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Amazon Kindle Fails First College Test

theodp writes "If Amazon hoped for honest feedback when it started testing the Kindle DX on college campuses last fall, writes Amy Martinez, it certainly got its wish. Students pulled no punches telling Amazon what they thought of its $489 e-reader. But if Amazon also hoped the Kindle DX would become the next iPhone or iPod on campuses, it failed its first test. At the University of Virginia, as many as 80% of MBA students who participated in Amazon's pilot program said they would not recommend the Kindle DX as a classroom study aid (though more than 90% liked it for pleasure reading). At Princeton and Reed, students complained they couldn't scribble notes in the margins, easily highlight passages, or fully appreciate color charts and graphics. 'The pilot programs are doing their job — getting us valuable feedback,' said Amazon spokesman Drew Herdener. Martinez notes that Reed, Seton Hall, and other colleges plan to test the iPad in the fall to see if it can do better."

256 comments

  1. Odd choice by damn_registrars · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    So you mean they chose MBA students to test the applicability of a device for students' use? They should have considered using real graduate students instead. As a grad student myself, I can say that the only way I would consider a kindle or ipad for my own use is if someone gave it to me for free...

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    1. Re:Odd choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Paper for you it is, then.

    2. Re:Odd choice by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well, according to several e-mails that made it to my spam trap, there seem to be many surefire ways to get a free iPad or Kindle. Seems all you have to do is sign up for some marketing promotions and surveys...

    3. Re:Odd choice by qortra · · Score: 4, Funny
      There were some real graduate students in the mix:

      "You don't read textbooks in the same linear way as a novel," said Roesner, 23, a graduate student in computer science and engineering.

      Honestly, I tend to agree. Not having tried a Kindle myself, my opinion means little. However, I strongly suspect that I would encounter the same frustration that these people did when using it instead of textbooks.

      With regard to business school, Futurama said it best:

      All I want is to be a monkey of moderate intelligence who wears a suit... that's why I'm transferring to business school!

    4. Re:Odd choice by YA_Python_dev · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well they are completely right to complain about this: "they couldn't scribble notes in the margins, easily highlight passages".

      You can do that with the products from IREX which, BTW, also happen to be much more open than the Kindle (no DRM bullshit, based on Linux, you can install new/better applications, etc.).

      Disclaimer: I don't work for IREX, I'm only an happy owner of an iLiad.

      --
      There's a hidden treasure in Python 3.x: __prepare__()
    5. Re:Odd choice by ArhcAngel · · Score: 2, Funny

      Disclaimer: I don't work for IREX, I'm only an happy owner of an iLiad.

      It's been a long day, I thought you said iLaid. I have a revolutionary new product idea.

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    6. Re:Odd choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      So you mean they chose MBA students to test the applicability of a device for students' use? They should have considered using real graduate students instead.

      Franzi Roesner is a Ph.D. student in Computer Science. http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/franzi/

    7. Re:Odd choice by cgenman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I tend to find textbooks to be an outmoded form of communication anyway. In the classes I'm in we tend to switch between lab work, reading individual papers, reading smaller subject-specific paperbacks, etc. Most of the traditional thick / hardbound textbooks I've bought in the past year have just sat on the shelf. It's important background information that doesn't help you understand the political climate of China, why graphic designers work the way they do, or how to build flash applications.

      Maybe Amazon should be targeting the smaller, single-use books in some way. Maybe buying individual chapters, so that professors can tailor a curriculum more tightly. Or having one-stop information compendiums that make it easier to buy everything for a specific class. Spend 100 dollars, and get the relevant chapters from 2 different textbooks, a few individual copies of relevant softbacks, and PDF archive versions of specific web pages that the class will use.

    8. Re:Odd choice by Endo13 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Let me include a bit more of that quote...

      "You don't read textbooks in the same linear way as a novel," said Roesner, 23, a graduate student in computer science and engineering. "You have to flip back and forth between pages, and the Kindle is too slow for that."

      That rings very true to my own educational experience. Also, based on my own experience and from watching other students in the past, when you're looking for something specific in a textbook you're most likely going to flip through looking for a picture, diagram, or a certain page layout. You may even remember approximately how far in from the front or back of the book the section is you're looking for (ie. you may remember it's about half an inch or one finger's thickness from the back of the book). None of these visual cues would work as well with an ebook reader, and as Roesner said, would be a lot slower.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
    9. Re:Odd choice by Nakor+BlueRider · · Score: 1

      Another choice that might be better geared to students is the Entourage eDGe. If memory serves it was created with students, especially in science fields, in mind. It has one ePaper screen and one tablet-esque LCD screen, and apparently it's received decent reviews from students, though I have no personal experience therewith.

      Recent article
      Official site

      Excerpt from article:

      The enTourage eDGe is the first device to merge an e-paper and LCD screen to create a dual-screen device that combines the functionality of an e-reader, tablet netbook, notepad and audio/video recorder and player in one inclusive device. These two displays work together to allow students to access and enrich information in a way that they previously couldn’t. Students can access their textbooks and make notes in the margins or highlight text while they simultaneously look up further information on the subject via the Web on the LCD side.
      [...]
      The two screens of the enTourage eDGe interact so that users can open hyperlinks that are included in an e-book text and view the content on the LCD screen, or ‘attach’ Web pages to passages in an e-book to be referenced at a later point. Additionally, as the enTourage eDGe uses E-Ink technology for easy digital reading, images will appear in gray-scale on the e-paper side of the device; however, users can load these in color on the LCD side, ideal for viewing colored charts and graphs from course materials. A built-in camera and microphone captures audio and video content that users can store and play back later. Included Documents To Go software makes Microsoft Office documents available for creating, viewing and editing for notes or school papers. The enTourage eDGe runs on the Google Android operating system and backs up all content on enTourage Systems’ servers for safe keeping. The device folds a full 360 degrees and orients its displays horizontally or vertically, to view as a book, single screen, or prop up laptop style.

    10. Re:Odd choice by shadowrat · · Score: 1

      you could search for it.

    11. Re:Odd choice by Lunatrik · · Score: 1

      I owned an iLiad for a while and, while it was GREAT for reading, its note-taking capabilities were not at all up to snuff for heavy useage. So, yes, while it CAN do it, I certainly wouldn't recommend it - the tech just isn't there. A few of the note-taking issues:

      Slow to load sometimes
      Had to specially format PDFs to give enough room to write in (a big deal if you read dozens of articles/week!)
      Not all articles (in fact, not nearly enough) worked well with the special formatting
      Pages are "smaller" than an actual notebook
      Highlighting didn't really work

      Now, again, the iLiad is a solid product, but I use composition books again now alongside a PRS-300 for leisure reading. I would argue NO solution is adequate yet for digital note taking.

    12. Re:Odd choice by qortra · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe Amazon should be targeting the smaller, single-use books in some way. Maybe buying individual chapter

      Not a bad idea at all. Unfortunately, Amazon's impetus here isn't to make academia easier for students - it's to drive more sales of Kindles and Kindle media. Amazon loves the Kindle because they have a fat profit margin on books (shipping costs less than bandwidth, no material cost), and tighter control over distribution and dissemination. Combining your idea with Kindle content doesn't address the main complaint that was documented by the article. Namely, textbooks are not often read linearly. They require more random access, and that isn't as easy on a Kindle than in a physical textbooks (or chapter pamphlets as you suggest).

    13. Re:Odd choice by qortra · · Score: 1

      You may even remember approximately how far in from the front or back of the book the section is you're looking for

      Absolutely. Not to mention the fact that frequently used pages will naturally open up when you get close. Kind of a pre-computer weighted search. It's pretty amazing how well designed books are.

    14. Re:Odd choice by Culture20 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      when you're looking for something specific in a textbook you're most likely going to flip through looking for a picture, diagram, or a certain page layout. You may even remember approximately how far in from the front or back of the book the section is you're looking for (ie. you may remember it's about half an inch or one finger's thickness from the back of the book). None of these visual cues would work as well with an ebook reader, and as Roesner said, would be a lot slower.

      you could search for it.

      Not always. I love my paper versions of old AD&D material. I got some rtf and MS helpfile versions of some AD&D material with a Core Rules CD a long while back. It was neat to search for specific text until I realized my spacial memory is stronger than my textual: I couldn't remember what certain things were called "Tome of Infinite Magic? Libram of Unending Magic? Oh well, I know it's in the misc magic items section..." I know which section of the book I'm in just by the pictures. I bet you could give a text-redacted version to any D&D nerd and they'd tell you what chart is on what page, but they might not remember what the exact words are to search for them, or what page numbers they are.

    15. Re:Odd choice by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hint: Not everyone cares about the politics of china, graphic designers or flash.

      In mechanical engineering my books were/are invaluable. There is yet an online resource (and I've searched) that has as much material laid out as well as it does. Equations for four bar linkages, friction disks, thermodynamics, heat and mass transfer, etc haven't changed much in the last decade (or longer).

      One HUGE regret I have is selling some of my books for pennies on the dollar. When referencing material that you spent a semester learning, nothing beats opening the exact book you used to help you remember.

      Heck when I had to retake a course because I transfered schools I kept my original text book and used it in the new class along side my new book.

      One thing that did irk me is that we did never use the full book, even in follow up courses.
      ME 352 would have Book A and we'd use chapters 1-10, but ME 452 would have Book B and we'd use 10-20. Even though they were the 'same material'.

      If I had the cash and was a professor I you could make a killing off of leasing books to students. Estimate that over the next 5 years you're going to have no more than 300 students / semester. Figure that 100 books will be stolen lost or damaged and you won't change from said book.

      So you buy 400 books at 100 each, you're out $40,000. Lease books to students for $20* a semester. After 5 years you'll have made $20k profit and still have usable books.

      My private elementary school had the some of the same books for close to 15 years. Each year you HAD to cover your books with grocery bags and take care of them. If a 3rd grader can take care of a Math book for an entire year, a college student can do it for a semester.

      *$100 with $80 refund. They're going to come out better than if they bought and sold from the book store. You're going to turn a huge profit.

    16. Re:Odd choice by Lord+Ender · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Kindle IS based on Linux. The Kindle DOES NOT require DRM. You need to get your facts straight. And unlike the cheaper readers, the Kindle actually has a gigantic library attached to it through that free 3G connection.

      E-ink readers are great for pleasure reading, because you read front-to-back. They are not good for reference books, because it is difficult to "flip through" pages in them. The search feature also is inadequate, as the slow screen makes interactive search feel cumbersome.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    17. Re:Odd choice by apoc.famine · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The kindle can search "page with multiline graph on the upper right, and weird diagram below it that has the equation I need"?

      I agree that the ability to search is killer. The downside is what the GP was trying to say - often you remember what a page looked like that had information you needed on it. It's far quicker to turn to the section of the textbook it's near and just flip through a dozen pages than it is to try to come up with a keyword which will be on that page, and no other pages.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    18. Re:Odd choice by Bigbutt · · Score: 1

      And that's how I use my iPad. I run Shadowrun games and dabble in a few others. For the purposes of getting set up for the game, I use the PDFs and a notebook (lately I've been using my iPhone and Evernote). But during the game when I need to look something up, I know where it is in the book and can flip to it then back and forth a few pages until I find the right spot. With search, it finds every instance in the PDF and I have to slog through the search looking at each page until I find the right one. Maybe search is faster but flipping sure does seem faster.

      [John]

      --
      Shit better not happen!
    19. Re:Odd choice by EggyToast · · Score: 1

      Search is faster for finding what you're searching for. It is not necessarily faster for finding actual information, which is what most people are doing when they are looking through a document. Search is like using a good index; it just tells you where the subject in question appears. You still need to check the context to see if it's the actual information you're looking for.

    20. Re:Odd choice by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And honestly, with this being published... the iPad will have this ability before the kindle devs even get out of the first meeting about it.

      That's the advantage of having a huge developer base for your platform. I'm betting the guys that wrote GoodReader are already on it.

      Give me a graphical MatLab on the iPad and it will utterly kill all the other eReaders that exist in academia circles. Let me open and view CAD drawings and board layout and schematics and it will rule the engineering side as well.

      Honestly, I was sad that the ebook reader in the iPad did not have a "scribble on the book" function. although letting me highlight a section and link notes to it would be better.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    21. Re:Odd choice by BranMan · · Score: 1

      There are companies that create custom collections of content for classes - chapters from multiple books, articles, case studies, the professors own material, etc. They call them CoursePacks. Of course, they are publishers so they market to professors that want to use them. I worked at one point creating a workflow software solution for a company that did that - very interesting project.

    22. Re:Odd choice by nlayer · · Score: 2, Informative

      My own experience follows this closely. I have a Nook. It is superb for reading a casual novel. It absolutely fails at anything for reference. I've tried to use it for a few tech white papers and programming books, but without the ability to quickly thumb through pages, it's a no-go.

      When they come up with a solution for this (with an e-ink screen, as opposed to the active lcd screen of the ipad), it's a world-changer for me.

    23. Re:Odd choice by ed · · Score: 1

      I love my Sony book reader, for novels, but I spotted straight away that for rules for wargames and RPGs it was not suited, for exactly the same reason as the students with their textbooks.

      I am amazed that Amazon did not spot it right from day 1

    24. Re:Odd choice by grahamsz · · Score: 1

      One thing that did irk me is that we did never use the full book, even in follow up courses.

      I had a few professors who'd generally photocopy the chapters we needed. One said he made enough money off his academic work, consulting and book sales that he really didn't need to profit unnecessarily from his own students.

      \didn't go to school in the US

    25. Re:Odd choice by IICV · · Score: 2, Informative

      My wife is a "real graduate student" (she's doing her doctorate work in radiocarbon calibration), and although she got a Kindle for reading scientific papers, she says it sucks way too much at that. These papers usually only come in PDFs, which the Kindle has a hard time displaying properly - the best her small Kindle can do is display one quadrant at a time, which is basically useless. Sometimes you can get the papers as an HTML page, but the Kindle's HTML parser isn't that great and you have to remember to download all the figures individually too - and even then, they're kinda hard to make out since it's rendering them in black and white.

      She basically needs something that just works - you load up a PDF and it's readable, you save (somehow) or browse to a web page and it's readable. The Kindle is not that thing, especially when it comes to scientific papers. It just can't handle the formats she needs it to, at least not easily enough (and unlike me, she hates fucking around with computers; the MythWeb interface is about the extent of what she's willing to put up with)

      Eventually she's going to get an iPad, which should be able to do all the things she needs it to; I'll get the Kindle then, since I read more novels than she does and it rocks at that (except it lacks its own reading light, which seems like the stupidest of oversights).

    26. Re:Odd choice by xystren · · Score: 1

      I'm not surprised we are discussing the issues of searching through electronic documentation. I have had electronic documentation for years with computer software (early 1990s), and this was always my issues. The search function is great providing you have the *EXACT* phrase your looking for. Even then, you may come up with dozens or dozens of results.

      Even worse, is when you are searching for some particular topic, and absolutely nothing comes up, or what does come up is complete wrong and so far out of left field that is isn't even in the same ballpark, let alone the same state. Try and find how to operate "scissors" when they are indexed only as "shears." Extraordinary frustrating.

      My university went to e-texts for their undergrad programs. It has been the most annoying switch that I have had to make. As mentioned in a previous post, I'm extremely spatial, to try and find stuff yet again, becomes a complete pain in the ass; yet to flip back between pages or chapters in physical books is less time consuming than on the electronic version. What is even worse, you don't own the text book, we have a 4 year license to view the text on only two computers.

      I've even had profs comment that I have never used any of my e-texts as references in my papers, and I've told them, if I have something that is in hard-copy, I will use that first over anything that is electronic. The electronic sources are just simply cumbersome; I don't want to be switching to a dozen different windows when I'm writing a paper.

    27. Re:Odd choice by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      "You don't read textbooks in the same linear way as a novel," said Roesner, 23, a graduate student in computer science and engineering. "You have to flip back and forth between pages, and the Kindle is too slow for that."

      This is very true. While I don't own a Kindle, I do have and use two other (different manufacturers) eInk readers, and can testify to the same thing: they are absolutely wonderful for recreational reading, precisely because you just go through the book from start to end 99% of the time you spend with it; for the rest, the available functionality is adequate. But a textbook or any sort of technical book/reference, especially with hyperlinks? Forget it. That's what a netbook (or a tablet) is for.

      A dedicated reader could do the trick, but it needs to be as responsive as a tablet (at which point it is pretty much a tablet, anyway). Perhaps Pixel Qi screens can give us the best of both worlds there...

    28. Re:Odd choice by timeOday · · Score: 2, Insightful

      IMHO a fat book is still the BEST way to lay a bedrock of knowledge in some general area for further study. Once you know the basics, THEN you can graze. Granted, many people never bother to lay a foundation and still manage to wing it.

    29. Re:Odd choice by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      You might be able to annotate, but until the books are really designed to be functional from a handheld device it is painful.

      As a personal example, I have a 1,000 page PDF of a code book on my iPad. Or, I did for an hour. Book couldn't load reliably, couldn't navigate the two-tiers of TOCs, and it just wasn't a logical arrangement. The navigation requires a whole new level of abstraction rather than just forward/back; search doesn't come close.

      (No, the PDF wasn't a legal offering from the publisher. The publisher refuses to offer anything electronic for this product other than a web-based subscription of inferior grade content...)

    30. Re:Odd choice by JohnBailey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Pretty much anybody who has used an e-book reader for more than five minutes could tell how this marketing effort would end. Fanboys excluded, because no doubt a Kindle lover or an iPad tit will be along any minute to relate how they now use only their device of devotion, and say how great it works for reference material.

      E-BOOK READERS ARE SHIT FOR REFERENCE MATERIAL!!!!

      Learn it.. Live with it. The electronic backpack is not here yet.

      A paper book has every reader device beaten hands down for text books. Novels are a different story.

      In all honesty, they are great for pleasure reading. I've gone through I can't remember how many books in the year and a bit I have had mine. Never a second of buyer's remorse. But for reference material, forget it.

      --
      It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.
    31. Re:Odd choice by newcastlejon · · Score: 1

      Hear , hear. Finding a few worked examples for a given topic is nigh-on impossible online!

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    32. Re:Odd choice by srmalloy · · Score: 1

      That rings very true to my own educational experience. Also, based on my own experience and from watching other students in the past, when you're looking for something specific in a textbook you're most likely going to flip through looking for a picture, diagram, or a certain page layout. You may even remember approximately how far in from the front or back of the book the section is you're looking for (ie. you may remember it's about half an inch or one finger's thickness from the back of the book). None of these visual cues would work as well with an ebook reader, and as Roesner said, would be a lot slower.

      And the Kindle falls down badly on the way you often use reference texts, where you would go to a particular part of the text, possibly from the index, based on a particular search criterion, then find you need to jump back a couple chapters to where it explains something that's glossed over in the material where you were looking, or flip back and forth between two or three possibly widely-separated points in the text that you are using in that combination only for the particular task you're doing right then, and probably never again, so bookmarks wouldn't help.

      It's still much easier to flip back and forth through large chunks of a book if it's hardcopy in your hand, and it's likely to remain that way for some time.

    33. Re:Odd choice by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      There's no real substitute for physical bookmarks either. If you are adding colored tabs, bits of paper, even highlighting as you go along, that helps create that spatial map in your head for where things are. I find that doing so electronically does not give me the same such map in my head.

      I'm now pretty much forced to use PDFs of papers entirely. I'm trying to do the lit review for my Master's thesis, and it's just not feasible to print 100 research papers and have them lying around. The best I've been able to do is to put the PDF side-by-side with the document I'm writing on a big widescreen monitor. I'd probably prefer having it in front of me, but that's what I have to work with.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    34. Re:Odd choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One thing that did irk me is that we did never use the full book, even in follow up courses. ME 352 would have Book A and we'd use chapters 1-10, but ME 452 would have Book B and we'd use 10-20. Even though they were the 'same material'.

      I had a professor in grad school who gave very useful advice about text books: Go to the library, find the recommended book on the shelf, then look at the ones near it. Buy the one that seems to work best for you. They're all going to cover the same material.

      Works great for grad school, less great for undergrad when the prof assigns problems at the ends of the chapters as homeworks. On the other hand, you could just find a friend with that text, and photocopy the problems (not the answers).

    35. Re:Odd choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So e-texts should include some metadata describing any picture - in math books this is probably trivial as the LaTeX used to compose them already includes graphic names for reference. Something like this and a search utility capable of synonyms would work. So there is a software fix for this issue.

    36. Re:Odd choice by Skater · · Score: 1

      I'm a statistician, and I have many of my most useful statistics books sitting on my shelf at my desk at work, and I refer to them from time to time (maybe once or twice a month). Most or all of my coworkers are the same way. I'm not sure how this would work in a Kindle/iPad textbook environment - would I just keep an iPad at work? (Uh, no.) Have to bring my iPad to work every day? That seems kind of cumbersome - I wouldn't need it every day for textbooks, and I can't see why I'd otherwise need it at work, and you can bet the day I'd need something from a textbook in it is the day I would've left it at home or something. (And I haven't even gotten into the problems I'd run into with security... "Hey! That Kindle/iPad looks like company property!")

    37. Re:Odd choice by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Even better... I found an e-mail from a guy in Nigeria that says all I have to do is send him my Social security number, 'Routing Number' and 'Account Number' from a check, and fax him a copy of my driver's license and passport, and he'll send me one for free, along with $100,000 cash, for passing $1,000,000 for him.

      Then I don't have to go through all the trouble of filling out some survey or completing offers.

    38. Re:Odd choice by adolf · · Score: 1

      I do the same thing when reading PDFs on the PC:

      I often go back later and remember only a vague picture of the information that I wanted, and (as you note) using the search tool is not always useful.

      So, while reading, I just tend to keep track of where I'm at in the book. Whether it be a chapter number, or the position of the scroll bar, or even the shape of the table of contents on the left hand side. This keeps me roughly aware of where I'm at in the document as I read it. Later, I can quickly jump to approximately that same point and do some quick paging around to find the exact passage that I'm looking for.

      Works for me, but then I've never had to learn to make efficient use of textbooks since I've done nearly all of my learning for the past 16 years using a computer. Not having to unlearn any familiarity with textbooks might have helped me with that...

      (Alas, this doesn't work on a Kindle since it's so slow for non-linear reading, but that's more a problem of the display tech than of electronic books in general.)

    39. Re:Odd choice by indiechild · · Score: 1

      I have a Kindle 2 and it is often very slow when doing text searching. The whole interface is just sluggish and frustrating to use. The physical keyboard is terrible too. Everything just lacks polish, and they haven't released a new firmware update for a while now.

    40. Re:Odd choice by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Surely you need books the next semester, and even a year later. Unless each book has information on everything, and it certainly wasn't this way in maths.

      Actually in maths, we only really got text books for the first year, and we would use them all the way through the honours degree. We would use other material (such as printed questions, and lots of notes), for the higher courses, such as differential equations 3, and stochastic modelling. This was at a University in Australia.

    41. Re:Odd choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amazon loves the Kindle because they have a fat profit margin on books (shipping costs less than bandwidth, no material cost), and tighter control over distribution and dissemination.

      Amazon has been making a loss on each ebook sale.

      Amazon had been buying many e-books from publishers for about thirteen dollars and selling them for $9.99, taking a loss on each book in order to gain market share and encourage sales of its electronic reading device, the Kindle.

      [Source: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/04/26/100426fa_fact_auletta%5D

    42. Re:Odd choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't Kindles offer bookmarks?

    43. Re:Odd choice by psiclops · · Score: 1

      There were some real graduate students in the mix:

      "You don't read textbooks in the same linear way as a novel," said Roesner, 23, a graduate student in computer science and engineering.

      Honestly, I tend to agree. Not having tried a Kindle myself, my opinion means little. However, I strongly suspect that I would encounter the same frustration that these people did when using it instead of textbooks.

      well this is exactly why a properly implemented ebook reader would be superior to a textbook. so i'm doing an assignment and cannot remember the page that has the formula for attaching the friggin laser to the sharks head, do I. A) look at the index shorten my query to 50 or so pages and search them? or B) use the wonders of technology to search for "friggein laser" and see where i get? now yes annotation marks can be used in a textbook, but theres no reason they could not be used in a reader and well, they require you to know what you are going to need to find later. i've never used a kindle so have no idea if any of this is possible but, instead of passing them over as inferior, we should find how "real"books beat them and implement better ways of doing such things.

      --
      i spent five minutes thinking and all i got was this crappy sig
    44. Re:Odd choice by MrCrassic · · Score: 1

      The one thing I hate about purchasing textbooks is that the most expensive ones tend to be for the "basic" subjects like Biology, Chemistry, Calculus, etc. These are the ones that would benefit most from being open-sourced, as the information they contain is highly generic in comparison to, say, microprocessor fabrication, and would save a LOT of departments money and time. Of course, this won't happen anytime soon; how else will the authors make decent royalties?

      Nonetheless, for practically all really popular textbooks in any subject, there's a PDF for that. I haven't paid for a textbook in at least two years.

    45. Re:Odd choice by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      That's pretty bad. If you had to prioritize one format to get right, pdf would be it.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    46. Re:Odd choice by Painted · · Score: 1

      You picked a quote that is probably the most telling out in the article; Textbooks and reference materials are not read in a linear way. Where I work we publish reference books as well as more traditional books, and testing the reference books on a Kindle or any other eInk based unit is an agonizing exercise in "Next PageNext PageNext Page...." for minutes on end.

      The eInk units are decent for reading stories or anything that doesn't require a bunch of navigation, but for stuff that does...

      --
      http://marsandmore.com - Posters of space, spacecraft, and astronomy.
    47. Re:Odd choice by Count+Fenring · · Score: 1

      Have you ever used one?

      As a grad student myself and a very prolific reader, I love my Kindle 6''. If I was still taking literature classes, instead of Library School classes, I would make heavy use of it for readings that don't involve secondary materials specific to editions. As it is I read the hell out of Gutenberg, Baen's Free Library, and books bought through http://webscriptions.net./

      Granted, I couldn't have afforded to buy one myself; but if I had the money, I would have, and I probably would have bought specifically the Kindle, because the other readers available had a variety of hardware or pricing issues at the time I got mine.

      As someone who's used one extensively, I'll say this - the Kindle isn't great for flipping back and forth in large works, which is a problem that needs to be solved. Being text searchable makes up for this somewhat, but the balance is moderately tipped toward paper textbooks.

      On the other hand, for articles assigned that are available in full text (or, with the DX, PDF - the 6-inch Kindle isn't really suitable for most PDFs), the Kindle is amazing. Being able to take assigned articles on the train, or just to read them on my bed without having a laptop crushing my chest, is pretty great. The eyestrain benefits are also very significant, although to someone with less terrible eyes than me, it might be less so.

    48. Re:Odd choice by Count+Fenring · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, in the U.S., that doesn't function because of copyright law and fair use limitations. Professors can copy things, but only if they're small portions of a work, and if they aren't going to be used in repeated classes, et cetera, et cetera.

      I will say that, unless they're assigning their own book (or taking illegal kickback monies), professors generally don't profit from textbook sales. And even when using their own book, the royalties are so small for any individual purchase, that they're probably making a (insert dollars, pounds, 100 yen, etc) or so over an entire class, maximum.

    49. Re:Odd choice by Count+Fenring · · Score: 1

      I've always used indexes and explicit bookmarking much more extensively than I've really used browsing in this manner, personally; not that I haven't used this method, just that, when searching for specific materials, I would generally use these methods first.

      Of course, as a Literature major, I read a LOT of unindexed works. And there, the Kindle does fall down.

      One thing I've found really hard, actually, is to switch my thinking from pages to locations. It's just an arbitrary number, which is theoretically identical in function to page number, but I'm so used to the way pages work, I almost always forget to note position in eBooks.

    50. Re:Odd choice by halcyon1234 · · Score: 1

      I had the cash and was a professor I you could make a killing off of leasing books to students.

      Better than what's happening now: professor churns out a low-grade course book, then gets it added as a mandatory book. One of my calculus profs did that, and it was the worst piece of crap book I'd ever bought. There were mistakes in several formulas. Nearly every diagram was on a different page than the descriptive text (and by that, I mean a page-flip away. Then a page flip back to re-read the text, then a page flip again to see the diagram...)

      And of course, he had already written the "second edition", so I couldn't even resell the junker.

    51. Re:Odd choice by Count+Fenring · · Score: 1

      Partial fix.

      The problem isn't getting names attached, the problem is having those names be in the human reading the book's memory when he/she goes to look for the picture/graph.

      Now, grant you, having an explicit description of each figure, and an index of figures with descriptions would be very useful. But it doesn't actually 100% solve the problem; it just substitutes a different competency for the missing one.

    52. Re:Odd choice by Count+Fenring · · Score: 1

      Note: previous post should have this text inserted: "Search utility capable of synonyms is a much harder problem than you may suspect. It's merely difficult at the word level (complicated by words with same-spelling/different meaning), but quickly spirals into deep magic territory on the phrase level.

      Add this to the problem of subject description of pictorial material, and you've quickly gotten way ahead of what we're actually capable of, at least at the price-point and effort level attached to the average textbook."

    53. Re:Odd choice by Count+Fenring · · Score: 1

      Yes.

    54. Re:Odd choice by IICV · · Score: 1

      Not really - it's one of the small Kindles, so the screen is about the size of a page of a paperback book. It doesn't refresh fast enough to do proper scrolling, so that's out. The CPU is not nearly fast enough to do any sort of PDF re-pagination in a reasonable time, so it can't do that (and even then, re-paginating a PDF that's full of figures and charts is a non-trivial task, even if you run it through a real computer). It's basically screwed

      Basically, the Kindle is useful for reading novels or other text-only things, but that's about it.

    55. Re:Odd choice by Chelloveck · · Score: 1

      Better than what's happening now: professor churns out a low-grade course book, then gets it added as a mandatory book. One of my calculus profs did that, and it was the worst piece of crap book I'd ever bought.

      Yeah, any half-assed hack professor can write his own book. I ran into the same thing several times. I was really pleased when I got a class where the professor didn't actually write the textbook, but his research formed the basis for a chapter in someone else's book. He knew his stuff!

      --
      Chelloveck
      I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
  2. Piracy solves another issue by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A fast flipping display and cheaper unit would be a better fit.Any $150 Chinese android tablet would do. The books would have to be pirated, but college kids have been doing that for ages.

    1. Re:Piracy solves another issue by rhsanborn · · Score: 1

      I look forward to a long-lasting, color, touch screen device that can accurately capture fine touch (pen) for reading and note taking. The modern convertible laptops fit the bill except for their size. The other problem being the content limitations. But, as a graduate student, I can say that I'd love to carry around a light device like a light, android based tablet instead of 2-4 textbooks.

    2. Re:Piracy solves another issue by eln · · Score: 1

      Apparently their main gripes centered around not being able to easily scribble notes in the margins. While I personally don't like writing on my textbooks, my experience buying used books tells me most students apparently do. So, if they want to be able to reach the textbook market they're going to have to come up with a way to easily write all over the pages of whatever book is being read.

    3. Re:Piracy solves another issue by Darkness404 · · Score: 0

      The problem is that LCD screens are a pain to read for extended periods of time on.

      I've read books on my laptop before and I can say with absolute certainty I'd rather read a book on my B&N nook than on an LCD any day. Yeah, LCDs aren't bad for graphics heavy things, but reading walls of text can certainly cause eyestrain.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    4. Re:Piracy solves another issue by schon · · Score: 2, Funny

      I know - sell the DX with a stack of post-its! The students can write on the post-its, and stick them over the passages they want to highlight!

      Dammit - now I'm sure Amazon will patent this, and nobody else will be able to use it!

    5. Re:Piracy solves another issue by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That is all in your head.

      How do you work?
      I look at a pair of LCDs all day, then I go home and use another one as a TV. Then I read books on my droid. I have none of these problems.

    6. Re:Piracy solves another issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have none of these problems.

      Yet.

    7. Re:Piracy solves another issue by confused+one · · Score: 1

      It's not in his head. Your lucky and he's not. I was having problems with occasional migraines for a while, associated with staring at a monitor for 10-12 hours a day. A change in eye prescription made it better.

    8. Re:Piracy solves another issue by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · · Score: 1

      How on Earth do you know it's all in their head? I agree completely with the statement that E-Ink is much easier on the eyes than LCD. Anything with a backlight is going to strain the eyes. I'm still reasonably young, but decades of TV and computers will no doubt take their toll and my eyes will probably be near useless come retirement.

      --
      "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
    9. Re:Piracy solves another issue by John+Hasler · · Score: 4, Funny

      > How on Earth do you know it's all in their head?

      Because that's where their eyes are.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    10. Re:Piracy solves another issue by Bigbutt · · Score: 1

      Been using computers since 1979, from big green screen or amber screen monitors to B/W and color TVs on up to CRTs and now LCDs.

      For me it isn't "yet" yet.

      [John]

      --
      Shit better not happen!
    11. Re:Piracy solves another issue by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      That's not luck that is doing what you are supposed to do. Eye doctors exist for a reason.

    12. Re:Piracy solves another issue by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      My eyes unassisted are near useless already, nice pair of contacts and I see better than pretty much any unaided human. I have been staring at brightly lit displays for decades.

    13. Re:Piracy solves another issue by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      It certainly is not in his groin or any part of his torso.. In fact all medical doctors will agree that it is in fact in his head.

      "It's all in your head" is actually 100% accurate.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    14. Re:Piracy solves another issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It depends more on the background lightning.
      At work, it's usually daytime, and the workplace comes replete with strip lighting, so the screen brightness compared to the background isn't that great.
      Go home though, and it's night, with usually less intense lighting (perhaps a reading lamp) and the lighting has a different color spectrum than strip lighting. This makes the harsh contrast between black/white backlit LCDs stand out even more. It really is a strain.
      LCD TVs aren't that much of a problem since you're usually just watching a moving (multicolor/intensity)image, rather than concentrating on reading.

    15. Re:Piracy solves another issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, things with a backlight will only cause eye strain if the backlight is too bright or too dim compared to ambient light. Your eyes can't really tell the difference between reflected and emitted light, so if you get eye strain it is most likely you are using your laptop under artificial light with the backlight set too bright.

  3. Holy Cow by jlechem · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The tried and true method of doing things that is known to work outdid the new shiny?

    Amazing......

    --
    Hold up, wait a minute, let me put some pimpin in it
    1. Re:Holy Cow by damn_registrars · · Score: 0

      The tried and true method of doing things that is known to work outdid the new shiny?

      Amazing......

      If you were an MBA student you probably would find that amazing.

      --
      Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    2. Re:Holy Cow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup, early adopters are often surprised by that.

      On the other hand, the naysayers are often equally surprised when the new tech takes a decisive revenge years or decades later.

      Remember when in the 1970's a lot of people predicted that LEDs would replace incandescents? It sure took a while, but yeah, it seems like they were right.

    3. Re:Holy Cow by Ibag · · Score: 1

      Yes, this time, but how do you think that the world changes with technology? Sometimes, we find better ways of doing things, and with a fair bit of luck, those better ways become the popular ways, and then become the tried and true ways. Things that survive the test of time tend to be good, but you shouldn't conflate "good" with "better than the new thing". I mean, if not for technology finding better ways to do things, you would be forced to peddle your sarcastic remarks at the local bar, where you risk being punched in the face. Are the old ways really that much better?

    4. Re:Holy Cow by mgblst · · Score: 1

      I know, your fancy iPhones will never replace just shouting really loud, and how can an air-o-plane ever replace walking everywhere.

      What a brilliant point you make, every new shiny thing is outdone by the trid and true method. Thanks professor.

    5. Re:Holy Cow by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      But he has a point. Sometimes the technology isn't ready yet, but he didn't say it never would be. Remember those mobile phones you needed a rucksack to carry?

      The kindle is a Sopwith Camel. It might be an F-16 one day.

      Shit.

      I mean the kindle is a Model-T. It might be a Lexus RX one day.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    6. Re:Holy Cow by Omestes · · Score: 1

      I know, your fancy iPhones will never replace just shouting really loud...

      From my experience most iPhone users (and cell users in general) sill just shout really loud, now they are just do it with a silly thing stuck in their ear, and at no one in particular.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
  4. iPad will pass with flying colors... if... by scottwilkins · · Score: 0

    This use scenario seems much more apt for an iPad, due to it's much heavier flexibility. But, only if proper applications are written to fit the student's needs better.

    1. Re:iPad will pass with flying colors... if... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Well, it doesn't look like it occured to Apple to address this use case so perhaps it's a horserace at this point.

      Or perhaps some other dark horse will sneak up on both of them.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    2. Re:iPad will pass with flying colors... if... by mldi · · Score: 1

      This use scenario seems much more apt for an iPad, due to it's much heavier flexibility. But, only if proper applications are written to fit the student's needs better.

      Or, they could just use a full out tablet with a stylus that's more suited for this kind of thing. I did it for math classes... it was wonderful being able to print off my notes.

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
    3. Re:iPad will pass with flying colors... if... by DrXym · · Score: 1, Insightful
      This use scenario seems much more apt for an iPad, due to it's much heavier flexibility. But, only if proper applications are written to fit the student's needs better.

      I don't see the iPad being especially more useful since students can hardly take notes like a two year old finger painting. Even attempting to type on the thing is hardly practical either, and certainly worse than using a regular netbook.

    4. Re:iPad will pass with flying colors... if... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because steve jobs will show up and kick you in the nuts if you dare to use a stylus.

      You know, a pen shaped device that emulates pen like behavior on a touchscreen.

      You must be a MBA!

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    5. Re:iPad will pass with flying colors... if... by DrXym · · Score: 1

      The iPad uses a capacitive screen meaning your stylus would have to be capacitive also and your hand (which is also capacitive) resting on the screen would have to be ignored by the iPad. So what are the chances of that working? Of course students could hold the stylus while wearing non conductive gloves which would be enormously practical I'm sure.

    6. Re:iPad will pass with flying colors... if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From a small google search.. Highly successful.

      did you even look?

      Sorry, you must not have fingers....
      http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ipad+stylus

      Glad to help the handicapped.

    7. Re:iPad will pass with flying colors... if... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Of course students could hold the stylus while wearing non conductive gloves which would be enormously practical I'm sure.

      You know, most universities have heat. I'm guessing up there in greenland you guys must hold classes out on the ice.

      Here in the USA, 98.976% of all students dont wear gloves while in class. I'm betting that most of Europe and the rest of the world the same ratio is common. Although Russian Gulag schools in the Ukrane might still not have heat.

      I am unsure of Antarctica... They might always wear gloves, but last I knew they did not have a University.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    8. Re:iPad will pass with flying colors... if... by DrXym · · Score: 1
      From a small google search.. Highly successful.

      Clearly the point I made sailed completely over your head. Capacitive screens do not work on pressure, but on conductance. Just resting your hand on the iPad while writing would cause multiple points of contact and confuse the hell out of the device. Watch this review of such a stylus in action and see if the clue sinks in - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QSi59bMfWY. You would have to write without touching the screen, wear gloves or put some non conductive surface under your hand to take notes. Utterly impractical and completely stupid. Even if the problem of writing could be overcome, capacitive screens aren't very precise which means you have to write in large letters with thick lines.

      Any sort of tablet device that expects to be used for note taking must support a resistive touch screen or some kind of hybrid resistive / capacitive screen.

  5. Print was first, iPad Comes second, kindle last. by irreverant · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Coming from a generation that has seen the birth of the internet and school instruction online. I have to say, print is dead, or close to it, if the kindle or iPad have anything to do with it. It's promising that students gave honest reviews of the kindle as a tool for instruction, the kindle offers a lot of promise as a teaching tool, with it being a test and LOTS of room for improvement, maybe with all the honest and constructive criticism amazon will make many new improvements that will help individuals become better students. However, I can speculate that by shear performance alone, the kindle has 'a-ways' to go when competing with the iPad. Although I am not a fan of the iPad it can be a great tool for students. It will be interesting to see what direction amazon takes with this device.

    --
    Of all the things I've lost; I miss my mind the most. - Mark Twain
  6. sony got this right by escay · · Score: 3, Interesting

    for scribbling margin notes, highlighting, syncing notes with PC/mac - and more, the Sony Daily Edition perfectly fits the bill. That device is the right size, feature list and perhaps the correct price point. Sony should be peddling that to the universities to finally gain some respectable foothold in the e-book industry.

    1. Re:sony got this right by Wovel · · Score: 1

      How do you scribble notes? (I did not see anything on their site. Is it with a pen? This is one of the few cases I think a pen would be handy on a device.

      If it was slightly bigger and had a way to quickly mark up the text, it would have real promise.

    2. Re:sony got this right by mcgrew · · Score: 5, Insightful

      the Sony Daily Edition perfectly fits the bill.

      It sounds like it would be great, if anybody but Sony made it. Sorry, but after they rooted my PC there's no way I'll buy anything with a Sony logo, ESPECIALLY computer gear. A company that would put rootkits on legitimately purchased music CDs would stoop to anything.

    3. Re:sony got this right by tao · · Score: 1

      Yup, you take notes using a stylus (search for the word stylus on the page and you'll find it).

    4. Re:sony got this right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any PC that can be rooted by inserting a music CD is fair game. Thank Sony for reminding you that you bought junk.

    5. Re:sony got this right by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nope.

      Give me a 8.5" by 11" screen. Sorry but for textbooks I want a full page not something I have to scroll. Why dont these companies make one that is the size of a full printed page of text?

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    6. Re:sony got this right by gnalre · · Score: 1

      Sounds good, but actually it doesn't work very well. e-ink is just not responsive enough for that sort of application. You will find the text lagging behind the pen, which makes it frustrating .

      Also add that Sony just don't seem to get usability, thats why Apple have been beating them for the last 10 years.

      --
      Choose your allies carefully, it is highly unlikely you will be held accountable for the actions of your enemies
    7. Re:sony got this right by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      My daughter ran the program deliberately (it was her CD), never dreaming that a reputable corporation would deliberately distribute malware. It could have happened on any computer running any operating system.

      What it taught us was that Sony isn't a reputable corporation, and anyone who would buy ANYTHING from them is either ignorant or stupid.

  7. what do you expect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The kindle would be successful in a world where piracy only happens at sea and where computers only serve one or two functions.

    1. Re:what do you expect by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      Because it is impossible to pirate books to a Kindle?

      See, the nice thing about the Kindle is that its easier to purchase legitimate books than it is to pirate them. That is a good thing, yeah there is still DRM and the like, but in all honesty, devices that make it easier to purchase and use purchased content then pirated is a step in the right direction because it means that they have finally realized that the customer is not their enemy.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    2. Re:what do you expect by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      If there is DRM they have not realized that at all. They are just hiding it better.

    3. Re:what do you expect by bonius_rex · · Score: 1

      Because it is impossible to pirate books to a Kindle?

      It is trivially easy to read pirated books on Kindle. Not that I have done this, mind you, but I hear that there are websites out there with ebook torrents on them, and there's this program you can get to convert them into a Kindle-readable format.

      The Kindle device doesn't require DRM, the Amazon bookstore does. These are two separate things that people seem to keep mixing up.

  8. Sounds like Amazon was really trying to get some exposure/press. Of all of the feedback I've seen in TFA I would say it was "obvious". I'm sure now they have a nice good demographic targeted, complete with contact info etc, to spearhead their pre-planned campaign when they launch a device that does most of what was requested of the DX.

    Disclaimer: I own a DX

    --
    I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
  9. Electronics != Best Solution by Cryonix · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Using the Kindle, iPad, or any other electronic device is not going be wildly accepted by the college crowd. I find it hard to imagine studying without being able to mark in the book, fold pages, constantly flip through entire sections, or any of the features that make physical books great. Not to mention resale of DRM is non-existent.

    1. Re:Electronics != Best Solution by jadrian · · Score: 4, Interesting

      True, that said it could have an amazing future in academia if they just come up with something good enough. I have hundreds of papers lying around, keep reprinting stuff I can't find, have plenty of notes on some and taking them with me when traveling is a pain. Honestly I am dying to have a nice device where I can easily read my scientific papers, tag them with keywords and bibliographic info for easy searches, add notes and what not.

    2. Re:Electronics != Best Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are right for the moment being. But I would gladly bet a $100 against your $1 that the paper book will be replaced within about 20 years.

      The reason? Well, one being search and one being that you can have moving images, changing content and dynamic, social content on an electronic device.

    3. Re:Electronics != Best Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      “Papers” on iPad?

  10. The ownership issues would be more important by gurps_npc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The fact that Amazon wants to be able to reach inside your kindle and remove things, even things you put notes in sort of destroys the value of the Kindle as an academic tool.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by QuantumRiff · · Score: 1

      It does kind of make you wonder what happens at the end of your Term to your textbook. Are they going to have the publishers demand that they yank it?

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    2. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by lymond01 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Teacher: "We'll be using History of the Modern World, Third Edition. You can verify this by viewing page 212. If it states that Eurasia has always been at war with Oceania, then you have the Third Edition. Anything else is wrong and you should click "Update E-Book" at your earliest convenience."

    3. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that Amazon wants to be able to reach inside your kindle and remove things, even things you put notes in sort of destroys the value of the Kindle as an academic tool.

      I disagree. When it comes down to it, most people just aren't that ideological when it comes to information freedom. In other words, they don't care.

      If it works, is cheap, and is lighter than carrying aroud a few books, college students will ignore things like DRM and remote revocation.

    4. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by Mascot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As far as I've read, it's the publishers that want this, not Amazon.

      I haven't myself done a lot of research, admittedly (cause I don't really care, if they cease to want to sell me books for my Kindle, I can always download them from other sources), but a friend of mine keeps bringing up stories about publishers pushing for things like expiration dates on ebooks.

      We've been here before, oh so many times. Cassette tapes will kill the music industry. Video tape recorders will kill the movie industry. Illegal music downloads will kill the music industry. Readily accessible, easy to buy, ebooks will kill the book industry.. Sigh.

      I'm not amazed when an industry refuses to listen to predictions, however realistic they may seem. But that they still don't get it, after multi-billion dollar industries have gone before them and shown what works and what does not, does somewhat baffle me still.

      Ah well, let the publishers dig their own graves. I've read a few decent self-published $2 novels lately, so there doesn't seem to be any reason to worry. There'll still be stuff to read.

      Oh, yeah, on the topic. 10 minutes worth of using the Kindle would've negated any need for the article's test. It doesn't take longer than that to rule it out as a study aid. It's simply too limited, too slow, too cumbersome to do the job.

    5. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by DriedClexler · · Score: 4, Funny

      What would be really funny is if someone bought the novel 1984 on Kindle and then Amazon came and forced an update that deleted it!

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    6. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      As far as I've read, it's the publishers that want this, not Amazon.

      As far as I've read, Amazon wants the publishers on board, so if the publishers want it, then Amazon does want it.

      Remember, Amazon illegally (in my opinion) deleted a book from the Kindle because Amazon violated the copyright and found that illegally stealing the book back to be more convenient for them than actually paying for the stolen content. That's not the action of someone that takes the high road but is forced to slum it with the evil publishers.

    7. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by Mascot · · Score: 1

      "If the publishers want it, Amazon wants it" strikes me as a somewhat silly statement. That's like saying we want roads so we want taxes. Reality is, we'd love roads with no taxes, but we see the connection between the two.

      I don't know the details of the 1984 fiasco, but the rights holders don't _have_ to sell Amazon the rights. They may well have tried to obtained it, failed, and done the only thing left that they could legally do.

    8. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by advocate_one · · Score: 1

      worse, Amazon want to take the comments you scribble and make them available to other "owners" of the same book... currently it will be opt in, but can you really believe that the checkbox is being honoured?

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    9. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      That's like saying we want roads so we want taxes. Reality is, we'd love roads with no taxes, but we see the connection between the two.

      I guess I see it differently. I want taxes. I know they buy things that I need, so I associate the two. I understand that if they taxed me and burnt the money, that I'd not like taxes. So that can be taken as you say, but then if I want roads, but they only build roads where I don't need them and can't use them, I'd not be enthused about the idea of roads in general either.

      I don't know the details of the 1984 fiasco, but the rights holders don't _have_ to sell Amazon the rights. They may well have tried to obtained it, failed, and done the only thing left that they could legally do.

      They broke the law. There's nothing they could do to unbreak the law. The "fix" was to get permission from the copyright holders so that they wouldn't be taken to court. They could have done nothing and be on the hook for a possible large judgment against them. They didn't work with the copyright holders to fix their error. They just made sure if they deleted them they'd be off the hook. Then they deleted an item already bought and paid for. That's a violation of law, and they are being sued for it (we'll have to wait at least a couple years for the end of that). They essentially figured out they sold books they didn't have the rights to. Their two legal options were to buy permission retroactively, or go to trial for copyright violations (probably not as bad as it could be, since the person posting it to Amazon did have the rights, but Amazon didn't know they didn't have the rights, it's a mess because the book in question is in the Public Domain in some locations, but not others). Instead, they chose to break into private property and destroy legally owned private property through unauthorized access.

    10. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by Mascot · · Score: 1

      Instead, they chose to break into private property and destroy legally owned private property through unauthorized access.

      I don't know how our set of laws compare in this area, but if I buy stolen goods, I don't own it. If the police later track down those goods, they can take it back and give it to the original owner, and I'm out my cash. At least Amazon fully refunded the customers?

      If it's the case that they didn't attempt to obtain the rights retroactively, I think that's a pity. But, not having been in their shoes, I suppose it might have just not been worth the hassle to navigate the quagmire of rights for one specific book. Not that that makes the incident easier to swallow. The only way to avoid Amazon backpedaling due to someone threatening to sue them, is to never enable your Kindle's wireless connection. Which would be a pity as well.

      I think the practice of publishers in this digital age is absolutely insane. Regional restrictions on books, refusing to allow text-to-speech to be enabled for many books (the primary reason I see for people cracking Kindle's DRM is to enable TTS), pushing for a rental model instead of ownership. As I said originally, they seem to have learned jack squat from those industries that went before them. I buy more books for my Kindle than I have physical books in ages. Because it's easy and convenient. Start screwing me over, and I'll pirate books instead.

    11. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by Shagg · · Score: 1

      Don't laugh, it already happened.

      "Amazon Erases Orwell Books From Kindle"
      http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html

      --
      Unix is user friendly, it's just selective about who its friends are.
    12. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by Shagg · · Score: 1

      I don't know how our set of laws compare in this area, but if I buy stolen goods, I don't own it.

      There's no such thing as "stolen goods" in copyright law. It was Amazon's distribution that violated copyright law, not the end user's possession of those files.

      --
      Unix is user friendly, it's just selective about who its friends are.
    13. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      ...I have now lost the ability to be surprised at the shit companies will pull :-(

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    14. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by Mascot · · Score: 1

      Yes, we all know that (well, of US copyright law at any rate). We're not discussing the definition of theft vs copyright infringement here. At least I'm not.

      It was an illustration of a point. That point being that being once removed from the crime does not necessarily mean you have any right to the merchandise, whether we're talking theft or infringement.

    15. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      That point being that being once removed from the crime does not necessarily mean you have any right to the merchandise, whether we're talking theft or infringement.

      You are making a logical point that doesn't stand in law. There is specific law regarding theft that indicates the ownership of the item rests with the original owner, even after legally sold. Such legal doctrine doesn't exist for copyright infringement. The act of infringing is the illegal act. The copies, once out of the hands of the infringer, aren't "illegal" anymore. It's a matter for civic courts and isn't coded into the laws. I'm sure that if the copyright holders sued every individual owner of the 1984 book obtained through Kindle that they'd win. But the law doesn't automatically revert "ownership" because there's no "ownership" lost. The owners of the 1984 copyright have lost no copies, and as such have no need for them to be replaced. And, if they are compensated for the created copies, why would they need them back? The offer of "if we get them back, will you not sue us?" from Amazon was perfectly valid, but they didn't get them back legally.

      Even if it's determined that you had received stolen goods illegally, the police don't get to drop a bomb on your house to make sure they destroy the item you shouldn't have. They have to respond reasonably. And Amazon's response was illegal. They violated the law and their own TOS in "retrieving" the copies. But again, they didn't actually retrieve them, there was nothing "lost" by the copyright holders, and they just deleted extra copies after an agreement to limit their legal liability. But, since you see "theft" and "copyright" as the same, you wouldn't recognize that the code of law shares nothing between the two. So assumptions of "this happens in theft" are irrelevant to infringement cases.

    16. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by Mascot · · Score: 1

      But, since you see "theft" and "copyright" as the same

      Brush up on your reading comprehension.

    17. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      My comprehension is fine. Saying "they are completely different, but I'll directly compare them as if they are the same" is a dishonest word game that if someone agrees with you, you say "see, I'm right" and if they don't, you whine that they aren't listening to you.

      You are 100% wrong. Theft is criminal and the police can seize stolen property. Single-case infringement, like someone receiving a single copy of 1984, is a civil matter and no one can just seize property without a court case. You are mixing civil and criminal issues (understandable because Amazon broke criminal law, in addition to civil law, but the recipients either broke no law or broke civil law). But to assert "I know they aren't the same, but I'm going to directly compare them anyway" is either viewing them as the same or playing word games that border on lying (saying something you don't mean is a lie, so it feels like a lie when you say you don't see them as the same, then treat them that way anyway).

      Since you will lie to make up false analogies to whine about, and you ignore the actual issues regarding it, I can only assume you know you are wrong, but don't like being wrong. Theft and copyright infringement are completely unrelated in both law and logic. As such, all such analogies fail miserably. I'm sorry you are so offended when someone proves you wrong. But if you'd stop lying to justify your flawed opinion on law, you'll get fewer people calling you a liar in a public forum. Either debate the issues or not, but concocting word games to drop out of a discussion while claiming the higher ground of them not understanding makes you a hypocritical liar. Well, that in addition to being wrong about civil law, criminal law, theft laws, laws on possession of stolen property, laws on copyright infringement for profit, laws on receiving infringed material, and well, any issue related to theft or copyright, apparently. So thanks for your opinion, but it isn't based in law or logic and directly contradictory such that you are either lying to yourself or us, and given the snide manner in which you tried to use to terminate the conversation with yourself as the "winner" I assume you are lying to us.

    18. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by Mascot · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, you're way past my "too anal for there to be any point discussing with" threshold. Not to mention confrontational. I don't discuss religion either, for the same reason: It's a waste of everybody's time.

      I feel no need to spend inordinate amounts of time in order to feel I've "won" an argument on the internet. So, congratulations, victory's all yours.

    19. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The law is very specific. There is no means for your opinion modifying the truth. That you think there is just indicates your ignorance or myopia. When you are posting verifiably incorrect information, you shouldn't be surprised when people call you on it. Your opinion on what "should" happen is irrelevant to the truth. Too bad you evidently value your incorrect opinion above the truth, and any attempt by someone else to explain the law or whatever else it is you are crapping all over with incorrect opinions stated as fact is met with resistance.

    20. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by lymond01 · · Score: 1

      I'm sort of torn between thinking DriedClexler's first post was sarcasm and Shagg's post was the result of sudden Whoosh, or DriedClexler only just found the Internet.

      Tell me because I'm truly curious which.

    21. Re:The ownership issues would be more important by Shagg · · Score: 1

      That point being that being once removed from the crime does not necessarily mean you have any right to the merchandise, whether we're talking theft or infringement.

      That is wrong, and it goes directly to the heart of the difference between theft and copyright infringement. The concept of "stolen property" does not exist in copyright. Copyright law is about the act of distribution, not ownership of the merchandise.

      --
      Unix is user friendly, it's just selective about who its friends are.
  11. Upgrades? by Itninja · · Score: 1

    The company last month announced software upgrades enabling Kindle users to sort books into collections and zoom in on PDF documents.

    "This is precisely the sort of dynamic, positive thinking that we so desperately need in these trying times of crisis and universal broo-ha-ha."
    Seriously, Amazon is touting these basic features as 'upgrades'. Like Apples 'wait...you want copy AND paste???'

    --
    I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
    1. Re:Upgrades? by Mascot · · Score: 1

      Amazon labels them as "upgrades", because they are. The basis for comparison being the previous version of the software, no matter how gimped that was. Hell, they still don't get it. Collections? Great, I can make a Fantasy "folder", and inside that other folders for each of the authors or series. Keep it nice and tidy. Err, no. No hierarchy possible. What the? What century are they living in? It's still an upgrade though, and a much wanted one.

      Apple, on the other hand, would have done the same and held a huge event where they used "innovation", "it's that easy" and "isn't that great?" at least once every three sentences.

      That's the different between reality and reality distortion fields. :P

    2. Re:Upgrades? by TrancePhreak · · Score: 1

      Up until then Apple would also call it unnecessary, a problematic approach, or other such nonsense.

      --

      -]Phreak Out[-
  12. Correction to Summary by sh00z · · Score: 2, Informative

    That's Seton Hill, not Seton Hall.

  13. As many as...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, at the very worst case, twenty percent of the students didn't think the Amazon Kindle was crap? Not everyone needs to highlight text or write in margins. The color graphs and charts is a kick to the jimmies, sure - but if you need to read something, and you don't do any of the aforementioned? Sounds like a nice shoe-in.

  14. I can see it now... by Cornwallis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The greatest "advantage" to e-readers, or whatever the hell they are being called this week, is that publishers will be able speed up the scam of planned obsolescence in the college textbook scam/game.

    Now my kid buys a $300 "required" book only to be told it has NO resale value come next semester because it is the "old edition". With Kindle, et al, that planned obsolescence can take place FASTER.

    Now get off my lawn.

    1. Re:I can see it now... by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 1

      Now my kid buys a $300 "required" book only to be told it has NO resale value come next semester because it is the "old edition". With Kindle, et al, that planned obsolescence can take place FASTER.

      Yes, but so much more conveniently...

      No longer will your kid have to stand in long lines at the college bookstore waiting to be ripped off. Now he can be ripped off in the comfort of his own dorm room.

      --
      This ain't rocket surgery.
    2. Re:I can see it now... by Dan+Ost · · Score: 1

      The most expensive book I was forced to purchase was, perhaps $120. Most were between $50 and $80.

      Was my experience atypical?

      --

      *sigh* back to work...
    3. Re:I can see it now... by mcgrew · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Downside: you can't resell the "book". Upside? The Pirate Bay and a netbook. Who needs a Kindle?

    4. Re:I can see it now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      30 years ago I was buying text books costing £20 or more; in terms of income that could well be $300 in todays money.

    5. Re:I can see it now... by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      If you were an engineer yes, it was atypical. If you weren't an engineer then sounds about right.

    6. Re:I can see it now... by confused+one · · Score: 1

      yes. consider yourself lucky. With university physics, engineering and math texts, $200 wasn't uncommon.

    7. Re:I can see it now... by Matrix14 · · Score: 1

      That turns out to already be true. An enormous number of textbooks can be found in P2P networks and torrents.

    8. Re:I can see it now... by Dan+Ost · · Score: 1

      Really? I was a CS/EE double-major. Even the books that I bought once and used for 2 or 3 related courses were still less than $120 each.

      --

      *sigh* back to work...
    9. Re:I can see it now... by dnahelicase · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, it will be the opposite. No longer will textbook manufacturers have to update so quickly in order to make the books obsolete. From now on, the book is YOUR edition

      YOU will own the book meaning nobody else can have it. It will have no resale value because you paid for in on your account and nobody else will be able to use it unless they can sync a kindle/ipad/ereader on your account.

      Profs might actually like this better because books might change less, and book publishers might even give you updates for free/cheap, but everyone will have to buy it.

      Of course, some kids will pirate, but many "value-added" features on websites will require a registered key to work. Or they might give you a cheaper "rental" option that expires after the semester.

    10. Re:I can see it now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It depends. If e-book readers that have better performance than the Kindle become commonplace and cheaper, you can bet that more instructors will write their own darn textbook, sans publisher, and put the epub document on the course web site for free or nearly so.

      At least, that's my plan. My goal would be to rely on my own sources and/or free ones for the needed graphics, write the text myself, and cut the publishers out completely. At that point the issue of new editions updating the old ones doesn't matter.

      I don't think textbook publishers truly appreciate how close to the edge they are once writers don't have to go through the hassle of getting their work onto paper in order to distribute it to students. They may be thinking "Imagine all the wonderful DRM we can deploy -- expiry dates!" but I'm thinking "I don't need you anymore."

    11. Re:I can see it now... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      and your kid will STILL pay $300.00 for that ebook.

      $595 for reader.
      $1600.00 for this semesters ebooks.
      $0.00 at the end because you cant sell ebooks.

      It's all a plan to royally screw students. I really hope that ebook piracy becomes insanely rampant in textbooks. Those thieves utterly deserve it.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    12. Re:I can see it now... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      "good morning class.... This morning I need everyone to give me their textbook serial number. if you dont have one you will be failed for the class for stealing my grand work of art that is the textbook... Also after this I will require everyone to buy a new version as I changed the words in 3 chapters to fix spelling errors.... failure to do this will result in a significant reduction in your grade. as My book is a WORK OF ART!"

      the instructor should never be allowed to force the use of his book unless the book is given to the class for free.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    13. Re:I can see it now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ha ha silly American Text book market. I study EEE at Imperial College London and have no "required" books, I have some I purchased myself for background and the most expensive is £30 new. Most are second hand and cost less than £10.

    14. Re:I can see it now... by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      Never buy a college text book until the first class in which the teacher asks you to pull it out. At that point you claim you forgot it and buy it before your next class. I did this all the way through college and ended up not needing over half my textbooks. Scam indeed.

    15. Re:I can see it now... by cervo · · Score: 1

      College book stores seem to have increased their rip off price. I went to undergrad 1998-2002 and most of my books were 70-100 with the occasional $120 book (ie Probability/Statistics). The prices were not that much more than amazon on many of the books and I could justify the extra as a "convenience" fee. I also enjoyed walking through the bookstore and reading the other computer science books, I even bought interesting books from classes I didn't take.... Also for classes not in Mathematics/Science I would often buy used books. Quite often the new book would be 100, it would be bought back for $20, and sold used at like $50. The used books were a rip off but now they are worse....

      In 2009 I began graduate school. Most of the books are a total rip off. Also the text books are now locked away so you need to present registration information in order to get the book for your class. I had one book that was $150 brand new, and the used version was $90. Meanwhile on amazon I could buy the book for $80 new.... I told the book store to keep the book and ordered it. The same happens for many of the books, amazon has the book $30 or $60 or even $100 cheaper. The used situation is even worse, they still buy back for $20 or maybe $25 if feeling generous, but now instead of selling at $40 or $50 they'll sell the same book at $90 or $100.... Even books I used as an undergrad were out of wack. I even visited my undergrad book store and found the prices similarly jacked up and the books all locked.

      I'm not sure why they lock the books up though. Maybe the stores are losing business to Amazon/B&N so whereas before there would be tons of extra copies, now they are more cash strapped and can only afford to buy exactly the amount for each class (or maybe even less than the students in each class) and can't afford people not in the class buying the books? Or maybe somehow keeping the books locked up won't let people browse and realize they don't need the book, or that they can go get it on amazon? or maybe somehow locking it behind makes it more "official". I don't know....

      But I do know that my graduate school and my undergrad school have jacked the prices up a lot. And whereas as an undergrad I would buy from the bookstore and take the $10 or $15 savings hit from Amazon, now I order from amazon even if I get the book a bit late. Even with standard shipping the Amazon price still wins by a lot...

    16. Re:I can see it now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about a $50-100 e-text that has no resale value vs a $150 text? Or perhaps a $50 for semester access, $150 for lifetime access option? There are some colleges with textbook rental setups that this could be applied to.

    17. Re:I can see it now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A few advantages that you may not have thought of...

      1) Initial sale prices should be somewhat cheaper.
      2) Having all your text books with you at all times. This includes text books from previous classes you might have taken that are relevant (prerequisite, etc) to the one you're in now.
      3) grep "thing I need to find" 1000page.ebook
      4) Dorm rooms are small and books take up space.
      5) You can put your textbooks on your laptop if you don't want to bring your e-reader.
      6) Copy "10-line bit I'm quoting", paste into paper.
      7) Stripping the DRM is easy, if you're not bothered by the consequences. This allows you to split the cost of textbooks with friends.
      8) Introducing anything technical into the college experience is a good thing for us nerds. I feel like half of my college hookups started out with "help me get online" requests.

      I wish we'd had ebooks when I was in school.

    18. Re:I can see it now... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      When I was in college, I only had one instructor who had us read HIS book. IINM I still have the book, decades later. I wonder how many of today's students will still have their Kindle files thirty years from now?

  15. Can the iPad beat the Kindle? by Linux_ho · · Score: 1

    That's like asking whether a sloth can outrun a tortoise. It probably can, but what does it take to convince people that there are a lot of other, probably better, options?

    --
    include $sig;
    1;
    1. Re:Can the iPad beat the Kindle? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      At that link, I'm seeing a family of heavy convertible Windows laptop/tablets of the type that haven't been selling in the last decade that Microsoft/PC vendors have been trying to promote them. At 3 times the cost of an iPad or a Kindle.

      Massive fail.

    2. Re:Can the iPad beat the Kindle? by Linux_ho · · Score: 1

      I only looked at the top link: the lightweight multitouch netbook. So I'm really sorry if I've offended your sensibilities. Here, maybe this will help.

      --
      include $sig;
      1;
    3. Re:Can the iPad beat the Kindle? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Then it would have made more sense to link to the page that you looked at, rather than a Google search page containing a variety of devices. Something like this: http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/10/lenovo-ideapad-s10-3t-review/
      (They didn't like it. Have you actually tried one?)

  16. $498 way too high for a unitasker by walterbyrd · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I am surprised anybody buys it. You can buy an iPad for about the same price, and the iPad does far more.

    Arguably the kindle is better for just reading - still.

    Sears has the "Aluratek LIBRE eBook Reader PRO" for $99, and buy.com has the "Ectaco jetBOOK LITE e-Book Reader" also for $99.

    http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00309013000P?vName=Computers%20&%20Electronics&cName=PortableElectronics&sName=MP3%20Players&psid=FROOGLE01&sid=IDx20070921x00003a

    http://www.buy.com/prod/ectaco-jetbook-lite-e-book-reader/q/listingid/84607877/loc/111/213401968.html

    1. Re:$498 way too high for a unitasker by slyrat · · Score: 2, Informative

      I am surprised anybody buys it. You can buy an iPad for about the same price, and the iPad does far more.

      Arguably the kindle is better for just reading - still.

      Sears has the "Aluratek LIBRE eBook Reader PRO" for $99, and buy.com has the "Ectaco jetBOOK LITE e-Book Reader" also for $99.

      http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00309013000P?vName=Computers%20&%20Electronics&cName=PortableElectronics&sName=MP3%20Players&psid=FROOGLE01&sid=IDx20070921x00003a

      http://www.buy.com/prod/ectaco-jetbook-lite-e-book-reader/q/listingid/84607877/loc/111/213401968.html

      The reason that the kindle / sony reader / nook are better than these $99 readers is because they use e-ink. Which really is a different feel for reading and viewing. If you haven't seen it then you don't realize how much of a difference it brings over the other display types. It is also why they are better at just plain reading then the iPad ever can be just because of eye strain levels.

    2. Re:$498 way too high for a unitasker by walterbyrd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I dunno. $498 still seems insanely high. I can get a netbook for $199, or a really nice laptop for $450.

      http://www.techdealdigger.com/pr/cheap-acer-aspire-one-aod250-1151-101-inch-black-netbook-deals/3391

      http://www.dealhack.com/archives/2010/05/133_hp_pavilion_dm3_ultrathin.html

      In many ways netbooks and notebooks are superior for reading ebooks, especially ebooks in PDF format. Of course, netbooks and notebooks do far more than just read ebooks.

      BTW: the $99 readers use e-Paper, which seems like it might be e-Ink by another name.

    3. Re:$498 way too high for a unitasker by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      the etaco is a utter piece of crap. It's PDF rendering is horrible at best.

      I have one here. I should have known better with the name e-TACO!

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    4. Re:$498 way too high for a unitasker by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

      the etaco is a utter piece of crap. It's PDF rendering is horrible at best.

      Isn't that true for any dedicated ebook reader? Trying to read a PDF on an iPod Touch also sucks.

      Maybe it's best to just use a $199 netbook? A netbook is far more versatile, and can handle any format.

  17. Makes Sense by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

    So you mean they chose MBA students to test the applicability of a device for students' use?

    They would have tried special ed kids, but they didn't want all the user reports written in crayon.

    --
    Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
    1. Re:Makes Sense by peragrin · · Score: 2, Funny

      So they settled for user reports written in Powerpoint?

      I don't think it is any better. in fact I think Crayon is a much better tool for reports than powerpoint.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
  18. a tool for the wrong job by rev_sanchez · · Score: 1

    The Kindle doesn't do Facebook or IM so it is not going to work well for what people are doing in class with computeresque devices. The iPad types too slow, netbooks have too small of a screen to really read on, and most laptops are too bulky and don't have a great battery life. Fix those issues and you should be set classroom use.

    --
    If you didn't come to party don't bother knocking on my door. Prince '1999'
    1. Re:a tool for the wrong job by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

      netbooks have too small of a screen to really read on

      10.1" is too small to read on? I have read an entire book on my ipod touch with 3.5" screen, and I have awful vision.

    2. Re:a tool for the wrong job by bakawolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      and I have awful vision.

      Perhaps there's a reason for that.

    3. Re:a tool for the wrong job by EvanED · · Score: 2, Informative

      Depends on what you're reading. Many textbooks are formatted for paper that is not much smaller than 8 1/2 x 11. Grabbing a not atypically sized one (Dummit & Foote's Abstract Algebra) gives pages that are about 7.5x9.25 in, or about 12" in diagonal. Displaying that on a 10.1" screen gives almost a 15% reduction in magnification.

      For a more extreme example, take a typical CS conference paper. Printed on 8.5x11 paper (13.9" diagonal) in 10 or 11 pt font, two column format, reducing that to the size of 10.1" gives a 27% reduction in size. That 11 point font is now barely 8 points; if it's 10pt, then it now acts like 7.2pt. At LCD resolutions, that's starting to really impact readability IMO.

      Now sure, you can scroll and such, but this can be a huge PITA. It's a PITA if you're using a textbook with figures that you want to refer to; it's a PITA if you're reading something formatted in 2-column format because you have to scroll way more, etc.

    4. Re:a tool for the wrong job by rsborg · · Score: 1

      10.1" is too small to read on? I have read an entire book on my ipod touch with 3.5" screen, and I have awful vision.

      It's not about size, it's about resolution and usability. My one-year old netbook (which sadly only really worked well with XP) had a 1024x600 screen. This (height) is just unusable with stock XP (too much used by taskbar, menu, window titlebar and various toolbars). Other OSs looked much better (Ubuntu Netbook Remix was great, as was OSX) but drivers sucked so battery drained faster, trackpad didn't work well, etc. This turned me off netbooks completely.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
  19. Trial 3 by Bysshe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    1st trial: kindle (fail)
    2nd trial: ipad (will fail)
    3rd trial: pen & paper WIN

    --
    Read what I mean, not what I wrote.
    1. Re:Trial 3 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read what I mean, not what I wrote.

      What am I, a wizard? How about you just try to write what you mean?

    2. Re:Trial 3 by Bysshe · · Score: 1

      Because your puny language is unable to contain my awesomeness.

      --
      Read what I mean, not what I wrote.
  20. Refreshing to see that hardcopy isn't dead yet by Dex1331 · · Score: 0

    Even the younger generation of college kids still appreciate the tactile usability of that old tool we call a book. Somehow I find it refreshing or heartening to know that the younger generations aren't completely abandoning hardcopy. With society constantly being assaulted by technology I guess there is still hope when kids rather have a book in their hand instead of the new gadget...I'm sure it's just a matter of time though before that is no longer true.

  21. the dog is replaced by eshbums · · Score: 2, Funny

    Amazon ate my homework!

    1. Re:the dog is replaced by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      I think "The cloud deleted my homework!" sounds more plausible.

  22. Professors hate textbooks too by dward90 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Students aren't the only ones who find textbook prices monumentally absurd. Most of my professors no longer require a textbook. However, they are required by the University to specify a textbook, so every student who buys it before the first day of classes gets royally screwed.

    There also exist moronic profs who require you to buy the textbook, purchase a code for the online help, AND buy the study guide/homework guide, and then NEVER USE IT. I've found this in the English department more than once. These people need to be burned at the stake.

    --
    My other sig is clever.
    1. Re:Professors hate textbooks too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Textbooks are hated only by the profs who didn't write them - the profs who did write the textbooks are the reasons the costs are so high...

    2. Re:Professors hate textbooks too by confused+one · · Score: 1

      You missed the point. It's a university; they're not there to hold your hand. The study guide/homework guide is a study guide which you're supposed to use, on your own, following along within the context of your class discussion. Now, having said that I rarely bothered to purchase the study guide...

    3. Re:Professors hate textbooks too by fermion · · Score: 1
      What I learned to do after my undergrad degree with text books I had to buy but were not all that interested in was to buy the old edition online. For most purposes this seemed to work. Moronic profs can often be gotten around.

      That said, a good set of textbooks in your profession can be useful. I used many of my books to look stuff up years after I left school. Also, some textbooks are not so useless. The problem set are often worth the cost of the textbook for students who really want to learn the material.

      I often wonder what some of us are going to do between the time that ideas can no longer be sold at a reasonable profit and the brave new Star Trek universe makes money and all our current free market(nee capitalist) ideals irrelevant. I would say teaching, but increasingly people do not value and education, and the growth of charter schools means who you know will be more important to becoming a teacher than what you know or your ability to teach.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    4. Re:Professors hate textbooks too by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Well after all, education is a privilege for those people who are good enough to be rich. If you don't have thousands of dollars to throw in the trash, then you deserve to live in poverty.

    5. Re:Professors hate textbooks too by clickety6 · · Score: 1

      For our cosmology course, our recommended text was a book that was no longer in print and even when it was printed, the print run was extremely limited.

      The photocopier got a lot of use that year!

      --
      ----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
  23. It's too true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I bought a nook in the middle of last semester with the intention of lightening the burden of my bookbag. I found that (1) too few text/reference books are published in e-formats (PDF is not a viable substitute for a proper .epub or equivalent), (2) getting directly to a page or location was tedious, (3) flipping between pages was just plain impossible, and (4) the nook's screen (same as the original Kindle) is too small for the format of most text and reference books, which employ sidebars, illustrations, etc.

    The Kindle DX would, I imagine, alleviate exactly one of these concerns. The remaining three are deal-breakers.

    An iPad, on the other hand, costs more, is more fragile, weighs more, is heavier, and, though pretty, is shamed by the readability and versatility of e-ink.

    Meanwhile, school is over and the nook has reawakened my taste for recreational reading to the point that I'm devouring several books a week and every new book I hear of makes me think: I hope it's available as an eBook!

  24. I have the ideal solution! by kimvette · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I have the ideal solution for students, or for anyone who might want to enjoy reading a book and then sharing it with others when you're done, or if someone wanted to study a book and quickly switch back and forth between pages, highlight to your heart's content, and scribble notes between the lines or in the margins.

    There is this newfangled substance called "paper." If only books could possibly be "printed" on uniformly-cut "sheets" of this paper, and then "bound" together with glue and yarn, and perhaps be encased in a protective cardboard or lightweight wood or even plastic "covers." Then, you could turn the pages without having to fiddle with gestures or buttons, you don't need to worry about batteries, and since you OWN the book and cannot connect it online, no one can decide the book needs to be recalled and remotely delete it. Not only that, you can lend the book out to others, or even sell it when you no longer find any use or enjoyment from it. DRM would not stand in the way of exercising either Fair Use or your first sale rights.

    I know my idea seems somewhat quaint, but who knows - - it might just catch on!

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    1. Re:I have the ideal solution! by Adustust · · Score: 1

      While I agree with everything you said - the one thing that this magical "paper book" cannot do is contain 10,000 volumes of itself and retain the same meager size of 7 1/2” x 5” by .7” If it could do this, then it would be perfection indeed.

    2. Re:I have the ideal solution! by digitalhermit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I understand the sentiment. And yes, I love books. God, I love books. I have shelves and shelves of them and sometimes I consider them almost a literal (haha) barrier to stupidity. No kidding, but I think some people get scared when they see my books and fell uneasy standing amongst them. There is rarely any greater pleasure for me than to sit in my library and read.

      And yet eBooks are tempting. My love of gadgetry aside, the ability to large portions of my library with me at all times would be Nirvana. Years ago I used to carry around a Walkman. That device was the size of a large paperback book. Along with it I carried a case that held two or three cassette tapes. All told, I had about four hours of music with me. Of course, batteries didn't last quite four hours so you could expect about two hours of listening. That was barely enough to get me through History 101. Now I carry a thumb-sized iPod that holds 24 hours or so of music and 8-10 hour battery life. Imagine if books were the same way?

      But we can't.. Unlike the History of Art text I keep on my shelf and occasionally browse, I can't assume that a year from now it will still be accessible. The publisher may yank my "permission" to read it, or change the text, or remove it entirely. Sure, there will be free texts, but because we don't control the reader device we can't even be sure that our free documents will not one day be yanked. Maybe a publisher will claim some exclusive rights to publish Shakespeare's sonnets and suddenly my open version gets yanked. Seems far fetched and a corner case, but in the days when we would hover over the record button on our cassette players no one imagined that recording a song off the airwaves could be considered infringement.

      That's why I won't buy a Kindle.

    3. Re:I have the ideal solution! by Vaphell · · Score: 1
    4. Re:I have the ideal solution! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holy sh-t! That's some revolutionary stuff. Might it also be used as an integrated ballot delivery vehicle and persistent ballot history storage device in democratic elections?

      I envision that it could be combined with a distributed system of six-sided multi-ballot storage units, each of which would have an aperture on one of the six sides, specially designed to accept the delivery vehicles while at the same time being of the appropriate dimension to prevent manus-driven integrity breaches.

    5. Re:I have the ideal solution! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you're a tool.

    6. Re:I have the ideal solution! by kimvette · · Score: 1

      You have no sense of humor.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  25. The pilot programs are .. getting us .. feedback by Culture20 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "It seems we need to make the next Kindle large, with at least 20-50 flexible sheets of e-ink "paper", and a highlighter/pen wand that allows for easy e-ink marking. Soon we'll have the perfect format. Ten years after that, we'll lock it into a one-ebook to one-kindle setup so that we sell more kindles. Who wouldn't spend $400 per novel?"

  26. correction by Cobble · · Score: 1

    Correction: That's Seton Hill that will try the iPad, not Seton Hall, which is a different school.

  27. Re:Print was first, iPad Comes second, kindle last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    print is dead

    I know it is fashionable to try to be the first to pronounce something 'dead', especially if you are on the internet and can somehow credit the internet with killing it. But other than that, why do you think it is dead or even dying?

    Has consumption of writing paper decreased as computer use has increased? This says it hasn't. It also looks like printing and writing paper consumption is up, again.

    Paper has enormous advantages over digital for displaying information, particularly information that a person might need to annotate. The Kindle might have a ways to go to supplant the ipad for that application, but both have light years to go to pass pen and paper.

  28. The iPodization of Print is Failing by salesgeek · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Everyone is trying to create their own iPod/iTunes like market for eBooks. It's a silly strategy that has little future because books and multimedia are very different technologies.

    * The killer application is actually publishing your book as a computer file instead of inked on dead trees, not creating a device that is only remarkable in that it is compatible with your DRM scheme.
    * Finding ways to sell your books to the largest market possible should be the goal.
    * The only thing that differentiates and the sizes of the walled garden markets is the number of devices that are compatible with their DRM schemes.
    * DRM is defective by design for most eBooks as it can be defeated a touch typist with some time on their hands. Music and movies actually require a much higher level of skill to crack.

    It's like everyone missed Apple's secret weapon with iPod: $1 songs and $2 TV Shows - and tons of free podcasts. Pricing on eBooks, aside the occasional sale at O'Reiley is nuts.

    In short, book publishers need to rethink the need for walled gardens. They add little value, given that portable devices that can read open formats have existed since the 1980s, and the current crop of slates and ePaper devices are not much different than a regular computer anyway.

    --
    -- $G
    1. Re:The iPodization of Print is Failing by trilinear_nz · · Score: 1

      It's like everyone missed Apple's secret weapon with iPod: $1 songs and $2 TV Shows - and tons of free podcasts. Pricing on eBooks, aside the occasional sale at O'Reiley is nuts.

      Good point. Perhaps a model along these lines could work for certain books, say $X per-chapter for textbooks?

    2. Re:The iPodization of Print is Failing by Delusion_ · · Score: 1

      My requirements for entry are low: An SD slot (I'm not willing to budge here), ability to read most formats I can buy, or download content in, and access to an online store where ebooks are priced according to how much I value them; 50% or less than paperbacks, since there is no physical print and distribution system involved. It's the last part that each and every publisher's ebook reader not only fails, but fails proudly at.

    3. Re:The iPodization of Print is Failing by cdrguru · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You seem to be under the impression that 50% of the cost of a paperback book involves printing and distribution. Well, hardly.

      The cost of books is pretty much divided between the (re)seller and the publisher with a thin little sliver for the author. The publisher has the editorial and preparation costs which are pretty high, a well as the promotion and placement of the book. There is some profit there, but books aren't all that high-margin for the publisher.

      The seller tends to get a big chunk, as much as 30 percent because they have to stock the books.

      Printing? For a paperback book it is less than $1. Shipping? You put 50 books in a box and it costs $8 to ship across the country. That works out to about $0.16 a book.

      So when Amazon is selling a paperback book for $7.99 and the Kindle version is $4.99 that is a discount well below what the printing and distribution would have cost. With hardcover books at $24.99 and the Kindle version at $9.99 it is even a more significant difference. Today, I believe the publisher is eating most of this discount and Amazon is still making out very well on the books. There are a few they are making almost nothing on, but they are doing it to keep the Kindle supply chain stocked up.

      What is very interesting is the number of free books that Amazon is distributing for the Kindle. These cost them real money on a per-sale basis with both the server load and the wireless charges. But there are always 10-15 books that are free available and these aren't the public-domain ones.

    4. Re:The iPodization of Print is Failing by indiechild · · Score: 1

      Patience.

      You're assuming that ebooks will be encumbered by DRM forever. In a few years' time, once ebooks have proven their economic worth, giants like Apple will push book publishers to get rid of DRM. It'll be just like the iTunes music store all over again.

      Change will come. Slowly perhaps, but it will come.

    5. Re:The iPodization of Print is Failing by rabiddeity · · Score: 1

      I can understand that copy editing is a lot of work, and GOOD copy editing is somewhat expensive. But "preparation costs?" Complete horseshit. Typesetting is essentially free unless you need to make physical copies, and it's a job that should be done by the copy editor, not a separate engraver. This isn't the 20th century anymore.

      (Of course that particular free typesetter only creates a PDF or Postscript file. I'm sure the excessive DRM schemes and platform-specific obfuscation cost several million dollars to create and apply.)

      Promotion is a burden that's essentially already borne by Amazon et al. I can't remember the last time I saw an ad for a book anywhere. Where the hell does that advertising budget go? My guess is the publishers are mainly competing with each other for "prime estate" on the front page, but many people-- specifically college students-- are more interested in finding a specific book than whatever is being promoted most heavily. Even private purchasers are loath to pay $5 for a book they may not enjoy at all; most purchases are via word of mouth or because the reader enjoyed reading previous works by that author. The search infrastructure allowing specific purchases is already there, if immature. A Pandora-style associative advertising system probably isn't far off. I don't see where the publishers fit into either of these cases.

      So remind me again where the money is going, aside from lobbying against copyright reform?

    6. Re:The iPodization of Print is Failing by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      From Econ 101, you can divide costs into fixed and marginal. Fixed costs include things like editorial and preparation costs, which the publisher does for every single book they publish, and which don't scale with sales. Marginal costs include things like printing, binding, and shipping. What sets the optimum price of an item is the marginal cost and the demand curve relative to price. The only thing fixed costs do is determine what the profit or loss is.

      Therefore, fixed costs determine whether a publisher publishes a book or not, and if they're halfway intelligent have no effect on the price.

      Given that electronic editions have almost zero marginal cost, the right price for them is where total revenue is maximized. Consider a price and a number of sales you expect at that price. If you double the price, will more or less than half the number of people buy it? If more, raise the price. If you halve the price, will more or less than double the number of people buy it? If more, lower the price. (Fixing the price of something to avoid cutting into another form of sales you've got is a losing game.)

      Last I checked, books have less price elasticity than you might expect. People either want books or they don't, and the prices aren't so much that they're significantly affected. (Textbooks have almost no elasticity: either you need it and buy it, or you don't need it and you don't buy it.) I suspect the deep discounts Barnes & Noble offers on bestsellers is not so much to sell more overall, but to get people to come into the store. Therefore, for an eBook at half the price of the paperback, halving the price would probably not increase sales all that much, and that's why they don't get sold for less. (This is not necessarily true of technical books. If I could buy books on software cheap, and without worrying about physical storage, I'd buy many more than I do. However, my Nook is really bad with technical books, for all the reasons elsewhere in this discussion.)

      So, the reason why Kindle versions cost more than you might expect is that they're at somebody's idea of the right price to maximize revenue, and the reason some prices get dropped drastically is to get more people into buying Kindles (or Nooks, or...) and electronic books.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    7. Re:The iPodization of Print is Failing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shipping? You put 50 books in a box and it costs $8 to ship across the country. That works out to about $0.16 a book

      This part alone makes me think that your entire calculation is false. You completely ignore the cost of paying someone to put those books in the box, make the shipping label, etc. Not to mention the costs associated with maintaining the warehouse facilities at each step in the shipping process. The books won't just fly out of the printing press and ship themselves...

      The price of the book should be what people are willing to pay if the publishers want their format to be accepted widely. If it's too high then their investment will eventually be wasted. It may very well be that some of the participants in the chain may make less money per sale, be it the author, the editor, the publisher, or whoever. There's no guarantee in a free market for how much money you will make selling something.

      Unfortunately we tend to always go through this period when companies spend fortunes developing competing and incompatible formats and standards. If all books would work on all devices huge amounts could be saved and many more people might be tempted to start using eBooks, creating the market necessary to sustain profits. But that's just not the way we roll I'm afraid.

    8. Re:The iPodization of Print is Failing by Delusion_ · · Score: 1

      I shouldn't have used the word "since". To me, it's about value. I value an ebook less, it's less tangible, and in order to overcome that, the price has to be less to meet my criteria.

      I'm unwilling to pay more than 50% of a paperback's cost to have it in ebook. If some company can make that work as a business model, great, and if not, I don't see physical books going away any time soon.

  29. MS Courier by r_benchley · · Score: 1

    It's kind of a shame that Microsoft scrapped the Courier. Based on the demo videos I saw, it seems like it would have been a natural fit for something like this.

    1. Re:MS Courier by Brandee07 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They didn't scrap it, they never had a project in the first place. It was just a mockup to deny apple some mindshare.

  30. Re:Print was first, iPad Comes second, kindle last by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

    Essentially their criticism seem to boil down to:

    • No color. I'm not an expert in the field by any stretch, but my understanding is that "electronic paper" screens can do color, but it's cost prohibitive right now. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This is a fairly serious serious issue, that can't be easily resolved short of waiting for cost on the technology to come down.
    • No ability to "mark up" the books. No highlighting or margin notes. This is a pure software issue. The problem (it seems to me) probably relates to the DRM on the book somehow, but seems solvable. I know that these devices have pretty extensive bookmarking capability, so it shouldn't be that hard to implement some sort of note system.
    • Slow to page back and forth. Obviously a hardware/software issue. No idea how hard or easy to solve this would be (seems easy, but I'm not writing the code)
    • Lack of content. Many books students need simply aren't out for the devices.
    • Not much cheaper than regular textbooks. This, in my opinion, is the biggest turn off for e-book readers in general. Books are very expensive to publish and ship. There is clearly a significant material cost involved in their production, yet e-books (which lack these costs) are not significantly less expensive. I'm not thrilled about spending $200-300 for a reader so I can save 15-20% on book costs. Seems students aren't either. Especially given that text books tend to be *very* expensive to begin with.

    iPad/tabletPCs don't have the first issue, but they have a similar or related issue. They're simply difficult to read for long periods of time, and often very difficult to see in natural light situations (ie, studying outside on a sunny day). Otherwise they simply use software to emulate the functions of e-book readers. So they probably share most of the other faults of the readers.

    --
    I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
  31. Academic tool? by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Never even considered it one. To me its nice way to read e-books with out the usual eyestrain from a traditional LCD. Most of all that i have read have been stories, or 'tutorial' style tech books. Flipping around would be murder.

    Oh, i never wrote in my books in school, i had a notebook for taking notes.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  32. Old-timer here. Oh... wait... by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 4, Funny

    I know you young'uns probably don't remember this, but back in my day we had institutions called libraries. Libraries had these things called books. You could get any book without paying anything. If the book wasn't available at your local library, you could use inter-library loan. That was free, also.

    You could touch a book without smearing finger oil on a screen. There was no DRM; no one implied you were a criminal if you read someone else's book. If you wanted to have a copy of a page, you could photocopy it and write on the photocopy, actually write, with real ink.

    I know this will sound amazing, but you didn't have to have a device to read a book! You could just read it. Books didn't have batteries; there was nothing to charge; there was no battery to go bad and carry back to Apple for an expensive replacement. You could read a book outdoors; you didn't need to worry about the weak display of an Apple LCD screen.

    If you dropped a book, it would almost certainly not be damaged. There was no quirky, limited operating system that had to be updated. There was no file management. You just opened the book and started reading it.

    There was no early adopter status, with people going around implying they were socially superior to you because they had a device. You didn't need to worry about new versions of a device that did a little more, but just a little, because there would be an even newer version a few months after that. Books never became obsolete because someone stopped supporting an old file format.

    You didn't need electric power to read a book. You didn't need to worry about exploding batteries with their poisonous metals. There were no charge cords, or waiting for re-charging.

    There were so many books that thieves usually didn't steal them.

    You didn't have to pay the huge Jeff Bezos tax or the huge Steve Jobs tax; you didn't need to contribute to a billionaire only interested in having more billions.

    1. Re:Old-timer here. Oh... wait... by Matrix14 · · Score: 1

      There was no early adopter status, with people going around implying they were socially superior to you because they had a device.

      Oh, I bet the first holders of Gutenberg bibles acted incredibly superior to their friends.

    2. Re:Old-timer here. Oh... wait... by bsDaemon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      comparing a Gutenberg bible to a hand-crafted, illuminated art-work bible is like comparing a Model-T to a Bentley. there is nothing superior about it, beyond its significance in a historical sense that probably took at least a few decades to come into perspective. part of being special is being rare or limited in supply, if not completely unique.

    3. Re:Old-timer here. Oh... wait... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this where I make the joke about that not being about having the book, but based on religion instead? 'cause that's really played out lately. Besides, hand-illuminated texts were much greater status symbols due to the time involved in their creation.

    4. Re:Old-timer here. Oh... wait... by lena_10326 · · Score: 1

      And carrying 50lbs of books around all day was oh so much fun.

      By the way: Get off my lawn!

      --
      Camping on quad since 1996.
    5. Re:Old-timer here. Oh... wait... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must have a huge lawn.

    6. Re:Old-timer here. Oh... wait... by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      Hey there old-timer, perhaps no one has taken the time to explain to you folks why us "young ones" have abandoned the outdated and obsolete institutions called libraries. Libraries are always located in two locations: On Campus or too far from home. We will on occasion use the Library on Campus to do grab books pertaining to our studies. Don't get any illusions that we don't.

      Now the trend follows that Campus Libraries often lack in the field of fiction. It seems that elementary school libraries were loaded with fiction, and some students enjoyed that, but now-a-days you'd be hard pressed to find any fiction in school libraries. It's all reference material, or history textbooks.

      You can however - find fiction at your local public library, funded by your city. However, they are NOT free. There is usually an annual fee, if you are over the age of 14, and if you return the books later than scheduled, there is a fee. Now - these fines are usually pretty petty, and the library card costs is less than a book itself, but that combined with how inconvenient they are makes them a hassle. You can buy a library card, look for a book. There's only 1 copy in the city, and it's at a different library. You call the other library to have it ordered over, but its checked out. It's due in a week. You tell them to put it on hold. Ends up not being returned for a month.

      So not too long ago, computers started becoming more predominant for reading. You wouldn't have to leave your home, and you could acquire the book usually within an hour or two of searching. There was no price for it, save for the price for your internet connection.

      As the field of electronic reading grew, companies decided there was a market for these devices, and they started producing items like the Kindle. The Kindle attempts to bring you the same conveniences that electronic reading has brought us, without all the hassles of a desktop, as well as without all the hassles of the Library.

      I realize it may seems silly and backwards, but try to understand that some of grew past the library in the late 90's. We stopped going because we got better service for free. We couldn't read our book underneath a tree, but we never really liked the outdoors much anyways, prefering instead to stay in our parents basement (for an undisclosed period of time).

    7. Re:Old-timer here. Oh... wait... by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What kind of shitty places have you lived in that you had to pay to use public libraries? I've lived in several different counties of several different states, and I've never paid one cent just to have a library card and check out books.

      Further, since your complaint about campus libraries is their lack of fiction, you really want to set up the interwebs as better for that? Are you one of those guys that gets off to furry Harry Potter/Pokemon crossover fan-fics? Because other than really piss poor erotic fan fiction, the internet really sucks for fiction.

      The internet kicks ass, but real books have a very valid place in society and academia. This e-reader experiment proves that.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    8. Re:Old-timer here. Oh... wait... by NekSnappa · · Score: 1

      Lighten up Francis!

      --
      I want to shoot the messenger!
    9. Re:Old-timer here. Oh... wait... by clickety6 · · Score: 1

      Best of all, they grew on trees!

      --
      ----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
    10. Re:Old-timer here. Oh... wait... by Builder · · Score: 1

      Congratulations. I wish we could all have such a privileged life, but the sad fact is that for many of us, access to a decent library is a pipe dream.

    11. Re:Old-timer here. Oh... wait... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Next you're going to tell them to get off your lawn, aren't you?

    12. Re:Old-timer here. Oh... wait... by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      1) Canada

      2) Name one published piece of fiction that you are having trouble finding on the internet. There are torrents for them as much as there are for obscure movies and music files.

      3) I am not saying that books aren't good in Academia. I also reinforced that idea. But just as this study says that real books so far have no substitute in the field of academia, they also said more than 90% preferred the e-reader for personal reading. Surely that's a stronger indicator of the effectiveness of e-readers than 80% saying they don't like it for school.

    13. Re:Old-timer here. Oh... wait... by damien_kane · · Score: 1

      Aren't public libraries in your city/town funded by municipal taxes?
      I know where I grew up I could get a library card for free in my hometown, but would have to pay a fee if I wanted a card from the neighbouring city.
      Similarly here in Toronto, they have fees but if you show some sort of identification (license, bank statement) that shows your address is in Toronto, they waive the fee.
      Even if you're a renter, i.e. not paying property taxes, your landlord is paying property tax on the unit you live in, so it's covered.

    14. Re:Old-timer here. Oh... wait... by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      Surprisingly not. The only people who get Library Access for free are students.

    15. Re:Old-timer here. Oh... wait... by Omestes · · Score: 1

      Name one published piece of fiction that you are having trouble finding on the internet. There are torrents for them as much as there are for obscure movies and music fi

      Actually there are a ton of books I can't find online. There is a large subset of books I can't find on "valid" online bookstores, and an even larger (as in unbelievably massive) amount that I can't find on torrent/rapidshare-like sites.

      I just bought a Nook, and one of the first things I did was try to hunt down my current "to-read" pile of books in a digital format, peferably for free (I bought the physical book, so I have no problem with pirating them). I found VERY few of the books I own and want to read. Rick Moody does not exist in piracy circles, nor does Italo Calvino, nor does around 75% of my pile of books, these two authors are not obscure, the more obscure, or less American ones fair worse (Steve Aylett never exited, apparently).

      Ebooks suffer the same problem that DVDs did in the early days (and to a lesser extent still suffers from), that older material has not been copied over to the new format. There is a couple movies I love that have only turned into DVDs in the last year or so. Books are the same, and even worse because this is a new medium. Pretty much anything published more than 5 years ago, that is not wildly popular doesn't exist in an ebook format.

      Torrents are worse. Torrents are great for very popular things, but generally suck for strange and obscure things. Torrents are super for up-and-coming new releases, but perform abysmally for older things that last their patina of trendiness. Torrents, by their very nature, are about trendiness, and not breadth of content. They really suck for books, unless you only want new New York Times Bestsellers, and series with broad geek appeal.

      I also am a philosophy nut, and most of the books that aren't considered "classic" don't exist in an online format. I'm sure there would be some benefit in owning yet another copy of the complete works of Plato or Aristotle (which are free, and open), but an ebook can't compete with my old, ratty, self annotated, copies I used as an undergrad. For more modern books, your pretty much out of luck, and those that exist are a pain to read since you DO read technical book in a non-linear fashion. And most ebook readers are TERRIBLE at footnotes and endnotes. One of the last ones I read wouldn't allow me to page back to the page that contained the endnote, basically leaving me completely stranded at the end of the book, and needing to page 30-40 pages forward from the last chapter heading.

      Yes, some ebooks are formatted better than that. But all real books are, by nature, formatted in the optimal way, there isn't a choice in it.

      That said, I love my Nook for light reading, for those books where it can be used. But to claim that ebooks are perfect is rather naive. In the end the Nook will never replace my room full of books. And not just because I love the tactile feel of books, or have a strange Luddite tendency. Books, on the whole, are far better than their ebook equivalent.

      they also said more than 90% preferred the e-reader for personal reading. Surely that's a stronger indicator of the effectiveness of e-readers than 80% saying they don't like it for school.

      You misread. 90% said they "liked it" for personal reading, not prefered it over woodpulp books. As stated, I like (even love) my ebook reader, and enjoy reading on it, but I don't see it ever replacing my large physical library, for a variety of reasons, some of which I stated above.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
  33. Beating a dead horse by greymond · · Score: 1

    I've said this before, and I'm saying it again, eReaders really need to support PDF's and Word files a lot better than they currently do, especially if they want to get their devices into a college or have anything other than a black and white book novel read...

    It doesn't matter if it's a college text book, a role playing game manual, or any type of publication that uses complex images/tables/graphs/charts/etc you need a PDF or Office type of file (Word, Excel, PowerPoint) file and you need to view it well. The current ePub files don't display these types of content well and the Kindle just doesn't work well with PDFs right now and doesn't support other file types. Sony and Apple have some support but not complete by any means.

  34. They still need to fix math symbols by Tawnos · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Biggest issue I foresee with ebooks is that, currently, none of them handle math symbols correctly. Imagine trying to read an economics text or calculus text without proper mathematical formatting. If you can't, check out the Nook for an example of how it looks. Fractions, even at the biggest text size, are smaller than 1/8" and almost entirely unreadable. Sigma notation looks like gobbledygook.

    Until that is fixed, I don't see any school adopting ebooks, much less a technical one.

    1. Re:They still need to fix math symbols by djconrad · · Score: 1

      I'm a Classicist, and I don't care about math, but I sympathize with your point. Rumor is the Kindle doesn't display Greek well. This weekend I printed off 100 pages of mostly English articles and thought "this is ridiculous. I'll get a Kindle." But every page has Greek on it that can only be displayed well in PDF form (I've heard from Kindle owning friends). I also understand that PDFs don't allow the Kindle to do whatever nifty tricks it does. Until it supports Greek, I think I have to work with the dead trees.

  35. We still use textbooks in law school by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 1

    They call them "casebooks," and they're a combination of (1) commentary discussing the field a bit, and (2) cases which have been exerpted to make them say whatever the the casebook authors are trying to say. Their quality and honesty vary.

    --
    -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
  36. Re:Print was first, iPad Comes second, kindle last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ok, I'll say that I am over-zealous in saying "print is dead", however, I do think that this is a paradigm in the evolution of print. Although, the current trend of print is in hardback or paperback books, and e-books are an emerging market, I do think that at some point, print as we know it today, will not reflect how we come to know it in the future. I respect your opinion and thank you for the facts; I was merely making an observation on how these will supplement current methods of study; how they will be tools for students; and that this may very will be the beginning of the end for print. Consider this: How many periodicals have left traditional print for e-Print?

  37. What if... by scottwilkins · · Score: 0

    http://thefischbowl.blogspot.com/2006/09/what-if.html What the video near bottom or download the Power Point located here... (made by one of the "Shift Happens" guys.)

  38. The Kindle is too slow and DRM hurts by Kismet · · Score: 5, Informative

    On large books, it takes several seconds just to turn a page.

    It can take even longer to add a highlight, plus the additional annoyance of using the little joystick for navigating. A stylus would be great if it were possible to use it with this type of display. I notice the same slowness on the Kindle for PC software (even on a fast machine), but at least I can use the mouse there.

    The Kindle is terribly unresponsive for typing notes. It can't keep up with two slow thumbs on those awful little keys and you nave to pop open the symbol screen just to get a comma because there is no key for it (among many other common symbols).

    Worst of all is the DRM. The Kindle saves each highlight to a plain text clippings file which might have been useful for study notes. About one third of the way through a very large (and expensive) ebook, I found that my clippings file was full of messages stating that I had exceeded my limit for clippings for that book. I guess they put some limit in there in order to prevent people from using highlights to extract the whole book into the clippings text file, thereby defeating DRM. What it really prevents is legitimate study. Due to this stupid technical deficiency, I should have been noting these passages by hand in a notebook. But the Kindle didn't warn me that this limitation existed, nor did it stop me when I reached it.

    The Kindle hardware is an interesting novelty and I see potential in the technology, but it is not good for serious reading or for study. It's too slow and the DRM puts me back in the age of pencil and paper anyway, so why bother? Picking up the actual book is more efficient and convenient than using the Kindle.

    1. Re:The Kindle is too slow and DRM hurts by indiechild · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Agreed, the extreme sluggishness of the Kindle 2 user interface is the first thing I noticed when I bought mine.

  39. Failed? by adiposity · · Score: 1

    But if Amazon also hoped the Kindle DX would become the next iPhone or iPod on campuses, it failed its first test. At the University of Virginia, as many as 80% of MBA students who participated in Amazon's pilot program said they would not recommend the Kindle DX as a classroom study aid (though more than 90 percent liked it for pleasure reading).

    Because the iPhone was recommended as a study aid? Being the "next iPhone" does not mean it has to be recommended for study. Duh.

  40. Re:Print was first, iPad Comes second, kindle last by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

    Slow refresh is a trait of e-ink. It will take many more years for it to be fast enough. A search feature would make this less of an issue.

  41. Re:Print was first, iPad Comes second, kindle last by MoriaOrc · · Score: 1
    Just a few minor corrections for you:

    No ability to "mark up" the books.

    It isn't that the Kindle has no ability to mark-up pages, but the ability is somewhat limited compared to "scribbling in the margins". Basically, you can put in what amounts to an in-line footnote at any point in the text and you can highlight (actually, underline) passages. Also, as far as I know these features aren't restricted in DRM-enabled books from the Amazon store.

    Slow to page back and forth.

    Most likely because of the slow refresh times of e-ink screens, so mostly a hardware issue.

  42. If you hoped for a post from me, you got it by noidentity · · Score: 1

    If you hoped that I'd give my opinion about the article, you'll be pleased. If you hoped that I was annoyed by the writing style, you'll be pleased again.

  43. fix a few of the problems and e-texts win by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yep, the students are right to complain about kindle's primitive navigational aids -- as a kindle-using reader of non-fiction I'm not at all surprised.

    But it's also inevitable that student use-case feedback will make its way into future e-reader UIs. Particularly with large touch-screen models, it should be easy to have multiple bookmarks and chapter tabs visible on screen for instant access.

    E-readers won't have *all* the advantages of paper books, but with a few fixes plus their own advantages (hyperlinks, dictionary, search, weight, cost, backup, sharing of notes, etc.) e-books will win, no doubt.

    1. Re:fix a few of the problems and e-texts win by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      Ebooks will win when an entire generation grows up on them. Like all things, using a digital device is only going to feel natural when you've been doing nothing but your entire life. It's part of why I like the whole leap-pad concept for kids. Yes, actual real-world 3D spatial skills development is important, but that's one of those things we get almost instinctually at birth - the first thing we do after screaming our heads off is reach for a nipple.

  44. crappy hatchet-job article by brianfromoregon · · Score: 1

    Ed Lazowska (UWCSE professor quoted in the article) says this is "a crappy hatchet-job article where the reporter had an agenda and ignored counterbalancing input", and Franzi Roesner (also from the article) agrees.

  45. Poor Engineering Communication with Management by bezenek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It is disappointing to see Amazon finding out only now that engineers will want to scribble on pages, highlight items, need color, etc.

    Amazon employs hundreds if not thousands of engineers, most if not all of which could have told senior executives this.

    Unfortunately, many companies in Silicon Valley are being run by executives who have forgotten their companies were built by engineers, and consulting with them once in a while might be useful.

    This is not meant to be flame-bait. It is from personal experience and the experiences of other engineers, e.g., Bob Colwell and the inability of Intel to acknowledge the failure of the Itanium processor line before it wasted billions of dollars and several years of engineering time (read Bob's book The Pentium Chronicles for more detail.)

    -Todd

    --
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico.
  46. heh,...too expensive by novar21 · · Score: 1

    Netbooks are way cheaper and more versatile. Ipads might make the versatile category, still too expensive. Remember these are college kids. Their money priorities are elsewhere. Give them cheap college text and a versatile machine (plays tunes and movies) and you will have a seller. They need an atom or similar processor with touch color screen and sound with 16 gb storage maybe via sd card. Something really cheap ...250 max. Netbook works great for my daughter. Has a cam and she records the lectures. All using Linux. Uses that to review before exams. Wife has a Kindle. She loves her novels, and its great for her. Daughter, not so much.

  47. As a Grad Student/Developer I want... by cervo · · Score: 1

    I'm interested in an e-reader for textbooks because I have collected many from Undergrad and now Grad (Masters) that I am holding onto and they take up space. I don't highlight/fold my books because it drives me crazy when the book is damaged. Right now I like the Kindle e-ink technology for reading, it seems easier on my eyes than an LCD (I have used my dad's Kindle). I don't like the iPad that much, I have used it in the apple store but I don't like the iBook reading experience. Also I understand publishers are planning to make their own apps for some titles to help formatting.

    What I want is a kindle with color (it doesn't need to be magazine quality) because text books have color diagrams/charts where the color is required for the understanding. At the very lease I need newspaper/textbook style color. Also I do need mathematical formulas as well because I do have Calculus Books (which I never use but want to hold onto anyway) and Discrete Math Books (once in a while...). For a text book the kindle screen (not the DX) is too small. I want to at least be able to see a full text book page with the images/text.

    I haven't tried annotations/searching. But it's not a killer. Usually with computer science I know what I'm looking for and I can tell based on the chapter headings. So going to the table of contents to find the chapter and turning a few pages is no problem. I am anal about my books. If I buy a book and there is a mark/line/folded/ripped page/dent on the cover when I buy it, I will return it and get another one. It drives me crazy when I tear pages (which sometimes happen when flipping them). The Kindle would be great because I wouldn't have to worry about a damaged book. and the annotations might let me annotate whereas I would never do that to a physical book.

    But it would hurt to not have the the physical book because sometimes I do remember content by its position in the book. But phrase search might be okay since I may be able to remember a phrase to find a page. Also if you could search on a topic and have it return references to multiple books in your collection so you could cross reference the material that would be cool.

    The other thing I want the kindle for besides text books is programming books. It would be great to be able to select/copy/paste/e-mail the source code examples instead of typing them or fumbling with a website/cd. I would definitely buy all the reference books for the Programming Languages I use (ie Bjarne's C++, K+R C, The Camel Book) and definitely buy Code Complete. Many books are excellent references and it would be great to have them all searchable in one place.

    As a Grad student, some of my classes are based on ACM papers. And if I was to pursue a PhD, I would be reading hundreds of papers. Whatever device a PhD students has would need to be able to read the scientific journal for that field. Ie ACM seems to publish many of the interesting Computer Science papers (I know not technically a journal), but I would need an e-reader to link with their digital library if it was going to be super useful to me were I going for a PhD. I had one class this semester where it was about 25 papers and no textbook (all from the ACM).

    As a professional programmer, I need the various how to guides/tutorials for specific technologies/languages, programming language references, and the occasional textbook (especially algorithms).

  48. This is a downside? by Cederic · · Score: 2, Funny

    students complained they couldn't scribble notes in the margins, easily highlight passages

    Good. It's a book. Stop defacing it.

    Bloody vandals.

    Nothing worse than buying a second-hand textbook and finding out the fuckwit that owned it before you has destroyed it through inept, irrelevant and inaccurate highlighting and notes.

    And no, buying new isn't an option when you're a student with all your income going on accommodation, food and condoms.

  49. Aiming to be a "textbook device" is mistake #1. by Atryn · · Score: 1

    Wow, I came to this conclusion within minutes of owning a Kindle DX and I strongly suspected it before it even arrived. Yes, textbook models are largely becoming obsolete. Only crazy ppl in California think that every student just needs pdfs of the textbooks for e-learning. sigh...

    On a related note, check out the Entourage Edge concept. I don't know that they've got everything right yet, but this is on a better track than the Kindle DX.

    Here is an excellent blog post by Qualcomm's VP of Education Technology on the 21st century textbook.

    --
    Come play Moral Decay!
    1. Re:Aiming to be a "textbook device" is mistake #1. by mysidia · · Score: 1

      That's interesting... but unfortunate. I'd want an eReader/Netbook on both sides.

      Meaning, the ability to dynamically switch either side from eReader/Netbook at any moment, or have both sides eReader at once with different pages side by side on each half...

    2. Re:Aiming to be a "textbook device" is mistake #1. by Atryn · · Score: 1

      the ability to dynamically switch either side from eReader/Netbook at any moment

      Ummm... That would be physically impossible with e-ink, AFAIK... You could certainly do that with a dual-screen tablet and an app for your e-reader, but you cannot switch between physical display technologies on the fly. e-ink provides a completely different platform than a tablet much more suited to reading.

      --
      Come play Moral Decay!
  50. taking notes.... by bolthole · · Score: 1

    complained they couldn't scribble notes in the margins, easily highlight passages

    but... but.. I read stuff on "iKindle" on my iPhone, and I can easily highlight passages, and put notes in it... how is it that a "real" kindle makes it more difficult to do these things?!?!?

  51. Re:"spatial memory" and electronic devices by Helen+O'Boyle · · Score: 1

    The parent makes an interesting point -- that searching is done on electronic devices by text, but not all of our memory cues which aid in searching are textual. I am absolutely sure that arrangement of information on a page, the presence or absense of a particular graphic, or the color of text (or, my highlighting of it :-) were all factors in how I remembered information when I was in academia and had to study for exams. And I made a bit of pocket money selling my color-highlighted and carefully indented/organized study sheets to other students studying for the same exams, too, so I wasn't the only one who found visual presentation useful. In the case of color, that entire aspect of visual presentation is missing on some electronic readers including the Kindle, thereby giving me one less memory aid.

  52. Re:Odd choice... not really. by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

    So you mean they chose MBA students to test the applicability of a device for students' use? They should have considered using real graduate students instead. As a grad student myself, I can say that the only way I would consider a kindle or ipad for my own use is if someone gave it to me for free...

    It doesn't matter if it were MBA students or MS/Ph.d EE students since they were testing for usability in the classroom. Probably the study originally focused on MBAs hoping that a positive mark would lead to adoption as a (future) corporate tool.

    I sadly reached the same conclusion after buying my Kindle 2 last year. It is excellent for pleasure reading, but horrible for studying. When studying you need to fast-flip through the book, and when doing research, you need to scan dozens of pages at a time to get a sense of structure before zooming in into key areas. None of that is possible with the Kindle.

    Let's just say that, given I do very little pleasure reading, but a lot of technical reading, studying and researching (combined with its sub-par support for PDF documents), my Kindle 2 has been the worst investment I've ever made in electronics. I don't think I've ever bought anything that proved to be so useless for the task I intended to use (partly my fault for not doing enough research on this thing.)

    In fact, based on my experience with the Kindle ergonomics, it cannot be done with a keypad. You need to go full touch screen with the ability to flip pages as fast as possible... AND (unlike the kindle) with the ability to see really large chunks of text (as close as possible with the original printed versions.)

    The iPad (or something similar to it) would pave the way to electronic readers with the ergonomics necessary for studying and researching. The Kindle is really good for pleasure reading, it is really nice. But that's it. And I cannot imagine anyone wanting to pay $489 for it considering that for a few more bucks you can get an iPad (which with its touch screen could prove more suitable for the type of text reading and scanning required for studying and researching.)

    I mean, really, I could understand in 2009, but now, who would in his/her right mind pay that much for a Kindle? Amazon is pretty much stuck with spoiled goods on this one.

  53. Wait a minute by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    MBA students know how to read?

  54. So am I the only one by mdarksbane · · Score: 1

    Who never highlighted or made margin notes in any of my books in college? I never saw the point, really, if I was going to study pieces of a chapter I'd go download the professor's lecture notes... I don't even really remember having the book open during class - I just brought it in case someone started referencing a problem or a diagram. In any case, it's always felt weird to me to mark up a book...

    Still sounds like the kindle would suck as a textbook for many things just because of the lack of color and the slowness of page changes, but personally the other "issues" wouldn't affect me at all.

  55. Amazon, fix your problem with publishers first by GuerreroDelInterfaz · · Score: 1

    It's no use to try to promote the Kindle when its main problem lies with the publishers.

    First e-books more expensive than their dead-tree version: stupid, unecological and greedy. Then the @#$%& "region" problem: depending on where you live, especially outside the Empire, lots of books may not be available to buy so the only option is, as usual, "piracy".

    It seems that the books publisher want to make all the mistakes that the music and film publishers made before them.

    --
    El Guerrero del Interfaz

  56. Nothing currently beats Bluebeam and Onenote by adamgolding · · Score: 1

    Both the Kindle and the iPad are a joke when it comes to academic work. At the very least, they need to duplicate the kind of functionality you can get from bluebeam and onenote running on a convertible tablet PC:

    - freehand inking on pdfs
    - the ability to TYPE pop-up notes
    - audio recordings you can sync with notes a la onenote
    - hotkeys for various highlighter colors (I use a 9-color system which would be impractical with physical highlighters)
    - hierarchical bookmarks allowing you to make clickable outlines of an articlegreat for reviewing! (ideally they would improve this by making a more freely formatted 'notes' pane that can be hyperlinked to the bookideally with audio support like onenote's)
    - insert lined paper into a book (i.e. for doing math problems in a math textbook)
    - the ability to very quickly pull up paper for rough work (i.e. win+N for onenote)
    - something like zotero for unified management of pdf and html references (i.e not mendely)

  57. The iPad fails too by SilverJets · · Score: 1

    The iPad fails as a student device as well. Apple could have cornered the student market by adding handwriting recognition to the iPad and offering a one stop device for reading books and taking notes. Instead there are rumours about adding a camera to the next gen iPad. What the hell is with the current trend of sticking a crappy camera in every freaking device?

  58. Technologically... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kindle sucks!

    Look, there is only one unique thing about Kindle. It is proprietary to Aamazon and is the only thing that recognizes Amazon's proprietary format. That only recommends it to Amazon; not Amazon's customers. Kindle is 1980's technology in a 2010 world. They fed it to college students who grew up with tech and asked for their opinion? Hahaha

    At $489, Kindle costs as much as an iPad. And how does it compare technically with the iPad? Hahahaha

    Now, add the kind of draconian control techniques that Amazon demonstrated with '1984'. Hahahahahahahaha

    But if Amazon also hoped the Kindle DX would become the next iPhone or iPod on campuses... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
     

  59. I'm thankful for the efforts of Andrew Carnegie. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    I understand and agree. Every day, literally every day, I'm thankful for the efforts of Andrew Carnegie, who funded about 3,000 libraries. Having a library began to be considered necessary for any self-respecting town.