:It's a cultural thing.

[agnosticnixie]

My family is recent emigration from rural Britanny, in the north west of France, afaik it's that way still in many parts of Western Europe, but I'll be damned if I can tell you numerical addresses even in a city like Rennes. I can give the street, sure, but even there, I know the buildings and properties I need to remember by their name/street(s) - and I live on a different continent.

Re:It's a cultural thing.

[agnosticnixie]

(okay, bad example since when I'm not being a balding 40yo overweight american male like everyone else on the tubes, I play a 24yo woman IRL ;) - but my grandfather and his nephews (mom is a single child) and brothers follow the same pattern).

This is completely ordinary in some cultures

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

When I was a teen, I always consciously kept track where the North was. Every time I made a turn, I would adjust my imaginary compass - yeah I was some kind of freak. I would also make note of the orientation of some landmarks in every city. After a while, it became an automatism, now (over 20 yrs later) I often amaze people by pointing where the North is with very good accuracy without using a compass. It always works, but if I have been a passenger in a car (or other transport) it takes about half an hour after arriving before I know where the North is. Extra bonus: if the sun is visible, I can read the time of day from its position. I guess everybody can train it with a little bit of effort.

There are several cultures, most famously Australian Aborigines, where you can't even speak the language correctly if you don't have this skill. A quick example is from this article by Lera Borodistky:

Follow me to Pormpuraaw, a small Aboriginal community on the western edge of Cape York, in northern Australia. I came here because of the way the locals, the Kuuk Thaayorre, talk about space. Instead of words like "right," "left," "forward," and "back," which, as commonly used in English, define space relative to an observer, the Kuuk Thaayorre, like many other Aboriginal groups, use cardinal-direction terms -- north, south, east, and west -- to define space. This is done at all scales, which means you have to say things like "There's an ant on your southeast leg" or "Move the cup to the north northwest a little bit." One obvious consequence of speaking such a language is that you have to stay oriented at all times, or else you cannot speak properly. The normal greeting in Kuuk Thaayorre is "Where are you going?" and the answer should be something like " Southsoutheast, in the middle distance." If you don't know which way you're facing, you can't even get past "Hello."

Time sense

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not very interested in an increased sense of direction, but I've got a ghastly sense of time...I wonder if getting something to pulse every minute would help with that?

Hmm.

Re:Time sense

[4D6963]

Only if you think you can count on your dead reckoning of minutes. I for one would like better something that would give me a sense of the minutes part of the hour that it is. Something like the back of your wristwatch indicating by stimulating a small spot on your skin where the big hand is. I don't suppose that knowing which hour it is is a big problem?

Re:Time sense

[FatLittleMonkey]

Eventually it would just give you the pips.

Manhattan: not so much

[Bozdune]

In Manhattan, if you are new to the city, it's very easy to do a lot of walking before you can figure out E from W. Here's the scenario.

You climb out of the subway, say at the middle of W 28th (R or W line), trying to adjust to the bright outside light. You look around stupidly. Everyone else seems to know where they're going, and they're in a big hurry to get there, and you are creating a nuisance by standing still. You can't see the horizon because of the tall buildings. So it is not clear where the sun is, plus maybe it's noon or it's overcast or it's nighttime and it wouldn't help anyway. So you pick a random direction and start walking.

You've been told by people like the parent poster that it's easy to get around Manhattan because street numbers increase S to N and avenue numbers increase E to W. OK, say you ended up walking E on W28th to get to an avenue. Turns out it's Fifth Avenue. Cool, but you need another data point. So you keep walking. You get to "Madison Avenue." No help there, "Madison Avenue" doesn't have a number, so WTF. You keep walking. You get to "Park Avenue". Still no help. So you keep walking. You get to "Lexington Avenue." Still no help. Fuck! OK, turn around, walk the other way. Past Park, past Madison, back to Fifth, next Avenue... shit! "Avenue of the Americas." No help there. So you walk another block, and Hallelujah! It's Seventh. Congratulations. You're oriented. Too bad, you really wanted 3rd Avenue, which means you need to walk back the other way 6 blocks... past Avenue of the Americas, Fifth, Madison, Park, Lex, and whoo hoo finally you get to Third.

At this point you've walked 13 blocks, and these are Avenue blocks, not street blocks. Maybe you've walked about 1.5 miles at this point, maybe 2. That's a lot of walking, 30-40 minutes minimally, given waiting for traffic lights and so on.

OK, OK, New Yorkers, you've been jumping up and down yelling "THE STREETS CHANGE THEIR NAMES AT FIFTH AVENUE YOU DUMMY!" Yes, in the example above, the street name changes from "W 28th" to "E 28th" after we passed Fifth Avenue the first time. That's certainly an important clue -- but hell, I already KNOW I'm on 28th, so I'm not exactly studying the damn street sign to see if I'm still on it, am I? The change from "W" to "E" is easy to miss. And I could set up the problem such that I started on the east side, and I would still do a lot of walking.

And don't even get me started on lower Manhattan where the streets stop having numbers at all and start going in completely random directions, along with the subways, which as soon as they enter Lower Manhattan, feel the need to make a zillion right-angle turns amid much squealing of wheels, as though they're confused too.

Bottom line: before you walk around Manhattan, have a street map (in some form) with you. At least memorize the Avenue names and their ordering. And, yeah, it does help in some cases to remember that the street names change from "E " to "W " at Fifth Avenue.

Re:Manhattan: not so much

[lucas_picador]

I lived in New York for five years, and I agree with you: it's very easy for even residents there to mistake East for West or (to a lesser extent) North for South when getting out of the subway.

What's nearly impossible, though, as I said in my post, is mistaking West for North.

Mod parent up

[Eivind Eklund]

Lots of information in there.

This woman is obviously a nerd

[Benfea]

Any normal person would have been satisfied to use a GPS device like everyone else, but noooooooooooo. This woman had to build an electronic bracelet.

This happens alot in SF

[Anonymous Coward]

I've heard several people say that their sense of North-South flips in San Francisco. I've had a similar experience on the side of high ground. I'm guessing it has to do with the presence of a specific type of rock present at these locations.