Indian Military Hopes to Weaponize the Searing "Ghost Pepper"

coondoggie writes "The military in India is looking to weaponize the world's hottest chili, the bhut jolokia or 'ghost pepper,' according to a number of news outlets. The Bhut Jolokia chili pepper from Assam, India is no ordinary pepper. In tests first conducted by the New Mexico State University in 2008 and subsequently confirmed by Guinness World records and others, the Bhut Jolokia reached over one million Scoville heat units, while the next hottest, the Red Savina Habenero, clocks in at a mere 577,000. Scoville units are a universally accepted measure of chili hotness."

Comments

OK ...

[WrongSizeGlass]

... but how does this compare to the Merciless Pepper of Quetzalacatenango, also known as the Guatemalan Insanity Pepper?

Scoville units are a universally accepted measure of chili hotness

I thought SCOville was universally accepted to be a litigious outhouse?

Re:OK ...

[Terminal Saint]

The problem with Scoville units(and the reason they're NOT a universally accepted measure of chili hotness) is that it's a subjective measure. It's based on taste testing. American Spice Trade Association pungency units are a better measure, as they're determined using high performance liquid chromatography.

Re:OK ...

[rivetgeek]

Uh...no. Scoville units are a measure of the amount of capsaicin. It is entirely objective

Re:OK ...

[EricTheO]

The original Dr. Scoville did indeed use test subjects to grade the hotness of chili's. When a new more accurate scientific method of recording capsaicin levels was invented they named it after Dr. Scoville. I wonder about this weaponizing of chili's, as it is now Pepper Sprays use a concentrated extract that they actually have to delute to make it safe enough for use on perps.

Military Application

[Ironhandx]

Screw invading Iraq, next time do India. Don't forget the nachos though!

Re:Military Application

[MichaelSmith]

If you want good food go to Malaysia.

Indeed.

[Pojut]

There is something else I've weaponized, but it won't give you that searing sensation...

Re:Tastes great

[DMUTPeregrine]

It does taste good. Has an excellent, complex and slightly smoky flavour. Also about as spicy as most pepper spray.
I am American, not Indian, BTW. Just a pepperhead.

Not needed?

[Hoi Polloi]

From past experience I can recommened the development of a chicken Vindaloo bomb. It will cause injuries when dropped then again about 24 hours later.

Re:Not needed?

[Hoi Polloi]

Actually I meant more like 6-8 hours

Re:Not needed?

[Chris Burke]

And here I was thinking more like 15 minutes.

But seriously, weaponized Indian food, aside from being redundant, has got to be banned by some kind of international treaty.

Re:Not needed?

[Stele]

I'll be wearing my full-body Lager-suit. Bring it on!

Re:Not needed?

[mjwx]

But seriously, weaponized Indian food, aside from being redundant, has got to be banned by some kind of international treaty.

Nonsense, this is merely combining weapon delivery with aid delivery. Remember when the US was dropping bombs and food in Afghanistan, that took two sorties, this combines both activities into half the flight time (maintenance and so forth). I for one am looking forward to the poppadom launcher, in conjunction with the superior pepper spray and the kormathrower we will quickly turn war into a complete and nutritious meal.

Technically this is already classed as a chemical weapon and is already restricted by international arms laws, similar to the was CS gas is.

Not the Next Hottest

[hardburn]

The next hottest down would be the closely-related Dorset Naga, which is around 900k - 1M scovilles.

But that's if you believe the Scoville scale, which is a subjective measurement of capsaicin content. I've had sauces that advertise a 250k rating that don't seem as hot as some 50k stuff. Makers seem to artifically inflate their ratings all the time, and how the heat hits you can change a lot, too. I've never had the oppertunity to try a Dorset Naga myself, but I've heard they don't have much heat until about 20 minutes later (at which time you might have already had quite a few, popping them like candy).

Re:Not the Next Hottest

[billysara]

I eat them quite often - and they are really very, very hot - right from the first bite. Way, way hotter than Scotch Bonnet, Habanero etc.

Re:Not the Next Hottest

[Thyamine]

Actually, the Scoville scale measures the actual amount of capsaicin in a pepper. The test that Scoville himself invented was subjective. But because of the work he did on it, they named the quantitative units after him.

Re:Not the Next Hottest

[Chris Burke]

Hugh, that's pretty cool. Does that mean that if they ever develop a quantitative measure of insect stinginess, they'll name the scale after Schmidt?

Cus that's one heck of a subjective scale. You gotta love some of his descriptions. A yellowjacket sting is "Hot and smoky, almost irreverent." Irreverent?! I'd say any fuckin bug that bites or stings me is being irreverent, and I can't see how pain can relate to reverence... I can imagine you saying irreverent things as a result of pain, but to describe pain itself?

But mad props to anyone who does extremely painful things to themselves in the name of science!

Re:Not the Next Hottest

[MichaelSmith]

The hottest food my wife makes is when the chilli soaks into vegetables. On its own it just washed away but in conjunction with other food it literally sticks around and does its job.

Also I am puzzled about this assertion:

bhut jolokia chilies can be used as a food additive for troops operating in cold conditions

In my experience chili makes you feel colder because it induces perspiration, even if there might be a misleading feeling of inner warmth.

Gas! Gas! Gas!

[Guppy]

They could try weaponizing extra-spicy Chana Masala too, but that might violate the Chemical Weapons Convention.

Re:Tastes great

[MXPS]

Talk about a tasteful death..

Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[logicassasin]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kO7MlHgJLA

Hopefully that's the right link.

There's a burger in TX that uses this pepper called the Four Horsemen Burger. As of the taping of this episode of Man Vs Food, only three people had managed to finish one in 25 minutes, with an additional 5 minutes of waiting without liquids. The host of the show became number 4, though it looked like he wasn't going to get past even the first bite.

Isn't that illegal (internationally) if a weapon causes this much pain and suffering?

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[DarkKnightRadick]

I bet I could eat it in 25 minutes without any liquids for an additional 5 minutes after. BRING IT ON!

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[Cocoronixx]

Considering that Pepper spray is considered a chemical weapon and is banned under the Chemical Weapons Convention (which India signed & ratified). I'd assume that this would fall under the same ban.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_Weapons_Convention

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[Drethon]

Fine, if you don't want me to use peper spray against you I'll just shoot you in the head with a 9mm pistol. Wait a second...

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[DMUTPeregrine]

It depends on the person.

I make Naga Burgers using these peppers:

Ground beef (120g (1/4 pound) is normal.)
Mustard ("stone ground" with seeds): about 1.5 oz (3 tablespoons).
10-12 drops Blair's Ultra Death. Other hot sauce may be used, but it should contain Naga Jolokia peppers. Otherwise it's not a Naga Burger, is it?
1-3 Naga Jolokia (AKA Bhut Jolokia) peppers, minced finely.
Crushed black peppercorns.

Mix beef, mustard, and hot sauce together. Once consistently mixed, form into a patty. Press the crushed black pepper into the patty to coat the surface (like for steak a poivre). Grill or pan-broil quickly at high temperature to sear the outside & cook the inside to medium-rare. Resulting burger should be quite hot.

That burger they just put the peppers on top, not sure how much it would affect the flavour.

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[Stele]

Now that's a lot of seriously unhealthy-looking people.

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[a whoabot]

I was under the impression that ground beef had to be thoroughly cooked. Is this only true for certain cases then?

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[corbettw]

In India it's a weapon, in Texas it's a condiment. Yeah, that sounds about right. ;)

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[modecx]

The USDA recommends ground meets be held at 155F for 15 seconds. A sustained internal temperature of about 145F makes for medium rare steaks, but it's likely that they hit 155 for at least 15 seconds towards the end. Shouldn't be dangerous.

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[dfghjk]

That's quite a well thought out opinion you have there.

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[bmk67]

Which schedule of the Chemical Weapons Convention would pepper spray / capsaicin be on? Hint: It's not.

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[DMUTPeregrine]

Don't undercook it, just don't burn it. A high-temp/short duration cooking method will make a medium-rare/medium inside with a seared crust on the outside. It's the normal technique for steak a poivre, and works on ground beef too. If you're really worried, do an initial sear and then a longer duration cook with a lower heat.

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[The Mighty Buzzard]

It's not cruel and unusual if there are people out there who will pay for the experience.

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Depends on how irrationally terrified of germs you are.

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[Bigjeff5]

Article 1.5 prohibits the use of riot control agents in warfare, of which pepper spray is one. It's the catchall. Article 2.9 permits riot control agents for law enforcement.

In other words, in war they have to shoot you dead or blow you up, none of these more humane methods to bring you under control. Way to go international treaty!! ;)

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[Bigjeff5]

"Steak" is, by definition, the opposite of "ground meat".

A sustained internal temperature of about 145F makes for medium rare steaks, but it's likely that they hit 155 for at least 15 seconds towards the end.

That's false. If the internal temperature rises to 155, the steak is no longer rare. That's why reading the internal temperature gives you an accurate measure of doneness in the first place. The temperature alters the proteins, and it happens gradually as the temperature rises (this is why the color changes, as well as the texture). With beef steaks the internal contamination risk is extremely low, making rare steaks perfectly fine. With ground beef, the contamination risk is much higher, which is why the USDA recommends (and requires for restaurants) a 155 degree sustained temperature for ground beef. There is no such requirement/recommendation for beef steaks.

Rare steaks are safe because it is the outside of the steak that can be contaminated by bacteria, and a quick searing is all that is necessary to kill them. Ground beef is less safe because the contaminated outside of the steak is mixed together with the uncontaminated inside, contaminating all of it. Raw chicken meat (non-ground) is unsafe because salmonella is something the chicken picks up while it is still alive, which contaminates all of it. Same with pork, except the risk is tapeworms and other parasites, not salmonella.

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[PReDiToR]

I grow these chiles and have eaten a pretty good specimen right off the bush.

First bite is easy ... Then comes the PAIN. Don't think I'm exaggerating, these things hurt A LOT! Don't try this at home (if you can munch down a habanero without much difficulty you're still going to hurt).
Once you're through that mouth watering painful part you take another bite and you get the same damn thing again. Once you hit a quarter of the pepper eaten you plateau and can get a good munch going. The flavour of the pepper is surprisingly fruity and light. Very much like a well grown Scotch Bonnet. After 2/3rds you're screwed again, and need a good reason to carry on eating the thing.
£10 was enough reason for me =)

We cook with them a lot. If you want to taste them in a friendly way, try Mr Naga chile pickle.

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[pclminion]

The danger of undercooked ground beef is the possible presence of fecal bacteria. Fecal bacteria do not naturally occur in animal flesh. They can be introduced by sloppy processing -- mechanical gutting and stripping of meat from bone may place the meat in contact with fecal material.

If you process your own ground beef from a large hunk of meat that's been butchered properly, it's EXTREMELY unlikely that it will contain any significant amount of fecal material. But cheap-ass ground beef from the supermarket? Cook that shit till it's black.

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[Bigjeff5]

Ground meat should -always- be cooked through. The contaminated exterior of the steak has been mixed with the clean interior, which means there is potentially harmful bacteria throughout the meat.

The key to good ground meat and meats like chicken, pork, and most fish, which are all generally cooked through, is to get it just barely to the temperature of done-ness without going over. This will give you meat that is cooked through and safely wile remaining tender and juicy. Some meats you don't have a lot of wiggle room, though, so it can take practice. Chicken and pork are very often over-cooked because people just cook it until it can't not be done, which means they've cooked the hell out of it.

If you want a nice crust on your ground meat, the best technique is a quick sear in a very hot pan, and finishing in the oven, just like you would a roast. This will give you a larger margin of error than attempting to sear then lower the heat on the stove.

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[rhook]

Isn't that illegal (internationally) if a weapon causes this much pain and suffering?

Its only illegal to use chemical weapons in warfare, any other time they are fair game.

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[DMUTPeregrine]

Quite true. I wasn't clear enough on the technique needed, you are correct that the meat must be cooked through. Rare is OK (sort of) for steaks, but not so for ground beef. When in doubt, use a meat thermometer.

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[modecx]

That's false. If the internal temperature rises to 155, the steak is no longer rare

And you'll note that I'm talking medium rare, though a fine enough line, I reckon. (I personally can't stomach anything rarer than medium). Secondly, temperature is only a symptom of the action going on inside a piece of cooking meat, and is a result of the amount of water present (and it's pressure). The temperature of the food is allowed to rise at some rate proportional to the rate of water displaced, or so I imagine.

You can cook a piece of meat with high temperature so that its internals reach medium temperature quickly, without thoroughly cooking it. (Although it's likely to coast, as the TV cooks say, and become more done as it cools) You can also cook meat at much lower temperatures for much longer duration, and get meat with a greater level of done-ness. i.e. boiling, low temperature barbecuing, smoking, and even braising.

Bottom line: temperature is only one factor that influences the cooking process. As you hinted to yourself, it doesn't happen instantly as the meat (or whatever) reaches the prescribed temperature... Even if you could instantaneously inject enough kinetic energy into the material to homogeneously raise its temperature to some temperature appropriate for cooking, it's still not going to instantly cook.

I'm sure like other reactions, the reactions behind the cooking processes are driven by probability at some level, but I decided early on in my career that there was a threshold for my desire to learn about chemical engineering, and this is approaching it.

Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX

[DarkKnightRadick]

I'd actually like to grow my own hot peppers and try my hand at hybridization.

I love hot stuff and regularly make my food spicy because I love the flavor.

Cross-culinary comparison

[chronosan]

From TFA "When deployed, the grenade showers the targets with a dust so spicy that in trials subjects were blinded for hours and left with breathing problems." Still pretty mild compared to weaponized mustard.

Re:Cross-culinary comparison

[holmstar]

Mustard gas only smells like mustard. It's actually a sulfur compound.

Logical progression

[oldhack]

India had weaponized chili peppers long ago - it's called Andhra cuisine.

Funny videos

[TopSpin]

Eating raw Jolokia is a source of some mildly entertaining videos.

Re:Funny videos

[Saint Aardvark]

There's also this entertaining reading, entitled "THE DAY MY ARSE DIED". Weird thing is, the guy looks just like me when I had a beard, and I ate a phall many, many years ago. It brought back some painful memories. :-)

Countermeasures

[decipher_saint]

In this case "the goggles do something"...

More weapons?

[Eggbloke]

First supersonic manoeuvrable cruise missiles, now world's hottest chilli bombs? Why does India need all these weapons?

Re:Tastes great

[DarkKnightRadick]

That might work for preventing the spread, but the way that capsascin(sp) works is by activating all the receptors on the nerve. That's where the "heat" comes from, sensory overload.

Re:Tastes great

[The Dancing Panda]

If it gets up to a million scoville units, It's much hotter than most pepper spray. Pepper Spray is around 100,000. Mace is around 300,000.

Crisis

[NEDHead]

A pepper gap such as this cannot be tolerated. The security of our nation depends on meeting or exceeding these advances! At the very least, a space based pepper shield should be a highest priority. Pepper is Not A Game! Oh, wait, it is. My bad.

Re:Tastes great

[Raul654]

Back when I was working in New Mexico, there was a fair in Taos. One of the guys there was selling Dave's hot sauces, including their new ghost pepper variety. I bought the "temporary insanity" (57,000 scoville units according to this), and it's too hot for me except small doses. About a year later, the bottle is still mostly full.

My roommate, who has a much higher threshold for spicy food than anyone I've ever met, brought the newly unveiled ghost pepper brand (2.5 million scoville units, according to the bottle, if memory serves).

The dealer gave us a taste of it (a tiny drop on the tip of a toothpick) and my god did it burn.

The guy who sold it to us told us a few interesting things about it: (1) It instantly blisters skin on contact (2) it's very expensive to buy over the internet because it has to be shipped as a hazardous materiel. (3) Not only is it good for eating, but it works great as a caustic agent for degreasing driveways, engines, etc.

In short - ghost peppers are not something you play around with.

Re:Tastes great

[Colonel Korn]

How would you describe it in comparison to a habanero? I like the heat, but frankly don't care for the flavor of habaneros. Too...I don't know. Bitter-ish? Smoky? I much prefer jalapenos and wax pepper varieties.

Pardon the lack of tildes, it takes too much effort on a netbook.

To me habaneros taste strongly of tropical fruit and jalapenos taste slightly bitter. The "ghost pepper," at least in the dried form in which I bought it, was sort of tangy like a dried thai chili.

Re:Tastes great

[MBGMorden]

Yes but capsaicin is a fat-soluble compound. Water won't dissolve it (which is why drinking water or most liquids do nothing to stop a burning tongue), but milk, yogurt, or any other fat-containing liquid will dissolve it and wash it down the throat, nearly neutralizing the effect.

Is this needed?

[joeflies]

The article implies that 1,000,000 scoville's is nasty stuff compared to the habenero. Yet when looking at wikipedia's entry on the scoville scale, it says law enforcement pepper spray is rated at 5,000,000 to 5,300,00 million scovilles. In other words, the pepper spray currently on the market is already stronger than the bhut jolokia. So what's the news then, if they are developing a weapon with significantly less strength than what's currently on the market?

Re:Is this needed?

[WillyMF1]

That was my first thought too... also, according to Wikipedia they synthesized pure capsicum back in the 1930's. Is this just a some way to produce it cheaper by somehow distilling it out?

Re:Is this needed?

[NeoSkandranon]

Cheaper, possibly less infrastructure needed (in terms of refining capacity, etc)

Also sends some wealth out to the farming areas where these are grown.

Re:Is this needed?

[zerocool^]

Not to mention, some sauces such as Dave's Ultimate Insanity (which I had to sign a waiver to purchase), Blair's 3am, etc, are already pushing food additive properties into the multi-million scoville units.

~X

Re:Is this needed?

[Hatta]

One spritz and you're south of the border! MMmmmm, incapacitating.

Re:Is this needed?

[I cant believe its n]

... "5,000,000 to 5,300,00 million scovilles."

number fail?

No, but please note that this wide range estimate may include the extended Scoville family.

Re:Is this needed?

[mister_playboy]

(which I had to sign a waiver to purchase)

That's just for marketing purposes, not to satisfy any legal requirement.

Re:Is this needed?

[c 0xFF]

That was my first thought, too.

My second thought: this is pure psychology. Rating your pepper spray in scovilles doesn't have nearly the psychological impact as "Our police use a new pepper spray made from the hottest pepper known to man!"

Re:Is this needed?

[opticalmatrix]

When deployed, the grenade showers the targets with a dust so spicy that in trials subjects were blinded for hours and left with breathing problems.

Re:Is this needed?

[John Hasler]

> Is this just a some way to produce it cheaper by somehow distilling it out?

No, but it's natural and organic. That makes it ok to spray it in people's eyes.

Re:Is this needed?

[Bigjeff5]

The chemical is called capsaicin, capsicum is the genus for peppers.

Re:Tastes great

[Khyber]

I consider the taste reminiscent of the aftertaste of a fresh mango - slightly sweet, smoky, and then you've got that SLAM worse than a habanero.

Perhaps they would develop milk and bread

[networkconsultant]

defenses!

Not military grade...

[dclozier]

So it should be safe to use on your food. http://www.madeinnewmexico.com/647293003150.html

I can't wait to taste this in a batch of chili.

WTF, pure Capsaicin not good enough?

[meerling]

The active ingredient that makes that pepper so hot is Capsaicin, the same stuff in pepper spray.

Is it actually cheaper for them to use the local grown pepper with a variable yield than just using the pure substance with a controlled yield?

The article says they want to use it for troops in cold areas. This scares me. It heavily implies that some moron in charge has no understanding of science. Just because it tastes hot doesn't mean it'll help avoid hypothermia in the slightest. (In fact, they are more likely to succumb to hypothermia if they try to 'reduce' the 'heat' from those peppers by taking off clothes or drinking cold liquids or sucking snow.)

I'm going to throw out a guess that this isn't about the effectiveness of the pepper, but rather a homegrown movement to use a local product (in an inferior form) rather than a possibly foreign product. Sometimes the politicians in India are know to do stupid things like that.
Come to think of it, sometimes US politicians do the same thing...
(Buy American! Even if it's a piece of crap that costs three times as much as the one made in Canada, or where-ever.)

One last thing, don't forget that exposure to high doses of Capsaicin can seriously mess you up, and in some extreme cases, kill.
(For example, gassing someone who has asthma.)

Re:WTF, pure Capsaicin not good enough?

[Hatta]

Where do you think they get pure capsaicin?

Re:WTF, pure Capsaicin not good enough?

[NeoSkandranon]

It's not difficult normalize the capsaicin content in the process of extraction, therefore there is nothing inherently inferior about taking this direction. Most herbal extracts specified that the active parts are normalized to X% +- a bit. Green tea extract would be a good example.

You could perhaps argue that synthesis is cheaper or whatnot, but you must compare the abundant farmland and no shortage of people to grow them vs having an insdustrial plant and appropriately trained personnel, and so forth.

Re:WTF, pure Capsaicin not good enough?

[SecurityGuy]

This scares me. It heavily implies that some moron in charge has no understanding of science.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this doesn't exactly break new ground.

Re:WTF, pure Capsaicin not good enough?

[Bigjeff5]

Just because it tastes hot doesn't mean it'll help avoid hypothermia in the slightest.

Actually capsaicin tricks your body into thinking it is warmer than it actually is - that's why hot food makes you sweat. In fact the reason so many people in hot climates eat spicy food is because it tricks your body into thinking it is warmer, which cranks up your body's natural cooling mechanism, actually cooling you off significantly for several hours.

In cold weather, this is the exact opposite of what you want if you intend people to survive in extreme conditions. You want circulation to your extremities to essentially stop, and all heat to stay in your core. What they may be going for, however, is making their troops more capable of doing work in cold weather, which the increased circulation triggered by the capsaicin would do at the cost of losing body heat more quickly. Alcohol does the same thing, which is why drinking in cold weather makes you feel warm. Alcohol has the obvious side-effect of inebriation, however, so that's out.

It all depends on what you're after.

Sorry, but why?

[mother_reincarnated]

I must be missing something here:

1) I'm pretty sure it's a banned weapon militarily speaking.

2)Who cares which pepper the capsaicin came from!? How would this be any different than any of the current commercial pepper sprays/balls/bombs?

Re:Sorry, but why?

[blind biker]

2)Who cares which pepper the capsaicin came from!? How would this be any different than any of the current commercial pepper sprays/balls/bombs?

You don't have to be a chemical engineer to understand that the process of extracting the capsaicin costs money. In theory, you are right, it doesn't matter where it comes from. But if you can get it at high concentrations without much processing, apart from simple drying and grinding (which would be necessary preparatory steps also for the extraction of capsaicin by pentane or some such solvent), then there is no reason why not use it in that form. Besides, pure capsaicin would be too strong and too expensive to be used directly, and would have to be diluted and perhaps mixed into a support material, such as calcium carbonate or such.

Re:Sorry, but why?

[Jeng]

The hippies will be happy knowing that they are getting doused with organic free trade capsicum rather than some polluting lab created capsicum.

Re:Sorry, but why?

[JobyOne]

1) You may well be right about that. Pepper spray on a small scale isn't illegal though, but I would imagine dusting a whole city with it might run afoul of international law.

2) It grows on trees - only valid if the processing to weaponize is easy enough.

Re:Sorry, but why?

[VJ42]

2)Who cares which pepper the capsaicin came from!?

Psychology. A bomb made from "the word's hottest pepper" sounds worse than pepper spray

Re:Sorry, but why?

[Bigjeff5]

Pepper spray is illegal for use in war under the Geneva Convention, it falls under riot control substances, which are banned.

What they are talking about doing is feeding it to their soldiers in cold weather. That definitely wouldn't help their cold weather survival because it would boost circulation, increasing heat loss, so it must be about making them more capable in cold weather - essentially making them "better soldiers" in the cold at the cost of having to be more careful with hypothermia.

Re:Sorry, but why?

[tomhudson]

Poster mistakenly claimed:

Pepper spray is illegal for use in war under the Geneva Convention, it falls under riot control substances, which are banned.

What they are talking about doing is feeding it to their soldiers in cold weather. That definitely wouldn't help their cold weather survival because it would boost circulation, increasing heat loss, so it must be about making them more capable in cold weather - essentially making them "better soldiers" in the cold at the cost of having to be more careful with hypothermia.

Bzzt! Wrong... :-)

FTFA:

But scientists say the chili's primary purpose will be as a stun grenade against suspected insurgents.

According to the SIFY news site: When deployed, the grenade showers the targets with a dust so spicy that in trials subjects were blinded for hours and left with breathing problems.

What's the news here?

[Excelcia]

Pepper spray manufacturers have long been extracting pure capsaicinoids to put in their products. It doesn't matter how hot the supplying pepper is, once the capsaicinoid is extracted and purified it has a rating of from 8m-16m scoville heat units (depending on which capsaicinoid they're extracting). OC sprays and grenades dilute that down to about 5m when they use it. So whether the capsiacinoid comes from the "legendary ghost pepper" or a pimento, it doesn't really matter. There is nothing new here.

Re:What's the news here?

[WillyMF1]

Good point, and capsicum has been able to be synthesized since the 1930's... Maybe they just want the organic label?

Re:What's the news here?

[UnknowingFool]

Not to mention that the capsaicinoid levels in a pepper are highly variable due to growing regions and conditions. In some regions of India the pepper isn't as hot even though it is the same species. Add to that the amount of rain, sun, etc. all affect levels of the chemical.

Re:Tastes great

[Fast Thick Pants]

(1) It instantly blisters skin on contact
(3) Not only is it good for eating...

I'm having a hard time reconciling the first clause of fact #3 with fact #1.

Pepper spray is torturous.

[Securityemo]

...Isn't this going to be a war crime, even if it's very good at neutralizing personell for a while without killing them? Granted I've never been hit with pepper spray or similar, but from the descriptions given by police cadettes (having to have a dose used on themselves before being allowed to use it) I would probably (besides the self-defense trial issues) batter someone quite severely rather than spray them with that stuff. And that's *normal* pepper spray. It would probably be used for temporary area denial (or whatever the proper military term is), sure, but when I saw this I got quite vivid flashes of screaming women and children.

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[Khashishi]

quit being such a wuss

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[DMUTPeregrine]

I've gotten the juice from these things in my eyes (mistake cooking Naga Burgers, see above for recipe) and it burns a bit. My eye watered for almost 5 minutes, and it was rather hard to keep open. I'd not really call it torture though, it wasn't that bad. I'm also very, very used to spice, reaction will vary from person to person.

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[YouWantFriesWithThat]

really? in every instance?

so you are telling me that the cop that walked up on my friend, threw him on the ground face-first and then pepper-sprayed him when he rolled into the fetal positing clutching his shattered teeth and broken nose "gave [him] multiple opportunities for compliance" even though he never uttered a command. FYI the police review board ruled it a reasonable use of force even though the charges of resisting arrest were dropped. he was not breaking any law when approached, just 'looked like a suspect being sought'.

the point here is that if you give someone a tool it will be used, potentially in ways that are not foreseen or desired. but you don't care because you are a law enforcement cheerleader.

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[ubercam]

I've been in a bar where someone pepper-sprayed somebody else and the place cleared out in minutes. I'm asthmatic but it's mainly allergy induced, and I was coughing like crazy and I couldn't see because my eyes were stinging and watering like crazy. I wasn't even sprayed directly, it was just in the air. At first I didn't know what was happening until I got outside and my mouth felt like it was on fire.

Not fun for about 5-10 minutes until everything was more or less back to normal. After that, I couldn't imagine being sprayed directly in the face!

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[Mashiki]

I was at our local police college not too long ago. I thought that the pepper spray was deliciously spicy and that was about it, plenty of other people like myself who aren't effected by it either. My sinus is completely messed up which makes using it on me, useless.

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[Trepidity]

If used in war, it is actually a war crime, since it's a chemical weapon banned under the chemical weapon convention.

Use in domestic policing isn't covered by the Chemical Weapons Convention, so pepper spray used by your local police dept isn't a war crime.

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[Drethon]

So should that tool be a pistol instead? Not saying that instance is good but I'd rather be pepper sprayed than shot if given the choice...

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[Hurricane78]

Allright. That’s one spray of pepper for you then.

(yells) Waiter! One spray of pepper for table #31602294! And make it extra long!

(Monty Python style screaming woman from the kitchen:) Incoming!

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[bmk67]

[...] Granted I've never been hit with pepper spray or similar [...]

I have been exposed to high concentrations of the stuff when I was in the military - CS is nasty stuff. But a war crime? Seriously? I'd much rather be hit with this stuff than be shot, stabbed, or beaten. I've also been exposed to pepper spray, which is similar.

Seriously, in protective clothing, it's slightly annoying. With a gas mask, it's uncomfortable. Without any kind of protective gear, it's very unpleasant, but not completely incapacitating. You can remove yourself from exposure and the symptoms pass quickly.

I'd rather get hit with CS a hundred times than shot once.

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[Securityemo]

That's very informative.

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[bmk67]

If used in war, it is actually a war crime, since it's a chemical weapon banned under the chemical weapon convention.

Is it? I'm reading the Chemical Weapons Convention right now, and I don't see any capsaicin-based compounds listed in Schedule I, II, or III.

There are Chemical Weapons, and then there are chemicals used as weapons, and these two things are not synonymous with each other.

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[dickens]

So should that tool be a pistol instead?

Why yes, in the case gp cites, of course. If I look like a suspect being sought, the cop certainly should point his gun at me and tell me to get on the ground, whereupon I would immediately comply.

I once witnessed an assault with a 5-cell mag-lite. Later the cops both testified that they they had left it in the car, and hasn't even brought it with them. Luckily I was standing out of the way, looking terrified with my hands up.

The victim was the suspect's brother - it was mistaken identity. He *was* an asshole but didn't deserve the extra crease on his skull.

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[Trepidity]

Article I.5 bans all the use of "riot control agents" in warfare, which is usually understood to include pepper spray, tear gas, and similar chemicals.

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[bmk67]

Ah, thanks for the reference.

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Amusing but full of shit. CS gas burns like fuck in your eyes, nose, lungs, and to a good bit lesser extent any other exposed skin. Not necessarily to a point where you're totally nonfunctional but plenty to make anything that requires sight problematic for a bit. Bad sinuses only take care of the nose and make it worse on the lungs.

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[MarcQuadra]

Then I guess I've had war crimes perpetrated on me by Providence Police. I've been sprayed as an innocent bystander twice. Once when a mounted officer sprayed at a bus shelter downtown (there was a fight going on nearby, officers were pretty much spraying into the crowd). The other time was a party where the police announced themselves by spraying -up the stairs- into a crowded room, effectively turning an out-of-hand party into a dangerous encapsulated stampede.

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[Mashiki]

Amazing but you're an idiot. CS = Tear gas. OC = Pepper spray. CS is a disabling agent, OC is a defence agent. If you don't even know the difference before you post, don't bother.

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[stub667]

Amazing isn't it. India announces they are doing chemical weapons research, and nobody seems to care because it is fully organic and tastes great!

I must remember this PR tactic next time I'm looking for more cost effective ways to give permanent blindness and 3rd degree burns to crowds.

Re:Pepper spray is torturous.

[Bigjeff5]

The idea the pepper spray is torture has never made sense to me. It's just pain - it doesn't actually damage you. Yeah, it can drive you nuts, yeah your body is designed to fear extreme pain because pain=death to your body, whether that is real or not. But for example, throwing a pepper-bomb into a crowd instead of opening fire on the crowd or spraying someone in the face with pepper-spray instead of shooting them in the face - I don't see how the pepper spray makes the attacker worse off than the bullets do.

Isn't that a kinder way to subdue a person than a bullet to the brain? A bullet may be less painful, but it robs you of every future possibility in your life. There can be no greater harm done to a person than to take his life. Yet it's a-ok to shoot someone in the head under the Geneva Convention, just as long as you didn't spray them with pepper spray and cause them pain for a few hours? WTF?

They say pepper spray is inhumane, but I can't see how it is less humane than a bullet, and a bullet is the only thing allowed.

Now, if it causes intense pain then kills you, yeah, that's worse than a bullet, because if you are going to die it's better to die quickly. But not-dieing is better than both.

If you want to ban certain techniques that's fine, saying you can only use it for large crowd control or whatever, good on ya, but banning it outright seems foolish.

Re:looks like a way to....

[ryantmer]

spice up the middle peace process and surrounding warzones.

Thanks, Horatio.

Re:Tastes great

[WillDraven]

I'll take a dozen!

Re:Tastes great

[natehoy]

Then the spray has had its intended effect.

It's supposed to stop you from doing something by incapacitating you with pain and temporarily blinding you.

Whether you are rolling on the floor screaming and ripping your eyeballs out by their bloody stalks, or rolling on the ground screaming and blindly smearing mango Lassi on your eyes is really irrelevant - your hands are otherwise occupied and cannot go for your gun, and you are temporarily blind.

Plus I have to imagine something this high on the Scoville scale would actually do some burn damage before you can wash the capsacin away with your oh-so-handy dairy product. This stuff is ten times as potent as pepper spray, and by all accounts pepper spray REALLY HURTS. Something ten times as potent would probably look at your yogurt and laugh derisively as it sets in enough tissue damage to make you feel pain for a significant period of time.

Re:Tastes great

[DMUTPeregrine]

Sort of a slightly sweet/smoky mix, not really bitter at all. Very mild sourness, then spice. Aftertaste lasts for a while.

What's the point?

[Andy Dodd]

There are already well established techniques for concentrating/purifying capsaicin.

It's even done commercially for non-weapons uses, plenty of hot sauces have Scoville ratings well above that of any natural pepper - http://www.hotsauceworld.com/bl6amrepeexe.html

Pepper Spray

[TheLostSamurai]

So... they're trying to make pepper spray?

Re:Pepper Spray

[Lumpy]

No,

They are attaching blenders to the backs of troops and hooking up pumps to spray it at the enemy.

Wind changes are a bitch with this weapon.

Re:Pepper Spray

[MaskedSlacker]

To summ up your post:

It's not pepper spray, it's sprayed pepper.

Really?

Re:Pepper Spray

[Bigjeff5]

They should be using Resiniferatoxin, it's significantly more potent than capsaicin. Of course, that isn't found in peppers...

The only down-side I see is it actually doesn't cause any physical damage except to pain receptors. so anybody who has been hit with RTX poison gas recovers and comes back the next day feeling absolutely no pain. If you use it on someone, you'd better kill them or you've just created a super soldier!

SCOville units?

[davidwr]

And SCOville units are a measurement of how annoying a lawsuit is.

Re:Tastes great

[Hatta]

Not only does it taste good, but the capsaicin causes the release of endorphins. So you catch a buzz off of it as well.

Re:Tastes great

[NeoSkandranon]

I was really sad to find out that my apt doesn't get enough sun to grow these :( They are really tasty.

Re:Tastes great

[DMUTPeregrine]

It's not actually caustic. Capsicum just lowers your threshold of heat, so the nerves feel like they are in a hot area. Thus, it "burns" you. Blistering is a reaction to this. If you can use it as a caustic agent it probably has a lot of vinegar added.

from what i read in the press

[FudRucker]

is that they are making hand grenades with this ghost pepper, have they considered painball guns and instead of paint in the paintballs use powdered or jelled ghost pepper

I really like Buth Jolokia - great taste

[blind biker]

I would like to recomment Buth Jolokia as a great chili, beyond just the high capsaicin content: it's a chili with a particular, very pleasant flavor.

As for "weaponizing it", there is one problem: individual sensitivity to capsaicin is extremely variable.

Re:I really like Buth Jolokia - great taste

[omi5cron]

i recently tried some, albeit dried. definitely very hot, but strangely and pleasantly having an almost sausage type flavor. quite nice!!

Chemical Variant?

[dorpus]

Could they mean that Bhut Jolokia has some different isomers of capsaicin with differing effects from "standard" pepper sprays? I'd have looked it up on wikipedia but they're down at the moment.

Re:Chemical Variant?

[Bigjeff5]

No, it just has a higher percentage. Pure capsaicin is about 15 times hotter than these peppers. There are other similar chemicals in peppers, but capsaicin is far and away the most potent and most prevalent.

There is a chemical in the same family as capsaicin which is 3-4 times more potent, but it isn't found in peppers, it's found in a leafy Moroccan plant that uses it as a defense mechanism similar to poison ivy. They've actually been using the stuff as a permanent pain reliever in dogs with bone cancer because it destroys the pain receptors wherever it is injected.

Re:Tastes great

[Hognoxious]

Awesome tactical strategy: Drink the lhassi before teh battul, and wear googles/a gasmask.

This is stupid

[gurps_npc]

The 'hotness' of all peppers is caused by the presence of one particular chemical: Capsaicin.

The nature of the pepper is irrelevant unless you are eating the raw pepper. Pure CAPSAICIN will always have the maximum possible Scoville value of about 16,000,000.

The idea of the 'special' extra hot is moronic. Anyone can take a regular old jalapeno pepper, distill it's juices down 1,000 time and make something hotter than the Bhut Jolokia.

In fact, law enforcement grade pepper spray is at least 5x worse than even the Bhut Jolokia.

Anyone making a pepper spray looks for the CHEAPEST pepper you can find, on a dollar per Capsaicin basis, not giving a rat's a$$ about hot hot the original pepper was.

Re:This is stupid

[selven]

You can't just put the pepper in a blender and expect the capsaicin to rise to the top. Distilling is hard. If you start with something which is already over 6% capsaicin, it will be a lot easier to get to the 30-35% in pepper spray than it is from one of the milder peppers.

Technically correct, but...

[Rene S. Hollan]

Modern expressions of pungency in terms of Scoville units set pure capsaicin at either 15,000,000 or 16,000,000, and use HPLC to establish concentration of same (and related compounds). A Scoville rating is then set based on the concentration(s) measured.

So, knowing the reference standard, the measurements are actually quite objective.

Nobody, as far as I know, uses taste testers anymore.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[fm6]

Meaning that they take the fraction of capsicum and multiply by 15 million. It would make more sense just to give the fraction rather than copying the terminology of an obsolete subjective test, but I guess saying a pepper is 7% capsicum just doesn't sound as kewl as "one million scovilles!"

I'm no expert on these things (I like my food bland), but it seems to me that the fraction of capsicum is at best a rough measure of hotness. Physical and chemical interactions would have a big effect on how much capsicum actually makes it to the tongue. And indeed the Wikipedia article on the Scoville Scale mentions a couple of alternatives. Sounds like Scovilles are "universally accepted" only by marketeers and culinary masochists.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[cayenne8]

Either way...

Where can I get some of these to make some chili?!?!?

Anyone know if you can get these peppers a plants or seeds and grow them in the US?

Re:Technically correct, but...

[Rei]

What I don't get is why they're focusing on capsaicin. Just because it's well known? Resiniferatoxin activates the same receptor (TRPV1), but 3-4 orders of magnitude more.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[everett]

Yes, you can. I have a friend who got seeds off the net and has 4 fruit bearing plants in his living room. This peppers feel like being stabbed in the mouth when eaten whole and fresh.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[yashachan]

You can order them off of Amazon.

Remember to film the taste tester of your chili when they taste it, as the reaction should be rather amusing.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[rmm311]

The best kind of correct. If my memory isn't failing me.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[fm6]

My wild, uninformed guess: capsicum is cheaper. Or the fact that India grows the hottest pepper on the planet has a certain patriotic appeal...

Re:Technically correct, but...

[Bigjeff5]

I'm no expert on these things (I like my food bland), but it seems to me that the fraction of capsicum is at best a rough measure of hotness.

It varies from plant to plant, but you can get an average that is pretty accurate.

It would make more sense just to give the fraction rather than copying the terminology of an obsolete subjective test, but I guess saying a pepper is 7% capsicum just doesn't sound as kewl as "one million scovilles!"

That would actually be a hell of a lot less useful. For one thing, nobody knows how to equate 1% capsaicin to a relative hotness. What does that mean? It's like temperature - our local temperature is a fraction of sunlight absorbed by the earth, along with a boost caused by atmospheric retention factors (greenhouse effect and clouds). So why don't we say "it's nice out, 85% today"? Or "Man it was hot yesterday, must have been 88%!!" Do you see the problem? That figure is useless, to get the same granularity we have with fahrenheit or celcius we'd be using four decimal places in our percentages - that's not natural. Same thing with peppers. I don't know what "1% capsaicin" means, but I do know how hot a jalepeno is, and I do know that if a jalepeno tops out at 15,000 SHUs, and a habanero tops out at 500,000 SHUs, that a habanero is thus about 30 times hotter than a jalepeno and I definitely don't want to eat one raw.

Also, the test is obsolete, but the unit is not. The test worked to provide a base scale of heat, and it actually gave a pretty good way of differentiating exactly how hot the peppers are compared to each other. It is subjective though, so you can't go back and repeat the test with someone new and expect even similar results.

However, since they had a baseline from the original test, they could quantify the original unit size based on pure capsaicin - all you need is a pepper's SHU base number, and an average figure for the amount of capsaicin in the pepper, and scale the unit accordingly. Thus you get about 15,000,000 SHUs as a maxium with pure capsaicin.

The SHU scale also tells me that this Ghost Pepper is one hell of a hot pepper - % of capsaicin doesn't convey that to me the same way.

Sounds like Scovilles are "universally accepted" only by marketeers and culinary masochists.

I don't exactly see a massive push to market hot peppers - the people who like them search them out, and the SHU is perfect for that. Those who don't wouldn't be swayed by a marketing add.

Besides, hot foods are a rush, a bit masochistic, sure, but a hell of a lot of fun. How else can you have fun while just eating? I said JUST eating, not eating and other activities. I already know how to have that kind of fun. ;)

Re:Technically correct, but...

[Bigjeff5]

My slightly more informed guess is perhaps because RTX isn't found in peppers.

Just a wild guess though, but I would assume that since there is no RTX in peppers it would prevent them from measuring RTX in peppers.

RTX comes from a leafy Moroccan plant similar to poison-ivy. Capsaicin is the primary TRPV1 antagonist found in peppers (the others found in peppers are nowhere near as potent or plentiful), thus capsaicin is the chemical to measure. Can't use it as a measure if it isn't there. Duh.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[Bigjeff5]

Or the fact that RTX has never been found in a pepper. It comes from a Moroccan plant similar to poison ivy.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[Kismet]

A question from the ignorant:

I always thought of the stuff in peppers as highly acidic.

Capsaicin is an "alkaloid," whatever that is. Does it mean that peppers are caustic and not acidic?

Re:Technically correct, but...

[Rene S. Hollan]

Yes, "the best kind of correct," but misleading, because correctness isn't the point of interest here. The useful bit of information is that early subjective experiences fixed a scale that can be correlated with objective measurements.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[Garble Snarky]

I find it odd that you contrast "temperature percentage" with celsius. I know that in my city right now it is 18% of the way between water freezing and water boiling. How do I know this? because Google tells me that it is 18 degrees celsius at the moment. Are you really trying to argue that our units of temperature are not entirely arbitrary?

Accordingly, celsius gives the exact same granularity as integer percentages do. We wouldn't need 4 decimal places for capsaicin fraction, we'd just need 2 significant digits. 15000 scovilles is closer to 0% than 1%, but that is why we write .094%. Better yet, 938 ppm.

Of course it's easier to interpret a measurement scale that you're accustomed to. Guess what? I have no idea how many scovilles are in a jalapeno. That makes scovilles as meaningless to me as capsaicin fraction. Having no intuitive understanding of either system, I'd just prefer percentage or ppm.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[russotto]

Capsaicin is the primary TRPV1 antagonist found in peppers

Agonist. Definitely agonist, not antagonist.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[reverseengineer]

A few things are going on chemically with hot peppers. Capsaicin is an alkaloid, which is just a term for a nitrogen-containing naturally produced base (caffeine would be another example; something like sodium hydroxide would be a non-alkaloid base). Capsaicin is not a particularly strong base, and is not very water soluble, behaving more like a wax. This is why pure water is not regarded as particularly effective in relieving the pain sensation produced by capsaicin. Peppers as a whole are generally very mildly acidic, with notable quanitities of weak acids like ascorbic acid (vitamin C). However, they are generally not acidic enough to resist spoilage, so preserved forms of chiles usually involve vinegar, which might be the acidity you taste in a hot sauce or canned chile.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[budgenator]

Well if you want to see what eating one is like this guy eats a naga morich and a Bhut Jolokia, you can actually see him getting high off the endorphins.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[fm6]

That would actually be a hell of a lot less useful. For one thing, nobody knows how to equate 1% capsaicin to a relative hotness.

Huh? If percentages are useless, than how are Scoville Units any better? Both express the fraction of capsicum. Percentages are just bigger.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[fm6]

I did say "cheaper".

Re:Technically correct, but...

[Rei]

My slightly more informed guess is perhaps because RTX isn't found in peppers.

Just a wild guess though, but I would assume that since there is no RTX in peppers it would prevent them from measuring RTX in peppers.

Why do people keep acting as though A) I said it's found in peppers, and B) that the Indian government for some reason must use peppers as a source for their chemical warfare agents? I don't get it.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[rmm311]

That or I was quoting Futurama.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[RichiH]

Where can I buy that stuff?

Re:Technically correct, but...

[vegiVamp]

Yeah, a bowl of chips makes most shooters more fun.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[bytethese]

To B: Perhaps it's because the peppers are in India as opposed to the plant that contains RTX being located in another country?

Re:Technically correct, but...

[nottheusualsuspect]

Would you rather he had used a car analogy?

Re:Technically correct, but...

[Rei]

I have a banana tree and live in Iowa. So?

Re:Technically correct, but...

[Garble Snarky]

I wish my car's speedometer had a "percentage of light speed" mode

Re:Technically correct, but...

[Rene S. Hollan]

I suppose because 3% (or so) for a Red Savina habanero cultivar does not seem like much, but 577000 Scovilles does.

Then again, 5000 Scovilles seems like a lot for a jalapeno but really isn't.

Of course, it's relative to experience. For someone not used to anything spicy, a jalapeno probably strikes them as "very hot", and the figure of 5000 Scovilles rather reinforces that idea.

The range of hotness does seem to warrant some six orders of magnitude in expressing it, so a range of 0 to 16 million is not unreasonable. If taste response (like hearing) were logarithmic, we'd have something like "decilogScovilles" much akin to decibels and a range of something like 0 to 72. But, it isn't.

Re:Technically correct, but...

[fm6]

Of course, it's relative to experience.

No kidding. In Mexico, children buy and consume chili powder as a treat. The scovilian tolerance that requires boggles the mind!

Re:Technically correct, but...

[bytethese]

Is India looking to weaponize your bananas? If not, your point?

Re:Technically correct, but...

[Rei]

Isn't it obvious? Why does a plant have to already be grown in a region in order to use it? The US uses vast amounts of rubber, almost none of it grown in the US.

If you insist on growing it domestically, spurges should grow superbly in Rajasthan (western India) outdoors, and do reasonably well in many other parts of the country. And that's just outdoors; since you only need tiny amounts of the compound for a huge effect, it could be grown with shelter anywhere in the country.

Pakistan and China

[jamrock]

Why does India need all these weapons?

Three words: Pakistan and China. They've been to war several times with the former, and have had bloody border clashes with the latter. India has also blamed Pakistan for terrorist violence over Kashmir, among other things, including the bloody attack on the Grand Taj Mahal Hotel in Mumbai.

It's worse now that Pakistan has nukes, but realistically Pakistan is not a viable military rival for her much larger and far more populous neighbor. The scenario that keeps me up at night is the growing rivalry between the world's two most populous countries, India and China. As China's economy booms and she becomes more assertive on the global stage, both nations will find themselves on a collision course in a competition for resources, and it's interesting to see how it will play out in the coming decades, particularly from a political standpoint, considering that it's a contest between the world's largest democracy and an authoritarian giant (my money is on India).

I'm not Indian, by the way, and I'd be very interested in hearing the viewpoints of any Indian and Chinese Slashdot readers. In your opinions, will the 21st Century see the development of a bi-polar world all over again, with competition and rivalry between two economic powerhouses who espouse radically different political philosophies?

Re:Pakistan and China

[blackgod]

Yes, you are right! India's both strength and weakness lies in Democracy. That is the reason behind India's moderate growth compared to China's aggressive.

In the backdrop of Google vs China, we can't even imagine Google vs India. Here in India, you have freedom to express what you think. Here the limitation is you can't do as you wish freely due to practical issues like massive population, corrupted politicians (not political system) and bureaucrats and last but not least people's expectation that some one will/should come and solve our problem like a super man. China tackles all the above issues with one single weapon called Dictatorship in the name of Communism. So their pace may be better than India **as of now**.

But it is true that growth of a nation is **not** 100m race, it is marathon - you need consistent performance and more resilience. After all Country is nothing but the people. What the govt. is going to achieve by isolating its people from the main stream of world? In Tamil, there is a saying - "What you are going to achieve by buying painting at the cost of your eyes?"

I am afraid that I may be biased towards India, since I am an Indian. But I take US as dream role model for our country's political system. The democracy in US is the one which has driven it so far. We are lucky to have such a democracy in India. In US, the people's real patriotism lies in being true to the social setup (basically adhering to the rules and regulation of the society). But it is unfortunate that here in India patriotism is judged on your emotional show case than how sincere you are towards country's growth.

Re:Pakistan and China

[jamrock]

Thank you for your reply, and in fact I agree 100% that India will prevail because of democracy. As Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except of course for all the others." In my opinion, the most basic political right is freedom of expression, and so long as India allows it and China does not, the full potential of the Chinese people will not be met. The Right To Information Act of 2005 is another great step forward by India, and I believe it to be an example to most other nations.

It is a remarkable coincidence that when I first read this Slashdot thread, the quote at the bottom of the page was by Harry Truman: "If you have a government that is truly efficient, you have a dictatorship." Pure efficiency is not possible without trampling on the freedom of citizens. What I find interesting about China is the fact that their long history has been so tainted by chaos, disorder, foreign interference and exploitation, and unimaginable human suffering, that it is not a mystery why there is such a hunger for order, which is what the Communist Party purports to provide, and how they came to power in the first instance. It is my opinion that preserving social order is the foremost concern of the Chinese Communist Party, human rights be damned. But as Benjamin Franklin famously said, "Those who would trade security for liberty deserve neither".

Chinese society has historically changed so incredibly slowly that the Information Age must seem like a nightmare to the Communists. The sense I get is that the Communists feel that the forces of history are against them, and that inevitably they will fade into memory. Since the passing of Mao Zedong, they have seemed to be searching for a way to preserve order within Chinese society while at the same time positioning China to step onto the global stage, while still remaining Chinese. Their booming economy and reputation as "factory to the world" may be taken for granted now, but I am old enough to remember when their fledgling experiments with capitalism seemed so out of character that the world was stunned by it.

The world was rightfully horrified by the atrocities in Tienanmen Square, but what struck me at the time was that people were surprised by the brutal reaction of the authorities. I was most surprised by the fact that the demonstrators were allowed to gather in the first place, and remain there for three days. I remember talking with friends as the demonstrations entered the second day, and they were all gleeful that change was coming to China. I was almost in tears and practically pleading with the TV for them to leave: "You've made your point, and the authorities are signalling that they've heard you by allowing this gathering, now go, for the love of God!" My friends thought I was crazy because I predicted that it would end in tragedy and bloodshed.

China has undergone what is for them dramatic change in the last thirty years, and continues to change. It's just that the rate of change isn't enough by the standards of the rest of the planet in this day and age. One thing that people ignorant of Chinese history should keep in mind is that China will change at her own pace, and to hell with what everyone else thinks. But like evolution, political change in China comes so slowly that it seems unnoticeable until it is put into context. I personally believe that China will transition to democracy sometime in this century, but by the time they do India will be a superpower.

Re:Pakistan and China

[ItsJustAPseudonym]

"But it is unfortunate that here in India patriotism is judged on your emotional show case than how sincere you are towards country's growth."

Actually, we've got that problem in the States, too. At least for the politicians.

Re:Pakistan and China

[John Hasler]

> "But it is unfortunate that here in India patriotism is judged on your
> emotional show"

That pretty much defines patriotism.

Re:Pakistan and China

[blackgod]

may be... but they are major in India :-)

Re:Tastes great

[Rene S. Hollan]

ER, IIRC, pepper spray is about 10% OC, or around 1.6 million.

Re:Tastes great

[phoenixwade]

(1) It instantly blisters skin on contact
(3) Not only is it good for eating...

I'm having a hard time reconciling the first clause of fact #3 with fact #1.

That's because "Fact" 1 isn't.
I've been handling all sorts of hot peppers for many years, and the particularly hot ones are very capable of producing a burning sensation on the skin just like in your mouth. And Rubbing your eyes inadvertently will ruin your evening, there is no doubt. But blistering? I sup[pose it could happen if you had an allergic reaction, but that's not even remotely going to be a common thing.

It's been my experience that dealers and vendors are really in to hyping the dangers of the sauces that are typically named "Loco", Death" and "Devil" based scary named variations.. And well they should, it's really good for business, and selling product is what they do.

Re:Tastes great

[Lumpy]

The guy who sold it to us told us a few interesting things about it: (1) It instantly blisters skin on contact (2) it's very expensive to buy over the internet because it has to be shipped as a hazardous materiel. (3) Not only is it good for eating, but it works great as a caustic agent for degreasing driveways, engines, etc.

the guy who sold it was ragingly full of shit.

I have let it sit on my skin for 20 minutes to prove it's a fake claim... Won $100.00 in the office after that and eating a taco with it on it. (they dont understand that sour cream really kills it's burn)

It's not acid, it dont burn the skin and is worthless for degreasing driveways.

Re:Tastes great

[sunking2]

You mean like saying it has to be shipped as a hazardous material? :) Hey, maybe he got 1 out of 3 right.

Re:Tastes great

[natehoy]

How is drinking yogurt going to help? The only way yogurt dissolves capsacin is due to the fats in it, and that requires direct contact between the yogurt and the capsacin.

Smear the lhassi all over your body before the battle, and you might be better off. Leave it on for a few hours, and your trenchmates will need the gas masks.

Call me juvenile ...

[winomonkey]

FTFA:

In fact, Indian farmers say Bhut paste can be used for everything from sauces to tear gas. And there in lies the military's interest.

The Indian military is interested in the many uses of Bhut paste? I ... I don't know how to respond to this in a mature manner.

Re:Call me juvenile ...

[indraneil]

The word "bhut" means ghost in Assam, which is where the pepper is grown.

Re:Call me juvenile ...

[VorlonFog]

Don't laugh, the term's already been used : http://www.buttpaste.com/BLButtPaste.php

I saw that movie...

[Antiocheian]

I saw the "Spices" movie. It was terrible. A hot chick constantly praising "Spices, oh thank you Spices".

Total bullshit.

Capsaicin is not the only part to it

[gwolf]

There are some peppers (i.e. what we in Mexico call pimiento morrón -- Paprika or sweet pepper, depending on whom you ask) that have _very_ high capsaicin levels, but is completely non-hot, at least to our standards (I know that even Argentinians use it for salads, and you can't get any more non-spicy than Argentinians ;-) ).

Re:Capsaicin is not the only part to it

[Bigjeff5]

Pimiento Morron is simply roasted sweet bell pepper, is it not?

Bell peppers have virtually no capsaicin (though they are in the capsicum family and do have trace amounts of capsaicin).

Just to put this in perspective:

[Hurricane78]

Pure Capsaicin is at 16 million Scoville.
So you might say that 1/16th of that thing is pure Capsaicin.

Re:Just to put this in perspective:

[Red Flayer]

Pure Capsaicin is at 16 million Scoville.
So you might say that 1/16th of that thing is pure Capsaicin.

Sure, but you might also say that 15/16th of that thing is 0% capsaicin. Not sure if that helps with perspective :)

Re:Tastes great

[DarkKnightRadick]

Really? All the cooks and cooking shows I've ever seen that deal with hot peppers say it's a myth. Looks as if I'm going to have to write to the Mythbusters.

Re:Tastes great

[DeadCatX2]

Capsaicin is also alkaline, so if you consume something acidic, like orange juice, we get base + acid = salt.

The more interesting question for pepperheads

[Opportunist]

Does that mean I cannot import them anymore since I would have to ask the EU whether it's ok for me to import that military hardware, and they're routinely rubberstamping such requests with "no"?

Re:The more interesting question for pepperheads

[Bigjeff5]

No, because it has a plethora of other uses - like in food.

However, were you to go to war and try to use it as a pepper spray, you'd be committing war crimes. Geneva Conventions says it's a-ok to use it on your own citizens, just don't use it on someone else's citizens or military.

That's fucked up.

Re:Tastes great

[Anonymous Coward]

If your apt doesn't get enough sun, you need to use "apt -get more-sunshine". (You might have to change your sources to the beta-global-warming source repository first).

Re:Tastes great

[snspdaarf]

I had a friend in college who worked at Pizza Hut. One day he got distracted after making a pizza with jalapenos, and took a leak without washing his hands. Fortunately, there were few customers in the store at the time, as he was soon straddling the sink washing himself off. To this day, he washes his hands before going to to john, and if anyone asks why he replies, "Because I can remember everywhere my dick's been."

Re:Pepper Abuse

[Jesus_666]

That fetish might be less popular than you think it is.

Re:Tastes great

[hufman]

Mystbusters already proved that milk cures the burn. They didn't say why, I believe, but they still did it. http://mythbustersresults.com/episode91

...Good thing they're mostly vegetarian....

[Bob_Who]

...I wouldn't want them trying to restaurant-ize the casualties.

Re:Tastes great

[cayenne8]

For every day use, I prefer Serrano chiles.

Trouble with jalapenos...somewhere along the line someone thought it a good idea to breed the heat right out of them. So, when you go to the grocery store, you have no idea what heat level the damned things are.

They've not done that to serranos as far as I know, and they seem to have a nice 'crisp' taste to them. I put them in pretty much ALL of my salsas.

I've had good luck lately with raw diced serranos, mixed with roasted peeled and chopped poblano chiles in my green salsas of late.

Re:Tastes great

[cayenne8]

"Capsaicin is also alkaline, so if you consume something acidic, like orange juice, we get base + acid = salt."

I believe alcohol will also help kill the heat....hence, eating chile's and shooting tequila!!

Re:Tastes great

[Yold]

In all seriousness, does drinking beer impact dissolution?

Re:Tastes great

[MaskedSlacker]

Not according to the Great Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoville_scale#List_of_Scoville_ratings

Re:Tastes great

[Jarjarthejedi]

I think the GP's point was that spraying this kind of stuff is no different than any other gas attack, and there's already defense against those so rather than use some silly thing like yogurt just use a standard anti-gas measure like a gas mask and covering exposed areas.

Re:Tastes great

[MaskedSlacker]

Been there, done that.

overrated

[K10W]

I've always considered the heat of nagas very overrated myself. I eat habaneros and bonnets most days and sometimes nagas although they cost more they are better flavour IMO. As for the heat they aren't what everyone makes out, most people I know who care for tasty heat are shocked they are less hot that they expect when they try them. Here in the UK I only buy my chilli from independent middle eastern and asian stores since nagas and habaneros are cheaper and they do more chilli varieties in my local ones and compared to the rubbish tesco sell are much much hotter. I've tried packets and packets of the dorset naga variety tesco sell and they are much weaker then decent bonnets and cost way over the odds at nearly £1 for 2 or 3 (I can get about 12 or so for that price but hotter nicer flavour ones). Now pure capsaicin is another matter. A friend of mine I studied with who also loves hot food tried some that was in the lab and his reaction convinced me it was a bad.......... very bad........... idea. He only tried the most miniscule dot your could imagine but it impressed him so much I doubt he'd do it again. Now that is something I'd love to see in food ........ just not mine hehehehe.

Re:overrated

[Bigjeff5]

Pepper heat depends a lot on how they are grown as well, if your Naga supplier is cultivating them for flavor then it wouldn't be hard to significantly reduce the heat. Actually if you over-water them (but not enough to kill them) you can cut the heat in any pepper by a significant fraction. On the other hand, if you give peppers just barely enough water to grow you can get some extreme heat out of them.

Personally I hate the flavor of habeneros, I think it ruins any dish you put them in unless you are very clever with the flavors. The taste is so overpowering it just dominates, and it doesn't fit with so many dishes you'd ordinarily use chillis for.

Now goat peppers, those are some tasty peppers.

Even nastier than the pepper!

[DominatorDan]

This is what we should be weaponizing. Its much nastier and is also a carcinogen! Good times.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphorbia#Toxicity (sorry, html tags don't seem to work for creating hyperlink....)

Re:Tastes great

[MichaelSmith]

I reckon it wouldn't work as well on somebody accustomed to hot food. My brother in law, who is Malaysian, remarked favorably on the "pepper spray" coming off his neighbors barbecue, while I coughed my lungs out.

Over one million?

[Tetsujin]

Guys, I have to offer you this piece of advice. As someone who's been down this road before.

At this point, you should smash your scouter. Stop relying on machines to measure these things, the numbers are only going to psyche you out.

Manufacturing

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

Pepper spray is made by extracting the capsaicin from hot peppers. Hotter peppers means more efficient manufacturing process.

Re:Tastes great

[Bigjeff5]

I sure hope so, something needs to replace the habenero for serious heat, because the habanero tastes like crap!

Re:Tastes great

[LowlyWorm]

Probably, capsaicin is an organic molecule. It would tend to be more soluble in organic solvents such as the oils in fat than water. Water is inorganic so capsaicin is less soluble in it. Ethanol is an organic solvent and dissolves many organic compounds. I would think beer would work better than milk or yogurt.

Re:Tastes great

[Bigjeff5]

Alcohol works too, but it has to be relatively high concentration. Beer won't cut it, but tequila will. :)

Or, combine the effect with some creme based liqueur. Mmmmm... Bailey's Irish Creme.

Re:Tastes great

[Bigjeff5]

Obviously all the cooks and cooking shows you've ever seen never actually tried it, because everybody who actually likes hot peppers knows about it.

Drinks high in alcohol (not beer or wine) also work, because capsaicin dissolves nicely in alcohol.

Very acidic foods work as well, because capsaicin is an alkaline. Bite into a lemon when you feel the burn if you want to try this solution.

Starch is the weakest but also most common remedy, and it serves to soften the heat more than eliminate it.

If you'll notice, almost all communities that make very spicy dishes serve them with milk products, lots of starches, and acidic sauces or side dishes. They usually have some potent alcohol to go along with it. Mexican food is a perfect example, but Thai and Indian foods follow the pattern just as well.

Re:Tastes great

[Bigjeff5]

TRPV1 antagonists (of which capsaicin is one) can cause rashes and inflamation on the skin, but it takes a very high concentration. The only way I could see getting a blister is from a serious allergic reaction.

Re:Tastes great

[stonewallred]

I crush them lightly in a ziplock bag and then put them into olive oil along with crushed garlic and a couple of other special ingredients to make my mouth water, eye tearing hot sauce for wings and ribs. I have found that one pepper, left in a quart of olive oil is more than enough to make the usual "I am am not bothered by hot peppers" start crying when liberally dousing their wings with it. But with a small amount it gives the sauce a hotness and flavor that is not found elsewhere.

Re:Tastes great

[stonewallred]

I live around a bunch of latinos, so I buy my peppers where they buy theirs. The jalapenos are usually not as large or as "pretty" as the ones in the local grocery store, nor as consistently sized. But they are hotter and have flavor beyond hot.

Re:Tastes great

[stonewallred]

And you dear /. sir, got given a whole big handful of lies by a hip huckster out to do as he did. Part you and your money right on the spot. The only thing that might have been true is the cleaning, and if it is,there are thousands of things that clean better and cheaper. But no blisters, not expensive and doubt it is better than any common degreaser for cleaning.

Re:Tastes great

[stonewallred]

Lol, was making cream cheese stuffed, bacon wrapped jalapenos on day to cook on the grill. Got them assembled and stuck them in the refrigerator. Took a shower and then put my contacts in. Been wearing contacts since I was 11, and am 41, so that is like a ten second job. Had just got the second one in when the pain started. Never made that mistake again, latex gloves when handling or cooking with chilies.

7 pot

[ladoga]

Seven pot from Trinidad & Tobago is also worth trying. It has the greatest taste with about the same heat levels as the hyped Bih Jolokia/Bhut Jolokia/Naga Morich.

Ones I've grown here at home have - when measured by my pain receptors - been clearly hotter than Nagas from the grocery store. Your mileage may vary as the growing conditions have considerable impact on pungency. IIRC when Indians were evaluating Bih Jolokias (probably for the reason stated in the topic) it was noted that the ones harvested from drier areas rated only half as high SHUs as ones collected from more humid sites.

I'm not saying that Bih Jolokia is no good. It is. I actually use it as powder to spice my food almost every day (to be honest simply because I havent got enough Seven pot), but there are also other delicious and ridicilously hot chillies.

the same idiotic logic is used against tasers

[circletimessquare]

tasers are potentially lethal, pepper spray is very painful...

so we should go back to good old guns?

its easy to argue against pepper spray or the taser when their negative effects are examined in a vacuum, but in reality, the only context that matters, they are used as a LESS lethal choice

its kind of like griping about the problems of government controlling healthcare, which are real problems. but as if the alternative, corporate controlled healthcare, is any better!

people need to stop basing their opinions on the negatives of certain choices, without considering the negatives of your other choices, which can be even worse

its some sort horrible logic fail, but its incredibly common in the formation of people's opinions

Re:Tastes great

[budgenator]

You have to be careful here, most countries would consider the use of this a chemical attack and respond, perhaps in kind. If your shooting capsicum, and the "bad guys" shoot a nuke or VX nerves back, guess who is going to wish they never started.

Re:Tastes great

[DeathElk]

That was the funniest thing I have ever seen on Slashdot... wait maybe that one about the dolphin overlord... no this is WAY funnier.

Why not just use capsaicin?

[dpbsmith]

At least one pepper sauce company has been offering pure capsaicin since 2006. It seems like more of a publicity stunt than a product, but it's not fabulously expensive. Another company offers a 7,000,000 Scoville unit for $90 an ounce. Capsaicin was synthesized in 1930. I don't know whether it's cheaper to synthesize it or purify it from natural sources, but either way it doesn't seem as if military uses would depend on finding any particularly hot natural peppers.

Re:Tastes great

[domatic]

Not really. The only real use for a hot sauce of that magnitude is when you want to up the amount of heat in a dish without otherwise affecting the flavor. Take chili. You can hot it up a bit with Tabasco Sauce but you'll also add quite a bit of vinegary twang. Not that there is anything wrong with that necessarily but it may not be a flavor you want in your chili. On the other hand, if you use a small amount of one these "XXX" sauces then your chili gets hotter but the other flavors aren't masked as much.

Re:Tastes great

[snowgirl]

If you'll notice, almost all communities that make very spicy dishes serve them with milk products, lots of starches, and acidic sauces or side dishes. They usually have some potent alcohol to go along with it. Mexican food is a perfect example, but Thai and Indian foods follow the pattern just as well.

Let's ask the Chile Pepper Institute: http://www.chilepepperinstitute.org/frequently_asked_questions.php

Q. How do you get the burning to stop?

A. The best way to ease the burning sensation is to drink milk, or eat any dairy product.A substance found in dairy products known as casein helps to disrupt the burning sensation. If you get the oil on your skin you may want to rub it with rubbing alcohol first then soak in milk, this seems to alleviate the burning. If you get capsaicinoids in your eyes the only thing you can do is repeatedly rinse with water.

It's also best to use latex gloves when dealing with them... i.e. cleaning them, cutting them up, preparing them, etc.

New Mexicans seem to be a different breed of chile consumer... but then, from our best understandings, that's the area where they seem to have originated...

Re:Tastes great

[snowgirl]

OMG... no. It does not DESTROY the pain sensor. It binds to it. Receptors--all of them--can be overwhelmed though. This is why "the second pepper isn't as hot". The pain receptors are activated, and the brain starts ignoring a certain level of input from them.

If capsaicin worked the way you describe it, House would have injected it into his leg and killed off all the pain receptors long ago.

Re:Tastes great

[dbIII]

Due to the effect on nerves it's also used to cure urinary incontinence. Squirt enough chilli oil into someone's bladder and they will insist that they are cured.

Re:Tastes great

[DMUTPeregrine]

Thanks for the tip, I'll have to try that.

Re:Tastes great

[DMUTPeregrine]

That's contrary to what I know: Capsaicin binds to the TRPV1 receptor, which has a primary function of activating due to heat (>43C according to Wikipedia). The same receptor is present on some (but not all) pain nerves. The "second pepper isn't as hot" desensitization effect is due not to damage but to depletion of calcium used to transmit the signals from the affected nerves. You haven't killed anything off, just used up the fuel they use to signal the brain.
It's also not a permanent pain reliever, it is temporary. It can last longer than other methods though. AFAICT it can last for a few weeks.

Missing the point

[tanveer1979]

Its not really being designed as a chemical weapon on the battlefield, but more of an anti terrorist weapon where there can be hostage crisis etc.,
For example, to flush out people holed up in caves etc.,
Traditionally, you would lob a grenade and kill everyone, hostages included.
with a pepper grenade, you would just get everyone on their knees with eyes and lungs burning. So without loss of life, lots of hostage situations can be defused.
Its being though of an alternative to tear gas, which is not really very effective in many cases.

Re:Tastes great

[RichiH]

(1) It instantly blisters skin on contact

But not the skin on your tongue?

(2) it's very expensive to buy over the internet because it has to be shipped as a hazardous materiel.

Well, duh. It _is_ dangerous.

(3) Not only is it good for eating, but it works great as a caustic agent for degreasing driveways, engines, etc.

B-b-b-bullshit. Oil/grease is a solvent for capsicum, not the other way round.

For what it's worth, I have a sauce that is rated at 1.5 million Scoville, but I tend to use it sparingly.

Re:Tastes great

[DarkKnightRadick]

Thanks, though I think they used whole milk and not the watered down crap I'm forced to drink.