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Modded Xbox Bans Prompt EFF Warning About Terms of Service
Last month we discussed news that Microsoft had banned hundreds of thousands of Xbox users for using modified consoles. The Electronic Frontier Foundation has now pointed to this round of bans as a prime example of the power given to providers of online services through 'Terms of Service' and other usage agreements.
"No matter how much we rely on them to get on with our everyday lives, access to online services — like email, social networking sites, and (wait for it) online gaming — can never be guaranteed. ... he who writes the TOS makes the rules, and when it comes to enforcing them, the service provider often behaves as though it is also the judge, jury and executioner. ... While the mass ban provides a useful illustration of their danger, these terms can be found in nearly all TOS agreements for all kinds of services. There have been virtually no legal challenges to these kinds of arbitrary termination clauses, but we imagine this will be a growth area for lawyers."
Any place someone feels (correctly or incorrectly) they've been treated wrongly, it is a place for lawyers to grow and make money.
Microsoft's network, Microsoft's rules. They're 100% in the right for banning modded consoles. Basically you can play your pirated games or you can play on Live, but not both with the same console. Now what angers me is how they'll send out replacement consoles for warranty repairs that are already banned from Live, and tell the recipient that they must have a modded console and refuse them any recourse. What also angers me is how it would be easily within the law to ban for almost ANY reason, leaving the user with little to no recourse.
I applaud Microsoft's banning of modded consoles, but condemn Terms of Service in general because they're 99.999% in the favor of the writer. I mean, the company.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
Rights? What "rights" do you have here aside from choosing whether or not to give a company money? Your basic human rights aren't being violated here, and I don't see anything illegal happening with respect to a company's right to set terms of service for the use of their network.
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
Okay, seriously. They own and operate their network. Let's reverse this: what gives you the right to tell them how to operate it?
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
I think Microsoft is being aggressive in it's strategy. Warnings, even many warnings and second chances, third chances, etc should be utilized before doing something irreversible like this (also an appeals process would be in order). It certainly is their right to ban people from their network based on a written policy but psychologically speaking they are angering a great many customers. By taking such extreme action, they are encouraging better hacks and workarounds in the future. Plenty of computer software is much more graceful and works well on a positive reinforcement encouragement system. Even Microsoft Windows and Office handle these types of situations much better. There will always be piracy but it should be discouraged and not challenged for the truly best end results. A lot less music is pirated now simply by offering it for sale in MP3 form and encouraging people to do the right thing.
and avoid vendor lock-in problems like this and crap quality (red ring of death)
Sure. Unfortunately I have no choice but to accept the ToS if I want to play Fable 2 as last I heard there was no PC version in the works :(
MS believes that if you mod your console it is sole purpose for playing pirated games even if you only use backup legit games, they have no way to tell the difference if you own the game legit or pirated it, or if you even download games at all. Its a case of Collateral Damage. Since you remote the copy protection coding outta the console they actually have a case against you like mpaa had against programs that removed the protection on dvd's for making backup's
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Terms of service are supposed to be the "teeth" that allow a company to take actions they believe are in the best interest of the network, other customers, and the company in general. That said, companies should do as much as possible to work through issues with customers before taking "final action" on any case. Exceptions would certainly need to be made for extreme cases, but immediate permanent action shouldn't be the rule. That's just awful customer service.
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
I don't mean to sound like I'm defending Microsoft, but...
If you enter into any contract, you have to abide by the rules. There's NOTHING new here. Online service, game service (like Xbox Live), Phone service... even a lawn mowing service has terms to its contract.
Guess what kids? Your actions have consequences. You should have the maturity to own up to those consequences.
Contracts (and contract law) aren't anything remotely new. They've been thought out by many a great thinker for millennia. Calling contract law a "growth market" is about as far from the truth as it gets. Contracts are one of the oldest, most hashed-out, and most concrete aspects of law in any society. The entire point of contract law is to avoid lawsuits, specifically because there is so little wiggle room if both parties agree to the contract.
-- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
I have no problems with what they did; but I question their logic. Those consoles that are banned from Live for being "modded" can still obviously play pirated games. What they *can't* do is go on live and among other things purchase things. So while they will undoubtedly sell some more consoles (Craigslist and eBay are full of banned consoles) and probably some more games - I don't really see this as doing much to stop piracy - I only see it stopping any legit spending from those consoles.
Seems to me that there must've been a better way to handle this; but that's just me.
They have the right to run their service the way they want to. they also have the right to change their terms of service when ever they want to and don't even have to tell you. if you thought modding a console and never would get banned well they you were ignorant and its no excuse to take it out on them for it, just like the law you are still guilty
I guarantee that the vast majority of terms of service publications include a clause that the customer agrees to be bound by future versions of the TOS. It's my opinion that notifying customers each time a substantive change to the TOS is made is the right thing to do, but there's no real requirement for companies to do so (unless applicable law requires such notification).
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
I paid them money?
That doesn't pass for justification. You paid them money in exchange for access to their network according to their terms of service. If you want the right to dictate how they operate their company, you'll need to be a shareholder (minimal influence unless you've got a hell of a lot of shares), on the board of directors, or a C-level employee.
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
Nothing gives me the right to tell you what to do with that gun. If you choose to do something illegal with it the courts will deal with you.
That's a terrible strawman, by the way. It doesn't even make sense as a counter-argument, and almost agrees with my point.
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
They also can't act as Windows Media Center extender, which means it's LOST functionality, compared to a 360 that will never connect to the Internet.
Exactly.
And it's not like you don't have the choice to just connect your XBox 360 to another service provider, right?
Right?
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
Yeah, and they also can't install games to the hard drive, nor move accounts back and forth from a banned system to a non-banned system from what I understand. So yes there is a loss of functionality as well.
It's a completely ridiculous proposition to compare the public telephone network to a gaming network. Are you going to die if you can't use the latter? Surely you can't be serious.
I would
When I installed it, it popped up an EULA that stated that the company reserved the right to modify the agreement from time to time (changes to be posted to their website) and that my continued use of the software 30 days after these changes constitutes my acceptance of said changes.
I should mention, this is a retail boxed version of a game that doesn't require any online service to run.
Then there's Windows 7. Bought the upgrade to put a legit copy on a new system. But apparently, and this was stated nowhere online at the time of purchase (including Microsoft's site, and I checked thoroughly), this upgrade is only properly licensed if I put it on the computer that had the OEM version of XP on it. Impossible, as its motherboard died, and even the OEM XP had no mention on its packaging or on the website that it would only be valid on the first system it was installed on (as indicated by the motherboard in said computer, even if the motherboard needs replacement).
You really are treated worse than a pirate when you pay for your software. You can't even properly lend or swap games with friends anymore, even on consoles like the Xbox 360 because of DLC.
While they're at it, they should get with Consumers' Union and go after the wireless providers, credit card lenders and all those other services where the terms of service are basically "we've got the gold, we make the rules". Onerous contract terms and gullible consumers that think they have to have these services are the root of all evil in our service/consumer based economy (speaking for the US).
We are the 198 proof..
Or, to not purchase an Xbox 360, for the same reasons.
DATABASE WOW WOW
In deference to your request, I shall call you Sally instead.
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
Did I read that correctly? "rely on them to get on with our everyday lives"? I think my life would go on just fine if I never connected to Xbox live again.
Why, no, I haven't meta-moderated lately. Thanks for asking!
People have a right to fair use. By putting these restrictions on Live (although you don't *have* to use it, I know) MS is stepping on my right to make backup copies of games. (Note: I don't own any video game consoles at this point)
There is more to science than physics!
www.iomalfunction.blogspot.com
This is nowhere a new thing. On PCs, Blizzard, SOE, and most MMO companies will instantly and permanently ban accounts if they trip the Warden (on WoW) or whatever hack detection is in use. If you play on Steam, Valve can remove your access to multiplayer services without having to give a justifiable reason other than a potential hack was detected.
Because of the rampant cheating, Valve learned that a 1 year ban did no good. Neither did a 2 or 5 year. The only thing that got people off of their networks with cheats was a delayed and permanent ban of that account. Blizzard also has learned that lesson with b.net. Any cheats will be "rewarded" with an instant and permanent ban.
Oh, good luck trying it in the courts. Look at how completely and utterly victorious Blizzard was over wowglider/mmoglider to see how well they can do in the legal system.
You got two options here: Play by their rules, or don't play in their game. There is no third option. Its just like a private house or store. Play by the owner's rules, face trespass charges if they are violated, or never enter in the first place.
"You really are treated worse than a pirate when you pay for your software. You can't even properly lend or swap games with friends anymore, even on consoles like the Xbox 360 because of DLC."
Yep. This is why I pirate MS products, buy Apple products and download linux for free. Because MS are still the evil empire.
There is more to science than physics!
www.iomalfunction.blogspot.com
I'm a huge fan of fair use and being allowed to make backups of purchased items. Let's be honest here, though; couldn't a backup be made by simply making an exact copy of the hard drive's contents? Modding seems to be the issue here, not backups.
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
True, but can you do that? What kind of filesystem does the 360 use? I have no idea myself.
There is more to science than physics!
www.iomalfunction.blogspot.com
That's the beauty of dd; it creates an exact binary image of the drive. It doesn't matter what filesystem is in use, and you can restore the resulting image to a brand new drive with dd as well.
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
"You can't even properly lend or swap games with friends anymore"
"Yep. This is why I pirate MS products, buy Apple products"
Logic fail.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
I think Microsoft is being aggressive in it's strategy. Warnings, even many warnings and second chances, third chances, etc should be utilized before doing something irreversible like this
The only thing irreversible is that the modded box goes off-line and stays off-line. It cannot be used as a licensed Microsoft "media extender."
Your warranty is voided.
psychologically speaking they are angering a great many customers
Microsoft couldn't care less.
The cheaters are given the boot - to a loud round of applause.
The more attractive and desirable the online experience, the less valuable the pirated game. Windows and Office are headed in the same direction.
Never said I played their games, did I? Besides the point, I don't get treated like a criminal for using their products legally.
There is more to science than physics!
www.iomalfunction.blogspot.com
if you are going to step foot in my house you will not shit on my kitchen floor
if you do, you will be made to leave.
how is this any different?
if you don't like the rules then don't agree to them. if you agree to them and break them then, tough for you.
Warnings are an interesting idea, but I wonder how they would play out in the real life? If people are aware they get 1, 2, 3 "Get out of jail free" cards, they do adjust their behavior accordingly. If you tell folks that mods are not permitted, and then allow them to get away with it, are you just pushing the problem further down the road? They're still going to raise hell when they get banned after a warning. Perhaps warnings just give folks more incentive to experiment with signatures that won't be detected?
Some of the issue comes down to technical feasibility which I can't really speak to. If I detect a mod on a box, give them an ultimatum, and see the mod go away, can I be confident that the box is back within the terms of service?
The most interesting factor in all of this is that I keep seeing this story pop up over and over, and every time the folks pushing the story seem to be misgauging the community reaction. I think the writers think this will spark a real outcry against MS, but most of the response I have seen boils down to "you should have known better."
It was never to stop piracy, it was to sell more consoles! I don't think that the console division and the live division should be so interlaced. Banning live on modded xboxs doesnt stop piracy obviously, but sells more consoles.
I can't believe people are OK with this!
All your 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 are belong to us
They have the right to run their service the way they want to. they also have the right to change their terms of service when ever they want to and don't even have to tell you.
Actually, if ToS were changed, and users were banned under the changed clauses, I think there would be a point here. It may be legal, but personally, I find contracts that can mutate like that abhorring, especially when you pay dearly for the privilege of entering one in the first place (i.e. ToS change, you don't like the new ones, but if you drop out now your Xbox is useless and you've paid for it... and the only information you had when you paid the money was the original ToS).
In this case, however, I don't see how that applies. So far as I know, modding restrictions were always in the ToS, so people who bought Xbox originally knew exactly what they were buying, and what the conditions are (or at least they have no excuse for ignorance).
If you really, really, really care THAT DAMN MUCH about modding your XBox, you'd buy 2 -- one for online play on XBL, the other for souped-up media center purposes. Can't afford a second XBox? Then maybe modding and/or XBL isn't for you.
A modded XBox increases the probability the end user has a cheat enabled to give you an unfair advantage in an online competitive game. I applaud any service that wants to preserve purity in a competitive arena. It's just like every major competitive sport having regulations over the specifications of all equipment used in all games.
"Love heals scars love left." -- Henry Rollins
How so? If a company banned me from a subscription service, the LAST thing I would do is go out and buy new hardware so I can continue paying monthly fees. Anyone that would do otherwise either has way too much disposable income or needs to get their head on straight.
How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
If your Xbox is modded, and as you've been banned from Live then thats probable, then sure - there is nothing stopping you from connecting to another service provider. Whether anyone is providing such a service is another question.
You can't do any of those things on an Xbox that has never been connected to Live - I know, I have one (6 months old, never bothered plugging in the ethernet cable).
I can't believe people are OK with this!
They're not. Probably astroturfers trying to manipulate public opinion. Ignore them, they're lying POS.
---
Astroturfing "marketers" are liars, fraudulently misrepresenting company propaganda as objective third party opinion. Anonymous commercial speech should be illegal.
Um... what was that about upgrade installs? I've certainly used those on non-OEM images. In fact,t he very first thing I do with an OEM image, after booting it to make sure the computer works, is reformat that shit right off.
Mind you, the previous copy of Windows was legit, but it was certainly not OEM and I had no problem using an upgrade copy. Installer checks, sees an old version, then goes ahead and reformats the drive for a clean install.
It's possible that the installer checks to see if your copy is legit, and fails if it isn't. Considering you're getting a discount (upgrade vs. full install) on the basis of having paid for a previous version of the software, this sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
You forgot that most ToS', unlike contracts, can't (reasonably*) even be read until you're no longer able to back out of the deal.
*insert Hitchhikers Guide reference here.
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
No it isn't a question just ask MS if they will let another network work with their systems. Cease and Desist will be the first thing that happens.
My console was banned for being modded. The thing is, it was modded because the DVD drive died and I replaced it... the only way I could do this "legitimately" was to buy a whole new console, since MS claimed it was no longer under warranty. I wasn't about to spend $250 or whatever it was at the time (this was a couple years ago) to buy a whole new console when I could buy a new drive online for less than $60.
So I had a modded console... I played exactly 2 games that entire time, Rock Band and Rock Band 2. The original of Rock Band worked perfectly and when Rock Band 2 came out, I purchased it... well the original had trouble playing in the console, so I used a burned copy, which ironically played fine. During that time, I purchased nearly 100 songs for RB and RB2 and maintained a Live Gold subscription. My gamer profile confirms that I haven't played any other games than RB and RB2 since I replaced the drive.
So my console is banned. I will cancel my Live Gold account ($50+ a year or something) and I will no longer be able to purchase songs for RB2 or future RB games that come out. So by banning me, they've lost a continual revenue stream that has exceeded the purchase price of a console. Sure, they already have my money for the RB2 songs I bought, but they aren't able to get more, even if I wanted to pay them money.
What kind of stupid idea is this? Unilaterally cut off your customers who pay you money regularly and prevent them from being able to pay you any more money. Wow. What a brilliant business move.
These are strictly monopolistic practices: console maker getting a game maker to take part in conspiring against competition from other console makers.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
not if the drive's serial number no longer matches. plus the original xbox (don't know about the 360) used a little used feature of the ide spec involving a HDD password that was encoded into the bios - drive ignores any read/writes until someone transmits the correct code, making it somewhat difficult to dupe the drive
"Success is based on knowing how far to go in going too far"
Buy Apple products? Is that the same Apple that bricked a couple of IPhonys?
"we have dectected you have a modded consoles, if you do not travel back in time to prevent yourself from modding your console, you will be banned."
So whats next? Being anger with PunkB*ster for not letting you cheat?
Modded consoles are used for:
Play pirated games(you don't need a chip to backup anything so sftu)
Cheat on online games
A few other not illegal or "immoral" activities.
So if you want more functionality(last of the above uses) on your XBox why not start a petition or something so M$ knows what you want?(I'm not saying they'll even consider it but at least you tried) Otherwise you're either engaging in illegal activities(the law is the law until its changed) that M$ can't tolerate because its bad for business and they risk themselves by allowing it, or you're an useless looser that likes to ruin everyone else experience on online games just because you can't figure out how to play tic tac toe.
Up until the mid- to late- 70s or early 80s - I can't remember exactly - that's exactly what Ma Bell did. You could not attach ANY device or install ANY wiring that was not approved by and/or not installed by Ma Bell's folks. And they did random impedance checks on your phone line at the main switch to make sure you didn't. The Bell system was, after all, a government-sanctioned monopoly, at least until the Great Break Up. Sorry. Couldn't help feeding the troll.
XBoxLive is Microsoft's private network. Only Microsoft has a right to use it. For everyone else, the use is XBoxLive is a privilege.
Microsoft owns it. Microsoft runs it. Microsoft sets the rules. Microsoft says the service is for unmodified XBox systems and if you have a modified XBox, you can't use the service.
XBoxLive is a service and Microsoft does not have to provide the service to anyone it doesn't want to provide it to as long as it isn't discriminatory under the law.
The EFF needs to shut the fuck up until it dig it's collective head out of it's collective ass.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Or, to not purchase an Xbox 360, for the same reasons.
Then what set-top video game machine do you recommend for people who prefer to play indie games? Even with XNA's limitations, Nintendo and Sony don't offer anything remotely close to XNA.
The Bell system was, after all, a government-sanctioned monopoly
As is the company that makes the Xbox 360: it was found guilty of monopolizing the PC operating system market, and the United States government sanctions it by 1. continuing to enforce Microsoft copyrights and 2. licensing Windows from Microsoft.
at least until the Great Break Up.
Microsoft was scheduled for a breakup until the newly elected Bush administration intervened.
Unfortunately, it will be too much of a financial burden to challenge MS in court unless you have deep pockets, or lawyers working pro bono for you.
If you send in your Xbox 360 console for repair, and you get a Live-banned one back, take Microsoft to small claims court. It's amusing how often a big company will just not show up.
You can backup the drive, but only onto another branded xbox drive (which cost several times as much as a generic sata drive of the same capacity)...
But the games, even if they let you install the game to the hd you usually can't actually play it without having the original media in the drive. If you let kids play on the console, and a lot of kids play games consoles, the risks of damaging the games increases massively.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Basically you can play your pirated games or you can play on Live, but not both with the same console.
So are you saying any homemade game that uses speech synthesis is necessarily pirated? XNA, the "official" way to do homebrew on Xbox 360, lacks any way for a program to generate and play audio in real time.
They braking the law by locking out 3rd party stuff like who wants to pay $149.99 for a 120gb HD? when you can buy your own for way less or why can't you replace the dvd on your own?
You can do the same with cars and they can't say you used a 3rd party lube place / auto shop and then have the dealer lock out your car. It's same thing dealer lube at a very high price vs jiffy lube or some other place at a much less cost. Not only that there is court case out there to force the car manufacturers to give out the full car diagnostic codes. It's your CAR and you should have the right to get it fixed where you want and not have the codes need to be only at a high priced dealer.
I paid them money?
OOH, OOH! Car Analogy time!
So you're telling me that since you pay the tolls on a toll road, you're allowed to take a NASCAR stock car on said road, which may look exactly like a regular car, (I know not really, but close enough for this analogy) but is modded to "improve performance"?
Or since you pay for the SAT/ACT/whatever college test you take/took/etc, you should be allowed to bring a calculator "modded" to allow it to cheat on the test in some way? Hey, you paid for it, right?
Well... They are not really. First, it doesn't effict you "making" the copies. Also it doesn't even effect you playing them. The consoles still fully function. It only effects you using their Live service.
Like it's been said before, if it was your service you could make the rules.
In fact, I have 2 Xboxes. One modded for backups and one for Live.
If you go to a movie theater and you start filming or bring in your own food or break any other rules, you'll be kicked out.
When you are using a service provided by ANYONE, digital or not, you agree to the terms of the service. If you don't like the TOS you shouldn't agree to them.
Anyone with a modded Xbox should NOT have agreed to the TOS. They would then not have access to the service and if they wanted to petition M$ to change their TOS they'd be fully within their rights to. What they can't do is claim that each one of them is so important that M$ must bow to their every whim and allow the customers to run their network.
If you want to mod your xbox, great. But stay the hell off XBL so the REAL players can have an enjoyable fair match. I am so tired of you cheating a**holes and I am so glad to see you get thrown out. So how did that ban hammer feel? I only wish I could be the guy swinging it....what an awesome job to have.
Or, to not purchase an Xbox 360, for the same reasons.
Then what set-top video game machine do you recommend for people who prefer to play indie games? Even with XNA's limitations, Nintendo and Sony don't offer anything remotely close to XNA.
You could, you know, not modify the console, since you can play homebrew without a mod.
I would argue that just because you don't like the gaming offerings out there, it doesn't give the 'right' to get what you want. There are three competitors in the space, you can pick one, more, or none of them depending on your preference. I think this was a clear cut case, I might be singing a different song if they were banning for fleeting explitives or because you didn't buy enough MS points.
If you don't want to play by the common sense rules, you can deal with it. Though I do have sympathy for those who were not aware their console was modified (refurbs or pre-owned).
Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
It seems to me as if everyone is missing the point here.
Yes MS can do whatever they want with their network.
The problem is that they have no burden of proof to do whatever they want.
When you start affecting peoples lives with no due process it starts to become an issue.
XBox live is not a good example but I am sure there are services out there that people rely on for their lively hood and if someone were to commit an act on this network that the operator did not like they could be terminated.
What if this action was not so black and white? What if the banning from the network was unjust? Tough luck because the TOS basically screws you out of any recourse.
The user has to have some rights to protect their investment into the network from unreasonable operators.
Example, using a service within the guidelines of the TOS but cutting into the operators profit margins.
You can be damn sure that the TOS will change the next day and you will be promptly banned because there is a clause in the TOS that they may change at any moment with no warning.
But hey , I for one welcomed our corporate overlords along time ago.
But the upgrade to put a legit copy on a new system. But apparently ... this upgrade is only properly licensed if I put it on the computer that had the OEM version of XP on it.
Well, your first mistake was buying the "upgrade" version and thinking that was the appropriate version to do a fresh install on a new system. What did you think the purpose of the non-upgrade version was?
Even at that, though, Microsoft's upgrade terms are incredibly lenient. The only requirement you have to meet when installing the upgrade version of Windows 7 is that the computer you're on must have a partition on some hard disk in it that has a previous version of Windows on it. So if you plugged your old XP drive into the new computer, Windows 7 would install just fine on the new drive, even if the old drive isn't even bootable.
Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
"It was never to stop piracy, it was to sell more consoles!"
And your proof to this claim is where? My honest opinion (See that? I'm not trying to pass it off as fact!) is that they were looking to improve the game experience for other customers. Sure not every modded box is used for cheating but many are, and those modded ones are open to doing it in the future. So by banning infringing consoles they 1) remove cheaters impacting the service to legit customers and 2) remove potential future threat to their customers.
I never bought a 360, but I did have a regular Xbox with Halo 2 back in the day. My worst experiences on XBL were competing with modded players who hacked the game. Companies aren't out there to screw every individual they can find. They do realize that a customer base grants them money. So when they take action that benefits the majority they're doing themselves a favor.
When you are convinced that no one could possibly disagree with your pet cause and that anyone who claims to disagree is an astroturfer, you've lost the plot.
you can play homebrew without a mod.
Say I want to develop a game that uses speech synthesis instead of having every line by every character voice-acted. XNA doesn't let me do this because XNA provides no way to generate audio at runtime.
Say I want to develop a game with a fantasy setting that includes words written in a made-up language. This page states that Microsoft has banned all languages from Xbox LIVE Indie Games other than those for which the Xbox 360 system menu has been localized.
Mod parent up. He is so right. The online cheaters are losers and obviously feel the need to subsidize their self worth.
I regret that I only have one mod point to give per post.
While I'm reasonably sure you meant the DVDs, you can't back those up without a proper press. Simple DVDRs will NOT cut the mustard without a modded console (the whole point of modding the console, in fact!).
If you meant the hard disk, the answer is equally "no". The X360 uses a custom firmware (copyrighted) on a mildly modified WD 2.5" hard drive. The contents are both obfuscated and lightly encrypted, so you can not meaningfully backup up the disk as a whole, or the contents, without MS sanction and assistance.
The preceding comment is my own, and in no way construes an opinon of the Emperor of Mankind.
Point taken. You can do some homebrew on an XBox, not all.
Regardless, that's the trade-off. If you want to run on the XBox, you need to follow their rules. If you don't like their rules, go somewhere else (PC, for example), but be aware you might not get exactly the combination that you prefer, just because all the companies operating in the space don't offer it (or did and went out of business).
Of course, the big thing here is it was the XBL terms of service that were violated, not the hardware terms. So, if you REALLY want a modded XBox, just don't use it on Live or use any Live-enabled features. Problem solved?
Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
Yes, you're welcome to setup your own VPN with your router and play multiplayer via system link.
Microsoft was never even accused, let alone convicted, of holding a monopoly on console gaming. Monopoly in one market does not translate to monopoly in all markets.
If you want to mod your xbox, great. But stay the hell off XBL so the REAL players can have an enjoyable fair match. I am so tired of you cheating a**holes and I am so glad to see you get thrown out. So how did that ban hammer feel? I only wish I could be the guy swinging it....what an awesome job to have.
+1 for parent, my thoughts exactly! Even just 1 cheater in a game makes the entire game a loss for everyone. I buy these games to compete against other people, not someones auto-aim bot.
My point was that if you use your equipment *legally* they won't treat you like a criminal.
There is more to science than physics!
www.iomalfunction.blogspot.com
Is installing software on my IPhone Illegal?
This is just not true. The useful data on the drive is separate from the firmware, and running dd against it produces an exact binary copy. If your console needed a replacement drive, you could easily dd the backup image back onto it.
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
Touche.
There is more to science than physics!
www.iomalfunction.blogspot.com
I have a wonderful idea. Don't buy their products.
People crave games. movies and other utter trifles and then snivel when the trifle-makers take advantage of their craving. This perpetuates the very conditions they snivel about because they still hand their money to the trifle-maker.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
When you are convinced that no one could possibly disagree with your pet cause and that anyone who claims to disagree is an astroturfer, you've lost the plot.
If you think that astroturfers are not very active in these forums then I've got some prime Florida real estate to sell you. The fact that you pretend they don't exist, ignore my "probably" qualifier and create a straw man is telling.
I have no particular thing here other than making sure that people are aware of the lying POS that astroturfers are. Too many naive people here take them at face value and don't realize just how dishonest, manipulative and active marketers/advertisers are these days.
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DRM is the #1 cause of software failure today.
Blizzard required the person who made wowglider to pay them the money he had made off of their product, after he insulted them in every way he possibly could. They were unjustified how?
You can restore your banned console to its pre-banned state if you are handy with a soldering iron and have an old printer cable. Your console is still banned, but your NAND will be at its prior state so you can transfer saves, install to HDD, and use MCE. Just go to xboxscene.com and read about it.
Welcome to the world of DRM.
This IS what you get. You get to pay money AND be shafted for breaking TOS, even if you had reasonable reason to do so.. Reason doesn't ring with big corporations, only money and more money.
We've been saying this for far too long (10+ years now?), so it's not like you should act surprised or anything.
Some more functions on you XBox has also been crippled. However, there will probaby be some fixes for that in 1-6 months or so..
This is why I never left the PC platform and turned off Windows Update, although like you, haven't been gaming too much the last couple of years..
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
Saying "They're not" to the GP discounts your own "probably" qualifier. You believe no one is sincere in approving of MS' measure.
Often you find uneven service contracts that allow providers to change terms of service, hike up fees, or terminate the contract unilaterally, because you might have acted differently from expected, or can't be milked any further, or are too much trouble, or don't act conform to their norms, or used free speech while not being on your own property.
Some examples:
As far as the ban goes, the Xbox thing might not be the best example for uneven contract law. But by also disabling users' property it certainly is not the reaction of a fair business partner, but of someone who'd like to throw a chair at you. It is like you (probably) stole our city water, so the city will burn down your house. (You should have known, city ordinance says so, and you agreed to it by moving here)
You know, companies could behave differently, treat users with reason, fairness, and react appropriately and still do business. I recently posted to an online forum, that states : "Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)" (my italics) - Isn't that a much fairer way to treat people than to simply ban everyone (and destroy their computer) who mentions goats and how nice they can be as pets?
The partition has an obfuscated copy of the drive's serial number. Data on drive doesn't match drive itself = you can be banned.
The preceding comment is my own, and in no way construes an opinon of the Emperor of Mankind.
Well, that's thoroughly jacked up. Thanks for the info, and I summarily withdraw my earlier point that you can just image the drive for backup purposes.
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
Not only that, it contains a security sector that is written with the serial number of the console it came in, and a hash of the firmware and HAL, and new drives that are added to that particular console get that data also written to them, so long as they are official drives. An unofficial drive won't, because it doesn't contain A) the proper firmware B) the proper hashes (hash mismatch, the easiest way to find a modded console) C) serial mismatch.
Quite easy for them to detect when all of the modded drives have identical inserted serials on them. I don't know what possessed the mod tool makers to do such a thing as use identical identifiers. This security sector also can't be written to or read from by any stock software such as dd, or even by the modkit software out there. The sector is encrypted and signed with MS Authenticode, and not just lightly. Software like dd would choke on reading it and just give error messages saying it's unrecoverable.
We won't even get into the entire mess that is an ex-FAT filesystem.
I am unaware of anyone's right to make a backup copy of a game. Yes game disks break and wear out with use but that does not endow anyone with the right to duplicate the media at will. Lots of products break and wear out with use, beyond basic warranties no one has the right to demand replacements.
I would argue that just because you don't like the gaming offerings out there, it doesn't give the 'right' to get what you want.
I think this is the central point of this argument. I believe we're being placed in a position where different definitions of 'ownership' are being tested on us.
What is needed, IMHO, is a proactive declaration of the rights and expectations that digitally connected citizens and consumers of electronics enjoy. The EULA system we currently use is fundamentally flawed.
Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
When it comes to modding your console there can only be one warning, after you've done it warnings are useless. I for one would despise a service that constantly sent me warning messages telling me to not do what I understand is wrong in the first place. That's the thing the haters are missing. For every person bitching about being banned there are 100 people that are glad they are gone. all this talk of backing up games is a strawman. 99% of consoles are being modded so people can pirate or cheat. As a content maker and user i have no concern for any of these people, in fact I'm glad they are gone. As someone pointed out here the laws are upheld by the people and the people support MS in this decision. And for those of you that are just backing up your games, take better care of your disks. Among the thousands that my friends and I have, none have suffered any unreasonable damage. Don't use accident or poor care to justify an insecure service.
I am a customer, I pay them. I vote with my dollar, but before that I bitch and complain. Companies that don't want to lose my dollars from them acquiesce. In this case of course, I support what they're doing. In other TOS situations, such as the banning of Mystere in Everquest, I did not.
No one has the right to demand replacements, but making backup copies of your own media is a right called fair use. The fact that you don't know this shows just how good a job the various corporations have done in brainwashing us to think that all copying is piracy.
There is more to science than physics!
www.iomalfunction.blogspot.com
First analogy is closer. And I say, why not? If the car passes road specs (I doubt it wouldn't), then go nuts.
I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
Your reply shows how little you know about "fair use". Fair use is not to allow wanton duplication of media but to allow limited reproduction of copyrighted material, for use in a different manner than originally intended.
So fair use doesn't allow you to copy your game, but it does allow reviewers to create screen captures or show gameplay videos in their reviews. Almost never does it allow you to copy an entire piece of work.
To paraphrase your post, The fact that you don't know this shows just how good a job the various piracy advocate groups have done in brainwashing us to think that all piracy is justifiable.
See, me saying it doesn't make it true, same goes for you. But your Ad hominim characterization of me says more about your biases than my 'brain washing'. I don't care what 'various corporations' think any more than what anonymous internet posters do. What I care about is knowing the actual meaning of terms like 'fair use' so when its used as a bullshit excuse to copy a product that people worked hard to create, I can call bullshit.
I don't care if you sit in your little room copying your games and modding your console. If that's the best you can do with your time so be it. But don't claim you have some legal right to do it and if you do at least read the Wikipedia page for the right you are citing in your defense.
I don't mod any consoles mainly because I don't own any, thank you very much. Actually, I have looked this stuff up and yes, it is legal for me to back up software I have legally bought for personal use. And I didn't read that on wikipedia. I read it on the patent office website. http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-digital.html#backup
The best I'm doing with my time is getting a Ph.D. in a time when my country is very short of scientists.
There is more to science than physics!
www.iomalfunction.blogspot.com
That is not fair use and arguably isn't the matter at hand. Yes there are provisions for creating backups of software but that doesn't extend to the modification of hardware. It also never states outright that anyone has the "right" to backup but rather says "under certain conditions" you may do so. Given that copyright cases are decided on a case by case basis and put the burden of proof on the defense, suggesting that this is a "right" is more exaggeration than fact.
While I do accept the abstract archival argument I have little patience for it. It's a statistically insignificant portion of the population. In truth the vast majority of modders are pirates and as a person that makes a living creating content I have no sympathy for their rights to archive games bought by other people. The idea that businesses that employ hundreds of thousands of people have no right to protect themselves from a claim for a group that is quite possibly apocryphal defies all logic. It always seems the pro copy/modding "archivers" end up not actually having a system, for them the argument is academic. Well there are a great number of us for which the argument is very real.
I don't deny the gaming industry has some serious structural issues. But to be fair the industry is still in it's infancy. No matter though, because the idea of fighting unfair prices with theft has no foundation in reason for a luxury entertainment service
Good luck with that Ph.D. Assuming you are from the US your country does need all the scientist it can get.
When you buy a gaming console, or an Apple product, you are already agreeing to opt into a closed system. This is why the PC platform absolutely rules. There's absolute flexibility in choosing hardware or operating system, and when it comes to games, you can connect to any server (if the game was made that way).
If you want to play an old game like HalfIife 1, or even Doom/Duke 3D/Quake with your friends, you can easily do so. Whereas if you were dependent on the whim of Sony or Microsoft, they would've shut these down long ago, calling them unprofitable.
Give me a PC any day- I can use any hardware/software I want, and play games too without shelling out subscription fees or being at the mercy of a company's ToS.
"..One hosts to look them up, one DNS to find them, and in the darkness BIND them."
I think most reasonable people would agree with what you said.
I'm a heavy Xbox 360 user. I haven't been banned from XBL, because I don't go out of my way to break the TOS. I have been banned (for two weeks...once) from xbox.com, for posting something some unnamed moderator didn't like. A few of my friends have been (temporarily) banned from XBL for things like having "FFTW" in their motto.
In all cases it was impossible to get the exact reason for the ban. When I was banned from xbox.com I couldn't even send a private message to the moderators asking about why I was banned, because the ban removed my ability to PM the moderators. In all cases the bans were handed out anonymously, with no information about how to escalate if you felt you were banned erroneously. People were basically left guessing as to why they were banned with no way to find out what the reason really was. This is consistent across the board with Microsoft.
If I don't know why I was banned, how am I supposed to correct my behavior? Not knowing also often leads to all kinds of unhealthy speculation, paranoia and conspiracy theories.
Why can't Microsoft just tell people? They have all the information about why they banned someone after all.
In Soviet Russia, I ruled you
Maybe during the day. But the pesky lack of headlights and taillights may hinder night driving a bit...
The same thing that gives people rights when they walk into a store. The same rights that says when you buy something, the seller can't change how it works when you get it home.
Creating a company doesn't mean you are exempt from the rules of society.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
too bad I have agree to then rules before I can even read them.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
except you don't know what you agreeing to until AFTER you bought it.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Again, nothing stops the console from working here. You simply can't play it on the network if you violate those terms of service. It works fine off the network.
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
Refer to my other replies, I'll save the bits here.
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.