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Obama Backs New Launcher and Bigger NASA Budget
The AAAS's ScienceInsider confidently reports that NASA is in line to receive $1 billion more next year. Reader coop0030 sends this quote: "President Barack Obama will ask Congress next year to fund a new heavy-lift launcher to take humans to the Moon, asteroids, and the moons of Mars... The president chose the new direction for the US human space flight program Wednesday at a White House meeting with NASA Administrator Charles Bolden, according to officials familiar with the discussion. NASA would receive an additional $1 billion in 2011 both to get the new launcher on track and to bolster the agency's fleet of robotic Earth-monitoring spacecraft."
the first payload to the moon in the new launcher will be the entire Congress. One way.
For Science !
“The decision is not going to make anyone gasp,” said one source in the White House, which hopes to ease congressional concerns about the impact of the new plan on existing aerospace jobs.
This is about jobs; not science. Which means, science will take a back seat - shit will be built for the sake of creating the most jobs regardless of the scientific merits and it means that if a scientifically justified project creates less jobs or no jobs, it will be placed behind a project that creates more jobs.
Folks, this is how Government distorts markets and science. Then when either doesn't live up to its promises, Government passes the buck.
while i realize that there are some positives that can be garnered by war spending, can you imagine where we might be if the past 7-8 years of military budget were instead spent on scientific endeavors such as the space program? if those billions were instead going into cancer and aids research?
regardless, i am glad that even in a time of belt tightening, we still have people aiming for the stars (and not just at other people).
frog blast the vent core
"According to knowledgeable sources, the White House is convinced that scarce NASA funds would be better spent on a simpler heavy-lift vehicle that could be ready to fly as early as 2018."
Nothing in the article says what that HLV would be, or who would build it. The article also talks about the fight in Congress over Constellation districts losing aerospace jobs.
The only thing I am aware of is Elon Musk saying NASA has an option for SpaceX to develop an HLV, and I'm not talking about Falcon 9 or Falcon 9 Heavy. Anything else would be the usual suspects dusting off old blueprints and submitting proposals, or something I'm not aware of, which would be fine too.
McCain may have not been my ideal choice, but at least I knew exactly what he was going to do before he got into office.
Yeah, a heart attack and President Palin ;)
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Hey man, how ya been? I haven't seen you since we were standing together at the rally protesting the huge deficit spending of the Bush administration.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
Dig out the blueprints, put them into a CAD/CAM program, and modernize it, and they could have a RELIABLE heavy launch vehicle soon. NASA really screwed itself when they dropped the SATURN launch vehicle, in favor of the wasteful shuttle. Now, most all of the smart guys that developed the SATURN V, are gone, but the plans remain somewhere. They could tweak the F-1 rocket engine and have a heavy launch vehicle quickly.
I've clearly seen too many web ads. When I saw the article title "Obama Backs New Launcher and Bigger NASA Budget", I immediately conjured up other gems such as "Obama tells moms to go back to school", "Obama backs auto insurance reform, find cheaper rates", and "Obama will destroy us all". (Oh, nvm, that last one was from my daughter's Teabagger boyfriend, sry.)
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
All this funding is going to come from where?!
I don't know, they could stop the Iraq war for a day and a half. Get your priorities straight. If you're worried about the Federal budget, don't get in the way of progress and science, just stop the senseless war.
Free Martian Whores!
Has Obama supported anything with a smaller budget?
Are you kidding? They have more change in the couch cushions over at the Pentagon.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
You mean the 40% that has vowed to oppose anything Democrat? Why should they bother trying to work with people who won't work with them?
The other 40% doesn't have any interest in fixing it. If they show any interest they will be shouted down by the likes of Limbaugh and Palin and lynched as heretics.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
If we put the Iraq war on 4-10's and rotated mandatory furloughs (each unit skips one combat patrol a year), that could help.
THL phish sticks
It was not 1.1 trillion more in spending. It was several annual spending bills. It increased spending by about 9-10% over last year. An increase yes, a 1.1 trillion dollar increase, no.
I can only hope that this heavy-lift launch system will support a public option with early buy-in and that none of this NASA budget will be appropriated to state-supported abortions. Otherwise, it will apparently have a hard time getting through the senate.
You mean the other 40% who are deliberately excluding themselves by vowing to vote it down regardless of the contents?
Those 40%?
The 40% that just so happen to coincidentally be Republicans. Funny that.
Joe Liberman may be a festering, infected boil on Satan's cock, in the vice-like-employment of the insurance industry, but at least he is coming to the table to discuss how to destroy the bill. The Repubs aren't even doing that.
The brain damaged failures known as 'federal funding for faith-based medicine' and 'abstinence only sex educaitons' my trollrific friend :)
He's also saving us money by telling the AG to not prosecute pot users in states that make such use legal. I do wish he'd pull every US soldier and asset out of the ME immediately, but military people who know better than I say that would be a bad idea.
Blar.
So why hasn't 60% of the Senate fixed the health care system? Last I checked, 60 senators couldn't be found to support the bill.
Why shouldn't they oppose it? The Democrats aren't interested in meeting in the middle. They are interested in pushing their own agenda. The fact that they can't even convince the moderates in their own party to go along with some of the stuff they've tried to pass ought to tell you something. Mind you, this is exactly how the GOP operated when they had control, but the silence coming from the man who promised us a new kind of politics is deafening, isn't it?
I had a phone call from a Democratic fundraiser a few days ago asking me if I would contribute money to help them fight the "Republican obstruction". I asked him why they are blaming the Republicans for their difficulties when they have 60 votes in the Senate and a large majority in the House. He didn't have an answer. Then I told him I would be voting GOP in 2010 just to put a check on Obama's power at which point he proceeded to lecture me on how evil the GOP is until I hung up. Wonder if they'll be calling me again anytime soon?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Technically, the other 40% do get input. It's just that the only input they have to offer is either shitting on other reps' desks or dangling their nuts in America's face (teabaggers FTL).
We could probably get these items built much more inexpensively in China. In fact we should probably just outsource our science, engineering, and manufacturing of space exploration to China. We might use our own people for Astronauts though. It's all about making sure we're focused on the "true value add" that we have for Space Exploration as a marketplace. We can leverage the synergies of other nations to help us keep our energies focused on our "Core Business Objectives." Our core business in exploring space should be the exploring part. The whole "science" and "engineering" and all that useless "knowledge" stuff is best done by the people who are deeply specialized in those things... and they ain't us. /suit-speak
[signature]
No, they just don't have any interest in "fixing" it by turning the entire system over to Uncle Sam. Bit of a difference there. If the Democrats want to allow a vote on tort reform (just to pick one issue) I suspect you'd see some Republicans come to the table. No less a right-wing neo-con than Howard Dean has suggested that this is a necessary reform -- funny how we can't get an up or down vote on it, isn't it?
Then there's the cute little stunt the Dems have pulled with drug re-importation. Tell me, where did candidate Obama stand on that issue? Where's the outrage when President Obama cuts agreements behind the scenes with industry groups? If Bush had done that we'd see progressives foaming at the mouth. Why is Obama getting a pass?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Indeed. After McCain's douchey 'concession speech' in which he practically demanded that Obama act in a bipartisan manner, Obama tried too hard at bipartisanship. He should have known that the Republicans would never meet him half way. After several months of Democrats giving concessions to Republicans re: health care, and several months of the Republicans not giving concessions, it's about time the Democrats played politics the way the Republican-majority Congress did in the 90's and most of the 00's. No need to turn into total douches, but the Dems really need to stand up to the idiocy coming from the angry (fr)right(end) wing. What are these people so scared of anyway? :P
Blar.
"They are interested in pushing their own agenda." - if you think that somehow Republicans aren't guilty of that as well, you are very, very deluded.
So are they saying a new heavy lift vehicle is replacing the Ares I? My understanding is Ares I is the simple, cheap, manned crew vehicle stack and the Ares V is the bigger, heavier, not man-rated launcher meant for heavy lifting. They were supposed to reuse shuttle parts and know-how to make things work better. So far it isn't. I have a feeling that shuttle reuse was a political decision to make this sound more economical rather than a proposal from the engineers guaranteeing it would be frugal.
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
No, we had it during your favorite Bush years. Instead there you were unAmerican if you didn't vote with the president (terrorists and gays are scary). Now, we have Republicans who refuse to collaborate at all. Obama has tried to get them involved and they won't. Republicans wouldn't even halt their agenda when it violated Americans rights, but I'm sure you support warrantless wiretapping.
Republican definition of bipartisianship: You do what we say or we don't do anything at all. Except whine.
The topic is Obama asking for more money for space exploration, and the GGP asked where the money could come from. I suggest the military; compared to what we're spending on war, what we spend on science is chump change.
If you're a cokehead and about to go bankrupt, you don't fix your budget by skipping that $1 McDonald's biscuit and gravy once a week, you stop snorting coke.
As I said, priorities. You need to eat, you don't need to snort coke. We need research, we don't need the Iraq war. Research is cheap, war is expensive.
Free Martian Whores!
Of course they are. But the Republicans didn't run on a centrist bipartisan platform, did they?
And the Dems wonder why Independents are abandoning them in droves.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
JUST WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK IS THE MIDDLE? I'm so sick and tired of hearing this. You are full of shit. All you fucking republicans should be lined up against a wall and shot.
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
The flame would be visible from space, much like the Luxor's light.
Blar.
I didn't vote for for Obama but your statement is complete bullshit. Period.
That 40% you're talking about has refused to participate leaving Obama no choice but to carry on with the 60% that's interested in doing their job. The 40% you're standing behind has decided they don't want any solution that doesn't allow for massive fraud of the system and forcing people to pay at least 2x-4x as much as they should be paying for a healthy insurance system. And we know for this for a fact because these systems are already working around the world; contrary to the lies by the 40% you're working so hard to defend.
There is absolutely no shortage of things you can bash Obama on but bashing him for Republicans standing in line to abuse and defraud the American people isn't one of them.
Drug re-importation? Why not have the stones to force the corps to sell us the drugs at a fair price in the first place? You only like socialism once removed?
Blar.
Mod parent up to recover his unfair flamebait score, he's not attacking either party, he's attacking both--and he's right. It's true that the Democrats aren't meetinging in the middle, and it's also true that the Republicans aren't either.
'course when they do meet up in the middle good things don't happen there, either...
Subject says it all.
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
The other 40% doesn't have any interest in fixing it
None of them do. Neither side of the Ruling Party has even suggested cutting back the amount of interference by federal and state governments in the medical care and insurance industries. The AMA and the insurance companies have regulations that they've bought and paid for that exclude competition, drive consolidation into larger and larger corporations, prohibit re-importation of their own products from other countries at lower prices, and even prohibit inter-state competition for insurance coverage (which is exactly what the commerce clause was supposed to prevent.)
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Thanks for the clarification. Many of the news companies were not exactly forthcoming with what the 1.1trillion was for.
The actual cost is significantly more than the "1/15th" of the Federal budget you mention. That amount only includes direct expenditure on the war in Iraq.
It doesn't include the healthcare needed for the tens of thousands of soldiers who are coming back injured, nor does it include the losses in taxes due to many of these people never being able to work again, or even just those uninjured citizens who no longer work at their regular jobs because they've being sent on their fifth or six deployment to Iraq.
Don't forget that there's another, soon to be bigger, war going on in Afghanistan. That alone will likely be another 1/15th, if it escalates, of the budget consumed.
As for the other 14/15ths, a significant amount of that budget goes towards programs that support America's warmaking. Think war technology research, the NSA/CIA/FBI/etc., and so forth.
Much of the rest of the budget has been similarly squandered. Instead of going towards socially-useful purposes like education and healthcare, it goes towards bailing out billionaires and corporations.
And really, he's not off-topic at all. America dedicates far too many of its resources towards destroying tents and mud brick huts in third-world countries. Even a small fraction of the money spent there each year could immensely help American society in a great many ways. Space research (which often has many spin-off technologies) is one of the best ways.
I am glad they are ditching ARES-I. The thing could barely lift the Orion module into orbit, and that's after lopping off all sorts of features (land landing, six person crew, toilet, etc). Then there were the thrust oscillation issues. A solid rocket does not produce a steady thrust. As it burns, chunks of the fuel can come loose and alter the burn characteristics of the engine as a whole. On the Shuttle, there was a flexible beam running through the external tank. The solids were attached to both ends of the flexible beam, and the orbiter was attached to the middle. They had to develop some sort of spring system for ARES-I, which didn't help its already weak lift capabilities.
This makes a lot more sense. Take the basic shuttle launch system, remove the orbiter, stick the engines on the bottom, put the Orion module on the top. There would be no costly engine development, as the rocket uses the same proven engine that has been launching the shuttle into orbit for the past thirty years. The J-130 (as its called) can lift the Orion module into orbit with ease. In fact, it could lift two - and not the stripped down versions, but the full featured Orions. Imagine being able to park one permanently at the ISS, as a lifeboat. The J-130, through the use of a module that mimics the mount points of the shuttle's cargo bay, could lift any payload that the shuttle could lift - including the Canadarm and an airlock for EVAs, something the ARES-I cannot do.
Because it shares so much of the shuttle heritage, the Jupiter system can keep the bulk of the current shuttle workers employed, especially if the current shuttle mission manifest is stretched out, or perhaps a flight or two added. The ARES system would leave a decade-long gap in some areas. Far to long to keep people around "polishing tools".
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
'course when they do meet up in the middle good things don't happen there, either...
Yeah, those balanced budgets and surpluses in the 90s really sucked......
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Why shouldn't they oppose it?
Oh, I dunno, maybe because this is AN ENTIRE COUNTRY and not some playground fight. They are charged with being reasonable and running this country properly, but instead BOTH SIDES squabble and stick to their own party like it's some kind of moral offense not to.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
Mcgrew, that is just fucking awesome. I think I'm going to print that out and tape it in my office window.
Are we sure we want to go there? Last thing I need is some demons showing up on my doorstep.
Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted.
Yeah, a heart attack and President Palin ;)
The guy's younger than either of my parents, and my mom (81) plays golf and my dad (78) square dances. Wikipedia says
To misquote McCoy, "He ain't dead yet, Jim."
Your humorous comment ;) was badly mismodded, but I'm glad they gave you a karma boost (even though I know you don't need it).
Free Martian Whores!
Probably the only smart decision this man has made. I offer into evidence a line from "From the Earth to the Moon" series. "Pumping that much cash into the private sector could be very popular"...of course, ironically, that's tempered by that douchebag Al Franken who is supposed to be the science adviser but who has less than zero ability to dream.
Wait a minute! 1/15th of TRILLIONS of dollars is A LOT of money! Gotta start somewhere, right? Also, that 1/15th is currently a COMPLETE WASTE and TOTALLY UNNECESSARY and will result in even more money needed for the after affects such as PTSD and other medical necessities that our troops deserve for their sacrifices. (yes, run-on sentence but you get the point)
I believe O is taking credit for Bush's plan.
Why not? He's getting blame for Bush's economy.
Dude, in case you hadn't have noticed, more than 1/2 of the current national debt was from our President Bush and our Republican Party. That any Republican or so-called conservative can complain about a Democratic deficit with a straight face is beyond me, when our party has not produced a single balanced budget in 40 years and ushered in the mega-deficits under Reagan.
Republicans fail when it comes to budget cutting. Here's a hint. If you want to jack up federal spending to support two wars and doubling the defense budget, then taxes have to go up to pay for it. Choke on that with our 500B annual interest payment current administrations have to pay now.
This is my sig.
The Iraq war is only 1/15th as expensive as everything else the government does. Someone who only spends 1/15th of their budget on an activity has a hobby, not an addiction.
It's not the cause of the bankruptcy.
Anyway, you can relax. We won the war and the combat troops are coming home. We may keep a (relatively inexpensive) forward force there like we have in Korea and Germany, but the combat is essentially over.
As you correctly deduced I was being a wiseass, but there is some truth to what I said. The thought of Palin as President turned a lot of people off. I think it's legitimate to worry about the VP nominee even if the guy at the top of the ticket is as healthy as an ox. POTUS is the most stressful job on the planet (is it just me or does Obama already have some gray that wasn't there before?) and will take a toll even on healthy and fit individuals.
Plus there's always the danger of some nutjob seeking a lead based solution to his political discontent....
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
I believe he was on topic as he was explaining that it's a matter of priorities to find 1 billion dollars in the federal budget for NASA.
His priorities obviously differ from yours but he clearly identified a big source of spending (6%) and noted that the amount considered was small compared to that big source of spending.
Really, it's like profiling code, if nobody has ever profiled some code you are going to see big misuses of resource (like 70% of time spent recomputing the same value etc.). But after some people have looked at profiles, you get down to a point where a 6% figure is a big target. I am pretty sure you are not the first one to look at the federal budget so it's likely that 6% is a big juicy target when trying to optimize the federal budget.
So your rhetoric does not really help as the other 14/15ths are composed of hundreds of items that are probably just as hard to assess, prioritize and possibly remove from the budget. the Parent was really just putting the 1 billion in perspective.
Personally I think that spending a billion on NASA is a rather good use of the money as they spend the money on cool stuff (electronics, getting bright people to work together, Linux etc.) and produce cool images, discoveries, stories that really make my days brighter.
D*mn it. The government needs to stop competing with the private space industry and get the hell out of the way. We don't even NEED another HLV. This is nothing but a government jobs program for the big NASA districts.
Necron69
Hell, just 2 days ago Obama signed $1.1 trillion more in spending, on a whim. WTF?
I love the scene produced by this evocative statement. Obama's playing Tetris on his cell phone and an aide approaches with a silver platter covered in spending bills. "Sir, congress has prepared for you a selection of the finest budgets." Obama glances quickly away from his screen with a scowl. "Bring them back later. I can't figure out how to pause this thing." "Very good, sir." The aide bows and begins backing away. "Damn it," Obama shouts in dismay. "You made me miss with my T. Whatever, give me a pen." He grabs a bill at random. "I'm only signing this one. Throw out the rest. Tell them that next time they either need to combine all the bills or include a grant to fund research into pausing Tetris."
"I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
Is this new one going to use the same J2-X engine? Only two years ago NASA awarded a $1.2 billion contract to P&W to develop this engine. It performed fine in all tests so far, and was scheduled for another test in 2010...
"Waste not one watt!" - CZ
McCain may have not been my ideal choice, but at least I knew exactly what he was going to do before he got into office.
Bush signed off on the initial Constellation Plan. Bush made space exploration a pro-Republican issue. I don't know McCain's specific position, but the Republican Party line would have been in favor of the $3 Billion plan that the Augustine Commission recommended would be necessary to push human exploration of space ahead at the levels Bush was targeting.
Remember, just because you are arguing your own fiscal conservatism doesn't mean you can pigeon-hole political parties who have historically been associated with that trait.
If anything, Obama is cutting back on the plans presented by the last president. The Democrat is tightening the government purse strings.
After the first sentence, I thought you were agreeing with him. 1/15th is not at all insignificant, it's over 6%. When you're talking about the entire federal budget, having any one thing take up a full 15th of the resources is pretty serious.
The Democrats aren't interested in meeting in the middle
Why should they be? They have a majority in the House and Senate, and are in the White House. Clearly, the American voters have spoken. We went so far to the right in the last administration that leaning to the left IS leaning to the middle.
Free Martian Whores!
SpaceX's technology is ITAR controlled, they cannot sell it to the Chinese or anyone else without going through an approval process that they would not be able to navigate given the nature of their technology.
And I love the attitude: congress cuts NASA funding; therefore *Obama* is trying to kill science. Congress (with Obama's backing) increases NASA funding, Obama is handing out money to his cronies. Not saying the same thing didn't happen during the Bush years, I just wish there was some consistency in people's complaints.
but the combat is essentially over.
Man, you'll believe any old shit, won't you? It wasn't mission accomplished back when Bush said it, and it ain't any closer now with the ironic peace prize recipient.
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
Depends whether the Ares I sticks around or not. Given the administration's well known allergy to uttering the word "Ares" and given the recent outburst by a distraught senator from Alabama (his name rhymes with "Shelby") who happens to be a huge Ares booster, I'd say that Ares I is going out the door never to return. That's not part of the Bush plan.
Also keep in mind that while I don't think they've yet slid the schedule back for the Ares V, it's unlikely, with the delays to the Ares I, to fly in 2018.
Damn, wish their was a mod '+6 I just shat myself laughing'
Shame posts cannot be modified both 'funny' and 'insightful', because parent is both...
Is this guy part of the 60% interested in doing their job or is he part of the 40%?
Really? NASA was adding unnecessary complexity to Ares?
This is pretty well hosed-up. They (Congress, Obama, and the commision) think starting over is faster than rinishing Ares?
Mind you, I don't think Ares is so great, but if we aren't going to just build Saturn Vs, we might as well finish the Ares.
Unless you're looking to make more jobs and spend more money, in which this idea might be perfect. But it isn't about getting heavy lift capacity online as soon as practical.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
The thought of Palin as President turned a lot of people off.
It made me wonder about McCain's decision making abilities.
Free Martian Whores!
Yeah, a heart attack and President Palin ;)
He's not the president, he's a very naughty boy!
Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
handmadehands.co.uk
South Africa -> United States -> China
Musk has had to change citizenship before. He can do it again.
Seastead this.
It doesn't matter as long as it was modded up.
Free Martian Whores!
Of course they are. But the Republicans didn't run on a centrist bipartisan platform, did they?
Yer ... Centrist Bipartisanists! Splitters!
Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
handmadehands.co.uk
You must have a different source of news on the vast Iraq war combat operations for US troops. Please post a link to this source. I would like to see the video.
Thanks.
They don't want to fix it by "turning the entire system over to Uncle Sam" - they wanted to introduce a government-provided private insurance option that would compete with other private insurers.
The private insurance companies know that they don't like competition unless they're all on the same side: the side of profits over patients, so they have spent a great deal of money and effort to convince people that somehow adding a new player to the game is somehow "removing choice" and that this is about "socialising healthcare" rather than increasing access to healthcare for more people.
Good lord, if Obama really wanted to push a socialised healthcare system on the US I think Rush might explode with the force of a small atom bomb laced with prescription opiates.
Instead, all the special interests have their hooks into their employees in the senate (on both sides, and the independent "side") to kill anything that gets through until it's been carefully reshaped into something that benefits the insurance industry at the expense of the American people.
It's also very distasteful that so much time is being spent on limiting access to a procedure that is perfectly legal (abortion) because of spurious religious reasons - whatever happened to freedom of religion?
Republicans won't come to the table because they have been told not to, and anyone who would disobey that would be annihilated in the media by the right wing shouty mouthpieces that represent the party.
He's tightening the purse strings in one specific area, if this is what you consider tightening purse strings. Did he reduce the plan from $3 billion down to $1 billion or is he raising that figure up to $4 billion. Either way, I'd argue this is one area where we should be spending as much money as we possibly can given the long term benefits that will from this.
Obama cutting spending is like someone spending thousands a month on car payments, clothing and nightlife and then claiming they're cutting back by no longer buying that $2 cup of coffee every morning.
A lot of folks were uncomfortable with the deficit spending under Bush. Even leaving that aside, and leaving aside the bank bailouts, stimulus, and auto maker bailouts of the past year, the Obama budget deficits will be significantly greater than the largest Bush deficits:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/03/21/GR2009032100104.html
Note how *none* of Obama's deficits will be less than Bush's deficit of '08, by the White House's own admission, and how the Congressional Budget Office thinks their numbers are too optimistic.
I have always wanted to work for NASA and the space sector. This gives me renewed hope to start looking into it again! I just gotta keep my conversions between standard US measurements and the evil Metric system right!
I guess what you consider a compromise is getting everything your way. That's basically the attitude the democrats have taken.
And you're right, the republicans did much of the same when they were in control and look where it landed. Now it's the democrat's turn to be voted out. Your average American wants congress to be more sensible and do what's best for the nation, not push their own garbage agendas and perform favors for friends.
Looking at the corruption in garbage and the crap they're trying to push on us people have plenty to be afraid of.
If you look at the US discretionary budget the military accounts for over 60%, over 70% in shitty years. As for total budget war makes up about 25%, non-military defense programs an additional 14%. Veteran's pay an amazing 1.6%. Comparatively, NASA gets around .5% of the total expenses. http://www.wallstats.com/deathandtaxes/ (discretionary is in the middle, total in the bottom right).
1/15th is 6.6%, parent is outright lying.
And as mcgrew says, war is easier to not have than... Old people? Sick people....?
You specifically, and people like you, need to calm down, take a breath, and then criticize. When you rant like this it only degrades your argument and the only people that will agree with you already share your sentiment. And your criticizm needs more meat. For example, rather then $1.1 trillion on a whim, you could explain what you're talking about. Or maybe provide a link.
Personally, I like the guy. He's not the second coming of Jesus, but he and his ideas aren't nearly as bad as some people portray. I could argue against you, but I just don't see the point if you're just going to blindly spew rage.
Yes, because Biden is a totally way better candidate.
His gaffes just got shoved in peoples faces to a much lesser degree. That's about the only difference between Biden and Palin I've been able to discern (And I don't mean I have a great, burning desire for Palin to be President).
NASA's budget is somewhere in the neighborhood of $8 Billion per year to do all the work they do. The plan that Obama is supposedly signing off on will increase that by an extra $1 Billion. An alternative option that was presented was to increase NASA's budget by $3 Billion per year (which would have been the difference needed to fulfill Bush's original timeline).
As it stands, it seems like at some point during the 20's there will be a couple of humans spending a month or more at a time living on the Moon in much the same way that the 90's and 00's had been spent ramping up the ISS for human occupation.
Yes... yes... Obama hasn't "cut" anything. I meant to say "he didn't choose the most expensive option". He certainly could have cut the human space program (a popular option presented by the Augustine Commission) and we should all be thankful that he didn't do that.
That 40% you're talking about has refused to participate leaving Obama no choice but to carry on with the 60% that's interested in doing their job. The 40% you're standing behind has decided they don't want any solution that doesn't allow for massive fraud of the system and forcing people to pay at least 2x-4x as much as they should be paying for a healthy insurance system. And we know for this for a fact because these systems are already working around the world; contrary to the lies by the 40% you're working so hard to defend.
The 40% isn't brain dead. This health care "reform" will probably rank as one of the worst laws ever passed in the US. It doesn't nothing to combat either massive fraud or an increase in health care costs. No such system is already working anywhere in the world. Just because two systems happen to share a single trait, namely, universal health care coverage, doesn't mean they are the same system.
First, it's worth noting that no attempt to combat fraud or excessive health care is actually taken. Second, the only attempt to reduce health care costs is to chop a little money off of Medicare. And to the opposite ends, we have a) universal health insurance coverage which raises the price for everyone, b) a large public entitlement, namely the public funded option, that is by its nature (in the steady state, it'll never charge more for health insurance coverage than it pays out), guaranteed to be a money sink for public funds, c) a panel which can insert new required services for current health insurance plans to cover, d) no change in liability issues, e) no change in supply of medical services, and f) no change in the balkanization of health insurance (namely, in most states, you can only sell health insurance if you are based in the state).
Deficit spending in and of itself is not bad. I'm sure most of use will do it at one time or another to buy a car or a house. The crux of any issue regarding deficit spending is whether or not the expenditure will show expected returns. And I'm not talking about dollar-per-dollar returns.
Is spending money on science, discovery, and development worth the expenditure worth it? I'd say yes.
Is universal healthcare worth it? I'd say yes.
Is protecting ourselves from people who want to harm us worth it? I'd say yes.
Now, consider the balance of cost-per-return for each of those and the viability of each implementation of each endeavor. Which is most likely to actually succeed?
Plus there's always the danger of some nutjob seeking a lead based solution to his political discontent....
What is it with conservatives alluding to the assassination of Obama and then trailing off? I've had extended family members do this repeatedly too. It's like they hope for it, but don't want to come out and actually say it.
Or we could stop some of the nation charity money
lick the cancle button (at least thats what our Chinese QA says)
But I like snorting coke! Especially Vanilla Coke
I believe in this case it was someone alluding to the assassination of McCain and then trailing off...
Just because you don't like the truth, does not make it false.
And yet war is one of the few things that the Constitution mandates that the federal government "do."
Health care and social programs actually are not mandated. Military forces are.
Priorities, sure. But let's not let our fuzzy good feelings rule here. Some things are more important than being healthy, like being alive. Yes, we can argue whether or not an individual war was necessary, good, etc... but to say that we don't need to have a military or that having a strong military is a waste or that we no longer need wars is, IMO, not only ignorant of history but ignorant of human nature. I don't think you are necessarily saying this, I'm just spouting off on my soapbox while I'm on it :)
I don't know whether or not Iraq and Afghanistan were necessary. I do think that there is definitely a problem of anti-western-civilization terrorism. I don't know everything, nor does any other person on earth... but I think we should all agree, at least, that there are some basic things about humans that lead to them wanting to conquer through violence, which subsequently leads to defense by violence.
As long as there are people that desire power and are willing and quite happy to kill for it, or desire glory or whatever it is, there will be the unfortunate necessity to protect peace-loving people with war.
If someone thinks everyone is sane and humane enough to talk about differences, I think that someone is very, very, very mistaken and perhaps let the 60s get to them a little too much.
Of course, even the peace-loving hippies in the 60s seemed to get wacko sometime... i.e., Manson...
It was a good decision Palin was well loved by the Republican a lot more than McCain was; the problem was she couldn't handle the media and was eaten alive.
While war spending is inherently the worst kind of spending, (since you are borrowing money for something which is expended once such as ordinance, and unlike other spending has the PURPOSE of destroying wealth, instead of even the chance of creating it), actual war spending accounts for a small portion of our budget. It's just the largest item in the "discretionary" budget.
I'm of the opinion however that since Congress saw fit to steal from the non-discretionary budget to pay for the discretionary budget that it's foolish to act as if the budgets are very separate. Yes, to change FUNDING levels would require fundamentally altering programs in the non-discretionary budget, unlike Defense spending. But I take issue with people who point to ANY part of our budget as "the problem". It just displays their ignorance and/or naivety.
Defense spending should be slashed. And so should most other spending. The Federal government spends so much money on things they have no business spending money on.
Incidentally, funding NASA, which consistently brings new technology, advancement and understanding that can be appreciated not just by our citizens but by all humans, is perhaps one of the best places for the government to dump money.
But please, anyone who advocates cutting funding for a single part of the budget is either willfully ignorant, or completely self-serving in their own opinions. The budget is much more complex than that... please don't make yourself sound like a 16 year old rebel without a cause by pretending otherwise.
FanFictionRecs.net
If you would have read the whole post, it was about the possibility of McCain being assassinated and Palin becoming president.
That's pretty insulting to Ares supporters.
...but so far lobbying is legal. We need to change the law first before anyone gets thrown out.
Blar.
The Republicans constantly said that they would vote for the bill if X was done. X was done, they didn't vote. I see you are trying to change the subject here.
Blar.
vowed to oppose anything Democrat
Political parties should be abolished. If politicians are going to be basing their work on which party suggested an item rather than the merit of the item itself, then they really should not be governing the country.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
For all those "balanced budgets and surpluses in the 90s", one must remember that the National Debt increased every single year in the 90's.
Oddly enough, I always thought that if your budget was balanced or there were a surplus, your debt would go DOWN, not UP. Silly me.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Mr. President, with the United States and the world facing the largest "recession" since the Great Depression, the Dollar continuing to plummet, and an out of control national debt, what are you doing to tighten America's belt to get through this tough period?
POTUS: We're gonna send men to Mars and a couple of asteroids! Plus, we're gonna see if there's anything new on the Moon since we last went up there.
But, um, we already don't have enough money to bail out failing companies, conduct an unnecessary war in Iraq, and all the other projects that costing billions and are working to erode the value of the dollar. Why would you commit us to more non-vital spending?
POTUS: BLAAAAAHHH!!!! It's MARS, man! MAAAAAARRRRRRRSSSSS! Once we find little green men, all of our money problems will be OVER!
That's very... Nikita Khrushchev of you.
unfortunately it will require deficit spending, but Moon-shot programs will create good, profitable jobs, and promote higher education standards. And that's compared to healthcare [of people who did take care of themselves in the 1st place] which likely promotes education at the lowest common denominator due to the corporations/gov'ts thrist for easy money.
Are you serious?
The Democrats have made concession after concession to the Republicans on every major bill they've tried to get through Congress, and the Republicans just move the goalposts. This is why we ended up with a watered-down, crap stimulus bill. This is why we're ending up with a watered-down, crap health reform bill. The Republicans are taking obstructionist tactics to new extremes, like "accidentally" losing their voting cards, and filibustering a defense slash war-funding bill in the hopes that the Senate won't even be able to debate the health insurance reform bill. Meanwhile, the Democrats refuse to use the options at their disposal, like reconciliation, to pass the health care bill without bipartisan support or a supermajority. Senator Baucus worked with Republicans for ages on his version of the health care bill, only for them to oppose it anyway. Republican Senators gleefully announce that they intend to break Obama and make health care his waterloo. Republicans previously for health care reform suddenly oppose it for nebulous reasons.
100% party unity is unrealistic for the Democrats on any issue, and the Democrats have 60 members in their caucus in the Senate, not 60 Democrats. Senator Lieberman lost his Democratic primary and garnered more Republican votes than his Democratic opponent, and also more than his Republican opponent. He opposes pretty much every big-ticket Democratic agenda item. That's hardly a party-line Democrat to begin with. Other Democrats are suggesting they will vote against the bill because of a lack of cost-control options like the public option (removed to appease Republicans, despite it's 60%+ support among the public), or because of compromises made to the Republicans, which have garnered no Republican votes and only weakened the bill.
The Republicans don't want to meet in the middle, and the Democrats are fools for trying to act bipartisan. All they get for it is Republicans shrilly insisting that the Democrats are bullying them around any time they want to pass any of the legislation they were elected to pass. The Republicans don't oppose the health care bill on ideological grounds. Plenty of Republicans have supported health care legislation more liberal than what's in the Senate today, such as, say, Richard Nixon. Mitt Romney imposed a very similar plan to the one in the Senate now while he was governor. And so on and so on and so on. It wasn't until the current cycle that Republicans became opposed to plans such as the one now before the Senate. The ideology behind conservatism didn't suddenly change. No, the Republicans made a political decision that it was in their best interest to do their best to attack and bring down any initiatives Obama came up with.
The Republicans aren't opposed to the health care reform bill for any other reason than they were determined to make the Democrats failures. And they're doing an excellent job of it.
Huh? You claimed that "We won the war and the combat troops are coming home."
Well, you got it half right...the troops are coming home:
But the
war is
far from
over
Go look at the materials from the Augustine Commission. It makes not sense, and it wasn't a presented option to the Obama administration, to build Ares V if the Ares I is getting cancelled (they both use the same 5-segment SRB). What's gonna get built might be *called* the Ares V, to keep the taxpayers confused, but it will be much smaller, with much less lift capability.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
Well, given he's willing to torpedo meaningful healthcare reform just so that he can indirectly limit a woman's right to control their own body, I'd say he's clearly part of the 40%. How is that not obvious?
Exactly. But that's the plan. They are pretending like this is a good idea. It pretty much sucks all the way around. It locks the US into an architecture where per-flight costs for people in orbit are much higher than Ares I. It reduces per-flight lift capacity substantially, which will lead to much larger numbers of flights required to do anything interesting, such a a flight to Mars. That wouldn't necessarily be a problem, except for the high per-flight cost. This plan is a desperate attempt to solve a short term budget problem, by locking us into long term budget constraints. It's worse than doing nothing (e.g. worse than canceling manned spaceflight) because we won't be able to fix the architecture for another 25 years. It's really, really bad news for manned spaceflight.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
She was also woefully unqualified for the job, unlike McCain. It's hard-to-impossible to know what would have been had Palin not been chosen as a running mate, but I think that McCain would have beaten Obama had he chosen someone else. Palin energized the Republican base but turned away a lot of moderates. I wouldn't have voted for McCain, but I did feel that, until he chose Palin, he was the best choice from our selection of Republicans.
If by working you mean that they pay higher taxes for healthcare, then yes they are working well. I think the biggest issue many of us have is that a large majority of the country already has health insurance, and they are fine with what they have (the polling and statistics support this assertion). So, any "change" may result in those of us with good healthcare paying more for what we already have, in order to support the people who don't have it. I'm not claiming to know what the solution is, but that is the crux of the issue.
So there are now 41 Senators who make up 40% of the Senate and 59 Senators who make up the other 60%? I like your new math.
You are fact-impaired. Start your education, here: US National Debt Graph
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
I looked at your news posts. No battles. No combat. No troops wounded.
A perfect utopia is not needed for "combat" to be "essentially" over.
I hear there are still Nazi sympathizers in some places. And we still have troops in Germany. I guess WWII is still going on ... ?
It's called rounding, and it's not all that new. Perhaps you've hard of it?
The only part of what you said that bears resemblance to reality was "I don't know". Bush provided to NASA what's known as an un-funded mandate, which led NASA to decide to shut down the ISS immediately after its construction was completed. McCain and Obama, like Bush, don't have much understanding of, nor interest in, spaceflight, as far as can be told from examining their public statements and actions.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
Since when is the middle the halfway distance between a complete nutjob and someone who is less of a nutjob? Since when does solving a problem mean taking everybody's opinion, then cutting the differences in half?
Finally, if you think that Republicans in Congress would ever, ever cave in on universal health care, you're thoroughly mistaken. It'd be like Palin suddenly supporting 3rd-trimester abortions. They can't, they don't want to, and enough people oppose those ideas to make that sort of position switch political suicide.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Clearly, the American voters have spoken. We went so far to the right in the last administration that leaning to the left IS leaning to the middle.
The American electorate rejected Bush'ism. That's not the same thing as the American electorate giving Pelosi'ism a mandate. Don't believe me? Take a look at the current public opinion polls. Independents are fleeing the Democratic Party like rats from a sinking sink. Why do you suppose that is?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Yeah, FINALLY spending more money on something that can contribute to humanity, not war. Has anyone ever done the calculations if the US had spent even 1% of their military budget on NASA? We'd have bases on Titan by now.
I suppose any news organization other than Fox News will do...
Wait, so you'd be ok if Obama would have channeled Bush Jr and said "I have received a mandate from the people to rule; everyone can go fuck themselves"? Really? How fucked up is your world?
Finally, political self-identification is idiotic when the voting patterns match 1-to-1 with a different party. Beck and O'Reilly are no more Independents than Deng Xiaoping was a capitalist. By the same token, all those independents who vote with a very particular group of politicians and have their same talking points belong to the same party as those politicians.
In other words, stop waving the independent banner. It still has the corporate logo for "Republican" in the corner.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
You've some how entirely missed the point - and even hints you're drinking the koolaid. Insurance companies and that 40% all say they can fix things without drastic changes. They have even said they will change. Given that insurance companies already have 90% of the power required to make sweeping changes and zero changes have been made to date, pretty well supports the insurance companies are enjoying their fleecing and have no intention, in any way, shape, or form, of doing anything other than screwing over idiots that refuse to support change.
And yet, what you're entirely missing is, the entire stated purpose of various bill efforts is to make it pay for it self by removing fraud and increasing efficiency. That's the entire thrust behind it. Insurance companies (and criminals - there is an intersection there) don't want this because the only way you can do that is to critically review what people are being billing and what insurance companies ARE and ARE NOT paying for.
Right now, the phrase, "health care insurance company" is just fancy words for "fraud". Companies who have a vested interest in fraud are not going to change the system. And when that 40% you speak of is basically bought and paid for by these same companies, how do you possibly believe things can improve any other way? So what other options exist?
Like many people, you seem to suffer from short tunnel vision. You need to have a long view on changes like this. Ultimately, it doesn't matter one bit if one of these bills, "rank[s] as one of the worst laws ever passed in the US". Not even a little. Not one bit. The reality is, regardless of the outcome it forces insurance companies to reform, compete, and stop fucking people every chance they get. The reality is, insurance companies ARE DEATH PANELS - but the vast majority of Americans are too stupid to understand; rather they simply repeat the lies FOX News has said.
The only way you're going to change things for the better is to stop supporting fraud - and that means tell the idiot, piece of shits, who has been bought and paid for by the insurance companies to straighten the fuck up and actually help rather than lying about everything while stealing from our pocket. That's the reality of today - and yet you seem happy to maintain that fraud at any cost.
And lets say you're right. Lets say its the worst bill ever passed. If it is, it will be updated or abolished and insurance companies will have been forced to change. There isn't a down side here. Not one.
People forget, if you're working against the good of the people, you're working against yourself. I didn't vote for Obama, but Obama's failure if still you're failure - assuming you're an American. You have a vested interest. Hoping he fails means you're hoping we all fail. And in this case, if he does fail, we absolutely all do fail; no ifs, ands, or buts.
At the end of the day, you continue your fear mongering, supporting of fraud, and paid-for politics, or you can actually try to help improve America. Sometimes things that sound like a cliches, really are true.
What is it with conservatives alluding to the assassination of Obama and then trailing off? I've had extended family members do this repeatedly too. It's like they hope for it, but don't want to come out and actually say it.
I think it's part of the Kennedy legacy. The heroic president has to be martyred by a nutcase or the story just doesn't end right. Oh, why do *conservatives* allude to the assassination of Obama and then... trail off...
You've fallen for one of the classic Washington Beltway tricks. This chart is for "Discretionary Spending," in other words, the spending the Congress gets to decide on every year. The military budget is required, under the Constitution, to fall into this category. On the other hand, it represents less than 1/4 of the overall 2009 budget, which includes all the programs that are required, by law, to be automatically funded each year, including all of the social programs in the United States. If we take into account that the budget for 2008 was about $3.2T, and for 2009, will approach $4.5T, then we have an estimate that the entire discretionary spending (about $1T) is only going to represent about 22% of the total budget. If the Military is 60% of that, then it represents about 13.2% of the total budget.
So, maybe the 6.6% is wrong (although it's correct for direct Military spending, not including the items you added) but it's still not 60% like you claimed either.
Be careful when you read budgeting numbers from Washington, because they like to hide behind the discretionary term, while bemoaning the fact that they can't do anything about the "non-discretionary" budget items. Which is utterly untrue, of course.
Life, the Universe, and Everything... in my image.
Refused to participate? Pelosi & Reid have literally banned GOP members from all hearing and committee meetings and refuse to publish the actual text of the bill they want to vote on. You really expect republicans to go along with a massive bill that they had no input on creating and haven't even seen?
Do you really want me to list all of the Democrats who pose an obstacle to this bill and see if you still round to 60?
If by working you mean that they pay higher taxes for healthcare, then yes they are working well. I think the biggest issue many of us have is that a large majority of the country already has health insurance, and they are fine with what they have (the polling and statistics support this assertion). So, any "change" may result in those of us with good healthcare paying more for what we already have, in order to support the people who don't have it. I'm not claiming to know what the solution is, but that is the crux of the issue.
Nice lies plagiarized directly from Fox News. Nice.
FTFA: the White House is more intrigued by missions to asteroids and Phobos and Deimos as a precursor to a human landing on the Red Planet in the distant future.
This is great news. A mission to Phobos would make a lot of sense. It has a lower delta V than a moon or Mars landing. It is estimated to require half the propellant and hardware weight compared to a mission to the surface, half the mission cost, and significantly lower risk due to the fact that no surface manned lander is required. More importantly, it has less than half the engineering and development cost (and time). The other big plus is that there is no rotation so the mission would be protected from radiation by Phobos on one side and Mars on the other. The only question is whether the Russians will beat the US and get a manned mission there first. They have been looking at going to Phobos for a while now. They have an unmanned mission going there and returning with samples scheduled for 2011.
Today's vices may be tomorrow's virtues.
And why do you think that is? Its because they've refused to participate in any way, other than enforcing their bought vote. That means their only purpose for participation was to fuck us all. When you work hard to fuck everyone, everyone wants to exclude you. But that happened only AFTER they excluded themselves.
Wow...facts are just shocking. Or perhaps you've not watched any TV or read any papers.
We all want to improve America. What's being questioned is that this healthcare reform bill actually improves America or not.
Something think it is. Others don't.
Frankly, I am more scared with Biden being next in line to become President.
He makes Palin look like an Oxford Scholar.
Given that insurance companies already have 90% of the power required to make sweeping changes and zero changes have been made to date, pretty well supports the insurance companies are enjoying their fleecing and have no intention, in any way, shape, or form, of doing anything other than screwing over idiots that refuse to support change.
Getting to decide what's in their policy is more than 10% of the power in the industry. Hence, they don't have "90% of the power". The rest of your remarks border on delusional. For example,
People forget, if you're working against the good of the people, you're working against yourself. I didn't vote for Obama, but Obama's failure if still you're failure - assuming you're an American. You have a vested interest. Hoping he fails means you're hoping we all fail. And in this case, if he does fail, we absolutely all do fail; no ifs, ands, or buts.
First, I can still benefit from working against the good of people. You already cited the insurance companies. There are plenty of examples of it every day in the US where someone successfully pursues their personal interest (or the interests of some group that they identify with) at the expense of the general good. If you look, you'll see quite a bit of that in the actions of the Obama administration like the Obama-assisted UAW looting of GM and Chrysler, the bailouts of the banks (Obama kept those going), the cap and trade nonsense in absence of evidence of a need, and of course universal health insurance (wake me when the people who use it pay full price for it). Second, Obama is in my view working diligently against the general good. Hence, it is ok for me to hope he fails - hard.
Others don't.
And how many of those "others" have that position because they've been lied to and been told that the position they should have. It appears, the majority. What's left are largely politicians who receive payola either directly or indirectly from insurance companies.
Err, didn't read past my 1st sentence? The bottom right corner of the poster is total budget, not discretionary. In fact ALL of my post minus the first sentence is referring to total budget.
Though I'd also like to point out that this conversation is mostly about discretionary budget. We are talking about things that can be cut relatively easily. So that refers to the discretionary budget.... of which the military makes over 60%.
And no matter how you slice it up, the military still gets 50x what nasa gets (minimum).
Who has more experience then the President we have in office...
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
Hello, I do know most people seem to forget about this, but one thing the ARES/Orion programs make no plans for is to have REPAIR abilities available for space. While the Shuttle was far from perfect, it has been the best space repair vehicle created, and when it is retired, there will be nothing else out there to fix extraordinarily expensive satellites. I know people talk about "saving money", but do you know how expensive it would be to have launched four replacement Hubble Telescopes? Or, countless other devices they've spent days and months repairing in space? Someone SERIOUSLY has to make this an issue for NASA...
The Democrats aren't interested in meeting in the middle.
I don't know what you've been smoking, but if you look at the original healthcare bill proposal, and the completely gutted one we have now, TO APPEASE A RIGHTWING MINORITY who LOST in 2008 because they had complete control for the last 8 years, illegally shut-down input from the minority party by breaking procedural rules, and drove this country off a cliff in the form of a major economic collapse, two wars, the worst domestic security failure in US History (9/11), complete erosion of privacy rights from a massive NSA domestic spying program, and a de-evolution to using NAZI-era "enhanced interrogation techniques" on detainees who have not even been formally charged with crimes, massive budget deficits driven primarily by tax-cuts for SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS, and a long string of massive fraud cases in the banking/investment sector, (not to mention the COMPLETE waste of time that was the Constellation Program - all to SAVE GOVERNMENT JOBS IN A REPUBLICAN'S STATE, rather than looking for a technically appropriate solution to the problem); and you say that the Democrats are unwilling to compromise?
You sir (and I use the term in its loosest possible sense), are living in your own little version of FauxNews-branded reality.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
This is not insightful. There is nothing practical or actionable here; Wondering where the money will come from is a valid concern and completely separate from anything to do with the wars.
I know, it was bad then and all the demonstrations haven't done anything! Even electing another party has only made it worse. It's time to start backing a smaller government 3rd party I guess.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
If the people think spending money on those things is worth it, then they can agree to higher taxes. Deficit spending is not required. Especially with the first two items, you can plan it and budget for it. Maybe the third one can have a temporary deficit (e.g. Japs hit Pearl Harbor and you wanna get the war machine running right now instead of after Congress' next budget), but even that deficit can be undone in the next budget.
If it's worth it, then you pay for it. If you don't want to pay for it, then that undermines your statement that you think it's worth it.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Getting to decide what's in their policy is more than 10% of the power in the industry. Hence, they don't have "90% of the power". The rest of your remarks border on delusional. For example,
You've completely missed the boat. Insurance companies can change today, without a law. Period. But they don't. That's the point. The only reason its not 100% is because they can't stop all the fraud. Thusly, they can literally change the entire problem tomorrow, if only they wanted to. Reality is, they are not going to willingly do anything which cuts their revenue by more than half while at the same time provide the care people have paid for. And yet, that's what the majority of Republicans are fighter for.
People who ignorantly bitch about how much these would-be bills will cost everyone seem completely ignorant of the fact that they are already paying, at a minimum, 50% too much! And in exchange for paying a world premium price, we receive less care. We are literally getting something like 35%-40%, on the dollar, the health care we pay for. And yet you want to fight to maintain the status quo. No wonder so many look at Republican's like idiots.
Once you put your head around the facts, its pretty difficult not to look down on the ignorance everyone is spewing.
Second, Obama is in my view working diligently against the general good. Hence, it is ok for me to hope he fails - hard.
How is improving health care and saving money working against the general good?
Ironically, Obama lied about everything he said he would do on all the major issues. The idiots that voted for Obama are just that - idiots. The fact is, on just about every major issue, Obama has literally followed McCain's plan of attack. There are only two reasons Obama got elected. One, he's black. Two, he lied; and people wanted to hear a lie rather than McCain's truth.
rofl
"War Costing $720 Million Each Day, Group Says"
I say it costs four dollars a week.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
While I love the idea of space exploration, sooner or later our stupid government will either: a) Figure out we're broke, or b) Have their credit card declined. That day is coming. I know people have heard for years and years that the national debt is a problem and we've been able to keep going, but unsustainable trends won't. As a nation, we have incurred massive amounts of debts (public and private) with very little to show for it. The debt did not go toward investment in future growth, it was consumed. We can't afford to spend what we spend on space now.
How is improving health care and saving money working against the general good?
Neither activity is being done by Obama.
We have a winner!
Amazing how many people seem to have their "information" spoon fed from Fox News.
Because not much has really changed. Where's my bailout?
Free Martian Whores!
Neither activity is being done by Obama.
Factually, how is that statement even close to being true; especially since I've already addressed the issue and your statement alone, appears to be false at every angle. Especially considering the almost sole exception of health care, Obama has followed the Republican plan of action on just about everything that matters. That's the reason Obama's ratings are so low. Its also the reason I can point and laugh at just about every Democrat while saying, "I told you so"; literally.
In short, you're saying Republicans are working hard to be against everything US. Makes one wonder why you're anti-Obama.
Seriously, care to elaborate? Thus far, the only counter argument I've read here are the factually incorrect lies spewed forth from the likes of Fox News. Care to support your position with something other than known lies and irrational fears?
Social security, medicare and medicaid make up 40% of the overall budget, with unemployment/welfare/interest payments making up another 20% (they're considered mandatory spending as opposed to discretionary).
Although, you are right that Defense & War spending does make up a majority of discretionary spending (and around 25% of the overall budget including Iraq and Afghanistan).
Though I'd also like to point out that this conversation is mostly about discretionary budget. We are talking about things that can be cut relatively easily. So that refers to the discretionary budget.... of which the military makes over 60%.
Your side of the conversion, but not his side. My view is that if you're not talking about the whole budget which is a lot bigger than discretionary spending, then you aren't serious. Having said that, current military spending is a big piece of the current overall budget and hence contributes to the budget problems.
And how many of those "others" have that position because they've been lied to and been told that the position they should have. It appears, the majority.
It can be easily explained. People don't like moochers. With universal publicly funded health care, people pay for every act of stupidity and human weakness that occurs. At least with current insurance, the companies don't have to cover the really stupid stuff.
We are already paying for those "moochers." In fact, that's already part of both insurance coverage and taxes.
I'm anti-war, but pro-military. Hell, I'm a veteran. I agree with Teddy Roosevelt's assessment that one should "walk softly and carry a big stick". When the Afganistan's Taliban's Bin Laden attacked us, we were right to go to war, although they did two things wrong. The Congress should have actually declared war and they should have just gone in and laid the place to waste and left.
Iraq, otoh, was and is an unnessary, wasteful clusterfuck. Iraq posed no threat whatever to us. There was no real reason at all for us to attack Iraq. That million dollars spent every two minutes fighting that war is a complete waste, and a worse waste is the lives of the servicepeople who died in that godforsaken desert.
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Well, since the current Copenhagen climate negotiations aren't progressing well for us all, we might as well part this rock. Of course, as they say, when you immigrate your problems immigrate with you..
Especially considering the almost sole exception of health care, Obama has followed the Republican plan of action on just about everything that matters. That's the reason Obama's ratings are so low.
That's Obama's tough luck. Or maybe gullibility. Hope it loses him a lot of votes in 2012. Say... you think Hillary has a chance in 2012? No way she could be as bad as four more years of Hope and Change.
So, can you just "round up" when it comes to blocking a filibuster? Seeing as that's the only point in talking about "60" Senators, what's the point in saying they have 60 (rounded up) if they don't actually have 60?
I also want to add, from an insurance perspective, we're already paying for those moochers at extortion and fraud rate health care costs. The same is also true for tax costs.
In short, the moochers perspective is only an issue for those people who have been lied to by the likes of Fox News.
Net cost between plans - zero! In fact, if anything, its more likely the net cost will actually save us money.
but the combat is essentially over...
Like, 'Mission Accomplished', a-la aircraft carrier over?
Hmmm. I heard a lot of jabber back in Nov 08 that said that the Republicans were irrelevant and a dying breed and that the public would get things done in a fashion that suits them without all the baggage that the GOP carries. Now when something doesn't go through you want to blame the Republicans? Huh? I thought that we were liberated from Republican tyranny and that the heavens were going to open up and manna was to pour from the skies. What happened?
Mathematically the Republicans mean nothing. Anyone attempting to use them as a scapegoat is just as irrelevant as they are.
With crap like this going on can't people see why the two party system is a complete fraud that is doing nothing but bleeding the citizen? We hear this same old garbage from both sides and people keep defending it when it's their side looking bad for it. Take the blinders off and join us in the human race where we can learn to resolve these issues when we finally stop doing the Red and Blue goosestep.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
There's very little of that. $16.5b in TANF (almost all of which is spent on things that get unemployed folks back in the workforce, which is an investment, not an expenditure), $36.4b in food stamps. I'd say having my tax money going to keep people from breaking into my house for money to buy food is a good expenditure.
The charity we should stop is the welfare that goes to big, rich corporations (like IBM and Kodak), which dwarfs what goes to the poor.
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Actually Bush DID utter a phrase over and over and over when he ran for prez that was pretty much shown to be a lie when he realized he didn't need the Dems.
"I'm a uniter not a divider"
This transcript
And this one
are two of the many many examples of Bush running on a platform that gave us all the impression he would work with both sides of the isle.
I cannot see how much of any republican would have won the 08 election.
Who said anything about fillibustering? You're the first person to bring that up, AFAICT.
Biden? He's goofy, but not stupid. Palin is scary. A she-Bush on steroids. (Or should I say estrogen?)
I tried smoking hash once, but I couldn't get the corned beef to light.
Free Martian Whores!
OK how have I, as someone who wants government totally out of the medical industry, been lied to? And how has that affected my decision?
Sorry to interrupt the political sniping. It's interesting to me that TFA says "The new program would jettison Ares 1". Does this mean Jupiter could be considered, or is this a hard reset going back to square one? TFA is unclear.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
By definition, all wars are wasteful clusterfucks. Unfortunately, the status quo of Saddam and his Ba'ath party could not be trusted to remain non-agressive. Honestly, it only seems to have been an unnecessary because we've sat on our ass for so long. His ass should have been capped long long ago regardless if 911 occurred or not.
If that's what you think, then I'm fine with you thinking that. who am I to decide that this or that war was the right thing to do and that there can not be any possibly reasonable argument against it? We may disagree, but such is life.
The problems I have are with people who think war is NEVER an answer, that violence should never be used, and that wacko people (no matter what their beliefs) who want to kill others for power or glory can actually be reasoned with, that they are just misunderstood, that they had an abusive past, or whatever.
Part of the problem is that people think we actually can *get* credit from someone. See, there has been a successful campaign to paint China as our creditor. You need to check out the Federal Reserve. They are the ones that create those things called Federal Reserve Notes... That's right, they *create* them with the push of a button. Guess who is buying our debt right now so that we can continue to spend freely? That's right, the Federal Reserve. Where do they get all that money you ask? They create it from thin air. When you or I create money (counterfeiting) we go to jail, when the Federal Reserve does it, it is called saving the economy.
Did we lose the plans for the Saturn V?
> the problem was she couldn't handle the media and was eaten alive.
Yeah, the media was REALLY tricky when pressing her for answers on all those nasty questions like,"What magazines do you read?" What kind of jerk wouldn't take, "All of them," as an answer? I'm sure that if she were president right now, we'd be having news stories like this one, discussing the depth of her thinking.
Running a country isn't all that hard, after all. Everyone knows that all you have to do is hire a bunch of people who agree with your politics and let them work everything out.
I also want to add, from an insurance perspective, we're already paying for those moochers at extortion and fraud rate health care costs. The same is also true for tax costs.
Unlike government, insurance companies spend considerable effort and money to combat fraud.
Biden puts his foot in his mouth from time to time, but he was also the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations committee and was widely considered the Senate's foremost expert on foreign relations. I'm legitimately curious: what statements did he make that made him appear ignorant to you?
Leaving aside the bank bailouts? That does seem rather convenient, as the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 was signed into law by Bush, with most of the money to be spent by the budgets of his successors. It is absurd to place the blame for this legislation on Obama.
I'm not sure how "[Biden] makes Palin look like an Oxford Scholar" can be modded insightful. I will agree that Biden makes the odd gaffe but he is unquestionably better informed. He has chaired senate committees on the judiciary and foreign relations which will have exposed him to a whole gamut of issues that Sarah Palin may not even have conceived of. Let's not confuse willful ignorance with an otherwise intelligent person getting caught with their foot in their mouth from time to time!
Disclosure: Note that I'm not American and don't have a particular interest in either the Republicans or the Democrats. From where I sit both parties do little to effect any real improvement over the status quo. And I think Obama has done little to back up his rhetoric of hope and change from the election campaign
I am not one to typically decry Slashdot antics in general, but I have to say that I am, frankly, appalled at what has come to pass in this thread. This news release, available on very few space news outlets currently, is in regards to the future of a government funded piece of space hardware that Slashdotters have been both decrying and joyously praising since I first started posting on this website more than a year ago. We have discussed every major development of the Ares line of launch vehicles since its inception. We have argued, passionately at times, about how stupid or how great NASA and Congress both are for deciding upon this launch system in the first place. We have followed almost every single news update regarding the Augustine Commission since it was first assigned its task. It seems, to me, that we had quite a bit of interest and excitement for news regarding this particular topic as an online community.
Nonetheless, in the short time since this story has been posted, the number of comments modded up that were completely and 100% offtopic is absolutely atrocious. This story was, by far, the most interesting headline I saw on slashdot today. Rather than getting an interesting look into a group of Nerd's thoughts and ideas regarding this new development, I have watched this thread turn into an absolutely childish monstrosity of political bullshitting regarding everything from healtcare to the fiscal habits of Republicrats and blah blah blah blah blah. If I wanted to know about all that crap I would have turned on CSPAN.
For shame slashdotters. For. Fucking. Shame.
Motorcycles, Robots, Space Gossip and More!
The charity we should stop is the welfare that goes to big, rich corporations (like IBM and Kodak), which dwarfs what goes to the poor.
Why? The Big Rich EEEEEVIL Corporations actually produce stuff. If I get a say in whether my money goes to productive people or the ones who produce nothing ... guess how I'm voting?
Of course, given the choice, I'd say screw 'em both. The government shouldn't be involved in wealth redistribution at all, regardless of who's getting the money.
Thanks :) That was the same thought I had. I'm not sure how anyone can look at a claim which seems to have been pulled whole from the asses of a bunch of anti-war quakers, and unquestioningly accept it as a proven fact. This is why critical thinking needs to be taught in schools!
I don't think a lot of people feel that war is never an answer. However a lot of us feel that we spend far, far more on war than we actually need to, and that it'd be prudent to maybe focus on consolidating and reducing our forces to a defensive role.
Its frustrating when people act as if we want to get rid of it completely. Its also frustrating when people respond to nuanced criticism of our military spending with, "Well, funding the military is the federal government's job!" Of course it is, but that doesn't mean we need to spend quite so much.
I would say NASA rockets is the coke and the military needs of the country is the food.
Listen to Obama's speech; he clearly asked for bipartisan cooperation and collaboration. It's the Republicans who have been trying to kill the bill, not because they object to its content (although many of them do), but rather because the White House will count the passage of any bill as a political victory for the President, and the Republicans don't want to give him that victory.
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$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
The atmosphere in DC was poisoned long before health care became an issue. Whatever good will Obama may have had with the Republicans in Congress was pissed away when the Democrats rammed a $787,000,000,000 "stimulus" bill that wasn't through the Congress. They neither sought or desired input from the minority party.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
“The decision is not going to make anyone gasp,” said one source in the White House,....
Then we can rule out any significant breakthrough or giant step change, such as a million + pound payload, two stage/two motor with extremely simplified internals, with initial cost per pound to LEO about 25% (at best, possibly as little as 10% of this estimate; 2.5% that of Ares-H) of that of the best optimistic estimate that the Ares heavy would approach after 12 launches. Some of the technical details that were far less complex and more reliable than any in use or planned were panned a 'not interesting' and used as cause to dismiss the design, although some of those same details made it into later designs that flew.
The design was done for Aerojet in 1962 by Robert Truax http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/searagon.htm The revolutionary sea launch aspect was the one portion actually tested in an earlier model. The simplicity of the design would make it possible to take from paper to LEO in 5 years. This is just one such design that could be retrieved from history where it was buried in favor of corporate welfare. This is one of the few actually done by a documented and well respected pioneer of rocketry http://neverworld.net/truax/ .
No gasps, no Salvage 1.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
On Noes...
The past and current administration seems to fail at health care, economics, military/wars and over all worldly policies. I know, lets give NASA funds and start a new race on space..
Shifting publics focus in 3..2..1..
And remember: the government does not have to adhere to normal accounting principles, or else its annual losses would be tremendously higher.
The issue isn't that the accounting principals used by that the government are that horrible, in particular, the way all social security debt is valued as an expense today. It's really that FASB rules have gotten to be absolutely absurdly conservative for firms. Yes, there were Enrons out there to guard against, but, the way inventories are valued today, and expenses are handled, is really a giant joke and actually makes companies worse than they really are, and that actually did help provoke the banking crisis.
This is my sig.
You must be forgetting about the GOP Congress in the 90s that had some balanced budgets.
Yes, and what did the GOP do with its libertarian plank? The social conservatives gave them the boot. Bob Dole, got the boot. God forbid, he raised the social security withholding tax to balance the trust fund. We had Dick Armey, got the boot. We had Trent Lott, got the boot. We had Newt Gingrich, got the boot. John McCain, got the boos. John Kasich, got the boot. George Voinovich, abandoned by the party.
All of our so-called RINO Republicans were the ones that balanced the budget. The social conservative crop we have out there now is the ones that gave us the fiscal catastrophe we have.
This is my sig.
Too bad, too, seeing as dealing with the media would have been completely irrelevant to her job as President.
Who cares what mcgrew says? He's a senile, shallow, self-involved old coot who thinks he's an expert on any topic you care to name.
Corporations actually produce stuff.
Yeah, like multi million dollar bonuses and pay to their executives, while many of these corporations have low level employees that are eligible for food stamps (WalMart). If they're producing something, they should be making a profit. I have no problem with public or private charity for the poor, but I have a big problem with my tax money going to charity for billionaires.
Corporations aren't evil (unless they're headed by sociopaths), that're amoral.
Free Martian Whores!
Unlike government, insurance companies spend considerable effort and money to combat fraud.
which is why, contrary to the lies pushed by the Republicans, the "government option" was always to be a private, for profit, company.
So you hate Obama for trying to improve things. You hate Obama for doing the only thing he can. You hate Obama for going against his campaign promises (aka lied) and doing things that actually make sense (McCain path). You hate Obama for following the path set by Republicans. The simple fact is, his campaign lies were never an option because only a fucking idiot would act on most of his campaign promises. He said those things to get elected by morons that want to believe lies rather than facts and reality.
So what would you like to actually see done? Millions more out of work? Terrorist attacks in the US and on our allies? Continued insurance fraud? What are the great solutions here?
which is why, contrary to the lies pushed by the Republicans, the "government option" was always to be a private, for profit, company.
Then it would be unneeded since the US already has private, for profit insurance companies. From what I've seen, the health reform plans backed by Obama all have a public insurance option and they need one in order to implement universal (or perhaps near universal) health care.
So you hate Obama for trying to improve things. You hate Obama for doing the only thing he can. You hate Obama for going against his campaign promises (aka lied) and doing things that actually make sense (McCain path). You hate Obama for following the path set by Republicans. The simple fact is, his campaign lies were never an option because only a fucking idiot would act on most of his campaign promises. He said those things to get elected by morons that want to believe lies rather than facts and reality.
Nope. I don't hate Obama for anything. And it's not clear to me why you think he's "trying to improve things" or "doing the only thing he can". The first is unprovable (we'll never be sure what his intent is) and the second is laughable. The Democrats control both houses of Congress. They can do a hell of a lot more than they have. Finally, I'm a firm believer in the value of making and holding to campaign promises. I won't vote for someone when I can't figure out what they'll do.
So what would you like to actually see done? Millions more out of work? Terrorist attacks in the US and on our allies? Continued insurance fraud? What are the great solutions here?
None of the above. Let's start with the recession. Sure it's too bad that millions are out of work. But who will rehire them when bad companies don't get swept out of the way for good companies to take over? I believe in economic Darwinism at the business level. When government implements a stream of anti-business regulation and bailouts? When government greatly increases government bureaucracy and takes over parts of the economy?
Whatever else you can say about Bush, no further terrorist attacks occurred in the US on his watch. What is Obama doing that is comparable?
Insurance fraud and other aspects of the health care mess are solvable using rather mundane approaches. For example, reduce malpractice liability, increase supply of doctors and hospitals, reduce or transfer the financial liability that comes from free emergency room care (a valid solution for so-called "universal health care"), reduce the scope and payouts for Medicare/Medicaid, remove the tax writeoff for employer-based medical benefits, eliminate any government requirements and mandates for employer-purchased health insurance, and find a way to allow insurance companies to compete in all states. Oh, and by making insurance a private matter, we make insurance fraud a private matter. Since the insurance companies have both an interest in preventing insurance fraud and the power to act, we need go no further with that problem.
Then it would be unneeded since the US already has private, for profit insurance companies. From what I've seen, the health reform plans backed by Obama all have a public insurance option and they need one in order to implement universal (or perhaps near universal) health care.
There is a difference between profit and raping customers. Seems you prefer the later. At a minimum today, you receiving roughly 35% of the health care coverage for which you actually pay for.
Also, very few of the bills being pushed have had a public option and none of the ones being pushed today have such an option. Rather, the current bills intend to provide x-million additional new customers to existing insurance companies.
I must say you answers surprise me.
And it's not clear to me why you think he's "trying to improve things" or "doing the only thing he can".
This is a very surprising comment, and in a most negative way. I'm not sure what I can say here that doesn't sound condescending. How is health care reform not, "trying to improve things." You may disagree on his approach but I honestly can't see how you can saw the above with a straight face.
I'm yet further confused because you bash Obama for his policies and then you pat Bush on the back. The confusing part is that you're bashing Obama for following what Bush laid out - in almost every case. This is why time and time again it seems you have an irrational hatred of Obama.
Whatever else you can say about Bush, no further terrorist attacks occurred in the US on his watch. What is Obama doing that is comparable?
Ummm....more of the same? He's literally following McCain's stated campaign plans, which is only slightly different from the path set forward by Bush. In other words, you're very clearly hypocritically bashing Obama for following the Republican path.
The rest of your solutions are completely unattainable or just plain crazy. I assume you don't realize the AARP is one of the largest citizen lobbying groups in the US. Going against them means losing elections for a long time.
There is a difference between profit and raping customers.
The difference is which label you use to describe the activity. For the public option, the corresponding choice will be "losing money" or "raping customers". So much better.
At a minimum today, you receiving roughly 35% of the health care coverage for which you actually pay for.
That's an interesting opinion.
Also, very few of the bills being pushed have had a public option and none of the ones being pushed today have such an option. Rather, the current bills intend to provide x-million additional new customers to existing insurance companies.
Where is the money to pay for these new customers going to come from?
This is a very surprising comment, and in a most negative way. I'm not sure what I can say here that doesn't sound condescending. How is health care reform not, "trying to improve things." You may disagree on his approach but I honestly can't see how you can saw the above with a straight face.
"Health care reform" is a label being inappropriately applied by you and others to the bills before Congress.
Ummm....more of the same? He's literally following McCain's stated campaign plans, which is only slightly different from the path set forward by Bush. In other words, you're very clearly hypocritically bashing Obama for following the Republican path.
If Obama were following the path you claimed he were following, then yes, you'd have a point.
The rest of your solutions are completely unattainable or just plain crazy. I assume you don't realize the AARP is one of the largest citizen lobbying groups in the US. Going against them means losing elections for a long time.
The AARP says it is one of the largest citizen lobbying groups in the US. It provides a convenient way to acquire discounts. Its lobbying power is grossly exaggerated.
Nice counter, countering nothing and saying nothing.
You've pretty well confirmed everything I've said.
Nice counter, countering nothing and saying nothing.
You've pretty well confirmed everything I've said.
I see you lead by example. Well, I'll elaborate. A principle part of the argument I was replying to was the dogmatic assertion that the bills in question were "health care reform". I simply pointed out that I disagree with that earlier in this thread, I explained the reasons why. Anyone who has even the slightest experience with the euphemisms common to titles of legislative bills or other political rhetoric, knows that just because something is called "health care reform" doesn't mean it has anything to do with health care reform.
OTOH, baldly asserting that Obama is "following the path of Bush" is merely ignorant. Bush would not have reformed health care, tried to implement CO2 emissions cap and trade, or a number of other Obama priorities. We know this because he had eight years (six of which supported by a Republican congress) in which to act and didn't do anything significant with these things.
Finally, even a cursory study of the AARP can determine that they claim everyone over the age of 50 as a member. There's no way they have that many reliable members who will vote as directed by AARP.
Great questions considering its all been answered and your assertion is known to false.
Next time, just say you have no clue what the hell is going on, want to irrationally rant regardless of the facts, and have no interest in debating and/or learning. It will save everyone lots of time.
I have no problem with public or private charity for the poor, but I have a big problem with my tax money going to charity for billionaires.
Look on the bright side: at least you're halfway right.
Great questions considering its all been answered and your assertion is known to false.
Ok, the public option appears to be off the table for now (though it was in the House bill at one time) in both bills passed by Congress. I grant you that, but not your earlier claim that no public option was ever considered. Your assertion that we're receiving 35% of the health care we pay for, is false. Health insurance is too competitive a market to have a 65% profit margin. Going back further, I see more claims of your that I corrected.
Next time, just say you have no clue what the hell is going on, want to irrationally rant regardless of the facts, and have no interest in debating and/or learning. It will save everyone lots of time.
Follow your own advice.