Slashdot Mirror
China Rejects US Piracy Claims As "Groundless"
eldavojohn writes "Earlier this month, a United States piracy list fingered China, Russia, and Canada as the first, second and third worst governments (respectively) for enforcing copyright policy in the world. China's Foreign Ministry has rejected these claims as 'groundless' just before meeting with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner on Monday and Tuesday in Beijing to address copyright policy. The official Chinese statement read, 'The involved US Congress members should respect the fact and stop making groundless accusations against China.' The plan nevertheless remains to use the visit to pressure China into overhauling its failed attempts to curb piracy, since software piracy in China appears to be a social norm, with the Chinese government possibly even leading by example."
Software piracy in china appear to be social norm, along with the rest of the world.
I hope they do start to enforce copyright more on software. It is likely to steer them more towards FOSS solutions and that will ultimately benefit them and everyone else, too.
"Earlier this month, a United States piracy list fingered China, Russia and Canada as the first, second and third worst governments (respectively) for enforcing copyright policy in the world. China's Foreign Ministry has rejected these claims as 'groundless' just before meeting with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner on Monday and Tuesday in Beijing to address copyright policy. The official Chinese statement read, 'The involved US Congress members should respect the fact and stop making groundless accusations against China.' The plan nevertheless remains to use the visit to pressure China into overhauling their failed attempts to curb piracy since software piracy in China appears to be a social norm with the Chinese government possibly even leading by example."
Then what exactly is made during the third or "ghost" shift in China, not at the request of any outside company?
Another thing of note, explain all the pirated movies and software that gets sold in that country (or is that always "Not from our family" or from someone out of favor?).
The only thing that's groundless is China's posturing.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Yeah, I guess all the pirate VCDs and DVDs at the flea markets all over California aren't full of professionally-pressed pirate video copies from China? Oh wait, yes they are. In fact, they're all over eBay and Amazon, too. China isn't just "failing to crack down on copyright piracy" (per the RTFA), they have institutionalized copyright infringement for profit all over their country and it's probably a substantial slice of their GNP. China is doing about as much to stop "piracy" as they are to stop anything else they're doing. For example, executing their head of food safety over taking bribes to ignore unsafe food for export instead of actually doing something to prevent the next guy from doing the same thing.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Then what exactly is made during the third or "ghost" shift in China, not at the request of any outside company?
Another thing of note, explain all the pirated movies and software that gets sold in that country (or is that always "Not from our family" or from someone out of favor?).
The only thing that's groundless is China's posturing.
Yeah, and what exactly are Americans downloading from The Pirate Bay or LimeWire? Linux ISOs? Maybe the US should be on that list, too. Oh, and all the Americans dealing drugs? Clearly the US is doing nothing to stop them.
Fun fact: People break laws. It's hardly something to blame either government for (and whether or not the laws are just is a whole different question entirely).
Want a high quality FOSS RTS game? Try Warzone 2100!
Well considering a government is supposed to represent its people, I'd say the Chinese government is one of the best governments with respects to copyright.
They might not respect the US 'lock up everything for the next 70+ years' policy but to that I say well done.
Not even the Great Firewall of China can stop piracy. I once read that one of the Pirate Bay's top user countries is China despite the site being blocked.
So if not even the Great Firewall of China can stop piracy, then exactly what can? Shouldn't we just face the facts and realize that trying to stop noncommercial copying is impossible and just legalize it already? Copyright law was meant to stop commercial infringement, not noncommercial copying. Enough already.
You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
I call BS as there must be one African country that is worse than Canada in enforcing copyright law.
Yeah, and what exactly are Americans downloading from The Pirate Bay or LimeWire? Linux ISOs? Maybe the US should be on that list, too. Oh, and all the Americans dealing drugs? Clearly the US is doing nothing to stop them.
What you're missing as your knee jerks (oh noes we're being prejudiced against the chinese! won't someone think of the chinese babies?) is that the US doesn't claim otherwise. For example, the CIA World Fact Book clearly shows the US as a major importer, exporter, and trafficker of drugs. China claims that our statements about copyright infringement are overblown, while everybody knows that the majority of professionally-pressed pirate media (i.e. piracy for profit) comes out of China, and is made on the same assembly lines as the real thing, but typically with inferior materials and without quality control. Everybody knows that the US is a major player in the illegal drugs market, but the US doesn't deny it, and the hypocrisy is the difference here.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Doe the CIA World Fact Book clearly show that the CIA and the US government were complicit in drug running networks, including heroin and cocaine, for decades? (And they likely still are.) I seem to recall the US does deny that, so your argument is moot because they are as hypocritical on the score
'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
Canada is up to #3 Woohoo!
Warner Music Canada, Sony BMG Music Canada, EMI Music Canada, and Universal Music Canada are responsible for (up to) 6 billion worth of infringement themselves. Just a bit more than the 710 million claimed.
http://www.thestar.com/business/article/735096--geist-record-industry-faces-liability-over-infringement
Then again, its probably statutory damages vs. actual losses.
Still, I'm proud to be on the list again. Thanks!
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
Doe the CIA World Fact Book clearly show that the CIA and the US government were complicit in drug running networks, including heroin and cocaine, for decades? (And they likely still are.) I seem to recall the US does deny that, so your argument is moot because they are as hypocritical on the score
So, your argument is that since the USA denies specific activities but admits the general premise, they're as hypocritical as China, which denies the premise entirely? Logic fail. Please try again. I'm no US-gov't lover, trust me. I fear my government more than anything else, and those who want to claim it is made up of citizens have missed the point entirely; the citizens don't have the power, and all government bigger than "the chief" has a very us-and-them approach to control.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
What you're missing as your knee jerks (oh noes we're being prejudiced against the chinese! won't someone think of the chinese babies?) is that the US doesn't claim otherwise.
I certainly don't see the US on the list of worst governments for enforcing copyright law.
China claims that our statements about copyright infringement are overblown, while everybody knows that the majority of professionally-pressed pirate media (i.e. piracy for profit) comes out of China
You answer that question in the next verb clause of your sentence. Maybe the fact that more pirated media is made in China has to do with the fact that everything is made in China? The majority of copyright infringement happens on Windows, too; clearly that means it's Microsoft's fault.
Want a high quality FOSS RTS game? Try Warzone 2100!
Notice that it is also a list of the economies that are doing relatively well.
The US position is understandable as is the position of the rest of the world.
The US is gearing itself more and more to an IP economy, sell knowledge/ideas rather then the products themselves. Apple thinks of the iPod and gets paid for this idea while the actual production and shipping can be done somewhere else. The US is not involved at all in a iPod sold in Holland. So how does Apple ensure it gets paid if not with the enforcement of the concept of IP that tells people you can't just copy their design?
With software and media content, who cares who made it originally? Despite claims by MS that copies of its software have malware pre-installed (they must be thinking of Sony's PC, that now come with a paid for feature to get a clean install) the fact is that I can save myself a lot of money by just heading over to the piratebay for my game PC. (And yes I do still buy games, just not the OS and no I don't care about a raid because I got dozens of licenses lying around from machines that got liberated with the help of the penguin)
And for me, a MS license is not all that expensive for someone living on minimum income, in a nation where a license can come close to a months or even years wages... well the choice is even easier.
The US by continuing to turn into a knowledge only culture (describing the US as a knowledge culture, I am going to have to hand in my EU citizen card for this one) is doing the samething the Brits did pre-WW2. "Why should we produce our own food when we can have foreigners do this for us cheaper and can then use our country side for hunting instead". Capital idea, except that nasty Mr Hitler threw a spanner in the works by sinking the ships bringing in the food. What a rotter.
The knowledge/IP economy only works when everyone is willing to play along. It is easy to argue that everyone benefits but clearly not everyone seems to agree. With a physical goods economy (the one the US got really really big on) it is easier to force people to play along. You can just stop shipments if someone breaks the rules. And it is rather hard to steal 1000tons of goods. Just ask the somali pirates what happens to you when you try to steal US cargo. "TRIPLE SYNCHRONIZED HEADSHOT!" (in Unreal commentator voice). And that is if you are a lucky pirate. The russian put some in a rubber boat that just somehow managed to sink... well worse things happen at sea, especially if you upset russians.
But IP? You don't even have to go to the source, the "victim" just happily sends it to you. If the US wants to sell a DVD in China, it got to send the DVD and then just anyone can copy it/steal it. It is an insane system to rely on for your economy. You don't see Shell going around filling everyone's gas tank then hoping they will pay up?
What is China's motivation for respecting US IP? So that money from its economy floats to the west? How does that aid them? (Well it would allow the US to at least start paying some of its massive debts back) The US is banking its economy on a sector were you really depend on the kindness of strangers. Which seems odd since that is not really what capitalists are best at.
When Germany declared war on Britian, they had to spend a fortune on submarines to attempt to "sink" the UK's economy. If China were to declare war, all it would need to do is stop payments for IP. Oh and stop sending goods. No need to sink cargo vessels, just not let them sail anymore. The battle for the pacific would be won with a piece of paper. What would the US do, bomb Chinese ports to force the sunken ships to sail? Block Chinese banks so the money for IP couldn't be transferred even more?
An IP based economy relies far to much on the recognition that IP has to be paid for and to anyone who doesn't have IP that recognition has no positive sides. China/Russia/Canada/EU/Africa do not gain anything from recognizing US IP. Sure, they probably play along because their politicians either want to keep the peace or are corrupted by lobbyists, but how long will that
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
I certainly don't see the US on the list of worst governments for enforcing copyright law.
This is a stupid thing to say for two reasons. First, I was comparing the US response on the situation vis-a-vis drug exports to the Chinese response on the situation regarding pirate media exports. Second, the US is the nation which is most aggressive about enforcing copyright law, even forcing other nations to do so.
You answer that question in the next verb clause of your sentence. Maybe the fact that more pirated media is made in China has to do with the fact that everything is made in China? The majority of copyright infringement happens on Windows, too; clearly that means it's Microsoft's fault.
This is a stupid thing to say, because there's a big difference from "happens on windows" and "happens in china". Who is in control of China's ports, if not China? The U.S. is responsible for its drug exports, because the U.S.' ports are in the U.S. Doesn't claim otherwise, either. China is responsible for its pirate media exports. They claim they aren't even happening. If you can't see the difference here, there is something seriously wrong with you, or you are being deliberately obtuse, i.e. trolling.
The simple truth is that the majority of pirated media comes from China, and China is rejecting this fact.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I can't really speak for China or Russia, but Canada is no more a haven for pirating than the US. What makes Canada a "problem" is that they have some of the best laws in the world regarding the privacy of its citizens. So that means that a corporation can't just go to an ISP and demand information on a random user and have their account suspended without due process. So Canada's problem is that it values people over corporations.
Oh, and for the record, I'm an American, not Canadian; and yes, I am jealous.
Why is it manufactured in China in the first place? Seems weird to send China masters, then complain they are pirating it. If you are concerned about piracy, manufacture the products in the US where you can control the distribution.
The quest to save a dollar (and never pass the savings to the consumer) by having things manufactured in China will be be Hollywood's self-made enemy.
Forcing all countries to respect achaic laws (once created to protect the little man but now shamelously abused to whack those very same people into submission and make overall prices higher by having to pay everyone-and-his-mum "licences") is, to me, a "bully of the block" thing.
Maybe China simply does not believe in protecting creators this way.
I know that I find the *intention* of that protection allright, but abhor what it has been warped into.
Ask yourself : why do programmers, musicians, etc get this protection, but the person who uses his creativity to paint your wall not ? After all, every person who does something puts his knowledge and skill into his product, just like the above mentioned occupations. How come those few groups may enjoy a lifelong income (and even upto their grandchildren) from a single brainfart, where someone else exhibiting his art in whatever he does may not ?
When legitimate American companies deny with IP blocking access to Canadians what other solutions are there ? I can buy CDs from Amazon yet MP3 have been blocked from downloading some weeks after the service was introduced after I had already bought several hard to find albums. Many American companies will go as far as saying they don't ship 'overseas' when blocking Canada, which is funny considering Hawaii or Alaska is further away than 90% of the Canadian population
I live in China (Harbin, to be exact).
The ONLY shops here that seem to sell legal software are some of the supermarket chains. In fact, the only legal software I see in any quantity (and not much of that)are PS3 games, since they haven't been cracked yet. These sell for about 300-400 rmb ($40-$60). Compare that to any other computer game of 4-7 rmb ($0.5-$1).
Same thing with movies. I can often buy the DVD release of a movie before it's available in the west, complete with picture insert and so forth, for around $1.
I understand that music is not a big seller since everyone downloads it.
I often discuss this my students (I'm an English teacher) and, quite literally, EVERYBODY buys / downloads / uses copied media. It's part of the fabric of the country. Since the government love to keep the people happy, you aren't going to see any change whatsoever on this in the near future, despite whatever the Chinese government may say.
The only two examples I know of that seem to 'sell' software with any success is WOW, since they have a separate Chinese micro-payment system, and QQ, an instant messaging service, which also handles micro-transactions (you can upgrade your avatar with extra clothes, and many other things - I've never looked to closely).
Ah, so the degree of hypocrisy is what bothers you? So, if China declares there is a piracy problem, but denies involvement, spends millions on a War on Piracy that is ineffectual, and exists purely to incarcerate its citizens, and then proceeds to continue being secretly involved in piracy, you'd be happier? That's a rather interesting position to take.
'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
It wasn't necessarily something to protect the common people. If I remember right it was so the book printing guilds could make money off book printing without every other book printer printing copies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tSRV5nP9tI
From backing the US$ to trying to sell MS and media products at top prices, nobody seems interested anymore?
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Mention TPB, LimeWire, Rapidshare, Usenet, Kazaa, or any other file or media sharing service, and you will be met with blank stares by the majority of the U.S. Internet-using populace.
If you think a significant amount of U.S. citizens illegally download copyrighted material, then you are sorely detached from reality. It's more like 1 in 15-20 of U.S Internet users. It's only the activity of the pirate base that makes it appear on equal footing with the non-infringers.
Not that most of these people have developed the necessary morality to philosophically oppose piracy. Many are too dumb or simply have not been exposed to it. Actually, this goes both ways. Ninety-nine percent of pirates are not pirating because they are deeply opposed to copyright laws, but because they know they can anonymously get away with it. A living testament to this would be if an enforced (and entrenched) national Internet ID were ever introduced; it would be guaranteed to drastically reduce piracy almost overnight.
And this is why the abolishment of software copyright is a movement destined to fail in the United States: because no one is educated enough to form a cogent opinion about it, and none have the resolve to do something meaningful about its institution. No one will die for copyright, and no one who cares is in public office.
Because they have all these silly laws in the US about minimum wages, worker safety and so on that
would drive up the cost of manufacturing.
To incorrectly quote DrEvil.. "Why make millions when you can make billions"
I am a free slashdotter. I will not be modded, blogged, DRM'd, patented, podcasted or RFID'd. My life is my own.
We Canadians are abiding by our laws just as well as any other country in the world, including the US. Its just that the US Media conglomerates have not succeeded in shoving their idea of strict IP laws down our throats yet, despite their best efforts at bribing our officials. As a result, we see entirely biased bullshit like this announced.
I am sure that in China there is a problem with recognizing the rediculous way that patents and IP are being treated. People are copying technology and selling it and thats probably a real problem for US companies that rely on obedience to US laws to enforce their business models. I can imagine that some of the same is going on in Russia. But Canada? What is the possible origin of lumping Canada in there? Could it be that we have a (gasp) different understanding of fair use and so far (despite our "Conservative" government) have stuck to our guns and maintained our stance? I pay an extra few bucks every time I buy data CDs - why? Because that money is (theoretically at least) being collected to compensate Canadian artists should I choose to do something that infringes on their rights - even if all I actually do is, you know, use them to store data/do backups. Its legal in Canada to download music you don't own I am told (I don't listen to more than a few songs a year on my computer and I think I have a total of 12 mp3s on my system), its just illegal to upload it. I suspect that our stance on fair use, and unwillingness to just roll over and take it up the ass from US companies is the origin of the inclusion of Canada on this list.
Well fuck them then.
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
With all of the ridiculously bad things happening in the world these days, the government want to sit around on expensive trips to other countries (yes, spending gobs of cash) and cry about copyright enforcement? Seriously? We have bigger things to worry about than someone downloading Metallica "music" or some incredibly boring and shallow movie.
Speaking of hypocrisy,
CIA fact book doesn't give the slightest hint about the bombing of Laos and Timor, despite the fact that Laos holds the world record for being the most heavily bombed city in world ever.
Ah, so the degree of hypocrisy is what bothers you?
This is always true. Zero hypocrisy is a degree of hypocrisy. Now you're just obtusely failing to understand language.
So, if China declares there is a piracy problem, but denies involvement, spends millions on a War on Piracy that is ineffectual, and exists purely to incarcerate its citizens, and then proceeds to continue being secretly involved in piracy, you'd be happier? That's a rather interesting position to take.
It's also an amazingly stupid interpretation of what I said. I said China was worse for having more hypocrisy, and you suggest that I would be happier if they had still more. You're too stupid to participate in slashdot. Fuck you for trying to put the opposite of what I said into my mouth. You are an incompetent troll and I hope your computer is killed by a brownout so I never have to see your retarded drivel again.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The US wanted a toxic slave pit to press their media for cents in the $.
The problem is once dvd, blu ray like tech escaped, China learned how to run the factories and make real profits.
Also see the Communist parties side in this.
They get a generation using MS, Unix, Apple like OS, hardware and software with low state input.
After work their citizens drift into to sleep to the latest music, movies and software.
Rather than a NGO, church or union meeting hall to voice their issues with working in a toxic slave pit.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Cool fallacies. Because GP points out a factual error in the comparison between two countries, you inject your personal beliefs into the argument and accuse him of supporting the position of the side he's defending.
To Godwin the thread, this would be like someone claiming Hitler persecuted the Jews in the name of Xenu, with someone refuting the historical accuracy of that portrayal, and you then accuse the debunker of being a Nazi.
Please STFU and GTFO of my internet.
President Obama has promised to double exports from the USA in 2 years. How can he possible accomplish that? Well, he needs ACTA to be signed by every country in the world.
The sad thing is that ACTA makes copyright infringement worse than dealing drugs. If passed, it becomes a federal crime, not civil like today, and not a misdemeanor.
The really sad thing is that these people believe that most people that infringe on copyrights would end up purchasing the media instead. That simply is not true. Perhaps 10% more would purchase a specific media. Where ACTA really hurts humanity is with drugs and designer seeds. The places that need the newest drugs and the highest producing crops cannot afford to pay retail prices.
Anyway, over the next few months there will be a continuous stream of FUD about "stealing copyrighted works" coming from the USA government in preparation to get ACTA signed. It will be just like they did with Wall Street to encourage senate and congressional hearing before the new rules are enacted. Sadly, there are already laws that cover what GS and Leman did. They just aren't enforced.
"...may unfairly disadvantage U.S. IPR holders," Kirk said, using the acronym for international piracy rights."
It's not about stopping piracy, it's about making sure only companies can pirate.
I always like this method of argumentation. Attack the messenger, not the message. It's a personal favorite of religious extremists. Anything can be strewn in bad light, given sufficient motive.
+5 Insightful/Interesting
They lie like Steve Jobs, but without the reality distortion field.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
I'm sorry, but when Americans start suing each other for ridiculous amounts for minor infractions of dubious laws (mostly made up by paid for politicians, to protect an industry that is struggling to evolve with the technology), the rest of the world is expected to sit by with baited breath, and wait for the latest judge to set a new precedent? Then you (Americans) expect the rest of the world to follow your example. America is not the world, just because *you* have a law about something, doesn't mean the rest of the world recognises it automatically and has to abide by it.
Somalia has more piracy. Anyone in international shipping will tell you.
My, you Americans always fail in the most spectacular way with your moral righteous bullshit.
This is a dumb, stupid non-issue - you should APPLAUD the fact that China does not have the same moronic IP enforcement laws rather than the opposite. You just need something to bitch at other countries about - right before you invade them, kill all of their people and come home as fucking heroes for what you did. Kill the 'barbarians' - and then 'liberate them' - and then pat yourself on the back for the great and wonderful job you have done. Hey, after all, you now have a half-black, half-US born teleprompter president who excels in delivering the lies to you.
Seeing as how most of you have never been to China, I'm not surprised you're all slightly wrong. The cost of almost every product is NOT dollar to dollar equal in Chinese currency on just about any product, as it is the same way between the US and Europe. The price on most products is lowered to conform to the differences in wage between China and the US. Although, China is one of the countries where piracy has become so rampant that the economy has adjusted due to piracy. Having been in many of the piracy stores while over there, you can buy just about anything you want from said stores but the cost of the product is bartered on so you may only save a couple of dollars buying an illegal copy if you suck at bartering in chinese (those who can usually pay half of the sticker price). In fact, just about the only place you will pay at a sticker price is in American stores in China. Yes, piracy is a problem, but America needs to learn to deal with it in our economy, not go sue happy on everyone. Maybe there is a reason that piracy is so rampant in those areas, and even here in the states for that matter.
Go fuck yourselves or pay me back my cash you assholes!
/\
Wiki \/
A blank media levy was introduced in Canada in 1997, by the addition of Part VIII, "Private Copying", to the Canadian Copyright Act.
On every blank CD or DVD I have bought in the past seven years or so! That's about 1000 DVD's. I'm a photographer backing up MY OWN WORK. And still paying a copyright fee because I May have copied. Lame fucking shit. American lobbyists stay the fuck away from my parliament!
We can't pressure China to do anything unless we are willing to risk total warefar with them. All they have to do is threaten a minor hiccup in treasury purchases and we just lost our testicles. Oh and don't go with they need us just as much as we need them economically crap. No they don't. They have a rising rest of Asia, Russian Federation, Europe and India to sell cheap stuff to. Oh yes it would slow them down a great deal but not like what it would do to us; not at all.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Why do China and North Korea always deny everything with such strong wording, or make threats rather than say something like "We will look into this matter further"? They do it even when its obvious they did something or FAILED to do something. China : QUOTE : 'The involved US Congress members should respect the fact and stop making groundless accusations against China.' North Korea : QUOTE : "If there were indications that the sinking was our doing, then the whole thing is an act — theatrics by the South Koreans to implicate us," QUOTE : "If (South Korea) tries to deal any retaliation or punishment, or if they try sanctions or a strike on us .... we will answer to this with all-out war"
That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
It's not that we are the 3rd worst country in the world to enforce copyright policy... It's that we are the 3rd worst country in the world for enforcing the US version of copyright policy... We follow our policies just fine, thank you, and there really is no need to modify the regulations, except I DO think that a levy should be imposed upon iPods and similar devices. Screw what the US wants... Look at the mess they are in now, and if that ship is sinking, I sure as hell don't feel like drowning because of them...
Antigua is not on this list and they have free IP from the us is that why they are not on hear?
To see just how far gone society is, one only has to look at IP law. I can't think of a worse crime, except genocide, than the theft of a people's art and culture from them. The greed of the powerful to own and control not only the physical but also the works of mind is destroying all that is good about us.
We are, as a society, doomed unless we stop this immoral theft of our lives and minds. Greed is an illness that must be treated.
1.25 USD per disc
That the main point and why so called "piracy" is also rampant in these various other nations. These media distributors are seriously price gouging, they have some insane idea of what their "copies" are allegedly worth, so the market routes around their idiocy. And everyone knows it. If they made these copies closer to that chinese knock off price, that is also closer to a "fair" price for duplication copies using today's tech. They could make up the difference on volume sales. Instead, 20 bucks a disk, DRM, warnings, etc, then bitch up and down and sideways over piracy.
I mean..duh
Back when making a physical copy actually cost a whole lot more, charging an appropriate price was fair and understandable. This is not the case now, especially with digital downloads, let alone what everyone knows is the price for blank media and making copies in bulk. The **AA cartel just needs to get seriously real on prices, they should have done it years ago. What they charge to *rent* a disk they could afford to just outright sell it, and still make good profit, especially if they kept the packaging costs low. Just stick them in cheap printed paper sleeves, sell for a few bucks, at least have that option. If people wanted the full jewel case and liner notes, swell, charge another couple of bucks, up to but not exceeding five dollars. $20 for a disk is out to lunch, 99 cents for a few megs download is out to lunch as well, the old "allofmp3" prices were a lot fairer.
And yes, to nip the indignant knee jerk reaction in advance, I am fully aware of production costs. That's not the point, they are carved in stone, called a sunk price, after that you want to sell as many copies as possible to make your profit. "Oh noes, I need to charge twenty for this stamped disk to make money, plus this is "what the market will bear". Nope, incorrect again, this is why there is so much piracy, the "market" mostly thinks 20 bucks for a disk is ludicrous, it is *not* bearing it except in way high paid a few nations and only a small subset in those nations. Look again at the parent post, a buck 25 is closer to what the global market of 6.5 billion people can afford. A small fraction of your potential market has enough disposable cash (now, watch as the economy keeps tanking...) to think 20 is cool, the vast bulk of humanity thinks anyone-you the media copy seller are nuts and will not pay that price, and they don't. It's been the collective global big finger to those sort of bloated prices.
Stop price gouging on non scarce and very cheap resources, see what happens.
Never before have I ever been so proud to be both a Russian and a Canadian.
Well, you buy your ticket, you take the ride. At some point one will cost more than the other, and capitalism supposedly wins again? Seems a bit brute force to me.
Really, Canada is up there above Sweden in the eyes of the US? They're just chucking Canada in there since the US has been putting pressure on them to "harmonize" their laws. I guess they're trying to shame them into it?
Twinstiq, game news
Intellectual property theoretically exists not merely to encourage science, technology, and the arts, but patents also require that you explain your process, thus helping others advance their own research and development.
Copyright should obviously carry the same mandate when applied to technology like software. In other words, all software copyrights should become unenforceable unless the source code is also published in compilable form, that'd include the software driving your mobile phone, microwave, etc.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
Imagine if they faced a $6B judgement, just awesome! I'd suggest you guys just decorporate those Canadian record companies, and reincorporate them under the sole ownership of the plaintiffs who they've been stealing from.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
The turbo-prop US cargo plane attacked the Chinese fighter jets by ramming the fighter jets from behind. The claims were almost comical. It reminds me of the Iraqi minister of information: "there are no US troops in Baghdad!"
I guess countries with closed information sources develop a different mind-set. The leaders are used to their outrageous lies being unchallenged.
Should we blame the government?
Or blame society?
Or should we blame the images on TV?
NO!
Blame Canada!
Blame Canada!
With all their beady little eyes and flapping heads so full of lies!
Blame Canada!
Blame Canada!
We need to form a full assault!
It's Canada's fault!
. . .
We must blame them and cause a fuss before somebody thinks of blaming uuuuuuuuuuus!
We have a trade deficit, that means when we trade we lose, the solution is to stop trade or at least cut back heavily on the bits where we are losing, that is what isolationism is.
As far as your imaginations that people would buy american voluntarily your own first point soundly destroys such a thought, people can't afford to buy anything but the cheapest on the market, isolationism, taxes on imports, etc. make sure the american goods are the lowest priced products on the shelves and insure that any traitors who would buy foreign stuff are taxed heavily for their actions.
Isolationism is the only thing that can save our economy.
Since when he's into copyright laws?
http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5049/125/
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
I hope you do realize that a lot of pirated stuff is created with the consent of the IP holder eh?
There are all sorts of reasons why batches of product are rejected. Inferior quality is just one of them. Restricted substances another. Western companies just love to cut corners and allow Chinese factories to take all sorts of risks with cheap raw materials, flaky processing etc. It's cheaper to sell failed batches at cost to "pirates" then it is to properly keep everything under control. Don't forget why things are manufactured in China. It's because it's cheaper. And that cheaper doesn't just come from lower labor costs.
I am pretty sure that the real way that the MPAA / RIAA / etc rate countries on how much piracy is going on is by how much MPAA / RIAA butt the countries kiss.
The more butt kissing, the less piracy. Pass laws the MPAA / RIAA write, and you get a free pass.
wake up and hold your nose
"Take your ACTA and shove it. And bow lower next time you visit. Lick the dirt!"
"We also are encouraging Canada to provide its customs authorities with the authority to seize pirated and counterfeit products," McCoy said
So it's not enough that you expect Canada to bend over on command re: copyright law. More than that, you'd like our government to ignore the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (article 8) for your convenience? Dear Mr USTR: you can kiss my infringing, frost-bitten ass.
on the other.
why should anyone drop piracy and take up what usa is trying to lord over entire world.
Read radical news here
Either used and real cheap at pawnshops or yardsales, etc, or hitting the severe mark down bin at megamart.** I never pay first run prices for a cheap disk, I don't care what bits are on them, because I don't want to feed the price gouger trolls and encourage that behavior.
**note: I don't download or pirate, never, but I also won't pay their bloated prices. If I can't get it at a closer to fair reality price, I just don't bother. They just lost a somewhat regular and long standing customer who bought their stuff since the late 50s. No more. I follow tech advances, the prices they charge do *not* reflect cost savings being passed on to the consumer any more, not even close. It's freakin cartel price fixing.
Ain't a piece of entertainment on a disk out there that's worth going to either extreme of pirating or paying bloat prices for it to acquire it, IMO, I don't care what star/special effects/bellowing band is represented on that disk or download. I'll get entertained some other way before I do that.
If some "star" and production house is already a millionaire or a billion dollar company...they got enough and can drop prices and not lobby to get laws and practices carved in stone to reflect their business model and last century's "per unit" pricing they want to keep. "Units" are *cheap* now.
Digital products are not scarce, so the prices should reflect that. Even digital products on plastic disks are cheap to make. If they aren't happy with a 100% markup for their "products"...screw 'em. Just tons of other businesses manage to stay in business and make a good profit at less than 100% markup, sometimes much much less than that. If the clone makers can charge $1.25 and still make a profit over their costs, then the official joints could charge two bucks even and proly come real dang close to 100% markup. If they claim it costs more than that, they are getting copies made for resale where it is way too expensive, they should shop around better.
As to pure digital download products, this is replicator tech we are talking about. The people, the consumers, need a "law" on our side, a 21st century law, that reflects the reality of our first near free replicator tech and make it so all download products can't be priced more than 100% markup over server/hosting/processing/bandwith costs.
If we don't, we are gonna get royally screwed in the future when tangible replicator "tea, earl grey, hot" styled replicator tech hits. Legalized buggywhip pricing. Buy a car, you still have to pay the buggywhip and horseshoe guy expected profits. Screw that. Tech advances, so prices should reflect these advances then.
We don't pay monks hand scribing a book prices anymore for dead tree products, but that's what the digital resellers want. No...just no, that's too dang greedy and lame for society as a whole, looking forward, and that's my concern, for future generations and this nutso pricing precedent they have now with our first really ubiquitous replicator technology.
I'm in food production, and I am not hypocritical about this. I encourage everyone to grow as much of their own food as possible, use open pollinated non patented seeds, share seeds with your friends, "make copies" as much as you can and share them around, share the knowledge of how to grow stuff, and all that et cetera there. Just do it. I am not trying to "get rich" off of food production, I never expect or even desire to become a millionaire from making food, I just think ending hunger is a worthy goal, and the cheaper and easier we can make it the better. That's the best I can do with that sort of tech level society has now at this time. If that means eventually that food gets so cheap and easy to get for everyone that I go out of business, I *don't care*, I'd be the happiest dude on the planet if that was to happen. I'll go do something else then, you never run out of ideas or projects, never.
His post is brief but it answers the OP's question succinctly. Canada is listed because we have not adopted DMCA style copyright laws and the US is not happy about this. Other than that, the real statistics place the United States way above Canada when it comes to piracy!
Citations? Plenty here: http://www.michaelgeist.ca/
My ire is directed at your government and the media companies that seem to control it, not at the average American, or indeed at the incredible social experiment that is your country. I have quite literally never met an American who didn't seem to be nice - I know you aren't all that way but that's my experience.
My rant was written while I was exhausted and just got off work...
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
Sure. If you don't enforce 100 year copyright terms, the US thinks you're a PIRATE.
Hats off to Canada for sticking to what is a borderline unreasonable 50 years.
Full disclosure: IMSLP fanboy.
Send your spendthrift head of state this
its horrible that we are selling patents to china, our technology and rely apon other countries for millitary parts and supplies. no one thinks of this if we went to war with china we would be against one of the most powerful countries in the world out numbered with over a billion people in the country our country has been selling technology to them now them pirating our technology, media, entertainment. Does anyone realize how bad it is getting!!!!!!! anyone think these days about the reality of the next world war its not if but when its coming its over due!!!!!! With china hacking our systems, pirating our technology, our country selling our technologies to china? do you know the consequences of this????? They will be able to out produce us out gun us but we could nuke them to hell but that would start the feared nuclear war that would destroy the world!!!!! Am i the only one that cares about the consequences of the actions of the u.s.? we have to take action against china soon this can't go any farther, diplomacy doesn't work!!!!! We owe them tons of money if they were to ask for it back we would be screwed time to change this country stop selling our technologies technologies that use to make this country great.
read this and understand our sintuation in this world the public has to know about how bad it is, and our generations don't realize its not if but when, war is coming maybe not in 5 year 10 years or 20 years but it is coming, we must prepare ourselve. It matters a hell of alot more of who is holding "the big stick" but it also does of the size of the big stick.
MAYBE, but in your country you walk a block to the local DVD store and choose from a selection of thousands of pirated DVDs, each selling for the equivalent of 1.25 USD per disc? That's what it's like living in any city in China.
Man, you had to go a whole block? Surprised they didn't have a table set up closer than that.
It's probably impossible to buy a NON-pirated DVD in China (I for one have never seen one!)
Actually it's fairly easy, especially for Chinese movies/shows, primarily at the bigger stores like Wal-Mart. It's just that it's 10 or 20 times easier to find the bootlegs, so Laowai like us never look for the legit stuff.
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
City, not country. Vientiane is a city. Laos is a country.
Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
Use your work and the other several billion bucks worth of open source work you are allowed to use freely in some business that "makes money". Use it
I suggest for hints on "what business" start on page one of the yellow pages, A to Z, most business today uses software and computers. Just peruse around, see what interests you.
We produce food here on this farm, poultry and beef. We don't get paid for every skill set and work hour directly, there's no direct pay for picking up a tool and using it. We use these developed skills in an overall "business". OK, this week I am haying. Yesterday the magic smoke wafted out of my primary disk mower...grumble. Oh ya, had *two* flats on a tedder as well, one of which required me changing out a shredded tire, using tire irons and a lot of sweat. So, because I need to hay *now* and can't wait on parts and the time to fix the newer big mower, I had to dig out the older like thirty year old mower and make it work. It's satup and rusted out like a long time. This involved machining a driveshaft to fit, to make it suitable for purpose, among other things. Took some hours, but got a good piece cut today, I'll finish up tomorrow.
I don't get paid for tire changing, I don't get paid for machining and repairing directly, I don't submit an invoice for tractor jockeying..none of that do I get directly paid for. I *do* get paid for doing all these various things when product gets sold, and *if* there is a profit. This is "business", we use a ton of tools and skillsets that have to be developed in "business" and offer a real tangible product for sale. Other folks have service businesses that they do the same at. I can't just sit around and wait for flats to fix, and just that, or wait for something to break then dig out the wrenches, and charge just for that and insist that is all I am going to do. I can't just say to joe farm boss I am only going to operate a tractor, nothing else. I'd get bounced and wouldn't make any money, none.
Anyway, that's how you "make money" with tools and the developed skills to use them, you *use* the tools in some *other* real business. Having to custom make tools and parts, etc, think outside the box, come up with solutions and innovations, that haven't been done before, whatever, is quite common outside of the software "tool" business, that is how people keep going with their jobs that pay the rent, etc.
This stuff you expect to sell..your customers must use it, what do they do for a business, how do they use these tools to make money? Your solution might be just looking what they do to make cash. If they can make profit off of your work, you might be able to make double that profit if you did that sort of work yourself, with your custom designed software tools.
As much as I feel today's China is an unchecked threat to the so-called global economy, and by extension world peace, they do raise a valid point here. We can't just go pointing fingers without any proof, and since there's no legal way to get solid proof of piracy, the U.S. doesn't have a leg to stand on. Just as the RIAA, MPAA and BSA lose, or I should say settle, more suits than they win, because they know their evidence is bogus (but the defendant does not), this too is a false battle congress simply cannot win.
More importantly, it is a false battle they should not be starting in the first place. It is the embarrassing result of rampant lobbying by a handful of corporate giants, trying to hire public officials to throw their stones for them.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
The International Intellectual Property Alliance, which represents U.S. copyright industry groups
...Seriously?
Let me get this straight: at a time when we're trying to get China to finally help do something about North Korea, we're giving them shit about copyright violations? Where are our priorities??
I am fully aware of this or that production costs, was around that scene for quite a few years. I guess I'll pass on name dropping right now, just assume I am telling you straight.
Here's the deal..you don't want to hear the truth, your mind is made up in advance. You are talking to someone who supports the idea you should get paid. I am telling you *why* this keeps being difficult, and why this whole article is posted here in the first place.
The article is about this huge segment of the global population that fully realizes that what the collective "you" want to charge for your intellectual property copies is ludicrously too high, obnoxiously so, so they choose to not pay anything to you. I am perfectly willing to meet content providers half way, drop those ludicrous prices down to something more reasonable, a price that truly reflects what your per unit production costs are better today, because of astounding tech advances that we have had, and I go back to being a paid customer for new product. I was in the past for decades, but not now. You getting it yet? You pissed off the bulk of your customers years ago, and now wonder why your stuff ain't selling like you think it should.
I don't download and copy for free, but I refuse to pay price gougers prices either, when I know full well what copies cost. And I don't care about your upfront costs, because that's set,(and I also know full well at least with music that production cost has dropped dramatically over the past thirty years, huge cost drops) your copies for sale costs could be loads cheaper, and again, you have six billion with a B potential customers out there. Fairer price, plus volume sales is what you should be looking at.
In other words, you are arguing with the wrong guy, argue with the people who just stopped even considering giving you a single penny instead, ask them why they refuse, and just download for free. I don't refuse to pay you, I just will not be taken advantage of and seriously overpay based on last century's per unit cost of copies for sale. I'm not paying 50 bucks for a loaf of bread, that's obvious price gouging. I am not paying 100 bucks for a gallon of gas today, that is price gouging. I am not paying 400 bucks for a pair of jeans, that's obvious price gouging. And I am not paying 20 bucks for a ten cent stamped disk, that's price gouging. I know you can see it with my other examples, just..think about it some more. To your customers, and the bulk of the planet (again, see article), your twenty buck a disk product is as much price gouging as my other examples, you just ain't seeing that yet. This fixation on making thousands of percent markup "per unit" is the problem. think lower prices, move many more units instead.
You have over six billion humans as potential customers. If you can't price and sell your product enough within that size pool to make it attractive to most of those folks, make them willing to purchase from you..well, stay stuck wondering why this is so, and when people tell you directly, keep refusing to listen.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
Just more propaganda of the US Corporations and Government trying force our government to adopt US style laws. These figures are pulled out of their asses - there is no hard proof of anything.
The American policy of draconian laws regarding copyright might win at home, but in other countries, home-grown content is often brushed aside by (American) distributors. Often those countries have to promote local artists, a practice derided by American companies, even though in many cases, the content is targeted only at Americans. It appears the situation is: we want you to buy our content, only our content and pay a premium for that content, while disregarding your own home-grown content. The MPAA/RIAA (MaFiAA) may have successfully extended copyright laws in the US to basically forever, while also getting highly disproportionate fines and penalties put in place (a dvd is a 10 cent piece of plastic that sells for $22, but copyright infringement is $250,000). Its absolutely absurd. As for the amounts listed in 'lost and stolen monies', they likely have numbers similar which state how home-grown content is harming their business, except its then called 'competition', something they also would like to outlaw.
So how is that different from the B movie?
Don't forget 90% of everything is crap.
Not exactly, the guild didn't really have enough political clout to get the modification on the books. But the legal profession did and the guild members were really making a nuisance of themselves (to some extent in the legal sense too) by making big complicated pure judgement cases against each other. The copyright laws mostly made the legal cases a simple question of who could provide the earliest date with the registrar, case closed.
The court can get onto a less boring case.
China is selling DVDs for $1.25, but Hollywood had a record box office last year. For about the third or fourth year in a row. It's obviously killing them (sarcasm).
The truth is that if there were no pirated product available in China, they STILL wouldn't be able to sell overpriced DVDs to them.
I think most of the thinking world knows that almost ALL of the "piracy" claims are groundless.
It's so funny how China has to go and deny all the time the bleeding obvious. I lived in a city in Northeast China for one year and in fact it was impossible to find legitimate CDs/DVDs in the whole town. And yes they were very very very cheap, and although had some occasional issues such a s: wrong sound track to the picture (i.e. Star Wars Empire Strikes Back with Forest Gump audio??!) And while news sites, video sites, and social networking sites were often blocked torrents were pretty much widely open available from everywhere.
Speaking from first hand accounts of co-workers who visit and do business with Chinese manufacturing companies, software piracy is indeed the social norm. From a fair trade standpoint, this is just another lie that the Chinese do not want to discuss. They obviously feel different about intellectual property than the rest of the world does.
In view of business between U.S. companies and Chinese companies, this problem is especially catastrophic for U.S. medium and small business who legally use software. Larger companies can usually absorb the trade differentials of the illegal Chinese software use whereas medium and small businesses have a much more difficult time doing so. The bottom line is we are re-distributing wealth with a country who practices are highly illegal.
A typical U.S. manufacturing company who legally pays $15K to $30K for a single seat of specialized cad/cam/cae software has to trade and/or compete with Chinese companies who pay nothing for the same software. Typical seats at a U.S. company can range from 3-4 seats to upwards of hundreds of seats. Also yearly maintenance is added per seat per year. Couple that fact with Chinese companies spend very little on equivalent EPA and OSHA type regulation and you have a completely unbalanced trade situation which totally favors the Chinese.
While the governments are making under-the-table-deals the citizens are growing quite tired of these political games and real change is going to happen again. This time for the better.
: )
... and capitalism supposedly wins again?
Yeah, capitalism. Seeing a whole lot of that making the rounds lately, aren't we? -looks for the next source of a bailout-