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Apple Asks Judge To Shutter Psystar's Clone Unit
CWmike writes "Apple wants a federal judge to shut down Psystar's Mac clone operation and order the company to pay more than $2.1 million in damages, according to court documents. The move was the first by Apple since US District Court Judge William Alsup ruled that Psystar violated Apple's copyright and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act when it installed Mac OS X on clones it sold. Alsup's Nov. 13 order, which granted Apple's motion for summary judgment and quashed Psystar's similar request, was a crushing blow to the Florida company's legal campaign. In a motion filed Monday, Apple asked Alsup to grant a permanent injunction that would force Psystar to stop selling any computer bundled with Mac OS X; using, selling or even owning software that lets it crack Apple's OS encryption key to trick Mac OS X to run on non-Apple hardware; and 'inducing, aiding or inducing others in infringing Apple's copyright.'"
Groklaw has summarized Apple's request as well, and noted that Apple has also filed a motion to dismiss Psystar's litigation in Florida (or transfer it to California, where the above injunction was filed).
Cue all the replies from people who think they should have the right to install software from a company onto any piece of hardware they want.
Apple sells systems. In the old days, nobody would even think about separating the software and hardware of an Atari, Apple, Amiga or Commodore computer.
The more you guys push to "free" Mac OS X, the more you guys risk of seeing the opposite laws being written, giving HP, Dell, Acer and others the ability to sign exclusive contracts with Microsoft. No more unlocked computers, no more OSS. Be very, very careful what you guys wish for.
n/t
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
Despite their high cost relative to other vendors, I was thinking about buying a Mac. I used NeXTSTEP back in the day, and have heard good things about Mac OS X, so I thought it'd be worth it.
But I can't, in good conscious, know that I'd be financially supporting this sort of behavior if I were to buy Apple products.
So I'm buying from a local computer shop instead, and I'm going to run Linux.
Yeah, Apple is Apple and I don't have to like the way they do things. I will however support them if someone is encroaching on the way they want to run their business. Cracking an Apple OS to run on a machine that Apple doesn't want to goes against what Apple wants to do with their OS. Yes, I know, they're still making money on an OS copy sold, so they shouldn't bitch, but if they want to thats their business.
Apple wants everything to stay within their box, and they want to have complete and utter control over that box. As long as Apple isn't trying to control whats outside the box - I don't care, but as I see it, OS X is part of their box. In the long run, their strictly closed box might be their downfall. No skin off my back.
I never do never will
but I do point out when a company continuously acts like a fool. The bigger fools of course are the users who overpay and support it because they like having a more closed system as long as the interface is shinier.
I wouldn't call them fools if their business strategy makes them alot money.
I don't like the way they do things either, but all in all, they picked a route - stuck to it - and have generally been flawless in its execution.
As you said, the fools are the ones buying the product, but if its what they want, who am I to argue?
I can't do whatever I want with a piece of software I legally own?
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
This isn't a case where Psystar was making boxes, buying retail copies of MacOS, installing those on the boxes and selling box and MacOS together. That's how Psystar portrayed it, but it turns out that what they were actually doing was cloning all the machines from a master copy of the OS, then including a (still-unopened) copy of MacOS with the box. If you want to use 17 USC 117 (running programs) and 17 USC 109 (First Sale), you have to actually observe the forms. It's not enough to claim that the result is the same as if you'd observed the forms. Thus the case was a slam-dunk for Apple.
Please explain to me why I am a fool for buying the system that best enables me to do my work? I have, at various times, primarily used Windows, Linux and OSX and, currently, OSX is the system that works best for me. Considering the price differences amount to a couple of hours pay yet the productivity gains amount to more than that every month, wouldn't I be a fool *not* to use it?
It's all fun and games until a 200' robot dinosaur shows up and trashes Neo-Tokyo... Again
Since you didn't post to my Apple bashing anonymously, I will explain myself...
My impression and limited experience of Mac users has been folks who genuinely think Apple is innovative. I believe they are not. They take existing technology and perhaps make it more mature by adding a good interface to it. I give them credit for making things like mp3 players more mainstream but they did it by trying to pushing their own format. In the end they are bad for the industry and I am glad their strategy of keeping everything closed failed the last time around they were a heavy player.
Very simply, if "Apple" in the article was replaced with the less word hip "Sony" all the Apple fans would not be happy.
In the end they are bad for the industry
Well now I wouldn't say THAT. I think the more and more Apple pushes that everything must be what they say, the more and more people want to go against that. Which will, of course, lead to cases like THIS, where they try to crack the OS.
And When Apple Cracks down on those people - 2 things will happen.
People will end up purchasing a Mac with OS X from an Apple store, OR
People will end up purchasing a computer and putting a different operating system on it. And if wanted OS X to get away from Windows, maybe they'll hear about Ubuntu instead?
I'm not sure why these smaller companies keep trying to take on the big boys, though, when they know they'll get crushed, like a nut.
You've got Real thinking they can legally distribute software to rip DVDs to you hard drive, Psystar thinking they can legally create defacto Macs, Napster thinking they can facilitate file sharing and on and on.... Someone needs to sit down with these companies and explain how this crushing business works.
It is not Apple's products that I have a problem with. For the most part Apple makes extremely good stuff. The problem with Apple is its corporate behaviour.
Just because you are paranoid does not mean that no-one is out to get you.
There is so much other software out there that gives you the freedom do what you want with it, why do you waste your time pirating and violating Apple's copyrights and IP by making derivatives of OSX. They don't want you to do that, and they own the software, you really lack the rights to do this.
Apple is doing NOTHING to stop Dell or HP from loading any flavor of Linux or Windows on their boxes.
Apple sells Macs and iPhones, and OSX by Apple is designated only to run on those machines. If you can get it to run on other boxes, fine (and Apple has yet to threaten or prosecute folks who make or tell you how to make a Hackintosh), but don't tell me that Apple is desiring "complete control" over other manufacturer's boxes because those companies want to sell something they don't have the rights to (OSX).
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
You can call the users fools if you want but a lot are quite simply desperate. A lot of people have had bad experiences with Windows (cue people saying that Windows works for them) and they are desperate to buy something else. And Mac happens to be that something else.
We could have an entire discussion about why exactly people have bad experiences with Windows. But the reasons are irrelevant. A lot of people (fools as you call them) are willing to pay a lot for something that is not Windows.
Haha, you're such a fool.
One is that Apple has done a good job of setting themselves up as the anti-MS underdog. Well, you get lots of geeks who hate MS. Thus if Apple is anti-MS, they like Apple. They never bother to examine if Apple's tactics are any better than MS's. It is a simple case of "I hate MS, these guys hate MS, so I like these guys."
Another is the cult/fanboy mentality Apple works to foster. They have always marketed their stuff as being superior, and implied that you are a superior person because you buy it. They work to create this cult-like status where you are "special" for being one of the chosen few who are an Apple user. That sort of thing leads to a "They can do no wrong," kind of mentality. Fanboys very much believe that their chosen brand/company is always right, whatever they say or do is correct. As such it doesn't matter how bad the action is, they defend it.
Along those lines is the worry that if another company replicates what Apple is doing, then they'll no longer be special. Despite their talk about OS-X being superior, the fanboys don't want everyone to have it because then they aren't special anymore, they are just normal.
That is really what it comes down to. Apple has a large fan base who is convinced they are the noble underdog, fighting the good fight. They don't examine their behavior objectively.
Two words - Logic Studio
(Don't mention Ardour either, because as good as it is, it's nowhere near Logic)
Listen to my latest album here
I have bought an (unlocked) iPhone and a 17" Macbook Pro. A few iPods are also on my conscience I must admit. The iPhone had to be unlocked. The Macbook Pro barely runs XP, after alot of fiddling with unofficial Bootcamp versions and whatnot. Why Apple can't seem to make regular updates for such software is beyond me. Maybe I have to buy the latest OS version, along with all the software again, to get updated? Oh yeah, I forgot, I probably have to buy a new computer from them as well then..
If OS X didn't try to screw you on purchasing every software you need, and was faster, it would get used, but I don't like the OS anymore. It's not UNIX either, but a bastard from the netherworlds posing as something great ;-)
Although the hardware is great and software pretty decent, I am sick and tired of the restrictions set by Apple in both software and legality. For years they have been screwing over their customers, even their most hardcore fans setting up fansites etc. Everybody seems to be getting visits from Apple's legal team.
I hereby declare I will never ever buy anything from Apple again, for me, or even encourage anybody to buy something from them. In the end I will save money, and I will discourage companies like Apple playing the laws like they do. Oh, yeah, Apple's stocks will be discriminated against also.. They will not get my money again.
In short: fsck / chkdsk Apple! :-)
(If more people want to take similar pledges, that'll be cool)
I just think this will make the world a tad better. Thank you!
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
That's an awfully big generalisation to make about people who buy Apple products.
Am I to infer that you run some flavour of Linux because you are just too cheap to spend money on software and hardware that works for you?
"but they did it by trying to pushing their own format" - MPEG-4 is *not* Apple's format.
What is the difference though? Lots of manufacturers like Dell use master copies to clone their PCs.
What you're suggesting is insane. The only difference is having to install everything manually on every computer, or just cloning the same bits and bytes. What's the difference as long as Apple got the same amount of money?
The law should not be stupid, but be interpreted according to common sense. If this is how it is, either this broken legal system needs further fixes, or we just need to stay away from proprietary software altogether - too much risk and arbitrary decisions in the hands of the wrong people..
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
...software.
Imagine you made a device and spent the time and energy to write some really nice software for it and started happily selling your device. The somebody comes along and starts putting your software on their own cheaper hardware and starts selling that. In this case, they're using your own software as a tool to compete against you.
I don't see how would be wrong for you to want to stop that someone from using your software.
A lot of the discussion here seems to be about whether it's ok to use Apple's software on your own PC. I don't think that's totally unethical. What you do as an individual with your own computer is your business. However, starting a company and attempting to compete against them in the computer hardware market is a completely different thing. Pystar is clearly using the fact that you can buy one of their machines with OSX installed as their "unique selling proposition". Discussion about how Pystar is getting OSX onto the machine seems moot.
this post is now diamonds!
Out of interest where does, Microsoft Windows, Dos, Ubuntu, Photoshop, Autocad, Proteus, MS Office, Skype, All Games and just about any software I can think of come into this picture?
Go read the EULAs that come with all of those products, for a long list of things that you cannot do with "your" copy. Such as run the cheaper versions of Windows on any sort of virtual machine, move the OEM windows bundled with your PC onto another machine, use your educational-licence copy of Photoshop for commercial work...
The details are different, but the principle is the same: you don't own the copy you bought.
Every single other company works that way.
In your dreams. Well, maybe Ubuntu since the GPL only really kicks in if you want to modify or redistribute.
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
Apple is disappointing me more and more. I've been a Mac user for more than 15 years, but this month I'll be switching to an ordinary PC with Ubuntu on it. The new machine is already ordered. It is as powerful as a MacPro and costs half of it. (One thing that annoys me is that I need to keep my old Mac to be able to compile software for OS X, but perhaps the Hackintosh solution will help me get rid of this piece of junk.) The main reasons:
Goodbye Apple!
Hey, I got a $6000 Mac Pro to run Windows 7 so that I can run the Software (Visual Studio) I want to on the hardware (2 Quad Cores) I want to. I do it using Bootcamp, with full legit copies of the Operating Systems.
And I'll be honest, I don't think all Mac users are fools*. As much as I know about the Music and Video industry, which is very little, I understand that Macs are quite popular in that regard. I personally don't use that software so I wouldn't know how well it performs. I'm sure for those people who do that kind of stuff a Mac shines in every aspect and is worth every penny.
The fools I'm referring to are the people who got an iPod because they thought it was the only thing of its kind. Or the ones who bought a Macbook Air and keep it at home to surf the web. Or the kind who purchased a Mac to say they have a Mac. There alot of people like that out there. When there are far cheaper options to fit their needs, and I mean FAR cheaper. There are 8 Gig MP3 players going for 60 dollars, where an 8 Gig iPod Nano goes for over 100.
But - if White coloured headphones are crucial, thats the consumers choice to make.
*I'm probably the biggest fool of them all, for buying a Mac Pro when I PROBABLY could have built a comparable rig myself for half the price. Oh well.
PS - As for Linux, I only run that stuff on my Original Xbox, PS3, and a home-server. It's rarely used as much as a "Linux User" uses Linux.
So, Windows, Oracle, Sun, IBM, Intel, Micron, the entirety of China have OK corporate behavior? So you're posting on a 1982 Morrow Micro Decision? Or something you built in your basement?
Get over it.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Personally I think we need new laws that separate the purchase of hardware and software.
So people know what they are buying, because in sales whether it be Microsoft Windows or a Netgear router you are buying software as well as the hardware.
Form my posts on /. any one can see I am a fan of Mac’s so running OS X without the hardware defeats the purpose of the platform for me.
But I can see it form the other side. What if I wanted to buy Mac hardware but want to run Linux or Windows, why should I have to pay for the development and sale price of OS X if I am not going to use it. We use the same argument against OEM’s with MS Windows.
If you switch the situation and just want the software, I can see that point as well. But I would not hold Apple responsible to support me in any way.
Who is funding Psystar?
I don’t think it’s Microsoft as that would be a dumb move ether way it goes.
I think it is one of the OEM’s myself, as they have noting to lose if this goes Apple’s way and hole lot to gain if it doesn’t.
Apple needs to stop this now before the EULA is really tested, it might go their way this time. But it will not stop, people and companies want OS X and if any thing about technology has been proven to us, is that they will find a way to run.
I think Apple should license OS X now while they have the power to put in place some restriction. They could make the license ridiculous priced and restrictive, The OEM’s would still lap it up for the chance to get rid of Windows. As for Linux the OEM’s have dabbled it this space. But they still have the 1980’s mentality of they would rather license the software than level the playing field with their competitors.
A company that licenses OS X would not be able to use Apple trademarks. But the OEM’s could call it Dell OS or something like that and it would be “OS X compatible”. They could make a range of premium computing to stay in the price range of Mac’s.
As to argument that it will kill Apple it could do, but they are in different places now and the market has changed a hole lot since then.
Fair enough, but it was still something of a generalisation.
Incidentally, the white headphones are terrible.
This would be the same as telling me I can't put a Chevy LS6 motor in my 34 Ford Coupe. The motor by itself does nothing but put it in a car and its the heart of it. Same thing here. I'm not going to sell the car as a chevy. Whats the problem? Apple need to get a clue, as well as the rest of this $#%#'d up industry. This is the only time I can remember when it was an honor, or privilege, to be able to buy or use products from certain vendors. Apple, M$oft, Verizon, ATT, Direct TV, all come to mind. If you don't use their products EXACTLY how they say, shame on you! I guess I should start worrying about Levi as I cut up an old pair of jeans and use the rags in the garage.
"Computers are a lot like Air Conditioners" "They both work great until you start opening Windows"
Why is this so different from format shifting? Music industry makes a CD and says you can't play this on an iPod...shouldn't the music company have a right to say what boxes you can use to play your music? What if Microsoft says you can only install Windows on approved manufacturers (say, Fujitsu and Toshiba)? What if Microsoft says you can only run Internet Explorer on Windows? Anti-trust?
I don't see this as being all that different.
I think he is talking about the "FairPlay" iTunes DRM encryption ensuring you could only playback the music files using Apple hardware products.
According to the latest reliability charts, Apple hardware is the expensive and unreliable choice. The premise that Apple sells you "quality" hardware is fast losing traction.
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
.. evil. This is nothing new. They've had the same predatory behavior for well over 2 decades now.
It's hard for a lot of us to accept, because nearly everyone here owns an apple product they genuinely enjoy (I own several myself), but the truth is Apple is evil.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
You must have one HELL of a job if the price difference between a PC and a comparable Mac is only a couple of hours pay.
This perfectly illustrates the reason I REFUSE to buy an Apple computer. I will not be forced to buy a computer just for an OS. I build my own computers, and I refuse to give any money to a company that tries to dictate what I can and can't do with my machine. Why on earth should I spend $1600 on a decent iMac, when I can build an equivalent system for $800-900!?!
I honestly don't care what the law says. I don't believe the law is right. I can believe that Psystar is violating the law, I just don't care.
They bought copies of OS X. I don't give a damn about a EULA that should not be enforceable (even if it *IS* enforceable), because I think it's wrong of Apple to be able to control what people do that way. They paid for the software, they shouldn't be able to play licensing trickery that, even though you paid for it, you can only use it in certain Apple-approved ways.
Frankly, in some ways I'm glad that Microsoft crushed Apple. Although Apple makes superior products, they're even worse control freaks than Microsoft about what you may and may not do with their software and I hate that about them, even if their products are great.
There is a simple solution to this whole Apple/Psystar/M$/Linux mess, embrace communism on a worldwide scale under a one world government.
Incidentally, the white headphones are terrible.
I thought the white headphones were okay for earbuds. Not a pad on my large padded headphones I have at home, but passable.
I actually dislike the white headphones because of their appearance. Firstly because it makes me look like a wannabe-fashionable tosser buying Apple to look cool. (*) Secondly, because I'm more worried about it making me a target for a thief/mugger on dark winter evenings.
I have a pair of really cheap black ones that don't seem to give as much sound output with my EU-volume-limited iPod at max stength- a problem with outside noise. So I'm still using the white ones... though I'll probably buy another pair, and when I do, they won't be white.
(*) I say "wannabe" because IMHO they could have the opposite effect. Since I don't normally dress or look that sharp, simply having an iPod isn't going to make me a fashion god. I don't think that, and I doubt most people do- but wearing the white headphones they might think that *I'm* under that impression... which would make me a wannabe loser. Personally, I dislike the damn white headphones because I don't like Apple's image- the electronics equivalent of Gap ten years ago- and the damn things are so ubiquitous (every man and his dog has an iPod) that they aren't that cool anyway- again, Gap ten years ago.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Back in the PPC days, you couldn't install OS X on anything else than a MAC (excluding licensed UMAX and MOTOROLA machines). The day Steve went X86, you just knew installing OS X on a PC would be possible (same hardware)
:)
Heck, I'm typing this on 10.5.8 running on an AMD Athlon X2
If you buy a standard PC with similar hardware, it's quite easy to run OS X on it.
I've got better things to do tonight than die.
Applies to about every other company. almost any consumer device today is cheap, of a doubtful quality and disposable.
My dad's VCR is beginning to show its age (it's 22 years old), but that thing is built like a brick. Yes it's a front-load with HI-FI and everything, but it was expensive. Today, you would be lucky to find one that lasts more than a couple years.
A more recent example, Printers. My first inkjet was a Deskjet 500C. That thing was a TANK. virtually undestructible. Today, it's less expensive to buy a new one then change cartridges.
Laptops? I've recently found an old Toshiba T1800 (386 monochrome), and the way its built, I could use it as a traction-aid and it probably would still work. Newer laptops will break if looked at too often.
Everything is disposable now. Lower quality, made in CHINA cheap stuff.
I've got better things to do tonight than die.
but I do point out when a company continuously acts like a fool. The bigger fools of course are the users who overpay and support it because they like having a more closed system as long as the interface is shinier.
I notice you don't call Psystar fools for selling overpriced PCs and Software that is nothing but slightly changed Open Source for quite some money (and of course don't make available source code).
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
My impression and limited experience of Mac users has been folks who genuinely think Apple is innovative. I believe they are not. They take existing technology and perhaps make it more mature by adding a good interface to it. I give them credit for making things like mp3 players more mainstream but they did it by trying to pushing their own format.
Oh? And what would that format be? MP3? Later AAC? Or did the introduction of the iTunes (Music) Store with DRM make the iPod "more mainstream"? Are you telling us they should have used the "open" WMA with DRM on the iPods?
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
I think he is talking about the "FairPlay" iTunes DRM encryption ensuring you could only playback the music files using Apple hardware products.
Let's assume that you weren't implying that PCs running Windows are "Apple hardware products". So what, if you can only play songs with FairPlay on iPods - Apple never promised anything else. But before the iTMS, you could only buy music online from site that sold obscure indy music, from Russian sites of dubious legality, and about a dozen stores with a rather small catalogue selling songs in WMA with a much worse DRM than FairPlay that most MP3 players couldn't play.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
And again you don't call the companies a fool who couldn't be bothered with trying to sell their wares to anyone but some computer geeks. Instead it's the people who didn't dig through the last pages of Computer Shopper to find an add advertising something that could play "MP3s" (whatever that is).
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Interesting choice of example, since Logic is Mac-only for the sole reason that Apple bought eMagic. Prior to that Logic was also available for Windows. The windows Logic users were left high and dry with no further updates or support whatsoever. Think about it - Logic for Windows was a $399 piece of software. It was also rather unorthodox, leaving users to learn entirely new audio software. Very few were of a mind to buy a Mac I assure you.
I find it ironic that a Mac user would be proud of Apple for some of its most anti-competitive behaviour, especially in this thread of all places. Apple quashing Psystar is completely legal and IMO justified, but it's nothing to be proud of.
War as we knew it was obsolete
Nothing could beat complete denial
- Emily Haines
Apple needs to have a real desktop and not court to to sport psystar.
If they had a real desktop at $800-$1500 then psystar would be dead with out apple needing to go to court to do it.
However, you have to pay much more than the workflow gains to get the matching iPod, monotone wardrobe, VW Beetle, and remodel your home in minimalist fashion with Ikea furnishings.
In the end, anarchy never pays. Your denial shall soon consume you, if it hasn't already.
War as we knew it was obsolete
Nothing could beat complete denial
- Emily Haines
Of course that isn't even true nowadays, most of iTunes music is DRM free.
*claps heartily*
Well said!
BTW, the '34 Ford coupe sounds like an awesome project, if it is more than 'just a car analogy' for this discussion. :-)
Hot-rodders are hackers too!
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
AMG is a prime example, they sold modified Mercedes and not only did they not get the pants sued off them but Daimler actually wound up buying them.
What part of this is a troll? The part where he says that Apple makes great products, or the part where he says that Apple is slimy? Both parts are true. Where are the meta mods when we need them?
Just because you are paranoid does not mean that no-one is out to get you.
[Citation Needed]
Maybe in the days of the 1G iPod, but since Creative has handed Apple the MP3 market for anything but stuff less than 4GB trinkets, essentially the iPod and the Zune are the only games in town for serious music libraries above 50 gigs. (Oh, don't bother mentioning the Archos line. If I wanted a music player the size of a netbook, I'd have bought a netbook and a high capacity SDHC card.)
My problem is when these fools try and convince me they are not fools or worse yet try and convince non foolish people to follow their foolishness.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
I'm not talking about copying and distributing, I'm talking about doing what you want with something for your personal use.
No, you're missing the point, Apple has never gone after anyone for making a hackintoch for their own use. Apple has only gone after those who want to distribute hackintoches. And that is what corresponds to you copying "Bob the pop singers' latest CD".
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I went back to college in 2002-2006 (incidentally buying my first Mac in 2002 after 7 years of exclusive desktop Linux use, and I hate that I have to even throw in this disclaimer) and over that period for the first time noticed Macs being considered 'cool.'
Yet you give your trendy straw men (and women) too little credit. Just because they're not geeks and don't know much about computers, even if they bought a Mac because all of their friends said it was the cool thing to do, they can damn well tell you a lot of things they don't like about Windows. Ask them. I've heard it. These are the very technophobes who let their systems get overrun with spyware and adware, who got viruses while everyone on Slashdot bragged about the number of years they spent in their mom's basement *not* getting viruses (*cough*) while using XP sans AV software.
So if they're using a Mac, and it works for them, doesn't it mean their choice was justified?
I hate to think of what you think of all of the engineers using Macs.
My problem is when these fools try and convince me they are not fools or worse yet try and convince non foolish people to follow their foolishness.
My problem is when fools try to convince me I'm foolish! Can't they see what fools they are?
Based on Sony's rootkit incidents, I most certainly would respond differently if Sony was involved.
The Apple stuff meets my needs, YMMV. <shrug> If it doesn't work there are a lot of other vendors out there.
My impression and limited experience of people who stereotype 'Mac users' is that they are fat smelly nerds who spend all day sitting in their own filth. Girls won't go near them. Their teeth look like old gravestones, sticking out this-way and that, covered in moss and slime. Their breath reeks of a charnel house.
See, two can play at that game.
Frankly, I'm surprised that Apple doesn't make all copies of OS X upgrade licences, considering you need an existing Mac (which comes with OS X) to install it on. Then it would be flat-out illegal to make a hackintosh, even for your own use.
Oh, and your Sony reference is stupid. If Sony produced an OS update for the PS3 that sold for $30, and someone made and sold a PS3 clone that ran said update, Sony would have them boiled in oil, and rightly so! As much as I dislike some of Sony's past behaviour, I for one would like to be admitted to said perp-frying, so that I could savour the smell of crispy burning stupidity.
If you bought a Mac Pro primarily to run Windows, you missed the point. The Apple solution only makes sense if your primary OS is OS X, otherwise you are absolutely correct that you can buy cheaper hardware for Windows.
That's not to say the Apple hardware is poor quality, it's just that the combination of OS X + the hardware is what you're paying for.
They sold you a licence to use it.
If Apple relied on that, selling a license to OS X and not OS X itself, Apple would be in trouble. At least one federal judge has ruled that when a person buys software they are not buying a license. A federal judge has already ruled against Autodesk when Autodesk tried to stop resellers from selling Autodesk software such as AutoCAD on eBay. Autodesk claimed they sold a license not the software but the judge said otherwise.
However Apple does not rely on that. Apple relies in part on copyright law. Pystar makes at least two unauthorized copies of OS X. It also modifies OS X. Both break copyright laws.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
So you're saying that Lambourghini needs to have a 30K version because you can't afford their current models? That's what you're basing this on, the price of the item and your willingness to pay it? The logic, it does not work.
Apple isn't a monopoly and they have a (relatively) tiny market share. They can charge whatever they want, albeit charging whatever the market will bear works best in the long run. The market will bear their prices... as proven by Apple's profitability. They don't want/need an $800 "real" (your words, not mine) desktop. You either pay their prices or you don't. They have many others lined up behind you who won't think twice about their prices. If you can't justify it, no sweat, use something else. It's not like you need to feel like less of a man because their product wasn't right for you.
Pystar also modified as well as mass copied OS X. When asked Pystar couldn't even provide receipts proving they paid for OS X.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
$2500 for a gt 120 and 3gb or ram with 640GB hdd? The older mac pro went for $2000 that was a little but of a ripoff but add the $500 to get the power of a $1200-$1500 desktop with less ram and much weaker video card? with a smaller HDD?
and $599.00 for 2GB with on board video and only 160GB HDD you must be blind to see the gap. Why not have a $1000 bigger mini with a video card with 256 of it's own ram, full size hdd and desktop core i5 / core 2 cpu? a little over priced but not super like the mac pro.
where is the mate imac??????? and people don't want a mate over lay THEY WANT TO USE THERE OWN DISPLAY.
And how long do you think OS X will be superior if anyone could install it on plain vanilla hardware? People complain about how MS Windows is unstable and doesn't work well with some hardware. By controlling their own hardware, yes Apple is a hardware as well as software company, they are able to make they work well together.
Another thing many people overlook is that Apple does not compeat directly against Microsoft, and MS has shown what it will do against competitors. MS once threatened Apple with canceling MS Office for Macs, and as much as many people know it is not true many people believe they need MS Office.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I don't like some of what Apple does. Nah, let me rephrase that, I wish Apple would do some things Steve Jobs refuses to let the company do. Such as make and sell a mid-range expandable Mac.
I've been a Mac user for more than 15 years, but this month I'll be switching to an ordinary PC with Ubuntu on it.
After using Windows PCs almost exclusively for more than 10 years I switched. I first got a desktop, er Tower, PC with Linux preinstalled. When I get around to it I'll rebuild it into a server. And when I got a new laptop I got a MacBook Pro. Right now it's running Leopard however when I'm ready I'll install Snow Leopard, the DVD is in arms reach, as well as Ubuntu. I'm not sure if I'll install Jaunty or Karmic though. I'm still researching so I can lay out an upgrade plan. Once I have the plan I'll dualboot Snow Leopard and Ubuntu.
You cannot upgrade the graphics card on iMacs.
Can you upgrade the graphics card in other all-in-ones? Looking at Dell's XPS One I don't see where its graphics is upgradeable either. Their Studio One 19 isn't either. I bet if I looked more I'll come up with more all-in-ones without upgradeable graphics.
Apple only sells new iMacs with old and already outdated graphics cards
iMacs come with different cards. The 21.5" model has the NVIDIA GeForce 9400M and the GeForce 9 Series came out in 2008. The technical summary says the 9400 GT came out in August 2008, that makes it all of 15 months old. The 27" iMac comes with a card from 2008 as well.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
What if I wanted to buy Mac hardware but want to run Linux or Windows, why should I have to pay for the development and sale price of OS X if I am not going to use it. We use the same argument against OEM's with MS Windows.
If you switch the situation and just want the software, I can see that point as well. But I would not hold Apple responsible to support me in any way.
Apple sells hardware and software, do you want laws barring the sell of both? Apple hardware sells help fund the development of OS X.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Apple tried Mac clones and lost money.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
At least one federal judge disagrees with you.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
The windows Logic users were left high and dry with no further updates or support whatsoever.
Just as Adobe left Mac users high and dry. Try to get 64 bit Photoshop CS for OS X. Oops, it's only available for Windows even though Leopard which was released more than 2 years ago is capable of running 64 bit apps. CS4 was released a year after Leopard.
Think about it - Logic for Windows was a $399 piece of software.
And Photoshop alone cost almost twice that.
I find it ironic that a Mac user would be proud of Apple for some of its most anti-competitive behaviour
What anti-competitive behavior is that? All Apple does is try to stop people from installing OS X on non-Apple hardware. Apple doesn't prevent people from installing Windows or Linux on PCs. Apple even allows people to install both on Macs. Where is this anti-competitive behavior?
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
My problem is when these fools try and convince me they are not fools or worse yet try and convince non foolish people to follow their foolishness.
And of course you or those who think like you get to define who and what fools are?
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
According to the latest reliability charts, Apple hardware is the expensive and unreliable choice.
Citation needed!
Let's see what Google returns. Apple's laptops rate 'Better than Average' in reliability study. Macs not all that for reliability. That article puts Dells in the middle with laptop reliability with Macs above them. "For the first time, Apple Inc. dropped out of the top spot in the computer-reliability ranking of Rescuecom Corp., a Syracuse, N.Y.-based chain of service shops, and ended in third place behind a pair of Asian computer makers that specialize in laptops."
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Where were you for CueCat? They could have done with you then.
Or Lexmark's printer ink cartridges?
Or the garage door remote companies?
How about Car manufacturers with this government raping of their engine management information on the cards?
All of those had had their method of running their business (lock customers in and charge them out the wazoo) but you were silent. You may even have cheered on the breaking of their business methods.
But when Apple does it...
And this was a clean room implementation too. They worked out what make the OS install and used it in their bios. They didn't hack the Apple Bios any differently than Compaq did.
Then again, Compaq didn't clone Apple's Bios calls, did they...
This IS someone making a hackintosh for their own use. Pystar are doing so. Then, as allowed under first sale doctrine, selling what they own on.
Or can't you sell your own stuff on any more? Or is it just if it's Apple branded stuff you can't sell it on?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Irrelevant. I was a musician new to DAW recording and knew nothing of the history. Nor did I care. All I cared about was getting the best DAW package at the best price (£170 for Logic Studio 8 in my case). Since it only runs on a Mac, I bought a Mac too. Given that Logic Studio also includes Mainstage, Waveburner, Soundtrack Pro and whole slew of other utilities, even with the premium price of a Mac this meant great value for money.
To be honest I've never understood the mentality of criticising large companies for their actions. ALL large companies would do exactly what Microsoft and Apple do if they felt they could get away with it. Corporations aren't evil, they just are - and that is just the way things are in a capitalist system.
And as for the fanbois of whatever, that's just illogical. Best tool for the job and all that.
Listen to my latest album here
The only reason that is the case is because iTunes would have soon died out (or at the least become very crippled) with competition from the Amazon MP3 store, and anyone else who dared to introduce a DRM free service.
which is totally what she said
Where is this anti-competitive behavior?
Pretty sure he was referring to Apple buying "Logic Studio" and then cutting off the Windows line.
which is totally what she said
Pretty sure he was referring to Apple buying "Logic Studio" and then cutting off the Windows line.
Think about that, Apple discontinues Logic Studio for Windows. But Apple did not prevent people from using other music production software, on Macs or Windows. Sonar, Cubase, and Reaper all run on Windows. The free and open source Audacity runs on *unix, OS X, and Windows.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
and resold it?
I see you didn't answer my question. Could that be because you don't have a good counter argument?
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I think corporations exists for the shareholders not us...no?
Corporations exist for the common or public good. If a corporation does not benefit them it's charter can be revoked.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Yea, because people want to stay in business they're a bunch of dicks.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
There's just something in their craw. I see nice new 27" iMacs I'd love to own, they see a tyranny and a conspiracy against their freedom! Kind of like thinking that health care reform = Dachau.
but by your reasoning Psystar should be able to continue business by installing the copies individually from CDs and then introduce their modifications.
Not even. Psystar doesn't make Apple hardware, only Apple and their contractors make Apple hardware. As for modifications, that breaks copyright.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Miss my point friend.. I want laws that say they have to show the price for the hardware and the software when I buy. So I can clearly see the price I am paying for both sales. And if I want to buy them separately of each other I can. This will stop the bundling of Windows and OS X with hardware.
If I don't want OS X why should I have to pay for it simple as that. I like OS X, but I don't like Windows, It would be small minded of me to say Windows bundling should stop and not too say anything about OS X just because I happen to like the software.
For the me it doesn't matter because I going use OS X the same way it doesn't matter to the boat load of Windows user that it comes bundle with their PC or laptop as they are going to use it. but on the other side when I get a new laptops, I hate have to dodge the windows tax.
It all about the perspective of want you want form your purchase.
Point in case.
Do you see what I have to deal with now.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
if Microsoft was to make a patch for Windows that made Windows run only on official Microsoft licensed hardware so that people who have Apple Macs can't run Windows on it, there would be a massive uproar and Apple users all over the world would bitch because they can't run the operating system they so desperately try to avoid. Yea... they think they hate Windows, until it's time to do real work: that's when you see all Apple owners resort to running Windows on their super expensive Apple computers. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Apples are only good for dicking around and useless for actual work... they say it.
It really doesn't make sense that Apple can legally prevent anyone from running Apple OS on a different hardware than what it was intended for. It would be like saying the music cd's you buy from walmart can only be played in your car's cd player, you are not allowed to play them on your home cd player. That makes no sense. You bought it, you can run it on whatever device can run it.
If I don't want OS X why should I have to pay for it simple as that.
You don't have to pay for OS X, you only pay if you buy a Mac. And haven't you heard Macs are overpriced?
when I get a new laptops, I hate have to dodge the windows tax
What? Do you hate dodging the Windows Tax? You don't have to, just buy a laptop with Windows. Or do you mean you have to buy another laptop so you avoid paying for Window when you buy a laptop? There are a number of laptops with Linux not Windows. For instance Dell sells them.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Very few were of a mind to buy a Mac I assure you.
I challenge this assertion. Some Windows based musicians claim Windows can be used in audio engineering on a professional level.
At Logic's level (You know, real professional studio quality work... Capital Records, Geffen et al), we have voices such as MOTU, Digital Performer and the like. BTW, Digital Performer or Audio Desk is yet to be ported to Windows so while there are *buggy and unreliable* Win32 drivers for MOTU equipment, much of MOTU flag ship software isn't available for Windows.
Most Windows software cited to support Windows role in audio engineering really is... good enough to cut a demo tape. Or, maybe there is one or two software packages that can give it a niche role in a real studio, but not be the computing beef that Macintosh has long traditionally held in this arena.
Inspite of all the craptastic consumer level sound applications like Sound Forge found on Best Buy shelves, when it comes to real audio work, the best analogy would be the gaming market in the late 90s. Linux had more games in the mid to late 90s than Windows ever had in regards to professional audio; not just harddisk recording software but including hardware support.
So, when I hear you say that very few were of a mind to buy a Mac, totally emersed within a culture and profession strongly dominated by Apple... well... such Windows users are indeed "very few" to begin with. But hardly ignorant of their handicap. And speaking of Linux... Linux has some decent software to cut a demo tape. Leaving me feeling rather competitive from a Linux point of view to the audio productivity capable with a Linux box to a Windows box. But, when I bought my MOTU equipment for my guitar work, though I love Linux, I knew that world is dominated by Apple and so I bought a Mac just to run my home studio.