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Laser Fusion Passes Major Hurdle

chill writes "The National Ignition Facility at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory has performed their first controlled fusion experiments using all 192 lasers. While still not ramped up to full power, the first experiments proved very fruitful. The lasers create a lot of plasma in the target container and researchers worried that the plasma would interfere with the ability of the target to absorb enough energy to ignite. These experiments show that not only does enough energy make it through, the plasma can be manipulated to increase the uniformity of compression. Ramping up of power is due to start in May." The project lead, Dr. Sigfried Glenzer, is "confident that with everything in place, ignition is on the horizon. He added, quite simply, 'It's going to happen this year.'"

354 comments

  1. So... by jellomizer · · Score: 2, Funny

    In 5 years I can have Mr. Fusion where I can put junk to power my flying car...
    Sweet.

    I just hope that fax machines don't come back into style and have multiple for every house.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:So... by Lord+Byron+Eee+PC · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Clean, safe, American-made, no foreign oil, low level of pollutants, and a reasonable amount of entropy (heat) released. Sounds like a winner to me.

    2. Re:So... by ledow · · Score: 1

      You're fired.

    3. Re:So... by d3ac0n · · Score: 4, Funny

      Just don't take it any faster than 85 miles an hour.

      Unless you want to visit the '80's, the '50's, or the old west.

      --
      Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
    4. Re:So... by CRCulver · · Score: 5, Insightful

      However, just as with fission, it's likely nothing will be built without massive amounts of subsidy, and it will pay off only in a span of decades. Unless the public and officials are willing to think longterm, fusion is going to be delayed regardless of whether the technical hurdles are overcome.

    5. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In 5 years I can have Mr. Fusion where I can put junk to power my flying car...
      Sweet.

      I just hope that fax machines don't come back into style and have multiple for every house.

      Only if you can get the sharks with the laser beams on their heads into the tank.

    6. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do I think the entire process will be patented or protected to stop anyone else doing it?

      The technical hurdles will be nothing compared to the non-renewable energy industry attempt to block/exploit it.

    7. Re:So... by ElSupreme · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What is wrong with a pay off in decades. This "profit now" attitude is going to kill America. You think the interstate system paid off sooner than decades? You think the interstate system was a failure?

      --
      My addiction: Arguing with idiots. AKA Slashdot!
    8. Re:So... by dorre · · Score: 1

      This is definitely not just a monetary issue. It is a political and military issue as well.

      Creating safe, sustainable energy production, without need of any kind of import of any kind (oil, gas, coal, biofuels) would make any country a LOT less dependent on others. This has been one of the Holy grails in politics the last 5 decades.

      I find it VERY hard to believe that successful fusion technologies would have problems with finding funding for fullscale operation :) Especially in the US.

    9. Re:So... by delinear · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What's really scary, being a kid at the time the movies came out, is that pretty soon the "future" they visit in the second movie will be our past (we're only five years away)...

    10. Re:So... by amplt1337 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You think the interstate system was a failure?
      Well... given that the existence of the interstate infrastructure created the incentives that destroyed the locomotive as the main means of in-land shipping in America, and in other ways promoted the reliance on the automobile that's ended public transit in most areas and greatly exacerbated global warming... possibly yes. : p

      But I think the parent's point was actually the same as yours -- cynicism about Everybody Else's willingness to do something that'll have a profit after the next quarterly earnings report.

      --
      Freedom isn't free; its price is the well-being of others.
    11. Re:So... by Sebilrazen · · Score: 3, Informative

      Just don't take it any faster than 85 miles an hour.

      Unless you want to visit the '80's, the '50's, or the old west.

      It's actually 88 miles per hour.

      --
      "There are no facts, only interpretations." --Friedrich Nietzsche.
    12. Re:So... by delinear · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's nothing wrong with a pay off in decades other than it will effectively kill off the investment that's required now. The governments and heads of corporations don't want to feather someone else's nest, so they'll constantly make short term decisions. I really wish we could have political parties who looked to the future good of our countries instead of their short term political survival, but experience seems to indicate otherwise. They'll rarely decide to potentially gift their rivals 30 years in the future with incredibly cheap, clean fuel. It's part of the reason we don't have an abundance of nuclear reactors today (and also partly due to the green/Simpsons effects, oh and that explody thing that happened in Chernobyl). Hopefully the big fuel companies will be shifting more investment into these technologies if they want to avoid being redundant when oil is too expensive to obtain.

    13. Re:So... by uuddlrlrab · · Score: 1

      Yeah, special interest groups wouldn't have any impact on this at all. Especially now that corporate contributions to political smear- I mean, opinion films has been lifted, I'm sure all the oil, natural gas, and coal groups will be glad to jump on it's back- I mean, aboard.

      --
      Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
    14. Re:So... by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      Don't you think that companies like BP and such will embrace this to make oil cheaper ? Oil is not just used for energy, there are other major uses :
      1) plastics (and additives for everything else)
      2) medicines
      3) fertilizer

      Using basically unlimited power, perhaps even Co2 + H2o => oil processes can become possible.

    15. Re:So... by jeffmeden · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Great scott! 192 lasers! We are going to need MORE SHARKS!

    16. Re:So... by wwfarch · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yeah but the speedometer has some inaccuracies so keep it below 85 to be safe.

    17. Re:So... by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      Looks like a tabletop fusion wanabe. It is made of laser, that could teoreticaly fit a smaler volume, and pelets of deuterium, that is quite easy to gather from nature. It may quite well lead to fusion machines so easy to create that the governemnt couldn't hope to control. Of course, that is more than 20 years on the future :)

      Anyway, does anybody know what are the results of deuterion fusion (is it He4 or it irradiates something)? And about the pelets composed of deuterium and tritium, I didn't know one could solidify tritium.

    18. Re:So... by jank1887 · · Score: 2, Funny

      speedometer calibration is never perfect. (just ask a traffic court). He was allowing for some leeway.

    19. Re:So... by wwfarch · · Score: 1

      This is only the Mr. Fusion. We still need the flux capacitor or this won't be a concern.

    20. Re:So... by jank1887 · · Score: 1

      and imagine what the military-industrial-complex will think once we no longer have oil as a reason for war.

    21. Re:So... by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      Why would they want to make it cheaper.

      It takes the same amount of money to pull it out of the ground, no matter how much they end up selling it for.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    22. Re:So... by rinoid · · Score: 1

      American's don't think long term. The corporatist culture of "get it down now, for as little expense possible" is like a plague on any notion of process and thought.

      Witness the destruction of a perfectly good public transportation system in the 50s. Since the late 70s "oil crisis" cities, states, regions, and the country have been subsidizing massive public transportation initiatives. In fact, there's more stimulus spending for the New England states and rail just announced.


      Right now a good portion of the country blame an administration only 12 months old for the entire deficit! Run up during 8 years after the country achieved a surplus. Give the guy a fucking break -- he inherited 2 wars and an imminent depression largely due to money sucking greed whores.

    23. Re:So... by Sebilrazen · · Score: 5, Funny

      It was Doc Fucking Brown, not only was that speedometer perfect, it was digital.

      --
      "There are no facts, only interpretations." --Friedrich Nietzsche.
    24. Re:So... by cellurl · · Score: 1

      I am just grateful Obama isn't involved... (at least not in the news on this announcement...)

      Fusion is alot cooler than our recently announced US Bullet-train-wannabee...

      Free Speed limit database
      jim

    25. Re:So... by plague911 · · Score: 1

      The same goes for any power generation plant. They all take decades to pay off. Personally I think we should just take the nationalized energy approach due to the high up front costs. (Its either that or give away money so private companies can do it) but ya...

    26. Re:So... by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      Yes, the fuel/energy companies of today are used to long term payoffs. They will be the ones making these investments. Assuming there aren't liability potentials with Fusion (insurance liabilities are whats really hampering nuclear, and the feds inability to see into the future isn't helping). These companies will be investing. But don't expect them to invest until the science is proven either.

    27. Re:So... by PPalmgren · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, it killed passenger trains. Rail is the preferred method of inland transportation in the container shipping industry, and is cheaper than trucking. As a matter of fact, the reason passenger trains are so expensive is because cargo shipped on rail is that beneficial to everyone involved that passenger trains can't compete with it.

    28. Re:So... by geekthesteve · · Score: 1

      Economics 101 - If the price is cheaper the consumption will go up.

    29. Re:So... by Lithdren · · Score: 1

      Hence why you dont take it over 85, a slight gust of wind from the back and you're dodging dirty road bandits and driving trains off the sides of clifts. Also, dont buy Goodyear Tires, every time I hit 88 MPH the damn things burst into flames...

    30. Re:So... by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 1

      It'll be banned so fast that it'll make your head spin.

    31. Re:So... by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      It takes a lot of blood, sweat and tears + negotiations with religions ("states") that still stone women. Personally, I'm pretty convinced they'd like to skip that part.

    32. Re:So... by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      Especially on oil. A lot of people would like to drive a lot more, but hold back due to oil prices. Seems to me the perfect candidate to make cheaper.

    33. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well... given that the existence of the interstate infrastructure created the incentives that destroyed the locomotive as the main means of in-land shipping in America

      I wish. If only that was true I wouldn't have to be stuck at the train tracks on my way to work.

    34. Re:So... by The+Wooden+Badger · · Score: 1

      Completely unrelated to the offtopic post, but the Top Gear lap with the Ferrari FXX had an average speed of 89 mph.

      --
      Heroscape, it's like legos combined with anachronistic wargames.
    35. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would be 85 metric miles per hour.

    36. Re:So... by HeckRuler · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Don't worry, as soon as anything explodes, someone dies, or they find a "scientist" who can worry and fret, Foxnews will point out how Obama's DOE is funding crazy apocalypse engines.

    37. Re:So... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      The oil company doesn't get all the money when they sell the oil. For instance, look at the deal Shell just got in Iraq. They receive $1.39/barrel extracted. They own other parts of the distribution system as well, so that's not all they get, but just looking at that number you can see that if they have a cheap energy source that lets them save 10 cents per barrel in costs, that's a huge deal in their profitability (of that part of the pipeline).

    38. Re:So... by Asclepius99 · · Score: 1

      That may be a problem in the US, but I have no doubt other more progressive countries will begin using it. And there's no way we're not gonna follow if we see someone else start to implement a large scale operation to kick oil. Plus, I think it will be far more likely that big oil companies like Exxon will jump onto of this technology if it's proven viable. I mean, they'll need money to implement it. So Exxon invests in and sets up Exxon Laser Fusion Centers that power your city. So what if they can't make billions off gas, they'll make billions powering your houses/businesses. Keep in mind that big oil companies are doing serious research into alternative fuels already, it's unlikely that they won't get into the next big thing in power as long as they still have control over it.

    39. Re:So... by compro01 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They can still fight over the rare earth elements you need to build stuff like this.

      </pessimist>

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    40. Re:So... by rhsanborn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unfortunately, we need a populace that is capable of looking to the future as well. Without that, we'll never get the political structure you're describing. People don't vote for politicians who spend money on long term projects.

    41. Re:So... by allcaps · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Obama didn't 'inherit' anything; he was a senator for some time before becoming president, and voted for plenty of the things that led to the current problems.

    42. Re:So... by Grygus · · Score: 1

      and imagine what the military-industrial-complex will think once we no longer have oil as a reason for war.

      The reason for war is completely irrelevant to the military-industrial complex. That's the politicians' problem, and they never claimed oil was the reason. Real reasons aren't relevant, either; war just is, and it probably always will be, and that's all the military-industrial complex needs to know.

    43. Re:So... by glebovitz · · Score: 1

      Actually, air travel in the U.S. played an very large part in destroying passenger service. Given the distances involved, it was much more effective to fly then to travel by rail. A Harvard Business Review article in the 70s pointed at the passenger rail industry's inability to respond to air travel as a threat was a major contribution to passenger rail's demise.

      The Interstates definitely helped to create urban sprawl.

    44. Re:So... by AshtangiMan · · Score: 1

      While I don't disagree on it's face, I would like to see some citations. But parent poster is correct that Obama did inherit 2 wars, and was against the Iraq war, but gets a free pass in a way because he was not in the Senate when that vote was taken. Plenty of Democrats did vote for it, as did plenty of Republicans. So at least in the Senate Iraq is in no way a partisan war.

    45. Re:So... by maxume · · Score: 1

      You really think that the recent legal decision is going to dramatically change anything? Really?

      I figure a bunch of new political ads might fool a few people, but they are going to push a roughly equal number of people towards the correct level of cynicism.

      So unless there are a bunch of even better liars waiting in the wings, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    46. Re:So... by rossdee · · Score: 1

      I thought a metric mile was 1500 metres. (At least thats the distance that has replaced the mile in international sport, like the olympics)

    47. Re:So... by vtcodger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ***Don't you think that companies like BP and such will embrace this to make oil cheaper ? Oil is not just used for energy, there are other major uses :***

      By the time this results in practical generation facilities, oil will almost certainly be both scarce compared to the number of people that "need" (i.e. want) it and expensive.

      BP, Esso, et al know that. Unlike our politicians, auto makers, economists and planners, the oil companies deal in long term realities. Probably BP will own large chunks of the engineering, construction, operating and distribution companies that handle fusion power. ... assuming that fusion power ever turns out to be commercially viable.

      I'm fine with that BTW. All I really want to see is enough rational conduct in the system to ensure stability.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    48. Re:So... by feandil · · Score: 1

      come on, that's naive. the real reason for wars is always power, and power nowadays comes with money. and politicians follow what they are told by the people in charge.
      it's not oil they are after at the moment, it's controlling the power of the dollar. in the future it will be wars about water or any kind of expensive resource

    49. Re:So... by Carbaholic · · Score: 1

      I like that this post is moded insightful.

    50. Re:So... by Fuji+Kitakyusho · · Score: 1

      I was thinking the same thing about Arthur C. Clarke's "2001: A Space Odyssey" and the 2010 sequel.

    51. Re:So... by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is really no such thing as a metric mile. What was once the "one mile" race (~1.6km) was turned into a 1500m race for the Olympics. And some stupid bitches that can't speak properly call it the "metric mile". There is no suck thing as a metric mile. There's a proper name for that: 1.5km.

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    52. Re:So... by AmazingRuss · · Score: 1

      Yet, here we still are, flinging the odd bit of metal at mars.

    53. Re:So... by hardburn · · Score: 2, Informative

      Rare earth elements aren't actually that rare, and many are quite abundant. It's just one of those holdover terms, like using "atom" for describing something that isn't indivisible.

      --
      Not a typewriter
    54. Re:So... by yoden · · Score: 1

      We 'need' economic stimulus and everyone wants to look like they're driving alternative technologies and and clean energy. The main albatross for fusion is the decades of broken promises...

      --
      Computers can make otherwise intelligent people stupid, much like slashdot.
    55. Re:So... by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      That's funny, I was thinking Escape from New York (which takes place in 1997).

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    56. Re:So... by Scragglykat · · Score: 1

      Have you been to New York lately?

    57. Re:So... by AmazingRuss · · Score: 1

      No, I'm a law abiding citizen.

    58. Re:So... by Ironchew · · Score: 1

      negotiations with religions ("states") that still stone women.

      Hey, I know Christianity is a little barbaric, but give Canada a break. I don't think they condone stoning.

    59. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is exactly why it'll never happen.

    60. Re:So... by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

      What scares me most is the bad future they didn't visit after realising the present was FUBAR.

      We're living in that timeline already, but we don't have any time machines to fix it.

    61. Re:So... by uuddlrlrab · · Score: 1

      ...it's unlikely that they won't get into the next big thing in power as long as they still have control over it.

      And that is exactly what worries me, especially with everyone going off the deep end about "Bad government! Deregulate everything!" It's like the entire period of '01 to '09 just went *poof! vanish* from our collective memory in terms of actual details and just who did what.

      --
      Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
    62. Re:So... by Lord+Byron+Eee+PC · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your comment + your signature gave me a laugh.

      It's perfect! It's a fact that we're going 88mph. No wait, it's just an interpretation!

    63. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't find it that scary, i find it more underwhelming.
      The world will be nowhere near as cool as that one in at least a few decades, some stuff obviously not for longer unless some funky breakthrough in science happens any time soon... maybe LHC, fingers crossed.

    64. Re:So... by khellendros1984 · · Score: 1

      Language is defined by use, not by properness. If "metric mile" gains significant use as meaning "1500 meters", then that will become the official definition of the word.

      --
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
    65. Re:So... by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      It's the profit margin * unit sales that's important.

      Economics 110 - increased consumption does not necessarily mean increased profit.

      Example:
      Cost | SellPrice | Units@SalePrice | Profit
      $1 | $5 | 1000 | $4000
      $1 | $2.50 | 2000 | $3000
      $1 | $4.00 | 1500 | $4500 (optimal)
      $1 | $0.75 | 10000 | -$2500 (dumbass)

      Now drilling more oil may actually require they go for harder to get sources of oil - which will raise the cost, diminishing the profit margin further.

      It's not as simple as more sales means more profit.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    66. Re:So... by khallow · · Score: 1

      What is wrong with a pay off in decades.

      What's wrong is that the "pay off" is theoretical. In my view, no legitimate scientific effort has been undertaken without at least a modest short term pay off. I'm willing to go with the National Ignition Facility because it advances the state of laser ignited fusion (which could have application even if it turns out to be a bad way to generate fusion). Maybe the price (somewhere over a billion dollars) is too high for what we get out of it, but it's considerably cheaper than ITER (which appears to be about a factor of 5 higher).

    67. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you serious? Right, because lobby groups would never ever stoop so far as to make insubstantial, thinly-veiled smear films to discred- Oh, woops. Too late.

      And have you been out much? I mean, really talked to the average Joe Schmoe on the street? You'd be surprised, and more than a little frightened, I hope, at the meaningless drivel some of them go for. The bigger problem is also how much the most vocal of this growing Confederacy of Dunces is able to get the attention of mainstream media. In case you haven't noticed, Glenn Pecker- I mean, Glenn Beck, was featured as a guest anal-est- I mean, analyst, on CNN, and Bill-O is showing up on GMA to give the President a "report card." Why are the fan blades suddenly brown, and what in God's name is that rancid odor?

    68. Re:So... by maxume · · Score: 1

      I'm entirely serious. You just highlighted the fact that voters already do an incredibly poor job of evaluating the low quality information available to them, I simply don't see much harm in further reducing the quality of the information, and I see some chance for benefit, as many people are only so credulous.

      Would that film sway your opinion? No? So that's 1 person where it was irrelevant, how many more do you think there are? And then there are all the people on the other side who already think she is a demon incarnate, a movie making that case is just going to make them feel good.

      I think Glenn Beck is a moron, so I don't really care where he shows up, if someone can't see him for the raving lunatic that he is, I figure they are already lost (I see some slight chance that Beck isn't really serious and that it is all a big act, but if that were the case I feel like he would be better at it, like O'Reilly, or if he were a true master Colbert (imagine him without all the little in jokes or occasional cuttingly sane diatribe, he would be pretty convincing))

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    69. Re:So... by DemonBeaver · · Score: 1

      If I understood the article correctly, the lasers needed are very, very exact, thus need high level optics - and therefore very expensive...

      --
      This message was brought to you by Sarcasm and Troll Feeders United (STFU)
    70. Re:So... by Hazelfield · · Score: 1

      And the shark STILL looks fake!

    71. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      And those of us smart enough to realize that language suffers when idiots dumb it down, will continue to resist changes made by morons.

    72. Re:So... by dave420 · · Score: 1

      No, that will become a corruption of the word, even if it enters common usage. If people start saying that Pi = 3, does that make it so?

    73. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You big, silly! Mr. Fusion only powers the time circuits, the engine is powered by ordinary gasoline. Although I think you can get Mr. Fusion to work with the Black and Decker Rehydrator to prepare the Pizza Hut pizza while you read your US Today newspaper.

    74. Re:So... by rinoid · · Score: 1

      Sticky point eh? That so many lay full blame at his feet is a particularly short attention span problem. He INHERITED two wars. He inherited a shitty tax policy. Maybe he didn't inherit some of the home bubble crisis, what about the wall street fiasco? I'm not sure he voted for the Bush tax cuts on the top n%.

    75. Re:So... by thrawn_aj · · Score: 1

      Being a science fiction aficionado myself, I can attest that our problem is that we see some amalgam of those glorious futures as an inevitability. They are simply possibilities to be realized through the applied power of the human mind. Clearly, we have fallen short of the expectations of our best minds in bringing these futures to reality. There is nothing inevitable about the continued existence of the human race, especially not its existence in a manner to our liking. So, work for it - don't expect it to just happen spontaneously. For all we know, John Galt has spirited away the people who can make it happen :P.

    76. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Note: Non-energy uses of oil is only about 10% of the total oil demand. (at least in Europe according to the Austrian Energy Agency).

    77. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, I know Christianity is a little barbaric, but give Canada a break. I don't think they condone stoning.

      Speaking as a Canadian, not stoning, no; just being stoned.

    78. Re:So... by bensch128 · · Score: 1

      heh, except that the fuel pellets use tritium and deuterium and the containers (hohlraums ??) are made out of gold foil.

      You don't find these elements at your local 7-11....

      I'd be interested to know how much tritium and deuterium a fully functioning fusion machine is expected to use up...

    79. Re:So... by rsborg · · Score: 1

      What's really scary, being a kid at the time the movies came out, is that pretty soon the "future" they visit in the second movie will be our past (we're only five years away)...

      We're probably well on our way to Biff's future...

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    80. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clean, safe, American-made, no foreign oil, low level of pollutants, and a reasonable amount of entropy (heat) released. Sounds like a winner to me.

      Why is this not a major news story in the US? UK and Europe is picking it up, it matters, and the US is just doing it, but without the media recognition.

    81. Re:So... by ashitaka · · Score: 1

      What if it is not that our best minds couldn't produce to our expectations, but rather, they were prevented from doing so by our not-so-best minds?

      --
      If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
    82. Re:So... by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Just think how I felt about 1984 (born in 1952).

    83. Re:So... by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 1

      This is not regular language. It's a scientific term.

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    84. Re:So... by thrawn_aj · · Score: 1

      What if it is not that our best minds couldn't produce to our expectations, but rather, they were prevented from doing so by our not-so-best minds?

      You're right of course. It is a distinct possibility. However, the consequence in either case is the same - the desired future has not been attained. That is what I meant by the glorious SF futures being neither inevitable nor part of some grand human destiny. Destiny exists only in retrospect :P.

    85. Re:So... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      And then you see some serious shit.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    86. Re:So... by geekoid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What the country needs to do is give me ultimate authority for creating long term clean electricity program.

      We would use half the oils we use now in 9 years, and 90% less in 18 years.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    87. Re:So... by daveime · · Score: 1

      Well that's strange ... when the price dropped a couple of years ago to like $25 a barrel, the reason cited was "lack of demand"

    88. Re:So... by daveime · · Score: 2, Funny

      and greatly exacerbated global warming

      How many times, global warming is NOT caused by man ... it's caused by the sun, you idiot.

    89. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is this not a major news story in the US?

      Because Thomas Cochran, senior scientist with the Natural Resources Defense Council, has characterized the entire project as a boondoggle and the people involved with it as "snake-oil salesmen." Regarding energy and the environment, the MSM take all their cues from enviro outfits like the NRDC. NIF would have to achieve continuous 100:1 power output before anyone in the US media would be allowed to mention it in a meaningful way, and then only if qualified by whatever 'concerns' about 'safety' can be trumped up. The NRDC has hundreds of employees and tens of millions of dollars per annum to stomp any fool journalist flat should they show any enthusiasm for NIF.

    90. Re:So... by tragedy · · Score: 1

      For gold, if the 7-11 sells liquor, buy Goldschlager. Otherwise, they may sell some cheap gold-plated jewelery and the like. Or maybe some electronics with some gold contacts? Otherwise go next door to the liquor store or to the local Wal~mart. As for tritium and Deuterium... A gallon jug of water should contain about 65 milligrams of Deuterium and about 17 femtograms of Tritium. So let's say there's about 1000 gallons of water contained in products to buy in a 7-11, that's a whole 65 grams of deuterium and 17 picograms of tritium to buy in a 7-11. That's about 1/5 the weight of an E. Coli bacterium in tritium, not too shabby for a trip to the store.

    91. Re:So... by Eclipse-now · · Score: 1

      In a world where 15 of the top 30 oil producing nations have peaked and are in decline, where the last time we found more oil than we burn was way back in 1981, and where we're now burning it about 5 times faster than we're finding it, and major oil men are projecting new projects will not replace decline from those nations already peaked out and in terminal decline, then I say: YEAH! I agree with you!

      What I find irrational is government and corporate denial of the imminence of peak oil. Who wants to upgrade airport runways when oil is about to start declining at 3, 4, or 5% a year? Who wants billions spent on new highways? Who will be driving on them in 10 years? And why the heck hasn't the world legislated that all new cars are "Better Place" EV battery-swap compliant? It's the best way we have today of 'quick-charging' a battery when you reach the 160km limit... rather than charging for 7 hours, just drive in and the automated system swaps the old battery out and replaces it with a new one in less time than it takes to fuel a gasoline / petroleum vehicle!

      Hybrid schmybrid, I want a light EV that gets REALLY good km / electricity charge ratio, not weighed down by an Internal Combustion Engine.

      If I ran the world, you KNOW I'd be mandating that at least GM (Government Motors) had to be Better Place compliant. But when electricity works out to 80 cents a litre equivalent price of gasoline (per KM travelled), then you KNOW the marketplace will be demanding Better Place / Renault Nissan vehicles anyway. And if Toyota, Ford, GM, and everyone else don't get on board, well too bad for them.

    92. Re:So... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      insurance liabilities are whats really hampering nuclear

      No, the lawsuits are what's really hampering nuclear. You get all your permissions lined up, you borrow a metric buttload of money to build, you start digging the foundation, and you get sued by Greenpeace (or the Sierra Club, or PETA, or whoever can come up with a reason). Then you have to stop working (but not stop paying back that loan) till the lawsuit is settled.

      A few years pass, the lawsuit is settled, and you resume work.

      Then you get sued again.

      Repeat until you go bankrupt or you just give up.

      Note that Solar in the desert is likely to go the same way. There are already people lining up to stop that facility someone wants to build in the southwestern desert - over a dozen or so turtles....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    93. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      alot isn't a word, Moron.

    94. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. That's why I don't call them atoms, I call them "Timmy"

    95. Re:So... by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      Please tell me you are using nukes, and you've got my vote.

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
    96. Re:So... by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      *Dramatic engine failure!!!*

      Nothing a headbutt won't fix, though.

    97. Re:So... by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      I wish you where wrong... but again the lawyers win! Also a huge cost is compliance, that has little to do with improved safety of otherwise...

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    98. Re:So... by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      As I said, not on the next 20 years. But the known physics doesn't constrain it to huge buildings, only current engineering.

    99. Re:So... by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      I'm sick of hearing the "All of the Rare Earths are in China so we shouldn't invest in new technologies" line, particularly when the people spouting it have no idea what rare earths are required for what products, as well as the the actual domestic abundance of these elements.

      In most cases, the American supply of rare earth minerals is untapped, because there has historically never been much of a demand for them. This problem can very easily be solved.

      Similarly, I reject the notion that we can't find alternatives to materials unavailable domestically.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    100. Re:So... by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      Except of course that your table ignores that the cost would be different (much lower). Additionally, there is competition, which means ("in the limit", sorry I like maths, meaning after a while) that different companies have to have similar margins, independant of price (which additionally tend to evolve towards zero over time), so here's the real table (after, say, a year of the new oil-making method is available, your table might be accurate for day 1, though):

      Cost | SellPrice | Units@SalePrice | Profit
      $1 | $0.75 | 10000 | -$2500
      $4.75 | $5 | 1000 | $250
      $2.25 | $2.50 | 2000 | $500
      $3.75 | $4.00 | 1500 | $375
      $0.75 | $1 | 10000 | $2500

      Since they also pay a cost in lives, which could be drastically reduced by making oil in non-medieval non-stupid countries (*cough* may have something to do with non-islamic *cough*), it seems to me that they would be

    101. Re:So... by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      Actually, cost may not be lower - they tap the easier to access fields first - so it may actually be more expensive to up the cost.

      It not nearly as simple as you make it out to be.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    102. Re:So... by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      up the production... not cost.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    103. Re:So... by compro01 · · Score: 1

      I'm sick of hearing the "All of the Rare Earths are in China so we shouldn't invest in new technologies" line, particularly when the people spouting it have no idea what rare earths are required for what products, as well as the the actual domestic abundance of these elements.

      I wasn't saying any such thing. I was simply making a point that if one stated (not necessarily the actual) reason for war is invalidated, the next in a near-infinite series will be used, be it water, lebensraum, oil, protection of the world status quo/balance of power, REEs, or anything else seen as valuable or desirable by a sufficient number of people to be seen as credible.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
  2. Has it been 20 years already? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where are the flying cars? Where is my copy of Du
    SIGNAL DROPPED

  3. Terminology ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What does "ignition" mean for the energy gain of this type of fusion? Is this going to be worthwhile enough to overcome the inherent difficulties of this approach? Right now, inertial confinement seems to be suited for one-off events but not for sustained power generation since the fuel pellet will need to be lined up nearly perfectly for the lasers to not just blow it apart. Is "ignition" going to produce enough energy to make all this setup worthwhile in anything but an experimental sense?

    1. Re:Terminology ? by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      That's one of the things the experimental reactor is supposed to determine, no?

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    2. Re:Terminology ? by ID000001 · · Score: 0

      This is really just a nuclear fusion simulator without actually using nuclear material. The "Producing Energy" part is more of an afterthought cause otherwise they couldn't generate enough support.

    3. Re:Terminology ? by Jojoba86 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Ignition means more fusion energy released than laser energy in. Yes, there are issues in scaling it up, but none that are known to be insurmountable. Already there have been experiments to look at target injection (a 2 GW power plant would be at the 5 - 10 Hz region), high rep-rate lasers (Mercury is an example of a high power, high rep-rate laser) and the lining up of the laser in this situation requires less precision than that of anti-missile systems that are around.

      Also the Hohlraum approach is unlikely to be used in a power-plant, as it doesn't give the biggest energy gains, so this is basically a significant step towards projects such as HiPER. If NIF achieves success in ignition as is widely expected the money should be around for projects like HiPER.

    4. Re:Terminology ? by Fnkmaster · · Score: 1

      You know what's really funny - I was in junior high school, 8th grade to be exact, and living in Fremont, CA when we had a school field trip to ... you guessed it, Lawrence Livermore Labs.

      That would have been around 1990 or thereabouts. And I'll be damned if they didn't give us a tour of a many-laser fuel pellet ignition fusion system that I thought was frigging cool at the time (I swear it was something like 40 or 60 pulsed lasers), though I recall wondering how they were ever going to get it to keep releasing energy in a way that could be sustained.

      Apparently, that must have been the earlier version of the current system, which they apparently started work on in 1997 and just completed in 2009.

      Just gives you a sense of the absolutely, horrendously glacial pace of fusion research. They have spent at *least* the last 19 years, and in all likelihood more like 30+ years, i.e. the entire career of many scientists and engineers, working on essentially the same technique, that nobody really knows how it would be used to create a sustained fusion reaction that produces net energy.

      I find this incredibly sad. Aren't there any better, new ideas in fusion research to invest money and time into for experimental purposes?

    5. Re:Terminology ? by Jojoba86 · · Score: 1

      No, for fusion Deuterium and Tritium are used (heavy isotopes of Hydrogen). This is the only 'nuclear' material needed, and this is exactly what NIF will use.

    6. Re:Terminology ? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      I find this incredibly sad. Aren't there any better, new ideas in fusion research to invest money and time into for experimental purposes?

      Lots of people are working on different methods. Turns out they all take a lot of time and development to actually get working.

      What I find sad is that so many of us don't seem to have the patience for things that are honestly and truly difficult to work out and that could really take many years to figure out. 30 years isn't very long in the history of science. Things much simpler than practical fusion reactors took much longer to develop in the past. It's only because of how rapidly technology advances these days that we expect this to apply to everything, and that anything to which this doesn't apply is a waste of time.

      And what's also sad is that I know this intellectually, but I really can't blame you for feeling the way you do because to an extent I feel the same way!

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    7. Re:Terminology ? by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      there are lots of approaches, that one just happens to be very promising.
      Now as for the time it's taken it's not like they haven't been getting anywhere it's just that there's the little problem that what they're trying to do is really really hard.

    8. Re:Terminology ? by SwedishPenguin · · Score: 1

      It's certainly not a new idea, but ITER (tokamak) is under construction in southern France. Of course, it won't be completed for some 10 years, and then the project is expected to run over 20 years after that. The plan is to sustain 500MW for up to 1000 seconds. Of course, they don't generate any electricity either, it's purely research.
      I'm afraid we won't see any actual fusion power plants for quite a while barring something revolutionary.

    9. Re:Terminology ? by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      I find this incredibly sad. Aren't there any better, new ideas in fusion research to invest money and time into for experimental purposes?

      How about Focus Fusion?

      Some of the major differences with this technique is that it doesn't produce neutrons as a by-product (which makes it much cleaner - no deadly neutron radiation requiring expensive shielding and disposal), and it produces electricity directly from the reaction, rather than the traditional method of producing heat for steam for a turbine generator.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    10. Re:Terminology ? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      ..horrendously glacial pace of fusion research...

      Well other than orders of magnitude increase in confinement and understanding, i guess its "glacial" (compared to what? Improvments in coal burning?). The whole point of research is to find out what you already know, what you don't know, and what you need to find out. It turns out plasmas are bloody difficult to deal with and there was a lot to find out.

      Our energy future need to lose this horrendously short sightedness. Its rather short sighted to assume nothing is been done just because you have no idea about the research. Its also short sighted to only consider research useful if you make money off it (now!). We are in this for the long haul, and 50-100 years to develop fusion is well worth it. A 1GW thermal power station using a 2nd gen fuel of DD, will consume just 93 kg of Deuterium fuel per year!

      As for your best bet for fusion, tokamak's are still getting the best triple products. But ITER may not be the best next step. I think edge localized modes need more work and this can be done with existing machines much cheaper than ITER. Active control is getting some work now, but again this should be done properly rather than have a huge money sink like ITER swallowing the budgets.

      For a dark horse bet, I would look at Magnetized Target Fusion (MTF). Notably General Electrics approach seems interesting and solves the first wall problems more or less, but there are a few groups working on it.

      There have been a few other things proposed, but the bulk fall into the ITER type, the MTF type and of course the ICF type of devices.

      I know people love the Buzzard polywell and Fusion Focus, but they need previous experiments to be *wrong* in order to work. The Fusion Focus at least deals with the standard issues, but really jumping straight to pB fusion when you can even demonstrate DD fusion is a bad sign.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    11. Re:Terminology ? by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      Patience is a virtue that is lost amongst many these days due to the internet "revolution."

    12. Re:Terminology ? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      tldr. ;)

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    13. Re:Terminology ? by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      I find this incredibly sad. Aren't there any better, new ideas in fusion research to invest money and time into for experimental purposes?

      I've always wondered why they can't just use a supercolider or atom smasher to bang two hydrogen atoms together with enough force to fuse them into helium. Do this with a stream of hydrogen atoms in both directions and you have sustained fusion.

      What am I missing here?

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    14. Re:Terminology ? by The+Psyko · · Score: 1

      That would have been awesome, we were just remarking in the office how cool it would be to tour those labs!

      I'm guessing this is one of those cases where this is the best chance to get experimental results that will open or close lots of doors. And yes, it does seem like an extremely long time, but with funding and skepticism about fusion where it is, and with how extremely complicated something like this is, I'm not sure if I would have really expected it to go any faster.

      However, if we get an actual nuclear fusion power plant by 2050, I think looking back in a couple of hundred years people will be impressed at how fast the technology was developed at all. We've only been at a point technologically where something like this is even thinkable for less than 100 years. I think that if I were working on a project like this, dedicating most of my career to it would be worthwhile if only to move this along in some way. If it works, it's pretty much humanity's game-changer.

    15. Re:Terminology ? by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      Clearly there aren't enough buzzwords, if we had more of those people could understand what's going on and we could get this done by next quarter max.

    16. Re:Terminology ? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      Its doesn't produce fusion either. Considering pB fusion is 2000 harder *at least* and needs 10x the heat. The system that can produce 1 watt with pB fusion could produce 2kW with DT fusion without breaking a sweat. In fact it would work wonderfully with DD fusion. You also need to believe quite a bit of BS from the founder with regards to Mega Tesla magnetic fields....and never mind that all the other dense plasma focus produce very very low yields of DD fusion thats 1000x easer than pB.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    17. Re:Terminology ? by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      I wish I understood enough physics to know if the technique would really work. The idea of using chaos instead of trying to control it really appeals to my aesthetic sensibilities.

    18. Re:Terminology ? by rhsanborn · · Score: 1

      A wonderful example was the race to create superfluids and acheive absolute zero. PBS had a great special on this. Transcripts here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3501_zero.html

      It's an enormous amount of time spent doing something that seems almost silly now: making things like liquid helium. If you notice we had abundant amounts of it, and use them specifically in medical imaging.

    19. Re:Terminology ? by careysub · · Score: 1

      ...the Hohlraum approach is unlikely to be used in a power-plant, as it doesn't give the biggest energy gains, so this is basically a significant step towards projects such as HiPER. If NIF achieves success in ignition as is widely expected the money should be around for projects like HiPER.

      The HiPER direct drive/fast ignition is definitely a more promising scheme for using laser drivers. But even the best available laser technologies for drivers have poor power-line-to-beam efficiency.

      The NIF hohlraum indirect drive approach has the marked advantage that it does not require lasers to produce those hot x-rays that drive the implosion. Far more efficient ion beams can do this work instead, which will likely more than compensate for any advantages in the beam-to-target-yield ratio from HiPER.

      BTW - the principle purpose of NIF is doing weapons research. This is why it got $5 billion in US DOE funding. It does have relevance to research for peaceful power production, but the facility was optimized for the weapons role, not for peaceful research.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    20. Re:Terminology ? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      I saw that documentary -- it was awesome!

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    21. Re:Terminology ? by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      Its doesn't produce fusion either. Considering pB fusion is 2000 harder *at least* and needs 10x the heat. The system that can produce 1 watt with pB fusion could produce 2kW with DT fusion without breaking a sweat. In fact it would work wonderfully with DD fusion. You also need to believe quite a bit of BS from the founder with regards to Mega Tesla magnetic fields....and never mind that all the other dense plasma focus produce very very low yields of DD fusion thats 1000x easer than pB.

      Considering the fact that a complete FF reactor would cost less than 1% the cost of a functional tokamak reactor, I think FF is still a clear winner. Both techniques have challenges and neither have managed to produce sustainable fusion. But so much time and money have been put into solving problems with the conventional fusion that maybe it's time to take at least a tiny fraction of those resources away from them to explore some other ideas.

      If FF can be made to work, it will produce much greater benefits than the (still not working) traditional methods that are still getting all the funding and attention.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    22. Re:Terminology ? by Yergle143 · · Score: 1

      Here's another wild concept in fusion:

      http://www.generalfusion.com/

      Be nice if it works before you're 60!

    23. Re:Terminology ? by deglr6328 · · Score: 4, Informative

      I agree with most of what you said but I don't know where you got "and the lining up of the laser in this situation requires less precision than that of anti-missile systems that are around". That's definitely not true. Laser irradiation on a direct drive target for ignition requires exquisite precision. We recently demonstrated a significant hit on fusion yield in implosions of cryogenic, layered deuterium tritium ice capsules when beam pointing was off by TEN MICRONS. If you're injecting targets into your reactor chamber at 10Hz, you are going to need some serious, super accurate laser pointing unless you want your fusion yield to be severely diminished. That means real time tracking of the target with hundreds of final focusing lenses that are all about 10 meters (at least) away from the target chamber center. Good luck!

      You don't even want to get into the problem of the cryogenic microcapsules melting before they reach the target chamber center. I've seen DT ice filled microcapsules melt, boil and explode within ~3 seconds of exposure to the thermal radiation from the inner wall of the TC at ambient temperature. Wanna take a guess as to how much that time is going to be reduced when your TC is at 800 Kelvin reactor operating temperature? Yeah, that means you are going to need to inject the pellets at extremely high velocity to minimize the thermal exposure time, and your lasers will then have to track it that much faster. Furthermore, how the hell do you deal with the horrible vibration on your focus lenses created by detonating the equivalent of roughly 50 pounds of dynamite (200 MJ) in the TC at 10Hz. Yeah... I'm as excited about this as anyone, but we have a LOT of problems still left to solve.

      --
      - "Hear that?! The percolations are imminent! Cease your ingress!"
    24. Re:Terminology ? by maxume · · Score: 1

      A reasonable case that the device puts out more energy than it consumes (and it has to be more after you connect it up to some thingamjig that generates electricity, probably a steam turbine)?

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    25. Re:Terminology ? by Again · · Score: 1

      Clearly there aren't enough buzzwords, if we had more of those people could understand what's going on and we could get this done by next quarter max.

      They should have tried iHyper-cloud fusion with nano carbon-fiber rods. That would have worked.

    26. Re:Terminology ? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      Turns out the probability of just bouncing off each other in random directions is about a millions times more likely than fusion. Thats why just devices are not energy positive.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    27. Re:Terminology ? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      This one is not actually that wild. It uses a thermal plasma and doesn't need black magic to work as some do (aka polywell).

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    28. Re:Terminology ? by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      Ignition means more fusion energy released than laser energy in.

      I'm not so sure about that - any reason why it can't ignite, but not "burn" long enough to hit break-even? E.g. if instabilities kill the reaction almost as soon as it gets going. Just seems like a strange definition of ignition is all.

    29. Re:Terminology ? by srleffler · · Score: 1

      This approach has the side benefit that the pressure and temperature conditions in the pellets are suitable for studying the physics of nuclear weapons. That makes it easy to get funding for it...

    30. Re:Terminology ? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      Ignition is roughly the case where fusion power is larger than losses. So the plasma will heat up with fusion power alone.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    31. Re:Terminology ? by nutshell42 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I agree with most of what you said but I don't know where you got "and the lining up of the laser in this situation requires less precision than that of anti-missile systems that are around". That's definitely not true. Laser irradiation on a direct drive target for ignition requires exquisite precision.

      I think you seriously underestimate the precision required for missile defense.

      • The airborne laser has to focus on a target 300km (600km for ICBMs but let's be conservative) away.
      • It has to hold that focus for 5s,
      • through the atmosphere
      • on a supersonic target
      • that is accelerating the whole time,
      • while being mounted on an airplane.

      10 micrometer at a distance of 5m corresponds to about 60cm at 300km.

      True the beam is 1.5m across as it leaves the mirror but due to atmospheric turbulence you can never be quite certain which parts of the laser are gonna hit the target so I'd say despite all those factors mentioned above it still achieves higher precision.

      --
      Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
    32. Re:Terminology ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think the real purpose of this approach is to make a reactor to get power. That is likely an afterthought. This research is being done at Livermore afterall... This is more something to replace the primary stage in an Teller–Ulam type device ;).

    33. Re:Terminology ? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      And that mean you know about anti-missile systems? no? than how the hell do you know if its more or less precise?

      It's less, but that's not the point.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    34. Re:Terminology ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Say hi to Brooke for me.

    35. Re:Terminology ? by inKubus · · Score: 1

      High-powered computers of the future and nanotechnology, of course.

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
    36. Re:Terminology ? by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      You _are_ kidding. That "no problems in scaling it up" is the classic sort of hand-waving we've been seeing for flying cars, artificial intelligence, speech recognition, the cure for cancer, and the three-body problem for many years now. The problems may not be "known to be insurmountable", but almost none of them have actually been solved. Even simple problems such as "where are you going to get the tritium for the few fusion reactions that have worked"? The entire US supply is currently less than 100 kilograms. It's normally obtained from fusion reactors: so the "scaling up" will have to include a massive build-out of fusion plants, to supply the tritium for the fusion reactors. If you've got that many fusion plants, why would you _bother_ building far more difficult to design and far less efficient fusion reactors?

    37. Re:Terminology ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or, instead of pointing thousands of laser beams at a moving target, you could position the target accurately. That's relatively simple.

  4. Death Star? by PmanAce · · Score: 0

    ...I imagined the Death Star with its three lasers combining to become a super laser. I guess this is not the same lol, I should stop watching the Flea Market Montgomery Mini Mall Rap while I read slashdot.

    --
    Tired of my customary (Score:1)
    1. Re:Death Star? by kiehlster · · Score: 1

      Ah, now I see what the scientist's rational was for building the Death Star. No, this isn't a doomsday device, this is just a way to create fusion energy on a macro scale. Don't mind the peons on those plants, this is science!

    2. Re:Death Star? by smitty777 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Just a minor point - the Death Star had more than three lasers. I think it was more like 12 or so. Just didn't want you to provoke the dark side of the force by underestimating the power of the 'Star.

      --
      "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish"
      Albert Einstein
    3. Re:Death Star? by Sebilrazen · · Score: 1

      Are we talking originally or special editions?

      --
      "There are no facts, only interpretations." --Friedrich Nietzsche.
    4. Re:Death Star? by chill · · Score: 1

      According to the article, the energy in the lasers is enough to boil a liter or so of water. The point that the pulses are measured in nanoseconds and a full second pulse could boil and Olympic-sized swimming pool.

      I leave it as an exercise to the reader to do the math on how many Olympic-sized swimming pools there are in all the world's oceans and how long the pulse would have to be to boil them. Theoretically of course, and excluding heat dissipation over distance, etc.

      Feel free to form a separate thread with Dr. Evil references.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    5. Re:Death Star? by smitty777 · · Score: 1

      Oh snap! I didn't think of that. A quick Google search didn't reveal any with the alleged 3 lasers. Was there a difference between the two in the amount of lasers???

      --
      "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish"
      Albert Einstein
    6. Re:Death Star? by el3mentary · · Score: 1

      Volume in an Olympic swimming pool = 2,500,000L = 2.5E-6 km^3

      Volume in the Worlds oceans = 1.36E9 km^3

      Olympic swimming pools in the worlds oceans = 5.44E14

      Q.E.D Time=5.44E14s or 544,000,000,000 seconds = 151 111 111 hours = 6 296 296.29 days = 17 238.6879 years

      Accounting for rounding errors I'm going for around 17,200 years

      --
      I reject your reality and substitute my own.
  5. This is wonderful! by fredrated · · Score: 4, Funny

    Now fusion energy is only 10 years away!

    1. Re:This is wonderful! by KarrdeSW · · Score: 1

      Now fusion energy is only 10 years away!

      They'll probably delay it just to build up the hype... or some lizard will get into the lab during an experiment and come out as godzilla. Either or.

    2. Re:This is wonderful! by Nadaka · · Score: 4, Funny

      Ha. Unlike CERN, they had the insight to build this thing inside an building that isn't in France. That means it is 99.999% proof against a pidgeon dropping a baguette in it.

    3. Re:This is wonderful! by radtea · · Score: 1

      Now fusion energy is only 10 years away!

      And will be for the next fifty years.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    4. Re:This is wonderful! by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      So I need 10,000 Bread-Borne Birds of Avian Anarchy... Wait, NO! My plan is revealed!

      *Scurry*

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    5. Re:This is wonderful! by Rhaban · · Score: 1

      I suppose french swallows could carry baguette slices to california, if encased in a coconut shell?

    6. Re:This is wonderful! by Seth+Kriticos · · Score: 2, Funny

      I really pity the first person who gets fusion to work for energy:

      "Hey Bob, fusion energy here."
      "Yea Benny, I know, in ten years. I know that one.."
      "No, here, just made it work. See: fusion here in my ignition facility. Energy output meter shows lot's of power. I made it!!"
      "You actually realize that you effectively destroyed a years old meme in the Internet? FUCK YOU!"
      "..."

    7. Re:This is wonderful! by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      To be fair it used to be 15 years away (admitedly more than 10 years ago) so in 50 years it'll only be 2 or 3 years away.

    8. Re:This is wonderful! by jbeaupre · · Score: 1

      You must be North Korean. We've had fusion energy for almost 60 years: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_Mike

      --
      The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    9. Re:This is wonderful! by B1oodAnge1 · · Score: 1

      But how quickly?

      --
      RUGBYRUGBYRUGBY
    10. Re:This is wonderful! by emt377 · · Score: 1

      Ha. Unlike CERN, they had the insight to build this thing inside an building that isn't in France. That means it is 99.999% proof against a pidgeon dropping a baguette in it.

      DoHS memo: All Agents: remain vigilant and on the lookout for foreign parties attempting to corner local bagel markets while purchasing suspicious quantities of whitefish. End memo.

    11. Re:This is wonderful! by toboldh · · Score: 1

      Where have I heard this before? Oh ya, now I remember. I wrote a paper for my high school physics class on the state of fusion energy research and how it would soon be a source of unlimited cheap power. I wrote that paper in 1962. Now I'm paying the PG&E bill with my social security check.

    12. Re:This is wonderful! by mrvan · · Score: 1

      Because, as we all know, Geneva (CERN's site) is in France.

      Right?

    13. Re:This is wonderful! by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      Humor doesn't have to be entirely accurate. Though I would note that the LHC ring straddles the Franco-Swiss border, so I am pretty sure I can get by on a technicality.

    14. Re:This is wonderful! by maxume · · Score: 1

      Often, when I hear a joke, I repeat the punch line and then laugh like 'HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA'.

      I get all the chicks.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  6. Within a Year? Blasphemy! by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Funny

    The project lead, Dr. Sigfried Glenzer, is "confident that with everything in place, ignition is on the horizon. He added, quite simply, 'It's going to happen this year.'

    Huh. I had always thought that some international police force like "The International Fusion Gestapo" would be dispatched upon hearing this news and show up at your lab and start smashing mirrors and urinating on lasers until you revised your statement to be "15 to 20 years away" so that all their dues paying members would have time to reach tenure before you ruined the party.

    I mean, there was no other logical explanation why so many seemingly brilliant scientists continually gave us incorrect estimates of achieving milestones in fusion research. Is this just being overly optimistic or was he carefully picking his words so that they will know if this method is viable (above break even energy production) or not within a year? And if so, where will he get his funding given the if not scenario?

    --
    My work here is dung.
  7. help! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cool story guys. I tweeted and poked it but most of all I digg it. Why isn't there a digg button?

  8. That's about the coolest or hottest thing ever by xednieht · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Understand just enough to know that I don't understand enough, but this sounds fantastic.

    --

    Hope is the currency of fools
    1. Re:That's about the coolest or hottest thing ever by AaxelB · · Score: 1

      Understand just enough to know that I don't understand enough, but this sounds fantastic.

      Agreed! Even more so because the picture in TFA clearly shows that they totally built Cerebro!

      Except that instead of enhancing the telepathy of whomever's inside, it blows things up with lasers. I'd call that an improvement.

  9. I can hear it now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Boom?

    1. Re:I can hear it now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      No boom today, boom tomorrow.

  10. Pocket Fusion for everyone,,, by MindPrison · · Score: 1

    ... something to think about the next time you brag to your friends about your 300mW pocket laser pointer popping balloons & burning wood.

    --
    What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
    1. Re:Pocket Fusion for everyone,,, by TheMeuge · · Score: 1

      I don't know about you, but i bring my 300 MW pocket laser pointer to pop baloons.

    2. Re:Pocket Fusion for everyone,,, by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 3, Funny

      ...your 300mW pocket laser pointer popping balloons & burning wood.

      You're supposed to take it out of your pocket before using it.

      --
      Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
    3. Re:Pocket Fusion for everyone,,, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Else you would have become burning man!

    4. Re:Pocket Fusion for everyone,,, by ColaMan · · Score: 1

      Balloons? I use my 300MW pocket laser to pop satellites, burn my name on the moon and hold entire nations to ransom for one million dollars.

      *pinky to mouth*

      --

      You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
      There is a lot of hype here.
  11. fusion has radioactive waste by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Insightful

    but its low powered and has quick half-lives. additionally, there are no geopolitical overtones concerning fuel sources: you just need sea water. no climate changing pollution/ city-choking smog for that matter. no peak oil this or that, no bubbles and spikes in supply or pricing

    additionally, if everyone had electric cars, there would be no petrodollars funding saudi arabia, a backwards fundamentalist regime that funds wahhabi madrassas in places like pakistan, that give rise to all of these well-funded (from saudi "charities") militant assholes in the muslim world

    no funding of gas bag chavez in venezuela, no funding of neoimperial russia and putin, no funding for nigerian graft and corruption...

    it will take a long time, but if we can remove the reason for the world to have any vested interests in backwards regimes, propping them up and preserving them unnaturally, and we instead let these regimes instead rise and fall on their own intrinsic value in governing fair societies, then we will have taken a mighty step forward in terms of progress in this world

    of course, it will be decades before we're all driving electric cars powered by fusion plants. but one can dream, cant' they?

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      of course, it will be decades before we're all driving electric cars powered by fusion plants. but one can dream, cant' they?

      Too bad we don't treat fusion research with the same priority as the Manhattan Project during WW2.

      But yes.. we can dream.

    2. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by N+Monkey · · Score: 1

      but its low powered and has quick half-lives. additionally, there are no geopolitical overtones concerning fuel sources: you just need sea water.

      Except somewhere in the article (or perhaps a related one) it said they use deuterium and tritium, and, IIRC, the latter they obtained from lithium.

    3. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      You mean in total secrecy to everyone but top ranking military and political leaders until the product is debuted in the deaths of thousands. And afterwards all the research is consider state secrets which are closely guarded and other nations have to research and develop it on their own while we enjoy a monopoly on the the technology and use it excessively as a political power chip to force the capitulation of our enemies. You want fusion to be treated like that?

    4. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lithium can be extracted from seawater, too. The cost is something on the order of $20/kg.

    5. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by Starlet+Monroe · · Score: 2, Informative

      This isn't strictly true. While the fusion reaction itself doesn't leave long-lived radionuclides that have to be disposed of, the fusion process generates neutrons with such high energy -- much higher than in a fission reaction -- that the shielding itself becomes activated. Additionally, since the interior of the reactor is exposed to such high flux, it degrades and has to be replaced. These both result in radioactive waste that have to be dealt with. Most of what I've read suggests that, indeed, the half-lives of most of the materials created this way are very much shorter than the waste that comes out of the non-reprocessed fission reactors in the U.S.A., but it's not negligible.

      IAAHP (I Am A Health Physicist)

      --
      ++
    6. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by FreakyGreenLeaky · · Score: 1

      fuckin-a

    7. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      additionally, if everyone had electric cars, there would be no petrodollars funding saudi arabia, a backwards fundamentalist regime that funds wahhabi madrassas in places like pakistan, that give rise to all of these well-funded (from saudi "charities") militant assholes in the muslim world

      no funding of gas bag chavez in venezuela, no funding of neoimperial russia and putin, no funding for nigerian graft and corruption...

      Replace every instance of "no" with "less". Gasoline is not the only thing we make with oil.

    8. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by wurp · · Score: 1

      Regarding your "just need seawater" comment - it looks as if this experiment will use tritium for the version that's expected to achieve fusion.

      You can get tritium from seawater, but it's fantastically expensive.

      That is not to denigrate this result. It's still very exciting, and might even be cost effective, but tritium is so expensive that a few grams per day might cost too much to make a fusion plant make sense.

      (From a cursory web search it looks as if a gram of tritium costs on the order of $100,000 US.)

    9. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by dbkluck · · Score: 1

      Seems to me we've already developed a fusion reactor capable of solving the problems you mention with Saudia Arabia, Venezuela, and Russia...

    10. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hydrogen-Dueterium-Tritium fusion has radioactive waste, the worst part being the neutrons produced which carry away a significant fraction of the energy and induce radioactivity in the materials of the reactor.

      Boron-11 fusion, on the other hand, produces alpha particles which can straightforwardly have their momentum converted into electrical power (at which point they're just Helium ions), and looses very little energy in the form of neutrons.

      However, even if we had deploy-able fusion technology right now, that's not going to get us away from oil and to electric cars. The problem is batteries, there is nothing in the pipeline with the energy density and low cost needed to make electric cars more than a niche product.

      But we could reduce our dependence on foreign oil, if we were willing to develop more of our own.

    11. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...but if we can remove the reason for the world to have any vested interests in backwards regimes, propping them up and preserving them unnaturally, and we instead let these regimes instead rise and fall on their own intrinsic value in governing fair societies, then we will have taken a mighty step forward in terms of progress in this world...

      You forget that having enemies like that provides a great excuse for funding a huge, enormously profitable defense industry. That in itself is a reason they will be kept going or something will be found to replace them...

    12. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by eth1 · · Score: 1

      No, it just means that in a few years we'll reach peak seawater and start funding all the corrupt regimes that have still have good beach reserves.

    13. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      plain old fission reactors produce neutrons up in the 10MeV range. However per unit heat output its much less than a fusion reactor. But the experience with fission materials does in fact help us. Also we have more flexibility with a fusion reactor since you don't need to worry about neutron economy.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    14. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would settle for electric cars powered by fission plants, too. But if it takes figuring out fusion to get people over their irrational, anti-scientific fear of nuclear power, then so be it.

    15. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But more importantly, no more jackass empires that destroy governments to get cheap oil, then act surprised when dictators and scumbags rise to power in these countries :)

    16. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      ...there are no geopolitical overtones concerning fuel sources: you just need sea water.

      The prospect of moving from a 'geopolitical fuel' to a non-geopolitical one itself has geopolitical implications. Buggy whip manufacturers aren't going to take this lying down, and neither are oil-rich monarchies.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    17. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      In addition to the radiation issues addressed by the other poster, you're also wrong about oil. If we could wave a magic wand and make all IC automobiles vanish while we slept, we'd wake up in a world still dependent on oil for many things - plastics, lubricants, chemical feed stocks for thousands of industrial processes.

    18. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      Oil isn't going out of style. We'll just use it in a more productive way -- to MAKE STUFF instead of burning it.

      Mal-2

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    19. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by PagosaSam · · Score: 1

      Well, no. Tritium is easily produced by neutron bombardment of Lithium 6. You get He4 and a T. Fortunately the DT reaction produces a neutron that can be captured to create more T. Also fortunately, Lithium is reasonably abundant. At least for this purpose, I'm not so sure about car batteries!

      --
      :q! Oh crap, not again...
    20. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but all I'm saying is that there is a lot of big companies who have a lot investing in refining oil and selling gasoline. Folks like BP, for instance. They're not really going to want this change to happen all that fast or smoothly.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    21. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by inKubus · · Score: 1

      It seems much of our need for government of any kind is to protect us from the other people anyway. Most everything else is provided by the market.. Once energy is free it's just a matter of who can use it fastest, and that's always going to be small organizations.

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
    22. Re:fusion has radioactive waste by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      If energy is cheap, so is the type of chemistry they use. Given adequate energy input, that gasoline can be made into something more useful (like a heavier fraction). This may make oil companies evolve, but it won't kill them. It also will make their profits less visible, as people will not buy fuel. They'll buy things made of petrochemicals but will not directly associate the prices of those goods with the price of the raw materials.

      Oil companies are manufacturing and distributing organic chemicals made in vast quantities. The end use is not really important to them, people just have to buy the stuff. It doesn't matter if that's in the form of gas, fertilizer, or Barbie dolls.

      Mal-2

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  12. I can see it now... by s0litaire · · Score: 1, Funny

    1) May: ramping up power
    2) June 1st: Flick the switch
    3) ???
    4) June 2nd: They are now the proud owners of a 2mile wide smoking crater...
    5) Tourist industry profits...

    --
    Laters Sol "Have you found the secrets of the universe? Asked Zebade "I'm sure I left them here somewhere"
    1. Re:I can see it now... by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      It would also be advisable to have a crowbar on-hand. Just in case.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
  13. Compared to the megajoule laser? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So I guess this is the same megajoule laser, that I read about over at engadger?

    According to tfa:

    "We hit it with 669 kilojoules - 20 times more than any previous laser facility," Nif's Siegfried Glenzer told BBC News.

    So, basically, if I am getting this straight

    Really powerful laser => shoots really cold stuff => reaction causes x-rays to be created => x-rays cause stuff to get super hot => if you can get two things hot enough (i.e. hydrogen atoms), they fuse.

    How interesting.

    1. Re:Compared to the megajoule laser? by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      For a gas/plasma Temperature is simply a statistical measure of the molecular kinetic energy that exists in a group of particles.

      Like you may have learned in high school physics, opposites atrract and like particles repel each other.

      In order to fuse two hydrogen atoms you have to make contact between two positively charged hydrogen ions, this means that you need enough energy to overcome the electromagnetic repulsion between those ions.

      So yes, since temperature is a measure of the translational energy(also rotational, vibrational, etc.) of molecules, get it hot enough and there will be a small chance that the hydrogen ions will fuse. If the chance is high enough and the energy returned is greater than what is put into the reaction, then huzzah you have commercially viable fusion.

  14. 'It's going to happen this year.'" by ibsteve2u · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    OK...let's see...then going by current trends, its manufacture should be offshored in 2012.

    --
    Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
  15. Yes, but is it REALLY working? by Noryungi · · Score: 1

    OK, Fusion within 2010. Great.

    The question now becomes: will this generate more energy than it takes? And can it sustain power generation?

    And, let's admit everything works: what quantity of nuclear waste will such a machine produce? And of what type?

    Don't give me the "it's fusion, so it's clean, duh" line: this machine is going to generate an enormous amount of energy and a lot of that will in the form of a "carefully controlled thermonuclear explosion" (BBC dixit) -- which means radiation, which also means neutrons. And neutrons are not really good for your health.

    And will ITER be quickly refactored to take this into account? Will the EU combine HiPER (high-energy laser projects) and ITER? Will the USA share its latest discovery with its ITER partners?

    Questions, questions, questions...

    --
    The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
    1. Re:Yes, but is it REALLY working? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Questions, questions, questions...

      All of which can be easily answered and debunked in seconds by Google and/or Wikipedia. If you were really curious, you'd spend your lunch break today doing some honest research, not spreading variations on the same tired anti-nuclear FUD we've seen for several decades.

    2. Re:Yes, but is it REALLY working? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Informative

      And, let's admit everything works: what quantity of nuclear waste will such a machine produce? And of what type?

      Don't give me the "it's fusion, so it's clean, duh" line: this machine is going to generate an enormous amount of energy and a lot of that will in the form of a "carefully controlled thermonuclear explosion" (BBC dixit) -- which means radiation, which also means neutrons. And neutrons are not really good for your health.

      Later in TFA it says they'll eventually be fusing a fuel containing a mix deuterium and tritium. Deuterium-deuterium fusion yields tritium and a neutron, and deuterium-tritium fusion yields helium-4 and a neutron. So the byproducts are Helium-4 (not radioactive in the slightest) and neutrons.

      High energy neutrons are very bad for you, yes, but that just means you won't be standing near the unshielded reaction chamber. It's not like you have to dump a big pile of poisonous neutrons somewhere. The neutrons will affect the containment itself, but the biggest problem there is just that it becomes brittle, not necessarily radioactive.

      It is basically true that fusion is clean. The waste is minimal.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    3. Re:Yes, but is it REALLY working? by delinear · · Score: 1

      My understanding (and IANALaserologist) is that fusion only generates low level nuclear waste, the sort of stuff you get as a by product of various machines in hospitals and... relatively... safe to handle, so I guess the real question is about the quantity, whether it's within the bounds we already deal with or exceeds those by several order of magnitudes could be the key factor.

    4. Re:Yes, but is it REALLY working? by wrenchy · · Score: 1

      The question now becomes: will this generate more energy than it takes? And can it sustain power generation?

      Ignition is the condition whereby more energy is generated than was required in the first place. This is the goal NIF are aiming for and, by all accounts, will achieve in the next couple of years. The big problems come in trying to scale this up to a commercially viable power plant. Currently, the targets used in NIF cost ~$1000 each, and for a power plant ten are required every second.

      And will ITER be quickly refactored to take this into account? Will the EU combine HiPER (high-energy laser projects) and ITER? Will the USA share its latest discovery with its ITER partners?

      ITER and NIF/HiPER are two completely different ways of achieving fusion - magnetic confinement and inertial confinement fusion. There is no need to 'refactor' ITER in light of the NIF results, since for the most part these results don't impact on ITER. Potentially, we could use both methods to generate energy in the future but they are completely distinct projects.

      And, let's admit everything works: what quantity of nuclear waste will such a machine produce? And of what type?

      I'm not sure about NIF since I work in magnetic confinement fusion, but in ITER, the main radiactive product will be tritium, whose half-life is just 12 years. This means that within a century, all materials from ITER should be perfectly safe to recycle. Also, there is only ever a few grams of fuel in any fusion experiment, so if something goes wrong there can't be any huge explosions, This is one of the reasons for the often cited inherent safety of fusion power.

    5. Re:Yes, but is it REALLY working? by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And can it sustain power generation?

      You're talking about zapping a very small, supercooled, gold-uranium alloy target with a beryllium sphere containing about 1mg of DT fuel, about 10 times a second.

      Have a thought experiment about the engineering involved

      • Producing the "ammunition" - bear in mind that tritium is one of the rarest and most expensive substances on earth[1]
      • Positioning it and aligning it - ten times a second
      • Charging and firing the most powerful laser array on earth - ten times a second
      • Somehow removing the heat from the reactor vessel without impeding the laser paths

      what quantity of nuclear waste will such a machine produce?

      DT fusion produces fast neutrons, so some. You're looking at much shorter half-lives ; the reactor core will have the same activity as coal ash after about 300 years.

      And will ITER be quickly refactored to take this into account?

      ITER is a totally different design, so no. I think ITER is a far more credible design than laser-fusion, given that the engineering challenges seem some orders of magnitude easier.

      NIF is just a testbed for nuclear fusion, without the inconveniently illegal use of real nuclear weapons.

      [1]

      If you're firing at 1mg of fuel, by mass, 3/5 of it is Tritium or 0.6mg so (60 * 60 * 24) seconds in day * 10 per second * 0.0006 g = 518.4 g of tritium per day.

      The total production in the USA between 1955 and 1996 was 225kg ; the stockpile in 1996 stood at 75kg

    6. Re:Yes, but is it REALLY working? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Technically the process will generate some radioactive material due to neutron activation of the reactor components, but we're talking small amounts that only need to be stored for a few decades until they are perfectly safe.

      One interesting proposal has been to use the neutron flux produced by fusion reactors to transmute long-lived high-level radioactive waste produced in fission reactors into short-lived waste products. So potentially the by-product of fusion reactors would allow us to reduce the impact of fission reactors.

    7. Re:Yes, but is it REALLY working? by cowscows · · Score: 1

      The hardest issue with fission nuclear waste is that it stays dangerous for thousands of years. We don't have much experience with storing things for that long, and you can't reuse any of the storage facility space because once you pack it full, it's full for a long time. And over those thousands of years time span, issues like seismic activity and ground water get way more complicated.

      It's not really a big deal to build a giant underground warehouse and store radioactive stuff in it for a few years. If you've got more stuff, then build a few more underground warehouses. Mildly expensive, but really not all that difficult. With fusion-based nuclear waste the radioactivity fades pretty quickly, then the waste ceases to be dangerous, you take it out and throw it in a more regular landfill (maybe even recycle it I dunno). Then you've got a bunch more space in your warehouse. It's a whole lot simpler.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    8. Re:Yes, but is it REALLY working? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the byproducts are Helium-4

      Ah-ha! The real reason for this is to sell more balloons for children's parties.

      I'm on to you...

    9. Re:Yes, but is it REALLY working? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just wanted to point out that just because you want a reaction 10 times a second doesn't mean you have to empty out the chamber and position a new pellet 10 times a second.

      It sound like the biggest cost in this technique is the large array of lasers. As such you could build 10 chambers and ignite them in order (think engine cylinders, for a car analogy).

      You'd still need to fire your lasers 10 times a second, and need quick moving mirrors/light guides to route to each chamber, but it would make most of the other problems easier to deal with.

      Tritium can be produced by absorption of neutrons (which this generates), but probably not in enough quantity to fuel this. Maybe with Lithium-7 or Helium 3 targets in the reactor they can produce more. They'll probably have to go to deuterium/deuterium fusion or build a facility to generate the tritium using their neutron and/or electricity.

    10. Re:Yes, but is it REALLY working? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      Your leaving out that a reactor will bread tritium.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    11. Re:Yes, but is it REALLY working? by eth1 · · Score: 1

      Except that your damn helium smog will make us all sound funny!

    12. Re:Yes, but is it REALLY working? by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

      Bread tritium? Sounds like it'll have a really light crust. Yummy!

    13. Re:Yes, but is it REALLY working? by damasterwc · · Score: 1

      that's where He3 comes in... directly converts to energy and we'll experience a leap in efficiency as a consequence. somebody please explain to our idiot-in-chief not to cancel constellation.

    14. Re:Yes, but is it REALLY working? by tragedy · · Score: 1

      Tritium isn't really that incredibly rare. Granted, there's probably only about 6 tons in the earths oceans, but it has to be considered in terms of how much is actually needed, rather than absolute quantity. Also, it has a half life of about 12.5 years, so the fact that the amount in the oceans remains pretty much constant means that it's being replenished constantly from radioactive decay of other elements. Plus, of course, we can just make the stuff from other, more common, isotopes and a neutron source (such as a neutron reactor).

    15. Re:Yes, but is it REALLY working? by inKubus · · Score: 1

      Exactly, they need to find a fuel or fuel package (tuned carbon lattice) that will release/convert most of the energy in the microwave range, then just use a big inductor around or near the reactor to pipe it right out as electrons.

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
    16. Re:Yes, but is it REALLY working? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      directly converts to energy and we'll experience a leap in efficiency as a consequence. somebody please explain to our idiot-in-chief not to cancel constellation.

      Sorry, but if the premise is we're going to want to mine He-3 for fusion reactors, then motivating the commercial sector to provide that capability is the best decision, and canceling the constellation boondoggle goes right along with that.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
  16. Ignition not economical by pavon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The 15 to 20 years estimate is always for energy-positive, viable power plant. The one year date is just when this particular device will be fully operational. There are already many operational fusion devices that exist for research, and this adds another that may or may not give us a breakthrough.

    1. Re:Ignition not economical by Jojoba86 · · Score: 1

      This is more than that, this is the first time controlled gain in a target will be achieved. As you say, you can already get fusion going without many problems, but getting more energy out than you put in is the hard bit, and that's why this is a significant step.

    2. Re:Ignition not economical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We DO have a high-energy, viable power plant... nuclear!

      Oh, wait, that's right... noone on earth is allowed to make those, because of the theoretical, vague possibility that it MIGHT be sometime in the future possibly used to make a weapon.

      Aren't society's decision-makers wonderful?

      So... as soon as anyone, anywhere on earth figures out a way to MAYBE turn this into a weapon, it'll be scrapped and never touched again. Yay, more coal and oil power! Because THAT certainly can't run out!

  17. Brilliant! by jaguth · · Score: 0

    Soon there will be enough energy to power my Dual SLI GeForce 9800 GX2!

  18. Re:Within a Year? Blasphemy! by gmueckl · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My interpretation is simply that they want to reach the density and temperature required to start fusion within the plasma. This only means that the fusion reaction is starting to happen. Only after that can one start to ask the interesting questions (can enough energy be extracted to have a net surplus? can the energy output be improved? is this economically viable?). So they aren't done for several years yet.

    --
    http://www.moonlight3d.eu/
  19. 192 lasers? Simultaneously? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Screw the technology. I wanna know who the fricken' shark trainer is!

  20. Lasers? by RealErmine · · Score: 4, Funny

    Why aren't they using an array of neural-network-controlled, articulated metal arms to control the fusion chamber?

    --
    Dewey, you fool! Your decimal system has played right into my hands!
    1. Re:Lasers? by MartinSchou · · Score: 1

      Sharks were cheaper.

    2. Re:Lasers? by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      Not enough Tritium.

    3. Re:Lasers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Duh! You've seen that documentary, haven't you? The one where that poor doctor guy had these neural-network-controlled-articulated-metal arms that went crazy! Luckily there was this awkward-nerdy kid wearing tights who lived in his aunt's attic (yes, an upgrade to your mother's basement) who was able to calm the doctor guy down.

    4. Re:Lasers? by Starlet+Monroe · · Score: 2, Funny

      >Why aren't they using an array of neural-network-controlled, articulated metal arms to control the fusion chamber

      Yeah, where's waldo?!

      --
      ++
    5. Re:Lasers? by corbettw · · Score: 1

      Yeah, cause that worked out SOOOOO well for the last guy.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    6. Re:Lasers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because they know what happened to the last guy that tried it that way. Some experiments you don't replicate.

  21. Re:Within a Year? Blasphemy! by timeOday · · Score: 1
    The more I read your comment, the less I can tell whether you're mocking a silly conspiracy or trying to create one. But either way, even with a successful ignition tomorrow, I'm sure it would still take 15 years or more to get electricity from it onto the grid. Even building a fission reactor with a proven design takes about that long in the US. But besides just working, fusion would have to produce more energy than it consumes, it has to be scaled up to a significant output, and then the price has to come way, way down... even as low as simply digging up and burning coal (unless we start accounting for the future costs of doing that which doesn't seem to be happening).

    But don't get me wrong, I am amazed at this. And if (earth-bound) fusion becomes a workable energy source, I think it would have the biggest practical impact of any Big Science program, ever.

  22. National Ignition Facility? by lxs · · Score: 4, Funny

    Are you sure it's wise to ignite your nation?

    I'm glad that there's plenty of water between me and the nation in question.

    1. Re:National Ignition Facility? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 4, Funny

      They didn't say which nation they'd be igniting. I'm looking at you, Cyprus.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    2. Re:National Ignition Facility? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We didn't start the fire
      It was always burnin
      since the world's been turnin

    3. Re:National Ignition Facility? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Hate to tell ya, but we’d be the ones dying from the nuclear winter style smoke, clouds and coldness, while “our” politicians would search a scapegoat for this “act of terrorism of employing weapons of mass destruction (fire)” (anyone but the now burning USA itself, of course), making all forms of combustion illegal and build themselves a nice geothermally heated lair under a volcano.

      I’d even bet money that this would happen!

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  23. As one doctor to another, freaking wonderful! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The project lead, Dr. Sigfried Glenzer, is "confident that with everything in place, ignition is on the horizon. He added, quite simply, 'It's going to happen this year."

    That's freaking wonderful news, Siggy! I have the sharks ready, just bring the freakin lasers and let's burn this joint! *evil pinky smile*

  24. Re:Within a Year? Blasphemy! by T+Murphy · · Score: 1

    Note he is just saying they should start hydrogen burn this year. The 20 years thing is for economically viable fusion power plants- this research helps bring us closer to that but 20 years would still be optimistic. This announcement is like the LHC saying they'll be running the beam at full power by the end of the year (but without the bad track record for the equipment)- you seem to treat it similar to CERN saying they will find the Higgs by the end of the year. His prediction sounds reasonable enough to me.

  25. Bullshit until it's peer reviewed by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

    My house, Saturday night. Bring Your Own Bottle and Laser Pointer.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  26. Not yet by syrinx · · Score: 2, Funny

    Everyone knows fusion power doesn't become available until 2050, and microwave power comes first.

    --
    Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
    1. Re:Not yet by oloron · · Score: 1

      ya but if my sim-memory hasn't failed me, its what only 50k per reactor? sweeeeeet spot!

  27. Please calm down... by Yvanhoe · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't understand why this is even doing news. The temperatures that were reach are commonly reached inside tokamaks. Fusion itself has already been sustained in them for several seconds,a feat a laser confinement mechanism cannot do. Of course these reactions did use more energy than it created. Laser mechanisms have a longer way to go in order to be credible fusion power plants.

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    1. Re:Please calm down... by Jojoba86 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Of course laser fusion can't provide a sustained burn for seconds, that's not how it works! Your car engine doesn't burn fuel in a sustained way, but it does a pretty good job of providing enough average power right?

      The key point here it's a step towards getting gain in a fusion plasma. And hopefully in 2010. The earliest a tokamak is likely to achieve the same is 2020. The steps towards a powerplant are different for tokamaks and lasers, but high rep-rate lasers exist and projects like HiPER will look to address these issues.

    2. Re:Please calm down... by plague911 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Laser mechanisms have a longer way to go in order to be credible fusion power plants." ... They all do... As someone who has done some work with tokamaks sure we should be able to break even with energy. But honestly people have no idea when they would break even financially with other tech... If ever.

    3. Re:Please calm down... by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      If you are in the field, can you explain why such a temperature is significant ? Was it never attained with this kind of tech ?
      I was under the impression that higher temperatures were common in fusion research. I mean, the Z-machine reached more than 2 billions Kelvins : http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2006/physics-astron/hottest-z-output.html

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    4. Re:Please calm down... by Jojoba86 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Nothing in the article or summary said the temperature was important. Temperature is a bit more of an abstract concept in this type of experiment, as the overall energy is small (kettle boiling energies). For fusion however it's temperature x density x volume that's the important thing, and laser fusion achieves very high densities.

      The important points were that a) this is a record laser energy and b) the absorption in the holhraum from the laser was 95%, much higher than was expected. This means gain in a target (ignition) is looking very likely.

      *I'm also in the field

    5. Re:Please calm down... by newcastlejon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Temperature is important if you take it to mean the energy that the particles have; naturally it has nothing to do with the total energy in the reactants. The product of temp., density and pressure is crucial but if the reactants aren't moving fast enough to overcome the coulomb barrier then you won't see fusion happening at all.

      Temperature isn't necessarily the best metric to use though, because not all fusion machines have their reactants' energies forming a Maxwellian distribution. Such a device has the reactants all at the same energy, which would render the conventional idea of temperature entirely meaningless.

      Coming back to the NIF, it's certainly really cool science - frickin' lasers and all - but the idea of a massive machine like this, which destroys a significant portion of the reaction chamber after each firing doesn't lead me to think of a workable power plant. I'm probably biased towards the Bussard crew, but a handful of SC coils in a vacuum chamber seems a lot more feasible than 200 lasers that have to be fired together with ps precision.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    6. Re:Please calm down... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NIF has a really clever PR team, that's all.

    7. Re:Please calm down... by 5pp000 · · Score: 1

      Fusion itself has already been sustained in [tokamaks] for several seconds, a feat a laser confinement mechanism cannot do. Laser mechanisms have a longer way to go in order to be credible fusion power plants.
      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.

      So, you're saying that the people working on laser fusion are Fools?

      --
      Your god may be dead, but mine aren't!
  28. Re:Within a Year? Blasphemy! by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

    What you are describing is Frank Herbert's: The Tactful Saboteur. An excellent short story.

    In Lieu of Red Tape

    --
    I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
  29. Trying to source a quote by adipocere · · Score: 1

    .. which said that it was never that fusion was 50 years away, but that it was 500 billion dollars away. The fifty years was just an estimate based on how much funding, brainpower, and so forth went into it. Let's face it, you can't just put a basket in a storage locker with a placard atop it reading FUSION, then come back in fifty years and expect to find something in the basket.

    We have not spent the large amounts of money required to do the research. When we do, it's in fits and starts, buffeted by people with ecodread and slavered over by those in the DOD who lust for some new level of destruction. It's always been easy to just ... drill another well. Blow up another mountaintop for coal that they assure us will be clean, this time around.

    1. Re:Trying to source a quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now you tell me!!

    2. Re:Trying to source a quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's face it, you can't just put a basket in a storage locker with a placard atop it reading FUSION, then come back in fifty years and expect to find something in the basket.

      Fuck!

    3. Re:Trying to source a quote by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      you can't just put a basket in a storage locker with a placard atop it reading FUSION, then come back in fifty years and expect to find something in the basket.

      Of course not. The basket would catch fire.

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
  30. Not twenty years out by oloron · · Score: 1

    c'mon read the fine(?) article, the guy says its going to happen this year, so at most that means about 5 years, not twenty, c'mon he didnt say first quarter next year did he? I could see 20yrs then

  31. Fantastic Four by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is there any truth to that part in the Fantastic Four movie, where the human torch went so hot that he almost ignited the earth's atmosphere?

    Any danger of this scenario happening with that laser fusion experiment?

    1. Re:Fantastic Four by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Is there any truth to that part in the Fantastic Four movie, where the human torch went so hot that he almost ignited the earth's atmosphere?

      Any danger of this scenario happening with that laser fusion experiment?

      There have been plenty of bomb tests utilizing hydrogen fusion; I'm quite sure they have produced more energy/heat than this experiment. So if the atmosphere would be ignited by that level of fusion energy, I'm pretty sure that we wouldn't exist any more.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    2. Re:Fantastic Four by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      There was no truth in that scene, the human torch doesn't really exist.

  32. Ignition = net positive energy by dtolman · · Score: 3, Informative

    By definition, when they achieve ignition - there will be a self sustained, fusion reaction - the fusion reaction will sustain itself until its fuel is exhausted. More energy will be produced than was put in - a net positive in energy.

    Of course there isn't any mechanism in NIF to collect the energy, but thats not really the point of the project...

    1. Re:Ignition = net positive energy by jank1887 · · Score: 2, Informative

      More energy will be _released_ than was put in - a net positive in energy.

      your don't produce energy. you release it. just saying.

    2. Re:Ignition = net positive energy by dtolman · · Score: 1

      Yeah - I realized that after I hit submit. I miss "edit post" on Slashdot.

    3. Re:Ignition = net positive energy by linuxpyro · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Would this basically be like creating a tiny star?

      --
      Saying "I'll probably get modded down for this" in a post is the best way to get it modded up.
    4. Re:Ignition = net positive energy by pauljlucas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      By definition, when they achieve ignition - there will be a self sustained, fusion reaction - the fusion reaction will sustain itself until its fuel is exhausted.

      AFAIK, this method of fusion is not nor will ever be self-sustained -- it simply doesn't work that way. You have to repeatedly fire the laser, once per fuel pellet. Once the pellet ignites, energy is released. After it's released, the pellet is exhausted. To release more energy, you have to insert a new pellet and repeat. It's not like there's a lot of fuel at the focus of the lasers that just needs one firing to ignite the fuel and it will chain-react. The only way to have a chain-reaction sustain itself with no input of energy would be to have the fuel at the high pressure and high temperature that's found at the core of a star. The laser temporarily creates a tiny spot of such pressure and temperature, but there's no way the reaction can sustain itself without repeated firing of the lasers.

      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    5. Re:Ignition = net positive energy by dtolman · · Score: 3, Informative

      uh... you must have a different definition of self-sustained than I do. Just because it isn't a star doesn't make it a failure. This isn't an infinite energy source they are producing. Its just one that will create a nuclear fusion reaction that doesn't require any more outside help to continue.

      The reaction will be self-sustained until the fuel (a single tiny pellet) is exhausted.

    6. Re:Ignition = net positive energy by pauljlucas · · Score: 1

      That's a very narrow definition of self-sustained and would be counter-intuitive for most people. Compare this with a self-sustained fission reaction where it really does sustain itself with no input of energy whatsoever after the initial neutron bombardment.

      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    7. Re:Ignition = net positive energy by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      where it really does sustain itself with no input of energy whatsoever after the initial neutron bombardment.

      Until the fuel runs out.

      Exactly like here.

      They just have to put new fuel in and start a new reaction more frequently.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    8. Re:Ignition = net positive energy by dtolman · · Score: 1

      This is the definition of Ignition. I can't help that its disappointing compared to the concept of some eternal ball of hot plasma feeding itself.

      Since most people don't even know the slightest thing about fusion energy, I doubt they have much notions about it one way or the other...

    9. Re:Ignition = net positive energy by MoonBuggy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes in that stars release energy by nuclear fusion (although there are different types of fusion cycle depending on the temperature of the star), no in that stars are self-confining and self-perpetuating (for limited values of 'perpetual').

      Although I'm sure we'll be swamped by sound bites from the media talking about how we've "created a star" or some such, there's not actually a huge amount that can be deduced based on that information. I don't mean to belittle your question at all - as I said it is a fairly apt comparison, but this is more the domain of particle physicists than astrophysicists.

    10. Re:Ignition = net positive energy by pauljlucas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What most people know about nuclear energy is that it's "bad" and can release radiation in the case of a melt-down. Most people don't know that there are two flavors of reaction. They also don't know that it's impossible for fusion induced by laser ignition to chain-react on the macro scale and cause a melt-down.

      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    11. Re:Ignition = net positive energy by dtolman · · Score: 1

      See - we agree - most people would have no idea :)

      Like Louis Armstrong said: Some folks, if they don't know, you can't tell 'em

    12. Re:Ignition = net positive energy by linuxpyro · · Score: 1

      I see what you're saying. But it's still pretty neat that we'd basically be creating something similar like that. I hope that however it does get publicized there's not too much backlash.

      --
      Saying "I'll probably get modded down for this" in a post is the best way to get it modded up.
    13. Re:Ignition = net positive energy by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 1

      Would this basically be like creating a tiny star?

      Yes. Just remember to shield your robotic arms, you never know what can happen :)

    14. Re:Ignition = net positive energy by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but laser fusion systems aren't self-sustaining. The lasers smash a compression wave into the hydorgen, it fuses, this releases heat causing an expansion, and it rarefies. Think of it as an amplifier. A very complex amplifier for electricity, which burns hydrogen. If you stop feeding in power, the reaction stops in it's tracks. (This is actually good. You don't want a self-sustaining fusion reaction on the surface of the planet you're currently living on.)

      So in this case, ignition just means that the amplifier has a positive gain. It "increases the signal strength".

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    15. Re:Ignition = net positive energy by srleffler · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No, the gp was right but you misunderstood. "Ignition" means that the laser triggers a self-sustained reaction within the pellet. The laser fires once per pellet. By itself, the laser doesn't provide enough energy to fuse more than a tiny fraction of the atoms in the pellet before it explodes. Ignition means that the energy from the laser-triggered fusion helps sustain the temperature and pressure in the pellet long enough for a greater fraction of the atoms to fuse. I don' t know if the amount expected to fuse is a significant fraction of the total atoms in the pellet--I suspect not, but ignition means that many times more atoms fuse than would otherwise.

    16. Re:Ignition = net positive energy by dtolman · · Score: 1

      But it doesn't stop in its tracks - the initial fusion creates enough heat to cause fusion reactions around it, and so on - all without additional outside energy - thus ignition.

      Its self sustaining as long as the right conditions exists - "fuel", temperature, density - its only stopping because of the fuel being used up.

      Am I missing something here? Semantic difference?

    17. Re:Ignition = net positive energy by HiThere · · Score: 1

      That's the way it works for magnetic fusion. In fact, magnetic confinement fusion depends on it working that way. In laser fusion, each little drop of liquid hydrogen fuses separately, and it *does* "stop in its tracks".

      At least that's this design. There are some combination proposals that combine magnetic confinement with laser fusion...or there were. I haven't heard of one recently (but then I haven't been listening).

      The thing is, this approach to laser ignition doesn't have ANY confinement, so there's no continual fusion.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  33. So what by tjstork · · Score: 1

    However, just as with fission, it's likely nothing will be built without massive amounts of subsidy, and it will pay off only in a span of decades

    I think you would actually find a coalition of both democrats and republicans that could be for fusion subsidies. And, the whole lot will get cheaper as the much smaller free electron lasers replace the laser design in NIF.

    --
    This is my sig.
  34. That's alot of sardines... by archer,+the · · Score: 1

    I wouldn't want to be the guy feeding the 192 sharks. I'd want to be paid an arm and a leg in advance. Literally.

    1. Re:That's alot of sardines... by SnarfQuest · · Score: 1

      You used to hear about people running shopping carts full of tubes through those old computers to replace the blown components and keep the machine running. Are they going to need to run shopping carts full of sharks to keep this thing running?

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
  35. So when, when? by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    When will I be able to walk into Walmart and buy my very own light-saber, is what I want to know!

  36. Ah, it's digital. That explains it. by fyngyrz · · Score: 0, Troll

    And you believe that a digital readout contains no error, why???

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Ah, it's digital. That explains it. by entoke · · Score: 3, Funny

      since it was perfect

    2. Re:Ah, it's digital. That explains it. by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Doc Brown would never make a mistake when it comes to SCIENCE!

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    3. Re:Ah, it's digital. That explains it. by Asclepius99 · · Score: 1

      I'm not vouching for digital readouts, but I'm assuming a guy that can build a flying time machine car and a flying time machine train (which was originally a train he turned into a time machine in 1885) wouldn't have too much of a problem creating an extremely accurate speedometer.

    4. Re:Ah, it's digital. That explains it. by AmigaMMC · · Score: 1

      You guys really believe all this to be real, don't you? :)

    5. Re:Ah, it's digital. That explains it. by eleuthero · · Score: 1

      No, no, they changed all the names to protect the identities of the characters. Doc Brown's real name is not so important ... he's just the Doctor to most folks anyway... and you have seen the fictionalized version of that part of his life, right? He's way better at creating time machines than anybody might have guessed... phone booths and all

    6. Re:Ah, it's digital. That explains it. by ImprovOmega · · Score: 1

      And you believe that a digital readout contains no error, why???

      I can picture you watching "Back to the Future" as a kid - oh wow, it travels through time, oooh he timed it perfectly so he hit the lightning wire at the precise moment of the strike to power the flux capacitor!

      Wait a minute...the speedometer reads *exactly* 88mph and is perfectly calibrated?!?!? Oh fuck this movie, I don't believe it anymore!

    7. Re:Ah, it's digital. That explains it. by youn · · Score: 1

      no way, you mean it isn't?

      first santa claus, then now doc brown... what is left? :)

      --
      Never antropomorphize computers, they do not like that :p
    8. Re:Ah, it's digital. That explains it. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Because ti was built by fucking Dr. Emmet Brown, that's why~

      Which part are you not getting?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  37. steam?! by jcgam69 · · Score: 1

    A commercial reactor would generate steam to drive a turbine to create electricity at about 35% efficiency. We've been using steam to generate electricity for at least 100 years. There HAS to be a better way.

    1. Re:steam?! by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      There HAS to be a better way.

      Why dose the universe need to provide a better way? We have improved heat engines quite a bit over the years.

      Oh and hotter power stations use gas turbines (both open and closed, still a heat engine) and a steam bottoming cycle getting about 50% efficiency.The low level waste heat is sometimes sold to the neighboring areas for heating in some places..

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    2. Re:steam?! by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

      There is... in theory.

      A reactor design using a dense plasma focus is supposed to have two products from which you can directly get electricity, a stream of high velocity helium ions (you get the energy out of them by electrobraking them), and X-rays (the team concerned has a sort of gamma-photovoltaic-cell design consisting of many metal foil layers).

      The team has an aggressive timetable... so at least we'll know in less than 30 years whether it's going to work...

  38. Trademark violation? by FauxPasIII · · Score: 1

    So, we're now using lasers to control fusion? Are we sure Gillette doesn't already own the rights to this?

    (Suggested keywords for reply jokes: excel, sensor, stealth)

    --
    25% Funny, 25% Insightful, 25% Informative, 25% Troll
    1. Re:Trademark violation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your joke excels at stealthing past my sensors?

  39. Sharks by mfh · · Score: 1

    With frickin' fusion lasers!

    --
    The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
  40. We don't care, tomorrow we have overunity. by master_p · · Score: 1


    Here.
    </joke>

  41. Oil Men by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

    I personally know a big oil guy who, with a couple of drinks in him, argued that if free energy were discovered tomorrow, then the whole economy of the world would collapse. Personally, I think he was just egocentric and had been hanging around too many refineries. Certainly his world and income would collapse. Of course, he simultaneously argued that oil production was used for so many applications that the world was dependent on it and could not function without it. To this day I'm a little confused how you can go broke from no longer being needed and take everyone that desperately needs you down with.
    This was a silver tongued Texan salesman who kept expanding software requirements though, so everyething his says needs a fist-sized grain of salt with it.

    Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that they would definitely try to kill this sort thing, and they would use the flimsiest of excuses, and actually belive their own bullshit. They would believe they're helping the world by nuking fusion projects.

    I'm glad I got out of that industry...

    1. Re:Oil Men by dpilot · · Score: 2, Interesting

      People who make their money on scarcity fear the onset of plenty.

      Everyone suffers from the, "What's good for me is good for America," syndrome, even me.

      Put those two together, and you get your friend from Texas - or the MafiAA.

      There's no shortage of science fiction that examines the impact of the "replicator" on society, sometimes as a side-item. I know a co-worker who is uncomfortable with ST:NG because it was "too socialistic". The way I looked at the series, the basics of life were so cheap that under normal circumstances they could be taken for granted, most of the time. Everyone had moved beyond that on the hierarchy of needs, and their concerns were much more sophisticated.

      Or for another example I would suggest Joe Haldeman's "The Forever Peace". It's not a sequel to "The Forever War" - that's "Forever Free", but it's an excellent book in its own right, and touches on some fascinating topics.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
  42. So by maroberts · · Score: 1

    If we have 192 sharks with frickin' lasers strapped to their heads all pointed in the right direction, we'll have fusion, right?

    --

    Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
    Karma: Chameleon

  43. as a physicsist... by Goldsmith · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm a physicist, I love these experiments, but...

    The people running this thing need to think really, *really* hard how their comments play out in the media, maybe try and be a little more clear. The difference between getting fusion (the physical process) to work and getting fusion (the power generation system) to work is huge! Should they accomplish their goals in a year, they will still be a very long way away from thinking about building an electricity generating system. The line of "getting more power out than we put in" for fusion in the lab was crossed decades ago, and it's still unclear how doing this with yet another method of creating a fusion plasma is going to result in a more straightforward commercial reactor design.

    This is how we end up with government officials who think we're all full of hyperbole, and don't actually do any work. I know they're fighting for their jobs at Livermore, but I don't see how they can keep this up long term. At some point, some Congressional committee is going to ask them to deliver on what has been promised, even if it was a confused, incorrect promise mis-translated by the media.

    1. Re:as a physicsist... by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The line of "getting more power out than we put in" for fusion in the lab was crossed decades ago..

      Care to back that up. Other than nuclear bombs, there is no fusion device that has achieved ignition (which is not the same as getting more power out than you put in) that i am aware of, and i keep up with the field.

      Ignition can be described as fusion energy output is higher than losses from the plasma.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    2. Re:as a physicsist... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously the GP was talking about breakeven. One of the Japanese tokamaks has gotten to "theoretical" breakeven; they can't/don't use tritium so they extrapolated from D-D.

    3. Re:as a physicsist... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish I had mod points. I agree.

    4. Re:as a physicsist... by Goldsmith · · Score: 1

      "Ignition" in fusion requires a device in which no energy needs to be input to sustain a "burning plasma."

      That would be nice to achieve. If you take a careful look at the specs for NIF, you'll see that even if they achieve "ignition" with their pellets, they will not reach the energy break even point. To me, the way they're handling this is a bit deceptive. It's a goal for simulating nuclear bombs, but not one for energy generation. It does no good to talk about ignition here if that doesn't even *theoretically* get you to break even on your device, which magnetically confined plasmas have been doing for a long time now.

      Again, the point is NOT what the words mean to a physicist, but what they mean to the news media and politicians!

    5. Re:as a physicsist... by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      No they didn't. We have got close, but no one has got ignition yet. Break even at the "wall" is even harder. But technically a much smaller step to take one you have achieved ignition.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    6. Re:as a physicsist... by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      I agree which is why i defined ignition in terms of plasma energy loss. I don't think they are being deliberately misleading. It is what ignition means in the field, and they probably don't get out much ;). Hell they probably even explained to the reporter! However the next step is technically much easier, since the heat can come from the fusion itself rather than bigger lasers.

      If/When the manage ignition it will be a big deal. It will be the first time that has been achieved without a fission trigger and in a size that allows for much easier study. Yes this does have definite applications to both current bomb stockpile stewardship, and even designing better bombs. But it also has direct application in terms of study to civilian applications.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
  44. Can someone please explain... by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

    How is this better than taking direct (solar panels and mirror arrays) and indirect advantage of that local fusion reactor, the sun? While fusion is high tech and cool and all that, we can still make a *lot* of power by damming thousands of smaller rivers and putting in mid size hydroelectric plants. No new technology is needed, and ecological concerns can be addressed by diverting only part of the water to a manmade channel and not touching the original riverbed.

    So yes, fusion is neat, but I think it's kind of dumb as cost effective engineering solutions go.

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    1. Re:Can someone please explain... by eabrek · · Score: 1

      1. NIF is not about producing power. It is a nuclear weapons research facility. They mention fusion power to help sell the public.
      2. Power density. Think aircraft carriers (and space craft)

    2. Re:Can someone please explain... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      density, availablilty.

      I am a big proponent of Industrial Solar thermal. You can get more power per Sqr meter then with solar power in amny areas. In fact, woudl coulf build a huge arrain in Texas, NM, AZ to handkle most of outr power nedes, but use goes up, and land is finite.

      Fusion has the potential to generate a lot of energy, more then we get from the sun in the same space.

      Other features are space travel, where solar isn't exactly optimal Past mars

      I wuld love to see them build IFRs as well, to help with the base load generated from IST.

      Do some Solar panel math.

      About 1Kw energy hits evers square meter. Look at the efficience of a solar panel.
      Now look at how much area it would take to power all are electricity. Plus you need to store it. IT has it's place, but as for solving a significant piece of are needs? no.

      There are huge environmental impact from 'damning' of smaller rivers. Also cost factors., and the fact that the number of damns you can have has a pratcial limet. ! damn per X amount of lower feet of elevation. So if a river drops 500 feet over 1000 miles, you can only have 1 damn. those number should be checked, but I think they illistrat the issue I am talking about.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  45. fuck, more geopolitics of scarcity then ;-( by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    oh well, i guess in 2030 the usa will be invading bolivia

    bolivia has the world's largest deposits of lithium, by a long shot

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/03/world/americas/03lithium.html

    maybe its time we look off-world for unobtainium ;-P

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:fuck, more geopolitics of scarcity then ;-( by hoggoth · · Score: 1

      Top stories tonight: Researches at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory have successfully demonstrated energy positive nuclear fusion in a safe economical design. In unrelated news, the Department of Homeland Security has announced that Bolivia is massing weapons of mass destruction and must be invaded before it's too late.

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
  46. you've been watching too many movies by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    1. the way chinese and american research funding is going, self-sustaining ignition will probably happen in chengdu before it happens in chicago

    2. if the usa does achieve ignition, it will probably share the knowledge. no, really: its in their soft-power interest to do so, and for all the geopolitical reasons i mentioned above. when the usa shares such energy independence knowledge, their enemies, mostly funded by energy scarcity resources, suffer, they don't benefit. and even if the usa doesn't share, or someone like china achieves it first and doesn't share the knowledge, the fact that ignition has been achieved somewhere, anywhere, will convince everyone else to quickly catch up with their own research: there's no groping in the dark anymore, the goal is starkly defined in technical aspects that any serious researcher in the world will understand, and all the purse strings will be opened quickly to capitalize on the bonanza. america being tight-lipped atom bomb secrets did not stop russia, china, britain, france, india, israel, pakistan, etc., or even basket case north korea from figuring it out, or, as with pakistan and khan, outright stealing the secrets (from the netherlands, in pakistan's case), and then selling it to libya, iran, etc.

    3. i saw that keanu reeves/ morgan freeman "chain reaction" movie too. it was cute. but you do release that hollywood movies purposefully engage in paranoid delusional fantasy for entertainment value, not serious education about reality, right?

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:you've been watching too many movies by PagosaSam · · Score: 1

      Seriously, if you want everybody to know about it, try to keep it a secret!

      --
      :q! Oh crap, not again...
    2. Re:you've been watching too many movies by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      uuuuuhhhhhhh.....

      The coward was trying to say that fusion research should be treated like the Manhattan project was. In that it was well funded and had top priority by the government.
      I pointed out that the the Manhattan project was also highly secretive and the bomb was used for questionable means afterwards. Ya get it?

      I'd agree that we should and would share the tech. Duh.

      The only thing I remember from the movie is a lathe, Reeves failing to act, a stupid plot line, and explosions. Oddly enough, I was just talking to a co-worker about it and how I knew this big oil guy who argued that the whole world economy would collapse if the world had free energy tomorrow. I chalked it up to an inflated ego and hanging around refineries too much.

  47. Homemade fusion by Kazymyr · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    In the meantime, amateurs build fusion devices in their basements and achieve real measurable D-D fusion:

    http://www.fusor.net/

    --
    I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet -Stanislaw Lem
    1. Re:Homemade fusion by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      Fusion is easy. Fusion with energy gain is hard.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    2. Re:Homemade fusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting. A post about fusion in a thread about fusion, yet marked off-topic. Very interesting.

  48. 1.2 Gigawatts by roman_mir · · Score: 1

    FTFA: The current calculations show that about 1.2 megajoules of energy will be enough for ignition, and currently Nif can run as high as 1.8 megajoules. - also see, they only need to scale this thing 10^3 times to get to the needed energy output. Let's just hope there is at least one DeLorean left by the time they can get this sucker going (and obviously they need to sustain that output at least for a second I guess).

    1. Re:1.2 Gigawatts by Scragglykat · · Score: 1

      Luckily, all the spare parts and manufacturing equipment have been sold to a company that is producing the cars yet again...

    2. Re:1.2 Gigawatts by Scragglykat · · Score: 1
  49. absolutely true by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    the waste management of fusion products, including irradiated containment vessels, is a serious issue, and its not my intent to belittle or whitewash that point

    but the point is that there is no energy source anywhere that doesn't have downsides. think of the waste products in the production of solar panels and the massive amounts of land and expense needed to make a dent in power needs from solar. think of the effects of wind on migratory birds, and noise and landscape alterations from wind power. heck, tidal increases silting, which much be dredged, and that has environmental effects. geothermal efforts near san francisco were recently abandoned due to earthquake fears (based on near conclusive evidence a swiss earthquake was caused by geothermal energy research). we know what dams does to migratory aquatic life like salmon and the overall health of rivers and river communities. biofuel costs in terms of landscape utilization, fertilization pollution, processing pollution, eventual pollution from combustion... pick any energy source: its not "free" in terms of downsides

    but fusion's downsides: initial infrastructure cost (big) and ongoing waste management costs (assuming all such pollution can be successfully mitigated and kept from the environment, then that's the only cost from pollution: the money you need to responsibly manage the waste), i assert, when taken in consideration with the zero scarcity of fuel sources and massive potential for energy returns (other energy sources are usually "boutique" and will never scale to our real needs), is the best energy source mankind will EVER discover (until some bizarre far future where physicists discover star trek-type energy sources, like, uh... zero point flux accretion... of course), and lead to a golden age of civilization and progress. i really believe that. so much evil today in this world can directly be traced to the moral, environmental, and other compromises we make for our energy needs. lots of cheap energy without environmental and geopolitical costs will be a first in the history of mankind, and will be a wonderful time to live. our period in history right now will be viewed as brutal and cruel and immoral as we view the times of the romans today

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  50. Oil dependence isn't a myth by sjbe · · Score: 2, Interesting

    argued that if free energy were discovered tomorrow, then the whole economy of the world would collapse.

    I agree this is clearly nonsense in the long run though some countries (Saudi Arabia, Russia, Venezuela, Mexico, etc) who are primarily dependent on oil income would experience very severe economic problems. It is correct to say that oil is one of the underpinnings of the current economy and it would take some time for adjustment.

    Of course, he simultaneously argued that oil production was used for so many applications that the world was dependent on it and could not function without it.

    For the foreseeable future he is probably correct in that assertion. The number of products we use that have some form of oil-based products is astonishing. Besides fuels like gasoline or diesel, many, many, many other products have oil as a vital component for which there is no substitute. Synthetic fibers, lubricants, paints, plastics, coatings, chemicals, coolants, and fertilizers all jump to mind off the top of my head. Without oil for power and fertilizer, modern agriculture as we know it could not exist. It is entirely correct that our modern world could not function without oil.

  51. Yeah ! by vegiVamp · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Sounds NIFty.

    --
    What a depressingly stupid machine.
  52. Re:Within a Year? Blasphemy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Laser fusion experiment exists to do nuclear testing without technically violating nuclear test treaty obligations. The primary goal **IS NOT** the production of a commercially viable fusion reactor.

  53. what? plastics? by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    with the way oil prices are going, and how deep we have to dig now to get to oil, or how we have process things like shale and tar sands in order to get at it... and how great our advances so far in terms of genetics, biochemistry, materials science, and related processes, i confidently predict 100% of sources for plastics in the future will be from plant-based starting points

    http://consumerist.com/2010/01/new-coke-bottles-made-from-sugar-cane-soda-still-made-from-corn.html

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  54. Re:"just need sea water" by Shompol · · Score: 1

    This sci-fi comedy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin-dza-dza!
    is about a planet where they learned to turn water into energy... and now the planet is 100% desert.

  55. agreed by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    if they can get the crucial fusion fuel requirements down to just deuterium and lithium, maybe salted with a tiny amount of tritium secret sauce at best, then we're talking. until then, as you say, we're far away from practical fusion

    whatever team does that though, they deserve 10 nobels and immortal fame. for they will deliver mankind to a new golden age

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  56. fusion is welfare for PhDs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8827-no-future-for-fusion-power-says-top-scientist.html
    http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1978Sci...199.1403P
    but see http://www.frc.gatech.edu/Policy/fusion_critic_response_stacey.pdf
    for a response
    and anyway, people who back fusion are just stupid; why would you build plants that produce huge amounts of radioactive waste (via neutron capture in the containment shell) when you could have, for the same investment, solar wind and devices that use less energy

  57. Interstate Hwys: A Government Program that Worked by catchblue22 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No, it killed passenger trains.

    Yes, the interstate highway system did kill trains, especially the interurban trains surrounding urban areas. But that isn't the point. The building of the interstate system, a massive government project, succeeded in reaching its goal of allowing the utilization of vast swaths of under-utilized land, allowing commensurate increases in economic capacity. This was the real goal of pushing automobile transportation. Unfortunately, implicit in this goal was a massive surge in urban sprawl, pollution, and most importantly a huge surge in the production of greenhouse gasses.

    I am arguing here that the assumption that government programs always fail and are almost always fundamentally flawed is incorrect, and is not born out by historical evidence. Government CAN achieve constructive goals in society, IF those in government are wise rulers.

    --
    This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
  58. Re:Within a Year? Blasphemy! by maxume · · Score: 1

    Imagine someone who said 15-20 years in 1995. They aren't even wrong yet.

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  59. Polywell by Colin+Walsh · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Navy-funded Polywell experiment is looking to hit break-even in some time less than the frustrating "20 years away" event horizon that's been plaguing magnetic confinement and laser based devices such as this one. I'd say it's a good bet that Polywell will achieve break-even first.

    1. Re:Polywell by newcastlejon · · Score: 1

      I'm a big fan of this project, partly because it seems a lot simpler than the "superconducting cathedral" approaches but mainly because it's the only approach I've seen that could fit into a building rather than needing one built around it. Along with the DPF project I believe it's also the only one that is actively pursuing p-11B fusion.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
  60. rage by conspirator57 · · Score: 1

    i can't tell if this is nerd rage or roid rage...

    given the subject is heading towards sports...

    but this is /.

    either way, lay off the roids.

    --
    "If still these truths be held to be
    Self evident."
    -Edna St. Vincent Millay
  61. Re:Oil dependence isn't a myth, just annoying by uuddlrlrab · · Score: 1

    Well, here's the kicker. It's where the "Oil as a God" argument falls apart, and really is due to a faulty assumption on which said argument is based: Green energy does not completely replace oil, only as a replacement power source, e.g. our electrical grid, and (possibly, depending further advances) for transportation. I've heard & read of various research into creating synthetic fibers & plastic-esque materials based from corn silk and other "natural" materials rather than petroleum, but I don't know how far along such research is.
    Still, it's ridiculous to assume that a collapse is imminent with the advent of a new technology; I'd guess and hope that a change-over would be done more incrementally to see how it would work out. As for the oil barons' financial well being?... Suck it up. Whatever happened to free-market capitalism, and may the best player win, survival of the fittest, etc? If you can't see anything above the edge of the oil barrel in which you live, can't innovate with a new business model to keep up with changing demand, who's fault is that?

    --
    Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
  62. Pencil Perspective by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

    Weird how the photographer held a pencil to point at the laser.

    --
    Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
  63. developing more of our own oil is a loser approach by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    1. i saw the republicans applauding virginia doing offshore drilling in the state of the union response. pfffft. yeah: let's turn the virginia coast into something ugly and polluted, and keep driving fossil fuel burning cars, with their smog and particulates and greenhouse pollutants. furthermore, someday even our domestic deposits will run out, and/ or (if they aren't already) prove to be extremely expensive to extract. gas prices will continue to climb inexorably since demand isn't going down. this is a denialist's "solution", that doesn't take into account the obvious, inevitable need to get off oil as a fuel source

    2. battery technology, indeed, sucks. but you can, even with current technology, bulk up on the batteries some more, and extend driving ranges 2-3x. still, you won't be able to truck goods anywhere or take that cross country trip. big deal: obama is making the shrewd and intelligent and long-overdue investments in our rail infrastructure, which is the real answer to problem of insufficient battery tech

    3. boron is rare. so wherever you mine it as a fuel source (turkey i think), you are just making trade offs in the geopolitical scarcity game, and the game of diminishing returns/ escalating costs

    4. yes: irradiation of containment vessels is a real problem, and don't want to minimize it. however, it can be controlled and managed and minimized so that half-lives are quick and radiation is low power. it will all be very expensive to ramp up these fusion plants too. but its simply the best form of energy possible, and we are very rapidly approaching a world where our energy demands and our energy sources give us no other choice BUT to go to fusion

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  64. When are they going to make a hoverboard? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I really don't care if they end up discovering portals to other worlds or generating limitless energy... I WANT MY HOVERBOARD!

  65. Re:Within a Year? Blasphemy! by HiThere · · Score: 1

    With this design, a successful ignition with a very positive result wouldn't produce commercially practical electricity within 40 years. This isn't a design that has a significant chance at commercial use. (That wasn't it's intent.)

    Where we go from here is dependant as much on political decisions as scientific ones. The scientific ones (including engineering, but not economic) would probably put commercial reactors 20 years out. Political decisions could either accelerate or retard that by quite a lot, but not less than 10 years even with an all-out go-for-broke push. So I'd say somewhere between 10 and 50 years. With 50 years NOT being the upper limit, and with 10 years being a very hard lower limit.

    OTOH, we could do commercial fusion reaction this year if we decided to. Thus:
    1) Dig a deep hole.
    2) Explode a fusion bomb inside the hole.
    3) Treat this as a source for heating water to live steam.
    4) Run a turbine.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  66. Bonus Payoff by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    If it works, Dick Cheney will instantly keel over.

    / something something Dark Side

  67. Re:Within a Year? Blasphemy! by srleffler · · Score: 1

    Not to start fusion, but to get fusion that sustains itself, so that more of the fuel in the pellet is consumed. They have been getting small amounts of fusion in these pellets for many years.

  68. O deer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    tHIS REALly sounds like the plot to Spiderman 2.

  69. Well done, but is it practicle power by physburn · · Score: 1
    Well to NIF, looks like there'll get there pellets to fuse, as orders. However that doesn't mean this will be a practicle power source. They have made no effort to construct something that can extract the power from the fusing deuterium tritium pellets, and ever if they did, the efficiency of the lasers is so obsurdly low, that I doubt this Laser fusion will ever be practicle. By contrast, ITER, keeps the fusion plasma at constant temperature, it has much more chance of extracting useful work out of the fusion process.

    ---

    Fusion Feed @ Feed Distiller

  70. You had your flying car more than 20 years ago... by Nick+Driver · · Score: 1

    ...actually it was 31 years ago, in 1979 to be exact.

    The flights were a little short, and the landings were kinda rough however.

  71. Re:Interstate Hwys: A Government Program that Work by couchslug · · Score: 1

    "Unfortunately, implicit in this goal was a massive surge in urban sprawl"

    Urban sprawl exists because many people don't like living in dense cities and enjoy more personal space than hive culture allows. Sprawl allowed people to escape obsolete cities (moving is more affordable than replacing deteriorated infrastructure) for a better life in the suburbs. Outrunning inevitable infrastructure deterioration and the people who go with that is key to maintaining a comfortable life.

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  72. "self-sustained" meaning positive net energy by Chirs · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The point of a "self-sustained" laser fusion device is that it produces more power from each fusion blast than is needed to power the lasers.

    The idea is that each fusion blast produces enough energy to fire the lasers for the next blast, plus some additional amount that can be used to do useful work.

    Sure, it takes a constant stream of pellets as input, but a fission reactor uses fuel rods the same wayl.

    1. Re:"self-sustained" meaning positive net energy by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      The idea is that each fusion blast produces enough energy to fire the lasers for the next blast, plus some additional amount that can be used to do useful work.

      Sure, it takes a constant stream of pellets as input, but a fission reactor uses fuel rods the same wayl.

      So does a coal plant, or a gas plant, or a gas turbine plant, or an internal combustion plant...

  73. Re:Interstate Hwys: A Government Program that Work by swillden · · Score: 1

    The building of the interstate system, a massive government project, succeeded in reaching its goal of allowing the utilization of vast swaths of under-utilized land, allowing commensurate increases in economic capacity.

    Of course, that wasn't the primary goal of the Dwight D. Eisenhower National System of Interstate and Defense Highways.

    --
    Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  74. replaceable by circletimessquare · · Score: 1
    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:replaceable by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Right. As if our agricultural system wasn't strained now - we'll just quadruple the amount it must output. (And somehow replace all the petrochemicals used to do so normally.)

  75. French Swallow? by gbutler69 · · Score: 1

    That sounds naughty!

    --
    Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
  76. Re:Interstate Hwys: A Government Program that Work by amplt1337 · · Score: 1

    Outrunning inevitable infrastructure deterioration and the people who go with that

    You mean the people who lack the economic means to escape decaying infrastructure. Just come out and say it, you can't be happy when you're living near the poor.

    As to the preference for more personal space, at this point it is very difficult to extricate what is natural preference versus what's culturally encouraged by our received views of the importance of space and countryside. We've put the pastoral on a pedestal for so long, in large part *due* to the sprawl phenomenon that depends on automobiles, that we can't say if that preference is innate or learned.

    --
    Freedom isn't free; its price is the well-being of others.