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Scientists Demonstrate Mammalian Tissue Regeneration

telomerewhythere writes "A quest that began over a decade ago with a chance observation has reached a milestone: the identification of a gene that may regulate regeneration in mammals. The absence of this single gene, called p21, confers a healing potential in mice long thought to have been lost through evolution and reserved for creatures like flatworms, sponges, and some species of salamander. 'Unlike typical mammals, which heal wounds by forming a scar, these mice begin by forming a blastema, a structure associated with rapid cell growth and de-differentiation as seen in amphibians. According to the Wistar researchers, the loss of p21 causes the cells of these mice to behave more like embryonic stem cells than adult mammalian cells, and their findings provide solid evidence to link tissue regeneration to the control of cell division. "Much like a newt that has lost a limb, these mice will replace missing or damaged tissue with healthy tissue that lacks any sign of scarring," said the project's lead scientist.' Here is the academic paper for those with PNAS access."

260 comments

  1. So by jimbobborg · · Score: 4, Funny

    We can all be Wolverine now? Cool!

    1. Re:So by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Minus the Claws. And the Adamantite interior. And the Rugged good looks - in your case, anyways.

    2. Re:So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      I have a feeling this causes cancer, eventually...

    3. Re:So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just being alive causes cancer, eventually ...

    4. Re:So by Exitar · · Score: 1

      Nope. Rat-Man.

    5. Re:So by TheMeuge · · Score: 5, Informative

      I have a feeling you should know something about the subject before weighing in.

      p21 knockout mice don't appear to get cancer more than wild-type mice, interestingly enough...

      It's interesting, because p53 is a major regulator of p21 expression, and p21 itself is a major player in regulating cell cycle progression into S-phase, thus controlling cell replication. p53 knockouts, on the other hand, are extremely prone to cancer, as p53 is one of the most important tumor-suppressor genes.

      The paper is interesting because the authors demonstrate that two separate strains of mice that contain a p21 deficiency can both regenerate differentiated tissue (measured by looking at ear-hole closure), supporting the link between p21/cell cycle progression and tissue regeneration. Whether this is of consequence therapeutically is a different story, but I'd be very interested to see the same study repeated in wild-type mice being fed or injected a small molecule p21 inhibitor.

    6. Re:So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just want to know if the bird on a mans penis has been regenerated yet?

    7. Re:So by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And the Rugged good looks - in your case, anyways.

      It takes a special kind of man to pull off that haircut.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    8. Re:So by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Funny

      And be wary that this rather serious matter may take a tumorous twist.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    9. Re:So by Jurily · · Score: 2, Funny

      And the Adamantite interior.

      You missed an expansion pack. He upgraded to Saronite when he reached 80.

    10. Re:So by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

      As long as p53 remains correctly active and functional, p21 inhibition has a potential to become a major cure treatment for a variety of ailments, from third degree burns to diabetes... up to any number of currently untreatable problems. Such a promising cure could possibly be upgraded, research pending, to a magic bullet vaccine status.

    11. Re:So by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      While in general I agree with your statement about not wading into something I don't know about, I'm going to do it anyway :P

      p21 was evolved out of mammals, if it's got this wondrous healing ability attached to it, it makes very little sense for it to have not had a *major* impact on the fitness of creatures without it unless it also gives some major benefit by having it present. I'm not going to claim it protects against cancer, instead merely make a vague statement along the lines of "we'd better watch out carefully when removing something evolution has decided should appear in fit creatures".

    12. Re:So by Scubaraf · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The cancer concern is a legitimate one. These p21 knockouts are lab mice kept in clean conditions. They may not develop cancers in a three year span, but that demonstrates little about the oncogenic potential in humans.

      I'm assuming there is some evolutionary reason for curtailing a vigorous healing response. It maybe to reduce the cancer rate, but it could just as simply be something else very important - regulation of immune response for example.

      One potentially useful experiment would be to challenge these mice with carcinogen (like ENU) and see what their cancer rate is compared to controls. Alternatively, you could use genetic means (insertion of oncogenes or mating to mice with knocked out tumor suppressor genes) to see if the cancers they develop are more aggressive or more likely to metastasize. In any case, this is a very cool finding.

    13. Re:So by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

      Well he had to, it's well known that excesses of Adamandtite in the system can lead to urges to smash windows.

      --
      Nullius in verba
    14. Re:So by icannotthinkofaname · · Score: 1

      Actually, my first thought was that if I can regenerate, then all I'm missing is a TARDIS.

      brb, off to find some TARDIS coral so I can grow my own TARDIS.

      --
      Let q be a radix > 1. I am in ur base-q, killing 10 d00ds.
    15. Re:So by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      We can all be Wolverine now? Cool!

      More like Deadpool.

      However, his healing factor results in massive scar tissue causing his appearance to be severely disfigured. An unanticipated side effect of the therapy was a rapid acceleration of cancerous tumors as well, causing them to quickly spread across his entire body as soon as his powers fully activated.

      Except without the funny one liners, awesome assasin skills, teleporter, or probably the rivalry with wolverine. I suppose you could wear the costume though and get in a fight with a real wolverine.

    16. Re:So by jlebrech · · Score: 1

      or if you cannot switch it off; Benjamin Button!

    17. Re:So by tmosley · · Score: 1

      So you're saying he'd turn into Deadpool?

    18. Re:So by jimbobborg · · Score: 2, Informative

      However, his healing factor results in massive scar tissue causing his appearance to be severely disfigured.

      No scarring with this stuff.

    19. Re:So by pablo_max · · Score: 1

      yeah...what he said.

    20. Re:So by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Right, I should have been more clear. What I meant was that there will likely be bad side effects. Shoulda chosen a better example though.

    21. Re:So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I will be the Lizard!

    22. Re:So by AndrewBC · · Score: 1

      Well, it's not like evolution makes the most badass things ever, you just have to be good enough to survive long enough to further your species through whatever means you have, and you've won.

    23. Re:So by Syberz · · Score: 2, Funny

      I have a feeling you should know something about the subject before weighing in.

      You sir are hanging out on the wrong internets.

      --
      ~Syberz
    24. Re:So by misfit815 · · Score: 1

      Forget Wolverine. this has Dr. Curt Connors / Lizard written all over it.

      --
      Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. - John 14:6 NLT
    25. Re:So by RsG · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You are correct. In point of fact, around 90% of the time when you hear that "X gives you cancer" what you should instead read it as is "X causes cancer to happen sooner". Usually this means that exposure to risk factor X reduces your ability to fight off cancer. You've probably got a few carcinogenic cells in you right now that are going to be killed off before they do you any harm. Obviously this doesn't apply in every single case - ionizing radiation falls into that other 10% that really does cause cancer directly - but when you see cancer linked to, say, stress, that falls under the other 90%.

      I don't think that tissue regeneration will cause cancer to happen more frequently, for two reasons. The first is that the healing process in humans already accelerates cancer. As do certain immune responses. Essentially, every bit of damage you pick up over your lifetime accelerates the inevitable rise of carcinogenesis by some tiny amount. Regeneration, done correctly, probably won't worsen this.

      The second reason is that the reason mammals don't regenerate naturally has to do with speed, not safety. The healing process in mammals essentially slaps a quick patch over the damage in order to get you healthy sooner; we call this patch a scar. Regenerating vertebrates (amphibians, some reptiles) take longer to heal, but heal more completely, which is substantially more viable when you're cold blooded and can go a few days without more food. At some point in our distant evolutionary past, scarring became a more viable approach to damage, as it fixed us up sooner, so selection pressure favored the scarring over the regenerating. Lack of regeneration in humans is a matter of what worked in the wild for our ancestors, not what works today, where the injured have plenty of time to recuperate, and don't run the risk of starvation or predation.

      --
      Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
    26. Re:So by pseudorand · · Score: 1

      I was thinking more like Zaphod Beeblebrox.

    27. Re:So by Propaganda13 · · Score: 1

      Minus the Claws. And the Adamantite interior. And the Rugged good looks - in your case, anyways.

      There's always plastic surgery for the looks. Now without any scars.

    28. Re:So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      where the injured have plenty of time to recuperate, and don't run the risk of starvation or predation.

      That all depends.

      Note to self: look for another job soon.

    29. Re:So by natehoy · · Score: 3, Funny

      I heard you were looking for some, so I went back in time and destroyed them all on this planet.

      Lovingly yours,
        - The Master

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    30. Re:So by icannotthinkofaname · · Score: 1

      I don't think you should have told me that. Now that I know you travelled back in time, I now know right where to find some TARDIS coral. Once I have my TARDIS, I will travel slightly further back in time, and hide a piece of TARDIS coral in some place such that only I will know where it is. Please think about this very carefully, if you're confused. It's not a paradox; it's just happening slightly out-of-order from my point of view.

      brb, off to super-secret hiding place to find some TARDIS coral. Thanks for your help! :-D

      --
      Let q be a radix > 1. I am in ur base-q, killing 10 d00ds.
    31. Re:So by Luyseyal · · Score: 2, Funny

      There's an analogy with software development in there somewhere, if I could just flesh it out.

      Oh, I've got it. Managers will choose the quick patch over the proper fix every time due to competitive pressure.

      Where are my free internets?
      -l

      --
      Help cure AIDS, cancer, and more. Donate your unused computer time to worldcommunitygrid.org. Join Team Slashdot!
    32. Re:So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Not only that, but consider the anti-aging possibilities:

      1. Get old
      2. Sequentially, & repeat:
            a. Amputate old body segments
            b. Scream like a motherfucker
            c. Regenerate yer parts with that "factory fresh" smell
      3. ???
      4. Profit!

      Don't worry about your brain, you can do one hemisphere at a time. And remember, corporate ownership of popular culture means all your important memories are already stored in the cloud!

    33. Re:So by Stephen+Tennant · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm sure many a Slashdot reader will receive an upgrade in the looks department when they are able to heal acne scars. Now excuse me while I prepare for troll modding from butthurt pizzaface.

      --
      I spend most of my time in bed, darling.
    34. Re:So by Red+Flayer · · Score: 0

      I'm not going to claim it protects against cancer, instead merely make a vague statement along the lines of "we'd better watch out carefully when removing something evolution has decided should appear in fit creatures".

      We already know what the answer is -- why this gene was selected for. Did you notice that the regeneration resulted in no scar formation? The answer to the reproductive advantage should be coming clear to you any second, it's obvious really.

      Chicks dig scars.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    35. Re:So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A barber?

    36. Re:So by fractoid · · Score: 1

      A professional waxer?

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    37. Re:So by fractoid · · Score: 1

      Better that than a pizzahurt buttface.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    38. Re:So by fractoid · · Score: 1

      Just being alive causes cancer, eventually ...

      Especially in rodents. I had a pet rat, it got cancer. My sister had a pet rat, it got cancer too. She got three more pet rats. They got cancer. Bloody depressing, really.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    39. Re:So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sir, win 10 internets.

    40. Re:So by BOwara · · Score: 1

      I think you are right in the theory of why the selection occurred. The article stated that with the regeneration gene switched on, that apoptosis was also switch on, so any carcinogenic cells with their damaged DNA would self-destruct rather than replicate.

  2. Now I can finally start my restaurant... by Culture20 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now I can finally start my restaurant (which specializes in mouse-tail delicacies) without PETA breathing down my neck. "Look: it's growing back!" Mouse-tail soup anyone?

    1. Re:Now I can finally start my restaurant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Hell yes! We can also get sustainably harvested bacon!

    2. Re:Now I can finally start my restaurant... by Bakkster · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Waiter, there's a blastema in my soup."

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    3. Re:Now I can finally start my restaurant... by Hatta · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of course PETA believes any sort of servitude by animals is the same as slavery. They'll never be happy. After all, if they ever got everything they wanted they'd have to find something useful to do with their lives.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:Now I can finally start my restaurant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And they are willing to get naked to prove their point.

      Or as my S.O. puts it 'im not being whory I am making a political statement.'

    5. Re:Now I can finally start my restaurant... by thijsh · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Something useful... like ending actual ongoing *human* slavery? Nah... PETA finds it more worthwhile to kill (uhhh 'rescue') some more animals: http://www.petakillsanimals.com/.

    6. Re:Now I can finally start my restaurant... by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The worst part of it is, science believes that cats 'self domesticated'. If anything, denying humans the right to keep cats as pets is animal abuse, since it is denying them an adaptation they developed themselves.

      Who ever said these people used logic though?

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    7. Re:Now I can finally start my restaurant... by nomoreunusednickname · · Score: 1

      Add to your menu: frog legs, ox tail soup, chicken wings, various ears and tongues... all sustainably grown *drool*

    8. Re:Now I can finally start my restaurant... by Hatta · · Score: 5, Funny

      I think instead that it was cats who domesticated humans.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    9. Re:Now I can finally start my restaurant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Silly Slashdotter! Didn't you know? Everyone else knows! I repeat the common knowledge here.

      DOGS HAVE OWNERS, CATS HAVE STAFF! ...all righty then...

    10. Re:Now I can finally start my restaurant... by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      Well, doesn't PETA mean People Eating Tasty Animals?

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    11. Re:Now I can finally start my restaurant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love animals...they taste great!

    12. Re:Now I can finally start my restaurant... by HornWumpus · · Score: 4, Funny

      The cat the lives in my house has owners.

      My dogs.

      I feed the 'orange devil' though.

      The girl Lab thinks the little fucker is her baby. So does the cat. Lets her lick him clean like a new mama dog.

      The cat and the German shepherd play a game with the other neighborhood cats. The cat picks a fight then 'runs like a Frenchman' back to my yard where the dog pounces on the neighbor cat. Repeat.

      Might be a problem if he didn't knows cats are way more fun to chase then they are to catch.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    13. Re:Now I can finally start my restaurant... by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      The problem is groups like PETA group together way to many ideals and try to get them all enforced. If they just focused on an area they could probably get better progress done.

      Lets just say Fur Coats... You could probably lot of people to support you on that.
      Then you say to join our group you can't eat meat then you will loose members. Then you say you can't eat milk and eggs... You loose more. Then you say you can't have pets you loose even more...

      So what you end up with is a small group of people who are very like minded... The good it makes them easy to manage but in general rather ineffective overall.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    14. Re:Now I can finally start my restaurant... by Valdrax · · Score: 1

      Now I can finally start my restaurant (which specializes in mouse-tail delicacies) without PETA breathing down my neck. "Look: it's growing back!" Mouse-tail soup anyone?

      Not really. If vegans oppose milking cows and harvesting honey, then cutting pieces off living animals, waiting for them to regrow, and then cutting more off again is just *may* be a bit less acceptable.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
    15. Re:Now I can finally start my restaurant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should have more sympathy for cats. Think of them as 'land kittens'.

  3. I for one... by trurl7 · · Score: 1

    ...welcome our new, non-scarring, regenerating....

    too easy, forget it.

    1. Re:I for one... by ircmaxell · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, they claim that they thought it was "lost to evolution"... I assume the fact that the gene is not active today is the result of evolution. So that implies the question Why is it inactive? I would think the ability to regenerate body parts on demand would be an evolutionary advantage, wouldn't it? So something must not work correctly (or there must be some kind of side effect)... It could be as simple as we didn't have enough nutrition at the time to be able to support it, and would die of malnourishment when we'd otherwise live with the injury... But I do agree, it does seem "too easy". They must be a negative here that we haven't figured out... I guess it's time to welcome our new self-healing mouse overlords...

      --
      If a man isn't willing to take some risk for his opinions, either his opinions are no good or he's no good
    2. Re:I for one... by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Macro vs Micro. Regenerating body parts is great. Pretty much freezing genetic diversity with a bunch of near immortal beings? Not so much.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    3. Re:I for one... by TroyM · · Score: 1

      The risk of cancer seems the most likely explanation. Anything that promotes new cell growth also brings the risk of cancer if the cell growth goes out of control. Maybe since mammals tend to live longer than amphibians, cancer is a bigger threat than losing a limb?

    4. Re:I for one... by nblender · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not all mutations are good. Some mutations are bad. Sometimes multiple mutations occur at the same time... Maybe another highly beneficial mutation occurred at the same time as this one was lost... Imagine losing a limb... Not as easy to run away from predators while your limb is growing back... May not have been advantageous enough..

    5. Re:I for one... by kalahann · · Score: 1

      ... But I do agree, it does seem "too easy". They must be a negative here that we haven't figured out... I guess it's time to welcome our new self-healing mouse overlords...

      yup, that's because when they die they become zombies and start eating their siblings !

    6. Re:I for one... by Dr.+Evil · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "I would think the ability to regenerate body parts on demand would be an evolutionary advantage"

      What advantage could regeneration provide when survival rates for amputation were abysmal before modern medicine?

      Maybe changes in bacteria made regeneration pointless in larger lifeforms (which take longer to heal)?

      It's speculation, but I guess the only way we can know if it can be done is to experiment.

    7. Re:I for one... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      In this study there was no change in cancer rates.

      Evolution is 'good enough'. Meaning it isn't perfect, and if you can still produce, then it's successful. It could just be off by chance. If I were to make a wikld guess, I would say that this way takes more energy then are current way of healing. So it 'fell' out of use and there hasn't been in random mutation that turned it on and provided a substantial advantage over out current environment.

      I would also guess this gene has been turned off for a very long time. Possible from before Homo Sapiens.

      Now, get this is drug form an gimme. I wan to regenerate internal organs to there optimal state. No more scarring of the heart. Man, this could be great.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    8. Re:I for one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It could be an energy issue. Organisms running around regenerating all of the time would use a lot of biological energy. That means a lot of food intake. If you live on subsistence levels of food, your might not have the energy to keep regenerating. So may be your body slowly over times loses the ability to regenerate because you basically don't do it anyway.

    9. Re:I for one... by david.given · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I would think the ability to regenerate body parts on demand would be an evolutionary advantage, wouldn't it?

      Not necessarily. A lot of small animals are pretty much disposable: they're sufficiently fragile that there's only a very narrow boundary between a trivial injury and a fatal one. (And anyone who's kept small birds and animals will know that if they're hurt beyond a certain point they'll simply go into shock and die.)

      So it's entirely plausible that the gene might have been caused by a spot mutation very early on while all mammals were basically mice, and it then had a sufficiently small effect on actual survivability that the trait didn't get bred out. Later, once the small, disposable animals turned into large, expensive ones, it was too late.

      It is interesting that both birds and animals appear to lack this trait, though. We both descend from much the same sort of lizards but in different directions. Finding out exactly where this gene sequence appeared might be productive.

      (Of course, I want to know when we'll be able to get gene therapy to suppress the gene. Assuming it works in humans, and that the gene doesn't do anything else critical, it might even be fairly straightforward! But probably won't happen soon and I'm certainly not volunteering to be the guinea pig...)

    10. Re:I for one... by Spatial · · Score: 1

      Evolution doesn't converge toward perfection, or even improvement.

      Why is it inactive? Its inactivity didn't kill our ancestor, and they done fucked a bitch. Here we are.

    11. Re:I for one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      p21 (CIP1) is a tumor suppressor protein that stops cells from dividing after DNA damage. So, yeah...

      A more meta point - there are two healing mouse strains discussed, the p21 mutant and the MRL mouse. Since sequencing one gene is relatively cheap and easy (as opposed to whole genome fishing expeditions), it's safe to assume the MRL mouse doesn't have a p21 mutation, so there may still be hope on that score.

    12. Re:I for one... by PaulMeigh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      When you are driving in your car and run over a nail, it's often cheaper to just patch the tire rather than to replace it. You're generally back on the road faster as well.

    13. Re:I for one... by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      There only has to be a negative if you assume evolution is guided. If things just continue to work from the survival point of view, it doesn't matter one whit to evolution if there was an advantage lost.

    14. Re:I for one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In case of large animals it may take very long to replace the lost body part. Maybe adaptation is simply faster, and more energy efficient. Same probably for grievous wounds. Or maybe it's just not worth it at all, and the time it took to replace or get over such injury resulted in death of both. But the suppressed gene code was easier to write? Damn lazy programmers...

    15. Re:I for one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a fight, you know whats better than walking away the winner with a bloody stump? Walking away without a scratch.

      Evolution could just as easily leaned towards those who were faster, smarter, or would simply breed fast enough that they would avoid getting any major injuries that would require regeneration before passing on their genes.

    16. Re:I for one... by zwei2stein · · Score: 1

      Even worse, every little injury could be trigger for regeneration-cancer.

      --
      -- Technology for the sake of technology is as pathetic as eschewing technology because it's technology.
    17. Re:I for one... by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      In case of large animals it may take very long to replace the lost body part. Maybe adaptation is simply faster, and more energy efficient. Same probably for grievous wounds. Or maybe it's just not worth it at all, and the time it took to replace or get over such injury resulted in death of both. But the suppressed gene code was easier to write? Damn lazy programmers...

      Lose a limb, and you can still survive. Starve to death because you were putting a LOT of energy into making a new limb...

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    18. Re:I for one... by tmosley · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ummm, the ability to regenerate lost body parts doesn't make you immortal. It just makes it less likely that the loss of an arm or a leg will end your life.

    19. Re:I for one... by tmosley · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And it is easy to run away without a limb at all?

      If simply switching off the one gene is enough to allow regeneration, then it WOULD happen with an incidence similar to other single base pair change genetic defects. Something else is going on here. It could be that larger animals with the gene turned off die in the womb or something.

    20. Re:I for one... by pablo_max · · Score: 1

      I think you are thinking too much like an engineer. Remember..evolution is not like SW or HW revs. We don't just disable certain features because they have bad effects.
      I think it's important to remember that evolution does not always mean something got better. It just changed..that's all.
      Hell..it could be that some critter needed more energy to make himself a new arm that to just seal it off and keep going. Lucky for us..we don't need to think about that anymore.

    21. Re:I for one... by joke_dst · · Score: 1

      So it's entirely plausible that the gene might have been caused by a spot mutation very early on while all mammals were basically mice, and it then had a sufficiently small effect on actual survivability that the trait didn't get bred out.

      Not really. Unless there was an actual advantage to having the gene there will really not be a "sufficiently small effect" as long as it's greater than zero.

      And there IS an advantage of having this gene: Scaring.

      Scaring is faster and fixes you up good enough for most part. Regenerating takes so long you might very well die from the damage before it's finished.

    22. Re:I for one... by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, they claim that they thought it was "lost to evolution"... I assume the fact that the gene is not active today is the result of evolution. So that implies the question Why is it inactive? I would think the ability to regenerate body parts on demand would be an evolutionary advantage, wouldn't it?.

      Supposedly around 8% of human DNA was inserted by viruses into our genome. It could be that a virus in the past messed up our ancestor badly enough to lose regeneration and killed of all the rest. Also evolution doesn't have a "goal" our non-regenerative ancestor was just lucky that through some trait it was the best adapted to the environment at the time and it survived. It doesn't mean regeneration had a negative side to it.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    23. Re:I for one... by ircmaxell · · Score: 1

      True, but evolution tends to favor traits that make an organism's survival stronger. When an organism/group of organisms develops a mutation, one of three things happens. Either that mutation dominates (it's a "good" trait) and tends to overtake the population (because those without it are weaker, die sooner and therefor reproduce less), the mutation causes the organism to die sooner, and hence tends to not overtake the population (because those with it are weaker...) or the mutation causes no discernible change (In which case it's a coin flip if it will overtake the population since there's no affect on breeding rates, so it may die out or overtake the entire population)... An individual step in evolution doesn't mean better it means change. But the process of evolution as a whole (from a statistical standpoint) tends to favor better (hence why animals can adapt to their surroundings, etc)...

      --
      If a man isn't willing to take some risk for his opinions, either his opinions are no good or he's no good
    24. Re:I for one... by izomiac · · Score: 1

      Most times a mammal loses a limb, it's fatal. For the other times, a rapid recovery (scarring) is probably preferable to a slower one (regeneration) for a few reasons.

      Off the top of my head, I can't think of any social creature that regenerates. It's likely that regeneration's high energy demands would have a high price for a group. If they aren't closely related then it's better to exile that individual (so they die). If they are closely related then the risk of the whole group dieing probably outweighs the benefit.

      Mammals have high energy needs relative to amphibians and reptiles even without regeneration. It's entirely possible that no mammal could eat enough to fuel the regeneration, especially while injured. So, rather than evolve slow regeneration (likely an "ideal" solution), it was "easier" to just turn it off entirely.

      Mammals tend to be more intelligent (as a group). Perhaps scars have the benefit of reminding an animal (and any that it encounters) about their trauma, and teaches them to avoid it in the future. Losing a limb is the extreme, and regeneration probably has a greater effect on natural selection with just repairing minor injuries, where there might not be a significant advantage with full regeneration.

    25. Re:I for one... by Krau+Ming · · Score: 0

      if a p21-null human lost an arm, the one that grows back might not be too pretty.

    26. Re:I for one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Evolution doesn't care for, nor has it ever cared for the survival of species on a macro scale.
      It can't care.

      Ageing doesn't need to stop for their to be evolution, either.
      Retroviruses get on fine modifying DNA all the time, some go well, some usually result in cancers and tumors.
      It is one hell of a complicated process, but a species could thrive solely on exchanging viruses between each other.
      Offspring could still happen, evolution doesn't care for the survival of other species.
      It would be up to the species to conserve life for their own sake. (whereas species groups usually end up killing off most of the food supply around them and die)

      It would be the ultimate goal of life, the recombining of the old and the new, RNA-world and DNA-world.
      And so it shall be, Rand-World!

    27. Re:I for one... by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 1

      You missed the qualifying word before immortal. Try again.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    28. Re:I for one... by fikx · · Score: 1

      There doesn't have to be a negative....all that is means (being inactive due to evolution) is that some ancestor which had it deactivated for some reason, like mutation, survived. basically, having it deactivated didn't result in the organism not surviving...or that some other trait had a bigger impact on survival than the dis-advantage of regeneration being disabled.

      --
      AB HOC POSSUM VIDERE DOMUM TUUM
    29. Re:I for one... by tmosley · · Score: 1

      You missed the point. Having these types of cells does not make your life longer. They merely allow you to regenerate lost tissue.

      This is a million miles away from immortal.

      To use a car analogy, it's like having a car with tires that repair themselves when they go flat. Self-repairing tires don't extend the life of the engine, it just means you don't have to get out and change the tire in the middle of the road when you hit a nail.

    30. Re:I for one... by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      "And it is easy to run away without a limb at all?"

      He's arguing that the practical utility of regeneration is low because it leaves you more likely to be eaten by a grue for a long period of time anyway, so if it came at the same time as one that made you a marginally faster runner (with all of your legs), then maybe running would win.

      It doesn't have to be literally the same time, but with small populations in the early stages one of the few of the line of non-regenerators could mate with one of the few of the line of slightly-faster-runners, and then the faster running regenerators all die as they try to run away one leggedly.

      There's a tonne of possibilities. They mostly hinge on a small isolated population, but then, that's also how speciation happens and it's obviously happened a tonne since the mammalian divergence.

    31. Re:I for one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not just small animals. How long does a horse live after breaking its leg?

    32. Re:I for one... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I think it's more like scarring is useful because it closes a wound quickly, preventing infection. Regeneration takes longer, and is more likely to allow infection to set in.

      These days, we'd probably prefer to regenerate our injuries, because we've invented Band-Aids, sterile gauze, and other useful things to keep wounds clean and free from contaminants while they heal, but ages ago, this wasn't the case.

    33. Re:I for one... by radtea · · Score: 1, Redundant

      It could be as simple as we didn't have enough nutrition at the time to be able to support it, and would die of malnourishment when we'd otherwise live with the injury...

      In nature, cold-blooded beings regenerate, warm-blooded being scar is a pretty good first-order rule.

      Warm-blooded beings have energy demands that are far higher than cold-blooded, making the suggestion that we'd starve if we waited for regeneration quite plausible. Scaring is all about fast, adequate healing, so we can go out there and eat more to keep our body temperature up. A cold blooded creature can find somewhere safe to hole up for a week or three while regeneration gets underway.

      Evolution is all about trade-offs, and it appears that living with scar tissue and missing limbs (which happen pretty rarely in nature anyway) was better for our ancestors than regenerating.

      Nothing lives forever anyway, for obvious and well-known reasons, so we're always dealing with situations where you have to ask what will give an individual the greatest reproductive advantage over the span of remaining years that accidents and co-evolving parasites allow them.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    34. Re:I for one... by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

      Check this post above you: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1586036&cid=31510392

      Essentially: Scar tissue gets you back on your feet faster. Warm-blooded animals need to eat all the time. Sitting helpless while regenerating tissue takes too long, even though it's better for the long-.

      But then again, what long run? You could have plenty of scar tissue and still mate successfully. If you're not built to last, who cares, you passed on your genes and that's what matters.

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
    35. Re:I for one... by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      So it's entirely plausible that the gene might have been caused by a spot mutation very early on while all mammals were basically mice, and it then had a sufficiently small effect on actual survivability that the trait didn't get bred out. Later, once the small, disposable animals turned into large, expensive ones, it was too late.

      Sure but if it's really as simple as one gene disabling another, if regeneration was advantageous in large mammals then it seems probably that a mutation re-activating the regeneration gene would have arose and thrived. Which suggests that it was not advantageous. Not a guarantee, it might just have not happened or happened in organisms who died for reasons regeneration couldn't fix. But it is suggestive...

      Frankly I think some other posters are on the right track when they say it has to do with speed of healing. Scaring is faster than regeneration. Regeneration could have increased the risk of infection, or it could have simply increased the amount of time that an injury hindered the ability to escape predators or find food. In the extreme case of losing a limb, regrowing it sounds nice but in the wild an animal probably wouldn't live long enough for it to happen.

      But probably won't happen soon and I'm certainly not volunteering to be the guinea pig...

      Whoa wait! They have to turn you into an actual rodent to be able to regenerate? Okay fuck that.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    36. Re:I for one... by dvice_null · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or perhaps most common injury is just a small scratch, not losing your limb. Even the result looks nasty, faster healing offers one very important benefit. Open wounds tend to infect and that can cause serious illness or even death without modern medicine. It is not hard to imagine that healing your wounds a day or two faster would decrease the chance of getting sick a big time.

    37. Re:I for one... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Until the vet shoots it.

      Horse-racing, more cruel than just eating the damn things would be.

    38. Re:I for one... by pclminion · · Score: 1

      So that implies the question Why is it inactive? I would think the ability to regenerate body parts on demand would be an evolutionary advantage, wouldn't it?

      Lots of things would be an evolutionary advantage. If my forearms contained modified follicles which grew tooth-like protrusions and I could fire these at great speed at an incoming predator like Spiderman, that would seem to be an evolutionary advantage. But I don't see anyone asking why we don't have such an adaptation.

    39. Re:I for one... by orkysoft · · Score: 1

      No, it makes it more likely that the loss of an arm or a leg will end your life. Being able to scar quickly might very well prevent you from bleeding to death.

      --

      I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
    40. Re:I for one... by Colin+Douglas+Howell · · Score: 1

      It is interesting that both birds and animals appear to lack this trait, though. We both descend from much the same sort of lizards but in different directions. Finding out exactly where this gene sequence appeared might be productive.

      Well, birds and mammals are both descended from ancient reptiles, but the split happened a long way back. While the primitive reptiles which gave rise to both branches might be called "lizards" by ordinary people, who naturally refer to most generic four-legged reptiles as "lizards", there's actually a big gulf between these animals and real lizards, which are closer to the birds' branch of the family tree.

      The most obvious split between the two branches of the family tree was in the skull structure, specifically the number of openings in the skull for muscle attachment. The mammals' branch of the tree are known as "synapsids"; their ancestors had a single pair of these openings. Among the synapsids were the entire huge tribe of "mammal-like reptiles" (therapsids), as well as the mammals themselves, who are the last survivors of the group. Dimetrodon is probably the most familiar prehistoric non-mammalian synapsid.

      The birds come from the other big branch of the tree, the "diapsids", which descended from reptiles with two pairs of skull muscle openings. This group was much more successful overall than the synapsids. Among the diapsids are the lizards and snakes and the "archosaurs", which produced the crocodilians, pterosaurs, dinosaurs, and birds (via dinosaurs).

    41. Re:I for one... by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Scarring and clotting are different. Amphibians clot up just fine, and proceed to regrow the lost limb. A layer of new tissue will prevent bleeding just as well as scar tissue.

  4. So this is what hell will be... by mtrachtenberg · · Score: 0, Troll

    So this is what the religions were talking about when they talked about hell. Everyone lives forever, one hundred people have all the money, and Sarah Palin is President-for-Life.

  5. Degeneration by tedgyz · · Score: 2, Funny

    You know this discussion will degenerate into how this can be applied to growing a longer penis.

    --
    "No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Banzai
    1. Re:Degeneration by protodevilin · · Score: 3, Funny

      Then I hope it doesn't involve having to amputate the penis first.

    2. Re:Degeneration by JavaBear · · Score: 1

      You know this discussion will degenerate into how this can be applied to growing a longer penis.

      No, but spammers are sure to find a way to try and sell that point

    3. Re:Degeneration by hanabal · · Score: 1

      if it did thought, would you. I mean if you could grow any penis size you wanted but you had to cut your original one off to get it, would you. Bonus points if you weren't allowed anaesthesia as that affects the regrowth.

    4. Re:Degeneration by geekoid · · Score: 1

      If by 'larger' you mean 'second', then yes.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    5. Re:Degeneration by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      *Jamaican^W WoW troll voice*

      They say that when you cut off an extremity it regenerates a little bigger.

      Don't believe it.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    6. Re:Degeneration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interestingly enough, this might actually allow the old fashioned penis pump to actually be effective at more than just destroying an otherwise healthy penis.

      Since these knockout mice no longer produce scar tissue as a result of tissue damage, but instead produce new healthy tissue, causing microtrauma to the penis (by forcibly engorging it) would stimulate this regeneration process, rather than the creation of useless scar tissue (how penis pumps destroy the penis).

      Somebody should suggest it as an experiment to perform on these knockout mice.

      That being said, it's not that I would want to try this on myself, nor on anyone else... but it is feasible that some freakshow could end up with a 24 inch long, and 4 inch thick penis. (of course, no woman would have anything to do with him after that.. there IS such a thing as too big.)

      BONUS! Captcha=="Circus"

    7. Re:Degeneration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, it would start out small, and take about 20 years to grow to full size. Are you willing to wait?

    8. Re:Degeneration by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      If by 'larger' you mean 'second', then yes.

      AKA the shocker (now hands-free).
      No thanks, I have enough trouble keeping the blood flow going to my brain as it is.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    9. Re:Degeneration by AndrewBC · · Score: 1

      Somebody should suggest it as an experiment to perform on these knockout mice.

      "Last one to the bar has to pump the all of the mice penises!"

    10. Re:Degeneration by joocemann · · Score: 1

      You know this discussion will degenerate into how this can be applied to growing a longer penis.

      Ironically, you were the first...

    11. Re:Degeneration by tedgyz · · Score: 1

      Yeah - I knew it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. :-)

      --
      "No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Banzai
    12. Re:Degeneration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I don't see why it should. Just have the doctor cause a new one to grow there next to the one you already have. Then, when the new one is in place, have tubing moved over, and the old one removed. Or just keep both, whatever strikes your fancy.

      Damn I can't believe I just spent that much time thinking that through... I'm glad I thought to post as AC.

    13. Re:Degeneration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Uh, if this actually DID allow penis modification, the researchers should lead with such knowledge. They'd have all the funding they'd ever need from self-conscious males looking to score an extra inch or five (or perhaps, on a slightly less vain note, to reverse a likely non-consensual circumcision). I'm not trying to be funny; people routinely pony up big time for sex-related investments -- setting aside investments directly involved in the procurement of and enhancement of sex, there's cosmetic surgery, clothes, cars...

      I propose that if some scientists would make an effort to double the length of (or regrow) a mouse's schlong instead of fiddling with its tail, they'd be sure to get extra public attention, and the increased funding that would follow would ultimately be beneficial in other, more relevant areas.

  6. very probably this will cause cancer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because cancer happens when cells start to divide much faster

  7. It will be interesting to see... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What the side effects are. One would(perhaps naively) assume that regeneration is an obvious survival advantage, and that losing regenerative capabilities would be a handicap. That being so, one would tend to suspect that an anti-regeneration gene would be fairly strongly selected against. Since this gene is, in fact, rampant in mammals, one is led to the suspicion that there must be some sort of upside.

    Is it something more or less irrelevant to modern humans(at least those wealthy enough to ever be genetically engineered), something like "without any sort of medical care, most serious injuries were fatal before regeneration could occur, so the extra energy costs weren't worth it", or is it some kicker of the "Well, without a whole bunch of other adaptations possessed by certain amphibians and creepy-crawlies, you'll 'regenerate' yourself entirely full of tumors by age 20." flavor?

    1. Re:It will be interesting to see... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Think of it this way: MOST of the time, your body tries mightily to STOP things from growing - those are typically cancers (uncontrolled cell division). It may have been easier in the evolutionary sense to shut down regeneration than to deal with it's consequences.

      Remember, you are not a newt.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:It will be interesting to see... by Zeros · · Score: 1

      The problem is you can only regenerate 12 times.

    3. Re:It will be interesting to see... by bcmm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Scarring is much faster, and probably carries a lower risk of infection for creatures that don't have access to medical care.

      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i llama
      Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
    4. Re:It will be interesting to see... by AioKits · · Score: 4, Funny

      Remember, you are not a newt.

      I got better...

      --
      "Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted." -Groucho Marx
    5. Re:It will be interesting to see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember, you are not a newt.

      Well, I was. But I got better...

    6. Re:It will be interesting to see... by pesho · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I second this. p21 is what you call a 'tumor suppressor' gene. Without p21 it is significantly easier to get cancer. It would matter less to mice, because of their short lifespan and different DNA damage repair strategy (fix aggressively active genes, don't care much about the rest). For humans with life span ten times longer compared to mice, this is real deal breaker. These mice also appear to have some sort of autoimmune disease.

    7. Re:It will be interesting to see... by bazorg · · Score: 1

      well, I AM a a newt, you insensitive clod!

    8. Re:It will be interesting to see... by Spatial · · Score: 1

      One would(perhaps naively) assume that regeneration is an obvious survival advantage, and that losing regenerative capabilities would be a handicap. That being so, one would tend to suspect that an anti-regeneration gene would be fairly strongly selected against. Since this gene is, in fact, rampant in mammals, one is led to the suspicion that there must be some sort of upside.

      We can't synthesise vitamin C either, but there's no benefit to that. Almost all other animals can synthesise it, but we get scurvy and die unless we ingest it.

      If it doesn't kill you before you can reproduce, and it doesn't make you infertile, it can be passed on. We lack that ability because one of our ancestors lacked it, but survived and reproduced regardless.

      Because of that low standard for selection, it's relatively easy for a trait to be irrelevant to the selection process, good or bad.

    9. Re:It will be interesting to see... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Remember, you are not a newt.

      I got better...

      And it only took a couple hundred million years, doctor Nature!

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    10. Re:It will be interesting to see... by Tom+Boz · · Score: 1

      I think it's more the extra energy costs that led to using scarring rather than regeneration. It's my understanding (having taken 1 biomaterials class) that scarring is also a relatively useful response in most situations; that is, it usually is a sub-par solution to the problem, but since it works the same everywhere on the body, that's an advantage. It can also happen far more quickly than regeneration, I would assume. Either way, this will be an interesting development to follow - who knows what side effects we'll find?!

    11. Re:It will be interesting to see... by Scrameustache · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What the side effects are. One would(perhaps naively) assume that regeneration is an obvious survival advantage, and that losing regenerative capabilities would be a handicap. That being so, one would tend to suspect that an anti-regeneration gene would be fairly strongly selected against. Since this gene is, in fact, rampant in mammals, one is led to the suspicion that there must be some sort of upside.
      Is it something more or less irrelevant to modern humans(at least those wealthy enough to ever be genetically engineered), something like "without any sort of medical care, most serious injuries were fatal before regeneration could occur, so the extra energy costs weren't worth it", or is it some kicker of the "Well, without a whole bunch of other adaptations possessed by certain amphibians and creepy-crawlies, you'll 'regenerate' yourself entirely full of tumors by age 20." flavor?

      Well, FTFA: "In normal cells, p21 acts like a brake to block cell cycle progression in the event of DNA damage, preventing the cells from dividing and potentially becoming cancerous," Heber-Katz said. "In these mice without p21, we do see the expected increase in DNA damage, but surprisingly no increase in cancer has been reported."
      In fact, the researchers saw an increase in apoptosis in MRL mice -- also known as programmed cell death -- the cell's self-destruct mechanism that is often switched on when DNA has been damaged. According to Heber-Katz, this is exactly the sort of behavior seen in naturally regenerative creatures.

      Maybe this gene was like the scaffolding you build before building an arch, and now that we have evolved the rest of the cancer-fighting-arch, we can remove the p21 scaffolding.
      Or maybe this will end up like thalidomide. I say we proceed with cautious optimism.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    12. Re:It will be interesting to see... by Cormacus · · Score: 1

      Think of it this way: MOST of the time, your body tries mightily to STOP things from growing - those are typically cancers (uncontrolled cell division). It may have been easier in the evolutionary sense to shut down regeneration than to deal with it's consequences.

      Agreed, but this line from the article is very iteresting:

      Heber-Katz said. "In these mice without p21, we do see the expected increase in DNA damage, but surprisingly no increase in cancer has been reported." In fact, the researchers saw an increase in apoptosis in MRL mice -- also known as programmed cell death -- the cell's self-destruct mechanism that is often switched on when DNA has been damaged

      So I guess the question is whether programmed cell death has certain other consequences.

      --
      Mon chien, il n'a pas du nez. Comment scent-il? TrÃs mauvais!
    13. Re:It will be interesting to see... by structural_biologist · · Score: 1

      In the PNAS paper published by the scientists, they noted that the "healer" strains of mice deficient in the p21 protein showed increased signs of DNA damage. These observations make sense because p21 is a key component of biochemical stress response pathways that, for example, stop a cell from dividing after its DNA has been damaged.

      In fact, p21 is one of the proteins that carries out instructions from the infamous p53 protein (the tumor-suppressor protein commonly referred to as the "Guardian of the Genome" that is mutated in over 50% of cancers). So, in terms of applications, disrupting p21 function in order to induce regenerative abilities would be like playing with fire: such a modification would shut down one pathway through which p53 protects cells against cancer. If one were to think of using this knowledge for regenerative medicine, applications where p21 is temporarily disabled (for example, through transient application of RNA interference) would be better than permanently shutting off the gene.

      Overall, however, this paper produces some nice evidence pointing to DNA damage as an important mechanism in aging. This is of course known, but it's always nice to see these concepts pop up in fields related to aging.

    14. Re:It will be interesting to see... by AceJohnny · · Score: 1

      you'll 'regenerate' yourself entirely full of tumors by age 20.

      The article states: "In these mice without p21, we do see the expected increase in DNA damage, but surprisingly no increase in cancer has been reported."

      Also, I suggest other /.ers read the article. It is high quality, not a random blog post.

      --
      Misleading titles? Inflammatory blurbs? Keep in mind that Slashdot is a tabloid.
    15. Re:It will be interesting to see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember, you are not a newt.

      I was, but I got better!

    16. Re:It will be interesting to see... by delt0r · · Score: 1

      It has been suggested that the "scar" response is prevents regeneration, and is "fitter" because infection is less likely.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    17. Re:It will be interesting to see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Shortened lifespan resulting from telomere depletion?

      As cells divide, a structure on each chromosome called a telomere assists with the DNA strand re-zipping after it gets copied. Each time this happens, the telomere gets slightly damaged.

      Runaway cell division in cancer is usually enabled by the production of a repair enzyme called telomerase, which repairs telomere structures. The cancerous cell is usually already featuring several noteworthy transcription and replication errors, which is what prompts this change in behavior.

      In healthy tissue, the production of telomerase would not be initiated, and so after aggressive tissue regeneration, whole cell cultures could start having apoptosis set in, as these telomeres degenerate past their useful life, which would result in huge amounts of necrosis going on.

      Being able to do this "Regenerative" trick would be very handy in the operating room, but not so handy in daily life, because of it's increased risk factors, including a potentially much shorter lifespan.

      I am interested to see if the p21 knockout effect can be replicated using a synthetic antagonist for the coded protein/enzyme. That would allow for an injectible to be given a few days before surgery, which would eventually wear off, and you would get the best of both worlds.

    18. Re:It will be interesting to see... by tmosley · · Score: 1

      But switching off that gene didn't effect the cancer rates.

    19. Re:It will be interesting to see... by rdavidson3 · · Score: 1

      No you're not, you'll be stone dead in a moment.

    20. Re:It will be interesting to see... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      But switching off that gene didn't effect the cancer rates.

      Of a certain genotype of mice for relatively short periods of time (mice aren't men - some men are mice but I digress). It is interesting research and will likely open up some new questions, but it's a bit premature to plan on regenerating things or saving up to pay for your new tail.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    21. Re:It will be interesting to see... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      I did see TFA's report of the effect on short-lived nonhuman model organisms. That provides grounds for a guess; but leaves a lot of room for uncertainty about what would happen to a much longer-lived human.

      The observed increase in apoptosis is another one that mice might not be able to help us too much with. For instance, to the degree we understand them, a lot of behaviorally and psychologically dramatic disorders can stem from differences in neural anatomy and chemistry that are extremely subtle(and, on the other side of the coin, people have been known to lose substantial chunks of their brains and carry on with astonishingly minimal effects). Without fairly subtle scrutiny, the behavior of a mouse probably won't tell you much about what increased apoptosis might do to a human.

    22. Re:It will be interesting to see... by SydShamino · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If on the other hand you make the presumption that an ancestor species had it, then you might wonder why we lost that ability. Sure, it might not affect survivability before age of reproduction either way. But then why did only those without the ability survive?

      It's a reasonable question when looked at from that angle.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    23. Re:It will be interesting to see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, but I'm interested in whether there's more to it. Our ancestors must've already been eating foods that contained vitamin C, for synthesis of it to be irrelevant.

      It's loss might even be the result of long term feedback and tolerance the body developed in response to having several times more than normal. The body's cells don't distinguish whether it's coming from an internal or external source, it just responds to it like an overproduction problem.

      From what I know, vitamin C has a very low level of toxicity. If other mammals are more sensitive to it than us (for the same concentration, worse effect), it may suggest our ancestors were really adapting to having too much.

      Then the loss of the trait for vitamin C synthesis, and inhibiting toxicity would've had selective pressures.

      It'd be interesting to find out if this is plausible. Other mammals being more sensitive would only hint at a possible link, but does somebody here know offhand if they are?

    24. Re:It will be interesting to see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mostly I got better...mostly

    25. Re:It will be interesting to see... by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

      So how commonplace is cancer in newts (seriously)?

    26. Re:It will be interesting to see... by Yvan256 · · Score: 1
    27. Re:It will be interesting to see... by tmosley · · Score: 1

      One would expect this to cause a massive increase in the incidence of cancer, but we don't see that. Instead, we see unchanged rates. This isn't an issue of different proteins, as is the case with most differences between mouse and human trials, this is a systemic issue. As such, one can now presume that there won't be any increase in cancer rates from this treatment. Of course, they need to move on to pig trials and eventually to human trials, but your criticism was unfounded. Indeed, it showed that you certainly didn't RTFA.

    28. Re:It will be interesting to see... by CecilPL · · Score: 1

      When we starting eating lots of fruit, we wound up getting a full allotment of Vitamin C whether or not we synthesized it. This removed the selection pressure that had been preventing mutant genes from spreading in the population.

      As to your second question, if there's a lack of selection pressure for long enough, eventually the gene will die out in the population - just like how a ball at the top of a hill will roll down in the absence of anything keeping it there.

    29. Re:It will be interesting to see... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      It is my favourite movie, you insensitive clod!

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    30. Re:It will be interesting to see... by Spatial · · Score: 1
      It's still a good question. I just wanted to point out that evolution doesn't always select for the optimal case.

      If on the other hand you make the presumption that an ancestor species had it, then you might wonder why we lost that ability. Sure, it might not affect survivability before age of reproduction either way. But then why did only those without the ability survive?

      There were never humans [or any apes] with the ability. We didn't lose it, we never had it to begin with.

      Species with the ability did survive though; some primates have it. We happen to be part of the branch that don't.

    31. Re:It will be interesting to see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see two possibilities.

      First is a bottleneck event. There was a creature in our ancestry that lived where others died out of luck, whether situational or genetic in another part of the DNA, and the rest didn't.

      The second is that in a vitamin C rich environment, the gene which codes for synthesis was largely unnecessary, and as such there was no selection to keep it intact. As it mutated, another allele of that gene had properties which -did- confer a large significant survival advantage, and quickly spread throughout the population, replacing whatever vitamin C synthesis was left.

    32. Re:It will be interesting to see... by IICV · · Score: 1

      Because at one point, all mammals were basically tiny shrew-like creatures. For a shrew, the difference between getting killed and being injured but recoverable is very very small; they wouldn't benefit very much at all from being able to regrow a limb (for instance), because when you get hit hard enough to lose a leg you're probably dead already. Also, since you're a warm-blooded animal, you can't just go to sleep for a week to blow through your reserves and regrow that leg; you'll starve to death first.

      Thus, scarring is no worse, and possibly somewhat better than regeneration for small, shrew-like creatures - they need to be better now now now, not next week after they've already starved to death.

    33. Re:It will be interesting to see... by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

      Remember, you are not a newt.

      I got better...

      *warning! meme mixing ahead* ...mostly.

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
    34. Re:It will be interesting to see... by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      Monty Python joke...

    35. Re:It will be interesting to see... by moortak · · Score: 1

      It could be that quick scarring to heal a wound was a better deal for survival than a slow regrowth. In a world with sufficient food, sterile wound dressings, and antibiotics regeneration would be clearly better. It might not have been for the protomammal.

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
  8. Which way first? by spaceman375 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The next step is to make some p21 specific RNA interference molecules and shut it down in an adult, non-regenerative mouse. Then clip its ear and see what happens.
    Since it also increases apoptosis, would this make a good diet pill?

    --
    On the one hand you take life too seriously, and on the other, you do not take playful existence seriously enough. Seth
    1. Re:Which way first? by Deosyne · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Screw that. 6.5+ billion people on this planet, many with a propensity toward cutting, scarring, beating, or even killing themselves, and we can't find just one who will volunteer to have this done so that we can see what will happen in a human? Christ, I could find a couple of dozen people in the next hour who would be willing to go on a suicide mission to Mars. Doing this kind of thing to an unwilling victim is straight-up evil, but finding volunteers really can't be that hard. Let's just answer the real question that we're trying to solve for rather than relying on these half-assed measures that take years to get to the point.

  9. Pythonic... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1, Redundant

    "She turned me into a newt!"... "I regenerated!".

  10. Spider-Man's Lizard by Akido37 · · Score: 1

    Isn't this the backstory to the Lizard? He tries to regrow his arm using amphibian DNA, and whoops - he turns into a Lizard.

    Hm, it sounds really stupid now that I've typed it out.

    1. Re:Spider-Man's Lizard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mary Jane loves Spider-Man's Lizard!

    2. Re:Spider-Man's Lizard by serialband · · Score: 2, Informative

      Isn't this the backstory to the Lizard? He tries to regrow his arm using amphibian DNA, and whoops - he turns into a Lizard.

      Hm, it sounds really stupid now that I've typed it out.

      Lizards are reptiles.

  11. Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by XB-70 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    This is, obviously, the holy grail for many injuries and holds out immense hope for amputees etc. etc. There's one thing about it that has me concerned. Darwinism is cruel. It causes the weak to fall by the wayside of evolution and the strong to perpetuate the best of the species. Nature does things for a reason. The question in the back of my mind is: if we fool with this, what are the underlying natural reasons for the gene to be turned off? We aught to be taking a very close look at the consequences of turning on this gene before we start trying to fool mother nature. In short, I'm not against it, I'm just concerned and cautious - are you?

    --
    *** Don't be dull.***
    1. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by MartinSchou · · Score: 1

      Which is why we do tests on lab animals instead of injecting random people with completely untested gene therapies.

      But don't tell PETA. They don't want you to do lab tests on animals, but they also don't want to volunteer themselves as human guinea pigs.

    2. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by compro01 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I can think of a couple reasons why this feature may have been dropped. nutrition (regrowing something is a hell of a lot more resource intensive than just closing the hole) and infection prevention (just closing the hole is a lot faster than regrowing something, so less chance of it getting infected). Both of these were relevant considerations very recently and evolution is pretty slow.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    3. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by Securityemo · · Score: 1

      We're all concerned and cautious, but where would we be in science and technology without enthusiasm and dreaming? Nobody's just going to start toggling DNA markers and associated cell machinery in humans without lots of testing on lower lifeforms - unless, of course, the human subject has nothing to lose.

      --
      Emotions! In your brain!
    4. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      the underlying natural reasons for the gene to be turned off? We aught to be taking a very close look at the consequences of turning on this gene

      Other way around: The absence of this single gene, called p21, confers a healing potential in mice

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    5. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure anyone with even a vague knowledge of evolution and basic highschool genetics will worry, but as long as they make vague promises like bigger dicks, hair regrowth and weight loss pills, they won't have any problems.

    6. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      Darwinism is cruel.

      Darwinism is a description of natural processes. Cruelty requires intent, and there is no evidence of intent in the underlying processes, never mind the description of those same.

      Nature does things for a reason.

      Again, there is no evidence of this point of view.

      I'm not sure how you got modded up. I can only assume the intelligent design folks somehow got points today.

    7. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by zwei2stein · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Any form of health care is dangerous this way.

      Consider this: we can (and do) save many children with birth defects, often we are succesfull enough so that they can leard normal life (and even be oblivious to any issues). Problem is that some of theese defects are hereditary. Guess what? Next generation is worse off as far as ratio of defects is concerned.

      We obviously will never do "sparta" thing and kill of children society finds undesirable. Nor will anyone with genetic defect be prevented from having children. Neither is civilized resolution or would be even remotelly popular (would you want to risk your child falling victim to it? noone would.)

      Anyway, I would not worry about this particular medical advance. This regeneration propably caused cancer if it got out of controll (cancer with nondiversified cells as medium is quite scarry).

      --
      -- Technology for the sake of technology is as pathetic as eschewing technology because it's technology.
    8. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by DrMaurer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think you have an interesting point here on the resource requirements of regeneration. Part of the obesity problem is that our bodies evolved to store whatever they couldn't use right now for later, so it stands to reason that such things were "turned off" for efficiency's sake. We didn't necessarily evolve in a land of plenty

      As for infection rates, I would like to see that study done, too...

      --
      Dan
    9. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by lawpoop · · Score: 4, Funny

      Darwinism is cruel... Nature does things for a reason.

      Narture wants to be anthropomorphized ;)

      It nature is so cruel and barbaric, then for what reason did it evolve human beings who feel sympathy, empathy, are able to learn, and practice healing arts?

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    10. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      Nature does things for a reason

      Actually, no it doesn't.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    11. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Part of the obesity problem ...

      So this gene will be a solution to that problem as well:

      You're fat? No problem, just lop off a leg, it'll regrow, and in the process consume the excess belly...

    12. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by Rogue974 · · Score: 1

      This was already answered on Star Trek Next Generation, Episode Genesis. Data and Picard come back from chasing a run away torpedo they were testing. While gone, Dr. Crusher activated a dormant gen in Lt. Barkley so he could naturally fight off an alien flu virus. The newly activated defense went airborne and started activating all of the dormant genes in the entire crew and they all de-evolved to lower forms of life. So if they proceed, it will activate other things that nature turned off and we will all end up as freaks of nature and some day, hundred of years in the future, the aliens will land and find the remains of our society with the many strange and varied species of monkeys that shouldn't exist and they will wonder were all the people that made the society went to, not realizing we are right there...all those strange looking monkeys that are watching them explore the remains of our cities! Then they will try and move in and the primitive half-ape-man gone wrong things will attack and there will be mass chaos as battle between primitives and aliens happen and then something close to Dances with Wolves, or Avatar happens! I followed the advice of your sig and decided to not be dull in my response.

    13. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by ispeters · · Score: 1

      Nature does things for a reason.

      Again, there is no evidence of this point of view.

      I'm not sure how you got modded up. I can only assume the intelligent design folks somehow got points today.

      First, I should make it clear that I think "Intelligent Design" is bunk, and I accept as fact that life evolves. Given that, my understanding of evolution permits "Nature does things for a reason" as an imprecise way of describing survival of the fittest. It's possible to imagine an ancient mammal or pre-mammal without this p21 gene that could regenerate. If a mutant showed up with the p21 gene and was fitter for it, then the gene would proliferate and nature's "reason" for the proliferation is that the gene is useful. Similarly, maybe salamanders "lost" p21 because of a useful mutation, and you could again interpret that as nature "having a reason" for the elimination of the gene from the salamander's gene pool.

      I'd agree that "Nature does things for a reason" sounds a little like Intelligent Design because anthropomorphizing nature makes it seem like the speaker believes in an intelligent agent with motivations and "reasons", but it's a bit pedantic to assume that's the only possible interpretation.

      Ian

    14. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by XB-70 · · Score: 1

      Could you substantiate that? I'm interested in your reasoning. With respect, I would disagree and I provide one simple example: Lions have manes. The reason is to protect the neck. It makes sense to protect a delicate area in an animal that is a predator and will be involved in life and death struggles.

      --
      *** Don't be dull.***
    15. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by XB-70 · · Score: 1
      No other species on the planet has the combination of brain size, bipedal physique and leisure time (as a result) that Homo Sapiens does. These evolutionary advantages have caused us to evolve and to gain insights into our environment.

      Now, while we do have sympathy, empathy and healing, we also have opression, violence, murder and wholesale slaughter/massacre (Rwanda, Srebrenica). The fact that we are capable of both indicates an inherent Darwinism within our own species.

      --
      *** Don't be dull.***
    16. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by XB-70 · · Score: 1

      Thanks Ian - for defending my point of view (I think!). Being blond, I have been blessed with genetics that allow me to go through life bereft of worry because I am without the ability to understand the deep thoughts that intelligent people have! I am just concerned about the outcome of turning this gene on and the consequences therein. Let me also state for the record that I am NOT an adherent to "Intelligent Design".

      --
      *** Don't be dull.***
    17. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With one out of eight people unemployed and most of those without insurance, we should be able to bypass the animals.

    18. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      Could you substantiate that? I'm interested in your reasoning. With respect, I would disagree and I provide one simple example: Lions have manes. The reason is to protect the neck. It makes sense to protect a delicate area in an animal that is a predator and will be involved in life and death struggles.

      That's not science it's intelligent design by nature, the banana argument from a naturalistic perspective.
      The mutation does not occur because it would be useful, the mutation occurs and survives because it is useful (or at least not harmful), over time assuring that animals that "fit" best in their environment will thrive. Don't confuse the cause and effect.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    19. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm concerned that you're anthropomorphizing nature.

      Nature does not do things for a reason. Nature is a product of blind cause-and-effect, not of intelligence.

    20. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      Thanks for that. You explained it in a much better manner than I would have.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    21. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, since we don't know for sure, lets carefully give it a go and see what happens. We can try carefully a few times, and study the results, learning and improving as we go. Or we could go the American way, let some company step out into the unknown whole-hog, create a huge unforseen disaster (there has to be a disaster), and if it could also include explosions, earthquakes and frogs raining from the sky, that would be a nice touch. Then have the American government ban all access and incarcerate anyone experimenting or studying this, storing even promising results in some giant secret government warehouse somewhere (see the last scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark for a reference).

    22. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      My bad, I did get a little jumpy. Evolution does it to me, I've had one too many people explain about gods and control and design and whatever. I now tend to pounce on the first sign of ID infiltrating a scientific discussion.

    23. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      Yeah, sorry about that. Nothing personal :D

    24. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by Yamata+no+Orochi · · Score: 1

      Maybe that has something to do with why they're testing it on mice instead of immediately patenting and having some drug approved by the FDA for human consumption. What are you trying to convince us of?

    25. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You gonna finish that leg?

    26. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Narture wants to be anthropomorphized ;)

      It nature is so cruel and barbaric, then for what reason did it evolve human beings who feel sympathy, empathy, are able to learn, and practice healing arts?

      You said it yourself: So that we could anthropomorphize nature!

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    27. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by pclminion · · Score: 1

      There's one thing about it that has me concerned. Darwinism is cruel. It causes the weak to fall by the wayside of evolution and the strong to perpetuate the best of the species. Nature does things for a reason.

      "Cruel," "weak," "strong," "best," "reason." That's an awful lot of total bullshit.

      Here's one of my favorite analogies. You're driving on a country road in autumn. On either side of the road, there are fallen leaves piled up. On the road itself, there are no leaves. LIKEOHMIGOD. What could have caused this to happen? The answer, obviously, is that any leaf which lies in the road will be blown around by passing cars at random, until it eventually (randomly!) comes to rest on the side of the road, away from the influence of the cars. The result is an ordering of the system. The leaves on the side of the road are stable. The leaves on the road are not stable. Hopefully, you see the insanity of ascribing any sort of willfulness, or distinction between "weak" and "strong" leaves, or try to find any "reason" for it other than simply that the leaves move until they no longer move.

      In this case, the passing cars represent the forces of nature and environment which dictate which organisms survive and which do not survive. When you say that nature is weeding out the weak from the strong, it's like saying that one of the goals of the passing cars is to push all the leaves to the side of the road.

      Now, you're driving down the road and you see a leaf right in the middle. LIKEOHMIGOD-AGAIN! Something terribly deep must be happening here. Something unexpected, like the lack of mammalian regeneration. There must be a good reason for it! The passing cars (nature) must be singling out this leaf as special somehow, and not throwing it to the side of the road!

      The answer turns out to be that the leaf is stuck to the pavement by a piece of chewing gum. Aww, there wasn't any deep meaning after all.

    28. Re:Be careful when fooling Mother Nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It nature is so cruel and barbaric, then for what reason did it evolve human beings who feel sympathy, empathy...

      As an audience. Obviously nature grew tired of doing it for its own sadistic pleasure, and thought it would be cool to generate an audience who could be shocked and dismayed. (This is anthropomorphism gone wild, of course, but what the heck.)

  12. Highlander? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then the immortals are just humans with p21 expressed?

  13. Why was that gene there? by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    Somewhat not being able to regenerate (or something deeply related with that) gave us an evolutionary advantage. Is pretty tempting to just make pills to turn that off, but what will be the cost? Don't think that you will fall into not being able to get older or make new memories, but still stinks to too good to be true.

    1. Re:Why was that gene there? by hitmark · · Score: 1

      i suspect it will be used more targeted then a general pill.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
  14. All very nice stuff, but... by Nihiltres · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...in practice, do we have the technology to knock this gene out in humans? That's the key thing. Either you have to engineer every human to have the gene before birth, or you have to do a live fix. And a live fix has all sorts of complications.

    Of course, I'm completely ignoring potential side effects. This is best if you imagine a drug for it being advertised: "Regrowitol may cause side effects including cancer, accessory limbs, mutation into evil lizard creature..."

    We're living in the future, sure. But we don't have all the cheat codes for reality yet.

    1. Re:All very nice stuff, but... by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      A live fix in the sense of gene therapy is *maybe* possible for example by targeted insertion of a retrovirus into the gene coding for p21. However, such gene therapy methods have not worked very well so far. It is especially problematic to target a majority of somatic cells. Most gene therapy trials so far were aimed at hematopoetic stem cells in bone marrow, which can be extracted and treated ex vivo. This would not work in this case, so at the moment, I don't see a very promising way to do it. An alternative to gene therapy would be a targeted inhibitor. p21 works, amongst others, by inhibiting the working of certain enzymes responsible for cell cycle progression - the cyclin dependent kinases (CDK). One could possibly try to find a small molecule that blocks the interaction of p21 with those CDKs or other proteins affected by p21. You would have to take that medication constantly to retain the regenerative function of p21 blockage. To my knowledge, no such molecule is known as of yet, but I am out of that field for a while.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
  15. Oh yes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What the fuck? Lady Gaga is kind of hot. I know she has a penis, but if I could have sex with her and Beyonce...well butter my ass and call me a homo.

  16. What's the downside? by Biotech9 · · Score: 4, Informative

    A lot of people are asking why evolution has taken away our regenerative capacities, and are guessing what the downside of this regeneration is.

    P21 is involved with anti-cancer. It arrests the cell cycle when DNA damage occurs, allowing the damage to be repaired (so mistakes are not carried forward into new generations). Or if the damage is too severe, the cell is made senescent (they lose the ability to reproduce and instead lead out a gentle retirement, performing their normal job until they just die of old age)

    P21 knockout mice show a lot of carcinomas and P21 is also up-regulated by and works to remedy excessive oxidative stress. It's very unlikely this research is going to lead to a pill that knocks out P21 and lets us grow limbs back. It will only lead to a greater understanding of how our pathways work.

    1. Re:What's the downside? by Cormacus · · Score: 1
      So there was an interesting line in the article:

      Heber-Katz said. "In these mice without p21, we do see the expected increase in DNA damage, but surprisingly no increase in cancer has been reported." In fact, the researchers saw an increase in apoptosis in MRL mice -- also known as programmed cell death -- the cell's self-destruct mechanism that is often switched on when DNA has been damaged

      What are the consequences of apoptosis vs senescence?

      --
      Mon chien, il n'a pas du nez. Comment scent-il? TrÃs mauvais!
    2. Re:What's the downside? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Or if the damage is too severe, the cell is made senescent (they lose the ability to reproduce and instead lead out a gentle retirement, performing their normal job until they just die of old age)

      I just heard one of my P21-arrested liver cells audibly scoff at that "gentle retirement" bit. :)

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    3. Re:What's the downside? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Well, it's also useful for medical reasons. If we develop a molecule/protein that counteracts the protein fabricated by p21, we could temporarily get the healing power (for example, to heal damage to internal organs), without giving up the anti-cancer protection. This would be localized, and not too dangerous as the effects are temporary.

    4. Re:What's the downside? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Apoptosis is basically instant death for the cell when the appropriate apoptosis signal is triggered. Senescence results in cell death, but not immediately. The cell is rather arrested in a state where it can't reproduce anymore and finally dies of whatever kills it first.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    5. Re:What's the downside? by radtea · · Score: 1

      P21 knockout mice show a lot of carcinomas

      The article claims that there is no increase observed.

      The overwhelmingly likely factor in regeneration vs scaring is that the warm-blooded creatures scar, cold-blooded creatures regenerate (more or less). There are pretty obvious reasons why a creature that needs a fairly constant supply of food would be selected for a healing mechanism that works very quickly, as opposed to one that works slowly but restores more complete functionality.

      Because evolution is an elaborative process, it is likely that scaring came about by repurposing genes that control regeneration in other species (there's a lab at the University of Ottawa working on this, I believe--can't recall who.) Therefore creatures that scar don't regenerate, but have a latent ability to do so with a little tweaking.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
  17. P.S. by Nihiltres · · Score: 1

    Minor note to above for the pedantic: when I say "have the gene before birth" I mean "have the modification".

  18. caveat by TheMeuge · · Score: 4, Informative

    Of course the caveat to using mice to judge how a gene affects long-term development of cancer is that there really is no "long-term" on a human scale in mouse studies, since they only live about 3 years at most.

    I'm also not entirely familiar with the effect of p21-deficiency in cases where major tumor suppressors are deregulated or otherwise deficient. It is feasible that in the absence of further regulation, the absence of a major cell cycle checkpoint will lead to a more severe phenotype, whether in terms of being more tumor prone, or development of more aggressive tumors.

    1. Re:caveat by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      what was the reason we commonly use mice again? I don't remember the exacts, but isn't it something like their immune systems respond similarly or something?

    2. Re:caveat by egomaniac · · Score: 3, Informative

      Primarily because they are cheap to breed and raise, take up very little space, reach maturity quickly, and people usually don't freak out about experiments on mice the same way they would on (say) primates.

      They are also an acceptable human analogue in that they generally respond to medication and treatments similarly to how a human would; there are certainly other animals which are better models, but there are logistical, economic and public relations issues with trying to keep hundreds of chimpanzees in order to punch holes in their ears.

      --
      ZFS: because love is never having to say fsck
    3. Re:caveat by somersault · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The article also says this:

      In fact, the researchers saw an increase in apoptosis in MRL mice -- also known as programmed cell death -- the cell's self-destruct mechanism that is often switched on when DNA has been damaged. According to Heber-Katz, this is exactly the sort of behavior seen in naturally regenerative creatures.

      Does that mean shorter lifespan for the lifeform overall, or does it simply mean that individual cells will die regularly and then quickly be regenerated?

      --
      which is totally what she said
    4. Re:caveat by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Of course the caveat to using mice to judge how a gene affects long-term development of cancer is that there really is no "long-term" on a human scale in mouse studies, since they only live about 3 years at most.

      A very good point. I've heard that mice tend to get cancers of the blood, like leukemia rather than epithelial cancers like tumors, wheras we humans tend to get tumors more than the other types. I can't find a citation for that though, so take that for what little it's worth, but I think most people would agree that a knockout mouse not getting more cancer is not enough of a safeguard. It may be that lack of p21 doesn't increase the blood type cancers that mice normally get, but increases the risk of tumors, just not as severely as knockout of p53 or others, so we're not seeing it.

      And we clearly don't know the full effects. Although p21 appears to be in most contexts in the mouse a gene that would directly promote rather than stop cancer (so by taking it away you'd be decreasing that) that's a long way from "Taking it away won't cause cancer in any tissue you wish to regenerate in humans." The fact that it causes regeneration alone suggests that deleting it has complicated effects.

    5. Re:caveat by yabos · · Score: 1

      The article mentions that with this gene missing there is also an increase in programmed cell death due to DNA damage. You could infer from that the possibility that this increases your resistance to cancer since the damaged cells are more readily killed before they can multiply.

    6. Re:caveat by TheMeuge · · Score: 1

      Without more information (I am not particularly knowledgeable in that area), I would be cautious to make ANY sweeping judgments with regards to the concerns you brought up. This may not have any significant impact.

      However, it is true that during regeneration, cells have to undergo programmed death in order to preserve the organization of the tissue, similarly to what happens during embryonic and post-embryonic development.

    7. Re:caveat by dubbreak · · Score: 1

      Of course the caveat to using mice to judge how a gene affects long-term development of cancer is that there really is no "long-term" on a human scale in mouse studies, since they only live about 3 years at most.

      Time to bring out the monkeys.

      --
      "If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
    8. Re:caveat by rockNme2349 · · Score: 3, Funny

      there are logistical, economic and public relations issues with trying to keep hundreds of chimpanzees in order to punch holes in their ears.

      Ahh, high school...

      --
      Sewage Treatment Facilities - "Our duty is clear."
    9. Re:caveat by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      Like we don't already punch holes in the ears of livestock to put tags on them? Pigs would be a better analogue, and tastier too.

      Mal-2

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    10. Re:caveat by Enleth · · Score: 1

      AFAIK (and I might be wrong, I'm no biologist, but I remember reading this in more than one book), mammals have this interesting property in that the ratios of their metabolic rate, cell division rate and lifespan are roughly equal across species.

      --
      This is Slashdot. Common sense is futile. You will be modded down.
    11. Re:caveat by ArbitraryDescriptor · · Score: 2, Funny

      You could probably keep 10+ mice, quite comfortably, in the volume of space an adult pig takes up. I could probably keep 100 caged mice in my office, with ample room for them to run around and live relatively normal mouse-lives; whereas a single pig would probably be tearing this place up and demanding half* its body weight in food everyday. It would be ridiculous.

      No, the logical solution here is to find out which gene we need to turn off to make mice taste like pork and just go from there.

      This post paid for by Monsanto and a grant from the Moreau Foundation.
      Macon: It ain't just a city in Georgia

      *IANAPF

    12. Re:caveat by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      As someone who has kept both mice and rats, cancer is very common in their 3 year lifespan. Probably as common as it is for a total human lifespan.

    13. Re:caveat by fractoid · · Score: 1

      And when you got your six pieces, you gotta get rid of them, because it's no good leaving it in the deep freeze for your mum to discover, now is it? Then I hear the best thing to do is feed them to pigs. You got to starve the pigs for a few days, then the sight of a chopped-up body will look like curry to a pisshead. You gotta shave the heads of your victims, and pull the teeth out for the sake of the piggies' digestion. You could do this afterwards, of course, but you don't want to go sievin' through pig shit, now do you? They will go through bone like butter. You need at least sixteen pigs to finish the job in one sitting, so be wary of any man who keeps a pig farm. They will go through a body that weighs 200 pounds in about eight minutes. That means that a single pig can consume two pounds of uncooked flesh every minute. Hence the expression, "as greedy as a pig".

      - Brick Top, Snatch

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
  19. Safety switch. by Ihlosi · · Score: 1

    My guess is that while not having this gene results in wonderous regenerative abilities, it'll also increase your chances of developing cancer before the age of 20 by a bajillionfold. Not a problem for mice, but certainly a problem for men.

    1. Re:Safety switch. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Possible cancer in future years, or the rest of your life with no hands? I'll take the cancer. Besides, if you know it's coming, you can go for extra MRIs and catch it very early.

    2. Re:Safety switch. by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      Possible cancer in future years, or the rest of your life with no hands? I'll take the cancer.

      Problem is that you'll have to chose well before you lose your hands. Or rather - your parents have to make that choice. At least until we can do a full-body gene exchange.

      Besides, if you know it's coming, you can go for extra MRIs and catch it very early.

      That cancer will be nastier than most we know, and if you defeat the first one, the next few will get you. I doubt that spending the rest of your life between the OR, chemotherapy and radiation therapy is going to be fun.

  20. Anyone think about what it's going to feel like? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Losing an appendage and regrowing it? That's gotta sting!

  21. PNAS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Be careful how you pronounce this.

  22. Why won't God heal amputees? by Holammer · · Score: 1

    ... when science does? Cheap shots aside, here's hoping that this actually get a practical application that will help people in the future.

    1. Re:Why won't God heal amputees? by r_benchley · · Score: 1
  23. Wait, so.. by flintmecha · · Score: 0

    ...the expierment involves removing the gene which prohibits the regeneration.
    Interesting how that works. I would think the existence of a gene would grant the existence of a trait, not the absence of it. Then again, I'm no biologist. So mammals evolved this gene which prevents tissue regeneration. I wonder why?

    Anyway, this is really cool.

    1. Re:Wait, so.. by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      ...to prevent uncontrolled tissue growth, AKA cancer?

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    2. Re:Wait, so.. by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      It is not that simple in the field of cellular regulation. The mammalian cell has a complex network of signals and signal processing proteins that control the development of the cell - when it divides, when it dies, when it goes into a resting state. Within such a network, there is no simple "one gene - one trait" relationship. Blocking the p21 gene alters the behaviour of this network in a way that makes regeneration possible in mice. The function of the gene - or rather its product - is to block entry of cells into a certain development phase. It acts as a checkpoint mechanism for development. That is not purely a negative trait as in "loss of regeneration", but can be viewed as positive as in "increased control over cellular development". It is quite hard to slap simple evaluations on such functions. The reason why the system evolved that way may be cancer prevention, it may also be a more fine-grained control over tissue development.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
  24. Not all mutations are bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This might be true, the bad mutation might even be non fatal but that is not really the point. The thing to consider is the evolutionary advantage (or disadvantage) it gives. I would think that bad mutations give an evolutionary disadvantage and thus be selected against. So the question really is... "What sort of evolutionary advantage does it impart?" I really don't know the answer and I suspect that the researchers are just beginning to answer that question.

  25. evolution purists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For the evolution purists out there. Don't worry about it. Genetic problems are always self correcting, despite all our efforts to the contrary. Disaster and catastrophe are always around the corner. As a race, we will either be strong enough to survive or smart enough to compensate...or not. After all, if you are a purist, and we go the way of the dinosuar, that it is as it should be, right?

    1. Re:evolution purists by CorporateSuit · · Score: 1, Troll

      After all, if you are a purist, and we go the way of the dinosuar, that it is as it should be

      Evolutiontologists believe that dinosaurs did not die. They all grew wings and became birds when they saw the meteor coming.

      --
      I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
  26. I don't know anything beyond high school biology. by calibre-not-output · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But this still makes me giddy for the future of Medicine.

    --
    Nothing lasts forever but the certainty of change.
  27. Promissing but... by Corson · · Score: 2, Informative

    It is unlikely that a process so complex as mammalian tissue regeneration be controlled by a single gene. Moreover, p21 mutations have been associated with cancers. Which brings forth another question: why is it that only "lower" organisms (and mammalian fetuses) are capable of scar-less tissue regeneration? The answer is yet to be discovered but it is very likely that evolution had to stroke a balance between cancer control and tissue regeneration. It won't be easy to figure out "the way back" to regeneration, or even to avoid the risks of such a path.

  28. PETA....... by axor1337 · · Score: 1, Funny

    People Eating Tasty Animals But then as the Nugent says "You have to Kill it, before you Grill it."

    --
    there are 10 types of people in this world, those who read binary and those who don't. which are you!
    1. Re:PETA....... by natehoy · · Score: 2, Funny

      Just remember, there's room for all of God's creatures... right there, next to the mashed potatoes.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
  29. Darwinism in a social context... by Xzisted · · Score: 1

    The only reason that mammals with an active p21 gene and the inability to regenerate tissue continued on and p21 suppressed mammals did not is because chicks dig scars. No perfectly healthy scarless male is going to attract a hot chick who is only interested in the dummy injury prone type.

    --

    Honesty may be the best policy, but apparently by elimination, dishonesty is the second best policy.
  30. One important question remains: by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

    What is the reason that life forms without that ability won the evolutionary war in the first place?
    What bad could come from that ability? Side-effects?
    Because I really can’t see any downsides.

    Anyone here who is a bit more of an expert than the random coward? ;)

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    1. Re:One important question remains: by Spatial · · Score: 1

      Evolution produces entities that meet the following criterion: sufficient to survive and reproduce.

      Regenerating limbs doesn't help with that very much. If you get into a situation where you need to regenerate a limb, you'll probably die anyway. Most of human evolution took place before civilisation, let alone modern medicine.

      Also, try to bear in mind that evolution isn't a thinking entity. It doesn't matter what upsides or downsides a given trait conveys from a human perspective. It's just a process which follows a pattern, and that pattern doesn't necessarily produce improvement. In fact its standards are incredibly low.

    2. Re:One important question remains: by compro01 · · Score: 1

      1. Energy requirements - Regrowing an entire appendage is not cheap and warm blooded mammals already have high basic energy requirements compared to the cold blooded creatures where regeneration does take place. Being able to regrow an arm doesn't help much if it increases your energy requirements so much that it results in you starving to death in the meantime.

      2. Basic survival rate - Prior to modern medicine (antibiotics in particular, which were only discovered about 80 years ago, which is practically yesterday in evolutionary scales), the odds of surviving an injury that resulted in the loss of a limb was very low. Not much point in being able to regrow a limb if you'll die from infection before that. Just closing up the hole with scar tissue is a lot faster (especially with far more common more minor injuries), leaving that much less time for infection to set in.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
  31. Other News: Genetically-Modified Spider Disappears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In other news a genetically-modified spider has disappeared from a NYC museum. The disappearance was noticed after a high school group had gone for a tour through the museum. Museum personnel explained, that the disappearance should not concern anyone as the spiders cannot reproduce.

  32. I have access to a PNAS... by zero_out · · Score: 4, Funny

    Here is the academic paper for those with PNAS access.

    I have access to a PNAS. Sometimes I let my wife have access to it, too.

    1. Re:I have access to a PNAS... by Tokerat · · Score: 1

      Womynists everywhere already oppose this research, and are organizing chants of "This PNAS party's got to go, hey hey, ho ho!"

      --
      CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
  33. Where is the Evolutionary Advantage? by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    Presumably in the past there must have been some evolutionary advantage to developing scars rather than regrowing a new limb. It is possible that this might not be a factor that helps us now. For example perhaps it allowed more rapid recovery from a serious wound whereas now, with hospitals and modern medicine, a more complete recovery would be an advantage over speed. However until we have some idea what the advantage was/is it would be wise to proceed with some caution.

    1. Re:Where is the Evolutionary Advantage? by pydev · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Presumably in the past there must have been some evolutionary advantage to developing scars rather than regrowing a new limb.

      Speed is one possible reason. Another may be that a lot of scars are caused by things that persist (e.g. splinters, fibers, parasites), and it is potentially useful to encapsulate them in fibrous tissue, rather than regenerating normal tissue.

  34. hold your regenerating troll-horses by bzdyelnik · · Score: 2, Informative

    The wikipedia entry for p21 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P21) is somewhat misleading about its relationship with cancer. For a good review, see: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayFulltext?type=1&fid=1919868&jid=ERM&volumeId=10&issueId=-1&aid=1919860 Excerpt: "However, p21-null mice were found to be more susceptible to chemically induced tumours of the skin (Ref. 94) and colon (Ref. 95), and following irradiation they displayed increased tumourigenesis and metastases (Ref. 96). In addition, using different mouse strains, others have found that p21-null mice exhibit spontaneous tumour formation in the background of other genetic knockouts, such as Muc22/2 (lacking mucin 2) (Ref. 97) and Apc1638/2 (carrying a mutant allele of the adenomatosis polyposis coli gene) (Ref. 98). Furthermore, subsequent to the initial description of p21-null mice, investigators have found that p21-null mice bred on a 129Sv/ C57BL6 50:50 background did in fact develop spontaneous tumours at an average age of 16 months (Ref. 99). Collectively, these mouse studies demonstrated the importance of p21 in mediating the G1 checkpoint, and its ability to function as a tumour suppressor."

    1. Re:hold your regenerating troll-horses by Well-Fed+Troll · · Score: 1

      Is it possible to knock out p21 and then re-introduce it? How about knocking it out only in a certain region of the body?
      Only a small percentage of the population need to regrow a limb, and only for a certain time frame. It might be worth the risk of developing a cancer to regrow an arm or pair of legs.

    2. Re:hold your regenerating troll-horses by bzdyelnik · · Score: 1

      I would expect that for full regrowth, all or at least most of the cells would have to have the right conditions (p21 -/-, perhaps). So the entire regrown tissue would likely be at a high risk for tumors.

  35. Meeces by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 2, Informative

    ...since they only live about 3 years at most.

    Somebody's never watched The Green Mile.

  36. Newt Doctors? by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    Scarring is much faster, and probably carries a lower risk of infection for creatures that don't have access to medical care.

    What medical care do newts have access to?

    1. Re:Newt Doctors? by radtea · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What medical care do newts have access to?

      It's incredibly funny to watch all the well-fed deep thinkers here scratch their heads and try to come up with complicated solutions to a trivial problem: cold blooded animals don't have to keep eating on a daily basis to survive. Ergo, they have time to regenerate. They can just find a place to curl up while it happens.

      Warm blooded animals need a much more regular food supply. Ergo, there is an advantage to them in a fast and adequate healing.

      No mysterious cancer-causing whatevers need be invoked. It is most probably a simple issue of energy budget.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
  37. We are the borg by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Resistance is futile..!

    I wonder when we will be able to grow hearts, livers and other replacement organs, like brains for some people.

    But really, has a single mouse, cow, pig, chicken, or amphebian benefitted from this branch of research?

  38. But the book didn't say! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, how does the God book explain how all of this is working? Is this still all part of the design?

  39. Good news for bobbit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good news for bobbit, he can finally re-grow his PNAS...

  40. The consequence is scary: a world of cheerleaders. by garompeta · · Score: 1
    If we all agree that the real purpose of reproduction is to perpetuate ourselves for the survival of the species...

    Then with the eventual eradication of death (or continuous delaying of death) our reproductive function will begin to become a liability for our survival on this planet. (Overpopulating the world, depletion of natural resources, etc...)

    If we achieve perfect regeneration and become almost immortals, are we going destined to live in a sexless world?... is space colonization the answer to this problem?

    Just some food for thought...

  41. How many studies are no longer valid? by BobMcD · · Score: 1

    As it turned out, p21 knockout mice had already been created, were readily available, and widely used in many studies.

    How many studies showing that 'X leaves no lasting damage' are now no longer valid because they were tested on regenerating mice???

  42. Regeneration Miracle by imess · · Score: 1

    Quite off topic, but I don't remember any Jesus-regenerated-a-limb miracles in the Bible, or are there?

  43. Likely increases cancer by SoopahMan · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As you demonstrate you already know, cancer prevention is partly about restricting the uncontrolled growth of cells; a tumor is cells growing without controls, so many natural defenses against cancer place controls on cell growth, sometimes by inhibiting healthy cell growth as well.

    Turning off a gene like p21 is probably going to impact your body's ability to control and respond to cancer:

    http://www.google.com/search?q=p21+cancer

    In particular, in that search is a powerpoint presentation discussing the body's immunoresponse to cancer, in which p53 initiates and governs several important responses, one of which involves turning on p21 to begin replacing it with healthy cells.

    Obviously, that observed response goes away if you knock out p21; it's likely that without the aid of that process, the process is impacted and cancer is more likely to succeed.

    There are numerous other examples of p21 aiding cancer prevention, removal, and replacement in that search - have a look.

    I'd like to see the comparative cancer rates of normal mice and p21-knockout mice.

    1. Re:Likely increases cancer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See comment http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1586036&cid=31509134 for references to one

  44. re: Population growth by Well-Fed+Troll · · Score: 1

    In the US, population growth rate is lower than the rest of the world. If the US did not have immigration, our growth rate would be negative. Liberia & Western Sahara are among the highest growth rates.
    This could mean that population growth and medical care/human well-being are inversely correlated. If this is true we don't need to worry so much about overpopulation.

  45. Does shriveled count? by Well-Fed+Troll · · Score: 1

    Jesus: Mark 3:1
    (a "man of god"): 1 Kings 13:4

    Jesus also did an ear re-attachment, caused lame to walk & blind to see.

  46. Especially useful by el+cisne · · Score: 1

    See: John Wayne Bobbit

  47. Re: Population growth by garompeta · · Score: 1
    Well that the low birth rate is actually more related to general well-being, and which is indirectly related to medical care.

    In our current case, where humans are actually still dying, a negative growth is actually worrisome.

    The movie Idiocracy might actually have a very valid point.

  48. Can we grow back mouses from tails? by OMFG+it's+Rici · · Score: 1

    Can we grow back entire mouses from tails? :v

  49. Re:So, a timely thought by hicksw · · Score: 1

    ...the reason mammals don't regenerate naturally has to do with speed...

    So you lose an arm, then it grows back, but it takes 20 years.

    And that's 20 years of p21 suppression with enhanced cancer risk.