Israeli Knesset Approves Biometric Database Law

Lord Duran writes "The Israeli Knesset approved a bill that will require every Israeli citizen to submit a visual scan of their face and a biometric scan of their fingerprints to a national database. I, for one, fail to see how this is anything but evil. TFA mentions the Israeli census was breached — I'd like to point out, for comparison, that it's still freely available on your peer-to-peer file sharing network of choice."

Comments

Mark of the beast

[timeOday]

...except without the mark!

Oh, wait, that's New Testament anyways, isn't it? Nevermind...

Re:Mark of the beast

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Create national database of biometric info
2. Fail to prevent database from being hacked
3. Hackers now can fake the ID of anyone in the database.

Something I haven't heard about but can't imagine a bad guy not thinking of, when faced with a biometric input device, is to "fix" the device to allow an alternate data transmission (perhaps by induction). Then the bad guy simply feeds the data that the database expects to match, bypassing the scanning-and-converting-to-data that the biometric input device is supposed to do.

Re:Mark of the beast

[Anonymous Coward]

Never gets old. You're like this generation's Dane Cook.

Re:Mark of the beast

[Anonymous Coward]

If only the Israeli people had experience of Nazi Germany, perhaps they'd realise the danger of a country which keeps biological information on its citizens.

Re:Mark of the beast

[asaz989]

The Nazis did their thing even (in fact mostly) in occupied territory throughout Europe where the local governments didn't keep biological information on every citizen. This association of everything the Nazis did with Nazism is getting on my nerves. (Hitler was a vegetarian. The Nazis built the Autobahns. Are either of those evil?)

Re:Mark of the beast

[Shakrai]

Hitler was a vegetarian. The Nazis built the Autobahns. Are either of those evil?

You'd think the former was evil if you were a vegetable.

Re:Mark of the beast

[Anonymous Coward]

no wonder, it is an evil country

It's Israel

[Philip K Dickhead]

Everything they do is evil.

Re:It's Israel

[BadAnalogyGuy]

While their actions and policies towards the Palestinians are pretty heinous, you can't just paint the whole society as evil. They have developed a verymodern society in the midst of their enemies and excel at many fields of science and literature.

You can blame the Jews for persecuting the Palestinians, but you can't say that everything they do is evil.

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

This is modded Troll? Wow.

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

You can blame the Jews for persecuting the Palestinians

Is that like being an apologist for terrorists, and then blaming the victims when they try to defend themselves? Wait, that's not a bad analogy, it's just what you're doing. You can't blame the Jews for persecuting the Palestinians, because they haven't been. They actually get better treatment is Israel than in any other country in the Middle East. If the Palestinians don't like the defensive measures Israel takes, then they should stop attacking Israel.

Here's an analogy for you- What do you think would happen if the Mexican government started sending rockets and mortars into El Paso because they wanted to take Texas back? What would happen if snipers from Mexico started shooting farmers in Arizona? If they blew up crowds of shoppers in San Diego? And the Mexican government refused to stop? I think the US would start carpet bombing in about 2 seconds. Does that analogy work for you?

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you think would happen if the Mexican government started sending rockets and mortars into El Paso because they wanted to take Texas back?

What do you think would happen if America drove a bunch of bulldozers through Mexico and paid Americans to build houses and live there?

Re:It's Israel

[MrNaz]

So... offering the people a place to stay was heinous?

They were not offered a place to stay, Palenstinian land and buildings are usurped using the progressive tactic of:

1. Build border settlements
2. Whine about rocket attacks
3. Move border out of range of rockets

Wash, rinse, repeat. This is why the illegal settlements are such a sore point in the issue; they are the mechanism by which Israel is stealing the entire area that was the Palestinian state. Just look at a map from 1948 and a map from today. If you have time, check the map every decade between, you'll see Israel increasing steadily in area.

I guess you consider it heinous to defend your sovereignty?

That's just it; the Palenstinians contend that Israel is not only violating their sovereignty, but displacing it physically by pushing their country into a smaller and smaller area. Gaza and the West Bank are becoming more and more overpopulated as the Palestinian lands shrink, effectively making them concentration camps.

There is however a large group of nomads that chose to be led by a well known terrorist organization .

Say what you want about Hamas. They were elected fairly, in elections overseen by Jimmy Carter. Whatever you, the UN or your government may think of them, they are the democratically elected party, and they were elected mainly because the previous group who did not support direct violence fell out of favour because Israel refused to negotiate with them. This fuelled support for Hamas. Now that Hamas are in Israel strangely wants to talk to Fatah again.

Smells like Israel just wants a belligerent neighbor so they can keep pointing at them and playing victim all the while dredging military aid from the US by the billions.

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if Mexico had tried to invade the U.S., and lost badly, and had a bunch of their land taken away for starting a war against the U.S., I would say too bad for Mexico.

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi! I'm going to move into your house, and offer you a place to stay. Sound good to you?

Re:It's Israel

[ground.zero.612]

So... offering the people a place to stay was heinous?

They were not offered a place to stay, Palenstinian land and buildings are usurped using the progressive tactic of:

1. Build border settlements 2. Whine about rocket attacks 3. Move border out of range of rockets

Wash, rinse, repeat. This is why the illegal settlements are such a sore point in the issue; they are the mechanism by which Israel is stealing the entire area that was the Palestinian state. Just look at a map from 1948 and a map from today. If you have time, check the map every decade between, you'll see Israel increasing steadily in area.

I guess you consider it heinous to defend your sovereignty?

That's just it; the Palenstinians contend that Israel is not only violating their sovereignty, but displacing it physically by pushing their country into a smaller and smaller area. Gaza and the West Bank are becoming more and more overpopulated as the Palestinian lands shrink, effectively making them concentration camps.

There is however a large group of nomads that chose to be led by a well known terrorist organization .

Say what you want about Hamas. They were elected fairly, in elections overseen by Jimmy Carter. Whatever you, the UN or your government may think of them, they are the democratically elected party, and they were elected mainly because the previous group who did not support direct violence fell out of favour because Israel refused to negotiate with them. This fuelled support for Hamas. Now that Hamas are in Israel strangely wants to talk to Fatah again.

Smells like Israel just wants a belligerent neighbor so they can keep pointing at them and playing victim all the while dredging military aid from the US by the billions.

Right. Because it's completely justifiable, logical, and rational to elect fucking terrorists as your leaders. They don't have a country, they never did as far I as I can tell. Their complete inability to defend their sovereignty is the nail in that coffin. The fact that they elected terrorists democratically is irrelevant.

Back in 1948 when Israel was declared independent, no one displaced. No one was kicked out. What did happen though was a bunch of racist "palestinians" who hated the Jews so much that they got up and left voluntarily. Then after it was all said and done it was suddenly a problem that needed a solution. A man made problem by a bunch of obviously barbaric people.

How civilized can you say a people really are when they elect terrorists to lead them? How sovereign is a nation that technically cannot defend itself from foreign threats?

Re:It's Israel

[R2.0]

"You can blame the Jews for persecuting the Palestinians, but you can't say that everything they do is evil."

Your bias is showing through. You are identifying one group by religion and one by nationality. It should either be:

"You can blame the Israelis for persecuting the Palestinians".

Or

"You can blame the Jews for persecuting the Muslims"

Re:It's Israel

[shutdown -p now]

Just look at a map from 1948 and a map from today. If you have time, check the map every decade between, you'll see Israel increasing steadily in area.

Most of Israeli territorial gains were outcomes of wars, most of which they didn't trigger.

Six-Day War is arguable, but I can certainly see how moves by Arab countries, and specifically Egypt, were highly threatening at that point, and IMO, given the information that Israelis had then, and the consequences of their choices, preemptive attack was the only rational option they were left with; and, at the same time, Egypt could easily defuse the situation and prevent the war if Nasser had the desire to do so.

Re:It's Israel

[AmericanGladiator]

This "Philip" guy is basically a PR guy for Ahmadinejad and Iran. I wouldn't waste your time arguing with him.

Re:It's Israel

[MrNaz]

Right. Because it's completely justifiable, logical, and rational to elect fucking terrorists as your leaders.

You call them terrorists, they call them freedom fighters. It's a matter of perspective. Get some.

Back in 1948 when Israel was declared independent, no one displaced. No one was kicked out. What did happen though was a bunch of racist "palestinians" who hated the Jews so much that they got up and left voluntarily.

Total misdirection; a typical tactic of the pro-Israel mob. In 1948 when Israel was declared to exist (it did not declare independence, as it did not exist prior to that), it immediately enacted Jewish favoring laws, and the Irgun and Haganah (which would later become the IDF) harassed and threatened the Palestinians so that they left out of fear. There was a recent exhibit in Melbourne where Palestinian families told how they lost their homes as the borders of Israel creep outward, displacing the people as they go. Most Palestinians do not have Israeli citizenship, and so as the borders move, so must they. Trouble is, their houses do not. Many told stories of being able to look over barbed wire fences and actually see people living in the house that they had to abandon only a few years earlier.

How civilized can you say a people really are when they elect terrorists to lead them?

Dunno. How about you tell me about the US being led by people like Colin Powell, who willfully lied to the world about WMDs in order to start an illegal, unpopular. Tell me about GW Bush whose family fortunes are essentially based on war. Tell me about Henry Kissinger who has some kind of fetish for ruining South American economies for fun and relaxation. Tell me about Cheyney lobbying Congress to ensure that his Halliburton cronies got the lions share of the Iraqi war loot.

Then also talk to me about Israel holding a big ceremony celebrating the Irgun terrorists who bombed the King David hotel.

Israel is a state founded with violence. Its borders were carved out by the illegal violence perpetrated by the Irgun and Haganah. Live by the sword, die by the sword. If Israel wants to rule by virtue of being the stronger party, that's fine. But at least be man enough to admit the desire to rule by might. Don't do it and whine the whole time when others challenge that type of rule.

Also, tell me who the terrorists are given a) relative body counts between Israeli civilians and Palestinian civilians b) the fact that Israel has violated more UN resolutions than any other country while pointing vociferously at any other country that violates them (hey, either you support the UN or you don't, but you don't get to point at violators when you yourself are the biggest violator) and c) Israel's continual policy of setting up illegal settlements right along the border and then moving the border just a bit more.

Sorry, Israel is *not* above reproach. Far, far from it.

Re:It's Israel

[MozeeToby]

Not that I disagree with your sentiment (as a general rule you shouldn't try to label entire societies as good or evil) but how exactly is modernization, science, and literature 'not evil' by definition. Not to Godwin the discusion, but NAZI germany advanced the fields of human biology and engineering; so much so that their research is still used today (because it can't be ethically repeated).

Re:It's Israel

[BadAnalogyGuy]

Let me try to paraphrase your post.

"What about all the good things Hitler did!"

Wow.

Re:It's Israel

[AmazingChicken]

There was no Israel until a people ignored by the British (yes, the Brits, read up on Palestine at the end of WW II) in Palestine declared they were going to TAKE land and set up a state. No one strong enough was interested enough to take action. So in your example, if Israel had lost, they would deserve total subjugation? "Too bad?" No, I suspect they'd have been martyred instead. Trouble with Israel is the same as with any country fought over for many centuries. Americans don't have the history, so they have "all the answers." Count yerself lucky ya cowardly anon. Less to think about.

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Just look at a map from 1948 and a map from today. If you have time, check the map every decade between, you'll see Israel increasing steadily in area.

I'm not Pro-Israel by any means and I don't particularly like the way it was founded (modern day Israel) but you should look at the history as well.

Israel was invaded multiple times - almost destroyed. They took land like Gaza and the West Bank as a buffer from REAL threats.

Let's see your country get invaded by ALL your neighbors (though Jordan's participation was half-hearted). I'd be surprised if it responds in a warm fuzzy fashion.

Re:It's Israel

[rand0mbits]

You call them terrorists, they call them freedom fighters. It's a matter of perspective. Get some.

I think you're a bit confused. There is nothing stopping a person from being a freedom fighter and a terrorist at the same time. The first term refers to why they're doing what they're doing. The second refers to how they do it. So while Hamas may (it's rather questionable. but so are many other things) be fighting for freedom, how they do it (purposefully targeting, attacking and executing unarmed civilians) makes them terrorists.

Re:It's Israel

[ChromeAeonium]

I thought about him a while back in my Jewish studies class (online gen-eds, gotta love 'em). There was a part dealing with antisemitism, about how it has evolved to into anti-Israeli sentiment to cover it's ass, so to speak, by taking the guise of a reasonable argument against a nation's policies, not pure racist hatred, because clearly there are two types of anti-Israel sentiment: reasonable and racist. Imagine if black people only made up a small enough percent of the population that 40% could live in one small area. Do you think the KKK and the neo-nazi skinheads would criticize that nation's policies, regardless? You know they would, and publicly, they'd do it under the guise of 'criticizing policy' but really, it would be racism. We all know it would be. Israel is the same way. Take a race that has historically been hated and but them in their own little country, guess what the racists say about it? Only now, they have a mask for their racism, they can claim that they're anti-Israel, not the antisemitic Jew hating racists that they really are.

I don't think criticism of Israel is all without merit. Yes, some of it is insane, like when people say the Israelis are monsters for defending themselves from terrorists who want to kill as many Israeli citizens as possible, but Israeli policy has, at times, not helped things, and that is worth criticizing. Israel has done, and does do, bad things. One of my Arabic professors presented very reasonable criticisms of Israel. Problem is, there's enough blame to go around when Israel's neighbors are supporting a group that launches rockets at Israeli civilians while hiding behind other civilians and using them as shields, so it is hardly unreasonable when Israel takes the precautionary principle, and a degree of overreaction on their part is sadly justified.

But I agree with you all the way, you're wasting your time if you argue with douchebag. I saw a bumper sticker the other day that read 'Hate is the ONLY enemy.' People like him, they hate. They are part of the problem. Israelis are not the enemy, Palestinians are not the enemy, Arabs are not the enemy, Iranians are not the enemy. People who hate are the enemy. There is so much antisemitism and islamophobia in that region and around the world trying to make itself look reasonable, it's disgusting. There's plenty about Israel you can debate, but not with an antisemite who thinks the Israeli people are evil and that a country were people are born and die and make their homes and lives shouldn't even have the right to exist.

Not everyone wants peace. They are the problem. They are the evil ones.

Re:It's Israel

[yariv]

You should get your facts right.

Israel never moved the border in the way you describe, rockets were shot at us (I'm an Israeli) over two borders, Lebanon and Gaza. Ask the UN, and they will tell you we retreated long ago (that is, 9 years for Lebanon, 4 for Gaza) to the border, as it was since 1948 (though we do invade from time to time, I don't like when people shoot at me).

In 1948, the Israeli armed forces tried to drive Arabs out of territories they controlled, the Arab forces (armies of neighboring countries) urged them to leave (to make their war easier) and in general there was a war (so, death and destruction all around). Although the actions by Israeli forces were problematic, you should remember two points:
      * There was no organized transfer, otherwise places like Jaffa and Haifa would be cleared of Arabs as well.
      * Things must be considered in comparison to the norms of those days, as you don't judge your founding fathers for denying other people their rights (slaves). In the forties transfer solutions in an attempt to create countries of a single nation were common and accepted. In Europe you can look at the way Poland and Czechoslovakia treated their German citizens, in Asia you can look at India and Pakistan.

As for the place of the Irgun in Israeli history and politics, I can tell you they held very little influence at the time they acted, and for 25 more years. They reached power long after they stop using terror and became just a political organization.

As for body counts, your argument seem to be flawed, for several reasons:
        * You can't (in most cases) tell if a dead Palestinian is a civilian, they don't wear uniforms.
        * What about the dead combatants? If the Palestinians kill 10 civilians a month, no soldiers, and we kill 20 civilians among 200 combatants, you'll have us as the terrorists?
        * What does your argument say about any NATO member? They all killed more civilians in Afghanistan then they had died in terror attacks... So I guess NATO is a terror organization.

Regarding the UN resolutions, Israel didn't violate that many resolutions of the security council (we did violate some, for example we gather intelligence in Lebanese sky), and the general assembly has no power in the UN, as we know. And although we point from time to time at other countries, I can't think of any one but Lebanon (which has worse record then we have) and Iran (which is probably the country that violated the most).

So no, Israel in not above reproach, nobody is, but it is also not automatically guilty of everything you might think of, and guilt should be proved with actual facts.

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

What about the dead combatants? If the Palestinians kill 10 civilians a month, no soldiers, and we kill 20 civilians among 200 combatants, you'll have us as the terrorists?

Utter nonsense.
Israeli civilian deaths number in the tens per *year*.
Even if you assume that *every* *single* *adult* killed was actually a combatant, the total number of *children* killed by bombs and white phosphor incendiaries is greater than the total number of Israeli dead.

Yes, I can tell that you're Israeli by the way you fabricate numbers.

Re:It's Israel

[ChromeAeonium]

Israel is a state founded with violence.

That's every country, by the way. Look at how many countries were formed by, at one point in their history, by unjustly killing the natives. Almost all, if not all, of them. Might have been 300 years ago, might have been 100 years ago, might have been 50 years ago, but the only thing that separates Israel and every other country in that respect is time.

Re:It's Israel

[Trillian_1138]

I really appreciate hearing someone who acknowledges some of Israels faults while still seeming to be in favor of the country. (Usually, the loudest participants in any discussion fall into "Israel is evil and bad" or "Israel is blameless and good.") That said...

Things must be considered in comparison to the norms of those days, as you don't judge your founding fathers for denying other people their rights (slaves). In the forties transfer solutions in an attempt to create countries of a single nation were common and accepted. In Europe you can look at the way Poland and Czechoslovakia treated their German citizens, in Asia you can look at India and Pakistan.

I'm not sure I agree. I think you should definitely keep in mind the norms of the day, celebrating what the US Founding Fathers did right, for example. But I don't think that gives them an excuse or an out for doing things we now consider really reprehensible (keeping slaves, not considering that women might like to vote, too, etc).

I don't think this should be used as an excuse to villainize Israel. But I also don't think the norms of the 40s and 50s should excuse the really problematic things Israel and the UN did, either.

Re:It's Israel

[Hognoxious]

they are the mechanism by which Israel is stealing the entire area that was the Palestinian state.

No such state existed when Israel was created. Are you perhaps confusing it with the province of the Ottoman empire that shared the same name?

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you ignoring events such as the Balfour Declaration of 1917, and the many others in the chain of events that led up to Israel? I don't think you understood my analogy either, sorry there was nothing about cars in it. If Israel had stated they were going to kill everyone in Egypt, in an attempt to take the land, and planned and launched an attack, I would not support it. If they got their asses handed to them, as the Arab states did a few times, and Egypt generously decided to only take a strip of land on the border, it would be too bad for them. Of course it was the Arab states that stated the goal of killing every person in Israel, and attacking, and losing. I can't imagine why you think I claim to have "all the answers' but I do count myself lucky I don't think like you do.

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately for a lot of innocent persons, the Israeli military has a high likelihood of creating a mass exodus... The Sinai desert to the south was used by their nuclear program, then given back to Eygpt. After spending billions why just walk away? Perhaps there is a problem of radiation contamination and associated clean up costs?
The Golan heights has been better documented. It has been contaminated by depleted uranium, vaporised, leaving 1.5 micron particles which will be now seeping into the groundwater.
Similar story in Gaza.
Iran now has uranium enrichment plants and will probably retaliate using similar arms as the Israelis have used in Lebanon (great for armour piercing).
What is the probability that major Israeli cities will be contaminated by radiation in the next conflict the Israelis want to trigger?

Somehow I doubt Europe will be welcoming millions of contaminated refugees (many have dual citizenship), because of the long term health costs of related radiation illnesses.

Will America accept a large number of irradiated refugies? I kind of doubt it.

Israel is now boxed in geographically, due to radioactive waste and contamination to the North and South. That only leaves the East - the Mediteranean sea is not habitable as far as I know.

Can the Israeli military finally try to revise their strategy and try to cut their losses?

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree "How civilized can you say a people really are when they elect terrorists to lead them?"

David Ben Gurion - member of Haganah - Israeli Prime Minister

Moshe Sharett - member of Haganah - Israeli Prime Minister

Yitzhak Rabin - member of Haganah - Israeli Prime Minister

Shimon Peres - member of Haganah - Israeli Prime Minister

Menachim Begin - leader of Irgun - Israeli Prime Minister

Yitzhak Shamir - leader of Lehi - Israeli Prime Minister

Ariel Sharon - member of Haganah - Israeli Prime Minister

Moshe Dayan - member of Haganah - Israeli Foreign Minister

Re:It's Israel

[binary paladin]

War is just terrorism with a bigger budget. (And better political spin.)

You call them unarmed civilians, we call them "collateral damage."

Re:It's Israel

[yariv]

It is true that in 2008 only tens of Israeli civilians died, I have to agree, but this greatly vary from year to year. It mainly depend on the techniques terrorists use and how much do we adapt. In 2001, for example, the numbers will be in the hundreds, so will be the number of Palestinians, by the way. What you just did will be similar to explain the war in Afghanistan while ignoring everything that happened until 2003, 9/11, for example.

Anyway, you miss the point. Terror is not killing civilians, many people kill civilians all the time, terror is intentionally killing civilians (in order to spread terror). Israeli bases are (in most cases, and anyway near the borders) outside civilian settlements, so you can fairly say when civilians were killed it was intentional. Hamas operate from civilian buildings, this includes houses, but also schools, hospitals etc. You might claim that when they do that we can't attack, but that's not the international law, we may attack, provided we take care to harm as few civilians as possible. Now, the critical point is, of course, the acceptable ratio. I would advise checking the numbers, and comparing the ratio here in other places where forces tend to use civilians as cover.

Anyway, when we have more firepower, more people will die on the other side. We do not, for example, shoot missiles randomly into populated areas, as Hamas does (from time to time). We try to hit the terrorists, you might argue that we don't try to avoid civilians enough, but saying we kill them on purpose... I simply can't find the words for that.

Re:It's Israel

[rand0mbits]

You call them unarmed civilians, we call them "collateral damage."

In order for it to be collateral damage, it has to be, well, collateral. Do you actually read what you're replying to? Let me point you to the part you missed: purposefully targeting ... unarmed civilians. As far as your cute line about war = terrorism, did you miss the memo regarding it being illegal to kill noncombatants in modern day wars? Unless you were just being an ass, here, educate yourself: http://hnn.us/articles/1345.html

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

...a country were people are born and die and make their homes and lives shouldn't even have the right to exist.

So would Israel still "exist" if it changed it's name to something ethnically neutral and renounced all discrimination (e.g. Jews-only right of "return")? When people talk about Israel's "right to exist" what they generally mean is "privilege to discriminate".

Not everyone wants peace.

I've also heard it said that everyone wants peace, they just want it on their own terms.

IMHO, the central issue is discrimination. As they say, "No justice, No peace." As long as people are being discriminated against, you're not going to have a lasting peace.

People get their panties all bunched up worrying about one-state solutions and two-state solutions. But, until you lay out discrimination square in the middle of the negotiating table and require that any solution be free of discrimination, you're not going to have lasting peace. Now, granted a two-state solution that is free of discrimination will either require that Palestine get Nukes or that Israel give them up - so, as hard as a one-state solution, might be to achieve, it's going to be a whole lot easier than a discrimination free two-state solution.

As an aside, for the clueless, some key areas of discrimination currently are: Jews-only right of "return", Israel's name, and the declaration that Israel is a "Jewish" state - at a bare minimum Israel would have to give those up to actually be free of discrimination.

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you shouldn't be there then ?

It's not like you were invited by your neighbors...

Although there were jews living in that area for a decades - if you look at maps pre-ww2, there is no Israel.
And when you start behaving like nazis, you are surprised everybody hates your guts?

Re:It's Israel

[whistler1]

Israeli forces targeting civilians? This post is just the Israeli government sophistry.

Would you tell us how many Israelis have been killed since, let us say, September 2000?

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

Of course that is not the official Israeli government figure so you may not accept it.

Read the Goldstone report. Of course Israel targeted civilians including a UN School! Why does Israel not have a proper judicial investigation of the allegations in that report.

In any case in the situation that the Palestinians find themselves in in Gaza would not everyone join the resistance.

David Ben Gurion 1970: "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel."

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

1) live in israel for 10 years first before passing judgment - I
guarantee that many of the unpopular decisions
won't seem to go far enough.
2) more resolutions have been passed on israel than
on any other nation. The UN indulges in its
fetish of attacking the country it created, the
worlds only piece of atonement for their dreadful record
during world war 2 of saving Jews (IBM, anyone?), and all the while millions suffer a MUCH harsher fate than the hate-filled, baby-sniping murderous Palestinian Arabs. What do the
People of Darfur have to endure before there is a decent effort to save them? No. It's israel israel israel
3) as I told my boss simply at work: look, you know who the good guys and the bad guys are by what they teach their children. Jews and Israelis prepare for war but teach for peace. Whereas the Palestinian Arabs dress their children up in uniforms and sing songs about using their blood as bullets and watching farfur the mouse on their childrens show get murdered. Www.memri.org

Again. Do your homework and stop relying on the biased world media (which the Jews are laughably said to run, of course)

Re:It's Israel

[whistler1]

Well yes of course you are right - in part. But time is not the only thing that sets Israel apart. It also seems to be alone in continually
whining and expecting the international community to provide sympathy and, in the case of the US, military and financial support when the natives strike back. If it is operating on the principle that might is right it should be consistent about it.

Re:It's Israel

[whistler1]

When was Israel invaded multiple times? The surrounding Arab countries reacted to the Zionist persecution of the local population when Israel was set up.

But if you read the history Israel precipitated the war then and used it to obtain more territory.

http://www.representativepress.org/Sources.html

Israel precipitated the 1967 war.
http://www.gregfelton.com/middle/2007_06_07.htm
Egypt and Syria invaded Israeli occupied Sinai and Golan Heights. On no occasion was Israel "almost destroyed".

Let's see your land invaded (by Israel - the Middle Eastern superpower). And I'd be surprised if it responds in a warm fuzzy fashion.

Re:It's Israel

[LanMan04]

As far as your cute line about war = terrorism, did you miss the memo regarding it being illegal to kill noncombatants in modern day wars?

I wish the US had heard about that:

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a false statement. Go read a bit of history... The American continent isn't "every other country".

Additionally, it being done in the past doesn't make it right today. We did quite a lot of wrong things in the past, such as... slavery, doesn't make it right today. We're meant to improve and become better, not keep doing the same wrong things we did in the past.

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Fucking anti-semite

Re:It's Israel

[Darktan]

Not my country. Canada was literally partied into existence. The founding fathers showed up in Charlottetown with a ship load of champagne to talk about confederation. You know, just in case they could find something to celebrate.

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Natives?

Have you no clue about the rich cultural and archeological history of the Jewish civilization found in Israel?

The Jewish people are just as native to the Mideast as any other race there.

Re:It's Israel

[Mask]

You are reversing the order of events.

1. Build border settlements

The towns near Gaza are not settlements, they are and always were within Israeli international borders. Ashdod is 43 Km (20 miles), it is not a "border settlement", most of Israel (Including Tel-Aviv) is below 43 Km from its borders.

2. Whine about rocket attacks

The US president would not act nicely towards Mexico if it launches rocket attacks on San Diego either.

they are the mechanism by which Israel is stealing the entire area that was the Palestinian state.

There was no Palestinian state, ever. The U.N decided to divide the British controlled area between the Jews and the Arabs. When the British left at 1948, the Arab states conquered the parts that we now call Palestine. This land was an integral part of Jordan and Egypt up until the war of 1969.

Just look at a map from 1948 and a map from today. If you have time, check the map every decade between, you'll see Israel increasing steadily in area.

You are trolling, this is simply false, it has been reversed lately. Since the peace talks began, parts of the occupied territories were given to the Palestinian authority (1994-5), and some of the newer maps mark these areas correctly. Unfortunately, due to later unrest Palestinian control was massively eroded (call it retaliation or a security necessity). Despite that, these lands are still marked as Palestinian in many maps.

Gaza and the West Bank are becoming more and more overpopulated as the Palestinian lands shrink, effectively making them concentration camps.

This is only a half truth. The West Bank is shrinking due to actions of Israel, and people there do suffer from it, but this is not so with Gaza (where the rockets come from). Gaza is within its 1948 borders, when it was part of Egypt, and Gaza is the most overpopulated part of Palestine. Israel has nothing to do with it. So do you say that Israeli actions deprive Gazans of land they could use in the west bank? Wrong, Gaza does not border with the West bank. People could never move freely between these two places, not even during their Arab rule. Geographically they are two different nations. They were linked together only due to political/strategic moves by all sides (Israeli, Palestinian, American, European, Egyptian and Jordanian).

The people of Gaza have only two possible expansion directions: towards Israel (beyond 1948 borders) or towards Egypt. This is what many of them want. This is one of the reasons why the peace talks stalled - Israel did not want to let a big percent of Palestinians immigrate to Israel, and the Palestinians did not want to give this thought up.

Say what you want about Hamas. They were elected fairly, in elections overseen by Jimmy Carter. Whatever you, the UN or your government may think of them, they are the democratically elected party

So was Slobodan Milosevic, it did not give him the right to do what he did. Hamas does not promote peace, they promote violence, or at most a temporary cease fire. They do not promote equality, but segregation by gender and religion instead. If anyone wants peace she should hope that Hamas will get out of the equation.

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

For now... Land ownership changes all the time, Jews should know that more than anyone else :P

Re:It's Israel

[nachas]

Zionist persecution? So when the arabs murdered 67 jews in cold blood in Hebron in 1929 was it the reaction to the "zionist persecution" of the local population? Or was it their anger over the liberated territories of 1967?

Re:It's Israel

[murdocj]

You conveniently forget that Israel launched a preemptive strike after Egypt expelled peacekeepers from the Sinai peninsula, closed the Straits of Tiran to ships traveling to Israel and built up an invasion force on the Israeli border. Israel had a choice between waiting for Nasser to decide the time was right to kill Jews, or striking first. And I would imagine most countries would consider having one of their ports closed an act of war. How would the US feel if Russia announced that it would sink any shipping that attempted to enter New York harbor?

I suppose Israel could have taken the moral high ground and waited for an attack. That would certainly make all the anti-Semites out there happy.

Re:It's Israel

[nachas]

You've raised an important issue: that is democracy vs judaism. In a democracy once the arabs become the majority they can peacefully and democratically vote the state of Israel out of existence. So yes there is a contradiction between the two. We can continue this discussion if you so desire.

Re:It's Israel

[clone53421]

Hi! I’m going to move into my house, which you for some reason decided to move into after I was hauled off in the dead of night and imprisoned unjustly without trial or basis other than my race. I’ll even let you stay there, if you’ll agree to be a halfway-civil roommate. Sound good to you?

Re:It's Israel

[phozz bare]

they are the mechanism by which Israel is stealing the entire area that was the Palestinian state

Just what Palestinian state do you speak of, sir?

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

We do, and we know a lot more: after enjoying such dubious "benefits" living with anonymous cowards as pogroms, holocausts and inquisitions we've learned our lessons. What would be a better place to protect ourselves with the use of force if necessary from the world's "TLC" than in our own land? If you have a problem with that you can eat you heart out.

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Total misdirection; a typical tactic of the pro-Israel mob. In 1948 when Israel was declared to exist (it did not declare independence, as it did not exist prior to that), it immediately enacted Jewish favoring laws, and the Irgun and Haganah (which would later become the IDF) harassed and threatened the Palestinians so that they left out of fear. There was a recent exhibit in Melbourne...

Total misdirection; a typical tactic of the pro-Palestinian mob (see? Anyone can do that). In November 1947, when the UN voted and approved the partition plan, Israel didn't "enact Jewish favoring laws", since the British Mandate terminated only in the middle of 1948, while the violence started a couple of weeks after the partition plan approval.

Anyway, it's easy to blame Israel for all the problems of the Palestinians, but if you'd look at the partition plan, you would see that the division was done according to the distribution of Arabs / Jews in the territories, and in that sense was very fair.

The problem is that the "Palestinians" (saying they're a people is like saying Israelis are a people) were pawns in the hands of the Arab states. The Israeli independence war is a good example of that.

I think that you speak too arrogantly for someone who's sole knowledge source is Wikipedia... I suggest you get some perspective too.

I'll get back to my Python shell now, if you don't mind.

Re:It's Israel

[shyisc]

short historical recap: The land of Israel has been the homeland of the people of Israel (nowadays known as Jews) for about 3300 years. The Israelis had independence in the countery for almost 1000 years. The temple, the worldwide center of God worship, stood on the temple mount for a total of 830 years. There has been Israelis living in the land of Israel for over 2280 years, icluding the past 2 millenia. Hardly anyone lived there there in the 19th century. Then suddenly there's an increasing movement of Israelis and Arabs into the country, Arabs at higher numbers than Israelis so that by 1948 the Arabs in the country outnumber the Israelis 2 to 1. The Israelis mainly kept to themselves, but the Arabs attacked Israeli towns during their rebellion against the French in ~1921, and performed pogroms against the Israelis in many areas in the country in 1929. The Israelis established a self-defence organization called Hagana (which literally means "defense"). A group broke off called Etzel (which is an acronym for "Nation Military Organization") and a group broke off those called Lechi (acronym for "Warriors of the Liberty of Israel"). The Hagana only did self defence, but the Etzel and Lechi also retaliated and in some cases took the initiative in the hoatilities. in 1936 the Arabs rebelled against the British but have also targeted the Israelis until 1939, when the rebellion was quelched. in 1947 the UN decided to partition the western bank of Israel between the Arabs and the Israelis. Hostilities continued. Months later Israel declared independence, and two days later was attacked by 7 Arab countries, only 4 of which share borders with the state of Israel. Syria, Jordan, and Egypt absorbed the lands the UN allocated to the "Arab Country", a country which has never existed in the first place. The PLO was formed in 1964, and it's foundation was the first time anyone claimed the existence of a Palestinian nation.

And an Ironic anecdote: Palestine is an Arab mispronunciation of the Hebrew word Plishti, which in English means "Invader".

But I guess no one cares. Supporting the Invaders, whatever their identity and claims, is alway good when the people they are assaulting are Israeli.

PS I might have been off by a year or two here and there in the dates.

Re:It's Israel

[whistler1]

Well yes I do know about the "rich Jewish archaeological history of Jewish civilization" do you? have you read Ilan Pappe?

http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/mqumsiyeh2.htm

And read this:

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/1494

It is almost certain that many of the Palestinians are descendants of the (Jewish) occupants of
Palestine in the 1st century of the modern era who converted to Islam.
Do you know about Palestinian culture or do you believe that Palestine was a "land without people for a people without land"?

The Jews are not a race - they are a religious group.
There is a human race - I believe that there is no reasonable definition of "race" that accords the term to Jews - or to Arabs for that matter.

Re:It's Israel

[whistler1]

And 435 survived because of shelter and assistance by their Arab neighbours.

Re:It's Israel

[shyisc]

Here we are again with short and selective momery. Forgetting the Israelis have lived in, and had sovereignty over Israel for way linger than anyone else. That the Israelis were there way longer than the newcomer Arabs, were here to greet them when they arrived, and never left. So yeah, if you only look back at the last 100 years you'd think Israelis are European foreigners, when in fact they forced into exile and didn't come back because they couldn't. The land was unuhabitable untile we returned and turned swamps into fields and deserts into forests, which is also the time when Arabs started flocking into our country in droves, to the point where the newcomers outnumbered the natives. And it's at that very convenient point in time, while ignoring all the Arab violence, that the European and American memory of this region begins. So people want to blame the Israelis. If the facts are inconvenient then crop them to fit.

Re:It's Israel

[asaz989]

Except that the Israeli state explicitly defines itself as the state of the Jewish ethnic nation.

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you think would happen if America drove a bunch of bulldozers through Mexico and paid Americans to build houses and live there

Um... that's kind of exactly what we did in Texas, minus the bulldozers which hadn't yet been invented.

Re:It's Israel

[whistler1]

You have not been reading what I sent. The Israeli leaders admit that they had no expectation that Egypt would invade.

And oh the usual "anti-semite" slur!

Re:It's Israel

[mrraven]

"We don't need anybody's invitation. We stole the land fair and square from it's original inhabitants creating hundreds of thousands of refugees" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#Refugees_from_1948_War I corrected your post for your to reflect the historical reality, you're welcome.

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

If anyone wants peace she should hope that Hamas will get out of the equation.

It's not that simple. I'm not all that familiar with history but I don't think a single conflict has been resolved through negotiations between representatives that have been the preferred choice of the respective enemies. Former Nobel peace prize recipient Martti Ahtisaari said it best: "You can't make peace talking to Sunday school teachers."

Re:It's Israel

[Eli Gottlieb]

they were elected mainly because the previous group who did not support direct violence fell out of favour because Israel refused to negotiate with them

Actually, Fatah fell out of favor because they were corrupt as... well... words do not come easily to describe how extremely, extremely corrupt they were.

Re:It's Israel

[Eli Gottlieb]

What did happen though was a bunch of racist "palestinians" who hated the Jews so much that they got up and left voluntarily.

No, they left to get out of the way of the invading Arab armies. They feared themselves caught between an Arab extermination machine and belligerent Zionists. Of course, the ones who had learned to get along with Jews became today's Israeli Arabs -- who sadly receive far more discrimination from Jewish racists than they deserve due to their association with their violent cousins over the Green Line.

Re:It's Israel

[Eli Gottlieb]

Not at all. Jews are the natives of Israel. Many countries, as you said, killed or enslaved their natives, but only in Israel must the natives defend themselves from outside invasions and PR campaigns designed to paint us as an outside invasion. It's rather ironic, really.

Re:It's Israel

[Eli Gottlieb]

And an Ironic anecdote: Palestine is an Arab mispronunciation of the Hebrew word Plishti, which in English means "Invader".

No it doesn't, Plishti means "Phillistine". It referred to the specifically Phillistine/Phonecian invaders who took over a small strip extending from Gaza up to modern-day Ashdod and ran a small trading society there. Since they were, after all, invaders, the Israelites hated them.

But anyway, I'm guessing you're Israeli or Jewish, right? I've never met anyone who knows our history so well and interprets it with such a Zionist view and doesn't belong ;-). For one thing, you spotted that the noun "Ben Yisrael" that described the Israelites in ancient times would today be translated into English as "Israeli".

Re:It's Israel

[Eli Gottlieb]

I believe that there is no reasonable definition of "race" that accords the term to Jews - or to Arabs for that matter.

No shit, since we both belong to the Semitic racial group. Of course, Ilan Pappe is not exactly an unbiased or reliable historian on the matter of Jewish civilization in Israel. It doesn't help that Benny Morris, a fellow of his "New Historian" school in Israel, has recently reversed his old positions right back to the old Zionist lines (and even before then criticized Pappe for his gullibility).

Re:It's Israel

[ground.zero.612]

"We don't need anybody's invitation. We stole the land fair and square from it's original inhabitants creating hundreds of thousands of refugees" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#Refugees_from_1948_War I corrected your post for your to reflect the historical reality, you're welcome.

You corrected it for historical accuracy? Fucking laughable. That entire region is historically called Judea. Can you guess why? I'll give you a hint, it has nothing to do with Turks, Arabs, or the muslims they turned into around 600AD.

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha yes...all the Jews from the Holocaust came from Israel. You're a fucking assclown. Kill yourself.

Re:It's Israel

[clone53421]

No; most were dragged out of their homeland against their will long before then, not that you probably know or care to learn about it.

Re:It's Israel

[clone53421]

most were dragged out of their homeland against their will long before then

Generations before then, I should really say, so it’s not really accurate to say that they were. Their ancestors were.

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

by "Jewish favoring laws" you probably mean the laws enabling every Jewish in the world to automatically receive Israeli citizenship the moment he or she steps in the country, a law that was suggested only because a of the Holocaust, where Jewish were murdered because they had no where to go. just a reminder, before starting to murder Jewish, Hitler tried to send Jewish to other countries but none agreed to receive us in big numbers. after Jewish groups noticed the direction of Hitler's government they themselves tried to escape, but no country allowed the ships filled with Jews to port, and sent them right back to where they came from (where they later were murdered). the Jews had no country, and so 6 mil have died. this law is meant to never let that happen again.

And for the borders Israel keeps pushing outwards, if you check the dates the borders changed you'll see almost all border changes happened during wars that Israel didn't start.

Re:It's Israel

[clone53421]

There is a human race - I believe that there is no reasonable definition of "race" that accords the term to Jews - or to Arabs for that matter.

By common ancestor... Jews are descended from Isaac, Arabs from Ishmael.

The ancestor you pick can be pretty arbitrary. You could just as justifiably say that all of the descendants of Abraham are one Abrahamic race. Cultural differences are helpful in making this determination, though, and religion is a significant influencer of culture.

Re:It's Israel

[clone53421]

So a blockade is fine, as long as you don’t plan to invade?

Re:It's Israel

[clone53421]

No it doesn't, Plishti means "Phillistine". It referred to the specifically Phillistine/Phonecian invaders who took over a small strip extending from Gaza up to modern-day Ashdod and ran a small trading society there. Since they were, after all, invaders, the Israelites hated them.

It’s spelled with one L, and he’s right anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#Origin_of_name

The name “Palestine” is the cognate of an ancient word meaning “Philistines” or “Land of the Philistines”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines#Etymology

The etymology of the word into English is from Old French Philistin, from Late Latin Philistinus, from Late Greek Philistinoi (Phylistiim in the Septuagint), from Hebrew P’lishtim, (See, e.g., 1 Samuel 17:26, 17:36; 2 Samuel 1:20; Judges 14:3), “people of P’lesheth” (“Philistia”); cf. Akkadian Palastu, Egyptian Palusata; the word probably is the people’s name for itself.

Biblical scholars often trace the word to the Semitic root p-l-sh (Hebrew: [unicode]) which means to divide, go through, to roll in, cover or invade, with a possible sense in this name as “migrant” or “invader”.

Re:It's Israel

[shyisc]

Phillistine is a mispronunciation of the Biblical word Plishti. Whether they chose that name or if they were dubbed so by the Israelis, but even if it's the former, we still have a very interesting and ironic historical coincidence.

I'm not sure the Israelis hated them. so far as I can tell, after Joshua's conquests the Israelis haven't really fought anything but wars of self defense until at least king david, and possibly even later. It were the Plishtim who have been encrouching on the territory of the Israeli tribes and trying to gain domination over them. I don't remeber all the details of the wars between Israel and Plashet, but sometimes they won, and sometimes we did. Sometimes they ruled over us, sometimes they didn't. Eventually king David conquered them, and they were conquered from us by Egypt about 60 years later.

Ben Israel (Son of Israel), Ish Israel (Man of Israel), Israel, Israeli, Am Israel (People of Israel),: all these and more are used to desribed the nation and individual members of the nation of Israel. Nowadays the term is misused to refer to any person who has been granted citizenship by the state of Israel, regardless of whether or not they are members of our nation. The term Jew oroginally meant a member of the tribe of Juda, then a member of the kingdom of Juda, and later a member of the nation of Israel.

BTW, all that I wrote I wrote from memory while attending class, so if therte are any mistakes, please forgive me. I am distracted and haven't reviewed the facts for a while. On that note I'll make 2 corrections to my previous post:
1. The Israelis have lived in Israel continuosly for over 3280 years until today, with a single 50-year break caused by being forceably exiled by the Babilonians, and forbidden to return until a Persian king finally gave us permission (he may have been the son of Ester, which would make hime Israeli).
2. The Arab mispronunciation of the Hebrew word "Plashet" is Falastin. Arabic doesn't have a P, so they can't even properly pronounce the name they adopted for themselves.

Re:It's Israel

[BgJonson79]

What was the percentage of buildings and land the Palestinians owned, versus the percentage of land the Turks of the Ottoman Empire owned? Because, what if the Turks owned like 85% of the land? They were forced to give it up after WWI... but that still doesn't make it the Palestinians' any more than if my theoretical landlord sells my building to someone else. And, arguably, the Palestinians already have a country... called Jordan. After all, it's the same ethnic group, just on the other side of the Jordan River (hence Trans-jordan to Jordan).

Re:It's Israel

[murdocj]

So the buildup of troops and tanks, the saber rattling, the "let's drive the Jews into sea" talk, closing a major shipping port, all that was just for fun. No harm, no foul?

Re:It's Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Moderating the parent, as Troll is a cheap way to hide facts from the eyes of others.
The parent contains a detailed response to its parent - a Troll who ignored historic facts. Giving historic facts for refuting a Troll, should not be modded as such.

Good quote

[Anonymous Coward]

FTA: "...that the system would be kept as confidential as any banking website"

Why does that not make me feel better about this?

Re:Good quote

[your_neighbor]

They will keep it at the same database where some measures from this research are recorded:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13589-sweat-ducts-may-act-as-giveaway-antennas.html

Re:Good quote

[Anonymous Coward]

We act as this is any different than having your picture on file at the dmv. What privacy is given up by a biometric face scan. Merely if you rob a bank you cant go dye your hair and get a hair cut and not be noticed. All this does is have more effective "picture" on file, and fingerprints. They arent getting a copy of your entire genome or anything its merely a more detailed "picture" of you.

Re:Good quote

[Anonymous Coward]

It shouldn't, the current data system of citizens in israel has been hacked for 6 times that I know of... So it's completely useless.

Just think how easy it is to criminalize someone :)

How do you change your password?

[harl]

Same problem with all biometrics.

What happens when the system is compromised? How do I change my password?

Re:How do you change your password?

[daid303]

How do I change my password?

Knifes and fire work.

Re:How do you change your password?

[Rik Sweeney]

Like this

Re:How do you change your password?

[NoYob]

Same problem with all biometrics.

What happens when the system is compromised? How do I change my password?

Or worse, what if Osama Bin Laden (or any other terorist) get's to insert his bio information into an Israeli citizen's profile? Now, Bin Laden has a valid Bio-Informatic ID in Israel. If he shaved off his beard, I couldn't tell him apart. It's been years since I've seen a photo of him. He'd get away with being Bernie Horowitz.

Re:How do you change your password?

[harl]

That method has a finite number of possible passwords. Prolongs the time until failure state but does not prevent failure state.

Re:How do you change your password?

[VShael]

Bizarrely, I think he'd rather die than pass himself off as a Jew. Or shave his beard.

Re:How do you change your password?

[Quiet_Desperation]

What happens when the system is compromised? How do I change my password?

You don't. You get that face changing surgery and spend the rest of your life looking like John Travolta or Nicolas Cage.

Re:How do you change your password?

[mea37]

Depends how the information is to be used. I don't have, and never had, any input into the information on my passport, so how do I "change my password" when it comes to my passport?

Someone could misuse the ubiquity of this information by trying to make it a "password"; and if so, that's a technical flaw in their security. As for the ID database program in general, the obvious flaws are based in privacy, not technology.

Re:How do you change your password?

[Yamata no Orochi]

The troll mods in this thread are getting out of hand. How do this many people not know what a troll is?

Re:How do you change your password?

[Idiomatick]

I've seen this Vshael guy, he really is 7' tall green and adorned with tusks.

Re:How do you change your password?

[timeOday]

How do I change my password?

Identification isn't the same thing as a password; not being able to make up new identities willy-nilly is the whole point.

Re:How do you change your password?

[harl]

You use different words but the problem is still the same. I'll speak in generic terms.

What happens when the system is compromised and someone else can identify as me? How do I again secure my identity? What do I change? How do I change it?

Re:How do you change your password?

[VShael]

I have no idea. But I suspected a personal vendetta at one point.

I'm more interested in why meta-moderation doesn't appear to be addressing the problem. Oh well.

Re:How do you change your password?

[VShael]

"I've seen this Vshael guy, he really is 7' tall green and adorned with tusks."

My evil twin.

I'm blue and cuddly, like Skull Theodore Troll.

Re:How do you change your password?

[dkf]

You use different words but the problem is still the same. I'll speak in generic terms.

What happens when the system is compromised and someone else can identify as me? How do I again secure my identity? What do I change? How do I change it?

What happens if someone breaks into the database and swaps around the biometric parts of the records for politicians and known terrorists?

Re:How do you change your password?

[harl]

I don't understand the problem. What info are you looking to put on your passport? You want to change your birthday? Your location of birth? You get to select the picture. You can change your name. There's no other information on there.

Regardless passports can be rendered invalid and reissued. How do you do that with bone structure?

Re:How do you change your password?

[harl]

The visual scan won't match.

Re:How do you change your password?

[sakdoctor]

...looked from politician to terrorist, and from terrorist to politician, and from politician to terrorist again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

Re:How do you change your password?

[Nathrael]

Because meta-moderation has shifted away from moderating moderation, instead being about promoting or demoting unmoderated posts.

Re:How do you change your password?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or worse, what if Osama Bin Laden (or any other terorist) get's to insert his bio information into an Israeli citizen's profile?

There are rumours that he may have a legitimate claim to being an Israeli Citizen :)

Re:How do you change your password?

[MiniMike]

I'd also rather Bin Laden die bizarrely than pass himself off as a Jew, or as anybody else.

Or shave his beard.

Not as sure about this, as it would destroy a small but thriving ecosystem without any benefit.

Re:How do you change your password?

[Iamthecheese]

MOD PARENT UP This modified bit from Animal Farm is entirely appropriate and insightful.

Re:How do you change your password?

[GodfatherofSoul]

That's because he's dead. So is she, probably for saying it.

Re:How do you change your password?

[mea37]

My point exactly. The concept of "change your password" doesn't apply. It's a knee-jerk reaction to any use of biometric data and, in this case, ignores how the data is being used.

Yes, you can revoke and re-issue a passport. That doesn't change your name or appearance; it doesn't make the data on the passport any less valid than it always was. It just means nobody will accept the lost passport as an official document any more.

What makes you think you can't do exactly the same thing with this ID? Sure, it may carry more detailed information; how does that relate to the ability to invalidate the document?

I say it "may carry" more detailed information because that isn't really what TFA says. It says that (1) every citizen will have an electronic ID, and (2) the database that contains the ID's will also contain biometric data. That's a bit of a distance from biometric data being on the card, and it's a world different from your biometrics being used as a "password" that you cannot change.

Re:How do you change your password?

[harl]

What makes you think you can't do exactly the same thing with this ID?

How do you invalidate and reissue fingerprints?

Re:How do you change your password?

[cayenne8]

"...not being able to make up new identities willy-nilly is the whole point."

Why?

I mean, at least in the US, as far as I know, it isn't against the law to be whomever you want to be. I believe there isn't any law against changing your identity. I know you can do it legally (legally as in binding and legal to use for things like applying for SS, etc). But as far as I know, there is no law out there requiring you to say you are Bob, if you feel like being Sammy or Cher the next day.

Re:How do you change your password?

[mea37]

That makes exactly as much sense as asking how you invalidate and reissue a name and photograph - i.e. your question makes no sense at all.

You don't. You don't have to. As I said before, you don't invalidate the data on the ID; you invalidate the ID. That is how it works with every card in your wallet today.

Re:How do you change your password?

[harl]

That's nice but it's not the point I was making in the post you responded to.

Re:How do you change your password?

[Anonymous Coward]

...looked from politician to terrorist, and from terrorist to politician, and from politician to terrorist again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

What does this have to do with Gerry Adams?

Re:How do you change your password?

[mea37]

That's nice, but the point you must think you were making has nothing to do with TFA.

You appear to think 'how will you change the password' is a valid objection to any use of biometric data. You are wrong if you think that. It is a valid objection to use of biometrics for authentication. TFA does not say anything about using biometrics for authentication.

So my mistake - I thought you were wrong and deserved a reply, but actually you were off topic and deserved a -1 moderation.

Re:How do you change your password?

[Bigjeff5]

I hated that movie so much.

"I want to take his face... off..." ugh, horrible. Such a stupid idea.

Anyways...

Re:How do you change your password?

[timeOday]

What happens when the system is compromised and someone else can identify as me?

Meaning, they change their face and fingerprints so they can go around committing crimes while masquerading as you? Not easy, and I don't see how this database makes it much easier; a photo and fingerprint are pretty easy to obtain if you are targeting an individual anyways.

Re:How do you change your password?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hook, line, and sinker.

Every ID card?

[TheMeuge]

What is a "biometric visual scan of their face"? A photograph?

Every country does that. It's called an ID card. As far as fingerprints, I've had to submit my fingerprints like 10 times for various services, clearances, not to mention immigration documents.

This isn't really news. Even if it's a 3D laser-scan, that's really not different from a photograph nowadays.

As much as it bothers me to have centralized databases of ANYTHING, if there is anything that needs a centralized database, it's identification. I'm a privacy freak and I am not sure that this bothers me, especially in the context of a country that can claim the dubious honor of being the most likely terrorist target in the industrialized world.

Re:Every ID card?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a privacy freak

I've had to submit my fingerprints like 10 times for various services

You are not a privacy freak, not until you change your behaviour.

Re:Every ID card?

[Quiet_Desperation]

What is a "biometric visual scan of their face"?

I heard the "Hot Or Not" website folks are consulting.

Re:Every ID card?

[TheMeuge]

I also like eating, sleeping in a warm bed, driving a decent car, and being able to afford to take a vacation once in a while.

Re:Every ID card?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. You value money above a philosophy. You are not a privacy freak.

Re:Every ID card?

[Anonymous Coward]

But all that makes you normal, with a merely healthy attitude toward privacy. To be a privacy "freak" you'd need to want to pass on all that in the name of privacy.

Re:Every ID card?

[Presto Vivace]

Well, the process would condition the population to accept any invasive procedure. Maybe that is the plan. This is what decades of living in fear will do to a population. The more the citizens are afraid, the more power they give to the government. Why would a government make peace under such circumstances?

Re:Every ID card?

[mea37]

Not sure what the face scan is; I'd guess it's somehow meant to be more computer-readable than a typical photo, but who knows.

I don't think capturing the data and putting it on the card is so much the problem, as keeping it in a central database.

Also, having a mandatory national ID is a bit much.

You've asserted that identify is one thing that needs a central database. Maybe that's true or maybe it's not, but if you accept it as a premise then you are not a "privacy freak".

Re:Every ID card?

[BobMcD]

As much as it bothers me to have centralized databases of ANYTHING, if there is anything that needs a centralized database, it's identification. I'm a privacy freak and I am not sure that this bothers me, especially in the context of a country that can claim the dubious honor of being the most likely terrorist target in the industrialized world.

Why?

Under what circumstances would a "SELECT * from PEOPLE where EYES = 'blue'" actually lower terrorism target vectors?

"Show me your papers" has worked just fine for every repressive regime to date. I fail to see any need to centralize this information, particularly when you can attach arbitrary penalties to lack of said ID. So it isn't as if ID will magically become unnecessary. You'll still have to have it, and it will still get used. And this data will ALSO get used. Now we get to ask, in what way?

Re:Every ID card?

[dkf]

What is a "biometric visual scan of their face"? A photograph?

Every country does that.

No, they don't. Yet.

Re:Every ID card?

[ovanklot]

What is a "biometric visual scan of their face"? A photograph?

It is the mathematical function that identifies your facial features as your own to a very high degree of probability.

Every country does that. It's called an ID card. As far as fingerprints, I've had to submit my fingerprints like 10 times for various services, clearances, not to mention immigration documents.

Your fingerprints are not in one big database that can be hacked (as others have been hacked before) along with the rest of your entire country. If you've given your fingerprints 10 times, I hope you're sure you gave them to people who can keep them a secret. You can't really change them later.

As much as it bothers me to have centralized databases of ANYTHING, if there is anything that needs a centralized database, it's identification. I'm a privacy freak and I am not sure that this bothers me, especially in the context of a country that can claim the dubious honor of being the most likely terrorist target in the industrialized world.

Think of someone using this database, along with live CCTV footage from a railway station (say, a public online webcam), singling out the Israelis in the crowd. When they see a large group of Israelis coming by, a suicide bomber comes along and explodes next to them. You don't have to be a privacy freak to shudder at that thought.

Re:Every ID card?

[harl]

What is a "biometric visual scan of their face"? A photograph?

Something that doesn't exist in the article. A quote you are making up.

The two items being stored are a visual scan and fingerprints.

Re:Every ID card?

[mpe]

This is what decades of living in fear will do to a population.

But most people don't deliberatly choose to go and live in a warzone.

Re:Every ID card?

[shutdown -p now]

Your fingerprints are not in one big database that can be hacked (as others have been hacked before) along with the rest of your entire country.

(I'm not GP but) I visited U.S., so yeah, I'm pretty sure that my fingerprints are in one big database. And, remembering Gary McKinnon, I would very much expect that said database can be hacked.

Re:Every ID card?

[ovanklot]

True, but we don't need more databases like these, we need less.

Re:Every ID card?

[Cwix]

Kudos on the informative mod, prob should be funny thou.

Re:Every ID card?

[StikyPad]

I heard they're going to call it "View a Jew"...

Re:Every ID card?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

As much as it bothers me to have centralized databases of ANYTHING, if there is anything that needs a centralized database, it's identification.

That's a terrible justification. You make absolutely no evaluation of how well it will work. We've already seen the japanese immigration fingerprint system publicly exploited with no insider help, twice in the last year. Other than the PR hype, why do you think that a system like this is going to have any significant effect on whatever problems it is being pitched to solve?

in the context of a country that can claim the dubious honor of being the most likely terrorist target in the industrialized world.

Ever think about the chances are that a system like this will be used to ratchet up some of the policies that result in all those terrorist attacks?

Re:Every ID card?

[cayenne8]

"Every country does that. It's called an ID card."

Interesting...where do you live?

There is no such national ID card in the USA. Hell, if you never drove a car, or left the country, even the state you live in wouldn't have a photograph on file for you. But even if you do have a drivers license (and I think in some states photo isn't actually required?), that is just the state with that information, it isn't shared with the feds or other states in any kind of national id database...at least, not yet.

Re:Every ID card?

[DamonHD]

So far the UK does *not* have a (universal compulsory) photographic ID card, and I'm hoping it stays that way.

There are driving licences and passports which have photos in them, but they are optional, and I may refuse to renew either if other biometrics beyond a photo are included in them. Which means it looks like my passport is not getting renewed in a few years unless our next government backs off the rather Big Brother approach of the current one...

Rgds

Damon

Re:Every ID card?

[derGoldstein]

This is what decades of living in fear will do to a population. The more the citizens are afraid, the more power they give to the government.

Hi, I'm an Israeli. I'm not sure about that last bit about "Why would a government make peace under such circumstances?", since that's a separate and extremely involved issue, but you got it right with the above quote. Most of the people I've talked to didn't even twitch at the mention of the new biometric database. News sources who are pointing to this as a very big exception compared other countries are met with feedback comprising of, mostly, "so what?" (when I say feedback I mean on online news sites, talkbacks and the like).

We're used to armed guards at every publicly accessible building, which includes malls, theaters, larger apartment complexes, and of course any government-run institutions. A big part of the police's job here is patrolling in search of signs of terrorism, not crime. We've sat in too many shelters, heard too many missile alarms go off, and seen too many scorched remains of explosions to give a damn about a photo and a fingerprint.

And yes, the Israeli census has been hacked -- not once, but several times. You can search and find several versions according to the date of retrieval.
Personally, I agree with most of the opinions I've head voiced around me -- who cares? Anyone can find my address, phone number, and family tree through the leaked census. Now they'll have my picture, which they could easily find elsewhere, and my fingerprint, which is something that they'll have of every citizen. If they do use the fingerprint to try to access something, they'll likely need additional information, because it will be *known* that this has become publicly available information.

There's a proverb in some european languages which translates roughly as: "you don't worry about a thief in the backyard when your house in on fire".

Re:Every ID card?

[asaz989]

Well, there's been a mandatory national ID in Israel for at least several decades now, as in countries like Belgium, Estonia, Germany, etc. (It's actually more common than countries like the US that don't require people to have a national ID card)

Re:Every ID card?

[asaz989]

Provides another method for verification of a card's authenticity - you can pass the card through a reader, verify that (a) such a person actually exists, (b) that their information (picture, biometric info) is the same as that on the card, so then when (c) you check that the information on the card matches the appearance and biometric info of the actual person, you can be more sure that it's actually correct. For terrorism problems, this means that a terrorist can't just pay $50 for a fake Israeli ID card (they're notoriously easy to forge) and get through security checkpoints as an Israeli citizen.

Re:Every ID card?

[Quiet_Desperation]

Kudos on the informative mod, prob should be funny thou.

I'm as astonished as everyone else when that happens. :-)

Re:Every ID card?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi, I'm an Israeli. ...

We're used to armed guards at every publicly accessible building, which includes malls, theaters, larger apartment complexes, and of course any government-run institutions. A big part of the police's job here is patrolling in search of signs of terrorism, not crime. We've sat in too many shelters, heard too many missile alarms go off, and seen too many scorched remains of explosions to give a damn about a photo and a fingerprint.
 

Hi.

Your country was founded in part as citizens of a country in Europe were previously used to late night knocks on the door from government soldiers intent on killing anyone of a certain ethnicity, disability, or sexual orientation. The German regime relied extensively on government records, the census, and modern technology to select their victims and make the genocide as "efficient" as possible. ID cards and government records have been used elsewhere to aid criminals, terrorists, and murderers.

In short, you seem to be very comfortable with the collection and storage of very personal details by governments. Once this data is in one place, it can be sold, hacked, or otherwise abused. Historically speaking, the class most likely to use this data for abuse is your government.

What if the Third Reich had a database which included not only the names of Jews, but their fingerprints. How many Jews, gypsies, and others branded "life unworthy of life" would have been caught if border police checked fingerprints against a database? False papers would have been next to impossible. What if hospital records were digitised and held on a government database which could, if desired, be cross referenced against the identity register? How difficult would it have been to pinpoint those "genetic undesirables" then.

Think what Hitler did with early 1930s IBM technology, then imagine how much easier it would be for the Hitler of tomorrow. Mandatory national ID cards? Simple - the arab terrorist in the cafe simply makes everyone produce their ID at gunpoint and shoots those with a Hebrew date of birth....

Why trust any government to that extent with your life? What other information will be recorded en masse and used to aid persecution? It has happened all over the world at various times - to blacks, gays, Jews, the handicapped....

I think you will understand where I am coming from due to your terrorism issue. People will accept a lot to be made safe from an ever present threat of being blown up by a terrorist, but just imagine these modern databases and tools in the hands of your enemies - think how much more difficult it would be to resist and escape an oppressive regime. Should we really develop and promote this technology to make us feel safer, and then allow it to be used by the governments of Iran, North Korea, and China?

Larry Ellison prominently offered to donate Oracle licences to the US government to be used in anti-terrorist databases. Just think what Hitler or Stalin could have done with that technology....

Re:Every ID card?

[Cwix]

Lol cant fault you for your good luck. :-)

Re:Every ID card?

[Anonymous Coward]

"SELECT * from PEOPLE where EYES = 'blue'"

How about SELECT * from CITIZENS where RACE = "jew"
SELECT * from MEN where SEXUALITY = "homosexual"
SELECT * from CITIZENS where AGE > "65"

If Hitler had SQL...

Re:Every ID card?

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck boarding a flight, opening up a bank account, applying for a job, etc

I can't be bothered digging up sources - if you're interested you can find it.

It is a criminal offence to employ a new hire without verifying their right to live and work in the UK - only acceptable forms are government issued photo ID. Fines and prison terms for employers who breach this. Passed under the guise of stopping illegal immigration.

There is rumor of some law requiring photo ID for domestic flights. I've never found the statute for that, and suspect it doesn't exist (even in delegated legislation), but that doesn't stop the airlines insisting contractually, as is their right.

Bank accounts - more laws passed under the guise of preventing money laundering.

I make enough to emigrate when I want, and will do in a few years. Citizenship abroad isn't a problem if you earn enough. There are a few places which are safe, for now. For those on treadmills.....no clear options...

Re:Every ID card?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi, I'm also an Israeli.

This law is "risky, superfluous, and expensive" and your apathy (and the apathy of all others with the same "don't care" attitude around you) saddens me deeply.

The argument Israel never regarded my personal information with care, so who cares if I give it some more to play around with carelessly is a really stupid argument. The premise of that argument should lead you to the opposite conclusion. You should worry more when such a careless regime asks for more power from the citizens instead of passing laws that limit such malpractices.

Did I just say that the "regime asks" for more power? I just made myself laugh. The issue of the ID cards and the central biometric database were never openly on the table, were never debated in any elections and the only coverage in the media was in small Sci/Tech sections for geeks and nerds. Most of the paragraphs in the law were voted for "unanimously" by one person (Meir Sheetrit) who managed and supervised the comity as a self pleasing theater.

Your apathy (and the apathy of those like you) is not a reasonable response to the situation in Israel in any way or form. On the contrary. There are many dangers to the state of Israel, and the outside threats are negligible compared to what the 120 idiots in the Knesset are doing to our democracy for the last decade.

We have the "big brother" digital wiretapping laws (police wire tapping without the need for a court order).
We have the laws that allow the police to receive personal information from wireless/cellphone providers/ISPS. These laws allow the police to maintain self regulated databases with that information (again, with no supervision and no need for court orders that limit access to these databases).
We had more than one proposals of internet censorships and government firewalls (which are currently postponed, but my guess is that it will not be for a very long time. They will be back on the table in no time).
We have the IDF that collects and stores information on all recruits (most of the Jewish citizens) - from psychological evaluations and intelligence tests to health status and biometric info.
Now we have the biometric law and a government that is starting to talk about adding a nationalized ISP that will compete with the two major ones in the private sector.

The conflict is not a separate issue at all. Presto above hit the nail right on the head on that one. There are many historical and political causes to the on going conflict, but the conflict is indeed used cynically by politicians and power groups on both sides of the conflict on the expanse of the populace rights and comfort. The Israeli politicians do indeed use the magic word "security" in order to gain more power over the citizens with an alarming rate in the last few years. The biometric law that just got passed is only one link in the long chain of insane "big brother" laws that got passed here recently.

You don't worry about the thief in your backyard, but you really should be. Especially because your house is not really on fire as much as the politicians want you to think. They really really enjoy you being so apathetic like that.

Re:Every ID card?

[Lunzo]

What is a "biometric visual scan of their face"? A photograph? Every country does that. It's called an ID card. As far as fingerprints, I've had to submit my fingerprints like 10 times for various services, clearances, not to mention immigration documents.

Civilized nations don't do that. My country, Australia has no national ID card. Photo IDs here are either passports or drivers licenses. Passports are national but you only have to show them if traveling overseas. Drivers licenses are issued by each state and there are laws preventing government agencies etc from sharing ID databases.

As for fingerprints I've only had to give them once - in the so called Land of the Free. My flight to Canada touched down in Hawaii to re-fuel and I was forced to go through security theatre TSA screening procedures despite the fact I was in transit the entire time and couldn't have left the airport legally (and my absence on the flight out certainly wouldn't have gone unnoticed).

Re:Every ID card?

[derGoldstein]

I must say that it's been a long while since something made me think and debate my own reasoning as your post did. I've re-written this reply twice already, just trying to get my thoughts (and opinions) in order.

I'll need to address the issues in a different order from the one in which they were brought up:
When I said that the original quote regarding the conflict was "a separate and extremely involved issue", my intention was to completely detach any of my personal opinions about the conflict from the post. I meant to say that the conflict *exists*, and isn't going away any time soon, and so things should indeed be considered within that context.
Because of this, the response from citizens is going to go in two separate directions:
A) I'm tired of trying to live my life only to have it interrupted -- not by accidents -- but by intentional, malicious attacks by fundamentalists and religious zealots. If by erecting the West Bank Barrier lives were saved (and there's not much debate about that), then I'm not that concerned about the inconvenience caused, mostly to the other side. Therefor, in turn, I'm willing to sacrifice some of my freedoms in order to save additional lives (the effectiveness of this *is* debatable, but even the possibility of success is worth the sacrifice).
B) People living in fear will give up quite a bit to whomever offers them hope. In this case, it's a sacrifice of personal freedoms. At some point, however, the life you get after all the sacrifices have been made is an unacceptable compromise. This is a particular sacrifice that is far too fundamental for a free society to make.

I suppose that my mind isn't made up, but the opinion of most of the people around me was "easy enough to accept", and it always seems like there are bigger issues to worry about, so I went with it.

Specific arguments:

Hi, I'm also an Israeli.

This law is "risky, superfluous, and expensive" and your apathy (and the apathy of all others with the same "don't care" attitude around you) saddens me deeply.

The argument Israel never regarded my personal information with care, so who cares if I give it some more to play around with carelessly is a really stupid argument. The premise of that argument should lead you to the opposite conclusion. You should worry more when such a careless regime asks for more power from the citizens instead of passing laws that limit such malpractices.

Logically, this is sound. However there's also a practical aspect -- some of the milk has already been spilled. The census already provides anyone with the information they need to construct a photo database (certainly anyone with government resources, but also private entities). Fingerprints are/will be handled by the same organization that handle the census information, so they probably already have a large piece of the puzzle, they're just filling the rest in. This is, as you say, saddening. But the pragmatic aspect means that since we can't get back the milk that has already been spilled, and the possibility that spilling some more milk will solve some problems, makes for a passable (if depressing) argument.

Did I just say that the "regime asks" for more power? I just made myself laugh. The issue of the ID cards and the central biometric database were never openly on the table, were never debated in any elections and the only coverage in the media was in small Sci/Tech sections for geeks and nerds. Most of the paragraphs in the law were voted for "unanimously" by one person (Meir Sheetrit) who managed and supervised the comity as a self pleasing theater.

True.

Your apathy (and the apathy of those like you) is not a reasonable response to the situation in Israel in any way or form. On the contrary. There are many dangers to the state of Israel, and the outside threats are negligible compared to what the 120 idiots in the Knesset are doing to our democracy for the last decade.

Re:Every ID card?

[derGoldstein]

These are good points. I've just replied to the post above -- see the part about "fatigue". There are countless absurd laws that I think are harmful and have serious ramifications later on, but there's only so much I can do about it, especially when I'm wondering what the next threat will be, who it will involve, and recently -- where my paycheck will come from.

It's Maslow's hierarchy of needs: breathe and eat first, ask questions later...

Re:Every ID card?

[Eli Gottlieb]

I gotta say, achi, you're dead right. Israel really ought to have separate Knessot for security and for domestic policy, because the country winds up going to elections based on only one thing at a time and then finding the Knesset and the government acting like ridiculous idiots or even malicious towards the Israeli population in the domain they never really stood up about during the campaigns.

Re:Every ID card?

[VShael]

There's a proverb in some european languages which translates roughly as: "you don't worry about a thief in the backyard when your house in on fire".

Very true. But a neighbour may worry about both the thief in his neighbours yard, and the fact that his neighbours house is on fire.

This massive biometric database sets a bad precedent which will no doubt be followed by other countries, who will point to Israel and say "See? No one in Israel is complaining about it."

Sometimes, I think all of our countries are in a race to the bottom.

Re:Every ID card?

[Anonymous Coward]

"We've already seen the japanese immigration fingerprint system publicly exploited with no insider help, twice in the last year."

Err, have we? I certainly haven't seen any such news from Japan in the last year and a little googling gets nothing. I'm not saying you're making it up, but I think it seems unlikely.

Got a link?

Re:Every ID card?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/01/02/woman-uses-tape-to-trick-biometric-airport-fingerprint-scan/

and the other one was just posted here on slashdot a few days ago - the woman switched prints from left to right hand

Re:Every ID card?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, thanks. If the Korean got thru ok, as the story says, how did they find out? The story doesn't say. Perhaps she did something else wrong after she had entered the country, e.g. working without a permit, and that's when they stopped her and found out her true id and background.

Re:Every ID card?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Irrelevant to my point. Please do your own research. That is far from the only article on the topic.

What could possibly go wrong?

[Richard W.M. Jones]

All citizens of a country which isn't exactly liked by its neighbours are placed on a single database. Database leaks. Any future authority which doesn't like Israelis for any reason can now reliably identify them at crossing points, when travelling, after an invasion, etc.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[poetmatt]

In case you're wondering, this isn't a whole lot different than a driver's license database. There are *some*, but the wording is slashdot hype here.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[SharpFang]

Just imagine if IIWW started now.
The database would be the first thing Nazis would get.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

if no WWII there would be Israel. before WWII the majority of the jewish people lived in europe.
Then they decided to go back home and and evacuate the Palestinians who were living rent free.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[nefertitian]

All citizens of a country which isn't exactly liked by its neighbours are placed on a single database. Database leaks. Any future authority which doesn't like Israelis for any reason can now reliably identify them at crossing points, when travelling, after an invasion, etc.

it works both ways. it can also provide fairly reliable and faster identification mechanisms in times and places such as that of of invasion, when travelling, at check points etc. when you are trying to separate the 'suspects' from the rest of the crowds. It's easier to take papers than a biometric scan.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Darktan]

Just imagine if IIWW started now. The database would be the first thing Nazis would get.

Is that World War II run backwards? Starts with an atomic bomb and ends with a retreat from Poland?

We can do it!

[Quiet_Desperation]

We can construct a topic that will generate the lowest signal to noise ratio EVER! Proceed, gentlemen, proceed!

Re:We can do it!

[maxume]

Nowhere in the summary does it mention either Bush or Obama, so probably not.

Re:We can do it!

[L4t3r4lu5]

Can I please get a car analogy?

Re:We can do it!

[ground.zero.612]

We can construct a topic that will generate the lowest signal to noise ratio EVER! Proceed, gentlemen, proceed!

I think someone already beat us to market: xkcd.com

Re:We can do it!

[Quiet_Desperation]

Now, now! We want controversy, not a singularity.

Re:We can do it!

[derGoldstein]

There's no iPhone in the title. Everybody knows that if you want noise then you *must* include an "iphone", preferably twice. Also, if you want to remain competetive, using "privacy" is advisable.

Re:We can do it!

[Eli Gottlieb]

Have you not noticed that hundreds of extremely cantankerous Anonymous Cowards suddenly want to debate Palestinian rights whenever a story about Israel shows up on Slashdot? We could have "Windows 8 Beta Defaults to Hebrew by Accident" due to the efforts of the Israeli Microsoft branch, and someone would mod up jackasses trying to debate whether or not to have an Israel.

Old news

[Anonymous Coward]

Biometric passports are established throughout Europe since years back. Biometric passports are absurd if there is no central database where your biometric facial information is stored.

Although the fingerprints is a new one.

Re:Old news

[VShael]

"Biometric passports are established throughout Europe since years back."

As an Irish citizen currently living in Belgium, I have to say I don't think this is true. I don't know a single person in either country with a biometric passport.

Re:Old news

[Anonymous Coward]

The European "biometric" is just your passport photo computerised.

Re:Old news

[ovanklot]

You don't need a central database to have biometric passports/id cards. All you need is to store their hashes on the card and that would be compared to the person in question.
This is the only thing required of a biometric card.

Re:Old news

[Anonymous Coward]

You can infer the usage of biometrics from the unavailability of longer term passports such as a ten year one.

Re:Old news

[Anonymous Coward]

"Biometric passports are established throughout Europe since years back."

As an Irish citizen currently living in Belgium, I have to say I don't think this is true. I don't know a single person in either country with a biometric passport.

As an Italian citizen currently living in Italy, I can confirm the former is not true. . I don't know a single person in either country with a biometric passport.

Re:Old news

[ionix5891]

wait till you have to renew your Irish passport

the new ones are biometric and contain an RFID chip, btw you are not allowed into US with an old Irish passport that doesnt contain the above

i just got pictures done for new passport

also the Garda Immigration Green Cards are plastic credit card size ID cards that contain fingerprints + photo for all non EU immigrants here in Ireland

Re:Old news

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a dual citizen: Sweden and Finland, both in EU. The procedure varies between these countries.

To get a Swedish passport/id/drivers's licence(?) you have to stand in a strange pose, in a weird machine (multiple cameras?), with your hands on special surfaces and have your fingerprints taken and your face measured for automated face recognition software. You cannot resist the system since you need a bank account to get your salary paid, and banks are not allowed to open accounts without a proper id.

The information from that scan + fingerprints are stored ON the Swedish passport, so anybody who checks your passport gets a copy of your prints and biometric scan. Great.

For my Finnish passport, I only had to submit a photo I could take myself... (I've heard that they recently had to include fingerprints too - because of EU rules).

Re:Old news

[Anonymous Coward]

New Irish passports are biometric - I got mine in 2008 and it wasn't optional.

Re:Old news

[molecular]

in germany, you can't get a new one without it.
Otto Schily received a lifetime bigbrother award in 2005 for introducing the biometric passport in germany.

Re:Old news

[whathappenedtomonday]

That's only half the story: shortly after his time as minister of the interior, he joined the board of directors of SAFE ID Solutions AG, a company specializing in - you guessed it - "integrated security solutions to the global ID market with systems optimized for new generation electronic documents".

Re:Old news

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

That's only half the story: shortly after his time as minister of the interior, he joined the board of directors of SAFE ID Solutions AG, a company specializing in - you guessed it - "integrated security solutions to the global ID market with systems optimized for new generation electronic documents".

I dunno if you were modded funny on purpose or as a typo - but what you wrote is completely true.

Re:Old news

[Anonymous Coward]

O RLY?

Mine also has a little chip in it and I've had it since July 2007

Re:Old news

[whathappenedtomonday]

Well, if it weren't so sad, it would actually be kind of funny, I guess. The profiteers are certainly laughing their asses off, like "Gazprom Schröder" (former German Chancellor, details here, older article), the most prominent example of corruption, bribery and corporatism.

Re:Old news

[dunkelfalke]

Not ony photo, also the fingerprints.

Ironic

[DoofusOfDeath]

I wonder if the next step will be to require Palestinians to were a yellow star-and-moon on their clothes.

Re:Ironic

[DoofusOfDeath]

FWIW, I don't think your post deserved the "Troll" rating. Your question was fair.

Re:Ironic

[molecular]

how is this flamebait?

Re:Ironic

[mister_playboy]

This post is not offtopic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbols_of_Islam#Green

Evil?

[EMG at MU]

In the USA the local police department usually sponsors a fingerprint drive where elementary age kids get a coloring book or something for surrendering their fingerprints. Those records are kept in a central location. Moreover, to get any job with a state or federal employer, you must submit to digital fingerprinting. To get a drivers license you get your picture taken. All those biometrics are stored in a central location. Israel is just being smart about it and storing everything in a digital format. Less secure, maybe, but way easier to search through than a pile of papers in some filing cabinet.

So its really not that bad, unless you really want to live off the grid or something.

Re:Evil?

[sconeu]

What central location?

We did that for our kids.

The central location? The file cabinet in my home office. They only made one fingerprint card per kid, which they gave to us.
Remember, this was in the early '90s, at the tail end of the child abduction hysteria (yeah, it's still around but not as strong).

We were told to keep the card, and put a small clip of the kids' hair into a mini-ziploc, and store it with the card.

Re:Evil?

[selven]

Just because something is already done doesn't make it acceptable. Political corruption is the norm, but you don't see people not affected by it supporting it.

Re:Evil?

[cdrguru]

No, for the most part you see people affected by political corruption supporting it. Every time you submit to any bureaucratic nonsense in a US State, like getting a driver's license, you are contributing to political corruption.

Ohio is one of my favorite examples. You need to pay (bribe) state legislators to be designated as a representative of the state so that you can pass out license plates and such. The job comes with some title like Deputy Bursar or some such - but it is by political appointment and very, very lucrative.

You don't have any choice in the matter, really. You want license plates for your car, because if you don't get them you will be endlessly harrassed by the police. So you go and get them and the money you pay funds the bribe to keep that office in business for the next year.

For the most part, everyone is contributing to political corruption. It is a requirement that they do so. It is part of the corrupt system itself.

Re:Evil?

[Myopic]

Yeah, I mostly agree with that. In a country like the US, though, it's difficult to come up with laws which are appropriate for the general population as well as the people who want to live off the grid, and those are important people to keep around. Israel is dealing with different constraints.

The Uzi aimed at you identifies them too.

[crovira]

The only reason for not being identifiable is because you're dead. Lets make identifying the remains easier.

The rest is conjecture and lies people tell each other.

Personally, I'd like to have offensive weapons keyed into the biometrics of the person they're meant for so they wouldn't kill me. A smart gun that would only shoot the person its supposed to.

Re:The Uzi aimed at you identifies them too.

[Anonymous Coward]

The only reason for not being identifiable is because you're dead. Lets make identifying the remains easier. The rest is conjecture and lies people tell each other.

That would be a valid point to support a DNA database, but not so much for a biometric database of faces and fingerprints. Ordinary shootings leave an easily identifiable corpse, perhaps with personal ID intact, so the database as described would not be crucial in most of those cases. Suicide bombings tend to scatter parts other than faces/fingers all over the place, parts which still need to be identified. Further, bombs disfigure faces and damage skulls, making such a database even less useful for post-mortem identification.

Personally, I'd like to have offensive weapons keyed into the biometrics of the person they're meant for so they wouldn't kill me. A smart gun that would only shoot the person its supposed to.

It's hard to conceive of many non-contrived cases where this would be practical, not without science fiction technology. Do you imagine soldiers/police who are incapable of poor marksmanship? Since the database will contain only faces & fingerprints, the entire military could fall to aggressors well-supplied with masks & gloves. I'm also wondering how to design a politely discriminating fragmentation grenade...

Hmmm, a low 5-digit UID. I'd like one, too - where did you buy yours?

- T

Ironic

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn who told you? You must have terrorist associations and will be collected in time for the train departing the station.

A Great Idea

[iviagnus]

Every human being on the planet should be fingerprinted, retinal scanned and DNA sampled. If they've nothing to hide why should they object? Only scumbags with something to hide would want to remain in the shadows. Also, only those who have served their country in the military should have citizenship status and get the priviledges that offers (business and home ownership, drivers license, social security at retirement, etc). And automobiles should be required to have an alcohol detector so that they cannot be started if the driver has been drinking.

Re:A Great Idea

[JustNiz]

Why did you stop there? lets have the government tell us when we can meet our friends, what we must eat, what music we must listen to. Lets also burn any books with dangerous ideas in. Lets remove the word 'freedom' from the language and make it illegal to say it, that way people wont get dangerous ideas.

Re:A Great Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Every human being on the planet should be fingerprinted, retinal scanned and DNA sampled. If they've nothing to hide why should they object? Only scumbags with something to hide would want to remain in the shadows. Also, only those who have served their country in the military should have citizenship status and get the priviledges that offers (business and home ownership, drivers license, social security at retirement, etc). And automobiles should be required to have an alcohol detector so that they cannot be started if the driver has been drinking.

I really hope you're joking, and if you aren't then you are a complete moron.

Re:A Great Idea

[Nathrael]

I think somebody's sarcasm detector is broken...

Re:A Great Idea

[BlackSnake112]

Then we need an astronaut to be sent into deep space and frozen only to be returned to Earth 500 years later...

Re:A Great Idea

[adonoman]

No, no.. you don't remove the word "freedom", you just slowly redefine it, so that being free means getting to vote for your government (provided it's for one of two identical parties), being able to say what you want (just so long as you don't say anyone that might offend any race, gender, sexual orientation, or disparage the troops), being able to go wherever you want (provided you carry enough documentation for the government to track your every move), being able to work where you want (so long as its for one of a decreasing number of giant corporate conglomerations)... That's REAL freedom!

When I was born

[JerryLove]

When I was born, my foot prints were put on the birth certificate, which is on file, for identification (my social security card validates against it). When I got my state ID, that had my picture. When I got my SBU clearance, my fingerprints and photo went on record.

It seems to me that the line in question is fictitious. The only question is the efficiency of the ID method, and the security of the database.

Re:When I was born

[BobMcD]

...and the need to centralize it.

Having to go to the agency in question and file a request adds a barrier to the data that hopefully means it is only accessed when it is actually required. Having it all 'at your fingertips' means lots of unnecessary and/or unwanted access, at least potentially.

Re:When I was born

[binary paladin]

The most disturbing thing about all this is how readily people in the "civilized" world continue to simply submit to this sort of nonsense and view it as an acceptable part of living.

Why?

[findoutmoretoday]

I am curious why they approved it, felt the need, etc. .  And most probably I won't like the answer. 

Re:Why?

[Myopic]

I don't know if you are Israeli, but keep in mind that Israel is dealing with vastly different constraints and parameters than the USA is. They are tiny, non-federal, surrounded by hostility, under constant thread of annihilation, less heterogeneous, less rural. Just because privacy lines are drawn at a certain legal point in Israel doesn't mean the same legal point would be appropriate in the USA.

The only thing evil

[thelonious]

...about biometric data is when people convince themselves that they now have a tamper proof system.

Self UN-Fulfilling (MotB) prophecy!

[starglider29a]

In 1994, a card-carrying skeptic told me that any "Mark of the Beast" (MotB) technology would NEVER come to pass because of the outcry that it was MotB Technology. His logic was that since everyone could see the prophecy of this type of people-control technology, including a unique database identity key and other well-known (now) DBA actions, that people would RESIST the fulfillment of the prophecy. Thus, the prophecy would be annulled by the fact that it was foreknown by a casual reader.

Ok, so... Where is it? Where is the outcry? With the potential for abuse reaching BIBLICAL proportions, who is resisting? The Wacko Christian Right (Of which you would consider me). It seems that the prophecy which this parallels would (if fulfilled) impact the Israelis the most. So, why are they doing it? Peace and Security? Oh, that's in the prophecy as well.

Look, I'm not saying this is Revelation 13:18 per se. It could be, it could NOT be. Who can know? IF IT IS... where is the outcry? All of us database/hAx0r/geek types can see this is a "bad" idea in and of its own merits. But if you tack on the potential to fulfill the best known end-times/Antichrist prophecy, shouldn't the world be shuddering in its collective shoes?

Are we?

Re:Self UN-Fulfilling (MotB) prophecy!

[gtall]

Uh, you may have noticed that the country is Israel and, well, y'know, most of the Israelis are Jews and Muslims, very few whacko Christians except among the tourists.

Re:Self UN-Fulfilling (MotB) prophecy!

[VShael]

One possible answer to your question, is that there is no shortage of people who genuinely want to live in the "end times". There are several reasons why this is so, but I tend to think it's because their faith is particularly weak, and a big visible Revelations style conflict would go a long way to strengthening their faith.

Now, I'm not saying that you're one of these nuts. But if you move in "Wacko Christian Right" circles (your phrase, not mine) then it's possible you've met some people who think like this.

A representative sampling can be found in the collected posts of fundamentalists, which can be found at www.fstdt.com
  (e.g. Quote# 67376)

Re:Self UN-Fulfilling (MotB) prophecy!

[starglider29a]

But if you move in "Wacko Christian Right" circles (your phrase, not mine)

I moved out of those circles, but I still visit once in a while. The food is tasty!

I'm sure you are correct for a portion of the populace of faith who "want to live in the end times".

But I think an overwhelming preponderance is that they/we perceive that many of the element necessary to fulfill an "end times" are in place. Conversely, the elements in place are not sustainable, and anything which is not sustainable eventually ends. Who was the Great Prophet who said "Everything that has a beginning has an end." Oh, wait, that was one of the Matrix movies. sorry :">

This biometric database, be it MotB or not, is similar to what end timers expect. And they may be right. Time will tell, only too late.

Re:Self UN-Fulfilling (MotB) prophecy!

[Wyatt Earp]

About 2% Christian and 1.7% Druze in Israel, most of the Christians are Christian Palestinians. And remember that alot of Israeli Jews are non-religious, those are the folks I lived with over there.

'27% are "non-religious traditionalists" (only partly respecting the Jewish Halakha), and 43% are "secular"'

Re:Self UN-Fulfilling (MotB) prophecy!

[Myopic]

Okay, first let's dispense with the concept of "prophecy". You say "I'm not saying this is Revelation 13:18 per se. It could be, it could NOT be. Who can know?" It's not, and we can all know, because there is no such thing as prophecy, because there is no such thing as magic.

Okay, now what there is, is prediction, especially insightful and informed prediction. It's hardly difficult to predict some things that will happen in the future, and the fact that thousands of years ago somebody said something about having marks on the forehead to engage in commerce was a reasonable prediction. Of course, it never came to pass, and still won't, because we're not considering putting marks on foreheads, we're considering photographing people and keeping records. Many good people would resist both marks on the forehead as well as biometric ID cards.

For informed context, look back over history and decide if these times look more like the end times than other times such as the black plague or WW2. There were crazyass people saying those were the end times, too; but they were not, in fact, the end times, because, in fact, there is no such thing. But, you can still oppose biometric ID cards if you want, nothing wrong with that.

Re:Self UN-Fulfilling (MotB) prophecy!

[Anonymous Coward]

The wacko Christian Right is totally stoked - the sooner the Jews get around to all collecting in Israel and dying, the sooner Jeebus will return!

The rest of us are too busy snickering into our sleeves at people like this guy:

http://home.flash.net/~evt/rapture.htm

(who, according to the Wayback Machine, has been moving the "Rapture goalpost" for upwards of a year, every time the date passes...) to actually refute the complete nonsense that passes for "Christian prophecy".

You really must forgive Israel...

[TrebleJunkie]

... for you see, Revelations isn't a chapter in the Torah.

Different country, different tradeoffs

[Anonymous Coward]

Every country strikes its between the privacy of its citizens and the security of its citizens. In Israel, due to its circumstances, the balance is more heavily tilted toward security over privacy. In every country of which I am aware, military service involves sacrificing some level of freedom and privacy. In Israel, almost every non-Arab citizen of the country serves in the army, and of course that service requires photographs, fingerprints, DNA sampling, etc. already. So this is not much different than status quo in Israel, and I would not call it "evil."

Re:Different country, different tradeoffs

[mpe]

Every country strikes its between the privacy of its citizens and the security of its citizens.

This argument is very much a false dichotomy. Things which erode privacy may have little or no effect on security, even decrease. Things which affect secuirty need have nothing to do with privacy.

Godwin in 3... 2... 1...

[Anonymous Coward]

So much for "never again".

Godwin's Law?

[Comatose51]

There's a bit of irony here because a little man in Germany fifty years ago did something very similar in categorizing and identifying Jews. It was not benign.

Re:Godwin's Law?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't remember that. What happened in Germany in 1959?

Re:Godwin's Law?

[MiniMike]

a little man in Germany fifty years ago did something very similar

You're posting from 1987? And not claiming first post?

Since you have 22 years to think about it, please elaborate on how signing people up for drivers licenses and passports is similar to burning and looting their property, murdering them in the streets, and then rounding up the rest and sending them to concentration camps? I don't think that's what the Israeli government plans. If you don't like biometric databases that's fine, but at least add something intelligent to the discussion.

Re:Godwin's Law?

[Colonel Korn]

a little man in Germany fifty years ago did something very similar

You're posting from 1987? And not claiming first post?

Since you have 22 years to think about it, please elaborate on how signing people up for drivers licenses and passports is similar to burning and looting their property, murdering them in the streets, and then rounding up the rest and sending them to concentration camps? I don't think that's what the Israeli government plans. If you don't like biometric databases that's fine, but at least add something intelligent to the discussion.

Good point. The funny thing is that if we consider the greater context, that's pretty much exactly what that particular government does to a certain segment of the population.

Re:Godwin's Law?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a pity there's no -1, Ignorant on slashdot. You have earned it.

Re:Godwin's Law?

[furball]

This database isn't a database of Jews. This is a database of Israeli citizens. Some of whom are actually Arabs.

Re:Godwin's Law?

[Myopic]

Yes! And Hitler was also elected in a democracy -- SO WE MUST DO AWAY WITH ALL DEMOCRACY!

Re:Godwin's Law?

[WNight]

What government ever has other plans for the people who it forces to be IDed?

Universal health care and education don't require IDs, separating out dissidents does.

Are you sure you're nobody's Tutsi, Hutu, Jew, Palestinian, Commie, Capitalist, Intellectual, copyright violator, etc? It's a big world and people are creative when drawing lines.

Re:Godwin's Law?

[binary paladin]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Democracy is in no way synonymous with a free society and frankly has been historically antithetical to liberty where it's practiced. So, I'm with you there.

Re:Godwin's Law?

[derGoldstein]

You're posting from 1987? And not claiming first post?

Since you have 22 years to think about it, please elaborate on how signing people up for drivers licenses and passports is similar to burning and looting their property, murdering them in the streets, and then rounding up the rest and sending them to concentration camps? I don't think that's what the Israeli government plans. If you don't like biometric databases that's fine, but at least add something intelligent to the discussion.

Good point. The funny thing is that if we consider the greater context, that's pretty much exactly what that particular government does to a certain segment of the population.

Surely you could be more explicit. What is the greater context? Which is the particular government? What is the certain segment of the population?

As long as we're being vague, I hear that some /. poster's mom had a particular type of relation with many other people, for a certain amount of currency.

Re:Godwin's Law?

[derGoldstein]

I'd just like to append this link to your post. Also note that "Jewish" refers to both a religion and an ethnicity, which makes it a big problem to determine religious affiliation accurately.

Re:Godwin's Law?

[moxley]

Exactly, and unfortunately that's only one of many ironies that exist between things the NSDAP german government did and the actions of the Israeli government.

Israel has drifted even further into fascism than the US has - of course, the powers that be there don't like criticism and and tend to try to stifle any criticism on their dreadful human rights record and severe violations of international law by suggesting that any mention of any of the above is anti-semitism; when in fact - all that argument points out is that the person making it is either a total idiot that doesn't know the difference between a race/religion and a country (or political movement if zionism is the point in question), OR they are purposefully using the anti-semitism argument as a tool to stop all debate. Luckily, people are wise to this now.

So my point is that I think it's absolutely a bad idea for the people of Israel, and that, while no government is beyond misuse of such a tool (especially these days) the Israeli government is one of the last ones I would trust with such a resource.

Re:Godwin's Law?

[Eli Gottlieb]

Yeah, except that if the Israeli government tried to round up just about anyone (possibly including themselves, inshallah), they'd find the IDF and Mishtarat Yisrael ("Israel Police") in open revolt against them. They can't even manage to occupy the territories or dismantle settlements nowadays without some wingnut soldier putting himself in jail for insubordination, so what makes you think they could go full Godwin and people would let them get away with it?

Re:Godwin's Law?

[Myopic]

Hmmm. Interesting. So your theory (democracy is antithetical to liberty) should mean that democracies have fewer liberties than non-democracies. Do you think that is the case? I'm not a scholar of historical governance so I can't really say.

Re:Godwin's Law?

[binary paladin]

The problem is that "democracy" isn't anymore inherently nurturing of liberty than any other -cracy or -archy or -ism. "Democracy" is a method in and of itself and nothing more.

Intelligent people who care about their community are the exception, not the rule. Responsible people who know jack shit about their government and their elected officials are the exception, not the rule. Is a government where people who can be swayed by 30-second blurbs on whether the asshole on TV has a nice smile or not really conducive to freedom? Freedom be damned! I just want me free health care! It's my right!

Seriously, would you rather live in a democracy or under a benevolent monarch who genuinely loved his people? Do most of us around here think design or decision by committee produces the best results?

Then there's the argument as to what a democracy is vs. a democratic republic/monarchy/oligarchy/whatever.

"Antithetical to liberty" was probably harsh on my part. I should have simply stated that democracy in and of itself has nothing to do with liberty. If a majority has the power to vote away from you some fundamental right they don't care about but you, in the minority, do, is it really a "free" society? No. Your master just happens to be the uneducated, fat, lazy and ignorant majority rather than some guy with a crown.

I believe everyone should have the OPPORTUNITY to vote. However, I believe there should be a system in place that makes sure a person actually knows their ass from a hold in the ground. For instance, I don't believe in random jury pools. I believe you should have to specifically register to be in the jury pool and you shouldn't be able to vote until you've done so. (Incidentally, taking a civics class that explains the historical significance of juries and, more importantly, jury nullification should be part of registration.)

Does letting "Joe Sixpack" vote do good for society? We don't let "Joe Sixpack" design our cars, build our computers, represent us in court or do open heart surgery on us. Why then do we let him make decisions about who is best to govern the populace with no experience?

There is more to a free society than voting. Much more. Juries and grand juries, for instance, are also a bulwark against tyranny (I'd argue moreso than the voters when practiced properly). However, they can be easily neutralized by injecting a bunch of disinterested sheep into them, just like juries.

Blah. Now I'm just carrying on.

Re:Godwin's Law?

[Myopic]

Good rant. I don't agree with the sentiment, but also don't want to argue. I'll leave you with just one thought, which is that in a democracy, Joe Sixpack doesn't make decisions, he participates in decisions in a tiny way. Part of the theory of democracy is that decisions of governance will be, on average, better when coming from a multitude of voices. There are obvious drawbacks both in theory and in reality, but democracy doesn't have to be perfect, it only has to be better than the alternative.

Re:Godwin's Law?

[Anonymous Coward]

I always knew Adenauer was up to no good!

The Israeli census

[Fuzzzy]

The Israeli census is freely available everywhere... It's a shame that the same people who are in charged for the census fiasco, are those are will be in charged for securing the biometric database.

Why "evil"?

[mi]

I, for one, fail to see how this is anything but evil.

We may argue, whether this will work or not, but why is it "evil"? Is it the fear, the impersonators will now be ripping faces off people to pretend to be them?

Re:Why "evil"?

[shutdown -p now]

Same thoughts here. Your face is already effectively "public" - it's very easy to obtain and store, without you knowing. Fingerprints are only slightly more difficult (not to obtain, but to match with the person). If anyone wants such a database, they can have it already. In fact, I would be extremely surprised if special services of most industrial countries didn't have such databases already, with coverage way above 50% in the First World. If they don't, I dare say they aren't doing their job.

Making this public changes nothing except for making it at least somewhat controllable: if people know about its existence and people responsible for it, politicians can campaign for expanding/restricting its use etc, and people get to vote on that too.

Re:Why "evil"?

[swordgeek]

All citizens must be known to the government at all times.
This leads to all citizens must be forced to carry identification at all times. Biometrics is a short-circuit around forcing people to carry ID papers 24/7. At present, I can walk out of the house without my wallet, and nobody can identify me without my permission. Not so with biometrics.

More to the point, it's a way of monitoring the populace. It assumes that everyone is a latent criminal, and needs to be watched.

And hey--what if they decide that racial group 'x' needs to be wiped out? They've got the data from face scans, they just need to send out the troops.

Re:Why "evil"?

[mi]

This leads to all citizens must be forced to carry identification at all times. Biometrics is a short-circuit around forcing people to carry ID papers 24/7.

The problem with people being forced to carry papers with them is not in that it gives the government a way to identify them, but in the sheer inconvenience of that requirement. It also allows for the government abuse — currently people on-bail are asked (by the Judiciary) to surrender their passports to make their fleeing abroad harder, for example. If papers were needed 24/7, it would've become possible (even for the Executive) to impose much harsher restrictions.

Neither of these problems exist with biometrics — you carry your face and retina with you at all times, and they can not be easily taken away from you (or not renewed as the Executive likes to do with various licenses).

At present, I can walk out of the house without my wallet, and nobody can identify me without my permission. Not so with biometrics.

In a really large city, maybe. Even there, your local cop(s) know you quite well: they recognize your face, even if they don't know your name. And if they ever saw you getting into a car, they can learn quite a bit more... In smaller communities — and especially in Israel, where community-culture is quite different from America's — you are known very well already: not only your name, but what you spent on your house, and what breed your cat is.

We Will Fight This!

[ovanklot]

There's been a long struggle against this biometric database and we may have lost the battle, but we will win the war. There are still ways to bury this database and all will be pursued, whether they're appealing to the Israeli High Court of Justice (Bagatz), convincing the Ministry of Treasury to keep it outside the budget (It is estimated at over US$100,000,000 to implement), etc.

The law was introduced by MK Shirtrit who I personally suspect has ulterior motives for his overzealous support of the bill and the way he rallied both the coalition and opposition to the cause. The finger has already been pointed at lobbyists from Hewlett Packard. The government bowed to pressure and shady deals were made - we knew it was going to be passed even before they started deliberating.

There's only one finger that I'll be showing MK Shitrit and his biometric database.

Why so serious ?

[CharlyFoxtrot]

What happens when the system is compromised? How do I change my password?

Well, you look nervous. Is it the scars? You want to know how I got 'em?

Picture being taken for a drivers license

[Stan92057]

Scan of face = Picture being taken for a drivers license,doesn't every state in the USA require a picture in the drivers license? Finger printing? don't we all get foot printed when were born. Why is this a shock to anyone?

Let's Make Our Own Database

[IronSilk]

I propose we create the Human Citizenship Database, an open-source identification system that lets anyone identify themselves, and identifies every person as a person independently of their government.

People could register themselves and their property in countries where personhood and property are not always well-respected, for instance, Zimbabwe, Cameroon and the USA.

Re:Let's Make Our Own Database

[Myopic]

I don't know much about this project, but:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipeople

Re:Let's Make Our Own Database

[intheshelter]

Are you serious? I propose you piss off with your proposal!

Wrong !! Its voluntary (for now)

[verbation]

It was meant to be compulsory, but because of public outrage, it's only voluntary for the next 2 years, then it will be re-discussed. Thats how democracies work. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=biometric&itemNo=1133498

Re:Wrong !! Its voluntary (for now)

[mishehu]

Indeed, and you can bet your ass I'll be opting-out next of any place that I have citizenship with. As it is, I just read yesterday about some 27 year old Chinese lady who was screwing up her own fingerprints (transplanting them from finger to finger) in order to try to fool Japanese biometric border scanners... Obviously these biometrics can be fooled. Next we'll be doing like in Space Quest 6 where Roger Wilco takes his robot pal's eyeball to fool the retinal scanner in the shuttle. My fear is that if your biometrics information is compromised, how do you actually prove that you are who you claim to be?

Re:Wrong !! Its voluntary (for now)

[Anonymous Coward]

It is compulsory for all now. After public protests, all Zionists will be allowed to opt out.

Slashdot "Hype"

[pavon]

You are right, it is only a step beyond a driver's license database - which is a bad idea to begin with. When the US introduced a national driver's license database with the REAL ID Act, the reaction here was just as negative, so don't pretend that we are being hypocritical.

Speaking of which, starting January first I have to get a passport to travel within the US (by plane), because my state has not yet met the requirements of the REAL ID Act (and good for them even if it was for the wrong reasons). If the federal government is going to act like fascists I'd prefer they do it out in the open.

Re:Slashdot "Hype"

[poetmatt]

Real ID was stupid, and was also not the same as the driver's license database which we already had for years. So I don't know where you're coming from on all that.

Re:Slashdot "Hype"

[cayenne8]

"When the US introduced a national driver's license database with the REAL ID Act, the reaction here was just as negative, so don't pretend that we are being hypocritical."

RealID was a horrible idea, many states refused to do it...it is dead in the water as far as I can tell.

We still do not have a National ID in the US at this time.

Re:Slashdot "Hype"

[pavon]

RealID was a horrible idea, many states refused to do it...it is dead in the water as far as I can tell.

Nope, it was passed into law. All the states requested an extension, so the deadline for implementation was pushed back to the end of March 2008 and then again to the end of December 2009. Since then, 20 states have become compliant, 14 have passed legislation prohibiting their DMV departments from complying, and the remaining 16 are somewhere in between. The DHS has offered the 30 non-compliant states an extension till May 2011 provided they implement a certain number of the requirements. If they don't, then all the residents of those states will have need a passport to fly starting January 1st. I do have to wonder the DHS would really risk implementing this during holiday travels, but that is the plan as of now.

I got this info from our state's Real ID FAQ(PDF) - it is probably on Wikipedia as well.

Re:Slashdot "Hype"

[cayenne8]

Hmm...interesting.

I'd also heard that since so many states have opted 'out', I think CA was one of them...the current administration was thinking of trying to make some changes to make it more palatable.

Personally, I hope they can the whole damned thing...what are they going to do, really ban people from entire states for not having a real id drivers license?

Problem with face

[Anonymous Coward]

What if I have a problem with my face...

Parent rather insightful

[NoYob]

Consider this - for those of you modded parent "Troll" or "Funny":

Bin Laden, is what Donald Trump calls "a member of the lucky sperm club" (Trump himself is a member) - someone who was born into a very rich family. Now, I don't know about you folks, but if I were born into a rich family I'd get into the family business, become a full-time Linux hacker, do charity work - like help Palesinians maybe?, or even try being a jet set playboy. NOT killing civilians to get the Satan out of the Holy Land.

Bin Laden is so full of hate that he can't think clearly - he's basically insane with rage. He could have channeled that into a productive rage - use his resources to show American and Israeli injustices towards the Palestinians and Arab injustices towards the Palestinians. He could have been the World's greatest peaceful champion of Islam and shown the World what Islam is about.

But he didn't.

He turned to violence and hate.

The US turned him into that one might say. I'd like to point out that he's a grown man and can think for himself. Blaming the US is complete horseshit.

Re:Parent rather insightful

[furball]

For a guy who can't think clearly his campaign of terror is a masterwork of insurgency we have a problem defeating.

Re:Parent rather insightful

[Eli Gottlieb]

Not really; it's just a brand-name adopted by a successful independent insurgency for prestige.

(West) Germany, 50 years ago

[BancBoy]

I don't remember that. What happened in Germany in 1959?

Tom Dooley, by the Kingston Trio, was the number one hit in Germany for 12 weeks! I thought everyone knew this. It was in all the papers at the time...

Benefits of this

[Anonymous Coward]

With all the paranoid words put up you would think that the whole audience is hooked on cocaine.
If anyone has ever walked through airport security by scanning a fingerprint while watching people wait hours on line to check passports they would see that there is at least some benefit for this.

Big deal ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost every citizen in Israel has served in the army, where more than just face and fingerprints are scanned.
I'm sure this information is kept "confidential and safe".

IT is not required (yet)

[yariv]

I know it's /. and it's not common that people actually read the article, but it is not required. The law creates the basis for a voluntary database, as a test, and in two years the subject will be checked again. At this stage only citizens that wish to get documents containing biometric data will have to join the database, and the ministry of interior will still provide the standard documents as well.
I definitely won't join the database, as it will definitely leak (just like anything else from our ministry of interior, and I hope it will become public in the next 2 years, as it will probably mean they will drop the idea (and the DB). The whole thing is fairly stupid, the people pushing for it claiming they do it to make documents forgery harder (well, they say "impossible"), but then a simple signed card with the biometric data and formal identity will do, no need for a centralized database...

Stick with the facts,,,, not the hate.

[chris44larsen]

people, 95% of the comments on this topic so far are based on bias and hate. there are no facts, only conjecture. knock it off.

I think it is pretty odius, but

[Anonymous Coward]

The culture may be a little bit more receptive to it, seeing how "numbering" the citizens occurred throughout the bible (at least the Torah).

Spoof

[DarthVain]

Seeing as there was already an article today of a Japanese women changing her fingerprints and the fact that it has been proven that you can fool facial recognition simply by putting a picture in front of the camera, both of these biometrics are spoofed pretty easily.

If on the other hand you have a finger print DB and require photo identification like most countries, I don't see this as a big deal. How is this any different than what the US or Canada or any number of countries have been doing for decades. I remember getting finger printed when I was in elementary school, I am sure that is on file now, and I get my photo done on a driver's licence every 5 years.

Sure one is mandatory where the other are voluntary (I am pretty sure the finger printing was done my a RCMP program that was voluntary to protect the children from being kidnapt or running away and getting lost or some such thing).

However it is hardly voluntary if I was 5 year old, and many would consider having a drivers licence a required part of living or at least having a job, though you might get by in an urban city.

Revelations isn't a chapter in the Torah

[Weezul]

But it's still evil. I always tell rednecks :

Israel is one of the very few countries in the world with significant terrorism problems. If Israel doesn't need some security measure, we sure as hell don't need it.

So Israel agreeing to buy American tech with America's aid money to keep American politicians happy hurts my argument. :(

Re:Revelations isn't a chapter in the Torah

[KudyardRipling]

$pseudorant on

A worldwide scattering/regathering was predicted in in the Torah proper (Ki-Tavo/Netzavim).

This is a rather interesting title which deserves an answer. It may be true that the specific document usually called "Revelation" (not plural) is not part of the Jewish canon, but the contents are actually within the sphere of Jewish thought. One must consider that the source is the same as the prophetic books of the Tanakh (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hoshea, Zecharia, etc.) Although Daniel is not organized under the Prophets but under the Writings, that too has perhaps the most important details of prophecy so much that there is a rabbinic injunction against using the text in chapter nine to know when the Messiah would come ("may his bones burn/explode"). Apocalypticism is not restricted to the Tanakh proper; please indulge in the following.

The key figure that links all Abrahamic eschatology is the antihero. That means that Jews, Christians and Muslims have a common enemy and perhaps to the dismay of some (even here), it is not each other. Whether he be called Antichrist, Armilus or Al-Dajjal, to paraphrase a popular T-shirt statement, this is the guy that our sages have warned us about. Him we must resist.

Always remember: The Bad Guy comes first to do his thing (including but not limited to the technology that is available), then the Good Guy follows to kick his backside.

Now having given an answer for the title, back to the topic with a bit of the above understanding. Information technology gives man pseudo-omniscience, pseudo-omnipresence, and pseudo-omnipotence. It is the power to rule as G-d over other people H"V. Remember what the sages had to say about Nimrod.

Behold the tag: "Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced". Now that is dangerous.

$pseudorant off

From what I have read some years ago, religious identity was removed from the Todat-zechut (ID cards). Religious identity may make a comeback in a hidden data field, which may automate discrimination. There are those in the Interior Ministry who are pissed at the Bagatz (Supreme Court of Israel) for the Steckbeck Decision permitting Jesus Believers to receive citizenship based on the descendancy clause in the Law of Return.

Re:Revelations isn't a chapter in the Torah

[Anonymous Coward]

That was fascinating and fun to read, as a Buddhist. Too bad we, the Anonymous Coward, do not have some cookie based, temporary upmodding powers.

Re:Revelations isn't a chapter in the Torah

[clone53421]

You do. It’s called “logging in”, and if you do it you’ll find that you periodically get cookie-based temporary upmodding (and downmodding) powers.

Putting them right up there with Evil old US of A

[matrixskp]

That subjects everyone who visits the US to this same treatment.

Aren't barcodes easier

[Lawrence_Bird]

probably politically incorrect but heck if they are going to those lengths to store the data about everyone just go with the barcode tat.

Re:Thanks for telling the truth about Israel

[nachas]

It's amazing how you can make up stories and then fanatically believe in them as there is no truth whatsoever in what you wrote.

Trends in Israeli soceity

[bradbury]

It sounds to me like the trends in Israeli (Jewish) society are little different from the trends with Christian or Islamist fundamantalists -- they seek an exclusionist society with uniform beliefs. I believe this Sunday, Thomas L. Friedman made the point on a news talk show that there are a number of people within these societies (he was speaking about Islamist societies but it could be applied as well to Jewish or Christian societies) -- who want to turn back the clock to the 13th century -- where the Torah's and Bible's and Quran's dictated reality (if you could sort it out from what each of them says) is the fundamental reality -- and attempt to enforce upon the societies around them and the world that that *opinion* is the "real" reality. So for the Israeli's to push towards a more exclusive society (are they building settlements for the Palestinians, no, are they building settlements for the Christians, no, they are building settlements for the Jews -- and they fail to recognize that within the general trends in the world -- keeping control of a little bit of land is a historical artifact -- my solution to the problem of Israel/Palestine would be to use nanotechnology to construct a second copy of Isreal out in the Mediterranean creating dual Jewish/Islamic states -- using 50% of the atoms in the original copy -- So nobody could really say which is "better" (or maybe move it into a better climate where the rainfall is higher while the views are just as good) [and don't 'dis me on the concept, go read my Sapphire Mansions paper]. And so the only objection one can imagine is the faction of Israeli society that would object to 1/2 of their "homeland" atoms being moved to a jurisdiction under the control of the Palestinians. I mean *really* -- you want to claim that those are "Jewish atoms"???

Fundamentalists will never likely accept rational thought processes (in particular where science shows their beliefs are false), in large part that because current systems indoctrinate children with "beliefs" before their ability for "rational thought" develops. They seek to maintain their belief system and will from time to time act upon it. The only response the rest of us can take is to resist this and keep pointing out the contradictions and flaws in their thinking.

Re:Trends in Israeli soceity

[bradbury]

And note -- for whomever moderates this comment... I did not write it as "Flamebait" -- I wrote it to provide a little "outside-of-the-box" thinking. One way to alter fundamentalist mindsets is to force them to think about alternative solutions which may be workable compromises. However my position stands that there is an inherent contradiction between positions of many religions and science. In order to believe in fundamentalist positions one largely has to embrace "faith" and do no critical analysis of the premises or stories. And that is why during my teenage years (when I learned enough about science and rational thought) I gave up being an individual who believed in the teachings of the Catholic religion and became an agnostic. One could make arguments that the Jewish and Islamic fundamentalist teachings are similar "historical artifacts" (largely before scientific methods were validated). The only rational explanation I can find for the "miracles" of Jesus (if they are not simply myths) is that he might have been an alien who might have had the ability to manipulate matter using nanotechnology (or other equivalently advanced technology), e.g. nanorobots/nanoreplicators under mind control. These would place most religions on seriously swampy ground and the only 2 explanations I can offer are (a) that we are being manipulated by an advanced alien civilization (perhaps as an experiment) or (b) that we are all running in an extremely large computer simulation. And since those alternatives seem unprovable (to me) -- being an agnostic is the proper choice.

Whine?

[Anonymous Coward]

> 2. Whine about rocket attacks

You lost all credibility when you wrote the word "whine" in there. Even if the Palestinians have some legitimate gripes, they will not get any support from me as long as they do what they do. If you're so worried about Israel "playing victim" you might want to quit deliberately killing innocent people. It doesn't matter if your opponent does it too. At least they do it accidentally. And you have to wonder how "innocent" the other kids standing next to a kid firing rockets really are.

Re:Makes sense.

[couchslug]

"Jews did WTC"

Flamebait? I thought this was a geek forum.

It's a reference to the hilarious GNAA troll that CNN thought was legit and aired portions of..
Paula Zahn is a howl!

Safe link:

http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=13965

Re:Thanks for telling the truth about Israel

[mrraven]

Nice ad hominem attack, but actually everything I said is true, there is documentation in the form of letters that Irgun was ready to deal with the Nazis had the Nazis won, follow my link to mainstream lefty Counterpunch for more details, and the war crimes Israel committed against Gaza are well documented in the Goldstone report I linked to. Whether or not we should defund Israel is of course a subjective opinion and as such is not falsifiable but rather a subjective opinion you either accept, or don't accept. My *opinion* is that Israel has committed enough crimes against humanity that American citizens ought to stop funding their government with our tax dollars. I feel the same BTW about our own neo-con war criminals of both Republican and Democrat variety.

Thus in sum, I am the one here who has linked to sources Zionist apologist, and the one who also knows the ontological difference between verifiable facts (provided) and opinions (discussed) and you? Not so much... That was seem weak soup Hasbara, try again, this time with linked *facts* and feeling, m'k?

On the plus side at least you had the guts to respond as weak and undocumented as your response was, the cowardly Zionist tool who marked me down OTOH is cowardly.

Palestinians!!

[formfeed]

With this database and the wall between the occupied territories why should I eat kosher salt? Sure, they have it in every cooking show, but if you don’t get enough iodine, you become sick. I bet, Whoopi Goldberg doesn’t eat kosher. Iodine is also good to have in case of nuclear attacks and Isreal has nuclear weapons.

What? - Off topic and completely incoherent?? - I thought that was the theme.

Re:Makes sense.

[Shakrai]

Just a guess but the flamebait mod might have something to do with his username.....

Uh-huh...

[Noah69]

"I hope the fear of change and progress will not deter MKs from supporting the bill," Sheetrit said before the vote. I know panic has been stirred by those wishing to frighten the public."

Like, say, the Israeli government?

I just don't see the point of this. They will probably pass this off as something that helps against those evil terrorists, as always. I'm sure those rockets won't dare entering Israel as long as they don't have a biometric passport, right? And the hordes of suicide bombers will just turn around after jumping over the 8m wall, realizing they are not yet registered in the database.

(I'm aware that terrorism is indeed a problem in Israel, but things like these are simply not appropriate)

Just curious

[mahadiga]

Does all Jewish people across the World have same Haplotype?

Eizeh manyaqit ha'knesset!

[Eli Gottlieb]

Dear fucking God, Knesset, do you have any valid security reason for this? Everyone already has to carry a teudat zehut around 24/7 and submit to searches at every major building entrance. How will biometrics in a huge database no-doubt built by some friend of yours in the hi-tech industry prevent a suicide bombing or a rocket attack?

If the Knesset wants to do something about Israel's security they could try just about anything that's not such a blatant kick-back to industrial friends.

Re:Thanks for telling the truth about Israel

[clone53421]

Annexing territory after military victory as Israel has done and continues to do with expanding the settlements is a crime against humanity under international law.

Well, shit. Better give back Texas. Hell, I can’t even begin to imagine what would happen to national borders if we discredited all annexes made by military victory. The United States would consist of what... Manhattan and Alaska? The Louisiana Purchase was made from the French, not the natives, so I don’t know if that one would fly either...

Re:Thanks for telling the truth about Israel

[mrraven]

That was done before there was international law covering the rules of war and was alas immoral and a done deal, but yes I think we ought to for example give Native Americans more reservation land and compensation for the land stolen from them. As for Texas screw the Spaniards who were *also* land thieves but yes it would be nice if we were moral enough to choose to compensate the native people displaced. As for Israel their *illegal* land theft took place in 1967 well after the rules of wars prohibited nations from annexing land to their territory. That makes this a *legal* case as opposed to the moral case in the case of U.S. land theft. This makes the surviving Israelis leadership both civilian and military from the 1967 war criminals who ought to be prosecuted and locked away, as should the current leadership that illegally annexes land through the separation (apherteid) wall and through settlement expansion. A pox on the state of Israel and all it stands for which it has gained through suffering and commission of crimes. All the American Jews who support this criminal state are also complicit in these crimes IMO. Same for Americans who actively support our own American war criminals BOTH Bush and Obama.

P.S.

[mrraven]

If you can't see the difference from the U.S. immoral but sadly at the time legal acts and Israel's clearly illegal acts there is no hope for you. You cynical conservatives are all about "the rule of law," except when you aren't of course, sigh!

Re:P.S.

[clone53421]

If you can't see the difference from the U.S. immoral but sadly at the time legal acts and Israel's clearly illegal acts there is no hope for you.

Uh, the only difference I see, and the only distinction you’ve drawn, is the fact that one took place before the laws saying you shouldn’t do it, and the other occurred after them. In other words, it’s okay to be immoral as long as you have some crusty old paper that says it’s okay... or at least, there isn’t some crusty old paper forbidding it.

You cynical conservatives are all about "the rule of law," except when you aren't of course

Actually we’re about right and wrong. Laws are often good indicators of right and wrong, but not always perfect ones.

Anyway, what’s the point. From your sig, I can see that you apparently think the left is actually about reducing divisiveness... despite the fact that the left brings up the race issue at every possible opportunity and consistently blames the previous administration for what they themselves did much of, being in control of both houses of Congress. Do I expect you to approach this rationally either? Nah.

Is it my turn to sigh?