Wal-Mart, Amazon Battle For Online Retail's Future

Hugh Pickens writes "The NY Times reports that Amazon and Wal-Mart are waging a price war for the future of online retailing that is spreading through product areas like books, movies, toys, and electronics. The tussle began last month over which company had the lowest prices on the most anticipated new books and DVDs this fall, but has now spread to select video game consoles, mobile phones, even to the humble Easy-Bake Oven. 'It's not about the prices of books and movies anymore. There is a bigger battle being fought,' said Fiona Dias, executive vice president at GSI Commerce, which manages the Web sites of large retailers. 'The price-sniping by Wal-Mart is part of a greater strategic plan. They are just not going to cede their business to Amazon.' Wal-Mart, with $405 billion in sales last year, dominates by offering affordable prices to Middle America in its 4,000 stores, while Amazon, with $20 billion in sales, caters mostly to affluent urbanites who would rather not push around a cart. But Amazon is expanding its slice of the retail pie at an alarming rate — its sales shot up 28 percent in the third quarter of this year; and sales in Amazon's electronics and general merchandise business are up 44 percent. 'We have to put our foot down and refuse to let them grow more powerful,' says Dias. 'I applaud Wal-Mart. It's about time multichannel retailers stood up and refused to let their business go away.'"

Comments

I hope they don't sell Linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

There are some consequences.

Re:I hope they don't sell Linux.

[artemis67]

Could a PeopleOfLinux.com website be far behind?

Re:I hope they don't sell Linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

Could a PeopleOfLinux.com website be far behind?

Slashdot.org ?

Re:I hope they don't sell Linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

Your wish has come true! http://www.peopleoflinux.com/

Re: Products

[eldavojohn]

Last Wednesday, Wal-Mart dropped the price of the oven to $17, from $28, as part of its "Black Friday" deals. Later the same day, Amazon cut its price, which had also been $28, to $18.

Well, color me confused, I see it as $18 on both Walmart's and Amazon's site.

It began last month with what appeared to be a public-relations-oriented competition on book prices, with both companies (along with Target, based in Minneapolis) dropping prices on books like "Under the Dome," by Stephen King, to below $9.

What? Walmart: $14.49 Amazon: $14.50

Don't get me wrong, this is great news for consumers but I think you're just seeing preperation for a Black Friday feeding frenzy and not actual 'price wars.'

'I applaud Wal-Mart. It's about time multichannel retailers stood up and refused to let their business go away.'

Wal-Mart stays away from heavily populated areas and makes most of its bank from the heartland anyway. I actually see this as Wal-Mart trying to steal a piece of the online pie if it isn't just a little bit of good ole capitalistic competition. If you think Wal-Mart's been losing business, their stock sure isn't showing it.

Amazon has one advantage

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazon has one distinct advantage: I will never buy anything from Walmart. That doesn't necessarily mean I will buy it from them instead, but at least I'm more likely to.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[Anonymous Coward]

You can go ahead and just pay more for the same thing. I don't mind.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[billcopc]

Amen, brother! Wal-Mart is a heavyweight player in this so-called recession.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[Applekid]

You can go ahead and just pay more for the same thing. I don't mind.

Except a lot of times it's not the same thing. Walmart is large enough that they can convince (read: coerce) manufacturers to making Walmart Edition versions of mainstream items. Walmart isn't the first to do this, but IS the first to do this with huge players like Whirlpool and Sony. No doubt this is because the big players can effectively be shut out of the lower middle class market by Walmart marketing the off-brands. It's a game of join the devil or die. I laugh when I see a Walmart commercial with the "Same Brands, Better Prices" theme. It's somewhat ironic that these companies that so closely guard their brand names to exploit brand recognition to imply quality are willing to undercut themselves just to get shelf space in one of the most powerful retailers in the country.

Now, those retail-specific models? You might have encountered them when trying to comparison shop and the model number you picked up from a Walmart placard cannot be found online or at other shops. Sometimes they differ by minor things: a lesser warranty or using factory-second plastic castings with a little more excess flash or slightly mismatched colors. Sometimes they differ by major things: lower class LCD panel with more permitted dead pixels or appliances with lower MTBF or lower tolerance components. A savings of pennies for a handful of resistors could mean the difference between shipping 50,000 units to Walmart or not.

That said, Amazon does it too, but for a much more customer-positive purpose. "Frustration-Free Packaging" takes manufacturer cooperation and requires them to make stuff for Amazon but it's not about presenting a false economy.

I know which company I'd rather give my money too, even if it happens to be a dollar or two more.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[Anonymous Coward]

You can go ahead and support the race to the bottom. I don't mind.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[Anonymous Coward]

That's funny, I buy as much as possible from WalMart. I'd buy more, but their online store is terrible. So, Amazon gets my online business especially since NewEgg tried to bait and switch me on free shipping, and WalMart gets a great deal of my brick and mortar.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[ISoldat53]

Sony's been doing this for years. They put the retailer's label on the same products various retailer sell each with a separate model number. When you go to look up a part number it will list several model numbers that it works on.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[Anonymous Coward]

So, you say that in order to take a stance on what I believe in, I might need to sacrifice something? Shocking! Who knew that having principles could be so darned inconvenient? Guess I'll just have to give up trying to be a good person.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[jimbolauski]

Walmart has done more for the economy than any politician ever has, they are providing competition in many areas that had none before. Yes they are driving out local business but the local business that everyone was so fond of were ripping it's customers off. I do not shop there not because I dislike that they are trying to compete, but because of the people of Walmart.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[DavidTC]

Indeed. Same here.

Walmart is my last resort shop. I don't like how they treat their employees. (I say that as an ex-employee.) I only go there if other places are closed, or simply do not have what I need.

I buy books from Barnes and Nobles, not Amazon, because I like to support brick and mortar book stores. I buy both online and in the store.

I did buy something from Amazon a year ago, the first time ever, I forget what it was...I think a video game. (B&N online doesn't actually sell video games, they just pretend they do...that's actually GameStop selling through them.)

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[X86Daddy]

A specific example of this were the aquarium filters made by Marineland. The Walmart ones were exactly the same as ones found in stores and online for usually about $10 more... Walmart's lower price was due to the lack of a spinning, cylindrical biofilter, and instead just a plastic mesh one.

That said, those filters were indeed branded differently with different product names, etc... but the plastic molds and most of the parts were exactly the same. I've not seen examples where something at Walmart was truly identified as the same model as something that's higher quality elsewhere, but I also haven't bought appliances or electronics there for many years.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[mea37]

I don't think you understand what GP's saying.

It's not about store-branded packaging of the same product.

It's about an inferior product sold using the same brand, same packaging - essentially sold as "the same product" (unless you compare the mfr model #).

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[Dare nMc]

from your post, I am guessing you have heard about The Man Who Said No to Wal-Mart But it is good to read the whole thing, it is not a one sided, "walmart pushes them to produce lower quality", the end. It is just as often a push to produce at a economical quality level. IE its usually better to buy a lawn mower that lasts half as long, but costs 1/3 as much. In that case it also pushed down the price of the quality products, by forcing them to be more efficient as well.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[Anonymous Coward]

They do this to avoid violating antitrust laws. The laws require them to sell the same product to all retailers at the same price. By differentiating the products they can skirt the law. This is the same reason you see bulk packaging at warehouse clubs like Sam's Club & BJ's.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't mind either. I don't get paid Wal-Mart rate wages.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[rho]

It's probably not fair to say they were ripping customers off. Wal*Mart's economies of scale allow it to do things a mom-and-pop simply can't do.

However, when my tire went flat on a Fourth of July weekend, it wasn't the mom-and-pop tire stores that were open. It was Wal*Mart.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[plague3106]

You go ahead and pay less for the cheap junk that normally wouldn't make it past QC, I don't mind.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[plague3106]

Except that its 3/4 of the price, and lasts 1/10 of the time.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[plague3106]

However, when my tire went flat on a Fourth of July weekend, it wasn't the mom-and-pop tire stores that were open. It was Wal*Mart.

Which is one of the things M&P are doing to shoot themselves in the foot. Walmart though sacrafices so much quality for so little price difference that I won't shop there ever (well unless you're talking about something like diapers), and I certainly wouldn't risk my life on a tire from walmart.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[Firehed]

Local businesses (generally) have knowledgeable and helpful employees. If all you're buying is napkins then that doesn't make much of a difference, but for products where you should be making some sort of vaguely informed purchase, having a helpful employee can result in you ending up much happier because you didn't buy the wrong thing for your needs.

If you consider that ripping people off, fine. I'm willing to pay a reasonable premium for good customer service, even if typical Wal-Mart penny-pinchers aren't. And I consistently end up with better products anyways, since I don't end up with looks-the-same-but-made-by-cutting-more-corners products that last half as long. Even the Q-tips -- something I didn't know it was possible to screw up -- I once bought from Wal-Mart were inferior to ones I bought at the local grocery store.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[djdbass]

This process of making a similar item with a different SKU also keeps pricematches from happening. It is not the same item if the SKU is different.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[Archeopteryx]

I agree. I will never, ever spend a dime at WalMart.

Hell, I wouldn't take their stuff were it free.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[mcgrew]

So-called? As Jim Hightower points out,

The latest job numbers mock the smiley-faced claims of economists and polticos that the Great Recession is over:

-- 10.2 percent of America's workforce is unemployed -- nearly 16 million people.

-- Another 15 million people are either so discouraged by their fruitless job search that they've quit looking, or they've had to settle for part-time jobs when they want and need full-time employment. Add the discouraged and underemployed to the number of the officially unemployed, and the percentage of our people who can't find the work they need rises to 17.5 percent -- one out of every six workers.

-- More than a third of the officially unemployed have been jobless for half a year -- a record for long-term joblessness.

-- Nearly 15 percent of the unemployed have college degrees, and many more of the college-educated are underemployed.

-- October was the 22nd straight month that the U.S. economy lost jobs -- the longest streak since 1939. About 7.3 million jobs have been eliminated since December 2007, when the recession began. In this same time span, 2.8 million new workers have come into the job market, meaning our economy is now 10.1 million jobs short of the number needed just to get back to even.

-- While average wages have risen slightly in the past year, average weekly pay has stagnated because of cut hours.

So please excuse our country's workaday majority for not cheering the news that prosperity has returned to those at the tippy top of America's economic pyramid. And -- please -- do not continue to insult workers with the dismissive declaration that the economy is experiencing a "jobless recovery." Not only is that an oxymoron, it is moronic.

If most Americans have not recovered, then neither has our economy.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[HiThere]

Ditto. I don't particularly like Amazon. But they aren't any worse than Barnes & Noble with their "move into an area, kill off the local book stores, and then leave" policy. Quite like WalMart, now that I think of it. I won't buy from either of them anymore.

Amazon at least doesn't use hit-and-run tactics. Sometimes I'll buy from them. (But I still don't like what they've done to the small book stores, and I abominate the Kindle, with it's "erase it after you've bought it" technology. [Yeah, they had "good reason" to use it on 1984. But they built it into the machine that they could, and that's unforgivable.])

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. It's just like those stupid mattress commercials... "We'll beat anyone's advertised price or your mattress is FREEEEE!!!!"

This is a double lie, and they know it. First, if anyone showed them a lower advertised price, they'd simply sell the mattress to you for a penny less or something. They're not gonna say, "Well, we won't sell it to you for that low, so we're going to have to give it to you for free instead." Duh.

Second, the mattress industry is in cahoots with the retailers, providing different model numbers for every single retailer. So there will never be a lower advertised price on a mattress that particular store sells. Furthermore, this makes it impossible to directly compare different mattresses from different stores when shopping. While I'm not fond of too much government regulation in free markets, I do think it would be beneficial to have better rules to bust up this kind of anti-consumer BS.

Imagine if every consumer product industry did this. It'd be a nightmare.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[Anonymous Coward]

However, when my tire went flat on a Fourth of July weekend, it wasn't the mom-and-pop tire stores that were open. It was Wal*Mart.

Yup. Same thing when we were stuck with car trouble in Utah on a Sunday. The whole damn town was closed except for Wally World. It may not have been high quality, but it was enough to get us back home to California the same day.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[winwar]

"Local businesses (generally) have knowledgeable and helpful employees."

You have got to be kidding. Right?!? The best thing about the service at Walmart is that there IS NO SERVICE. No clueless person regardless of salary making shit up. If I need more information than is present on the box, I look it up or ask people who have used the product, not people who want to sell me the product whether or not I need it.

Most local stores never had good service. They might have had better quality products until most manufacturers stopped making them. Especially if you cannot easily tell the difference (or afford it). At that point, you might just as well shop where the product is the cheapest.

And where I live, the "local" grocery store is one of many national chain stores. Unless it is custom made, it is probably mass produced somewhere. Just like those Q-tips at your "local" store.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[cshay]

While you are right that the major mattress companies provide different model numbers and names for each retailer to make comparison shopping more difficult, it is *not* true that the discounters will not honor lower prices of their competitors. I found a $1400 Beautyrest mattress that I wanted and was about to pay for it, when I noticed what was essentially the same mattress under a different name for $950 at their competitor (in the same mall). When I pointed this out, I immediately got the $950 price, less 10%.

But you are right, direct comparison is made difficult because you have to do it by specs, not by name.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[Attila Dimedici]

This is really the exception and not the rule. A overwhelming majority of the items you buy at Wal-mart are the exactly same as what you would buy at any other retailers. Especially for big purchases you should be researching based on model number and can tell that Wal-Mart is selling a different model. Either way if you refuse to shop at Wal-Mart then only you are losing. Overall, I know I am getting a better price at Walmart just by their revenue statistics. Look at them compared to any other Brick and Mortar retailer and their profit to revenue ratio is going to be the lowest. This means less of my money is going into Wal-Mart shareholder pockets and towards the manufacturer.

The problem is that the same model # from the same manufacturer is not necessarily the same at Wal-Mart as at another retailer. A major magazine (I no longer remember which one) did an article where they compared items sold at Wal-Mart with the same model number from the same manufacturer from Sears and/or J.C. Penney's. The example I remember was a particular model of American Tourister luggage. The model had a "drag" handle and small wheels. On the one from Sears and J.C. Penney's those items were metal, on the one from Wal-Mart, they were plastic.
That being said, your second point is valid and important. If one shops carefully, one can get better value for one's money at Wal-Mart.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[JumpDrive]

yes, you should do some more investigating. They have been doing this for at least 6 years with just about all of their major product lines. There was even a 60 minutes story on this.
But to be fair Wal-Mart is not the only one that does this. Circuit City (used to), Best Buy, MicroCenter, CompUSA are just a few of the places where I have seen this tactic in use.
This is just from checking various products and finding out they are not the same. And actually purchasing the same product from 2 different stores and later finding out that they were actually different. In fact 1 year later I found out they were real different.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[adolf]

I did the same thing with my fridge, range, dishwasher, my TV, and the TV before that. I've never bought any home appliance without paying at least 40% less than the sticker price.

I usually ended up at the same store at the end of the bargaining, where the salesfolk were friendly and seemed to actually have half a clue, and were willing to deal.

Unfortunately, they're no longer in business. :( I suspect I may have had something to do with that.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[noidentity]

Amazon has one distinct advantage: I will never buy anything from Walmart. That doesn't necessarily mean I will buy it from them instead, but at least I'm more likely to.

Thank you, sir, for ensuring that Amazon stays the leader. I hope you never switch, because I'd hate to see Amazon disappear.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[bill_mcgonigle]

Which is one of the things M&P are doing to shoot themselves in the foot. Walmart though sacrafices so much quality for so little price difference that I won't shop there ever (well unless you're talking about something like diapers), and I certainly wouldn't risk my life on a tire from walmart.

Walmart usually has a range of quality choices for a given product category. If you buy the top of the line, you usually get acceptable quality with excellent purchasing power. There are clearly exceptions, but judgement is assumed.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[falconwolf]

Ditto. I don't particularly like Amazon. But they aren't any worse than Barnes & Noble with their "move into an area, kill off the local book stores, and then leave" policy. Quite like WalMart, now that I think of it. I won't buy from either of them anymore

Can you show where either Barnes and Noble or Walmart opened in an area then once the competition went out of business they left? That is absolutely stupid.

Falcon

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[Anonymous Coward]

What is it with the terrible reading comprehension everyone seems to have? I didn't say I would buy everything, or for that matter even a single thing from Amazon, only that I won't buy anything from Walmart. I'm not sure how that helps Amazon "stay a leader", it only helps drive Walmart down.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[noidentity]

I was trying to make the joke that you were writing as if you were the single customer responsible for keeping Amazon afloat, their "distinct advantage".

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[HiThere]

Yeah. The town I live in. (Well, the town next door.) This was first heard as a rumor, and given a minor weighting. Then I observed it personally. Now I won't buy from either.

No, I'm not going to tell you where I live.

P.S.: Yes, they do still have stores in the area. But they're five times further away than either the stores they drove out of business or the stores they closed within a year of driving out the competition.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[plague3106]

You mean like a Wii, which is I believe $0.02 cheaper? That's what ends up happening for anything that might approach quality. And then at that point, why bother with walmart, which seems to attract white trash and hires retards for checkout?

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[bill_mcgonigle]

You mean like a Wii, which is I believe $0.02 cheaper?

No, commodities. Silverware, windshield wipers, etc.

That's what ends up happening for anything that might approach quality.

Again, their top-of-the line commodity items are of decent quality. I got a Sabatier Chef's knife there for $20, which is excellent.

And then at that point, why bother with walmart, which seems to attract white trash and hires retards for checkout?

Eh, if you check your elitism at the door you'll derive some economic benefit. Certainly there are stores who cater to folks who want to shop in 'proper' company, and they fill an economic nice too.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[falconwolf]

P.S.: Yes, they do still have stores in the area. But they're five times further away than either the stores they drove out of business or the stores they closed within a year of driving out the competition.

If there are no stores then why aren't any opening? With there being demand there's a reason for someone to open a store. It says something if there's not enough demand for someone to open a store.

If Walmart opens a store in an area then closes it Walmart just wasted money.

Falcon

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[plague3106]

No, commodities. Silverware, windshield wipers, etc. Again, their top-of-the line commodity items are of decent quality. I got a Sabatier Chef's knife there for $20, which is excellent.

I just round that brand knife, 8" stainless steel, for $8 a Bed Bath & Beyond. Without knowing the exact one, I can't compare much else, but like I said, at that point you don't seem to be saving anything worthwhile at all.

Eh, if you check your elitism at the door you'll derive some economic benefit. Certainly there are stores who cater to folks who want to shop in 'proper' company, and they fill an economic nice too.

Whatever, I know who I see at my local walmart; toothless hicks who can't spell their own name. Its not an exaggeration, and I don't see the "economic benefit." Either I'm saving literally less than $0.05, or I'm getting a piece of cheap crap with a brand name on it which will be dead and useless to me in about 6 months.

I'd rather spend the few more cents, or in the case of crap with branding, spend to get the brand + the quality, and NOT have to deal with retards (again, literally working as cashiers).

So please, feel free to continue to think you're on some moral high ground, I really don't care. And its "niche."

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[bill_mcgonigle]

I just round that brand knife, 8" stainless steel, for $8 a Bed Bath & Beyond. Without knowing the exact one, I can't compare much else, but like I said, at that point you don't seem to be saving anything worthwhile at all.

FYI, it was carbon steel, not stainless - such a nice is ordinarily $80-$90 at a kitchen store - the Walmart model had a somewhat different grip style.

Whatever, I know who I see at my local walmart; toothless hicks who can't spell their own name.

Why does it matter who else is in a store where you shop? Do you refuse to use roads that are also used by people with poor dental care and literacy? Restaurants? Internets?

Its not an exaggeration, and I don't see the "economic benefit." Either I'm saving literally less than $0.05, or I'm getting a piece of cheap crap with a brand name on it which will be dead and useless to me in about 6 months.

I got the knife about 3 years ago - it shows no sign of failing. I don't think anybody really argues that Walmart's pricing isn't the lowest on commodity goods. I've done the comparison shopping on Ziplock bags, Cottonelle, Kleenex, SpeedStick, etc., and the price savings are significant. Tropicana OJ can be had for half of the local grocery store.

I'd rather spend the few more cents, or in the case of crap with branding, spend to get the brand + the quality, and NOT have to deal with retards (again, literally working as cashiers).

What IQ floor is appropriate for a cashier? Perhaps your economic region is at full employment?

So please, feel free to continue to think you're on some moral high ground, I really don't care.

Hrm, being thrifty and considerate would just be 'normal' in most cases.

And its "niche."

Thanks for playing typo-spotting?

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[bobzaguy]

Not to mention that delicious sign that says: "If you find the exact same product at our competitor's store, we will refund double your purchase price." Thank you.

Re:Amazon has one advantage

[plague3106]

FYI, it was carbon steel, not stainless - such a nice is ordinarily $80-$90 at a kitchen store - the Walmart model had a somewhat different grip style.

Don't have time to look, but at any rate the price may have changed.

Why does it matter who else is in a store where you shop? Do you refuse to use roads that are also used by people with poor dental care and literacy? Restaurants? Internets?

Well I'd rather not be around people that are loud, smell bad, are inconsiderate (not that this particular issue isn't in non-walmart stores as well, but at walmart its a given) and too stupid to be able to effectively use the self-checkout lanes. Nor do I want to be around their little brats.

As for roads, not much I can do about that, but I'd rather dumb hick in his pickup not be on the same road, because they are more likely to try to engage in childish behavior such as racing, tail-gating, randomly hitting brakes, etc. Again, this isn't something the drooling walmart masses have a lock on, but seems more likely. A guy in a nicer car is more likely to drive sanely. What other people do on the internet doesn't affect me, so I don't give a shit. As for restraunts, it depends on the atmosphere. If there is a high concentration of drooling retards, I stay away. Again, cost seems to be a factor here; I'm more likely to be around loud, smelly people @ McDs than Olive Garden.

I got the knife about 3 years ago - it shows no sign of failing. I don't think anybody really argues that Walmart's pricing isn't the lowest on commodity goods. I've done the comparison shopping on Ziplock bags, Cottonelle, Kleenex, SpeedStick, etc., and the price savings are significant. Tropicana OJ can be had for half of the local grocery store.

I never argued about pricing either, its the quality that ends up suffering. A lawnmower is a commidity item as well, and one I got there didn't last a summer. An outdoor swing loveseat also didn't last the summer; the welding was shoddy (neither my wife nor I are obese).

I wouldn't buy food at walmart (even if they sold it at the only one in my state), but i know people that have in other states. The cheap ground beef is close to spoiling, already turning brown. Walmart also sold tainted pet food... taking it off the shelves only to restock it after closing for sale the next day. These are not isolated incidents, you can find reports of selling spoiled and rotten food quite frequently. The levis they sell are irregulars, that's known to be true. My wife bought a shirt there she liked, wore it once, and it literally fell apart in the wash. There are numerous stories of company cutting corners to meet walmarts price demands, because that's the only option they have to meet walmarts demands and still make some kind of profit.

What IQ floor is appropriate for a cashier? Perhaps your economic region is at full employment?

One in which the cashier can speak clear English and can scan three small items in under a minute. In no circumstance should the cashier be confused scanning three items, and the total checkout time is 15 minutes. Yes, I've experienced that directly. Given my experience at the self checkout lanes, I'd say IQ should be higher than that of the average walmart shopper, who as I mentioned ALSO cannot figure how to scan three simple items in under 15 minutes, nor do they seem to be able to READ THE INSTRUCTIONS ON SCREEN.

I don't get your quip about full employment; I'm talking about retards being replaced by average people (but not your average walmart shopper). A zero sum equation.

Hrm, being thrifty and considerate would just be 'normal' in most cases

There's nothing wrong with being thrifty. But spending less and getting less isn't really appealing to me. I'd rather pay a little more for a mower which is going on four years now. I've saved more by paying upfront for something that lasts much longer. I fail to see why I should be considerate to those who are not considerate themselves either.

Stereotypes much?

[Akido37]

Wal-Mart ... dominates by offering affordable prices to Middle America... while Amazon ... caters mostly to affluent urbanites

Because we all know how there are no Wal-Marts along the East or West Coasts, and those backward "middle Americans" don't have the Internet.

Re:Stereotypes much?

[castorvx]

Excuse me, I believe those middle America shoppers are called Real Americans. People these days.

Re:Stereotypes much?

[x3rc3s]

Oh, if only...

Re:Stereotypes much?

[Monkeedude1212]

I can't tell if you missed the meaning of Middle America meaning Middle Class, or if it was part of your joke.

Either way, I'm sure there ARE more Wal-marts in the middle of the states, since the coasts are mostly made up of Starbucks.

Re:Stereotypes much?

[raeljds]

sometimes i get so darned frustrated with load times over the cans-and-strings internet here in KC!

Re:Stereotypes much?

[MozeeToby]

There's a difference between stereotypes and demographics you know; it isn't as if Amazon goes around saying "Yes it's cheap, but will it get them off their tractors?". It is a fact that Walmart has focused their efforts on rural areas, only very recently moving into major cities agressively. It's also a fact that Amazon's business model works slightly better for urbanites who recieve shipments faster (in Milwaukee shipments would arrive in 2-3 days with free shipping, rural Iowa it's more like 8-10 days), are more likely to have high speed internet, and are less likely to be served by a walmart/target type discount store.

Re:Stereotypes much?

[IANAAC]

It is a fact that Walmart has focused their efforts on rural areas, only very recently moving into major cities agressively. It's also a fact that Amazon's business model works slightly better for urbanites who recieve shipments faster (in Milwaukee shipments would arrive in 2-3 days with free shipping, rural Iowa it's more like 8-10 days), are more likely to have high speed internet, and are less likely to be served by a walmart/target type discount store.

The SF bay area and LA had both Walmart and Target long before rural Wisconsin did (even though Target is a MPLS-based company). Come to think of it, so did Chicago. Walmart has never "focused on rural areas", rather, they've set up shop where they believe they'll make the most money. Urban/rural has nothing to do with it.

Re:Stereotypes much?

[Anonymous Coward]

And the answer is:

http://www.walmartstoremap.com/

Re:Stereotypes much?

[f97tosc]

Wal-Mart ... dominates by offering affordable prices to Middle America... while Amazon ... caters mostly to affluent urbanites

Because we all know how there are no Wal-Marts along the East or West Coasts, and those backward "middle Americans" don't have the Internet.

The words you yourself are quoting literally say "dominates by" and "mostly". Why is it that you can't make perfectly accurate demographic statements without somebody feeling the need to refute claims about "all" and "no" which have never been made? It is a good thing not to attribute a demographic average to every member of the group, but rejecting the average trend itself is just silly, and not insightful at all.

A one minute search on google revealed this paper that shows negative income elasticity for Wal-Mart shoppers. I would be shocked if further search would not give more statistical support to the orginal claim.

http://economics.missouri.edu/working-papers/2008/WP0805_basker.pdf

Re:Stereotypes much?

[Pojut]

I live in Maryland, about 30 minutes outside of DC, and there are 4 Wal-Marts within 20 minutes of my house.

Re:Stereotypes much?

[ChaosDiscord]

Well, to be fair, the real reason I avoid Wal-Mart (yet strangely continue going to Target and a host of other stores) is that I dislike pushing shopping carts. It also can't possibly have anything to do with having a wider selection online, including higher quality and more durable products.

Dear original post author: if I want clueless stereotypes I know where to find Thomas Friedman.

Re:Stereotypes much?

[Chees0rz]

Because we all know how there are no Wal-Marts along the East or West Coasts, and those backward "middle Americans" don't have the Internet.

I believe 'Middle America' refers to social/economic classes... not locality...

Re:Stereotypes much?

[Monkeedude1212]

How many Coffee Shops though?

Re:Stereotypes much?

[Chees0rz]

That makes me want to vomit.

Re:Stereotypes much?

[thenextstevejobs]

The SF bay area and LA had both Walmart and Target long before rural Wisconsin did

While you're correct by saying the "SF Bay Area" I would like to point out that the City and County of San Francisco does not have a Walmart or a Target, as the city has resisted these franchises.

Re:Stereotypes much?

[Pojut]

Starbucks specifically? I believe four, although it MIGHT be five.

Re:Stereotypes much?

[Nevyn]

And for anyone else who is not an economist "negative income elasticity" means "prefer cheaper, lower quality, goods".

Re:Stereotypes much?

[mdarksbane]

The difference is that in rural America, wal-mart may be the only vendor for many items within a 40 minute drive.

Growing up, I bought my jeans at wal-mart, because Old Navy etc were 45 minutes away. Same for appliances, toys, sports supplies. A town of 10,000 will usually have a wal-mart, but it doesn't have much else to go to any more. Going to the mall was a relatively special occasion, not your regular shopping run.

Re:Stereotypes much?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, when Sam Walton started walmart, they wouldn't put a new store in any town with a population greater than 10,000. Their entire business worked in small towns until the 80s. The plan is simple. You move into a small town where you can undercut all the mom/pop stores, put them out of business and then nearly everyone HAS to shop at your store. Moving into a big city when you're just starting your business doesn't make as much sense because you're competing with other stores with similar offerings. That's why it was so successful. It started in Bentonville, AR and spread across all the small towns in the area first.

Re:Stereotypes much?

[Anonymous Coward]

Chicago does not have a Walmart. The Chicago area does but the actual city will not let one in. Labor and the Mayor have kept the deal off.

Re:Stereotypes much?

[bigngamer92]

Well Nicaragua only has 2.7% internet penetration , so I would say that Middle America is lacking some Amazonian business.

Re:Stereotypes much?

[JumpDrive]

Heck, I live in Texas and I can step outside and face 4 different directions (no mirrors) and shoot a Starbucks.

Re:Stereotypes much?

[falconwolf]

Because we all know how there are no Wal-Marts along the East or West Coasts, and those backward "middle Americans" don't have the Internet.

I believe 'Middle America' refers to social/economic classes... not locality...

And of course the middle class can't afford net access. But the poor can.

Falcon

Re:Stereotypes much?

[falconwolf]

Either way, I'm sure there ARE more Wal-marts in the middle of the states, since the coasts are mostly made up of Starbucks.

Geographically I live in upper middle America, Minneapolis/St Paul, MN, and I have more Starbucks near me than Walmarts.

Falcon

Re:Stereotypes much?

[bobzaguy]

And our second name is "the Original Internets"

We all win

[esocid]

For now, until one of them cedes, or make a competitive deal, even those of us who avoid Wally World like the plague. Then we all lose, but for now I'm at least entertained seeing Walmart with an adversary.

Re:We all win

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh?

Walmart doesn't have an adversary........Amazon does.
They're one of the 1st successful ecommerce sites. Walmart is playing catchup.

No way Walmart

[losman]

Fast shipping. Great customer service. Better prices. And most importantly there are better/quality reviews on Amazon. Sorry Walmart... and btw even locally I would go to Target instead of Walmart.

Re:No way Walmart

[MyFirstNameIsPaul]

I read the reviews on Amazon and buy elsewhere all the time, and then review on Amazon. Among other things, I noticed Target was $20 more expensive on Sonicare toothbrushes - Target loves you. Although I happen to have a Wal-Mart and a Target on the same road.

Re:No way Walmart

[symbolic]

I have both Target stores and Walmart close by. How many times have I walked into a Walmart? Twice. I shop at Target all the time. Target generally has good prices, though I'm sure there are occasions when I could get the same thing from Walmart for a bit less. I'm not bothered by that, really.

Re:No way Walmart

[Anonymous Coward]

I assume that when you mean "better/quality reviews", you are not talking about DVD/Blu-rays on Amazon. Every movie I ever went pre-order has tons of reviews for a product that does not even exist yet. Yeah the movie might have been great in the theaters, but does that mean the DVD/Blu-ray will be. What if there is a defect in the DVD when released, what if the compression sucks, what if the sound isn't right, etc...Amazon DVD/Blu-ray reviews are mostly useless.

Re:No way Walmart

[Hurricane78]

You mean better fake quality reviews. Everyone knows that there are no real quality reviews on the net. Just as there are no real girls or facts on it. ^^

Re:No way Walmart

[192939495969798999]

If Wal-Mart threw its weight behind beating Amazon, Wal-Mart would tear Amazon's arms off like an angry wookie. As many of their competitors have learned, it's best just to let the wookie win.

Re:No way Walmart

[bemymonkey]

Obviously you need to take into account the fact that most reviewers will have just received the product, which usually leads to a very positive, even euphoric take ;-)... The customer reviews are, however, a goldmine when it comes to finding out hard facts about the products that aren't available in product descriptions or official reviews - usually at least half of the things I want to know aren't even mentioned in official reviews, but I find that a lot of customer reviews are written from perspectives not all too dissimilar to mine.

Re:No way Walmart

[Firehed]

I'd think that at least 90% of movie reviews (as well as music, video games, and other entertainment) are focused on the content and story, not A/V quality. Unless there's something defective in the shipping products to the point where there might be a recall, very few people are going to comment about the slightly overcompressed video. Most of them are going to be listening through the crappy built-in speakers on their TV, and more than a few are going to have the player hooked up wrong or non-optimally.

Re:No way Walmart

[Talonius]

I'll pay the extra money just so I can have a cheerful cashier, a clean rest room, and a brightly lit store. As well as Target's contributions to the community and schools.

Re:No way Walmart

[CodeBuster]

Wal-Mart would tear Amazon's arms off like an angry wookie.

Wal-Mart: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrgh

C-3PO: He made a fair move. Screaming about it can't help you.

Han Solo: Let him have it. It's not wise to upset a Wookiee.

C-3PO: But sir, nobody worries about upsetting a droid.

Han Solo: That's 'cause droids don't pull people's arms out of their sockets when they lose. Wookiees are known to do that.

Wal-Mart: Grrf.

C-3PO: I see your point, sir. I suggest a new strategy, Amazon: let the Wookiee win.

Re:No way Walmart

[JumpDrive]

I just saw your comment and it is wonderful, no typos, and it was punctuated effectively, can't wait to finish reading it.

Great... we'll rue the day BuyNLarge.com wins!

[Anonymous Coward]

This just means that, if Wal-Mart wins this battle, we can look forward to a future where their BuyNLarge conglomerate really does own everything and operates with complete impunity.

C'mon, $400 billion vs. $20 billion? How is that not an antitrust actionable item even in the averse United States.

Re:Great... we'll rue the day BuyNLarge.com wins!

[Chaos Incarnate]

If that's the price I have to pay to get a pet WALL*E, so be it.

Re: Products

[Chaos Incarnate]

What? Walmart: $14.49 Amazon: $14.50

The cited prices applied at the book's release. They've gone up in the intervening month.

not really

[Anonymous Coward]

if (!NeedItToday && WillingToBuySightUnseen && WillingToRiskShippingDamageOrDelay)
  BuyFromAmazon();
else
  BuyFromWalmart();

Re:not really

[Anonymous Coward]

Most. Insightful. Post. Ever.

Although many times you can examine the product somewhere else before buying it through Amazon.

Re:not really

[sucati]

really? I'm impatient so I can get a macbook pro from walmart? sony xbr tv? [insert million other items walmart doesn't carry]. if (needmotoroil || wiperblades || cheaphouseholditem) buywalmart(); else buyonline();

Re:not really

[commodore64_love]

I like when things arrive damaged. I can complain to Amazon and they'll usually give it to me free. Good luck getting anything free from Walmart, who will usually give you a store credit (gift card) instead even when you deserve a refund

Welcome to the new economy

[colmore]

Remember all those quirky startups? That was a dead end. The new economy is 3 or 4 giant retailers selling everything.

Huzzah!

Re:Welcome to the new economy

[cryfreedomlove]

What do you think we should do about this?

Re:Welcome to the new economy

[megamerican]

A large percentage of my purchases at Amazon are from independent resellers. Ebay, Craigslist, Amazon are great portals for "start ups." The internet has changed the way business is done. If you can't adapt then you die. That's the way it has always worked.

Re:Welcome to the new economy

[Anonymous Coward]

Taken to its logical conclusion, capitalism is nearly identical to soviet-era communism. In both systems you inevitably end up with a small elite of wealthy individuals owning all the capital and making all the profit, while squeezing the middle and lower classes into oblivion.

Re:Welcome to the new economy

[Anonymous Coward]

"Remember all those quirky startups?"

Note that you remember the quirks more than any business model.

Re:Welcome to the new economy

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe that was Marx's motivation behind his basic economic motivation for coming up with an alternative to capitalism.

Re:Welcome to the new economy

[LandDolphin]

Very true. I purchase from Amazon every so often; usually books. The majority of the time, the books are being sold from someone else than Amazon.

Re:Welcome to the new economy

[interploy]

New? My friend, this is simply how the economy works. Look at any market. There are nearly always three top competitors - two vying for dominance, one underdog - taking 90%+ of the market, with everyone else stuck scraping by on the dredges. The only reason this seems interesting is that the online market hasn't fully stabilized yet.

Regardless, all markets follow the same general development cycle:
1) A new market emerges with one or two novel entrepreneurs. 2) The idea catches on and the market is soon flooded with dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of other startups, eager to cash in.
3) Eventually, bloat sets in as more companies than the market can support try to set up shop. The market then consolidates and shrinks through collapse and buyout.
4) The market starts to stabilize with at least one obvious dominant market leader and the others scrambling to figure out their place in the pecking order before being bought out or going bankrupt themselves. (the stage online retail is at now, in case you were wondering)
5) The market finally stabilizes with a small set of companies that dominate the market, with the other survivors usually finding smaller niche markets rather than compete directly. Any novel companies that start to rise at this point are either bought out by one of the Big 3 or are crushed in legal frivolities.

Re:Welcome to the new economy

[commodore64_love]

>>>A large percentage of my purchases at Amazon are from independent resellers.

Which States like New York, Massachusetts, et cetera want to force to collect sales tax, and thereby create a heavy accounting and cost burden. Let's see. 10,000 sales tax jurisdictions/forms times 44 cents each == $4400 to comply.

Re:Welcome to the new economy

[colmore]

It used to be possible as an independent business person to own and operate a retail shop. Independent retail has been nearly killed by big box stores and the internet.

This is new.

Re:Welcome to the new economy

[Anonymous Coward]

Only buy products from the guy selling things out of his van down the street, obviously.

Next question.

Re:Welcome to the new economy

[JumpDrive]

buy directly from china.

Re:Welcome to the new economy

[interploy]

It's still possible if the independent shop has an adequate website itself. Unfortunately, that's not usually the case as most local sites (at least where I live) either have a pseudo-site through some ad service or a simple information site with no real content. A local online shop that offers both direct shipping for anyone and holding items for local customers to pick up later could very well supplement a small business.

There is something new in that online retail is both it's own market and an extension to traditional retail, but it's still nothing that couldn't have been anticipated.

Sales Tax

[MyFirstNameIsPaul]

The 9.25% sales tax that I pay through wal-mart.com makes Amazon with shipping the same price, though less on more expensive items. Wal-mart.com takes over a week for site-to-store and Amazon takes only 2 days. Which would you choose?

Re:Sales Tax

[AlexBirch]

This dovetails nicely with this story Calling BS on Amazon's Taxation Arguments if Walmart were to eliminate this provision, then Amazon wouldn't have any advantage.

Re:Sales Tax

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure what state you live in, but you might want to look into the "use tax" when filing your next return. You're probably responsible for paying that 9.25% even though Amazon isn't collecting it.

"Responsible for paying" and "likely to pay" are admittedly not the same. Use taxes are generally very difficult to enforce, so they pretty much never are enforced. If your state requries it but you don't pay it, you might want to think over the ethics of shifting tax burden around in that way. Depending on what you're buying, maybe you figure it's not enough money to worry about - but in that case, it wouldn't be a decision-maker on which company you shop with, would it?

Re:Sales Tax

[tabrisnet]

It would eliminate some of the price advantage, but certainly not the logistics advantage. I still shop at Newegg, despite the fact that I pay sales-tax, vs say other vendors like Provantage. Why? because newegg can get it here in ~2 days, while other places like Provantage or GearXS will take a week.

Re:Sales Tax

[MyFirstNameIsPaul]

Nah, I'm safe in California. If some federal judge determines that the Kindle subsidiary's being located here requires Amazon to pay sales tax, then Amazon will uproot the subsidiary. That is the one and only presence they have here. In other news, California's unemployment rate is 12.5%.

Re:Sales Tax

[AlexBirch]

Thanks for the comment, yet in the article I linked said nothing about the having subsidiaries in each state.
From TFA:

in 2008 New York enacted an innovative law that effectively deems a retailer to have a physical presence within the state when it has independent “affiliate” websites in the state promoting sales on its behalf.

Therefore Amazon in selling to CA (I'm sure they need the money and would pass a similar bill to New York's) would have to collect Sale Tax. What was considered onerous in 1992 may not seem so onerous now.

Re:Sales Tax

[MyFirstNameIsPaul]

It is not in California's interest to bust every single person not paying use tax in Internet purchases, especially when there's already a minor tax revolt in progress. It's a check box on the tax return and nobody pays it.

Hm, ethical decision-making on paying money to the government... I'll leave that one for members of the Obama administration to respond to, especially the guy who oversees the IRS.

Re:Sales Tax

[AlexBirch]

I believe if Walmart wanted to, they could either offer postal deliver (within 2 days) or even home delivery. Their distribution model is second to none, however,they're offering the lower price. This lower price can entice you pick it up at their store, while there you may remember some other things that you wanted to buy.

Re:Sales Tax

[MyFirstNameIsPaul]

I don't recall the case, but I believe that the NY law flies in the face of a Supreme Court ruling. This article linked in the story specifically discusses California and the Kindle subsidiary.

Re:Sales Tax

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anybody pay 'use' tax?

The CPA who sends in my return never told me about it ,or asks if I have bought stuff out-of-state that would require it.

Re:Sales Tax

[commodore64_love]

Why should Amazon's owner, a citizen of California, be subject to a Massachusetts government ~2500 miles away? That's akin to saying somebody in Portugal citizen-seller should have to pay tax to the Lithuania government. It makes no sense to allow governments to extend their laws beyond their own borders.

Especially when the Californians/Portuguese citizens have no voice in the Massachusetts/Lithuanian Legislatures. That's taxation without representation.

Re:Sales Tax

[AlexBirch]

Why should Amazon's owner charge sales tax on a business transaction that results in a good delivered good in Massachusetts? Not that I'm a fan of this, yet it seems far from being illogical.
However Lithuania would be within its rights to bar me from doing any business transactions there, if I don't follow their laws. If one of their laws was simply to pay them sales tax on every transaction there, is that absurd?

Re:Sales Tax

[commodore64_love]

Neither the U.S. Constitution nor the EU Lisbon Treaty allows Massachusetts (Lithuania) to bar Californian (Portuguese) sellers to sell their goods into their respective territories. These were the terms of the Confederation these states agreed to.

And as for the tax, only the central government can tax across state lines. Citizens of one member states are not subject to the sales laws of the other state. Each state's laws end at the border.

Being a Virginian I don't recognize New York's authority to subject me to their laws.

Re:Sales Tax

[AlexBirch]

I've never argued that a person is subject to the laws of another state (e.g., I'm selling wine in California and Massachusetts wants to tax that or my personal income), unless they do business in that state.

Citizens of one member states are not subject to the sales laws of the other state
I totally agree with this, yet vendors are subject to the laws of the states where they're selling.
Some examples: the state where I reside determines if you're able to sell me wine. Also distribution of pornography is regulated by community standards not your community standards.

Re:Sales Tax

[JumpDrive]

Amazon would still have an advantage. I can order from Amazon at midnight from home after spending 4 hours researching online. With WalMart I still have to drive someplace where I wouldn't normally be going.

Re:Sales Tax

[commodore64_love]

>>>I totally agree with this, yet vendors are subject to the laws of the states where they're selling.

That's true but all they can do is stop me from mailing you the wine. They cannot send their cops over the border and arrest me. Neither can they send their cops over the border (300 miles from NY to VA) and arrest me for failure to pay taxes.

Likewise neither can the Ottawa Government send mounties to my home and force me to pay Canadian VAT taxes.
I am not subject to juris diction of any government except Virginia State and the central U.S. government.

Retail

[oldhack]

It feels as if the retail sector is the only marketplace in America with vigorous competition. Have we finally become England?

Re:Retail

[commodore64_love]

There's also competition in the following areas:

- gas stations (one corner versus another corner)
- grocery (store versus store)
- computers
- cars
- radio and television stations
- cable and satellite TV providers

Re:Retail

[oldhack]

Some of that is in the retail space, but I agree there are other sectors with rigorous competition. I'd better cut down on my intake of slashdot.

This is a Long Term Fight

[CodeBuster]

At TFA points out, Amazon serves more affluent urban populations that prefer to make their purchases online and thus avoid unnecessary trips to pick up items which can just as well be delivered. Not to mention the fact that many of these wealthier urban dwellers live in higher tax states and in higher cost cities where using Amazon doesn't add sales tax (New York being an notable exception) and the nearest WalMart might be a bit of a drive (assuming that they even own a private vehicle). Amazon also has a sophisticated website and online order fulfillment system, including a strong franchise in intelligent and automated recommendations, which they have built up over many years of successful business and feedback; WalMart is definitely playing catchup here. On the other hand, WalMart practically wrote the book on retail supply chain management (the TFA points out that Amazon has poached talent from WalMart in the past to improve their own supply chain logistics) and has detailed regional knowledge of consumer trends and which items maximize profits and at what prices. Amazon has their affiliate program, but these affiliates are often unable to match the prices offered by WalMart when Amazon itself doesn't stock the items in question. IMHO, in the long run, both companies will continue to be successful and while there will be battles over turf (DVDs, Books, Electronics, etc) there are sufficient differences in consumer preferences to accommodate both business models going forward.

Re:This is a Long Term Fight

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazon also has a sophisticated website and online order fulfillment system

Not really. Their website blows:

- can't sort by prices or anything else unless you pick a department. Is a GPS in electronics or outdoor goods? You have to pick one.

- missing search terms. I can't count the number of times I wanted to narrow a search and add a keyword only to get no matches even though I'm looking at a product page with all the keywords in it.

- can't even actually sort by price or narrow by price. You select 'new' only and by '$50 - $100' range and you're going to get tons of results for things that are $300 with '1 new and used from $99' sold by some random outfit in timbuctoo. I don't want a beat up used product that's not going to arrive in 4 weeks. That's why I selected 'new' and a price range dammit.

- tons of results for exactly the same thing. Search for some widget and there are hundreds of results with the exact same picture and for the same product. Meanwhile the product you were actually looking for is on page 283 of the results. Although they have been getting a little better recently with this and most searches for substantial products don't have this problems.

Re:This is a Long Term Fight

[CodeBuster]

Is the website of WalMart substantially better in this regard?

Re:This is a Long Term Fight

[LordKronos]

can't sort by prices or anything else unless you pick a department. Is a GPS in electronics or outdoor goods? You have to pick one.

While your general complaint may be right, you picked a bad example. Go to amazon, search for "GPS", choose "Amazon GPS & Navigation Store" from the search results, then pick a group to look at (ex: "All Vehicle GPS") and then you can sort by price. :-)

The problem...

[Areyoukiddingme]

The problem with many corners of the American economy is the idea that the whole thing works like this. Assuming this isn't just a planted story as part of a marketing campaign by the underdog in sales (Amazon), this is an example of how the free market is supposed to work. Competition to attract customers. This is the example we're supposed to look at to see how our cell phone plans are supposed to evolve. Everything is just like retail sales, according to the "free market" deregulation zealots. The older I get, the more convinced I am that retail sales is the only sector like retail sales. Nothing else works that way.

Re:The problem...

[commodore64_love]

That's because the following things happen to upset the market:

- Natural monopolies (water, sewer, natural gas, electricity)
- Government-mandated monopolies (DeBeers diamonads, Comcast cable, Bell telephone or internet, OPEC cartel/price fixing)
- Government interference to save bad businesses that should be left to die (AIG, GM, Boscovs)
- Outright government banning of competition (you can't buy insurance outside your state, which is not quite but close to a government-granted monopoly)

The first is obviously unavoidable, but the latter 3 could easily be fixed by getting the government the hell out of the way.

Re:The problem...

[HiThere]

I'm not sure. I think cable and phone wire hookups are also natural monopoly...but that they should be owned by government at the local level. Water needs either government regulation or ownership at the state or larger level (depends on the source of the water as well as the destination). Sewer should be owned by government at the local level, with pollution regulations at the local, state AND federal level.

N.B.: I didn't mention phone service or ISPs, merely the physical layer. The higher levels should be competitive. And I'm not certain that the government should never ban competition. I have a hard time thinking of when they should, but this doesn't mean it shouldn't ever happen.

Re:The problem...

[amplt1337]

retail sales is the only sector like retail sales.

Jeez, not even retail sales works like retail sales any more. Here in New York (on 6th Ave. around 20th st, if you're wondering) directly across the street from each other sit a Container Store and a Bed Bath. The Bed Bath sells goods which are nearly identical to TCS' in many cases, but at prices that are consistently 10-20% lower. But no price war of any kind is going on; The Container Store simply has a higher price point, the end. Both stores seem to be doing fine... it's kind of odd, given that the goods are largely interchangeable, and similar goods could be purchased at Ikea for even less...

Re:The problem...

[Anonymous Coward]

The older I get, the more convinced I am that retail sales is the only sector like retail sales. Nothing else works that way.

s/Amazon/Democrats/
s/Wal-Mart/Republicans/

The political sector works that way too. Funny that in this case, their specific retail niche appears to be much like the US political system.

Re:The problem...

[commodore64_love]

>>>I think cable and phone wire hookups are also natural monopoly..

Today's phone, cable TV, and internet can all be carried in a single millimeter-thick fiber optic (example: Verizon FiOS). That means you could run dozens of these wires, one for each company (Comcast, AppleTV, LinuxISP, et cetera), through the government's underground metal pipes.

That means it's not a natural monopoly.

Re:The problem...

[HiThere]

??? I don't think you understand the problem. Legally nobody has the right to run even a thread over your property unless the city provides them with an easement. So the physical layer is a natural monopoly.

Do you know who owns the land on which the streets are situated? It's not usually the city, it's usually the property owners on either side of the street. But the city owns the street itself, and grants easements to those who run physical connections under the street. You don't want lots of different companies digging up the street all the time...it happens too much anyway. So you carefully limit who is allowed an easement.

Good?

[TwoToeWilly]

No matter who wins, the money still goes to China.

Re:Good?

[Geoffrey.landis]

No matter who wins, the money still goes to China.

I'm sorry, but that's "No matter who wins... we lose."

(*actually, the quote was "whoever wins... we lose." So, which one is the predator?

Re:Good?

[cryfreedomlove]

So?

Re:Good?

[Anonymous Coward]

No matter who wins, the money still goes to China.

Which is good, because then China can lend it back to us as our President keeps spending more money than our downtrodden economy can finance on its own.

Walmart has a website?

[hoytak]

And you can buy stuff on it? brb while I google that.

Re: Products

[Beardo the Bearded]

You think that's bad? Try being in Canada. It's like a whole other country. ;) For most stores, the online policy is "you should order lube too, because Customs is going to ream you with a cheese grater".

Add 12% tax, $5 customs handling, $45 brokerage, ~$20 shipping, and 6% duty onto just about anything you buy from the US online. Then wait 4-6 weeks for the item to arrive.

This current tactic will end badly for Amazon

[Shadowruni]

I don't see this as a pricing war. This is a war on the control of Internet commerce. A war in which Amazon is going to lose if they allow it to be a war of attrition. He who has the larger war chest will win. Hearts and minds sounds great on paper but Walmart can give away stuff and lose a quarter or two and take the stock hit. Amazon can't do that on the same level because of what they sale. The also at as an eBay with no bidding for smaller companies that want a very public web presence but can't afford large scale advertising and shipping logistics overhead. Amazon does that for them. As a comparison Walmart can demand that suppliers use particular technologies (cough-UPC-cough, cough-rfid-cough) or they won't do business with them or levy "handling charges" (read:fines). Who do you think will win *THAT* sort of fight. For Amazon to win, they've got to reach into middle America and sell nicer things at a rate near Walmart's and offer free shipping. To make that work they'd need a VERY good distribution network set up, which Walmart already has, and Walmart has buddy-buddy deals with FedEx and UPS. It'll be a *VERY* bloody battle and the only way I see this working is if Costco and Amazon leverage each other's strengths. Just my two cents though.

Re:This current tactic will end badly for Amazon

[brkello]

Have you never ordered stuff from Amazon? They are by far the fastest online retailer I have ever dealt with. I get my free 2-day shipping with prime and generally it ends up at my door the next day. The reviews are better. The products are better. I really don't see this ending badly for either retailer. If anything, it will just be better for the consumers.

considering the arcane state of tax laws,

[Shivetya]

let alone laws governing what can and cannot be shipped to where it is pretty easy to understand that one of the biggest hurdles of establishing a new business is government.

I code for distribution systems myself and the complexity of where items can go, the taxes on each per locale, and even how they must be transported, are mind boggling. Too many times competition includes fighting local governments who seem to find ways to create fines based on that day's interpretation of a law

Wait, WTF?

[Arancaytar]

They are just not going to cede their business to Amazon.' Wal-Mart, with $405 billion in sales last year, dominates by offering affordable prices to Middle America in its 4,000 stores, while Amazon, with $20 billion in sales

'We have to put our foot down and refuse to let them grow more powerful,' says Dias. 'I applaud Wal-Mart. It's about time multichannel retailers stood up and refused to let their business go away.'"

Yes! Down with the Amazon monopoly! Give the underdog with twenty times the annual sales a chance! Preserve competition!

Re:Wait, WTF?

[CannonballHead]

Give the underdog with twenty times the annual sales a chance! Preserve competition!

The question is how much profit, though. Wal-Mart operates a huge number of brick-and-mortar stores. Amazon is completely online...

Wal-Mart probably employs *way* more people, too, so you could even say it's better for the economy ;)

Re:Wait, WTF?

[FlyingBishop]

No profit in the long run. Both of them are contributing to the collapse of the US economy by exacerbating the already absurd trade 'deficit' with other countries, which really amounts to other nations giving us more than we give them in return, and often without us paying for it.

Re:Wait, WTF?

[Yvan256]

If you need to take everything into account then Amazon helps the computer vendors, the ISPs and the shipping companies too.

Re:Wait, WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Wal-Mart probably employs *way* more people, too, so you could even say it's better for the economy ;)"

Underemployment at wal-mart is NOT better for the economy than the mom & pop shops and even smaller chains it replaced. Not by any means. The profits get leeched out of the community, the products are never made in the US.

Re:Wait, WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea I'm sure Amazon's contribution to that outweighs the thousands of people employed in their stores. (Hint: Walmart has computers, internet connections and shipping between warehouses and stores. If anything, Walmart contributes MORE on the reasons you specified)

Re:Wait, WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wal-Mart probably employs *way* more people, too, so you could even say it's better for the economy ;)

Let's not under-exaggerate here, Walmart is the largest private employer on the planet.

Re:Wait, WTF?

[LordKronos]

Give the underdog with twenty times the annual sales a chance! Preserve competition!

The question is how much profit, though. Wal-Mart operates a huge number of brick-and-mortar stores.

Did I read that right? Are you asking how much profit Walmart makes? It almost sounds like you are suggesting maybe their margins are so slim, they aren't really getting rich over it. Take a look at the richest people. Jeff Bezos is #68. The Walton family is #11, #12, #13, and #14 (as a family combined, they're richer than Bill Gates). Yeah, they've certainly got a bit of profit there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_billionaires_(2009)

Re: Products

[Anonymous Coward]

Walmart stays away from heavily populated areas? You mean that cities like San Francisco won't let them in, right? Because WalMart is all over the heavily populated San Francisco Bay Area of California - just not in the places that won't allow "big box stores" like Costco, WalMart, etc.

Lovely...

[hyades1]

This is like two pox-ridden whores fighting over which one gets to service the local hockey team. Whoever comes out on top, the only winner is the guy selling condoms, and the only thing certain is that a lot of people are going to get screwed.

Re:Lovely...

[Yvan256]

It's also a great opportunity for the guy selling screws and screwdrivers!

Re:Lovely...

[Anonymous Coward]

...two pox-ridden whores fighting over which one gets to service the local hockey team. Whoever comes out on top, the only winner is the guy selling condoms...

Wow. SOMEBODY had a rough childhood.

Re:Lovely...

[StikyPad]

Wow. SOMEBODY knows how to make non sequiturs.

purveyors of crap

[kimvette]

Wal-Mart has been the purveyor of crap for many years now. They push companies close to bankruptcy by insisting that the suppliers' margins be pennies per unit - or they push companies to produce cheaper, crappy Wal-Mart versions of their product with a decent profit margin, but agreeing to do it Wal-Mart's way can ruin your company by tarnishing your reputation. When Joe Sixpack buys your Wal-Mart model TV, your Wal-Mart model computer, or your Wal-Mart lawn mower and the thing turns out to be a piece of crap. Your company's name will be tarnished, and you will get the blame, not Wal-Mart. You might make millions in the short term but over the long term, think about shutting down your company and starting a new one,

Check out the Snapper story (the man who said no to walmart)

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/102/open_snapper.html

I shop at Wal-Mart for some things. I don't buy most appliances there though. I buy underwear, DVDs, and personal care items. Electronics, appliances I want to last for more than six months, and other bigger-ticket items I will buy elsewhere.

Re:purveyors of crap

[Applekid]

Your company's name will be tarnished, and you will get the blame, not Wal-Mart.

I'd say the blame belongs where the customer places it. Brand recognition and loyalty goes both ways, and if a company is going to slap a strong name on a piece of garbage just to get on a Walmart shelf then they deserve the erosion.

Re:purveyors of crap

[LandDolphin]

Sometimes you don't need the appliances to last as long. Take TVs for example. People often replace TVs to go bigger, or to get a newer model. If you are changing in your TV every 5 years, than a Wal*Mart TV will do. You don't need to pay for Sony quality (to last 10+ years), when you are looking to get a new set every 5.

Another great example is a DVD player. $20 for a DVD player that you might have to replace after a few years might make more sense for someone than $100-200 for one that will last two, three, even 10 times longer.

Re:purveyors of crap

[Anonymous Coward]

I blame the customers. That's why I'm not a Wal-Mart customer.

Re:purveyors of crap

[PeanutButterBreath]

The blame belongs on the customer who falls for the scam of over-paying for "inexpensive" crap.

Re:purveyors of crap

[winwar]

"Wal-Mart has been the purveyor of crap for many years now."

Funny, I can get that Walmart model through Amazon too. Those models are not just the rejects, they often just have fewer features and hence a lower price. Just fine for people who did not want to pay for all of the worthless features in the first place.

There is a lot of junk too. But do not pretend that every other large retailer is any better than Walmart. They all want to be Walmart with a better reputation. Kind of like a golden turd.

Re: Products

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, since 90% of Canadians live within an hour or so of the border, have it shipped to a package holder -- which ranges from $5 for a small package to $25 for something the size of a refrigerator -- pick it up, unpackage the item, and run it undeclared through customs.

With the exception of holiday sales (like Black Friday, where they take apart vehicles like fiends), customs usually couldn't care less about items totalling under $1000, as long as that doesn't include the evil trilogy of alcohol, tobacco or firearms.

Oh really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if Walmart wants to overtake Amazon and therefore dominate online sales, then a good place to start would be selling unedited CDs. Who wants that edited bullshit? Plenty of other improvements would also have to be made to even approach Amazon IMO, but not censoring everything would be a good first step.

What he meant to say was...

[zarmanto]

'We have to put our foot down and refuse to let them grow more powerful...'

... before they erode our market share beyond repair!

'I applaud Wal-Mart. It's about time multichannel retailers...'

... started hawking their wares at prices closer to what they're really worth!

(I love quotes that just beg for corrections.)

Re: Products

[Anonymous Coward]

> Add 12% tax, $5 customs handling, $45 brokerage, ~$20 shipping, and 6% duty onto just about anything you buy from the US online. Then wait 4-6 weeks for the item to arrive

I'm just speaking as a dumb 'merican here, but WTF is "brokerage"? Down here that's a financial firm who helps you buy and sell stocks.

Anyway, maybe you just need a friend in the states who can order stuff for you without all that overhead, and then send it up for $8 postage/UPS/Fedex/whatever. Seems like that should be both faster and cheaper, no? I've sent packages from the US to Canada before and the postage was a bit more than domestic, but it wasn't outrageous, and they got there much faster than 4 weeks!

Walmart not as well-run as believed...

[Black-Man]

I wouldn't step foot in a Walmart where I live. Crowded... cluttered aisles... dirty. But a place I visit in WV where the Walmart has no competition... its clean, very organized and very Target-like. It seems when they get serious about their business, they do fine. I would be worried if I was Amazon.

Re:Walmart not as well-run as believed...

[StormyWeather]

That's mainly due to the manager, and the region. My town has 4 wal-mart super centers. The ones in the nice part of town are clean, and they don't bother you at the doors. In the worse part of town they are dirty, and they check everything in your cart on the way out. I was installing some register equipment there once, and was talking to the manager, and he said that he had managed two of the other wal-marts, and that at the worse off neighborhood they actually spent almost twice the amount on maintenance and groundskeeping, the people were just more likely to drop things they didn't want on the ground instead of putting them back on the shelf, and more likely to throw bags on the ground next to their car instead of walking back to put them in a trash bin.

Re:Walmart not as well-run as believed...

[KermodeBear]

And that is precisely why feel-good projects that "clean up the bad neighborhood" never work in the long term. Sure, you can head to the poor parts of town, pick up the trash, paint a few houses, whatever, that's very nice and I'm sure that it give people a warm fuzzy feeling... But ultimately, unless the people who live there put in the (minimal) effort to keep up after themselves, it will just go back to the way it was.

Re:Walmart not as well-run as believed...

[Eponymous Coward]

There's some odd psychology at play when it comes to trash and littering. I used to live in Portland, OR and while I was there, I read that the city had removed trash cans from the city-owned parking garages. They found that actually reduced the amount of litter in and around the parking structures.

Re:Walmart not as well-run as believed...

[LandDolphin]

Probably because they did not empty them often enough. Once it over flows, a lot of people don't have a problem throwing trash on the ground near it.

Re:Walmart not as well-run as believed...

[plague3106]

Well its cheap junk, so who cares if it ends up on the floor?

I don't get spammed by WalMart.

[John Hasler]

n/t

Re:I don't get spammed by WalMart.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dumbass... Amazon's email management works. Use it.

Re: Products

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop using "UPS Ground" for the shipping and you should be able to eliminate the brokerage fees. UPS are evil like that. Their faster/better services are just a tiny bit more expensive (UPS Express?) and are supposed to exclude this fee (last time I didn't have any).

Or, you know, just say "fuck UPS" and go with another carrier if possible.

Amazon Prime FTW!

[TheNarrator]

I have Amazon Prime so I get free two day shipping on everything and $3.99 overnight shipping. You would be amazed at how heavy an item I can get shipped overnight for $3.99. 2-day and overnight shipping anywhere else seems like a complete ripoff.

Re:Amazon Prime FTW!

[jaymz666]

It's not free if you are paying $79 a year for it...

Re:Amazon Prime FTW!

[suresk]

Yeah, Prime is pretty sweet. A few months back, I ordered a new telescope on Friday morning and it was there the next morning. The charge for overnight, Saturday delivery? $7. I'm pretty sure that paid for Prime all by itself.

Re:Amazon Prime FTW!

[sucati]

I have a friend who lets me buy stuff with their prime account. He can even use my credit card. In return I buy him lunch. You can make a little business out of it.

Re:Amazon Prime FTW!

[AmberBlackCat]

Do you and your friend know he can add three people to the Amazon Prime service and they can each get the free shipping with their own account after that?

Re: Products

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahhh. You must have used UPS. Pretty much everyone I know here (Ontario) avoids them for cross border shipping. They hit you with a tonne of hidden and unexpected charges and I know people who have been burnt really bad by this (ended up paying more than just buying it retail here)

Re: Products

[Red Flayer]

Well, color me confused, I see it as $18 on both Walmart's and Amazon's site.

What? Walmart: $14.49 Amazon: $14.50

Don't get me wrong, this is great news for consumers but I think you're just seeing preperation for a Black Friday feeding frenzy and not actual 'price wars.'

Prices have since changed, so the prices you've found don't reflect historical pricing. As for the "Black Friday feeding frenzy" vs. price wars... those aren't mutually exclusive. Periods of high sales volume are when it's most important to be able to adjust prices relevant to competition -- especially if engaged in a price war to capture volume.

Wal-Mart stays away from heavily populated areas and makes most of its bank from the heartland anyway.

Hah. How many Walmarts are there in NJ, the nation's most densely populated state? Lots. How about the San Francisco Bay area, as another poster pointed out?

At any rate, it is competition. What cracks me up is that someone siding with Walmart is claiming that Amazon is trying to drive B&M shops out of existence, and Walmart must defend B&M retail outlets against the predations of Amazon. Seems to me that Amazon is playing the same game Walmart played that drove all the traditional retailers out of business... giving customers lower prices due to reduced overhead.

News For

[Anonymous Coward]

people who haven't heard about the news for 2 weeks !

Vvverrryyyy oooollllldddd.

In other news: Obama to send troops to Af-pak-raq-istan.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Yours In Volgograd,
Kilgore Trout

Amazon Prime

[Brad Mace]

don't forget Amazon Prime. $80/yr for free 2-day shipping? That's a guaranteed money-loser for them. And I'm shocked by what they include in that offer. They've sent me all sorts of heavy and bulky items including a 70-pound air compressor and a storage cabinet that was about 4'x4'x3', all free 2-day shipping. Beats driving to the store any day. It also gets you upgrades to overnight shipping for $3.99, so unless you absolutely must have it this instant, online shopping wins.

Re:Amazon Prime

[Achromatic1978]

It also gets you upgrades to overnight shipping for $3.99, so unless you absolutely must have it this instant, online shopping wins.

And they are now trialling $6.99 same day shipping in select cities, order before 11am and have it by the end of the day.

Re:Amazon Prime

[bryansj]

They offer the $6.99 on some items when ordering next day on a Friday for Saturday delivery. I received Saturday delivery last week using Prime at no charge, but I assume this might have to do with extended hours of FedEx leading into the holidays.

Re:Amazon Prime

[jayme0227]

don't forget Amazon Prime. $80/yr for free 2-day shipping? That's a guaranteed money-loser for them.

Most businesses do not have consciences, especially those with over a billion dollars in revenues, so stop trying to pretend that they do. There is no way that they put out a "guaranteed money-loser." Period. Either it makes them money or they stop doing it. My best guess - Amazon Prime encourages users to use Amazon more consistently which allows a greater amount of profit to be gleaned from them than if they had not signed up for Amazon Prime. My employer offers free 3-day shipping for $30 a year. Some online retailers offer free shipping all year with no requirement of membership to a "special club." Most retailers offer free shipping offers so regularly that it might as well be 100% free all the time.

If you don't believe me, check out this trade magazine for more than 3 seconds. Amazon Prime is not some amazingly special gift from God to Amazon's customers. It is a money making tool, plain and simple.

Re:Amazon Prime

[j00r0m4nc3r]

That's a guaranteed money-loser for them

I'm sure all their high-priced accountants and MBA's must have overlooked that.

Re:Amazon Prime

[TooMuchToDo]

With the volume Amazon does, trust me, they aren't paying retail rates for shipping. And just like Wal-Mart, can heavily negotiate prices with their vendors.

Re:Amazon Prime

[lena_10326]

That's a guaranteed money-loser for them

Not likely. Mail and package carriers discount on bulk shipping and large, heavy, expensive items are a small percentage of the total order volume. Most of the volume is with the cheap lightweight stuff: books, dvds, computer games, clothing, etc so the average will skew toward the lighter end. Plus not every customer will consume $80 worth in shipping. Even if you personally consume $300+ in shipping, there will be many others who consume far below $80. It operates similar to insurance--averaging the cost over a large population.

Also, there would have been a lot of research and market testing. No cost conscious company would roll that out without first being confident in the cost projections.

Re:Amazon Prime

[brkello]

Actually, I got an e-mail a month or so ago that Prime members now can get free Saturday delivery. I freaking love that place. I buy everything except my groceries there...and if they ever add that, sign me up!

Re:Amazon Prime

[keithpreston]

don't forget Amazon Prime. $80/yr for free 2-day shipping? That's a guaranteed money-loser for them..

I would bet that Amazon Prime is one of their biggest profit centers. With proper supply chain management, an Amazon Warehouse is ALWAYS close enough to you for normal ground shipping to only take 2 days. So essentially they are shipping it the cheapest ways possible for probably 90% of their prime shipments, yet they get people to pay "extra" for it. They already have free shipping above $25, which means that they are padding their prices to absorb the shipping costs. The only value Amazon prime is would be on low stock item at distance warehouses, even then the argument that they get amazing discounts from UPS makes the extra cost fairly negligible.

Re:Amazon Prime

[Chosen Reject]

If you live in the Seattle area: Amazon Fresh

Re:Amazon Prime

[falconwolf]

unless you absolutely must have it this instant, online shopping wins.

I prefer to being able to easily and quickly return things, especially if I'm going to spend a lot.

Falcon

Re: Products

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is a gotcha. If you live in certain states that don't tax online purchases and can wait it is always cheaper to buy online. Of course some of us internet users already knew that. I almost always buy online unless I need it right away. The only issue I have with Amazon is if you buy from one of their preferred vendors but not Amazon themselves the shipment takes forever usually to get. I bought something recently and it was supposed to be 3 to 5 days and it turned out to be closer to 12 days before I received it. So if you buy on Amazon.com expect delays sometimes and purchase accordingly.

Re: Products

[Anonymous Coward]

Try googling "ups brokerage fees" and you will see a very sad story. Here is example from first hit http://forums.ebay.ca/topic/Bidding-And-Buying/50-Ups-Brokerage/600012557

Re: Products

[Eponymous Coward]

Their stock seems pretty flat to me. Especially when you compare it to Amazon's.

Re: Products

[amilo100]

Add 12% tax, $5 customs handling, $45 brokerage, ~$20 shipping, and 6% duty onto just about anything you buy from the US online.

I was under the impression that Canadians liked paying taxes.

Anyone else here hope..

[jhfry]

that they continue to battle for the lowest price until both of them go broke?

I especially hope to see Walmart suffer a long agonizing death. I live in suburban Detroit, and the amount of vacant retail space that was generated by the growth of Walmart and Meijer is staggering... and I know its much worse in rural towns.

I used to be able to choose from several stores, each with a unique selection of reasonably priced goods, and usually exceptional customer service.

Now I walk a quarter mile to get in the front door, to be greeted by some old lady who probably owned one of the shops that closed and shes still bitter about it, and walk another half mile to get the few things I need, and finally I stand in a long line to pay another bitter minimum wage worker so I can walk back out to my car. In all I probably saved 2-3% over what the old stores would have charged me.

Meanwhile, Walmart has forced its suppliers to cut prices so much that even companies that used to be proud to produce their product with US labor have outsourced it to try and retain some of their profit margin... because without Walmart they don't exist to most consumers anymore.

I am just thankful that there are a couple of smaller grocers, and a few decent malls nearby with stores that are very responsive to their customers. To be in a rural community where its Walmart or nothing would be a form of torture.

Re:Anyone else here hope..

[LandDolphin]

To be in a rural community where its Walmart or nothing would be a form of torture.

Isn't living in Detroit a form of torture?

Walmart vs. Amazon

[Anita Coney]

Amazon does not really have to compete on price. While at worst people might be agnostic towards Amazon, they hate Walmart.

Very few people are going to dump Amazon merely because the Evil Empire's a little cheaper. Buying is more than merely getting a product. The actual buying is but a small part of a larger service.

It's similar to Newegg. Newegg does not always have the lowest prices. But I know they ship the same day so I'll get it quickly and they'll fix any problems if something goes wrong. So if it's tech related, I almost always buy from Newegg. For nearly everything else, I use Amazon.

Re:Walmart vs. Amazon

[WuphonsReach]

It's similar to Newegg. Newegg does not always have the lowest prices. But I know they ship the same day so I'll get it quickly and they'll fix any problems if something goes wrong. So if it's tech related, I almost always buy from Newegg. For nearly everything else, I use Amazon.

Mmm, NewEgg's big advantage early on is their outstanding website with excellent search and mostly stellar categorization of product. At NewEgg, I can quickly answer the question for next quarter's budget of "how much should we expect to spend for 22" monitors that support 1680x1050". Or finding all 7200rpm SATA drives over 800GB. Or looking for motherboards that support a particular CPU socket. Or prices for 16-port gigabit switches.

A trivial set of examples, but try do the same sort of searches at CDW, MWave, TheNerds.net or a few other companies that used to be "big". A lot of them are getting better, but NewEgg really did it up right early on which is why for the past few years they're pretty much my sole supplier.

The only reason I still buy from MWave is because they offer pre-tested motherboard bundles. Which is well worth the $10 or so that they charge to guarantee me that the RAM, CPU and motherboard all work together and won't be DOA.

Re: Products

[snspdaarf]

Customs brokerage. A company that handles the ugly part of the import/export business, the dealing with the government part.

Re: Products

[rrwood]

I was under the impression that Canadians liked paying taxes.

Well played, my American friend. :-)

Signed, A Canadian, eh

Re: Products

[ISoldat53]

Let's see if they lower the price on Apple products.

Re: Products

[Anonymous Coward]

And you thinks that's bad!!!!???

Try being in Mexico where people make ~$1600 USD *annually* and you have to add 16% tax, ~$100 shipping and ~$1,000 monthly for protection from Goverments' terrorists (like Fidel Herrera's Zethas).

Re: Products

[Abstrackt]

I do a lot of cross-border pickups, both for myself and for work, and can tell you that they do start to care if they see you often enough. They do get a good laugh out of what you would have paid for it here in Canada though.

Getting in is easy, just tell them you're driving across to save yourself the ridiculous shipping and brokerage fees. As for getting out, just tell them where you were, show them the invoice, sign the form, pay the bill and off you go. Bonus points if you drive across with an empty tank and fill up on cheap gas while you're down there.

If you're in or near Winnipeg, Connie's Depot in Walhalla, ND charges $5 (USD or CAD) for small packages and $15 per pallet. There's also a gas station half a block south so you can get the aforementioned cheap gas.

Hurray for sniping !

[redelm]

Whether you like megacorps or not (I guess WalMart is considered the heavy here), why complain of competition? "Inventing in mkt.size" does not work -- the marginal customers you attract are the most fickle.

I have long though Amazon was milking their market and have a dated UI. Not that WalMart doesn't shoot themselves in the foot. Reliably.

Re: Products

[afidel]

Wal-Mart is capitalism in action, for all the good and bad that entails. A recent study showed that Wal-Mart has save the mean family $3k/year and the median family $650/year in the last two years. They have also kept wages depressed around the world.

Brick-and-mortar stores have an advantage.

[reporter]

Like other brick-and-mortar stores, Walmart has a distinct advantage over Amazon and other stores that have only an online presence.

Namely, products at Walmart can be sold through 2 channels: online visitors and in-store visitors. If a product cannot be sold online, then the product can remain on the shelf for an in-store visitor to buy.

If a product offered by Amazon cannot be sold online, the product sits in the warehouse. The product in the warehouse is a continuing drain on Amazon's finances since Amazon must pay the cost of maintaining the warehouse.

Amazon has been competitive against smaller retailers like Mervyns (which never survived bankruptcy) because the warehouses of Amazon are huge and offer much variety. If you cannot find a pair of pants with the right size, you can likely find the right size at Amazon.

However, this advantage is ineffective against Walmart. It is the largest retailer in the world. The variety that Walmart offers rivals Amazon.

Walmart will crush Amazon. The bell tolls for Amazon.

Why Amazon will always be better then Wal-Mart

[trk204]

And I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but I'll try and word it as PC as possible. Amazon offers a more comfortable shopping experience. Now for the non-PC version. Shop at amazon and you won't have to bump into the rude, unkept, gross smelling slobs that tend to ONLY shop at wal-mart. There I said it, I know we're all thinking it.

Re:Why Amazon will always be better then Wal-Mart

[jayme0227]

So what you're saying is - you don't have to wade into the shallow end of the gene pool?

I shop at Wal-mart because I'm a cheap bastard. I worked their for 2 years (Really. And I have no problems with the way they treat their workers. Crazy, huh?) and, outside of some of the people who work/shop there, I have no problems with them. If you use common sense, you can get quality product at a good price.

Re:Why Amazon will always be better then Wal-Mart

[mister_playboy]

You prefer snobs to slobs, eh?

Re: Products

[Xoltri]

If you are in Canada and are ordering from the US, only ever use regular USPS. UPS can die in a fiery auto crash for the scam they pull with the brokerage charges.

Then don't go to Walmart

[p51d007]

I love it when people bitch & moan about Walmart. Just because their business model WORKS and others don't, they get all pissy because of "big business", complaining they don't pay enough, they are non union bla bla bla. Since I live within 150 miles of the headquarters, there are a LOT of people who started out working for Walmart in high school, kept in their stock (some provided by the company) and are living a VERY wealthy retirement. If you think you can do better, start your own company like Walmart and compete. It wasn't a big success overnight. Sam started Walmart with one store in Bentonville in the 60's and now look how big they are! It doesn't happen overnight, but, a lot of Americans want "instant" success.

Re:Then don't go to Walmart

[Anonymous Coward]

You put a lot of words in my mouth there. I didn't say any reasons why I won't shop at Wal-Mart, but you are free to invent as many as you would like. It just shows your own biases.

Re:Then don't go to Walmart

[KlomDark]

Walmart when Sam Walton was alive is a completely different beast than the Post-Sam Walmart.

Walmart was a wonderful, good company back in the day. But Sam's kids have wrecked it pretty bad.

Re: Products

[Anonymous Coward]

We in Canada also tend to pay higher prices for many goods, even though our dollar is nearly at par with the US dollar. Case in point, a pair of Levis jeans at JC Penney costs $33 US (even less if you find a JC Penney coupon online). The same jeans at Sears Canada cost $85 CDN. And JC Penney is forbidden to ship Levis to Canada (I know, I phoned them and asked).

Re: Products

[loteck]

For those interested in the study, you can find it on IHS Global Insight's page: pdf here.

Re: Products

[abigor]

I order from Amazon.com all the time, and I've never dealt with taxes and brokerage. There's shipping and handling and duty, and that's it. Items usually arrive within a week. I think you are making this up.

Re: Products

[Xacid]

When I was in Canada about 6 months ago they didn't even have an online presence there. It seemed like the way that business is run there is entirely different than how it is here in the states. Not sure if that's a good thing though....

Re: Products

[plague3106]

So in other words, once you've factored in the depressed wages, its a net loss.

Amazon is the last good retailer

[Anonymous Coward]

Went to Best Buy today (for the first time in a year) to buy a CD/DVD which Amazon said they were out of stock with. $20.99 on the Best Buy website but $27.99 for the in-store price. I will NEVER shop there again.

Amazon is just pure class compared to the modern store retailer.

Re: Products

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of Canadian retailers don't have much of an online presence. The Bay still doesn't put their catalogue online (although Sears Canada does). Canadian bicycle shops are the worst for this, almost none put their catalogue online, whereas just about every bike retailer in the US (Colorado Cyclist, Performance, Nashbar, etc.) has their catalogue up.

Re: Products

[CodeBuster]

I was under the impression that Canadians liked paying taxes.

Someone has to pay for all of that "free" healthcare, it might as well be you.

Battle?

[flyneye]

I believe if Wal~Mart and Amazon are going to battle it out, it should be with thermonuclear weapons. Who's with me on this?

Re: Products

[CodeBuster]

The only issue I have with Amazon is if you buy from one of their preferred vendors but not Amazon themselves the shipment takes forever usually to get.

That is why I frequently don't buy if it is sold by a vendor partner instead of Amazon; especially if I can purchase it somewhere locally where I live. The outside vendors are usually small businesses who are too darn cheap to actually keep the items that they claim to stock in inventory. They wait until they receive an order from Amazon before they even attempt to get the item from their suppliers and you have already paid them up front. This is an old trick used by small businesses taking orders online and particularly by those that are looking for quick hit one-off sales and don't care as much about repeat customers (i.e. they don't believe that you will come back again anyway because you found them through an Amazon search and not because you actually wanted to buy your camping equipment from 'Bobs World of Camping' in some backwater town in the southeastern United States).

Re: Products

[fullgandoo]

Oh not he's not. You've just been lucky so far!

Re: Products

[Xacid]

What the heck is up with that? That drove me NUTS when I was living there for half a year. I half-suspect it's somehow tied into the culture there - people seem to not completely concede to huge businesses; just look at Starbucks vs. Second Cup vs. Tim Hortons. It's almost a really cool - but then again, it gets "really cool" there which would make MORE sense for online stores to exist. And to give those poor postmen a raise!

Re: Products

[LitelySalted]

Hey, it's expensive to have things travel Moose.

Re: Products

[OctaviusIII]

Yeah, that sounds like UPS, and Amazon.com (why not use Amazon.ca anyway?) uses USPS, which is actually quite inexpensive and relatively prompt. No, you're buying from tiny stores that only ship via UPS because... well, I don't know why but they do. Wal-Mart should also be shipping via USPS, although why not just go to a brick-and-mortar place anyway? Or their Canadian site?

Re: Products

[CodeBuster]

They have also kept wages depressed around the world.

High wages are not necessarily a panacea if they are also accompanied by high inflation and high prices. What maters is the purchasing power of those wages, not their absolute amounts. Money is primarily a means of exchange and unit of account, not so much a store of wealth anymore. If you don't believe that then ask yourself why the wealthiest people in this world generally choose to keep so little of their wealth, as a percentage, in the form of cash.

Re: Products

[failedlogic]

Shop at Winners. Sears and the Bay are expensive.

VOTE: who you would you rather see win this fight?

[cdpage]

Personally i would rather see Wal-mart go up in flames... (Amazon [US] seems to be playing the same game now too though so i'm not so sure anymore.)

Does Amazon practice the same methods of Business as Wal-Mart? That is, telling their suppliers what they will pay for the product and then selling it for the price they want.

Frankly, unless you have a patent of some kind, like Lego, or Apple, you don't stand a chance with out selling your soul to them. They'll just find someone else who can import from China or the like for less. creating unrealistic competition in the market place.

people say that the consumers only wins in wars like this... but i beg to differ.. it time, this is the worst thing for us. A disposable society costs more than one that builds itself on lifetime quality.

Retail Priorities

[ATLHivemind]

For Computer Gear/Electronics: NewEgg, Fry's or BeastBuy if time beats money. For Media and general homeware type stuff I don't need RIGHT NOW or isn't too heavy: Amazon et.al. For local homewares: Target, & WallyWorld, specialty retailers for bulky things If I need something RIGHT NOW and its 3am on a sunday: Wally World. My roommate just got a job as a cashier at WallyWorld over the holidays. It may not be great work, but it's work.

Re: Products

[bughunter]

I was under the impression that Canadians liked paying taxes.

That's because Canadians like having a government that provides them with basic services and infrastructure, pays more than lip service to the welfare of its citizens, and does it without running up a leviathan of debt.

Amazon, too

[DogDude]

Amazon isn't a saint, either. Keep in mind that I think that they only directly sell books and music. Everything else that they sell is a from an actual retailer, from whom Amazon has taken 15% (INCLUDING SHIPPING CHARGES), and given zero recognition. If you're an online retailer, Amazon is just as bad as Wal-Mart is to manufacturers. I had the opportunity to be one of the earlier Amazon sellers, but walked away from it when I realized that on many items, I would take a loss, while gaining zero brand recognition.

Amazon wins

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll pay the extra $0.05 to at Amazon and avoid the people of walmart.

Re: Products

[Anonymous Coward]

Taxes, yes -- but most of that goes directly to UPS.

Plus, talk to Albertans about paying taxes... they had NO sales/services taxes until the Feds hoisted the GST on them.

Conversely, look at Washington State....

Re: Products

[Beardo the Bearded]

Amazon.ca doesn't have nearly the selection of amazon.com. We can't get any electronics, for example. It's a good resource for reviews, but that's it. I prefer to use USPS for cross-border shipping, but let's face it, it's only a matter of time before they have the same realization at UPS -- hey, we can charge everyone in an entire country $45 and there's NOTHING. THEY. CAN. DO. ABOUT. IT.

I usually go to my FL?S to buy stuff, but we've beaten this to death, then so hard the integer wrapped, and then to death again on scubaboard. (and likely, every other hobby board in the universe)

As an example, I can get a Dive-Alert Plus in town for about $160. For the same money at ScubaToys, I can also get an SMB, a strobe, a whistle, a slate, a reel, and a pocket.

Re: Products

[petermgreen]

I was under the impression that Canadians liked paying taxes.
Speaking as a brit it's not so much the tax per-se (I mean it's a pain but no more so than getting hit with the VAT at the checkout when you shop as a private customer at a mostly B2B site) as the fact that the courior companies use the customs brokerage and collection of the tax as an excuse for slapping on a somewhat hidden* extra fee to international shipments.

At least in the UK when ordering internationally it is better to specify that things be sent through the postal service if possible. In the UK the post offices brokerage fee is not too steep, lower value packages get an exemption and many higher value packages seem to slip through the net.

*it is often very difficult to find out what the fees for a purchase will be before actually receiving it and most online suppliers don't even make it particually clear that such fees are likely.

Re: Products

[BikeHelmet]

Sounds like it. USPS isn't nearly that expensive, but UPS always hammers you with extra charges. They seem to also round up on the value of a product, so if something costs $29, that's the $50 bracket, and gets a $40 handling fee.

Wal-Mart Wins

[Anonymous Coward]

Wal-Mart is winning in my book as they take PayPal and Amazon doesn't. I always use PayPal when buying stuff online.

Re:Wal-Mart Wins

[Brad Mace]

Wal-Mart is winning in my book as they take PayPal and Amazon doesn't. I always use PayPal when buying stuff online.

lol, you owe me a keyboard. Preferably from amazon

Eh.. What about the environmental impact.

[WiiVault]

And it creates massive piles in landfills and burns our limited fuels in production and transport. No thanks.

Re: Products

[falconwolf]

JC Penney is forbidden to ship Levis to Canada (I know, I phoned them and asked).

I don't think it can be illegal for JC Penny to ship to Canada, from what I understand that is a violation of NAFTA. It could only be illegal if Blue Jeans was illegal in Canada.

Falcon

At any rate, it is competition.

[falconwolf]

What cracks me up is that someone siding with Walmart is claiming that Amazon is trying to drive B&M shops out of existence, and Walmart must defend B&M retail outlets against the predations of Amazon. Seems to me that Amazon is playing the same game Walmart played that drove all the traditional retailers out of business... giving customers lower prices due to reduced overhead.

It seems to me that when competition benefits people they support it but when they have to compeat they don't. When it lowers their own costs they like it but when it reduces their pay they don't. But that doesn't explain it all. Many got upset over employers offshore outsourcing jobs as well as adding competition in health care and insurance by not allowing people to buy insurance across state lines and getting the same tax deductions employers get for offering insurance.

Falcon

bookstores

[falconwolf]

I buy books from Barnes and Nobles, not Amazon, because I like to support brick and mortar book stores. I buy both online and in the store.

Why aren't you buying from locally owned small bookstores instead of B&N? Amazon and Barnes and Noble are both big box stores that caused some small businesses to close.

Falcon

Re:bookstores

[DavidTC]

HA! Locally owned bookstores. That's a laugh.

Why don't you actually show me a locally owned new bookstore?

Let's see, in town, there's the antique bookstore in town that has absolutely nothing I'd be interested, and yes, I've checked. There used to be a microscopic other used bookstore in town, that had had maybe 200 books total, and that wasn't even worth the two minutes I spent in it.

There's the Humpus Bumpus used bookstore 35 minutes away that I've actually purchased all the books I even slightly want from it. I go back in there about once a year to see if there's anything interesting.

There was also another used book store, 35 minutes away, but it sold all the books to someone else and closed. It was actually crap, through, full of decaying moldy hardbacks from the 80s with acidified paper. I went in there a dozen times, I think I bought two books.

And various other book exchanges I go into, but, of course, none of them have anything new.

That, you see, is the problem. I'm all for used book stores. I go in different ones all the time.

But there is not, and has never been, a new non-chain bookstore anywhere around here. Why don't you point me to a new book store even slightly in driving distance that isn't another chain? I live in the zip code 30533, in the Northeast Georgia mountain.

I'm driving 40 minutes to get to Barnes and Nobles as it is. (There's a bookstore, Books-a-Million, that is 5-10 minutes closer in the theory, but much further in traffic. And is also a chain.) Before that one opened, I had to drive 50-55 minutes to a book store.

Big box stores do make local businesses go out of business...if they bothered to exist in the first place. Here, local new bookstores do not exist at all. They never have.

Re: Products

[Anonymous Coward]

So in other words, once you've factored in the depressed wages, its a net loss.

Absolutely. We pay slightly lower prices to minimum wage cashiers for vastly inferior goods made in overseas plants that are exempt from pollution, worker safety, and fair wage laws. The factory workers toil for a few farthings per day, six or seven days per week. The factory owner makes enough money to live like a king in his country (which is to say he's not paid a lot, either.) The shippers make a few dollars. WMT makes the rest of the money.

So the money that goes into WMTs pockets, apart from the local payrolls and expenses at the stores, is removed from our economy.

How many Coffee Shops though?

[falconwolf]

There are a few cafes within a short walking distance, including a Starbucks, but the closest Walmart I know of is 20 to 30 minutes drive.

Falcon

Amazon would still have an advantage.

[falconwolf]

I can order from Amazon at midnight from home after spending 4 hours researching online. With WalMart I still have to drive someplace where I wouldn't normally be going.

I can order from Walmart online but I can't return an item ordered from Amazon locally. Or make an exchange locally. I care more about that than having to drive. I actually love to drive.

Falcon

Re: Products

[rdnetto]

You think that's bad? Try ordering something from Australia.

Re: Products

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you buy apple related products, and apples, at the local supermarket och produce market?

Re: Products

[drinkypoo]

This is one of the reasons I like to shop on eBay when possible. Not only do I always get to pay via paypal, which I generally prefer (I find it to be a good way to make payments, at least) but eBay prohibits the sale of anything you don't actually have, and if that has happened I can get my money back rapidly and make another purchase.

Re: Products

[hesaigo999ca]

Ahhhh, daniel-san you have much to learn.
You must use that which you were born with, your evil nature.

Freeport forwarding allows you to send something you bought online to their warehouse just across the border.
Then ...you go pick it up, and unwrap whatever it is you bought....then just make as if it was already in your car when you went through the border...as most of them don't check going out, as they do coming in.

I do this all the time, because of tigerdirect being the *ssholes they are, especially when they were still overpricing their inventory for the.ca site. At the time when both american and canadian dollars were at par, you would think the prices should be the same, seeing as we are charged shipping and taxes as well...but the canadian site was 10 to 20$ more expensive then american. Soooo...

I created an american account, used my cc, then went to pick it up, and I got free shipping and no taxes to pay.
So for an item that cost me 200$ all inclusive, I would have totalled about330$ canadian for the same item, when both dollars were at par....!!!!

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

AMAZON was a quirky startup

[Anonymous Coward]

Just books and CDs and DVDs back then.

I recall people had severe doubts as to Amazon's viability back then.

Re: Products

[jabelli]

Not forbidden by law, forbidden by their contract with Levi.

Re: Products

[Beardo the Bearded]

Good idea, but I'm 8000 km away from New York. ;)

I live on an island -- it's $160 and 3 hours on just the ferry, then another 2 hours (return) plus gas to visit the US.

Also, you can bring back $200 worth of stuff if you're over the border for less than 24 hours, so you weren't actually pulling anything on the Border Agents. You forgot to buy some booze while you were down there so it looks like you were only fooling yourself.

For the Americans, our alcohol is heavily taxed in Canada -- the cheapest wine on the shelf will be $10 here.

Re: Products

[Beardo the Bearded]

Not anymore.

http://www.debtclock.ca/

Not as many figures as the American one, but it ticks over pretty steadily nonetheless.

HA! Locally owned bookstores. That's a laugh.

[falconwolf]

HAHA! You refuse to buy from Amazon but patronize a bigger big box retailer. Me, while I prefer to patronize local stores as it is now I have to watch my budget so if I buy a book I will buy it from whoever has the lowest price. And even though I have Barnes and Nobles' Readers Advantage discount card Amazon is frequently cheaper. For instance I'm looking for a book on Ubuntu, Jaunty or Karmic, as I want to install it on my Mac. When I want a book on a specific subject I'll go to different stores to look at the available books, then once I decide what book to get I'll shop for the cheapest price.

Not working and having my disability screwed around with the only choice I have is to buy from the cheapest store I can find or not buy.

Big box stores do make local businesses go out of business...if they bothered to exist in the first place.

I know, er knew, two people who owned and ran separate bookstores. Both were converted houses. I moved away more than 10 years ago but one of the stores is still open, the Spiral Circle.

Re:HA! Locally owned bookstores. That's a laugh.

[DavidTC]

HAHA! You refuse to buy from Amazon but patronize a bigger big box retailer.

I don't 'refuse' to buy from Amazon at all. I refuse to buy from Walmart, I just don't buy from Amazon. (And my moral problem with Walmart has nothing to do with their habit of crowding out competitors, it is how they treat their workers that I dislike.)

I buy from B&N because, although it sometimes costs more, it also supports actual physical bookstores, which in my part of the world, almost do not exist at all. I am afraid that if Amazon keeps growing, local bookstores will cease to exist.

However, only crazy people think B&N is bigger than Amazon.

B&N had sales of $1.2 billion last quarter. Amazon had sales of $5.5 billion. Amazon had $2.5 billion of sales in just books!

When I want a book on a specific subject I'll go to different stores to look at the available books, then once I decide what book to get I'll shop for the cheapest price.

'Different stores'? Well, I have...some Barnes and Noble, I have some Borders, which are the same price as B&N, also chain stores, and I have a B&N discount card, so I might as well go to B&N, and there's a single Book-a-Million, also a chain store, that I rather dislike the location of. (It's in a crappy mall in the middle of a nearby city I never go to.)

I think I've explained this clearly enough. You just read right past the part of my post where I explained I'm choosing to shop, physically, at B&N vs. some locally-owned new book store because Barnes and Nobles actually exists and the other does not. It is the same reason I choose to drive my car instead of flying around in my jetpack.

Both were converted houses. I moved away more than 10 years ago but one of the stores is still open, the Spiral Circle [spiralcircle.com].

And yes, if you live in Orlando Florida you there might, in fact, be an actual local bookstore you can buy books at. A city with an urban population of 2,054,574.

I live in a county with an population 1/100th of that. The whole county. And it's one of the more populated counties surrounding it.

Re:HA! Locally owned bookstores. That's a laugh.

[falconwolf]

HAHA! You refuse to buy from Amazon but patronize a bigger big box retailer.

I don't 'refuse' to buy from Amazon at all.

Why then did you say this:
"I buy books from Barnes and Nobles, not Amazon, because I like to support brick and mortar book stores. I buy both online and in the store."

I am afraid that if Amazon keeps growing, local bookstores will cease to exist.

As others have already said Amazon has affiliate stores. With Amazon it is possible for a small local bookstore to sell books on Amazon. It's also possible for local bookstores to have a cafe, no law says only B&N or Borders can have cafes. Many people, including me, go to B&N for the cafe. If there were a locally owned bookstore with a cafe I'd go there. I don't buy books or magazines every tyme I go to the cafe but it does increase the likelihood I will buy from them.

However, only crazy people think B&N is bigger than Amazon.

Amazon is bigger than B&N, whereas B&N market capitalization is $1.38 Billion Amazon's is $58.03.

'Different stores'? Well, I have...some Barnes and Noble, I have some Borders

Admittedly a big metro area, where I live we have more than just B&N and Borders. Yesterday on my way to a medical appointment, riding my bike, I stopped at a bookstore not owned by either chain. I have been to other locally owned bookstores as well. Also not all B&Ns and Borders carry the same books. When looking for a specific book I can go to one B&N and if they don't have it they can call other local stores to see if they have them. That is handy when it is something I want that day.

there's a single Book-a-Million

I haven't seen one of those around here though there was one where I used to live.

I think I've explained this clearly enough. You just read right past the part of my post where I explained I'm choosing to shop, physically, at B&N vs. some locally-owned new book store because Barnes and Nobles actually exists and the other does not.

In your original post I replied to you say nothing what so ever about there being no locally owned bookstores. It wasn't until I asked why you weren't buying from them until you said there were none. Now what's the possibility you would have said that if I had not asked?

And yes, if you live in Orlando Florida you there might, in fact, be an actual local bookstore you can buy books at.

I used to but obviously not now. And it wasn't always a big city. At one tyme a major employer in the area was McCoy Air Force Base, which closed in 1975. Even after Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom opened Orlando took years before it became a "big city".

I live in a county with an population 1/100th of that. The whole county.

That population figure you gave for Orlando is the greater Orlando area not specifically the city itself, the city's population itself is 230,514. The Greater Orlando area is made up of 4 counties.

I must say you didn't read about Orlando that well, just well enough to get the greater area's population.

Falcon

Re:HA! Locally owned bookstores. That's a laugh.

[DavidTC]

You have come up with some imaginary reason I don't shop at Amazon, and then have come up with reasons this imaginary reason you invented is wrong. This is incredibly annoying. Giving a reason that I shop somewhere does not mean I REFUSE to shop elsewhere.

And, of course, it doesn't help that your reason, than B&N is a 'bigger big box retailer', is just flat out silly. As you just agreed, Amazon is actually much bigger, so if I actually had some sort of moral objection to large stores, by any logic I should be shopping at B&N anyway. (Actually Books-A-Million would be the best choice, I think.)

But, in actual fact, I have no problem with Amazon at all, as I've stated repeated, as I stated in my original post, which was me agreeing that Amazon was a better place to shop than Walmart. Although I don't care about how big a store is, I refuse to patronize Walmart for entirely different reasons.

I just prefer to patronize brick and morter stores, and, when I can't make it to them or need something they don't have in stock, their online version. This is because brick and morter stores are in serious danger of dying off in my area, and I'll gladly pay an extra 10% if it continues to mean such stores will continue to exist.

Plus, I do have a moral objection to the way online stores manage to have lower prices because they just blithely have customers defraud states out of sales tax. That isn't really Amazon's fault, but there is a false savings there predicated on people not manually paying sales tax like they are supposed to.

In your original post I replied to you say nothing what so ever about there being no locally owned bookstores. It wasn't until I asked why you weren't buying from them until you said there were none. Now what's the possibility you would have said that if I had not asked?

Yeah, and if this was my original reply to you saying 'You should stop at local stores', I would probably make a joke about how there aren't any local new book stores, and proceed to list the total lack of them.

Oh, like I did.

You then proceeded to assert I was 'refusing' to buy from Amazon and that decision was based on some sort of wrongness or something. And then talk about how I was shopping at 'bigger box retailers' while you choose to shop elsewhere, totally ignoring the fact I wasn't 'choosing' to shop at B&N vs. smaller stores.

Re: Products

[hesaigo999ca]

Extreme case, bud, but most people live main land,
and most would be able to do what I do.

I guess you are 1 of the unlucky few

Troll

[falconwolf]

Troll

Falcon